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conn-man
December 07, 2010, 12:25 AM
This one is interesting to me.

Ishida is wearing the quincy glove so he has access to final form. I think those FF arrows would go right through ulquiorra.

And ulquiorra can use anything including segunga. Probably faster but Ishida looks like he could hang. Oscuras will be dangerous to.

Fight is on top of los noches.

Edit: didn't feel like a poll was necessary.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 12:35 AM
Mayuri could dodge those arrows, Ulquiorra runs circles around them. SS Ishida doesn't stand a chance.

Now were it HM arc Ishida with all his 1200 simultaneous shot glory, his spirit chainsaw blade, and with full access to final form without any sort of time limit, THEN we could talk of a much closer match.

The Newbie.
December 07, 2010, 12:38 AM
I'd say Ishida, because the final Quincy form is the closest thing to the final Getsuga, you know, becoming the strongest thing in the world for a few seconds.
What the FQF does is eat everything made of spiritrons, so theorically, Ulquiorra's Lightning Lance wouldn't affect so much, and Ishida's speed and strength rises exponentially, being capable of defeating a captain without a problem.

exacta
December 07, 2010, 12:54 AM
Mayuri could dodge those arrows, Ulquiorra runs circles around them. SS Ishida doesn't stand a chance.

Now were it HM arc Ishida with all his 1200 simultaneous shot glory, his spirit chainsaw blade, and with full access to final form without any sort of time limit, THEN we could talk of a much closer match.

Mayuri dodged those FF arrows??? You mean the arrows that ripped off his left arm, then ripped all the way through Mayuri's Bankai while simultaneously creating a hole in his chest the size of a birthday cake and completely messing up the corridor they were fighting in?? Yeah, Ishida's totally boned lol.

I'm not entirely sure who would win, but it would definitely be a tough call. Ishida would absolutely have to use the Final Form to fight with Ulquiorra though. At any rate, Ishida's speed was pretty crazy, and his arrows were quite deadly. I hope Kubo lets us see a Quincy Final Form again someday.

If Ishida can break down Lanze Del Relampago, then I'd give it to him hands down. Would he be able to break down a cero too?

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:01 AM
I was quick to think Ishida, but if they're in HM, that means Ulq gets a natural power boost.

Kinda tough to decide, but like someone said, it's like the Quincy's FGT. It went clean through and split in half a massive Bankai and blew a hole in a captain level Shinigami in a single shot.

I'll say Ishida would win most of the time, although there's only really one short fight to base it on, it's just one of those ultimate forms that's likely to trump a lot of things. Pretty much purely opinion, but damn, that thing undoubtedly packed a LOT of power.

conn-man
December 07, 2010, 01:02 AM
Mayuri could dodge those arrows, Ulquiorra runs circles around them. SS Ishida doesn't stand a chance.

Now were it HM arc Ishida with all his 1200 simultaneous shot glory, his spirit chainsaw blade, and with full access to final form without any sort of time limit, THEN we could talk of a much closer match.

Ishida is a tactician, he could find a way to get an arrow in there somewhere. One to the body is a sure win since ulq cant regenerate organs.

And it has to be to be SS for the glove, I don't want to make things confusing. Plus I Dont think he was to much slower in SS than HM, its obvious he was but not by much.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:03 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-9/bleach/chapter-125.html

Mayuri could dodge it. Not reliably mind you, as he does get hit with the following shot, but he still could. And combat wise Mayuri blows hard. He gets by with pure godmodding. Ulquiorra, much as I downplay him, is fast, no denying that. Not as impressive as most like to think, but still significantly better than Mayuri. Ishida's going to be hard put to hit him, at all.

Now give him his HM Upgrades including the 1200 shots, and THEN he has much better odds. Granted it gets more arbitrary at that point, but still one bow at a time for a maximum of three shots before the form is blown is not going to cut it.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:05 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-9/bleach/chapter-125.html

Mayuri could dodge it. Not reliably mind you, as he does get hit with the following shot, but he still could.

Top of the page: "I can barely dodge it"

Bottom of the page: "Shit, never mind"


Two pages later, the one after the massive explosion, Ishida makes it clear that he wasn't even trying to kill him. So you could argue that HAD he been going for a kill, there would have been no dodge in the first place.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:09 AM
He left a massive hole in Mayuri's gut, I think he was going for a kill.

Granted I don't deny the power was down, he outright says as much about the second shot, but if it's still in a range where someone like Mayuri can dodge even with that it's not all that impressive. Not to the level that it needs to be to nail someone like Ulquiorra in his higher states.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:10 AM
He left a massive hole in Mayuri's gut, I think he was going for a kill.

Granted I don't deny the power was down, he outright says as much about the second shot, but if it's still in a range where someone like Mayuri can dodge even with that it's not all that impressive. Not to the level that it needs to be to nail someone like Ulquiorra in his higher states.

No no, I said a few pages later. He wants Mayuri to apologize and says he'll spare him.

There's no denying he was trying to kill him with the chest shot, when Nemu thanks him for not hitting his head, he said he was trying to kill him but missed.

Basically, the first shot that wasn't intended to kill was dodged, the second purposely didn't kill him, and the 3rd was intending to, and would have killed anyone but someone who can turn themselves into water :P

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:15 AM
I acknowledge that much, but he still took an arm with his second shot. The first shot was definitely a feint, but if he could have hit with it which he does with the second shot anyway for a rather nasty wound, why use a feint at all?

Which is basically the jist of my point, Mayuri with ample time to prepare a reaction and enough distance with no massive baby caterpillar blocking his view could dodge a shot. And physically the dude's not that impressive. Ulquiorra, who is a a lot of ways, should have little trouble by comparison.

ninjabot
December 07, 2010, 01:24 AM
We're using Ishida's feat against Mayuri as proof as to his potential standing against Uquiorra? Segunda Etappa Ulquiorra?

Might I ask why?

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:27 AM
I acknowledge that much, but he still took an arm with his second shot. The first shot was definitely a feint, but if he could have hit with it which he does with the second shot anyway for a rather nasty wound, why use a feint at all?

Which is basically the jist of my point, Mayuri with ample time to prepare a reaction and enough distance with no massive baby caterpillar blocking his view could dodge a shot. And physically the dude's not that impressive. Ulquiorra, who is a a lot of ways, should have little trouble by comparison.

True, but applying logic in a couple panels that's trying to showcase a power we'll likely never see again is kind of loose evidence.

From what I can tell, it was a shot meant to miss. The reason being is that the arrow was going for Mayuri's face, why would he start off with a potentially lethal shot when he makes it clear he wanted to show some mercy? Although maybe I'm making the same logic mistake I thought you did.

Okay, so assuming it was intended to kill, then yes, Mayuri is barely able to dodge it. Thing is, how much do we know about him? He's physically modified himself so much, it wouldn't surprise me if his reflexes are top notch. I think people have the idea in their head that he's physically weak just because he's the scientist captain, but so was Urahara. Do we have any proof that Mayuri isn't captain level in the physical department? I'm seriously asking, I don't know much about the guy :darn
[hr]

We're using Ishida's feat against Mayuri as proof as to his potential standing against Uquiorra? Segunda Etappa Ulquiorra?

Might I ask why?

Well for one, it's the only time we've seen the gloves come off (pun intended) from Ishida. Two, Mayuri is still a captain, and a captain with only Shikai (albeit a hax Shikai) trashed #1.

Jackk
December 07, 2010, 01:35 AM
Even if Ishida used a feint on his first shot against Mayuri, it doesn't necessarily mean that he really needed it.

Like Takahashi said, Ishida made it very clear that he was seriously holding back on those first two shots. Heck, he could still even fire with X3 more power.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-11/bleach/chapter-125.html

And seriously, destroying a massive bankai as well as the user of said Bankai, with just one single quincy arrow? That's seriously overpowered.


I was quick to think Ishida, but if they're in HM, that means Ulq gets a natural power boost.


Perhaps, but due to the fact that Hueco Mundo actually has a high level of spirit particles in the atmosphere, Ishida can actually utilize his powers much better in Hueco mundo than in human world or Soul Society. And considering how well his final quincy form absorbed spirit particles in Soul society, imagine what it would do in Hueco Mundo...

http://www.mangareader.net/94-699-15/bleach/chapter-245.html

I think Ishida wins this fight.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:38 AM
Even if Ishida used a feint on his first shot against Mayuri, it doesn't necessarily mean that he really needed it.

Like Takahashi said, Ishida made it very clear that he was seriously holding back on those first two shots. Heck, he could still even fire with X3 more power.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-11/bleach/chapter-125.html

And seriously, destroying a massive bankai as well as the user of said Bankai, with just one single quincy arrow? That's seriously overpowered.



Perhaps, but due to the fact that Hueco Mundo actually has a high level of spirit particles in the atmosphere, Ishida can actually utilize his powers much better in Hueco mundo than in human world or Soul Society. And considering how well his final quincy form absorbed spirit particles in Soul society, imagine what it would do in Hueco Mundo...

http://www.mangareader.net/94-699-15/bleach/chapter-245.html

I think Ishida wins this fight.

Good point, I'd forgotten about how much that wing? absorbed in SS. It's funny, the Quincies have these abilities that could trash Hollows and Shinigami, but we've just never seen them displayed properly (come on Ryuken!)

And it should also be noted that a shot 3 times more powerful would also be much faster as well.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:47 AM
Okay, so assuming it was intended to kill, then yes, Mayuri is barely able to dodge it. Thing is, how much do we know about him? He's physically modified himself so much, it wouldn't surprise me if his reflexes are top notch. I think people have the idea in their head that he's physically weak just because he's the scientist captain, but so was Urahara. Do we have any proof that Mayuri isn't captain level in the physical department? I'm seriously asking, I don't know much about the guy
His physical stats are atrocious, he gets by with Intelligence and Kido. Speed isn't his forte, he's actually ranked lowest among the captains in that regard.

That being said I'm not saying the blow was meant to kill, I'm saying why use a feint if you're going for a serious wound anyway. Again, Mayuri's arm is gone after that. Particularly if you could just as easily hit with the first shot and be done with it if he's capable of it. Granted there's shonen logic to be applied here, and maybe it was written like that because it was cooler (though frankly firing shot so fast Mayuri couldn't even react at all would have been cooler still, but then again there's a lot of stock scenes to pull from) but by basic point is still that he can miss someone like Mayuri, and Ulquiorra's clearly far above that at least.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:53 AM
His physical stats are atrocious, he gets by with Intelligence and Kido. Speed isn't his forte, he's actually ranked lowest among the captains in that regard.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'd always assumed that people just figured the scientist would suck at fighting.


That being said I'm not saying the blow was meant to kill, I'm saying why use a feint if you're going for a serious wound anyway. Again, Mayuri's arm is gone after that. Particularly if you could just as easily hit with the first shot and be done with it if he's capable of it. Granted there's shonen logic to be applied here, and maybe it was written like that because it was cooler (though frankly firing shot so fast Mayuri couldn't even react at all would have been cooler still, but then again there's a lot of stock scenes to pull from) but by basic point is still that he can miss someone like Mayuri, and Ulquiorra's clearly far above that at least.

Fair enough, Ulq is certainly fast, and his second release likely upped that pretty significantly. But like was said, he could have gone for a shot 3 times more powerful, and I think it's safe to assume that a shot 3 times more powerful would also be much faster as well. Also, being in HM, where Ishida himself said he could absorb a lot more spirit particles, wouldn't his physical stats and his energy in general be much higher as well?

So if we saw a more powerful, and faster Ishida, with better arrows flying around, I'd bet on Ishida.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:56 AM
I'd bet on Ishida too if he could secure a hit. Problem is it's all of one arrow and he had at best three shots with it (The more powerful one, ie: The one that actually might hit, broke his bow, pouring more power into that isn't going to help). That's not going to cut it.

What he needs is more time, more uses, or at the very least his 1200 simultaneous shots. They don't even have to be as powerful as the one shot, just let it rip with arrows that can at least damage him a little and he's set with that massive spread.

Jackk
December 07, 2010, 02:01 AM
Well not only was Ishida showing him mercy and clearly holding back, but it's also worth noting that regarding the "I didn't kill him in the end because I actually missed his head" ...Ishida still hit his enemy in a place that would have killed anyone without the ability to liquefy and flee.

One single shot like that on ulquiorra, and he's done. Ulquiorra outright stated that he can't regenerate his internal organs. And if you really want to talk about someone really missing his target... Ulquiorra is the prime example of someone actually missing his target completely with his lanza del relampago... so yeah.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 02:14 AM
Ulquiorra is the prime example of someone actually missing his target completely with his lanza del relampago... so yeah.

Not many people can whiff their most powerful attack on a stationary opponent :amuse

But Random, did Ishida's bow really break from that shot? Something I never really noticed. I recall some blood, but I thought that was from the giant baby exploding in front of him, not his bow snapping.

If the 3 times more powerful shot indeed exhausts him that badly, then I may have to rethink things.

Agh, I hate these "if this person can hit with this attack they win, but if they don't they lose" topics, makes things too hard to argue.

DEATHBOTT
December 07, 2010, 02:26 AM
i think ishida could secure a draw. damage ulq fatally but as we have seen ulq can continue figting after such damage which i think would spell doom for ishida.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 02:36 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-4/bleach/chapter-126.html

Note the string drifting to the side with nothing connecting it, and the lack of the bottom half of the bow. The thing's completely in-usable.

Jackk
December 07, 2010, 03:13 AM
I don't know... I don't want to underestimate Ulquiorra, but Ishida in his final form has complete dominance over spiritrons, and at alarmingly fast rate.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-6/bleach/chapter-125.html

Yet Ishida is even more powerful in Hueco mundo than he is in Soul society. Remember that quincys get more powerful by using the spirit particles from the surrounding and the atmosphere, and Hueco mundo has the highest concentration of spirit particles in its atmosphere (http://www.mangareader.net/94-699-15/bleach/chapter-245.html), which allows Ishida to utilize his powers much better than in Soul society. I think his overall power would be much higher there, and by that I don't mean just fire power, I think the speed of the shots/arrows too.

Also, not just his arrows, Ishida himself in final quincy form while in Hueco mundo should be much faster too... due to the fact that his version of shunpo, which is "Hirenkyaku" actually also works with spiritrons by gathering them under his feet and using them to achieve high speed movement.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-697-16/bleach/chapter-243.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-576-10/bleach/chapter-122.html

Higher concentration of spirit particles in Hueco mundo's atmosphere and complete dominance over them at an incredible rate while in his Final quincy form... and I bet Ishida is not only going to be powerful but also pretty damn fast too! lol


http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-4/bleach/chapter-126.html

Note the string drifting to the side with nothing connecting it, and the lack of the bottom half of the bow. The thing's completely in-usable.

I'm not sure about it being completely unusable at that exact point though... (you meant "unusable" right?)

Just 2 pages after that, it looks as if he's going to use his bow and arrow again. Here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-6/bleach/chapter-126.html (buttom left panel, with his right arm extended in position etc. only that he then realized that it was pointless as he wasn't going to be able to harm Mayori at that point anymore, due to him being liquid)

Then in the next page we see him putting down his right arm, which was the one holding the bow. We also see him coughing blood at that point, and he notices that it's the poison taking effect on him. http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-7/bleach/chapter-126.html

We also see that his power only started going away when he was already gone from the battle field, and on his way to the tower where Rukia was. http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-12/bleach/chapter-126.html (granted he doesn't have his bow at this point though)

Random101
December 07, 2010, 03:42 AM
What was he going to do, throw it at him? Once the string's broken a weapon like that is already pretty screwed over, the rest of it being broken off kinda seals the deal. Any attack he could possibly have done at that point would have either not worked, or been significantly weaker anyway given he burned the wing out already. At that point the dude was running on fumes, though granted he was still able to pull off the puppet trick.

EnvyOS
December 07, 2010, 04:31 AM
Well not only was Ishida showing him mercy and clearly holding back, but it's also worth noting that regarding the "I didn't kill him in the end because I actually missed his head" ...Ishida still hit his enemy in a place that would have killed anyone without the ability to liquefy and flee.

One single shot like that on ulquiorra, and he's done. Ulquiorra outright stated that he can't regenerate his internal organs. And if you really want to talk about someone really missing his target... Ulquiorra is the prime example of someone actually missing his target completely with his lanza del relampago... so yeah.

From the wording of Ulquiorra that was the first time he ever threw the lance.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-364-page-11.html
"...I missed, huh."
"Using that thing isn't easy after all..."

He was also aiming for his head. Unless of course his aim is that bad lol.

Note* If you've ever tried throwing a Javelin it's nothing like throwing a baseball or anything. Aiming is extremely hard.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 09:50 AM
Note* If you've ever tried throwing a Javelin it's nothing like throwing a baseball or anything. Aiming is extremely hard.

This is Bleach...

This guy can control cherry blossom blades with his freakin' mind

This guy can fire energy waves from his sword

This guy can grow back body parts

Shinigami can do anything you can do better, they can do anything better than you (except the javelin toss, that's too difficult) :amuse
[hr]

What was he going to do, throw it at him? Once the string's broken a weapon like that is already pretty screwed over, the rest of it being broken off kinda seals the deal. Any attack he could possibly have done at that point would have either not worked, or been significantly weaker anyway given he burned the wing out already. At that point the dude was running on fumes, though granted he was still able to pull off the puppet trick.

Well, considering that Ishida knew the Final Quincy form lasts a very short time, it's likely that he poured everything he had into a single shot to avoid being poisoned. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that his bow would stay intact had he made sure to keep enough spirit particles in reserve when he fired. If he knew the form was only good for one fight anyway, the killing shot he decided to go for may as well be as powerful as possible.

I don't have an answer for whether the bow would work well or not once broken, but I do think that if Ishida was not going for a OHK, his bow would not have broken in the first place.

Primecut
December 07, 2010, 11:58 AM
How can Ishida even harm Ulquiorra when Ulq was swatting his arrows away like they were shot from a nerf foam gun? This thread is a massive stomp in Ulq's favor unless there is something I'm missing. Maybe if Ishida has some sort of equalizer...but wasnt he the one who was crapping his pants when Ulq released x2?

daman246
December 07, 2010, 12:16 PM
ulruquira wins dont even compare ishida final form to ulruquira u guys are basing mayuri with ulruquira which is ridiculous ulruquira will stomp mayuri in a fight ishidas final form is most likely as strong as ichigos bankai with mask thats all the destruction in ishidas form isnt big or strong as ulruquira

conn-man
December 07, 2010, 01:34 PM
How can Ishida even harm Ulquiorra when Ulq was swatting his arrows away like they were shot from a nerf foam gun? This thread is a massive stomp in Ulq's favor unless there is something I'm missing. Maybe if Ishida has some sort of equalizer...but wasnt he the one who was crapping his pants when Ulq released x2?

because hes using quincy final form. but you knew that didnt you? still tryin to stir the pot, huh? please, nobody respond to this now that i've cleared it up for him.

EnvyOS
December 08, 2010, 02:31 AM
This is Bleach...

This guy can control cherry blossom blades with his freakin' mind

This guy can fire energy waves from his sword

This guy can grow back body parts

Shinigami can do anything you can do better, they can do anything better than you (except the javelin toss, that's too difficult)

Last time I checked, neither Ulquiorra or Ishida were Shinigami.

conn-man
December 08, 2010, 12:11 PM
Last time I checked, neither Ulquiorra or Ishida were Shinigami.

You should assume that he was generalizing about all spiritual characters in bleach. They're spiritual existence makes almost anything a possibility.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 12:21 PM
Last time I checked, neither Ulquiorra or Ishida were Shinigami.

Oh, conn-man beat me to it :amuse

kulash05
December 09, 2010, 11:50 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-4/bleach/chapter-126.html

Note the string drifting to the side with nothing connecting it, and the lack of the bottom half of the bow. The thing's completely in-usable.

We see in the manga (some one else pointed it out) and see it even clearer in the anime (he even forms another arrow to fire, and is stopped just short) that the bow wasn't totally wasted. Another point is that he might be even stronger the second time using the final form. If he does it with the training he took for HM, then he might have better control over it.

Random101
December 09, 2010, 11:51 PM
How can a bow that's snapped in half and has the string broken not be totally wasted? Seriously. That's the definition of totally wasted for that sort of weapon.

kulash05
December 09, 2010, 11:53 PM
His physical stats are atrocious, he gets by with Intelligence and Kido. Speed isn't his forte, he's actually ranked lowest among the captains in that regard.

That being said I'm not saying the blow was meant to kill, I'm saying why use a feint if you're going for a serious wound anyway. Again, Mayuri's arm is gone after that. Particularly if you could just as easily hit with the first shot and be done with it if he's capable of it. Granted there's shonen logic to be applied here, and maybe it was written like that because it was cooler (though frankly firing shot so fast Mayuri couldn't even react at all would have been cooler still, but then again there's a lot of stock scenes to pull from) but by basic point is still that he can miss someone like Mayuri, and Ulquiorra's clearly far above that at least.

I wondered about him doing a feint attack also, but I also watched this fight a few times (one of my personal favorites) and i notice that before he went FF, he did the feint attack and it failed and Mayuri mocked him for it. I think he did it as more of a psychological break down. He wasn't just fighting to kill him, but to break him and make him feel grief for all the crimes to humanity (quinicity?) he performed.

Primecut
December 10, 2010, 09:19 PM
because hes using quincy final form. but you knew that didnt you? still tryin to stir the pot, huh? please, nobody respond to this now that i've cleared it up for him.

Final form? What good will do that? Just because he can speedblitz a weak fighter like Mayuri doesnt mean he can blitz the Antagonizer aka Ulquiorra R1 and R2 respectively. I bet Ulq R2 could just reiatsu crush Ishida's arrows with his reiatsu alone. Why would Ishida say he never felt that kind of power before when Ulq went R2 if he himself had wielded equivalent or greater power in the past? The answer: Final form Ishida is confirmed weaker than Ulq R2 already.

Jackk
December 17, 2010, 01:10 PM
Final form? What good will do that? Just because he can speedblitz a weak fighter like Mayuri doesnt mean he can blitz the Antagonizer aka Ulquiorra R1 and R2 respectively. I bet Ulq R2 could just reiatsu crush Ishida's arrows with his reiatsu alone. Why would Ishida say he never felt that kind of power before when Ulq went R2 if he himself had wielded equivalent or greater power in the past? The answer: Final form Ishida is confirmed weaker than Ulq R2 already.

Not necessarily.

Want to know why? It's because Quincys such as Ishida actually get more powerful by using external power, or in other words... by using the spirit particulates in their surroundings to add to their own power. And Hueco Mundo just happens to be the place with the highest concentration of spirit particles in the atmosphere. Ishida himself outright stated that he would be able to utilize his powers and abilities much better and stronger in Hueco mundo than human world and even better than in Soul society.

Further, the final Quincy form further enhances a quincy's ability to absorb spiritrons from their surroundings at an alarmingly fast rate. Mayuri even stated that Ishida had complete dominance of the spiritrons. Final Quincy form is going to be significantly stronger in Hueco Mundo than it was in Soul Society.... so yeah. I think Ishida may have a pretty good chance in this fight.

ninjabot
December 18, 2010, 02:26 PM
Want to know why? It's because Quincys such as Ishida actually get more powerful by using external power, or in other words... by using the spirit particulates in their surroundings to add to their own power. And Hueco Mundo just happens to be the place with the highest concentration of spirit particles in the atmosphere. Ishida himself outright stated that he would be able to utilize his powers and abilities much better and stronger in Hueco mundo than human world and even better than in Soul society.


Right, but can he form arrows fast enough to keep Ulqiorra on the defensive? Or hit someone moving at his speed for that matter? I sincerely doubt it. The speed difference between Ulqiorra and Mayuri is massive before even going R2. And then there's the fact that QFC is on a time limit (it looked to have only lasted for a short time atleast), and Ulquiorra can regenerate anything that doesn't hit his head or vitals. He could simply outlast Uryuu if need be, or blow away his arrows with a well timed cero.

Not to mention there's no telling how much of a boost he'd gain from being in HM. It may not be significant enough to matter.

Jackk
December 19, 2010, 02:18 AM
Right, but can he form arrows fast enough to keep Ulqiorra on the defensive?

I believe that he can. Although I wouldn't say that that would be Ishida's strategy since, of course, we both know that he does have some sort of time limit while in his FQF. Therefore, he will try to make however many arrows he has actually count. Remember that Ishida is also calm, a great tactician, and always analyzing his enemies... from what we've seen in his fights.

Heck Ishida is not only calm and tactical, but he's also able to think fast and he's pretty fearless as well. This is shown when Ishida (without his final quincy form) actually faced Ulquiorra R2 (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-349/page012.html), knowing full well that Uquiorra was more powerful. Ishida got his arm cut off and he was still calm and standing. He even applied an anesthetic and something to stop his bleeding on the spot (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-349/page017.html).

Mayuri had even gone as far as calling Ishida a genius (http://www.mangareader.net/94-578-6/bleach/chapter-124.html) too, and we know that Mayuri doesn't go around complementing people just like that.... he was actually really impressed with Ishida's abilities, which would be boosted dramatically in FQF, and even more so while in Hueco mundo.


Or hit someone moving at his speed for that matter? I sincerely doubt it.

I sincerely believe that Ishida in FQF could, particularly while in Hueco Mundo.


The speed difference between Ulqiorra and Mayuri is massive before even going R2.

Well it's not as if we ever saw a fight between Mayuri and Ulquiorra. Granted though, I do agree with you that Ulquiorra must be quite a bit faster than Mayuri. Still, even though Mayuri isn't among the fastest captains, he still is a captain after all though...and he has shown captain level shunpo skills as well. Furthermore, even if Ulquiorra is faster than Mayuri, we know Ishida in FQF completely outclassed Mayuri in pretty much everything by far as well... and this was while in Soul Society. Ishida in FQF while in Hueco mundo is going to be even faster so I wouldn't be so sure about Ulquiorra still being so fast that Ishida couldn't land one of his arrows... to say the least.

As I already noted in a previous post, not just his arrows, but Ishida himself in FQF while in Hueco mundo should be much faster too... due to the fact that his version of shunpo, which is "Hirenkyaku" actually also works with spiritrons by gathering them under his feet and using them to achieve high speed movement.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-697-16/bleach/chapter-243.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-576-10/bleach/chapter-122.html

Higher concentration of spirit particles in Hueco mundo's atmosphere and complete dominance (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-125/page006.html) over them at an incredible rate while in his Final quincy form... is going to not only make Ishida very powerful but also very fast too.


And then there's the fact that QFC is on a time limit

This much is true;however, Ishida is a good tactician from what we've seen in his fights. He knows he doesn't have all the time in the world, and I don't think that Ishida is showing mercy to Ulquiorra in this fantasy fight. (Ishida outright stated that he was holding back and showing mercy (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-11/bleach/chapter-125.html) to Mayuri in their SS fight)


and Ulquiorra can regenerate anything that doesn't hit his head or vitals.

That's true;however, Ishida doesn't even need to aim for Ulquiorra's head. What Ishida needs to do is shoot an arrow powerful enough to blast a hole through Ulquiorra's body, which would obviously obliterate his internal organs...and inevitably kill Ulquiorra.

I realize that Ishida isn't among the most powerful fighters currently, and people tend to see him as weak;however, the FQF is a different deal and it's seriously overpowered... it's basically the quincy equivalent of the FGT.


He could simply outlast Uryuu if need be, or blow away his arrows with a well timed cero.

Considering that FQF Uryuu will have complete dominance over the spiritrons in Hueco Mundo's atmosphere... and Uryuu is aware that his power will go away after a while, I don't think that Uryuu will just sit there and waste time or show mercy to Ulquiorra like he did to Mayuri.

And blow away his arrows with a cero? lol no. This is a quincy arrow that went through and completely cut in half a captain's massive Bankai (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-126/page003.html), then proceeded to continue its path and blast a hole through the captain of said Bankai (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-126/page002.html). If that wasn't enough, we also know that his arrows are going to be much faster and much more powerful in Hueco mundo than they were in Soul society due to the higher concentration of spiritrons in Hueco mundo's atmosphere... which is what Ishida uses to boost his arrows dramatically.


Not to mention there's no telling how much of a boost he'd gain from being in HM. It may not be significant enough to matter.

Sorry, but that would make no sense. Why would Ishida appear so excited about it, and why even bother mentioning that he and his abilities will be so much better in Hueco Mundo?

http://www.mangareader.net/94-699-15/bleach/chapter-245.html

It definitely has to be something significant, specially since we know that the FQF dramatically increases Ishida's own spiritual pressure/reiatsu (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-4/bleach/chapter-125.html), and also gives Ishida complete dominance over the spiritrons (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-6/bleach/chapter-125.html) around him and at an alarming rate. Then we know that Hueco mundo is the place that has the highest concentration of spiritrons in the atmosphere, so yeah...

ninjabot
December 19, 2010, 03:54 PM
I believe that he can. Although I wouldn't say that that would be Ishida's strategy since, of course, we both know that he does have some sort of time limit while in his FQF. Therefore, he will try to make however many arrows he has actually count. Remember that Ishida is also calm, a great tactician, and always analyzing his enemies... from what we've seen in his fights.


Whatever strategy he opts for would have to be a quick one, made on the fly as he's defending himself. He can't endure the kind of damage Ulqiorra can, thus he'll have to rely on speed to blitze around. And the more running around he does the more that clock dwindles away.



Heck Ishida is not only calm and tactical, but he's also able to think fast and he's pretty fearless as well. This is shown when Ishida (without his final quincy form) actually faced Ulquiorra R2 (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-349/page012.html), knowing full well that Uquiorra was more powerful. Ishida got his arm cut off and he was still calm and standing. He even applied an anesthetic and something to stop his bleeding on the spot (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-349/page017.html).


Oh, I know. Ulqiorra even states he recognizes Uryuu as the calm one. Which would lead him to be far more cautious once Uryuu reaches a level of power where he could actually do some damage (which I'm still iffy about him being able to do so. Like, immensely).



Mayuri had even gone as far as calling Ishida a genius (http://www.mangareader.net/94-578-6/bleach/chapter-124.html) too, and we know that Mayuri doesn't go around complementing people just like that.... he was actually really impressed with Ishida's abilities, which would be boosted dramatically in FQF, and even more so while in Hueco mundo.


I agree he's a genius aswell, but that only goes so far in the face of overwhelming power. I think it's accurate to say SS Ishida was VC level prior to breaking his glove. After doing so he reached captain level. Just captain level. If this was HM Ishida with the Final Quincy form he might be pushed to mid-tier captain level though... which is still beneath Ulquiorra prior to R2.


Well it's not as if we ever saw a fight between Mayuri and Ulquiorra. Granted though, I do agree with you that Ulquiorra must be quite a bit faster than Mayuri. Still, even though Mayuri isn't among the fastest captains, he still is a captain after all though...and he has shown captain level shunpo skills as well. [/quote]


Comperable to anything Ulqiorra has shown? R1 or R2? Remember, it still took interferance from Nemu to allow Mayuri to connect with his sword against Uryuu, even with his shunpo skill. If he needs that much help against someone of Uryuu's level prior to the FQF, we really shouldn't be that impressed by his speed.



Furthermore, even if Ulquiorra is faster than Mayuri, we know Ishida in FQF completely outclassed Mayuri in pretty much everything by far as well... and this was while in Soul Society. Ishida in FQF while in Hueco mundo is going to be even faster so I wouldn't be so sure about Ulquiorra still being so fast that Ishida couldn't land one of his arrows... to say the least.


Don't just take the speed advantage into consideration: the power difference is another major thing to realize. Uryuu shot through a Captain's bankai. Still, it was quite possible the least physically inpressive captain in the entire Gotei. Ulqiorra however, tanked a full power Hollowfied GT without the slightest sign of injury. And landing one arrow does not a gamebreaker make, considering the area he has to damage if he expects to win.



As I already noted in a previous post, not just his arrows, but Ishida himself in FQF while in Hueco mundo should be much faster too... due to the fact that his version of shunpo, which is "Hirenkyaku" actually also works with spiritrons by gathering them under his feet and using them to achieve high speed movement.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-697-16/bleach/chapter-243.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-576-10/bleach/chapter-122.html

Higher concentration of spirit particles in Hueco mundo's atmosphere and complete dominance (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-125/page006.html) over them at an incredible rate while in his Final quincy form... is going to not only make Ishida very powerful but also very fast too.


I'm not debating whether his speed and power would grow, I'm debating the level at which it would, how many shots his bow can fire before his string snaps, and how much focus he has to absorb, construct, and fire while being actually attacked. Mayuri simply watched as Uryuu commensed his assault. Ulquiorra is armed with his own long range attacks, some of which take less prep than the arrows. He's also set up for close range fighting where as Ishida has a very destroyable bow (broken string).



This much is true;however, Ishida is a good tactician from what we've seen in his fights. He knows he doesn't have all the time in the world, and I don't think that Ishida is showing mercy to Ulquiorra in this fantasy fight. (Ishida outright stated that he was holding back and showing mercy (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-11/bleach/chapter-125.html) to Mayuri in their SS fight)


I'm well aware he could have fired a 3x stronger arrow. Still, if both enemies are bloodlusted then Uryuu is still at a disadvantage by way of not fighting a giant immobile catapillar, but a super fast nuke lobbing Batman.



That's true;however, Ishida doesn't even need to aim for Ulquiorra's head. What Ishida needs to do is shoot an arrow powerful enough to blast a hole through Ulquiorra's body, which would obviously obliterate his internal organs...and inevitably kill Ulquiorra.


Provided his bow lasts long enough to connect with a direct blow to his chest. Whether Ulq is simply dodging or he's firing cero directly into the path of the bow to cancel out, deflect, or overpower his arrows, the time limit dwindles more and more until either he starts powering down or his bow breaks.



I realize that Ishida isn't among the most powerful fighters currently, and people tend to see him as weak;however, the FQF is a different deal and it's seriously overpowered... it's basically the quincy equivalent of the FGT.


I think that's a bit of an overstatement when you consider the boost in power he gained relative to the level he was already at. I sincerely doubt being in HM would give Uryuu a power increase so high that he'd reach senior captain levels of power.



Considering that FQF Uryuu will have complete dominance over the spiritrons in Hueco Mundo's atmosphere... and Uryuu is aware that his power will go away after a while, I don't think that Uryuu will just sit there and waste time or show mercy to Ulquiorra like he did to Mayuri.


I fully expect him to attempt to go all out. It's at that point that he'd realize the difference in power and speed between Ulqiorra and Mayuri. If they both start at their respective final forms then Uryuu actually doesn't get a chance to go all out. He has to catch Ulq before he can release if he expects to do any kind of real damage.



And blow away his arrows with a cero? lol no. This is a quincy arrow that went through and completely cut in half a captain's massive Bankai (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-126/page003.html), then proceeded to continue its path and blast a hole through the captain of said Bankai (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-126/page002.html). If that wasn't enough, we also know that his arrows are going to be much faster and much more powerful in Hueco mundo than they were in Soul society due to the higher concentration of spiritrons in Hueco mundo's atmosphere... which is what Ishida uses to boost his arrows dramatically.


And what, in those scans lead you to believe that a Cero Oscuras from Ulqiorra couldn't do the exact same? Hell, if it's the collateral damage you're impressed with then a normal menos' cero can deal that level of damage, lol.



Sorry, but that would make no sense. Why would Ishida appear so excited about it, and why even bother mentioning that he and his abilities will be so much better in Hueco Mundo?

http://www.mangareader.net/94-699-15/bleach/chapter-245.html


Because he hasn't experienced the increase yet. He simply knew that the increase would happen. If someone told you you'd be stronger just from being in a different location, wouldn't it excite you?



It definitely has to be something significant, specially since we know that the FQF dramatically increases Ishida's own spiritual pressure/reiatsu (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-4/bleach/chapter-125.html), and also gives Ishida complete dominance over the spiritrons (http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-6/bleach/chapter-125.html) around him and at an alarming rate. Then we know that Hueco mundo is the place that has the highest concentration of spiritrons in the atmosphere, so yeah...


Well if we're taking that route: http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-1/bleach/chapter-125.html

"One will get burned by a power they can't control." What's to say that the immense over abundance of spiritrons gets absorbed at an alarmig rate to Uryuu's wing, absorbing so much that his human body can't control it? He already passes his limits with it in SS. Doing so in HM could be too much for him to take until "POP!" I mean, if the increase is as signifcant as you say that is.

juUnior
December 20, 2010, 07:23 AM
Like I said elsewhere, to me Ishida in his final form can take on almost anyone in Bleachverse <with few exeptions probably like Yama-ji xd>, so naturally I say that Ulquiorra is defeated in such scenario, though the fight would be a close one, and Ishida would need to be in his style of fighting - not bringing the fight to direct hits which would devastate his "human" body <after all, he's not Ichi in shinigami form who can tank hits etc. :p> If he would do that <and I think in final form he would even better>, he takes this one ^^

Takahashi
December 20, 2010, 03:12 PM
Whatever strategy he opts for would have to be a quick one, made on the fly as he's defending himself. He can't endure the kind of damage Ulqiorra can, thus he'll have to rely on speed to blitze around. And the more running around he does the more that clock dwindles away.

Yes, but unlike Ulq, "running around" works just fine, he's got a long range weapon (that he can actually aim). I don't think any plan Ishida implements would involve him getting close anyway.





I agree he's a genius aswell, but that only goes so far in the face of overwhelming power. I think it's accurate to say SS Ishida was VC level prior to breaking his glove. After doing so he reached captain level. Just captain level. If this was HM Ishida with the Final Quincy form he might be pushed to mid-tier captain level though... which is still beneath Ulquiorra prior to R2.

It's accurate to say Ishida JUST reached Captain level? I can't imagine even a higher up captain would split another captains Bankai and it's user down the middle in a single shot.



Comperable to anything Ulqiorra has shown? R1 or R2? Remember, it still took interferance from Nemu to allow Mayuri to connect with his sword against Uryuu, even with his shunpo skill. If he needs that much help against someone of Uryuu's level prior to the FQF, we really shouldn't be that impressed by his speed.

Considering that Mayuri Shunpo'd beside Ishida without him noticing, I'm guessing he could have connected just fine. Kubo just wanted to show us Mayuri's personality in a fight more than anything.





Don't just take the speed advantage into consideration: the power difference is another major thing to realize. Uryuu shot through a Captain's bankai. Still, it was quite possible the least physically inpressive captain in the entire Gotei. Ulqiorra however, tanked a full power Hollowfied GT without the slightest sign of injury. And landing one arrow does not a gamebreaker make, considering the area he has to damage if he expects to win.

Physically the least impressive captain maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that his Bankai is still physically capable. It may have poison as its immediate deadly ability, but it's clearly the type that rushes head first and crushes things with those pointy spikes. Plus, when have we ever seen a Bankai get destroyed that badly before? We've seen some of them break apart, Tengen lost an arm, but aside from Ishida's arrow, no one has ever caused that kind of damage before. It split a Bankai down the middle, punctured a massive Komamura sized hole in Mayuri, and kept going to rip apart the environment behind him.





I'm not debating whether his speed and power would grow, I'm debating the level at which it would, how many shots his bow can fire before his string snaps, and how much focus he has to absorb, construct, and fire while being actually attacked. Mayuri simply watched as Uryuu commensed his assault. Ulquiorra is armed with his own long range attacks, some of which take less prep than the arrows. He's also set up for close range fighting where as Ishida has a very destroyable bow (broken string).

While Ulq has good regeneration, he can't restore organs, so even a chest shot that he gave Mayuri would do the job. There's always so much emphasis on head shots, but there's plenty of things you can destroy in the chest that will result in an instant death. Unless you think Ulq's Hierro is significantly > Giant Baby Bankai and Mayuri himself, which I really doubt.





I'm well aware he could have fired a 3x stronger arrow. Still, if both enemies are bloodlusted then Uryuu is still at a disadvantage by way of not fighting a giant immobile catapillar, but a super fast nuke lobbing Batman.

Well no one would think Ishida would win if he wasn't at Ulq's speed. He'd be getting not just a power boost from HM, but a significant speed increase as well, and I think it would be enough to be competitive.






Provided his bow lasts long enough to connect with a direct blow to his chest. Whether Ulq is simply dodging or he's firing cero directly into the path of the bow to cancel out, deflect, or overpower his arrows, the time limit dwindles more and more until either he starts powering down or his bow breaks.

Well that's with the assumption that his Cero is capable of that. I don't know about anyone else, but Cero have never been impressive to me, and I have serious doubts that Ulq could deflect Ishida's arrows.






I think that's a bit of an overstatement when you consider the boost in power he gained relative to the level he was already at. I sincerely doubt being in HM would give Uryuu a power increase so high that he'd reach senior captain levels of power.

Well it IS the Quincy FGT after all, it should come as no surprise that people think it's insanely powerful, myself included.




Well if we're taking that route: http://www.mangareader.net/94-579-1/bleach/chapter-125.html

"One will get burned by a power they can't control." What's to say that the immense over abundance of spiritrons gets absorbed at an alarmig rate to Uryuu's wing, absorbing so much that his human body can't control it? He already passes his limits with it in SS. Doing so in HM could be too much for him to take until "POP!" I mean, if the increase is as signifcant as you say that is.

Heh, I just got the funniest image in my head. :amuse

Anyway, right after the "one will get burned by a power they can't control", that's when it's revealed that he'll lose his powers. I think that was the point, you'll get "burned" as in burning out your powers. I don't really see a scenario where he would actually explode, as hilarious as that would be.

ninjabot
December 20, 2010, 09:32 PM
Yes, but unlike Ulq, "running around" works just fine, he's got a long range weapon (that he can actually aim). I don't think any plan Ishida implements would involve him getting close anyway.


Cero, Cero Oscuras, and regular non-LDR lances are all part of Ulqiorra's repertoire. Though I'm not sure whether he can create regular lances while in R2.




It's accurate to say Ishida JUST reached Captain level? I can't imagine even a higher up captain would split another captains Bankai and it's user down the middle in a single shot.


Kenpachi made Tousen's Bankai pop like a baloon from cutting him 2 or 3 times. Still, he had his eyepatch on, meaning he could've done it in one. Or, he could've went for Kendou to guarantee it's obliterated in one.



Considering that Mayuri Shunpo'd beside Ishida without him noticing, I'm guessing he could have connected just fine. Kubo just wanted to show us Mayuri's personality in a fight more than anything.


It's possible, but he only surprised Ishida in the beginning. He opted for having Nemu guarantee him a connecting blow after Ishida already knew Mayuri's potential speed, meaning Ishida would be on guard. Remember this is the first captain level opponent Ishida's faced, thus, he had no idea what level of speed he'd be dealing with.



Physically the least impressive captain maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that his Bankai is still physically capable. It may have poison as its immediate deadly ability, but it's clearly the type that rushes head first and crushes things with those pointy spikes.


I dunno. How many caterpillars have you seen "rush" at anything, lmao? It either rushes at the speed of a crawling caterpillar, or a crawling baby. I think it pounced on Szayel though, who was pretty immobile in his released form (or atleast looked that way).



Plus, when have we ever seen a Bankai get destroyed that badly before? We've seen some of them break apart, Tengen lost an arm, but aside from Ishida's arrow, no one has ever caused that kind of damage before. It split a Bankai down the middle, punctured a massive Komamura sized hole in Mayuri, and kept going to rip apart the environment behind him.



Tengen was also given a hole through his torso that took Komamura out of the fight for a while (by Tousen). He had to regain his strength before going to fight Aizen. Though you have to look at the difference between Komamura and Mayuri's physical constitution. I assure you that Mayuri's bankai isn't as durable as Komamura's. I doubt it's even close.




While Ulq has good regeneration, he can't restore organs, so even a chest shot that he gave Mayuri would do the job. There's always so much emphasis on head shots, but there's plenty of things you can destroy in the chest that will result in an instant death. Unless you think Ulq's Hierro is significantly > Giant Baby Bankai and Mayuri himself, which I really doubt.


Remember that Ulqiorra's organs were obliterated before the end of the fight with Ichigonator and he still managed to get up (with nothing but an arm and a head and some wings I think) to connect with a surprise attack. Even if he dies in the end like he did against Ichigo, killing him isn't enough to end the fight from what we've seen.



Well no one would think Ishida would win if he wasn't at Ulq's speed. He'd be getting not just a power boost from HM, but a significant speed increase as well, and I think it would be enough to be competitive.



Yeah, I get that. I just don't see it though. I mean, just having access to shunpo does'nt mean much for Mayuri's speed. Hell, Renji can shunpo. Mayuri's a captain, sure but likely the slowest (I'm placing him above Kenpachi if only because of shunpo).



Well that's with the assumption that his Cero is capable of that. I don't know about anyone else, but Cero have never been impressive to me, and I have serious doubts that Ulq could deflect Ishida's arrows.


Average cero are weaksauce, sure. Not Cero Oscuras though.



Well it IS the Quincy FGT after all, it should come as no surprise that people think it's insanely powerful, myself included.


I agree it's powerful. I don't agree it's as powerful as people are saying though. I don't know, it would've looked more impressive if he'd oneshotted Tengen or blew threw Byakuya's Hakuteiken. Then again he could have shot an attack that was 3 times stronger, provided he had a spare bowstring somewhere...



Heh, I just got the funniest image in my head. :amuse

Anyway, right after the "one will get burned by a power they can't control", that's when it's revealed that he'll lose his powers. I think that was the point, you'll get "burned" as in burning out your powers. I don't really see a scenario where he would actually explode, as hilarious as that would be.


Maybe, maybe not. I interpreted it as "your flame will burn so hot and huge that it'll burn you if you can't contain it." It could just be such a boost that he has to remain cautious like Ulqiorra is with the LDR (not wanting to use it too close for fear of being caught in the explosion), or it's a huge physical strain throwing his aim off. It could even be that Ishida has no difficulty until he tries to absorb more and more reishi, meaning he's perfectly fine aslong as he doesn't force himself to shoot too many arrows too often.

Or, he simply overloads like Aizen did when Urahara used that seal on him and actually DOES blow up. Guess it's up for interpretation.

Takahashi
December 20, 2010, 10:46 PM
Cero, Cero Oscuras, and regular non-LDR lances are all part of Ulqiorra's repertoire. Though I'm not sure whether he can create regular lances while in R2.

I've said it before, and Cero (Ceros?) just seem very meh to me.




Kenpachi made Tousen's Bankai pop like a baloon from cutting him 2 or 3 times. Still, he had his eyepatch on, meaning he could've done it in one. Or, he could've went for Kendou to guarantee it's obliterated in one.

That's not destroying the Bankai and its user, that's damaging the user enough for their Bankai to automatically disappear, akin to Renji VS Byakuya.




It's possible, but he only surprised Ishida in the beginning. He opted for having Nemu guarantee him a connecting blow after Ishida already knew Mayuri's potential speed, meaning Ishida would be on guard. Remember this is the first captain level opponent Ishida's faced, thus, he had no idea what level of speed he'd be dealing with.

Well he knew he was a captain, that alone should have been a tip off that his opponent was unlike anything he'd ever faced. Fact is, regardless of whether or not Ishida knew how fast he was, he still was fast enough to not be tracked until he spoke.




I dunno. How many caterpillars have you seen "rush" at anything, lmao? It either rushes at the speed of a crawling caterpillar, or a crawling baby. I think it pounced on Szayel though, who was pretty immobile in his released form (or atleast looked that way).

Maybe my memory is off because of watching the anime. Regardless, those giant spikes have to be there for something, if it's not offense, then it's defense. And if it's defense oriented, that's more of a testament to the power Ishida put through it.





Tengen was also given a hole through his torso that took Komamura out of the fight for a while (by Tousen). He had to regain his strength before going to fight Aizen. Though you have to look at the difference between Komamura and Mayuri's physical constitution. I assure you that Mayuri's bankai isn't as durable as Komamura's. I doubt it's even close.

Tengen got a hole put in him, but not THROUGH him. Being split end to end down the middle is far more severe.

Considering Komamura's Bankai is connected to him, that means Tengen is only as durable as Komamura is. I think Koma is just THAT much of a tank that he makes up for it that way. I don't however think that Komamura's tanking is > Giant Baby AND Mayuri (and keep in mind it still had the power to distort everything behind him too)





Remember that Ulqiorra's organs were obliterated before the end of the fight with Ichigonator and he still managed to get up (with nothing but an arm and a head and some wings I think) to connect with a surprise attack. Even if he dies in the end like he did against Ichigo, killing him isn't enough to end the fight from what we've seen.

Well if Ulq is put on his last legs like that, then I don't see him winning. He'll just be desperate, and Ishida won't be turning his back to him like Ichigonator did.





Yeah, I get that. I just don't see it though. I mean, just having access to shunpo does'nt mean much for Mayuri's speed. Hell, Renji can shunpo. Mayuri's a captain, sure but likely the slowest (I'm placing him above Kenpachi if only because of shunpo).


I never meant to imply that Mayuri was really fast or anything. But reacting to attacks is something that everyone does just fine, very rarely do we see a REAL speed blitz with a completely vulnerable target. Mayuri narrowly dodged a purposely weak arrow and was hit by the second instantly.

My point is that if it comes to a point where the opponent can do literally nothing to avoid being hit, it's means that the attack was FAST. Mayuri is still a captain after all.

That being said, this is all opinion. Mayuri and Ulq have no common opponents, so to say that because Mayuri got blitzed Ulq would have trouble as well is somewhat unfounded, I'm sticking with it :amuse



Average cero are weaksauce, sure. Not Cero Oscuras though.

Problem is comparability. We know Cero suck because they're consistently unsuccessful, the specialized Cero are a question mark because of the lack of use.




I agree it's powerful. I don't agree it's as powerful as people are saying though. I don't know, it would've looked more impressive if he'd oneshotted Tengen or blew threw Byakuya's Hakuteiken. Then again he could have shot an attack that was 3 times stronger, provided he had a spare bowstring somewhere...

Well that's tough to answer. There's nothing to really suggest that Mayuri's Bankai is less durable than the ones listed, but there's no proof that it is as durable either. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think Ishida is powerful enough to take out Ulq is the simple fact that sacrificial techs are always astronomically powerful.




Maybe, maybe not. I interpreted it as "your flame will burn so hot and huge that it'll burn you if you can't contain it." It could just be such a boost that he has to remain cautious like Ulqiorra is with the LDR (not wanting to use it too close for fear of being caught in the explosion), or it's a huge physical strain throwing his aim off. It could even be that Ishida has no difficulty until he tries to absorb more and more reishi, meaning he's perfectly fine aslong as he doesn't force himself to shoot too many arrows too often.

Or, he simply overloads like Aizen did when Urahara used that seal on him and actually DOES blow up. Guess it's up for interpretation.

Guess it is. Keep in mind though that Ishida can control how much and what he absorbs. The thing that's scary is that Ishida essentially has infinite energy this way with (what I interpret) only the loss of his powers as a negative.