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Evil3ye
December 09, 2010, 09:58 AM
How do you think this battle would have ended without Aizen's interference?

Hiyori and Lisa would not be a big deal I think, so it all about the starting match up Harribel vs Hitsugaya.

Discuss :cookiehand

Waking_Dreamer
December 09, 2010, 10:46 AM
In this battle would it count Hitsugaya going bankai again to face Harribel...?

Evil3ye
December 09, 2010, 10:50 AM
Well, if I remember correctly he did go bankai afterwards, not sure if it was vs her or little later on against Aizen, but it doesn't really matter. It is canon that he had enough strength left to go bankai again, so yeah, sure

Jackk
December 09, 2010, 01:24 PM
Hitsugaya, Hiyori, and Lisa take this, and I would dare say... easily too.

That's 3 captain level fighters against Harribel. And Hiyori and Lisa ARE strong....

There's also a reason why Aizen interrupted the fight and just finished Harribel himself.... Aizen knew that Harribel was going to go down soon too.

ninjabot
December 09, 2010, 01:39 PM
More like a captain level fighter and two VC level fighters with 3 minutes of potentially captain level power (though doubtful) against one of the least impressive Espada who is still hindered by a handicap.

Eitherway they take the win, as Halibel is not only outnumbered, but incapable of making any of her attacks connect thanks to Hitsugaya's ability.

Jackk
December 09, 2010, 02:06 PM
More like a captain level fighter and two VC level fighters with 3 minutes of potentially captain level power (though doubtful) against one of the least impressive Espada who is still hindered by a handicap.

More like a captain level fighter and two other captain level fighters that also have a significant boost from hollowfication Masks with an unknown time limit.

Random101
December 09, 2010, 03:18 PM
Calling them captain level without mask is laughable at this stage. We need far more solid feats than they've shown to be able to call that much to say the least. Particularly given the ease Gin of all people could cut right through her like nothing, I've literally never seen a straight up slash able to do that much pretty much anywhere else, even from Shirosaki to Byakuya up close. Though granted that scene had PLOT written all over it so it's not the best comparison in itself.

Though Hitsugaya in Bankai could pretty much go toe to toe regardless, and having two decent backups for 2-3 minute intervals to keep her off him can only help to say the least, and he's got their defenses down pat from the start.

El Samurai Guapo
December 09, 2010, 05:18 PM
Harribel gets raped very quickly. IMO it's a toss up as to whether or not Lisa could have finished her own her own, but Hiyori and Lisa together should pretty much be a given. Add in Toushirou, even in shikai, and this is a complete mismatch. Like Jackk pointed out, even Aizen knew she was finished, which is why he did what he did.

Evil3ye
December 10, 2010, 02:02 AM
There a reason why they didn't 'rape' her within the manga plot? According to the poll so far and the comments, it seems like she didn't stand a chance from the beginning, while taking a look at the manga she had yet to get hurt by a single one of them. The Three to one disagvantage she managed without many difficulties and uhm, her final attack had yet to be shown. Just a reminder; it was said it gets stronger the more water is around (the longer the battle lasts).

Raizen
December 10, 2010, 11:43 AM
Team hitsu wins but only b/c of hitsugaya. He alone already showed he can beat her.

As for the vizards, clashing swords with halibel for 2 seconds does not mean u are on her level

Evil3ye
December 11, 2010, 10:06 AM
Team hitsu wins but only b/c of hitsugaya. He alone already showed he can beat her.
How that? To me it seemed all he was capable of is immobilizing her for a certain time.

Also, we don't know whether he could be able to use his Ice pillar attack an other time, but even if, he wouldn't do that, because it would affect Lisa and Hiyori as well.

I don't see anything he could do to beat Hallibel.

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 09:11 PM
How that? To me it seemed all he was capable of is immobilizing her for a certain time.

Also, we don't know whether he could be able to use his Ice pillar attack an other time, but even if, he wouldn't do that, because it would affect Lisa and Hiyori as well.

I don't see anything he could do to beat Hallibel.
Hi evil!! :)

He had her beat though. If you look here, she was exerting SP to protect herself form the ice
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c359/12.html
Had WW had not shown up, she would have exhausted her SP and eventually died. And I am considering since he doesn't really know lisa and hiyori, he wouldn't care about taking them out as well :p

Crystal Black
December 13, 2010, 09:24 PM
How that? To me it seemed all he was capable of is immobilizing her for a certain time.

Also, we don't know whether he could be able to use his Ice pillar attack an other time, but even if, he wouldn't do that, because it would affect Lisa and Hiyori as well.

I don't see anything he could do to beat Hallibel.

WW interference pretty much shows that the espada were at a disadvantage that's when the vizards stepped in. Who knows what would of happened if WW didn't show but the advantage was towards the captains. Harribel alone was losing to Toshiro, Shunsui was at a handicapped the whole time and with Shunsui with the help of Ukitake they would have defeated Stark sooner, Barragan was the toughest match-up there but there was a reason no senior captain fought him, KIDO..

Takahashi
December 14, 2010, 06:32 PM
I can't believe people consider Lisa and Hiyori captain level.

Sorry, but if Lisa and Hiyori were captain level, then that means that Halibel fought the equivalent of 3 captains at once and was unharmed. Halibel is officially the new Primera then.

Are Hiyori and Lisa weak? No. Are they above the average VC? Definitely.

But to say that they're captain level without even factoring in the mask's boost is INSANE (Jackk). Hell, even with the mask I don't see how they're captain level at all. If you think so, it's completely speculation, they have no captain level feats.

Don't forget, the Espada ARE Vaizards with different starting points, yet I seem to recall "just" Shinigami captains coming out on top.

Also, one of the most important points here regarding her durability. Aizen required TWO hits to bring her down. No one but her and Komamura required two strikes to bring down. The Vaizards, the high level captains, everyone went down in one hit except for those two, that says a lot.

El Samurai Guapo
December 14, 2010, 08:16 PM
I can't believe people consider Lisa and Hiyori captain level.

Sorry, but if Lisa and Hiyori were captain level, then that means that Halibel fought the equivalent of 3 captains at once and was unharmed. Halibel is officially the new Primera then.


She only fought the three of them for like 5 seconds until Aizen stomped her.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-22.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-24.html

They were all in shikai too, so fending off three shikais for a couple seconds doesn't make her the primera. Particularly with one shikai there (Toushirou's) already being proven obsolete against the weakest sealed espada.



But to say that they're captain level without even factoring in the mask's boost is INSANE (Jackk). Hell, even with the mask I don't see how they're captain level at all. If you think so, it's completely speculation, they have no captain level feats.

It's also complete speculation to think they aren't at captain level. The issue here is that you think they're both weak until they prove otherwise, as was the case in the Rose v Byakuya thread. I don't see how it's insane to believe they're captain level or that they could defeat Harribel. Have you seen something that suggests Hiyori and Lisa are not captain level? Was it the fact that Lisa didn't actually defeat Harribel? Ichigo is considered captain level and he got roflstomped by R1 Ulquiorra. Don't get me wrong, I think many captains would have been done in by R1 Ulquiorra too, but the point is Harribel fought Lisa alone for quite some time and neither seemed to be getting the upper hand...while Lisa was sealed. Of course, you can always argue what Random101 does and say Harribel was going easy on Lisa, but that obviously doesn't make sense at all.



Don't forget, the Espada ARE Vaizards with different starting points, yet I seem to recall "just" Shinigami captains coming out on top.

Well yeah, the arrancar are hybrids too, if that's what you mean, but an arrancar and a vaizard are not exactly the same. Arrancar still lean more towards the hollow side, while the vaizards are still mostly shinigami. From what's been shown so far, I think it's safe to say Shinigami are overall > Hollows. The espada were essentially the cream of the hollow crop (I doubt people are still denying the top ones were VLs) and they lost to Seireitei's top members.

Strangely enough, the vaizards seem capable of taking advantage of hollow abilities like cero, while you don't see any arrancar using kidou. Also, arrancar do have zanpakutou, but when they use their resureccion it just releases there former hollow abilities; that's nothing like the way shinigami zanpakutou work. In fact, while vaizards have an inner hollow inside of them that coexists with their zanpakutou spirit, I'm not convinced that arrancar have an inner zanpakutou spirit.


Also, one of the most important points here regarding her durability. Aizen required TWO hits to bring her down. No one but her and Komamura required two strikes to bring down. The Vaizards, the high level captains, everyone went down in one hit except for those two, that says a lot.

That's really not a feat in my opinion. How do you know for sure Aizen actually required two hits? I'm pretty sure Aizen is actually capable of taking her out in one-hit, I think he simply misjudged her stamina. Oh, and Shinji actually took two hits (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-400-page-14.html) from Aizen as well. Not consecutively of course, but it was two nonetheless.

Takahashi
December 14, 2010, 08:35 PM
She only fought the three of them for like 5 seconds until Aizen stomped her.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-22.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-24.html

Are you saying fighting Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Hitsugaya for 5 seconds would be easy? 3 people at captain level for even a single clash would still be devastating.



It's also complete speculation to think they aren't at captain level. The issue here is that you think they're both weak until they prove otherwise, as was the case in the Rose v Byakuya thread. I don't see how it's insane to believe they're captain level or that they could defeat Harribel.

That's like saying, "you don't believe in god? Well prove to me he DOESN'T exist". It's not my responsibility to prove what they aren't. It's whoever makes claims like "Lisa and Hiyori are captain level" to prove that they ARE. This is a discussion based on what we've seen, so outright saying something like that without proof is just a poor argument.




Well yeah, the arrancar are hybrids too, if that's what you mean, but an arrancar and a vaizard are not exactly the same. Arrancar still lean more towards the hollow side, while the vaizards are still mostly shinigami. From what's been shown so far, I think it's safe to say Shinigami are overall > Hollows. The espada were essentially the cream of the hollow crop (I doubt people are still denying the top ones were VLs) and they lost to Seireitei's top members.

I'm glad to hear you say you think there were VL's in the Espada group, god I got so sick of that hype :s

However, what I was trying to say is that pure Shinigami seem to be better than both forms of the hybrids. It's not fair, and in many cases it doesn't make sense. Look at some of my early posts, I defended the Vaizards quite a bit before we ever saw them in action, but the fact is, Kubo just made them a disappointment. From a logical perspective, they should be far better than just Shinigami, but what has happened thus far proves otherwise.


Strangely enough, the vaizards seem capable of taking advantage of hollow abilities like cero, while you don't see any arrancar using kidou. Also, arrancar do have zanpakutou, but when they use their resureccion it just releases there former hollow abilities; that's nothing like the way shinigami zanpakutou work. In fact, while vaizards have an inner hollow inside of them that coexists with their zanpakutou spirit, I'm not convinced that arrancar have an inner zanpakutou spirit.

That's an interesting point actually. However, that wasn't what I was saying, but be sure to remember that should a Vaizard/Arrancar discussion come up.

It was more that some people (like yourself) seem to think so highly of the Vaizards, and the basis of it is that because they're basically Shinigami with additional powers and a mask that undoubtedly boosts them. The thing is, the Espada were like that too, the top tier of Hollow that had additional powers that should make them a cut above, and like the Vaizards, were hyped to hell.




That's really not a feat in my opinion. How do you know for sure Aizen actually required two hits? I'm pretty sure Aizen is actually capable of taking her out in one-hit, I think he simply misjudged her. Oh, and Shinji actually took two hits (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-400-page-14.html) from Aizen as well. Not consecutively of course, but it was two nonetheless.

Didn't he make a comment about being displeased at requiring two strikes to bring her down? If not, I still see it as minor proof of the damage she can take, because honestly, ice and water damage is basically incalculable, and I've never really been sure whether either Hitsu or Halibel inflicted anything severe on each other (Once the ice shattered, Halibel looked fine).

And yeah, Shinji took two hits, but one was shallow for the purpose of taunting him, at least that's how I saw it.

El Samurai Guapo
December 14, 2010, 09:10 PM
Are you saying fighting Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Hitsugaya for 5 seconds would be easy? 3 people at captain level for even a single clash would still be devastating.


If Byakuya and Toushirou were only using shikai and Kenpachi was eye patched, yes....I mean no, it wouldn't be easy. I never said it was easy. The clash actually did look devastating. Harribel survived it, she's the released tercera espada after all; she's no pushover. However, ask yourself why Aizen came in and killed her immediately after he saw the three of them clash with her. It's fairly obvious that Aizen himself knew she was screwed.


That's like saying, "you don't believe in god? Well prove to me he DOESN'T exist". It's not my responsibility to prove what they aren't. It's whoever makes claims like "Lisa and Hiyori are captain level" to prove that they ARE. This is a discussion based on what we've seen, so outright saying something like that without proof is just a poor argument.

Well Jackk has already given you his reasons as to why he believes Hiyori and Lisa are captain level. You obviously don't think the feats he's brought up before (like Lisa keeping up with the speed of the captains, all of them fighting hollow bankai ichigo in the barrier, and Lisa vs. Harribel) counts as evidence for the two of them being captain level, but he does. I do too of course. Still there's certainly no valid reason for you to call it insane to think they're captain level, unless you want to show some evidence that proves they aren't. You don't hear us calling those who don't agree with us Lisa or Hiyori are captain level insane do you?



However, what I was trying to say is that pure Shinigami seem to be better than both forms of the hybrids. It's not fair, and in many cases it doesn't make sense. Look at some of my early posts, I defended the Vaizards quite a bit before we ever saw them in action, but the fact is, Kubo just made them a disappointment. From a logical perspective, they should be far better than just Shinigami, but what has happened thus far proves otherwise.

The only thing that was a disappointment was that we only got to see the baseline of what the vaizards are capable of in FKT. The way you speak is as if the vaizards showed us everything they're capable of and got crushed. So no, nothing so far proves that pure shinigami are superior to both forms of hybrids.



It was more that some people (like yourself) seem to think so highly of the Vaizards, and the basis of it is that because they're basically Shinigami with additional powers and a mask that undoubtedly boosts them. The thing is, the Espada were like that too, the top tier of Hollow that had additional powers that should make them a cut above, and like the Vaizards, were hyped to hell.

They were a cut above. Compare the espada to the rest of the hollows out there; obviously pure hollows can't compete with arrancar. Hybridization is what allowed them to contend with the very best shinigami - who could have otherwise reiatsu-crushed them. So going by your logic which dictates that vaizards and arrancar operate similarly: arrancar > pure hollows so vaizard > pure shinigami.



Didn't he make a comment about being displeased at requiring two strikes to bring her down? If not, I still see it as minor proof of the damage she can take, because honestly, ice and water damage is basically incalculable, and I've never really been sure whether either Hitsu or Halibel inflicted anything severe on each other (Once the ice shattered, Halibel looked fine).

I think he said something more along the lines of she'll regret making him lift his sword twice, but either way it doesn't prove he gave that first strike his all. In any case, you don't need to try and convince me of Harribel's durability; I already know she's very strong and durable. Like I said above, she was the released tercera after all, and she has hierro which the captains lack.

Takahashi
December 14, 2010, 09:33 PM
If Byakuya and Toushirou were only using shikai and Kenpachi was eye patched, yes....I mean no, it wouldn't be easy. I never said it was easy. The clash actually did look devastating. Harribel survived it, she's the released tercera espada after all; she's no pushover. However, ask yourself why Aizen came in and killed her immediately after he saw the three of them clash with her. It's fairly obvious that Aizen himself knew she was screwed.

I always saw it as a way for Kubo to progress because he was stumped as to how her sacrifice aspect was going to work :p




Well Jackk has already given you his reasons as to why he believes Hiyori and Lisa are captain level. You obviously don't think the feats he's brought up before (like Lisa keeping up with the speed of the captains, all of them fighting hollow bankai ichigo in the barrier, and Lisa vs. Harribel) counts as evidence for the two of them being captain level, but he does. I do too of course. Still there's certainly no valid reason for you to call it insane to think they're captain level, unless you want to show some evidence that proves they aren't. You don't hear us calling those who don't agree with us Lisa or Hiyori are captain level insane do you?

The insanity comment was directed at him saying that Hiyori and Lisa were captain level, AND have masks. Meaning that without them, they're captain level, and with them they're even better. I'm sorry, but I can't find any evidence at all to support that.

As far as the feats go:

Lisa keeping up with captains? Did I miss something?

We discussed it before, and I still see it as grasping at straws for off panel proof that, IF were true, means ALL of the Vaizards are top tier captain level. However, we've seen no actual proof of this, so I don't see it as valid.

Also, Lisa vs Halibel was one clash, a few lines of talking, and that's it. Lisa was also on the offensive, Halibel never actually ATTACKED her.

Completely off topic, but did anyone notice that Hisagi never got defeated in the FKT arc? Kira and Iba got cut down, yet Hisagi is nowhere to be seen...


The only thing that was a disappointment was that we only got to see the baseline of what the vaizards are capable of in FKT. The way you speak is as if the vaizards showed us everything they're capable of and got crushed. So no, nothing so far proves that pure shinigami are superior to both forms of hybrids.

The proof is the fact that we didn't get to see anything spectacular from them. They didn't show everything they've got, but neither have all of the captains. They're a disappointment because they SHOULD have been a game changer in the fight, and aside from Barragan, none of them succeeded.

Again, it comes down to Kubo not showing us anything. I'm not saying that the Vaizards can't be the most powerful Shinigami around, I'm just saying that for this point in time, we can only go by what they've done thus far.



They were a cut above. Compare the espada to the rest of the hollows out there; obviously pure hollows can't compete with arrancar. Hybridization is what allowed them to contend with the very best shinigami - who could have otherwise reiatsu-crushed them. So going by your logic which dictates that vaizards and arrancar operate similarly: arrancar > pure hollows so vaizard > pure shinigami.

That's right. You're misinterpreting my opinion. Like I said, the Vaizards SHOULD, by any logical viewpoint be superior to the normal captains. But Kubo hasn't shown us, so for argument's sake, you can't say they're better than the captains, and use the "lack of screentime" excuse. It just doesn't work, and until they show some clear, visual, or stated above captain level feats, you can't defend them. (well you can, but then it just becomes an opinion war, not a factual one)




I think he said something more along the lines of she'll regret making him lift his sword twice, but either way it doesn't prove he gave that first strike his all. In any case, you don't need to try and convince me of Harribel's durability; I already know she's very strong and durable. Like I said above, she was the released tercera after all, and she has hierro which the captains lack.

I wasn't trying to convince you. It's just something that's always stood out to me so I thought I'd mention it. We KNOW Komamura is a serious tank, but to see him and Halibel take the same number of hits from the guy who one shots people is still impressive to me.

El Samurai Guapo
December 15, 2010, 05:49 PM
I always saw it as a way for Kubo to progress because he was stumped as to how her sacrifice aspect was going to work :p

Be that as it may, canonically Aizen knew she was through, so he stepped in and finished the job himself.



The insanity comment was directed at him saying that Hiyori and Lisa were captain level, AND have masks. Meaning that without them, they're captain level, and with them they're even better. I'm sorry, but I can't find any evidence at all to support that.


I don't see how that is insane either. They were VC level (i.e. one step below captain level) 100 years prior to the current timeline and have been training to get stronger ever since. So why is it so hard to believe that they jumped to captain level? Would it be insane to think Renji, Shuuhei, or Izuru could be captain level 100 years from now?


Lisa keeping up with captains? Did I miss something?

We discussed it before, and I still see it as grasping at straws for off panel proof that, IF were true, means ALL of the Vaizards are top tier captain level. However, we've seen no actual proof of this, so I don't see it as valid.


Well as much as you seem to dislike lengthy posts, you really should go back and read some of Jackk's posts where he better explain's his reasonings.



Also, Lisa vs Halibel was one clash, a few lines of talking, and that's it. Lisa was also on the offensive, Halibel never actually ATTACKED her.


No. Most of their fight was off-panel but it lasted a while. It began here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-16.html
and the next time we see them is a several chapters later. Lisa is still shown fighting Harribel alone and sealed, except at some point she put her mask on off-panel. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-19.html


The proof is the fact that we didn't get to see anything spectacular from them. They didn't show everything they've got, but neither have all of the captains. They're a disappointment because they SHOULD have been a game changer in the fight, and aside from Barragan, none of them succeeded.

Well I think they were a game-changer because SS would have been screwed otherwise, just by the espada. I doubt Toushirou would have been able to trap Harribel again once she was released by WW. Soi Fon was obviously f*cked, and then Barragan would have moved onto other opponents. WW and Starrk could have teamed up and possibly even taken Shunsui out in bankai. Komamura also wouldn't have been able to go and fight Kaname because he'd be busy protecting the VCs from the army of menos and Fura. So yeah, the vaizards were a game-changer, except you should know they ultimately had to be defeated along with Gotei 13 for plot-reasons. Even Yamamoto, Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi got taken out without showing what they can really do. Ichigo is the main character so obviously it had to be him that ended the war with Aizen.


That's right. You're misinterpreting my opinion. Like I said, the Vaizards SHOULD, by any logical viewpoint be superior to the normal captains. But Kubo hasn't shown us, so for argument's sake, you can't say they're better than the captains, and use the "lack of screentime" excuse. It just doesn't work, and until they show some clear, visual, or stated above captain level feats, you can't defend them. (well you can, but then it just becomes an opinion war, not a factual one)

I didn't misinterpret your opinion. You were trying to use the espada being defeated than the captains as evidence for vaizards being inferior to the pure shinigami captains. I simply pointed out why that level of thought was flawed. It's funny though how the "lack of screen time" or lack of feats excuses seems to fly for other characters like Ukitake or Unohana though. I don't hear anyone being called insane for believing those two to be uber powerful. Face it, there's doubles standards going on in these forums.

Hell even within the vaizards you have Shinji, who isn't nearly as underrated as the rest of them. Granted, I agree that Shinji is strong, but going by feats he really hasn't done much more than the rest of em. People just like his character better. I don't think it's a coincidence that characters like Love, Rose, Lisa, and Hiyori are both relatively unpopular characters and underrated. I think I could easily prove this theory of mine too; if I made a thread entitled Kensei vs. Rose, I guarantee you Kensei would get far more votes than Rose because he's much more popular - despite having no feats that would indicate he's stronger.


I wasn't trying to convince you. It's just something that's always stood out to me so I thought I'd mention it. We KNOW Komamura is a serious tank, but to see him and Halibel take the same number of hits from the guy who one shots people is still impressive to me.

Yeah but like I said before, I seriously doubt Aizen gave that first hit on her his all. That slash across her stomach looked pretty shallow to begin with.

Takahashi
December 16, 2010, 11:10 PM
Be that as it may, canonically Aizen knew she was through, so he stepped in and finished the job himself.

Well of course she was through, not a single Shinigami there was actually killed, the only losses were on Aizen's side. She would lose eventually, but I think she'd still do well against the 3 in this topic. Win? Well I'm still not entirely sure, I voted for her just for underdog's sake, but at the least I think it still would be a tough win for the 3.





I don't see how that is insane either. They were VC level (i.e. one step below captain level) 100 years prior to the current timeline and have been training to get stronger ever since. So why is it so hard to believe that they jumped to captain level? Would it be insane to think Renji, Shuuhei, or Izuru could be captain level 100 years from now?

Considering the age of Shinigami, yeah. Although the well established VC's will be like their former captains soon enough, but that's for a story reason.






No. Most of their fight was off-panel but it lasted a while. It began here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-16.html
and the next time we see them is a several chapters later. Lisa is still shown fighting Harribel alone and sealed, except at some point she put her mask on off-panel. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-19.html

If you've seen my comments on Komamura and Kenpachi, you know how much I hate off panel things to be used in an argument :darn

At any rate, I'll give ya that I was wrong, and they fought for some indeterminable length of time. Although Halibel doesn't look all that impressed.



Well I think they were a game-changer because SS would have been screwed otherwise, just by the espada. I doubt Toushirou would have been able to trap Harribel again once she was released by WW. Soi Fon was obviously f*cked, and then Barragan would have moved onto other opponents. WW and Starrk could have teamed up and possibly even taken Shunsui out in bankai. Komamura also wouldn't have been able to go and fight Kaname because he'd be busy protecting the VCs from the army of menos and Fura. So yeah, the vaizards were a game-changer, except you should know they ultimately had to be defeated along with Gotei 13 for plot-reasons. Even Yamamoto, Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi got taken out without showing what they can really do. Ichigo is the main character so obviously it had to be him that ended the war with Aizen.

I've said many times before that Hachi and Shinji pulled their weight, so I sort of assumed that you wouldn't bother mentioning Barragan. Again though, like you said, it's one of those plot reasons that made sure the Gotei 13/Ichigo got to do the majority of everything.

Don't mistake this for me just hating on the Vaizards, I'm just explaining my reasoning (and likely other people) for not being all that impressed.




I didn't misinterpret your opinion. You were trying to use the espada being defeated than the captains as evidence for vaizards being inferior to the pure shinigami captains. I simply pointed out why that level of thought was flawed. It's funny though how the "lack of screen time" or lack of feats excuses seems to fly for other characters like Ukitake or Unohana though. I don't hear anyone being called insane for believing those two to be uber powerful. Face it, there's doubles standards going on in these forums.

Any particular reason you bring that up consistently in discussions with me? I've said before that while I don't think it's ridiculous to assume they're good, I'd never actually defend them in a discussion because they've never shown anything significant. It is strange though, you seem to really hate those two when they get hyped up with no proof, yet have no problem defending the Vaizards to death with the same minor evidence.


Hell even within the vaizards you have Shinji, who isn't nearly as underrated as the rest of them. Granted, I agree that Shinji is strong, but going by feats he really hasn't done much more than the rest of em. People just like his character better. I don't think it's a coincidence that characters like Love, Rose, Lisa, and Hiyori are both relatively unpopular characters and underrated. I think I could easily prove this theory of mine too; if I made a thread entitled Kensei vs. Rose, I guarantee you Kensei would get far more votes than Rose because he's much more popular - despite having no feats that would indicate he's stronger.

Well, Shinji also has a hax Shikai, and he's considered the leader of them all, so it's natural he'd be popular.

I'd like to say for the record though, I'd vote for Rose over Kensei in a second.




Yeah but like I said before, I seriously doubt Aizen gave that first hit on her his all. That slash across her stomach looked pretty shallow to begin with.

How do you judge whether his slash was shallow or not? None of Aizen's slashes look any worse than what we've seen other people suffer in ordinary fights, but the fact that his opponent is instantly dropped is what gives it the visual appeal. The exceptions are pretty few, like Komamura and his giant being cut down the middle, but as far as Halibel is concerned, I can't say her injuries looked any weaker than what took down everyone else.

I really have no intention of discussing this part any further though, it was just an interesting thing I noticed, I don't feel like going back and trying to find reasons to defend something that's completely irrelevant to convincing anyone.

Jackk
December 17, 2010, 02:28 AM
I can't believe people consider Lisa and Hiyori captain level.

Ironically enough, I can't believe people don't consider Lisa and Hiyori captain level of some sort.


Sorry, but if Lisa and Hiyori were captain level, then that means that Halibel fought the equivalent of 3 captains at once and was unharmed. Halibel is officially the new Primera then.

Not really, with all due respect... I think you're exaggerating a bit too much with your statement that Harribel would be the new primera espada for handling 3 captain level fighters. Why? because you're not telling the whole story. Seriously, for how long was Harribel "handling" them? If we check those manga pages, we would see that there was really no real fight going on yet. This is because after Lisa, hiyori, and hitsu released their shikais, we saw Aizen come in and immediately interrupted their fight, and proceeded to finish off Harribel himself. Aizen obviously saw that Harribel was going to go down as well. In fact, Aizen even says to Harribel: "your usefulness is up. It seems that none of you, are strong enough to fight under me (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-375/page024.html)." That to me says that Aizen saw that Harribel was about to be defeated soon too. Aizen saw her as useless and finished her off himself to get it over with.

In addition, just as El Samurai Guapo mentioned, fending off three shikais for a couple seconds doesn't make her the primera. Particularly with one shikai there (Toushirou's) already being proven obsolete against the weakest sealed espada.


Are Hiyori and Lisa weak? No. Are they above the average VC? Definitely.

But to say that they're captain level without even factoring in the mask's boost is INSANE (Jackk). Hell, even with the mask I don't see how they're captain level at all. If you think so, it's completely speculation, they have no captain level feats.

No, what you're stating is merely your opinion. I respect that, but I can't say that I agree with it. In any case, I really don't think that it's fair to call me insane for thinking that they are indeed captain level fighters. I have actually given several reasons, in other threads, with a very logical basis while also using events from the manga to support my claims/opinions. Although I suppose I should have restated them in here too...

As for "captain level feats" ... I had stated the following in another thread...but I'll state it here too because it's relevant to this thread's topic, regarding Lisa: (see the following spoiler)



I believe that Lisa is at captain level.

I also believe that she may have Bankai. Granted that's speculation on my part, but seriously... she was praised by Shunsui 100+ years ago (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-323-page-14.html), and now after so many years, I would be surprised if she never achieved Bankai at some point. We'll see...

Heck, Lisa's speed, 100+ years ago, was fast enough to allow her to keep up with two Captains (Love, and Rose) (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-3.html), as they all rushed to get to the forest to investigate the disappearance of Kensei and Mashiro etc. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-323-page-4.html)

Hachi wasn't so lucky...as he was left behind and arrived a little later due to him being slower. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-17.html)

Also, in FKT, Lisa tells Shunsui that she has gotten stronger. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-378-page-11.html) (I doubt she would be talking about her Mask only. Surely other skills of her must have improved as well etc.)

At the time of Ichigo's training for suppressing his inner hollow, Lisa was also holding her own, with only her sealed sword, against a berserk Bankai hollow Ichigo. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-219-page-13.html)

Lisa was actually holding her own against a released Harribel. Further, Lisa first attacked Harribel alone, and Lisa was fighting only with her sealed sword. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-16.html)

We then moved to other fights in the manga, and when it switched back to Lisa, we see that she was still fighting Harribel alone, and, at some point, Lisa put her Mask on, but was still fighting with her sealed Zanpakutou. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-19.html) It was only after Lisa released her Shikai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-20.html) that Hyori and Hitsugaya did the same and finally joined Lisa (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-21.html) in the fight against Harribel.

That's pretty impressive for Lisa, in my opinion.

Lisa's shikai may be a straight melee type, but who knows. It may have some abilities/techniques. In all fairness, Lisa didn't really get a chance to use it much. Her fight with Harribel was interrupted by Aizen, and when Lisa charged at Aizen, later on, Aizen defeated her without a problem...but Aizen defeated a Bankai Hitsugaya without a problem too...



Then, There is also this, which also applies to both Lisa and Hiyori: (see the following spoiler)





(Hachigen's win is by help of kido, not vizard abilities)
That can't be the case. Most of Hachi's "kido" and barrier abilities are techniques that he came up with himself using hollowfication after he became a vaizard.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-225/page012.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-228/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-237/page009.html (also notice that he holds reiatsu similar to that of hollows, without even wearing the Mask too.)

Apparently just the change of his reiatsu being that of a hybrid now allowed Hachi to create certain techniques and gain abilities he couldn't use before. According to Hachi his barriers cannot be dispelled by Shinigami Kido. Further, the barriers he used to encase Barragan (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-368/page018.html) and specially the barrier he used to encase his hand (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page014.html) in order to teleport it inside Barragan was all due to him being a vaizard. He did use his Mask (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page009.html) in one instance for defensive measurements against Barragan because the Mask still boosts his overall power and defensive capabilities, but the Mask was decayed and destroyed by Respira (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page011.html)... And still, the Mask was powerful enough to protect his face from respira. Had Hachi not used his Mask there, we would have been killed because his head would have been infected by respira, and no head = dead person...

How does this relate to Rose? Well... it means that the same principle of hybrid reiatsu while not wearing the Mask applies to Rose too(Hachi suggests this in the 3rd link that I posted above, where he says that they all have reiatsu similar to hollows etc.). Then while Rose puts on his Mask, he accesses a further boost in power/strength, speed, and defense. Even Ichigo displays hybrid hollow/shinigami reiatsu while not wearing his Mask.



Basically, from the spoiler above:

Lisa and Hiyori have a hybrid hollow/shinigami reiatsu (every vaizard has it)... this is a FACT. And they don't even need their hollow Masks to have this boosted reiatsu at all times. The Mask just lets them access more hollow powers and gives them a further boost in power/strength, speed, and defense.

Also, another great point that El Samurai Guapo had brought up: (see the following spoiler)



This is actually some really interesting stuff you've brought up here. I must have totally overlooked that bit with Hachi speaking about his barriers being an invention created post him becoming a vaizard. I actually think Rose exhibited some unique hybrid ability himself when he hypnotized that menos. That couldn't have been solely a zanpakutou technique as sealed zanpakutous are simply swords, yet musical abilities aren't exactly hollow material either...so the only thing I can think of is it's ability he gained from being both hollow and shinigami.

You know, when people speak about limits, and how Byakuya may have a higher limit than Rose (which I doubt), are they forgetting that the vaizards are the very result of what Urahara Kisuke originally wanted to achieve when he began his research and created the hogyouku? The vaizards naturally have much higher limits than pure shinigami because the hogyouku broke down the barrier between hollow and shinigami for them. And yes, they are complete hybrids; this was confirmed by Aizen himself. That bit about them being failed experiments or pseudo arrancar was just Aizen taunting them.

So even if Rose was already at the peak of his shinigami capabilities (which had to have been pretty high to begin with considering he was a captain and all), for the past 100 years he's definitely been able to climb much higher. I also agree that with Jackk that, while the mask fully brings out the hollow powers, hybrids at all times have unique reiatsu, which means they're likely stronger than they were prior to hybridization even without wearing the masks.



Basically, from the spoiler above:

Hollowfication may allow them to gain and create new techniques that they didn't have access to before becoming hollow/shinigami hybrids. Granted only Hachi has been stated to have created new techniques with his hollowfication so far, and we also have the case of Rose's musical abilities that he used with his sealed zanpakutou. The other vaizards still have more to show though. In any case, there is also the fact that the vaizard's hollow and shinigami barrier was broken...thus giving them a whole new limit they could reach for even higher levels of power. This is relevant in this thread because this higher limit of power applies to Lisa and hiyori! ... as well as their boosted hybrid reiatsu being active without them even using their Mask.

In addition to all that, we know that Hiyori and Lisa were VCs 100+ years ago, in the TBTP arc. (Lisa particularly seemed to be, at least, a very high level VC back then. She was praised by Shunsui 100+ years ago, and she was keeping up in speed with two other captains etc.) Furthermore, we know that not only did their shinigami/hollow barrier was broken giving them a whole new limit for higher power, not only did they attain this boosted hybrid reiatsu and a vaizard Mask for an even further boost, but it's also worth keeping in mind that the vaizards must have had all the motivation for training hard so that they could get their revenge on Aizen. Therefore, they were definitely training all this time for well over 100+ years. Heck they even have their own "training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html)" ...which they obviously built for the purpose of training and getting stronger together.

It's not insane to think that Hiyori and Lisa could be captain level after 100+ years of hard training, specially considering their boosted limit as well as hybrid reiatsu that they attained and trained with etc.

I really don't see a VC putting up a fight against a hollow Bankai Ichigo inside a small barrier, nor do I see a VC putting up a fight or holding their own against the released 3rd espada... specially with only a sealed sword. I think that there is sufficient evidence to believe that Lisa and Hiyori (specially Lisa) are captain level.

How strong or what tier within captain level are they exactly? I don't know. Particularly because I'm sure there is still a lot we haven't seen from both Lisa and Hiyori. Once we see more from them, we could gauge them even better. Nevertheless, I do believe from what we've seen and know about them so far... that they are captain level of some sort.

In any case, I will reiterate that I believe that Hitsu, Lisa, and Hiyori would win this fight against Harribel. I believe that once they get serious... the 3 of them would be too much for Harribel. Aizen himself must have realized that Harribel was about to go down soon, thus he interrupted their fight and finished her off himself etc.

Takahashi
December 17, 2010, 01:20 PM
Not really, with all due respect... I think you're exaggerating a bit too much with your statement that Harribel would be the new primera espada for handling 3 captain level fighters. Why? because you're not telling the whole story. Seriously, for how long was Harribel "handling" them? If we check those manga pages, we would see that there was really no real fight going on yet. This is because after Lisa, hiyori, and hitsu released their shikais, we saw Aizen come in and immediately interrupted their fight, and proceeded to finish off Harribel himself. Aizen obviously saw that Harribel was going to go down as well. In fact, Aizen even says to Harribel: "your usefulness is up. It seems that none of you, are strong enough to fight under me (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-375/page024.html)." That to me says that Aizen saw that Harribel was about to be defeated soon too. Aizen saw her as useless and finished her off himself to get it over with.

In addition, just as El Samurai Guapo mentioned, fending off three shikais for a couple seconds doesn't make her the primera. Particularly with one shikai there (Toushirou's) already being proven obsolete against the weakest sealed espada.


First of all, the Primera thing was a joke. Second, like I said to Samurai, a single clash from a combination attack of 3 captain level fighters would still be monstrously powerful, Halibel was handling herself, suffered no injuries, and did not look impressed in the slightest.

Like you said, Aizen finished her off to get it over with. I said it before, SS had no losses, Halibel was boned regardless, you can assume it was because of the 3, but I don't think that's necessarily true.




No, what you're stating is merely your opinion. I respect that, but I can't say that I agree with it. In any case, I really don't think that it's fair to call me insane for thinking that they are indeed captain level fighters. I have actually given several reasons, in other threads, with a very logical basis while also using events from the manga to support my claims/opinions. Although I suppose I should have restated them in here too...

You're taking this far too personally. Your idea IS insane to me, blows my mind, doesn't mean you have to take it like I'm calling you an idiot or something, I'm not.


And I'm sorry, but I didn't read your "captain feats list". I've heard what you've said on multiple occasions in different threads and I still don't buy it. So I don't think there's much of a point in us throwing out page long posts in an attempt to prove something that neither person is going to agree on.

Like most, it comes down to an opinion, and my opinion won't be changed until we see some clear evidence of their power. It seems like you're grasping at straws because you want to find any shred of evidence for the Vaizards. To me however, until Kubo shows me otherwise, I'll assume that they're not captain level because I have yet to see believable proof to show otherwise.

Jackk
December 17, 2010, 02:41 PM
First of all, the Primera thing was a joke. Second, like I said to Samurai, a single clash from a combination attack of 3 captain level fighters would still be monstrously powerful

Well I don't think that an attack from 3 captain level fighters would necessarily be monstrously powerful. Particularly because they were facing the released 3rd espada, and these 3 captain level fighters had just released their shikai... but we didn't really get to see them all seriously in action because Aizen interrupted their fight. Not to mention that Hitsugaya's shikai had already been proved pretty much useless against the released 3rd Espada. Remember that Hitsu even went Bankai as soon as Harribel released, and even then Harribel completely outclassed Hitsu in speed and in close combat, thus he had to keep his distance and fight with long range using his ice elemental zanpakutou...which happened to be the perfect match for Harribel's water attacks etc.


Halibel was handling herself, suffered no injuries, and did not look impressed in the slightest.

Again, for how long was harribel "handling herself" ? Wasn't it for a few seconds? There really was no fight at all once they released their shikais because Aizen came in and interrupted their fight and finished off Harribel himself. Also, neither Lisa nor Hiyori suffered any injuries either, and they didn't look impressed in the slightest either. That is natural though.... since none of them had gotten serious yet due to the fight being interrupted etc.

We didn't get a chance to see what zanpakutou abilities Lisa and Hiyori may have, we didn't get to see them shoot some ceros at Harribel, nor did we really get to seem them really struggling or doing some actual combination attacks yet. We didn't really see much of anything after they released their shikais because their fight was pretty much interrupted immediately by Aizen at that point.


Like you said, Aizen finished her off to get it over with. I said it before, SS had no losses, Halibel was boned regardless, you can assume it was because of the 3, but I don't think that's necessarily true.

Well this is true. Fair enough;however, I still think that it was because of the 3. I mean, it was those 3 that she was going to fighting right? Espadas had to go down and SS had no losses like you said, but how else would she go down had Aizen not interrupted the fight claiming that she was useless to him? I think that it's only logical to believe that those 3 would have been the ones to take her down had Aizen not interrupted their fight.


You're taking this far too personally. Your idea IS insane to me, blows my mind, doesn't mean you have to take it like I'm calling you an idiot or something, I'm not.

Ok, fair enough. I still think that it's not fair claim that my idea is insane if you're not even reading my arguments....


And I'm sorry, but I didn't read your "captain feats list". I've heard what you've said on multiple occasions in different threads and I still don't buy it. So I don't think there's much of a point in us throwing out page long posts in an attempt to prove something that neither person is going to agree on.

Well I didn't actually "re-type" everything I stated in my previous post in this thread...since most of it I had already stated in different but similar threads, thus I did quite a few "copy and pastes" ...although I did type in some other things to respond to you more directly. Anyway, I made that long post because I felt that I should at least list the reasons for my claims in this thread, and not for you alone...but for other people to see as well.

In addition, I do have to say that I feel that it's really not fair when you respond to me by simply stating that you don't agree with me, calling my ideas insane, and then outright telling me that you didn't even read all my arguments. I'm not really taking it very personal nor am I really offended, but I still don't think it's fair... that's all. I think that if you're going to respond to someone and tell them that you disagree with them, the least you could do is actually read their arguments and perhaps present something to counter them if possible and/or necessary. Otherwise, no offense...but you're not really adding much besides simply telling me that you disagree without even reading my arguments...


Like most, it comes down to an opinion, and my opinion won't be changed until we see some clear evidence of their power. It seems like you're grasping at straws because you want to find any shred of evidence for the Vaizards. To me however, until Kubo shows me otherwise, I'll assume that they're not captain level because I have yet to see believable proof to show otherwise.

I'm not grasping at straws. I know and do recognize that a lot of the posts that I've made have been incredibly long, but sometimes it's hard to give sufficient supporting evidence or information in just a couple of small paragraphs. In any case, if you would actually read the arguments presented in my posts.... you will probably realize that what I'm stating is really not insane. I agree with you that a lot does come down to opinion; however, the evidence supporting the notion that Lisa and Hiyori are captain level of some sort...seems pretty obvious to me. And I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Although granted most people in this forum do seem to think that the vaizards are weak compared to the current shinigami captains...simply because we haven't seen as much actual fighting from the vaizards yet. I actually see it as Kubo actually saving their stronger abilities for later in the story though, but maybe that's just me. Who knows.

El Samurai Guapo
December 17, 2010, 04:44 PM
Well of course she was through, not a single Shinigami there was actually killed, the only losses were on Aizen's side. She would lose eventually, but I think she'd still do well against the 3 in this topic. Win? Well I'm still not entirely sure, I voted for her just for underdog's sake, but at the least I think it still would be a tough win for the 3.

If you look at the panel where Aizen looks over and observes the clash between the 3 and Harribe (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-375/page020.html)l, it's obvious that was what caused Aizen to decide to intervene and kill her. You can see the look of discontent on his face by her performance against Toushirou and the two vaizards.



Considering the age of Shinigami, yeah. Although the well established VC's will be like their former captains soon enough, but that's for a story reason.

I don't think it takes anywhere near 100 years to jump from being a VC who's already mastered his shikai to being bankai-capable captain-level. According to Byakuya only takes 10 years to master bankai, so even Renji is at most 10 years away from being captain level. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he's already captain level by the next time we see him. I don't think it would be a "story reason" either, I just think you're exaggerating the amount of time it takes to climb to captain level. 100 years from now Izuru, Shuuhei, etc. will all be as old (or older) than Byakuya, Gin, Toushirou, and Soi Fon are now.

Of course you can always argue that Lisa or Hiyori's original limit as shinigami was too low for them to ever reach bankai, and while nothing so far suggests Lisa or Hiyori had such previous limitations, that argument flew out the window when they became vaizards (i.e. they can now go beyond their former shinigami limits). The entire purpose of hybridization was to do exactly that, allow a shinigami to go surpass his natural shinigami limits, hence why the only possibly excuse for Lisa or Hiyori to not have a bankai after a century would be laziness on their part.


If you've seen my comments on Komamura and Kenpachi, you know how much I hate off panel things to be used in an argument :darn

At any rate, I'll give ya that I was wrong, and they fought for some indeterminable length of time. Although Halibel doesn't look all that impressed.

I don't like it when fights happen off-panel myself, especially when someone gets defeated off-panel. In the case of Harribel and Lisa though, I think it's fairly obvious that the author wanted us to believe that Lisa with sealed sword and mask was on par with Harribel. I think we then saw Lisa release her shikai to gain the advantage. Lisa didn't look all that impressed by Harribel either.


I've said many times before that Hachi and Shinji pulled their weight, so I sort of assumed that you wouldn't bother mentioning Barragan. Again though, like you said, it's one of those plot reasons that made sure the Gotei 13/Ichigo got to do the majority of everything.

Uhh, if there's any one of the vaizards that didn't pull his weight is was Shinji. Considering what the guy is capable of, Shinji could have contributed a lot more. I think Love, Rose, Lisa, Hiyori, Mashiro, and Kensei played parts too though. It's a toss up whether or not bankai Shunsui would have been able to defeat Starrk and Wonderweiss working together. Don't think Toushirou was capable of defeating Harribel once she was freed either.


Any particular reason you bring that up consistently in discussions with me? I've said before that while I don't think it's ridiculous to assume they're good, I'd never actually defend them in a discussion because they've never shown anything significant. It is strange though, you seem to really hate those two when they get hyped up with no proof, yet have no problem defending the Vaizards to death with the same minor evidence.

No, it's more like I hate the double standard. If people want to believe those two are uber powerful, fine, but why is it that nobody says the idea of Unohana being the second strongest captain is insane?



Well, Shinji also has a hax Shikai, and he's considered the leader of them all, so it's natural he'd be popular.

I'd like to say for the record though, I'd vote for Rose over Kensei in a second.

Yeah, I know the reasons why Shinji is popular, what I'm saying is that he's not as underrated as the others because he's popular. Same with Kensei, although not to the degree of Shinji. The rest of the vaizards are pretty unpopular, particularly compared to the current gotei captains and VCs.


How do you judge whether his slash was shallow or not? None of Aizen's slashes look any worse than what we've seen other people suffer in ordinary fights, but the fact that his opponent is instantly dropped is what gives it the visual appeal. The exceptions are pretty few, like Komamura and his giant being cut down the middle, but as far as Halibel is concerned, I can't say her injuries looked any weaker than what took down everyone else.

I really have no intention of discussing this part any further though, it was just an interesting thing I noticed, I don't feel like going back and trying to find reasons to defend something that's completely irrelevant to convincing anyone.

Top left panel here: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-376/page003.html. A cut like that across the abdomen isn't something I'd expect to one-shot a high-level bleach character. That's nothing like the slash across the abdomen that Aizen gave to Ichigo back in SS where he almost cut him in half.

Takahashi
December 17, 2010, 05:32 PM
Well I don't think that an attack from 3 captain level fighters would necessarily be monstrously powerful. Particularly because they were facing the released 3rd espada, and these 3 captain level fighters had just released their shikai... but we didn't really get to see them all seriously in action because Aizen interrupted their fight. Not to mention that Hitsugaya's shikai had already been proved pretty much useless against the released 3rd Espada. Remember that Hitsu even went Bankai as soon as Harribel released, and even then Harribel completely outclassed Hitsu in speed and in close combat, thus he had to keep his distance and fight with long range using his ice elemental zanpakutou...which happened to be the perfect match for Harribel's water attacks etc.

That kind of sounds like a defense of Halibel :blink




Again, for how long was harribel "handling herself" ? Wasn't it for a few seconds? There really was no fight at all once they released their shikais because Aizen came in and interrupted their fight and finished off Harribel himself. Also, neither Lisa nor Hiyori suffered any injuries either, and they didn't look impressed in the slightest either. That is natural though.... since none of them had gotten serious yet due to the fight being interrupted etc.

It was a pretty casual fight, regardless, I don't think anyone has ever fought 3 opponents at once before. (unless you count Ichigo thrashing the VC's)

I still see it as pretty impressive, although not definitive.



We didn't get a chance to see what zanpakutou abilities Lisa and Hiyori may have, we didn't get to see them shoot some ceros at Harribel, nor did we really get to seem them really struggling or doing some actual combination attacks yet. We didn't really see much of anything after they released their shikais because their fight was pretty much interrupted immediately by Aizen at that point.

On the flip side of that, we saw no abilities from Halibel either. Considering one of her attacks could have killed Hitsugaya outright, and the size of the water that gets thrown around, I think her ability works well when fighting multiple opponents.




Well this is true. Fair enough;however, I still think that it was because of the 3. I mean, it was those 3 that she was going to fighting right? Espadas had to go down and SS had no losses like you said, but how else would she go down had Aizen not interrupted the fight claiming that she was useless to him? I think that it's only logical to believe that those 3 would have been the ones to take her down had Aizen not interrupted their fight.

I'd imagine she'd have still done well considering Hitsu had used up basically all he had in Bankai, she'd pretty much just be fighting 3 Shikai attackers. Also, like someone else said, there would be more moisture around, which as Hitsugaya said, would prepare for her attack.




In addition, I do have to say that I feel that it's really not fair when you respond to me by simply stating that you don't agree with me, calling my ideas insane, and then outright telling me that you didn't even read all my arguments. I'm not really taking it very personal nor am I really offended, but I still don't think it's fair... that's all. I think that if you're going to respond to someone and tell them that you disagree with them, the least you could do is actually read their arguments and perhaps present something to counter them if possible and/or necessary. Otherwise, no offense...but you're not really adding much besides simply telling me that you disagree without even reading my arguments...

I've argued with you extensively in topics regarding the Vaizards. You're acting like this is the first time you've brought up the idea with me. I'm not ignoring it, because I have heard MANY of your reasons before. Like I said, this is one of those things where there's no way anyone is going to win here. I'm not disrespecting you by not reading your most recent reasoning, unless you're saying that the last post has much better proof than what you've said before. If there's no end all, definitive point to it, then obviously it won't change my opinion if your previous ones were unable to.


If the topic isn't about the Vaizards, I usually agree with you and Samurai. :darn