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View Full Version : Team Nnoitra and Luppi vs Grimmjow and Nelliel



Omiem
December 19, 2010, 10:55 AM
Location: Inside of Las Noches(Where Ichigo and Grimmjow fought)

Starting State: Released

State of Mind: Desire to kill

Knowledge: None

ninjaman
December 19, 2010, 11:10 AM
luppi sux.. grim and nel wins

Omiem
December 19, 2010, 11:28 AM
^Figure someone would say that. Anyways, don't forget that Luppi took down HItsugaya pretty easily. If he just followed through with his attack, then Hitsugaya would've potentially died. The state of mind in this match is the desire to kill, so Luppi isn't gonna repeat the same mistake. All 4 fighters are around the same level in my opinion.

Zehahaha
December 19, 2010, 12:39 PM
^Figure someone would say that. Anyways, don't forget that Luppi took down HItsugaya pretty easily. If he just followed through with his attack, then Hitsugaya would've potentially died. The state of mind in this match is the desire to kill, so Luppi isn't gonna repeat the same mistake. All 4 fighters are around the same level in my opinion.

How are we talking same level when he got annihilated by just one Cero ? Not even Ulqui could annihilate Grimmjow's arm with a Cero. Luppi is weak compared to Grimmjow, and I think that even Hitsugaya would have defeated him...

But then again, we saw that Nelliel in her released from didn't do any damage to Nnoitora, she threw her lance, and it wasn't really able to criticaly injure Nnoitora. True that she managed to hurt him something that Kenpachi couldn't do at first, but yeah, I don't think she can defeat him.

And Nnoitora vs Grimmjow... Nnoitora would win for sure, he's not 5th Espada for nothing, so I think that he'd win against him too, Grimmjow didn't show anything really special that would be able to seriously injure Nnoitora (maybe his last attack could do something...)

So I think that Luppi would be defeated and it will be more Grimmjow and Nelliel Vs Nnoitora IMO

Omiem
December 19, 2010, 02:16 PM
How are we talking same level when he got annihilated by just one Cero ? Not even Ulqui could annihilate Grimmjow's arm with a Cero. Luppi is weak compared to Grimmjow, and I think that even Hitsugaya would have defeated him...
-Luppi was seriously injured after taking SH from Hitsugaya. Not to mention that he was caught off guard as well. Those two factors are the main reason why Luppi died.

-Ulquiorra didn't even get a chance to activate the full power of his Cero.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-278-page-10.html
As you can see, Grimmjow blocked it with his hand.

-Hitsugaya looked like he was in a losing position after taking those 8 arms, so the odds would've favor Luppi if he was in a desire to kill in that situation. Only reason why Hisugaya won is because he had enough time to prepare his ultimate attack.

And Nnoitora vs Grimmjow... Nnoitora would win for sure, he's not 5th Espada for nothing, so I think that he'd win against him too, Grimmjow didn't show anything really special that would be able to seriously injure Nnoitora (maybe his last attack could do something...)
Luppi's not the 6th Espada for nothing =)

exacta
December 19, 2010, 02:25 PM
Grimmjow's cero was pointblank, those are usually fatal.

Neliel can definitely penetrate Nnoitra's hierro. She had Nnoitra outmatched when she released too, but he was still in his sealed form. I wonder if she could beat a released Nnoitra. I guess she probably could, only because she was always supposed to be better than Nnoitra.

I think Grimmjow could handle Luppi, he could slice through those tentacles with his claws very easily, and since Luppi can't regenerate the tentacles from what we've seen, Desgarron would probably finish him off.

Plus, Grimmjow and Neliels releases seem to bring more to the table. Nnoitra is just six arms and Luppi is just 8 tentacles. Grimmjow and Neliel actually have attacks/techniques.

El Samurai Guapo
December 19, 2010, 03:05 PM
I don't think the fact that Neliel released against Nnoitora first meant she was losing, IMO while sealed she had the upper hand and was easily able to cut Nnoitora (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html)(which indicates her reiatsu was higher). She was able to stop Nnoitora's cero with her hand (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-18.html)just like Kenpachi as well (though unlike Kenpachi she can also absorb it). It also seems like she had the speed advantage (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html). I don't think Nnoitora releasing would have given him the upper hand either. All his release really did was give him more arms that he could regenerate. Neliel only got the chance to use one move after she released (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-8.html) and it completely overpowered Nnoitora (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html).

Let's not forget it was he first time fighting in many years, and her mask was still cracked (which is why she ended up reverting back to a child in the midst of pwning Nnoitora). Neliel herself recognized that she would be straining herself by releasing (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-295-page-18.html)so soon after returning to her normal body. She was the former tercera espada, I think once Nel gets her groove back she's can easily solo the two. Nnoitora himself knew he was weaker than her (she defeated him multiple times in the past) which is why he had to resort plotting with with Szayel to take her out. With Grimmjow on her team though.... it's a rape. Grimmjow >>>>>>> Luppi in 3 seconds, and then it quickly becomes a two on one against an opponent Nel could most likely solo herself anyway. Seriously, Luppi? You could have at least given Nnoitora R1 Ulquiorra or something.

Omiem
December 19, 2010, 04:18 PM
I don't think the fact that Neliel released against Nnoitora first meant she was losing, IMO while sealed she had the upper hand and was easily able to cut Nnoitora (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html)(which indicates her reiatsu was higher).She was able to stop Nnoitora's cero with her hand (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-18.html)just like Kenpachi as well (though unlike Kenpachi she can also absorb it). It also seems like she had the speed advantage (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html). I don't think Nnoitora releasing would have given him the upper hand either. All his release really did was give him more arms that he could regenerate. Neliel only got the chance to use one move after she released (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-8.html) and it completely overpowered Nnoitora (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html).

Let's not forget it was he first time fighting in many years, and her mask was still cracked (which is why she ended up reverting back to a child in the midst of pwning Nnoitora). Neliel herself recognized that she would be straining herself by releasing (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-295-page-18.html)so soon after returning to her normal body. She was the former tercera espada, I think once Nel gets her groove back she's can easily solo the two. Nnoitora himself knew he was weaker than her (she defeated him multiple times in the past) which is why he had to resort plotting with with Szayel to take her out. With Grimmjow on her team though.... it's a rape. Grimmjow >>>>>>> Luppi in 3 seconds, and then it quickly becomes a two on one against an opponent Nel could most likely solo herself anyway. Seriously, Luppi? You could have at least given Nnoitora R1 Ulquiorra or something.
-Nelliel even in her released couldn't injure a sealed Nnoitra.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-18.html
If you look at his expression, Nnoitra seems to be toying with her.

-Released would also give Nnoitra enhance strength seeing how he threw Kenpachi around. I can easily see him deflecting Lanzador Verde or cutting through Desgarron like butter with his six scythes. I would also assume that his Hierro gets enhanced too seeing how he tanked Kenpachi's Kendo.

-You people are seriously underestimating Luppi. He took out Hitsugaya in a matter of seconds. The fact that Hitsugaya couldn't react is due to the speed of those tentacles. I'll agree that Luppi is weaker than Grimmjow(not because he was taken out so easily), but I'm pretty sure he would be more than a match for Nelliel. I mean, she hasn't display any feats that would put her around the league of Ulquiorra or Harribel. In my opinion, she would be around 6th Espada level.

Zehahaha
December 19, 2010, 05:01 PM
-Luppi was seriously injured after taking SH from Hitsugaya. Not to mention that he was caught off guard as well. Those two factors are the main reason why Luppi died.

-Ulquiorra didn't even get a chance to activate the full power of his Cero.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-278-page-10.html
As you can see, Grimmjow blocked it with his hand.

-Hitsugaya looked like he was in a losing position after taking those 8 arms, so the odds would've favor Luppi if he was in a desire to kill in that situation. Only reason why Hisugaya won is because he had enough time to prepare his ultimate attack.

Luppi's not the 6th Espada for nothing =)


I don't know... Let's say they're equal, even if he was caught off guard, he wouldn't be killed the way Grimmjow did to him even if he was injured. And he wasn't that injured either...

No matter how much I think about it, Grimmjow seems to be more powerful than Luppi, but that's just the impression that I got anyway. Even if a blank point cero is powerful, to literally annhilate the upper half of Luppi like that, seems like he's way more powerful than him.

And he didn't take out Hitsugaya, i'm sorry, but Hitsugaya wasn't that injured by his attack, if he wanted, he could've went back to the battlefield and fight directly Luppi, but no, he saw a chance, he used, and literally sealed Luppi. I don't blame Hitsu about that, there was smoke, he couldn't even see all of his tentacles, no way he could've predicted that he had that many tentacle.

kulash05
December 19, 2010, 06:25 PM
Something i think that needs to be answered by the original thread writer before we can make any real decision is the question about whether or not Nel will suffer from the return to a child problem she had before.

Another point is that Luppi was blown away after getting stabbed Grimmjow. I think that's why nothing was left from the Cero. So caught off guard and then wasted when he was on door's death doesn't say much. Keep in mind that Luppi was able to fight basically three VC without so much as breaking a sweat. (I know that technically the two from 11th squad aren't VC but they fight on that level.)

I still throw my vote to Nel/Grimmjow team mostly because Luppi is to much of a psychopath to be effective in a fight, and Nel already knows just about everything on NNoritra fighting style. Throw in the fact that he gets really hot headed about fighting her, and he's bound to make mistakes.

Evil3ye
December 19, 2010, 07:03 PM
It might be a good fight if Nelliel is not threaten to lose her adult form (which I assume she isn't :confused)

So, then we saw that Grimmjow is significantly faster than Luppi, released that is, and was able to caught him by surprise prerelease and kill him. So the Luppi/Grimmjow fight would be point for Grimmjow.

Then again he seemed to be much weaker than Nnoitra, to judge them by feats and their performance in released fights. Also, while Nelliel was able could throw him around Las Noches after her release, it didn't look like she was able to deal him damage. For me it looked like he was pretty vital afterwards. And let us not forget that he wasn't even released.

However, he seemed to be very frightened of her release, which could hint at him being weaker. The fear could have been caused by past memories also, though I from the flashbacks we didn't get to know whether she ever fought him in release.

Anyways, judging by their last fight, I'd say Nnoitra is stronger than her, thus he and Ruppi would win this.

Omiem
December 19, 2010, 07:05 PM
I don't know... Let's say they're equal, even if he was caught off guard, he wouldn't be killed the way Grimmjow did to him even if he was injured. And he wasn't that injured either...
-Getting caught off guard makes a big difference. For example. Yammy had the 2nd strongest Hierro among the Espadas. Yet, he had his arm easily sliced off by Ichigo's sword. Why, you may ask? Well the data book confirms that the only reason why Yammy had his arm lopped off is because he was misreading his opponent. This implies that Hierro can have either a high effect or a low effect depending on where the user concentrates their Reiryoku.

-Apparently SH was strong enough to revert Luppi from release back to sealed form. I'd say he was pretty beaten down, don't you think?

No matter how much I think about it, Grimmjow seems to be more powerful than Luppi, but that's just the impression that I got anyway. Even if a blank point cero is powerful, to literally annhilate the upper half of Luppi like that, seems like he's way more powerful than him.
I agree that Luppi is weaker than Grimmjow, but he should give Nelliel a tough challenge at the very least.

And he didn't take out Hitsugaya, i'm sorry, but Hitsugaya wasn't that injured by his attack, if he wanted, he could've went back to the battlefield and fight directly Luppi, but no, he saw a chance, he used, and literally sealed Luppi. I don't blame Hitsu about that, there was smoke, he couldn't even see all of his tentacles, no way he could've predicted that he had that many tentacle.
-First off, there wasn't any smoke that was blocking Hitsugaya's sight.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-8.html

-Secondly, Luppi didn't even use his spikes on Hitsugaya. I'm pretty sure if he did that, then our little ice boy here would've been critically injured.

Something i think that needs to be answered by the original thread writer before we can make any real decision is the question about whether or not Nel will suffer from the return to a child problem she had before.
She won't suffer that problem.

El Samurai Guapo
December 19, 2010, 11:17 PM
-Nelliel even in her released couldn't injure a sealed Nnoitra.

You know she couldn't because...?

You speak as if they fought for a notable amount of time and she was unable to injure him. Literally all she did post releasing was chuck her spear thing which easily pierced through Nnoitora's...whatever the hell you call that giant crescent shaped thing, and stabbed him. Still, she was able to cut him while sealed so no doubt she could injure him after releasing as well.



http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-18.html
If you look at his expression, Nnoitra seems to be toying with her.

Who cares about Nnoitora's expression. He was a cocky a-hole who thought he was the strongest being in existence. He had the same attitude during most of his fight with Kenpachi. And look at Neliel, she was confident she was going to win. I trust her more than Neliel. Heck she's already fought and beaten the guy before, she didn't seem impressed at all by Nnoitora's supposed progress.


-Released would also give Nnoitra enhance strength seeing how he threw Kenpachi around. I can easily see him deflecting Lanzador Verde or cutting through Desgarron like butter with his six scythes. I would also assume that his Hierro gets enhanced too seeing how he tanked Kenpachi's Kendo.

He didn't tank Kenpachi's kendo, that single attack literally ended him. After releasing and closing up all his wounds, Kenpachi literally didn't land a single hit on Nnoitora up until the kendo one. So to say his hierro increased is mere speculation.


-You people are seriously underestimating Luppi. He took out Hitsugaya in a matter of seconds. The fact that Hitsugaya couldn't react is due to the speed of those tentacles. I'll agree that Luppi is weaker than Grimmjow(not because he was taken out so easily), but I'm pretty sure he would be more than a match for Nelliel. I mean, she hasn't display any feats that would put her around the league of Ulquiorra or Harribel. In my opinion, she would be around 6th Espada level.

Well you can think what you want, I don't put to much faith into what a guy like Nnoitora says. I don't believe he got so much more powerful that he could defeat someone who was previously able to defeat him without breaking a sweat (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-294-page-7.html). Moreover, not only did we get to see very little of what Neliel could do, she was obviously rusty and straining herself by releasing (by her own admission) so soon after returning to her body after many years. Her mask was still cracked as well. I think if she got healed back to 100% by Orihime and had a chance to get used to her adult body:hearts again, she would be around the level she was ranked as.

conn-man
December 20, 2010, 01:31 AM
I've been wanting to put nel, nnoitra, and luppi in a thread for a while but couldnt pick opponents. I like the set up you made here.

Luppi isn't that weak, I'm sure his reiatsu was 6th espada level. He seems like he had bad hierro and wasn't to smart but if he did that eight tentacle attack with the spikes out I'm sure it would hurt grimmjow and even nel.

nnoitra is awesome, hardest hierro, big physical strength, and the only other espada that can regenerate, but it seemed like it has a lesser limit than ulquiorras.

still nel can cut and pierce him easily and I don't think grimmjow would just bounce off of him.

dessgaron should be enough to overwhelme luppi and lanza verde could easily KO him. then they could handle nnoitra together. But a big slash from nnoitra would really hurt either of them.

still nel and grimm are speedsters and noi and luppi are pretty slow. I think that's a big disadvantage to have two fast vs two slow.

Evil3ye
December 20, 2010, 09:17 AM
nnoitra is awesome, hardest hierro, big physical strength, and the only other espada that can regenerate, but it seemed like it has a lesser limit than ulquiorras.
It'S not a special feat actually. Every single Arrancar regenerates its wounds automatically when releaseing. Damage dealt in resurrection though is permanent (Ulquiorra as only exception here, who has the instand regenerate ability in released form), that was explained by Sunderwitch.

conn-man
December 20, 2010, 10:08 AM
It'S not a special feat actually. Every single Arrancar regenerates its wounds automatically when releaseing. Damage dealt in resurrection though is permanent (Ulquiorra as only exception here, who has the instand regenerate ability in released form), that was explained by Sunderwitch.

I know the releasing heals. But nnoitra, like ulquiorra, is the only other espada that uses hsr in released form. Honestly though it seemed limited to just his arms and doesn't seem like he can simply do it repeatedly.

Omiem
December 20, 2010, 11:51 AM
You know she couldn't because...?

You speak as if they fought for a notable amount of time and she was unable to injure him. Literally all she did post releasing was chuck her spear thing which easily pierced through Nnoitora's...whatever the hell you call that giant crescent shaped thing, and stabbed him. Still, she was able to cut him while sealed so no doubt she could injure him after releasing as well.
-First off, that cut by Nelliel was more of a scratch to Nnoitra than a serious wound.

-Secondly, Nelliel never stabbed Nnoitra. Her Lanzador Verde didn't even make a mere scratch judging from the panel(though it did pierce through his blade). In my opinion, the only reason why her sealed sword manage to pierce his Hierro is because he was caught off guard. Kind of like how Yammy(2nd Strongest Hierro) was when he had his arm sliced off by Ichigo. It's even stated in the data book, which implies that Hierro can have either a high/low effect depending on where the user concentrates their Reiryoku. Nnoitra even mentions that he wasn't on his guard to some extent. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html

-Now the state of mind in this battle is the desire to kill, so Nnoitra isn't gonna slack off against Nelliel. With that in mind, do you really think she can seriously injure a released Nnoitra even though her strongest attack couldn't draw a scratch?

-It doesn't matter if they didn't fight a notable amount of time. The point I'm trying to emphasize is that Nelliel hasn't display anything feat wise that can seriously injure a sealed Nnoitra. Not to mention his release.

Who cares about Nnoitora's expression. He was a cocky a-hole who thought he was the strongest being in existence. He had the same attitude during most of his fight with Kenpachi. And look at Neliel, she was confident she was going to win. I trust her more than Neliel. Heck she's already fought and beaten the guy before, she didn't seem impressed at all by Nnoitora's supposed progress.
-After taking Nelliel's Lanzador Verde, Nnoitra's expression pretty much told me that he wasn't too impressed with her either. You can say that Nelliel was confident. However, it doesn't really mean that the momentum was truly on her swing, especially since Nnoitra hasn't even release his sword yet.

-Doesn't matter if she already fought and beaten Nnoitra before.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-10.html

-Overall, this point is pretty much based our own opinions and popularity. You don't have to agree with mines, and I won't agree with yours. Moving on.

He didn't tank Kenpachi's kendo, that single attack literally ended him. After releasing and closing up all his wounds, Kenpachi literally didn't land a single hit on Nnoitora up until the kendo one. So to say his hierro increased is mere speculation.
-You don't consider this a tanking feat?
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-313-page-11.html

-After checking their battle, I see that your were right about Kenpachi only landing a single hit after Nnoitra's released. So I'll concede to your reasoning, but it doesn't really matter. Fact is, Nelliel hasn't shown anything that can seriously injure a sealed Nnoitra.

-One thing that does matter is Nnoitra's increased physical strength after his released. With this in mind, neither Nelliel nor Grimmjow will have an easy time hurting him.

Well you can think what you want, I don't put to much faith into what a guy like Nnoitora says. I don't believe he got so much more powerful that he could defeat someone who was previously able to defeat him without breaking a sweat (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-294-page-7.html). Moreover, not only did we get to see very little of what Neliel could do, she was obviously rusty and straining herself by releasing (by her own admission) so soon after returning to her body after many years. Her mask was still cracked as well. I think if she got healed back to 100% by Orihime and had a chance to get used to her adult body:hearts again, she would be around the level she was ranked as.
-At the same time, you can think what you want as well. So it's our own opinions.

-Like I said before, their past fights don't matter. Only the present does.

-Sure she was rusty and straining herself, but nothing changes the fact that she hasn't display any feats around the 4th or 5th Espada level if that's what your implying. It's only your speculation that she would be at that level, but I'm the type of person who goes strictly by feats, sorry.

still nel can cut and pierce him easily and I don't think grimmjow would just bounce off of him.

dessgaron should be enough to overwhelme luppi and lanza verde could easily KO him. then they could handle nnoitra together. But a big slash from nnoitra would really hurt either of them.

still nel and grimm are speedsters and noi and luppi are pretty slow. I think that's a big disadvantage to have two fast vs two slow.
-I personally don't think Nelliel can easily pierce through Nnoitra's Hierro after seeing how her strongest attack couldn't even make a scratch. Especially if Nnoitra releases. Grimmjow could cut his Hierro with Dessgaron, but I see that technique getting sliced through like butter due to Nnoitra's strength.

-I agree that Dessgaron and Lanza Verde would seriously hurt Luppi, but what about vice versa? I don't think either Grimmjow nor Nelliel would shrug off those tentacles. Especially if Luppi decides to use those spikes.

-Luppi's not that slow in terms of his attack. Technically, his tentacles were fast enough to blitz Hitsugaya. They can also extend and contract, which will enable Luppi to fight from mid-long range.

El Samurai Guapo
December 20, 2010, 02:09 PM
-First off, that cut by Nelliel was more of a scratch to Nnoitra than a serious wound.

Yeah it was, but it's proof that she can cut him nonetheless.


-Secondly, Nelliel never stabbed Nnoitra. Her Lanzador Verde didn't even make a mere scratch judging from the panel(though it did pierce through his blade). In my opinion, the only reason why her sealed sword manage to pierce his Hierro is because he was caught off guard. Kind of like how Yammy(2nd Strongest Hierro) was when he had his arm sliced off by Ichigo. It's even stated in the data book, which implies that Hierro can have either a high/low effect depending on where the user concentrates their Reiryoku. Nnoitra even mentions that he wasn't on his guard to some extent. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html

I disagree, I don't think Yammi is a wise comparison because he jumps from the 10th to the 0 espada when he releases. In other words, I seriously doubt Yammi's hierro is the second strongest prior to releasing. Hell, even the form we saw Ichigo, Kenpachi, and Byakuya fight, he definitely did not display the second strongest Hierro. Moreover, I don't believe that hierro loses durability when an arrancar isn't focused. Hierro is not the same as when shinigami harden their reiatsu to take attacks, hierro is more of a permanently active trait that arrancar if you ask me.


-Now the state of mind in this battle is the desire to kill, so Nnoitra isn't gonna slack off against Nelliel. With that in mind, do you really think she can seriously injure a released Nnoitra even though her strongest attack couldn't draw a scratch?

Well I must have missed the part where she called lanzador verde her strongest attack...but yes. That single attack we saw from her released form easily overpowered Nnoitora and went right through his blade (though that obviously slowed the lance down). On the flip side, Nnoitora never once injured released or sealed Neliel.


-It doesn't matter if they didn't fight a notable amount of time. The point I'm trying to emphasize is that Nelliel hasn't shown anything feat wise that can seriously injure a sealed Nnoitra. Not to mention his release.

It actually does matter; we saw like 15 seconds of her released form and you're already throwing her under the bus because she failed to 1HKO Nnoitora? And again, Nnoitora has no feats that show us he could defeat Neliel. The only people Nnoitora has ever beat up on are a half-dead Grimmjow, half-dead Ichigo, and a dude that purposely lets himself get sliced up to drag out fights as long as possible.


-Doesn't matter if she already fought and beaten Nnoitra before.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-10.html

It does matter, because judging by the panels that depict the outcome of their fight, Neliel is completely unscathed while Nnoitora is on his knees covered in blood - which means she was able to previously throttle him without breaking a sweat. The only thing was have that suggests Nnoitora has gotten so much stronger that he can now defeat her are the words of Nnoitora himself; a character who I wouldn't put much trust in.



-You don't consider this a tanking feat?
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-313-page-11.html

No. That's just Nnoitora getting up despite being half-dead. That's no more a tanking feat than this is: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-12.html.


Fact is, Nelliel hasn't shown anything that can seriously injure a sealed Nnoitra.

Neither has Nnoitora shown he's capable of injuring Neliel at all.


-One thing that does matter is Nnoitra's increased physical strength after his released. With this in mind, neither Nelliel nor Grimmjow will have an easy time hurting him.

Grimmjow definitely would have a difficult time, but it's tough to say with Neliel. I say she could, based on the fact that she was previously way stronger than him, and was still doing fairly well in their most recent fight despite being out of practice and having her mask still cracked.



-Sure she was rusty and straining herself, but nothing changes the fact that she hasn't display any feats around the 4th or 5th Espada level if that's what your implying. It's only your speculation that she would be at that level, but I'm the type of person who goes strictly by feats, sorry.

Well then you've kind of loaded the dice here, we've seen very little from Neliel so obviously feat-wise she's at a disadvantage in this thread. With Kubo saying that bleach still has 10 years to go though, I don't doubt we'll get to see more of Neliel in the future. At this point the only thing we can do is speculate on her true strength though, and IMO she's at least at the level of Harribel.


-I personally don't think Nelliel can easily pierce through Nnoitra's Hierro after seeing how her strongest attack couldn't even make a scratch. Especially if Nnoitra releases. Grimmjow could cut his Hierro with Dessgaron, but I see that technique getting sliced through like butter due to Nnoitra's strength.

Where was it stated that was her strongest attack? And for all you know it could pierce his hierro if he doesn't slow the attack down first by blocking with his own weapon.

Takahashi
December 20, 2010, 03:24 PM
I disagree, I don't think Yammi is a wise comparison because he jumps from the 10th to the 0 espada when he releases. In other words, I seriously doubt Yammi's hierro is the second strongest prior to releasing. Hell, even the form we saw Ichigo, Kenpachi, and Byakuya fight, he definitely did not display the second strongest Hierro. Moreover, I don't believe that hierro loses durability when an arrancar isn't focused. Hierro is not the same as when shinigami harden their reiatsu to take attacks, hierro is more of a permanently active trait that arrancar if you ask me.

Actually, Hierro does require conscious activation. Although I do agree that Yammy definitely NEVER displayed the second best Hierro, or even third, or fourth, or.......


I like this thread, it's very different than what we usually see.

On my opinion, I'd give it to Grim and Nelliel more often than not. Luppi's got a nice ability capable of attacking several people at once, but it's REALLY hard to disregard the one shot he received from Grim. Although things would obviously not happen the same way in a 2 v 2, I think Luppi's got enough power to keep Grimm somewhat defensive, but would lose eventually.

As far as the Nelliel and Noir, that's a tough call. I'm not going to look through their whole fight, but if I recall correctly, Nel only did some damage to Noir after she released. I don't think either really hurt each other when they weren't released, so I don't think we can put Nel THAT much higher than Noir just because an unreleased Espada got beaten by a released Espada.

Omiem
December 20, 2010, 06:23 PM
Yeah it was, but it's proof that she can cut him nonetheless.
It's not proof that she can seriously injure him though. Unless of course, Nnoitra starts slacking off.

I disagree, I don't think Yammi is a wise comparison because he jumps from the 10th to the 0 espada when he releases. In other words, I seriously doubt Yammi's hierro is the second strongest prior to releasing. Hell, even the form we saw Ichigo, Kenpachi, and Byakuya fight, he definitely did not display the second strongest Hierro. Moreover, I don't believe that hierro loses durability when an arrancar isn't focused. Hierro is not the same as when shinigami harden their reiatsu to take attacks, hierro is more of a permanently active trait that arrancar if you ask me.
-Wait, so if Nnoitra's Hierro being enhanced after his release is mere speculation, then wouldn't the same logic apply to Yammy? Don't forget that the Espadas were ranked only by reiatsu, not Hierro. Otherwise, Nnoitra would've been the Cero Espada.

-IMO, the reason why R1 Yammy didn't display an impressive Hierro is because Kenpachi was already adapted to Nnoitra's Hierro. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-309-page-16.html
You can also add the fact of Yammy's sloppy personality which was even mentioned in the Character Book.

-It doesn't even matter if sealed Yammy had the 2nd strongest Hierro or not really. Nothing changes the fact of how the Character Book implied that Hierro can be based on an arrancar's conscious. http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php/44132-Character-Book-Masked/page18

-What Kubo says is absolute :noworry

Well I must have missed the part where she called lanzador verde her strongest attack...but yes. That single attack we saw from her released form easily overpowered Nnoitora and went right through his blade (though that obviously slowed the lance down). On the flip side, Nnoitora never once injured released or sealed Neliel.
-Well, what other attacks in her arsenal would be stronger than Lanzador Verde?

-I'm well aware that the blade slowed down Lanzador Verde, but the point I'm trying to emphasize is that the attack didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra. Now if Nelliel threw her Lanzador Verde at a defenseless Nnoitra, would it pierce his Hierro? Sure it would, but would it critically injure him? IMO, I don't think so. Well, as long as Nnoitra doesn't lose his focus of course. Anyways, I highly doubt a release Nnoitra with his 6 scythes would let Lanzador Verde hit him without blocking it.

-Technically your right about Nnoitra not injuring Nelliel. However, the point I'm trying to emphasize is that we know Nelliel can't seriously injure Nnoitra with her strongest attacks. Do we know if Nnoitra can injure Nelliel? Technically no, but does have the potential? Sure he does, especially since he never even released his sword on her yet. That's pretty much the difference between your argument and mines.

It actually does matter; we saw like 15 seconds of her released form and you're already throwing her under the bus because she failed to 1HKO Nnoitora? And again, Nnoitora has no feats that show us he could defeat Neliel. The only people Nnoitora has ever beat up on are a half-dead Grimmjow, half-dead Ichigo, and a dude that purposely lets himself get sliced up to drag out fights as long as possible.
-I'm throwing her under the bus because she didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra with that move, not because she failed to 1HKO him.

-Instead of making Nnoitra look bad with your Grimmjow, Ichigo, and Kenpachi examples, why don't we discuss how well Nelliel can fair off against a release Nnoitra based on feats? Remember, lets be specific =)

It does matter, because judging by the panels that depict the outcome of their fight, Neliel is completely unscathed while Nnoitora is on his knees covered in blood - which means she was able to previously throttle him without breaking a sweat. The only thing was have that suggests Nnoitora has gotten so much stronger that he can now defeat her are the words of Nnoitora himself; a character who I wouldn't put much trust in.
I guess you won't agree with me then. Like I said above, lets be specific based on their present feats.

No. That's just Nnoitora getting up despite being half-dead. That's no more a tanking feat than this is: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-12.html.
There's no official definition on the word, "tanking" in terms of Bleach fights, so I guess your definition is just a little bit different from mines. However, I will say that Grimmjow suffered a lot more damage compared to what Nnoitra did because...
1) Nnoitra wasn't reverted back to sealed form, unlike Grimmjow.
2) Nnoitra still had enough energy to actually charge at Kenpachi and swing his sword, unlike this.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-16.html

Neither has Nnoitora shown he's capable of injuring Neliel at all.
My previous paragraphs already covered this point.

Grimmjow definitely would have a difficult time, but it's tough to say with Neliel. I say she could, based on the fact that she was previously way stronger than him, and was still doing fairly well in their most recent fight despite being out of practice and having her mask still cracked.
Remember that Nelliel isn't gonna easily overpower a released Nnoitra the same way like she did with sealed. Even if she does, it's still doubtful she'll cause any serious harm to Nnoitra. Don't forget that Nel can't spam her Lanzador Verde as easy as you think since it's not like she has telekinesis. I'm only referring to rusty Nelliel by the way, as you'll see below.

Well then you've kind of loaded the dice here, we've seen very little from Neliel so obviously feat-wise she's at a disadvantage in this thread. With Kubo saying that bleach still has 10 years to go though, I don't doubt we'll get to see more of Neliel in the future. At this point the only thing we can do is speculate on her true strength though, and IMO she's at least at the level of Harribel.
IMO, there's just no point in arguing speculation, because things get really complicated if we go to that route. A really good example would be Unohona's hype -_-;

Where was it stated that was her strongest attack? And for all you know it could pierce his hierro if he doesn't slow the attack down first by blocking with his own weapon.
Again, I've already covered this point, I think.




Ugh, this is turning into a Nel vs Nnoitra debate.

El Samurai Guapo
December 20, 2010, 07:45 PM
It's not proof that she can seriously injure him though. Unless of course, Nnoitra starts slacking off.

Well Nnoitora's main defense and best attribute was his hierro, and if she can cut through it while sealed then I'd bank on her being able to injure him when she's released. I know you don't like me bringing the past up, but there is the issue that she used to have no problem getting through his hierro either, and I don't see how Nnoitorra could have strengthened his skin all that much since.


Wait, so if Nnoitra's Hierro being enhanced after his release is mere speculation, then wouldn't the same logic apply to Yammy? Don't forget that the Espadas were ranked only by reiatsu, not Hierro. Otherwise, Nnoitra would've been the Cero Espada.

Not really, because his rank changes unlike the other espada; hence the same logic doesn't apply.


-IMO, the reason why R1 Yammy didn't display an impressive Hierro is because Kenpachi was already adapted to Nnoitra's Hierro. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-309-page-16.html
You can also add the fact of Yammy's sloppy personality which was even mentioned in the Character Book.

I don't buy that given the girth of his legs. Unless you want to argue that eye-patched Kenpachi can effortlessly cut Grimmjow or Harribel in half since their hierro is supposedly less thick. Then we have Ichigo, who while operating with a fraction of his reiatsu (we know this thanks to the whole bankai overcoat thing) can cut Yammi's neck, while at full reiatsu a much bigger and more impressive bankai + mask GT can't even hurt sealed Ulquiorra.


-It doesn't even matter if sealed Yammy had the 2nd strongest Hierro or not really. Nothing changes the fact of how the Character Book implied that Hierro can be based on an arrancar's conscious. http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php/44132-Character-Book-Masked/page18

Or rather, some dude on another forum interpreted it that way.


-Well, what other attacks in her arsenal would be stronger than Lanzador Verde?

Is this a trick question? Lanzador Verde is the only attack from her we saw. Yeah, you can get into semantics and call it her strongest attack (because it's the only one we saw), but that doesn't change the fact that it could overall very well be her weakest released attack for all we know at this point.



-I'm well aware that the blade slowed down Lanzador Verde, but the point I'm trying to emphasize is that the attack didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra. Now if Nelliel threw her Lanzador Verde at a defenseless Nnoitra, would it pierce his Hierro? Sure it would, but would it critically injure him? IMO, I don't think so. Well, as long as Nnoitra doesn't lose his focus of course. Anyways, I highly doubt a release Nnoitra with his 6 scythes would let Lanzador Verde hit him without blocking it.

And I highly doubt chucking her lance is the only thing the former third-espada can do.


-Technically your right about Nnoitra not injuring Nelliel. However, the point I'm trying to emphasize is that we know Nelliel can't seriously injure Nnoitra with her strongest attacks.

That's seriously flawed though; who are we to say lanzador verde is one of her strongest attacks? Like I said above, for all you it's her weakest, most basic released attack.



Do we know if Nnoitra can injure Nelliel? Technically no, but does have the potential? Sure he does, especially since he never even released his sword on her yet. That's pretty much the difference between your argument and mines.

If you're willing to bank on Nnoitora having the potential to injure Neliel, then you got to acknowledge that Neliel can do the same, because either way it's speculation. I could easily argue that Nnoitora, while having tremendous hierro himself, would lack the actually cutting power (since that wasn't his specialization) to get through Neliel's own hierro.


-I'm throwing her under the bus because she didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra with that move, not because she failed to 1HKO him.

Well that would make as much sense as saying Ichigo is weaker than Nnoitora since he was never displayed being able to injure him. You're obviously ignoring that Neliel was still weakened because of her cracked mask, and that she reverted back to her child form before she got the chance to show what she's capable of. Kenpachi had trouble cutting Nnoitora at first too, that doesn't mean he was ultimately incapable of injuring him.



-Instead of making Nnoitra look bad with your Grimmjow, Ichigo, and Kenpachi examples, why don't we discuss how well Nelliel can fair off against a release Nnoitra based on feats? Remember, lets be specific

Problem is we can't because we only saw an entire 15 seconds of released Neliel, while we've seen pretty much everything form Nnoitora. I'll just say she easily slices off Nnoitora's arms with her lance and then skewers him.


I guess you won't agree with me then. Like I said above, lets be specific based on their present feats.
There's no official definition on the word, "tanking" in terms of Bleach fights, so I guess your definition is just a little bit different from mines. However, I will say that Grimmjow suffered a lot more damage compared to what Nnoitra did because...
1) Nnoitra wasn't reverted back to sealed form, unlike Grimmjow.
2) Nnoitra still had enough energy to actually charge at Kenpachi and swing his sword, unlike this.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-16.html

IMO tanking an attack is: absorbing it while receiving little to no damage. Your definition of tanking seems to mean barely surviving the attack. If that's the case then I guess Ichigo not getting killed by Ulquiorra's initial oscuras is a tanking feat?


Remember that Nelliel isn't gonna easily overpower a released Nnoitra the same way like she did with sealed. Even if she does, it's still doubtful she'll cause any serious harm to Nnoitra. Don't forget that Nel can't spam her Lanzador Verde as easy as you think since it's not like she has telekinesis. I'm only referring to rusty Nelliel by the way, as you'll see below.

Well I didn't say she would easily overpower released Nnoitora, but I do believe she would still be stronger, faster, and more level-headed.


IMO, there's just no point in arguing speculation, because things get really complicated if we go to that route. A really good example would be Unohona's hype -_-;

Problem is if we go your route it really is impossible to defend either character using feats only since neither one of them really injured the other. But if you take into account things like Nnoitora being much weaker in the past, and Nnoitora not demonstrating any sort of advantage despite Neliel fighting for the first time in many years...I think it's natural to assume overall Neliel is more powerful. All you really have is the fact that Nel released first, which seriously means nothing.

Jackk
December 20, 2010, 08:13 PM
In my analysis of this fight, I first do want to point out that sealed Nel did have the advantage over sealed Nnoitra, specially in speed.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html

Furthermore, we know that Nnoitra's ceros will be pretty much useless against Nel...

She can stop his cero with one hand: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-18.html

She can absorb ceros and send them right back with her own cero mixed in, using her Cero doble technique. And she was also able to injure Nnoitra.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-20.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-8.html

She also cut him easily: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html

She is able to block his huge scythe with her smaller sealed sword: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-294-page-12.html

She had a good chance to slice off Nnoitra's head, but she showed him mercy as she decided to stop her sword in the middle of the attack. Nnoitra then managed to get his scythe around her and also stopped his weapon before he hit her;however, Nnoitra states that he only stopped his weapon in response because he saw that Nel stopped hers first... meaning that Nel was the faster one in that particular clash, and her sword would've sliced off Nnoitra's head before his scythe could really hit her. Remember that Nel was not only faster, but she was also able to easily cut Nnoitra (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html) despite him having the strongest hierro. In addition to that... we also know that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person, which still holds true in bleach. Particularly because we see Aizen putting barriers around his head and neck to protect himself from attacks directed towards those areas. Further, we also see Hisagi, a mere VC, killing released Tousen by stabbing him in his head. Therefore yeah... Nnoitra's head would have been gone or sliced in half, killing him instantly... had Nel been seriously trying to kill Nnoitra, rather than showing him mercy.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html

She also sent him flying with just one kick: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html

In short: Sealed Nel completely outclassed sealed Nnoitra.

As for released Nel.... she likely used her released form first because she wanted to end the fight even faster going by her initial intentions of wanting to end the fight quickly just as she had told Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-13.html). And it's also obvious that she wanted to impress Ichigo as a "thank you" for protecting her while she was in her child form (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-11.html). Furthermore, it's also obvious that Nel had the upper hand when they were both sealed, so yeah... despite her being rusty, she would naturally have the upper hand in a released fight too.

In addition to the above.... Nel, at first, didn't want to use her released state so soon after returning to her old body because it would be a strain for her (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-295-page-18.html), but Nnoitra's taunting made her lose her patience, thus she decided to finish him faster. The problem was that she obviously didn't anticipate that the strain would be such that she would revert back to her child form after only a few seconds of being in her released state (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-19.html).

Further, Lanzador verde was actually able to cut through Nnoitra's scythe too (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html). And after that, we find out that Nel was STILL holding back.... as she looks down on Nnoitra and says: "It's over, Nnoitra... Be at ease. I will not take your life... (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-18.html)

^ That to me clearly says that Nel, right after she released, was still just trying to humiliate Nnoitra, and she was still holding back. That lanzador verde was most likely not her strongest attack. She outright stated that she wasn't trying to actually kill Nnoitra. Not to mention that Nnoitra nearly pissed his pants when he saw Nel releasing...

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-4.html

In this fantasy fight, Nel doesn't have the problems of reverting back to her child form after a few seconds of being in her released state. And if Nel doesn't show him mercy like she was doing in the manga, then I'm sure that Nel can take down released Nnoitra. Particularly because she clearly had the upper hand while they were both sealed too. Further, I think that Grimmjow could easily take down Luppi (he's already done it with a cero in the manga, and that's very hard to ignore). And if Grimmjow manages to defeat Luppi in a timely manner, the fight would become Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra, which doesn't look good for Nnoitra... to say the least.

Takahashi
December 20, 2010, 09:09 PM
The more posts I see, the more I realize that one side is pretty outclassed here. (I should also reread that fight)

There's a slight problem with this matchup:

Grimm>Luppi
Noir>Grimm
Nel>Noir

So there's pretty much a 2-1 win ratio for the Grimm and Nel combo. I'd like to defend Luppi, but it's very, very hard.

Omiem
December 21, 2010, 02:52 AM
Well Nnoitora's main defense and best attribute was his hierro, and if she can cut through it while sealed then I'd bank on her being able to injure him when she's released. I know you don't like me bringing the past up, but there is the issue that she used to have no problem getting through his hierro either, and I don't see how Nnoitorra could have strengthened his skin all that much since.
-Yet, she didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra during her released.

-We don't know how strong Nnoitra's Hierro was back then, and it doesn't matter. As you already know, any points you make about their past is moot from my perspective. I go strictly by their present feats, not speculation.

Not really, because his rank changes unlike the other espada; hence the same logic doesn't apply.
I'll repeat myself once more since you seem to be ignoring this point. The Espadas were ranked solely on reiatsu, not by Hierro. As long as that's the case, the same logic does apply.

I don't buy that given the girth of his legs. Unless you want to argue that eye-patched Kenpachi can effortlessly cut Grimmjow or Harribel in half since their hierro is supposedly less thick. Then we have Ichigo, who while operating with a fraction of his reiatsu (we know this thanks to the whole bankai overcoat thing) can cut Yammi's neck, while at full reiatsu a much bigger and more impressive bankai + mask GT can't even hurt sealed Ulquiorra.



Or rather, some dude on another forum interpreted it that way.
What Kubo says is absolute. Unless you find another translation that refutes my argument, then I'll concede.

Is this a trick question? Lanzador Verde is the only attack from her we saw. Yeah, you can get into semantics and call it her strongest attack (because it's the only one we saw), but that doesn't change the fact that it could overall very well be her weakest released attack for all we know at this point.
-It's logically her strongest attack. I don't think you can deny that Nelliel's sealed sword and double cero are weaker than Lanzador Verde.

-Not exactly sure what you meant about Lanzador being her weakest released attack. Are you now assuming that she has other attacks which are stronger than Lanzador Verde? If so, then that's only mere speculation.

And I highly doubt chucking her lance is the only thing the former third-espada can do.

That's seriously flawed though; who are we to say lanzador verde is one of her strongest attacks? Like I said above, for all you it's her weakest, most basic released attack.
I can see Nelliel using her Lance as a melee weapon, but that's about it. We can't just assume she has stronger attacks than Lanzador Verde.

If you're willing to bank on Nnoitora having the potential to injure Neliel, then you got to acknowledge that Neliel can do the same, because either way it's speculation. I could easily argue that Nnoitora, while having tremendous hierro himself, would lack the actually cutting power (since that wasn't his specialization) to get through Neliel's own hierro.
-Nelliel being unable to seriously injure Nnoitra is not speculation, because we already have actual evidence of that. Now do we have evidence of Nnoitra failing to injure Nelliel during his released form? No, and that's the edge he has that I'm trying to emphasize.

-Nelliel hasn't display any Hierro feats. You could say that she has the potential to tank Nnoitra's attacks, but I could also say Nnoitra has the potential to cut her. It works both ways.

Well that would make as much sense as saying Ichigo is weaker than Nnoitora since he was never displayed being able to injure him. You're obviously ignoring that Neliel was still weakened because of her cracked mask, and that she reverted back to her child form before she got the chance to show what she's capable of. Kenpachi had trouble cutting Nnoitora at first too, that doesn't mean he was ultimately incapable of injuring him.
-Ichigo was already half dead and unlike Nelliel, he didn't even land his strongest attacks on Nnoitra. Or rather, he couldn't. So the logic isn't similar by any means.

-Like I said before, what Nelliel has shown feat wise is what I'll use to determine her strength. Fact is, you can assume that she can potentially cut Nnoitra, but another person will disagree. Unless it's proven otherwise, we can't just make that assumption. Then again, you don't have to agree with me of course.

Problem is we can't because we only saw an entire 15 seconds of released Neliel, while we've seen pretty much everything form Nnoitora. I'll just say she easily slices off Nnoitora's arms with her lance and then skewers him.
-Nelliel would have a tough time cutting off his arms. The only reason why Kenpachi managed to is because he was playing dead. Unless Nelliel has the swordsmanship around Kenpachi's level, I can't really see her getting past Nnoitra's defenses IMO.

IMO tanking an attack is: absorbing it while receiving little to no damage. Your definition of tanking seems to mean barely surviving the attack. If that's the case then I guess Ichigo not getting killed by Ulquiorra's initial oscuras is a tanking feat?
My definition is if a victim takes an attack and is unable to immediately continue fighting afterwards, then I don't consider that a tanking feat. Nnoitra was able to fight after taking a direct Kendo, so he tanked it by my definition. No point in debating this anyways since there's no real official definition. So we're really not getting anywhere.

Well I didn't say she would easily overpower released Nnoitora, but I do believe she would still be stronger, faster, and more level-headed.
Can't really see how she would be physically stronger. However, I do agree that she would be quicker and more level-headed.

Problem is if we go your route it really is impossible to defend either character using feats only since neither one of them really injured the other. But if you take into account things like Nnoitora being much weaker in the past, and Nnoitora not demonstrating any sort of advantage despite Neliel fighting for the first time in many years...I think it's natural to assume overall Neliel is more powerful. All you really have is the fact that Nel released first, which seriously means nothing.
-I'm not literally using feats alone if that's what your implying. I also apply a little logic in my arguments too. If people didn't do that, then Unohona would be consider weaker than a Hollow based on her feats.

-However, I am against speculation. Debates like Urahara vs Shunsui or Yoruichi vs Ukitake will remain inconclusive and complicated if people used hype. It's more simple to just go by feats combined with a little bit of logic so that the discussion doesn't turn into a 7 page debate. Wouldn't you agree?

Mayumura
December 21, 2010, 03:54 AM
^Figure someone would say that. Anyways, don't forget that Luppi took down HItsugaya pretty easily. If he just followed through with his attack, then Hitsugaya would've potentially died. The state of mind in this match is the desire to kill, so Luppi isn't gonna repeat the same mistake. All 4 fighters are around the same level in my opinion.

Hitsugaya didnt expect this attacks. Also Luppi didnt even react when Grimmjow pierced his body with hand, it mean that he is much slower than Grim, scenario would be the same: Grim pierce luppi + cero, after that Nelliel + Grimm vs Nnoitra, Nnoitra w/a ressurection is weaker than Nel with.
Sure thing, that with he will be stronger but he cant do anything vs 2 ressurections, Grim is lower than him just for 1 rank.

El Samurai Guapo
December 21, 2010, 03:59 AM
-Yet, she didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra during her released.

Because she only got to use one attack and Nnoitora happened to block it?


-We don't know how strong Nnoitra's Hierro was back then, and it doesn't matter. As you already know, any points you make about their past is moot from my perspective. I go strictly by their present feats, not speculation.

Well I do, so I'll use the past events as I see fit. Doesn't really matter if you think it's moot, it's not like I'm gonna convince you of anything regardless; you've had your mind made up since before we even started debating.


I'll repeat myself once more since you seem to be ignoring this point. The Espadas were ranked solely on reiatsu, not by Hierro. As long as that's the case, the same logic does apply.

And I'll repeat myself as many times as it takes; Yammi is a special case because his number changes. In other words, he becomes a totally different espada. It's not hard to see how when his rank changes so do his traits like hierro, strength, stamina, size, etc.


What Kubo says is absolute. Unless you find another translation that refutes my argument, then I'll concede.

And manga feats are literally what Kubo says as well. It's a canon fact none of the versions of Yammi we saw do battle had stronger hierro than sealed Ulquiorra. As for the bit about hierro durability fluctuating when an arrancar is focused/unfocused, I'd have to see the actual line in the data book that says that myself.


-It's logically her strongest attack. I don't think you can deny that Nelliel's sealed sword and double cero are weaker than Lanzador Verde.

Then you should specify the strongest attack from her that we've seen thus far. I guarantee you most people on here wouldn't agree that Neliel displayed all of her abilities in the 15 seconds she fought after releasing.


-Not exactly sure what you meant about Lanzador being her weakest released attack. Are you now assuming that she has other attacks which are stronger than Lanzador Verde? If so, then that's only mere speculation.

Of course I'm assuming she can do more than toss her lance. I don't think she'd be much of a tercera espada if that's all she was capable of. I think pretty much all the arrancar we've seen so far have more than one move...so it's not just speculation, it's pretty logical Nel can do more. Besides, if lanzador verde -her strongest attack according to you- was ineffective then why was Nel still confident she would win?


I can see Nelliel using her Lance as a melee weapon, but that's about it. We can't just assume she has stronger attacks than Lanzador Verde.

You can't assume she doesn't either. Given the reasons I mentioned above, it's more logical to assume she does.


-Nelliel being unable to seriously injure Nnoitra is not speculation, because we already have actual evidence of that. Now do we have evidence of Nnoitra failing to injure Nelliel during his released form? No, and that's the edge he has that I'm trying to emphasize.

Yeah we do. There's the fact that he never landed a hit on her, and she easily stopped his cero with her hand. She doesn't need to be a hierro tank like Nnoitora, if he can't hit her that's just as good. Jackk in his recent post brought up some good points overlooked.


She had a good chance to slice off Nnoitra's head, but she showed him mercy as she decided to stop her sword in the middle of the attack. Nnoitra then managed to get his scythe around her and also stopped his weapon before he hit her;however, Nnoitra states that he only stopped his weapon in response because he saw that Nel stopped hers first... meaning that Nel was the faster one in that particular clash, and her sword would've sliced off Nnoitra's head before his scythe could really hit her. Remember that Nel was not only faster, but she was also able to easily cut Nnoitra despite him having the strongest hierro. In addition to that... we also know that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person, which still holds true in bleach. Particularly because we see Aizen putting barriers around his head and neck to protect himself from attacks directed towards those areas. Further, we also see Hisagi, a mere VC, killing released Tousen by stabbing him in his head. Therefore yeah... Nnoitra's head would have been gone or sliced in half, killing him instantly... had Nel been seriously trying to kill Nnoitra, rather than showing him mercy.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...3-page-21.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...3-page-22.html

She also sent him flying with just one kick: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...1-page-16.html

In short: Sealed Nel completely outclassed sealed Nnoitra.

Another thing I looked over was Neliel's pacifist attitude and refusal to kill Nnoitora. It's true now that Jackk has pointed it out, even in their past fight Neliel refused to kill Nnoitora. There's a case to be made for her holding back when she used lanzador verde on him, as she was already in a position where she could have killed Nnoitora while sealed, yet she didn't.



-Nelliel hasn't display any Hierro feats. You could say that she has the potential to tank Nnoitra's attacks, but I could also say Nnoitra has the potential to cut her. It works both ways.

She doesn't need to display hierro feats, all espada have it. Even Grimmjow and Ulquiorra who weren't noted for their hierro gave bankai vaizard Ichigo great difficulty in cutting them. I didn't see anything from Nnoitora which indicated he had exceptional cutting power, and since Neliel has the advantage in speed and strength, I'd say he'd have trouble seriously injuring her in CQB.


-Ichigo was already half dead and unlike Nelliel, he didn't even land his strongest attacks on Nnoitra. Or rather, he couldn't. So the logic isn't similar by any means. Ichigo was half dead, but Neliel was also operating with handicaps of her own. 1) The cracked mask 2) First time fighting in many years 3) readjusting to her adult body 4) Straining herself by releasing.


-Like I said before, what Nelliel has shown feat wise is what I'll use to determine her strength. Fact is, you can assume that she can potentially cut Nnoitra, but another person will disagree. Unless it's proven otherwise, we can't just make that assumption. Then again, you don't have to agree with me of course.

I don't need to assume she can cut him, she's already done it. You the one making assumptions about his hierro being weaker when his guard is down...which doesn't even make sense in the first place; Nnoitora had fought her before and knew she was capable of pwning him so why would he have dropped his guard after seeing her return to her adult form?


-Nelliel would have a tough time cutting off his arms. The only reason why Kenpachi managed to is because he was playing dead. Unless Nelliel has the swordsmanship around Kenpachi's level, I can't really see her getting past Nnoitra's defenses IMO.

Going by what we saw happen when they were both fighting sealed, I'd say her swordsmanship is up there, and she's was shown to be a lot more agile and more powerful, so it's not a stretch at all to assume that while they're both released she would still have the advantage...particularly in a scenario where she actually intends to kill Nnoitora and she's not plagued by the 4 handicaps I mentioned earlier.


My definition is if a victim takes an attack and is unable to immediately continue fighting afterwards, then I don't consider that a tanking feat. Nnoitra was able to fight after taking a direct Kendo, so he tanked it by my definition. No point in debating this anyways since there's no real official definition. So we're really not getting anywhere.

Well you're right that there is no official definition, but I gotta say that your interpretation of tanking an attack doesn't sound right to me. If we went by your definition, anytime someone survives an attack they've tanked it. Like the example I brought up before with Ichigo. In Nnoitora's case he was able to stand up and charge at Kenpachi, but really he was already done in by that kendo strike.


Can't really see how she would be physically stronger. However, I do agree that she would be quicker and more level-headed.


She was shown to be physically stronger. She easily blocked his attacks with her much smaller weapon, sent him flying with a kick, stopped his cero with her hand, and cut through his weapon and sent him flying again with lanzador verde.


-I'm not literally using feats alone if that's what your implying. I also apply a little logic in my arguments too. If people didn't do that, then Unohona would be consider weaker than a Hollow based on her feats.

Well I don't see the logic in claiming that Neliel has played all her cards in the very short amount of time we saw her fight. Declaring her incapable of injuring Nnoitora based off of the tiny amount of time we saw her released form seems illogical to me.



-However, I am against speculation. Debates like Urahara vs Shunsui or Yoruichi vs Ukitake will remain inconclusive and complicated if people used hype. It's more simple to just go by feats combined with a little bit of logic so that the discussion doesn't turn into a 7 page debate. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm not against all speculation as long as it seems somewhat reasonable and there is at least some manga evidence that indicates it is likely. Technically speaking, virtually all the fantasy fights here in el campo de batallas are speculation unless the fight has actually already occurred in the manga (or it's blatantly obvious like Yama vs. Rukia or something); in which case further debate pretty much pointless. Interestingly enough, that's actually the case in this thread; we already know for certain that Grimmjow >>>>> Luppi. Debates with Urahara, Shunsui, Ukitake, etc. actually are always inconclusive on these forums, and they usually do turn into several page debates in case you haven't noticed.

P.S. I hope you read Jackk's post because he makes a lot of compelling arguments that I didn't bring up.

Omiem
December 21, 2010, 12:28 PM
Because she only got to use one attack and Nnoitora happened to block it?



Well I do, so I'll use the past events as I see fit. Doesn't really matter if you think it's moot, it's not like I'm gonna convince you of anything regardless; you've had your mind made up since before we even started debating.

.

And I'll repeat myself as many times as it takes; Yammi is a special case because his number changes. In other words, he becomes a totally different espada. It's not hard to see how when his rank changes so do his traits like hierro, strength, stamina, size, etc.



And manga feats are literally what Kubo says as well. It's a canon fact none of the versions of Yammi we saw do battle had stronger hierro than sealed Ulquiorra. As for the bit about hierro durability fluctuating when an arrancar is focused/unfocused, I'd have to see the actual line in the data book that says that myself.



Then you should specify the strongest attack from her that we've seen thus far. I guarantee you most people on here wouldn't agree that Neliel displayed all of her abilities in the 15 seconds she fought after releasing.



Of course I'm assuming she can do more than toss her lance. I don't think she'd be much of a tercera espada if that's all she was capable of. I think pretty much all the arrancar we've seen so far have more than one move...so it's not just speculation, it's pretty logical Nel can do more. Besides, if lanzador verde -her strongest attack according to you- was ineffective then why was Nel still confident she would win?



You can't assume she doesn't either. Given the reasons I mentioned above, it's more logical to assume she does.



Yeah we do. There's the fact that he never landed a hit on her, and she easily stopped his cero with her hand. She doesn't need to be a hierro tank like Nnoitora, if he can't hit her that's just as good. Jackk in his recent post brought up some good points overlooked.

[/SPOILER]

Another thing I looked over was Neliel's pacifist attitude and refusal to kill Nnoitora. It's true now that Jackk has pointed it out, even in their past fight Neliel refused to kill Nnoitora. There's a case to be made for her holding back when she used lanzador verde on him, as she was already in a position where she could have killed Nnoitora while sealed, yet she didn't.



She doesn't need to display hierro feats, all espada have it. Even Grimmjow and Ulquiorra who weren't noted for their hierro gave bankai vaizard Ichigo great difficulty in cutting them. I didn't see anything from Nnoitora which indicated he had exceptional cutting power, and since Neliel has the advantage in speed and strength, I'd say he'd have trouble seriously injuring her in CQB.

Ichigo was half dead, but Neliel was also operating with handicaps of her own. 1) The cracked mask 2) First time fighting in many years 3) readjusting to her adult body 4) Straining herself by releasing.


I don't need to assume she can cut him, she's already done it. You the one making assumptions about his hierro being weaker when his guard is down...which doesn't even make sense in the first place; Nnoitora had fought her before and knew she was capable of pwning him so why would he have dropped his guard after seeing her return to her adult form?



Going by what we saw happen when they were both fighting sealed, I'd say her swordsmanship is up there, and she's was shown to be a lot more agile and more powerful, so it's not a stretch at all to assume that while they're both released she would still have the advantage...particularly in a scenario where she actually intends to kill Nnoitora and she's not plagued by the 4 handicaps I mentioned earlier.



Well you're right that there is no official definition, but I gotta say that your interpretation of tanking an attack doesn't sound right to me. If we went by your definition, anytime someone survives an attack they've tanked it. Like the example I brought up before with Ichigo. In Nnoitora's case he was able to stand up and charge at Kenpachi, but really he was already done in by that kendo strike.



She was shown to be physically stronger. She easily blocked his attacks with her much smaller weapon, sent him flying with a kick, stopped his cero with her hand, and cut through his weapon and sent him flying again with lanzador verde.



Well I don't see the logic in claiming that Neliel has played all her cards in the very short amount of time we saw her fight. Declaring her incapable of injuring Nnoitora based off of the tiny amount of time we saw her released form seems illogical to me.



I'm not against all speculation as long as it seems somewhat reasonable and there is at least some manga evidence that indicates it is likely. Technically speaking, virtually all the fantasy fights here in el campo de batallas are speculation unless the fight has actually already occurred in the manga (or it's blatantly obvious like Yama vs. Rukia or something); in which case further debate pretty much pointless. Interestingly enough, that's actually the case in this thread; we already know for certain that Grimmjow >>>>> Luppi. Debates with Urahara, Shunsui, Ukitake, etc. actually are always inconclusive on these forums, and they usually do turn into several page debates in case you haven't noticed.

P.S. I hope you read Jackk's post because he makes a lot of compelling arguments that I didn't bring up.
I'm gonna end this argument right here since I'm noticing that all we're doing is playing a little game of repetition with our points. I could go on, but that would just be silly -_-;

El Samurai Guapo
December 21, 2010, 03:08 PM
I'm gonna end this argument right here since I'm noticing that all we're doing is playing a little game of repetition with our points. I could go on, but that would just be silly -_-;

Fair enough. I've said all I need to say about Nel v. Nnoitora anyway; now it's up to other posters to read what I've wrote and agree/disagree. Overall I'd still say Grimmjow and Neliel win far more often than not.

Crystal Black
December 21, 2010, 09:08 PM
Grimm and Neliel should take this but neither are stronger then Nnoitra individually. In fact I find it hard that they have something powerful enough in there arsenal to put him down permanently.

Raizen
December 21, 2010, 09:42 PM
Tough decision. I don't see any of grimjow's techniques be able to hurt noitora let alone take him down. And i don't believe nel is stronger than noitora either. In her released form, a direct hit from her lance didn't fatally injured noitora, and he wasn't even released. Sure she can give a fight, but can she beat him? In her current condition, i don't think so.

And luppi is not as weak as most seem to believe. He was completely totaled by hitsu b4 grimjow killed him.

kulash05
December 21, 2010, 10:22 PM
I'll argue for Luppi just because it seems like this has become one sided (even though i agree with them.) Why is everyone over looking the fact that Luppi fought three VC without breaking a sweat and was ready to kill one if he wasn't stopped.
I also notice people didn't think about character fighting attuide. Grimmjow is not one to accept help in killing his prey. I'm not suggesting he would turn on Nel, but he certainly wouldn't work with her. And I can't see her supporting his attitude about ruthless killing and fighting.
Luppi seems like a sociopath and wouldn't flinch about doing whatever he can to kill. Nnoitra isn't really one for taking help if it makes him look weaker, but at the same time, he would do anything to kill who ever he views as a good kill. He was willing to work with Syazel, I'm sure he would work with Luppi if it meant finally killing Nel.

Takahashi
December 21, 2010, 11:14 PM
I'll argue for Luppi just because it seems like this has become one sided (even though i agree with them.) Why is everyone over looking the fact that Luppi fought three VC without breaking a sweat and was ready to kill one if he wasn't stopped.
I also notice people didn't think about character fighting attuide. Grimmjow is not one to accept help in killing his prey. I'm not suggesting he would turn on Nel, but he certainly wouldn't work with her. And I can't see her supporting his attitude about ruthless killing and fighting.
Luppi seems like a sociopath and wouldn't flinch about doing whatever he can to kill. Nnoitra isn't really one for taking help if it makes him look weaker, but at the same time, he would do anything to kill who ever he views as a good kill. He was willing to work with Syazel, I'm sure he would work with Luppi if it meant finally killing Nel.

That's interesting, there's always so much emphasis on complimentary powers, but complimentary personality is rarely brought up in 2 v 2 threads

Rikudou King
December 22, 2010, 12:20 AM
-Yet, she didn't even make a scratch on Nnoitra during her released. Considering Nelliel was able to cut Nnoitra while in her sealed state, There's little reason to believe she couldn't do the same while released.

As for the actual fight, I see Grimmjow and Nelliel taking this, Since Luppi wouldn't be much of a threat to either of them and they both should be able to at least handle Nnoitra long enough for their partner to finish with Luppi and join them.

Omiem
December 22, 2010, 12:56 AM
Considering Nelliel was able to cut Nnoitra while in her sealed state, There's little reason to believe she couldn't do the same while released.
Like I've said in my previous posts. Hierro is a conscious ability. Since Nnoitra has the desire to kill, he's not gonna slack off against Nelliel. The fact that she couldn't even draw a scratch on Nnoitra with her strongest attack pretty much tells me that she's not gonna critically injure him anytime soon. Especially if Nnoitra releases.

As for the actual fight, I see Grimmjow and Nelliel taking this, Since Luppi wouldn't be much of a threat to either of them and they both should be able to at least handle Nnoitra long enough for their partner to finish with Luppi and join them.
Why wouldn't Luppi be a threat to them? If those tentacles were fast enough to blitz Hitsugaya, then Grimmjow and Nelliel aren't gonna have an easy time dodging.

Rikudou King
December 22, 2010, 01:28 AM
Like I've said in my previous posts. Hierro is a conscious ability. Since Nnoitra has the desire to kill, he's not gonna slack off against Nelliel. The fact that she couldn't even draw a scratch on Nnoitra with her strongest attack pretty much tells me that she's not gonna critically injure him anytime soon. Especially if Nnoitra releases. Apart from the fact that she was trying to avoid killing him and his own weapon blocked the hit, That doesn't change the fact that she was still able to cut him before releasing. She wouldn't get weaker when she releases, So there's no reason she can't do what she did while sealed.


Why wouldn't Luppi be a threat to them? If those tentacles were fast enough to blitz Hitsugaya, then Grimmjow and Nelliel aren't gonna have an easy time dodging. Luppi's tentacles weren't so much fast as simply strong. Hitsugaya was able to block, It just didn't do any good. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure both Grimmjow and Nelliel are faster then Hitsugaya and Luppi.

Omiem
December 22, 2010, 01:55 AM
Apart from the fact that she was trying to avoid killing him and his own weapon blocked the hit, That doesn't change the fact that she was still able to cut him before releasing. She wouldn't get weaker when she releases, So there's no reason she can't do what she did while sealed.
-Nelliel stated that she wouldn't kill him after throwing her Lance.

-Doesn't matter if Nelliel was trying to avoid killing him anyways. She wanted to at least injure him, right? After all, the whole point of releasing and throwing that Lance at Nnoitra was to protect Ichigo. The fact that the attack didn't even draw a mere scratch is still unimpressive.

-Released Nnoitra isn't gonna let that attack hit him without blocking it.

-Again, Hierro is a conscious ability. Just because she managed to scratch him once doesn't mean she'll do it again. Especially since Nnoitra has the desire to kill.

Luppi's tentacles weren't so much fast as simply strong. Hitsugaya was able to block, It just didn't do any good. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure both Grimmjow and Nelliel are faster then Hitsugaya and Luppi.
-What do you mean they weren't fast? Hitsugaya has one of the best reaction feats seeing how he evaded Gin's shikai. If he couldn't react to those tentacles, then they can't be slow.

-Hitsugaya wasn't strong enough to block it. His bankai was shattered into pieces, and Luppi didn't even use his spikes at that time.

-Doesn't matter if Grimmjow and Nelliel are faster than Hitsugaya and Luppi in terms of speed movement. They would need the reaction skills to evade those tentacles. Not just speed.

Rikudou King
December 22, 2010, 03:18 AM
-Nelliel stated that she wouldn't kill him after throwing her Lance.

-Doesn't matter if Nelliel was trying to avoid killing him anyways. She wanted to at least injure him, right? After all, the whole point of releasing and throwing that Lance at Nnoitra was to protect Ichigo. The fact that the attack didn't even draw a mere scratch is still unimpressive.

-Released Nnoitra isn't gonna let that attack hit him without blocking it.

-Again, Hierro is a conscious ability. Just because she managed to scratch him once doesn't mean she'll do it again. Especially since Nnoitra has the desire to kill. Eariler in the fight she stopped her sword strike at his neck. Anyhow, She did want to stop him, But it wasn't like she was attempting to do it in one attack. she was basically humiliating him and had no idea that attack would be her last.

Ok, I'm not sure what you mean by conscious ability? Because he saw her attacking coming and was still cut. It's not like it was a surprise hit. He was totally aware of her coming at him. So unless he allowed her to cut him, Which makes no sense, She can cut through his Hierro.


-What do you mean they weren't fast? Hitsugaya has one of the best reaction feats seeing how he evaded Gin's shikai. If he couldn't react to those tentacles, then they can't be slow.

-Hitsugaya wasn't strong enough to block it. His bankai was shattered into pieces, and Luppi didn't even use his spikes at that time.

-Doesn't matter if Grimmjow and Nelliel are faster than Hitsugaya and Luppi in terms of speed movement. They would need the reaction skills to evade those tentacles. Not just speed. But they weren't that fast. Hitsugaya was able to block the first one and see the other seven coming at him. The problem wasn't their speed, But their power and even that wasn't enough to kill him. Both Grimmjow and Nelliel were able to react to Ichigo and Nnoitra just fine, So I don't see why they would have trouble with someone who is likely slower.

Omiem
December 22, 2010, 03:50 AM
Eariler in the fight she stopped her sword strike at his neck. Anyhow, She did want to stop him, But it wasn't like she was attempting to do it in one attack. she was basically humiliating him and had no idea that attack would be her last.
Let me ask you. Why did she throw her Lance again? Um, let me see. To hurt Nnoitra. Not to "humiliate" him. Did she succeed? I don't think so.

Ok, I'm not sure what you mean by conscious ability? Because he saw her attacking coming and was still cut. It's not like it was a surprise hit. He was totally aware of her coming at him. So unless he allowed her to cut him, Which makes no sense, She can cut through his Hierro.
Nnoitra was aware, but he stated himself that his guard was down. Of course, you could say that he was just referring to her double cero, but there's still a good chance that he was underestimating Nelliel from the beginning as well.

But they weren't that fast. Hitsugaya was able to block the first one and see the other seven coming at him. The problem wasn't their speed, But their power and even that wasn't enough to kill him. Both Grimmjow and Nelliel were able to react to Ichigo and Nnoitra just fine, So I don't see why they would have trouble with someone who is likely slower.
-If Hitsugaya was able to see the other 7 coming, then he would've been able to escape. The fact that he couldn't means the tentacles were too fast for him.

-The tentacles weren't strong enough to kill him because Luppi didn't even use his spikes.

-I don't recall any impressive reaction feats from Grimmjow such as evading. Nnoitra's attacks aren't as fast as Luppi's. Plus, he wasn't really in the desire to kill against her. So Nelliel's reaction feats against Nnoitra aren't really that astonishing IMO.

Takahashi
December 22, 2010, 04:35 AM
After going back and finally reading through the chapters, I'm leaning more on the Noir/Luppi side, if just barely.

Neither Nel nor Noirtra did any significant damage to each other while unreleased, Noirtra was cut, but it was incredibly shallow, a few blunt injuries also don't count for much. He was only overpowered when she had resurrected, and even then, only showed a single attack that still failed to do anything significant. She had the advantage of course. However it was not akin to say, a Bankai vs Shikai, which is more the way it should have looked.

Also, it's worth noting that Noirtra was overpowered by Kenpachi while unreleased, yet when he released he EASILY blocked and countered a serious strike from an eyepatch-less Kenpachi. His Reiatsu was complimented as well. It's pretty clear that Noirtra has essentially an Ikkaku release, a massive increase to everything related to power, and it doesn't hurt that he's got six arms/weapons both with regenerative abilities.

It's funny, because Luppi is sort of the same way. Multiple weapons and a big power increase. Luppi was killed by Grimmjow, but at the same time, he seriously hurt a captain in a single attack too. I think someone else also mentioned that Luppi was injured first and not healed prior to being killed, which as far as I can recall, is true.

That could account for the ease at which Grimmjow killed him. Hell, Grimmjow in the same situation had his sword caught by an unarmed Ichigo like it was nothing. I think the injury factor may count for a lot.

I'll toss my vote to Noir and Luppi, they're the underdogs here. Not saying it would be an easy win, but I don't think it's as cut and dry for Grimm and Nel as people are suggesting.

Rikudou King
December 22, 2010, 02:27 PM
Let me ask you. Why did she throw her Lance again? Um, let me see. To hurt Nnoitra. Not to "humiliate" him. Did she succeed? I don't think so. But She did hurt him. Nelliel throwing her lance not only pushed him back quite far, But left him kneeling on the ground and open to her next attack. It wasn't as if her throwing her lance was a last resort.


Nnoitra was aware, but he stated himself that his guard was down. Of course, you could say that he was just referring to her double cero, but there's still a good chance that he was underestimating Nelliel from the beginning as well. Considering how much he hated her and the fact that she continued to show him up, It makes no sense that he would underestimate her.


-If Hitsugaya was able to see the other 7 coming, then he would've been able to escape. The fact that he couldn't means the tentacles were too fast for him. He couldn't escape since they were surrounding him. Again, How could they have been too fast when he had no trouble stopping the first one. With that one he didn't even know it was coming.


-The tentacles weren't strong enough to kill him because Luppi didn't even use his spikes. Well probably, But the difference in damage shouldn't have been that much.


-I don't recall any impressive reaction feats from Grimmjow such as evading. Nnoitra's attacks aren't as fast as Luppi's. Plus, he wasn't really in the desire to kill against her. So Nelliel's reaction feats against Nnoitra aren't really that astonishing IMO. Grimmjow showed feats against Masked Ichigo and while Nnoitra's attacks may not be that fast, Nelliel completely avoided him and I can't see how Luppi would be faster. Also, Where exactly was it shown that Nnoitra didn't desire to kill her.

Omiem
December 22, 2010, 04:29 PM
But She did hurt him. Nelliel throwing her lance not only pushed him back quite far, But left him kneeling on the ground and open to her next attack. It wasn't as if her throwing her lance was a last resort.
-Nelliel's Lance didn't even make a single scratch on Nnoitra. Also, look at his face in that panel. Does it seem like he was scared or even impressed with her attack?

-I'm not saying that her Lance was a last resort, but it should've at least made a scratch on Nnotira.

Considering how much he hated her and the fact that she continued to show him up, It makes no sense that he would underestimate her.
-It's been years since Nnoitra last saw Nelliel. That should be more than enough reason to underestimate her. He even stated this himself with his own words.

-Nnoitra hated her, but was it a blood lusted hate? If it was, then you might have a point. However it isn't, and I'll explain my reasoning later in this post.

He couldn't escape since they were surrounding him. Again, How could they have been too fast when he had no trouble stopping the first one. With that one he didn't even know it was coming.
-He could've escape. Luppi's tentacles aren't like Senbonzakura since there's big gaps between them. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-10.html

- http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-9.html
As you can see, Hitsugaya's eyes aren't even on those tentacles. They were fast enough to the point where he couldn't see them coming.

-Luppi likes to play with his enemies. That's just his personality, so it's not hard to believe that he was holding back the speed of his first tentacle.

Well probably, But the difference in damage shouldn't have been that much.
Why wouldn't they? Spikes can make big difference since they'll actually stab Hitsugaya. That alone should at least critically injure him.

Grimmjow showed feats against Masked Ichigo and while Nnoitra's attacks may not be that fast, Nelliel completely avoided him and I can't see how Luppi would be faster.
-Again, show me an impressive reaction feat that he has displayed against Ichigo. Otherwise, I see no reason why Luppi can't hit Grimmjow since even Hitsugaya couldn't react to those tentacles. Remember that this is the same Hitsugaya who was able to react against Gin's shikai.

-Give me evidence of why Luppi's attacks are slower than Nelliel.

Also, Where exactly was it shown that Nnoitra didn't desire to kill her.
This panel is pretty self explanatory.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html

Rikudou King
December 22, 2010, 11:24 PM
-Nelliel's Lance didn't even make a single scratch on Nnoitra. Also, look at his face in that panel. Does it seem like he was scared or even impressed with her attack?

-I'm not saying that her Lance was a last resort, but it should've at least made a scratch on Nnotira. Maybe it would have done more had it not been blocked. The point remains that she was going easy and throwing her lance wasn't a final attack. If anything, It was set up to her next attack. As for how he looked, He looks angry/pissed to me.


-It's been years since Nnoitra last saw Nelliel. That should be more than enough reason to underestimate her. He even stated this himself with his own words.

-Nnoitra hated her, but was it a blood lusted hate? If it was, then you might have a point. However it isn't, and I'll explain my reasoning later in this post. Except the simple fact that Nnoitra could never beat Nelliel one on one all those years ago and needed help to actually win, That would be plenty of reason for him not to underestimate her. It wasn't bloodlust, But it was still hatred. All that we have seen from him suggest that he wouldn't go easy on any opponent.


-He could've escape. Luppi's tentacles aren't like Senbonzakura since there's big gaps between them. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-10.html

- http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-9.html
As you can see, Hitsugaya's eyes aren't even on those tentacles. They were fast enough to the point where he couldn't see them coming.

-Luppi likes to play with his enemies. That's just his personality, so it's not hard to believe that he was holding back the speed of his first tentacle. Hitsugaya being able to escape and not doing so doesn't mean they're shockingly fast. As for his eyes, They look to me like he's looking at them. Maybe it's perception. Luppi showed no other signs of holding back during the fight, So I don't see why he would have done so then, Regardless of personality.


Why wouldn't they? Spikes can make big difference since they'll actually stab Hitsugaya. That alone should at least critically injure him. Those spikes look sort of flimsy. Anyhow, My point was that the difference shouldn't be so great that without them he simply knocks the guy down. At least Nelliel showed that she could do some lasting damage.


-Again, show me an impressive reaction feat that he has displayed against Ichigo. Otherwise, I see no reason why Luppi can't hit Grimmjow since even Hitsugaya couldn't react to those tentacles. Remember that this is the same Hitsugaya who was able to react against Gin's shikai.

-Give me evidence of why Luppi's attacks are slower than Nelliel. Grimmjow was able to block a masked Ichigo's sword with his arm while he was going full speed (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-282-page-14.html). I would say that's a pretty good feat. Also, I never say Luppi couldn't hit them. I say they wouldn't have trouble with him. All eight of Luppi's tentacles weren't much of a threat to Hitsugaya. As for Nelliel, I didn't say she was faster then Luppi's tentacles, Although she likely is. I say she was faster then Luppi. Even if his attack was so fast they would have trouble blocking it, It doesn't mean much if they can move faster then him. The fact that they both are likely faster then Luppi mean that they can get up close where his tentacles won't matter and damage him if not murder.


This panel is pretty self explanatory.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html Nnoitra stopped because Nelliel stopped. That doesn't really show he didn't desire to kill her. It was more he enjoyed taunting her.

In addition, We can't forget the fact that Nelliel has actually fought Nnoitra several times before. She knows how he fights and odds are she would be able to counter him even if he's stronger now.

Jackk
December 23, 2010, 01:56 AM
Let me ask you. Why did she throw her Lance again? Um, let me see. To hurt Nnoitra. Not to "humiliate" him. Did she succeed? I don't think so.

Why did she showed Nnoitra mercy as she spared his life when she had a clear good chance of either slicing his head off or at least slicing his throat when they were both sealed?

Neliel has always displayed a pacifist attitude and refusal to kill Nnoitra, even in their past fights Neliel refused to kill Nnoitora. In fact, the moment after Nel had the chance to slice off Nnoitra's head/neck, but she stopped because she didn't want to kill him... Nnoitra remembers how Nel was always like this, beating him up every time... and Nnoitra would tell her to finish him off but Nel would refuse to do that.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-294/page007.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-294-page-8.html

I mean, right after Nel spared Nnoitra's life by not slicing his head off or not slicing his throat, he outright says that it pisses him off... and that it makes him remember that time. Then Nnoitra proceeds to tell Nel that she really hasn't changed a damn bit...

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-293/page020.html

Nel is faster, stronger, and more level-headed. Considering that she also easily blocked his attacks with her much smaller weapon, sent him flying with a kick, made his cero completely useless by stopping it with her hand all while still being only in her sealed state, then she proceeded to make him nearly piss his pants when she released... I would say that Nel was humiliating him, and I really believe that she would have beaten Nnoitra had she not reverted back to her child form after only a few seconds of being in her released state.


I'm not saying that her Lance was a last resort, but it should've at least made a scratch on Nnotira.

No. She wasn't trying to really hurt him when she first released, she was trying to humiliate him first... and she did push him back as well as broke through his weapon with that Lanzador verde. She outright stated that she wasn't going to kill him; she was obviously holding back, and clearly looking down at him.

Mangashare's own scanlation: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-296/page016.html (other scanlations give the same message too, you can check the one at bleachexile which was posted earlier, and other scanlations in other sites if you want.)

Cnet's translation (which says the same thing as Mangashare's scanlation): http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/397

Would she have tried to really hurt him later on, at least as much as it was necessary to take him down? perhaps yes, but for how long was she able to stay in her adult form? No more than a few seconds after she released... and it's wasn't exactly her fault (Nel doesn't have the handicap or limitation of reverting back to her child form in this fantasy fight though). Nel completely outclassed Nnoitra when they were both sealed, thus I logically believe that she should at least be good enough to take him down when they're both released as well.

Stating that that Lanzador verde attack is her strongest attack and that that attack is the only thing that she could do as the former 3rd Espada in her released state... sounds ridiculous to me. Particularly considering that she completely outclassed him while they were both sealed, so yeah....


Nnoitra was aware, but he stated himself that his guard was down. Of course, you could say that he was just referring to her double cero, but there's still a good chance that he was underestimating Nelliel from the beginning as well.

First of all, not only is the page you're talking about exactly right after Nel stopped Nnoitra's cero with her hand and threw it back at him (she didn't actually kill him... but she did damage him), but what you're saying about him stating that his guard was down during their fight is not correct. Bleachexile has different scalantions (they don't make their own), usually they're not bad;however, that manga page that you linked (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html) in particular is a little vague and not very accurate in its translation.

Now, I did find Ju-Ni's scanlation which is also usually among the most accurate and credible. Here is their scanlation:


http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/bleach-ch292-07.png

Can be read online in this site: http://www.readbleach.com/#

Or downloaded here: http://bleachportal.net/bleach/multimedia/direct_manga

And here's Ju-Ni's official site (they also have it only for download somewhere in their site): http://ju-ni.net/


I also found Cnet's translation: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/368 (Cnet's translation is basically saying the same thing as Ju-Ni's scanlation above. You can check the link and see for yourself.)

My point is: Ju-Ni's scanlation and Cnet's translation makes it clear that Nnoitra only said that he should have been more careful because he had forgotten about Nel's cero doble, nothing more. It still doesn't change that fact that Nel showed that she was still capable of stopping his ceros with one hand, so it would logically mean that Nnoitra would have probably opted to not use a cero against Nel (at least not directly) had Nnoitra not have forgotten about Nel's cero doble. (the scanlation that Bleachexile used is also showing the same thing, but I suppose they just weren't as explicitly clear as Cnet's translation and Ju-Ni's scanlation...)

Furthermore, like Rikudou King said....when Nel cut Nnoitra, he actually saw her attack coming...yet he was still cut. It was neither a surprise hit nor a sneak attack.

Look here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-14.html ... in that page Nnoitra sees her coming, even if we assume that he really activates his hierro consciously, then unless he's an idiot... he must have done it right there. Then on the next page, Nel while attacking directly... successfully cuts him and makes him bleed. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html ... then on the next page, she sends him flying with just a kick, which has to be a testament of her superior strength. (as well as her later blocking his huge scythe with only her smaller sealed sword)

Nel was just that much faster than Nnoitra, in fact, she was speed blizting him.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html



It's been years since Nnoitra last saw Nelliel. That should be more than enough reason to underestimate her. He even stated this himself with his own words.

No it should not, unless Nnoitra is an idiot who let's himself be cut by a weaker person and then makes shocked faces while he also lets her send him flying with a kick (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html). That's seriously reaching...

No offense, but I don't buy the notion that Nnoitra was just underestimating Nel. Nnoitra had fought her many times in the past, thus he clearly knew her nature, personality, her fighting style, and how strong she was. It's just that Nnoitra is always thinking that he's going to win (he was the exact same way in the past), he also fights without a purpose just as Nel had stated, and knowing how Nel fights still didn't help Nnoitra because she was still better than him based on their recent performance while they were both sealed.

And to say that Nnoitra allowed her to cut him, would make no sense for obvious reasons, so it's only logical to assume that she can really cut through his Hierro. If she can cut through his hierro that easily while they're both sealed, then she can definitely do it while they're both released....specially since she also has Grimmjow on her side for extra backup. And Grimjoww should be able able to dispose of Luppi in a timely manner, considering that he has already done this: (Sorry, but it's really hard to ignore...)

http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-15/bleach/chapter-240.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-16/bleach/chapter-240.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-17/bleach/chapter-240.html



This panel is pretty self explanatory.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html

Huh? ...That panel is actually one of the biggest arguments for Nel holding back, when she could have easily either sliced off Nnoitra's head, or at least his neck... which would have killed him instantly.

You apparently completely ignored it when I brought this particular scene earlier, so please read it this time....

She had a good chance to slice off Nnoitra's head, but she showed him mercy as she decided to stop her sword in the middle of the attack. Nnoitra then managed to get his scythe around her and also stopped his weapon before he hit her;however, Nnoitra states that he only stopped his weapon in response because he saw that Nel stopped hers first (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html)... meaning that Nel was the faster one in that particular clash, and her sword would've sliced off Nnoitra's head before his scythe could really hit her. Remember that Nel was not only faster, but she was also able to easily cut Nnoitra (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html) despite him having the strongest hierro. In addition to that... we also know that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person, which still holds true in bleach. Particularly because we see Aizen putting barriers around his head and neck to protect himself from attacks directed towards those areas. Further, we also see Hisagi, a mere VC, killing released Tousen by stabbing him in his head. Therefore yeah... Nnoitra's head would have been gone or sliced in half, killing him instantly... had Nel been seriously trying to kill Nnoitra, rather than showing him mercy.

It's obvious that Nel was faster and could have killed him right there, but she showed him mercy like she always had. I had already even covered the fact that Nnoitra also mentioned how it even makes him remember "that time" and he says that Nel hasn't changed at all. There should be no doubt that even Nnoitra is recognizing that Nel had once again...spared his life, just like she always did in every single fight they had in the past. Therefore, it shouldn't be difficult to see why Nel was still superior in their most recent fight. She only lost ultimately because she reverted back to her child form...

Takahashi
December 23, 2010, 05:29 AM
Maybe it would have done more had it not been blocked. The point remains that she was going easy and throwing her lance wasn't a final attack. If anything, It was set up to her next attack. As for how he looked, He looks angry/pissed to me.

I still find it strange how she chucked her only weapon at him, there's a short off panel bit, and then she has it again...


Except the simple fact that Nnoitra could never beat Nelliel one on one all those years ago and needed help to actually win, That would be plenty of reason for him not to underestimate her. It wasn't bloodlust, But it was still hatred. All that we have seen from him suggest that he wouldn't go easy on any opponent.

Well he did repeatedly talk about how pathetic she was and that her old number meant nothing. His manner of speaking to her was always one of patronization, so I'd have to disagree that he was taking her seriously.


Hitsugaya being able to escape and not doing so doesn't mean they're shockingly fast. As for his eyes, They look to me like he's looking at them. Maybe it's perception. Luppi showed no other signs of holding back during the fight, So I don't see why he would have done so then, Regardless of personality.

Why would he attempt to block them if he had time to react and dodge? I think this is one of the few times we've seen a good speed blitz.


Those spikes look sort of flimsy. Anyhow, My point was that the difference shouldn't be so great that without them he simply knocks the guy down. At least Nelliel showed that she could do some lasting damage.

What lasting damage did Nel do to Noirtra? I recall him being in perfect shape before going up against Zaraki. As far as the spikes are concerned, it's a question mark, but it makes sense that they're there for increased power, to what degree though, we don't know.


Grimmjow was able to block a masked Ichigo's sword with his arm while he was going full speed (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-282-page-14.html). I would say that's a pretty good feat. Also, I never say Luppi couldn't hit them. I say they wouldn't have trouble with him. All eight of Luppi's tentacles weren't much of a threat to Hitsugaya. As for Nelliel, I didn't say she was faster then Luppi's tentacles, Although she likely is. I say she was faster then Luppi. Even if his attack was so fast they would have trouble blocking it, It doesn't mean much if they can move faster then him. The fact that they both are likely faster then Luppi mean that they can get up close where his tentacles won't matter and damage him if not murder.

This is still a 2 v 2, if any one of them disregards Noirtra and blitzes Luppi, they'd likely pay for it. The way I see it, Luppi is the support guy. Noirtra is the tank Espada with plenty more raw power than Grimmjow, Luppi can hit from multiple angles and has at least shown some good power and speed. Grimmjow and Nel might be the immediate superior looking team, but I'd imagine that both their personality and abilities would hold them back from working together, whereas Luppi and Noirtra seem like a much better fit.


Nnoitra stopped because Nelliel stopped. That doesn't really show he didn't desire to kill her. It was more he enjoyed taunting her.

Really? If I was in a sword fight with someone who I'd actually gone to the trouble to sneak attack and boot out of my house, I'm pretty sure I'd stab them the second they showed any hesitation.


In addition, We can't forget the fact that Nelliel has actually fought Nnoitra several times before. She knows how he fights and odds are she would be able to counter him even if he's stronger now.

I see this as the opposite. Noirtra's way could have drastically changed for all she knows, however Noirtra knows that because of her kid transformation, nothing about her can possibly be new.

Omiem
December 23, 2010, 02:35 PM
Why did she showed Nnoitra mercy as she spared his life when she had a clear good chance of either slicing his head off or at least slicing his throat when they were both sealed?

Neliel has always displayed a pacifist attitude and refusal to kill Nnoitra, even in their past fights Neliel refused to kill Nnoitora. In fact, the moment after Nel had the chance to slice off Nnoitra's head/neck, but she stopped because she didn't want to kill him... Nnoitra remembers how Nel was always like this, beating him up every time... and Nnoitra would tell her to finish him off but Nel would refuse to do that.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-294/page007.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-294-page-8.html

I mean, right after Nel spared Nnoitra's life by not slicing his head off or not slicing his throat, he outright says that it pisses him off... and that it makes him remember that time. Then Nnoitra proceeds to tell Nel that she really hasn't changed a damn bit...

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-293/page020.html

Nel is faster, stronger, and more level-headed. Considering that she also easily blocked his attacks with her much smaller weapon, sent him flying with a kick, made his cero completely useless by stopping it with her hand all while still being only in her sealed state, then she proceeded to make him nearly piss his pants when she released... I would say that Nel was humiliating him, and I really believe that she would have beaten Nnoitra had she not reverted back to her child form after only a few seconds of being in her released state.

No. She wasn't trying to really hurt him when she first released, she was trying to humiliate him first... and she did push him back as well as broke through his weapon with that Lanzador verde. She outright stated that she wasn't going to kill him; she was obviously holding back, and clearly looking down at him.

Mangashare's own scanlation: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-296/page016.html (other scanlations give the same message too, you can check the one at bleachexile which was posted earlier, and other scanlations in other sites if you want.)

Cnet's translation (which says the same thing as Mangashare's scanlation): http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/397

Would she have tried to really hurt him later on, at least as much as it was necessary to take him down? perhaps yes, but for how long was she able to stay in her adult form? No more than a few seconds after she released... and it's wasn't exactly her fault (Nel doesn't have the handicap or limitation of reverting back to her child form in this fantasy fight though). Nel completely outclassed Nnoitra when they were both sealed, thus I logically believe that she should at least be good enough to take him down when they're both released as well.
-Doesn't matter if she wasn't trying to kill Nnoitra. The whole point of Nelliel throwing her Lance in the first place was to protect Ichigo. So it would be logical that she was at least trying to injure Nnoitra. The fact that it didn't even draw a mere scratch is not due to Nelliel holding back, but due to Nnoitra's Hierro. Now if she did threw her Lance without holding back, would it pierce through his Hierro? Probably, but would it really injure him after seeing how her first Lance couldn't even draw a mere scratch? I highly doubt it, especially since we're not even considering a released Nnoitra. If you still stick by your claim of Nelliel holding back her Lance to the point where she didn't even want to lay a mere scratch on him(if that's what your implying), then we'll have to agree/disagree.

-Summary: I can say that I won't kill you. Does this mean that I'm not gonna injure you? Nope.

Stating that that Lanzador verde attack is her strongest attack and that that attack is the only thing that she could do as the former 3rd Espada in her released state... sounds ridiculous to me. Particularly considering that she completely outclassed him while they were both sealed, so yeah....
As you already know, I'm the type of person who goes by feats. If your gonna claim that she has another ace in her sleeve, then show me. Anyways, I'm not saying that throwing her Lance is literally the only thing she could do. I can still see Nelliel using her Lance as a melee weapon or using her double cero, but that's just about it.

First of all, not only is the page you're talking about exactly right after Nel stopped Nnoitra's cero with her hand and threw it back at him (she didn't actually kill him... but she did damage him), but what you're saying about him stating that his guard was down during their fight is not correct. Bleachexile has different scalantions (they don't make their own), usually they're not bad;however, that manga page that you linked (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-9.html) in particular is a little vague and not very accurate in its translation.

Now, I did find Ju-Ni's scanlation which is also usually among the most accurate and credible. Here is their scanlation:


http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/bleach-ch292-07.png

Can be read online in this site: http://www.readbleach.com/#

Or downloaded here: http://bleachportal.net/bleach/multimedia/direct_manga

And here's Ju-Ni's official site (they also have it only for download somewhere in their site): http://ju-ni.net/


I also found Cnet's translation: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/368 (Cnet's translation is basically saying the same thing as Ju-Ni's scanlation above. You can check the link and see for yourself.)

My point is: Ju-Ni's scanlation and Cnet's translation makes it clear that Nnoitra only said that he should have been more careful because he had forgotten about Nel's cero doble, nothing more. It still doesn't change that fact that Nel showed that she was still capable of stopping his ceros with one hand, so it would logically mean that Nnoitra would have probably opted to not use a cero against Nel (at least not directly) had Nnoitra not have forgotten about Nel's cero doble. (the scanlation that Bleachexile used is also showing the same thing, but I suppose they just weren't as explicitly clear as Cnet's translation and Ju-Ni's scanlation...)
I'll concede due to mis interpretation.

EDIT: However, I will say that Nnoitra was looking down on Nelliel as a fighter.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-10.html
So he was taking her lightly to some extent.

Furthermore, like Rikudou King said....when Nel cut Nnoitra, he actually saw her attack coming...yet he was still cut. It was neither a surprise hit nor a sneak attack.

Look here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-14.html ... in that page Nnoitra sees her coming, even if we assume that he really activates his hierro consciously, then unless he's an idiot... he must have done it right there. Then on the next page, Nel while attacking directly... successfully cuts him and makes him bleed. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html ... then on the next page, she sends him flying with just a kick, which has to be a testament of her superior strength. (as well as her later blocking his huge scythe with only her smaller sealed sword)

Nel was just that much faster than Nnoitra, in fact, she was speed blizting him.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html
I'm not exactly convinced that Nnoitra truly saw her attack coming.
IMO, it looks like he didn't know what just hit him after seeing the bottom left and top left panels of these pages.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html
Since Hierro is a conscious ability, it's plausible that Nnoitra just couldn't react in time to concentrate his Hierro in that part of his body. However, he did seem to have enough time against Nelliel's Lance.

No it should not, unless Nnoitra is an idiot who let's himself be cut by a weaker person and then makes shocked faces while he also lets her send him flying with a kick (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html). That's seriously reaching...

No offense, but I don't buy the notion that Nnoitra was just underestimating Nel. Nnoitra had fought her many times in the past, thus he clearly knew her nature, personality, her fighting style, and how strong she was. It's just that Nnoitra is always thinking that he's going to win (he was the exact same way in the past), he also fights without a purpose just as Nel had stated, and knowing how Nel fights still didn't help Nnoitra because she was still better than him based on their recent performance while they were both sealed.

And to say that Nnoitra allowed her to cut him, would make no sense for obvious reasons, so it's only logical to assume that she can really cut through his Hierro. If she can cut through his hierro that easily while they're both sealed, then she can definitely do it while they're both released....specially since she also has Grimmjow on her side for extra backup.
Okay, so Nelliel can cut Nnoitra. However, her attacks such as sealed sword, double cero, and Lance were pretty much mere scratches/bruises to Nnoitra than actual injuries. So lets see how she'll fair off against a released Nnoitra. The question is if Nelliel can take down Nnoitra before he lands his scythes on her. If she throws her Lance, then I can't really see that causing any serious damage especially since Nnoitra gets a strength boost after his release. If Nelliel fights CQC, then she'll have a tough time getting through Nnoitra's defenses without getting slashed herself.

And Grimjoww should be able able to dispose of Luppi in a timely manner, considering that he has already done this: (Sorry, but it's really hard to ignore...)

http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-15/bleach/chapter-240.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-16/bleach/chapter-240.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-17/bleach/chapter-240.html
Again, Luppi was already severely injured after taking Hitsugaya's SH. Plus, that was a sneak attack since Luppi wasn't even in a battle state of mind. Kind of like how Tousen lopped Grimmjow's arm off. I'll agree that Luppi is weaker, but he'll at least give Grimmjow a tough challenge due to the speed of those tentacles. Overall, I see Grimmjow beating Luppi, Nnoitra beating Nelliel, then Grimmjow losing to Nnoitra IMO. Or Nelliel beating Luppi, Nnoitra beating Grimmjow, then Nelliel losing to Nnoitra.

Huh? ...That panel is actually one of the biggest arguments for Nel holding back, when she could have easily either sliced off Nnoitra's head, or at least his neck... which would have killed him instantly.

You apparently completely ignored it when I brought this particular scene earlier, so please read it this time....

She had a good chance to slice off Nnoitra's head, but she showed him mercy as she decided to stop her sword in the middle of the attack. Nnoitra then managed to get his scythe around her and also stopped his weapon before he hit her;however, Nnoitra states that he only stopped his weapon in response because he saw that Nel stopped hers first (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html)... meaning that Nel was the faster one in that particular clash, and her sword would've sliced off Nnoitra's head before his scythe could really hit her. Remember that Nel was not only faster, but she was also able to easily cut Nnoitra (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html) despite him having the strongest hierro. In addition to that... we also know that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person, which still holds true in bleach. Particularly because we see Aizen putting barriers around his head and neck to protect himself from attacks directed towards those areas. Further, we also see Hisagi, a mere VC, killing released Tousen by stabbing him in his head. Therefore yeah... Nnoitra's head would have been gone or sliced in half, killing him instantly... had Nel been seriously trying to kill Nnoitra, rather than showing him mercy.

It's obvious that Nel was faster and could have killed him right there, but she showed him mercy like she always had. I had already even covered the fact that Nnoitra also mentioned how it even makes him remember "that time" and he says that Nel hasn't changed at all. There should be no doubt that even Nnoitra is recognizing that Nel had once again...spared his life, just like she always did in every single fight they had in the past. Therefore, it shouldn't be difficult to see why Nel was still superior in their most recent fight. She only lost ultimately because she reverted back to her child form...
Rikudou King was telling me why Nnoitra wasn't in the desire to kill. So in response, I gave him that panel which obviously answers his question. So yeah, you kinda mis interpreted my words right there.

Rikudou King
December 23, 2010, 06:29 PM
I still find it strange how she chucked her only weapon at him, there's a short off panel bit, and then she has it again... Why is it strange. It's clear that after she threw it and it hit Nnoitra, She went over and picked it up to finish the fight.


Well he did repeatedly talk about how pathetic she was and that her old number meant nothing. His manner of speaking to her was always one of patronization, so I'd have to disagree that he was taking her seriously. Except Nnoitra was talking down and patronizing her even back then, When she was clearly stronger. So that doesn't show he was underestimating her. Not only that, Nnoitra talks to all his opponents that way.


Why would he attempt to block them if he had time to react and dodge? I think this is one of the few times we've seen a good speed blitz. Because blocking is the common reaction and dodging wouldn't have stopped the attack.


What lasting damage did Nel do to Noirtra? I recall him being in perfect shape before going up against Zaraki. As far as the spikes are concerned, it's a question mark, but it makes sense that they're there for increased power, to what degree though, we don't know. Burnt his arm and cut his chest. Nnoitra may not have been hurting bad enough to suffer, But he wasn't in prefect shape.


This is still a 2 v 2, if any one of them disregards Noirtra and blitzes Luppi, they'd likely pay for it. The way I see it, Luppi is the support guy. Noirtra is the tank Espada with plenty more raw power than Grimmjow, Luppi can hit from multiple angles and has at least shown some good power and speed. Grimmjow and Nel might be the immediate superior looking team, but I'd imagine that both their personality and abilities would hold them back from working together, whereas Luppi and Noirtra seem like a much better fit. Why? What makes you think one couldn't take Luppi out while the other stalled Nnoitra. I would also question how Nnoitra showed more raw power then Grimmjow. Grimmjow was blasting everything apart while Nnoitra was mainly a physical fighter. Damage wise, Grimmjow did far more. Luppi in fact hasn't shown much speed or power. At most his attack is fast, But he personally wasn't anything dangerous.

As far as their personality for working together goes, The only Espada here that would be willing to do that is Nelliel. Grimmjow and Luppi may work with others if they must, But they prefer to act alone and Nnoitra has shown great dislike for anyone helping him. Heck, He attacked his own subordinate twice for presuming Nnoitra needed help.


Really? If I was in a sword fight with someone who I'd actually gone to the trouble to sneak attack and boot out of my house, I'm pretty sure I'd stab them the second they showed any hesitation. Even when they continued to act superior to you and show you mercy? You wouldn't fine it better to beat them down and return the humiliation they did to you?


I see this as the opposite. Noirtra's way could have drastically changed for all she knows, however Noirtra knows that because of her kid transformation, nothing about her can possibly be new. Nnoitra's doesn't seem like the type to drastically change, Especially when he's set in his ways. But say he did change his style of fighting, Nelliel would have known that once she began to fight. As for Nelliel having nothing new, So what? Nnoitra was never able to beat her, So her being the same doesn't hurt her any.

El Samurai Guapo
December 23, 2010, 06:39 PM
Not looking to get into another debate with anyone here but... going back and rereading all the Nel vs. Nnoitora chapters, I think that her lanzador verde actually did manage to pierce Nnoitora's shoulder and draw blood.

On the following pages, pay close attention to the area on Nnoitora's body where the lance hit him (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html). It looks completely unscathed right? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-7.html

Now look at the bottom second-to-the-left panel on this page here:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-19.html
That looks like blood to me near Nnoitora's hair.

Center panel on this page (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-20.html)is even more convincing. It appears as if some blood came straight down out of the exact area where the lance hit him (also notice how ecstatic Nnoitora is here; he definitely wasn't so happy while Nel was still in adult form). And no, that was not a bruise from Neliel's double-cero. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-8.html

In other words, Lanzador Verde still injured Nnoitora despite having through pierce through his blade first.

Raizen
December 23, 2010, 07:16 PM
I don't think anyone here is doubting that the lanze did not injure unreleased noitora. It did in fact hurt him. But so what. Ken inflicted damage on noitora much worse than what nel did and yet noitora kept on going as if he was fine. Noitora is technically the kenpachi of the espadas. From what nel's release showed, it is not too impressive. Once noitora releases, he has 6 arms, each with strength that can parry off even kenpachi, so once he releases, i don't think neither nel nor grimjow would be able to take him down

El Samurai Guapo
December 23, 2010, 07:33 PM
I don't think anyone here is doubting that the lanze did not injure unreleased noitora. It did in fact hurt him.


-Doesn't matter if she wasn't trying to kill Nnoitra. The whole point of Nelliel throwing her Lance in the first place was to protect Ichigo. So it would be logical that she was at least trying to injure Nnoitra. The fact that it didn't even draw a mere scratch is not due to Nelliel holding back, but due to Nnoitra's Hierro..

Raizen
December 23, 2010, 07:43 PM
.
LOL well that's obviously wrong. Noitora was clearly injured... but was he outclassed/defeated? Doubtful

Nicholas.Sama
December 23, 2010, 08:32 PM
The power difference between Grimmjow and Nnoitra isn't very note worthy from what I've seen. The most damage Nnoitra did was when he sliced a building in half. Grimmjow blew one to pieces with his elbow. While Nnoitra is more powerful for obvious reasons, he does not posses the speed or strength to deal with to deal with Nel and Grimm simultaneously.

Nnoitra's strengths: Power and Endurance, his speed is the worst.
Nel's: Well rounded
Luppi's: Power
Grimmjow's: Power and Speed

Luppi would be speed blitzed. Plain and Simple.
This fight is really Nel and Grim vs Nnoitra and Nnoitra can't handle that.

Grimmjow and Nel make a much better team strategy wise as well, and both of them have shown themselves to be pretty intelligent people. They also respect their comrades.

Also, is this a "Prime Nel" before getting head trauma or "Restored Nel" ?

Drakk707
December 23, 2010, 10:27 PM
I don't think anyone here is doubting that the lanze did not injure unreleased noitora. It did in fact hurt him. But so what. Ken inflicted damage on noitora much worse than what nel did and yet noitora kept on going as if he was fine. Noitora is technically the kenpachi of the espadas. From what nel's release showed, it is not too impressive. Once noitora releases, he has 6 arms, each with strength that can parry off even kenpachi, so once he releases, i don't think neither nel nor grimjow would be able to take him down

Luckily Grimmjow and Nel have both very stong ranged attacks, they don't even need to face Nnoitra directly, they can just surround him and blast him out with explosive darts, Desgarrón, Lanzador Verde, Double Ceros and Gran Rey Ceros. Nnoitra is just good at close range and his Sonido suckz so there, he's screwed.

Omiem
December 24, 2010, 12:42 AM
Not looking to get into another debate with anyone here but... going back and rereading all the Nel vs. Nnoitora chapters, I think that her lanzador verde actually did manage to pierce Nnoitora's shoulder and draw blood.

On the following pages, pay close attention to the area on Nnoitora's body where the lance hit him (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html). It looks completely unscathed right? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-7.html


Now look at the bottom second-to-the-left panel on this page here:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-19.html
That looks like blood to me near Nnoitora's hair.

Center panel on this page (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-20.html)is even more convincing. It appears as if some blood came straight down out of the exact area where the lance hit him (also notice how ecstatic Nnoitora is here; he definitely wasn't so happy while Nel was still in adult form). And no, that was not a bruise from Neliel's double-cero. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-8.html

In other words, Lanzador Verde still injured Nnoitora despite having through pierce through his blade first.
-Actually, that could just be Nnoitra's hair if you notice closely of where I'm pointing at.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra2-3-1.png

-If that truly was blood, then why doesn't he have any in these panels?
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra3-1.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra4.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra6.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra5.png

-Even if it was blood(doubt it), saying that it's an injury is pretty far fetch, don't you think? I mean, Nnoitra doesn't even look like was effected by that attack at all. He had no problems fighting against Kenpachi afterwards. Again, even though Nelliel didn't want to kill Nnoitra, that still doesn't mean she wouldn't want to incapacitate him. So really all your telling me is that Nelliel manage to draw a scratch on Nnoitra, which is still not very impressive IMO. Especially since we're not even considering a released Nnoitra who gets a major strength boost.

Jackk
December 24, 2010, 04:42 AM
I still find it strange how she chucked her only weapon at him, there's a short off panel bit, and then she has it again...

Not really. First, they're a fair distance away each other (Nnoitra even backed off when Nel started releasing), then she throws her lance at him (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-7.html), then we even see her lanza still traveling a significant distance, which also gives us a good perception of how far away Nnoitra was from Nel at that point. We also see in the bottom panel of that same page (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-8.html) where the Lanza is finally starting to reach Nnoitra and we see him getting ready to try to block the attack with his huge scythe. Then on the next page, the Lanza still managed to break through Nnoitra's weapon as well as hurt him a little, and it actually still had enough force to push him back and send him flying (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html)... as we see in the bottom panel of that page.

Then, like you said, we see Nel without her weapon... as she's just standing and looking at the distance (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-10.html). After that, we do have about 6 pages of Espada #8 Vs Nel's fraccions, and when it switches back to Nel... we see that not only does she have her weapon back now, but she is also right in front of Nnoitra (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-18.html). What I think most likely happened is that she used sonido to get to where Nnoitra was, then she quickly retrieved her weapon...and we already know the rest. Well it's either that, or she can summon her weapon back to her hand? :blink


Well he did repeatedly talk about how pathetic she was and that her old number meant nothing. His manner of speaking to her was always one of patronization, so I'd have to disagree that he was taking her seriously.

He was always this way. He would always claim that he was the strongest and that he would cut down anybody who looked down on him. He was definitely serious. It still didn't changed the fact that Nel would always beat him in the past, and that she had no troubles tossing him around and humiliating him while they were both sealed in their most recent performance, so yeah...


Why would he attempt to block them if he had time to react and dodge? I think this is one of the few times we've seen a good speed blitz.

Like Rikudou King said, blocking is the common reaction and dodging wouldn't have stopped the attack. Although I do want to add that besides that, there is also the fact that all those tentacles are not particularly that strong. First, we see Hitsugaya easily reacting to the first quick tentacle assault, and we see him successfully blocking and stopping it with his wings.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-6.html

In fact, Hitsu wasn't amused by the attack at all, and was asking if that was all Luppi had, while Luppi was actually surprised that Hitsu could stop his attack. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-7.html ... Furthermore, after Luppi asks him if he could deal with 8 of those, Hitsu is quickly attacked by the 8 tentacles, which again... he reacted to and attempted to block, and while he was hit and pushed down this time, he really received no serious damage himself. It appears that only parts of his wings got damaged that time around (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-10.html) (also meaning that he did block like the first time and his wings protected his body), though he later comments on the fact that he can restore those parts as long as there is water in the atmosphere. That was stated by Hitsu when we see him come back and defeat Luppi with his SH technique, and we also clearly see no injuries on hitsugaya himself.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-234-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-234-page-18.html

Further, I think it's interesting to note that what hitsugaya did was basically the same thing that we later see Shunsui doing in FKT. Yes, I'm talking about the time where Stark shoots Shunsui with a cero and sends him down to the ground. Stark completely forgets about Shunsui, but we later see that Shunsui was only "playing dead" according to Lisa. Then, Shunsui waited some time before coming out to fight, and I would say even longer than what Hitsugaya waited to come out again. Now, what Shunsui did was wait for the moment where his zanpakutou would be on the mood for his games, as well as wait for a good time to strike Stark with a sneak attack from behind... while what Hitsugaya did was also wait for his zanpakutou to prepare his SH technique, which he used to encase and defeat Luppi. In addition, Stark was busy with Love and Rose, while Luppi was toying with the VCs, and then he was also interrupted by Urahara and his arrival. Neither Shunsui nor Hitsugaya had been drastically hurt in either scene etc. (given that they were able to get up and continue fighting to beat their opponent, even if they both used a surprise attack...)

One last thing regarding Luppi's tentacles, there is also the fact that when Kisuke came in, he easily and very casually shot a nameless energy attack from a far distance and easily cut and sliced Luppi's tentacle, so yeah... I don't think his tentacles are that strong. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-233-page-12.html


What lasting damage did Nel do to Noirtra? I recall him being in perfect shape before going up against Zaraki.

Well... she did burn him with the cero... specially his arm (http://www.mangareader.net/94-746-7/bleach/chapter-292.html), and well as cut his chest and made him lose blood (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html). Not to mention the psychological damage that Nel must have caused Nnoitra after tossing him around in more than one occasion, specially with just a kick in one of the occasions (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html). Further, while the damage that Nnoitra received obviously was not severe enough to be life threatening to him (but then again, Nel was still holding back and not trying to kill Nnoitra as per her own words), the damage that Nel dealt to him was still on Nnoitra when he was facing Kenpachi, so yeah... it was lasting. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-298-page-19.html And Nnoitra was definitely not in perfect shape...


Really? If I was in a sword fight with someone who I'd actually gone to the trouble to sneak attack and boot out of my house, I'm pretty sure I'd stab them the second they showed any hesitation.

Well you're not Nnoitra though. And it appears that Nnoitra only stopped reflexively in response to Nel stopping her sword first in the middle of the attack during that clash. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html... doesn't mean Nnoitra wasn't serious when Nel was tossing him around and cutting him... unless he's an idiot who let's himself be tossed around and cut by someone weaker and inferior to him, which would make no sense. Particularly since he hated Nel and how she always looked down on him etc.


I see this as the opposite. Noirtra's way could have drastically changed for all she knows

Except she Nel didn't seem to be interested to know if he had changed or not because she still told Ichigo that she was going to beat him. Besides, it's also obvious that she would have noticed quickly as the fight started that he's the same Nnoitra in terms of personality, as in: still thinking that he's the best and fighting people without him having a true purpose besides simply fighting them because they piss him off for no particular reason etc. And as for Nnoitra's strength... he was still not good enough to hurt Nel. Heck, Nnoitra couldn't even land a hit on her, so yeah...


however Noirtra knows that because of her kid transformation, nothing about her can possibly be new.

Actually, her kid transformation and her time away could have changed her personality through the years;however, it was actually after Nel stops her sword from slicing off Nnoitra's head/neck...that Nnoitra realizes that Nel had not changed at all (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-22.html)... after all this time. She was still holding back and refusing to kill him...just as she would always do in the past.


-Doesn't matter if she wasn't trying to kill Nnoitra. The whole point of Nelliel throwing her Lance in the first place was to protect Ichigo. So it would be logical that she was at least trying to injure Nnoitra. The fact that it didn't even draw a mere scratch is not due to Nelliel holding back, but due to Nnoitra's Hierro. Now if she did threw her Lance without holding back, would it pierce through his Hierro? Probably, but would it really injure him after seeing how her first Lance couldn't even draw a mere scratch? I highly doubt it, especially since we're not even considering a released Nnoitra. If you still stick by your claim of Nelliel holding back her Lance to the point where she didn't even want to lay a mere scratch on him(if that's what your implying), then we'll have to agree/disagree.

Except that she did, in fact, hurt him while they were both sealed. And when Nel released... she still threw her lance from a significant distance giving Nnoitra time to block, yet the lance still cut through his huge scythe, and pushed Nnoitra back...sending him flying some distance. Not to mention that the lance, after breaking through his weapon, did actually pierce Nnoitra's skin and hurt him a little. El Samurai Guapo did a pretty good job in further examining that particular scene.



Not looking to get into another debate with anyone here but... going back and rereading all the Nel vs. Nnoitora chapters, I think that her lanzador verde actually did manage to pierce Nnoitora's shoulder and draw blood.

On the following pages, pay close attention to the area on Nnoitora's body where the lance hit him (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-9.html). It looks completely unscathed right? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-7.html

Now look at the bottom second-to-the-left panel on this page here:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-19.html
That looks like blood to me near Nnoitora's hair.

Center panel on this page (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-296-page-20.html)is even more convincing. It appears as if some blood came straight down out of the exact area where the lance hit him (also notice how ecstatic Nnoitora is here; he definitely wasn't so happy while Nel was still in adult form). And no, that was not a bruise from Neliel's double-cero. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-8.html

In other words, Lanzador Verde still injured Nnoitora despite having through pierce through his blade first.



-Summary: I can say that I won't kill you. Does this mean that I'm not gonna injure you? Nope.

It may or may not mean that you're going to injure me. Now, talking about Nel's case specifically...she did hurt Nnoitra, so I think your point is moot. Granted she didn't severely injure him to the point the he was in a life threatening situation;however, that was already explained by Nel outright stating that she was not trying to kill him and her clearly holding back, as well as her only being able to stay in her adult form for a few seconds after being in her released state. She still dominated him, and Nnoitra couldn't hurt Nel at all. He couldn't even hurt her while they were both in their sealed state either.


As you already know, I'm the type of person who goes by feats. If your gonna claim that she has another ace in her sleeve, then show me. Anyways, I'm not saying that throwing her Lance is literally the only thing she could do. I can still see Nelliel using her Lance as a melee weapon or using her double cero, but that's just about it.

But I'm also going by feats. Nel completely outclassed Nnoitra while they were both in their sealed state. It's only logical that she should have more abilitys or techniques as the released 3rd Espada than simply just tossing her lance. You know full well that I can't show them to you because she was only able to stay in her adult form for a few seconds after she released, which isn't exactly Nel's fault... nor isn't my fault either. Besides being able to use the lance as a melee weapon and doing ceros and cero dobles... she may have something else, but yeah no way to know what at this point. Either way though... she was still faster and stronger than him while they were both sealed, so she is likely faster and stronger while they are both released as well. And she did hurt him a little with the lance, and then proceeded to mention the fact that she wasn't trying to kill him. She was holding back etc.


I'll concede due to mis interpretation.

EDIT: However, I will say that Nnoitra was looking down on Nelliel as a fighter.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-292-page-10.html
So he was taking her lightly to some extent.

I've already covered this. He was always like that, and it still didn't stop Nel from beating him in the past, and it still didn't stop Nel from beating him recently. (she was holding back, and still clearly had the upper-hand while they were both sealed and when she released too, until she reverted back to child form). I don't buy the notion that he was underestimating her or taking her lightly, then just letting her kick him around and letting him cut him... I don't think Nnoitra is that much of an idiot. I think Nel showed that she was still superior.


I'm not exactly convinced that Nnoitra truly saw her attack coming.
IMO, it looks like he didn't know what just hit him after seeing the bottom left and top left panels of these pages.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html
Since Hierro is a conscious ability, it's plausible that Nnoitra just couldn't react in time to concentrate his Hierro in that part of his body. However, he did seem to have enough time against Nelliel's Lance.

First of all, as I've already shown...he saw the attack coming and it was a direct attack, so even if hierro has to be activating consciously...he must have activated it there, and it would make no sense for it to take him that long to activate it...so that argument really doesn't fly, in my opinion. And if we still go your route, then you're essentially saying that she was so fast that Nnoitra can't react to her direct attack, and so she's going to be able to cut him either way. Fact is: she has demonstrated that she can cut him, and make him bleed. On the other hand, Nnoitra couldn't hurt Nel at all...

Further, I don't even believe that hierro has to be activated consciously. And you really seem to be pushing it as fact, even though it was just how some person interpret it in some other forum from the link that you provided earlier. Further, full translation of Yammi's profile can be found here too: http://bleachasylum.com/threads/15426-Bleach-Character-Book-2-Masked?p=2591973&viewfull=1#post2591973 ...apparently his hierro boasts a hardness that is only second to Nnoitra. This link that I'm providing has pretty much the same thing that the link you provided earlier had, except that nobody in the link I provided (from Bleach Asylum) seemed to have made any mention of hierro needing to be activated consciously. Anyway, that translation of Yami's data book profile does includes a part that states the following:

"Yammi got his arm lopped off in an instant. The grim reason is for misreading his opponent's power. The right arm was retrieved and then afterwards restored."

Now, you know what? That particular paragraph isn't even giving any new info. from Kubo. Look in the following spoiler:


http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/193/014.jpg

Here's the link: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-193/page014.html


Basically that data book translation is restating something that Kubo had already stated long ago through Ulquiorra in that particular scene. And says that if only Yammi had taken the second to sense Ichigo's spirit pressure, he might have been ready for the attack. Meaning that maybe he might have had a chance to dodge or block with his own sword etc... And that data book translation is only stating that Yami lost his arm for misreading his opponent's power, which is entirely true according to that manga page where Ulquiorra makes note of that. Yami did underestimate Ichigo (although Yami really underestimates all his opponents, and he's always talking big... if you think about it), but it doesn't mean that Ichigo still wasn't better than him anyway.

In fact, Ulquiorra even says: "Still though...for that kid to cut through Yami's hierro" (steel skin)... Therefore, I think that it's actually safe to say that Yami's hierro was actually active, as even Ulquiorra mentions that Ichigo was able to cut through it. Nothing was ever mentioned about them needing to actually consciously activate their hierro, and Ulquiorra's statements seem to indicate that it's always active.


Okay, so Nelliel can cut Nnoitra. However, her attacks such as sealed sword, double cero, and Lance were pretty much mere scratches/bruises to Nnoitra than actual injuries.

Yup, she can definitely cut him. And she also tossed him around, as well spared his life when she had a clear good chance of slicing off his head/neck. Then Nel also outright stated that she wasn't going to kill him. She was holding back. In addition, when exactly was Nnoitra even able to scratch Nel? Yeah... he couldn't even hit her.


So lets see how she'll fair off against a released Nnoitra. The question is if Nelliel can take down Nnoitra before he lands his scythes on her.

Considering that she was faster than him while they were both sealed, to the point that she was speed blitzting him (I've already provided plenty of links as evidence of her superior speed in previous posts)... I would say that released Nel would also be faster than released Nnoitra, so yes.


If she throws her Lance, then I can't really see that causing any serious damage especially since Nnoitra gets a strength boost after his release.

Unless she was holding back power when she launched that first lanzador verde, which is likely given that she told Nnoitra that she wasn't going to kill him etc. And she was only able to stay in her adult form for a few second after she was in her released state, so she didn't really get a chance to show what she could really do as the former released 3rd espada.


If Nelliel fights CQC, then she'll have a tough time getting through Nnoitra's defenses without getting slashed herself.

Unless released Nel is faster and stronger, which is likely given that she was faster and stronger than Nnoitra while they were both sealed.


Again, Luppi was already severely injured after taking Hitsugaya's SH. Plus, that was a sneak attack since Luppi wasn't even in a battle state of mind. Kind of like how Tousen lopped Grimmjow's arm off. I'll agree that Luppi is weaker, but he'll at least give Grimmjow a tough challenge due to the speed of those tentacles.

Luppi wasn't in perfect shape, but I wouldn't say that he was "severely injured" either. And I don't believe that Luppi's tentacles are as fast as you claim. I already showed how Hitsugaya easily blocked one, and then was quickly attacked by 8 all of a sudden, which he was still able to block with his wings. Granted his wings got damaged, but Hitsu himself received no significant damage... And he decided to stay down below to prepare a finishing move, which really only encased Luppi in ice and he wasn't physically looking that bad when he was let out of the ice... (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-17.html). It's not like Hitsugaya's SH was some massive cutting or explosive attack that killed his enemy instantly (In fact, Luppi was still alive). It seems more like Hitsu's SH takes some unknown time to finish off his opponent while inside the ice.


Overall, I see Grimmjow beating Luppi, Nnoitra beating Nelliel, then Grimmjow losing to Nnoitra IMO. Or Nelliel beating Luppi, Nnoitra beating Grimmjow, then Nelliel losing to Nnoitra.

Overall, I see Grimmjow beating Luppi, then Grimmjow and Nel together beating Nnoitra. Although I do think that Nel has a good chance of beating Nnoitra on her own.


Rikudou King was telling me why Nnoitra wasn't in the desire to kill. So in response, I gave him that panel which obviously answers his question. So yeah, you kinda mis interpreted my words right there.

No, you missed my point when I replied to you. I showed you why Nnoitra stopped his weapon. Again, Nnoitra only stopped reflexively in response to Nel stopping her sword first in the middle of the attack during that clash. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...3-page-22.html... doesn't mean Nnoitra wasn't serious when Nel was tossing him around and cutting him... unless he's an idiot who let's himself be tossed around and cut by someone weaker and inferior to him, which would make no sense. Particularly since he hated Nel and how she always looked down on him etc.


-Actually, that could just be Nnoitra's hair if you notice closely of where I'm pointing at.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra2-3-1.png


No, it looks to me like his hair is not on his shoulders nor on his chest.


-If that truly was blood, then why doesn't he have any in these panels?

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra3-1.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra4.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra6.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra5.png



Because it was a tiny cut, the bleeding simply stopped later. It's still relevant because you had stated that he didn't even receive a scratch from that, but it seems like he did and there was a tiny bit of bleeding.


-Even if it was blood(doubt it), saying that it's an injury is pretty far fetch, don't you think? I mean, Nnoitra doesn't even look like was effected by that attack at all. He had no problems fighting against Kenpachi afterwards.

I believe that it was only brought up because you had stated that he didn't even receive a scratch from the lance.


Again, even though Nelliel didn't want to kill Nnoitra, that still doesn't mean she wouldn't want to incapacitate him. So really all your telling me is that Nelliel manage to draw a scratch on Nnoitra, which is still not very impressive IMO. Especially since we're not even considering a released Nnoitra who gets a major strength boost.

And Nel was clearly holding back (she still outclassed him while they were both sealed though), as I've already noted... and I even presented evidence from the manga to support that claim. Further, I don't think that she wanted to incapacitate him right there and then.... with that first lance attack, in fact, she calmly approached him and told him that she wasn't going to kill... and she was looking down on him. It looked to me like she was attempting to humiliate him. She was looking confident, and wasn't trying to seriously injure him just yet. Again, She only lost ultimately because she reverted back to her child form...

Omiem
December 24, 2010, 02:00 PM
Except that she did, in fact, injured him while they were both sealed. And when Nel released... she still threw her lance from a significant distance giving Nnoitra time to block, yet the lance still cut through his huge scythe, and pushed Nnoitra back...sending him flying some distance. Not to mention that the lance after breaking through his his weapon did actually pierced Nnoitra's skin and injured him a little. El Samurai Guapo did a pretty good job in further examining that particular scene.





It may or may not mean that you're going to injure me. Now, talking about Nel's case specifically...she did injure Nnoitra, so I think your point is moot. Granted she didn't severely injure him to the point the he was in a life threatening situation;however, that was already explained by Nel outright stating that she was not trying to kill him and her clearly holding back, as well as her only being able to stay in her adult form for a few seconds after being in her released state. She still dominated him, and Nnoitra couldn't hurt Nel at all. He couldn't even hurt her while they were both in their sealed state either.



But I'm also going by feats. Nel completely outclassed Nnoitra while they were both in their sealed state. It's only logical that she should have more abilitys or techniques as the released 3rd Espada than simply just tossing her lance. You know full well that I can't show them to you because she was only able to stay in her adult form for a few seconds after she released, which isn't exactly Nel's fault... nor isn't my fault either. Besides being able to use the lance as a melee weapon and doing ceros and cero dobles... she may have something else, but yeah no way to know what at this point. Either way though... she was still faster and stronger than him while they were both sealed, so she is likely faster and stronger while they are both released as well. And she did hurt him a little with the lance, and then proceeded to mention the fact that she wasn't trying to kill him. She was holding back etc.



I've already covered this. He was always like that, and it still didn't stop Nel from beating him in the past, and it still didn't stop Nel from beating him recently. (she was holding back, and still clearly had the upper-hand while they were both sealed and when she released too, until she reverted back to child form). I don't buy the notion that he was underestimating her or taking her lightly, then just letting her kick him around and letting him cut him... I don't think Nnoitra is that much of an idiot. I think Nel showed that she was still superior.



First of all, as I've already shown...he saw the attack coming and it was a direct attack, so even if hierro has to be activating consciously...he must have activated it there, and it would make no sense for it to take him that long to activate it...so that argument really doesn't fly, in my opinion. And if we still go your route, then you're essentially saying that she was so fast that Nnoitra can't react to her direct attack, and so she's going to be able to cut him either way. Fact is: she has demonstrated that she can cut him, and make him bleed. On the other hand, Nnoitra couldn't hurt Nel at all...

Further, I don't even believe that hierro has to be activated consciously. And you really like seem to be pushing it as fact, even though it was just how some person interpret it in some other forum from the link that you provided earlier. Further, full translation of Yammi's profile can be found here too: http://bleachasylum.com/threads/15426-Bleach-Character-Book-2-Masked?p=2591973&viewfull=1#post2591973 ...apparently his hiero boasts a hardness that is only second to Nnoitra. This link that I'm providing has pretty much the same thing that the link you provided earlier had, except that nobody in the link I provided (from Bleach Asylum) seemed to have made any mention of hierro needing to be activated consciously. Anyway, that translation of Yami's data book profile does includes a part that states the following:

"Yammi got his arm lopped off in an instant. The grim reason is for misreading his opponent's power. The right arm was retrieved and then afterwards restored."

Now, you know what? That particular paragraph isn't even giving any new info. from Kubo. Look in the following spoilers:


http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/193/014.jpg

Here's the link: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-193/page014.html


Basically that data book translation is restating something that Kubo had already stated long ago through Ulquiorra in that particular scene. And says that if only Yammi had taken the second to sense Ichigo's spirit pressure, he might have been ready for the attack. Meaning that maybe he might have had a chance to dodge or block with his own sword etc... And that data book translation is only stating that Yami lost his arm for misreading his opponent's power, which is entirely true according to that manga page where Ulquiorra makes note of that. Yami did underestimate Ichigo (although Yami really underestimates all his opponents, and he's always talking big... if you think about it), but it doesn't mean that Ichigo still wasn't better than him anyway.

In fact, Ulquiorra even says: "Still though...for that kid to cut through Yami's hierro" (steel skin)... Therefore, I think that it's actually safe to say that Yami's hierro was actually activate, as even Ulquiorra mentions that Ichigo was able to cut through it. Nothing was ever mentioned about them needing to actually consciously activate their hierro, and Ulquiorra's statements seem to indicate that it's always activate.



Yup, she can definitely cut him. And she also tossed him around, as well spared his life when she had a clear good chance of slicing off his head/neck. Then Nel also outright stated that she wasn't going to kill him. She was holding back. In addition, when exactly was Nnoitra even able to scratch Nel? Yeah... he couldn't even hit her.



Considering that she was faster than him while they were both sealed, to the point that she was speed blitzting him (I've already provided plenty of links as evidence of her superior speed in previous posts)... I would say that released Nel would also be faster than released Nnoitra, so yes.



Unless she was holding back power when she launched that first lanzador verde, which is likely given that she told Nnoitra that she wasn't going to kill him etc. And she was only able to stay in her adult form for a few second after she was in her released state, so she didn't really get a chance to show what she could really do as the former released 3rd espada.



Unless released Nel is faster and stronger, which is likely given that she was faster and stronger than Nnoitra while they were both sealed.



Luppi wasn't in perfect shape, but I wouldn't say that he was "severely injured" either. And I don't believe that Luppi's tentacles are as fast as you claim. I already showed how Hitsugaya easily blocked one, and then was quickly attack by 8 all of a sudden, which he was still able to block with his wings. Granted his wings got damaged, but Hitsu himself received no significant damage... And he decided to stay down below to prepare a finishing move, which really only encased Luppi in ice and he wasn't physically looking that bad when he was let out of the ice... (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-17.html). It's not like Hitsugaya's SH was some massive cutting or explosive attack that killed his enemy instantly (In fact, Luppi was still alive). It seems more like Hitsu's SH takes some unknown time to finish off his opponent while inside the ice.



Overall, I see Grimmjow beating Luppi, then Grimmjow and Nel together beating Nnoitra. Although I do think that Nel has a good chance of beating Nnoitra on her own.



No, you missed my point when I replied to you. I showed you why Nnoitra stopped his weapon. Again, Nnoitra only stopped reflexively in response to Nel stopping her sword first in the middle of the attack during that clash. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...3-page-22.html... doesn't mean Nnoitra wasn't serious when Nel was tossing him around and cutting him... unless he's an idiot who let's himself be tossed around and cut by someone weaker and inferior to him, which would make no sense. Particularly since he hated Nel and how she always looked down on him etc.
I'm gonna end this right here, but I appreciated the good points you made, so yeah.

No, it looks to me like his hair is not on his shoulders nor on his chest.
You don't see that tiny strip of hair sticking out? Anyways, this may help you get the idea of what I'm talking about.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra2-4-1.png
It's kinda similar to how the anime drew it.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/animennoitra-1.jpg

Because it was a tiny cut, that bleeding simply stopped later. It's still relevant because you had stated that he didn't even receive a scratch from that, but it seems like he did and there was a tiny bit of bleeding.
Like I said above, that was just Nnoitra's hair. Anyways, the blood stain should've still been there even if it did stop bleeding. Instead, Nnoitra seems to be unscathed.

I believe that it was only brought up because you had stated that he didn't even receive a scratch from the lance.
Yes, but you guys are claiming that it was an injury, which isn't true since Nnoitra didn't seem to be effected by that attack at all. If there was blood which I highly doubt, then Nnoitra only suffered a mere scratch. That's still not even close to an injury, especially in the world of Bleach where we have little girls surviving from being cut in half -_-;

Jackk
December 24, 2010, 03:40 PM
I'm gonna end this right here, but I appreciated the good points you made, so yeah.

Well thanks, and fair enough. A lot of this does come down to opinion, so yeah...

Nevertheless, I still really feel that it's not right to claim as a fact that hierro has to be activated consciously. Particularly when this was never stated, and there is also evidence in the manga that suggests that it's always active.


You don't see that tiny strip of hair sticking out? Anyways, this may help you get the idea of what I'm talking about.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra2-4-1.png

I think that the black lines are part of the design of his outfit. Sorry, but
I honestly don't see hair there. His hair does not seem be on his neck or chest... since the air is blowing his hair back in that particular scene.


It's kinda similar to how the anime drew it.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/animennoitra-1.jpg

Actually the anime clearly drew his hair different in that particular scene, and the anime is not cannon, so yeah...


Like I said above, that was just Nnoitra's hair. Anyways, the blood stain should've still been there even if you claim that it stopped bleeding. Instead, Nnoitra seems to be unscathed.

Well look here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html ... Nell undeniably cut Nnoitra and made him bleed quite a bit, also notice in the bottom panel of that same page where Nnoitra seems to have a cut and there are blood stains. And yet he later has no cut nor blood stains in that area (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html), even though he was undeniably cut and blood came out in that particular area.

I think he got a minor cut from the lance, in which case there doesn't necessarily have to still be a blood stain on him.... And even then, I highly doubt that Nel threw her lance with all her power. Not to mention that she did throw it from a pretty significant distance as I've already shown, gave Nnoitra time to block, and the lance still broke through his weapon... and then proceeded to push Nnoitra and send him flying. His face didn't show that he was enjoying it either, and the fact that Nel quickly appeared in front of him with a very confident look...and then proceeded to tell him that she won't kill him as he looks down on him, leads me to believe that she was simply attempting to humiliate him first. Tell me, if she was seriously trying to injure him with that first lazador verde, why was she not surprised that he was still not really injured? Why was she still confident that she would win and was still looking down on him?

She wasn't trying to seriously injure him just yet....and she was only able to stay in her adult form for a few seconds after she was in her released state after all (she also had no idea that she was going to revert back to her child form). Further, she clearly had the upper while they were both sealed, and Nnoitra couldn't even hurt nor give a scratch to her, so yeah....


Yes, but you guys are claiming that it was an injury, which isn't true since Nnoitra didn't seem to be effected by that attack at all. If there was blood which I highly doubt, then Nnoitra only suffered a mere scratch. That's still not even close to an injury, especially in the world of Bleach where we have little girls surviving from being cut in half -_-;

Well he wasn't seriously injured, you're right in that regard. In fact, I was thinking about that before I even started reading your latest post and made this reply. I actually edited my previous post in some places to change the word injure for the word hurt, since "injure" probably isn't the most appropriate word....as well as fixed some grammatical errors that I had since I made that post late at night. Anyway, it may have been a poor choice of words on my part initially;however, it doesn't change the fact that you stated that she wasn't even able to scratch him, which I don't think is true...

El Samurai Guapo
December 24, 2010, 03:49 PM
-Actually, that could just be Nnoitra's hair if you notice closely of where I'm pointing at.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra2-3-1.png

What the...that does NOT look like hair at all. Even if the area where you point at was hair, everything directly below is still clearly dried blood on Nnoitora's body.


-If that truly was blood, then why doesn't he have any in these panels?
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra3-1.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra4.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra6.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/nnoitra5.png

Same reason why the cut she gave him across the chest while she was sealed is also gone? Same reason why in pretty much all of the bleach fights you'll see wounds disappear and reappear because Kubo's wound consistency is terrible.


-Even if it was blood(doubt it), saying that it's an injury is pretty far fetch, don't you think? I mean, Nnoitra doesn't even look like was effected by that attack at all. He had no problems fighting against Kenpachi afterwards. Again, even though Nelliel didn't want to kill Nnoitra, that still doesn't mean she wouldn't want to incapacitate him. So really all your telling me is that Nelliel manage to draw a scratch on Nnoitra, which is still not very impressive IMO. Especially since we're not even considering a released Nnoitra who gets a major strength boost.

Well, like Jackk said, I only pointed it out because you were repeatedly stating that the lance didn't even leave a scratch on him, which was obviously wrong. Of course it was nothing severe at all by Bleach standards, and nobody here is claiming that either. What it does show is that her lance could pierce his hierro though, even after being partially blocked. It also shows us that her weapon was stronger than his, so if the two clashed blades, hers would cut through his. And no, there's no reason to believe that releasing increases the durability of Nnoitora's weapons. Also, Nnoitora can't regenerate his weapons, only his arms http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v35/c310/13.html. Basically what I'm trying to say is if he tries to block attacks from lanzador verde his runs the risk of having his blades cut through and losing them.

I don't see where we're even debating Luppi's viability here. The dude was fodder that didn't even deserve to be the 9th espada. I think that one fraccion that Hitsugaya fought before gave him more trouble than Luppi. And even if Luppi was a threat to Toushirou, that's just goes to show that Toushirou is still pretty weak and inexperienced compared to other captains. I think Grimmjow vs. Toushirou would be a VERY close fight and it would probably require Toushirou to bring out his most lethal bankai techniques to even slow Grimmjow down. Bankai vaizard Ichigo had a lot of trouble cutting through Grimmjow's hierro (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-282-page-14.html); Toushirou has never demonstrated exemplary cutting power so honestly his only hope would be to trap him using HH like he did to Harribel.

Nnoitora himself would have a lot of trouble with Grimmjow. Released he was as fast as bankai Ichigo with is mask on; Nnoitora would definitely have a hard time landing hits on him. And like other posters have pointed out, Grimmjow has multiple ranged attacks that he can use without getting close to Nnoitora. Grimmjow could also apparently fly, and was far more explosive than Nnoitora. Nnoitora was a tank (as in he had strong defense), but I don't think his raw power came close rivaling Grimmjow's. Grimmjow was tossing Ichigo all over (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-281-page-13.html) the place with smacks from his limbs (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-281-page-15.html). http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-282-page-13.htmlThe best Nnoitora did was launch Kenpachi into one of those round red structures. Getting hit with multiple elbow darts from Grimmjow would injure Nnoitora IMO. Only reason why Ichigo was even still standing after taking 5 of those in the back was because of hollowfication, which is a tremendous boost in defense. Even GJ's base cero was more impressive than Nnoitora's, being able to easily push through GT (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-280-page-15.html). As an off-topic side note, I think this also goes to show just how lethal Shinji's cero is. Grimmjow fired his cero at the last second to try and deflect Shinji's, and it was totally overpowered by Shinji's cero and sent GJ flying.
In other words, Shinji's cero >>>>>>>>>>>>>> GJ's cero>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bankai GT.

Omiem
December 24, 2010, 09:52 PM
Well I don't see why it's hard to believe that it's just Nnoitra's hair. Guess I can't really force you guys to see it the way I do, so we'll just disagree/agree.

Takahashi
December 25, 2010, 12:48 AM
Why is it strange. It's clear that after she threw it and it hit Nnoitra, She went over and picked it up to finish the fight.

It's strange because Noirtra did nothing to stop her from picking up her one and only weapon. Noirtra wasn't so hurt from that attack that he was finished, I just found it odd that he just kind of sat there long enough for her to gallop over to him.


Except Nnoitra was talking down and patronizing her even back then, When she was clearly stronger. So that doesn't show he was underestimating her. Not only that, Nnoitra talks to all his opponents that way.

I never said he was underestimating her, but I see no proof that he was being completely serious either. As far as his other opponents, one was Ichigo, who he trashed, and he had Kenpachi completely outclassed until he got a face full of Kendo. He had the advantage in his fights, so I don't find it unusual that he shit talked them.


Because blocking is the common reaction and dodging wouldn't have stopped the attack.

A common reaction? If he was fast enough to dodge it, it makes sense that he would have, Hitsugaya's not such an amateur that he'll take damage just to test out the durability of his wings. Also, those tentacles have massive gaps, it's fully possible to dodge them.


Burnt his arm and cut his chest. Nnoitra may not have been hurting bad enough to suffer, But he wasn't in prefect shape.

Noirtra is the Kenpachi Espada, his injuries were minor even against an ordinary person in Bleach, let alone a tank like him.


Why? What makes you think one couldn't take Luppi out while the other stalled Nnoitra. I would also question how Nnoitra showed more raw power then Grimmjow. Grimmjow was blasting everything apart while Nnoitra was mainly a physical fighter. Damage wise, Grimmjow did far more. Luppi in fact hasn't shown much speed or power. At most his attack is fast, But he personally wasn't anything dangerous.

Noirtra's strength was commented on by Ichigo, who had just fought Grimmjow. And come on, he could block an eyepatchless Kenpachi with ONE arm, let alone the other five he has available, I don't even like him, but I'd bet on him over Grimmjow in a second.


As far as their personality for working together goes, The only Espada here that would be willing to do that is Nelliel. Grimmjow and Luppi may work with others if they must, But they prefer to act alone and Nnoitra has shown great dislike for anyone helping him. Heck, He attacked his own subordinate twice for presuming Nnoitra needed help.

Umm. He worked with Szayel in order to take out Nel. It wouldn't surprise me if he did it again. He may not like Luppi, but he'd definitely cooperate with him to kill Nel.


Even when they continued to act superior to you and show you mercy? You wouldn't fine it better to beat them down and return the humiliation they did to you?

Nope, I'd cut them down. It's clear who's superior if one is dead and the other is alive.


Nnoitra's doesn't seem like the type to drastically change, Especially when he's set in his ways. But say he did change his style of fighting, Nelliel would have known that once she began to fight. As for Nelliel having nothing new, So what? Nnoitra was never able to beat her, So her being the same doesn't hurt her any.

Doesn't matter. You said that HE was at the disadvantage because Nel knows how he fights. All I was saying was that he has the POTENTIAL to be different, Nel does not, so if anything, he has the advantage.

Raizen
December 27, 2010, 06:32 PM
Luckily Grimmjow and Nel have both very stong ranged attacks, they don't even need to face Nnoitra directly, they can just surround him and blast him out with explosive darts, Desgarrón, Lanzador Verde, Double Ceros and Gran Rey Ceros. Nnoitra is just good at close range and his Sonido suckz so there, he's screwed.
If ichigo can take on those darts AND grimjow's best attacks, then noitora defiinitely can considering noitora is much tougher than ichigo. It won't do them much good if their attacks can't manage to injure noitora

Jackk
December 27, 2010, 10:28 PM
If ichigo can take on those darts AND grimjow's best attacks, then noitora defiinitely can considering noitora is much tougher than ichigo. It won't do them much good if their attacks can't manage to injure noitora

No offense, but I don't think you remember those particular fights very well...

Ichigo's power does fluctuate (at least Ichigo's power did fluctuate prior to his dangai training), specially with respect to his mood and amount of resolve. Even Ulquiorra stated that ichigo's power can be higher than his own (and Ulquiorra is definitely more powerful than Nnoitra). Now, yes, vaizard Ichigo and released Grimmjow were more or less equal during most of their fight;however, near the end... Ichigo's resolve raised due to Orihime telling him not to get hurt, and with that resolve, we see Ichigo was able to catch grimmjows's hand without even looking, as if it was nothing, then proceeds to cut Grimmjow quite easily...

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/20.html

Then, with his resolve, Ichigo proceeds to cut through Grimmjow's ultimate technique as if it were nothing, and then defeats Grimmjow as well.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/15.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/17.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/21.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/22.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c286/4.html

Ichigo's power was clearly significantly better than grimmjow's. And Ichigo had no troubles defeating him once he got his resolve high enough, having the reason he needed to keep on fighting. Therefore, no, there is nothing that suggests that Nnoitra could have beaten a healthy + resolved vaizard Ichigo.....considering how easily Ichigo defeated Grimmjow once Ichigo got his act together. In short: I would say that Ichigo actually has the power to beat Nnoitra as well. (Ichigo's resolve needs to be high, and he need to not be injured though...)

Now, while I obviously believe that Nnoitra is overall better than Grimmjow, I also don't believe that the difference between Espada #6 and Espada #5 is that big that Grimmjows's best attacks can't manage to hurt Nnoitra. Not to mention that Nnoitra could not even scratch Nel...yet Nel was speed blizting Nnoitra while they were both sealed etc. (I've already covered Nel Vs Nnoitra more in detail in previous posts though)

Takahashi
December 27, 2010, 11:00 PM
I agree that 100% resolved Ichigo would do well against Noirtra. However, I still don't think that Nel was actually going to ever beat Noirtra. Ichigo said it himself that she was getting beaten (although much of the fight was off panel). And clearly she wasn't better than him sealed to any significant degree, or else why resurrect?

She cut him, and got him off guard with a Cero, but the amount of damage we saw him take against Kenpachi was FAR greater, and he was still fine. It makes me think he would have come out on top in a Mantis VS Centaur battle.

Raizen
December 27, 2010, 11:22 PM
@ jackk, all i know is the author made it clear that a lower espada cannot beat a higher ranked espada. And based on the tnaking abilities of noitora, I can very much say most if not all of grimjow's attacks will be ineffective

Takahashi
December 27, 2010, 11:24 PM
@ jackk, all i know is the author made it clear that a lower espada cannot beat a higher ranked espada. And based on the tnaking abilities of noitora, I can very much say most if not all of grimjow's attacks will be ineffective

That's true, he even made it clear in the hell special chapter, but then we have people like Yammy, and then it becomes easy to question Kubo's logic.

Jackk
December 28, 2010, 01:55 AM
I agree that 100% resolved Ichigo would do well against Noirtra. However, I still don't think that Nel was actually going to ever beat Noirtra. Ichigo said it himself that she was getting beaten (although much of the fight was off panel).

Actually, most of the fight was not off panel, and what we did see was Nel outclassing Nnoitra. And Ichigo still didn't know how strong Nel really was (how would he know?... he's never seen her in action). Really, taking anything that worried Ichigo said as a defense for Nnoitra really doesn't fly as a good argument, in my opinion. I mean, Ichigo was clearly underestimating Nel and he didn't even want Nel to fight to begin with (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-12.html). It has to be clear that Ichigo was worrying unnecessarily...and something that also supports this is the fact that even after Ichigo sees that Nel has a number 3 on her back (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-13.html), even after Ichigo sees Nel easily attacking directly and cutting Nnoitra (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html), even after Ichigo sees Nel sending Nnoitra flying with a kick (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html)....Ichigo STILL shows a lot of worry for Nel when Nnoitra readies his cero (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-17.html), as if Nel was going to get beaten by that... yet we then see how Nel easily stops Nnoitra's cero with one hand (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-18.html) (not to mention Nnoitra's shocked faces throughout the fight... there was no way that Nnoitra wasn't being serious). Ichigo was clearly worrying about Nel unnecessarily throughout the whole fight...


And clearly she wasn't better than him sealed to any significant degree, or else why resurrect?

She was better. As I've shown before, she was speed blitzing him.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-293-page-21.html

She could have sliced off Nnoitra's head or his neck, which would have killed him instantly. She was faster than him, and Nnoitra himself recognized this as he also stated that he basically stopped reflexively in response to Nel stopping her sword first. If Nel hadn't stopped, Nnoitra would have been dead, it's that simple really. As I've already pointed out in a previous post, Nnoitra even goes as far as noting that Nel made him remember that time (and we're even shown flashbacks) where Nel would always beat him up, but she would always refuse to deal the finishing blow. We later even have Nel outright stating that she wasn't going to kill Nnoitra, which leads me to believe that she was definitely holding back.

As for why she released first, I had already covered this in the very first post that I made in this thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2227711&postcount=22)...


As for released Nel.... she likely used her released form first because she wanted to end the fight even faster going by her initial intentions of wanting to end the fight quickly just as she had told Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-13.html). And it's also obvious that she wanted to impress Ichigo as a "thank you" for protecting her while she was in her child form (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-11.html). Furthermore, it's also obvious that Nel had the upper hand when they were both sealed, so yeah... despite her being rusty, she would naturally have the upper hand in a released fight too.

In addition, the fact that she ultimately didn't get a chance to beat him faster with her released state was not due to Nel not being capable, but actually due to the fact that she reverted back to her child form after only a few seconds of being in her released state. Further, right before Nel unexpectedly reverted back to her child form... she was still looking confident and looking down on Nnoitra, which also further supports the belief that she was certainly holding back.


She cut him, and got him off guard with a Cero, but the amount of damage we saw him take against Kenpachi was FAR greater, and he was still fine. It makes me think he would have come out on top in a Mantis VS Centaur battle.

She cut him, speed blitzed him, she sent him flying with a kick, and she could have sliced off his head or his throat but decided to spare his life. Then, about the cero... she didn't simply got him with a cero, she actually stopped Nnoitra's own cero with one hand too!... and from that we can see that his ceros are pretty much useless against her. Unless he can somehow sneak up on her to hit her while catching her off guard, but given that Nel showed superior speed... I don't see Nnoitra being able to outmaneuver her. Also, I wouldn't say that Nel was only able to hit Nnoitra with the cero doble by catching him while he had his guard down, in fact, I had already shown, in a previous post, that Nnoitra did not say that his guard was down, but rather that he had forgotten about her ability to use cero doble and that because of that he should've been more careful. It doesn't mean that he would've been able to stop the cero, perhaps he would've opted not to throw a cero at Nel if only he had remembered that she could absorb them etc.

Considering that Nel was more level-headed, stronger, and faster than Nnoitra while they were both sealed, as well as the fact that Nnoitra failed to hurt Nel at all, and the fact that Nel was also holding back as she spared Nnoitra's life in one occasion, then later outright stated that she wasn't going to kill him...makes me think that Nel would still come out on top in a Mantis VS Centaur battle.


@ jackk, all i know is the author made it clear that a lower espada cannot beat a higher ranked espada. And based on the tnaking abilities of noitora, I can very much say most if not all of grimjow's attacks will be ineffective

Well... it seems that you didn't read my previous post correctly. I even noted that I believe that Nnoitra is overall better than Grimmjow, just that I don't think that Nnoitra's reiatsu is that much higher that he would render even Grimmjow's best attacks useless or ineffective like you're claiming. Grimmjow's strongest attacks should definitely be able to hurt Nnoitra. I mean, it's not as if Nnoitra was among the top 4 Espadas...whos reiatsu was so high that they were not allowed to release inside the temple of Las Noches. The difference in reiatsu between the 5th Espada and the 6th Espada can't be that high, and we know that Espadas were only ranked by reiatsu. Sure, perhaps Grimmjow may not be able to beat Nnoitra in a fair 1 on 1 fight, but I see this fight quickly becoming Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra (Luppi does not impress me, to say the least... and I've already given several reasons).

El Samurai Guapo
December 28, 2010, 02:22 AM
I actually do think Grimmjow has a shot at defeating Nnoitora. I must have missed the part where the author made it clear a lower ranked espada would always lose to higher ranked one. I can easily think of exceptions to this so called rule. Someone want to tell me they actually believe Barragan couldn't kill Yammi? See, I think the way the abilities match up against each other is more important than which one of them has higher reiatsu (which the only thing ranks tell us), particularly when it comes to a mere 1 rank difference.

I was overall more impressed by Grimmjow. He was much faster, had more power behind his attacks, had a myriad of ranged attacks, a more impressive base cero, and was overall more explosive. Nnoitora on the other hand...the only advantage I see him having over GJ is hierro—something GJ isn't exactly lacking in either.

Oh, and Ichigo could definitely take Nnoitora if he's at 100% when the fight starts. Once you get over the hurdle of getting used to cutting through his hierro, the guy is a pushover IMO.

Takahashi
December 28, 2010, 03:15 AM
:blink

Haha, ahhh Jackk, only you can respond to a sentence and toss out an essay as an argument :tem

Anyway, before Ichigo said she was being beaten, we see her getting tossed around. It's implied that at that moment, Nel did not have the upper hand, that's why I said off panel, there's a Szayael Apporo bit in the meantime, and it was for most of the chapter that we didn't see anything from Nel and Noir.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html

If you can use being kicked (or some sort of blunt force injury), facial expressions, and someone having the opportunity for a kill, I can too. And that page and the following one displays all that. That page followed by Ichigo's comment makes me think it's not as cut and dry as you're saying.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-13/bleach/chapter-294.html

He says he was kicking the shit out of her, he's clearly landed something, or at the very least had her against the ropes. In fact, in many panels, he seems to be overpowering her when they clash.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-749-16/bleach/chapter-295.html

Again, Noirtra basically says he's winning. And she clearly says she didn't want to have to resort to this, meaning she was forced to.

Look at it like Ichigo VS Aizen. Ichigo had the advantage over Aizen, so why did he use FGT? Because he had to in order to end it so the Hogokyu didn't heal him. Nell's current attacks just weren't sufficient to win against Noirtra, whether it be his Hierro, weapon, power, whatever. SOMETHING about Noirtra was making her unable to win, so she had no choice but to transform.

I still don't know why you think the minor injuries Noirtra received means that he wouldn't stand a chance against her. Noirtra is a tank, he's like Kenpachi, as such, he's going to be knocked around a bit so that we can see that's he's damn durable.

Not saying Noirtra is > Nel, but I don't buy it that Nel is vastly superior to Noirtra like people are suggesting.

Raizen
December 28, 2010, 05:58 PM
Well... it seems that you didn't read my previous post correctly. I even noted that I believe that Nnoitra is overall better than Grimmjow, just that I don't think that Nnoitra's reiatsu is that much higher that he would render even Grimmjow's best attacks useless or ineffective like you're claiming. Grimmjow's strongest attacks should definitely be able to hurt Nnoitra. I mean, it's not as if Nnoitra was among the top 4 Espadas...whos reiatsu was so high that they were not allowed to release inside the temple of Las Noches. The difference in reiatsu between the 5th Espada and the 6th Espada can't be that high, and we know that Espadas were only ranked by reiatsu. Sure, perhaps Grimmjow may not be able to beat Nnoitra in a fair 1 on 1 fight, but I see this fight quickly becoming Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra (Luppi does not impress me, to say the least... and I've already given several reasons).
Your whole argument is based on this one assumption, nothing else. And your only reason thoughts about grim and nel winning is because u believe luppi sucks, which i don't see. Grimjow took an injured luppi by surprised. It was not like luppi was at full strength. He was owned by hitsu's ice prison. If anything, nel was not impressive in her released state. What if the opponent dodged the lance? She would be completely vulnerable

Jackk
December 28, 2010, 06:01 PM
:blink

Haha, ahhh Jackk, only you can respond to a sentence and toss out an essay as an argument :tem

Nah... I'm sure that I'm not the only one. Really, you're giving me too much credit. All I am these days, is the poor owner of a small time candy store.


Anyway, before Ichigo said she was being beaten, we see her getting tossed around. It's implied that at that moment, Nel did not have the upper hand, that's why I said off panel, there's a Szayael Apporo bit in the meantime, and it was for most of the chapter that we didn't see anything from Nel and Noir.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html


I don't think that Nel was being tossed around. Granted it appears that she was pushed in one instance, but nothing more. How she was pushed was done off panel after all, but considering that she had the upper hand throughout most of the fight, I really don't think that Nnoitra just started dominating her all of a sudden... it would make no sense. Besides, Nnoitra was still not able to hurt Nel at all. In fact, Nel was able to get up immediately as you can see in that very seem page, in the bottom right panel where she's now even facing forward and on her way to Nnoitra again. And the bottom left panel of that same page we see a lot of lines, which seems to be Nel using sonido to get the advantage again with her superior speed. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html ... I also believe that she did that (getting up and using her superior speed) because right on the next page...we also see the scene where she was clearly faster than Nnoitra and could have sliced off his head or his throat, which would've killed him instantly had she decided to actually kill him instead of sparing his life. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-19/bleach/chapter-293.html ... In other words, those two scenes go together. Nel gets pushed somehow, but then she gets up immediately and uses her superior speed to get in a position where she could have sliced off his head or his throat had she been seriously trying to kill him.

Then after that, it's when Ichigo says that she was getting beat and that he wanted to save her (http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-3/bleach/chapter-294.html), which really the part about her getting beat wasn't true because, again, right after Nel was simply pushed, she got up immediately and was able to point her sword at Nnoitra's head/neck before Nnoitra could do anything, and she did all this right in front of Ichigo. Therefore, like I said before... Ichigo was worrying about her unnecessarily since Nel clearly showed that she had the upper hand. (just like earlier after Nel showed the #3 on her back and was shown being faster and cutting Nnoitra... Ichigo STILL showed a lot of worry for her when Nnoitra readied his cero, yet we then saw how useless Nnoitra's cero was against Nel...) Further, even faster Ichigo claims that she's getting beat, Nel once again proves him wrong by stopping Nnoitra's huge scythe with her smaller sealed sword. Seriously, Nnoitra couldn't even land a hit on Nel with his huge scythe....http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-12/bleach/chapter-294.html Further, Nel was shown confident in her ability to win throughout the fight, and I'm sure that Nel knows her power more than Ichigo....

In short: Ichigo's words and him getting worried meant nothing because we have Nel clearly proving him wrong several times... and showing that she was superior. You know what they say... "actions mean more than words."


If you can use being kicked (or some sort of blunt force injury), facial expressions, and someone having the opportunity for a kill, I can too.

How? You're trying to argue something from off-panel scenes... yet I'm showing you that before and after the off-panel scene, what we did see was Nel being superior. Nnoitra could not even scratch Nel with his huge scythe....


And that page and the following one displays all that. That page followed by Ichigo's comment makes me think it's not as cut and dry as you're saying.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-13/bleach/chapter-294.html


The following page was NEL being superior as she was clearly faster and could have sliced off Nnoitra's head or throat, but she spared his life. Nnoitra himself recognizes that as I've already pointed out several times. And I've already covered how Ichigo's comment means nothing since he was worried throughout the whole fight, even though Nel was showing that she was better...otherwise, why couldn't Nnoitra even manage to scratch Nel with his weapon?


He says he was kicking the shit out of her, he's clearly landed something, or at the very least had her against the ropes. In fact, in many panels, he seems to be overpowering her when they clash.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-749-16/bleach/chapter-295.html


I had already covered that fact that Nnoitra is always talking big, and thinking that he's stronger than anyone else. He's always thinking that he's going to win, and he was the exact same way in the past too. Therefore, Nnoitra talking like that doesn't mean that he was truly going to win...specially given the fact that Nel was holding back and that she was still shown confident in her ability to win that fight. In fact, after Nel unexpectedly reverted back to her child form, Nnoitra says: "...Give it up. Neliel was the last hope for the lot of ya, and now that hope's gone." http://www.mangareader.net/94-751-2/bleach/chapter-297.html ...That clearly implies that Nnoitra himself is recognizing that Nel, at bare minimum, definitely had a chance of beating him.

Also, just so there is no doubt that Nnoitra did, in fact, say that and there is no mistranslation... here is Cnet's translation of that chapter: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/406


Again, Noirtra basically says he's winning. And she clearly says she didn't want to have to resort to this, meaning she was forced to.

Nnoitra didn't say that he was winning. He was talking big though since he was still as arrogant as he's always been. And no, I've already noted that Nel didn't resort to her ressurecction because she was forced to in order to beat him, but rather because she wanted to beat him faster. I mean, she clearly had the upper hand when they were both sealed, in fact, she had a great opportunity to slice off his head or his throat had she been really trying to kill him, but she spared his life. It seems obvious to me that Nel wanted to really overpower and humiliate him first, and not seriously injure him just yet. It wasn't exactly her fault that she could not display what she could really do in her released state... given that she unexpectedly reverted back to her child form after only a few seconds after she released...


Look at it like Ichigo VS Aizen. Ichigo had the advantage over Aizen, so why did he use FGT? Because he had to in order to end it so the Hogokyu didn't heal him.

No, sorry but that's a very bad comparison for reasons that should be obvious. I'll give one though: Nnoitra is not immortal; he has no Hogyouku.


Nell's current attacks just weren't sufficient to win against Noirtra, whether it be his Hierro, weapon, power, whatever. SOMETHING about Noirtra was making her unable to win, so she had no choice but to transform.

How strange... because Nel was able to easily cut through Nnoitra's hierro, Nnoitra's weapon could not even scratch her, and she was blocking it with her smaller sealed sword. Nnoitra also never showed greater power... even his cero was completely stopped by Nel with one hand. Nothing suggests that she was unable to win, in fact, as I've already pointed out... Nnoitra himself told Ichigo that Nel was their last hope, which, at bare minimum, clearly implies that even Nnoitra recognizes that she definitely had a chance of beating him.


I still don't know why you think the minor injuries Noirtra received means that he wouldn't stand a chance against her. Noirtra is a tank, he's like Kenpachi, as such, he's going to be knocked around a bit so that we can see that's he's damn durable.

It's actually more how Nel was able to hurt Nnoitra, coupled with the fact that Nnoitra couldn't even scratch her with his huge weapon. And she was clearly faster, even going as far as having a clear chance to slice off his throat but she decided to spare his life. It would have been different had Nnoitra been shown keeping up with her and cutting her with his weapon too, but Nnoitra could not cut her; she was faster than him.


Not saying Noirtra is > Nel, but I don't buy it that Nel is vastly superior to Noirtra like people are suggesting.

I don't know about the degree of her superiority, but given what we saw from them.... I definitely believe that she is superior to some extent, and that she would have come out on top in the end... had she not reverted back to her child form. Besides, I believe that this fight will really be Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra... since I think that Luppi can be taken out in a timely manner by either Grimmjow or Nel. Therefore, Grimmjow and Nel definitely have more chances of winning, in my opinion.

Takahashi
December 28, 2010, 06:29 PM
Nah... I'm sure that I'm not the only one. Really, you're giving me too much credit. All I am these days, is the poor owner of a small time candy store.

haha well played :amuse




I don't think that Nel was being tossed around. Granted it appears that she was pushed in one instance, but nothing more. How she was pushed was done off panel after all, but considering that she had the upper hand throughout most of the fight, I really don't think that Nnoitra just started dominating her all of a sudden... it would make no sense. Besides, Nnoitra was still not able to hurt Nel at all. In fact, Nel was able to get up immediately as you can see in that very seem page, in the bottom right panel where she's now even facing forward and on her way to Nnoitra again. And the bottom left panel of that same page we see a lot of lines, which seems to be Nel using sonido to get the advantage again with her superior speed. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html ... I also believe that she did that (getting up and using her superior speed) because right on the next page...we also see the scene where she was clearly faster than Nnoitra and could have sliced off his head or his throat, which would've killed him instantly had she decided to actually kill him instead of sparing his life. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-19/bleach/chapter-293.html ... In other words, those two scenes go together. Nel gets pushed somehow, but then she gets up immediately and uses her superior speed to get in a position where she could have sliced off his head or his throat had she been seriously trying to kill him.

Then after that, it's when Ichigo say that she was getting beat and that he wanted to save her (http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-3/bleach/chapter-294.html), which really the part about her getting beat wasn't true because, again, right after Nel was simply pushed, she got up immediately and was able to point her sword at Nnoitra's head/neck before Nnoitra could do anything, and she did all this right in front of Ichigo. Therefore, like I said before... Ichigo was worrying about her unnecessarily since Nel clearly showed that she had the upper hand. (just like earlier after Nel showed the #3 on her back and was shown being faster and cutting Nnoitra... Ichigo STILL showed a lot of worry for her when Nnoitra readied his cero, yet we then saw how useless Nnoitra's cero was against Nel...) Further, even faster Ichigo claims that she's getting beat, Nel once again proves him wrong by stopping Nnoitra's huge scythe with her smaller sealed sword. Seriously, Nnoitra couldn't even land a hit with his scythe on Nel....http://www.mangareader.net/94-748-12/bleach/chapter-294.html Further, Nel was shown confident in her ability to win throughout the fight, and I'm sure that Nel knows her power more than Ichigo....

In short: Ichigo's words and him getting worried meant nothing because we have Nel clearly proving him wrong several times... and showing that she was superior. You know what they say... "actions mean more than words."

I was just trying to show that she was either overpowered or booted or something, not unlike what she did to Noirtra.

As far as the stalemate stop, it's not like Noirtra would have been the only one to die there. That scythe is huge, and having it in your midsection would definitely do a lot of damage, if not kill you. I'd give the edge to Nel sure, but I don't think it's really fair to Noirtra to say he was finished right there, we've seen people dodge swords inches away from their face before.





How? You're trying to arguing something from off-panel scenes... yet I'm showing you that before and after the off-panel scene, what we did see was Nel being superior. Nnoitra could not even scratch Nel with his huge scythe....

What do you mean? The actual impact may have been off panel, but you can't deny that Nel was on the receiving end of SOME sort of impact, just like when Noirtra got booted in the face.

You used Noirtra being kicked, Noirtra's facial expressions, and the fact that Nel could have killed him when they stopped. All I provided was Nel being kicked, Nel's facial expressions, and the fact that Noirtra could have killed her when they stopped. Pretty much exactly the same evidence.

Not saying Noirtra did lots of damage to her, but the opposite is true as well.




The following page was NEL being superior as she was clearly faster and could have sliced off Nnoitra's head or throat, but she spared his life. Nnoitra himself recognizes that as I've already pointed out several times. And I've already covered how Ichigo's comment means nothing since he was worried throughout the whole fight, even though Nel was showing that she was better...otherwise, why couldn't Nnoitra even manage to scratch Nel with his weapon?

Well, both Ichigo and Noirtra implied that Noirtra was winning. I'd assume it was that Noirtra was simply overpowering her when they clashed (likely the reason she was thrown in that one panel). I've said it before, neither did all that much damage. I'm not really pushing the idea that Noirtra was winning, I just think people are giving all the advantages to Nel, and I don't think that's really true.


I had already covered that fact that Nnoitra is always talking big, and thinking that he's stronger than anyone else. He's always thinking that he's going to win, and he was the exact same way in the past too. Therefore, Nnoitra talking like that doesn't mean that he was truly going to win...specially given the fact that Nel was holding back and that she was still shown confident in her ability to win that fight. In fact, after Nel unexpectedly reverted back to her child form, Nnoitra says: "...Give it up. Neliel was the last hope for the lot of ya, and now that hope's gone." http://www.mangareader.net/94-751-2/bleach/chapter-297.html ...That clearly implies that Nnoitra himself is recognizing that Nel, at bare minimum, definitely had a chance of beating him.

I never said she had no chance of beating him. I just don't think that Nel is going to have an overwhelming win like many people seem to think.


Also, just so there is no doubt that Nnoitra did, in fact, say that and there is was no mistranslation... here is Cnet's translation of that chapter: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/406

I know it wasn't a mistranslation, in fact I have the book right here.



Nnoitra didn't say that he was winning. He was talking big though since he was still as arrogant as he's always been. And no, I've already noted that Nel didn't resort to her ressurecction because she was forced to in order to beat him, but rather because she wanted to beat him faster. I mean, she clearly had the upper hand when they were both sealed, in fact, she had a great opportunity to slice off his head or his throat had she been really trying to kill him, but she spared his life. It seems obvious to me that Nel wanted to really overpower and humiliate him first, and not seriously injure him just yet. It wasn't exactly her fault that she could not display was she could really do in her released stated... given that she unexpectedly reverted back to her child form after only a few seconds after she released...

I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion, I don't see either of us convincing the other on this one. But fair enough, I know she didn't get to show much while released, I never really used that as a negative against her.




No, sorry but that's a very bad comparison for reasons that should be obvious. I'll give one though: Nnoitra is not immortal, he has no Hogyouku.

No it's not. Immortality wasn't my point. Noirtra only suffered a single small cut on his chest as far as blood loss goes. Nothing Nel did to him while sealed could even remotely be considered fatal. She would have to chip at him all day to actually finish him off, so she went to a more powerful form to end things quickly. Just like Ichigo's attacks were not sufficient to kill Aizen, so he used his most powerful attack to end it.

The regeneration isn't what matters, but the fact that the base form was not sufficient to guarantee a win/kill.




How strange... because Nel was able to easily cut through Nnoitra's hierro, Nnoitra's weapon could even scratch her, and she was blocking it with her smaller sealed sword. Nnoitra also never showed greater power... even his cero was completely stopped by Nel with one hand. Nothing suggests that she was unable to win, in fact, as I've already pointed out... Nnoitra himself told Ichigo that Nel was their last hope, which, at bare minimum, clearly implies that even Nnoitra recognizes that she definitely had a chance of beating him.

Easily cut through? Noirtra suffered a single small cut on his chest. In the Bleach world, that is at best a scratch.




It's actually more how Nel was able to hurt Nnoitra, coupled with the fact that Nnoitra couldn't even scratch her with his huge weapon. And she was clearly faster, even going as far as having a clear chance to slice of his throat but she decided to spare his life. It would have been different had Nnoitra been shown keeping up with her and cutting her with his weapon too, but Nnoitra could not cut her; she was faster than him.

Again, it was ONE cut. Against the Espada Kenpachi. 1 cut> 0 cuts, but that doesn't mean that Nel is more powerful to any significant degree.




I'm don't know about the degree of her superiority, but given what we saw from them.... I definitely believe that she is superior to some extent, and that she would have come out on top in the end... had she not reverted back to her child form. Besides, I believe that this fight will really be Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra... since I think that Luppi can be taken out in a timely manner by either Grimmjow or Nel. Therefore, Grimmjow and Nel definitely have more chances of winning, in my opinion.

Granted, Luppi wasn't the best choice as we've already seen him defeated. I'm actually not even sure how a fight would go with Luppi included, I'd bet on him being able to hurt Grimmjow but probably lose in the end. If it was injured Grimm and full Nel, I'd see them winning, but it would take a while. Noirtra's defense is impressive to say the least, only one of his six arms was required to block and parry Kenpachi's uneyepatched strike.

Jackk
December 28, 2010, 09:34 PM
Your whole argument is based on this one assumption, nothing else. And your only reason thoughts about grim and nel winning is because u believe luppi sucks, which i don't see. Grimjow took an injured luppi by surprised. It was not like luppi was at full strength. He was owned by hitsu's ice prison.

And your whole argument is based on the assumption that Nnoitra's reiatsu is so much higher than Grimmjow's (even though there is only a difference of one number between them)...that Grimmjow's best attacks would be completely ineffective. Espadas are ranked by reiatsu, but it was never stated how much of a difference in reiatsu each Espada has with respect to another, not to mention that abilities are also important. And there is also the fact that Hisagi, a mere VC, could kill ressurected Tousen by stabbing him in the head, then we even have Nnoitra (When he was only espada #8) stabbing Nel in the head with a sneak attack in order to beat her. And don't even get me started with the mess that was Yammi as the #0 Espada... even Kenpachi said that the fight was boring, yet his fight with Nnoitra was fun to him....

As for luppi, it's not as if Grimmjow sneak attacked Luppi from behind or something. In fact, Grimmjow casually attacked directly... I mean, they were even looking at each other.... I think it's obvious that Luppi was aware of the situation and he knew that Grimmjow was planning to attack him...as Luppi asks: "What are you planning? ...Grimmjow. http://www.mangareader.net/94-694-15/bleach/chapter-240.html Then Grimmjow proceeds to blitz Luppi, impale him with his hand, and then finish him off with a cero. The way in which Grimmjow beat Luppi is hard to ignore, it was way too easy...thus I'm lead to believe that even a healthy Luppi would still lose. In addition, I had already even covered the fact that Luppi wasn't even severely injured. As I noted before, Hitsugaya only encased Luppi in ice and Luppi wasn't physically looking that bad when he was let out of the ice... (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-17.html). It's not as if Hitsugaya's SH was some massive cutting or explosive attack that killed his enemy instantly (in fact, Luppi was still alive). It seems more like Hitsu's SH takes some unknown time to finish off his opponent while inside the ice.


If anything, nel was not impressive in her released state. What if the opponent dodged the lance? She would be completely vulnerable

Was Nnoitra able to dodge it? No...

Nel threw the lance from a significant distance as I've already pointed out in a previous post. Yet Nnoitra could barely block it and the lance still broke through his weapon, hurt him a little, and then proceeded to continue its course pushing Nnoitra and sending him flying some distance. Then Nel uses her superior speed to appear in front of him, quickly retrieve her weapon and then says that she wasn't going to kill Nnoitra, which clearly suggests that she was holding back. Not to mention her very confident look, and the fact that she was only able to stay in her adult form for only a few seconds after she released.


haha well played :amuse

I'm just glad we both have a sense of humor. :toc


I was just trying to show that she was either overpowered or booted or something, not unlike what she did to Noirtra.

She was pushed somehow, once. Trying to argue that something more happened to her "off-panel"... is not a good idea, in my opinion... given that nothing definite can be said from most off-panel scenes. And there's the fact that what we actually did see was Nel having the upper hand.


As far as the stalemate stop, it's not like Noirtra would have been the only one to die there. That scythe is huge, and having it in your midsection would definitely do a lot of damage, if not kill you. I'd give the edge to Nel sure, but I don't think it's really fair to Noirtra to say he was finished right there, we've seen people dodge swords inches away from their face before.

We've never seen Nnoitra dodging a sword inches away from his face. Nel also showed that she was faster than Nnoitra. Not to mention that the fact that she would have landed her hit on his head or throat first...means that Nnoitra would have died pretty much instantly. I don't think that his scythe would have landed a killing blow on her the moment his head is being sliced in half or the moment his throat is being sliced off...


What do you mean? The actual impact may have been off panel, but you can't deny that Nel was on the receiving end of SOME sort of impact, just like when Noirtra got booted in the face.

Like I said, She was pushed somehow, once. Yet you're trying to argue that something more happened to her in that off panel scene, but I don't buy it. After all, she didn't even have any injuries or anything of that sort.


You used Noirtra being kicked, Noirtra's facial expressions, and the fact that Nel could have killed him when they stopped. All I provided was Nel being kicked, Nel's facial expressions, and the fact that Noirtra could have killed her when they stopped. Pretty much exactly the same evidence.

Not saying Noirtra did lots of damage to her, but the opposite is true as well.

Not exactly though. Nel was not being kicked, or at least that was not shown... she was simply pushed, once... somehow;however, she immediately got back up and used her superior speed to put herself in position where she could have killed Nnoitra. Also, what facial expressions from Nel are you talking about? The only surprised face that Nel showed was after seeing that Nnoitra was able to get back up after the cero doble...since she remembered him being weaker and thought that that would have been enough to beat him. I don't recall seeing any other surprised, much less shocked faces from Nel. In fact, she looked pretty confident to me throughout most of the fight.

As for Nnoitra being able to kill her when they stopped... I really don't think that he would have been able to pull it off, given that Nel showed that she was faster. Besides, Nnoitra basically said that he reflexively stopped as a response to seeing Nel stopping her own weapon first. On the other hand, Nel actually stopped completely intentionally because she was not trying to kill Nnoitra.



Well, both Ichigo and Noirtra implied that Noirtra was winning. I'd assume it was that Noirtra was simply overpowering her when they clashed (likely the reason she was thrown in that one panel). I've said it before, neither did all that much damage. I'm not really pushing the idea that Noirtra was winning, I just think people are giving all the advantages to Nel, and I don't think that's really true.

Well I've already stated and showed why I believe that Ichigo's and Nnoitra's words meant nothing, specially given that Nel's actions were saying that she had the upper hand. Now, it's true that Nel never hit him severely enough to be life threatening for Nnoitra (then again, we do know that Nel was holding back as she was not trying to kill him);however, Nnoitra could not beat Nel's speed, nor did he manage cut Nel in any way....I mean, he couldn't even do what Nel did to him. I do believe that Nel had the advantage.



I never said she had no chance of beating him. I just don't think that Nel is going to have an overwhelming win like many people seem to think.

Well I never stated that she would have an "overwhelming win" ...but I do think that she is superior to some extent, and that she would come out on top in the end.


I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion, I don't see either of us convincing the other on this one. But fair enough, I know she didn't get to show much while released, I never really used that as a negative against her.

Fair enough, most of this does come down to opinion, so yeah...


No it's not. Immortality wasn't my point. Noirtra only suffered a single small cut on his chest as far as blood loss goes. Nothing Nel did to him while sealed could even remotely be considered fatal. She would have to chip at him all day to actually finish him off, so she went to a more powerful form to end things quickly. Just like Ichigo's attacks were not sufficient to kill Aizen, so he used his most powerful attack to end it.

The regeneration isn't what matters, but the fact that the base form was not sufficient to guarantee a win/kill.

Well... I wouldn't say that it was that small of a cut, considering that the cut seemed to be going across his chest, and quite a bit of blood came out too. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html

And what you're stating about her going to a more powerful form to beat him faster is essentially what I had been saying. Doesn't really mean that a sealed Nel wouldn't have been able to beat a sealed Nnoitra though...considering that from what we actually saw, she had the upper hand.


Easily cut through? Noirtra suffered a single small cut on his chest. In the Bleach world, that is at best a scratch.

A cut that was going across his chest, and made him lose quite a bit of blood. Granted these cuts do not seem to be life threatening to most Bleach characters;however, the fact still remains that she can easily cut through Nnoitra's hierro. Kenpachi couldn't cut through Nnoitra's hierro at first...


Again, it was ONE cut. Against the Espada Kenpachi. 1 cut> 0 cuts, but that doesn't mean that Nel is more powerful to any significant degree.

It still means that Nel had the upper hand from what we saw though. And for the record, I think that Kenpachi is stronger and more of a tank than Nnoitra.


Granted, Luppi wasn't the best choice as we've already seen him defeated. I'm actually not even sure how a fight would go with Luppi included, I'd bet on him being able to hurt Grimmjow but probably lose in the end. If it was injured Grimm and full Nel, I'd see them winning, but it would take a while. Noirtra's defense is impressive to say the least, only one of his six arms was required to block and parry Kenpachi's uneyepatched strike.

Luppi doesn't impress me at all. Perhaps a 100% healthy Luppi won't go down as fast as he did when Grimmjow killed him in the manga;however, I don't see Luppi being able to put up a fight for very long. Grimmjow just seems better overall, to say the least. Besides, if Luppi was really capable of beating Grimmjow...then he would have been the 6th Espada from the beginning instead of Grimmjow, no?

Nnoitra does have the hardest hierro apparently, thus Kenpachi's hits couldn't hurt him much due to that until Kenpachi was somehow able to adjust to it...and cut him better. Still Kenpachi was holding back, given that once he brought out his Kendo... Nnoitra was pretty much done. Nel also strikes me as a very cunning and determined fighter, thus I don't see her going down easily either. Further, Sealed Nel also showed that she was faster than sealed Nnoitra. Therefore, it's not illogical to believe that released Nel will be faster than released Nnoitra as well. Nevertheless, I still see this as Grimmjow beating Luppi in a timely manner, and then Grimmjow and Nel beating Nnoitra.

Takahashi
December 28, 2010, 10:15 PM
I'm just glad we both have a sense of humor. :toc

That's an awesome emoticon, I'm stealing it :tem



She was pushed somehow, once. Trying to argue that something more happened to her "off-panel"... is not a good idea, in my opinion... given that nothing definite can be said from most off-panel scenes. And there's the fact that what we actually did see was Nel having the upper hand.

I know it was once, I'm just saying it counts for just as much as being kicked away, at least in my mind.




We've never seen Nnoitra dodging a sword inches away from his face. Nel also showed that she was faster than Nnoitra. Not to mention that the fact that she would have landed her hit on his head or throat first...means that Nnoitra would have died pretty much instantly. I don't think that his scythe would have landed a killing blow on her the moment his head is being sliced in half or the moment his throat is being sliced off...

Well he seemed to dodge a face strike from Ken even when he was trapped lying on the ground. He's not faster than Nel, but I'm not even saying he would have dodged it. All I'm saying is that the stalemate had nothing definitive, you can SAY it would have been the end of him, but I don't really see that as good evidence of Nel being >> Noirtra (overall).




Like I said, She was pushed somehow, once. Yet you're trying to argue that something more happened to her in that off panel scene, but I don't buy it. After all, she didn't even have any injuries or anything of that sort.

Well, I've said many times that neither of them suffered significant injuries while sealed. I just think it's worth noting that she was vulnerable at times too.




Not exactly though. Nel was not being kicked, or at least that was not shown... she was simply pushed, once... somehow;however, she immediately got back up and used her superior speed to put herself in position where she could have killed Nnoitra. Also, what facial expressions from Nel are you talking about? The only surprised face that Nel showed was after seeing that Nnoitra was able to get back up after the cero doble...since she remembered him being weaker and thought that that would have been enough to beat him. I don't recall seeing any other surprised, much less shocked faces from Nel. In fact, she looked pretty confident to me throughout most of the fight.

The face was in the same page, bottom right corner.

All in all, surprised faces amount to essentially nothing in Bleach, I was simply mimicking the evidence you provided from the opposite side, because I don't think any of it was significant for either Nel nor Noirtra.


As for Nnoitra being able to kill her when they stopped... I really don't think that he would have been able to pull it off, given that Nel showed that she was faster. Besides, Nnoitra basically said that he reflexively stopped as a response to seeing Nel stopping her own weapon first. On the other hand, Nel actually stopped completely intentionally because she was not trying to kill Nnoitra.

Difference of opinion I suppose. Noirtra's weapon has always seemed ridiculously deadly to me, and I don't see Nel tanking it if she were to get hit. Maybe Kubo wouldn't let Noirtra connect, or else Nel would have lost even more clothes :amuse




Well I've already stated and showed why I believe that Ichigo's and Nnoitra's words meant nothing, specially given that Nel's actions were saying that she had the upper hand. Now, it's true that Nel never hit him severely enough to be life threatening for Nnoitra (then again, we do know that Nel was holding back as she was not trying to kill him);however, Nnoitra could not beat Nel's speed, nor did he manage cut Nel in any way....I mean, he couldn't even do what Nel did to him. I do believe that Nel had the advantage.

I've said before I agree with you that Nel had the advantage.




Well I never stated that she would have an "overwhelming win" ...but I do think that she is superior to some extent, and that she would come out on top in the end.

Hm, I must just be clusterfucking what I've heard and I'm just attributing them all to everyone on the Grimm/Nel side. shrug*




Well... I wouldn't say that it was that small of a cut, considering that the cut seemed to be going across his chest, and quite a bit of blood came out too. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-15.html

And what you're stating about her going to a more powerful form to beat him faster is essentially what I had been saying. Doesn't really mean that a sealed Nel wouldn't have been able to beat a sealed Nnoitra though...considering that from what we actually saw, she had the upper hand.

Yeah, upper hand, but that's all. Like I said, she'd probably have to chip at him all day to win with her sealed sword. So in my mind, she still required her resurrection to take a guaranteed win. Both of them are close to even, with an edge for Nel.



A cut that was going across his chest, and made him lose quite a bit of blood. Granted these cuts do not seem to be life threatening to most Bleach characters;however, the fact still remains that she can easily cut through Nnoitra's hierro. Kenpachi couldn't cut through Nnoitra's hierro at first...

Yeah, but he said he wasn't used to it in the beginning, not that he was incapable.

And yes, she CAN cut him, but despite her speed advantage, she only did it once, which means when she surprised him that was the only solid hit she really got on him. Counts for something in Noirtra's defense doesn't it?




It still means that Nel had the upper hand from what we saw though. And for the record, I think that Kenpachi is stronger and more of a tank than Nnoitra.

Well yeah, he won.




Luppi doesn't impress me at all. Perhaps a 100% healthy Luppi won't go down as fast as he did when Grimmjow killed him in the manga;however, I don't see Luppi being able to put up a fight for very long. Grimmjow just seems better overall, to say the least. Besides, if Luppi was really capable of beating Grimmjow...then he would have been the 6th Espada from the beginning instead of Grimmjow, no?

That's why I said Grimmjow would take some injuries, but still win.


Nnoitra does have the hardest hierro apparently, thus Kenpachi's hits couldn't hurt him much due to that until Kenpachi was somehow able to adjust to it...and cut him better. Still Kenpachi was holding back, given that once he brought out his Kendo... Nnoitra was pretty much done. Nel also strikes me as a very cunning and determined fighter, thus I don't see her going down easily either. Further, Sealed Nel also showed that she was faster than sealed Nnoitra. Therefore, it's not illogical to believe that released Nel will be faster than released Nnoitra as well. Nevertheless, I still see this as Grimmjow beating Luppi in a timely manner, and then Grimmjow and Nel beating Nnoitra.

You know, I hate Noirtra, but his release is just too damn awesome, I can't help but defend him. Each arm holds the power to completely stop an uneyepatched one handed strike from Kenpachi. I think his release is one of the highest jumps in power we've ever seen.

Jackk
December 29, 2010, 01:21 AM
That's an awesome emoticon, I'm stealing it :tem

I know right. It's apparently thornofcarrion's emoticon too. :blink


I know it was once, I'm just saying it counts for just as much as being kicked away, at least in my mind.

Well I respect your opinion, but I think Nel's kick was more impressive...at least to me it was.


The face was in the same page, bottom right corner.

But that was my point exactly. Her face in that particular page was not showing a surprised, much less a shocked expression. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html

As opposed to Nnoitra's shocked face when Nel sent him flying with a kick http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html ....And that's why I see Nel's kick as more impressive.


All in all, surprised faces amount to essentially nothing in Bleach

I think that shocked faces do signify that a particular character is losing to another, in some cases. I don't think that they always mean nothing, sometimes they do amount to something.


I was simply mimicking the evidence you provided from the opposite side, because I don't think any of it was significant for either Nel nor Noirtra.

Well Nel was only pushed that one time, she didn't have a shocked look on her face, then she got up immediately, and proceeded to use her superior speed to get in a position where she could have kill Nnoitra had she really wanted to actually kill him.

On the other hand, we have Nel sending Nnoitra flying with a kick, then Nnoitra lands and launches a cero at her...only to have Nel stopping it completely with one hand etc.


Difference of opinion I suppose. Noirtra's weapon has always seemed ridiculously deadly to me, and I don't see Nel tanking it if she were to get hit. Maybe Kubo wouldn't let Noirtra connect, or else Nel would have lost even more clothes :amuse

Yeah, I suppose we do have a difference of opinion. Although I'll show you why I don't think that Nnoitra's weapon is that ridiculously deadly despite the looks. Look here:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-19.html

From those links above, we can clearly see that Nnoitra had his huge scythe around a Grimmjow who was already half dead (a grimmjow that an exhausted Ichigo was able to stop with one hand) (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-17.html), and all Nnoitra's weapon managed to do was cut him and push him to the ground. He couldn't slice him off nor was Nnoitra's huge weapon able to actually kill Grimmjow, in fact, Nnoitra even says: "What the hell... you're still alive...? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-741-3/bleach/chapter-287.html) ...And I think that also implies that Nnoitra did try to kill Grimmjow with that strike, in fact, Nnoitra then tries to strike Grimmjow again so that he can kill him this time, but Ichigo intercepted and blocked his weapon. http://www.mangareader.net/94-741-4/bleach/chapter-287.html


Yeah, but he said he wasn't used to it in the beginning, not that he was incapable.

Well... the fact that Kenpachi wasn't used to it in the beginning should be precisely why he was incapable at that point, until he got used to it. That's what I meant.


And yes, she CAN cut him, but despite her speed advantage, she only did it once, which means when she surprised him that was the only solid hit she really got on him. Counts for something in Noirtra's defense doesn't it?

Well we have a difference of opinion here too because I wouldn't say that it necessarily counts in Nnoitra's defense. I mean, it's not as if we then saw Nnoitra not letting her cut him again by actually blocking her weapon or something of that sort. The fight just wasn't that long. Besides, it's not as if Nel had lost the upper hand after cutting him... considering that right after she cut him, she also sent him flying with a kick, then stopped a cero from Nnoitra, absorbed it, and then threw back at him etc. (the burning that he received from the cero was still on his body when Nnoitra faced Kenpachi, thus while it may not have been life threatening... it still caused him lasting damage. Although we did see that releasing his resurrection did heal Nnoitra's wounds.)


You know, I hate Noirtra, but his release is just too damn awesome, I can't help but defend him. Each arm holds the power to completely stop an uneyepatched one handed strike from Kenpachi. I think his release is one of the highest jumps in power we've ever seen.

I respect your opinion. Although, to be fair not only was Kenpachi's strike a casual one (one-handed strike, and no kendo etc.) when Nnoitra stopped his sword while in his released state, but also the fact that Nnoitra mentions how weak Kenpachi's sword was (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-310-page-20.html), which could be due to him having no bound with his zanpakutou since Kenpachi doesn't even know the name of his Zanpakutou, no? Even Ichigo and Zangetsu made note of this back in the SS arc.... http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-113-page-8.html

And then there is also the fact that even though Kenpachi is certainly a tank who likes to get hit and enjoy battles to the death, it's important to remember that Kenpachi does not have any level of hierro at all. Even Kenpachi noted that if he kept getting cut he was really going to wind up dead. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-312-page-16.html ....Nel does have hierro though, thus she should be able to withstand strikes from Nnoitra to some extend as well. Granted though she may not attempt to simply tank every hit as she's probably not really a tank like Kenpachi;however, I don't see her going down by a just a few hits from Nnoitra's weapon, and since she likely still has a speed advantage while they're both in their released state, I would say that Nel, at least, could certainly hold her own and manage a win in the end. (I really wish we had seen more from released Nel though, she did look pretty confident in her victory...)

Takahashi
December 29, 2010, 01:53 AM
I know right. It's apparently thornofcarrion's emoticon too. :blink

I like that guy




Well I respect your opinion, but I think Nel's kick was more impressive...at least to me it was.

Well it was dead in the face, ouch.




But that was my point exactly. Her face in that particular page was not showing a surprised, much less a shocked expression. http://www.mangareader.net/94-747-18/bleach/chapter-293.html

As opposed to Nnoitra's shocked face when Nel sent him flying with a kick http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-16.html ....And that's why I see Nel's kick as more impressive.

At the same time, Nel doesn't look all that confident at that moment, determined still, but not smirking like she usually is. That says something about how the fight was progressing at that point as far as I can tell. If anything, it means that Noirtra wasn't the pushover she thought he'd be.




I think that shocked faces do signify that a particular character is losing to another, in some cases. I don't think that they always mean nothing, sometimes they do amount to something.

Okay, but generally we don't use them in battle discussion as they're rather inconsistent in use and meaning.




Well Nel was only pushed that one time, she didn't have a shocked look on her face, then she got up immediately, and proceeded to use her superior speed to get in a position where she could have kill Nnoitra had she really wanted to actually kill him.

On the other hand, we have Nel sending Nnoitra flying with a kick, then Nnoitra lands and launches a cero at her...only to have Nel stopping it completely with one hand etc.

I'm pretty sure that's part of her ability, we've never seen anyone stop an explosive wave like a cero and just hold it there.




Yeah, I suppose we do have a difference of opinion. Although I'll show you why I don't think that Nnoitra's weapon is that ridiculously deadly despite the looks. Look here:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-19.html

From those links above, we can clearly see that Nnoitra had his huge scythe around a Grimmjow who was already half dead (a grimmjow that an exhausted Ichigo was able to stop with one hand) (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-286-page-17.html), and all Nnoitra's weapon managed to do was cut him and push him to the ground. He couldn't slice him off nor was Nnoitra's huge weapon able to actually kill Grimmjow, in fact, Nnoitra even says: "What the hell... you're still alive...? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-741-3/bleach/chapter-287.html) ...And I think that also implies that Nnoitra did try to kill Grimmjow with that strike, in fact, Nnoitra then tries to strike Grimmjow again so that he can kill him this time, but Ichigo intercepted and blocked his weapon. http://www.mangareader.net/94-741-4/bleach/chapter-287.html

I'd imagine that's due to the fact that he threw his weapon, rather than swinging it like he usually does. Regardless, Kubo wanted to make sure Grimmjow was a question mark in terms of whether he lived or not, I always saw that as more a story element. Shrug*




Well... the fact that Kenpachi wasn't used to it in the beginning should be precisely why he was incapable at that point, until he got used to it. That's what I meant.

Okay, wait, what were we talking about?




Well we have a difference of opinion here too because I wouldn't say that it necessarily counts in Nnoitra's defense. I mean, it's not as if we then saw Nnoitra not letting her cut him again by actually blocking her weapon or something of that sort. The fight just wasn't that long. Besides, it's not as if Nel had lost the upper hand after cutting him... considering that right after she cut him, she also sent him flying with a kick, then stopped a cero from Nnoitra, absorbed it, and then threw back at him etc. (the burning that he received from the cero was still on his body when Nnoitra faced Kenpachi, thus while it may not have been life threatening... it still caused him lasting damage. Although we did see that releasing his resurrection did heal Nnoitra's wounds.)

I see it as a defense for him because it wasn't like he was being repeatedly speed blitzed. After the first strike, Nel failed to cut him again. Regardless of how long the fight was, fact is that Noirtra still stopped her from cutting him again, whether it be him getting used to a fast opponent or whatever, Noirtra was able to fight more evenly as it went on.




I respect your opinion. Although, to be fair not only was Kenpachi's strike a casual one (one-handed strike, and no kendo etc.) when Nnoitra stopped his sword while in his released state, but also the fact that Nnoitra mentions how weak Kenpachi's sword was (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-310-page-20.html), which could be due to him having no bound with his zanpakutou since Kenpachi doesn't even know the name of his Zanpakutou, no? Even Ichigo and Zangetsu made note of this back in the SS arc.... http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-113-page-8.html

http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-15/bleach/chapter-309.html

You mean this strike? Looks like a VERY serious ( and happy :) ) Kenpachi to me. And he got completely owned by a single arm, I don't think you're giving him enough credit. Without Kendo, Kenpachi WAS going to lose.


And then there is also the fact that even though Kenpachi is certainly a tank who likes to get hit and enjoy battles to the death, it's important to remember that Kenpachi does not have any level of hierro at all. Even Kenpachi noted that if he kept getting cut he was really going to wind up dead. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-312-page-16.html ....Nel does have hierro though, thus she should be able to withstand strikes from Nnoitra to some extend as well. Granted though she may not attempt to simply tank every hit as she's probably not really a tank like Kenpachi;however, I don't see her going down by a just a few hits from Nnoitra's weapon, and since she likely still has a speed advantage while they're both in their released state, I would say that Nel, at least, could certainly hold her own and manage a win in the end. (I really wish we had seen more from released Nel though, she did look pretty confident in her victory...)

http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-14/bleach/chapter-309.html

Kenpachi really praised his Reiatsu, and his physical strength was intense. I don't see Hierro (keep in mind the BEST Hierro is still on Noritra) making much of a difference in this case. Nel and Grimmjow are still able to be cut and killed. Hierro might impede the blades a bit, but I don't see it as a game changer.

Jackk
December 29, 2010, 03:14 AM
I like that guy

So do I.


Well it was dead in the face, ouch.

True, but still... it was more impressive because of that then. And if we go that route, we have to note that Nnoitra couldn't get her in the face...while Nel was seemingly able to do it quite easily.


At the same time, Nel doesn't look all that confident at that moment, determined still, but not smirking like she usually is. That says something about how the fight was progressing at that point as far as I can tell. If anything, it means that Noirtra wasn't the pushover she thought he'd be.

Perhaps, but my point was that Nel was not shocked like Nnoitra was when he was kicked in the face and sent flying by said kick from Nel. Like you said, Nel still looked determined. Although I do think that she was still confident too... given that she immediately got back up and used her superior speed to put herself in a position where she could have killed him, had she really wanted to kill him. (I'm really just repeating myself at this point though...)


Okay, but generally we don't use them in battle discussion as they're rather inconsistent in use and meaning.

Well I see where you're coming from, but I have used them before lol... at least when it's evident that they were consistent and had meaning in a particular fight/scene. Just have to know when to use them ;)


I'm pretty sure that's part of her ability, we've never seen anyone stop and explosive wave like a cero and just hold it there before absorbing it.

Well I wouldn't be so sure about stopping ceros with one hand being part of her ability.


http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/bleach-ch292-07.png

Just so you know...

It can be read online in this site: http://www.readbleach.com/#

Or downloaded here: http://bleachportal.net/bleach/multimedia/direct_manga

And here's Ju-Ni's official site (they also have it only for download somewhere in their site): http://ju-ni.net/


And Cnet's translation says:

"Noitra: ...What? / "Even though I absorbed his Cero, added the force of my own Cero, and shot it straight at him... // Why is it that this guy's still alive?" / That's what your face is sayin'. // Ya got one thing right... / I'd totally forgotten that "Cero Doble" was your specialty... // Yeah, I really should've been more careful... // But still. / Looks like you've forgotten something, too. // How many years d'you think have gone by... // ...since you were last here?" http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/368

Anyway, going from that.... it seems that she has the ability to absorb a cero (as we see her doing with her mouth (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-291-page-19.html)), add her own to it, and then shoot it back at her enemy. That's what cero doble is. Nothing suggests that being able to stop a cero with her hand is part of the ability. Either way though, it really doesn't matter... it still means that she can stop Nnoitra's ceros...thus they will be useless against her.


I'd imagine that's due to the fact that he threw his weapon, rather than swinging it like he usually does.

I'd imagine that throwing the weapon would also carry some significant force, specially if Nnoitra is as strong as you claim. Not to mention that it was thrown at a half dead Grimmjow. Further, Nnoitra even asked if Grimmjow was still alive after that, and then he tries to strike Grimmjow again in order to finish him. Nnoitra was clearly attempting to kill Grimmjow.



Okay, wait, what were we talking about?

I stated that Kenpachi couldn't cut through Nnoitra hierro at first, even if it was because he hadn't gotten used to his hierro yet... Kenpachi still couldn't cut him initially, while Nel had no troubles cutting through his hierro from the start. That was what I was attempting to point out.


I see it as a defense for him because it wasn't like he was being repeatedly speed blitzed. After the first strike, Nel failed to cut him again. Regardless of how long the fight was, fact is that Noirtra still stopped her from cutting him again, whether it be him getting used to a fast opponent or whatever, Noirtra was able to fight more evenly as it went on.

She still clearly had the upper hand though; she was doing better than him, which was my point.


http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-15/bleach/chapter-309.html

You mean this strike? Looks like a VERY serious ( and happy :) ) Kenpachi to me. And he got completely owned by a single arm, I don't think you're giving him enough credit. Without Kendo, Kenpachi WAS going to lose.

I called it casual because it still wasn't serious enough that he was using both hands with Kendo etc.... I didn't say that Kenpachi was going to win without Kendo; he did state himself that he had to use it.


http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-14/bleach/chapter-309.html

Kenpachi really praised his Reiatsu, and his physical strength was intense. I don't see Hierro (keep in mind the BEST Hierro is still on Noritra) making much of a difference in this case. Nel and Grimmjow are still able to be cut and killed. Hierro might impede the blades a bit, but I don't see it as a game changer.

Well even though I hate the mess that was Yami... we do know that Yami, as the Espada #0, had the highest reiatsu among all the Espadas, yet Kenpachi wasn't impressed. Therefore, even though, yes, Kenpachi stated that Nnoitra's reiatsu was nice, let's not also forget that it was also apparently Kenpachi's first time seeing a Espada's released state (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-310-page-14.html). And the fact that Nnoitra's style of fighting was very much like Kenpachi's, it's logical that Kenpachi was naturally really enjoying himself. They both really enjoyed to get cut and fight others just for the sake of fighting. Nnoitra had abilities and a personality that really interested Kenpachi.

Yes, Nnoitra has the best hierro apparently;however, we already agreed that Nel can cut through his hierro easily if she can hit him with her weapon. My point about Nel's hierro was simply to point out that her body is technically harder than Kenpachi's (he has no hierro at all)... even if Kenpachi is a tank; Kenpachi himself noted that he couldn't afford anymore cuts, or he would really wind up dead etc.... I also noted that I don't think that Nel would still just stand there and tank hits because she's probably not a tank type;however, I don't think that she would go down if she gets hit by a few strikes from Nnoitra. Then considering that released Nel is likely faster than released Nnoitra (given that sealed Nel was faster than sealed Nnoitra), I would say that Nel definitely has a good chance of beating Nnoitra. Besides, I'll reiterate that I see this as Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra, which puts it even more so in favor of Nel's team... in my opinion.

Takahashi
December 29, 2010, 05:33 AM
True, but still... it was more impressive because of that then. And if we go that route, we have to note that Nnoitra couldn't get her in the face...while Nel was seemingly able to do it quite easily.

Well, we don't know WHERE Nel was hit that caused her to fly backwards, not that it really matters.




Perhaps, but my point was that Nel was not shocked like Nnoitra was when he was kicked in the face and sent flying by said kick from Nel. Like you said, Nel still looked determined. Although I do think that she was still confident too... given that she immediately got back up and used her superior speed to put herself in a position where she could have killed him, had she really wanted to kill him. (I'm really just repeating myself at this point though...)

Yeah, with the same phrasing too :amuse

Anyway, I was just saying that the particular page made Noirtra seem pretty good to me.




Well I see where you're coming from, but I have used them before lol... at least when it's evident that they were consistent and had meaning in a particular fight/scene. Just have to know when to use them ;)

lol You use them when they benefit your argument :tem




Well I wouldn't be so sure about stopping ceros with one hand being part of her ability.

Either way though, it really doesn't matter... it still means that she can stop Nnoitra's ceros...thus they will be useless against her.

Yeah, I know Cero(s?) don't matter regardless, but you used her stopping his Cero as a shot against him, and I don't really think it is when you consider her ability.




I'd imagine that throwing the weapon would also carry some significant force, specially if Nnoitra is as strong as you claim. Not to mention that it was thrown at a half dead Grimmjow. Further, Nnoitra even asked if Grimmjow was still alive after that, and then he tries to strike Grimmjow again in order to finish him. Nnoitra was clearly attempting to kill Grimmjow.

Like I said, I'm saying it was likely due to it being more of a story reason than anything. Freeza needed another death beam to finish off Vegeta and was surprised he didn't die from his first attack, I don't really see this situation as being all that different. Regardless, I'd still bet on Noirtra being able to pretty seriously hurt both Grim and Nel if he connects in this fight.





I stated that Kenpachi couldn't cut through Nnoitra hierro at first, even if it was because he hadn't gotten used to his hierro yet... Kenpachi still couldn't cut him initially, while Nel had no troubles cutting through his hierro from the start. That was what I was attempting to point out.

Ahh, I see. Does that really matter? All it means is that a rusty Kenpachi didn't sharpen his Reiatsu as well as a resolved Nel.


She still clearly had the upper hand though; she was doing better than him, which was my point.

Yeah, I know. But I agreed to that already, I've just been saying that upper hand doesn't mean guaranteed victory.




I called it casual because it still wasn't serious enough that he was using both hands with Kendo etc.... I didn't say that Kenpachi was going to win without Kendo; he did state himself that he had to use it.

Why did you put etc after Kendo? What else does he have at his disposal. At that point in time, as far as we knew, that was ALL he had. We know that eyepatchless Kenpachi packs a punch, and he was easily dispatched.

One thing does still confuse me though.

If one Noirtra arm can easily stop a one handed strike, how come six can't stop a two handed strike, which should only be 2 times more powerful (give or take a few small percentages).




Well even though I hate the mess that was Yami... we do know that Yami, as the Espada #0, had the highest reiatsu among all the Espadas, yet Kenpachi wasn't impressed. Therefore, even though, yes, Kenpachi stated that Nnoitra's reiatsu was nice, let's not also forget that it was also apparently Kenpachi's first time seeing a Espada's released state (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-310-page-14.html).

Good point. Although, the whole Yammy thing has just been such a....Well, it's been like the Mindfuck Aizen chapter, it just doesn't make sense :darn



And the fact that Nnoitra's style of fighting was very much like Kenpachi's, it's logical that Kenpachi was naturally really enjoying himself. They both really enjoyed to get cut and fight others just for the sake of fighting. Nnoitra had abilities and a personality that really interested Kenpachi.

Yup.


Yes, Nnoitra has the best hierro apparently;however, we already agreed that Nel can cut through his hierro easily if she can hit him with her weapon. My point about Nel's hierro was simply to point out that her body is technically harder than Kenpachi's (he has no hierro at all)... even if Kenpachi is a tank; Kenpachi himself noted that he couldn't afford anymore cuts, or he would really wind up dead etc.... I also noted that I don't think that Nel would still just stand there and tank hits because she's probably not a tank type;however, I don't think that she would go down if she gets hit by a few strikes from Nnoitra. Then considering that released Nel is likely faster than released Nnoitra (given that sealed Nel was faster than sealed Nnoitra), I would say that Nel definitely has a good chance of beating Nnoitra. Besides, I'll reiterate that I see this as Grimmjow and Nel Vs Nnoitra, which puts it even more so in favor of Nel's team... in my opinion.

Uhhuh. Keep in mind I'm not disagreeing on the whole "Nel and Grimm have the advantage" part. Just that I don't see Nel's Hierro as sufficient enough to make a difference in this scenario, as it's so minor that to factor it in would be pretty useless as a definitive aspect.