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Israfel
December 28, 2010, 11:31 AM
The question just hit me.

How did Masaki (Ichigo's mom) conceive Ichigo (and Karin + Yuzu - for that matter?)

No.. I'm not retarded as to not see the obvious answer ..

Here's the thing. Isshin supposedly never has a real human body. His current body is a Gigai, which he supposedly has been useing since he lost his shinigami powers 20 years ago (before Ichigo was born.)

So how the heck did Isshin impregnate Masaki? Does his Gigai erm.. have 'live' rounds? Even that's the case - doesn't that mean Ichigo and his sisters are actually some sort of abominable hybrids created by Urahara rather than Isshin's childern?

kalik2k
December 28, 2010, 06:09 PM
We've seen in previous episodes of Bleach Shinigami touching Humans without using a Gigai, like Ikkaku grabbing Keigo, Renji grabbing Ichigo even Nemu and Uryuu. So when you think about it Isshin being able to get intimate with Masaki really isn't all that different from being able to touch her.

You can't take away his twig n giggleberries and leave him just being aloud to touch. Even people in Soul Society make families so it shows they dont fire blanks.

kkck
December 28, 2010, 11:48 PM
Humans with reiatsu can touch and interact with shinigami and ghost pretty much in the same way they do with humans. Human souls with reiatsu (shinigami) eat, grow old, grow, show decent signs of going through a number of biological processes and as a matter of fact we have seen people born in soul society(byakuya for instance). Considering this, there really is no reason for shinigami to have problems having kids with humans since everything would indicate interactions should go pretty much normally.

xXan
December 29, 2010, 02:30 AM
We've seen in previous episodes of Bleach Shinigami touching Humans without using a Gigai, like Ikkaku grabbing Keigo, Renji grabbing Ichigo even Nemu and Uryuu. So when you think about it Isshin being able to get intimate with Masaki really isn't all that different from being able to touch her.

You can't take away his twig n giggleberries and leave him just being aloud to touch. Even people in Soul Society make families so it shows they dont fire blanks.

Yeah that is a goot way to put it but this would meant that IF ichi's mom does not have a hight spiritual power she would be making love with a invizible man :P. Or do you think that if you trow some paint on them then you can see them ? Interesting topic i must say :D

slmcknett
December 29, 2010, 01:54 PM
But Isshin would've been a spiritual being if he wasn't in a gigai, so wouldn't his sperm just be spirit particles? :|

Unless Isshin was actually turned back into a human somehow. And then he got his powers back the same way Ichigo did, thus re-attaining his spiritual body.

Or Gigai's actually do have organs and other bodily fluids just like regular human bodies do. In which case, Squad 12 now scares the hell out of me more than they already do. >_<

Although, I guess we can now see why Aizen (and Grand Fisher, even) thought Ichigo's birth was so miraculous and research-worthy. >_>

BleachOD
December 29, 2010, 02:00 PM
The question just hit me.

How did Masaki (Ichigo's mom) conceive Ichigo (and Karin + Yuzu - for that matter?)

No.. I'm not retarded as to not see the obvious answer ..

Here's the thing. Isshin supposedly never has a real human body. His current body is a Gigai, which he supposedly has been useing since he lost his shinigami powers 20 years ago (before Ichigo was born.)

So how the heck did Isshin impregnate Masaki? Does his Gigai erm.. have 'live' rounds? Even that's the case - doesn't that mean Ichigo and his sisters are actually some sort of abominable hybrids created by Urahara rather than Isshin's childern?

I am assuming he used a gigai that was sorta like the one Urahara gave Rukia. It would have turned her to a normal human if she would have stayed in it. That gigai was necessary to seal the hougyoku which had been placed inside of her.


Now this is an assumption, remember that--

I am assuming that Isshin used FGT for whatever reason. When he lost his powers and his old life, I believe Urahara gave him another one, by turning him into a human. Or at least that is what I've surmised based on the information give to me.

kkck
December 29, 2010, 02:37 PM
^Gigai's are objects, toys for shinigami's convenience. If ishin is really a soul then staying in a gigai won't make him human. More importantly, rukia wasn't being turned into a flesh and blood human but rather a human soul. Shinigami can already have children, heck all nobles are born in SS. It is important to distinguish shinigami from regular human souls or whatever we think a ghost is.

BleachOD
December 29, 2010, 03:37 PM
It is important to distinguish shinigami from regular human souls or whatever we think a ghost is.
Um...Isshin is a not a regular human soul last time I checked




If ishin is really a soul then staying in a gigai won't make him human. .


Um...I could have sworn normal humans--are people that have souls encased in flesh.

Here is Aizen explaining about the Gigai

http://b.imagehost.org/t/0918/a_human.jpg (http://b.imagehost.org/view/0918/a_human) http://d.imagehost.org/t/0316/a_human2.jpg (http://d.imagehost.org/view/0316/a_human2)
This is Urahara explaining how he's trying to make a gigai that becomes a human container for souls.
and in any case,
http://b.imagehost.org/t/0394/making_the_gigai.jpg (http://b.imagehost.org/view/0394/making_the_gigai) http://d.imagehost.org/t/0073/making_the_gigai2.jpg (http://d.imagehost.org/view/0073/making_the_gigai2)
Once you die--you can't reenter your own body. That makes you dead . If the soul is inside a flesh and blood body, and has no spirit powers and totally unable to perceive the dead (in isshin's case)--that makes you alive

It's all there in black and white....

kkck
December 29, 2010, 04:10 PM
^My point exactly, ishin is not a human soul but a shinigami. I did not say he was a human soul at all.

Even then, gigai are not made of flesh and blood of any form but spiritrons. More importantly, there is not even a chain attaching a soul to the gigai. Gigai are simply objects, not real human bodies. Heck, "gigai" quite literally means "fake body". I doubt urahara could have turned rukia into a flesh and blood human, we'd be talking about the guy resurrecting the dead (which is a power seemingly limited to orihime) through science or something of the sort. by removing her powers at most he could have permanently stuck a human soul to a fake body but that is that.

Israfel
December 30, 2010, 02:34 AM
But Isshin would've been a spiritual being if he wasn't in a gigai, so wouldn't his sperm just be spirit particles? :|


That's exactly the point I can't get over.

The fact that Shinigamis can have children is unrelevant because it's only a proof of one type of being's ability to procreate.

Whatever substance the shinigami body is made of - it's not the same as human flesh. Therefore, Shinigami's sperm shouldn't be able to fertilized human's egg,, right?

Base on this logic, the fact that Shinigami can touch human only means Isshin could make love to Masaki using his spirit body - not impregnate her.

xXan
December 30, 2010, 07:35 AM
That's exactly the point I can't get over.

The fact that Shinigamis can have children is unrelevant because it's only a proof of one type of being's ability to procreate.

Whatever substance the shinigami body is made of - it's not the same as human flesh. Therefore, Shinigami's sperm shouldn't be able to fertilized human's egg,, right?

Base on this logic, the fact that Shinigami can touch human only means Isshin could make love to Masaki using his spirit body - not impregnate her.

Oh god people think to hard on this. I can see where you are going with this but its realy no point. The answer to this its simple. ITS A MANGA.
If you whant to explain stuff you can start with how can ghosts have blood, internal organs and other even more stupid stuff then this.

There are actualy some ways that a shinigami can have a kid with a human. It can evan be some special tech that Urahara made. Like colecting sperm from Isshin, somehow making it compatible and then fertilizing her. Then again we don't even know if Isshin was not a human at first to. Hell we don't even know if you can't make a gigai that can procreate. You can even think about cloning and then puting Isshin in a clone somehow. There are posibilities ... Its just that Kubo said nothing about how it was done. We just have to w8. I have a feeling that in the near future we are going in a "Isshins backstory arc". So me thinks we will know eventualy.

slmcknett
December 30, 2010, 08:57 AM
Even though Kubo's a troll, I don't think he'd go as far as to say, "lol, it's a manga, so it makes sense."

If anything, after Isshin lost his powers (probably because of the FGT), he was turned into a human, because he lost all of his spiritual pressure, just like Ichigo. So he was able to impregnate her because he was a regular human at the time. Then, after he got his powers back, he retrieved his spiritual energy again and got a gigai from Kisuke or something.

xXan
December 30, 2010, 10:22 AM
Even though Kubo's a troll, I don't think he'd go as far as to say, "lol, it's a manga, so it makes sense."

If anything, after Isshin lost his powers (probably because of the FGT), he was turned into a human, because he lost all of his spiritual pressure, just like Ichigo. So he was able to impregnate her because he was a regular human at the time. Then, after he got his powers back, he retrieved his spiritual energy again and got a gigai from Kisuke or something.

Errrr how exacly do you create a human body by losing your shinigami powers ? This is realy new to me. Think back to rukia and what happened when she lost her powers. Urahara had to give her a gigai.
Losing his shinigami powers have nothing do to here. Perhaps you could say he turns into a spirit as weak as a human but that's it.
The problem that people found here is how can a gigai or a spirit impregnate a woman and its obvious that its imposible for a human body to be created when you lose you shinigami powers so ... the question is still there. Hell Rukia had that "emergency gigai" for when she lost her powers.

kkck
December 30, 2010, 05:57 PM
That's exactly the point I can't get over.

The fact that Shinigamis can have children is unrelevant because it's only a proof of one type of being's ability to procreate.

Whatever substance the shinigami body is made of - it's not the same as human flesh. Therefore, Shinigami's sperm shouldn't be able to fertilized human's egg,, right?

Base on this logic, the fact that Shinigami can touch human only means Isshin could make love to Masaki using his spirit body - not impregnate her.

Well, I think going into the science of how spiritron sperm interacted with regular human eggs is going unnecessarily deep into a kids manga. I think the important thing here is that ishin's swimmers could interact with masaki's eggs resulting in ichigo, karin and yuzu. It's not like we have any reason to believe ishin would have simply phased through masaki or something of the sort which would have made reproduction physically impossible lol.

LeKuaSimi
January 01, 2011, 05:49 AM
What makes you think that sperms made of spiritual particles be unable to fertilize a normal ova?

Israfel
January 01, 2011, 10:39 AM
What makes you think that sperms made of spiritual particles be unable to fertilize a normal ova?

Well.. in order to answer that question, I think I'll have to consult this textbook !!!

http://www.amazon.com/Spiritron-Sperm-Education-Century-Primer/dp/0595166679

LOL......I googled 'Spiritron Sperm' upon a whim and this book came back at the top of the list. Apparently Ichigo's conception had something to do with Downfall of American Education :D :eyeroll :blink

LeKuaSimi
January 01, 2011, 10:58 AM
As of yet, we are not told that spiritual particles act like ghosts, and can pass through normal matter. In fact, there hasn't been much of a diffrence between spiritual particles and normal matter, perharps other than healing a shinigami with spiritual particles. Even the bond-ing thingy between spiritual particles seems to me like gravity.

Nieuwsgierig
January 09, 2011, 10:16 AM
After the big fight, whatever it was, Urahara put Isshin's regular powerless soul inside the special Gigai he created, turning Isshin into a human like he was planning with Rukia. By regaining his spirit powers, he became something like Ichigo.

hiko
January 11, 2011, 05:59 AM
Has there been any reference in the manga at all to Urahara being responsible for Isshin's "human" form (ie: one of his gigais)? I think Kubo is being deliberately vague on the subject of what Isshin is exactly and all will be revealed later on - if not, then why make a big fuss over Ichigo being some form of hybrid during his fight with Aizen?

munafn
January 11, 2011, 03:55 PM
I still think Isshin might be a human who acquired shinigami powers right from the start. If was a shinigami right off the bat, I'm sure people would have heard of him from the gotei 13..Even after the SS arc everyone knew ichigo's name and knowing he is a kurosaki someone should have been able to have recognized who he is..

Yes ofcourse there is the theory that he was in the royal squad but I think to be eligible to serve in that squad you have to be a gotei 13 captain/member (assumption) and once again someone should have recognized him or atleast the similar spiritual pressure (yes i think father/son share that reiatsu)

When Isshin showed himself as a shinigami for the first time at the start of the arrancar arc, that was probably him being pushed out of his human body forcibly through use of a substitute shinigami badge or similar soul society object..

hiko
January 12, 2011, 02:28 PM
You're assuming Kurosaki is Isshin's original family name of course, he could have changed it when he decided to live a human life. It's interesting that Kubo has never really explored the concept of hereditary shinigami powers but of course the big suggestion between Isshin and Ichigo is that the Getsuga Tenshou has been passed down some way, maybe? So yeah, you'd assume the elder shinigami captains at least would have recognised Ichigo's powers.

I think Byakuya is the only powerful (as in captain class or potential captain class) who has been revealed as an nth generation powerhouse (in that his grandad was a captain too), isn't he?

munafn
January 12, 2011, 02:42 PM
You're assuming Kurosaki is Isshin's original family name of course, he could have changed it when he decided to live a human life. It's interesting that Kubo has never really explored the concept of hereditary shinigami powers but of course the big suggestion between Isshin and Ichigo is that the Getsuga Tenshou has been passed down some way, maybe? So yeah, you'd assume the elder shinigami captains at least would have recognised Ichigo's powers.

I think Byakuya is the only powerful (as in captain class or potential captain class) who has been revealed as an nth generation powerhouse (in that his grandad was a captain too), isn't he?

You have a good point. Its very likely that they may have changed the family name. And yes, Byakuya's grandfather was showin in Turn back the pendulum. Also the latest bleach spoilers reveal a pretty interesting fact that is very likely related to masaki/isshin and the "loss of their power"

BleachOD
January 16, 2011, 03:40 AM
anyone else wondering if hollows can have human hybrid children too? it makes more sense then the riatsu traces explanation given so far... but then the prospect of a hybrid with both shinigami-hollow heritage would make the whole vizord-arrancar story seem a bit pointless i suppose.
I don't think so..... I am basing this on past chapters

There are two kinds of humans. Those that have shinigami powers, age, have kids, get hungry...all the things that the living do

Normal plus..don't age or get hungry. The only power they have is when they become Hollow or Arrancar.. Arrancar don't age

Shinigami seem to represent "Life" despite being gods of death
Hollows/Normal Pluses are "death" and the dead do not reproduce

Does that make sense?


Kubo has spoken, Shinigami swimmers have no problem traveling in the human canal. Meaning Isshin's backstroke was enough to get the job done

It looks like Masaki was indeed human. If she wasn't Ichigo would just be the child of a Shinigami. Whether or not she was a fullbringer remains to be seen--although I doubt it.

kkck
January 16, 2011, 01:08 PM
I think hollows and arrancar are similar to shinigami and do age.... I think what lilinet meant when she said that was that appearance is not really much of an indication of actual age. I mean, yama looks 150 but just no one would actually guess he is thousands of years old from looking at him. Hiyori hasn't aged in the least yet byakuya did become an adult of sorts over the 100 year timeskip.

BleachOD
January 17, 2011, 06:21 AM
I think hollows and arrancar are similar to shinigami and do age.... I think what lilinet meant when she said that was that appearance is not really much of an indication of actual age. I mean, yama looks 150 but just no one would actually guess he is thousands of years old from looking at him. Hiyori hasn't aged in the least yet byakuya did become an adult of sorts over the 100 year timeskip.


Speak for yourself. Yama looks ancient to me--.:p I wish he'd keep his goddamn shirt on. I once had a guy shop a shirt on him because I refused to read the chapter he fought WW in unless he had a shirt on
seeing a young chest on that old fogy is disturbing to me:blink
Lilynett said "Arrancar Don't Age" that is why appearance isn't a indication of age for Arrancar.

Look at the Vaizards. Time has stood still for all of them them, once they became Arrancar. Everyone they knew aged (Yama doesn't count he's already withered and dried out from the neck up) but all they did was change hairstyles. Although the characters age at diffrent rates depending on the character. The Vaizards haven't changed at all...

Can I toss my theory at you?
I am assuming it's because of the hollowfication. Because normal pluses don't age either. Normal plus also have latent spirit power but it can only be awakened when they become hollow

And that's why I think "Hollows are Shinigami whose powers have gone retarded" Spirit Fingers (Props if you know what movie I just plagiarized:p) and they are also part of the balance.

Rukia said that SS and Living world constantly exchange. A Shinigami job is to maintain that balance.

I think hollows are Shinigami that for whatever personal issues they had cannot become Shinigami
But as Hollows--they begin to evolve and can eventually become Arrancar. Once they do they regain some humanity, enlightenment, and some of their Shinigami powers. They instinctively stop killing humans and instead kill other hollows with their Zanpakuto. Because Hollows consume souls and keep them from re-entering the cycle of life. So Hollows that kill other hollows are doing the same job as a Shinigami

That they have a Zanpakuto is another reason I believe this to be true.Because it's the same for them as Shinigami. It represents their true form/soul and is the source of their powers. A hollow zanpakuto houses their power, their true form, their lost heart

Shinigami release and their Zanpakuto manifests itself into a weapon. Hollows are creatures of instinct. They become animals, insects, vegetation, even shellfish--so they cannot fight as Human Shinigami would. so they release and have a form that is similar to the one they had as hollows because that's how they had to fight. For instance--Starrk's rabies. He wouldn't kill because he was lonely. Yet hollows around him still died, so he was still helping to ensure the balance by killing hollows. When he released, he didn't change at all and if he was wearing black, he'd look like any other shinigami ---
Well that's the gist of my theory
Does that make sense to you?