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Boris999
January 12, 2011, 06:44 PM
I've been thinking about this for some time. Hollows, from the very beginning of the story, have been made out as the bad guys who need to be found and destroyed by the Shinigami as they are just mindless killers who've lost their hearts; hence the hole in their body.

However, in the latest arcs we've gotten more and more evidence that it is not so. Pretty much all Arrancar show a fair bit of humanity (In good or bad ways). The likes of Nel clearly are capable of care, and not only make a family for themselves out of fellow hollow but quite literally show that they do have a heart in the way she is against killing and cares for Ichigo/her Fraccion. And it's not just her: Nnoitra, Starrk and many others show the ability to care about something other then just destruction/eating/etc.

In fact I remember, though I cannot find it now (perhaps it was just an anime thing?) an Arrancar giving a Shinigami a "You hunt us, you kill us simply for existing" speech which was the first thing that gave me this idea that hollows were a society like any other that were discriminated against due to a steryotype.

Of course, it can be argued that the Arrancar are different, as they are more then hollows, obtaining Shinigami powers BUT EVEN THEN there is evidence that hollows have some sort of 'humanity' after all. For one thing, in Grimmjow's flashback, before he is an Arrancar but just a simple hollow (albeit a high level one) it is shown how his companions (Family anyone?) offer themselves for him to eat so that he can become strong and achieve his dreams.

It just seems to me like the 'heartless hollow' is a steryotype rather then a race. Especially when you consider that their instinct to 'kill' is nothing more then a survival one. Just like we kill animals to eat. And in the 'spirit food chain' humans can very much be considered on the level of livestock. What do you all think?

kkck
January 12, 2011, 10:04 PM
^Do you remember the murderous strike orihime's brother went through when he turned into a hollow? How about the hollows that attacked karakura town when ishida used the bait? Hollows for the most part lose their intelligence soon after turning into hollows and have a hunger which leads them to kill other people. Even if they do regain their intelligence they are still compelled by their hunger and desperation to eat other hollows. Perhaps it would not be ok to go to hueco mundo and kill every hollow in sight due to the balance of souls which forced the shinigami to kill the quincy but it is definitely the right thing to do to annihilate each and every hollow that sets foot in the human world because otherwise they would feed on every tasty human they find.

Arrancar should not be compared to hollows, they are inherently different creatures. Not to mention that is was only arrancar that had a reasonable amount of intelligence before transforming that showed a degree of intelligence to begin with.

The arrancar you mention is zomari I think but you forget that he also defended the hunting of humans and accused the shinigami of meddling with that. Should shinigami not defend humans from hollows? I doubt that would be a good option.

Of course there can be a "good" hollow but that would be a rarity to say the least. Even then, it would have to go through the intelligence devoid phase where it kills humans to fill in the emptiness, then it would have to go through the whole evolving thing where it would have to merge with other several hundred hollows to form a menos grande, be lucky enough to retain his identity and then make it through the whole menos evolution thingy..... Even then, would it be likely for a hollow to remain good or maintain its sanity after the sheer amount bloodshed involved in every step of the way here?

Its not like shinigami go to hueco mundo and nuke the hell out of hollows. They merely kill the hollows that put human lives at risk.

kulash05
January 12, 2011, 11:02 PM
The way I see it is that hollow's aren't really killed by shimigami. They are cleaned of their sins and returned to being humans in soul society. The more compassionate hollows are always the one's that are much closer to human then other hollows. So while getting back to human doesn't have to be by a shimigami blade, it's easier then the process arrancar's go though, and that process doesn't even make it close enough to break away from the murdering urges they have.

Aikidoka
January 12, 2011, 11:10 PM
The way I see it is that hollow's aren't really killed by shimigami. They are cleaned of their sins and returned to being humans in soul society.
That's actually how it works (IIRC from the first arc), when Hollow's are struck in their masks by a Zanpakuto, they become Pluses and go to Soul Society. What I don't get is how that process works for Arrancar. From Menos stage they essentially become composite souls, made up of the identities of all other Hollows that were eaten by the main, dominant identity. What happens when an Arrancar is "killed", then? Do all of those souls become Pluses? What about those souls that should go to Hell? Do some of them go to Hell, while others become Pluses? The Movie seems to suggest that Arrancar go to Hell, but not only is it not canon, but it also suggests that all an Arrancar's souls deserved to go to Hell, which is unlikely. And what about when a Hollow kills, not eats, another Hollow? Does the eaten Hollow just cease to exist? That would tip the balance of the scales as well wouldn't it?

Roflkopt3r
January 12, 2011, 11:17 PM
While the process of killing ordinary hollows obviously is rather a service to the soul of that hollow and even the total extermination by a quincy isn't that bad of a faith compared to the existence as a hollow, it's questionable about the Arrancar.

I would say that it is up to the arrancar. If they turn against someone, like most slain arrancar who openly turned against soul society, it's obviously ok. They put up a fight, so soul society has to defend itself.
If an arrancar choses not to harm anyone, there is no reason to kill it.

I don't know if Kubo ever had an idea what would happen to the souls of an arrancar when it died, or even what happened to the consumed ones. I think all of this became rather inconsistent after the soul society arc, after all it wasn't included in the original design of Bleach.

Richo
January 13, 2011, 01:09 AM
I would say that it is up to the arrancar. If they turn against someone, like most slain arrancar who openly turned against soul society, it's obviously ok. They put up a fight, so soul society has to defend itself.
If an arrancar choses not to harm anyone, there is no reason to kill it.

Look at Nel, she did never bother anyone if she could. It depends on the person who dominates the arrancar.

I don't know if Kubo ever had an idea what would happen to the souls of an arrancar when it died, or even what happened to the consumed ones. I think all of this became rather inconsistent after the soul society arc, after all it wasn't included in the original design of Bleach.
I believe that hollows once they become Menos the souls that are not dominant are "destroyed" when a arrancar or menos dies 1 soul gets cleansed and goes to SS.
I realise the following is not cannot but fits:
During 1st bleach movie there were blanks who are in essence souls who have yet to be born in the human world to keep the balance between the dimensions. If the opposite is true as some have suggested here and all the arrancars who died split up all the souls they devoured over the years SS will have a flood of new souls.
Do the math and we will come to several ten thousands of souls for all the arrancar if not hundred thousands of souls. A simple gillian when created consists of already 100 hollows and to keep it easy lets assume they consist of 1 soul, for a gillian to evolve they need to devour atleast equal amount of gillians to become a adjuchas which is already 100 * 100 = 100.000 souls. This would only create a weak adjuchas where as most espada are wintered adjuchas who devoured likely hundreds of other adjuchas or gillians so that could even mean tens of millions new souls come into SS and the balance is greatly disturbed.

Nieuwsgierig
January 13, 2011, 07:58 AM
Of course, certain Hollow have their humanity left, but they remain hunters intent on killing. Hueco Mondo is a dog eat dog world. They aren't hurt either by killing them, they are given a peaceful transition to their next life. Even if Soul Society is a sucky place to live, Hueco Mondo is worse if you're constantly being hunted.

steelwingcrash1
January 23, 2011, 08:01 AM
Isn't killing a hollow the process of saving its soul and transferring it to Soul Society? However, we all know that Soul Society is not the peaceful heaven as we all know.

So for me, if it means keeping the dangerous activity of the hollows in control, then it's fine to kill them.

BleachOD
January 23, 2011, 10:07 AM
Hollows aren't evil it's wrong to kill them because you destroy the balance
On the flip side of this, I think a few being erased by Quincy is also included in that balance.
Only evil beings are evil and they go to hell
.


I don't know if Kubo ever had an idea what would happen to the souls of an arrancar when it died, or even what happened to the consumed ones. I think all of this became rather inconsistent after the soul society arc, after all it wasn't included in the original design of Bleach.

Kubo said that the "mixing of souls" isn't correct. They eat each other...and the one that is the strongest gains conciousness

Like you eat your food and it becomes a part of you.

This is explained in the GJ Flashback...

GJ consumed his fraccion..he ate a part of them and although their evolution stopped. He didn't walk around with their souls inside of him

Let's say for argument sake an Arrancar does have a bunch of souls stored inside him. I see no reason why those souls don't get cleansed as well and also re-enter the cycle of life, death, and rebirth.

There is nothing that says that they do not. Death by Zanpakuto is cleansing of the souls, and has already been stated. So if they kill an Arrancar with many souls they should all be cleansed as well

Not an oversight on Kubo's part at all if you ask me.

ZERO PHOENIX
January 24, 2011, 12:00 PM
For the Xth time, Hollows are purified by zanpaktou, not killed by them. After being purified the Hollows are sent to SS unless of course they were evil in life. In that case they go to hell. Rukia explained quite clearly why hollows have to be purified. Let us not open a thread and waste weeks of discussions for something any of you can look up in the early chapters.

I get tired of explaining things to people: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow

BleachOD
January 25, 2011, 07:53 PM
For the Xth time, Hollows are purified by zanpaktou, not killed by them. After being purified the Hollows are sent to SS unless of course they were evil in life. In that case they go to hell. Rukia explained quite clearly why hollows have to be purified. Let us not open a thread and waste weeks of discussions for something any of you can look up in the early chapters.

I get tired of explaining things to people: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Hollow Er...Quincy actually kill hollows. That's the reason they were wiped out. Ishida kills hollows all the time.

Shinigami don't actually kill hollows but it's evident by Zomari's speech to Byakuya that Hollows don't see it that way

LanderZ
January 26, 2011, 03:10 AM
Don't forget, little Hollows can survive on Reiryoku particles found in Soul Society or Hueco Mundo (the little lizards of HM, for one). These guys are not dangerous by themselves, and need not eat to survive, so killing them might be simple cruelty. However, Hollows that attack innocent people (dead or otherwise) need to be kept in check, too.

BleachOD
January 26, 2011, 04:01 AM
Don't forget, little Hollows can survive on Reiryoku particles found in Soul Society or Hueco Mundo (the little lizards of HM, for one). These guys are not dangerous by themselves, and need not eat to survive, so killing them might be simple cruelty. However, Hollows that attack innocent people (dead or otherwise) need to be kept in check, too. yeah they can survive on that

They don't eat people for food. They long for their humanity, so they consume human souls in an attempt to get back what they loss

When they evolve to Menos they no longer crave human souls, instead they crave the souls of Menos of the same class.and this makes them evolve after they consumed a certain number of hollows. When they evolve to adjuchas and Vastolord--they actually have to eat other hollows of the same class, that have the same strength, or they regress back to Gillian and then their evolution becomes halted because of the regression. After they become Menos...they don't crave humans only each other

So killing them isn't cruel because they aren't being killed, merely purified of the sins they committed as hollow and then they can pass on to SS and re-enter the cycle of life-death-and rebirth

Ishida kills hollows because he totally wipes the souls out when he kills them. So it's wrong in his case because he's not purifying them and it too can destroy the balance of souls the two world shares...

other than that it's all about ethics, when it comes to "is it wrong to killing hollows"

AlB
January 26, 2011, 04:16 AM
purifying hollows (cutting them with Zan) is ok. but destroying them utterly (like quincy arrow or kido) is just criminal. Shinigami were absolutely right to exterminate Quincys. Imagine hundreds of guys like Uryuu using living souls as a practice dummies :s :

if there's one thing I like about SS it's the fact that they promote purifying hollows rather than annihilating them

AlB
January 26, 2011, 03:19 PM
Please pay attention to the topic sentence :eyeroll

" Is it okay to kill Hollows?"

No one specified if it was Shinigami or not. They did NOT say " Is it okay for Shinigami to kill Hollows? "

That means that I can mention Quincy :s

It's fine to make a argument but please try to remember that the topic sentence is what the thread is supposed to be about

It's fine to be a fan but please compose yourself in the forums and get off your high horse (it feels good to say that to someone else for a change) and take note of what the main idea in the thread is before you make a counter argument . kthxbye


P.S...despite it being "purification" and for good..Hollows don't have the same opinion. I.E Zomari's last stand

I think Zommari's words bore metaphorical meaning. I think that under "killing" he meant extinguishing their existence as powerful creatures who had special abilities. Sure, Zommari's essence and soul will continue to exist, but no longer as a powerful member of an elite class of his society.

Boris999
January 27, 2011, 12:25 AM
I think Zommari's words bore metaphorical meaning. I think that under "killing" he meant extinguishing their existence as powerful creatures who had special abilities. Sure, Zommari's essence and soul will continue to exist, but no longer as a powerful member of an elite class of his society.

That is actually what I was thinking. When one defeats a powerful hollow, be it by purification or not, it seems to me like you are likely 'killing' that being that has been created. After all hollows aren't completely like the souls they used to be in life, they seem to become completely new creatures with new desires, new powers, perhaps even new thoughts on how to live their life. So even if they go back to what their original soul was like before, it is arguable that the person they were as hollows is destroyed.

As for them commiting a crime, I once again liken it to us eating animals in the real world in order to grow. One also has to remember that those like Nel, who abhores killing, must have killed her fair share in order to reach that power level. Does that mean she deserves to be killed/purified?

AlB
January 27, 2011, 12:57 AM
That is actually what I was thinking. When one defeats a powerful hollow, be it by purification or not, it seems to me like you are likely 'killing' that being that has been created. After all hollows aren't completely like the souls they used to be in life, they seem to become completely new creatures with new desires, new powers, perhaps even new thoughts on how to live their life. So even if they go back to what their original soul was like before, it is arguable that the person they were as hollows is destroyed.

nah, Arrancar's personalities are those of a dominating soul. I simply meant that by purifying soul their position of power is taken from them.

that being said every soul arrancar consists of has no free will and is subject to dominating personality. it isn't fair now is it? therefore, purification is an absolute must. that's basically why I'm not too hard on Aizen for purifying Hallibel. She will live on as an independent being with her personality, but so will all other poor sods confined within the arrancar.

xXan
January 28, 2011, 06:11 AM
The Quincy got exterminated because of it ... Do i need to say more? You can go back and read that chapter and find out for yourself.

kkck
January 28, 2011, 12:52 PM
The way I see it, if a hollow for whatever reason is trying to kill a human then it is perfectly reasonable to kill it even if not with a zampakuto which would technically purify it. It would obviously be wrong to go to HM and start killing hollows for no reason but that hardly has ever been done at all.

ZERO PHOENIX
January 28, 2011, 01:16 PM
The way I see it, if a hollow for whatever reason is trying to kill a human then it is perfectly reasonable to kill it even if not with a zampakuto which would technically purify it. It would obviously be wrong to go to HM and start killing hollows for no reason but that hardly has ever been done at all.

How is that reasonable? It's already been established that killing hollows will eventually result in unbalancing the physical and spiritual worlds. The threat was so palpable that SS wiped the Quincy out.

kkck
January 28, 2011, 07:09 PM
How is that reasonable? It's already been established that killing hollows will eventually result in unbalancing the physical and spiritual worlds. The threat was so palpable that SS wiped the Quincy out.

That would be the case if an unreasonable amount of hollows were killed that way. The quincy were numerous and killed who knows how many hollows. Killing one hollow won't have a great effect on the balance....

xXan
January 31, 2011, 04:14 AM
That would be the case if an unreasonable amount of hollows were killed that way. The quincy were numerous and killed who knows how many hollows. Killing one hollow won't have a great effect on the balance....

I don't think the OP was about killing 1 hollow. But more about the concept of killing hollows.
if you don't mind me using an analogy its like killing 1 bee. What would happen? Nothing of course. Kill all bees or most of them? Now there is the problem. Hell even spiders are necessary to the balance of things.
Now is it to OK to kill hollows(even 1) when there are alternatives? Of course not, those hallows could have been good people in life (like Inoue's brother).

Jorge D. Dragon
February 05, 2011, 12:59 PM
I think that Hollows should be purified with Zanpaktou and not killed like Quinsy did, cause it shows that everyone has a second chanse and you has a chanse to reborn in the Soul Society and start new life.:)
Also as we know if someone kills plenty of Hollows the balance will be broken and it will lead to cataclism.:)

bamf
February 05, 2011, 08:00 PM
^Perhaps it would not be ok to go to hueco mundo and kill every hollow in sight due to the balance of souls which forced the shinigami to kill the quincy but it is definitely the right thing to do to annihilate each and every hollow that sets foot in the human world because otherwise they would feed on every tasty human they find.


The Shinigami took out the Quincy because their powers destroy hollows completely. When a Shinigami kills a hollow, their soul goes to Soul Society unless they were murderers, in which case they go to Hell.

The disproportionate balance of souls comes from something like a law of reiatsu, if you will. Shinigami powers don't destroy or create reiatsu (souls of hollows). Quincy powers do, that's why they got taken out. Just thought I should make that clear.

With that in mind, yes, I think it's perfectly fine to kill hollows that are not arrancar on the basis that they are just animals. Their souls with their human intelligence can live in soul society after they've been killed. With Arrancar, I would consider it on a case by case basis. Hallibel, Stark, and Nel, and Grimmjow don't deserve to die in my opinion. Grimmjow is no different than Kenpachi, maybe better considering he's more rival oriented than RARARARARA oriented.

steelwingcrash1
February 06, 2011, 05:40 AM
Demons are demons. Deathgods should just slay them with Zanpakutou. After all, they'll get purified after it. They'll eventually go to Soul Society where they can live again as new souls like the parrot-kid. But it's quite sad that he never found his momma in there...

BleachOD
February 07, 2011, 09:42 AM
With that in mind, yes, I think it's perfectly fine to kill hollows that are not arrancar on the basis that they are just animals. Their souls with their human intelligence can live in soul society after they've been killed. With Arrancar, I would consider it on a case by case basis. Hallibel, Stark, and Nel, and Grimmjow don't deserve to die in my opinion. Grimmjow is no different than Kenpachi, maybe better considering he's more rival oriented than RARARARARA oriented. GJ and Zaraki are nothing alike. GJ is a killer and Zaraki just loves a good fight. If he almost dies--the better but he's not a killer. Orihime replaced his arm and the first chance he gets he launches six rockets at her. If Ichigo had not jumped in front of them, he would killed her. Zaraki would do no such thing

If the Arrancar isn't a murder like Noitora or GJ...then no they shouldn't be purified but if they are killing humans. Then yes they have to go....

landundersea
February 08, 2011, 03:06 AM
technically, they are not killed but purified and go to ss to live in rukongai (and rukongai mostly sucks a lot more than hueco mundo imo).

i don't think this is a matter of it being ok or not. as aizen's little experiments have showed hollows can evolve to more sophisticated forms and besides this is also a proccess that can occur naturally (though a lot more slowly) and the arrancar (even the most violent and impulsive ones) were not that different from shinigami. so, why not use that technology and go change things in hueco mundo? this would more or less end the war between the two sides, i am not saying that hollows and shinigami could be friends. but possibly the shinigami would not act that arrogantly (hahaha!! we kill you because we have to because we are the gooooood guys)

with this hogyoku they could create fairly sophisticated beings that could possibly live under more civilised rule. i know yammy went ahead and did so and so and in that other time sth else happened and szayel aporro was such a monster, but still the espada were made for war. we have absolutely no way of saying or proving that less violent arrancar ruling over hueco mundo could not keep the place under order.

so, why killing them if you could help them evolve?

luffyg2
February 12, 2011, 03:51 AM
Well they need to be dealt with by shinigami this way their soul can be free and they can move on to either soul society or hell

Nonlife
February 21, 2011, 06:39 PM
Well they need to be dealt with by shinigami this way their soul can be free and they can move on to either soul society or hell

Otherwise, there'd be less balance. (Not slaying hollows is the same as when the Quincy slayed them.)

landundersea
February 22, 2011, 05:09 AM
Otherwise, there'd be less balance. (Not slaying hollows is the same as when the Quincy slayed them.)

actually if hollows evolve and stay in their dimension why would the balance be threatened? it's just 'easier' to kill them than help them, no higher purposes behind that

any time the actions of the beings of any dimension (quincy, or in the 4th movie the togabito, or even hollows appearing in the real world) become offensive against the inhabitants of another dimension then the balance is threatened. and that is because the total amount of 'energy' in the attacked dimension diminishes whereas it increases for the others. but when everyone stays put there is no threat posed.

whether hollows need to be purified or evolve to higher forms and continue existing in hueco mundo should probably be sth left for them to decide. rukongai is a mess, if sb told me that i would have to live there after my death i would pick hueco mundo hands down. at least in hm one can be relatively free, whereas in ss the only way out is not just to have shinigami potential but at least reach vice-captain level or else you are a nobody and spent your days cleaning the streets of seireitei...

from that perspective yeah, killing hollows sucks

Nieuwsgierig
February 22, 2011, 09:14 AM
actually if hollows evolve and stay in their dimension why would the balance be threatened? it's just 'easier' to kill them than help them, no higher purposes behind that

They wouldn't be reborn as humans ;) If shinigami didn't kill hollows, Hueco Mondo would grow and the human world would go extinct.

landundersea
February 22, 2011, 10:37 AM
They wouldn't be reborn as humans ;) If shinigami didn't kill hollows, Hueco Mondo would grow and the human world would go extinct.

i seriously don't remember that being said, no offense here; if a hollow dies in hueco mundo then their spirit/energy or whatever else should naturally follow the flow of things. shinigami are necessary for hollows attacking either the real world or even soul society.

Nieuwsgierig
February 24, 2011, 04:25 AM
i seriously don't remember that being said, no offense here; if a hollow dies in hueco mundo then their spirit/energy or whatever else should naturally follow the flow of things. shinigami are necessary for hollows attacking either the real world or even soul society.
Hollows killed by hollows are absorbed by those hollows. We already knew that from the start when Bleach introduced Menos. Each Menos = thousands of souls. Hollows hunt and kill hollows to become Menos, so the soul doesn't get released.

landundersea
February 24, 2011, 06:23 AM
Hollows killed by hollows are absorbed by those hollows. We already knew that from the start when Bleach introduced Menos. Each Menos = thousands of souls. Hollows hunt and kill hollows to become Menos, so the soul doesn't get released.

a few hollows are capable of doing that, becoming menos that is, and then for a few of them a whole new evolutionary phase might begin. i do not remember any part where it specifically said that all hollows killed by other hollows will form a menos or that these souls cannot be reborn as humans...

furthermore, the menos do not disturb any balance of the world or the adjuchas or the vasto lorde. they consume hollows which means that their power equals that of all the hollows they have absorbed. so, if we assume that all of hueco mundo could exist either as it is now or evolve to adjuchas and vl, then the total amount of energy present would still be the same. it seems like a pretty straightforward equation to me, like 2+x=7, both parts express an equal value in different forms.

unless, what you mean is that all of hueco mundo should be purified in which case i could see some slight disturbance in the 'force' :p

Nieuwsgierig
February 24, 2011, 07:53 AM
a few hollows are capable of doing that, becoming menos that is, and then for a few of them a whole new evolutionary phase might begin. i do not remember any part where it specifically said that all hollows killed by other hollows will form a menos or that these souls cannot be reborn as humans...
Any hollow eating another hollow consumes its soul, until it has eaten enough souls to form a Menos. A Hollow can't just kill a hollow, like a man can kill a man. Once a hollow is formed, its soul is NEVER released unless he is killed by a shinigami.


furthermore, the menos do not disturb any balance of the world or the adjuchas or the vasto lorde. they consume hollows which means that their power equals that of all the hollows they have absorbed.
Indeed, it doesn't matter if their are One Million Hollow or one 'VL'. The balance is the same. However, each year that passes more hollow get born. Let's say they all retreat and stay in Hueco like in your original post I reacted to. This would mean Hueco would get more and more souls that aren't reborn. It is like with the Quincy. Let's assume all the hollow that a quincy would kill, would just stay in Hueco and never get killed by anyone. This would mean the souls couldn't be reborn, both SS and the human world would go extinct.


unless, what you mean is that all of hueco mundo should be purified in which case i could see some slight disturbance in the 'force' :p
Actually, what would be wrong with that? It is actually the reason Soul Society exists. To exterminate all hollows. They just can't go into Hueco because of the VL, who are capable of killing captains. The balance is not between Hollows and Soul Society, it is between human world and soul society/Hueco.

landundersea
February 24, 2011, 01:10 PM
Any hollow eating another hollow consumes its soul, until it has eaten enough souls to form a Menos. A Hollow can't just kill a hollow, like a man can kill a man. Once a hollow is formed, its soul is NEVER released unless he is killed by a shinigami.


actually not, if you could find the chapter or at least roughly tell me when this was said i will be more than happy to apologise to you, but in the major three cases where hollows were analysed (in the beginning by rukia, then by hitsugaya when he was in the real/ manifested world and then again by grimmjow) they said some hollows develop a 'hunger' that forces them to cannibalize on other hollows; meaning that only a few of them will actually attack and kill in order to feed on other hollows.

furthermore, once they get past the point of living as a conglomeration of hollows and develop a personality it is necessary to keep up eating weaker hollows in order to preserve their power. but they can reach a point when their power is pretty much stabilised irrespectively. for example, starrk and lilynette would kill other hollows simply with their presence. these hollows would just die, it was mentioned pretty much clearly in all translations i have seen. they didn't absorb them, the hollows would just lose their souls and vanish.

the most notable exceptions in the above case would be aaroniero who was a gillian-class and yammy whose power was more or less based on absorbing reiyoku and then releasing it via anger.


Indeed, it doesn't matter if their are One Million Hollow or one 'VL'. The balance is the same. However, each year that passes more hollow get born. Let's say they all retreat and stay in Hueco like in your original post I reacted to. This would mean Hueco would get more and more souls that aren't reborn. It is like with the Quincy. Let's assume all the hollow that a quincy would kill, would just stay in Hueco and never get killed by anyone. This would mean the souls couldn't be reborn, both SS and the human world would go extinct.


as i have said above this argument cannot stand since it seems that hollows can just die. but even so, let's assume a rate between deaths and births, those being what keeps the world in balance, so an average regarding could be calculated as such:
if d=death, p=pluses, h=hollows and t=time; the derivative of p in respect to h makes it a function of h, f(h), meaning that it is the change in hollows we are after.
now, assuming the simplest and typical of cases... a linear function, the slope m is defined as the change in p divided by the change in h (Δp/Δh). therefore, p=f(h)=mh+b (where b is a real number).
if it is not linear, then through differentiation we would have to calculate an exact value for that rate at any given value of h. to put it simply and make the long story short coz i am tired now, with the info at hand from kubo, it is not the number of hollows but the rate at which their numbers fluctuate over time in respect to pluses. and both values are bound by a separate and independent value: b (births). bottom line, one could send off a bunch of hollows or rukongai citizens or shinigami in case births decreased and the results would be the same.




Actually, what would be wrong with that? It is actually the reason Soul Society exists. To exterminate all hollows. They just can't go into Hueco because of the VL, who are capable of killing captains. The balance is not between Hollows and Soul Society, it is between human world and soul society/Hueco.

and finally, we arrive at the most important point... sb here is on soul society's side :eyeroll that's great by me, but the legitimacy of their actions is not self-explanatory. if hollows disagree with being killed/purified there is no reason to do otherwise. i have pretty much said in another post the same as you, the balance is between manifested world and ss/hm, but not every course of action is justified on that principle.

this is a rather old argument that was unfortunately forgotten after the ss arc: what legitimizes the actions taken by the gotei? i won't get into any more detail and have my post deleted for no apparent reason, but i will say it's good that this topic resurfaces

kkck
February 24, 2011, 02:21 PM
Some people here make it sound as if the gotei 13 randomly walks into hueco mundo and start killing hollows at their discretion. I never got the impression they did such a thing at any point.... Even if they did most hollows are mindless stupid creatures who feast on each other. The grimmjow flashback made it clear that only extremely few and exceptional hollows actually maintain their consciousness when transforming into menos. The way I see it, should a hollow go to the human world to eat a human regardless of whether it has a consciousness or not it should be killed on sight regardless of purification. The alternative would be to allow humans to be eaten.

That said, SS is not precisely where people go to spend eternity. Every soul there eventually dies and is reborn after a determined amount of time (first bleach databook). In that sense, even if a hollow is not purified it will still be reborn. It is shame to deprive them of their due time in SS but I would think it is better than simply letting a human die. I don't think there is anything wrong with hollows being stopped from eating humans even if not with a zampakuto.

landundersea
February 25, 2011, 12:16 AM
i can't be sure but assume from what was said that the last reply was mostly directed to me and since this matter is getting rather tiresome (and borderline rude), i will say that of those 'some people who claim that shinigami are killing hollows at their discretion' kubo should be also included because that's how he has described it so far. storming into hueco mundo is sth that i personally never wrote and i am not sure exactly what it means in that sentence, therefore i 'll take it as some attempt to sarcasm.

in the manga there are different opinions expressed, one way or another, by various characters regarding the disposal of hollows from the standard quincy approach to unohana's, who wouldn't draw her sword unless her opponent attacked her and then went ahead healing a human and a hollow. this, most likely because kubo prefers to leave the topic open to discussion and that being said discussion pretty much insinuates: one makes their point, then a person reads it and responds by building their own. twisting people's words (personally, i never said that ss is where people spend eternity as it was so kindly mentioned) or delegitimizing their argument on false grounds is currently not known as 'discussion'. finally, i can see the point about the nature of most hollows and issues regarding attacks on humans (that i have already addressed myself and it is pretty much clear what i said).

my personal opinion has been expressed, all these 'reactions' to my posts are fairly unnecessary considering that within the original material more than one views on this topic have been presented.

Nieuwsgierig
February 25, 2011, 02:28 AM
actually not, if you could find the chapter or at least roughly tell me when this was said i will be more than happy to apologise to you, but in the major three cases where hollows were analysed (in the beginning by rukia, then by hitsugaya when he was in the real/ manifested world and then again by grimmjow) they said some hollows develop a 'hunger' that forces them to cannibalize on other hollows; meaning that only a few of them will actually attack and kill in order to feed on other hollows.

Indeed, those hollows that can no longer feed on humans will turn onto other hollows. Your original proposal was however that if hollows don't attack earth/SS, they shouldn't be killed. My answer is: those hollows need to eat hollows because they can't sustain themselves. All hollows need to eat. If you take away their food supply, they will turn to cannibalism. This wasn't said in the manga in those words because all small hollows go to the human world to eat humans and souls. Compare it to humans, we also don't eat other humans unless forced into a situation where it is needed.



furthermore, once they get past the point of living as a conglomeration of hollows and develop a personality it is necessary to keep up eating weaker hollows in order to preserve their power. but they can reach a point when their power is pretty much stabilised irrespectively. for example, starrk and lilynette would kill other hollows simply with their presence. these hollows would just die, it was mentioned pretty much clearly in all translations i have seen. they didn't absorb them, the hollows would just lose their souls and vanish.They weren't necessary Hollow at that point; they could have been Arrancar. Not all Espada were made by the Orb and their looks didn't change a lot after joining Aizen. Also note, the hollows they killed remained in piles. Their body didn't get purified. So, the soul stays in the hollow until a shinigami purifies it or a hollow eats it.


bottom line, one could send off a bunch of hollows or rukongai citizens or shinigami in case births decreased and the results would be the same.So your answer to avoid mass killing hollows is to mass kill hollows every couple of thousands of year. At which point they would be strong only captains could stand up to them, and Soul Society itself would be weak because of a low amount of souls. The smaller the amount of hollows, the easier it is to keep the balance.


and finally, we arrive at the most important point... sb here is on soul society's side :eyeroll that's great by me, but the legitimacy of their actions is not self-explanatory. if hollows disagree with being killed/purified there is no reason to do otherwise. i have pretty much said in another post the same as you, the balance is between manifested world and ss/hm, but not every course of action is justified on that principle.
To ease the suffering of those hollow? Those souls became hollows because they were attacked by one, or because their suffering after death was so big they turned into one. You become a hollow through suffering. If Soul Society itself is evil, isn't important in this matter.

Eprst
February 25, 2011, 09:17 AM
I think hollows and shinigamis are balanced, if we look to Ichigo his powers split in color to black and white, hollow powers and shinigami powers.

I hope sooner they will open more from the history of the creation of the Soul Society and Hueco Mundo. And i think it will be similar to paradise and hell. I beleive that hollows and shinigamis before were the same, but then most of them became fallen and they started turning into hollows

Nonlife
February 25, 2011, 10:07 AM
On the level, when a Hollow is "purified" by a Shinigami, I don't think there's a chance it'll become one again.