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igotthegoods
January 19, 2011, 01:04 AM
Love vs. Wonderweiss

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/13856

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Love

Aikawa Love is a Visored and former Captain of the 7th Division. Love is a laid-back and easy-going man, usually reading Shōnen Jump or some of Lisa's erotic manga in his spare time, more often than not, spoiling a piece of the story by quoting lines and explaining what the character meant by it in a dramatic, tough-guy demeanor, almost as if he was an actor rehearsing movie lines.

Love's zanpakutō is named Tengumaru. His shikai transforms it into a large kanabō reminiscent of a black cactus, twice the size of Love. Tengumaru has the ability to project fire from its tip.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Wonderweiss

While not an Espada, Wonderweiss is ranked in the same class of spiritual energy as the group. The child-like, virtually autistic arrancar has had almost all of his mental faculties removed by Aizen Sōsuke all for the purpose of enhancing his power and strength. In addition to having highly developed hollow abilities, he can emit a powerful battle cry that can be used for offense, defense, and even to control the entity known as Fūrā.Typically fighting unarmed, he also can release a zanpakutō, Extinguir, and resurrección, which allows him to seal the fiery power of Gotei 13 Commander Yamamoto's Ryūjin Jakka, allows for high-speed regeneration and the production of multiple extensible arms, and enhances his strength and hierro.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Random101
January 31, 2011, 11:37 PM
Gunna straight up say Wonderwiess. Regeneration from absolutely wretched internal damage, fire negation (Not that it matters much given it's like one attack) and Loves blunt trauma weapon not doing a lot to Starrk when Wonderwiess himself would outright require getting pretty much vaporized to end it doesn't really give Love a lot of options. Meanwhile Wonderwise can get him with tentacle arms so he can't move, then goddamn gattling him to death with a barrage that dents even Yamamoto.

Yeah... Granted Wonderwiess is stupid, but Loves Main problem is not having a good enough way to damage the kid enough.

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 12:08 AM
Gonna go with WW.

I know Samurai's gonna hate me for saying it, but WW beat Bankai (and probably masked) Kensei, and his HSR made him still at 100% for when he went against Yama.

The fact that he was beaten by an unarmed old man isn't much of a negative against him, his HSR is absolutely amazing, and like Random said, that Gatling punch attack looks brutal.

He had the speed to block a punch from Yamamoto when it was a VERY short distance away from Aizen. The fact that he could even get in there to interrupt it means he's damn fast.

As far as I can tell, Love is the strongest Vaizard second to maybe Shinji. I'm still impressed that his Shikai collided with Tenken and didn't instantly explode, in fact, it didn't even budge....

I don't know what to think of the fire attack he pulled, it's power is indeterminable. However, he apologized to his sword just like Renji has, and we all know that sacrificial techs are strong as hell. (Also, Random, I think WW's extinguishing ability only applies to Ryujin Jakka)

Still, WW will recover from essentially anything, and I see him winning every time particularly because Love CAN'T use Bankai here. The most powerful he could ever be is when he did that fire attack, and I don't think that'll cut it.

Random101
February 01, 2011, 12:59 AM
Also, Random, I think WW's extinguishing ability only applies to Ryujin Jakka
Wonderwiess negates so much crap that honestly I'm not even sure it's even limited to flames as his ressurection name suggests. To be perfectly honest just limiting it to fire seems to soft on it.

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 01:03 AM
Wonderwiess negates so much crap that honestly I'm not even sure it's even limited to flames as his ressurection name suggests. To be perfectly honest just limiting it to fire seems to soft on it.

Well, it was pretty specifically said that he seals Ryujin Jakka. Since all Zan's have their own Reiatsu and such, I'd imagine it only applies to Yama's fire.

At any rate, I think we can give Love the benefit of the doubt here :amuse

Random101
February 01, 2011, 01:04 AM
Oh fine. Not like I'd thought it'd vaporize him regardless so it doesn't really change anything. >>

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 01:07 AM
Yeah I know, but we might as well leave some thing up for debate lol Taking away his fire attack just leaves him with bashing things....

kkck
February 01, 2011, 02:23 AM
Well, if bankai was to be considered then I'd see love having a chance but without that I have my doubts. His shikai with mask would pack a punch but I doubt it would outright obliterate wonderweiss. Now, in defense of love I could see his shikai actually working well against the many hands wonderweiss has. It would basically burn and hit the lot of them at once. It's basically a convenient ability for that purpose. Of course they would regenerate but that does not mean that alone would be enough to get the upperhand. I guess it would come down to love's bankai. Based on what we have seen, love's shikai is a power oriented weapon with fire. A power oriented bankai could actually pull it off IMO (it would also be a different scenario from kensei who would seem to have a wind based rather than raw power bankai). I think there are too many variables though. We don't know loves bankai, we know wonderweiss got pawned by yama but we don't know exactly where he would stand in comparison to other captains or espada. It is a fact love has bankai but since it has not appeared yet I guess we can't count it so I give this to wonderweiss.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 02:23 AM
First we can only prove that WW can seal Yama ji's flames:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-1/bleach/chapter-394.html
Aizen states the "flames of Ryūjin Jakka" and "for that power's one purpose WW ..." To say it can seal all flames would be a leap of faith after Aizen stated the flames of Ryūjin Jakka. Aizen never said all flames or any zanpakuto.
Also here it is said SEALED Ryūjin Jakka.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-6/bleach/chapter-394.html
Now personaly i am going with "it can only seal flames from Ryūjin Jakka".

Now i know Yama Ji's is well above Love BUT i do thing Love can hit as strong as Yama Ji IF he uses his mask and shikai:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-5/bleach/chapter-394.html
1 punch. Come on Love should have as much power behind a hit with his Mask + shikai as a punch from CC.

Kensei battle.
Well that fight was off panel and we have no idea what happened and Kensei's state. We also have no idea if he used his mask. Now if we had some statement how she won that fight by punching him to death or whatever but its left up in the air about what happened. If we use that fight we would use a lot of asumtions, personaly i don't like those so i will mostly ignore that fight.

Now IF love can hit with his Mask and shikai as hard as Yama Ji's punches and also aims for the head 1 hit should be enough. Love obviously has better tactics. So he could come up with something.
Not going to vote on this fight as of now, i need more time to think it trough.

Random101
February 01, 2011, 02:31 AM
1 punch. Come on Love should have as much power behind a hit with his Mask + shikai as a punch from CC.
That punch that obliterated his organs right there? First off it's a special technique that's the first half of the double bone two punch that obliterates Wonderwiess into tiny fragments not too long after. Hence it's not JUST a punch. Further that 'punch'? Did nothing. Wonderwiess patched it up like nothing. To beat wondy you need something several magnitudes more powerful than that, ie: Double Bone. Even arguing his strike could do more damage than that, which I'd be hard pressed to conceed (Given his weapon is more for blunt force trauma, not punching a hole in a dude given how it did on Starrk), it's not literally vaporizing Wonderwiess.

Granted Wonderwiess would likely get knocked just as far back, the problem is the damage ain't remotely keeping.

Similarly the rules as they are stated make us neglect anything they haven't shown as far as bankai go, due to lack of information. Potentially it's easy to see Love Winning if he uses his bankai depending on what it is. As it stands with him reduced to just shikai and mask, with power that didn't do much to Starrk with direct hits... Yeah... >>

xXan
February 01, 2011, 03:03 AM
That punch that obliterated his organs right there? First off it's a special technique that's the first half of the double bone two punch that obliterates Wonderwiess into tiny fragments not too long after. Hence it's not JUST a punch. Further that 'punch'? Did nothing. Wonderwiess patched it up like nothing. To beat wondy you need something several magnitudes more powerful than that, ie: Double Bone. Even arguing his strike could do more damage than that, which I'd be hard pressed to conceed (Given his weapon is more for blunt force trauma, not punching a hole in a dude given how it did on Starrk), it's not literally vaporizing Wonderwiess.

Granted Wonderwiess would likely get knocked just as far back, the problem is the damage ain't remotely keeping.

Similarly the rules as they are stated make us neglect anything they haven't shown as far as bankai go, due to lack of information. Potentially it's easy to see Love Winning if he uses his bankai depending on what it is. As it stands with him reduced to just shikai and mask, with power that didn't do much to Starrk with direct hits... Yeah... >>

Well i said aim for the head. If Yama Ji would have hit her in the head .... No brain=dead.
As for the punch i always belived it was just a punch with lots of reiatsu behind it. Is it something else?

Personaly i do belive that if WW is not going to block the attack and Love puts all his got behind a shikai+mask attack and aims for the head it would be over.

Random101
February 01, 2011, 03:15 AM
If it's a punch with a lot of reiatsu behind it, Double Bone would not be what it is. I can't honestly tell what he does, but it's clearly a specified technique of some sort that has some kind of exploding effect or something. He's clearly not punching through him, and Double Bone virtually vaporized him. Just putting a lot of power in a punch doesn't vaporize a dude. Knock him the hell back and burst through sure, but vaporizing a dude? Wat?

Though a head shot would be valid... provided he can do more than blunt trauma with it. I'm still not sold on him vaporizing literally anything with any sort of hit, particularly a downward blow to the helmeted knoggin, given that's the only way to go with those giant cone things protecting his other sides.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 03:27 AM
If it's a punch with a lot of reiatsu behind it, Double Bone would not be what it is. I can't honestly tell what he does, but it's clearly a specified technique of some sort that has some kind of exploding effect or something. He's clearly not punching through him, and Double Bone virtually vaporized him. Just putting a lot of power in a punch doesn't vaporize a dude. Knock him the hell back and burst through sure, but vaporizing a dude? Wat?

Though a head shot would be valid... provided he can do more than blunt trauma with it. I'm still not sold on him vaporizing literally anything with any sort of hit, particularly a downward blow to the helmeted knoggin, given that's the only way to go with those giant cone things protecting his other sides.

First a asteroid big enough and fast enough hitting the earth would defenetly "vaporize" it, well perhaps not vaporize it but defenetly blow it to pieces, WW was not vaporize but more ripped to pieces as big junks where still vizible. It is posible for something traveling fast enoug to vaporize something. When to objects colide at a good enough speed a shockwave is created. Just look in the comics how Superman level individuals punching one another creates creaters around them.
Now i got no idea what level of speed and power was behind that punch, i am not saying the old man has the strength of Superman but still there is no indication of a energy release at the point of impact. In other words there is no evidence on what was used. Same goes for Isshing and his finger hit on Aizen.

Now also i am not saying Love is going to vaporize WW head with a hit but smash it and perhaps set it on fire. I don't think WW can regenerate his brain. Even if he regenerates his brain his memories are not going to grow back and WW will be left in something like a catatonic state.

AlB
February 01, 2011, 03:39 AM
Going with WW.
With all the feats he displayed he's going to own Love. I won't go into further discussion since I'm gonna keep my thoughts for WW vs Ulq, simply voting WW here :amuse
[hr]

Well, it was pretty specifically said that he seals Ryujin Jakka. Since all Zan's have their own Reiatsu and such, I'd imagine it only applies to Yama's fire.

At any rate, I think we can give Love the benefit of the doubt here :amuse

He shattered Hitsu's HH in Bankai mode and Mashiro's mask dude :)

Random101
February 01, 2011, 04:05 AM
First a asteroid big enough and fast enough hitting the earth would defenetly "vaporize" it
Vaporize no, shatter and blow it appart, punch right through it sure. Trust me when i say what Double Bone did is a completely different concept to straight up force to say the least. I have no idea what actually went on, but someone does not fall into pieces from a single punch so far from the point of contact no matter how fast or how strong it is. Partly because at a certain point of speed what would actually happen is you tear through them like a bullet, and partly because crap just don't plain work that way.

Putting it another way, what Yoruichi did to GhostAizen with her shunko enhanced punch was straight up force, supercharging it with speed to the point that she basically punches right through him. Vaporizing is another concept entirely.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 01, 2011, 04:15 AM
This is really damn difficult. In Resureccion I'd say Wondy has upper hand, if Love won't use Bankai, but if he goes straight for his head even in Resurecion, but using his Shikai and his mask should be enough to kill him, cause I really doubt that Double Bone is stronger than Shikai + Mask from a Captain and I'd say one of the three strongest Vaizards.
Also I don't like the argument of Wondy taking out Bankai Kensei, cause it was off-panel and we don't know how he bit him and if he bit him at all.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 04:28 AM
Vaporize no, shatter and blow it appart, punch right through it sure. Trust me when i say what Double Bone did is a completely different concept to straight up force to say the least. I have no idea what actually went on, but someone does not fall into pieces from a single punch so far from the point of contact no matter how fast or how strong it is. Partly because at a certain point of speed what would actually happen is you tear through them like a bullet, and partly because crap just don't plain work that way.

Putting it another way, what Yoruichi did to GhostAizen with her shunko enhanced punch was straight up force, supercharging it with speed to the point that she basically punches right through him. Vaporizing is another concept entirely.

I used Vaporize with "" and then added something after it:
well perhaps not vaporize it but defenetly blow it to pieces, WW was not vaporize but more ripped to pieces as big junks where still vizible.
Still with enough force and size you could turn the earth into a dust/gas cloud. Of course the posibility for the planet to form again is there if you don't spread the matter well enough because of the gravity.
But i agree with the rest. Anyway the idea was if Love uses his mask and shikai and hits WW in the head he would probably die. But this is a long shot i am probably going to end up voting for WW.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 06:15 AM
I don't think Love's shikai can have more power than Kensei's bankai and since Kensei lost, I don't see Love doing any better. WW is strong, he is fast, he can even regenerate his internal organs, his many arms can both keep his opponents at bay and attack them with punches, WW's scream negates ceroes and whatnot, there's nothing Love can do to stop WW, he is just too strong. WW wins easily.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 08:03 AM
I don't think Love's shikai can have more power than Kensei's bankai and since Kensei lost, I don't see Love doing any better. WW is strong, he is fast, he can even regenerate his internal organs, his many arms can both keep his opponents at bay and attack them with punches, WW's scream negates ceroes and whatnot, there's nothing Love can do to stop WW, he is just too strong. WW wins easily.

The only problem i see with this is that we never got to see that fight. It was off panel. Who knows what happened there. You can't even say WW won that alone, perhaps something help him? Its all speculation.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 08:27 AM
The only problem i see with this is that we never got to see that fight. It was off panel. Who knows what happened there. You can't even say WW won that alone, perhaps something help him? Its all speculation.

Somebody helped WW? Who? Omaeda?

I don't think there's any logical possibility other than the one that Kensei lost. Kensei was dead serious, he said he wasn't the type to go easy on kids but he still lost. The fight was off-panel because Kubo didn't want to show Kensei's abilities and WW's intervention to Yamamoto vs Aizen fight was supposed to be a surprise.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 08:30 AM
Somebody helped WW? Who? Omaeda?

I don't think there's any logical possibility other than the one that Kensei lost. Kensei was dead serious, he said he wasn't the type to go easy on kids but he still lost. The fight was off-panel because Kubo didn't want to show Kensei's abilities and WW's intervention to Yamamoto vs Aizen fight was supposed to be a surprise.

Well i actualy agree with that but its still an asumtion.
Rules state:
Characters can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga.
This does not qualifies as one (pic or text).

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 08:41 AM
Well i actualy agree with that but its still an asumtion.
Rules state:
Characters can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga.
This does not qualifies as one (pic or text).

I think such assumptions are allowed if they're almost certain to be true. For example I think we're allowed to assume Nnoitra can use Gran Rey Cero, Tessai can use Hado 90, etc.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 09:40 AM
I think such assumptions are allowed if they're almost certain to be true. For example I think we're allowed to assume Nnoitra can use Gran Rey Cero, Tessai can use Hado 90, etc.

To tell you the truth i am not sure Nnoitra can do that lol. But i think Ulquiorra said all of them can use it? If not i would go with no or its not in his caracter to do it and its the same thing.
As for Tessai we are again walking on tin ice. Questions like, can he use it with no incantation, what types of hado 90 etc. Not even Hachi used any if i remember this right. The best thing you can do is use only the things showed in the manga. I know it lives some caracters up in the air but its better then people starting posting fanfic.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 09:53 AM
The best thing you can do is use only the things showed in the manga. I know it lives some caracters up in the air but its better then people starting posting fanfic.

The mods allow us to make logical inferences:


All characters should be expected to have only the abilities demonstrated in the manga and those someone can clearly project them having based on inferences from the manga. Tessai, for example, being formerly the Kidou Corps Chief and being shown as extremely proficient with high-level kidou, can be assumed to be able to perform all of the other kidou spells already shown in the manga (except those done by Hachigen who stated that he invented his own).

So yes, we are allowed to use the info that Kensei lost to WW or make the assumptions that Tessai can use Hado 90, Nnoitra can use GRC, etc. ;)

Xerneas
February 01, 2011, 10:19 AM
Going on what the manga showed and implied, WW takes this easily. We can't use Love's Ban Kai cause we never saw that. Unless its hax, which seems more like Rose's and not Love's style, it wouldn't matter anyway.

- WW defeated a Ban Kai Visored Captain. We don't know how, but the point is he did. A guy like Kensei wouldn't have let him get anywhere near Yama-jii unless he got his ass kicked. Off-panel feats are usually very iffy but in this case the indications are clear. Just going by this WW has a huge advantage already.

- He has better regeneration than Ulquiorra, who was the regen specialist among the Espada. Yama-jii eventually got rid of him by literally shattering his entire body into pieces. But he came back from having his whole gut wrecked by Single Bone without any side effects. Single Bone would have killed Ulquiorra. What Love showed so far wouldn't be enough to put him down.

- His speed is superior. The guy's Sonido managed to intercept the point blank Single Bone to Aizen's face. I don't need to stress that to react to any attack from the Commander takes some serious speed, much less one at that range (and WW wasn't even near them when Yama used the attack!). Only other people I can see pulling off something like this are Ichigo and Yoruichi. Love would get speed-blitzed after WW releases, which may well be what happened to his comrade.

- WW's attack power is not to be trifled with either. He sent the Commander sailing out of sight and crashing into the town. I weight these kinds of feats very highly because of who they were against. Even though he was devastated in the end I feel he was the strongest Arrancar in Aizen's army and none of the Espada would have lasted as long as he did.

- He is clearly above Starrk in strength - which the latter basically admitted to when he first showed up. And since Love couldn't beat Starrk (with what we have seen from his arsenal so far), he's toast here. The kid doesn't get his due because he wasn't cool or pretty.

Snake_Cowboy
February 01, 2011, 11:29 AM
I think Serenade summed it up rather effectively. I'm a huge fan of Love, but Wonderweiss takes this, without question. Only with his Bankai could Love stand a chance and even then, I highly doubt it.

Wonderweiss may be an idiot, but he's dangerous as hell. I think that Love, with his shikai, could force Wonderweiss to release, as he seems like a pretty skilled captain-class fighter and he packs a serious punch with Tengumaru. But once Wonderweiss does use his Resurreccíon, Love is doomed.

You don't catch Yamamoto's zanpakutou with one hand and then send him, the freaking Captain-Commander, crashing into the pavement if you're not incredibly powerful. I agree that Wonderweiss was probably stronger than any of the Espada. Love's Hollow mask will not matter one bit; Wonderweiss has shown such impressive speed (being able to catch Yamamoto's punch to Aizen's face after having a hole punched through his stomach and being sent through several blocks himself), regenerative abilities surpassing Ulquiorra's and a dangerous amount of arms. He was able to catch Yamamoto with them and dent him, if only slightly; a similar tactic would most likely kill Love.

There is nothing Love can do to take an opponent of that calibre and certainly not without his Bankai. Wonderweiss wins, without a doubt.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 12:38 PM
Love doesn't stand a chance.

WW is a beast that took out kensei with bankai and most likely mask with seemingly little effort and he was able to survive against the CC for quite some time. That is no small feat.

Love's shikai would do nothing against someone like WW. remember that love's shikai with mask didn't even scratch starks despite hitting him at point blank. WW
would dominate

conn-man
February 01, 2011, 01:46 PM
I really like Love, hes my favorite vizard but this time he loses. WW is just to indestructable be be destroyed by anything Love can offer. His HSR will recover from almost anything.

Loves named attack+mask that he used on Stark was powerful but it didnt even make stark bleed a little so its not gonna beat WW.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 03:54 PM
Oh come on ... Nobody tries to defend Love? i hate this fights. At least do an effort to find a way for Love to put up a fight.

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 04:16 PM
Oh come on ... Nobody tries to defend Love? i hate this fights. At least do an effort to find a way for Love to put up a fight.

Hard to. The most powerful attack he can possibly pull off in this matchup is the fire attack with his mask that he used on Stark. We don't know it's power, since it failed to connect, but it's pretty much irrelevant either way considering WW's regeneration.

Ever play a strategy RPG when there's one guy blocking a path, and a healer in the back putting him back to 100% after every turn? Same deal here. You need to be able to take them out in essentially one go if you hope to beat them. If you can't, they'll wear you down and you'll lose.

If we'd seen some kind of ridiculous Bankai power from Love, it would be defend-worthy. But as it stands, that masked fire attack will not kill WW, there's just no way.

monkey D luffy
February 01, 2011, 04:45 PM
if people can assume wonderweis beat kensei we can also assume logically that love has bankai. he was a captain after all... and now when they are both on equel footing it will be a tough match, i would actually go with love, the dude ripped a gillian in 2 with bare hands without shikai, none of us can tell how strong he will be with bankai.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 04:53 PM
if people can assume wonderweis beat kensei we can also assume logically that love has bankai. he was a captain after all... and now when they are both on equel footing it will be a tough match, i would actually go with love, the dude ripped a gillian in 2 with bare hands without shikai, none of us can tell how strong he will be with bankai.

Love certainly has a bankai but he isn't allowed to use it in this fight because we have no idea what it is. Only characters who already revealed their bankai are allowed to use it. (But we know nothing about abilities of Kensei's bankai, so I have no idea how we'll take it into consideration. :blink)

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 05:05 PM
Love certainly has a bankai but he isn't allowed to use it in this fight because we have no idea what it is. Only characters who already revealed their bankai are allowed to use it. (But we know nothing about abilities of Kensei's bankai, so I have no idea how we'll take it into consideration. :blink)

Exactly. We can safely assume that Love has a Bankai, but without having a clue what it is, it's impossible to consider for his matchups. That's why mask and fire attack is a hard sell against someone like WW.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 05:36 PM
if people can assume wonderweis beat kensei we can also assume logically that love has bankai. he was a captain after all... and now when they are both on equel footing it will be a tough match, i would actually go with love, the dude ripped a gillian in 2 with bare hands without shikai, none of us can tell how strong he will be with bankai.
Even if he has bankai, chances are high that he would still lose and suffer the same fate as Kensei.

WW is dangerously powerful. Just goes to show how bad-ass yamamoto is

freshseth83
February 01, 2011, 05:40 PM
Love is strong, but WW is probably stronger. Love seemed like a show off, him and Rose, thinking they'd beat Starrk. Then got schooled by Shunsui on what a war is. Dude can't hold his mask for more than a couple minutes.. "because were hero's" is what he said to Starrk. Lame. WW would punch him unconscious. I hope we see more of Love, because his fire technique looked pretty strong, but if you can't burn Starrk, you can't burn WW either.

El Samurai Guapo
February 01, 2011, 06:14 PM
Sorry to have kept you all waiting. Don't worry, I'm finally here to share my words of wisdom with you all.


I know Samurai's gonna hate me for saying it, but WW beat Bankai (and probably masked) Kensei, and his HSR made him still at 100% for when he went against Yama.

Don't worry, I don't hate you for that, in fact this is pretty much what I've come to expect of you. I do seem to recall you saying that you hated using off-panel fights as evidence though...

Anyway, I know this will probably come as a huge shock to a lot of you, but I favor Love. So far the main arguments for WW I've been hearing are the whole bankai Kensei losing argument, and WW's HSR. At least the latter is somewhat legitimate. I don't believe for a minute that Kensei was defeated by Wondy. I wouldn't believe Kensei with his shikai would have lost. Seriously, that guy could throw wind lasers that cut you apart, stab you and make en explosion from his knife, and shoot a kamehameha. I can't even imagine how powerful tekken tachikaze is. In any case we must remember that Kensei ≠ Love. Yeah, they're both vaizards, but that's about all they have in common. Would Kenpachi automatically lose to an a opponent that Toushirou lost to (or vice versa)? Well, they're both captains...you see my point?

Now in regards to HSR, it does seem to have a limitation. Hit Wondy with enough blunt force and he'll crumble apart. This is an area Love obviously excels in. Yamamoto is powerful and everything, but is he sogodly that he's stronger unarmed than a captain that's apparently power-oriented and using his shikai and a hollow mask? In my opinion, no, he's not.

If unarmed Mashiro (IMO the weakest of the vaizards; Hiyori would have actually killed wondy) was able to hit WW hard enough to knock him out for a while, imagine what Love (who ought to be several times stronger himself) can do with his own mask and shikai. I also agree with xXan that Love can target the kid's head if for some reason he can't hit him hard enough to get passed HSR. In regards to Hifuki no Kozuchi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-17.html), it's a toss up as to whether or not WW can negate those flames. If he can't, I'm pretty sure that attack would do the trick. Like you've pointed out Takahashi, the aforementioned attack was evaded by Starrk. The one hit Love did land on Starrk was mask-less and wasn't a special shikai technique either. Also, Starrk might have lacked HSR, but he may very well (most likely) had superior hierro to Wonderwiess. kkck mentioned something in a recent post of his that I actually liked a lot. Going by his fight against Grimmjow, in HM Ichigo's mask seemed to give him around the same level of boost that arrancar got from using resureccion. No reason why Love shouldn't receive a similar boost, and he's got three whole minutes to pulverize the kid.

Yosh! (tags Jackk) alright 相棒 you're up.

En Yang Ji
February 01, 2011, 06:15 PM
I think Love and Kensei are being underestimated a bit. If Kensei did lose I doubt it was easy. WW has the best HSR of any arrancur. A possible scenario; Kensei whooped WW, thought he won and than let his guard down. WW could of took advantage and critically injured Kensei. Kensei could of lost without being completely outclassed. I seriously doubt shinigami of Love, Kensei, Shunsui and Urahara's level can be beaten so easily when they use bankai.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 07:47 PM
I think Love and Kensei are being underestimated a bit. If Kensei did lose I doubt it was easy. WW has the best HSR of any arrancur. A possible scenario; Kensei whooped WW, thought he won and than let his guard down. WW could of took advantage and critically injured Kensei. Kensei could of lost without being completely outclassed. I seriously doubt shinigami of Love, Kensei, Shunsui and Urahara's level can be beaten so easily when they use bankai.
U can look any way u want, thing is Kensei lost. And he even stated he was not going to go easy on WW. So I doubt he showed mercy.

And yes, shunsui and urahara's bankai won't be beaten easily with bankai... love and kensei are another story. U can't clump them together

Random101
February 01, 2011, 09:59 PM
, but is he sogodly that he's stronger unarmed than a captain that's apparently power-oriented and using his shikai and a hollow mask?
Armed with his Double Bone, a specialized technique designed to virtually vaporize the target upon a direct hit? Yes. Granted we don't know the mechanics behind it, but it's a damn hard sell to tell me Love could even match the single bone tech in terms of outright damage, let alone the bloody double.

Mostly because there's a massively huge difference between blunt force trauma and exploding a dude's intestines somehow. Again I have little doubt Wonderwiess is getting knocked the hell back, but you cannot possibly sell me that it's going to do much in the way of visible damage, not if Starrk survives direct hits with nothing visible.

code4destruction
February 01, 2011, 10:09 PM
You know...this is tough. Love was a captain and going with my belief that masked captain level fighters are pure win against anyone not Aizen...

WW's single purpose was to seal Ryuujinjakka's flames. In fact, I wonder if he could even release without first absorbing the flames...(I really should re-read it).

Anyway, I may side with Love on this one to support the underdog. But I wouldn't be surprised if WW won. After all, there's really no telling what that kid can do. Love was able to hold off for some time against Starrk with the help of Rose though.

And did we see Love's Bankai? Man I really don't remember...

Random101
February 01, 2011, 10:15 PM
Nope. Unknown Bankai's are Exempt from consideration here. While he could indeed potentially win with Bankai, depending what it is, his issue is he has no real way to cause enough damage at one moment, and if he gets in Wonderwiess's arms he's going to take a crapton of damage at once.

code4destruction
February 01, 2011, 10:23 PM
Nope. Unknown Bankai's are Exempt from consideration here. While he could indeed potentially win with Bankai, depending what it is, his issue is he has no real way to cause enough damage at one moment, and if he gets in Wonderwiess's arms he's going to take a crapton of damage at once.

Ah I see. No considering unknown bankai. That makes this both easier and more difficult :blink

Sucks for Love then...b/c he gets his butt handed to him using only that Shikai. Though I wonder if a full on hit would shatter the poor boy like Yama-jii's punch?

Jackk
February 01, 2011, 11:11 PM
I think Love can actually win this.

I will begin by stating that I really can't buy the notion of WW beating Bankai Kensei, much less Bankai + Mask Kensei. I still believe that it's certainly possible that WW just flew off to where Yama and Aizen were soon after Yama activated all that fire etc... and Kensei just let WW go, not wanting to get in the way of Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku technique (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-393/page014.html); Kensei also probably then went to tend to Mashiro who was really injured. I mean, could be anything really... since we didn't even see Kensei and Mashiro after the war. It's not as if people could claim that we actually saw Kensei beat up and with serious injuries after the war, which could have suggested that he lost his fight.... but we saw none of that. And yet people are claiming with such certainty that Kensei went all out and lost to WW even though, in reality, we really didn't see absolutely anything of their confrontation. Actually, never mind... I take that back, we did see something, and that was sealed Kensei easily being fast enough and strong enough to intercept a punch from WW, and Kensei did that with his bare hand while also carrying Mashiro. Heck Kensei even grabbed WW and sent him flying down across some buildings lol

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-376/page017.html.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page002.html

Then after that, Kensei did go Bankai... but the last thing he said wasn't that he was going to go all out and kill the kid. As a matter of fact, Kensei told Mashiro that he wasn't going to avenge her as he was actually mad at her due to the fact the she ended up the way she did because she did not listen to his advice and warnings regarding her Mask usage. Anyway, Kensei then merely stated that he was just going to give that annoying kid a taste of his fist and he went Bankai, but then we didn't see anything else, so yeah... http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page004.html

Heck even if we assume that Kensei did lose the fight, it could even be as Kio said, in other words...to reiterate: Kensei could have whooped WW, thought he won and then let his guard down. WW could have taken advantage and critically injured Kensei. Therefore, Kensei could have lost without being completely outclassed. In any case... the point is, there are different possibilities because we really didn't see what happened. Seriously, even Yami was still shown defeated in Hueco Mundo after the war even though Yami getting defeated happened off-panel, yet it was never stated nor shown how and if Kensei even lost...

Furthermore, Masked Mashiro was also beating WW with her bare hands. And I'm pretty sure that Masked Love is significantly stronger and more powerful than Masked Mashiro. Make that Shikai + Mask for love and I'm pretty sure that Love could have the power to take down released WW; I do believe that the Mask gives them a pretty significant boost. Granted Love needs to get some good directs hits in, and while I don't think that WW's high speed regeneration makes him invincible....it could still be troublesome since it certainly does make him quite durable;however, a good hit on WW's head would be great specially as I really don't think that WW can regenerate his head. Not to mention the fact that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person.... even Hisagi, a mere VC, could kill resurrected Tousen by stabbing him in the back of the head (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-386/page019.html), and we've also seen Aizen placing a barrier in the back of his head (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-401-page-7.html) in order to protect his head and his neck; Aizen even goes on to mention that the back of the neck is a living being's worst blind spot (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-401-page-10.html).

Further, I think Love is also a very smart fighter, thus he could keep his distance and attack when he sees openings. Also, Love will not be letting his Mask break nor will he get exhausted from overusing the Mask because the guy has actually shown that he can really use the thing very efficiently. What I mean is that while Love may have a 3 minute time limit if he uses the Mask without taking it off until it breaks (not to mention that 3 minutes is actually quite a bit already in Bleach; Ichigo did quite a bit to grimmjow in 11 seconds when they fought in KT), Love has actually been shown using his Mask very efficiently by using the Mask for short times when he attacks, then taking it off, and reapplying it multiple times during his fights. I believe that removing the Mask when they're not actually engaged in combat with the enemy is very smart because not only will it conserve energy, but I think that it should logically allow them to regain back time on their Masks for when they put it on again. If you think about it... taking the Mask off in idle moments, and only putting it on at certain key moments when going on the offensive... will actually indirectly increase the time that he can have access to the Mask in a fight. Heck we even saw Kensei telling Mashiro that fighting that level of opponent (wonderweiss) will quickly exhaust her and that she should remove her Mask before she runs out of time http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/9.html .....Therefore, using it to its limit is really not wise, to say the least. And I'm sure that Love knows this.

I had already pointed this out in another thread, but I'll reiterate here that Love's efficient use of his Mask can be seen when he fought in FKT. Initially, Love put on his Mask (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-378-page-20.html)(along with the other vaizards) to show off against the Menos; he literally tore in half the huge hollow (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-379-page-16.html) with his bare hands. And after they killed the Menos, we see Love removing his Mask (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-380-page-14.html). Then, when Stark asks love about his Mask.... Love puts it back on (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-16.html) and uses it with his shikai for a bit, then Love removes his Mask again after the attack (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-18.html)...since he's just standing there and not engaged in combat yet (wise man). Then, he sees Stark releasing his wolves, and Love immediately puts his Mask back on (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-5.html) again. Anyway, from what we've seen... Love certainly knows how to use his Mask efficiently.

Love's skills and endurance should not be underestimated either. We know that 100+ years ago, in the TBTP arc, Love was taken off guard and then punched in the back (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-7.html) by hollow Kensei... and even though Love did receive quite a bit of damage after being hit with such force, Love still took that and was still standing just fine for the most part.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-9.html

Furthermore, Love was also seen fighting (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-222.html) against a Bankai full hollow Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-222-page-2.html) ...And it's worth noting that that hollow Ichigo already even had some crazy high speed regeneration (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220-page-2.html). Therefore, it's not as if WW's high speed regeneration is some new concept that Love is not familiar with already, sure Love may not know right away that WW has high speed regeneration...but Love will find out quickly and then he'll be more cautious. Further, Love also showed some pretty good endurance in his fight against Stark as Love did get hit hard by a significant amount of Stark's soul wolves, yet he was still able to stand with mostly just some bruises, which shows again that he is quite durable; Stark even mentions that there's no way that ceros would have hurt strong guys like Love and Rose, and states that his wolves are actually not ceros (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html), but that they are actually a part of his soul...implying that they cause far more damage than ceros. Heck look at the massive explosion that Love was in during the first soul wolves assault: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-13.html ... Then after that, he was hit hard without his Mask, and he still didn't go down!

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-18.html

In addition, I also think that Love's Tengumaru is a great weapon for combat...and not only for offense, but also for defense as well. I mean, that thing is huge (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-7.html)! and Love can swing that thing really fast (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-11.html) too. Heck we even saw how Love's shikai provided a perfect defense against released Stark's ceros (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-8.html)....making them completely useless and ineffective against Love. All in all, perhaps Love will not have an easy fight against Wonderweiss considering his high speed regeneration, but I think that Love can pull it off if he plays his cards right. Not to mention the fact that WW also completely lacks reasoning capabilities (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-394/page002.html), so WW is not going to be forming any complex tactics, to say the least... and this can certainly play in Love's favor.

xXan
February 02, 2011, 03:56 AM
@Jackk

Nice post man. Personaly i had given up on trying to explain to people how that fight does not mean much because it was off panel and anything could have happened. I see this to much around here. People asume X and then pass it off as hard proof.

1 good hit from Love to WW heads and its over. Even if he somehow (don't see how) he can regenerate his brain his memories are not going to grow back. So its over anyway. Now the only problem is actualy hitting WW in the head and that can be done because Love can actualy use his "head".

Random101
February 02, 2011, 04:10 AM
Wonderwiess doesn't have memories, being a moron, so... What's that supposed to do?

xXan
February 02, 2011, 04:20 AM
Wonderwiess doesn't have memories, being a moron, so... What's that supposed to do?

Are you born with the ability to walk? No .. You learn it. Same for most other stuff, like what is a door, rock, smell, a hand etc. Also how do you think he knew how to seal the CC sword ? He defenetly has some basic memories. Me thinks Aizen was refering to his memories before the transformation of curent WW.

Imagine a new born baby fighting here even with WW powers. He will probably cover his eyes and cry.

Random101
February 02, 2011, 04:47 AM
Or it's preset to his instinct, like most hollows. And indeed animals and the like. >>

xXan
February 02, 2011, 05:22 AM
Or it's preset to his instinct, like most hollows. And indeed animals and the like. >>

Instinct that can:
Identify fried and foe. If they where the same race, like let's say wolves would be one thing but this time he could do that with shinigami and hollows that where on his team.
Scream for diferent results from getting friends out of trouble to making a hollow spit menos.
Identify the captain commander.
Knew how to seal the CC's sword.
Knew when to step in to save Aizen.
Knew how to follow orders.
Knew how to fight.
Knew how to identify diferent people. Who was Aizen, who was Torsen etc. There is no way this can be done by instinct.
I can find more but there is no point.
Even animals learn hot to fly, walk, run etc. If you whant to belive WW is doing all those by instinc be my gues.

Oh and Aizen never said he keeps forgeting everthing that happened 1 second ago, just the fact that he sacrificed his memories to become what he is now. If you forget what you have done 1 second ago how would you know what you need to do the next second? Makes no sense to me.

UchihaHunter
February 02, 2011, 10:20 AM
I think Love can actually win this.

I will begin by stating that I really can't buy the notion of WW beating Bankai Kensei, much less Bankai + Mask Kensei. I still believe that it's certainly possible that WW just flew off to where Yama and Aizen were soon after Yama activated all that fire etc... and Kensei just let WW go, not wanting to get in the way of Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku technique
So Kensei just stayed out of the way the entire rest of the fight? Seriously, if he didn't lose to WW, then he's pretty much the most cowardly Captain we've ever seen. Even seeing that they couldn't do much damage to Aizen, the rest of the captains still fought him. Just because you can't see WW beating Bankai Kensei or Bankai + Mask Kensei, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Considering what we know of Kensei's personality, it doesn't fit his personality to avoid the entire rest of the fight. They were still in FKT...so they couldn't have been that far away. And what, after WW negated Ryuujin Jakka, Kensei didn't even think of fighting at least Gin? At least Ichigo was watching the fight for an opportunity; what is Kensei's excuse? Lol, knowing you guys, it'll be that Kensei was under KS and didn't know that the fight was going on.


Kensei also probably then went to tend to Mashiro who was really injured. I mean, could be anything really... since we didn't even see Kensei and Mashiro after the war. It's not as if people could claim that we actually saw Kensei beat up and with serious injuries after the war, which could have suggested that he lost his fight.... but we saw none of that. And yet people are claiming with such certainty that Kensei went all out and lost to WW even though, in reality, we really didn't see absolutely anything of their confrontation.
So...since we didn't see what happened, we should automatically assume the best for Kensei? At the VERY least, he didn't damage WW to the point that he couldn't get to Aizen and Yama. Didn't a ton of things happen between WW vs. Kensei and Aizen vs. Yama? Such as the trashing of the Captains and the Vaizards? And Kensei spent the entire time tending to Mashiro? That takes more than a willing suspension of disbelief, especially considering that Unohana came later, and he still didn't attempt to get involved.


Actually, never mind... I take that back, we did see something, and that was sealed Kensei easily being fast enough and strong enough to intercept a punch from WW, and Kensei did that with his bare hand while also carrying Mashiro. Heck Kensei even grabbed WW and sent him flying down across some buildings lol
Yep, because sending someone flying across some buildings = being able to beat them...didn't Po send Komamura flying? But we saw how that ended, right? WW was able to intercept a punch from Yama, and sent Yama flying, but we saw how that ended as well. My point is, let's not sit here and act like him throwing WW is impressive. Even Kensei knew that he would need to use Bankai to fight sealed WW.


Heck even if we assume that Kensei did lose the fight, it could even be as Kio said, in other words...to reiterate: Kensei could have whooped WW, thought he won and then let his guard down. WW could have taken advantage and critically injured Kensei. Therefore, Kensei could have lost without being completely outclassed. In any case... the point is, there are different possibilities because we really didn't see what happened. Seriously, even Yami was still shown defeated in Hueco Mundo after the war even though Yami getting defeated happened off-panel, yet it was never stated nor shown how and if Kensei even lost...
So...instead of assuming that Kensei lost face-up to WW, we'll assume that WW cheapshotted him? We didn't see what happened, so we're going to assume that Kensei didn't lose? Again, if he didn't lose, he has no excuse for not showing up during the fight with Aizen. And if he did lose, it's entirely possible for Love to lose in whatever way he lost. I don't understand why the HSR would be enough to surprise any of the Vaizards, when they know that hollows in general have HSR, and they've already fought hybrids with HSR. So...basically, he would've had to K.O. WW for a significant period of time, then felt that he won, reverted his Bankai back to his knife, and then got Ukitake'd? Keep in mind that later on in your post, you stated that Love shouldn't be surprised by WW's HSR, but we're going to argue that Kensei was? I know that that's just an example, I'm just stating that you're going to have to come up with a better one than that as to why Kensei didn't appear later.


Furthermore, Masked Mashiro was also beating WW with her bare hands. And I'm pretty sure that Masked Love is significantly stronger and more powerful than Masked Mashiro.
Was WW serious in that fight? It didn't really seem like it. Mashiro was beating him up, but she wasn't damaging him. So basically, it didn't matter at all.


Make that Shikai + Mask for love and I'm pretty sure that Love could have the power to take down released WW; I do believe that the Mask gives them a pretty significant boost.
So now we're assuming that Love + Shikai + Mask is going to be more powerful than a killing technique from Yamamoto? I'm sorry, I know that hollowifcation expands/removes the limits from the shinigami that experiences it, but that doesn't mean that they automatically exceed the limits...if it did, then all of the Vaizards would be hax. Considering that Shikai + Mask for Love didn't enable him to defeat Stark, I doubt that it would take out released WW.


Granted Love needs to get some good directs hits in, and while I don't think that WW's high speed regeneration makes him invincible....it could still be troublesome since it certainly does make him quite durable;however, a good hit on WW's head would be great specially as I really don't think that WW can regenerate his head. Not to mention the fact that the head is the most vulnerable spot for any person....
Lol, so let's just argue that whoever gets hit in the head with a significant technique first will lose ;-)

...I don't think WW is going to sit there and leave his head out there to get wacked...


Further, I think Love is also a very smart fighter, thus he could keep his distance and attack when he sees openings. Also, Love will not be letting his Mask break nor will he get exhausted from overusing the Mask because the guy has actually shown that he can really use the thing very efficiently.
I don't think anyone is arguing that he's not a smart fighter (even though, as noted by Rose, he lost his ability to continuously attack Stark because of his own attack.). And I certainly hope that no one is talking about Love's mask breaking or something like he's Ichigo or Mashiro, lol


Love's skills and endurance should not be underestimated either.
tl;dr, but basically, you're saying that WW, who was able to hold Yamamoto with two hands and pummel him with tens of others, wouldn't be able to grab Love? (since you're talking about Tengumaru as a sort of defense)

And...you're saying that even if he does get hits in, it won't injure him to the point that he couldn't continue, correct? It's hard to say what WW's level of power is, since he fought Yamamoto, but I seriously doubt that Love, even with his mask on, has the same durability as Yamamoto...this dude laughed after getting stabbed by Aizen, lol

I guess you're only arguing that Love can beat WW, but...I don't even know about that. It sucks, since Love is one of the better Vaizards, imo, and he actually has sufficient battle data for us to use in these threads, but I don't think that someone that could take blows from Yamamoto should be getting taken out by someone that has no victory feats. And since there are no scenarios that have been presented to me that can explain Kensei not showing up after his skirmish with WW, I'm assuming that Kensei lost to WW. Whether he lost because of a cheap shot (which I don't think is really possible), or a straight fight, I still think he lost. If someone can explain a fight scenario in which Kensei can be legitimately surprised by WW in a cheap manner (like Ukitake), then I'll take it, but for now, I can't think of any way for WW to surprise Kensei in a way that makes sense considering his experience.

And, off topic, but can we stop using the fight with Hollow Ichigo as a measurement of the Vaizards abilities? If we take that fight as a serious fight, then we have to assume that the Vaizards can all beat almost any character in the manga, when in fact, the only one that won a fight was Hachi (who didn't even fight Ichigo). Yes, it did perform a Cero. Yes, it did have HSR. No, it wasn't a captain-class opponent. Seriously, it screws up power scaling worse than regular Ichigo does! And that says a lot, lol

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 11:28 AM
Don't worry, I don't hate you for that, in fact this is pretty much what I've come to expect of you. I do seem to recall you saying that you hated using off-panel fights as evidence though...

Jeez. Do you really have to act like I hate the Vaizards in every thread they're in?

Yes, off panel things are generally inconsistent and not good evidence. That doesn't change the fact that we KNOW Kensei lost in some way, and considering what we saw from WW, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that he was just overpowered. I'm not making some wild, crazy assumption when I say that WW beat Kensei.


Anyway, I know this will probably come as a huge shock to a lot of you, but I favor Love. So far the main arguments for WW I've been hearing are the whole bankai Kensei losing argument, and WW's HSR. At least the latter is somewhat legitimate. I don't believe for a minute that Kensei was defeated by Wondy. I wouldn't believe Kensei with his shikai would have lost.

Wait what?

There is nothing to suggest that Kensei DIDN'T lose. Is it really that hard to believe that Aizen's trump card could beat a Vaizard?


Seriously, that guy could throw wind lasers that cut you apart, stab you and make en explosion from his knife, and shoot a kamehameha. I can't even imagine how powerful tekken tachikaze is.

Yes, the concept is cool, but generally all abilities are aesthetically appealing, doesn't mean they're super strong. Comparability is impossible with regards to WW. Kensei used that Kamehameha against HSR Ichigo. Granted, he was obviously holding back as he didn't want to kill Ichigo, but it did nothing anyway. So we can't take anything from it in regards to power or effectiveness against an HSR opponent.


In any case we must remember that Kensei ≠ Love. Yeah, they're both vaizards, but that's about all they have in common. Would Kenpachi automatically lose to an a opponent that Toushirou lost to (or vice versa)? Well, they're both captains...you see my point?

No, because if Hitsugaya got off paneled by someone in perfect condition, it's not a ridiculous assumption that they are on a higher level than most captains. I would say any captain should be wary if another captain was off paneled (with the exception of Ukitake, we don't know WTF is going on with him and his illness).

You and Jackk need to realize this isn't Vaizard hate, but that WW is just that strong (or rather, we genuinely believe he is, nothing is 100%). If he went up against my favorite character (Byakuya) I'd vote for WW in a second.


Now in regards to HSR, it does seem to have a limitation. Hit Wondy with enough blunt force and he'll crumble apart. This is an area Love obviously excels in.

He hit Stark dead on with that giant spike covered club, yet we didn't see any significant damage whatsoever. No, it wasn't his strongest attack, but if even your standard smash of the club did essentially nothing, it's not a good sign when you're fighting a guy who can regenerate.


Yamamoto is powerful and everything, but is he sogodly that he's stronger unarmed than a captain that's apparently power-oriented and using his shikai and a hollow mask? In my opinion, no, he's not.

I think he could. Although I don't like the mindfuck chapters, we saw Aizen one shotting captain levels, and then admitting that Yamamoto was actually quite a lot stronger in a fair fight. Quite an endorsement for his strength. Kubo made a point of stripping everything from the CC, and making him still have one of the most impressive ass kickings in the manga.


If unarmed Mashiro (IMO the weakest of the vaizards; Hiyori would have actually killed wondy) was able to hit WW hard enough to knock him out for a while, imagine what Love (who ought to be several times stronger himself) can do with his own mask and shikai.

There was no lasting damage, so it doesn't matter a whole lot if he got a face full of feet a couple times. (although I still think Mashiro was pretty impressive in that fight....For a while)



I also agree with xXan that Love can target the kid's head if for some reason he can't hit him hard enough to get passed HSR. In regards to Hifuki no Kozuchi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-17.html), it's a toss up as to whether or not WW can negate those flames. If he can't, I'm pretty sure that attack would do the trick. Like you've pointed out Takahashi, the aforementioned attack was evaded by Starrk. The one hit Love did land on Starrk was mask-less and wasn't a special shikai technique either.

So, targeting the head is now the end all win for someone who can regenerate? That's a pretty loose and oversimplified reasoning. Love has a head too, who's to say WW couldn't just Gatling punch the hell out of Love's head then? He'll, he's got enough arms to punch 20 people in the face at once....



Also, Starrk might have lacked HSR, but he may very well (most likely) had superior hierro to Wonderwiess. kkck mentioned something in a recent post of his that I actually liked a lot. Going by his fight against Grimmjow, in HM Ichigo's mask seemed to give him around the same level of boost that arrancar got from using resureccion. No reason why Love shouldn't receive a similar boost, and he's got three whole minutes to pulverize the kid.

Yosh! (tags Jackk) alright 相棒 you're up.

Stark's Hierro was never even mentioned as far as I know, so how can we compare it at all? Hell, the BEST Hierro belongs to number 5. If the guy in the middle can have the best, why would you assume that number 1 has a better version than someone else?

Gran Maestro
February 02, 2011, 01:20 PM
Yamamoto's double-bone is a special hand-to-hand combat technique that is apparently much stronger than anything Kensei (bankai+mask) can offer (because Yama's reiatsu is that much stronger), otherwise Kensei would be the one who pulverized WW.

Unless Kensei is much weaker than Love, Love's shikai isn't doing any better. Neither Aizen (without KS) nor Stark had the slightest trouble against Love's shikai and Stark implied that WW was even stronger than him, IMO even Love's bankai wouldn't stand a chance against WW. Love's shikai won't be hurting WW to serious extent and he will be a goner once WW starts punching him.

Crystal Black
February 02, 2011, 01:54 PM
WW would win, without too much difficulties at that. A few others pretty much stated what I was going to say. Wonderweiss's shorter term feats simply blows Love's out of the water. One-shotting a captain(senior), freeing Halibel and Barragan somewhat with just a scream of the voice, pulverizing Mashiro's face who is excellent at hakuda , and then defeating a mask bankai captain in Kensei. Love stands no chance and he is my second favorite vizard..

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 02:00 PM
Yamamoto's double-bone is a special hand-to-hand combat technique that is apparently much stronger than anything Kensei (bankai+mask) can offer (because Yama's reiatsu is that much stronger), otherwise Kensei would be the one who pulverized WW.

Unless Kensei is much weaker than Love, Love's shikai isn't doing any better. Neither Aizen (without KS) nor Stark had the slightest trouble against Love's shikai and Stark implied that WW was even stronger than him, IMO even Love's bankai wouldn't stand a chance against WW. Love's shikai won't be hurting WW to serious extent and he will be a goner once WW starts punching him.

I agree, but given the nature of Love's Shikai, I could see his Bankai possibly having a chance to kill WW (if it follows the same trend and doesn't pull a Soi Fon). Love has always seemed like the strongest Vaizard, and with a completely power oriented Bankai (akin to Komamura or something) I would give him more of a chance.

Problem is, Shikai is Shikai. If it isn't hax, it's generally weak.

AlB
February 02, 2011, 02:08 PM
WW would win, without too much difficulties at that. A few others pretty much stated what I was going to say. Wonderweiss's shorter term feats simply blows Love's out of the water. One-shotting a captain(senior), freeing Halibel and Barragan somewhat with just a scream of the voice, pulverizing Mashiro's face who is excellent at hakuda , and then defeating a mask bankai captain in Kensei. Love stands no chance and he is my second favorite vizard..

and having higher regenration speed than Ulq and tougher Hierro than Nnoitra. and there's also pulling off an ambush on Urahara and catching Yamamoto's fist en route to Aizen's jaw from like 2 cm distance :darn

The guy is insane. Arguably the strongest arrancar. as much as I, too, like Love the poor sod stands no chance.
[hr]

I agree, but given the nature of Love's Shikai, I could see his Bankai possibly having a chance to kill WW (if it follows the same trend and doesn't pull a Soi Fon). Love has always seemed like the strongest Vaizard, and with a completely power oriented Bankai (akin to Komamura or something) I would give him more of a chance.

Problem is, Shikai is Shikai. If it isn't hax, it's generally weak.

honestly, I doubt that even Bankai would stand a chance against WW. The dude recovered in a moment's notice after being completely pulverized by Yama. so yeah, "possibly" is appropriate word here ;)

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 02:15 PM
honestly, I doubt that even Bankai would stand a chance against WW. The dude recovered in a moment's notice after being completely pulverized by Yama. so yeah, "possibly" is appropriate word here ;)

True, I don't think Kensei was lacking in the power department, and his Bankai failed to kill WW.

I do think though that with the right kind of power, it's possible, but hey, we can't use what we haven't seen. Sorry Love.

xXan
February 02, 2011, 03:15 PM
WW would win, without too much difficulties at that. A few others pretty much stated what I was going to say. Wonderweiss's shorter term feats simply blows Love's out of the water. One-shotting a captain(senior), freeing Halibel and Barragan somewhat with just a scream of the voice, pulverizing Mashiro's face who is excellent at hakuda , and then defeating a mask bankai captain in Kensei. Love stands no chance and he is my second favorite vizard..

One-shotting a captain(senior),

From behind. Let's see him do that in a real fight.

freeing Halibel and Barragan somewhat with just a scream

How exactly does this factor in this fight? His scream power (whatever it does) is irrelevant here.

pulverizing Mashiro's face who is excellent at hakuda

That was nice but nothing that impresive. No mask and she is VC level.

defeating a mask bankai captain in Kensei

Do provide the pics of that fight! I always wanted to read it.Oh, or where you refering to whatever fanfic you have in your head on how that fight whent on because that is irrelevant. Some people here already provided alternatives to that fight that makes perfect sense and they have nothing to do with Kensei losing anything so why is you version so better then thers? You only got asumtions, nothing more. Kensei trew her away like nothing and stoped her punch like nothing before he used bankai and you really whant me to belive he lost in BANKAI and with his MASK on? Yeah right.


and having higher regenration speed than Ulq and tougher Hierro than Nnoitra. and there's also pulling off an ambush on Urahara and catching Yamamoto's fist en route to Aizen's jaw from like 2 cm distance :darn

The guy is insane. Arguably the strongest arrancar. as much as I, too, like Love the poor sod stands no chance.
<hr noshade size="1">


honestly, I doubt that even Bankai would stand a chance against WW. The dude recovered in a moment's notice after being completely pulverized by Yama. so yeah, "possibly" is appropriate word here ;)

Wow i got to see scans of that. Now the scans where he was COMPLETLY pulverized.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 03:25 PM
Do provide the pics of that fight! I always wanted to read it.Oh, or where you refering to whatever fanfic you have in your head on how that fight whent on because that is irrelevant. Some people here already provided alternatives to that fight that makes perfect sense and they have nothing to do with Kensei losing anything so why is you version so better then thers? You only got asumtions, nothing more. Kensei trew her away like nothign and stoped her punch like nothing before he used bankai and you really whant me to belive he lost in BANKAI and with his MASK on? Yeah right.

You're the one writing a fanfic if you think Kensei didn't lose that fight.

-Kensei tending to Mashiro? That doesn't even make a little bit of sense. There's nothing to suggest that he has any medical training at all, and Unohana was there!

-Kensei's Bankai self destructed.....Yeah.

-Kensei whooping WW's ass, then apparently being caught off guard.

Everything I've ever heard in defense of Kensei has been rationalizing a random scenario because people DON'T want him to lose. I've yet to hear one that has made any sense at all. Kensei was obviously serious, he was obviously trying his best, and he lost.

UchihaHunter has covered this already.

AlB
February 02, 2011, 03:27 PM
Wow i got to see scans of that. Now the scans where he was COMPLETLY pulverized.


WW pulverized (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-6.html)
Yama says couple of words (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-7.html) and charges (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-8.html)
Look Who's back (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-9.html)
suit yourself ;)

xXan
February 02, 2011, 03:38 PM
WW pulverized (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-6.html)
Yama says couple of words (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-7.html) and charges (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-8.html)
Look Who's back (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-9.html)
suit yourself ;)

I am going to post you a link to what COMPLETLY means because aparently you got no idea what that word is.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complete

Now what you said there would qualify as a lie.
This right here is completly (actualy not even here because some peaces are stil visible) :
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-408-page-3.html
I don't think he is coming back ...

@Takahashi

To me it makes perfect sence. Look what happened to Ukitake. He hot 1 shoted from the back. Kensei could have pounded her into the ground and turned his back thinking he is dead but because of the insane HF WW got back up and impaled him trought the back. Now this right here is a asumtion BUT it has a much worth as your asumtion. Now up to the moment we got scans of how that fight whent on or someone stating Kensei lost all you got are asumtions.

Edit:
I want to add something to this:

Kensei whooping WW's ass, then apparently being caught off guard
Kensei whoped her ass before bankai. He was able to stop his punch like nothing and trow him away like a fly

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 03:52 PM
@Takahashi

To me it makes perfect sence. Look what happened to Ukitake. He hot 1 shoted from the back. Kensei could have pounded her into the ground and turned his back thinking he is dead but because of the insane HF WW got back up and impaled him trought the back. Now this right here is a asumtion BUT it has a much worth as your asumtion. Now up to the moment we got scans of how that fight whent on or someone stating Kensei lost all you got are asumtions.

You might want to read the arguments against before you post, UchihaHunter has addressed it.


So...instead of assuming that Kensei lost face-up to WW, we'll assume that WW cheapshotted him? We didn't see what happened, so we're going to assume that Kensei didn't lose? Again, if he didn't lose, he has no excuse for not showing up during the fight with Aizen. And if he did lose, it's entirely possible for Love to lose in whatever way he lost. I don't understand why the HSR would be enough to surprise any of the Vaizards, when they know that hollows in general have HSR, and they've already fought hybrids with HSR. So...basically, he would've had to K.O. WW for a significant period of time, then felt that he won, reverted his Bankai back to his knife, and then got Ukitake'd? Keep in mind that later on in your post, you stated that Love shouldn't be surprised by WW's HSR, but we're going to argue that Kensei was? I know that that's just an example, I'm just stating that you're going to have to come up with a better one than that as to why Kensei didn't appear later.



Edit:
I want to add something to this:

Kensei whooping WW's ass, then apparently being caught off guard
Kensei whoped her ass before bankai. He was able to stop his punch like nothing and trow him away like a fly

Courtesy of UchihaHunter AGAIN:


Yep, because sending someone flying across some buildings = being able to beat them...didn't Po send Komamura flying? But we saw how that ended, right? WW was able to intercept a punch from Yama, and sent Yama flying, but we saw how that ended as well. My point it, let's not sit here and act like him throwing WW is impressive. Even Kensei knew that he would need to use Bankai to fight sealed WW.

Gran Maestro
February 02, 2011, 04:00 PM
@ xXan,

Think about it, why did Kubo make Kensei go bankai before switching to Aizen's fight? He could leave Kensei in shikai and we would all assume WW defeated Kensei's shikai. Kubo obviously was trying to make the point that WW was strong. And xXan, I've never seen Romania in my life but I'm pretty sure it exists, use your common sense to make logical deductions. There's also the possibility that Kensei was abducted by aliens, it's up to you to choose the most logical possibility, and if the possibility that Kensei lost to WW doesn't make much sense to you then I must way our way of thinking are on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

AlB
February 02, 2011, 04:05 PM
I am going to post you a link to what COMPLETLY means because aparently you got no idea what that word is.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complete

Now what you said there would qualify as a lie.
This right here is completly (actualy not even here because some peaces are stil visible) :
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-408-page-3.html
I don't think he is coming back ...

@Takahashi

To me it makes perfect sence. Look what happened to Ukitake. He hot 1 shoted from the back. Kensei could have pounded her into the ground and turned his back thinking he is dead but because of the insane HF WW got back up and impaled him trought the back. Now this right here is a asumtion BUT it has a much worth as your asumtion. Now up to the moment we got scans of how that fight whent on or someone stating Kensei lost all you got are asumtions.

Edit:
I want to add something to this:

Kensei whooping WW's ass, then apparently being caught off guard
Kensei whoped her ass before bankai. He was able to stop his punch like nothing and trow him away like a fly

and I suggest you mind your tone. I completely forgot that I promised not to argue with you anymore. learn some manners first and don't make a fuss over a fictional crap!
[hr]

@ xXan,

Think about it, why did Kubo make Kensei go bankai before switching to Aizen's fight? He could leave Kensei in shikai and we would all assume WW defeated Kensei's shikai. Kubo obviously was trying to make the point that WW was strong. And xXan, I've never seen Romania in my life but I'm pretty sure it exists, use your common sense to make logical deductions. There's also the possibility that Kensei was abducted by aliens, it's up to you to choose the most logical possibility, and if the possibility that Kensei lost to WW doesn't make much sense to you then I must way our way of thinking are on the opposite ends of the spectrum.

:offtopic to tell the truth I always had an impression that Kubo had something mroe in store for WW up until his fight with Kensei but for some unexplained reason changed the plot in the last minute. I mean, the guy had such insane development only to be smashed in a single chapter?...

xXan
February 02, 2011, 04:06 PM
You might want to read the arguments against before you post, UchihaHunter has addressed it.



Also the very SIMPLE fact that WW would be regenerating during the fight, there is NO way Kensei was unaware of WW's HSR.




Courtesy of UchihaHunter AGAIN:

I never read his post and i should have. It makes sense what the man says there. I will drop my arguments because he made a good case. Its not 100% sure he lost the fight if we don't have any pics but i can give it a hight enough percentage after reading his post to agree with WW beating Kensei.
So yeah, i agree with you.

@AlB

That is how i usualy speak and i asure you i mean no disrespect. I pointed out you used a word that was completly out of proportion with happened in the manga. Blowing up his torso area is not completly.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 04:10 PM
I never read his post and i should have. It makes sense what the man says there. I will drop my arguments because he made a good case. Its not 100% sure he lost the fight if we don't have any pics but i can give it a hight enough percentage after reading his post to agree with WW beating Kensei.
So yeah, i agree with you.

@AlB

That is how i usualy speak and i asure you i mean no disrespect. I pointed out you used a word that was completly out of proportion with happened in the manga. Blowing up his torso area is not completly.

Fair enough. Actually, this is one of those rare times that someone has actually said the other side made a good case....

freshseth83
February 02, 2011, 07:13 PM
Put it like this, WW is at least Starrk's equal. Starrk was too much for Love AND Rose with mask! What makes you think that Love ALONE could beat Starrk, let alone WW? That's all that matters. It's called common sense.

El Samurai Guapo
February 02, 2011, 07:55 PM
Jeez. Do you really have to act like I hate the Vaizards in every thread they're in?

Yes, off panel things are generally inconsistent and not good evidence. That doesn't change the fact that we KNOW Kensei lost in some way, and considering what we saw from WW, I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume that he was just overpowered. I'm not making some wild, crazy assumption when I say that WW beat Kensei.

Right right, I'm sorry. You're rule is not to use off-panel fights as evidence...unless you somehow decide to conveniently break your own rule because it's the entire foundation for your argument. In other words, if you were to concede or disregard the whole Kensei thing, you all would have very little to go with here. Sure, your assumption that Kensei was beaten by WW isn't necessarily wild and crazy, but it's still an assumption. It isn't like there aren't other possibilities either; there are many that we can easily come up with and attribute Kensei's disappearance to—all the ones we've mentioned so far on this thread and several others. Here's another possibility just off the top of my head: Aizen himself went and took Kensei out. If the guy can switch himself with Momo in the midst of fighting multiple captains, it's far from a stretch to think he could have off-panaled Kensei as well. In fact, it makes sense to think Aizen would want to have his "trump card" (as you put it) on stand by, ready for the moment that Yamamoto pops up (which could have been anytime). Gin is another possibility. All I know is, Kubo will eventually revisit this the next time we see Kensei fight (he'll have a flashback or something that unravels what actually went down). Us here on this forum aren't the only ones that are wondering what became of Kensei, and despite what Random101 thinks Kubo's not that dumb or forgetful, it'll eventually be explained. Bleach is supposed to go on for another decade, it wouldn't make sense that Kensei would have gone all out and lost to a character that is probably a lot weaker and insignificant next to the following slew of new bad guys (you know, the ones we'll undoubtedly see the remaining unrevealed bankais used against). If Kensei's bankai was already defeated then he serves no purpose really.



Wait what?

There is nothing to suggest that Kensei DIDN'T lose. Is it really that hard to believe that Aizen's trump card could beat a Vaizard?

I'd say he was more of a fail-safe than a trump card. WW's only purpose was to ensure Ryuujin Jakka's flames wouldn't create problems.



Yes, the concept is cool, but generally all abilities are aesthetically appealing, doesn't mean they're super strong. Comparability is impossible with regards to WW. Kensei used that Kamehameha against HSR Ichigo. Granted, he was obviously holding back as he didn't want to kill Ichigo, but it did nothing anyway. So we can't take anything from it in regards to power or effectiveness against an HSR opponent.

Did you not see the part where it blew bankai Ichigo's arm off? I'm pretty sure he aimed it at his arm intentionally (knowing the hollow was capable of HSR); had he fired it at Ichigo's chest he may have died. Keep in mind that attack would also be even more powerful with this mask on. Now keep in mind that his bankai is 5-10x stronger.

The point is the entire basis for your entire case against Love is an unknown factor.



No, because if Hitsugaya got off paneled by someone in perfect condition, it's not a ridiculous assumption that they are on a higher level than most captains. I would say any captain should be wary if another captain was off paneled (with the exception of Ukitake, we don't know WTF is going on with him and his illness).

He only showed up in perfect condition because he could regenerate...duh. Are you now saying he beat Kensei without even taking any damage?


You and Jackk need to realize this isn't Vaizard hate, but that WW is just that strong (or rather, we genuinely believe he is, nothing is 100%). If he went up against my favorite character (Byakuya) I'd vote for WW in a second.

I can see this particular thread not being vaizard hate, but there is a lot of it on this forum.



He hit Stark dead on with that giant spike covered club, yet we didn't see any significant damage whatsoever. No, it wasn't his strongest attack, but if even your standard smash of the club did essentially nothing, it's not a good sign when you're fighting a guy who can regenerate.

Just because that particular hit did nothing doesn't really mean much. Arrancar have hierro, and that apparently takes some getting used to. That being said, Starrk was shaken up by the hit.




I think he could. Although I don't like the mindfuck chapters, we saw Aizen one shotting captain levels, and then admitting that Yamamoto was actually quite a lot stronger in a fair fight. Quite an endorsement for his strength. Kubo made a point of stripping everything from the CC, and making him still have one of the most impressive ass kickings in the manga.

He didn't say that. He said if he went up against him he may lose. Show me where Aizen admitted Yamamoto was "quite a lot stronger." Aizen also commented on Ryuujin Jakka's power, not Yamamoto's own physical strength.


There was no lasting damage, so it doesn't matter a whole lot if he got a face full of feet a couple times. (although I still think Mashiro was pretty impressive in that fight....For a while)

Then was no lasting damage cause the kid could regen, but the point is she could overpower him even with her level of strength. Mashiro does not strike me as someone with a large amount of power at all. I think the strength behind her attacks were the mask's doing. Love on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than her without his mask or zanpakutou. With it, and his shikai and you're looking at several times the power that Mashiro used to knock WW around.


So, targeting the head is now the end all win for someone who can regenerate? That's a pretty loose and oversimplified reasoning. Love has a head too, who's to say WW couldn't just Gatling punch the hell out of Love's head then? He'll, he's got enough arms to punch 20 people in the face at once....

I'm sure Love would get punched it the head, but I also think he could tear the kids arms off with his bare hands as well. I also don't see a reason why his tanking skills would be so far below Yamamoto's. I think the spirit wolves from Starrk were deadlier attacks than WW's fists.



Stark's Hierro was never even mentioned as far as I know, so how can we compare it at all? Hell, the BEST Hierro belongs to number 5. If the guy in the middle can have the best, why would you assume that number 1 has a better version than someone else?

Well originally I was just trying to point out that Starrk receiving no visible damage from Love hitting him was a poor argument to defend WW with since Starrk's hierro may have been superior. If it were to try and rationalize it though, I could two ways. First of all, yeah, Nnoitora was #5 and he had the best hierro, but that seemed to be because it was an attribute he evolved to specialize in. For the rest of the espada—each of which had different specializations other non-hierro—hierro strength could have been more or less parallel to rank. It makes sense when you conider the higher ranked had higher reiatsu; also Yammi had the second highest according to the DB so Starrk could have been #3. A better argument though would be WW's design and his lack of abilities other than extinguishing Ryuukin Jakka's flames; he was the most specialized out of all the arrancar, so he likely lacked any notable defense. I don't think Mashiro would have been able to knock Starrk around the way she did WW. And NO, I don't think WW was Starrk's equal. Starrk was way more hax, smarter, and faster than WW; both cero metralleta and the wolves were way better anything WW displayed. Honestly, I'd have a hard time believing WW was even as good as Harribel or Ulquoirra. I don't think Yamamoto would have defeated any of the top 4 as easily while unarmed either.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 08:31 PM
@El Samurai Guapo

All I see is you accusing anyone who doesn't vote for the ones you want are all underestimating and hating on the Vaizards. Feel free to believe whatever scenario you want that doesn't allow a Vaizard to lose a fight, because god forbid that could ever happen.

I don't need Kensei's loss as a reason to vote for WW. He displayed absolutely insane speed that intercepted the CC's punch when it was an inch away from Aizen's face! He regenerated any damage that Kensei did to him, and continued to even after Yamamoto's dismembering and blunt trauma. He didn't stop until he finally got ground into a fine powder. He hits fast, hits hard, has plenty of appendages to overwhelm his opponent, and to top it off, he's the closest thing to an indestructible Arrancar that we've ever seen, and probably ever will.

Apparently that's not even remotely impressive to you, as you believe Shikai Kensei would have been sufficient to kill WW. Because of that, I don't see much of a point in continuing this, we clearly won't come to an agreement here.

Raizen
February 02, 2011, 08:44 PM
I don't understand how fans can read a manga and yet a t teh same time disregard what the author is trying to portray because it doesn't fit with them. This is HIS manga, we are just reading it. He decides who wins and who lose. If u start nitpicking at every details and omit the ones u don't like, u ruin the story. Its just sad

Kensei has shown absolutely nothing that puts him on the same level as the beast that is WW.

El Samurai Guapo
February 02, 2011, 08:59 PM
@El Samurai Guapo

All I see is you accusing anyone who doesn't vote for the ones you want are all underestimating and hating on the Vaizards. Feel free to believe whatever scenario you want that doesn't allow a Vaizard to lose a fight, because god forbid that could ever happen.

Really, that's all you see? Are you even reading my posts? Did I not just outright state above that the people favoring Wonderwiess in this thread probably aren't vaizard haters? I don't have a problem admitting a vaizard could lose a fight, when I see it happen.
Example, Mashiro clearly lost to Wonderwiess; I have no problem admitting that.


I don't need Kensei's loss as a reason to vote for WW. He displayed absolutely insane speed that intercepted the CC's punch when it was an inch away from Aizen's face!

Honestly I don't find that to be so impressive. Yamamoto shunpo'd in front of Aizen, kneeled in front of him, and tried to uppercut him. All WW did was jump in and take the hit. If that's impressive then why wasn't it impressive when Kensei caught Mashiro and intercepted WW's fist?


He regenerated any damage that Kensei did to him, and continued to even after Yamamoto's dismembering and blunt trauma. He didn't stop until he finally got ground into a fine powder. He hits fast, hits hard, has plenty of appendages to overwhelm his opponent, and to top it off, he's the closest thing to an indestructible Arrancar that we've ever seen, and probably ever will.

- He didn't get ground into fine poweder, he just got hit hard enough that his body broke apart and couldn't regenerate from it. I'm arguing that Love could do the same.

- He may hit hard and fast but they are just punches after all. Compared to abilities like cero oscuras, respira, cascada, and the wolves, I didn't find WW's punches all too impressive by top ranking arrancar standards.

Perhaps the biggest difference between us is how powerful we rank Yamamoto. I think he's definitely stronger than the rest of the Gotei 13, but I don't believe it's like a captain/vc level margin. He's the strongest out of the 13 captains, that's all.



Apparently that's not even remotely impressive to you, as you believe Shikai Kensei would have been sufficient to kill WW. Because of that, I don't see much of a point in continuing this, we clearly won't come to an agreement here.

It was somewhat impressive, but I honestly would rank WW somewhere around the level of Grimmjow. In fact, Grimmjow puts up a better fight against Yamamoto because he doesn't just stupidly stand there saying "Ohhh Ohaaa Aahhhhhhh" (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-18.html) and let himself get punched.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 09:40 PM
Really, that's all you see? Are you even reading my posts? Did I not just outright state above that the people favoring Wonderwiess in this thread probably aren't vaizard haters? I don't have a problem admitting a vaizard could lose a fight, when I see it happen.
Example, Mashiro clearly lost to Wonderwiess; I have no problem admitting that.

It's a very recurring theme at the very least, and it doesn't help when you've got a comment to make about me having a bias nearly every time we're in a Vaizard topic. It just confuses me that you can't believe that Kensei could actually lose a fight. It's very heavily implied that he did.



Honestly I don't find that to be so impressive. Yamamoto shunpo'd in front of Aizen, kneeled in front of him, and tried to uppercut him. All WW did was jump in and take the hit. If that's impressive then why wasn't it impressive when Kensei caught Mashiro and intercepted WW's fist?

Because Yama is Yama, and getting in between him and his opponent in such a small area is far more impressive, at least to me.



He didn't get ground into fine poweder, he just got hit hard enough that his body broke apart and couldn't regenerate from it. I'm arguing that Love could do the same. He may hit hard and fast but they are just punches after all. Compared to abilities like cero oscuras, respira, cascada, and the wolves, I didn't find WW's punches all too impressive by top ranking arrancar standards.

I didn't mean literal powder, I was just being wordy.


Perhaps the biggest difference between us is how powerful we rank Yamamoto. I think he's definitely stronger than the rest of the Gotei 13, but I don't believe it's like a captain/vc level margin. He's the strongest out of the 13 captains, that's all.

Aizen cut down how many high level opponents? To which Yama said "you really think you can cut me down with only that much power?". I will admit it may have been bait to get Aizen to stab him, but I think Kubo's made it pretty clear that Yamamoto is well above everyone else. If the gap between a VC/Captain isn't the way captains are with Yama, then that means that Kenpachi, or Komamura, or anyone with power should be able to destroy WW, or at least come close, even if barehanded, which I doubt.




It was somewhat impressive, but I honestly would rank WW somewhere around the level of Grimmjow. In fact, Grimmjow puts up a better fight against Yamamoto because he doesn't just stupidly stand there saying "Ohhh Ohaaa Aahhhhhhh" (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-18.html) and let himself get punched. S

Well, I disagree to a ridiculous level on that one.

Raizen
February 02, 2011, 09:50 PM
WW around grimjow's level... WOW LOL

Yamamoto is without a doubt the most powerful character we have seen. WW being capable of surviving against him, despite the fact that he's barehanded, is a testament of his strength.

If we were to put kensei vs yamamoto, yama would anihilate kensei so fast it would be ridiculous. And that is without his zanpaktou

Sodalit
February 02, 2011, 10:16 PM
I don't like both characters, but I admire the fact that Wonder was able to fight somehow with Yamamoto.

Wonder for the win.

Raizen
February 02, 2011, 10:25 PM
Exactly! people seem to think that if u hate someone, u will vote for someone else. It is not that. It is just that the other has shown much greater skills and powers.

It is not hate... it is about being realistic and taking the manga as is

UchihaHunter
February 03, 2011, 08:54 AM
Honestly, I can't believe that Raizen and Takahashi have attempted to keep debating this after Samurai said that WW is around Grimmjow level AND that the gap between Yamamoto and the other captains isn't on the same scale as captains vs. VCs...

How can you even type that? I'm done with this topic; I hope that people that are voting see that post and wonder "wtf am I reading here"

exacta
February 03, 2011, 12:40 PM
WW was able to beat a Bankai Kensei. The fight was off screen, so he may have been able to use his mask too. And we don't even know if WW released for that fight. If he can beat Kensei, he can probably beat Love, and most other captains/vizards.

El Samurai Guapo
February 03, 2011, 06:07 PM
It's a very recurring theme at the very least, and it doesn't help when you've got a comment to make about me having a bias nearly every time we're in a Vaizard topic. It just confuses me that you can't believe that Kensei could actually lose a fight. It's very heavily implied that he did.

Lies, I don't say you have a bias in every vaizard topic. In fact I honestly don't believe that's the case. Do I think you underestimate them? Sure. There are three to four on this forum, who shall remain nameless, that I would call biased though.


Because Yama is Yama, and getting in between him and his opponent in such a small area is far more impressive, at least to me.

Okay, all he did was jump in front of a punch. For all we know he could have already been very close by when Yamamoto landed in front of Aizen. It's not like we know he came from a far distance starting from the moment Yamamoto began to swing his fist.


Aizen cut down how many high level opponents? To which Yama said "you really think you can cut me down with only that much power?". I will admit it may have been bait to get Aizen to stab him, but I think Kubo's made it pretty clear that Yamamoto is well above everyone else.

I agree that it was simply Yamamoto goading Aizen. Didn't he repeat the same thing when he was on the ground after taking his own explosion and grabbed Aizen's leg? The old man seems kind of conceited to me.


If the gap between a VC/Captain isn't the way captains are with Yama, then that means that Kenpachi, or Komamura, or anyone with power should be able to destroy WW, or at least come close, even if barehanded, which I doubt.

Let's put it this way, Shunsui and Juushirou together could stand against Yamamoto for a while. Do you think two VCs working together would fare as well against a captain? If so, you must believe that Rangiku + Iba together could fight on par with Byakuya or Toushirou for a while.

And yeah, I think a lot of the captains could have beaten WW, not just Love. Maybe not unarmed, but with their bankais, certainly. Some probably could in shikai (e.g. Soi Fon/Shunsui). That's what the difference between Yamamoto and the other captains is IMO. He can do unarmed what they require their zanpakutous for. In other words he's a level above them. To say that he's stronger unarmed than they are with their zanpakutous or bankais is grossly overrating him though, and basically saying he's multiple levels above them.

WW certainly didn't display better feats than the top 4 espada; I also think they would have destroyed him too.



Well, I disagree to a ridiculous level on that one.

Well that's about all you can do really. Despite how ridiculous UchihaHunter may think it is, WW didn't show anything that confirmed he was stronger than the top espada, or even a middle-ranked one like Grimmjow. His only confirmed feats were: putting his hand through the chest of a sick captain, getting kicked around by Mashiro, and standing like a retard and letting himself get punched to death by Yamamoto. Yes, I think Grimmjow would have fared much better against unarmed Yamamoto than WW. Grimmjow was fast, had strong hierro, had a wide array of attacks, was more explosive and had more power. With one paw swipe he knocked Bankai vaizard Ichigo through like three of those red towers. WW punched Yamamoto like 9082230843204823084 times and did little more than bruise him. Most importantly though Grimmjow wasn't completely stupid.

Likewise I don't believe that WW would have given Ichigo as hard of a time as Grimmjow gave him.


How can you even type that?

That's exactly what I ask myself when I see people claim Wonderwiess was the strongest arrancar, or that he was better than Starrk.

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 06:25 PM
Lies, I don't say you have a bias in every vaizard topic. In fact I honestly don't believe that's the case. Do I think you underestimate them? Sure. There are three to four on this forum, who shall remain nameless, that I would call biased though.

Would that not be the same? If you think I always underestimate them, that would imply that I'd be rooting for the other guy right from the get-go.





Okay, all he did was jump in front of a punch. For all we know he could have already been very close by when Yamamoto landed in front of Aizen. It's not like we know he came from a far distance starting from the moment Yamamoto began to swing his fist.

There was a panel showing how close Yama's fist was to Aizen. It was clearly emphasized that WW is fast to be able to get in there and take the hit.




I agree that it was simply Yamamoto goading Aizen. Didn't he repeat the same thing when he was on the ground after taking his own explosion and grabbed Aizen's leg? The old man seems kind of conceited to me.

Actually, now that I think about it, Yama lived after taking the explosion from a technique that was supposed to kill both him, Aizen, and basically every one else in the area. Yet you think him and the Captains are not akin to a Captain vs VC's?




Let's put it this way, Shunsui and Juushirou together could stand against Yamamoto for a while. Do you think two VCs working together would fare as well against a captain? If so, you must believe that Rangiku + Iba together could fight on par with Byakuya or Toushirou for a while.

Look again, when we see the outcome of the "fight" Shunsui and Ukitake have injuries, Yamamoto doesn't have a scratch. Obviously Yama was not trying his hardest to kill them, at best he was just punishing them.


And yeah, I think a lot of the captains could have beaten WW, not just Love. Maybe not unarmed, but with their bankais, certainly. Some probably could in shikai (e.g. Soi Fon/Shunsui). That's what the difference between Yamamoto and the other captains is IMO. He can do unarmed what they require their zanpakutous for. In other words he's a level above them. To say that he's stronger unarmed than they are with their zanpakutous or bankais is grossly overrating him though, and basically saying he's multiple levels above them.

The word overrated is subjective in the first place. The people that say Yamamoto is many times better than the captains has as much merit as you that say he's not that much better. People say Halo is overrated, it's my favorite game, no one can PROVE something based on opinion.



WW certainly didn't display better feats than the top 4 espada; I also think they would have destroyed him too.

I don't think any of the 4 Espada would have lasted half as long against the CC as WW did. His HSR is no joke.




Well that's about all you can do really. Despite how ridiculous UchihaHunter may think it is, WW didn't show anything that confirmed he was stronger than the top espada, or even a middle-ranked one like Grimmjow. His only confirmed feats were: putting his hand through the chest of a sick captain, getting kicked around by Mashiro, and standing like a retard and letting himself get punched to death by Yamamoto. Yes, I think Grimmjow would have fared much better against unarmed Yamamoto than WW.

That's all I can do? Yeah, about the same thing you can. Although it would help us come to an agreement if you wouldn't say something so ridiculous.



Grimmjow was fast, had strong hierro, had a wide array of attacks, was more explosive and had more power.

Yeah, that'll help against the CC. There's no doubt in my mind that Grimmjow would be dead on the first hit.


With one paw swipe he knocked Bankai vaizard Ichigo through like three of those red towers. WW punched Yamamoto like 9082230843204823084 times and did little more than bruise him. Most importantly though Grimmjow wasn't completely stupid.

So now we're making knocking around Ichigo a more impressive feat than going toe to toe with the CC and actually overwhelming him for a few seconds? Please.

I'm not going to discuss the WW is weaker than Grimmjow theory any more, clearly no one can change your mind anyway.

El Samurai Guapo
February 03, 2011, 06:56 PM
Would that not be the same? If you think I always underestimate them, that would imply that I'd be rooting for the other guy right from the get-go.

Not really, underestimating them just means you don't think they're are strong as they really are. Having a bias against them means you would purposely favor the other side even if logically the vaizard should win.



There was a panel showing how close Yama's fist was to Aizen. It was clearly emphasized that WW is fast to be able to get in there and take the hit.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c394/8.html

You're referring to the that? Yeah clearly he was in mid-swing when WW jumped in and took the hit, and sure it was a small window of time, but this is bleach—where people can dodge an attack a centimeter away from their eyeball. All in all it's far from enough to say he was remotely as fast as Starrk.



Actually, now that I think about it, Yama lived after taking the explosion from a technique that was supposed to kill both him, Aizen, and basically every one else in the area. Yet you think him and the Captains are not akin to a Captain vs VC's?

Well I personally believe (and have argued) that the attack was not completed when WW absorbed all the flames. Those pillars probably all had to combine together or something before the attack was finished.



Look again, when we see the outcome of the "fight" Shunsui and Ukitake have injuries, Yamamoto doesn't have a scratch. Obviously Yama was not trying his hardest to kill them, at best he was just punishing them.

Of course he wasn't trying his hardest, but neither were Shunsui and Juushirou, otherwise they would have been in bankai. If a captain was trying to punish two VCs, it would happen almost instantaneously, and you'd see the two knocked unconscious in a few moments.


The word overrated is subjective in the first place. The people that say Yamamoto is many times better than the captains has as much merit as you that say he's not that much better. People say Halo is overrated, it's my favorite game, no one can PROVE something based on opinion.

Not really, he hasn't displayed at all that he's "many times better" than the captains, hence those that claim he is are overrating him. There's no reason to think of him that way other than fan hype. If there's no basis for the claim it's objectively wrong.



I don't think any of the 4 Espada would have lasted half as long against the CC as WW did. His HSR is no joke.

And respira, the wolves, cero orscuras/lanza del relampago, all of Harribel's water attacks, etc. were jokes? HSR was his only good trait, he lacked any other abilities or intelligence. I don't see how an arrancar who's only purpose was to seal Yamamoto's flames could also be superior in combat to the top ranked espada. WW was created and specialized to do one thing, that's why he even lacked intelligence.


Yeah, that'll help against the CC. There's no doubt in my mind that Grimmjow would be dead on the first hit.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think he would get hit as easily in the first place though. Starrk and the like definitely wouldn't.



So now we're making knocking around Ichigo a more impressive feat than going toe to toe with the CC and actually overwhelming him for a few seconds? Please.

Please? That's my line, he did NOT go toe-to-toe with Yamamoto. Two hits was all it took for Yamamoto to kill him, and Yamamoto was completely unimpressed by the thousands of punches he took from him. Yamamoto just underestimated him a bit; had he hit him with twin bone from the start it would have been over instantaneously. I'm pretty sure allowed himself to be punched so many times, he was able to rip WW's arms off so he could have gotten out of that attack sooner if he wanted to. (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c394/16.html) Keep in mind this was also after the guy had a hole put in him by Aizen.

Lunatic Scream
February 04, 2011, 05:12 PM
Eh, this really comes down to two factors:
1. Whether you believe he defeated bankai Kensei.
2. Whether you believe his nullification ability applies to more than just Ryukin Jakka.

I don't believe in 2, but... I do believe 1. So it all comes down to a bunch of small questions. Is the Vizard mask a bigger power boost than Bankai? Is Love stronger than Kensei?

There's no definitive answer to most of this (as is customary in Bleach), but given how handily WW defeated Kensei (and there are very few reasons that Kensei would be out of the arc after that point otherwise. Gin is unaccounted for during this time, but there's even less evidence that he had a hand in Kensei's defeat than WW!) I am gonna have to give this one to WW. It appears that he defeated Kensei without even having a "main ability" per say... because estinguir was pretty much stated to only work on Yama.

Jackk
February 05, 2011, 10:22 PM
So Kensei just stayed out of the way the entire rest of the fight?

It's a possibility. The exact reasons are unknown, but there could be several possible reasons for that too.


Seriously, if he didn't lose to WW, then he's pretty much the most cowardly Captain we've ever seen.

Not necessarily. Kensei said that he wasn't going to avenge Mashiro, and he said that he was only going to give the kid "a taste of his fist." It's possible that after giving WW a beating, WW used his resurreccion and then quickly went to where Yama was to stop his fire, and Kensei let him go not wanting to get in the way of Yama's EJ. And then Kensei went to take care of Mashiro who was really injured. Mind I'm not claiming that this is what necessarily happened, but again, we saw nothing between them after Kensei went Bankai...and we didn't even see Kensei nor Mashiro after the war. Therefore people can't even claim that he was seen severely injured or something. There's several possibilities as to what actually did happen and several possible reasons for Kensei not going to fight Aizen, it's all just assumptions in the end.


Just because you can't see WW being Bankai Kensei or Bankai + Mask Kensei, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

Just because you can see WW beating Bankai Kensei or Bankai + Mask Kensei, doesn't mean that it did happen. Specially considering the fact that we saw absolutely nothing of that fight after Kensei went Bankai, and we weren't even shown or told anything regarding Kensei after the war either.


Considering what we know of Kensei's personality, it doesn't fit his personality to avoid the entire rest of the fight. They were still in FKT...so they couldn't have been that far away. And what, after WW negated Ryuujin Jakka, Kensei didn't even think of fighting at least Gin? At least Ichigo was watching the fight for an opportunity; what is Kensei's excuse? Lol, knowing you guys, it'll be that Kensei was under KS and didn't know that the fight was going on.

Actually, it's interesting that you bring Gin to the equation here. What was Gin doing at the time? Umm...

I know we saw him at some point just standing there and he gave a speech about Aizen, but there were a lot of instances in which Gin was no where to be seen. Heck even Aizen questioned Gin about it, to which Gin just says that he didn't find an opening or necessity to come to Aizen's aid http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-411-page-15.html

As for Kensei, I'm not going to claim that he didn't know what was going on;however, Aizen's KS is still relevant in the sense that it was still very dangerous to approach him without some form of proper back up or plan. Even Shinji made note of that fact and told his comrades not to approach him nor fall for his provocations. Shinji said that he wouldn't be too quick to go near him; Shinji even said that with Aizen's ability, if you go near him without a plan in mind...you'll be done before you begin.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page006.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page007.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page009.html

Having the above in mind, suddenly even the idea of Kensei actually being wise for not charging in towards Aizen without a proper plan seems plausible. I'll even go as far as claim that if Kensei thought that it wasn't the right time to approach Aizen because it would just get him killed if he has no sort of proper plan, and considering the fact that he left injured Mashiro in some building (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-377/page003.html) for a moment... it's not completely unreasonable for Kensei to have decided to stay back for now and check back on Mashiro. Mind I'm still NOT saying that that is what Kensei did;however, it's still one of the various possible scenarios.


So...since we didn't see what happened, we should automatically assume the best for Kensei?

So...since we didn't see what happened, we should automatically assume the worst for Kensei?


At the VERY least, he didn't damage WW to the point that he couldn't get to Aizen and Yama.

Perhaps Kensei beat sealed WW, but then WW was able use his resurreccion and flew off to where Yama and Aizen were as soon as he detected Yama's fire; the sole purpose of WW was to seal Yama's fire after all. And we know that releasing heals an arrancar, so that could explain why WW had no injuries when he went to where Yama was. Well that..and/or released WW's high speed regeneration could have certainly healed him too, so yeah. It doesn't necessarily mean that Kensei failed to give the kid "a taste of his fist" when they fought.


Didn't a ton of things happen between WW vs. Kensei and Aizen vs. Yama? Such as the trashing of the Captains and the Vaizards? And Kensei spent the entire time tending to Mashiro? That takes more than a willing suspension of disbelief, especially considering that Unohana came later, and he still didn't attempt to get involved.

-Aizen beat the battle worn captains and vaizards using his KS's complete hypnosis.

-Kensei was busy with WW when the others were facing Aizen. We can easily deduce this from the fact that right after that scene where Kensei yells "Bankai" ...we saw Shinji and the others facing Aizen. Therefore, no...Kensei wasn't tending to Mashiro during that time; Kensei was giving WW a taste of his fist, until we later saw WW appear before Yama and Aizen in order to seal Yama's fire. Kensei's fate is unknown.

-Unohana was busy helping others; she can only do so much at once. And wasn't Unohana busy fixing Hiyori who was actually cut in half? Mind I'm not claiming that Kensei had healing abilities, but he could still look over Mashiro and do something to help her maybe.

-Again, getting close to Aizen without a plan is basically suicidal according to Shinji. Therefore, Kensei needed an opening and some sort of proper plan. There's still the possibility of Kensei losing to something somehow too... I have not dismissed that;however, I can't buy the notion of Kensei, an experience vaizard captain, going all out with Bankai + Mask and getting easily defeated by WW. Seriously, it's not for certain if he was defeated, and if he was... then it's not known HOW he was defeated. Virtually different things could have happened.

-El Samurai Guapo also brought up other possible scenarios in his post, and he could be right. Seriously, would it be such a stretch to believe that Gin may have stabbed the guy in the back or something? ..Gin did attack Hiyori from behind when she went after Aizen after all. Further, even Aizen going and taking out Kensei himself so that WW will be freed up and on standby is another possibility that was already brought up. If Aizen can switch himself with Momo while fighting multiple captains, then surely it's possible that he could have sneaked off at any moment and taken Kensei out. And I agree with El Samurai Guapo in that it actually does make sense that Aizen could think about doing that, rather than leave it up to chance that WW would defeat Kensei in time to extinguish Yama's flames. Remember that Aizen needed WW in order to seal Yama's zanpakutou; WW was extremely important to Aizen.

-Keep in mind, I'm STILL not claiming that the above is what really happened; those are certainly assumptions just as saying that Kensei went all out and easily lost to WW is also an assumption. Fact is, we really don't know what actually happened or how it happened. Seriously, even Yami was at least shown defeated in Hueco Mundo, and Kenpachi and Byakuya were shown arriving victorious in SS. Yet Kubo has yet to comment on Kensei's fate. If there is one off-panel scene that we shouldn't use as a base for our arguments it should be Kensei's fight with WW; only assumptions can be made. Heck if it was at least stated somewhere by some character in the manga that Kensei lost...then yeah, it would still be fine to claim that he lost even if we didn't see the fight;however, nothing was ever shown nor mentioned about Kensei after he went Bankai. He hasn't even been shown after the war either.


Yep, because sending someone flying across some buildings = being able to beat them...didn't Po send Komamura flying? But we saw how that ended, right? WW was able to intercept a punch from Yama, and sent Yama flying, but we saw how that ended as well. My point it, let's not sit here and act like him throwing WW is impressive.

-Nobody said sending someone flying across some buildings = being able to beat them;however, from what we actually saw...it certainly didn't seem like Kensei was losing, and that's all I wanted to suggest when I brought up sealed Kensei easily intercepting WW's punch and tossing him down across some buildings. See, since we didn't actually see sealed WW putting up a fight at all against Kensei, it should be obvious that Kensei had the upper hand. You're implying that WW could have tossed Kensei around too, but sealed WW never showed that he could do that to sealed Kensei. Furthermore, yes resurreccion gives the arrancar quite a boost, but it cannot possibly be more than the boost Kensei would get with Bankai and then even Mask. It just makes no sense for Kensei to have lost in a straight fight where he's going all out; sealed Kensei was already handling the kid in his sealed state. That's why I can't buy the notion of Bankai Kensei losing, and since we really don't know what actually happened, all we have is assumptions. I've already presented several other scenarios in which Kensei could have still not lost to the kid, or lost somehow...but not necessarily because he was weaker; he could have been cheap-shotted or something--yes, it's a possibility.

-Poww was pretty big and apparently had the strength to do what he did to Koma (though I also think Koma was taken off guard that time);however, sealed Koma also sent Poww flying with a punch...and sealed Koma also intercepted an attack from released Poww, grabbed the arrancar and tossed him aside, then Koma went Bankai to finish the guy in one hit; it's obviously that Koma was definitely superior as he actually demonstrated his superiority. Now, Wonderweiss did NOT demonstrate his superiority against Kensei because, again, we didn't see what happened to Kensei after he went Bankai. And from what we did see, Kensei, in his sealed state, did have the upper-hand against sealed WW.

-WW did not intercept a punch from Yama in the same way that sealed Kensei while carrying Mashiro with one hand intercepted and actually caught with his other hand a punch from WW and then sent the poor kid flying down across some buildings. What WW did Vs Yama was just get in between Yama and Aizen, and he was severally hurt...then Yama just backed off. WW did NOT stop Yama's punch with his hand and he definitely did NOT send Yama flying after getting in between Yama and Aizen. Seriously, WW was not that strong... Yama clearly showed his superiority; WW was absolutely no match at all for the old man. Yama only underestimated WW's regeneration at first, but then all it took was a good hit with both of his arms and the poor kid was done for.


Even Kensei knew that he would need to use Bankai to fight sealed WW.

No, that's only your opinion, and I disagree. Kensei never said that he needed Bankai, and as I showed...sealed Kensei actually had the upper hand against sealed WW as Kensei was capable of easily tossing the kid around. Yes, he went Bankai, but he even said that he wasn't going to avenge Mashiro; he just wanted to show the kid a taste of his fist. Heck Komamura didn't actually need Bankai to beat Poww, a fraccion, but Koma used it to beat the guy quickly with one hit. I'm sure Koma could have beaten the fraccion without Bankai, but I guess not as quickly as he did with his Bankai, but who knows. In addition, I'm pretty sure that Koma also wanted to show some of his true power to that arrogant fraccion who even went as far as calling Koma a worm and was making fun of him.

Having the above in mind, it's possible that Kensei sent the kid flying and knocked him down with a move with his Bankai, then he thought that the kid was not going to be capable of continuing the fight. Then Kensei went to check back on Mashiro, and WW comes back after being healed with his resurrection and/or his HSR, and cheap-shots Kensei in the back when he was off-guard. Again, not saying that that is what happened exactly, but it's certainly a possibility.

Another example besides Komamura... would be Ulquiorra. Do you really think Ulquiorra really needed to use his second release state to beat Ichigo? I don't think so, considering the fact that Ulquiorra, in his first release state, was already beating vizard Ichigo. Ulquiorra just used his second release state because he wanted to show Ichigo some of his true power, and the real difference between their powers. Therefore, it's not impossible for Kensei to have gone Bankai just to show WW some of his true power. I mean, Kensei even said that he was only going to show the kid "a taste of his fist."


So...instead of assuming that Kensei lost face-up to WW, we'll assume that WW cheapshotted him?

It's a possibility. And they're all assumptions, which is my point exactly.


We didn't see what happened, so we're going to assume that Kensei didn't lose?

Again, it's another possibility. What I really think is more appropriate is to NOT assume anything about that fight since we know nothing about it, as in: we didn't actually saw what happened to Kensei.


So...basically, he would've had to K.O. WW for a significant period of time, then felt that he won, reverted his Bankai back to his knife, and then got Ukitake'd?

That's a possible scenario. See? Even you can come up with possible scenarios that don't really have WW overpowering Bankai Kensei.

Also, you do not even need to necessarily K.O. a person for a significant period of time to feel that you have won a particular fight. As I mentioned already, perhaps Bankai Kensei hit the kid and sent him flying and then thought that the kid was done. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Kensei went all out either...but he probably still thought that WW was hit hard enough that he was at least not capable of continuing the fight. Then, Kensei could have lowered his guard (possibly reverting to base state thinking he's done), then WW comes back from behind (his HSR could have healed him) and hits Kensei from behind...


Keep in mind that later on in your post, you stated that Love shouldn't be surprised by WW's HSR, but we're going to argue that Kensei was?

When did I state that I was arguing that Kensei was surprised by WW's HSR? (although he could be surprised by it at first, then he would have to be more cautious since the concept of HSR is not new to him) Anyway, what I argue in Kensei's defense is that it's a possibility that Kensei knocked the kid and then thought that he was done and turned his back on the kid... not knowing that WW actually had high-speed regeneration.


Was WW serious in that fight? It didn't really seem like it. Mashiro was beating him up, but she wasn't damaging him. So basically, it didn't matter at all.

Huh? WW is now capable of "getting serious" ? ...since when? The poor kid completely lacks reasoning capabilities (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-394/page002.html) as per Aizen's on words, thus WW must logically fight instinctively. I don't think he can actually get serious and fight differently, well...other than releasing his resurreccion, of course...though I bet he must do that instinctively as well. Nevertheless, the point is that Masked Mashiro with her bare hands still had the upper hand against sealed WW. The kid couldn't do anything to damage Masked Mashiro, and Kensei should certainly be stronger than Mashiro...


So now we're assuming that Love + Shikai + Mask is going to be more powerful than a killing technique from Yamamoto?

Uh... what? I think you're seriously exaggerating here. Why do you use such words to make Yama even more impressive than he already is? lol... you make it sound like Yama beat the kid with a powerful technique from his Zanpakutou. You know, Yama only used his bare hands to beat WW; Yama was actually so much stronger than WW...it's not even funny. Yama could have taken the kid out with one attack from the start had he really wanted to.... Yama just underestimated the kid at first by not taking into account his HSR;however, WW gave no real problems to Yama at all when they fought.

Seriously, you guys act as if WW was actually a match for Yama; WW was really no match for Yama. WW could not do anything to hurt the old man, considering that all of WWs attempts to hurt the old man were completely ineffective. See, you might have had more of a point had WW actually hurt Yama, but that didn't happen... since we saw that WW was no match at all. Not to mention that Yama used his bare hands only. Therefore, how can people claim so easily and with such certainty that Bankai + Mask Kensei easily lost by getting overpowered by WW? Sorry, but it really makes no sense to me.


Considering that Shikai + Mask for Love didn't enable him to defeat Stark, I doubt that it would take out released WW.

Well Love with just Shikai actually had the upper hand against released Stark at first (before Stark brought out the wolves) since his ceros were completely useless when tried against Love's shikai; Tengumaru really does provide some really good defense. Stark's wolves are too hax though...they kept reforming when you hit them, then attacked you in groups and made huge explosions after biting you. Heck even after receiving quite a bit of punishment from stark's wolves, Love still didn't go down though! Their fight got interrupted by Shunsui....


Lol, so let's just argue that whoever gets hit in the head with a significant technique first will lose ;-)

Fair enough, and I will argue that Love could manage to get the hit in wondy's head first...you know, seeing as the kid is NOT going to be making any complex tactics or anything of the sort...considering he completely lacks reasoning capabilities, while Love is actually a pretty smart fighter. And I'm serious, the level of intelligence of the fighters should be considered here as well.

And yeah, if Love gets a good hit in on Wondy's head... he would be gone since there's no way that WW is going to regenerate his head or his brain if it's really damaged.


...I don't think WW is going to sit there and leave his head out there to get wacked...

Why not? ...You know, the poor kid completely lacks reasoning capabilities.

There are times in which the kid literally just stands there for some time and going: "Aaaaahhh" http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-394/page011.html

And the following are other cases in which he just stands there: (there are more cases, but I don't feel like looking for all of them...)
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-394/page003.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-367/page014.html


I don't think anyone is arguing that he's not a smart fighter

Perhaps, but I don't think that people are taking into account the fact that Love is significantly smarter than WW. And I think that using your brain in order to come up with a good strategy to win a battle is also important.


tl;dr, but basically, you're saying that WW, who was able to hold Yamamoto with two hands and pummel him with tens of others, wouldn't be able to grab Love? (since you're talking about Tengumaru as a sort of defense)

Again, I think you're overrating WW too much. The kid was absolutely no match for Yama. Yama let his guard down and the kid grabbed him for just a moment, then he attacked him with all his arms, and what happened to Yama? Absolutely nothing! ...WW's attacks were completely ineffective. Seriously, you talk as if WW was actually beating up Yama, but he was really not. Heck Yama was not impressed at all; Yama even looked down on him and said: "---What? That's it?" ...and then Yama proceeds to easily rip off WW's arms.

And yes, I do think that Love's Tengumaru would be a good defensive weapon; he made released Stark's ceros completely useless against him. Further even if Love somehow get's caught by WW, we have no idea how much damage exactly Love would receive because, seriously, Yama was not hurt at all! ...had Yama been hurt by that attack, then yeah...you could then have more of a point by saying that that attack from WW was so strong that it even injured Yama, but we know that that was not the case. In addition, like I mentioned in my previous post... Love did take several assaults from Stark's ultimate soul wolves technique, and Love still didn't go down. Therefore, Love is certainly pretty durable, which does make me believe that he may not get easily murdered by WW.


And...you're saying that even if he does get hits in, it won't injure him to the point that he couldn't continue, correct?

Correct, I don't think that Love would be injured to the point that he couldn't continue fighting anymore. And I gave reasons why already.


It's hard to say what WW's level of power is, since he fought Yamamoto, but I seriously doubt that Love, even with his mask on, has the same durability as Yamamoto...this dude laughed after getting stabbed by Aizen, lol

Again, WW did not even hurt Yama at all; WW was no match for the old man's bare hands. Therefore, yes, it's hard to say what WW's level of power is exactly. And I still don't buy the notion of him overpowering Bankai or Bankai + Mask Kensei. We don't know what happened to Kensei; it's all assumptions.


I guess you're only arguing that Love can beat WW, but...I don't even know about that.

I'm arguing that Love can win, yes.


It sucks, since Love is one of the better Vaizards, imo, and he actually has sufficient battle data for us to use in these threads, but I don't think that someone that could take blows from Yamamoto should be getting taken out by someone that has no victory feats.

WW could take blows from Yamamoto? Yama only first hit him with one bare hand and the kid got severally injured; WW only survived due to his high speed regeneration. After that all it took was Yama to get a little bit more serious using just both of his arms now, and Wondy was done. Seriously, WW was no match for an unarmed Yama.


I'm assuming that Kensei lost to WW.

Yeah, and it's pretty much the entire foundation for your argument as well as for pretty much all the others who are voting for WW. People think: WW easily beat Bankai + Mask Kensei, so Love stands absolutely no chance at all here. Your assumption that Kensei was beaten by WW is not necessarily a completely insane one, but it's still an assumption. It's not as if there aren't other possibilities though. There are quite a few other possibilities or scenarios that we can easily come up with as an explanation to Kensei's disappearance; quite a few have already been mentioned.


And, off topic, but can we stop using the fight with Hollow Ichigo as a measurement of the Vaizards abilities?

No. Sorry, I like those scenes. :toc


If we take that fight as a serious fight, then we have to assume that the Vaizards can all beat almost any character in the manga

Not necessarily, but I do believe that the Vizards are pretty strong and are sometimes underrated by some people. I mean, I've seen some people going as far as claiming that the vaizards are a completely failure. Yet it's not exactly their fault that they haven't had as much screen-time as the current SS captains. The vaizards still have a lot more to show. Besides, it's not as if Hollow Ichigo is the the most powerful being out there (his hollow form wasn't at the level that he showed against Ulquiorra yet either). Nevertheless, it does show that the Vaizards were skilled enough to handle that foe for 10 minutes.


Yes, it did perform a Cero. Yes, it did have HSR. No, it wasn't a captain-class opponent.

It certainly did have captain-class power. Seriously, that beast was a hollow Ichigo in Bankai mode. And while admittedly he may not have been making very complex tactics to fight that time... he did have a lot of power.

Tsukisama
February 05, 2011, 11:35 PM
Wonderweiss wins by a landslide! He shall advance on into Round 2. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny