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igotthegoods
January 19, 2011, 01:08 AM
Zommari vs. Hachi

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/13842

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Zommari

Zommari Rureaux, the Seventh (Septima) Espada and the self proclaimed “fastest espada,” moves so fast that he is able to make image clones of himself. His Resurrección, Brujería, gives him an odd appearance in which from the waste down he becomes pumpkin-shaped and develops several eyes all over this body. In this state, he is not only able to defend himself in a spherical ball but can also use Amor in which he can take control over something for each corresponding eye on his body. His deadly combination of speed and control makes him a tricky opponent to face.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Hachi

Ushōda Hachigen, commonly referred to as Hachi, is the physically largest Visored. He was formerly the Vice Kidō Captain of the Kidō Corps under Tessai Tsukabishi. He specializes in binding spells, and as such is always tasked with making barriers for the Visored. He is skilled enough to use bakudō up to 99 without reciting their incantations. By his own admission, his powers are very similar to those of Inoue Orihime. Despite his unusual size, Hachi is actually very kind and gentle.

His mask resembles a Native American tribe mask. He has been seen with a zanpakutō encased in his barrier right before confronting a horde of Gillian; however, it is uncertain what its powers are or if it is even a zanpakutō at all.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Random101
January 31, 2011, 11:39 PM
Hachi. Fast summoning Barriers for the win honestly. Granted Hachi doesn't really have any shown offensive moves, but let's be honest here, Kido VC, and he's got a level 99 bind chantless to fall back on against a target that can't move when released, and a sword, meager as it is. The math there's pretty clear.

Granted he'd have to drive him to release, but honestly that shouldn't be too hard if he keeps those barriers coming. Didn't take Byakuya much.

Tsukisama
January 31, 2011, 11:59 PM
I think that either fighter could reasonably win.

Sure, Hachigen has all of the things going for him that you mentioned, but the problem I see with him winning is pre-release Zommari. Zommari only released after his speed and swordplay proved useless against Byakuya. Hachigen doesn't, to our knowledge, fight with his zanpakutou, and he hasn't shown much, to my knowledge, that would suggest he could keep up with Zommari's speed.

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 12:01 AM
I'm gonna say Zommari here. While we've seen that Danku is capable of completely destroying Zommari's released offense, I don't think Zommari will need his Resurrection, or rather, he's better off without it.

In just his normal form, the clones are basically moving Cicada's, and with the kind of speed that can outmaneuver Byakuya, I'm gonna bet on it being too much for Hachi.

I think Hachi's at a disadvantage for these 1 on 1 fights. He's a force to be reckoned with as support, but I don't see him fairing too well when he's up against an opponent that can just blitz him. Incantation Kido is out of the question, and I'm guessing he won't be able to pull off a Rikujo koro against the fastest Sonido.

Still close, there's a lot of situations that could fall into Hachi's favor, but I see the majority ending with Zommari's win. Hell, he might let one of his clones get purposely hit, to lure Hachi into a false sense of security, he did it to Byakuya.

kkck
February 01, 2011, 12:03 AM
Well, the main issue here would be whether hachi has any actual firepower. His barriers are cool but could he seal zomari considering the speed zomari has? As far as reiatsu is concerned, I would definitely lean towards zomari however hachi definitely can seal zomari. I guess it depends on whether hachi's kido can keep up with zomari's speed. I am kinda leaning towards zomari here but I am still not that sure.

Takahashi
February 01, 2011, 12:14 AM
Well, the main issue here would be whether hachi has any actual firepower. His barriers are cool but could he seal zomari considering the speed zomari has? As far as reiatsu is concerned, I would definitely lean towards zomari however hachi definitely can seal zomari. I guess it depends on whether hachi's kido can keep up with zomari's speed. I am kinda leaning towards zomari here but I am still not that sure.

I don't think firepower is the issue, I'm sure there's plenty of offensive Kido that won't require a barrier. However, like you said, I think it's the issue of connecting against an Espada that fast. Because Hachi doesn't use his sword, if Zommari's in CQC, he has a MAJOR advantage over Hachi.

Random101
February 01, 2011, 12:57 AM
Zommari's fast yes, but so are Hachi's barriers, is my basic jist, he gets them up in time to stop Barragon's strikes afterall. This won't save him granted, and in fact if Zommari keeps at it Hachi's boned, but Zommari is quick to release. All you really have to do is offend him a little and he'll want to destroy you with his broken ability.

And Hachi offends even so called gods.

Granted if he stays sealed though, he has a damn good chance for victory. Barriers will only help for so long.

kkck
February 01, 2011, 02:12 AM
It is interesting that zomari seems to have more chances of winning when staying sealed than released lol. Anyways, does zomari's speed actually gets reduced when releases? His form would seem awkward for moving but I am still not sure. Didn't he actually shunpo at one point? Hachi could easily and certainly cancel zomari's amor but I guess there are other turns this fight could take. By hachi's own admission he is not really suited for combat (or at least his abilities aren't) so in a fight which require physical prowess I could see him getting grossly overpowered. Lets face it, hachi is fat, bulky and he has yet to exhibit anything which would suggest he has any degree of strength. He has his kido but the actual danger of him being blits or tricked by a clone is real. He took on barragan but the matchup itself was convenient for hachi in several ways. Fighting zomari would be a completely different scenario.

Smit
February 01, 2011, 02:46 AM
My question is can Zommari's swordplay cut through a simple barrier made by Hachi? If not Hachi can simply put up a barrier around himself and chant all the kido he wants untill he gets Zommari. I think Hachi barriers are stronger then a simple swordcut. Thus taking away the speed advantage Zommari has.

TBH honest both these guys lack serious firepower against eachother. We havent seen Hachi use any Hado kido. Zommari's amor is useless against Hachi's barriers. With the assumption that Zommari can use Gran Ray Cero and Hachi can do Hado I would still give this one to Hachi.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 02:58 AM
Hachi for sure. He can encase himself in a barrier and then plan this out... Hell put a shield around him and then use that no chant lvl 99 seal and win this easy. Hachi was fast enough with his shields to block respira(with mask) that even Soifon got hit by it.
So Hachi DEFENETLY has the speed to block whatever attack comes his way and then just seal him.
I am 100% sure he knows some lvl 90+ Kido BUT i am not going to use them because he never showed them. But they are not realy needed, he can seal him up.

AlB
February 01, 2011, 03:38 AM
I think that either fighter could reasonably win.

Sure, Hachigen has all of the things going for him that you mentioned, but the problem I see with him winning is pre-release Zommari. Zommari only released after his speed and swordplay proved useless against Byakuya. Hachigen doesn't, to our knowledge, fight with his zanpakutou, and he hasn't shown much, to my knowledge, that would suggest he could keep up with Zommari's speed.

But he doesn't need to fear Zommari's speed. He can simply incase himself in his barriers or use the mask to increase his speed.

simply throwing in my two chips.
I quite agree that the fight could go either way.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 01, 2011, 04:05 AM
I agree that this fight would be close, but I'd say if Hachi will manage to make a barrier around himself - he wins this fight for sure, cause his opponent doesn't have really strong attacking moves. Also I'd say Hachi was Kidou corpse Vice Captain, hence his Kidou is damn good and he can strike with a powerful Kidou.:)
Though Zomari can take Hachi if he doesn't give him time to make a first Barrier.:)
But in the majority of their fights I will vote for Hachi.:)

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 06:37 AM
Hachigen needs some time to make strong barriers:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-215/14/

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-215/15/

Otherwise Zommari can break them with a sword slash. It seems to me that Zommari wins in his sealed form using his speed but I'll wait to see other arguments in favor of Hachigen.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 07:00 AM
Hachigen needs some time to make strong barriers:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-215/14/

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-215/15/

Otherwise Zommari can break them with a sword slash. It seems to me that Zommari wins in his sealed form using his speed but I'll wait to see other arguments in favor of Hachigen.

Those things he used in fighting off Respira when he had his mask on will do. They whent down vs Respira but i am defenetly not going to belive Zommari has anything that powerfull. Now forget that comic relief moment and look at his barriers in his fight with Barragan. Also even there (link you posted) those where around an entire building, he only needs them around himself here or just in front of him.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 07:10 AM
Those things he used in fighting off Respira when he had his mask on will do. They whent down vs Respira but i am defenetly not going to belive Zommari has anything that powerfull. Now forget that comic relief moment and look at his barriers in his fight with Barragan. Also even there (link you posted) those where around an entire building, he only needs them around himself here or just in front of him.

Barragan was so sure of victory that he was giving enough time to Hachigen to make his barriers. I think Barragan could simply break such a barrier (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-368/18/) with a swing of his axe, Hachigen's barriers won't hold long against fast attacks from Zommari.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 07:54 AM
Barragan was so sure of victory that he was giving enough time to Hachigen to make his barriers. I think Barragan could simply break such a barrier (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-368/18/) with a swing of his axe, Hachigen's barriers won't hold long against fast attacks from Zommari.

I don't think Hachi is so stupid to use a low level barrier that can be broken from 1 hit on someone on Barragan level.

This one stoped Respira and was made very fast:
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/08/
After that the act of puting that around Barragan was easy enough. Zommari used his ressurection he looked stationary and this would be extremly easy to pull on him. Also this was strong enough to encase Soifon's explosion.

Now the barriers i said (with his mask) are these:
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-370/09/
Yes they broke eventualy on respira but still. Zommari has nothing close to respira in power.

Now remember that lvl 99 seal that Hachi used 100 years ago? Why not use it now... It would probably end the fight.

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 08:35 AM
I don't think Hachi is so stupid to use a low level barrier that can be broken from 1 hit on someone on Barragan level.

I don't mean Hachigen made a low-level barrier on purpose. I mean "less time=less powerful barriers." Zommari is fast, Hachigen won't have enough time to make strong barriers.


This one stoped Respira and was made very fast:
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/08/

No, it wasn't fast. Barragan was waiting to see what Hachigen was up to.


Zommari used his ressurection he looked stationary and this would be extremly easy to pull on him.

The fight will be over before Zommari releases.


Now the barriers i said (with his mask) are these:
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-370/09/
Yes they broke eventualy on respira but still. Zommari has nothing close to respira in power.

These barriers won't help against five clones of Zommari who attack from different directions. Hachigen isn't fast enough to handle them like Byakuya.


Now remember that lvl 99 seal that Hachi used 100 years ago? Why not use it now... It would probably end the fight.

Because Zommari won't wait for Hachigen to cast his binding spells on him, he will try to overpower Hachigen with his speed and I must say Hachigen, by his own admission, is not fit to fight against such opponents.

xXan
February 01, 2011, 10:05 AM
@Gran Maestro

I don't mean Hachigen made a low-level barrier on purpose. I mean "less time=less powerful barriers." Zommari is fast, Hachigen won't have enough time to make strong barriers.

No you misunderstood what i said. I wanted to say Hachi would not bother using a low level shield that would have no use even vs a melee hit.

No, it wasn't fast. Barragan was waiting to see what Hachigen was up to.

It looked fast to me.
Look here:
He starts using it and about the same time Barragan shots his respira
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/05/
After that he just adds to the initial barrier.

These barriers won't help against five clones of Zommari who attack from different directions. Hachigen isn't fast enough to handle them like Byakuya.

Yeah i know those clones would defenetly be a problem.
But i don't see why Hachi can't put a barrier around himself that can take
some slashes. He can also seal this guy up with a lvl 99 Kido that needs no incantation.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.4/page008.html
The next instant he is sealed.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.4/page009.html
So put up a shield that can take some hit and then use this.
Another instant:
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.3/page016.html

All Hachi needs is for Zommari to stop for a second. This huy was able to stop a individual that was moping the floor with multyple captains. Even if he had a distraction we can see he can instant-cast them. I would defenetly say he has better feats then Zommari. I mean winning vs barragan and stoping 2 hollofied individuals with nothing but instant cast kido's.
Something else. Hachi in his fight with Barragan and vs those 2 hollofied dudes when direcly for seals, Zommari on the other hand was running his mouth at first. Hachi only needs a word to finish this.

Xerneas
February 01, 2011, 10:33 AM
This is an interesting one because I think Zommari would probably lose if he fell victim to the same hubris he displayed, if in his released form. But I cannot see him losing unreleased regardless of personality flaws. Hacchi has not shown anything close to the kind of speed necessary to deal with that. Even Byakuya who is one of the best Shunpo users couldn't handle it and had to resort to one of Yoruichi's techniques, something he expressed dismay at. He had to be desperate to use that. And no one is going to tell me Hacchi is faster than Byakuya in anything he does. Barragan was humouring him and Soi Fon the entire time.

Unreleased Zommari would dazzle Hacchi with Gemelos Sonido and then strike him down. It really is that simple to me. So for once I voted for an Espada.

Or not. Voted Hachigen by accident (my mind is programmed against Espada lol). Maybe the mods can reverse votes?

Gran Maestro
February 01, 2011, 10:39 AM
It looked fast to me.
Look here:
He starts using it and about the same time Barragan shots his respira
http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/05/
After that he just adds to the initial barrier.

You're talking about the initial front barrier. Barragan waited for Hachigen to use incantation (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/07/) and enclose him (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-369/09/) in a strong barrier. Anybody else can pass the barrier by moving around it.


Yeah i know those clones would defenetly be a problem.
But i don't see why Hachi can't put a barrier around himself that can take
some slashes.

Hachigen needs such a barrier (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-368/18/) to enclose himself but I don't think it would hold long against Zommari's attacks.

Zommari would certainly not give enough time to Hachigen to recite the spell. The barrier at this link (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-215/14/) was big but it took a flying Shinji to break it, not a reiatsu slash from a zanpakuto which will be much stronger.


All Hachi needs is for Zommari to stop for a second. This huy was able to stop a individual that was moping the floor with multyple captains. Even if he had a distraction we can see he can instant-cast them. I would defenetly say he has better feats then Zommari. I mean winning vs barragan and stoping 2 hollofied individuals with nothing but instant cast kido's.
Something else. Hachi in his fight with Barragan and vs those 2 hollofied dudes when direcly for seals, Zommari on the other hand was running his mouth at first. Hachi only needs a word to finish this.

I don't think things are that easy. First of all, you need to have an opening to be able to bind your opponents, otherwise everybody who can cast binding spells without incantation would try to bind their opponents for a quick finish. Think about it, even Yamamoto didn't try to bind WW.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 11:59 AM
Zomari would win.

Hachi is not a fast character while zomarri has speed quick enough to create up to 6(7?) tangible clones. I don't see hacchi capable of creating barrier that quick, especially if he is not aware of the speed of his opponent.

Also, hacchi was only able to get the upper hand on barrgan by using barrgan's abilities against him, in this fight, he won't be able to do that. All hacchi can do is prolong his defeat by creating barriers until he tires out... that is assuming he realizes zomarri's speed before it is too late.

If needed, zomarri can release. Byakuya had to understand the amor before he could counter it. In hacchi's case, if zomarri controls either of his arms, that means NO KIDO! Furthermore, I believe that zomarri would be capable of taking control of hacci by aiming for his head. The reason he couldn't do that against byakuya is because byakuya was superior. As aizen stated, in a battle, it is a battle of reiatsu, that was why he knew he couldn't aim the amor at byakuya's head.

Anyways, that's my argument :amuse

kkck
February 01, 2011, 12:47 PM
It's not just an issue of understanding the attack. As we saw back when byakuya fought, he could actually tell when zomari was about to use it.
http://manga.gamestotal.com/en/readx/Bleach/11/300/1
He did get hit with it but he still managed to know beforehand he was being attacked. Once byakuya knew what he was dealing with he knew basically how to counter. Now, would hachi be able to react in this way and at the proper speed? Hachi's built does not suggest he has any form of speed. Given that combat is not his specialty I doubt he would have anywhere near byakuya's reflexes. In that sense, I would argue even defending himself from amor after knowing about it would be difficult. Maybe he could form a barrier around himself but I don't think it would permanently protect him from any form of attack and if zomari quite literally goes around him to attack then hachi is in trouble. I give this to zomari.

AlB
February 01, 2011, 12:53 PM
thing is, in my opinion, Zommari stands more chance of taking out Hachi if he doesn't release. if he releases he's doomed. he can no longer move properly and Hachi will just dominate him. + nothing amor can do against Hachi's barriers. seriously people, if Byakuya can create Danku in a sec, Hachi can do that in 1/10th of a sec.

considering the scenario where Zommari does not release... well that's where Hachi will have to break a sweat... Hachi's best shot would be to attempt to bind Zommari with lower ranking Bakudos that don't require much time to be activated. e.g. Bakudo #1 (and I'm not joking, bakudo #1 from monster like Hachi will at least buy him some time), #66, #76. after he binds zommari with them he should proceed with a heavier techs that will surely finish the Espada. of course, another condition is thhat Hachi will dawn his mask immediately once the fight begins. all in all, I think Hachi will take 7-8/10.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 01:19 PM
thing is, in my opinion, Zommari stands more chance of taking out Hachi if he doesn't release. if he releases he's doomed. he can no longer move properly and Hachi will just dominate him. + nothing amor can do against Hachi's barriers. seriously people, if Byakuya can create Danku in a sec, Hachi can do that in 1/10th of a sec.

considering the scenario where Zommari does not release... well that's where Hachi will have to break a sweat... Hachi's best shot would be to attempt to bind Zommari with lower ranking Bakudos that don't require much time to be activated. e.g. Bakudo #1 (and I'm not joking, bakudo #1 from monster like Hachi will at least buy him some time), #66, #76. after he binds zommari with them he should proceed with a heavier techs that will surely finish the Espada. of course, another condition is thhat Hachi will dawn his mask immediately once the fight begins. all in all, I think Hachi will take 7-8/10.
You can't bind someone who is moving fast enough to create physical afterimages. In all the times hacchi has used binding spells, the opponent is held down or not moving.

Going into this fight, he has no idea what zomari can do. Once zomarri uses his speed, it will be too fast for hacchi to react, let alone putup a barrier

Even if zomarri releases, hacchi still does not know what abilities he has. All zomarri has to do is take control of one arm, then that means hacchi's kido are useless since he can't perform it. He has to experience amor first to even have a chance to learn that danku can cancel it. Even though he used shuunpo, byakuya still got hit by amor, that's how fast it is.

Hacchi doesn't stand a chance

conn-man
February 01, 2011, 01:52 PM
This one could go either way for me since imo they both have something that could beat the other.

For Zommari, he has his sonido sword play combo that is dangeroou for anyone not specializing in speed. In ressurection, if he can use Amor to bind Hacchis hands it over.

With Hacchi, thinking fast enough and erecting barriers all around him will probably do wonders protecting him from any CQC. Since the fights are not to the death, if hacchi used that chantless Bakudo 99 then that would probably be victory.

I'll wait to cast my vote.

zimbardo
February 01, 2011, 01:58 PM
In all the times hacchi has used binding spells, the opponent is held down or not moving.
Looks to be mid kick if you ask me. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-101/13.jpg&server=nas.html)
And here, hollowfied Kensei is mid fight with Rose. Hardly what I'd call stationary or held down. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-101/16.jpg&server=nas.html)
And finally. Here is hollowfied Kensei charging at a downed Rose. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-100/08.jpg&server=nas.html)
These three examples lead me to believe that Hachigen can cast bakudo on rapidly moving targets quite adequately.


All zomarri has to do is take control of one arm, then that means hacchi's kido are useless since he can't perform it. He has to experience amor first to even have a chance to learn that danku can cancel it. Even though he used shuunpo, byakuya still got hit by amor, that's how fast it is.
Perhaps you are forgetting his previous use of a one armed kido? (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c370/14.png&server=nas.html)
Another example of a kido cast with one working arm. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c301/Bleach_301_pg15.jpg&server=nas.html)
And one of the most important kido(s?) for this matchup (again cast with only one working arm) (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c302/ATBleach_302_007.jpg&server=nas.html)
As to the question of if Hachigen knows Danku, well I'd like to think that as the vice commander of the kido corp, it is quite likely that he does. To make a kido forbidden (why Danku is I will never know), it has to be known by some people. Or else how do they know what it is that they are not meant to use? I'd think that the commander and his 2nd in command are likely to be able to access that information.

But yes, I agree that the speed gap is somewhat significant in this matchup. If Zommari can end it before Hachigen knows what is up, then it could be a very quick fight. However, I feel Hachigen does have more then enough in his reppetoire to deal with Zommari if he does not have a chance to make a plan.

I am still unsure either way.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 02:04 PM
The bakudo 99 would only work if the target is stationary. That won't happen since zomari is extremely quick.

And i don't see hacchi just starting the match casting barriers around himself
[hr]

Looks to be mid kick if you ask me. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-101/13.jpg&server=nas.html)
And here, hollowfied Kensei is mid fight with Rose. Hardly what I'd call stationary or held down. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-101/16.jpg&server=nas.html)
And finally. Here is hollowfied Kensei charging at a downed Rose. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20Minus/Bleach%20c-100/08.jpg&server=nas.html)
These three examples lead me to believe that Hachigen can cast bakudo on rapidly moving targets quite adequately.


Perhaps you are forgetting his previous use of a one armed kido? (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c370/14.png&server=nas.html)
Another example of a kido cast with one working arm. (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c301/Bleach_301_pg15.jpg&server=nas.html)
And one of the most important kido(s?) for this matchup (again cast with only one working arm) (http://read.homeunix.com/onlinereading/?image=Bleach/Bleach%20c302/ATBleach_302_007.jpg&server=nas.html)
As to the question of if Hachigen knows Danku, well I'd like to think that as the vice commander of the kido corp, it is quite likely that he does. To make a kido forbidden (why Danku is I will never know), it has to be known by some people. Or else how do they know what it is that they are not meant to use? I'd think that the commander and his 2nd in command are likely to be able to access that information.

But yes, I agree that the speed gap is somewhat significant in this matchup. If Zommari can end it before Hachigen knows what is up, then it could be a very quick fight. However, I feel Hachigen does have more then enough in his reppetoire to deal with Zommari if he does not have a chance to make a plan.

I am still unsure either way.
1. In all those cases, the opponents were not focused on hacchi and were fighting someone else. Furthermore, they were not moving anywhere as quick as zomari

2. I forgot about those LOL. But i still see zomari as capable of control hacchi by aiming at his head.
And i am pretty sure that hacchi knows danku. But he won't think about using it until he has witnessed danku a few times, by then it would be over already

zimbardo
February 01, 2011, 02:09 PM
The bakudo 99 would only work if the target is stationary. That won't happen since zomari is extremely quick.

And i don't see hacchi just starting the match casting barriers around himself
<hr noshade size="1">

1. In all those cases, the opponents were not focused on hacchi and were fighting someone else. Furthermore, they were not moving anywhere as quick as zomari

2. I forgot about those LOL. But i still see zomari as capable of control hacchi by aiming at his head.
And i am pretty sure that hacchi knows danku. But he won't think about using it until he has witnessed danku a few times, by then it would be over already

Apart from the bakudo 99 working on only working if the target is "stationary" (as Kensei looks to be moving pretty quickly to me ;))

Yeah, agree with you on both cases. And this is why I am still unsure as to who to vote for.
Not because it is impossible for Hachigen to win, just that it could genuinely go either way - depending on how the fight progresses.

Raizen
February 01, 2011, 02:36 PM
Apart from the bakudo 99 working on only working if the target is "stationary" (as Kensei looks to be moving pretty quickly to me ;))

Yeah, agree with you on both cases. And this is why I am still unsure as to who to vote for.
Not because it is impossible for Hachigen to win, just that it could genuinely go either way - depending on how the fight progresses.
Yes, but hacchi had the time to prepare it. Kensei's focus was not even on hacchi. In a fight where the pressure is directly on hacchi, it is going to be much harder for him,

But i am sure u can agree that kensei's speed is not even close to zomari's

monkey D luffy
February 01, 2011, 04:03 PM
remember how hachi beat the gillians? he can use his berriers in an offensive manner too. i think hachi can actually one shot zommari, as people here said i an put up shields faster then zommari can move, thats it.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
February 01, 2011, 04:16 PM
One shotting gillians =/= One shotting an espada, ever.

Speed is the bane of kido users, and the fact that Zomari has got clones to misguide where hachi needs to target if he wants to do some damage really makes a difference. Hachi can win, but the key to beating a kido user, is to not let them get there spells off/get in their face, and his opponent happens to be the most proficient sonido user ever soooo.....

As for insulting Zomari, firstly that is not in Hachi's character so that won't happen. Secondly, it wasn't like Zomari was short-tempered so much as short-sighted once he did lose his temper, because Byakuya was rreeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaallllyy being a dick. Even if Hachi tried to insult, it probably wouldn't be half as effective/infuriating as Byakuya and all his ego.

Jackk
February 01, 2011, 05:45 PM
Hachi wins this.

First of all, I seriously don't think that Zommari was the fastest Espada. And I also don't see him having the best or fastest sonido ... specially considering that even the second data book merely labeled Zommari's claim as a "boast." On the other hand, the second data book did confirm Nnoitra's claim of hardest hierro, thus if Zommari was really the fastest, I'm pretty sure that Kubo would have confirmed it... but he didn't; it's just a boast http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php/44132-Character-Book-Masked?p=1466151&viewfull=1#post1466151 ...Now, that doesn't necessarily have to mean that Zommari is slow either;however, I could certainly see others like Stark being faster.

Furthermore, I don't understand how someone could honestly believe that Zommari could make genuinely solid clones of himself to fight together with the original one. Gemelos sonido is only a movement technique where Zommari makes so many short distance steps shifting back & forth between positions fast enough that it creates the optical illusion that there are more than one of him attacking simultaneously. Zommari even referred to it as "a trick used in order to surprise the opponent." That's all it is. It's not kage bunshin no jutsu. In addition, the whole Byakuya getting stabbed by multiple opponents was also an optical illusion created by his cicada, just as Yoruichi had done the same in the SS arc against Byakuya.

Now, Hachi can win this because, seriously, the guy actually has the tools to pull this off. Also, Hachi may not be known for having super speed;however, I really don't think he is as slow as people may think. Sure he may have claimed that he was slow 100+ years ago, but after 100+ years of training...I'm sure the guy has gotten faster, specially after getting a boost to his shinigami limits via hollowfication, and then a further boost if he puts on his Mask as well. Granted Zommari could still have the edge in speed probably, but I really don't see Hachi getting speed blitzed and one-shotted; that sounds completely ridiculous to me. Furthermore, we know that Hachi can really put up his barriers pretty damn fast, thus he can potentially surround himself with barriers and block incoming attacks.

Heck I'll even go as far as claim that Hachi actually showed some pretty good speed against Barragan. Yeah, I'm talking about the moment after Barragan emerged from the blast of Soifon's Bankai, when he was completely furious, and quickly released respira in an attempt to hit Soifon with it... only to have Hachi quickly appear in front of Soifon and stopping respira for a moment with a quick barrier, which he reinforced with his Mask.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-10.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-11.html

Another thing is that Hachi has access to several binding spells. Heck the guy could even do a lv99 Binding spell without incantation and that was 100+ years ago. Some people seem to be claiming that Hachi would not be able to catch Zommari, but I think Hachi can...and seriously, Hachi's kidou is really fast. I mean, if really necessary... Hachi could likely spam low level binding spells, and once Zommari is caught... Hachi could follow with higher level binding spells on top of that. I'm sure Hachi also has high level Hadous that he could use, but even if we don't count those...Hachi could probably still win if he seals Zommari inside a barrier. It's also pretty safe to say that Hachi also has access to Danku...considering that fact that we've already seen Hachi doing a level 99 Bakudo spell without incantation even, and Danku is just a lv81 Bakudo. Therefore Hachi already has the kido move that can stop Zommari's amor.

Not to mention that the moment Zommari releases his zanpakutou... he's basically a sitting duck for the most part. Granted Zommari's amor ability is still dangerous, but we've already seen it being defeated and ineffective against Kidou. Sure, it took Byakuya a little bit of time to figure things out...but considering the fact that Hachi does seem to be very analytical himself, to say the least..... I'm pretty sure that Hachi can figure out a good way to win this fight with his Kidou mastery. Particularly considering how Zommari also seems to like to "play" with his opponent's first. Heck Zommari was even explaining how his abilities worked when he fought Byakuya. Zommari is very arrogant, so this will specially give Hachi the time needed to formulate a plan in mid-fight; Hachi can pull it off.

El Samurai Guapo
February 01, 2011, 06:23 PM
I'm pretty sure Hachi has this one in the bag, so I won't spend too much time defending him. Pretty much everything said above by Jackk are my exact sentiments. Hachi is actually one of the worst opponents for Zommari for reasons that should be obvious.

Mashiro_Luna
February 01, 2011, 07:17 PM
I voted for Zommari. If he was in his pre-release state he would be able to take down Hachi with relative ease. If he actually released though Hachi would easily win. Though this is based on what we have seen so far.

Snake_Cowboy
February 02, 2011, 01:13 PM
I was initially going to vote immediately for Hachi, given Zommari's not-so-wonderful display against Byakuya (though to be fair, I think quite a few Espada would've lost to him as he really is a powerful captain; I suspected Zommari was completely screwed the second Byakuya appeared). Reading some posts here made me doubt, though, and I had some trouble deciding who to vote for.

But after a lot of hesitation, I'm still going for Hachigen.

As others have pointed out, Zommari's speed really is his greatest weapon in this fight; eventhough the databook confirmed he was boasting, it's still impressive and it has to be superior to Hachi. While he may not necessarily be slow despite his great size, I cannot imagine Hachi, even if he is a Hollowfied vice-captain, being faster than an Espada (so roughly a captain-class fighter) who specialises in speed.

But Zommari's personality has to be taken into account: the guy is arrogant to the point of deluding himself. Barragan might be worse, but at least he had actual power that somewhat justified his hubris. It's quite likely that Zommari will not take this fight seriously; he'll toy around with Hachi rather than speedblitzing him and killing him when he has the chance.

With some effort, I think Hachi will be capable of avoiding Zommari's hits, enduring them or blocking them with his barriers. While it may be difficult, I think Hachi is capable of catching Zommari with a Bakudou; given his skill, it's reasonable to assume he is capable of using high-level kidou both offensively and defensively, so the moment he has him, he could inflict a serious injury on Zommari. Or even teleport his head away with a barrier, like he did with those Menos.

If Zommari releases, I doubt it will take Hachi much effort to block Amor. Even if he does get hit (let's say, on his hand), he can teleport a controlled limb away the same way he did against Barragan. While Hachi's kidou may be less potent with only one hand, there are still enough dangerous spells that he can perform.

Add to that Hachi's Hollow mask to boost his abilities and I say Hachi will manage a victory here.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
February 02, 2011, 01:49 PM
But Zommari's personality has to be taken into account: the guy is arrogant to the point of deluding himself. Barragan might be worse, but at least he had actual power that somewhat justified his hubris. It's quite likely that Zommari will not take this fight seriously; he'll toy around with Hachi rather than speedblitzing him and killing him when he has the chance.


Zommari is self righteous, but I would not say arrogant; he was trying to punish Byakuya for his constant insults. If you reread the fight, Zommari was rather respectful, just saying that he wants to fight as equals. Even though Byakuya is stronger, it was not really arrogance...especially when you consider what Byakuya whas saying in return. I cant see Hachi be anything but courteous, in which Zommari would fight more efficiently and act more level headed.

There is the whole ressureccion induced stupidity that all arrancar seem to suffer, however, that just reinforces the idea that when unreleased, Zommari has the advantage, and when released he has no chance.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 01:54 PM
But Zommari's personality has to be taken into account: the guy is arrogant to the point of deluding himself. Barragan might be worse, but at least he had actual power that somewhat justified his hubris. It's quite likely that Zommari will not take this fight seriously; he'll toy around with Hachi rather than speedblitzing him and killing him when he has the chance.

That's not really true. Zommari was actually quite respectful of Byakuya before they fought. Byakuya just got under his skin with his superiority speech, something I doubt Hachi would, or is even capable of replicating :amuse

Zommari fought Byakuya and actually fooled him with Sonido enough to force him to use a technique to stop from being killed. That's impressive. The scary thing about Zommari's clones (as opposed to say, Soi Fon's) is that they react to things. When you think you've downed the guy, there's a new one right behind you. I don't think Zommari's attitude or readiness to kill will be detrimental to him against Hachi in any way.

I'm not sure why people are putting so much faith in the barriers. I don't think Hachi can just make a box around himself and just start blasting Kido at Zommari with any real effectiveness. Hachi's a monster to have as support, but one on one, I can't imagine he fairs that well, this is mostly due to the speed Zommari has more than anything.

I'm also not sure why people are taking away Zommari's fastest Sonido though. It was noted as a boast. A boast is not an untrue statement.

Crystal Black
February 02, 2011, 02:02 PM
I'm not to sure about this mach-up if we look at it Hachi has no way of getting past gemelos sonido, and Zommari's at a disadvantage with kido. I'm going to think about this..

UchihaHunter
February 02, 2011, 02:12 PM
Have we confirmed that by "boast," Kubo meant that it wasn't actually the fastest? Can't you say in a commercial, "X car boasts a 0-60mph time of 3.2 seconds"? I'm pretty sure I've heard "boast" being used in a way that didn't take away from the fact of the statement. I can sorta understand from the standpoint of someone that doesn't speak English as their first language, but any English speaker should be aware that a boast isn't necessarily false.

Anyway, Zommari wins this as speedblitz is the worst enemy of kidou-specialists. I don't see Hachi being able to react properly to a technique that required Byakuya of all people to use a special tech.

AlB
February 02, 2011, 02:16 PM
That's not really true. Zommari was actually quite respectful of Byakuya before they fought. Byakuya just got under his skin with his superiority speech, something I doubt Hachi would, or is even capable of replicating :amuse

Zommari fought Byakuya and actually fooled him with Sonido enough to force him to use a technique to stop from being killed. That's impressive. The scary thing about Zommari's clones (as opposed to say, Soi Fon's) is that they react to things. When you think you've downed the guy, there's a new one right behind you. I don't think Zommari's attitude or readiness to kill will be detrimental to him against Hachi in any way.

I'm not sure why people are putting so much faith in the barriers. I don't think Hachi can just make a box around himself and just start blasting Kido at Zommari with any real effectiveness. Hachi's a monster to have as support, but one on one, I can't imagine he fairs that well, this is mostly due to the speed Zommari has more than anything.

I'm also not sure why people are taking away Zommari's fastest Sonido though. It was noted as a boast. A boast is not an untrue statement.

No matter how fast Zommari's Sonido is, unless it's on Yoruichi's, Soifon's, Aizen's and Yama's level, I highly doubt it will be of much use if Hachi binds him with extremely low rank kido right at the beginning of the fight.
As I said, I honestly believe that Bakudo #1 (I think it's called Sai) coming from such a Kido monster will at least either buy him some time to perform higher level Bakudo and bind espada more securly or encase Zommari's head in a barrier and remove it right away.
This happens at even faster rate if Hachi dawns the mask straight away.

If we take personalities into consideration Zommari is screwed even more. How did the Espada begin his confrontation with Byakuya? by introducing himself :notrust
how did Hachi begin his confrontation with Barragan? by attacking the moment he saw an enemy :amuse

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 02:21 PM
No matter how fast Zommari's Sonido is, unless it's on Yoruichi's, Soifon's, Aizen's and Yama's level, I highly doubt it will be of much use if Hachi binds him with extremely low rank kido right at the beginning of the fight.

Why is that? What is the weakness in Zommari's Sonido? He outplayed Byakuya. Hachi's only fight was against a stationary guy that just shit talked him all day, how is that comparable to the fastest Sonido.


As I said, I honestly believe that Bakudo #1 (I think it's called Sai) coming from such a Kido monster will at least either buy him some time to perform higher level Bakudo and bind espada more securly or encase Zommari's head in a barrier and remove it right away.
This happens at even faster rate if Hachi dawns the mask straight away.

Doesn't Bakudo #1 just tie your arms behind your back..? :darn


If we take personalities into consideration Zommari is screwed even more. How did the Espada begin his confrontation with Byakuya? by introducing himself :notrust
how did Hachi begin his confrontation with Barragan? by attacking the moment he saw an enemy :amuse

Hachi was already standing in front of Barragan....It's not like he attacked him the moment he saw him, he talked to Soi Fon first :darn

AlB
February 02, 2011, 02:40 PM
Why is that? What is the weakness in Zommari's Sonido? He outplayed Byakuya. Hachi's only fight was against a stationary guy that just shit talked him all day, how is that comparable to the fastest Sonido.

I sure hope you are not talking about Hollow Kensei



Doesn't Bakudo #1 just tie your arms behind your back..? :darn

and forces an opponent into a kneeling position



Hachi was already standing in front of Barragan....It's not like he attacked him the moment he saw him, he talked to Soi Fon first :darn

yes but he didn't waste time on: hey what's up my name's Hachi and what's your name and your whats your rank

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 02:56 PM
I sure hope you are not talking about Hollow Kensei

..................................Barragan...........................



and forces an opponent into a kneeling position

So....Zommari is going to be caught by the weakest Kido possible, and just die? His fastest Sonido doesn't even factor in?



yes but he didn't waste time on: hey what's up my name's Hachi and what's your name and your whats your rank

No, he said, "Hey Soi Fon", "Oh, I'm not surprised you don't like me..." then Barragan interrupted them. I don't see how talking to the person next to you is in any way different than introducing yourself. Hell, damn near everyone introduces themselves, when was the last time you saw an introduction being the reason for someone losing?

AlB
February 02, 2011, 03:22 PM
..................................Barragan...........................


Kensei!!!! :p sure as hell wasn't giving any speeches while pummeling high seated officers of SS




So....Zommari is going to be caught by the weakest Kido possible, and just die? His fastest Sonido doesn't even factor in?

dude did you even read my post?! :notrust


No, he said, "Hey Soi Fon", "Oh, I'm not surprised you don't like me..." then Barragan interrupted them. I don't see how talking to the person next to you is in any way different than introducing yourself. Hell, damn near everyone introduces themselves, when was the last time you saw an introduction being the reason for someone losing?

at least he was talking to an ally.
damn near everyone? that's right, damn near everyone :amuse Hachi... not one of them

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 03:34 PM
Kensei!!!! :p sure as hell wasn't giving any speeches while pummeling high seated officers of SS

What does that have to do with anything? Hachi had backup consisting of 5 freakin' people! That's not akin to a one on one fight in any way.




dude did you even read my post?! :notrust

Yeah, you said bind with #1, use better binding, hit with Kido, Zommari dead. Again, ignoring Zommari's obvious ridiculously big speed advantage.




at least he was talking to an ally.

So talking to the person beside you is WAY different than talking to the one in front of you. What?




damn near everyone? that's right, damn near everyone :amuse Hachi... not one of them

Right, I forgot about all of those fights he's had. Fine, Hachi beats everyone who's ever introduced themselves then I guess?

AlB
February 02, 2011, 03:36 PM
What does that have to do with anything? Hachi had backup consisting of 5 freakin' people! That's not akin to a one on one fight in any way.

so? Kensei wasn't moving any slower you know.



Yeah, you said bind with #1, use better binding, hit with Kido, Zommari dead. Again, ignoring Zommari's obvious ridiculously big speed advantage.

that's why I said bind him with #1 first. to counter speed.



So talking to the person beside you is WAY different than talking to the one in front of you. What?

at least he didn't try exchanging pleasantries



Right, I forgot about all of those fights he's had. Fine, Hachi beats everyone who's ever introduced themselves then I guess?

is this where I'm supposed to snap at a cynical remark?

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 03:46 PM
so? Kensei wasn't moving any slower you know.

It was charging blindly at Rose, was not using Sonido or Shunpo, and was completely unaware of Hachi's presence. Not the same thing.



that's why I said bind him with #1 first. to counter speed.

Okay, so again, Hachi beats basically everyone then. You said it yourself, Soi Fon, Yoroichi, Aizen, and Yama are apparently the only ones who can escape without getting caught by Bakudo #1......





at least he didn't try exchanging pleasantries

How does that matter? The CONTENT of what they say is irrelevant, the fact is, yes, Hachi has spoken before a fight too.




is this where I'm supposed to snap at a cynical remark?

No, I'd like a real answer. Who beats Hachi then? You're giving Zommari negative points here for introducing himself. You're saying that introducing yourself is somehow a significant way to be beaten.

Gran Maestro
February 02, 2011, 03:48 PM
I'm curious about something. Are we assuming that Hachigen casts binding spells much faster than other shinigami or that any shinigami who knows bakudo can simply bind Zommari and defeat him? Which one?

AlB
February 02, 2011, 04:01 PM
It was charging blindly at Rose, was not using Sonido or Shunpo, and was completely unaware of Hachi's presence. Not the same thing.

he was still caught mid-movement.



Okay, so again, Hachi beats basically everyone then. You said it yourself, Soi Fon, Yoroichi, Aizen, and Yama are apparently the only ones who can escape without getting caught by Bakudo #1......

I was talking about speed, obviously. shattering #1 with reiatsu is different and there are only handful of chars who can immediately shatter a binding kido which is coming from Hachi and as far as we've seen, Zommari doesn't qualify into the lot.


How does that matter? The CONTENT of what they say is irrelevant, the fact is, yes, Hachi has spoken before a fight too.

a couple of words, not the speech about arrogance etc, might I add.


No, I'd like a real answer. Who beats Hachi then? You're giving Zommari negative points here for introducing himself. You're saying that introducing yourself is somehow a significant way to be beaten.

I never said that. I said it's foolish and gives opponent an edge. don't go interpreting one's comments the way it suits you.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 04:07 PM
he was still caught mid-movement.

I never said Hachi could ONLY catch stationary opponents, but that we've never seen him, or really anyone bind someone who was using Sonido/Shunpo.




I was talking about speed, obviously. shattering #1 with reiatsu is different and there are only handful of chars who can immediately shatter do that to a binding kido which coming from Hachi and as far as we've seen, Zommari doesn't qualify into the lot.

I'm pretty sure Zommari is easily fast enough to avoid being bound. He got Byakurai'd at point blank and dodged it. I don't see how Hachi would be any faster.



a couple of words, not the speech about arrogance etc, might I add.

So now because Zommari and Byakuya talked for a bit, Hachi has an automatic advantage because he didn't in his fight?



I never said that. I said it's foolish and gives opponent an edge. don't go interpreting one's the way it suits you.

I'm not. Introducing yourself doesn't give the opponent an edge. Standing still and not talking is no different than standing still and talking.

If you think Zommari will state his name and rank, somehow be unable to dodge a low level Kido despite already proving he can, get caught, bound again, and have his head lopped off like a bloody Menos, then we've got nothing more to discuss.

AlB
February 02, 2011, 04:14 PM
I never said Hachi could ONLY catch stationary opponents, but that we've never seen him, or really anyone bind someone who was using Sonido/Shunpo.

assuming other characters can bind enemies who are able to utilize shunpo/sonido I see no reason why kido master wouldn't be able to do that with easiest and quickest kido


I'm pretty sure Zommari is easily fast enough to avoid being bound. He got Byakurai'd at point blank and dodged it. I don't see how Hachi would be any faster.

I'm not saying that Hachi himself would be faster, I say if he casts Sai from the beginning, the very moment the fight begins he might catch Zommari




So now because Zommari and Byakuya talked for a bit, Hachi has an automatic advantage because he didn't in his fight?

I'm not. Introducing yourself doesn't give the opponent an edge. Standing still and not talking is no different than standing still and talking.

If you think Zommari will state his name and rank, somehow be unable to dodge a low level Kido despite already proving he can, get caught, bound again, and have his head lopped off like a bloody Menos, then we've got nothing more to discuss.

I said IF we take into account their personalities it gets worse for Zommari nothing else.

and it doesn't give an edge? imagine Byakuya going at Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 04:18 PM
assuming other characters can bind enemies who are able to utilize shunpo/sonido I see no reason why kido master wouldn't be able to do that with easiest and quickest kido

That's true, but generally those only connect by surprise, and we've seen Zommari dodge fast Kido before. I don't think it's fair to assume that Hachi would more often than not end him right off the bat just because he's good at Kido.


I'm not saying that Hachi himself would be faster, I say if he casts Sai from the beginning, the very moment the fight begins he might catch Zommari

Using the same logic, if Zommari uses Gemeleos Sonido right at the beginning, his clone gets caught by the Kido, then stabs Hachi in the back is also a possible scenario as well right? After all, we can all agree that Zommari is much faster than Hachi, so if a speed blitz is possible due to fast Kido, a speed blitz should also be possible due to fast movement speed.



I said IF we take into account their personalities. it gets worse for Zommari nothing else.

I don't really see a personality flaw that would lead to Zommari's defeat. He was calm and collected, and if it wasn't for Byakuya shit talking him, he would have reacted much differently.


and it doesn't give an edge? imagine Byakuya going at Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra

Considering Zommari was able to outdo Byakuya with his Sonido, I'd imagine he'd be just fine if Byakuya decided to attack. Speaking doesn't stop your legs from moving.

UchihaHunter
February 02, 2011, 07:16 PM
I feel like we've stepped into the absurd when we're considering introducing yourself as a viable reason for you to be defeated...Stark was able to dodge Shunsui's slash attack (which was covered by his hat) while talking to him, but the fastest sonido won't be able to dodge a bakudo by Hachi while talking? Huh?

Jackk
February 02, 2011, 07:41 PM
Problem is, you guys keep basing your whole argument on the belief that Zommari is the fastest Espada even though Kubo didn't even confirm it, but rather labeled it as a boast. I also can't buy the notion that Zommari would be faster than someone like Stark....

Stark actually showed way superior base speed, and superior sonido, in my opinion.

Heck, you guys think that since Zommari is so fast...he could kill the higher ranked Espada? That doesn't make sense to me. He's only the 7th Espada, come on...

Also, like I said earlier... Zommari's gemelos sonido just makes short distance steps moving fast enough between a short distance as he moves from one position to another...that it creates the optical illusion that there are several of him attacking simultaneously. He cannot create real solid clones though. They're just afterimages created by that technique, which Zommari even labeled as a trick to surprise the enemy etc.

Hachi also isn't that slow from what we've seen in recent times. I personally think it's ridiculous to assume that Zommari can speed blitz and one-shoot Hachi. Even if Zommari still has a speed advantage...I don't think that it's that much higher that he can easily one-shoot Hachi, specially since the guy can use Kido very fast and with excellent results. Besides, I also don't even see Zommari going immediately for the kill as the fight begins; it doesn't seem to be characteristic of him. He will try to show off first...like he did against Byakuya. Heck remember that when Zommari first did Gemelos Sonido, he first explained it to Byakuya thinking that Byakuya wouldn't have a way to counter. If Zommari does the same here against Hachi, then Hachi will be aware of Zommari's potential speed, thus he would think to put up barriers etc.

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 07:53 PM
Problem is, you guys keep basing your whole argument on the belief that Zommari is the fastest Espada even though Kubo didn't even confirm it, but rather labeled it as a boast. I also can't buy the notion that Zommari would be faster than someone like Stark....

No one said fastest, but fastest SONIDO. Which is still a very substantial factor that I don't think people are considering. Like I've said, a boast isn't a lie. You can boast about true things, and unless the databook says a lie, or exaggeration, I'm believing Zommari's claim. Hell, no one questions Noirtra Hierro, he brags about it too.


Stark actually showed way superior base speed, and superior sonido, in my opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that essentially impossible to gauge? Omaeda's Shunpo looks identical to Yoroichi's. Stark dodged a lot of attacks, and seemed very casual while doing it, I'll give you that. However, Zommari was using fast enough Sonido to fool the guy trained by Yoroichi and almost kill him.


Heck, you guys think that since Zommari is so fast...he could kill the higher ranked Espada? That doesn't make sense to me. He's only the 7th Espada, come on...

What? I'm arguing the idea that Hachi will just bind him and kill him with ease. There's no way it is that simple. Since when do you care about rank by the way? I've heard you say that you think Grimmjow would beat Noirtra, why is that? Were you honestly not at all oppressed that this guy who is JUST number 7 moved so damn fast he created a technique that no one else has? He's a moving Cicada!


Hachi also isn't that slow from what we've seen in recent times.

Movement speed, he is. Which means it's going to be Kido speed vs movement speed. The problem here is that Zommari's clones can feign injury. Byakuya couldn't even handle them and he not only used Kido, but good sword skills too.

Hachi won't be able to anticipate that the guy he just blasted with Kido isn't even real. Because Zommari moves much faster than Hachi can, he'll be open to attack. The clones are no joke, and I honestly think they'd give a lot of people trouble.

El Samurai Guapo
February 02, 2011, 08:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that essentially impossible to gauge? Omaeda's Shunpo looks identical to Yoroichi's. Stark dodged a lot of attacks, and seemed very casual while doing it, I'll give you that. However, Zommari was using fast enough Sonido to fool the guy trained by Yoroichi and almost kill him.

Starrk was so fast that he would outright disappear from peoples sight. Not just us, the viewers (as is the case with any shunpo), but to multiple captain level characters. He did it to both Ichigo and Kenpachi, and later to Love (when he avoided hifuki no kozuchi and appeared above him with the wolves). Something that leaves after-images a LOT slower than something that is outright invisible while moving. People who read manga have a preconceived notion that more after-images = superior speed for some reason.

Jackk
February 02, 2011, 08:26 PM
No one said fastest, but fastest SONIDO. Which is still a very substantial factor that I don't think people are considering. Like I've said, a boast isn't a lie. You can boast about true things, and unless the databook says a lie, or exaggeration, I'm believing Zommari's claim. Hell, no one questions Noirtra Hierro, he brags about it too.

Why did Kubo confirm Nnoitra's claim and made it 100% fact, yet he only labeled Zommari's claim as a boast? Think about it...


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that essentially impossible to gauge? Omaeda's Shunpo looks identical to Yoroichi's.

LOL.... no.


Stark dodged a lot of attacks, and seemed very casual while doing it, I'll give you that. However, Zommari was using fast enough Sonido to fool the guy trained by Yoroichi and almost kill him.

Stark covered a huge distance with his Sonido when he captured Orihime and then took her to where Aizen was. And Ichigo nor Kenpachi couldn't stop him. Stark also surprised Ukitake with his sonido as he easily dodged the cero blast that Ukitake redirected and then appeared near him in an instant http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-376-page-15.html ...there are other instances of Stark showing great speed against Shunsui too etc.... I don't feel like looking for the links though; I'm sure you probably remember about those scenes now anyway.


What? I'm arguing the idea that Hachi will just bind him and kill him with ease. There's no way it is that simple.

What? I'm arguing the idea that Zommari will speed blitz him and kill him with ease. There's no way it is that simple.


Since when do you care about rank by the way?

Since always? Battles in Bleach are battles of Reitsu, and higher ranked Espadas, at bare minimum, should really have an edge against lower ranked Espadas. And higher the difference in rank, the easier it should be for the higher ranked Espada to win.


I've heard you say that you think Grimmjow would beat Noirtra, why is that?

I never said that.


Were you honestly not at all oppressed that this guy who is JUST number 7 moved so damn fast he created a technique that no one else has? He's a moving Cicada!

Lol.. obviously not as impressed as you are...


Movement speed, he is. Which means it's going to be Kido speed vs movement speed. The problem here is that Zommari's clones can feign injury. Byakuya couldn't even handle them and he not only used Kido, but good sword skills too.

-I don't think Hachi is as slow as you think. Do remember when Barragan emerged from the blast of Soifon's Bankai, when he was completely furious, and quickly released respira in an attempt to hit Soifon with it... only to have Hachi quickly appear in front of Soifon and stopping respira for a moment with a quick barrier, which he reinforced with his Mask.


Hachi won't be able to anticipate that the guy he just blasted with Kido isn't even real. Because Zommari moves much faster than Hachi can, he'll be open to attack. The clones are no joke, and I honestly think they'd give a lot of people trouble.

Again, I don't think Zommari is as fast and you claim. Not to the point that Hachi can't do something with his quick barriers...specially after Zommari has already shown and explained to him his Gemelos Sonido ability...just as he explained it to Byakuya first.


Starrk was so fast that he would outright disappear from peoples sight. Not just us, the viewers (as is the case with any shunpo), but to multiple captain level characters. He did it to both Ichigo and Kenpachi, and later to Love (when he avoided hifuki no kozuchi and appeared above him with the wolves). Something that leaves after-images a LOT slower than something that is outright invisible while moving. People who read manga have a preconceived notion that more after-images = superior speed for some reason.

Also this ^

freshseth83
February 02, 2011, 08:26 PM
Shunpo and Sonido- there's speed distance and quickness. Shunsui and Starrk showed great speed and distance. Like when Shunsui zipped out Nanao from underneeth Yama's SP, and came back in an instant, all in one step. And like Starrk, where he kidnapped Orihime and bounced so far that ichigo didn't even know where they were at. That's shunpo/sonido speed and distance. Shunpo/Sonido quickness is like Soi-Fon, Yoruichi, Byakuya, Zommari. Don't get it confused. Leaving after images just means they are here then there then here then there, all over again and again. So it seems they are in 3 or 4 or more places at once. When near an enemy this is usefull. That doesn't mean they are the 'fastest' or have the 'best shunpo/sonido' You think Soi-Fon and Yoruichi are faster than Yama? Come on now. Shunsui, Ukitake, Yama, Unohana, those guys been around for ages, they've mastered these arts, I'm sure they could 'speed-blitz' if they wanted to, but for what? That's useless. If you know what you're doing you don't need to worry about that. If you are skilled enough you can get the timing down and know which image is not just an image. Zommari's clones are useless to me. Hachi knows enough kido to protect himself and bind Zommari at any given moment. He's not waiting around for someone to speed blitz him. People here act like he's a V/C or some lower rank. This dude has been around as 2nd in command of the Kido corps for perhaps 100 years before 100 years ago. I'm pretty positive he knows a thing or two. I put him almost as good as Tessai, now are we assuming Tessai would lose? Kido isn't just bakudo or binding, but attacking as well. If he knows level 99 spells, I'm sure he knows all of the ones before that level as well, and those include attacking spells. Plus Amor is kido based, just his specialty. He's been around longer than Byakuya and he was able to determine Amor's attack type. I'm giving this to Hachi.

Raizen
February 02, 2011, 08:38 PM
assuming other characters can bind enemies who are able to utilize shunpo/sonido I see no reason why kido master wouldn't be able to do that with easiest and quickest kido



I'm not saying that Hachi himself would be faster, I say if he casts Sai from the beginning, the very moment the fight begins he might catch Zommari





I said IF we take into account their personalities it gets worse for Zommari nothing else.

and it doesn't give an edge? imagine Byakuya going at Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra
1. I don't remember a single character from bleach getting caught in a bakudo while moving a shuunpo speed.

2. And if it was that easy to trap someone with a weak kido look sai, then even weak lieutenants can take out powerful hollows like the espadas. U have to take into account their own SP as well. A weak bakudo won't be holding down someone strong.

And why are we assuming that hacchi knows the abilties of zomari. Zomari is speedy. He can take hacchi out the moment the match starts because of his speed.
______________________
Can someone point me to the DB translation where it talks about the espads

Takahashi
February 02, 2011, 08:44 PM
@Jackk

You're right, you never said you thought Grimm would beat Noirtra, but you thanked the post that did, that generally means you agree.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I won't bother with this any more. If you think Hachi can just pop up barriers around himself and stop the guy who was fast enough to quite easily get Byakuya, I don't know what to say. I'm getting tired of just going around in circles in these topics, sorry.

Jackk
February 02, 2011, 09:04 PM
@Jackk

You're right, you never said you thought Grimm would beat Noirtra, but you thanked the post that did, that generally means you agree.

I don't remember that.

Although, If you're referring to the Nel and Grimmjow Vs Nnoitra and Luppi thread... I did defend Grimmjow when people claimed that even Grimmjow's best attacks would do nothing to Nnoitra, and I certainly do disagree with that. Besides, in that fight it was Grimmjow AND Nel Vs Nnoitra as I didn't believe Luppi would be able to beat Grimmjow or Nel. I believe that Nnoitra certainly has the edge against Grimmjow and would likely win more often than not in a 1 on 1 fight, but really... difference between #6 and #5 isn't that big. I've always noted of the importance of rank though, and Nnoitra does pack a stronger punch with his higher reiatu and having hardest hierro isn't bad either. Further, I've always held that the manga stated that battles in Bleach are battle of reiatsu, which is why I find ridiculous for someone like Szayel to beat released Harribel, for example.


Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

I agree, why did you even bring that up?


I won't bother with this any more. If you think Hachi can just pop up barriers around himself and stop the guy who was fast enough to quite easily get Byakuya, I don't know what to say. I'm getting tired of just going around in circles in these topics, sorry.

If you think that Zommari will just begin the fight by speed blitzing and one-shooting Hachi just like that, I don't know what to say. I'm also getting tired of going around in circles in these topics, sorry.

Specially when Zommari is known for explaining his abilities before using them. Why would Hachi not do something to protect himself as soon as Zommari shows off his gemelos sonido and explains it to him just like he did to Byakuya? ...right here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-299-page-13.html

Also Zommari IS arrogant, him saying: "so if you cannot follow me due to being too shocked, there is no need to feel embarrassed" ...is a perfect example of his arrogance.

UchihaHunter
February 02, 2011, 09:10 PM
Problem is, you guys keep basing your whole argument on the belief that Zommari is the fastest Espada even though Kubo didn't even confirm it, but rather labeled it as a boast. I also can't buy the notion that Zommari would be faster than someone like Stark...
Not sure if you read this the other times it was said, but a boast isn't false by definition.


Stark actually showed way superior base speed, and superior sonido, in my opinion.
Yes, in your opinion.


Heck, you guys think that since Zommari is so fast...he could kill the higher ranked Espada? That doesn't make sense to me. He's only the 7th Espada, come on...
Yea...speed is all that matters in a fight between high-level characters...

Putting aside your sarcasm, the 5th Espada has the toughest Hierro. Is it that hard to imagine the 7th Espada having the fastest Sonido?


Also, like I said earlier... Zommari's gemelos sonido just makes short distance steps moving fast enough between a short distance as he moves from one position to another...that it creates the optical illusion that there are several of him attacking simultaneously. He cannot create real solid clones though. They're just afterimages created by that technique, which Zommari even labeled as a trick to surprise the enemy etc.
Again, his Sonido is claimed to be the fastest among the Espada; there hasn't been anything that said that was a lie. Just because you're impressed by Stark dodging post-battle Ichigo and Kenpachi doesn't mean that Stark is necessarily the fastest.


Hachi also isn't that slow from what we've seen in recent times. I personally think it's ridiculous to assume that Zommari can speed blitz and one-shoot Hachi. Even if Zommari still has a speed advantage...I don't think that it's that much higher that he can easily one-shoot Hachi, specially since the guy can use Kido very fast and with excellent results. Besides, I also don't even see Zommari going immediately for the kill as the fight begins; it doesn't seem to be characteristic of him. He will try to show off first...like he did against Byakuya. Heck remember that when Zommari first did Gemelos Sonido, he first explained it to Byakuya thinking that Byakuya wouldn't have a way to counter. If Zommari does the same here against Hachi, then Hachi will be aware of Zommari's potential speed, thus he would think to put up barriers etc.
I don't think anyone is saying that Hachi would get OHKO'd. We're saying that with his speed, it's entirely possible for Zommari to dodge binding spells and inflict damage. He's an arrancar, so he can use Cero (we are allowed to make this presumption, no?), and he didn't perform poorly against Byakuya in CQC. Considering Hachi isn't really a fighter-type, I don't think he's going to be able to do much against an opponent with that sort of speed and swordplay...

As far as the notes on his personality, then we'll say that Hachi won't go full force with his barriers from the beginning, seeing as how he didn't do that immediately with Barragan. He also won't be instantly walling himself in with barriers to defend against all attacks, since he didn't do that against Barragan. Do you see how silly this is?

Seriously, how many characters do we see go all out from the beginning? The only ones I can remember offhand are Ichigo going at Ulquiorra the time that Ulquiorra punched a hole in him and Chad vs. Noitra. Other than those, I can't think of any fight in which a fighter instantly attacked at full strength against his/her enemy. Of course, those fights didn't end well for the one using full strength either...

Sodalit
February 02, 2011, 09:17 PM
"But Zommari's personality has to be taken into account: the guy is arrogant to the point of deluding himself. Barragan might be worse, but at least he had actual power that somewhat justified his hubris. It's quite likely that Zommari will not take this fight seriously; he'll toy around with Hachi rather than speedblitzing him and killing him when he has the chance."


Despite Zommari's personality, he will not just stand there and wait for Hachi to move. From what I remember, Byakuya was not hostile from the beginning - he was only defending Rukia. They were enemies, but Kuchiki was mainly in defense on the first minutes of the fight. So Zommari had the time to toy with him.
I think that Zommari will be serious and will be reacting to Vizard moves. When Espada see that his opponent is going to kill him, Zommari will try to not let that happen.

I will vote for Zommari, mainly because he is so much faster than Hachi.

El Samurai Guapo
February 02, 2011, 09:46 PM
- Since when are bakudos dodge-able? #61 Creates pillars that appear around the target; it's not something you can escape by moving.

- Just cause Hachi can't move as quickly as Zommari doesn't mean he can't follow the dude with his eyes and react to his attacks. Remember that Hachi also has a hollow mask and a zanpakutou. I consider any of the espada below Grimmjow to be fodder though. This has been the most obvious battle in the tourney so far other than the one that included Momo. Hachigen snaps his fingers and decapitates the guy with a barrier.

Sodalit
February 02, 2011, 09:57 PM
While one of the rules of this tournament says that the combatants will not hold back, it doesn't mean that they will start the fight with their strongest techniques.

Hachi is not brutal enough to cut head of his rival second after fight starts.
He has peaceful mind and is not quarrelsome or openly hostile like Grimmjow or Zaraki.
He will use lethal skills only if he will be forced to.

Raizen
February 02, 2011, 10:23 PM
I doubt he can cut off the head of his opponents. That is ridiculous. The guy is a freaking espada who had enough SP to survive byakuya's bankai.

Jackk
February 02, 2011, 10:24 PM
Not sure if you read this the other times it was said, but a boast isn't false by definition.

Not sure if you read this the other times it was said, but Kubo confirmed Nnoitra's claim of hardest hierro, but then only labeled Zommari's claim of fastest sonido as a boast. Why? Think about it...


Yes, in your opinion.

And it's not unfounded.


Yea...speed is all that matters in a fight between high-level characters...

While speed isn't all that matters... it IS one of the most important stats to have in combat. Being faster than your opponent can give you an easier victory. I can't buy the notion of the 7th Espada being the fastest, sorry.


Putting aside your sarcasm, the 5th Espada has the toughest Hierro. Is it that hard to imagine the 7th Espada having the fastest Sonido?

Hierro is different because it seems to be some innate attribute that all arrancars have, and for some reason Nnoitra's is the hardest. Besides, hierro is just an arrancar's "hard hide" as noted by Yoruichi. I can't see the 7th Espada as being the fastest.


Again, his Sonido is claimed to be the fastest among the Espada; there hasn't been anything that said that was a lie.

Again, he boasted that it was the fastest, and the data book merely labeled it as a boast instead of confirming it as 100% fact, like Nnoitra's hardest hierro was confirmed. Besides, seriously... Zommari is very proud and arrogant, we all know that.


Just because you're impressed by Stark dodging post-battle Ichigo and Kenpachi doesn't mean that Stark is necessarily the fastest.

Dodging? The guy grabbed Orihime from between them and traveled a huge distance back to Aizen's palace, and neither Ichigo nor Kenpachi could do anything. Further, that's not even the only instance in which Stark showed great speed. He also showed great speed against Shunsui, against Ukitake, and against Love too.


I don't think anyone is saying that Hachi would get OHKO'd.

I'm pretty sure I read some people claiming that.


We're saying that with his speed, it's entirely possible for Zommari to dodge binding spells and inflict damage. He's an arrancar, so he can use Cero (we are allowed to make this presumption, no?), and he didn't perform poorly against Byakuya in CQC. Considering Hachi isn't really a fighter-type, I don't think he's going to be able to do much against an opponent with that sort of speed and swordplay...

And we're saying that it's entirely possible that Hachi can catch Zommari with binding spells and well...you know the rest.

As for cero, so what? we didn't even see how strong a cero from Zommari can be...but I doubt it would be that strong; he's only the 7th Espada. Also, if you want to assume Zommari using some sort of cero, then I can assume that Hachi can do the same. Not that I actually think that Hachi needs cero here anyway...


As far as the notes on his personality, then we'll say that Hachi won't go full force with his barriers from the beginning, seeing as how he didn't do that immediately with Barragan. He also won't be instantly walling himself in with barriers to defend against all attacks, since he didn't do that against Barragan. Do you see how silly this is?

And as far as the notes of Zommari's personality, we'll say that he will not attempt to go for the kill immediately. Zommari will explain his gemolos sonido ability first just how he explained it to Byakuya. Zommari plays around too much, and he is arrogant too. Why wouldn't Hachi having time to use barriers and other kido?


Seriously, how many characters do we see go all out from the beginning? The only ones I can remember offhand are Ichigo going at Ulquiorra the time that Ulquiorra punched a hole in him and Chad vs. Noitra. Other than those, I can't think of any fight in which a fighter instantly attacked at full strength against his/her enemy. Of course, those fights didn't end well for the one using full strength either...

That's irrelevant here. Particularly since I'm arguing that Zommari won't be going all out from the start. Nevertheless, I'm also arguing that the fact that he's arrogant and stands there explaining his abilities to his opponent... could certainly play in Hachi's favor since this will give him time to analyze the Espada and plan accordingly. Hachi is very analytical from what we've seen too. And I still don't think his kidou is as slow as some of you seem to think.

AlB
February 03, 2011, 04:15 AM
And as far as the notes of Zommari's personality, we'll say that he will not attempt to go for the kill immediately. Zommari will explain his gemolos sonido ability first just how he explained it to Byakuya. Zommari plays around too much, and he is arrogant too. Why wouldn't Hachi having time to use barriers and other kido?

That's irrelevant here. Particularly since I'm arguing that Zommari won't be going all out from the start. Nevertheless, I'm also arguing that the fact that he's arrogant and stands there explaining his abilities to his opponent... could certainly play in Hachi's favor since this will give him time to analyze the Espada and plan accordingly. Hachi is very analytical from what we've seen too. And I still don't think his kidou is as slow as some of you seem to think.

Absolutely dude! that's exactly what I said earlier. if personalities are playing role on this fight then we must remember how Zommari was delivering his mighty speeches to Byakuya pre- and mid- fight while the first thing Hachi did when Barragan started ranting was encasing old fool into a super ass barrier with a single clap of his hands. ( that cross like barrier)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html

and I don't see how Zommari is going to evade it. it's not like it's Senbonzakura petals or Getsuga Tensho. it spawns around the target immediately

as Raizen told me Hachi doesn't know Zommari's abilities, so what? please do keep in mind guys that Zommari also doesn't know what Hachi is able to do, and I daresay he won't expect oversized fatso capable of such speed in Kidos.
[hr]

I doubt he can cut off the head of his opponents. That is ridiculous. The guy is a freaking espada who had enough SP to survive byakuya's bankai.

oh please, Renji also survived byakuya's bankai :notrust. since when has surviving Byakuya's bankai become some phenomenal feat. and I haven't seen anything even remotely "freaking" in any espada except for Ulq and those that went to FKT.
it's about reiatsu, if Hachi can encase the head in barrier and remove it he'll do it.

and I hope you won't start telling me that Zommari has greater reiatsu than Hachi (not that I'm going to even bother arguing on thier reiatsu levels)
[hr]

- Since when are bakudos dodge-able? #61 Creates pillars that appear around the target; it's not something you can escape by moving.

- Just cause Hachi can't move as quickly as Zommari doesn't mean he can't follow the dude with his eyes and react to his attacks. Remember that Hachi also has a hollow mask and a zanpakutou. I consider any of the espada below Grimmjow to be fodder though. This has been the most obvious battle in the tourney so far other than the one that included Momo. Hachigen snaps his fingers and decapitates the guy with a barrier.

quited for truth!

xXan
February 03, 2011, 04:46 AM
I don't know how relevant this is or if it was said before but i am going to post it.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-301-page-17.html

A hado cast faster then that dude can make rukia cut her head off. So they can be done really fast.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 06:27 AM
I don't know how relevant this is or if it was said before but i am going to post it.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-301-page-17.html

A hado cast faster then that dude can make rukia cut her head off. So they can be done really fast.

In this case, Rukia was standing still.

I think the concept of instantaneous bakudo doesn't make much sense. Even Kira can cast Bakudo 73 without incantation (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-337/06/), does it let Kira bind Zommari (or other people like Komamura) with Bakudo 61 and defeat him easily?

You need to have an opening/distraction to successfully bind someone, this is what the manga suggests, even people who know kido didn't try to bind their opponents from the get-go when these opponents were on guard. Soifon tied up Ggio Vega (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-343-page-20.html) after she hit her, likewise Hisagi tied up Findor after a surprise explosion (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-337-page-14.html).

There are many examples, Byakuya tied up Renji (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-9.html) when Renji was stubbornly trying to use his bankai which he lost control of, Byakuya didn't try to bind Renji immediately after Renji blocked his senka attack, he tried to release his sword instead (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-140-page-17.html).

In TBTP arc, Hachigen bound Mashiro and Kensei when they were fighting other people. Barragan was sending invitations to Hachigen to use his barriers, so he could show off his supposedly invincible powers. Hachigen won't be binding anyone (who is sufficiently fast) in a one-on-one fight if this person is on guard, this is why Hachigen said he wasn't fit for combat. If Hachigen can react to his opponent's attacks and use a hado or something similar to catch Zommari off guard, he can pull off a win but it seems highly unlikely. Zommari wins this one.

AlB
February 03, 2011, 06:32 AM
^ I really hope that you are not trying to compare Kira's, soifon's and byakuya's mastery of low level Kido's to Hachi's mastery. the greater potency of the user the stronger and the faster the kido is why is it so hard to undrerstand? in the links I provided above, in the links Jackk provided it is prefectly clear that Hachi needs less than a second to erect high level Bakudos

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 06:49 AM
^ I really hope that you are not trying to compare Kira's, soifon's and byakuya's mastery of low level Kido's to Hachi's mastery. the greater potency of the user the stronger and the faster the kido is why is it so hard to undrerstand? in the links I provided above, in the links Jackk provided it is prefectly clear that Hachi needs less than a second to erect high level Bakudos

You say "encasing old fool into a super ass barrier with a single clap of his hands", how is it any different than "a single pointing of finger (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-301-page-17.html)"? Has it ever been stated that if your kido skills are better, you cast a spell faster? How do you know Hachigen's Bakudo 61 is faster than Byakuya's or Kira's Bakudo 61?

The only factor is whether you are proficient enough to cast a spell without incantation or not. If you are able to use a kido without incantation, you aren't any slower than other people who can also use the same kido without incantation. (Using incantation makes a kido almost unusable unless your opponent is tied up or a moron.) I'm pretty sure there's no speed difference between Hisagi's hado 11 and Tessai's hado 11, the difference would be in amount of power they can produce.

AlB
February 03, 2011, 07:00 AM
^ I will correct myself. indeed, I'm sorry I phrased it the wrong way. The Kido itself is not faster, the casting/invocation/activation is faster.

and since you brought Tessai up. remember his confrontation with Aizen in TBTP? he cast some insane Hado (88 I think) and Aizen blocked it. now why would one block a Kido if there's a risk that a protection will be breached if one can simply flash step out of the way? perhaps because Kido is too fast? and mind you, that Kido was more like a missile, e.g. it had to travel some distance.
Most of bakudos (1, 66, 73, Hachi's cross which I referenced in the link) do not have to cover distances.
If fast people like Aizen can not avoid kidos that need to travel some distance how to you expect Zommari to avoid Kido that does not have such a requirement and is instantenous?

xXan
February 03, 2011, 07:02 AM
In this case, Rukia was standing still.

I think the concept of instantaneous bakudo doesn't make much sense. Even Kira can cast Bakudo 73 without incantation (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-337/06/), does it let Kira bind Zommari (or other people like Komamura) with Bakudo 61 and defeat him easily?

You need to have an opening/distraction to successfully bind someone, this is what the manga suggests, even people who know kido didn't try to bind their opponents from the get-go when these opponents were on guard. Soifon tied up Ggio Vega (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-343-page-20.html) after she hit her, likewise Hisagi tied up Findor after a surprise explosion (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-337-page-14.html).

There are many examples, Byakuya tied up Renji (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-9.html) when Renji was stubbornly trying to use his bankai which he lost control of, Byakuya didn't try to bind Renji immediately after Renji blocked his senka attack, he tried to release his sword instead (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-140-page-17.html).

In TBTP arc, Hachigen bound Mashiro and Kensei when they were fighting other people. Barragan was sending invitations to Hachigen to use his barriers, so he could show off his supposedly invincible powers. Hachigen won't be binding anyone (who is sufficiently fast) in a one-on-one fight if this person is on guard, this is why Hachigen said he wasn't fit for combat. If Hachigen can react to his opponent's attacks and use a hado or something similar to catch Zommari off guard, he can pull off a win but it seems highly unlikely. Zommari wins this one.

Aizen was able to do that to Koma before he finished his sentence.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-630-14/bleach/chapter-176.html
Koma clearly had time to see him next to him and even ask himself how that happened but still he was unable to hit/evade/whatever him before the kido activated.
If you ask me there where no high level Kido masters to try to do this from the beggining but now we have Hachi here. Also Aizen proved here one can go direcly for this and it works.

Edit even the lvl 99 one can be used on someone moving extremly fast:
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.4/page008.html

Look here:
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.3/page014.html
He used it before Bee-Girl hit the ground from that lip attack.

Using on someone who is in the middle of a fight with another captain.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.3/page016.html
Yes he was not direcly attacked but its clear he can cast it hell fast. Aizen was able to use a Kido before Koma could swing his word...

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 07:45 AM
^ I will correct myself. indeed, I'm sorry I phrased it the wrong way. The Kido itself is not faster, the casting/invocation/activation is faster.

I meant "casting isn't faster". Does any character in the manga suggest that Hachigen or Tessai's kido is faster? It's just that they have access to a wider-array of kido spells. The only way to make a kido faster is to cast it without incantation.


and since you brought Tessai up. remember his confrontation with Aizen in TBTP? he cast some insane Hado (88 I think) and Aizen blocked it. now why would one block a Kido if there's a risk that a protection will be breached if one can simply flash step out of the way? perhaps because Kido is too fast? and mind you, that Kido was more like a missile, e.g. it had to travel some distance.

I didn't get your point. Do you say "if kido was slower, Aizen would have flash-stepped out of the way"? Aizen could have shunpoed away but blocking the spell with danku is cooler, this scene was meant to show Aizen's kido mastery.
[hr]

Aizen was able to do that to Koma before he finished his sentence.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-630-14/bleach/chapter-176.html
Koma clearly had time to see him next to him and even ask himself how that happened but still he was unable to hit/evade/whatever him before the kido activated.

You actually support my point. Aizen successfully used a spell on Komamura by creating an opening which was provided by his zanpakuto ability.


Edit even the lvl 99 one can be used on someone moving extremly fast:
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.4/page008.html

Look here:
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.3/page014.html
He used it before Bee-Girl hit the ground from that lip attack.

Using on someone who is in the middle of a fight with another captain.
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.3/page016.html
Yes he was not direcly attacked but its clear he can cast it hell fast. Aizen was able to use a Kido before Koma could swing his word...

Will Hachigen have Shinji, Love, Rose and Lisa by his side in this fight? Who will distract Zommari to create an opening for Hachigen? Will Zommari be in a mindless rage? As I said, you need a distraction to bind someone and this is why Hachigen is more suited to fight alongside other people rather than by himself.

xXan
February 03, 2011, 07:54 AM
I meant "casting isn't faster". Does any character in the manga suggest that Hachigen or Tessai's kido is faster? It's just that they have access to a wider-array of kido spells. The only way to make a kido faster is to cast it without incantation.



I didn't get your point. Do you say "if kido was slower, Aizen would have flash-stepped out of the way"? Aizen could have shunpoed away but blocking the spell with danku is cooler, this scene was meant to show Aizen's kido mastery.
<hr noshade size="1">


You actually support my point. Aizen successfully used a spell on Komamura by creating an opening which was provided by his zanpakuto ability.



Will Hachigen have Shinji, Love, Rose and Lisa by his side in this fight? Who will distract Zommari to create an opening for Hachigen? Will Zommari be in a mindless rage? As I said, you need a distraction to bind someone and this is why Hachigen is more suited to fight alongside other people rather than by himself.

You probably missed the part where Aizen used one before Koma was able to swing his sword so its irrelevant what you just said. When i can bind you before you can get 2 meters of me its irrelevant who was fighting who.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 07:58 AM
You probably missed the part where Aizen used one before Koma was able to swing his sword so its irrelevant what you just said. When i can bind you before you can get 2 meters of me its irrelevant who was fighting who.

How is it irrelevant? Komamura was trying to figure out what had happened and then it was too late. Look:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-630-14/bleach/chapter-176.html

Komamura says "Aizen was just standing next to Tousen" and then he gets hit.

UchihaHunter
February 03, 2011, 09:22 AM
Not sure if you read this the other times it was said, but Kubo confirmed Nnoitra's claim of hardest hierro, but then only labeled Zommari's claim of fastest sonido as a boast. Why? Think about it...
A boast isn't necessarily false just because it's a boast...think about it...


While speed isn't all that matters... it IS one of the most important stats to have in combat. Being faster than your opponent can give you an easier victory. I can't buy the notion of the 7th Espada being the fastest, sorry.
Considering that the Espada were ranked by reiatsu, not combat ability, I don't see how you can't see the 7th Espada as the fastest. Soi Fong is one of the fastest captains, yet her reiatsu is not the highest, nor is it anywhere near the highest.


Hierro is different because it seems to be some innate attribute that all arrancars have, and for some reason Nnoitra's is the hardest. Besides, hierro is just an arrancar's "hard hide" as noted by Yoruichi. I can't see the 7th Espada as being the fastest.
If by "for some reason," you mean because Kubo said so, then yes, for some reason Nnoitra's is the hardest. Aren't you one of those that argues that Kubo doesn't have characters say things that don't mean anything? So...why would he have Zommari say that if it wasn't true? Why would Byakuya be forced to use Cicada if it wasn't true? We've seen Byakuya's speed hyped up for a while.


Again, he boasted that it was the fastest, and the data book merely labeled it as a boast instead of confirming it as 100% fact, like Nnoitra's hardest hierro was confirmed. Besides, seriously... Zommari is very proud and arrogant, we all know that.
Yea, it's prideful and arrogant to consider yourself equal to the very opponents you were created to fight...

Ignoring the boast thing because you seem mentally incapable of understanding my point regarding the word. He took pride in his speed because he was fast. He took pride in Amor probably because we haven't seen any Espada use bakudo. Both are pretty broken abilities.


Dodging? The guy grabbed Orihime from between them and traveled a huge distance back to Aizen's palace, and neither Ichigo nor Kenpachi could do anything.
Oh! Neither battle-worn Ichigo nor Kenpachi could do anything! Oh shit!


Further, that's not even the only instance in which Stark showed great speed. He also showed great speed against Shunsui, against Ukitake, and against Love too.
It was speed so great that he couldn't win...


I'm pretty sure I read some people claiming that.
I think you've been here long enough to recognize when people are actually attempting valid arguments and when people are talking out of their ass. Honestly, I haven't read every single response, but no one thinking sensibly would think that Zommari would OHKO Hachi at the beginning of the fight. If that point was being made, it was probably because people were saying Hachi would OHKO Zommari at the beginning of the fight.


As for cero, so what? we didn't even see how strong a cero from Zommari can be...but I doubt it would be that strong; he's only the 7th Espada. Also, if you want to assume Zommari using some sort of cero, then I can assume that Hachi can do the same. Not that I actually think that Hachi needs cero here anyway...
The point is that he can attack from range from different directions quickly. Even if we assume that he doesn't have cero (which makes 0 sense), he can attack in CQC from different directions quickly. The point isn't that he'd be able to OHKO Hachi, it's that he's got the speed to take the initiative in the fight.


And as far as the notes of Zommari's personality, we'll say that he will not attempt to go for the kill immediately. Zommari will explain his gemolos sonido ability first just how he explained it to Byakuya. Zommari plays around too much, and he is arrogant too. Why wouldn't Hachi having time to use barriers and other kido?
My god. Do you not see that Zommari did that in response to Byakuya's personality? Similar to how Ulquiorra said things to Ichigo probably weren't necessarily true. Honestly, if Ulqui had R2 back when he first punched a hole in Ichigo, I don't think Harribel was stronger than him. Him saying what he said regarding there being 3 others above him either was referencing Yammy or was being said to instill despair in Ichigo. Even when fighting Ichigo later, he was trying to make Ichigo feel despair and feel defeated, rather than actually trying to defeat Ichigo. He wanted Ichigo to admit defeat before he killed him. Zommari explained things to Byakuya because he wanted to punish him for his arrogance. He was clearly annoyed because of Byakuya's personality. Hachi is the most polite of the Vaizards, and possibly the most polite being we've seen in the manga. I don't see how he would push Zommari's buttons, when the only reason he pushed Barragan's was because Barragan was arrogant as hell.


That's irrelevant here. Particularly since I'm arguing that Zommari won't be going all out from the start. Nevertheless, I'm also arguing that the fact that he's arrogant and stands there explaining his abilities to his opponent... could certainly play in Hachi's favor since this will give him time to analyze the Espada and plan accordingly. Hachi is very analytical from what we've seen too. And I still don't think his kidou is as slow as some of you seem to think.
1. It's relevant because a lot of people on the side of Hachi seem to think this is a 30sec curbstomp in favor of Hachi. So I'm arguing that neither character is going to be breaking out the big guns immediately.

2. Zommari isn't arrogant.

3. You can talk while using your abilities, Zommari did it.

xXan
February 03, 2011, 09:56 AM
How is it irrelevant? Komamura was trying to figure out what had happened and then it was too late. Look:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-630-14/bleach/chapter-176.html

Komamura says "Aizen was just standing next to Tousen" and then he gets hit.

Are you joking? It is clear Koma get's to see Aizen before he begins castig his Kido he even has time to think "how that happened" but he still has no time to react. THAT IS RIGHT, he had no time to react before Aizen used that Kido RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM at some 10 cm. These are captains, they anticipate (just like Byakuya in his fight with Zommari but still got hit by love tech and that is something like Kido).
If Aizen can do it then Hachi can do it to.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 10:22 AM
Are you joking? It is clear Koma get's to see Aizen before he begins castig his Kido he even has time to think "how that happened" but he still has no time to react. THAT IS RIGHT, he had no time to react before Aizen used that Kido RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM at some 10 cm. These are captains, they anticipate (just like Byakuya in his fight with Zommari but still got hit by love tech and that is something like Kido).
If Aizen can do it then Hachi can do it to.

So you say Aizen's illusion trick didn't create an opening which helped Aizen cast a spell to take down Komamura? Aizen's KS was the sole reason why this attack succeeded, this is crystal clear.

Raizen
February 03, 2011, 11:53 AM
as Raizen told me Hachi doesn't know Zommari's abilities, so what? please do keep in mind guys that Zommari also doesn't know what Hachi is able to do, and I daresay he won't expect oversized fatso capable of such speed in Kidos.
<hr noshade size="1">

oh please, Renji also survived byakuya's bankai :notrust. since when has surviving Byakuya's bankai become some phenomenal feat. and I haven't seen anything even remotely "freaking" in any espada except for Ulq and those that went to FKT.
it's about reiatsu, if Hachi can encase the head in barrier and remove it he'll do it.

and I hope you won't start telling me that Zommari has greater reiatsu than Hachi (not that I'm going to even bother arguing on thier reiatsu levels)
But what can hacchi do right off the bat? He can create a wall of kido but zomari can quickly bypass it. Zomari has the greater element of surprise. His speed was so great it took even someone like byakuya, who is used to high speed fights, by surprise.

Renji has been shown to be veery durable. The guy has taken injuries after injuries in a fight and still keep going. he is the weaker version of endurance crazed ichigo.

If u seriously think that hacchi can go around chopping off espada level opponent's heads off, then i have nothing more to say to u :notrust

xXan
February 03, 2011, 12:03 PM
So you say Aizen's illusion trick didn't create an opening which helped Aizen cast a spell to take down Komamura? Aizen's KS was the sole reason why this attack succeeded, this is crystal clear.

Again are you joking? That ilusion was used to stop Koma from using his bankai. Koma was able to see him BEFORE he used his Kido in MELEE range and only had the time to think how that happened. Now can you show me where Aizen used his ilusion between the time he charged his Kido and using it?
Do you realy think if he had the time to swing his sword he prefered just to contemplate on what is happening?

Used ilusion-> got in close->Koma get's to see him->Aizen charges Kido->Koma just sits there->Kido hits him.

Raizen
February 03, 2011, 12:08 PM
Again are you joking? That ilusion was used to stop Koma from using his bankai. Koma was able to see him BEFORE he used his Kido in MELEE range and only had the time to think how that happened. Now can you show me where Aizen used his ilusion between the time he charged his Kido and using it?
Do you realy think if he had the time to swing his sword he prefered just to contemplate on what is happening?

Used ilusion-> got in close->Koma get's to see him->Aizen charges Kido->Koma just sits there->Kido hits him.
In ALL the times aizen uses his KS, it is to catch the opponents off guard.
When he used it against koma, koma was dumbfounded about what happened. He was clearly open for attack. Aizen used that time to csat his kido.

If hitting an opponent with a bakudo or blast spell is so easy, why not have all the captains focus on only kido since people here seems to think it is ownage. Rather, the captains all try to be rounded because kido is not a sure thing. Even hacchi stated he is not equip for fighting- why? Because kido can only get u so far

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 12:13 PM
@xXan:

I'm not joking but you just don't understand me. That illusion put Komamura in a state of surprise, there was an Aizen near Tousen and then there was another Aizen near him. While Komamura was trying to figure out what was going on, Aizen hit him.

Aizen's KS created an opening in this instance because Komamura didn't know how there were two Aizens, Komamura wasn't aware of Aizen's ability. If you still don't understand why this is an opening, I don't know how I can explain it in simpler terms.

Tsukisama
February 03, 2011, 12:17 PM
Please try to remain on-topic. Your posts need to focus on Zommari vs Hacchi. If you want to discuss an aspect of something else in great detail, please use the Hangout Thread.

xXan
February 03, 2011, 12:34 PM
@xXan:

I'm not joking but you just don't understand me. That illusion put Komamura in a state of surprise, there was an Aizen near Tousen and then there was another Aizen near him. While Komamura was trying to figure out what was going on, Aizen hit him.

Aizen's KS created an opening in this instance because Komamura didn't know how there were two Aizens, Komamura wasn't aware of Aizen's ability. If you still don't understand why this is an opening, I don't know how I can explain it in simpler terms.

That distraction was to stop Koma to use his bankai and get in close. Now i just can't belive an experienced captain would just sit there and look at Aizen and let himself get hit no matter how stupefied he was.


Please try to remain on-topic. Your posts need to focus on Zommari vs Hacchi. If you want to discuss an aspect of something else in great detail, please use the Hangout Thread.

We where discusion how fast you can use Kido in a battle. This is relevant to the discusion at hand.

exacta
February 03, 2011, 12:37 PM
Zommari's speed unreleased would be too much for Hachi. He could catch Hachi off guard like he did with Byakuya, and unlike Byakuya he wouldn't have any shunpo techniques to save him. So I give it to Zommari.

Tsukisama
February 03, 2011, 12:52 PM
We where discusion how fast you can use Kido in a battle. This is relevant to the discusion at hand.

If a post is made where the names of Hachigen and Zommari do not appear at all, it is definitely off-topic and will be deleted.

Raizen
February 03, 2011, 12:56 PM
The distraction was meant to leave komamura wide open, which it did.

We have seen KS being used this way a few times. Again hitsu, against shunsui, shinji, soifon, and hitsu again. His KS is perfect for leaving his opponent wide open if they can't control their emotions

xXan
February 03, 2011, 01:01 PM
If a post is made where the names of Hachigen and Zommari do not appear at all, it is definitely off-topic and will be deleted.

This does not make much sense at all.
People argue that Hach does not have the time to cast any kido because Zommari is to fast. Now what i wanted to find is a instance where someone uses a Kido in battle at high speed to make it valid for Hachi to be able to seal Zommari even with his speed.
Now where is the off topic in that? I really think you need to read what we are talking about and not just look for those 2 names in a post.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 01:20 PM
@ xXan:

Believe it or not, this is what happened. Characters in the manga need an opening/distraction to use kido on their opponents. Either that or your opponent has to severely underestimate you and let his guard down. Even Yamamoto, the captain-commander who cast the highest level hado to date without incantation, didn't try to use bakudo on WW.

In that sense, I don't see Hachigen being able to bind Zommari unless Zommari underestimates him. Does Zommari underestimate Hachigen? Perhaps. But if he doesn't, Zommari can finish off Hachigen using his speed which forced even Byakuya to use utsusemi. Even VCs are able to cast these binding spells, espada-level opponents can certainly dodge them.

Tsukisama
February 03, 2011, 01:28 PM
This does not make much sense at all.
People argue that Hach does not have the time to cast any kido because Zommari is to fast. Now what i wanted to find is a instance where someone uses a Kido in battle at high speed to make it valid for Hachi to be able to seal Zommari even with his speed.
Now where is the off topic in that? I really think you need to read what we are talking about and not just look for those 2 names in a post.

I have read all of the posts, and I still feel as though this discussion is beginning to focus less on Zommari and Hachigen and more on what happened in Aizen vs Komamura.

Tangential discussions can occur, but they need to be done in moderation. When a discussion gets to the point where the names of the combatants are not being mentioned, then you are focusing too much on the tangential aspect. All of these discussions need to directly relate to the match at hand.

Aizen used KS on Komamura and then followed with Kurohitsugi (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v20/c176/14.html). Komamura is clearly confused about what is occurring, and taking advantage of the moment of confusion, Aizen casts the spell, which presumably takes as long to cast as it does to say the name (meaning almost no charge time). I imagine that one could say other things about this, but it makes the situation not an ideal standard on which to base comparison for reaction time to kidou being cast.

If you have more to discuss on Aizen vs Komamura, please use the hangout thread. I'm sorry if you feel differently, but please accept the decision.

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 03:36 PM
I think the main problem is that when you bring up another situation to use as proof, there's a pretty good chance the other side will disagree with you immediately. Most of us here arguing don't forget such simple scenes, and if the other person DID interpret it the same way you did, well, there would be no need to bring it up in the first place.

There's kind of an automatic disagreement people have to do when an example is brought up :P

AlB
February 03, 2011, 04:00 PM
I meant "casting isn't faster". Does any character in the manga suggest that Hachigen or Tessai's kido is faster? It's just that they have access to a wider-array of kido spells. The only way to make a kido faster is to cast it without incantation.

out of all characters in Bleach Hachi is the only one who has performed insanely high level kido without even saying its name
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html
so I say yes he does cast kidos and barriers faster than everybody else


I didn't get your point. Do you say "if kido was slower, Aizen would have flash-stepped out of the way"? Aizen could have shunpoed away but blocking the spell with danku is cooler, this scene was meant to show Aizen's kido mastery.


that's exactly what I'm saying. and if you are taking plot devices into consideration allow me to respond appropriately:
Instead of trying to pull out smth like this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-174-page-27.html) (not that he can lol) he will start with introducing his name, number, parents, siblings, ideals, logics, hobbies, etc and while he is at it, Hachi will do something like this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html)

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 04:05 PM
that's exactly what I'm saying. and if you are taking plot devices into consideration allow me to respond appropriately:
Instead of trying to pull out smth like this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-174-page-27.html) (not that he can lol) he will start with introducing his name, number, parents, siblings, ideals, logics, hobbies, etc and while he is at it, Hachi will do something like this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html)

lol so they both have page load errors and die? I like it! :amuse

Aww, you fixed it!

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 04:12 PM
oh dude that was hilarious :XD

Hahaha, I like the original version better :tem

I had forgotten about that. I betcha it's actually his Orihime-like power, and not Kido at all.

That being said, on the page before that one, he claps his hands together, then light appears, then the barriers do. I don't think it's really any more instantaneous than Kido. (especially since some of them come out damn fast)

Again though, Zommari was able to clone his way out of multiple sword strikes, and a Byakurai at point blank range. Point blank range dodges aren't easy, ask Aizen...

AlB
February 03, 2011, 04:19 PM
Hahaha, I like the original version better :tem

sorry :p


I had forgotten about that. I betcha it's actually his Orihime-like power, and not Kido at all.

even worse for Zommari lol


That being said, on the page before that one, he claps his hands together, then light appears, then the barriers do. I don't think it's really any more instantaneous than Kido. (especially since some of them come out damn fast)

well, we don't know that. in Anime barrier appeared the moment he clapped his hands. that's why I said that nobody short of Aizen/Yama/Yoruichi/Soifon (maybe Shun and WW) would be able to avoid that kind of sh*t.


Again though, Zommari was able to clone his way out of multiple sword strikes, and a Byakurai at point blank range. Point blank range dodges aren't easy, ask Aizen...

yeah but the blade travels a certain trajectory to connect with an object as do majority of Kidos. I'm basing my arguments on the fact that Hachi's Bakudas and Barriers (the one I linked espacially) are instantenous, they are not trajectory/distance-traveling types, for the lack of better description.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 04:22 PM
out of all characters in Bleach Hachi is the only one who has performed insanely high level kido without even saying its name
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html
so I say yes he does cast kidos and barriers faster than everybody else

The thing is Barragan is not a reliable benchmark to gauge Hachigen's kido casting speed, Barragan had no intention of dodging Hachigen's barriers. And manga frames don't have time counters on them, which makes it impossible to know whether Byakuya's bakudo 61 or Hachigen's barrier kido is faster in this particular situation. The only foolproof way would be by the statement of a manga character like "Wow, this guy casts spells faster than anyone I've seen, it's almost impossible to dodge."

There's no such concept as "faster kido casting" in the manga. For example, IMO both Rukia and Hachigen cast Bakudo #1 in the same amount of time, nobody in the manga suggested that you can improve your casting speed. Not until now.


that's exactly what I'm saying. and if you are taking plot devices into consideration allow me to respond appropriately:
Instead of trying to pull out smth like this (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-174-page-27.html) (not that he can lol) he will start with introducing his name, number, parents, siblings, ideals, logics, hobbies, etc and while he is at it, Hachi will do something like http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html ("[url)this[/URL]

So it boils down to whether Zommari will underestimate Hachigen or not. I think he won't.

AlB
February 03, 2011, 04:27 PM
The thing is Barragan is not a reliable benchmark to gauge Hachigen's kido casting speed, Barragan had no intention of dodging Hachigen's barriers. And manga frames don't have time counters on them, which makes it impossible to know whether Byakuya's bakudo 61 or Hachigen's barrier kido is faster in this particular situation. The only foolproof way would be by the statement of a manga character like "Wow, this guy casts spells faster than anyone I've seen, it's almost impossible to dodge."

There's no such concept as "faster kido casting" in the manga. For example, IMO both Rukia and Hachigen cast Bakudo #1 in the same amount of time, nobody in the manga suggested that you can improve your casting speed. Not until now.

I never said to gauge his performance against Zommari, what I said is that he doesn't even need to pronounce a name of extremely advanced binding spell and this increases his casting speed. come on man! here you go again about faster kidos. I'm saying that he can cast high-tier Bakudos with a simple clap of hands and nothing more!


So it boils down to whether Zommari will underestimate Hachigen or not. I think he won't.

it doesn't. it boiled down to whether we accept that plot devices work here or not (which we arrived at from your previous post). and if they do... Hachi will cut Zommari's head off while the latter is inviting him for a cup of coffee.

and introducing one's self does not mean that one underestimates his/her opponent.

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 04:48 PM
well, we don't know that. in Anime barrier appeared the moment he clapped his hands. that's why I said that nobody short of Aizen/Yama/Yoruichi/Soifon (maybe Shun and WW) would be able to avoid that kind of sh*t.

The anime also showed KTM being several seconds slower than Komamura :darn So F the anime :amuse

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 05:00 PM
I never said to gauge his performance against Zommari, what I said is that he doesn't even need to pronounce a name of extremely advanced binding spell and this increases his casting speed. come on man! here you go again about faster kidos. I'm saying that he can cast high-tier Bakudos with a simple clap of hands and nothing more!

Not with a simple clap of hands. After Hachigen claps his hands, something starts forming on his hands (top frame (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html)) and only after it finishes forming, the barrier encloses his opponent (bottom right frame (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-20.html)). I can easily argue that saying "Bakudo 61" takes less time than that.

[Edit] Takahashi already pointed this out, I must have missed his post.

And it's your opinion that this is an extremely advanced binding spell, bakudo 61 at least stops the movement of the opponent, this kind of barrier lets Barragan use his axe to attack the barrier. Hachigen already said that making strong barriers takes time, Hiyori sent Shinji flying through one of Hachigen's barriers, I don't think such barrier would be enough to stop an espada-level opponent. (assuming that Hachigen can trap Zommari in it)


it doesn't. it boiled down to whether we accept that plot devices work here or not (which we arrived at from your previous post). and if they do... Hachi will cut Zommari's head off while the latter is inviting him for a cup of coffee.

and introducing one's self does not mean that one underestimates his/her opponent.

I don't understand what you're referring to, what plot devices? How will Hachigen cut Zommari's head off? The difference between a Menos Grande and an espada is huge, Hachigen didn't even try to cut Barragan's head off because he knew it would be useless.

AlB
February 03, 2011, 05:30 PM
I don't understand what you're referring to, what plot devices?

this:


I didn't get your point. Do you say "if kido was slower, Aizen would have flash-stepped out of the way"? Aizen could have shunpoed away but blocking the spell with danku is cooler, this scene was meant to show Aizen's kido mastery.


your words make the scene look like a plot device. Aizen blocked and not shunpo away becasue
I. he wasn't fast enough to evade
II. the scene was meant to show Aizen's mastery of Kido e.g. plot device to hype aizen

if we go by I, then monsters like Aizen can't evade distance-traveling kidos therefore ants like Zommari can't evade instantenous bakudo from Hachi

if we go by II, then Hachi removes Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra (name, number, ideals, intentions, etc)

you go with II. I say: by all means :amuse

[hr]

The anime also showed KTM being several seconds slower than Komamura :darn So F the anime :amuse

really? wow :blink ok, F it lol. but that means we should drop this discussion, nowway to know for sure and all we'll do is interpret the action in the manner it will suit us. :p

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 05:37 PM
really? wow :blink ok, F it lol. but that means we should drop this discussion, nowway to know for sure and all we'll do is interpret the action in the manner it will suit us. :p

:amuse

That's very true. Granted, every one of these fights is due to interpretation, but with cases like this, I don't think anyone can really prove anything definitive with only a few panels to go on.

Jackk
February 03, 2011, 05:39 PM
Hachigen already said that making strong barriers takes time

I will argue that it must depend on the type of barrier if that's the case.

I mean, the pretty much instantaneous barrier that Hachi did with a clap of his hands to encase Barrigan must have been very strong, otherwise...why would Hachi say: "If you can't touch me, then there's nothing to fear, is there?" ....I think it's obvious that Hachi thought that he had Barragan trapped in there; Hachi didn't think that the Espada #2 could brake out of that barrier with sheer force (do remember that Hachi had already even seen Barragan in action against Soifon so he did know Barragan's strength). I mean, look at Hachi's shocked expression on the next page http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-381-page-21.html ...Hachi sees Barragan getting out by aging the barrier with respira.


I don't think such barrier would be enough to stop an espada-level opponent

If Hachi believed that Barragan wasn't going to be able to get out of that barrier with sheer force (and Barragan, in fact, didn't use sheer force; he used respira which shocked Hachi), then I don't see how Espada #7 who's significantly weaker than Espada #2 in terms of reiatsu...is going to be able to get out of that barrier by simply breaking it with sheer force.


I don't understand what you're referring to, what plot devices? How will Hachigen cut Zommari's head off? The difference between a Menos Grande and an espada is huge, Hachigen didn't even try to cut Barragan's head off because he knew it would be useless.

-Getting close to barragan to cut off his head is completely out of the question; you need to keep your distance. And encasing his head with a barrier in order to then decapitate him similar to what he did to the Menos grande...would also not work because Barragan's respira would have aged the small barrier in his head really quick. Mind I'm not really claiming that Hachi could have decapitated him easily if the guy didn't have respira; that move with the barriers that Hachi pulled may not work on opponents with such high reiatsu, but then that's when my next point would become relevant.

-Yes, the difference between a Menos grande and an espada is quite large, but the difference between Espada #2 and Espada #7 is quite large in terms of reiatsu as well, and battles in Bleach are battles of reiatsu.




Aizen blocked and not shunpo away because

I. he wasn't fast enough to evade
II. the scene was meant to show Aizen's mastery of Kido e.g. plot device to hype aizen

if we go by I, then monsters like Aizen can't evade distance-traveling kidos therefore ants like Zommari can't evade instantaneous bakudo from Hachi

if we go by II, then Hachi removes Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra (name, number, ideals, intentions, etc)

you go with II. I say: by all means :amuse

Well played :toc

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 05:53 PM
@Jackk

I disagree with that for two reason:

1. Hachi was focusing on sealing Barragan's ability to age things. The fact that he did it so fast shows that he didn't want to get a "faster than Soi Fon Respira" in his face. I doubt it was created with power in mind, but simply, with the purpose of complete coverage to ensure no death breath was going to leak out towards him.

2. If Hachi can just lop the head off of the number 7 Espada with the fastest Sonido with ease (who was able to outspeed Byakuya), then I guess Hachi beats most captains in a matter of seconds?

Being a powerful Shinigami requires mastery in a lot of different areas. What you are saying right here, is that Kido aone can trump superior speed, power, and swordsmanship not only with ease, but 100% of the time.

Jackk
February 03, 2011, 06:02 PM
@Jackk

I disagree with that for two reason:

1. Hachi was focusing on sealing Barragan's ability to age things. The fact that he did it so fast shows that he didn't want to get a "faster than Soi Fon Respira" in his face. I doubt it was created with power in mind, but simply, with the purpose of complete coverage to ensure no death breath was going to leak out towards him.

2. If Hachi can just lop the head off of the number 7 Espada with the fastest Sonido with ease (who was able to outspeed Byakuya), then I guess Hachi beats most captains in a matter of seconds?

1. Hachi wanted to trap Barragan so that he didn't touch him. He didn't say that he was going to "buy time." Again, if that's not the case then why would Hachi say: "If you can't touch me, then there's nothing to fear, is there?" ? If Barragan could just easily break out of that barrier with sheer force... then what Hachi did would have been completely pointless. Hachi believed that he had Barragan trapped because he also believed that Kido could stop respira, but Barragan proved him wrong in that regard.

2.

-Zommari doesn't have the fastest Sonido. It's a mere boast. Call me when Stark admits that he's slower than Zommari.

-Zommari didn't "outspeed" Byakuya. More afterimages does not necessarily equal greater speed. Heck Zommari never landed a hit on Byakuya when he used gemelos sonido. Remember Zommari even stated it's just a technique to surprise the enemy; it's an optical illusion since there really aren't 5 real clones fighting along side the original.

-Also, Zommari is weak in terms of reiatsu; he's only the 7th Espada.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 06:07 PM
II. the scene was meant to show Aizen's mastery of Kido e.g. plot device to hype aizen

...

if we go by II, then Hachi removes Zommari's head while the latter is reciting his mantra (name, number, ideals, intentions, etc)

If only things were that simple. :D

@ Jackk:

You have a point, perhaps the barrier was strong because it was relatively small but the scene also suggests that Hachigen couldn't do anything while Barragan was trapped in the barrier. Hachigen said "If you can't touch me, there's nothing to fear" as if he was planning to keep Barragan in the barrier for a while and Hachigen's hands also seemed to be tied with this light thingy. It would be a stalemate until Barragan eventually forced his way out.

Since Hachigen didn't think that respira could age his barriers, there was no reason for him not to try to decapitate Barragan (instead of enclosing him). Using this method was obviously out of question against a strong opponent. I think the reiatsu difference between espada #7 and a menos grande is relatively much larger than the difference between espada #2 and espada #7.

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 06:10 PM
1. Hachi wanted to trap Barragan so that he didn't touch him. He didn't say that he was going to "buy time." Again, if that's not the case then why would Hachi say: "If you can't touch me, then there's nothing to fear, is there?" ? If Barragan could just easily break out of that barrier with sheer force... then what Hachi did would have been completely pointless. Hachi believed that he had Barragan trapped because he also believed that Kido could stop respira, but Barragan proved him wrong in that regard.

What? I said nothing about buying time. Also, you said it right there that Hachi believed Barragan was trapped because he believed Kido could stop Respira. Seeing as Respira is his number 1 concern, and the axe was never even used, it makes perfect sense to say that Hachi made a barrier with the purpose of sealing Respira. No one said anything about the strength of the barrier, because if Hachi was right, and Kido doesn't age, then making a barrier of any strength would stop Respira. Barragan is very much a one trick pony.



-Zommari doesn't have the fastest Sonido. It's a mere boast. Call me when Stark admits that he's slower than Zommari.

I will address this one last time. A boast is not the same as a lie at ALL.

Boast: An act of speaking with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities.

Call me when we find out that "boast" was a mistranslation.


Zommari didn't "outspeed" Byakuya. Also, Zommari is weak in terms of reiatsu; he's only the 7th Espada.

Didn't he? He used his Gemeleos Sonido to beat Byakuya and catch him. He used a speed technique. But it was due to speed nonetheless.

Gran Maestro
February 03, 2011, 06:34 PM
I will address this one last time. A boast is not the same as a lie at ALL.

Boast: An act of speaking with excessive pride and self-satisfaction about one's achievements, possessions, or abilities.

Call me when we find out that "boast" was a mistranslation.

"Boast" wasn't a mistranslation, the exact word is hokoru (誇る) which means "to boast, to be proud of". Basically Zommari was proud of his sonido and going by the feats, he had every right to do so. Stark was also fast, almost as fast as Zommari but I don't think we have enough manga info that suggests Stark was undeniably faster than Zommari.

In that sense, it's almost impossible for Hachigen to bind Zommari. IMO Hachigen can't trap even relatively slower captains like Komamura or Mayuri because I don't believe kido works in such a way that you can't dodge it. The captains didn't even try to bind their espada opponents and I'm pretty sure they know binding spells, they would have tried to do so if things were that easy. Only Rukia managed to bind Aaroniero due to Aaroniero's severe underestimation of Rukia after Aaroniero already dodged a closer kido attack.

Takahashi
February 03, 2011, 06:39 PM
@Gran

Yeah, I never thought it was. I was just responding with the same thing Jackk did when he told me to call him when Starrk says he's slower than Zommari.

Thanks for the confirmation though.

Jackk
February 03, 2011, 07:07 PM
@ Jackk:

You have a point, perhaps the barrier was strong because it was relatively small but the scene also suggests that Hachigen couldn't do anything while Barragan was trapped in the barrier. Hachigen said "If you can't touch me, there's nothing to fear" as if he was planning to keep Barragan in the barrier for a while and Hachigen's hands also seemed to be tied with this light thingy. It would be a stalemate until Barragan eventually forced his way out.

I don't know... it was never actually said that Hachi couldn't do anything at that point;however, I suppose it may be a possibility. Now, even then... let's assume that you're right, then wouldn't that still buy Hachi time to think things through against Zommari at bare minimum? Stopping your opponent for some time isn't really a stupid idea, and Hachi seems to be very analytical.


Since Hachigen didn't think that respira could age his barriers, there was no reason for him not to try to decapitate Barragan (instead of enclosing him). Using this method was obviously out of question against a strong opponent.

Yeah, that's a valid point. And right before you made your post, I did do a quick edit in my previous post...clarifying that I wasn't really claiming that Hachi could have decapitated Barragan with a barrier if he didn't have respira, since it may not work on people with such high reiatsu. Not sure if you saw that after I edited the post; probably not, but I suppose that's not exactly your fault.


I think the reiatsu difference between espada #7 and a menos grande is relatively much larger than the difference between espada #2 and espada #7.

Perhaps, but who knows... I guess it's all speculation, but there is a pretty large difference in reiatsu between Espada #2 and #7. And it was highly suggested by Ulquiorra that Espadas 4 and above have significantly higher reiatsu than the rest.


What? I said nothing about buying time. Also, you said it right there that Hachi believed Barragan was trapped because he believed Kido could stop Respira. Seeing as Respira is his number 1 concern, and the axe was never even used, it makes perfect sense to say that Hachi made a barrier with the purpose of sealing Respira. No one said anything about the strength of the barrier, because if Hachi was right, and Kido doesn't age, then making a barrier of any strength would stop Respira. Barragan is very much a one trick pony.

How can he make a barrier to seal respira? He made a barrier to seal BARRAGAN. Yes, so that he wouldn't go using respira on him...but to stop that you need to seal the user of respira, which is Barragan. Hachi clearly made a barrier that completely enclosed Barragan, seriously... and he didn't believe that Barragan could get out; that barrier must have logically been strong.


I will address this one last time. A boast is not the same as a lie at ALL.

A boast can be a lie though. Also, I will address this one last time. The data book actually very explicitly said that Nnoitra did, in fact, had the hardest hierro... it didn't say that Nnoitra boasts that he has the hardest hierro. Keeping that in mind, why didn't just Kubo make it clear like that for Zommari's claim? At bare minimum it makes Zommari's statements questionable. Further, as I've said many times before...I really can't buy the notion of the 7th Espada being faster than Stark; not only is stark #1 Espada but he also showed very impressive speed. In addition, creating afterimages =/= being faster than someone who travels huge distances with his sonido or becomes completely invisible for a moment as he appears in a different position surprising the likes of Shunsui, Ukitake, and Love.


Call me when we find out that "boast" was a mistranslation.

I would say "call me when we see Zommari actually hitting someone with his superior speed" ...but then that's not really possible seeing as the guy is currently dead. :p


Didn't he? He used his Gemeleos Sonido to beat Byakuya and catch him. He used a speed technique. But it was due to speed nonetheless.

No. Zommari used Gemelos sonido and he was not able to beat nor catch Byakuya. I think you need to recheck chapter 299. And again, you're placing way too much emphasis on the afterimages... showing that you can produce afterimages with a specialized technique does not mean you're faster than everyone else, specially when you can't even land your hits on your opponent...

AlB
February 04, 2011, 03:15 AM
"Boast" wasn't a mistranslation, the exact word is hokoru (誇る) which means "to boast, to be proud of". Basically Zommari was proud of his sonido and going by the feats, he had every right to do so. Stark was also fast, almost as fast as Zommari but I don't think we have enough manga info that suggests Stark was undeniably faster than Zommari.


While Jackk's post covers it I still want to add my two chips. Bankai Ichigo and Kenpachi without an eye-patch were not able to follow Stark's movements. there was a moment were Love couldn't track his movements and even Shunsui had trouble catching him in surprise attacks. and you are you saying that Zommari can accomplish such feats? We have Primera and Septima, tell me please, why on earth should anyone be searching for a proof that Primera (with stark's track record) is faster than Septima? it should be the other way round pal ;)
[hr]

You're asking for the impossible there.

amen to that, brother :D still, the hope dies last.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 05:16 AM
^all right then. let it be like this:

this:


I didn't get your point. Do you say "if kido was slower, Aizen would have flash-stepped out of the way"? Aizen could have shunpoed away but blocking the spell with danku is cooler, this scene was meant to show Aizen's kido mastery.
<hr noshade size="1">


your words make the scene look like a plot device. Aizen blocked and not shunpo away becasue
I. he wasn't fast enough to evade
II. the scene was meant to show Aizen's mastery of Kido e.g. plot device to hype aizen

if we go by I, then monsters like Aizen can't evade distance-traveling kidos therefore ants like Zommari can't evade instantenous bakudo from Hachi

if we go by II, then Hachi removes Zommari's head kills him with some bad-ass vizard Kido while the latter is reciting his mantra (name, number, ideals, intentions, etc)

you go with II. I say: by all means :amuse



happy now?.
and by bad-ass Kidos I mean the ones that were used against Barragan. and If you can't see the difference between freaking Segunda and Septima... good luck out there :amuse


and Gran, it's very funny that out of all my arguments all you are talking about is cutting zommari's head off. Should I take it as an implecation that you don't know how to respond to others?

Gran Maestro
February 04, 2011, 05:28 AM
all right then. let it be like this:


happy now?.
and by bad-ass Kidos I mean the ones that were used against Barragan. and If you can't see the difference between freaking Segunda and Septima... good luck out there :amuse


and Gran, it's very funny that out of all my arguments all you are talking about is cutting zommari's head off. Should I take it as an implecation that you don't know how to respond to others?

Frankly, I don't understand how you take "Aizen vs Tessai" as an example and arrive at the conclusion that Hachigen can defeat Zommari. Aizen can dodge Tessai's kido, Zommari can dodge Hachigen's kido, every captain-level opponent can dodge kido attacks, this is why captains/VCs rarely use kido and they do so when there's an opening. This is manga info about kido.

Barragan didn't bother to dodge Hachigen's attacks because he was showing off his powers. If Hachigen traps Zommari, Zommari can't show off, how can Zommari show off: By trying to overwhelm Hachigen with his speed. Is he capable to do so? Totally. Hachigen, by his own admission, isn't fit for combat because Hachigen knows he can't engage in CQC. Hachigen is a good supporting actor but in this case, he is all by himself.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 05:35 AM
You're asking for the impossible there.

Funny, considering NONE of us here are ever going to admit defeat. If you do, it just means your argument wasn't very strong to begin with. I don't see how you can simplify the fight in such a way that Zommari just gets the same treatment as a fodder with ease. I have a problem dealing with the people that act like fights are 100%.

Gonna have to go with Gran on this one, you're just baiting him now.

Anyway, to keep on topic here:

Zommari's Sonido was noted as a boast, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a lie, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was true either. I understand you guys when you have doubts about it when Kubo used such wording.

However, what I see here is a lot of comparisons to Stark. Now, why should this even matter? Even if you think Stark had better Sonido than Zommari, what WOULD you rank him as? You think he would say he has the best Sonido, and it turns out he's one of the slowest? His claim was far from unfounded from what we saw. Fact is, Zommari IS fast.

We've never seen Kido connect on a Shunpo/Sonido moving opponent. In fact, even the Kido that ISN'T using an incantation is often used on very solidified opponents. If Kido WAS undodgable by people with great speed, it would be the end all, ultimate power that all the captains would use constantly, but it isn't. Then again, if you guys think Zommari isn't fast, there's no point in arguing this.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 05:55 AM
Frankly, I don't understand how you take "Aizen vs Tessai" as an example and arrive at the conclusion that Hachigen can defeat Zommari. Aizen can dodge Tessai's kido, Zommari can dodge Hachigen's kido, every captain-level opponent can dodge kido attacks, this is why captains/VCs rarely use kido and they do so when there's an opening. This is manga info about kido.

Barragan didn't bother to dodge Hachigen's attacks because he was showing off his powers. If Hachigen traps Zommari, Zommari can't show off, how can Zommari show off: By trying to overwhelm Hachigen with his speed. Is he capable to do so? Totally. Hachigen, by his own admission, isn't fit for combat because Hachigen knows he can't engage in CQC. Hachigen is a good supporting actor but in this case, he is all by himself.

and yet here you are, stubbornly going around in the circles. I said what I had to say. out of all my arguments you paid your attention only to "Hachi removes Zommari's" head. when I succesfully substituted this with another, more acceptable, scenario you, after all this:
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2276732#post2276732
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2276580#post2276580
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2276539#post2276539
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2276460#post2276460
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2275750#post2275750

suddenly remember that we can't use AIzen vs Tessai here. I repeat once and for all. you either take it or not, I don't care, honestly:

If Aizen can't avoid distance-travelling kidos, no way zommari can avoid instantenous kido.
if Aizen could avoid it, but instead Kubo made him use Danku in order for the panel to look cool and hype the char, e.g. plot device, and we are going by plot devices, then Hachi pummels Zommari while the latter is talking some BS.

whenever you see you can't argue you immediately switch to another topic and act as if I have said nothing else. know what dude? whatever :) I don't care. my arguments are valid, you failed to respond to most of them appropriately.

Gran Maestro
February 04, 2011, 06:08 AM
However, what I see here is a lot of comparisons to Stark. Now, why should this even matter? Even if you think Stark had better Sonido than Zommari, what WOULD you rank him as? You think he would say he has the best Sonido, and it turns out he's one of the slowest? His claim was far from unfounded from what we saw. Fact is, Zommari IS fast.

That's right, does it matter whether Stark or Zommari is faster? Can only Stark avoid Hachigen's kido?

AlB says Hachigen can defeat Zommari while Zommari is talking. Seriously? Zommari was on guard against Byakuya from the get-go, even when Zommari was talking (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-299/08/). Byakuya used senka to surprise Zommari (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-299/09/) but still Zommari dodged it and attacked Byakuya (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-299/10/). How on earth will Hachigen trap Zommari in a barrier, does it make any sense? What will Hachigen do after Zommari dodges his attack and attacks him with five clones? Which part of the manga suggested that kido is undodgable?
[hr]

if Aizen could avoid it, but instead Kubo made him use Danku in order for the panel to look cool and hype the char, e.g. plot device, and we are going by plot devices, then Hachi pummels Zommari while the latter is talking some BS.

You say "if we are going by plot devices, then Hachi pummels Zommari while the latter is talking some BS" and then accuse me of failing to properly address your argument. Is this even an argument? Ok, I say "if we are going by plot devices, then Omaeda can defeat Yamamoto with the power of plotkai". Do I make sense?

In the above post, I've already showed that Zommari was on guard against Byakuya even when he was talking, therefore Hachigen won't be binding Zommari, therefore Zommari will most probably defeat Hachigen.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 06:13 AM
somebody explain to Gran Maestro that the difference between Senka and Hachi's Bakudo is that Senka requires full-body movements and cover of distance, while Hachi's Bakudo requires simple clap of hands.
[hr]
and once again Gran Maestro replied only to a portion of my post. It's not even funny anymore :notrust
[hr]


You say "if we are going by plot devices, then Hachi pummels Zommari while the latter is talking some BS" and then accuse me of failing to properly address your argument. Is this even an argument? Ok, I say "if we are going by plot devices, then Omaeda can defeat Yamamoto with the power of plotkai". Do I make sense?

not in the bolded part, you do not


anyway, why I'm continuing to do this. I'm pretty bored with circling around again and again and again. several hours till discussion closes so no point anymore. nothing I say gets to you geez... at least Raizen doesn't go in circles :notrust

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 06:18 AM
your words make the scene look like a plot device. Aizen blocked and not shunpo away becasue
I. he wasn't fast enough to evade
II. the scene was meant to show Aizen's mastery of Kido e.g. plot device to hype aizen

if we go by I, then monsters like Aizen can't evade distance-traveling kidos therefore ants like Zommari can't evade instantenous bakudo from Hachi

if we go by II, then Hachi removes Zommari's head kills him with some bad-ass vizard Kido while the latter is reciting his mantra (name, number, ideals, intentions, etc)

you go with II. I say: by all means

Is this the post you were referring to?

I don't understand your point.

Number 1 means apparently no one can avoid Kido. That's ridiculous, like I said, EVERYONE would just spam the hell out of Kido if it was undodgable, it clearly is not.

Number 2 also doesn't make sense. Gran said that Aizen pulled a Danku because it was a chance to show him off. Yet you're taking that to mean that without plot devices, it means Aizen wouldn't have been able to dodge it, and therefore, no one else can?

You're effectively saying the exact same thing, and calling one scenario 1, and another 2.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but I don't see how you get "Kubo wanted to show off Aizen" to mean that he wouldn't have dodged the Kido in a no plot environment.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 06:20 AM
Is this the post you were referring to?

I don't understand your point.

Number 1 means apparently no one can avoid Kido. That's ridiculous, like I said, EVERYONE would just spam the hell out of Kido if it was undodgable, it clearly is not.

Number 2 also doesn't make sense. Gran said that Aizen pulled a Danku because it was a chance to show him off. Yet you're taking that to mean that without plot devices, it means Aizen wouldn't have been able to dodge it, and therefore, no one else can?

I mean, that avoiding Kidos from Kido Masters are near impossible. avoiding INSTANTENOUS kido that IMMEDIATELY envelops around opponent even more difficult.

and about no one else: there are several characters in manga, that are arguably on par/faster than Aizen. those being Yama, Yoruichi and Soifon. so what I'm saying is that

apart from those 4 nobody can avoid Hachi's Kido (specifically that cross-like barrier) (ww and Shun may have a chance though)




You're effectively saying the exact same thing, and calling one scenario 1, and another 2.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but I don't see how you get "Kubo wanted to show off Aizen" to mean that he wouldn't have dodged the Kido in a no plot environment.

why would Aizen waste any effort on 88 level kido if he could simply side-step out of the way?

Gran Maestro
February 04, 2011, 06:31 AM
somebody explain to Gran Maestro that the difference between Senka and Hachi's Bakudo is that Senka requires full-body movements and cover of distance, while Hachi's Bakudo requires simple clap of hands.

Senka is flash-step which is almost instantaneous, who says Hachigen's clap of hands and then the formation of light on his hands is much faster than Byakuya's senka? Gin's bankai is many times faster than clap of hands, Zommari's clones require speed much faster than clap of hands, it's as if this particular kido is undodgable even by fastest opponents. You even ignore Hachigen's own words and overrate Hachigen's kido speed to the extent that Hachigen finishes everybody in no time with his irresistible kido attacks. Hachigen isn't fast enough to bind Zommari of all people as long as Zommari is on guard, kido isn't fast enough to do that.


and once again Gran Maestro replied only to a portion of my post. It's not even funny anymore :notrust

What're you talking about? Quote the arguments which I missed in other parts of your post, it's you who keep missing my argument: "Even though captains/VCs know binding spells, they rarely use it and only when there is an opening." It's up to you to figure out what that means.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 06:38 AM
I mean, that avoiding Kidos from Kido Masters are near impossible. avoiding INSTANTENOUS kido that IMMEDIATELY envelops around opponent even more difficult.

Yet you don't agree that avoiding or blocking an attack from a near instantaneous Sonido from a Sonido master is difficult in any way?


and about no one else: there are several characters in manga, that are arguably on par/faster than Aizen. those being Yama, Yoruichi and Soifon. so what I'm saying is thatapart from those 4 nobody can avoid Hachi's Kido (specifically that cross-like barrier) (ww and Shun may have a chance though)

So despite Hachi's SEVERE disadvantage in all areas except Kido, he can catch, and one shot anyone that isn't a total of 4 ludicrously fast people?




why would Aizen waste any effort on 88 level kido if he could simply side-step out of the way?

Kubo was showing off a new Kido, and Aizen's mastery of it.
Because in the time it took him to SAY Danku, he could have flash stepped back to his house.

Gran Maestro
February 04, 2011, 06:41 AM
I mean, that avoiding Kidos from Kido Masters are near impossible. avoiding INSTANTENOUS kido that IMMEDIATELY envelops around opponent even more difficult.

Sorry, I can't agree with your argument that Aizen had no means to dodge Tessai's hado 88, you say "Aizen used danku to stop the kido, therefore Aizen had to use danku to stop the kido, there was no other option." This argument doesn't make sense, if you have any evidence that Tessai's hado 88 travels much faster than other people's hado attacks, show your evidence.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 06:46 AM
Byakurai is also of a similar nature to 88, and I seem to recall Zommari dodging it at point blank...

AlB
February 04, 2011, 07:05 AM
Senka is flash-step which is almost instantaneous, who says Hachigen's clap of hands and then the formation of light on his hands is much faster than Byakuya's senka?

than byakuya's senka? no.
than Zommari's sonido? most definitely



Gin's bankai is many times faster than clap of hands, Zommari's clones require speed much faster than clap of hands, it's as if this particular kido is undodgable even by fastest opponents.

well... that's Bankai, Gin's Bankai. not Zommari :-_-



You even ignore Hachigen's own words and overrate Hachigen's kido speed to the extent that Hachigen finishes everybody in no time with his irresistible kido attacks. Hachigen isn't fast enough to bind Zommari of all people as long as Zommari is on guard, kido isn't fast enough to do that.

what words?
I'm not saying he finishes everybody. I'm saying they can't avoid them. there are also options of rendering them useless through superior reiatsu and other kidos



What're you talking about? Quote the arguments which I missed in other parts of your post

not anymore, your post after this one I quoted covers (or tries to cover :amuse) Tessai's hado speed/Aizen dodging/Hachi's instant ko thing


it's you who keep missing my argument: "Even though captains/VCs know binding spells, they rarely use it and only when there is an opening." It's up to you to figure out what that means.

correct me if I'm wrong, but knowledge and mastery are very different things. while Captains and VC's know kido they are nowhere near Hachi's level ... and won't be for another 1000 years.
[hr]

Yet you don't agree that avoiding or blocking an attack from a near instantaneous Sonido from a Sonido master is difficult in any way?

not only it is difficult but it is nearly impossible dude. I bargain on the scenario when Hachi claps his hand the very moment the fight starts. I never said he wins 100%, I say he wins 8/10


So despite Hachi's SEVERE disadvantage in all areas except Kido, he can catch, and one shot anyone that isn't a total of 4 ludicrously fast people?

heey, you got the picture! what else you want from me?! :amuse :D




Kubo was showing off a new Kido, and Aizen's mastery of it.
Because in the time it took him to SAY Danku, he could have flash stepped back to his house.

oh man, not this again. read my previous posts and you'll see what I mean. I'm really tired. and btw, where the hell is/are Samurai Jack :D it's 2vs1 here guuuyyyss!! :D


Byakurai is also of a similar nature to 88, and I seem to recall Zommari dodging it at point blank...

it was distance traveling!!!!!!!!!!! Hachi's is instant-spawn-surround-enemy.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 07:07 AM
not anymore, your post after this covers (or tries to cover :amuse) Tessai's hado speed/Aizen dodging/Hachi's instant ko thing

You mean where it's never once been noted that being better at Kido increases the speed at which it travels? There's zero proof to say that Tessai's Hado 88 is faster than anyone else.

Aizen didn't dodge because Kubo wanted to show a new Kido, that much is obvious. To assume that Aizen of all people couldn't dodge is pretty ridiculous.

Hachi's "instant" KO has never been done on anyone of Zommari's class. Killing Menos means nothing, encasing a guy who doesn't even WANT to dodge means nothing. Hachi has zero feats of catching a Sonido/Shunpo-ing opponent. In fact, NO ONE has feats of catching a Shunpo-ing opponent with Kido.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 07:10 AM
Sorry, I can't agree with your argument that Aizen had no means to dodge Tessai's hado 88, you say "Aizen used danku to stop the kido, therefore Aizen had to use danku to stop the kido, there was no other option." This argument doesn't make sense, if you have any evidence that Tessai's hado 88 travels much faster than other people's hado attacks, show your evidence.

oh man, I'll say Aizne couldn't dodge it... you'll say kubo wanted to show off a tech... I'll go with "plot-device-realising-scenario"... and we'll go in another circle :notrust
I believe in my arguments (as you do in yours)... let's just settle at that.
[hr]

You mean where it's never once been noted that being better at Kido increases the speed at which it travels? There's zero proof to say that Tessai's Hado 88 is faster than anyone else.

Aizen didn't dodge because Kubo wanted to show a new Kido, that much is obvious. To assume that Aizen of all people couldn't dodge is pretty ridiculous.

Hachi's "instant" KO has never been done on anyone of Zommari's class. Killing Menos means nothing, encasing a guy who doesn't even WANT to dodge means nothing. Hachi has zero feats of catching a Sonido/Shunpo-ing opponent. In fact, NO ONE has feats of catching a Shunpo-ing opponent with Kido.

look man, forget Barragan. Hachi claps hands barrier appears. end of story!!! does it matter whether you want to dodge or not?! he requires less than a sec to create a high level barrier.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 07:18 AM
look man, forget Barragan. Hachi claps hands barrier appears. end of story!!! does it matter whether you want to dodge or not?! he requires less than a sec to create a high level barrier.

End of story? It also requires less than a second for Zommari to use Sonido and be right in Hachi's face.

Also, "high level barrier"? No. It's never once been noted as high level. Also, I seem to recall Hiyori telling Hachi to put a high level barrier up, and she knocks Shinji out of the building, to which he replies "you didn't give me enough time".

And off topic here, what is your avatar from? Looks Baccano-ish.

AlB
February 04, 2011, 07:22 AM
End of story? It also requires less than a second for Zommari to use Sonido and be right in Hachi's face.

Also, "high level barrier"? No. It's never once been noted as high level. Also, I seem to recall Hiyori telling Hachi to put a high level barrier up, and she knocks Shinji out of the building, to which he replies "you didn't give me enough time".

well, I certainly hope that the barriers he sets up on a daily bases around their hideouts are not equivalent of those that he uses against Arrancarized Vasto Lords/High level Adjucas.

+ it's a nature of barriers. remember his gate thing he used against Barragan? now that would definitely useless here since he had to throw some pillars and things like that, but the cross was absolutely different.

Takahashi
February 04, 2011, 07:25 AM
well, I certainly hope that the barriers he sets up on a daily bases around their hideouts are not equivalent of those that he uses against Arrancarized Vasto Lords/High level Adjucas.

+ it's a nature of barriers. remember his gate thing he used against Barragan? now that would definitely useless here since he had to throw some pillars and things like that, but the cross was absolutely different.

I'm not talking about the barrier that hides them. Hiyori asked him to put up a high level barrier, he said it takes time. YOU said Hachi's instant barrier was a high level one, it clearly can't be.

Now, you're putting so much emphasis on the barrier being fast. Would you not also agree that Zommari can ALSO be right in Hachi's face in an instant? Clearly his barriers are not opponent-seeking. If he were to begin forming a barrier at the same moment Zommari Sonido'd over to him, the barrier would form where Zommari WAS, and Hachi would be a dead man correct?

Gran Maestro
February 04, 2011, 07:38 AM
oh man, I'll say Aizne couldn't dodge it... you'll say kubo wanted to show off a tech... I'll go with "plot-device-realising-scenario"... and we'll go in another circle :notrust
I believe in my arguments (as you do in yours)... let's just settle at that.


Well, if you genuinely believe that Tessai's and Hachigen's kido are so fast that only a few people can dodge, then I don't know what else to say. But keep in mind that it has never been stated that Tessai's kido travels much faster than other captains' kido attacks, it's your opinion which has no manga support.

And no, I don't agree with your argument that Hachigen's barrier kido (which is activated by clap of hands and formation of light) can't be dodged. Even Gin's bankai which was many times faster could be dodged.

Lunatic Scream
February 04, 2011, 05:16 PM
If Byakuya's kido can block Zommari's ressureccion, then there's no doubt Hachi's can. However, Zommari's "fastest sonido" might end Hachi before the fight even gets that far.

Of course, Soifon is considered one of the fastest in Soul Society, and Barragan's respira could catch her... and Hachi was throwing up defensive kido in the travel time of Respira, and I think it's safe to say that you need a stronger defensive Kido for Respira than for Zommari's attacks. Hachi seems to be lightning fast with Kido so... gotta give it to H-man.

Raizen
February 04, 2011, 07:24 PM
Why did aizen block tessai's kido with no effort? Because if he had let it explode, there might be some damage, if not to him then to his allies. He didn't use danku because he couldn't dodge. that's completely preposterous. Kido is great, but being a master in it does not allow u to beat opponents easily
[hr]

If Byakuya's kido can block Zommari's ressureccion, then there's no doubt Hachi's can. However, Zommari's "fastest sonido" might end Hachi before the fight even gets that far.

Of course, Soifon is considered one of the fastest in Soul Society, and Barragan's respira could catch her... and Hachi was throwing up defensive kido in the travel time of Respira, and I think it's safe to say that you need a stronger defensive Kido for Respira than for Zommari's attacks. Hachi seems to be lightning fast with Kido so... gotta give it to H-man.
Byakuya had to witness amor MANY times before he realized what its weakness is. by the time hacchi witness it even once, it would most likely be the end for him. I personally believe that zomari could control hacchi's head if he wanted to. But let's say he doesn't aim for the head. What if he takes control of hacchi's hands. That means NO KIDO.

soifon was not using shuunpo to dodge respira... why? ... for plot reasons.
Furthermore, the comparison between respira and hacchi's barrier is a failed one. Hacchi knew what respira could do because he saw it before he entered the battle. So he knew he NEEDs to create defensive barriers otherwise he is screwed. In this fight he has no idea what zomari can do. With zomari's speed, hacchi would die

Lunatic Scream
February 05, 2011, 05:20 PM
Why did aizen block tessai's kido with no effort? Because if he had let it explode, there might be some damage, if not to him then to his allies. He didn't use danku because he couldn't dodge. that's completely preposterous. Kido is great, but being a master in it does not allow u to beat opponents easily
<hr noshade size="1">

Byakuya had to witness amor MANY times before he realized what its weakness is. by the time hacchi witness it even once, it would most likely be the end for him. I personally believe that zomari could control hacchi's head if he wanted to. But let's say he doesn't aim for the head. What if he takes control of hacchi's hands. That means NO KIDO.

soifon was not using shuunpo to dodge respira... why? ... for plot reasons.
Furthermore, the comparison between respira and hacchi's barrier is a failed one. Hacchi knew what respira could do because he saw it before he entered the battle. So he knew he NEEDs to create defensive barriers otherwise he is screwed. In this fight he has no idea what zomari can do. With zomari's speed, hacchi would die

I understand all that, but Byakuya and Hachi also have different arsenals. Byakuya is a VERY well rounded shinigami. Hachi... is pretty much Kido only, from what we've seen.

From what we know of Zommari, he's pretty arrogant. He took his time "conquering" all of Byakuya's body parts, and then didn't even go for his head. He's not going to go for the head of Hachi straight away. We also know that Hachi can do one-handed kido, if Zom happens to take one of his arms. Even if Hachi DOESN'T figure out how Amor works from the first move...he's not going to resort to anything OTHER than Kido to defend himself. He has nothing else.

You could argue that Zommari could beat every character in this story if he just "went for the head" first. But... be realistic, it's not in his personality. If it were, Byakuya would be dead.

Raizen
February 05, 2011, 05:41 PM
I understand all that, but Byakuya and Hachi also have different arsenals. Byakuya is a VERY well rounded shinigami. Hachi... is pretty much Kido only, from what we've seen.

From what we know of Zommari, he's pretty arrogant. He took his time "conquering" all of Byakuya's body parts, and then didn't even go for his head. He's not going to go for the head of Hachi straight away. We also know that Hachi can do one-handed kido, if Zom happens to take one of his arms. Even if Hachi DOESN'T figure out how Amor works from the first move...he's not going to resort to anything OTHER than Kido to defend himself. He has nothing else.

You could argue that Zommari could beat every character in this story if he just "went for the head" first. But... be realistic, it's not in his personality. If it were, Byakuya would be dead.
And the story has shown that kido is not the end all win all. That is why captains focus on ALL areas of shinigami combats rather then just focus on kido.

I don't see zomarri as arrogant. He didn't go for byakuya's head because he couldn't. As that fight showed, byakuya is superior to zomari. Also, we know that in a battle it is a battle of reiatsu. So it is inferred that zomari could not just simply take control of someone's head if they are as strong or stronger than him in terms of SP. Otherwise, he would be the #1 espada no?

In this fight, hacchi is screwed either way. In his unreleased state, zomari could end the match once the battle starts. Hacchi's kido may not protect him for long or even at all against that speed.
If he releases, hacchi has no idea what to expect. Once zomari gets in even one amor on hacci, hacchi will be fighting handicapped. Not to mention, zomari can very well take control of his head

tousendrinksbleach
February 05, 2011, 06:04 PM
My,my... people take zommari's talk as a valid argument
fights in the espada arc all matched shinigamis vs hollows that had similarities , do you know what byakuya and zommari both had? a big mouth
if we were to take what characters say about themeselves as a fact , then byakuya who said that ichigo wont beat him even if he trained 1000 years wouldnt lose to him after he trained 3 days ...
on the outcomer of the battler : i hardly see hacchi losing , zommari has shown everything he had but how many binding spells do we know? and if i'm not wrong , fights dont start with one standing fighter and one shunpoing/sonidoing : zommari will start the fight standing still

Tsukisama
February 05, 2011, 11:34 PM
With almost three-fourths of the votes, Hachigen wins! He shall advance on into Round 2. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny