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Joe7133
January 19, 2011, 09:46 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29335-3/claymore/chapter-24.html

Chapter 24: Mark for Death 7 on page 3.

This page spark a interesting note. Noel and Sophia never ever fought AB before because they don't even know what Priscilla was called. I guess the only one that knew was Irene since she called it an Awakened one. Teresa probably knew because she killed Rosemary.

I'm just wondering how strong is Sophia and Noel are compare to Clare's generation. I mean even Rank 6 Miria fought AB several time.

I'm wondering if they were just puppets for filler for stronger Claymore to rise in rank like Teresa did to Rosemary.

HegemonKhan
January 19, 2011, 10:05 PM
Noel managed to slice off Awakened Priscilla's arm, she's certainly is NOT weak!

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It seems that Claymores from Teresa's Era and earlier, rarely fought Awakeneds. This doesn't mean though that they (Sophia and Noel) are weak.

don't forget how rank 2 Irene had so utterly pwned rank 4 Ophelia. Irene was on a completely different level then Ophelia, who was incredibly powerful herself (very possibly even more so than rank 3 Galatea)

And then if we go back even further, we have Rafaela, who is certainly not weak either, in fact she was the most powerful Claymore in Clare's Era (excluding Soul Link Awakening Alicia), hehe. so older Era Claymores are NOT weaker. Audrey and Rachel leanred this the hard way against Abyssal One Riful.

Also, it's my opinion that we really can't affirmly say that newer/younger Eras' Claymores are weaker than the older Eras' Claymores, just as well.

Also, many people argue that Irene (and Sophia and Noel) were just freaking out because it was rank S Priscilla who had become an Awakened, not that they were merely seeing an Awakening.

Though it does seem that Sophia and Noel had never encountered an Awakened, unless Irene was truly merely speaking to us the readers, telling us what an Awakened is, lol.

However, even if this was their first time against an Awakened, and the ultimate Awakened Priscilla no less, Sophia and especially Noel showed no fear (once they engaged Awakened Priscilla), and Noel, even managed to briefly slice off Awakened Priscilla's arm. Irene and Sophia got pwned by Awakened Priscilla, but as I just mentioned, Noel performed the best, hehe. Which little human child Clare recognized too... :D

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P.S.

I just recently looked back over Teresa's chapters as well, and noticed this:

Orsay talking about Teresa: ~"No, not the most powerful woman. Teresa is the most powerful CREATURE/MONSTER!"

Creature/Monster is not saying that Teresa is merely the rank 1 Claymore of her Era, but the most powerful out of even the Awakeneds of her Era and possibly all Eras as well. Orsay is saying that Teresa is the most powerful, even more powerful than the "creatures/monsters" Isley, Riful, Luciela, and etc...

wickedsmile
January 20, 2011, 12:45 AM
@ HK: Hmm.. That's an interesting interpretation of Orsay's statement. I took it to mean that as a half yoma/human, he did not consider Teresa to be human anymore. Of course, her strength and cold demeanor certainly influenced his thoughts in this regard.

@Joe7133: That does seem like an oversight on Yagi's part. It would be difficult to imagine that a high ranking warrior would be ignorant of the existence of Awakened Beings. In Clare's time, even Deneve (rank 15) and Helen (rank 22) knew of them.

I have another observation on Chapter 92, page 21. Clare reveals the Quicksword and from whom she learned the technique. Rafaela has a "faint smile" and says "....I see." I wonder if she realizes the irony in the matter. The person she executed managed to avenge her death, even from the after life.

Then again, perhaps I'm reading too much into this and interjecting too much of my feelings on the matter.

HegemonKhan
January 20, 2011, 03:09 AM
a BC, especially Orsay, wouldn't care if Teresa was cruel and "inhuman". I feel he's clearly talking about Teresa's Power Level, as he is already doing so, talking about her title of "Faint Smile", which is all about her Power Level. And thus, saying CREATURE/MONSTER would obviously include being the most powerful out of the "creatures/monsters", or in other words, the Awakeneds. Teresa is the most powerful of all Claymores and Awakeneds alike.

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I don't find it surprising really. The Org would definately want to keep Awakeneds secret from their Claymores, and these older Claymores had much higher standards. Irene was shocked at Ophelia attacking what she thought was a "civilian/human", though it was Irene, lol.

If the high standard Claymores of Teresa's Era and earlier found out about the Awakeneds, they'd really be upset at the Org, and that's the last thing the Org would want, lol.

So, with the "lower standard" Claymores of Clare's Era, the Org didn't have to keep the existence of Awakeneds hidden, and also I'm sure the Claymores gradually found out about the Awakeneds and in a controlled way.

It's also possible that the Awakeneds were more "tactful" in their "meals", to avoid causing the town to ask for a request to kill the Awakened feasting on their townsfolk, during Teresa's Era and earlier Eras. These Awakeneds probably went after humans traveling outside in the "country/forest-side".

but this is indeed just my speculation. so, who knows why, and it is a bit mysterious, if it is true that only Teresa and Irene knew of Awakeneds' existence.

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yes, about the illusion of "Rafaela" too, it is a bit mysterious...

the problem is, who's/what's the illusion of "Rafaela" ? :

1. Rafaela's consciousness
2. Teresa's consciousness
3. Clare's own consciousness
4. Destroyer's consciousness
5. It alternatives between who/what ever (#'s 1-4), as they fight over control of the illusion of "Rafaela".

Also... the illusion of "Rafaela" said that if the mind is destroyed in this mind-dream world by destroying their imaginary body in this mind-dream world, then their real body in the real physical world dies...

well.... then we see the illusion of "Rafaela", who/what ever she is really, decapitate Clare! So, shouldn't Clare be dead... I'm baffled... The only way I can explain it, is that it was Clare's own mind producing a panicky "hypothetic vision" of herself dying, and not actually getting decapitated in that mind-dream world by that "real" illusion of "Rafaela".

Freeloadersan
January 21, 2011, 02:43 AM
yes, about the illusion of "Rafaela" too, it is a bit mysterious...

the problem is, who's/what's the illusion of "Rafaela" ? :

1. Rafaela's consciousness
2. Teresa's consciousness
3. Clare's own consciousness
4. Destroyer's consciousness
5. It alternatives between who/what ever (#'s 1-4), as they fight over control of the illusion of "Rafaela".

Also... the illusion of "Rafaela" said that if the mind is destroyed in this mind-dream world by destroying their imaginary body in this mind-dream world, then their real body in the real physical world dies...

well.... then we see the illusion of "Rafaela", who/what ever she is really, decapitate Clare! So, shouldn't Clare be dead... I'm baffled... The only way I can explain it, is that it was Clare's own mind producing a panicky "hypothetic vision" of herself dying, and not actually getting decapitated in that mind-dream world by that "real" illusion of "Rafaela".

Didn't Renee/Rune get her consciousness torn apart by the Destroyer (in Ch.83/84) as well, yet there didn't seem to be much adverse effect from that either. The part with Clare getting decapitated confused me as well. I just read it again and I still don't get how she can be killed once, in mental combat, and then come back again. I guess she must of got a 1-up before the fight started.

As for what Orsay said, I agree with wickedsmile. I think that he was just correcting his misstatement that she was still a human/woman. Although, I do believe that Teresa was the most powerful being at the time and most probably currently as well. I think Orsay just wasn't privy to that knowledge. It would mean that they had full knowledge of how strong each AO, plus an accurate reading of Teresa's power (even though she rarely released even 10%). Further, If he really thought she was all-powerful I doubt the Org would have thought that 2-5 would be enough when they go for Teresa's head. Hell they probably would have just left her alone and treated her like an AO. Also, in the special, Teresa uses the argument that Rosemary couldn't have awakened or else she wouldn't be alive. Orsay seems to believe her lie. Lastly, in Chapter 62 p 19 Rubel says that Alicia is the strongest number 1 in the annals. While he was wrong about this I think that the Org probably actually believes that to be true.

Joe7133
January 21, 2011, 09:04 AM
I don't think the Organization knew how powerful Teresa is. Even Irene who fought side by side with Teresa in the past, didn't know until the Priscilla fight. Teresa was a monster of the making, but Clare woke up the humanity in her and she got beheaded for it.

Maybe Priscilla might be stronger or just as strong as Teresa if given time. You can see that with Clare and Miria. They grew pretty powerful over the 7year in hiding. At least a rank 1 or 2, just because Miria made short work of the current rank 3/5 and the rest of the claymore protecting the Organization.

Alicia/Beth are quite strong but I doubt they are stronger then Teresa/Priscilla. If I was to give a number from 1-10, I'll give Alicia/Beth an 7 compare to 10 for Teresa/Priscilla. I would place the other 3 AO's around 5-6. (Note: I'm stating this when they were Claymore, not as an Awakened Being.)

wickedsmile
January 22, 2011, 01:26 AM
I believe that the Organization thought Priscilla would act as the "trump card" as Rubel probably would have said. If I recall from the text, she fights without releasing Youki, similar to what Teresa does, although the latter can actually sense its flows. I don't know if Priscilla had that ability as well. Her lack of Youki release would make her the perfect warrior against Teresa who "reads" Youki to anticipate her opponent's moves.

It's amazing that Teresa actually kept up with Priscilla, since she admitted at their first encounter that she could not feel Priscilla's presence. There's probably a host of other abilities that Teresa kept from her fellow warriors and from the Organization. The Special edition on Teresa and some of the events during "Marked for Death" most likely indicate that she did hide quite a bit from the Organization. Irene did mention to Clare that Teresa was a private individual that kept to herself, although that could be said of the other warriors as well.

I went through the chapters so fast to find out what happened next, after watching the anime. It seems that I've missed quite a few good tid bits that really enriches the storyline, not only in the graphics but also in the text as well. It's got to be good stuff when you could read something over again and never find it tiresome, and to the contrary, quite refreshing. Thanks to all for pointing out the finer details in Claymore.

FrostyMouse
April 17, 2011, 10:23 AM
Here's the thing.

Rubel says that Alicia can beat Priscilla (http://www.mangareader.net/485-29336-15/claymore/chapter-25.html) near the beginning of the manga.

However, we learn later on that it takes ages for Alicia just to make it to Riful's level. Does that count as a retcon?

This page (http://www.mangareader.net/485-29373-19/claymore/chapter-62.html) is a complete lie as Alicia is not even close to being the strongest #1 ever.

HegemonKhan
April 17, 2011, 01:25 PM
I always felt that Rubel was being sarcastic/scoffing towards Alicia+Beth 's supposedly top/greatest power on the island when he talked about them (and Priscilla) to Clare way back in the early manga.

my theory is that Alicia+Beth were the Organization's "best creations" (creations using the Soul Link to Awaken), and that Rubel was laughing and mocking this belief of the Organization, laughing at how inferior were the Organization's Alicia+Beth, saying "why my Priscilla all by herself, easily out powers them".... "Heroes, bah, but will you my Clare-pet-experiment, rise to merely the weak level of Alicia+Beth, let alone to rivalling my Priscilla, oh I hope you will, I hope you'll become even more powerful than Priscilla, yes, my Clare, push yourself and show me what you can do, become an even more powerful weapon of mine than Priscilla is!"

also that link you gave with Galatea... I think this has a lot of implications...

1. Rubel was allowing Galatea to see the weakness-flaw-vulnerability of Alicia+Beth+Soul Link, should he need her or the Ghosts to kill Alicia+Beth (though later on Priscilla did that already "accidentally for Rubel", lol), and/or the later TATs... Galatea might have briefed Miria about Alicia+Beth, which helped prepare her for when she battled the TATs... or maybe not.. lol

-Is Galatea the "Traitor" secretly working for Rubel, pretending to be the Ghosts' ally... but secretly she's going to do what Rubel wanted... and help complete the "Blob of 3" into the ultimate weapon that Rafaela had failed to complete, only half-merging only creating the Destroyer, instead of the ultimate being/weapon that Rubel was trying to have to create with fusing with Luciela... but now this ultimate being/weapon will incorporate CLare+TEresa+Priscilla as well as Rafaela+Luciela (the Destroyer). hehe :D

-why did Galatea go to Rabona... why does she "love" Rabona and not some other town... maybe Galatea doesn't "love" Rabona at all, maybe she was infiltrating Rabona for Rubel and/or using it as a front to hide her "traitorous intent" towards the Ghosts, as she's possibly secretly working for Rubel... Rabona is a good place to protect her from both the Organization and the Ghosts... so that she can carry out Rubel's wishes...

-Actually... now that I'm thinking about it... the stuff that surrounds Galatea... is indeed very suspicious... all of her interaction with the Ghosts and stuff... *possibly*...

2. Rubel was allowing Galatea to see how the Soul Link works, so that maybe she could later use the Soul Link... for whatever purpose...

3. obviously Rubel knew it would traumatize Galatea, with seeing how cruelly/inhumanly they had conditioned Alicia+Beth, knowing that it would cause her to dissert on her own, so she's not executed by the Org, and it keeps Rubel safe from suspicion in being involved in Galatea's flight... "I saved Galatea, without putting my own neck on the line, hehe"

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also, that link you gave, is one of the sources that supports Rubel being the leader of the Organization... Rubel ofen talks about how or what the Organization will do, as if he's the leader of it, though he does so in a third person way to hide that he's the leader who makes the decisions of what the Org does...

as we now learn that possibly (if you favor this interpretation of ch 113) indeed Rubel is the only one to know about Priscilla and Priscilla's power level, so Rubel is basically saying...

"Should my Priscilla pet-experiment-weapon become a threat to the Organization/Me-Rubel, than I'll use the full power at my disposal of the Org or beyond (the Ghosts, and/or specifically Clare+Teresa my trump card who hates Priscilla and who has the only greater source of power than Priscilla inside of her, Teresa) to eliminate Priscilla"

FrostyMouse
April 17, 2011, 03:34 PM
The whole situation with Rubel and Galatea has always been suspicious. Especially how Rubel can find a claymore (Rafaela) that supposedly can't be found without the help of an Eye.

Taking chapter 113 into account, Rubel needs to have had an accomplice to help him make Priscilla. Dae doesn't seem to show that much surprise at seeing Rubel in his lab, so it could very well be that Dae is Rubel's co-conspirator.

Rubel has shielded Galatea from the Organization's wrath several times, so who knows.

Rubel's goal could very well be to create a creature that isn't a crazed AB, which retains its human form. At some point, Clare will regain a body and Priscilla will be released, and seeing as Yagi didn't have Clare awaken when first fighting Priscilla, I find it unlikely that Clare will ever awaken again. Clare might just become Priscilla.

I thin that Rubel was happy with Teresa, but wanted to see if he could create something better than Teresa or if he could push Teresa to new heights by creating Priscilla. I've always very much doubted that the bandits that Teresa encountered were just "random bandits." There's never another instance where bandits are seen. Supposedly, slavers captured Raki and conveniently brought him to the North where the battle was taking place, but the slavers are never seen, and it's never clear whether the people who did bring him to the North weren't paid to do that. Rubel could easily have paid those bandits to kill the villagers, knowing that Teresa would snap and kill them, providing him with a chance to test her with Priscilla.

HegemonKhan
April 17, 2011, 08:40 PM
What is interesting...

How DID Rubel KNOW that Raki was capatured by the Slave Traders and taken to Alphonse ?

(and than it just happens that Raki and Priscilla meet... yes, I think Rubel orchestrated all of this, ah yes the madness, the extremeness of it... maybe it just might turn out to be true... muhahaha!)

personally, I think Rubel captured Raki himself, using Raki as "leverage" to get Clare to go to Alphonse (not knowing.. for once, lol... that Clare was already planning to go to Alphonse to kill Priscilla which she had "just" got this info from Riful), and that the "Slave Traders" may very well be a public euphenism/code word for the BC Retrieval Unit members, just as "Voracious Eater" is used as the public euphenism/code word for Awakeneds.

----------------------------------------------------

you might be interested in this:

I had entertained that Rig (the bandit who harrasses Teresa+Human Clare) was actually a NY, ordered by the Org (or Rubel) to infiltrate the human bandits, to get Teresa to kill humans, to give the BCs (or Rubel) a justification for seeking Teresa's death (as Teresa was jsut too dangerous for the BCs... or Rubel didn't have her cooperation alive... so he'd get her cooperation dead... and maybe make an even more powerful weapon in implanting her flesh into Human Clare... hehe).

if you're interested, go back and look at the chapters+pages with Rig, and look at one of the pics of his face... it looks almost like a NY's !!!
(I forgot where exactly, maybe it's when Teresa gives her "freedom speech", hehe)

Also, WHY was Rig sooo interested in Human Clare and Teresa anyways... ???
(Remember that Human Clare was "desired/targeted... or ordered to target" already by two NYs. And if Rig is a NY, that'd be the 3rd NY to target/desire/be interested in Human Clare...

Also, is Rig's interesting comment about why he hates Teresa/Claymores:

~"I hate that superior look you give me!!!"

this could be simply a comment by him as a human...

or... he could very well be a NY, and thus as a NY, he HATES how Claymores think they are "better, superior, and good" compared to the "worse, inferior, and evil" Yomas...

Joe7133
April 18, 2011, 03:59 AM
Would be very exciting to see Rubel transform into something never seen before with crazy power. :) He'd be like, "You think Priscilla is powerful, I'm a GOD!!!" :) You just never know.

FrostyMouse
April 18, 2011, 08:08 AM
HK, I'm pretty sure that Teresa would be able to detect if Rig were a NY.

I'd find it more likely that Rubel just paid Rig to attack the village.

HegemonKhan
April 18, 2011, 11:15 AM
that's true, Teresa would probably be able to sense him, unless he's on the pills, and than only if Teresa can't sense someone on the pills...

rcfalcon
April 18, 2011, 12:40 PM
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yes, about the illusion of "Rafaela" too, it is a bit mysterious...

the problem is, who's/what's the illusion of "Rafaela" ? :

1. Rafaela's consciousness
2. Teresa's consciousness
3. Clare's own consciousness
4. Destroyer's consciousness
5. It alternatives between who/what ever (#'s 1-4), as they fight over control of the illusion of "Rafaela".

Also... the illusion of "Rafaela" said that if the mind is destroyed in this mind-dream world by destroying their imaginary body in this mind-dream world, then their real body in the real physical world dies...

well.... then we see the illusion of "Rafaela", who/what ever she is really, decapitate Clare! So, shouldn't Clare be dead... I'm baffled... The only way I can explain it, is that it was Clare's own mind producing a panicky "hypothetic vision" of herself dying, and not actually getting decapitated in that mind-dream world by that "real" illusion of "Rafaela".

I sort of hate to bring this up, but, couldn't the inspiriation from this come from "The Empire Striked Back" where Luke fights Darth Vader in the cave and gets decapitated symbolically? Luke didn't actually die and neither apparently did Clare in her encounter with Rafaela. Maybe that was to teach Clare something? The parallels is there but I may be stretching it a bit.

Khorr
April 18, 2011, 06:48 PM
I sort of hate to bring this up, but, couldn't the inspiriation from this come from "The Empire Striked Back" where Luke fights Darth Vader in the cave and gets decapitated symbolically? Luke didn't actually die and neither apparently did Clare in her encounter with Rafaela. Maybe that was to teach Clare something? The parallels is there but I may be stretching it a bit.

You know.. That was a very good analogy.

I think we are also overlooking the possibility of two mind inside the "Statue" when it was first found instead of just Rafaela's. My understanding is that both Rafaela and Luciela's consciousness could be found mixed togather, depending if Luciela really did died or not.

rcfalcon
April 18, 2011, 11:34 PM
I think it's been pretty well established that Luciella died and then Rafaela poured her life essence into Luciela's corpse resulting in the merged bodies. Rafaela even remarked to Clare that the whole thing would have faded away had not Riful forced Renee to probe it with her yoki sensing abitily.
Maybe the third entity is the mixture of Rafaela and Luciela but I still think it's the part of Teresa from Clare. We'll find out soon enough I hope.

wickedsmile
April 19, 2011, 08:26 PM
It's difficult to tell with Clare. She has the flesh of two past warriors. Although the Organization used Teresa's flesh to create her, she also wields Irene's arm. I don't think the spirit of either individual will manifest themselves in the youki blob. However, traces of their individual youki may surface for others to recognize.

ws

HegemonKhan
April 19, 2011, 09:22 PM
what is interesting, Irene has manifested herself physically in Clare:

we see that Clare's "Irene's" right side, is very different from Clare's own left side in her Partial Awakening.

now, this is a physical manifestation (like Luciela's Awakened body manifesting itself in the Hellcats and Infected Hosts), so it doesn't say anything towards a mind/mental/conscious/sub-conscious/psychological/soul/spirit manifestation however, though it does make it seem more possible, along with the mental stuff we've seen with Rafaela+Clare+Destroyer and with Raftela's Yoki Manipulation of the mind and whatever is going on with Clare's "wedge" as well.

Joe7133
April 20, 2011, 02:31 AM
I'm sure the battle between Clare (Blob) vs Priscilla (Inside Blob) is going to be mental instead of physical. If i'm guessing right, Priscilla will lose and Clare will be reborn with new power from the blob to face new and more powerful danger ahead.

rcfalcon
April 21, 2011, 12:25 AM
I'm sure the battle between Clare (Blob) vs Priscilla (Inside Blob) is going to be mental instead of physical. If i'm guessing right, Priscilla will lose and Clare will be reborn with new power from the blob to face new and more powerful danger ahead.

In a way, I hope you're right because I love Clare's character. On the other hand, if this turns out to be true, it will fall into the realm of stories like DBZ and Bleach where the protagonist just keeps leveling up to fight stronger bosses in a never ending soap opera. I gave up on both of those since the story line just repeated and repeated with different threats.
I'd hate to see Claymore descend into that mundane abyss. I'd loose interest really fast unless the plot device was very clever.

lawlett-kun
April 21, 2011, 10:21 PM
In a way, I hope you're right because I love Clare's character. On the other hand, if this turns out to be true, it will fall into the realm of stories like DBZ and Bleach where the protagonist just keeps leveling up to fight stronger bosses in a never ending soap opera. I gave up on both of those since the story line just repeated and repeated with different threats.
I'd hate to see Claymore descend into that mundane abyss. I'd loose interest really fast unless the plot device was very clever.

Yeah I hope it wont be something like in bleach...*omg* Yeah I dont mind Priscilla and Clare getting out of that thing and just starting fighting normally... Btw I was wondering for a while why wouldnt Priscilla bcome like a dweller of deep shes powerful enough right?

HegemonKhan
April 21, 2011, 11:24 PM
Priscilla is more powerful than a "Dweller of the Deep" (Abyssal One).

Rank S (S for Super) Claymore (Priscilla) -> Awakens -> Super Abyssal One (SAO)
rank 1 Claymore -> Awakens -> Dweller of the Deep = Abyssal One (AO)
rank 2-47 Claymore -> Awakens -> Awakened Being (AB)

Joe7133
April 24, 2011, 07:47 PM
In a way, I hope you're right because I love Clare's character. On the other hand, if this turns out to be true, it will fall into the realm of stories like DBZ and Bleach where the protagonist just keeps leveling up to fight stronger bosses in a never ending soap opera. I gave up on both of those since the story line just repeated and repeated with different threats.
I'd hate to see Claymore descend into that mundane abyss. I'd loose interest really fast unless the plot device was very clever.

I think it's kind of hard to have a physical fight between Priscilla and Clare since we already know who is stronger in physical. There is no way Clare can win just by seeing Priscilla regeneration and Power to blow up AO's with one hand. Just look at Esley, half of his body was destroy with a one hand blast from Priscilla.

I'm sure this why Yagi decided to cocoon both of them in the blob so it will be a mental battle instead of a physical.

wickedsmile
April 24, 2011, 10:19 PM
good_boy:

In essence, Clare has already "powered up." She not only wields Irene's Quicksword but has also mastered Flora's Windcutter. Since her introduction, we clearly see the evolution of the frail individual into the formidable warrior.

I think what made Claymore unique (I may error in this assumption since I have not ready any other mangas) is its dramatization and its compelling emotional effect. Yagi will bring you up to the height of happiness (Raki saving Clare in the Rabona cathedral) and then will plunge you into the depth of despair (Teresa's death / Jean's death).

Even in the later chapters as the AF/AE defeat Isley, Yagi gives us that wonderful narration Isley short time in Raki's presence. In my opinion, Raki did exactly what Clare did for Theresa. He gave Isley a sense of humanity and belonging that he had not experienced for a very long time.

Sure, Claymore is a physically engaging story and dying is part of the story. However, death isn't meaningless in Claymore. It emphasizes the importance of human companionship and affection. Also, if you examine the main characters, I will wager that all of us can relate to the emotions/desires/troubles that they express.

I'm probably on Mars on this one, but its themes mirror those expressed in Neil Gaiman's Death series (High Cost of Living & The Time of Your Life). HCoL was the last graphic medium that I read (when it was originally released) before getting hooked onto Claymore.

ws

lawlett-kun
April 24, 2011, 10:25 PM
good_boy:

In essence, Clare has already "powered up." She not only wields Irene's Quicksword but has also mastered Flora's Windcutter. Since her introduction, we clearly see the evolution of the frail individual into the formidable warrior.

I think what made Claymore unique (I may error in this assumption since I have not ready any other mangas) is its dramatization and its compelling emotional effect. Yagi will bring you up to the height of happiness (Raki saving Clare in the Rabona cathedral) and then will plunge you into the depth of despair (Teresa's death / Jean's death).

Even in the later chapters as the AF/AE defeat Isley, Yagi gives us that wonderful narration Isley short time in Raki's presence. In my opinion, Raki did exactly what Clare did for Theresa. He gave Isley a sense of humanity and belonging that he had not experienced for a very long time.

Sure, Claymore is a physically engaging story and dying is part of the story. However, death isn't meaningless in Claymore. It emphasizes the importance of human companionship and affection. Also, if you examine the main characters, I will wager that all of us can relate to the emotions/desires/troubles that they express.

I'm probably on Mars on this one, but its themes mirror those expressed in Neil Gaiman's Death series (High Cost of Living & The Time of Your Life). HCoL was the last graphic medium that I read (when it was originally released) before getting hooked onto Claymore.

ws

I do realize completely what you are saying, I completely agree that Clare had already enough of power ups with Irene's quicksword and Flora's windcutter however Clare still seems sooo far away from Priscilla and defeating priscilla is like her ultimate goal i suppose isnt it.I doubt Clare can defeat her with what she has now anyway

Joe7133
April 25, 2011, 01:40 AM
I do realize completely what you are saying, I completely agree that Clare had already enough of power ups with Irene's quicksword and Flora's windcutter however Clare still seems sooo far away from Priscilla and defeating priscilla is like her ultimate goal i suppose isnt it.I doubt Clare can defeat her with what she has now anyway

I'm sure that after defeating "Only my guess" Priscilla mentally, Clare will have a new goal and that is to revenge Priscilla and Every Claymore just like Miria. A common goal to destroy the Organization.

HegemonKhan
April 25, 2011, 12:04 PM
Clare already knows about what the Org is doing, she was there when Miria+the 5 other Ghosts vowed to destroy the Org, EXCEPT Clare doesn't really seem to care about the Organization... she just wants to DESTROY PRISCILLA :D and let's not forget, Clare was the first, only, and last to have gone to the Org herself, Clare chose the Org, chose to become a Claymore, chose to seek this "tainted power and group" to acquire the means to get her revenge on Priscilla.

rcfalcon
April 27, 2011, 10:43 PM
But she also gave her allegiance to Miria and Co after Pieta so in this case, she's conflicted. Priscilla is indeed her first objective, after that, the plot becomes very murky between defeating the Org, finding Raki, and then what ever else comes along.
Volunteering to be a Claymore was only to facilitate her revenge on Priscilla. I don't believe she holds any loyalty to the Org outside of that goal so her teaming with Miria makes sense.

HegemonKhan
April 28, 2011, 01:24 AM
I just don't know if Clare really cares about what the Org is doing or in what thus happens to the humans.

Yes, Clare did stop her sword from taking off Raki's head (DAMMNIT! Clare you idiot, why'd you not decapitate him in ch 1 ??? !!!!! ARGH!!! J/K, hehe :D), and she would probably protect humans and not kill them, but that's merely more simply because that's her role/duty as a Claymore, than really personally wanting to help/save/protect humans herself.

The manga/Galatea did say how Clare was bothered when Miria told her that all this nightmare and problems, could be the Org's doing... and that the Claymores->Awakeneds were just a "bio-weapons research and development" project.

I just personally see Clare caring more about the Claymores than humans, as she really has no allegience or bonds left to the humans and the human world:

Teresa to Clare: ~"Live as a human, live with humans, and die a human. That must be the greatest happiness"... (my own -Teresa's- understanding and yearning of/for happiness)

Clare stripping off her clothes in front of the Rokut townsfolk to Teresa, crying/screaming: NO!!!.. ~"I don't want nice shoes! I don't want nice clothes! [I don't want to be a human!] I just want to be with TERESA FOREVER!"

rcfalcon
April 29, 2011, 12:22 PM
I agree with you partly. However, once again, her actions speak louder than her words. The first time in Rabona she specifically warned Cid and Gaul to leave her and the yoma so they wouldn't get killed and ended up severely wounded on account of it.

When she met Ophelia she was shocked at Opehlia's attitude that it was OK to kill humans as long as there were no witnesses.

Raki is human and she took him in after he was "booted" out of his village even though she really didn't have to.

She again came to Rabona's aid with the Ghosts and again tried to get Cid and Co to back off so they wouldn't get killed.

She may come across like a gruff, uncaring person towards humans, but her actions betray her. Even her excuse for finding Raki to "say goodbye" is lame because there is no way in hades that Raki would just let her go away, especially after growing "huge" and more capable. She had to have know this so this goodbye thing really doesn't hold water.

113
May 12, 2012, 09:06 AM
I just don't know if Clare really cares about what the Org is doing or in what thus happens to the humans.

Yes, Clare did stop her sword from taking off Raki's head (DAMMNIT! Clare you idiot, why'd you not decapitate him in ch 1 ??? !!!!! ARGH!!! J/K, hehe :D), and she would probably protect humans and not kill them, but that's merely more simply because that's her role/duty as a Claymore, than really personally wanting to help/save/protect humans herself.

The manga/Galatea did say how Clare was bothered when Miria told her that all this nightmare and problems, could be the Org's doing... and that the Claymores->Awakeneds were just a "bio-weapons research and development" project.

I just personally see Clare caring more about the Claymores than humans, as she really has no allegience or bonds left to the humans and the human world:

Teresa to Clare: ~"Live as a human, live with humans, and die a human. That must be the greatest happiness"... (my own -Teresa's- understanding and yearning of/for happiness)

Clare stripping off her clothes in front of the Rokut townsfolk to Teresa, crying/screaming: NO!!!.. ~"I don't want nice shoes! I don't want nice clothes! [I don't want to be a human!] I just want to be with TERESA FOREVER!"

I realise that this is an old thread but I had a few thoughts about the clare/detroyer blob etc...

Firstly though; I think I have to agree that Clare does care about humans, especially their relationships with claymores etc and definitely would have trouble in having to kill humans. As we see in her first time in Robona, Clare is perhaps nicer than most would be to the priests and such even after her general treatment from all involved. I do think however that generally speaking, she is far too caught up in her own revenge for Teresa to get too involved in Miria's revenge against the organisation and everything that we have so far learnt of it. Clare was perhaps a happy child whilst her family was alive but imagine the horror of the rest of her life until she meets Teresa? The relationship that is then established must have been truly treasured for both for their own reasons. To have lost it so soon, would have been pretty shattering I'd imagine. No wonder she sought revenge....

I'd have to disagree that Clare does not feel a strong bond towards humans. In general, perhaps that answer is yes, but she never stops searching for Raki, despite the attitude her comrades take regarding her plight. Even when others seem certain that he must be dead, Clare stubbornly refuses to believe he is gone and I believe would have/will continue to search for him even if/she does manage by some unbelievable force, to kill Pricilla. I think though that Raki will be there somehow for that end fight, although I hope it goes down differently then how seems to be getting set up for. Also, when Clare returns to Robona, she is adamant that no one else will die and sets her sights on destroying the AB there seemingly only due to this threat.

Now, on to the blob....

I personally hope that there is some kind of mental battle but not a definitive one, as in one wins, one dies, both / all die etc. All would be terrible plot outcomes in my opinion, especially with the future promise of the dragons; I for one want to see Pricilla kick some ass in that direction as well or just in general since so far we haven't gotten to see too much of her uber-ass-kicking abilities and i can't help but think that she must have some even better moves that just ripping her opponents in shreds with one bare hand. Every time I reread the arcs that show Rafaela, Rubel and Teresa after the Rafaela / Luciella incident, I can't help but feel that there is more going on there then is easily discerned (or at least hope so). If Clare has a "soul-link" with Rafaela / Luciella / Destroyer, who is it that she is connecting to?? I have reread the section where Rafaela, a recluse with completely suppressed yoki, is somehow located by Teresa in the forests near where she resides (whilst still being an unfinished trainee and no doubt still developing). If Teresa did have a PYSA ability, wouldn't she need some YR to locate Rafaela in the first place, unless there is an untold connection between the two?

Much as Clare has some of Teresa's flesh residing in her, I have thought that Teresa must have had a connection to Rafaela, either by birth or inserted later by the organisation. This would explain a lot, including Clare's link to the Destroyer and the fact that although the Destroyer seemingly absorbs / kills anything it touches, Clare is incorporated within the being as a conscious being / shared conscious being, and changes the goal to contain Pricilla rather than killing her. Plus Teresa being all round uber as Rafaela is probably the only other warrior we witness who seems similar in both uberness and non-yoki release.

My hope is that the connection is somehow there, Yagi to provide epic details later and that Clare/Destroyer share memories and somehow convince Pricilla into a temporary truce to kill remaining org and track down these dragons, leaving their epic battle to a later undisclosed date and terrible plot of org to be fully understood by the readers. Of course Pricilla would not be taken in by the reasoning of saving humanity, but maybe saving it from its current masters so that new ones can take over .... Clare of course biding her time to take her down before the very end...

Anywho, thanks to anyone who reads, sorry again for bringing up an old thread :)
J

metalia
May 17, 2012, 11:43 AM
The manga suggests the contrary, old claymores are stronger:

Isley, Teresa or Priscilla are probably unbeatable by new claymore's generation.
Miria is also extremly powerful.
Galatea kept a fight with nº4 miata (which has a yoki level near nº1) and awakened nº2 Agasa.

I think Sophia, Irene and Noel are very powerful as well, but they have been shown fighting against Teresa, this makes them look weaker than they really are.

Btw, I think there's only two claymores that are clearly more powerful than their old homologues: to me Alicia and Beth are more powerful than Rafaela and Luciela.

113
May 19, 2012, 03:51 AM
Alicia and Beth were engineered to destroy AB like Riful, so it would make sense that they are stronger. The first time you see Riful's awakened form, Alicia and her trainer are watching and it is mentioned that she in not yet strong enough to defeat her. Its mentioned that they will begin to increase her speed and power bit by bit over time to make her stronger.

Generally though, I'd say the older a claymore manages to get / survive to, the stronger they become, much like the decendants of dragons. Mainly I suppose because they have time to hone their skills and learn new ones. There must be a point though where a person stops gaining more power, perhaps once you awaken you cannot gain any further power then what you had as a claymore + reaching your full potential. But if you half awaken like Miria etc you can continue to gain power...?

Yomaslayer 95
May 19, 2012, 03:30 PM
Clare miria and the rest of the half awakened ghost's became much stronger after half awakening and continued to grow stronger afterwards.
So yes claymore's CAN gain more power even after half awakening:mono