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Fuji Shusuke
January 21, 2011, 01:40 AM
Hello forumers. I have grouped all of the Prince of Tennis and New Prince of Tennis moves and techs into different ranks. These are from BOTH ANIME AND MANGA. Please comment on any mistakes and if you think a move shouldn't be that rank just say it. I will take any opinion into account.

Note: At the moment, all ranks are ordered.

Text in bold are recent additions to the list.

* The player cannot usually use the technique and certain requirements must be met to do so




Rank SSS

Ten’imuhou no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Perfection) – Echizen Nanjirou, Echizen Ryoma, Tezuka Kunimitsu


Rank SS


Zero-shiki Serve – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Niou Masaharu*
Yips (Cerebral Manipulation) – Yukimura Seichi
Tezuka Phantom – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Niou Masaharu*
Kuro no Aura (Black Aura) – Sanada Gen'ichirou
Rai: Strike like Lightning – Sanada Gen'ichirou, Echizen Ryoma*
Atobe Kingdom – Atobe Keigo
Duke Homerun – Duke Watanabe
Black Jack Knife – Oni Juujirou, Momoshiro Takeshi
Mach – Ochi Tsukimitsu


Rank S


Gen’u Yume Utsutsu (Illusion becoming a Conscious Dream) – Yamato Yudai
Sixth Counter: Hoshi Hanabi (Star Fireworks) – Fuji Shusuke
Mental Assassination – Ochi Tsukimitsu
Illusion – Niou Masaharu
Super Copy – Kabaji Munehiro
Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Hard Work) – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Kabaji Munehiro*, Niou Masaharu*, Echizen Ryoma
Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Great Wisdom) – Chitose Senri, Tezuka Kunimitsu, Niou Masaharu*, Echizen Ryoma
Bio-Magnetism – Keith
Danji no Natsu (Summer of Danji) – Danji Date
Danji no Haru (Springtime of Danji) – Danji Date, Kabaji Munehiro*
Angel Mode – Kirihara Akaya
Closed Eyes – Fuji Shusuke, Echizen Ryoma, Echizen Nanjirou, Fuwa Tetsuhito
Fifth Counter: Hecatoncheires no Monban (Gatekeeper of the One-Hundred Armed Giant) – Fuji Shusuke
In: Unpredictable like a Shadow – Sanada Gen'ichirou
Koori no Sekai (World of Ice) – Atobe Keigo, Echizen Ryoma*, Irie Kanata
Zero-shiki Drop Shot – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Echizen Ryoma, Kabaji Munehiro*, Niou Masaharu*
Samurai/Tezuka Zone – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Echizen Nanjirou, Kabaji Munehiro*, Echizen Ryoma, Niou Masaharu*
Clone Technique – Tooyama Kintarou
Muga no Kyouchi (State of Self-Actualisation) – Tezuka Kunimitsu, Echizen Nanjirou, Echizen Ryoma, Sanada Gen'ichirou, Yukimura Seichi, Chitose Senri, Kirihara Akaya
Moujuu no Aura (Beast’s Aura) – Tachibana Kippei, Kamio Akira, Ishida Tetsu
Five Ball Return – Tokugawa Kazuya, Oni Juujirou, Echizen Ryoma, Tooyama Kintarou, Sanada Gen'ichirou, Akutsu Jin
Samurai Drive – Echizen Ryoma
Bakyuun – Taira Yoshiyuki
Super Megaton Wonder Deluxe Yama Funka Serve (Volcano Serve) – Tooyama Kintarou
Super Ultra Great Delicious Daisharin Yama Arashi (Crazy Mountain Storm) – Tooyama Kintarou, Echizen Ryoma*
Vanish – Izou Hakamada
Doukoku e no Gigue (Gigue towards Lamentation) – Atobe Keigo
Shitsui e no Fugue (Fugue towards Despair) – Atobe Keigo
Synchro – [Oishi Shuichirou, Kikumaru Eiji][Issa Washio, Shun Suzuki][Mutsu Yuma, Mutsu Yuho][Niou Masaharu*]
Moujuu no Synchro (Beast’s Synchro) – [Tachibana Kippei, Chitose Senri]
Abare Dama (Wild Ball) – Tachibana Kippei, Echizen Ryoma*
Execution Style 12: Electric Chair – Tohno Atsukyou
COOL Drive – Echizen Ryoma
Myougi: Tsuna Watari (Wondrous Technique: Tightrope Walking) – Marui Bunta, Chitose Senri*
Kamikakushi (Divine Disappearance) – Chitose Senri, Tezuka Kunimitsu*, Echizen Ryoma*
Right Saver – Migihashi Itarou
Southern Cross – Liliaden Krauser
Bible Tennis – Shiraishi Kuranosuke, Niou Masaharu*
Utsusemi (Cicada) – Yanagi Renji


Rank A


Devil Mode – Kirihara Akaya, Kaidoh Kaoru
Lateral Shukuchihou (Lateral Shukuchi Method) – Kite Eishiro
Cyclone Smash – Echizen Ryoma, Kevin Smith*
Mienai Serve (Invisible Serve) – Sanada Gen'ichirou
Triple Counter: Houou Gaeshi (Phoenix Return) – Fuji Shusuke
Triple Counter: Kirin Otoshi (Kirin Drop) – Fuji Shusuke
Triple Counter: Hakuryu (White Dragon) – Fuji Shusuke
Hametsu e no Rondo (Rondo towards Destruction) – Atobe Keigo, Echizen Ryoma
Fuu: Swift like the Wind – Sanada Gen'ichirou, Echizen Ryoma*
Rin: Quiet like the Forest – Sanada Gen'ichirou
Ka: Invade like Fire – Sanada Gen'ichirou, Tezuka Kunimitsu*, Echizen Ryoma*, Kirihara Akaya*
Zan: Immovable like a Mountain – Sanada Gen'ichirou
Insight – Atobe Keigo
Mienai Swing (Invisible Swing) – Sanada Gen'ichirou, Echzen Ryoma*
Haritsuku Gomen (Dismissal by Crucifixion) – Liliaden Krauser
Flower – Matsudaira Chikahiko
Closed Mind – Oshitari Yuushi
Impression – Hitouji Yuuji
Gyro Laser – Kaidoh Kaoru
Neo-Scud Serve – Ootori Choutarou
Waterfall – Inui Sadaharu
Curving Laser – Yagyuu Hiroshi
Laser Beam – Yagyuu Hiroshi, Niou Masaharu, Kaidoh Kaoru, Kirihara Akaya*
Final Hadoukyu – Kawamura Takashi
108th Style Hadoukyu – Ishida Gin, Kawamura Takashi
Tannhauser Serve – Atobe Keigo, Echizen Ryoma*
Gemini – Xiu, Peter, Keith
Execution Style 13: Guillotine – Tohno Atsukyou
Moukohan (Fierce Tiger's Meal) – Hara Tetsuya
Myougi: Jikansa Jigoku (Wondrous Technique: Time Differential Hell) – Marui Bunta
Myougi: Tetchuu Atte (Wondrous Technique: Iron Pole Strike) – Marui Bunta, Kirihara Akaya*
Fourth Counter: Kagerou Zutsumi (Dragonfly Illusion) – Fuji Shusuke
Abare Jishi (Wild Lion) – Tachibana Kippei
Entaku Shot (Roundtable Shot) – Shiraishi Kuranosuke, Echizen Ryoma*
Ohabu (Giant Habu) – Hirakoba Rin
Bloodshot Mode – Kirihara Akaya
Shukuchihou (Shukuchi Method) – Presumably all of Higa, Echizen Ryoma*
Triple Counter: Tsubame Gaeshi (Swallow Return) – Fuji Shusuke, Tezuka Kunimitsu*
Triple Counter: Higuma Otoshi (Bear Drop) – Fuji Shusuke, Oshitari Yuushi, Kevin Smith*, Atobe Keigo, Kirihara Akaya*, Echizen Ryoma*
Triple Counter: Hakugei (White Whale) – Fuji Shusuke
Forced Cord Ball – Fuji Shusuke, Echizen Ryoma, Kentaro Aoi, Nakagauchi Sotomichi
Data Tennis – Inui Sadaharu, Mizuki Hajime, Yanagi Renji, Konjiki Koharu, Mitsuya Akuto
Drive C – Echizen Ryoma
Hadoukyu Parry – Ishida Gin
Dash Hadoukyu – Kawamura Takashi
Backhand Hadoukyu – Ishida Tetsu
DFDR (Direct Flat Drive Return) – Oshitari Yuushi
Calm Insight – Momoshiro Takeshi
Nezumihana Beat (Pinwheel Beat) – Jackal Kuwahara


Rank B


Tornado Snake – Kaidoh Kaoru, Hitouji Yuuji*, Momoshiro Takeshi
Habu – Hirakoba Rin, Kite Eishiro, Tezuka Kunimitsu*
Big Bang – Tanishi Kei, Echizen Ryoma*, Kite Eishiro, Tezuka Kunimitsu*
Gansu Hadoukyu (Original Wave Shot) – Ishida Tetsu, Ishida Gin, Kawamura Takashi
Two-handed Hadoukyu – Kawamura Takashi, Kabaji Munehiro, Echizen Ryoma*
Scud Serve – Ootori Choutarou
Magnum Serve – Matsudaira Chikahiko
Super Sonic Serve – Inui Sadaharu
Seal Step – Kikumaru Eiji, Oshitari Kenya, Echizen Ryoma*
Super Great Momoshiro Special/Super Dunk – Momoshiro Takeshi
Hadoukyu Boomerang – Kaidoh Kaoru
Disappearing Cut Serve – Fuji Shusuke
Kamaitachi – Yanagi Renji, Kirihara Akaya*, Echizen Ryoma*
Spot – Ibu Shinji, Echizen Ryoma*
Illusion Shot – Kevin Smith
Golf Swing – Yagyuu Hiroshi
I Formation – [Oishi Shuichirou, Kikumaru Eiji]
Australian Formation – [Oishi Shuichirou, Kikumaru Eiji][Kikumaru Eiji, Momoshiro Takeshi][Fuji Shusuke, Saeki Kojirou]
Enbu Tennis – Hiyoshi Wakashi, Echizen Ryoma*
Viking Horn – Kai Yuujirou, Echizen Ryoma*, Atobe Keigo, Kite Eishiro
Deep Impulse – Shinjyo Reiji
Sonic Bullet – Kamio Akira
Drive D – Echizen Ryoma
Drive B – Echizen Ryoma, Dan Taichi, Kirihara Akaya*, Kevin Smith
Twist Spin Shot – Fuji Yuuta, Kirihara Akaya
S.S.A.S (Sidespin Approach Shot) – Oshitari Yuushi
F & D (Fake and Drop Shot) – Oshitari Yuushi
Magic Volley – Akutagawa Jirou
Teleport Dash – Shishido Ryou
Blurring Dash – Oshitari Kenya, Kikumaru Eiji
Kohou (Tiger Cannon) – Sengoku Kiyosumi
Moon Volley – Oishi Shuichirou
Dunk Smash – Momoshiro Takeshi, Sengoku Kiyosumi, Wakato Hiroshi, Echizen Ryoma*, Hitouji Yuuji*
Boomerang Snake – Kaidoh Kaoru, Jackal Kuwahara, Yagyuu Hiroshi
Twist Spin Smash – Echizen Ryoma
Twist Serve – Echizen Ryoma, Kirihara Akaya, Kevin Smith, Dan Taichi
Kikumaru Bazooka – Kikumaru Eiji
Kikumaru Beam – Kikumaru Eiji
Jackknife – Momoshro Takeshi, Atobe Keigo, Inui Sadaharu, Kaidoh Kaoru
Moon Salute – Mukahi Gakuto
F.A.S (Flat Approach Shot) – Oshitari Yuushi
Short Snake – Kaidoh Kaoru, Kirihara Akaya
Reverse Snake – Kaidoh Akaya
Acrobatic Play – Kikumaru Eiji, Mukahi Gakuto
Diving Volley – Kikumaru Eiji, Mukahi Gakuto
Sky Inversion Drop Shot – Kisarazu Atsushi, Echizen Ryoma, Chitose Senri
Change Over – Wakato Hiroshi
One-footed Split Step – Echizen Ryoma, Kirihara Akaya, Fuji Shusuke


Rank C


HB (Hopping Ball) – Liliaden Krauser
Super Rising – Fuji Yuuta, Echizen Ryoma, Akutagawa Jirou, Tachibana Kippei, Marui Bunta, Inui Sadaharu, Atobe Keigo
Rising Counter – Shishido Ryou
Kick Serve – Ibu Shinji
Burning Serve – Kawamura Takeshi
Dangan Serve (Bullet Serve) – Sasabe, Momoshiro Takeshi
Drive A – Echizen Ryoma
Snake – Kaidoh Kaoru, Wakato Hiroshi*
Buggy Whip Shot – Kaidoh Kaoru, Echizen Ryoma, Wakato Hiroshi
Pronation Serve – Kurobane Harukaze
Quick-motion Serve – Kamio Akira
Burning Shot – Kawamura Takashi
Blurring Ball – Akazawa Yoshirou, Echizen Ryoma*
Split Step – Echizen Ryoma, Kirihara Akaya
Double Approach – [Fukawa Kimiyoshi, Izumi Tomoya][Oishi Shuichirou, Kikumaru Eiji][Hiyoshi Wakashi, Mukahi Gakuto]
Rhythm Dash – Kamio Akira, Echizen Ryoma*
Carioca Step – Tanishi Kei
Sinker – Itsuki Marehiko

Kaoz
January 21, 2011, 10:07 AM
Firstly, D and E Tier seem kinda useless, I'd suggest to remove them.

Now regarding the actual moves:
-Why is In so high, it can seal one move which isn't very common anyway.
-Yips should be higher, probably above/below or in between Hyakuren and Saiki.
-Hecatoncheires no Monban should be highest of the counters, Hoshi Hanabi is stronger, granted, but also rather situational.
-Laser Beam (Yagyuu) and Koori no Sekai should be higher.

I'm lazy and leave it at that for now.

Fuji Shusuke
January 21, 2011, 12:33 PM
Firstly, D and E Tier seem kinda useless, I'd suggest to remove them.

Now regarding the actual moves:
-Why is In so high, it can seal one move which isn't very common anyway.
-Yips should be higher, probably above/below or in between Hyakuren and Saiki.
-Hecatoncheires no Monban should be highest of the counters, Hoshi Hanabi is stronger, granted, but also rather situational.
-Laser Beam (Yagyuu) and Koori no Sekai should be higher.

I'm lazy and leave it at that for now.
These are just groups. If you want me to order them its fine. Changes made to Laser Beam. Removed D and E. Can World of Ice defeat a lot of the moves in SS? I reckon Shadow is alright because I'm taking into account efficiency, effectiveness and difficulty.
-Shadow is efficient because it doesn't sap away energy and can be pulled out at anytime.
-It's effective because it can defeat high-level moves (not necessarily has to defeat a lot).
-It's a difficult move which a lot of people can't do.
[hr]
Rank SS ordered.

Kaoz
January 21, 2011, 03:02 PM
These are just groups. If you want me to order them its fine. Changes made to Laser Beam. Removed D and E. Can World of Ice defeat a lot of the moves in SS?

I wouldn't say it's necessarily good enough to be in SS, rather that certain other moves should drop to S, namely In, Hoshi Hanabi and Illusion.
For In see below. Regarding Hoshi Hanabi, it can only be used after a cord ball, whereas Hecatoncheires can be used from any position. Furhtermore there probably wouldn't be many opponents that have just enough spin to make that cord ball happen after Heca. To make it short, Hoshi Hanabi is too situational to be in SS imo.
Finally, Illusion. I think it stands to drop as we came to the conclusion that Niou doesn't really copy a player, but just pretends to do so, I'll elaborate when needed.



I reckon Shadow is alright because I'm taking into account efficiency, effectiveness and difficulty.
-Shadow is efficient because it doesn't sap away energy and can be pulled out at anytime.
-It's effective because it can defeat high-level moves (not necessarily has to defeat a lot).
-It's a difficult move which a lot of people can't do.


-looking only at the SS moves, only ZSD, ZSS, TPhantom and Rai lower the player's stamina enough to mention
-it can defeat one high-level move, an extremly rare one at that
-that shouldn't be a criteria imo; imagine a very complicated technique that actually doesn't do much though, with this criteria it'd get a boost but it's still bad; it's your list though, so do as you wish (and put the criteria into the OP)

Fuji Shusuke
January 22, 2011, 02:53 AM
I wouldn't say it's necessarily good enough to be in SS, rather that certain other moves should drop to S, namely In, Hoshi Hanabi and Illusion.
For In see below. Regarding Hoshi Hanabi, it can only be used after a cord ball, whereas Hecatoncheires can be used from any position. Furhtermore there probably wouldn't be many opponents that have just enough spin to make that cord ball happen after Heca. To make it short, Hoshi Hanabi is too situational to be in SS imo.
Finally, Illusion. I think it stands to drop as we came to the conclusion that Niou doesn't really copy a player, but just pretends to do so, I'll elaborate when needed.



-looking only at the SS moves, only ZSD, ZSS, TPhantom and Rai lower the player's stamina enough to mention
-it can defeat one high-level move, an extremly rare one at that
-that shouldn't be a criteria imo; imagine a very complicated technique that actually doesn't do much though, with this criteria it'd get a boost but it's still bad; it's your list though, so do as you wish (and put the criteria into the OP)

Noted. Hecatoncheires moved to SS. Illusion stays because you can do high level moves with ease. With Shadow, I don't even know what to do with it so I moved it down to 8. Now it is lower that Hyakuren.
[hr]
Rank S ordered.
[hr]
Rank A ordered.

steelwingcrash1
January 22, 2011, 05:55 AM
1. I think it is important to see the Ranks D and E move list so that we can better justify them.
2. Bible Tennis is not a move, right? It's a method of game play.

Still, I like the list.

Fuji Shusuke
January 22, 2011, 10:06 AM
1. I think it is important to see the Ranks D and E move list so that we can better justify them.
2. Bible Tennis is not a move, right? It's a method of game play.

Still, I like the list.
This list includes all things like play styles, personal effects, in-game techniques, the whole lot.

Kaoz
January 22, 2011, 12:19 PM
With Shadow, I don't even know what to do with it so I moved it down to 8. Now it is lower that Hyakuren.


It should be lower than Closed Eyes at least. Closed Eyes can counter Saiki as well (which is pretty much the only thing In is good for), but also counters any illusion-like technique, probably even stuff like KnS.
Personally, I think neither should be in SS though.


1. I think it is important to see the Ranks D and E move list so that we can better justify them.


What do you want to justify there? It only included basic strokes like forehand, backhand etc. and was listed for all characters anyway.

Bowser
January 22, 2011, 03:53 PM
Southern Cross is way better than the position it's currently in. It's an almost guaranteed 1 hit killer against players non top tier players.

Fuji Shusuke
January 23, 2011, 12:10 AM
Southern Cross is way better than the position it's currently in. It's an almost guaranteed 1 hit killer against players non top tier players.
Good point. Because of the fact it ends the game quickly, moved up 4 positions to 41.
[hr]

It should be lower than Closed Eyes at least. Closed Eyes can counter Saiki as well (which is pretty much the only thing In is good for), but also counters any illusion-like technique, probably even stuff like KnS.
Personally, I think neither should be in SS though.



What do you want to justify there? It only included basic strokes like forehand, backhand etc. and was listed for all characters anyway.
Noted. Shadow and Closed Eyes Moved to top of S.

steelwingcrash1
January 23, 2011, 06:00 AM
Somehow, I'm kind of predicting that there is also another high school player who can break Teni Muhou no Kiwami. Or if not, a player who can also use it.

i wonder what Fuji's next counters look like? He's like the best character in the game for me.

For me though, I think the Nezumihana Beat should go down one level. We weren't able to see much from that one, I guess.

Fuji Shusuke
January 23, 2011, 11:07 AM
Somehow, I'm kind of predicting that there is also another high school player who can break Teni Muhou no Kiwami. Or if not, a player who can also use it.

i wonder what Fuji's next counters look like? He's like the best character in the game for me.

For me though, I think the Nezumihana Beat should go down one level. We weren't able to see much from that one, I guess.
Nezumihana Beat is a defense and should not be underestimated. To average and some high-level players, they can't even get a ball past Jackal. I'm keeping it in Rank A.

Kaoz
January 23, 2011, 12:10 PM
Noted. Shadow and Closed Eyes Moved to top of S.

You still didn't give any reasoning why In is above Closed Eyes and why Hecatoncheires is below Hoshi Hanabi.

What else... Angel Mode should probably go up a bit. Angel!Akaya should be 2nd court material.


Somehow, I'm kind of predicting that there is also another high school player who can break Teni Muhou no Kiwami. Or if not, a player who can also use it.

Kazuya might be able to break/surpass it. We didn't see his match vs Ryoma completly and it's possible Ryoma used TnK.

Fuji Shusuke
January 24, 2011, 01:34 AM
You still didn't give any reasoning why In is above Closed Eyes and why Hecatoncheires is below Hoshi Hanabi.

What else... Angel Mode should probably go up a bit. Angel!Akaya should be 2nd court material.



Kazuya might be able to break/surpass it. We didn't see his match vs Ryoma completly and it's possible Ryoma used TnK.
I totally forgot about Closed Eyes. However Yukimura's Yips might be broken out of with Closed Eyes because by getting rid of sight, you heighten the other senses and it is the constant IMAGE that pops into your head. Shadow can also break out of it. So it's even, but that is only one situation. We can't make a decision yet about it.

Hoshi Hanabi is rather situational, I know. I'm not sure about this one. Hoshi Hanabi works when Hecatatoncheires is returned. Heca is a strong move on it's own and so is Hoshi Hanabi. I guess since Hoshi Hanabi is an 'in case' move I'll push Hecatoncheires up.

Bowser
January 24, 2011, 02:56 PM
No, In and Closed Eyes can't break out of Yips. You even said it yourself, it "heightens" other senses - Yips kills those senses.

Kaoz
January 24, 2011, 05:20 PM
No, In and Closed Eyes can't break out of Yips. You even said it yourself, it "heightens" other senses - Yips kills those senses.

This is most likely correct.

Closed Eyes counter:
-Saiki
-Illusion
-maybe KnS, not sure about that one
-maybe Gen'U Yume Utsutsu, not sure here either

In counters:
-Saiki

Fuji Shusuke
January 25, 2011, 02:49 AM
Yips works by giving the opponent that all of their balls are useless and returning the ball becomes frightening. It first starts off as a series of image flashes in their head when they return the ball, telling them its useless. By closing your eyes, images don't come to you because you originally didn't see the ball being returned. Am I making sense? :s Basically what I'm saying is: Can't see ball = No images in head = Can't seal sense = Other senses heightened = Pwnage :D:D:D

Bowser
January 25, 2011, 11:36 AM
No, Yuki would still trump Fuji. Ball would still get returned anyway. You eventually feel you can't win. You lose your touch first anwyay. Hell Closed Eyes shouldn't be that high to be fair. World of Ice should be right near the top as well.

Fuji Shusuke
January 25, 2011, 12:31 PM
Many changes to Rank S:
- Closed Eyes higher than Shadow
- Samurai Drive higher than Super Ultra Great (etc lol)
- Tannhausser Serve moved down
- World of Ice higher than Tannhauser
[hr]
Rank B ordered. There is probably a large amount of errors in Rank B. Please point them out.

Kaoz
January 29, 2011, 06:51 PM
Yama Arashi, Tezuka Zone and World of Ice should be at the top of S, maybe even bottom of SS.
Closed Eyes and In should move down further, they just aren't that useful outside of specific situations, personally I'd put CE just Bible Tennis and In belwow Fuu or something.
Maybe remove the specific parts and add FuuRinKaZan as a whole instead, it's even described as one technique by Inui (Link (http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of-Tennis/chapter-230/page012.html)), around where Ka currently is would be good I think.
You have Kite's Shukuchihou listed twice, I'd remove the higher one.
Angel Mode should go way up, if the current theories are correct, it makes Akaya a second court player.
What's the difference between Devil Mode and Super Devil Mode? Is the former Bloodshot Mode?
Cut Serve could go up a bit, either top of B or in the lower half of A.
Magic Volley has to go up a lot, at least above Golf Swing.

That's everything for now.

FujiNumberOne
April 24, 2011, 12:45 AM
This is most likely correct.

Closed Eyes counter:
-Saiki
-Illusion
-maybe KnS, not sure about that one
-maybe Gen'U Yume Utsutsu, not sure here either

In counters:
-Saiki

I'd say CE definitely counters GUYU, since GUYU is completely predicated on creating an illusion of the ball.

I agree that TZ and World of Ice should be in SS. And I also agree the Magic Volley definitely needs to be a lot higher. While the pole shot isn't super difficult to return, Tight Rope Walking is. How can you return a shot that never DOESN'T touch the net without touching the net with your racket? It is technically possible, but ridiculously difficult.

And I don't see why Zero-Shiki Serve and Tannhäuser Serve aren't both at the same position, since they are technically the same thing, just different directions.

Also, Houo Gaeshi should also probably be higher than it is. While I think Hakuryu is a better technique, it's situational while Houo Gaeshi isn't. That's the only reason that I don't think both should be moved higher.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 01:37 AM
I'd say CE definitely counters GUYU, since GUYU is completely predicated on creating an illusion of the ball.

I agree that TZ and World of Ice should be in SS. And I also agree the Magic Volley definitely needs to be a lot higher. While the pole shot isn't super difficult to return, Tight Rope Walking is. How can you return a shot that never DOESN'T touch the net without touching the net with your racket? It is technically possible, but ridiculously difficult.

I'd put TZone and WoI (KnS, if you prefer) above In, and as the best two moves, respectively, in the S tier.

Considering that Closed Eyes can at the very least counter Saiki, shouldn't it be in the SS tier? I personally think that Closed Eyes should move above Niou's Illusion, but that's as far as I'd put it. Even though Closed Eyes can counter Saiki, Saiki's more versatile than Closed Eyes, so Saiki's still a better move.


And I don't see why Zero-Shiki Serve and Tannhäuser Serve aren't both at the same position, since they are technically the same thing, just different directions.

Also, Houo Gaeshi should also probably be higher than it is. While I think Hakuryu is a better technique, it's situational while Houo Gaeshi isn't. That's the only reason that I don't think both should be moved higher.

Zero-Shiki Serve can't be returned except by plothax as it never bounces; the second it lands it just rolls backwards to a halt without ever leaving the gorund. Tannhauser Serve can be returned as long as you understand how to return it; when Ryoma uses the Tannhauser Serve against Atobe, Atobe returns it. Tannhauser Serve works along the same principle as Cool Drive and Tsubame/Hohou Gaeshi. It lands and then hovers imperceptibly above the ground all the way until the backstop.

Zero-Shiki Serve is a significantly better move than Tannhauser Serve.

I honestly think that a lot of the Rank S moves need to be reordered, but it's all too subjective. For example, I think that Neo-Scud Serve and Waterfall are way too highly ranked. I also believe that Shiraishi's Bible and the evolved Triple Counters should be above Laser Beam and Cool Drive.

Kaoz
April 24, 2011, 03:33 AM
I'd say CE definitely counters GUYU, since GUYU is completely predicated on creating an illusion of the ball.

Well, I brought CE up as a counter when the chapter was first discussed, but quite a few people disagreed with me iirc, so I only listed it as possible counter. Personally, I think it does counter GUYU.


I agree that TZ and World of Ice should be in SS. And I also agree the Magic Volley definitely needs to be a lot higher. While the pole shot isn't super difficult to return, Tight Rope Walking is. How can you return a shot that never DOESN'T touch the net without touching the net with your racket? It is technically possible, but ridiculously difficult.

I believe you're talking about Myougi here and not Magic Volley.


And I don't see why Zero-Shiki Serve and Tannhäuser Serve aren't both at the same position, since they are technically the same thing, just different directions.

Zero-Shiki Serve can't be returned except by plothax as it never bounces; the second it lands it just rolls backwards to a halt without ever leaving the gorund. Tannhauser Serve can be returned as long as you understand how to return it; when Ryoma uses the Tannhauser Serve against Atobe, Atobe returns it. Tannhauser Serve works along the same principle as Cool Drive and Tsubame/Hohou Gaeshi. It lands and then hovers imperceptibly above the ground all the way until the backstop.

Zero-Shiki Serve is a significantly better move than Tannhauser Serve.

^This

Up to this point, only Sanada returned ZSS, but Atobe and Hiyoshi both returned THS, and Tachibana has shown that he could probably do it by returning Tsubame Gaeshi after it bounced.


Considering that Closed Eyes can at the very least counter Saiki, shouldn't it be in the SS tier? I personally think that Closed Eyes should move above Niou's Illusion, but that's as far as I'd put it. Even though Closed Eyes can counter Saiki, Saiki's more versatile than Closed Eyes, so Saiki's still a better move.

The problem I have with CE in SS, is that it counters 3-4 moves and is pretty much useless outside of that. I don't think that's worthy of SS tier tbh.


I honestly think that a lot of the Rank S moves need to be reordered, but it's all too subjective. For example, I think that Neo-Scud Serve and Waterfall are way too highly ranked. I also believe that Shiraishi's Bible and the evolved Triple Counters should be above Laser Beam and Cool Drive.

I'll try to throw something together later today when you guys don't mind.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 10:45 AM
The problem I have with CE in SS, is that it counters 3-4 moves and is pretty much useless outside of that. I don't think that's worthy of SS tier tbh.

It doesn't just counter 3-4 moves. Remember the Fuji vs Kirihara match? For a time, until Kirihara started dragging his racket along the ground to distract Fuji, Kirihara couldn't get a single point off of Fuji because he couldn't predict where Fuji would be. CE also has regular uses in matches; I don't understand why he didn't use CE against Shiraishi.


I'll try to throw something together later today when you guys don't mind.

All right.

FujiNumberOne
April 24, 2011, 11:50 AM
Hmm, are we sure that THS bounces? I thought it didn't bounce at all, and the only way that Atobe returned it is by hitting it at the instant the serve hit the ground. I might be wrong though. I was a little fuzzy on the explanation they gave.

Kaoz
April 24, 2011, 03:48 PM
Hmm, are we sure that THS bounces? I thought it didn't bounce at all, and the only way that Atobe returned it is by hitting it at the instant the serve hit the ground. I might be wrong though. I was a little fuzzy on the explanation they gave.


chaosmaster1991 (20:42:48): http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of-Tennis/chapter-236/page006.html
considering that both Echizen and Atobe can hit these kind of shots constantly, was Sanada wrong with this explantion?
Sai the Shaman (20:43:47): no
Sai the Shaman (20:43:56): it just shows the amount of skill ryoma and atobe have
chaosmaster1991 (20:45:26): I see... but the ball does bounce, yes? it's not like Zero Shiki Drop/Serve where there's no bounce at all?
Sai the Shaman (20:46:59): supposedly, there is no real bounce, but unlike zeroshiki it shoots forward at incredible pace so it's still not impossible to return
Sai the Shaman (20:47:06): you can use your racket to scoop it
Sai the Shaman (20:47:13): which is what I assume yukimura did
chaosmaster1991 (20:47:47): and that's the same Atobe's Front Foot Hop does I take it?
Sai the Shaman (20:48:18): for the most part. the point of the front foot hop was to provide extra puch and lift
chaosmaster1991 (20:51:08): so Yukimura is the only one that can return these kind of shots from the baseline and everyone else has to use a variation of a rising shot?
Sai the Shaman (20:51:26): possibly
chaosmaster1991 (20:51:42): great, do you mind me copypasting this?
Sai the Shaman (20:51:48): if you want
Sai the Shaman (20:51:49): lol
chaosmaster1991 (20:51:51): thanks
Sai the Shaman (20:52:03): yukimura uses a variation of a rising too
chaosmaster1991 (20:52:22): well yes, but everyone else hit the ball right after it bounced
Sai the Shaman (20:52:31): yeah
Sai the Shaman (20:53:25): the theory here is that yuki let it roll which negates the over spin factor (see vs. Tanishi) and he has the racket control to let the ball roll onto his racket and then push from there back over
chaosmaster1991 (20:53:44): ic

This applies to all of COOL Drive, Tannhauser Serve, Shitsu e no Fugue, Tsubame Gaeshi and Houou Gaeshi, though the former three seem to have more power than Fuji's counters, making it much harder to hit them before they touch the ground (see what happened to Tanishi as reference).
[hr]
SSS

TnK - Echizen, Tezuka

SS

Black Jack Knife - Oni
Rai - Sanada
Tezuka Phantom - Tezuka
Yips - Yukimura
Zero Shiki Serve - Tezuka

S

Angel Mode - Kirihara
Atobe Kingdom - Atobe
FuuRinKaZan - Sanada
Hecatoncheires no Monban - Fuji
Hoshi Hanabi - Fuji
Hyakuren Jitoku no Kiwami - Tezuka, Echizen
Koori no Sekai - Atobe
Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami - Chitose, Tezuka, Echizen
Samurai Drive - Echizen
Simple Minded - Kabaji
Super Ultra Great Delicious Daisharin Yama Arashi - Tooyama
Tezuka Zone - Tezuka
Zero Shiki Drop Shot - Tezuka, Echizen

A

108 Style Hadokyuu - Ishida G.
Abare Dama - Tachibana
Bible - Shiraishi
Closed Eyes - Fuji
COOL Drive - Echizen
Data Tennis - Yanagi
Devil Mode - Kirihara
Evolved Triple Counter - Fuji
Final Hadokyuu - Kawamura
Flower Serve - Matsudaira Chikahiko
Gen'U Yume Utsutsu - Yamato
Illusion - Niou
Kamikakushi - Chitose
Lateral Shukuchihou - Kite
Moujuu no Aura - Kamio, Ishida T., Tachibana, Chitose
Muga no Kyouchi - Echizen, Kirihara, Sanada, Kabaji (?), Chitose, Niou (?), Yukimura
Shitsu e no Fugue - Atobe
Southern Cross - Krauser
Synchro - Oishi, Kikumaru, Washio, Suzuki
Tannhauser Serve - Atobe, Echizen

B

Big Bang - Tanishi, Kite
Bloodshot Mode - Kirihara
Dash Hadokyuu - Kawamura
Data Tennis - Inui, Konjiki
Entaku Shot - Shiraishi
Gyro Laser - Kaidoh
O-Habu - Hirakoba
Hametsu e no Rondo - Atobe
Haritsuki Gomen - Krauser
In - Sanada
Kagero Zutsumi - Fuji
Myougi - Marui
Neo Scud Serve - Ootori
Nezumi HanaBEAT - Jackal
No Step Hadokyuu - Ishida T.
Laser Beam - Niou, Yagyuu, Kaidoh
Sealed Step - Kikumaru
Tornado Snake - Kaidoh
Triple Counter - Fuji
Waterfall - Inui

C to ?

everything else

That's what I would suggest for starters. Note that the techniques are not ordered within the tiers, I think it'd be better to agree on tiers first and discuss specific positions afterwards.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 06:27 PM
A few things about your list of techniques.

Echizen uses Saiki for one point, so that counts as him being able to use it.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/373/om/16/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/374/om/1/

He uses the Zero-Shiki Drop Shot on his own as well.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/154/om/12/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/154/om/13/

Kabaji and Niou don't actually use Muga, they just use Hyakuren, and Hyakuren and Saiki, respectively. You can say that Kabaji actually learns how to use Hyakuren, whereas it's only Niou's Illusion that grants him the ability to use Hyakuren and Saiki. I think it's doubtful that Niou could use Hyakuren or Saiki without using an Illusion of a player who can use them.

Chitose can use Moujuu no Aura, as he does when he plays doubles with Tachibana against Washio/Suzuki.

Apart from a few mentions on who actually performs the technique, I only have one or two comments. I don't think that Echizen should be credited as being able to use the technique if it's only when he's using Muga. For example, Echizen uses Tannhauser Serve while using Muga, but he can't naturally.

Aside from that, I think that Gen'U Yume Utsutsu and Closed Eyes should be in the S Tier.

Kaoz
April 24, 2011, 07:10 PM
A few things about your list of techniques.

Echizen uses Saiki for one point, so that counts as him being able to use it.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/373/om/16/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/374/om/1/

He uses the Zero-Shiki Drop Shot on his own as well.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/154/om/12/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/154/om/13/

Added.


Kabaji and Niou don't actually use Muga, they just use Hyakuren, and Hyakuren and Saiki, respectively. You can say that Kabaji actually learns how to use Hyakuren, whereas it's only Niou's Illusion that grants him the ability to use Hyakuren and Saiki. I think it's doubtful that Niou could use Hyakuren or Saiki without using an Illusion of a player who can use them.

http://translations.shamannet.com/?p=296


Is this Muga no Kyouchi, or is it…?

Niou’s “Illusion” and Kabaji’s “Copy” can reproduce Muga. However, whether this is really the attainment of “Muga no Kyouchi” is heavily argued.

I'll put (?) behind their names for now.


Chitose can use Moujuu no Aura, as he does when he plays doubles with Tachibana against Washio/Suzuki.

I didn't add Chitose for Moujuu because I'm not sure whether he can use the actual aura and not just the synchro form. I don't mind adding him though.


Apart from a few mentions on who actually performs the technique, I only have one or two comments. I don't think that Echizen should be credited as being able to use the technique if it's only when he's using Muga. For example, Echizen uses Tannhauser Serve while using Muga, but he can't naturally.

Anyone disagrees with this?


Aside from that, I think that Gen'U Yume Utsutsu and Closed Eyes should be in the S Tier.

Not sure, as GUYU only works against high level players that can anticipate the next shot, no comment on CE for now.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 07:47 PM
http://translations.shamannet.com/?p=296

I'll put (?) behind their names for now.

I'd forgotten that I'd seen that before...I'd seen that page once when I was looking through something.

Well, technically, as PoHW, PoGW, and TnK are doors "inside Muga," they are Muga, and this panel supports that. (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/311/om/5/)

So, I suppose it's fair to say that the whole list can use Muga. Although, I'd be more apt to put a (?) by Niou and Kabaji's names though.

So, I'd put it this way, I guess.

Muga no Kyouichi: Echizen, Tezuka, Yukimura, Sanada, Kirihara, Chitose, Nanjirou, Kabaji (?), Niou (?)

Also, Nanjirou can use TnK. ;)


I didn't add Chitose for Moujuu because I'm not sure whether he can use the actual aura and not just the synchro form. I don't mind adding him though.

Well, Kamio and Ishida Tetsu just use the synchro form, so, and you credited them. :P


Anyone disagrees with this?

Interestingly though, Echizen is able to just copy Matsudaira Chikao's Magnum Serve, who appears to be Matsudaira Chikahiko's younger brother or something, without the use of any Muga or previous experience.

http://somemanga.com/manga/New_Prince_of_Tennis/2/14/
http://somemanga.com/manga/New_Prince_of_Tennis/2/19/
http://somemanga.com/manga/New_Prince_of_Tennis/2/20/
http://somemanga.com/manga/New_Prince_of_Tennis/2/21/

Magnum Serve isn't even on the B Tier list, but I would say that Magnum Serve counts as one of Echizen's moves.


Not sure, as GUYU only works against high level players that can anticipate the next shot, no comment on CE for now.

You have a point there.

Kaoz
April 25, 2011, 04:45 AM
Well, Kamio and Ishida Tetsu just use the synchro form, so, and you credited them. :P

>_> You have a point there. Should there be a seperate entry for Moujuu Synchro then?


Interestingly though, Echizen is able to just copy Matsudaira Chikao's Magnum Serve, who appears to be Matsudaira Chikahiko's younger brother or something, without the use of any Muga or previous experience.

Magnum Serve isn't even on the B Tier list, but I would say that Magnum Serve counts as one of Echizen's moves.

Echizen copied other lower level techniques without Muga before, so that's not really a suprise.

FrostyMouse
April 25, 2011, 06:28 AM
>_> You have a point there. Should there be a seperate entry for Moujuu Synchro then?

If you want.


Echizen copied other lower level techniques without Muga before, so that's not really a suprise.

True. He copies the St. Rudolph's player's Sky Inversion Drop Shot, as well as some others.

Fuji Shusuke
April 26, 2011, 11:23 AM
OMG so many comments!!!! I'll take my time reading through and examining the comments and I'll state any changes I'm about to make.

Fuji Shusuke
October 13, 2011, 08:46 AM
This thread has been untouched for quite some time. I have revised Ranks SSS, SS and S. I don't really know all the recent techs so can you give me the Technique, Users and a suggested rank. Right now I'm stuck with Reflection Eyes, Danji of Summer, and is the Yukimura dream thing a separate tech?

Please help me complete this list. :tem :tem

LetalHawk
October 13, 2011, 08:52 AM
I'm not too sure to put Reflection, since that technique doesn't exist in S.POT, Summer of Danji would be an A or even S technique, and Yuki's world/dream SS ^^

Also, Izou's Vanish could be in the A tier with Taira's Bakyuun. Do you think Kawamura's final hadoukyuu technique should be A? I think it could perfectly be on the S Tier

Fuji Shusuke
October 13, 2011, 08:58 AM
I'm not too sure to put Reflection, since that technique doesn't exist in S.POT, Summer of Danji would be an A or even S technique, and Yuki's world/dream SS ^^

Also, Izou's Vanish could be in the A tier with Taira's Bakyuun. Do you think Kawamura's final hadoukyuu technique should be A? I think it could perfectly be on the S Tier

Thanks, I'll try to fit these in.

Kaoz
October 13, 2011, 11:18 AM
This thread has been untouched for quite some time. I have revised Ranks SSS, SS and S. I don't really know all the recent techs so can you give me the Technique, Users and a suggested rank. Right now I'm stuck with Reflection Eyes, Danji of Summer, and is the Yukimura dream thing a separate tech?

Please help me complete this list. :tem :tem

For all we know, the dream part is an extension of Yips, so it's not really a new technique.

Furthermore, some people (myself included) doubt that Fuwa actually has Mirror Eyes. We think that he was already caught in the extended Yips when that part was shown.

Fuji Shusuke
October 14, 2011, 12:16 AM
Since Yips is already a Rank SS tech, I don't think I'll need to put a separate entry for dreaming. I'll put Vanish in S but it could be an A. Bakyuun would go in A. I'll add Shitsui e no Fugue to S. Danji of Summer will go in S but maybe even SS. Added Moujuu no Aura and Moujuu no Synchro so Rank S. Also, should FuuRinKaZan be made into one, or stay separate? In my opinion, they all have different power levels. Even though they are one technique some seem more returnable than others. Any thoughts and anything I miss?

Surprise
October 14, 2011, 01:04 AM
It should probably be seperate techniques, the problem is that we have no idea what to do with zan.

Dressrosa
October 14, 2011, 01:32 AM
Separate techniques. But it's true though that we have yet to see what Zan is.

Momo can use BJK now so I guess it's alright to put his name besides Oni there.

Kaoz
October 14, 2011, 02:42 AM
I think FuuRinKaZan should be combined in one entry, as the reason why it's good in the first place is it's ability to counter various playstyles.

Fuji Shusuke
October 14, 2011, 03:15 AM
However, people have copied individual moves of the FuuRinKaZan. Ryoma used Fuu, Tezuka and Kirihara have used Ka. If I combined them, do I put down those names, even though they have not used the rest of FuuRinKaZan?

Kaoz
October 14, 2011, 03:54 AM
You could maybe rank FuuRinKaZan for Sanada, and then the individual parts for those that copied them?

Fuji Shusuke
October 14, 2011, 04:26 AM
For Yukimura's Yips, I put it as Cerebral Manipulation. What do you think? Also, what do you reckon of Ranks S, A and B?

FrostyMouse
October 14, 2011, 05:44 AM
I originally argued that unless a character has made the move theirs, then it shouldn't be counted as something that they can actually do. For example, Echizen can use Hametsu e no Rondo, as he uses that outside Muga. Echizen copies Fuu and Rai with Muga, but he never uses them on his own.

Fuji Shusuke
October 14, 2011, 04:15 PM
I originally argued that unless a character has made the move theirs, then it shouldn't be counted as something that they can actually do. For example, Echizen can use Hametsu e no Rondo, as he uses that outside Muga. Echizen copies Fuu and Rai with Muga, but he never uses them on his own.
I don't really like this idea. This basically is not counting Muga copied moves. Kabaji can copy without being in Muga, Atobe can also use other people's techniques like Higuma Otoshi, Ryoma can also use other techs without Muga, Kirihara used a Short Snake once without Muga. If they only used it once, it's not counted because it's not really their technique? The fact they used it shows the capacity that they can use it again. You also said Echizen can use Hametsu e no Rondo without Muga, it's not really 'his' tech and he doesn't use it that often but you still counted it.

---------- Post added October 15, 2011 at 05:15 AM ---------- Previous post was October 14, 2011 at 08:13 PM ----------

Minor edits added:
- Summer of Danji and Springtime of Danji.
- Tooyama's Super Megaton Serve
- Moukohan, the one that hit Kenya's *** (I have no clue whether I should put this down or not)
- DFDR

FrostyMouse
October 14, 2011, 09:18 PM
If it's just you doing the move tiering, and ignoring everything that Chaos and I have mentioned, then it's not really move tiering, it's your opinion of things.

Fuji Shusuke
October 15, 2011, 02:20 AM
If you were talking about the minor edits, I were adding the techs into the list because I didn't have them in. And also, you have a right to analyse the list and suggest an edit, in the early replies of this thread I accepted almost every suggestion. I do think about every comment.

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

I added Sanada's Black Aura in. It's in SS but where do you guys think it should go? Also about the Mirror Eyes thing, I believe Fuwa does have that ability but he was engulfed in Yukimura's Yips. So if sometime in the future he shows it, I'll list it.

Kaoz
October 15, 2011, 03:55 AM
For the little we know about BA, that seems like an acceptable place.

I'm making the same arguments for dropping In and Closed Eyes as last time btw.

Fuji Shusuke
October 20, 2011, 02:15 PM
Moved Closed Eyes and Shadow. Rank A has been ordered. There will probably be some errors.

---------- Post added October 16, 2011 at 12:32 AM ---------- Previous post was October 15, 2011 at 07:50 PM ----------

I put Closed Eyes down for Nanjirou as well. I kinda forgot about that.

---------- Post added October 20, 2011 at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was October 16, 2011 at 12:32 AM ----------

Added lots of translations, put into spoilers and starting to put in both first name and last name.

---------- Post added October 21, 2011 at 03:15 AM ---------- Previous post was October 20, 2011 at 10:01 PM ----------

I have tried to order B and C, please point out errors you may find.

Airgrimes
October 20, 2011, 04:12 PM
I thought I said this earlier when the question was asked but I realized just now my post didnt even send :/

When a player uses a technique in Muga, I dont think it should count.
I help run the PoT wikia which is small that Im trying to build up and we dont include it if the player is in Muga simply because he's not actually consciously using the move.

Echizen cant use Higuma Otoshi again UNLESS he is in Muga.
Whereas Atobe, Fuji and Yushi can do it like its normal.
Get what I mean?

But what youve done Fuji is completely awesome though :D

Fuji Shusuke
October 21, 2011, 01:19 PM
I thought I said this earlier when the question was asked but I realized just now my post didnt even send :/

When a player uses a technique in Muga, I dont think it should count.
I help run the PoT wikia which is small that Im trying to build up and we dont include it if the player is in Muga simply because he's not actually consciously using the move.

Echizen cant use Higuma Otoshi again UNLESS he is in Muga.
Whereas Atobe, Fuji and Yushi can do it like its normal.
Get what I mean?

But what youve done Fuji is completely awesome though :D

I think I'm going to keep them in the list but they will be put with *. Eg.
Triple Counter: Higuma Otoshi (Bear Drop) – Fuji Shusuke, Oshitari Yuushi, Kirihara Akaya*, Atobe Keigo, Kevin Smith*, Echizen Ryoma*

---------- Post added October 22, 2011 at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was October 21, 2011 at 03:43 PM ----------

Finished putting both first and last names in and marking Muga copied move. Was Echizen in Muga when he used Fuu?

FrostyMouse
October 21, 2011, 01:32 PM
Yes, Echizen uses Muga to copy Sanada's moves.

Fuji Shusuke
October 23, 2011, 08:17 AM
Is Gekokujou really a tech or a part of Enbu Tennis? Echizen used Muga to copy it, so it could be an individual tech. I interpret the move as approaching the net while keeping the Enbu stance (racquet pointed forward) and striking the ball quickly.

Kaoz
October 23, 2011, 08:56 AM
Is Gekokujou really a tech or a part of Enbu Tennis? Echizen used Muga to copy it, so it could be an individual tech. I interpret the move as approaching the net while keeping the Enbu stance (racquet pointed forward) and striking the ball quickly.

Technically, neither, it's just a motto. I'm actually not sure why they say Echizen copied it... might be a translation error or a mistake on Konomi's part, I wouldn't list it here personally.

Fuji Shusuke
October 23, 2011, 09:21 AM
Actually now that I think about it, I won't remove it because I still have to put down Echizen for using it, or should I put him for Enbu Tennis and remove it?

Airgrimes
October 23, 2011, 10:48 AM
Echizen was using 'Enbu Tennis'. And not Gekokujou. He says it because he is copying Hiyoshi accurately.
Hiyoshi says the phrase when using Enbu Tennis.

Echizen cant use any of the counters at will, so they arent really any of his techniques.
I THINK and im not too sure, but I think Kevin was in Muga when he used Higuma aswell?

Basically when Kabaji uses a technique it shouldnt be listed as his since he cant use it against a different opponent.
For example, he cant use Tezuka Zone against Kikumaru, Ibu or any other player.

Fuji Shusuke
October 23, 2011, 11:47 AM
OK, so I'll change unconscious into: The player cannot use the technique at will and certain requirements must be met to do so. So I'll change Kabaji and Nioh copied moves and Hyakuren double returned moves. What about Hitouji Yuuji, do his copy moves count?

Airgrimes
October 23, 2011, 06:12 PM
With that, Im not sure.
The PoT wikia isnt even developed enough to have reached him yet.

With Hitouji I'd say we can leave it as he cant use it until Konomi proves otherwise.
Unfortunately I havent seen the OVA, bu tin the OVA does he use a technique?

We have only seen him in ONE match which frustrates me with Konomi as he has created a lot of good characters and has left behind most of them.
So I'd say for now, leave it as *only copied, and not an actual move of his.

Fuji Shusuke
October 23, 2011, 06:51 PM
Yuuji does impressions of people which allows him to copy other people's play styles and techs. He has copied Tornado Snake and Dunk Smash. I'll put Impression down as a move in A rank? And I'll put the copy moves with * for now.

Also for his partner Koharu, should Shot Analysis & Counter be a move because he doesn't use Data Tennis, he just analyses a move and counters accordingly. All other data players can use it like Inui etc.

Airgrimes
October 24, 2011, 07:15 AM
Yeah totally man. Yuuji's ability would be a technique.
But I think its a slightly weaker version of Niou's illusions if you get what I mean.

Unfortunately we are yet to see Hitouji play Singles, so we dont fully know the extent of his abilities.
I hope Konomi makes all of his characters play Singles at least once, so we can fully understand each character.

With Konjiki, yeah, I think 'Shot Analysis...' would be right but I cant remember on whether or not the anime actually specified whether or not he uses Data Tennis or not, since I dont read PoT manga.

Fuji Shusuke
October 24, 2011, 07:53 AM
I'll put in Analysis & Counter in.

Kaoz
October 24, 2011, 10:47 AM
Konjiki uses Data Tennis. I don't remember whether it's specified in the manga, but it definately is in one of the Pair Puris.

Airgrimes
October 24, 2011, 12:00 PM
Thanks chaosmaster.
Ill put that on PoT wikia.

Fuji Shusuke
October 24, 2011, 01:21 PM
Airgrimes, I think I'll start contributing to the Wikia. I want to put all techniques up there.


We're getting a bit off-topic here, so if you want to continue talking about the wikia, please do so through PM.

Airgrimes
October 24, 2011, 05:13 PM
Thanks and sorry chaosmaster lol.

Is Tooyama's clone ability going to be added?
Since he used it against Echizen when Echizen was in Muga and used Tachibana's Abare Dama and Tooyama multiplied until he found the real ball.

He then uses it against Hakamada but to a larger scale.
I was wondering if that should be classed as a technique.

LetalHawk
October 24, 2011, 06:12 PM
Thanks and sorry chaosmaster lol.

Is Tooyama's clone ability going to be added?
Since he used it against Echizen when Echizen was in Muga and used Tachibana's Abare Dama and Tooyama multiplied until he found the real ball.

He then uses it against Hakamada but to a larger scale.

I was wondering if that should be classed as a technique.

I would put the kage bunshin in S rank, because Kintarou can return easily Wild Ball and Vanish when he uses it, and those two moves are very powerful, so I think it could be perfectly an S technique

Fuji Shusuke
November 09, 2011, 09:38 AM
I put it as Seal Step already. I don't think we need to list a large scale version. Although I'm not really sure.

---------- Post added November 09, 2011 at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was October 25, 2011 at 07:52 AM ----------

I went ahead and put Clone Technique in the list. *sigh*

Airgrimes
November 09, 2011, 01:30 PM
Haha, its just that, Seal Step showed just 1 clone.

Tooyama showed an army of Tooyama's. Unless Kikumaru says he can do that, then I dont really view them as the same technique.

Kaoz
November 09, 2011, 02:07 PM
Haha, its just that, Seal Step showed just 1 clone.

If you want to get technical about it, the Sealed Step was shown on various levels. First there was the original version which had two Kikumaru's (and I believe this is the one Echizen copied against Atobe, going off memory though), then he added another one at the end of the Rokkaku match.

Finally there's One Man Doubles, which is basically an even higher level of Sealed Step.

Airgrimes
November 09, 2011, 03:16 PM
Thats what Im talking about. And Not what Echizen did, I mean a clone that can take swings at the ball.

Fuji Shusuke
November 28, 2011, 12:05 PM
Put in Five Ball Return.

LetalHawk
November 28, 2011, 02:42 PM
Five ball Return is not a technique, is an ability to hit multiple balls at once, but you can't apply it into a real match, so it's a skill, not a technique

Airgrimes
November 28, 2011, 05:01 PM
It is a technique. It varies.
Kikumaru's clones being able to take swings and rally was a techniqe.

Tooyama returning Abare Dama from Echizen in Muga had Tooyama making clones with each of them hitting the ball.

he did it again against Hakamada. Im not too sure if we can say its just technique lol.
Think about it. It cant be just speed anymore. Since in that manga pg I counted over 12 clones then I stopped counting.

LetalHawk
November 28, 2011, 06:40 PM
It is not the same, being able to hit five balls at the same time has nothing to do with the clone technique, Tokugawa and Echizen can hit 10 balls without making clones, all by themselves, that's not something everybody can do.

Airgrimes
November 29, 2011, 01:18 PM
Tokugawa and Echizen were shown to move around to each ball swiftly.

Tooyama was shown MASS MULTIPLYING. Im not sure how you compare Akutsu, Sanada, Tokugawa, Oni, Tooyama and Echizen hitting 5 balls at once to mass multiplying lol.

Since what Tooyama did when hitting 5 balls was different to what he did when he used Kage Bunshin.

LetalHawk
November 29, 2011, 01:19 PM
but don't think he can hit more than 10 balls with the clone technique, although it's a useful move to counter strong techniques

Airgrimes
November 29, 2011, 04:52 PM
Nevermind that, Its the fact that he was in all over the court at once.

Tokugawa cant do that. He cant be in every place of the court at once.

I think the Clone technique should be called that coz it lets Tooyama be in so many places at once.

Kaoz
November 30, 2011, 01:24 AM
I think the technique Kintarou used is effectively the same as Kikumaru's Sealed Step, just at a higher level. Those steps allow for more court coverage, but the player isn't really in all those places at once as far as I understand. In other words, they wouldn't be able to hit multiple shots simultaniously.
The X shots at once on the other hand means they hit the balls at the exact same time.

Airgrimes
November 30, 2011, 11:47 AM
Yeah not like the Tokugawa and Oni thing.

But its just like Kikumaru's at a higher scale which is why Im saying it probably should be a listed technique.

LetalHawk
December 01, 2011, 06:32 AM
Well no problem, I think it could be an S technique because it's way better than Seal Step

Fuji Shusuke
December 04, 2011, 08:47 PM
So its Clone Technique > Five Ball Return > Seal Step. I'll move the Five Ball Return.

---------- Post added December 05, 2011 at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was December 02, 2011 at 12:10 AM ----------

I will put on Byoudouin's serve when I can read a translation.

Airgrimes
December 05, 2011, 12:28 PM
erm... Byoudouin's serve cant be tiered yet.
Its a world above whats appeared in the series so far. Wait til he uses it in a match.
Unless you are cool with a tennis serve that cracks thick walls lol.

Fuji Shusuke
December 05, 2011, 12:42 PM
How about Zero-shiki Serve > Byoudouin's Serve > Yips? Because, in my opinion, ZSS is the highest level of serve.

Airgrimes
December 05, 2011, 12:54 PM
I think so too, However only Ryoga has returned Byoudouin's serve so far.
Also, Byoudouin's serve looked quite relaxed. Not like it was all he had. Whereas ZS serve strains Tezuka's arm.

And ZSS is in the anime. But in the manga, I heard Konomi had Sanada insanely return the serve ZS serve.

LetalHawk
December 05, 2011, 02:26 PM
he returned it with KaRinRai, that was a big burden to his legs.
The best serve is of course ZSS, which surpasses Byodouin's.
Man, Tezuka is the strongest, he could beast the crap out of a top 10, I want him back

Airgrimes
December 05, 2011, 03:10 PM
he returned it with KaRinRai, that was a big burden to his legs.
The best serve is of course ZSS, which surpasses Byodouin's.
Man, Tezuka is the strongest, he could beast the crap out of a top 10, I want him back

But ZSS puts strain on the arm so it isnt that great.

-Ken-
December 05, 2011, 06:30 PM
I know that Sanada hit ZSS back, but I'm not sure about the rules behind it at all. I thought the ball have to bounced first. Or are you allow to hit the ball anytime after it hit the ground? I guess I just don't know tennis rule enough.

Fuji Shusuke
December 05, 2011, 09:14 PM
ZSS should be undefeatable. The defying of physics in PoT makes the impossible possible right?

-Ken-
December 08, 2011, 04:54 AM
I don't mean whether or not it's physically possible. I just want to know if it's within the tennis rule to hit the ball before it rise from the ground in a serve ;)

My guess is that it is allow. It make me think along the line of the Gatekeeper which slides the ball but so skillfully that the ball doesn't leave the racquet.

---------- Post added December 08, 2011 at 04:54 AM ---------- Previous post was December 05, 2011 at 10:54 PM ----------

Why is Bakyuun and Vanish so low?

Vanish is a move that give after-hell-training Kintarou a hard time. That means it's one sick move.

Bakyuun is a ball that blow a hole through your racquet. It's most similar to Rai. Of course, it's not AS powerful as Rai, since it doesn't have a random direction or the movement part. Still, it blow a hole through the racquet. It is beaten by Black Jack Knife, which is clearly a very powerful techniques in its own right owned by one of the most powerful highschooler.

Fuji Shusuke
December 08, 2011, 09:23 AM
If you look at the moves above Vanish and Bakyuun, they seem more higher level.

-Ken-
December 08, 2011, 12:53 PM
Vanish seem to pack A LOT more power than Kamikakushi to me.

There's no direct direction to Abara Dama and Kamikakushi. But the 3rd court high schooler that fight those two techniques to 3-3 evenly got stomped most likely 6-0 by 1st stringer.

Now, Moujuu no Synchro. 3rd court high schooler can still beat it. I'm thinking most likely they are at 5-3 when it activated, and the game end at 7-6, so score moved 2-4. And those guys got stomped b by 1st stringer.

Doukoku e no Gigue doesn't actually appear, but Shitsui e no Fugue got beaten by Irie, whom have trouble with number 20 of the 1st stringer. Yes, he got serious later. But I feel it's different level of seriousness than he did when he did it with Atobe. I doubt Shitsui e no Fugue is higher than Vanish/Bakyuun.

Samurai Drive is most likely a lot harder to deal than Rai. I have not idea how it's doing so low. It's return perfectly only by Yukimura, who return both to the same place. It's a REALLY high level technique. Most likely on SS level. Why on earth is it even lower than Monjuu no Aura?

Kintarou=Best player on the team. =better than Chitose. Pre-timeskip, confirmed by Shiraishi himself. Moujuu no Aura fought evenly with Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami. Kintarou after time-skip got in trouble in Vanish. Vanish should be higher than Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami at least.

Also, like I said before Bakyuu power is comparable to Rai, although a bit less powerful. I think you should try to protect those other techniques position on how they might be comparable to a techniques a little less powerful than Rai because I pretty much present my argument already.

Airgrimes
December 08, 2011, 01:46 PM
Vanish seem to pack A LOT more power than Kamikakushi to me.

There's no direct direction to Abara Dama and Kamikakushi. But the 3rd court high schooler that fight those two techniques to 3-3 evenly got stomped most likely 6-0 by 1st stringer.

At 3-3 was when Chitose and Tachibana revealed Abare Dama and Kamikushi.



Now, Moujuu no Synchro. 3rd court high schooler can still beat it. I'm thinking most likely they are at 5-3 when it activated, and the game end at 7-6, so score moved 2-4. And those guys got stomped b by 1st stringer.
Remember when Synchro is first activated, it isnt as strong as when activated later. For example Oishi & Kikumaru.
After the 1st time, they beasted Jackal/Marui in 5 straight games after activation who would probably defeat any 3rd Court HSer team.



Doukoku e no Gigue doesn't actually appear, but Shitsui e no Fugue got beaten by Irie, whom have trouble with number 20 of the 1st stringer. Yes, he got serious later. But I feel it's different level of seriousness than he did when he did it with Atobe. I doubt Shitsui e no Fugue is higher than Vanish/Bakyuun.
Irie had no trouble with Akiba. He was merely acting. He only got serious when Akiba dissed his acting.
Only one of the Gigue's was stopped by Irie. The other one does appear.
I think the one that appeared was Fugue towards Despair.



Samurai Drive is most likely a lot harder to deal than Rai. I have not idea how it's doing so low. It's return perfectly only by Yukimura, who return both to the same place. It's a REALLY high level technique. Most likely on SS level. Why on earth is it even lower than Monjuu no Aura?
Good point there. But then again, quite a few guys can now hit 5 balls at once. Making what made this a difficult shot, a not so difficult shot if you get what I mean.



Kintarou=Best player on the team. =better than Chitose. Pre-timeskip, confirmed by Shiraishi himself. Moujuu no Aura fought evenly with Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami. Kintarou after time-skip got in trouble in Vanish. Vanish should be higher than Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami at least.

I agree there too. Vanish was the only reason Hakamada became a 1st Stringer so if that one technique dragged him up there it is probably a very strong technique.



Also, like I said before Bakyuu power is comparable to Rai, although a bit less powerful. I think you should try to protect those other techniques position on how they might be comparable to a techniques a little less powerful than Rai because I pretty much present my argument already.

Bakyuun is probably more comparable to Laserbeam. Its a shot that doesnt seem to hard, but takes out strings. I wouldnt put it where Rai is, since Rai involves teleportation and all.

-Ken-
December 08, 2011, 03:26 PM
At 3-3 was when Chitose and Tachibana revealed Abare Dama and Kamikushi.

I think it's pretty to be shown that the 3rd court are equal to Tachibana/Chitose, which Konomi pretty much shown by the statement here.

http://www.mangareader.net/343-58611-4/new-prince-of-tennis/chapter-38.html

It's just hard to show it completely when… well… the match is cut REALLY short.


Remember when Synchro is first activated, it isnt as strong as when activated later. For example Oishi & Kikumaru.
After the 1st time, they beasted Jackal/Marui in 5 straight games after activation who would probably defeat any 3rd Court HSer team.

Can you restated this? I'm sorry. I really confused to with this means. Not trying to be rude or anything.


Irie had no trouble with Akiba. He was merely acting. He only got serious when Akiba dissed his acting.
Only one of the Gigue's was stopped by Irie. The other one does appear.
I think the one that appeared was Fugue towards Despair.

The gigue that was stopped by Irie was the more powerful "evolved" one.

You also don't know how "serious" Irie was when he's fighting with Akiba compare to how "serious" Irie was when he's fighting Akiba either. However, since he say "Just kidding" and answer the Doukoku e no Gigue and got beaten by number 20 after that. I would assume that number 20 can beat Doukoku e no Gigue, which most likely make Vanish a fair bit more powerful. I'm aware that Irie is acting when losing to number 20, but there's no telling how "serious" the actor is with both opponents.


Good point there. But then again, quite a few guys can now hit 5 balls at once. Making what made this a difficult shot, a not so difficult shot if you get what I mean.

5 ball =/= 2 half ball on opposite side of the court. The 2 half ball land on the opposite side, making it A LOT harder than fast hand moving around you. Also, it's "half" of a ball. That's considerably harder than a ball, trust me.


I agree there too. Vanish was the only reason Hakamada became a 1st Stringer so if that one technique dragged him up there it is probably a very strong technique.

Good to see you agree :)


Bakyuun is probably more comparable to Laserbeam. Its a shot that doesnt seem to hard, but takes out strings. I wouldnt put it where Rai is, since Rai involves teleportation and all.

I already stated in the last post that it's weaker than Rai. But taking out string is pretty good of a technique, and shouldn't be underestimate. It's like an laserbeam+, I guess.

Airgrimes
December 08, 2011, 04:40 PM
I think it's pretty to be shown that the 3rd court are equal to Tachibana/Chitose, which Konomi pretty much shown by the statement here.

http://www.mangareader.net/343-58611-4/new-prince-of-tennis/chapter-38.html

It's just hard to show it completely when… well… the match is cut REALLY short.
Konomi underlined how they hadnt paired up for over a year.
Whereas Washio and Suzuki had been training with each other for ages. As shown when you see 3rd Court just defeating 4th Court prior to the Team Shuffle.




Can you restated this? I'm sorry. I really confused to with this means. Not trying to be rude or anything.
I thought you were implying that slightly putting down Mojuu no Synchro.
And was saying that the next time they use it, it is likely that it will be more powerful. Since Remember when Synchro is first activated, it isnt as strong as when activated later. For example Oishi & Kikumaru. They use it first against Shishido/Ootori.
After the 1st time, they beasted Jackal/Marui in 5 straight games after activation who would probably defeat any 3rd Court HSer team. They seemed more fluid against Jackal/Marui pair.




The gigue that was stopped by Irie was the more powerful "evolved" one.

You also don't know how "serious" Irie was when he's fighting with Akiba compare to how "serious" Irie was when he's fighting Akiba either. However, since he say "Just kidding" and answer the Doukoku e no Gigue and got beaten by number 20 after that. I would assume that number 20 can beat Doukoku e no Gigue, which most likely make Vanish a fair bit more powerful. I'm aware that Irie is acting when losing to number 20, but there's no telling how "serious" the actor is with both opponents.

I think its clear that Irie was totally unserious with Akiba. The fact that he is No.20, and the MSers defeated No.s 11-19, Konomi had Irie get serious and annihalate him on purpose. Just to make sure that Atobe wasnt de-valued.
Irie was just playing with Akiba. I dont see how Akiba could overcome World of Ice.




5 ball =/= 2 half ball on opposite side of the court. The 2 half ball land on the opposite side, making it A LOT harder than fast hand moving around you. Also, it's "half" of a ball. That's considerably harder than a ball, trust me.
I hope your not using real-life logic here lol.
Understand that with this series you have to argue with PoT logic only. Although hitting a Samurai Drive seems harder, with more players hitting several balls at once, it makes this technique seem slightly less powerful. Although I agree that it should be higher.

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 07:07 AM
So just to be sure, it is agreed to move Vanish and Bakyuun higher? Samurai Drive cannot be moved any higher because Clone Technique is right there waiting.

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

I'm going to add Yukimura's Racquet Butt Return to the list. In theory, it can defeat a lot of the major power moves. Black Jack Knife, Rai, Bakyuun, 108th Style Hadoukyuu (perhaps). So I was thinking of putting it in SS. But it does seem way too simple to be classified that high.

Also where should I put Byoudouin's serve. (Penetrating Serve? Wall Shattering Serve, Wall Cracking Serve? Serve of Destruction? Gimme some names too.)

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 09:03 AM
Butt return is just a return, it can't be an SS technique.

If you put it on the list, please put Byodouin's Kamehameha, please xd

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 09:52 AM
So just to be sure, it is agreed to move Vanish and Bakyuun higher? Samurai Drive cannot be moved any higher because Clone Technique is right there waiting.

I'm going to add Yukimura's Racquet Butt Return to the list. In theory, it can defeat a lot of the major power moves. Black Jack Knife, Rai, Bakyuun, 108th Style Hadoukyuu (perhaps). So I was thinking of putting it in SS. But it does seem way too simple to be classified that high.

Also where should I put Byoudouin's serve. (Penetrating Serve? Wall Shattering Serve, Wall Cracking Serve? Serve of Destruction? Gimme some names too.)
I dont think Yukimura's return of Lightning needs to be a technique. I think Konomi was just underlining that Power is as useless as any other technique against Yukimura. And that you really do need an aura to defeat him as shown by Sanada and Ryoma.


Butt return is just a return, it can't be an SS technique.

If you put it on the list, please put Byodouin's Kamehameha, please xd

If it WAS a technique, then it absolutely positively be an SS technique lol.
And Byoudouin's serve will be named soon enough, it shouldnt be tiered just yet. Since Ryoga returned it like it was a standard serve.


Btw, I think Jack Knife should be in Rank B and not C.
Sicne it took out Yushi's strings, and it let Momoshiro defeat the hyped up (disappointment) Sengoku.


And Hahaha you forgot Mizuki Hajime in Data Tennis users. I totally understand though.

You also forgot Nakagauchi Sotomichi with the Cord Ball and since Fuji did it against Niou with his eyes closed, does it count that he can use Cord Ball too?

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 11:20 AM
Do you want to call it "Forced Cord Ball" because you can cord ball by accident and naming it this way makes it more specific. I'll try to move Jack Knife up and I'll put Mizuki in for Data Tennis, although his data fails (against Fuji lol). Kentarou's cord ball is known as "Miracle Cord Ball" I think or should I rename it to "Forced Cord Ball" or whatever?

BTW, what do you think of Black Hack Knife hehe?

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 11:33 AM
BTW, what do you think of Black Hack Knife hehe?
Hahaha like what you done there! So far thats exactly what its been since nobody can seem to return it.

I think just 'Cord Ball' is fine. If a player can use Cord Ball as a listed technique. (Nakagauchi, Aoi and Fuji).
Remember Irie saying ''Unusual for you to use the Cord Ball'' to Nakagauchi like it was his actual technique.

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 12:38 PM
Black Jack will be defeated soon, if Oni faces Duke, then the BJK won't work. Maybe Watanabe is the man who extended the limits of the Hadoukyuus (and can hit up to 200th) lolol

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 02:46 PM
Black Jack will be defeated soon, if Oni faces Duke, then the BJK won't work. Maybe Watanabe is the man who extended the limits of the Hadoukyuus (and can hit up to 200th) lolol

Hahaha nah, Hadoukyu seems to be middle schoolers only. Since we just had Date use his Springtime of Danki when Konomi could have had hi do Hadoukyu's.
I hope BJK doesnt stay hack.

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 03:09 PM
Don't worry, it will be defeated. Is a move that lots of players can return (Echizen, Yukimura, Sanada...)

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 04:39 PM
Quick Question. What would you cal Data Tennis, Perfect Tennis, Acrobatic Play and Power Play? Types of Tennis? Styles of Tennis? Im not sure of a good definition of these things, since Tennis Styles are Serve & Volley, Counterpuncher and All-Rounder etc.

Im not sure what you would call Data Tennis, Power Play, Acrobatic Play, Perfect Tennis etc.

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 08:14 PM
You could call them Sub-styles.

Airgrimes
December 10, 2011, 05:53 AM
You could call them Sub-styles.

Awesomeness. Thanks.
I also think Akutagawa Jirou's Magic Volley should be lifted no?
It ended Yuuta 6-1, and it was the reason he was hyped up.

Also not even Kabaji can copy it right. So it might mean that when Niou becomes Jirou he cant use Magic Volley. I think the move is worth a lot more.

Fuji Shusuke
December 10, 2011, 07:22 AM
BTW I kinda wanna keep it called "Forced Cord Ball" because I find just calling it Cord Ball not specific enough.

Airgrimes
December 10, 2011, 11:01 AM
BTW I kinda wanna keep it called "Forced Cord Ball" because I find just calling it Cord Ball not specific enough.

I agree, but lift Magic Volley.

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

And also, when did Yukimura use Cord Ball?

Fuji Shusuke
December 10, 2011, 12:01 PM
Yukimura used it to (try to) counter Ryoma's Hyakuren Jitoku no Bigaeshi. Also moving Magic Volley up is kinda difficult so what do you think about it's new position, should it go even higher?

LetalHawk
December 10, 2011, 01:22 PM
But that cord ball Yukimura hit was just a normal return, it shouldn't be added, I think it was luck, he couldn't match Ryoma until he used yips. He was inferior when Ryoma was using both Hyakuren and Saiki.

Fuji Shusuke
December 10, 2011, 01:32 PM
Ok, then I'll remove Yukimura.

Airgrimes
December 10, 2011, 02:47 PM
But that cord ball Yukimura hit was just a normal return, it shouldn't be added, I think it was luck, he couldn't match Ryoma until he used yips. He was inferior when Ryoma was using both Hyakuren and Saiki.

He couldnt match Ryoma?
He kept him under a lock prior to the yips. Yips happens when Yukimura comfortably returns practically everything his opponent has.
I think it was Ryoma who couldnt match Yukimura until TnK.

---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

I personally feel Magic Volley is better than Twist Spin Shot and Cord Ball.
For cordball its coz he took out Yuuta who had Twist Spin Shot.
Btw, which match did Kirihara use Twist Spin Shot?

Kaoz
December 10, 2011, 04:51 PM
He couldnt match Ryoma?
He kept him under a lock prior to the yips. Yips happens when Yukimura comfortably returns practically everything his opponent has.
I think it was Ryoma who couldnt match Yukimura until TnK.

Ryoma took 3 points in a row with just Hyakuren.


Btw, which match did Kirihara use Twist Spin Shot?

Never and I've told you this before.

Airgrimes
December 10, 2011, 06:03 PM
Ryoma took 3 points in a row with just Hyakuren.

Man, the anime is a little different... Did Yukimura then handle Hyakku Ren Jitoku afterwards? If he did handle it before the end of that game, then he more than matched Ryoma. It proves my point that he handled him.



Never and I've told you this before.
Cool.

And wrong. I asked about Dunk Smash.

LetalHawk
December 11, 2011, 06:46 AM
Man, the anime is a little different... Did Yukimura then handle Hyakku Ren Jitoku afterwards? If he did handle it before the end of that game, then he more than matched Ryoma. It proves my point that he handled him.


Cool.

And wrong. I asked about Dunk Smash.

Airgrimes, I was just saying that until Yukimura used yips, he was being defeated.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c373/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c374/6.html

Look how, before activating yips, Yukimura was being totally overwhelmed, if Yukimura didn't have the yips ability, he probably would have lost to Ryoma due to Saiki and Hyakuren.

Airgrimes
December 11, 2011, 07:41 AM
Wait your right. Thanks for the links LetalHawk.

LetalHawk
December 11, 2011, 07:47 AM
You're welcome

Airgrimes
December 11, 2011, 08:03 AM
I personally feel Kabaji's Simple Minded Absorption needs to be lowered.

I still feel that when it comes to the Copy guys, Niou is the best. Then perhaps Kabaji or Hitouji and Muga.
Although Hitouji hasnt had enough screentime his Impression technique seemed fantastic but due to lack of screentime to see the technique I guess he is bottom.

Fuji Shusuke
December 11, 2011, 10:37 AM
I see your point Airgrimes but frankly I'm not sure. Simple Minded works instantaneously, meaning if a player hit a particular shot, Kabaji can use the same shot as a return. Niou shapeshifts and copies a person's play style allowing for a very accurate illusion but requires preparation to use. So basically, what is better? Instant imitation or Prepared precision? (I tried to match the first letters lol)

Airgrimes
December 11, 2011, 11:21 AM
I see your point Airgrimes but frankly I'm not sure. Simple Minded works instantaneously, meaning if a player hit a particular shot, Kabaji can use the same shot as a return. Niou shapeshifts and copies a person's play style allowing for a very accurate illusion but requires preparation to use. So basically, what is better? Instant imitation or Prepared precision? (I tried to match the first letters lol)

Lol, I noticed the alliteration. Im not sure what I would want. But although it took preparation for Tezuka, it seemed instantaneous when he became Mutsu, Shiraishi and Kikumaru. So I think Niou has evolved his Illusion further to the point it not only instantaneous, but he can become any school player. I kind of feel that Niou's is better.
(Im glad so far Konomi has limited him to school players. Since if he could go beyond that he could just switch between Djokovic, Nadal, Federer and Murray lol).

Also, Kabaji has been lowered by Konomi. He lacks experience, shown against Tezuka.
And that if his body doesnt match the person he is copying then he stands little chance.
Shown against Jiro (his wrists) and Date (His arm power).

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

Another question.

What would you call Synchro? Either a 'State'? or an 'Aura'?

Which of the two sound more appriopriate?

LetalHawk
December 11, 2011, 12:08 PM
Synchro is an state, the two players begin to play like if they were one unconciously, until they can go willingly into it.

I reckon Niou's ability is amazing, but Kabaji's Simple Minded isn't near as good. Niou could become Date if he watches him and do Danji No Haru. Like you said, Kabaji's limited by his physical abilities.

Fuji Shusuke
December 11, 2011, 12:23 PM
Do you reckon Kabaji can copy Zero Shiki Serve?

Kaoz
December 11, 2011, 12:46 PM
I reckon Niou's ability is amazing, but Kabaji's Simple Minded isn't near as good. Niou could become Date if he watches him and do Danji No Haru. Like you said, Kabaji's limited by his physical abilities.

I'm 99% sure that Niou is also limited by his own abilities, and I doubt that he could use Danji no Haru on the same level as Date himself... I would guess it'd be even weaker than Kabaji's actually.


Do you reckon Kabaji can copy Zero Shiki Serve?

It took him what... 5 games... to copy Hyakuren? Given that ZSS seems to be an even more complex move, I doubt he could copy it within one set.

LetalHawk
December 11, 2011, 12:49 PM
Then the only way that Danji no Haru would be exactly the same is with Muga.

Fuji Shusuke
December 11, 2011, 12:57 PM
Say bye bye to your stamina then. If in Muga, even Echizen would probably use up 70% of his stamina when using Danji no Haru.

---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

Also, I don't think I can move Simple Minded Absorption down. I can only move Shapeshifting Illusion up.

Kaoz
December 11, 2011, 01:04 PM
Then the only way that Danji no Haru would be exactly the same is with Muga.

From what Date said, I would assume that the power of Danji no Haru depends on the user's power... so basically, only someone whose power is at least on the same level as Date could potentially use it on the same level.

LetalHawk
December 11, 2011, 01:08 PM
From what Date said, I would assume that the power of Danji no Haru depends on the user's power... so basically, only someone whose power is at least on the same level as Date could potentially use it on the same level.

Or Echizen using Hyakuren - Double Return, that way, the stamina effect isn't a matter anymore.

Airgrimes
December 11, 2011, 02:57 PM
I'm 99% sure that Niou is also limited by his own abilities, and I doubt that he could use Danji no Haru on the same level as Date himself... I would guess it'd be even weaker than Kabaji's actually.
Based on?

He copied Tezuka's Phantom, Zone, physique to break the counters and Muga doors.
Beside how long it took him to become and complete these moves, Look at where he instantly became Shiraishi.
And then his Mountain training which let him become Mutsu and Kikumaru.

The fact he can become Kikumaru instantly and use his Acrobatics show that chances are he is less limited than Kabaji. I dont see Kabaji doing acrobatics like Mukahi and Kikumaru hahaha.

I dont see Kabaji copying ZSS. He is yet to even copy a serve in the series.




It took him what... 5 games... to copy Hyakuren? Given that ZSS seems to be an even more complex move, I doubt he could copy it within one set.[/QUOTE]

Kaoz
December 11, 2011, 08:21 PM
Based on?

It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

LetalHawk
December 12, 2011, 07:40 AM
It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

The perfect way to copy is Muga, Illusion can't copy certain moves depending on the user's physical abilities. I'm pretty sure that Echizen could copy ZZS after seeing it many many times. Otherwise, I see Niou above Kabaji, he perfectly copied Tezuka (only missed ZZS), Kabaji took 5 games to copy Hyakuren, Niou took 4, and he also copies Phantom and Saiki without any problem.

He can become any player he wants, how can Kabaji surpass that?. Niou >> Kabaji.

Fuji Shusuke
December 12, 2011, 08:14 AM
Moved Shapeshifting Illusion up.

Sai_the_Shaman
December 12, 2011, 12:03 PM
Niou's Illusion and Kabaji's Super Copy (Yes, that's what the Databook calls it) are both somewhat hard to decipher since they can seemingly copy the different aura's too.

I'd wager that Niou's Illusion isn't a real copy of the aura, but some sort of trick that makes the opponent's/partner think that he is really doing it when he in fact is not. In fact, though it wasn't shown in the original monthly release in SQ, Niou's copy of Kikumaru in recent chapters had an otherworldy glow/overlay to it to make it look less physically there (it was shown in the actual volume release). To me, that at least tells me it's all smoke and mirrors to an extent.

(As to why Synchro worked, I'm thinking of it like Zabuza's initial assessment of Sharingan way back in the beginning of Naruto. It works because Niou has somehow hypnotized his opponent into synchronizing with him).

This would explain why Yagyuu was able to break through all of Niou's tricks. he knows the secret to all of them from having been his partner for so long. I liken it to Niou being a magician, but Yagyuu already knowing the secret to all his 'magic'. By knowing the secret to it, there is no more 'magic' to it. Which is why Niou didn't use Illusion on Yagyuu and had to resort to smaller actually physical tricks (like the blood).


As for Kabaji's Super Copy, I think he's actually doing the real move, he just simply cannot hold on to it. In the match versus Danji and Ban, Ban used a phrase (I believe it was Tsukeyaiba) which is often used to describe how a student crams for a test so that he retains it for just long enough to pass the test, but forgets it the next day. Such can be said of Kabaji's Super Copy. Because of his simple and child like mind, he can imitate just about anything (as long as he has the natual skill to do it, so he can't copy things like Magic Volley since he lacks Jirou's same super flexible wrists) with his ability to observe even the smallest details. However, he can only do so while actually seeing it done.

There was an article in Vol. 5 of Pair Puri I took the time to translate regarding the intricacies of Muga no Kyouchi. It includes Niou and Kabaji in the list of users, however, if you scroll to the bottom, there is an interesting blurb regarding the debate on if these are really considered the attainment of Muga: http://translations.shamannet.com/?p=296

Kaoz
December 12, 2011, 12:27 PM
Regarding Illusion, here's something I wrote up a little over a year ago...


Technique Analysis - Illusion (Niou)

1) Gathering Data
2) Copying Techniques
3) Limitations
4) Others


1) Gathering Data

This step can be divided into the pre match phase and the match itself:

-Pre-Match:
In this phase, Niou researches the team he will face and chooses a number of persons he considers strong against the members of that team. After deciding, he studies the techniques, playstyle and habits of the players he intends to copy.

-In-Match:
During the first few games of the match itself, Niou observes the opponent he is actually playing. He is most likely analyzing that player's specific habits and mind set to figure out who he should copy and how the techniques of that player apply to his opponent.


2) Copying Techniques

It has to be noted that Niou cannot use the techniques he copies to their full potential. For example, when using Tezuka Zone, he does not know which spin he has to put on the ball to guruantee it's drawn towards him (like Tezuka), but rather uses the knowledge of the opponent that he gained in the previous step to predict the spin needed.


3) Limitations

Regarding the Illusion itself, Niou can basically pretend to be anyone and is most likely only limited to the size and shape of the person he wants to become. Handedness could be mentioned, but Niou is able to play with his right hand as well, even if it's unknown whether it's as strong as his left. There are a few more limitations to what techniques he can copy though. For once, Niou needs the physical capabilities to copy that technique, furthermore he needs a basic understanding on how they are performed. The second point is probably less important the more time he has to prepare.

A few examples:

-Tezuka Zone
Tezuka Zone has been used since Kanto, so Niou had a lot of time to research it. He cannot use it the same way Tezuka can though and has to rely on his data to fix that flaw.

-Tezuka Phantom:
Tezuka Phantom has a principle similiar to Tezuka Zone, so even though it was shown only a short time before Niou's own match, he could use his understanding of the Zone to figure out Phantom's mechanics. Again, he is limited when using it.

Another point to note is, that Niou cannot use the same technique over an extended period of time, as the opponent is more likely to become aware of it's flaws, which would break the Illusion.


4) Others

Illusion is just that, an illusion. That means that it is highly dependant on the opponent's mental state and can be broken when the opponent overcomes the mental barrier. The time needed to break the illusion is also influenced by how well Niou can copy a player.


It's a bit old and I haven't updated it, so the Mutsu match for example isn't included, but that's basically how I think it works.

I should probably add some of the things Sai mentioned at some point...

Fuji Shusuke
December 12, 2011, 12:34 PM
Super Copy eh? Well I think that's a failure. I'm sticking with Simple Minded Absorption. Also, I call it Shapeshifting Illusion because there is Kevin's Illusion from the anime (fail I know). So I guess I can drop the "shapeshifting" and give Kevin's one Ball Cloning Illusion or something along those lines.

Sai_the_Shaman
December 12, 2011, 12:38 PM
I would just say Illusion Vs. Illusion Shot.

Fuji Shusuke
December 12, 2011, 12:43 PM
I'll do that Sai.

Airgrimes
December 12, 2011, 01:02 PM
It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

That doesnt answer the question regardless.
It doesnt mean it makes Niou more limited. Kabaji has shown to also be limited.
Niou becoming Tezuka is far more useful than Kabaji just copying it.

Niou VS Kaido.
Kabaji VS Kaido. Kabaji has good stamina. Kaido has beast stamina. Thats it.

Niou VS Kaido. Niou takes 4 games to become Tezuka. Game Set Niou.



Super Copy eh? Well I think that's a failure. I'm sticking with Simple Minded Absorption. Also, I call it Shapeshifting Illusion because there is Kevin's Illusion from the anime (fail I know). So I guess I can drop the "shapeshifting" and give Kevin's one Ball Cloning Illusion or something along those lines.

Hahaha if its in the Databook then its offically Super Copy lol.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------


The perfect way to copy is Muga, Illusion can't copy certain moves depending on the user's physical abilities. I'm pretty sure that Echizen could copy ZZS after seeing it many many times. Otherwise, I see Niou above Kabaji, he perfectly copied Tezuka (only missed ZZS), Kabaji took 5 games to copy Hyakuren, Niou took 4, and he also copies Phantom and Saiki without any problem.

He can become any player he wants, how can Kabaji surpass that?. Niou >> Kabaji.

A perfect example that if anything, Niou is the one that is less limited than Kabaji and that if Niou became Date, his Danji no Haru would be stronger.

Kaoz
December 12, 2011, 01:20 PM
A perfect example that if anything, Niou is the one that is less limited than Kabaji and that if Niou became Date, his Danji no Haru would be stronger.

Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

Airgrimes
December 12, 2011, 01:41 PM
Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

I doubt he has Kikumaru's flexibility or Tezuka's Technique and Physique. I doubt he has Shiraishi's technique too.
But he performed them all perfectly. Except Tezuka w/out ZSS.
Kikumaru's ability to perform Acrobatics and Tezuka's left arm to do Doubled Return are perfect examples.

Unless you see Kabaji using Acrobatic Play against Kikumaru or Mukahi. Which I doubt would be to the standard Niou would perform it at.

LetalHawk
December 12, 2011, 01:42 PM
Kabaji couldn't replicate Danji no Haru's power. Date explained that it was because Kabaji lacked the physical strength. Kabaji is physically stronger than Niou.
Following that, if Niou used Danji no Haru, because it's effectiveness relies on the user's own power, Niou's copy would be less powerful than Kabaji's and far less powerful than Date's original.

This ties into the point I was trying to make with that question.
Even if Niou were to "become" Date, his Danji no Haru would be weaker since he lacks Date's power.

Then we can assume that if your physical abilities aren't strong enough, now matter how much you try, you can't do the real thing.

And again, regardless of that, Hyakuren would be the best thing to copy. I mean, imagine a match with Echizen vs Date, Date uses Danji No Haru and somehow Echizen survives. Ok, then he activates Hyakuren and returns it doubled, wouldn't that work? Also, the stamina isn't a matter, because the Hyakuren lessens greatly the stamina loss.

Airgrimes
December 12, 2011, 01:46 PM
Then we can assume that if your physical abilities aren't strong enough, now matter how much you try, you can't do the real thing.

And again, regardless of that, Hyakuren would be the best thing to copy. I mean, imagine a match with Echizen vs Date, Date uses Danji No Haru and somehow Echizen survives. Ok, then he activates Hyakuren and returns it doubled, wouldn't that work? Also, the stamina isn't a matter, because the Hyakuren lessens greatly the stamina loss.

Hyakuren only works with shots. End of. Niou and Kabaji can replicate even Play Styles and Auras. Hyakku Ren is strictly shots.

Kaoz
December 12, 2011, 02:01 PM
I doubt he has Kikumaru's flexibility or Tezuka's Technique and Physique. I doubt he has Shiraishi's technique too.
But he performed them all perfectly. Except Tezuka w/out ZSS.
Kikumaru's ability to perform Acrobatics and Tezuka's left arm to do Doubled Return are perfect examples.

1. He never uses Acrobatic Play.
2. It's not hard to return a weak shot like Fuji's with double power and as long as you have good technique the spin should be doable too.
3. How do you want to know that his technique is worse than Tezuka's or Shiraishi's?


Unless you see Kabaji using Acrobatic Play against Kikumaru or Mukahi. Which I doubt would be to the standard Niou would perform it at.

Kabaji hasn't shown to be able to use Acrobatic Play. Neither has Niou.


Then we can assume that if your physical abilities aren't strong enough, now matter how much you try, you can't do the real thing.

That's what they implied.

Airgrimes
December 12, 2011, 03:55 PM
It's pretty late, so I'll keep this short...

Why do you think his technique is called Illusion? Because it's the real thing?

And honestly you could just say why do you think his technique is called Super Copy? Because it's the real thing?

Yeah we know Niou's is just an Illusion and Kabaji's is a copy. Neither match the real thing.



3. How do you want to know that his technique is worse than Tezuka's or Shiraishi's?
.

...They confirmed it in the match itself. Fuji tells himself he is nothing compared to the real Tezuka.
Niou couldnt perform ZSS. That shows his technique isnt as good as Tezuka's as clear as day. I imagine that a similar situation is with a high level player like Shiraishi.

Fuji Shusuke
December 13, 2011, 12:55 AM
I reckon Kabaji wins this one. Kabaji's physique is much better than Niou's, being stronger, likely to have more stamina and to be able to copy a move by seeing it once. The instant Kabaji copied Hyakuren, Tezuka was doomed. Kabaji's Hyakuren was better than Tezuka's. Having more arm strength means he could double a doubled return or even double a quadrupled return. Also, Niou didn't take 4 games to copy Hyakuren, he had the entire Nationals duration to do it. Whereas Kabaji only has the current match because he is simple minded.

Airgrimes
December 13, 2011, 05:30 AM
I reckon Kabaji wins this one. Kabaji's physique is much better than Niou's, being stronger, likely to have more stamina and to be able to copy a move by seeing it once. The instant Kabaji copied Hyakuren, Tezuka was doomed. Kabaji's Hyakuren was better than Tezuka's. Having more arm strength means he could double a doubled return or even double a quadrupled return. Also, Niou didn't take 4 games to copy Hyakuren, he had the entire Nationals duration to do it. Whereas Kabaji only has the current match because he is simple minded.

Against anyone else, Niou wins. Thats JUST power. This series has shown power is most certainly not everything.

Against Shiraishi, Niou becoming Tezuka would be far more effective than Kabaji attempting Perfect TEnnis.

Fuji Shusuke
December 13, 2011, 05:36 AM
If against Shiraishi, Kabaji would watch him for about 3 games and be able to copy his style perfectly. With the addition of his power, Kabaji takes the win.

Airgrimes
December 13, 2011, 01:42 PM
If against Shiraishi, Kabaji would watch him for about 3 games and be able to copy his style perfectly. With the addition of his power, Kabaji takes the win.

No way. I dont see Kabaji defeating any of the Top tier guys.
Shiraishi removes golden weight. Different game.
Im Imagining Kabaji will be able to copy Entaku shot quicky too.

Yukimura says Niou could become even ''you or me'' To Sanada.
Niou becomes Yukimura or Sanada. Thats Game Set.

LetalHawk
December 13, 2011, 03:13 PM
No way. I dont see Kabaji defeating any of the Top tier guys.
Shiraishi removes golden weight. Different game.
Im Imagining Kabaji will be able to copy Entaku shot quicky too.

Yukimura says Niou could become even ''you or me'' To Sanada.
Niou becomes Yukimura or Sanada. Thats Game Set.

Agree with you, Niou could become Yuki and yip Kabaji, or Sanada and spam Rai all over the place. Then Game Set.

Kaoz
December 13, 2011, 04:23 PM
And honestly you could just say why do you think his technique is called Super Copy? Because it's the real thing?


cop·y/ˈkäpē/
Noun:
A thing made to be similar or identical to another.

So yes, as long as Kabaji doesn't lack any required abilities like Insight or Flexible Wrists, it should be more or less the same.

On the other hand...


il·lu·sion/iˈlo͞oZHən/
Noun:

A false idea or belief: "he had no illusions about her".
A deceptive appearance or impression: "the illusion of togetherness".

In other words, it deceives others to make them think it's real, but it isn't.


Yeah we know Niou's is just an Illusion and Kabaji's is a copy. Neither match the real thing.

Why are you constantly arguing that they do then?

-Ken-
December 14, 2011, 02:16 AM
I wish there's someone in the 1st stringer or some national team somewhere that copies someone techniques at a STRONGER strength. That'll be pretty cool.

LetalHawk
December 14, 2011, 10:46 AM
I wish there's someone in the 1st stringer or some national team somewhere that copies someone techniques at a STRONGER strength. That'll be pretty cool.

That can only happen if your physical abilities are stronger than the one who uses the technique. Otherwise, that can't be possible.

Kaoz
December 14, 2011, 11:34 AM
Isn't Hyakuren kinda doing that already?

Fuji Shusuke
December 14, 2011, 11:41 AM
Actually, there might be a technique in which the user can redirect the force of the ball and add some of his own to the mix for a stronger return.

Airgrimes
December 14, 2011, 12:22 PM
Why are you constantly arguing that they do then?

Im not. Im arguing that you cant say Niou is more limited than Kabaji.

Fuji Shusuke
December 17, 2011, 04:31 PM
Ok, this list has been up for almost one year now. Time for the one year revision. Can everyone very carefully just look through the list to check for errors such as missing characters, missing techs, incorrect ordering, spelling errors, incorrect tech name etc.?

---------- Post added December 18, 2011 at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was December 15, 2011 at 02:12 AM ----------

By the way, I came up with a theory as to why Rai cannot be returned using Hyakuren. As you know, Hyakuren is door of Muga in which it uses Muga's property of copying a move and focuses it in an arm and can return a shot shot with double the original properties. The reason why Rai cannot be doubled is not just because the shot is too powerful or has a weird spin, it is because it came from the frame. Rai is hit by using the frame of the racquet, but Hyakuren uses the racquet gut and the racquet gut cannot emulate the racquet frame. As a result of this, even though the shot is copied, it cannot be double returned. This means the original properties of the shot come into play and we all know what Rai does to racquet guts.

-Ken-
December 18, 2011, 05:42 AM
Isn't Hyakuren kinda doing that already?

No, not to the extent that's free enough. I'm talking about kind of when Momoshiro tried to use JK and was returned with a BJK. Now, I know Oni's not copying anybody, but that's just an example.

Fuji Shusuke
December 27, 2011, 09:08 AM
So is Ten Ball Return a technique now or is that kinda overkill? Also, is Evolved Triple Counter more powerful than FuuRinKaZan (not FuuRinKaInZanRai)? Because on the list the Evolved Triple Counter is lower and it was agreed that Ka can be fully returned by Kirin Otoshi.

Airgrimes
December 27, 2011, 06:01 PM
So is Ten Ball Return a technique now or is that kinda overkill? Also, is Evolved Triple Counter more powerful than FuuRinKaZan (not FuuRinKaInZanRai)? Because on the list the Evolved Triple Counter is lower and it was agreed that Ka can be fully returned by Kirin Otoshi.

Houou Gaeshi would defeat FuuRinKaZan, along with Kirin Otoshi, however, Hakuryuu could be caught in the air with a smash now Sanada now has Black Aura which dramatically lifts his abilities.
So New Triple Counter defeats FuuRinKaZan.

---------- Post added at 05:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------


No, not to the extent that's free enough. I'm talking about kind of when Momoshiro tried to use JK and was returned with a BJK. Now, I know Oni's not copying anybody, but that's just an example.

I see.
Like Black Jack Knife is to Jack Knife.
Like Twist Serve is to Kick Serve. Like Houou Gaeshi is to Tsubame Gaeshi. Like Gyro Laser is to Laserbeam.
Like Super Dunk is to Dunk Smash. Like Kirin Otoshi is to Higuma Otoshi. Like Kite's Shukichiho is to the others. Like Curving Laser is to Snake.
Like Samurai Zone is to Tezuka Zone. Like Hakuryuu is to Hakugei. Like Boomerang Snake is to Snake.
Like Devil Mode is to Bloodshot Mode.
Like Kenya's speed is to Kamio's speed. Like 108th Hadoukyuu is to Dash Hadoukyuu. Like Bakyuun is to Laserbeam.

Well you get the idea. I dont think we will see a definete technique that can automatically hit an upgrade back.
But I think this concept is what you were talking about.

Fuji Shusuke
December 27, 2011, 10:41 PM
Should Evolved Triple Counter be moved into the bottom of S or top of A?

Brandnewkid
January 09, 2012, 09:26 PM
Interesting bit of trivia about techniques in PoT: quite a few of them actually do exist in real life, but not in tennis. A few moves are actually possible in table tennis, including a few of Fuji's Triple Counters. I forgot which ones specifically, though.

Fuji Shusuke
January 10, 2012, 02:20 AM
Because of the lighter ball, Hakugei can be pulled off more easily. Higuma Otoshi... well you aren't allowed to volley. Tsubame Gaeshi is possible but the ball needs to be above the net level to execute for the ball to skid along the table. If you have very good control over the paddle, you might be able to execute Kagerou Zutsumi but most of the time the ball with just rebound off your paddle if you aren't skilled. Fifth Counter is impossible to execute in table tennis or maybe almost impossible. Even a master of table tennis would find sliding the ball along the paddle then flipping it would be extremely difficult. Hoshi Hanabi is easily executed but you need supreme control to make the ball very high but can land on the table. Disappearing Serve is easy for veteran players since they can hit with sidespin quite easily.

Airgrimes
January 10, 2012, 12:00 PM
Hoshi Hanabi is easily executed but you need supreme control to make the ball very high but can land on the table.

What? During Table tennis, hit a cordball far high up? so it lands near the baseline? Not easily executed at all lol.

Brandnewkid
January 10, 2012, 02:15 PM
Apparently, the Snake Shot, the Tsubame Gaeshi, and the Zero-shiki Drop Shot are possible in table tennis.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 13, 2012, 01:39 PM
Snake is possible in real tennis too..it's all about side spin..

The video game version of Oshitari's 'triple counters' are possible in both table tennis and real tennis. specifically KuroShachi (his version of Hakugei) which is a drop shot that bounces back over the net...I actually employ this shot on occasion, though I need the perfect set up to do it.

FrostyMouse
January 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
Yeah, in table tennis, I've definitely done droppers which bounce back, setting you up for a nice smashing/hammering back hand.

Fuji Shusuke
January 14, 2012, 08:59 AM
Ok, here is something a little off topic. You know the Zero-shiki Drop Shot and how Tezuka adapted it into a serve. Is it possible for Tezuka to make a Zero-shiki Slice, Smash or Lob?

Airgrimes
January 14, 2012, 04:50 PM
Ok, here is something a little off topic. You know the Zero-shiki Drop Shot and how Tezuka adapted it into a serve. Is it possible for Tezuka to make a Zero-shiki Slice, Smash or Lob?

A Lob would be okay, but it could be dragged back over the net by the opponent if its making its way all the way from the baseline.

A smash would be perfect. A slice easily returned though. But it would still be a kinda high ranked technique since the opponent wont know when it will be a Zero Shiki or an ordinary won.

Fuji Shusuke
January 15, 2012, 03:08 AM
If you had a match and you had to volley to score points, that would be hard. Here is a scenario: Opponent serves, Tezuka uses ZS Slice, Opponent returns as volley and rushes to net, Tezuka uses ZS Lob, Opponent runs back and uses defensive lob, Tezuka finishes with ZS Smash. Or this scenario: Opponent serves, Tezuka uses ZS Drop, Opponent runs at full sprint to return as light volley or lob, Tezuka finishes with ZS Lob or ZS Smash. And we all know what happens if Tezuka serves XD

LetalHawk
January 15, 2012, 02:17 PM
The ZS smash wouldn't cause damage to his arm like the ZSServe?

Airgrimes
January 15, 2012, 04:38 PM
If you had a match and you had to volley to score points, that would be hard. Here is a scenario: Opponent serves, Tezuka uses ZS Slice, Opponent returns as volley and rushes to net, Tezuka uses ZS Lob, Opponent runs back and uses defensive lob, Tezuka finishes with ZS Smash. Or this scenario: Opponent serves, Tezuka uses ZS Drop, Opponent runs at full sprint to return as light volley or lob, Tezuka finishes with ZS Lob or ZS Smash. And we all know what happens if Tezuka serves XD

Hmmm..... This would be too much ownage... Not fair for the rest of the guys in the series lol.

Fuji Shusuke
January 27, 2012, 11:39 AM
Moved the Evolved Triple Counter above FuuRinKaZan

---------- Post added January 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was January 17, 2012 at 07:15 PM ----------

On the Tezuka Kyushu Arc, did Tezuka use a Higuma Otoshi? It was when he protected Miyuki from a smash.
http://www.mangareader.net/422-27182-12/prince-of-tennis/chapter-285.html

Kaoz
January 27, 2012, 12:01 PM
I wouldn't say so. It's not shown and the ending stance is different as well (legs)... I think it was just a backhand.

Airgrimes
January 27, 2012, 01:49 PM
Anyone wondering if there was simply a ''Tomahawk'' before ''Black Tomahawk'' lol.
Since I imagine the word '''Black'' in front of any attack must be intensely dangerous.

FrostyMouse
January 27, 2012, 02:17 PM
Anyone wondering if there was simply a ''Tomahawk'' before ''Black Tomahawk'' lol.
Since I imagine the word '''Black'' in front of any attack must be intensely dangerous.

Well, the only place in sports (not counting Native American tomahawk throwing) that you encounter tomahawk is a tomahawk dunk. A tomahawk is almost like a dunk smash in a way, so Chaos and I figured that a Black Tomahawk would be something like a black version of a dunk smash.

Chaos doesn't watch nba, so I linked him to a video of Lebron throwing it down. I can't stand Lebron, but he does make some nice dunks.

Airgrimes
January 27, 2012, 02:38 PM
Chaos doesn't watch nba, so I linked him to a video of Lebron throwing it down. I can't stand Lebron, but he does make some nice dunks.

Lebron's awesomeness. At least you accept his dunks haha.

FrostyMouse
January 27, 2012, 03:13 PM
Lebron's awesomeness. At least you accept his dunks haha.

When Lebron wins a championship, I'll give him his due, but now that he's 0-2 in Finals, with a combined record of 2-8 in those Finals, hold off a bit. His "clutch gene" isn't really there, and...

Fuji Shusuke
February 20, 2012, 07:08 AM
Anyone think that Kevin Smith's Illusion Shot is rubbish? I just watched the episode and Illusion is just Abare Dama + Entaku Shot. And here I thought the animators made it up themselves.

Airgrimes
February 20, 2012, 09:28 AM
Anyone think that Kevin Smith's Illusion Shot is rubbish? I just watched the episode and Illusion is just Abare Dama + Entaku Shot. And here I thought the animators made it up themselves.

Hahaha yeah. I think its quite a good shot lol.

I also think ZSS has less value now lol. Since I imagine after seeing Mouri return it, several players will now know how to handle it.

Also, Mach Serve perhaps might not be that great, since Ohmagari was disappointed in the others that they couldnt return it, and he's just No.6.

Fuji Shusuke
February 20, 2012, 10:02 AM
ZSS is going to stay up there I think. It is currently the most absolute technique there is. Also I have tiered Mach. Is it too high?

Airgrimes
February 20, 2012, 02:01 PM
ZSS is going to stay up there I think. It is currently the most absolute technique there is. Also I have tiered Mach. Is it too high?

No its not anymore. ZSS can be easily returned by a player of high skill.
I guarantee next time its used against someone at a high level they will return within three attempts.

Brandnewkid
February 21, 2012, 05:33 PM
Anyone think that Kevin Smith's Illusion Shot is rubbish? I just watched the episode and Illusion is just Abare Dama + Entaku Shot. And here I thought the animators made it up themselves.

Anime-only techniques are all rubbish. More often than not, they are rip-offs of existing techniques.

Also, Angel Mode should trade ranks with Devil Mode. Angel Mode is a technique that can only be used by Kirihara when he's playing doubles with Shiraishi. Devil Mode can be used in singles and doubles, and brings about more or less the same increase, it's just it's more harmful.

Fuji Shusuke
February 24, 2012, 07:55 PM
Isn't this this Yuushi's Direct Flat Drive Return?
http://www.mangareader.net/422-27038-16/prince-of-tennis/chapter-141.html

Airgrimes
February 25, 2012, 08:25 AM
Isn't this this Yuushi's Direct Flat Drive Return?
http://www.mangareader.net/422-27038-16/prince-of-tennis/chapter-141.html

Im not too sure there.
It wasnt named so I think we should leave it. But it essentially performed the same purpose and effect of DFDR.

New question.

Curving Laser VS Gyro Laser. Which is harder to return?
And THINK about it first.

Fuji Shusuke
February 25, 2012, 11:13 AM
Gyro Laser is harder to return. Some players could detect the spin of the Curving Laser in time, since it is slower than Gyro, and be able to predict it's path to return it. With Gyro, even if you can predict it, you cannot react to it.

Airgrimes
February 25, 2012, 11:37 AM
Gyro Laser is harder to return. Some players could detect the spin of the Curving Laser in time, since it is slower than Gyro, and be able to predict it's path to return it. With Gyro, even if you can predict it, you cannot react to it.

What makes you say a player could predict Curving Laser? Niou stood no chance at all.
Gyro Laser is just one straight direction.

Both are of the exact same principle. Their greatest advantage as that the stance to perform them can be the same stance for a different technique, which completely mindf*cks the opponent. I really cant see how much better Gyro Laser is to Curving Laser atm.

Also, was the Gyro Laser defienetly faster than the Laserbeam? I cant remember.

LetalHawk
February 25, 2012, 12:09 PM
What makes you say a player could predict Curving Laser? Niou stood no chance at all.
Gyro Laser is just one straight direction.

Both are of the exact same principle. Their greatest advantage as that the stance to perform them can be the same stance for a different technique, which completely mindf*cks the opponent. I really cant see how much better Gyro Laser is to Curving Laser atm.

Also, was the Gyro Laser defienetly faster than the Laserbeam? I cant remember.

Both shots are hard to return and hard to predict. What it's true is that Gyro laser is faster than Curving laser.

I think that Gyro Laser is harder to return because you really can't predict if Kadou's gonna hit that or Tornado Snake. I'm thinking of ways of returning both shots. One of them would be Tezuka Zone and Tezuka Phantom, other Atobe's amazing insight as he returned Ochi's Mach which was way faster than Neo Scud Serve and possibly Gyro Laser.

And Gyro laser far exceeds laserbeam's speed. It's the combination of Laser Beam and Tornado Snake which results in a faster shot.

Fuji Shusuke
February 25, 2012, 12:22 PM
Momo stated that the Gyro Laser was much faster. In theory, the gyro spin caused the ball to have almost no air resistance just like the Tornado Snake, allowing for a much faster return. And also, Niou was able to run to where he thought the ball would be, indicating that there is enough time to sprint to the normal Laser Beam and for higher level players, that amount of time can be used to identify the spin of the ball and return it. However the Gyro, is much faster. Not even Devil Akaya or Yanagi could run to it, let alone react to it. So that is why I think the Gyro Laser beats the Curving Laser.

Also wouldn't Kaidoh be able to use Curving Laser as well XD?

Airgrimes
February 25, 2012, 12:23 PM
Both shots are hard to return and hard to predict. What it's true is that Gyro laser is faster than Curving laser.

I think that Gyro Laser is harder to return because you really can't predict if Kadou's gonna hit that or Tornado Snake. I'm thinking of ways of returning both shots. One of them would be Tezuka Zone and Tezuka Phantom, other Atobe's amazing insight as he returned Ochi's Mach which was way faster than Neo Scud Serve and possibly Gyro Laser.

And Gyro laser far exceeds laserbeam's speed. It's the combination of Laser Beam and Tornado Snake which results in a faster shot.

If Gyro Laser is faster then fair enough.
But the issue of not being able what shot to predict is the EXACT same with Yagyuu.
Does this basically mean Kaidoh is better than Kirihara? Who can only use Tornado Snake, And better than Yagyuu?

LetalHawk
February 25, 2012, 12:35 PM
If Gyro Laser is faster then fair enough.
But the issue of not being able what shot to predict is the EXACT same with Yagyuu.
Does this basically mean Kaidoh is better than Kirihara? Who can only use Tornado Snake, And better than Yagyuu?

Personally, Kaidoh is above them and now even more due to his training.

Airgrimes
February 29, 2012, 01:04 PM
Personally, Kaidoh is above them and now even more due to his training.

Fair enough. Momoshiro's improvement was big so Kaidoh's will probably be just as big.
Although its not as if ALL of athe BJB will have improved at a better rate than the winners. I mean, they are the winners after all.

Also Yanagi didnt improve much despite being a part of the BJB. And to be honest, neither did Kenya.
He sucked right through the match but for some reason he is now the 9th most popular charcter.

So its not impossible that there are several winners that didnt improve so much.

I honestly thought this fodder was gonna Jack Knife here lol.

http://www.mangareader.net/343-58611-2/new-prince-of-tennis/chapter-38.html

LetalHawk
February 29, 2012, 01:47 PM
This fodder, poor Shun lol.

Fuji Shusuke
March 11, 2012, 07:55 AM
I've attempted to tier Insight and Calm Insight. Do I need to make adjustments?

Airgrimes
March 11, 2012, 09:05 AM
Nah its fine.
Where is Mach Serve. Since Atobe and Tezuka are still having great trouble returning it.
It should be high up.

Fuji Shusuke
March 13, 2012, 02:42 AM
It's already been tiered, it's in Rank S.

Airgrimes
March 13, 2012, 05:14 PM
Is it possible that Fuji could easily handle 5ball return?
Ive thought about this since we were shown Fuji easily handling 3 balls at once when practicing to creat Fourth Counter in that flash back before he brought it out against Hirakoba/Chinen pair.(Great match).

Im presuming by now perhaps 5 ball return would be easy for him.

LetalHawk
March 13, 2012, 05:32 PM
Fuji could handle 7 or 8 ball return?

Fuji Shusuke
March 14, 2012, 10:15 AM
Fuji used Fourth Counter to return Entaku Shot. Entaku Shot creates an illusion of way more than 3 balls. Fuji could probably handle 10 ball return.

Kaoz
March 14, 2012, 11:15 AM
I'd like to remind you guys that Kintarou returned Abare Dama's illusion shots but couldn't handle 5 at once right away.

Airgrimes
March 14, 2012, 05:31 PM
I'd like to remind you guys that Kintarou returned Abare Dama's illusion shots but couldn't handle 5 at once right away.

Hmmm... Thats a good point there.
He has Mass Clone technique. So we're talking 20-30 ball return being possible for the guy.

Kaoz
March 14, 2012, 06:33 PM
Hmmm... Thats a good point there.
He has Mass Clone technique. So we're talking 20-30 ball return being possible for the guy.

My point was that Kintarou could do that but couldn't perform 5 at once. Following that, just because Fuji used three balls for his training, it doesn't mean he can hit 5 at once or whatever either.

Airgrimes
March 15, 2012, 03:13 PM
My point was that Kintarou could do that but couldn't perform 5 at once. Following that, just because Fuji used three balls for his training, it doesn't mean he can hit 5 at once or whatever either.

After U-17 Camp training why rule it out? Akutsu could hit 2 prior to the camp then with the camp's training he learned to hit 5,
whats your reason for ruling out Fuji being able to?

Kaoz
March 15, 2012, 04:13 PM
After U-17 Camp training why rule it out? Akutsu could hit 2 prior to the camp then with the camp's training he learned to hit 5,
whats your reason for ruling out Fuji being able to?

He hasn't shown it. Until he does, I won't assume that he can.

As I said before, Kintarou returned a bunch of "balls" during the nationals, but he couldn't hit 5 at once right away. Fuji returning those 3 balls is clearly different than what Kazuya and Oni do, simply because when they hit multiple ones, they are actually spaced out whereas the ones Fuji returned were much closer together.
The only thing in the original that was close/similiar to the X at once shots was Yukimura returning Samurai Drive.

Sure, maybe Fuji can hit multiple shots at once by now, but maybe he can't. I don't see a reason to assume the former though.

mystictapion
March 20, 2012, 01:19 PM
Fuji, I think you forgot to put Niou with Tezuka Zone.

Fuji Shusuke
March 21, 2012, 08:20 AM
Fuji, I think you forgot to put Niou with Tezuka Zone.

Oops, thanks for that.

mystictapion
March 21, 2012, 12:45 PM
Rai also wouldn't work. Even if you are able to teleport, if you can't "see" the ball in the first place, how will you return it? I'm saying that KnS or AK causes the ball to become "invisible" to you. That is why they are called "blind" spots. Those certain points on the court which you cannot see, Atobe aims at them, which is KnS. In addition, if your body cannot conform to the shot, how will your legs and arms move to the correct position to return the shot? That is AK. If Sanada does not know the location of the ball and his body cannot conform to the shot, he can't return it. He will stand still on the court paralysed. So it's not about speed. Being able to react fast enough is different from not being able to react at all.

Sanada will just catch the ball if he notices in time where the ball is going to (certainly the reaction time is slower because it is hitting a Zettai Shikaku). Rai isn't a teleportation, but a Shunpou or Soru in high speed. So, I still didn't understand why AK is below Rai...

Airgrimes
March 21, 2012, 02:09 PM
Sanada will just catch the ball if he notices in time where the ball is going to (certainly the reaction time is slower because it is hitting a Zettai Shikaku). Rai isn't a teleportation, but a Shunpou or Soru in high speed. So, I still didn't understand why AK is below Rai...

Rai is practically teleportation. Its just as efficient. Rai can return shots with Tezuka Zone level spin with ease. That is enough to be amongst THE best shots of the series.
It was arguably THE best shot of Part I. And I mean Shot, not serve or anything.

Fuji Shusuke
March 30, 2012, 08:16 AM
Right Saver added.

Airgrimes
March 30, 2012, 01:57 PM
Right Saver added.

Its such an amazing technique for someone who is effectively an anime-only character lol.

LetalHawk
March 30, 2012, 01:58 PM
Its such an amazing technique for someone who is effectively an anime-only character lol.

Instead, if you apply a counterspin on the ball, then you can break Migihashi's Right Saver. If it's like Tezuka Zone, I can think of many ways of hitting the ball to the left, so it's not that hard to break.

Airgrimes
March 30, 2012, 02:20 PM
Instead, if you apply a counterspin on the ball, then you can break Migihashi's Right Saver. If it's like Tezuka Zone, I can think of many ways of hitting the ball to the left, so it's not that hard to break.

Ryoma couldnt til their were 9 balls. And only one got through.
None of them are easy methods. Most characters cant perform those methods. Therefore it is that hard to break.

LetalHawk
March 30, 2012, 02:46 PM
Ryoma couldnt til their were 9 balls. And only one got through.
None of them are easy methods. Most characters cant perform those methods. Therefore it is that hard to break.

I'm saying that Ryoma could have break through it if he wanted to. He only shot to the right because he wanted to humiliate Migihashi, but if it was a real match, then Ryoma would have break Right Saver, since he perfectly know how to break TZone.

Moreover, not only Ryoma, but top players like Yukimura and Sanada would have defeated Migihashi.

But Right Saver is an amazing technique like TZone, so it's hard to break, but top players should be able to deal with it perfectly.

Airgrimes
March 30, 2012, 04:08 PM
I'm saying that Ryoma could have break through it if he wanted to. He only shot to the right because he wanted to humiliate Migihashi, but if it was a real match, then Ryoma would have break Right Saver, since he perfectly know how to break TZone.

Moreover, not only Ryoma, but top players like Yukimura and Sanada would have defeated Migihashi.

But Right Saver is an amazing technique like TZone, so it's hard to break, but top players should be able to deal with it perfectly.

Ryoma can perfectly break Tezuka Zone? I didnt see that. Remember Anime-fillers dont count.
He didnt humiliate Migihashi. Only one got through. At that moment unfortunately the anime may have screwed up by making Migihashi awesome.

Why could Ryoma have broken it if he wanted to? He couldnt. Not til the end could he break it.
You say only shot to the right?? He had no choice. The technique forced it to the right. He only broke it at the end.

LetalHawk
March 30, 2012, 05:00 PM
Ryoma can perfectly break Tezuka Zone? I didnt see that. Remember Anime-fillers dont count.
He didnt humiliate Migihashi. Only one got through. At that moment unfortunately the anime may have screwed up by making Migihashi awesome.

Why could Ryoma have broken it if he wanted to? He couldnt. Not til the end could he break it.
You say only shot to the right?? He had no choice. The technique forced it to the right. He only broke it at the end.

He has saw it countless times in manga and anime also, so he knows how to defeat it.

And I'm not saying he humiliated him. Echizen could have defeated him if it was an entire set. Migihashi can't pass Echizen as we saw, Ryoma has mounstrously improved and has surpassed players like Migihashi, and reached Tokugawa's level.

Fuji Shusuke
March 30, 2012, 08:55 PM
Tezuka Zone is very complicated. Since there is a different spin every time is is so hard to identify the spin and counter it. However with Right Saver, the spin is always the same: counter-clockwise sidespin, so Echizen could break it by hitting a backhand Drive C.

Airgrimes
March 31, 2012, 04:59 AM
He has saw it countless times in manga and anime also, so he knows how to defeat it.

And I'm not saying he humiliated him. Echizen could have defeated him if it was an entire set. Migihashi can't pass Echizen as we saw, Ryoma has mounstrously improved and has surpassed players like Migihashi, and reached Tokugawa's level.

This is just what I already said. I said it would be close if it was an entire set.
Also, just coz Ryoma has seen how doesnt mean he can easily do it. Inui has all the data on Tezuka Zone and his seen it longer than Ryoma. Your saying he can defeat coz of that? No.
As amazing as Ryoma is, it wont be easy for him to break Tezuka Zone since Tezuka is awesome-ness. Remember anime-fillers DONT count.

Point is, Ryoma would have likely lost that first game had it stayed with one ball. Migihashi seemed like he was all about testing Ryoma from the start. The way he said at the start ''Its the rule to accept challenges from Black Jersey Brigaders''. Migihashi didnt seem like he was trying to get a point with every shot he took. He was just showing off his Right Saver technique. Im saying Ryoma would win a fairly close match.


Ryoma has mounstrously improved and has surpassed players like Migihashi, and reached Tokugawa's level.

Weve seen Tokugawa go all out have we? We dont know this yet either.

LetalHawk
March 31, 2012, 05:21 AM
We don't know, but at least he returned that serve and was keeping up with him easily, before going to the mountains, Tokugawa crushed him, but now Ryoma has been able to rally with him comfortably, so he improved a great deal considering that. I'm saying at least he can hold his own against him.

Still, I think he has yet to get serious and has to show a technique that makes him above Ryoma. Probably, we should see him going all out against Byodouin, and finally defeat him and becoming the new No.1

And about Migihashi, he wasn't holding back at all. When he saw Echizen hit 10 balls, he couldn't believe it, that's why a ball got past him. Echizen would defeat him, I agree that in a close match, but Migihashi isn't able to hit 10 balls, so Echizen surpassed him. You can't deny that.

Airgrimes
March 31, 2012, 05:42 AM
And about Migihashi, he wasn't holding back at all. When he saw Echizen hit 10 balls, he couldn't believe it, that's why a ball got past him. Echizen would defeat him, I agree that in a close match, but Migihashi isn't able to hit 10 balls, so Echizen surpassed him. You can't deny that.

Your right about Echizen surpassing him and being better. I agree also. Ryoma currently is without doubt stronger than Migihashi.

LetalHawk
March 31, 2012, 06:24 AM
Your right about Echizen surpassing him and being better. I agree also. Ryoma currently is without doubt stronger than Migihashi.

What's strange is Oishi. Oishi defeating a 2nd court player? Oishi? Well then, he now should be able to defeat Kikumaru since his stats were poor at the start and now his abilities should have increased far more than I was expecting.

Airgrimes
March 31, 2012, 07:36 AM
What's strange is Oishi. Oishi defeating a 2nd court player? Oishi? Well then, he now should be able to defeat Kikumaru since his stats were poor at the start and now his abilities should have increased far more than I was expecting.

Well, friends and I immediately theorized that 2nd Court must have had 2 Doubles Specialists or Doubles-but-weak-at-Singles players like 3rd Court has Washio and Suzuki.
It could have been that the 2nd Court Doubles players played separately to take on Oishi and Shishido. I mean, Washio and Suzuki separately we can assume are Shishido level.
Or Oishi was playing doubles with someone and Shishido was playing Doubles with someone when we saw them in action.
Coz your quite right to be confused when Oishi's Singles skill level is fairly... Shit.

And dont be silly about Oishi defeating Kikumaru lol. The anime changed things. Kikumaru >> Oishi. Remember Kikumaru can use Seal Step to make a clone, and his stamina is above Oishi's. Kikumaru handed Oishi 2 points in the manga. IGNORE the anime match. Kikumaru WILL kick Oishi's ass. In the anime Kikumaru didnt even get serious or use his Beam or Bazooka.
Konomi doesnt run the anime. For stats and stuff the Manga is the one to reference. More so for Part II than Part I.

Fuji Shusuke
April 17, 2012, 05:30 AM
I put Ochi's Eye in. It's called Mental Assassination (for now).

Fuji Shusuke
July 12, 2012, 01:19 AM
Duke Homerun added.

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 02:23 AM
How do we know it's Rank SS? All we know for now is that it is stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. But, the Kinatro's move and Kawamura's Final Hadokyu is also stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. So, how do we know Duke Homerun is stronger than both of those?

Fuji Shusuke
July 12, 2012, 05:41 AM
Well if Gin was blown away by Duke Homerun and only suffered a broken wrist from Final Hadoukyu...

Fayte
July 12, 2012, 07:49 AM
How do we know it's Rank SS? All we know for now is that it is stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. But, the Kinatro's move and Kawamura's Final Hadokyu is also stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. So, how do we know Duke Homerun is stronger than both of those?

Because the laws of advancement say it would be stupid to introduce a new "stronger" power player without having his techniques being stronger than the previous ones already shown. That alone makes him not stronger.

FrostyMouse
July 12, 2012, 09:28 AM
How do we know it's Rank SS? All we know for now is that it is stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. But, the Kinatro's move and Kawamura's Final Hadokyu is also stronger than the 108th Hadokyu. So, how do we know Duke Homerun is stronger than both of those?

The Final Hadokyuu was only in the anime, and the serve that Kawamura hit was only equivalent to a 40th or 50th level Hadokyuu in the first place. When Kawamura hits a 108th, he breaks a steel pole.

In terms of whether Duke Homerun is superior to anything Oni can hit, we're not sure. Sai told us that there was something about Duke Homerun in relation to Oni's strength, but he couldn't translate it on the spot, so he wasn't sure exactly.

Hardy
July 12, 2012, 09:32 AM
I don't see Bane's Pronation Serve anywhere...

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 11:28 AM
Because the laws of advancement

WTF are you talking abouttttttttttttttt.


The Final Hadokyuu was only in the anime, and the serve that Kawamura hit was only equivalent to a 40th or 50th level Hadokyuu in the first place. When Kawamura hits a 108th, he breaks a steel pole.

Final Hadokyu was not only in the anime. The shot that Kawamura hit to beat Gin? No, that was definitely in the manga, and in the Pair Puris it is said to have power equal to that of a gun.

Fuji Shusuke
July 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
Its place on the tier list can be moved up or down when we get more information.


I don't see Bane's Pronation Serve anywhere...

Thanks for that :D

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 AM ----------

Actually, Duke Homerun should stay in Rank SS. This technique is killer, literally. With this one shot you can instantly bench most players. It forced someone like Gin to retire (I'm not sure if that's what happened or if it was the last point). Regardless, Gin would have to retire if he is going to be flung tens of metres in the air with enormous force. Due to the fact that it's a match ending technique and it only requires a ball to the forehand side it should be in SS. It is not a technique which has major prerequisites such as a lob for Yama Arashi or a serve chance like Final Hadoukyu.

FrostyMouse
July 12, 2012, 12:12 PM
WTF are you talking abouttttttttttttttt.

He means that high tier characters introduced later in the story are at a higher level than earlier introduced characters. Duke's completely upped the power game to a whole new level.


Final Hadokyu was not only in the anime. The shot that Kawamura hit to beat Gin? No, that was definitely in the manga, and in the Pair Puris it is said to have power equal to that of a gun.

Did you read what I said? The Final Hadokyuu was anime only in that it was a hadokyuu of sorts. In the manga, the serve Kawamura hits is a serve using the frame, which creates a power shot that's not the Hadokyuu, so Gin can't neutralize it.

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 12:38 PM
He means that high tier characters introduced later in the story are at a higher level than earlier introduced characters. Duke's completely upped the power game to a whole new level.

Mehh.


Did you read what I said? The Final Hadokyuu was anime only in that it was a hadokyuu of sorts. In the manga, the serve Kawamura hits is a serve using the frame, which creates a power shot that's not the Hadokyuu, so Gin can't neutralize it.

Taken from the manga, the scene where Kawamura hits it.

"This is the last Hadokyuuuuuu!!"

Taken from the Pair Puri: "The last Hadokyu in the match against Ishida Gin was a memorable shot."

Yes, it is performed differently than Hadokyus 1-108, but it is still considered a Hadokyu in the manga. It's just a new style or variation of it, like the Dash Hadokyu.

FrostyMouse
July 12, 2012, 01:00 PM
Mehh.



Taken from the manga, the scene where Kawamura hits it.

"This is the last Hadokyuuuuuu!!"

Taken from the Pair Puri: "The last Hadokyu in the match against Ishida Gin was a memorable shot."

Yes, it is performed differently than Hadokyus 1-108, but it is still considered a Hadokyu in the manga. It's just a new style or variation of it, like the Dash Hadokyu.

It's still not a hadokyuu.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c331/7.html

Gin's says, "It's not a hadokyuu!! (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c331/9.html)"

The Dash Hadokyuu is still a level 1 hadokyuu (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c328/8.html), which makes it able to be neutralized by Gin's Hadokyuu Canceller, whereas Kawamura's frame serve can't be neutralized, which means that it is unequivocally not a hadokyuu.

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 01:12 PM
It's still classified as a Hadokyu in the databooks, though. So, what do you want to call it rather than "Final Hadokyu?" Lets call it "Move That Is Called A Hadokyu Out Of Convenience But Is Not A Hadokyu Because Gin Couldn't Neutralize It," or MTICAHOOCBINAHBGCNI.

It's like the Super Saiyan 4 transformation in Dragon Ball GT, it is a form completely different from all the other Super Saiyan transformations, something new altogether, but it is called "Super Saiyan 4" out of convenience according to Word of God.

FrostyMouse
July 12, 2012, 01:19 PM
It's still classified as a Hadokyu in the databooks, though. So, what do you want to call it rather than "Final Hadokyu?" Lets call it "Move That Is Called A Hadokyu Out Of Convenience But Is Not A Hadokyu Because Gin Couldn't Neutralize It," or MTICAHOOCBINAHBGCNI.

It's like the Super Saiyan 4 transformation in Dragon Ball GT, it is a form completely different from all the other Super Saiyan transformations, something new altogether, but it is called "Super Saiyan 4" out of convenience according to Word of God.

That's why the anime called it Final Hadokyuu, but that leads to the assumption that the serve was a hadokyuu. I usually just refer to it as the final serve against Gin or Kawamura's frame serve.

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 01:32 PM
That's why the anime called it Final Hadokyuu, but that leads to the assumption that the serve was a hadokyuu. I usually just refer to it as the final serve against Gin or Kawamura's frame serve.

... So how bout that Duke Homerun?

FrostyMouse
July 12, 2012, 01:34 PM
... So how bout that Duke Homerun?

I'll need Sai to get us a full translation of the conversation between Duke and Oni before I can really say much more. I'm fine with the name as Gin did go flying and was knocked out, so it was essentially a homerun. :P

Hardy
July 12, 2012, 03:09 PM
64- Impression – Hitouji Yuuji

Really? That high?

How is it better than the Neo-Scud Serve and the 108 Hadoukyu?...

Brandnewkid
July 12, 2012, 03:23 PM
64- Impression – Hitouji Yuuji

Really? That high?

How is it better than the Neo-Scud Serve and the 108 Hadoukyu?...

If we've learned anything from the Prince of Tennis, it's that original techniques are so yesterday. Copy-catting and Mega-Manning is where it's at.

Fuji Shusuke
July 13, 2012, 08:36 AM
64- Impression – Hitouji Yuuji

Really? That high?

How is it better than the Neo-Scud Serve and the 108 Hadoukyu?...

Sadly yes. He has shown to be able to copy any of the opponent's moves (so far) and without high enough mental strength, you will lose. Look at how he easily copied an advanced technique like Tornado Snake. Also it breaks up doubles formations due to the voice replication. Although it is not quite at the level of Niou's S ranked Illusion, it is a powerful technique and deserves to be in Rank A.

Airgrimes
July 16, 2012, 11:34 AM
Sadly yes. He has shown to be able to copy any of the opponent's moves (so far) and without high enough mental strength, you will lose. Look at how he easily copied an advanced technique like Tornado Snake. Also it breaks up doubles formations due to the voice replication. Although it is not quite at the level of Niou's S ranked Illusion, it is a powerful technique and deserves to be in Rank A.

Perfectly put. Its just that Hitouji physically sucks.
You give Hitouji Sanada's physique and we have one heck of a player.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------



Yes, it is performed differently than Hadokyus 1-108, but it is still considered a Hadokyu in the manga. It's just a new style or variation of it, like the Dash Hadokyu.

Precisely. Its outside of the 108 Degrees of Hadoukyuu but still a Hadoukyuu nonetheless.

Fayte
July 18, 2012, 06:25 PM
Why are we talking about Hitouji again?

Hardy
July 18, 2012, 07:05 PM
Why are we talking about Hitouji again?

Because I didn't read the 16 pages like any other normal person. Sorry about that.

Fuji Shusuke
September 03, 2012, 10:32 AM
Added Execution Style 13: Guillotine into Rank S.

---------- Post added September 03, 2012 at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was August 07, 2012 at 08:27 PM ----------

I added "Electric Chair" in. I also felt that "Tsuna Watari" should be in Rank S.
After seeing this page (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c085/7.html) you can see that the ball is only millimetres away from the net, which makes it almost impossible to return.

Airgrimes
September 23, 2012, 09:46 AM
Added Execution Style 13: Guillotine into Rank S.

---------- Post added September 03, 2012 at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was August 07, 2012 at 08:27 PM ----------

I added "Electric Chair" in. I also felt that "Tsuna Watari" should be in Rank S.
After seeing this page (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c085/7.html) you can see that the ball is only millimetres away from the net, which makes it almost impossible to return.

Why is Guillotine in Rank S??
LOL, Kite returned it comfortable after a while.

---------- Post added September 23, 2012 at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was September 05, 2012 at 02:22 AM ----------

Bio Magnetism

Users: Kieth

Its nothing short of a Kame-Hame Ha from DBZ.
The user stores energy in between to hands as he takes a big swing with his racket. When he returns the shot, a force-field released from his shot acts like a wall, throwing the opponent to the back of the court.

Fuji Shusuke
September 23, 2012, 12:12 PM
I don't really like putting movie techniques up since they are non-canonical, but then again, some anime techniques aren't canonical too. I'll put it in the list along with Gemini.

LetalHawk
September 23, 2012, 12:43 PM
Yeah, they're non canon and that move was lame, easy to return.

Airgrimes
September 23, 2012, 12:54 PM
I don't really like putting movie techniques up since they are non-canonical, but then again, some anime techniques aren't canonical too. I'll put it in the list along with Gemini.

Sorry, just mark it as Movie only as well lol.
It really was a Kame Hame Ha though lol.

Fuji Shusuke
October 01, 2012, 08:28 PM
Kite has Viking Horn.

I don't know where to put Perfect Fortress.

Hardy
October 01, 2012, 08:51 PM
Kite has Viking Horn.

I don't know where to put Perfect Fortress.

Kite has everything from Higa lol.

Wait till the nex chapter, it's probably B rank...

Airgrimes
October 02, 2012, 02:15 AM
Kite has everything from Higa lol.

Wait till the nex chapter, it's probably B rank...
I think A-Rank. It's like Marui has eliminated Jackal lol.

Hardy
October 02, 2012, 02:32 AM
I think A-Rank. It's like Marui has eliminated Jackal lol.

Poor Jackal. First Marui cheats on him with Kite, and now Bunta is almost able to play alone. He'll soon join the forgotten bros.

LetalHawk
October 02, 2012, 04:39 AM
Poor Jackal. First Marui cheats on him with Kite, and now Bunta is almost able to play alone. He'll soon join the forgotten bros.

Yes, and probably we see some technique from Kimijima at least, that will be S tier at least.