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dtyk
January 27, 2011, 07:07 AM
I have thought of this question for quite some time.

How did the admirals become so strong? What kind of training would they most likely have undergone? Rokushiki training? Haki training? Training up their own devil fruit abilities?

On the other hand, don't NW pirates train as well? Conquering territories and trying to best one another in battle? Through this endeavour, I expect their combat skills to, per se, "level up."

Yet, at the marineford arc, we see how little the pirates fared against the admirals (except for Whitebeard, that is). Marco and Jozu were, frankly, quite pathetic. What more about Ace? Assumingly he had haki (colour of armaments), he could HAVE put up a defense against Akainu. But what we see is Akainu completely curbstomping him. Assuming Akainu's COA haki overpowering Ace's COA, what MADE Akainu have a higher degree of control of COA over Ace? Was "Ace" slacking as a fighter? Or is it the admirals have been trying to perfect their art?

Another alternative explanation that I can think of is that the admirals are fast learners? I spoke about this issue to a friend before, and he suggested that as the admirals are physically older in age, that could have explained the perfecting of their abilities. If so, what is the limiting factor on age then? We know that Whitebeard fought at marineford with some of his power diminished due to old age, so then, to what age will one's physical prowess diminish? However, Whitebeard still retains much of his strength though, to be considered a threat.

Another way to phrase my question is "why can't anyone chase up to the admiral's level and stand toe-to-toe with them?"

Okay, enough ranting for now. I think I'm thinking too much. XD

ScratchmenApoo
January 27, 2011, 07:19 AM
Most likely it is because the Admirals have more years of experience with their Devil Fruits and Haki and train themselves more constantly. Ace might have had his Devil Fruit's power only for a maximum of 3 years, whereras Akainu could have had his Devil Fruit's power for over 20 years.

Also, the Marines might have purposefully included Haki and Rokushiki training to their thousands of new recruits, whereas only some single Pirates train it on their own or get training from someone strong.

kkck
January 27, 2011, 09:37 AM
I think they were talented people who trained regularly. With time they developed their DF abilities and with experience came haki. I don't think there is much to the story.

malgranda
January 27, 2011, 02:06 PM
I suspect pirates get strong mainly by doing adventures and stuff, and marines get strong by being trained by great retired marines - so pirates rediscover strength all the time while marines inherit strength of their predecessors.

kkck
January 27, 2011, 03:50 PM
Well, the strawhats at least do train regularly as far as I can tell, even before the timeskip. We have actually seen zoro training on the ship and we have also seen ussop making stuff while on it. The strawhats, like most other pirates, spend most of their time at sea. I would think they train quite a bit while at it. As for the admirals and marines, I think they train regularly as we saw with coby and helmepo and being out at sea fighting pirates does not hurt either.

elitefox
February 01, 2011, 04:52 AM
Well see the age difference and how Ace was beat up and weakened before the fight

he might match akainu if he is 2 years and in full health

MaiSiaoSiao
February 01, 2011, 06:16 AM
Experience.
And @elitefox i dont think that Ace can even with Akainu even if hes in top form.Like Akainu said.Magma>Fire.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 01, 2011, 12:18 PM
I'd say that the Admirals are powerful because of their experience and especially Devil Fruits. Their DFs are pretty powerful, maybe among several most powerful in OP world. Also they had plenty of time to train their DFs, about 20 or more years. About their fisical capacities, martial arts or Haki... I wouldn't say that it is really great, cause they didn't show it. A bit of CoA Haki, but also not that much to consider it powerful.

Dark God Zeus
February 01, 2011, 07:47 PM
Generally the "evil" villains focus on training to become strong, gaining power to complete their goal. He's had years of pure "absolute justice" training beaten into him, years of training with his devil fruit, knowledge of haki/devil fruits (He knew that magma would burn through fire, he also seemed to heal after Marco and Vista's haki attack);

P.I.E.86
February 01, 2011, 09:38 PM
I dunno if there's a hierarchy within the admirals but Rayleigh did make Kizaru try and eventually got away from him.

"why can't anyone chase up to the admiral's level and stand toe-to-toe with them?"

To answer your question I think the only people that can stand up to admirals are legends just like Reyleigh, Dragon, and Shanks. Whether they can beat them though is another question. All I know is that when rubber and magma collide there's gonna be one hell of a fight.

Poneglyph420
February 03, 2011, 02:06 PM
How you ask..? By getting their butts kicked by the legends of the old Era.
Then Garp would laugh at them..
So they trained a bunch and now they are a 3 man wrecking crew..

Garp's not laughing any more.

luffyg2
February 12, 2011, 03:09 AM
Probably a mix of talent, experience, training and luck ... i say luck because all three of them have gread DF ..mater of fact they have some of the strongest logia DF we've seen

Amazeroth
February 15, 2011, 08:29 AM
Experience.
And @elitefox i dont think that Ace can even with Akainu even if hes in top form.Like Akainu said.Magma>Fire.

I think Ace could easily be as strong as Akainu, but only with much much more experience and training. He was way too young, I think.

Things like "Magma>Fire" don't count for much, because there are other ways of being very strong, like haki. Just look at Rayleigh, he did easily fight Kizaru without use of any DF. So Ace could fight Akainu too, he was just missing experience and training.

Uriel
February 15, 2011, 01:13 PM
Also we saw how Beckman and Shanks can easily stand toe-to-toe with admirals without having (Presumably, at least Shanks is for sure) any DF.

Many people have "Pokemon" logic so they try to understand the battle as "Stronger always win" forgetting that this is ADVENTURE manga and situations counts LOTS. Mood, context, moral and other stuff influence the battle all the time. And in the war that was current currency, we couldn't see all the fights and know that Marco and Jozu were highly participative on them (I kinda hate when people say they were lacking without thinking about factors)

Anyway, to the point: As Luffy trains now, as Coby trains now: Find a master, practice, rinse and repeat.

shinsengumi
February 15, 2011, 01:30 PM
well i think its not that admirals became so strong but the strong ones became admirals

Freid
February 15, 2011, 02:50 PM
Shinsengumi is correct. The admirals just have more potential than those that are unable to become as strong as them. That is why there are varying power levels in One Piece; the potential between each person simply differs. CP9 for example, underwent far more vigorous training than any Strawhat, but was ultimately still defeated by the almost limitless potential of the Strawhats.

Haynes
February 15, 2011, 05:34 PM
I have thought of this question for quite some time.

How did the admirals become so strong? What kind of training would they most likely have undergone? Rokushiki training? Haki training? Training up their own devil fruit abilities?

On the other hand, don't NW pirates train as well? Conquering territories and trying to best one another in battle? Through this endeavour, I expect their combat skills to, per se, "level up."

Yet, at the marineford arc, we see how little the pirates fared against the admirals (except for Whitebeard, that is). Marco and Jozu were, frankly, quite pathetic. What more about Ace? Assumingly he had haki (colour of armaments), he could HAVE put up a defense against Akainu. But what we see is Akainu completely curbstomping him. Assuming Akainu's COA haki overpowering Ace's COA, what MADE Akainu have a higher degree of control of COA over Ace? Was "Ace" slacking as a fighter? Or is it the admirals have been trying to perfect their art?

Another alternative explanation that I can think of is that the admirals are fast learners? I spoke about this issue to a friend before, and he suggested that as the admirals are physically older in age, that could have explained the perfecting of their abilities. If so, what is the limiting factor on age then? We know that Whitebeard fought at marineford with some of his power diminished due to old age, so then, to what age will one's physical prowess diminish? However, Whitebeard still retains much of his strength though, to be considered a threat.

Another way to phrase my question is "why can't anyone chase up to the admiral's level and stand toe-to-toe with them?"

Okay, enough ranting for now. I think I'm thinking too much. XD

We know that Vice Admirals have Haki, so the Admirals have Haki as well. They all have Logia devil fruits. We've seen other Marines (mainly Vice Admirals) use Rokushiki. So the Admirals probably know it as well. They had the previous Admirals and Admiral level fighters to look up to and perhaps be trained by. Plus there are only 3 of them, and a bunch of Vice Admirals and with the VA's performance, I'd personally say there's a good size gap between the two. Meaning that they are typically the strongest Marines.

So naturally only a select few even have the potential to stand up to an Admiral. Because the Admirals are a select few.

Aokiji had his devil fruit back during the Ohara Buster Call. As for Kizaru and Akainu we don't know how long they've had theirs. But we can assume they've had it for quite a while. They've had time to train their devil fruits.


I think Ace could easily be as strong as Akainu, but only with much much more experience and training. He was way too young, I think.

Things like "Magma>Fire" don't count for much, because there are other ways of being very strong, like haki. Just look at Rayleigh, he did easily fight Kizaru without use of any DF. So Ace could fight Akainu too, he was just missing experience and training.



Magama>Fire is a very important variable. As was said by Akainu, "Magama consumes Fire". This whole Haki thing (mainly CoA) isn't all that impressive right now because we haven't seen it too much. Plus just because you have Haki doesn't mean that you can hurt a logia. Look at Marco and Vista, sure they "cut" Akainu, but he just healed. Whitebeard used his Haki to stop Kizaru from attacking Luffy, it didn't hurt Kizaru. It only gives the potential, nothing more.

MaiSiaoSiao
February 15, 2011, 08:08 PM
Theres probably more to haki then we now.Gotta wait for Oda to reveal it.

For me i think its the "level and amount" of haki.For example WB could damage akainu with his CoA while marco and vista could just "cut" him.This goes to say WB CoA is of a higher level then marco/vista or WB used more CoA when he decided to attack akainu,more then he did when he tried to attack kizaru.
As rayleigh said.CoA and CoO CAN be trained.So logically WB as an older guy had more time to train them.

Shuusui
February 15, 2011, 09:06 PM
Theres probably more to haki then we now.Gotta wait for Oda to reveal it.

For me i think its the "level and amount" of haki.For example WB could damage akainu with his CoA while marco and vista could just "cut" him.This goes to say WB CoA is of a higher level then marco/vista or WB used more CoA when he decided to attack akainu,more then he did when he tried to attack kizaru.
As rayleigh said.CoA and CoO CAN be trained.So logically WB as an older guy had more time to train them.
i think it's about to notice the attacks,
when wb attack akainu, akainu try to pass marco
and he got hit from behind, then he give serious wound to whitebeard
but when marco attack to admiral they know ,where it come from and take precaution with COA
or whitebeard stabbed with spear both aokiji and kizaru, didn't hurt them
even marco and vista attack to gather , then akainu said ; ''ahh!!''
i think admirals are very strong
even dark king rayleigh can't defeat kizaru and sweat against him...

MaiSiaoSiao
February 16, 2011, 12:39 AM
i think it's about to notice the attacks,
when wb attack akainu, akainu try to pass marco
and he got hit from behind, then he give serious wound to whitebeard
but when marco attack to admiral they know ,where it come from and take precaution with COA
or whitebeard stabbed with spear both aokiji and kizaru, didn't hurt them
even marco and vista attack to gather , then akainu said ; ''ahh!!''
i think admirals are very strong
even dark king rayleigh can't defeat kizaru and sweat against him...

Impossible.If they knew that the attacks were coming and "evaded" the attacks, wouldn't that make Logia users invincible as long as they keep training their CoO?The most obvious example would be Ace getting killed by Akainu.Ace knew that the attack was coming yet he couldn't let the attack pass through him.
It either has something to do with the "amount and level" of Haki used or its something Oda have installed for us

LeKuaSimi
February 16, 2011, 04:43 AM
In my opinion, the Marines and WG is far stronger than any of the Yonkous. However, the reason why they cannot get to Raftel is because the 4 Yonkous would team up against the Marines and WG if that happens. Even post time-skip, the ex-WB members will team up if necessary.

How did the admirals grow so strong? Well, I don't think it is far fetched to say that, generally, it is a better life being a marine, compared to a pirate. The top "talents" would have been scouted by the marines and then hired.

MaiSiaoSiao
February 16, 2011, 05:22 AM
In my opinion, the Marines and WG is far stronger than any of the Yonkous. However, the reason why they cannot get to Raftel is because the 4 Yonkous would team up against the Marines and WG if that happens. Even post time-skip, the ex-WB members will team up if necessary.

How did the admirals grow so strong? Well, I don't think it is far fetched to say that, generally, it is a better life being a marine, compared to a pirate. The top "talents" would have been scouted by the marines and then hired.

Well number matters.Just be comparing the amount of Marines at the HQ and amount of WB's pirate there.The pirates were outnumbered 10-1.And the Marines had it all planned out.
How bout the Marines send 1 BattleShip out to the open sea to have a skirmish with 1 Yonkou's Ship.
Remember that shanks crew sank an Entire battle fleet just to have a meeting with WhiteBeard.And he only had 1 ship.Besides the WG was scared of the Yonkous so they had to form the Marines and assemble the Shichibukai.Just to reign in the Yonkous and form a Delicate peace.

The high rankings marines weren't scouted.They join on their own free will of "Justice".Only the Shicibukai.The Marines saw them as a future threat so they offered them "truce"

LeidenReloaded
February 16, 2011, 07:57 AM
.Ace knew that the attack was coming yet he couldn't let the attack pass through him.


The point here is that Ace wanted to cover Luffy so he was forced to take the attack. if Akainu would slipped trough him his brother would be dead now.

Imo most of the Power from the Admirals comes from the Logia DF. I mean we have seen NOTHING but DF attacks from them. Using a Logia ability makes you nearly untouchable and then having a DF like Akainu where you simply activate it and be strong as hell.

I mean look at Smoker. During the War there was a Pic where he looks at Tashgi while taking an attack from a random NW Pirate that slips through him. How is that supposed to be strong? I mean that was simply activating his DF and be untouchable. Thats why i like characters like Lucci and even Enel (he used martials technics together with his DF) more because they make more use of there body as of their DF.

Just my opinion.

Shuusui
February 16, 2011, 08:29 AM
Impossible.If they knew that the attacks were coming and "evaded" the attacks, wouldn't that make Logia users invincible as long as they keep training their CoO?The most obvious example would be Ace getting killed by Akainu.Ace knew that the attack was coming yet he couldn't let the attack pass through him.
It either has something to do with the "amount and level" of Haki used or its something Oda have installed for us

but we are talking about admirals , right ?
i mean , admirals become master their df logia powers
we can't compare with new user like ace or they(enel,croco,smoker) don't have COA like admirals
also i think admirals can turn their body element before the attack, like aokiji vs wb and kizaru vs wb or akainu vs marco-vista , cos when we saw them how manage the escape they become ice,light or magma
another clue about this; when jozu punch crocodile, croco take serious wound but same punch goes to aokiji, he just take scratch on his lip
i think this is something about df mastery

MaiSiaoSiao
February 16, 2011, 07:03 PM
Aokiji didnt just take a "scratch" from that hit Jozu gave.He bled from inside his body.Its blood coming out from his mouth.
About the mastery of DF i think Croco has the upper hand.Hes mastery of DF was up to the level that he could turn it on upon reflexes.

Shuusui
February 16, 2011, 08:09 PM
Aokiji didnt just take a "scratch" from that hit Jozu gave.He bled from inside his body.Its blood coming out from his mouth.
About the mastery of DF i think Croco has the upper hand.Hes mastery of DF was up to the level that he could turn it on upon reflexes.

croco ? i can't compare his df talents with admirals, i think even ace better user than him

MaiSiaoSiao
February 16, 2011, 11:30 PM
I think ur just Biased bout Croco.Yea he was the bad guy but u can doubt the mastery he had on his DF.He was able to turn into logia just in time when do-flamingo attack him from behind cutting off his neck.

The Noobslayer
February 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
Perhaps the Magma, light, and ice devil fruits have been in possession of the government for a while. Kept by officers until death and willed to their students/underlings.

DutchPhoenix
February 20, 2011, 12:06 PM
enel had the best mastery of his fruit imo, he was even able to turn into a god mode of lighting in the final clash.

Haynes
February 21, 2011, 04:49 PM
Where are you getting this "turned into"? They become that element when they ate their devil fruit. They no longer have normal bodies.

That's like saying, Luffy turns rubber only when he's fighting or expecting an attack. No his body IS rubber, it DOESN'T become rubber.

MaiSiaoSiao
February 21, 2011, 07:21 PM
Where are you getting this "turned into"? They become that element when they ate their devil fruit. They no longer have normal bodies.

That's like saying, Luffy turns rubber only when he's fighting or expecting an attack. No his body IS rubber, it DOESN'T become rubber.

Logias dont lose their bodies.They have the ability to turn into the element of their DF.If as you said,they no longer have their normal bodies,then wouldn't akainu melt everything he touches and aokiji freezes everything he touches too?

And Luffy is a paramecia.His body stays rubber till the day he die.

Dekker
February 21, 2011, 07:23 PM
Where are you getting this "turned into"? They become that element when they ate their devil fruit. They no longer have normal bodies.

That's like saying, Luffy turns rubber only when he's fighting or expecting an attack. No his body IS rubber, it DOESN'T become rubber.

Actually their Bodies dont become the element once they eat them. Or did you see Kizaru glowing all day? Smoker said it somewhere in the war that Boa ws able to hit him even if he wasn't in solid mode (wait, is Smoke ever solid? hell no it is not). So simply said, they can produce infinite amount of their element and they can turn themself into their element at will, but the dont necessarily become the element all the time.

Also never forget that Ace pretty much "turned off" his logia mode to safe Luffy.

Haynes
February 22, 2011, 03:12 PM
Logias dont lose their bodies.They have the ability to turn into the element of their DF.If as you said,they no longer have their normal bodies,then wouldn't akainu melt everything he touches and aokiji freezes everything he touches too?

And Luffy is a paramecia.His body stays rubber till the day he die.

No Akainu would not melt everything he touches nor Aokiji freeze everything he touches.
Remember when that pirate shot at Kizaru and it went right through him, while he was appearing to be solid?
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-507/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-507/page014.html

All the times Akainu got attacked during the war, while walking around.



Actually their Bodies dont become the element once they eat them. Or did you see Kizaru glowing all day? Smoker said it somewhere in the war that Boa ws able to hit him even if he wasn't in solid mode (wait, is Smoke ever solid? hell no it is not). So simply said, they can produce infinite amount of their element and they can turn themself into their element at will, but the dont necessarily become the element all the time.

Also never forget that Ace pretty much "turned off" his logia mode to safe Luffy.

Boa was able to hit Smoker because of her Haki. As far as Ace "turning off" his logia, where do you get that? Because it didn't just go right through him an hit Luffy? You're forgetting about the abilities and how they match up. Magama > Fire.

Smoker: ...?!! Someone managed to attack my body of smoke...?!!!
(skip a few bubbles of chatter)
Smoker: So this is the kuja's "haki"...!!
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-559/page013.html

MaiSiaoSiao
February 22, 2011, 06:30 PM
Why wouldnt they?if like you said,they no longer have their normal bodies,wouldnt akainu stand magma and aokiji stay ice?
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Logia
"Logia Devil Fruits allow a person to become a natural element, either in whole or in part. They are neither completely human nor element in their default state".

frontaLobotomy
February 22, 2011, 07:04 PM
As simple as it sounds, the main reason they got to where they are is their own ambition, and by extension Haki. Fate probably has something to do with it as well, it seems to play a big part in the One Piece world. The fact that they all have hax DF powers just shows how fate seems to favour strong people that want to have an impact on the world.

karthikmurs
February 22, 2011, 08:32 PM
All admirals are logia users for one. Logia is usually stronger than either of Paramecia or Zoan. To hurt them, one'd have to use haki OR have a DF ability which naturally overpowers the Admirals' abilities. lets see what admirals have.

1. Very strong DF ability.
2. Haki which can be used to counter haki or use it to their own advantage.
3. Years and years of battle experience that have enabled to push their DF ability to limits (though I don't dispute there is a possibility that they can be improved further).
4. Physical combatant strength.

As to whether they are invincible -
I have a short list of people who might possibly stand a chance of beating them or at least stand on equal footing.(my personal list and its up to my understanding)
Shanks, Rayleigh, Garp, Sengoku, Marco, Boa, Mihawk.

Each of them rival admirals in at least two of their strong points. And that is what it takes to stand upto an admiral on an equal footing.