Nanamine vs. Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji

[Reclaimer]

For this thread, we are going to operate under two assumptions:
1) Nanamine has no role in the writing of the story. He just takes the ideas his internet group decides on and draws them. (This seems unlikely because the group isn't writing a script, just coming up with ideas, but thats beside the point for this thread)
2) If he gets help in drawing, it is not more than he would get from assistants.

If we assume those to be true, how is Nanamine any different than Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural)? He is an artist drawing a manga from a script. Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural) aren't vilified by the people on this forum as cheaters because they have someone else write the series. Is it because Nanamine portrays his series as being written/drawn by a single person? Ashirogi Muto is a pen name which gives the impression that it is done by one person. (Hence Eiji's surprise/comment about how that explains why their work is so multi-layered.)

I get the feeling that people disliked his promotional methods (which were absolutely brilliant) and thus are predisposed to feel negatively against him in all regards.

[saladesu]

Hmm, I was hoping more people would respond to this. I think this is a very interesting discussion, thank you for starting it, Reclaimer :thumbs


Is it because Nanamine portrays his series as being written/drawn by a single person? Ashirogi Muto is a pen name which gives the impression that it is done by one person. (Hence Eiji's surprise/comment about how that explains why their work is so multi-layered.)

Interesting point - I never thought of it this way before. But the difference to me is this: Ashirogi Muto, while giving the impression that it is a single person, incorporates the names of both Saikou and Shuujin (and Azuki too but that's not so important). It's something that both Saikou and Shuujin came up with together. When people praise "Ashirogi Muto" it's in effect praising them both. The manga is by Ashirogi Muto. Ashirogi Muto is 2 people.

On the other hand, a manga credited to "Nanamine Tooru" isn't really by Nanamine Tooru. It's by Nanamine Tooru + x number of other people who aren't credited or even acknowledged as even existing.

I hope I make sense. I'm not sure if my logic is coming across. It made sense in my head but I don't know if I'm getting it across in words -_-;

Another thing I've always wondered is, do people actually know that Ashirogi are 2 people? Nanamine didn't seem surprised that they were 2 people. If he hadn't know that Ashirogi was actually made up of a duo, when he was in his faked character I would think that he should have been going all "AMAAAAZZINNNG!! I DIDN'T KNOW ASHIROGI-SENSEI WAS 2 PEOPLE!!" or something like that...

[Evil Mind]

Pen names are to deflect credit from the actual author. In Ashirogi Muto case it's to avoid being recognized in High School like they where in Middle School. To argue that it's the same as Nanamine taking credit for the work of others is a straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). It ignores the fact that Nanamine is hated for take credit for other peoples work and that Ashirogi Muto never hide the fact they are a pair, and is a argument purely based on a singular name getting credit. What matters is what that name is attached to, in Nanamine's case even if he used a pen name he would be the only person attached to it.

EDIT: I think a better juxtaposition to Nanamine would be Fukuda helping Aoki with her ecchi story. I don't think she ever publicly credited Fukuda for the ideas and work he did help with but she didn't hide that she got help from Jump.

[Reclaimer]

Another thing I've always wondered is, do people actually know that Ashirogi are 2 people? Nanamine didn't seem surprised that they were 2 people. If he hadn't know that Ashirogi was actually made up of a duo, when he was in his faked character I would think that he should have been going all "AMAAAAZZINNNG!! I DIDN'T KNOW ASHIROGI-SENSEI WAS 2 PEOPLE!!" or something like that...
We don't see a lot of interaction between Ashirogi and fans, so we don't really know. Well, I don't know off the top of my head. I'd have to go back and read the whole series and see every time they were introduced to characters who were not assistants/editors/people they knew from school. That doesn't leave a lot of people...


Pen names are to deflect credit from the actual author. In Ashirogi Muto case it's to avoid being recognized in High School like they where in Middle School. To argue that it's the same as Nanamine taking credit for the work of others is a straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man).
Whose argument am I misrepresenting? Thats what committing a straw man fallacy is. (It also doesn't help that I'm asking questions more than making a point with this thread)



It ignores the fact that Nanamine is hated for take credit for other peoples work
I think the people here who "hate" him have absolutely no experience with the creative process and employ a double standard. Because, really, how exactly is he taking credit for people's ideas? Because it is being published with his name? Any time an editor provides advice, the author is taking credit for their ideas since the editor's name isn't being published as a co-author.



and that Ashirogi Muto never hide the fact they are a pair

They aren't announced as a pair, so they are, in fact, hiding it from those who don't actively look.


What matters is what that name is attached to, in Nanamine's case even if he used a pen name he would be the only person attached to it.
So, if he used a pen name to not publicly receive credit, he would still be a terrible person because he was stealing credit?



EDIT: I think a better juxtaposition to Nanamine would be Fukuda helping Aoki with her ecchi story. I don't think she ever publicly credited Fukuda for the ideas and work he did help with but she didn't hide that she got help from Jump.
She didn't hide it from Jump, but she hid it from the readers. And really, hiding stuff from readers is much worse than hiding stuff from editors.

[luffyg2]

You can't really say Eiji is in the same situation here... yeah he does not write the story but he doesn't get the credit for it either the same goes for Nakai too. As for Mashiro you say as long as people don't look they won't know it's 2 persons well as for Nanamine even if you research about the guy you won't ever know that x number of people wrote this because he is hiding this fact.. This is the main problem here the fact that he hide the fact that people are writing the story for him while i'm sure if you ask any of the mangaka in the manga they won't hide that they have an editor to help them or a partner to write or draw the manga

You also say that by not writing that they get help from editor and that the editor aren't credited for their idea, but it works the same way for normal book and if you credit to everybody who gave you an idea then the list of author could be very long, but the main idea and the story mainly come from the mangaka himself the editor are just here to help, not to write the story which is what those 50 people are doing

[basher]

Interesting Thread topic.


If we assume those to be true, how is Nanamine any different than Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural)? He is an artist drawing a manga from a script. Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural) aren't vilified by the people on this forum as cheaters because they have someone else write the series.

To me the difference between Nanamine and Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji is how they help. Eiji is the main artist and writer for Crow. He paid Nakai and Mashiro to work as assistants. They didn’t do any of the main characters. Just toning and inking. They got paid for the work they did. No misunderstandings there.

Mashiro and Fukuda helped Eiji is what a friend would do. They didn’t want to see Crow fail. They helped him once and told him that he needed to meet with his editor which he now does. I liked this because they helped a rival. I wouldn’t want to win over a rival who wasn’t at 100%. It wouldn’t be a real victory. This is why I think they helped and they are all part of team Fukuda . I think even Eiji told his editor that Mashiro and Fukuda helped that is why he now does names.

When all of team Fukuda looked at their scripts together they wanted to edit but didn’t. Since they didn’t edit their scripts it shouldn’t count. They are also in agreement. Also the editor department knew what they were going to do.

I don’t think Mashiro and Nakai touched +Natural because that is Iwase story. When did it happen? Nakai left before it came out if I remember correctly.

Now for Nanamine. Nanamine isn’t paying those who write the story or crediting them. My problem lies with that. Editors get paid to edit. They tell the mangaka to make changes that will help the story not dictate it like Nanamine does. Ch 119 pg 1 ( http://www.tenmangas.com/chapter/Bakuman119/232404/) His people wrote the "outstanding" and "interesting" parts. The 5 people only would receive food dictates how the people in the story react to it. Just reading this and the next page made me realize it played a significant role.

Not to mention the fact that he just takes what he thinks are the good parts of manga and puts them in his own like in Ch 118 pg 14. ( http://www.tenmangas.com/chapter/Bakuman118/231307-14.html)

I know that writers use others work for inspiration. The key is inspiration. We don’t “pluck out all the good qualities” as he said in the above link. It sounds like he is taking what he thinks is good and rearranging them for his own work. He does as you can see in Ch 119 pg 2. ( http://www.tenmangas.com/chapter/Bakuman119/232404-2.html ) This is plagiarism. We all know the definition of that.

I am not okay with him using so many people to help with his work. As far as I can tell he isn’t paying them and not giving them credit. I don’t know if they have any type of agreement until then I will continue to keep on thinking it isn’t his work. He shouldn’t take credit for it. He does 50 percent of the work because he draws it. The other 50 people come up with the storyline. He should only get half credit. I believe you should give credit where it is due.

Even Fukuda pays his friend to help come up with ideas for his manga when he is struggling. They are in agreement over that situation. I feel a little iffy on that situation. Does his editor know? But what can we do if his friend is 100% okay with the situation? It’s been a long time now and whenever they work together there aren’t any hard feelings. So I think it is safe to assume that he is okay with that situation. If Nanamine did this I wouldn’t dislike him as much. But 50 people is over kill.


Is it because Nanamine portrays his series as being written/drawn by a single person? Ashirogi Muto is a pen name which gives the impression that it is done by one person. (Hence Eiji's surprise/comment about how that explains why their work is so multi-layered.)

The situations are different. I agree with saladesu the fact that Nanamine wasn’t surprised that Ashirogi isn’t one person must be known to some people. Nanamine does point out the fact that Ashirogi was made out to be a 15 year old genus meaning only one. As seen in Ch 118 pg 14. ( http://www.tenmangas.com/chapter/Bakuman118/231307-14.html) He should have “faked” a surprise if anything. Ashirogi took a picture together for their 50th chapter and refused to take it separately because they are a unit. That picture should be out in the world. They are not trying to hide it like they did when they were younger. Plus the editor department used the 15 year old genus to sell more. Which is a perfect sagway into:


I get the feeling that people disliked his promotional methods (which were absolutely brilliant) and thus are predisposed to feel negatively against him in all regards.

To me it was a little of his promotional methods that made me dislike him but the fact that he uses so many people to help and claim credit is my problem. I don’t do underhand things like this anymore because if you get caught then you deserve the punishment. He wanted to get published. He did what he thought was best. I don’t like it. Nothing I can do but still dislike him more.

Editor departments for magazine do underhand things to sell more. We expect that. They are selling a product they must make it appealing. (Offhand rant comment but I HATE it when 98% of the movies out there the trailer is completely out of context for the movie. :mad times infinite. Urg it just pisses me off. End rant) I would love to see a manga that EVERYONE wants to read and doesn’t need hype. We don’t except mangakas or writers to do underhand things to get published.


Interesting point - I never thought of it this way before. But the difference to me is this: Ashirogi Muto, while giving the impression that it is a single person, incorporates the names of both Saikou and Shuujin (and Azuki too but that's not so important). It's something that both Saikou and Shuujin came up with together. When people praise "Ashirogi Muto" it's in effect praising them both. The manga is by Ashirogi Muto. Ashirogi Muto is 2 people.

On the other hand, a manga credited to "Nanamine Tooru" isn't really by Nanamine Tooru. It's by Nanamine Tooru + x number of other people who aren't credited or even acknowledged as even existing.

I hope I make sense. I'm not sure if my logic is coming across. It made sense in my head but I don't know if I'm getting it across in words -_-;

Made perfect sense to me. xD For all we know Obha could be a team. But I doubt it.


EDIT: I think a better juxtaposition to Nanamine would be Fukuda helping Aoki with her ecchi story. I don't think she ever publicly credited Fukuda for the ideas and work he did help with but she didn't hide that she got help from Jump.

I don’t really have a problem with this. Makes me feel iffy though. For one they have an agreement. They want to make each other better mangakas so it makes sense to help each other out. Even when Aoki calls Takagi for advice. Agreement. Can’t do anything about. Even when Mashiro was okay when Aoki used his and Azuki love situation for a manga. I don’t like it a little (feel iffy same thing) but can’t do anything about it cuz they are in agreement.

My problem with Nanamine is nothing is known. He is underhanded. I probably will like him more if him and his editors have an agreement.


We don't see a lot of interaction between Ashirogi and fans, so we don't really know. Well, I don't know off the top of my head. I'd have to go back and read the whole series and see every time they were introduced to characters who were not assistants/editors/people they knew from school. That doesn't leave a lot of people...

Hard to decide if people know or not. Since they are not hiding it I think people can find the information if they look hard enough.


I think the people here who "hate" him have absolutely no experience with the creative process and employ a double standard.

I think that’s a wrong statement. It’s because people do understand the creative process. Well at least for me it applies. It is plagiarizing what he is doing. He takes others work and ideas to create his work. As a writer it makes me dislike him a lot. Every time I struggle with something on my own I get disgusted by him even more. I struggle to get better. He just asks for ideas from people who “like” his series. I have enough respect for other Authors and pride enough in my work to not do this. I rather have something 100% mine and fail then be actually 50% mine and be successful. It’s a good thing that it is in a manga because it wouldn’t work out in real life. Lawsuits would happen.


Because, really, how exactly is he taking credit for people's ideas? Because it is being published with his name? Any time an editor provides advice, the author is taking credit for their ideas since the editor's name isn't being published as a co-author.

Editor gets paid to make a change that’s their job. We all know this and accept it. It is how a book or manga or comic gets published. Editors don’t change the story. Even Miura suggested to Ashirogi to create Tanto but he didn’t tell them how to write the story. They are supposed to enhance the story. Ashirogi was so moved by Miura’s research on Gag manga is why they made one. Yes it was a wrong choose for them but I think it will help them with their future mangas.


She didn't hide it from Jump, but she hid it from the readers. And really, hiding stuff from readers is much worse than hiding stuff from editors.

I think it equal for both. A manga editor is an editor because they are also manga readers. Shouldn’t they feel worse because they met and trusted the person?

Yep luffy, editors are supposed to help not write the story.

[Kaname Fujiwara]

Personally, I don't think that what Nanamine did is wrong. He didn't plagiarize the work- he absorbs the elements and essence of others and make it his own by adding his own style along. If you think about it every manga artist and editor is in their way doing what Nanamine is doing and from a legal stand point there is nothing wrong with with it because no person actually "owns" a concept. It's like saying a manga copies Naruto whenever there is a ninja around or ne piece whenever there are pirates.

Thank you. ;)

[Evil Mind]

Whose argument am I misrepresenting? Thats what committing a straw man fallacy is. (It also doesn't help that I'm asking questions more than making a point with this thread)

I know you didn't miss it...


It ignores the fact that Nanamine is hated for take credit for other peoples work and that Ashirogi Muto never hide the fact they are a pair, and is a argument purely based on a singular name getting credit. What matters is what that name is attached to, in Nanamine's case even if he used a pen name he would be the only person attached to it.

The statement you misrepresent is the one you question the reason we dislike Nanamine. You present it as an issue of public representation (Nanamine's name vs a pen name). You say we don't like him just because of the name used for credit. I feel that can be omitted along with who collaborated. Nanamine is taking credit in a professional way, as long as the 50 others are happy (they seen to be) then I'm feel fine with it too. I say this because as a product the ends justify the means in creating manga. But that's not the nature of the argument in the manga nor mine. It's professional pride (the ends justify the means) vs intellectual pride (creating something that's an expression of you). You could also call it mass production vs hand craftsmanship.

The way I envision Nanamine's method can be presented as such...

Nanamine gets an assignment, in this argument a test for homework. Nanamine give the test to his friends to answer. When they finish (with or without his input) he take the answered test and recopies it with his own handwriting and phrasing. Then turns it in. As a finial product his work is great, answers all the questions and everyone is happy.

In a business sense this works well (who care how it's made as long as we can sell it) but some will still view it as intellectually dishonest. That my complain about the method and I believe its Ashirogi Muto as well. We wanted to see Nanamine's work not the work of those 50 people so we are disappointed. It's not that his way is wrongful, it's just a pride of mass production vs hand craftsmanship.

You see that's the argument I think you misrepresented.



I don’t really have a problem with this. Makes me feel iffy though. For one they have an agreement. They want to make each other better mangakas so it makes sense to help each other out. Even when Aoki calls Takagi for advice. Agreement. Can’t do anything about. Even when Mashiro was okay when Aoki used his and Azuki love situation for a manga. I don’t like it a little (feel iffy same thing) but can’t do anything about it cuz they are in agreement.

My problem with Nanamine is nothing is known. He is underhanded. I probably will like him more if him and his editors have an agreement.

I thought this made a good argument, why do we accept Aoki getting help vs Nanamine getting help. I see this as a better example of my own hypocrisy with the intellectual pride view point. I tried to justify it to myself as a "Teach a man to fish vs give a man a fish" idea. Aoki was learning these ideas, Nanamine is being given these ideas.

[saladesu]

Personally, I don't think that what Nanamine did is wrong. He didn't plagiarize the work- he absorbs the elements and essence of others and make it his own by adding his own style along. If you think about it every manga artist and editor is in their way doing what Nanamine is doing and from a legal stand point there is nothing wrong with with it because no person actually "owns" a concept. It's like saying a manga copies Naruto whenever there is a ninja around or ne piece whenever there are pirates.

Thank you. ;)

He isn't taking just concepts. If he was just absorbing the "best" (or what he thought of as) of various manga that he liked and adding his own flavour and putting it together into a manga, that's not so bad. The problem here is that he's blatantly taking the ideas of others and putting them directly into his story.

You are right in saying that no one owns a concept - Nabari no Ou is not called a rip-off of Naruto just because it has Ninjas. Neither is Vagabond called a rip-off of Rurouni Kenshin just because it has samurai. (sorry, I don't know other examples of pirate manga for me to use for a One Piece example, lol) It's not just the concept like "an omnipotent being forcing people to speak the truth". He's directly taking plot points and situations from his online advisors. All he does is filter what he thinks might not be appropriate (like the one about the guy wanting to rape the girl).


I tried to justify it to myself as a "Teach a man to fish vs give a man a fish" idea. Aoki was learning these ideas, Nanamine is being given these ideas.

I agree. Even when Fukuda was helping Aoki, he wasn't doing the stuff for her, he was teaching her and telling her how to improve in general and not feeding her an entire plot or situations to use. This isn't so good an example though, since Fukuda was only helping with the panty shots part...

[basher]

I agree. Even when Fukuda was helping Aoki, he wasn't doing the stuff for her, he was teaching her and telling her how to improve in general and not feeding her an entire plot or situations to use. This isn't so good an example though, since Fukuda was only helping with the panty shots part...

Second to agree. How about when Takagi helped Shiratori learn to write Rabuta on his own? Takagi got credit...um...Takagi helped Aoki with some boy info. He didn't get credit for that.

[saladesu]

Takagi was credited for the one-shot, but for the actual series his name was taken off the credits for Rabuta & Peace.

Sometimes mangaka consult experts for help with certain stuff so that their manga are more realistic. They don't always publicly credit/acknowledge it though. I think what Aoki did with Takagi is similar.

But what's different with what Nanamine is doing, as I've said before, is that he's taking whole ideas from others and plonking it into his own story and passing it off as his own. It's not the same as getting some pointers or tips from experts in the field (well since Takagi is a guy, he's more of an expert on guy stuff than Aoki, no? :p).

[Nefnora]

If we assume those to be true, how is Nanamine any different than Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural)? He is an artist drawing a manga from a script. Mashiro/Nakai/Eiji (for +Natural) aren't vilified by the people on this forum as cheaters because they have someone else write the series.

Alright, I'll try to pen my opinion on this matter down. I've read the replies of the others, but I'd like to take a slightly different route. I'd like to answer it with a question:

Would Nanamine have been able to create an equally good manga without the 50?

Everything we've read about him suggests he isn't capable of doing so. It was mentioned multiple times the 'best ideas' came from the 50 rather than from Nanamine himself. Besides, if he was able to do it, why even ask those 50? Everything suggests he's a mediocre author at best.

Artists & writers
True, Mashiro, Eiji and Nakai drew based on a script written by someone else. But those writers were properly credited and paid*. If those teams are formed again, there is no reason not to assume they'll be able to create a manga just as great **. Their success is genuinely theirs.

Help
And yes, it is also absolutely true the mangakas have helped each other out on multiple occasions. But that was also the limit of it. A hint or tip here and there and that was it. The success of their manga was still their own, even if they needed a little nudge in the right direction.

Editors
Editors you say? Well, yes, they also provide input. No denying there. Thing is, as others pointed out, its their job to do so. Their name won't be on the manga itself, their paycheck is definitely theirs.
Even if we assume there are editors who do far more than their fair share of work on a manga, without being credited (and there probably are)... Does this mean Nanamine's actions are acceptable, or does it mean that the mangakas of said editors should get a nice, hard kick up their butts too?

Conclusion
Nanamine believes all he's doing is using their ideas they offered voluntarily. In a way, it's true. What is also true is that Nanamine is just riding on the backs of others. Without them, he would be nowhere and his twisted sense of professionalism won't even allow him to realize it. He needs their input, just to stay affloat, and yet isn't even willing to credit them. He is not just using their ideas, he is - literally - using the people offering them as well.

There is a fine line between 'accepting help' and 'abusing help' no self-respecting author/mangaka/etc should ever be willing to cross.

THAT is my beef with the guy.


* Yes, it's safe to assume 'the bakuman world' knows Ashirogi Muto is a team. Their photo was taken and they've never hidden it. Don't underestimate the power the internet and fandom hold, especially those two combined. And even then, how does this change the fact Nanamine is (ab)using people?
** Aoki would probably fry Nakai rather than team up with him again, but that's besides the point.