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View Full Version : Ulquiorra Cifer vs Wonderweiss Margela



igotthegoods
February 18, 2011, 12:58 AM
Ulquiorra vs. Wonderweiss

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14105.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Ulquiorra

The Fourth (Cuatra) Espada and the only to explicitly exhibit a second stage of Resurrección. He was trusted the role of watching over Las Noches as Aizen fought on the front in Fake Karakura Town. Although he appears reserved and calm in appearance, his power is the complete opposite and he rains terror on his opponents with his Resurrección, Murciélago. Not only does he possess enhanced high-speed regeneration in this state, but his Cero Oscuras and Lanza del Relámpago give him enough power to wipe out everything around him.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Wonderweiss

While not an Espada, Wonderweiss is ranked in the same class of spiritual energy as the group. The child-like, virtually autistic arrancar has had almost all of his mental faculties removed by Aizen Sōsuke all for the purpose of enhancing his power and strength. In addition to having highly developed hollow abilities, he can emit a powerful battle cry that can be used for offense, defense, and even to control the entity known as Fūrā.Typically fighting unarmed, he also can release a zanpakutō, Extinguir, and resurrección, which allows him to seal the fiery power of Gotei 13 Commander Yamamoto's Ryūjin Jakka, allows for high-speed regeneration and the production of multiple extensible arms, and enhances his strength and hierro.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Takahashi
February 20, 2011, 11:58 PM
WW.

For one, I don't believe that Ulq was above the rest of the Espada simply because of his second release. I also don't believe that Aizen didn't know about his release either, the guy knew everything, he even knew when Szayel was secretly collecting data from the dead Privaron Espada.

On top of that, we have no comparable proof to say how much stronger Ulq got from his second release. He went from kicking Ichigo's ass, to kicking Ichigo's ass.

That being said, we don't have any confirmation as to how powerful WW was either. However, he still beat Bankai (and possibly masked) Kensei, one shotted captain tuberculosis (although how much of a feat that is is questionable). It is still implied that he was above Stark. Well, depending on how you interpret Stark's reaction to him.

With superior HSR, and insane speed, I'd say he'd beat Ulq more often than not.

ninjabot
February 21, 2011, 12:14 AM
WW takes it. It'd hardly be a stomp though, based on the fact that WW fails at fighting. He pretty much just took every hit launched him by everyone that launched one (when he was fighting seriously I mean) and high speed regeneration isn't free. It likely drains a good deal of reiatsu with each time it heals. Likewise, Ulqiorra's Segunda Etappa doesnt place him over all the Espada, but it's enough to recognize he's alot stronger than his rank would imply.

Still, his healing seems stronger than Ulqiorra's, or atleast faster. And he's likely faster and stronger to the point that his absent minded nature couldn't be seriously taken advantage of. I mean, after Ulq's ripped in two he can sneak behind and stab him in the back of the head with a light lance ala how he stopped Ichigonator, but that seems like grasping for straws.

SaintSheik
February 21, 2011, 12:21 AM
WW GMV. It is kind of hard to base that off of much considering that both showed some of their better moments against some ridiculously powerful opponents. But considering the fact that both have HSR, Ulquiorra himself (Kubo) said that his strong point was his regenerative skills, not his attack power. In the case of Wonderweiss, he was literally designed to face off against the most powerful zanpaktou in the series.

Playing by plot points if Ulquiorra was above Wonderweiss, then Aizen would probably modify him to assist the top three Espada. That and we have to assume that Wonderweiss defeated an ex-Vaizard captain using bankai and it's hard to believe that Ulquiorra could do the same, let alone do more damage to the Captain Commander than Wonderweiss did.

Omiem
February 21, 2011, 12:28 AM
Wonderweiss will most likely have the strength advantage here seeing how went up against Yamamoto's strength. Speed-wise, I'll give the slight advantage to WW due to blitzing Ukitake. Endurance wise, WW seems to have the edge seeing how he tanked one of Yamamoto's punch with no signs of pain(with regeneration of course). Ulquiorra's only means of critically injuring WW is with Lanza, but if he can't even hit a stationary target, then his odds of landing it on WW are really against him here. So yeah, Ulquiorra loses most of the time in this match up.

El Samurai Guapo
February 21, 2011, 01:00 AM
Ulquiorra easily. In R1 the dude was so quick that hollowfied Ichigo couldn't even react to his speed. His R1 cero oscuras completely wiped out Ichigo's hollowfication and did critical damage. Of course R2 would be much deadlier with superior speed, power, and reiatsu. Wonderwiess stands around a lot (just like Ichigonator), and since Ulquiorra barely missed that shot with his lanza del relampago, it's certainly possible that he'd hit Wondy on the second throw.

Ulquiorra also has HSR; maybe not as good as the HSR Wondy has, but the only thing he can't regenerate are his internal organs. I doubt WW punching Ulquiorra a bunch of times is going to destroy his organs, whereas WW won't be regenerating from being decapitated by Ulquiorra's melee lanza.

Takahashi
February 21, 2011, 01:08 AM
Ulquiorra easily. In R1 the dude was so quick that hollowfied Ichigo couldn't even react to his speed. His R1 cero oscuras completely wiped out Ichigo's hollowfication and did critical damage. Of course R2 would be much deadlier with superior speed, power, and reiatsu. Wonderwiess stands around a lot (just like Ichigonator), and since Ulquiorra barelymissed that shot with his lanza del relampago, it's certainly possible that he'd hit Wondy on the second throw.

All depends on what you think of Ichigo I guess. I thinking beating Bankai Kensei is a much more impressive feat personally. The Lanza has never seemed all that great either, at long range it's next to useless, and at close range we don't even know it's power in relation to anyone but an indeterminable power.


Ulquiorra also has HSR; maybe not as good as the HSR Wondy has, but the only thing he can't regenerate are his internal organs. I doubt WW punching Ulquiorra a bunch of times is going to destroy his organs, whereas WW won't be regenerating from being decapitated by Ulquiorra's melee lanza.

I think WW's Gatling Gun punch attack would be sufficient. At the very least it would overwhelm Ulq enough to not give him an easy CQC Lanza attack.

El Samurai Guapo
February 21, 2011, 01:14 AM
All depends on what you think of Ichigo I guess. I thinking beating Bankai Kensei is a much more impressive feat personally. The Lanza has never seemed all that great either, at long range it's next to useless, and at close range we don't even know it's power in relation to anyone but an indeterminable power.



I think WW's Gatling Gun punch attack would be sufficient. At the very least it would overwhelm Ulq enough to not give him an easy CQC Lanza attack.

- Defeating bankai Kensei actually is a better feat than beating Ichigo. It's a better feat than defeating anyone in the gotei 13 too; problem is I don't believe it happened.

- Wonderwiess's gatling punch would give Ulquiorra damage that he couldn't regenerate from exactly how? His fists aren't swords, they won't be stabbing him and reaching his internal organs. WW is also not Yamamoto, he can't punch someone and have them crumble apart.

Takahashi
February 21, 2011, 01:17 AM
- Defeating bankai Kensei actually is a better feat than beating Ichigo. It's a better feat than defeating anyone in the gotei 13 too; problem is I don't believe it happened.

- Wonderwiess's gatling punch would give Ulquiorra damage that he couldn't regenerate from exactly how? His fists aren't swords, they won't be stabbing him and reaching his internal organs. WW is also not Yamamoto, he can't punch someone and have them crumble apart.

Well, I could try to answer part 2 there, but considering in part 1 you said it didn't happen, I obviously can't convince you.

Don't need to get in a whole thing here, but out of curiosity, if you did believe WW beat Kensei, would you say he beats Ulq?

Random101
February 21, 2011, 01:28 AM
Wonderwiess. Better Regen, in that he can even regen organs, better offensive, in that GOOD FREAKING LUCK avoiding those massive number of hyperfast extendo arms, cero negation, though admittedly how potent is up for grabs, and the fact that Ulquiorra can't hit a goddamn stationary target with the one shot he really has puts odds heavily against him to say the least.

That being said, Ulquiorra might be able to take advantage of intelligence here. Though he's not as calculating as people like to make him out to be, his only fight of any kind of merit blew that out of the goddamn water, he's certainly no moron either. That he's a ranged fighter will help. Not much given those arms extend really far and are really fast, and are REALLY REALLY numerous, and he can't aim the lance for crap, but it's certainly better than going CQC. Feats and abilities may be against him, but his chances certainly aren't anywhere near zero. Wonderwiess is admittedly variable himself too so how the cards will fall will decide it.

Though if he actually brings his A-game Wonderwiess has my vote in a freaking heartbeat. Otherwise it's much closer but still leaned in his favor.

ninjabot
February 21, 2011, 01:50 AM
Wait, what happened to Kensei if WW didn't put him down? I always assumed the fact that WW was already released when coming for Yamamoto meant that he released inorder to finish Kensei.

The only thing I can think of is that WW simply left when Yama powered up, which left him to tend to Mashiro.

Random101
February 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
Which in itself I don't buy. There's a perfectly good healer, two in fact, right over there and she wasn't that bad off, even assuming Kensei can heal. If he didn't do jack against bare minimum Gin and let Ichigo take on Aizen then he's a complete and utter coward who basically stood by and let Aizen win with no resistence every bit as much as Ichigo did.

And I actually like Kensei so I refuse to buy that. I would hold that there are other reasons for him to have been downed, like Gin actually goddamn doing something despite having been basically standing there the whole time from what we saw, but him being actually downed via some means is a forgone conclusion at this point. Anything else doesn't remotely fly in more ways than one.

xXan
February 21, 2011, 01:57 AM
Defenetly going with Ulquiorra here. Lanza del rampago FTW. The only thing WW has to his name (good feat) is that Kensei win BUT that is off panel and i am not going to make a big deal out of it. Now Ulquiorra was fast enough to completly own masked Ichi in lvl 1...

Oh end i definitely don't think Kensei>Ichigo.

WW is going to end up missing his head(regenerate that!):
http://www.mangareader.net/94-799-19/bleach/chapter-345.html

Way, way faster then masked, bankai Ichigo:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-800-2/bleach/chapter-346.html

Yes U wins here.

Edit: People going on with Kensei.. Kensei would lose to lvl 2 U just as well as Ichigo.

El Samurai Guapo
February 21, 2011, 02:00 AM
Well, I could try to answer part 2 there, but considering in part 1 you said it didn't happen, I obviously can't convince you.

Don't need to get in a whole thing here, but out of curiosity, if you did believe WW beat Kensei, would you say he beats Ulq?

If I had seen him beat Kensei, yeah, I would.

Takahashi
February 21, 2011, 02:03 AM
If I had seen him beat Kensei, yeah, I would.

Alrighty then. Clearly we're never going to agree on the whole "Did Kensei lose to WW?" thing. At least IF you thought the same as me in that way, we'd be agreeing, I'll take it :amuse

Darkp
February 21, 2011, 02:19 AM
I will go with WW , he has the ability negate cero like energy atacks which is putting WW at an advantage against ulquiorra .

xXan
February 21, 2011, 02:31 AM
I will go with WW , he has the ability negate cero like energy atacks which is putting WW at an advantage against ulquiorra .

I really don't remember him doing that. Can you show me where it happened?

Takahashi
February 21, 2011, 02:35 AM
I really don't remember him doing that. Can you show me where it happened?

AAAAAAAH!!!!

That's the secret.

Seriously though, he did it against Mashiro, and I believe one other time against Kisuke's Benehime GT

kkck
February 21, 2011, 02:45 AM
Not sure if wonderweiss would be able to negate ceros stronger than those of mashiro though. Ulquiorra's should be dramatically more powerful than mashiro's. Personally I think bankai ichigo has the regular physical capacities a captain normally does. That is why in bankai he could keep up with grimmjow's base form and his speed was allowed him to hold his ground against gin. In that sense, ulquiorra is probably among the more physically capable espada regardless of his rank. Segunda etapa should put him even above that. I have to lean towards ulquiorra here. I don't think WW without abilities, who has no intelligence and his abilities other than sealing RJ were not all that impressive, would be able to handle the speed and sheer destructive power ulquiorra has. He would have trouble but he only has to connect a hit with lanza IMO. Even if hard to control it is not like he can't use as many as he likes. Even when he did not have organs he was able to muster the power to use it so he virtually has as many chances as he can possibly want. There should be a limit to how much wonderweiss can regenerate.....

Darkp
February 21, 2011, 02:58 AM
I really don't remember him doing that. Can you show me where it happened?

He did negate mashiro's cero with scream as takahashi answered, maybe same can be said against toshiro's ice to free harribel cause he used scream again at there too .

AlB
February 21, 2011, 03:14 AM
Maybe WW did not beat Kensei, but he took Yama's Ikkotsu and regenerated so fast he was able to recover several seconds later.
HSR - point to WW

Ulquiorra R1 was not much faster than Ichigo. he was certainly very much faster in R2. but this (http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/08) shows how much faster WW really is. He stopped Yama's fist from connecting with Aizen's jaw and just look at the distance between the two!
Speed - point to WW

You don't send freaking Captain-Commander flying with your bare hands if you are not some kind of an abnormal beast! Trashing Vizards Ichigo is a feat, but I'd say sending Yamamoto flying and even scratching him is much more of a feat.
Strength - point to WW

Ulquiorra vs WW: Cero and Lanza del Relampago
WW screams. The End.
His scream negated a strongest Bankai technique from Hitsugaya, I don't see why the kid would not have enough reiatsu to negate Ulquiorra's Ceroes and LAnza.

freshseth83
February 21, 2011, 03:31 AM
ww wins this one. Ulquiorra would give him a good fight sealed in R1. WW seems to eat any attack bar sokotsu. Only yama's double bone finished him. It pulverized him to shreds to the point he couldn't regenerate any longer. Ulqiorra would have to use cero oscuras at least 3 times in a row to vaporize him. His lance would work if it were to hit, but his aim was off because of the power it contained. That says a lot. If Ulquiorra can't control it very good, what use will it be vs. someone with speed that rivals the best there is? Ulqui's speed is up there too, but Ichigo is hardly a basis to go by. His power levels are so all over the place so it's hard to judge where he was against Ulq. I think WW has anything there is to win here and more.

Truu
February 21, 2011, 04:05 AM
Though I hate both of them, but WW still takes this.

What he did with kensei, mashiro and ukitake is more than enough proof to me that he is the stronger one.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 07:24 AM
WW will win. Ulquiorra is only number 4, even in his R2.
It was already said that Wondy negated Cero and Hitsugaya's Bankai tecnique that should have killed Harribel.
WW showed damn great speed to save Aizen's face from Yama's fist and his sheer fisical power was enough to send Yama flying. Of course Yama might be caught off guard, but still.
Also Wondy's regen was the strongest among Arrancars. He could recover from one-handed hit from Yama.:)
Also Wondy took out two Captains (one of them Vaizard)

Gran Maestro
February 21, 2011, 08:45 AM
I've already stated my opinion about this match-up, I'll quote myself:


Actually Starrk said "The fact that WW is here means that Aizen can't wait any longer". If WW wasn't strong enough to defeat tough opposition (the opposition that Top 3 espada had trouble against), if WW was there for Yamamoto and Yamamoto only, how would things get any quicker? It wasn't as if Yamamoto was actively involved in the battle and burning the espada before WW came to the rescue.

"Vastly superior" would be an overstatement but IMO WW was definitely stronger than Starrk. He was there to seal the flames but he defeated Ukitake, Mashiro and Kensei before doing his real job. Even though Kensei released his bankai with upmost seriousness against WW, Aizen wasn't concerned a bit that Kensei could have defeated his trump card.

WW vs Ulquiorra will be an interesting match-up. I think Ulquiorra R2 was on par with Harribel, so IMO WW is the obvious winner. WW can dodge Ulquiorra's CO or simply negate it by using his scream, Ulquiorra's LDR won't be hitting WW and in CQC WW can simply overpower Ulquiorra with his much better HSR and many arms.

WW wins.

UchihaHunter
February 21, 2011, 09:43 AM
I was hoping this would be a better debate (and that I'd be on the side opposite of Samurai), but considering that neither is the case, I'll just say I voted for Ulquiorra and accept that WW will win (which I guess is deserved, hahahaha)

However:

@A|B R1 Ulquiorra was indeed way faster than Ichigo...dude couldn't even react to his initial attack...and I definitely believe that up until when Ichigo changed, Ulquiorra was more concerned with causing Ichigo to give up hope than with actually defeating him.

And about Ichigo's power levels...Ichigo was definitely stronger post-Grimmjaw fight than he was pre-Grimmjaw fight. We saw the improvement; Ulquiorra noted it, and adjusted accordingly. Ulquiorra is plenty smart, also has regen, and if you knock Ulquiorra down and turn around to leave, he will sneak attack you, lol

I could see Ulquiorra winning the fight; remember that he can use LDR in CQC as well. I find it hard to believe that WW can inflict the sort of damage necessary to negate Ulquiorra's HSR.

Xerneas
February 21, 2011, 10:00 AM
I already stated my belief in his previous match that WW was Aizen's strongest Arrancar. Dominating a Visored Ichigo who was nowhere near as strong as he should have been (while having your own powers boosted by the surroundings) and lasting more than two panels against freaking Yamamoto, without any such advantage, are in two massively different classes altogether.

I just don't see how Ulquiorra is gonna hurt WW. First of all he's gonna be a lot weaker because they are fighting in a neutral environment, while WW's power won't decrease from the manga showings. Then he can't control his Lanza and WW is certainly fast enough to dodge it anyway. He may be retarded but he still has battle sense, as we saw when he smashed Mashiro's mask. He's not gonna stand there and get hit by an attack he knows could finish him. He had no chance to avoid Double Bone but this is another story. And....thats about it for Ulquiorra. When he wields Lanza like his normal javelins it doesn't pack the same punch, and beyond that he has nothing to damage WW on the kind of scale that would kill him. Yamamoto shattered the guy into a million pieces to get rid of him.

On the other hand I don't see Ulquiorra getting up from too many of the punches that sent Yamamoto flying into town and caused minor damage. Which is impressive considering its the same guy that, y'know, tanked a multi-town-destroying blast. Its gonna take a while because of his HSR, but eventually WW will wear him down and then overwhelm him. Powerscaling makes the outcome of this match pretty obvious, if you ask me.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 10:02 AM
I'm going with Ulquiorra here...I don't know if speed-wise there's a difference, but Lanza del Relampago is very powerful and Ulqui showed that he has the reiatsu to launch it several times, then regenerate, do some Cero Oscuras...
WW showed great durability and nice attacks as well...

But in this matchup I think that Ulquiorra's intelligence combined with Lanza del Relampago will grant him victory...his much too analytical not to devise a good tactic against WW...and he has the move to finish him off...

UchihaHunter
February 21, 2011, 10:23 AM
I agree with you to a certain degree, Serenade, but didn't Ichigo get somewhat of a boost from being in HM as well? I thought Ishida said that even shinigami get a bit of a boost from being in a spiritually rich environment...

Either way, Ichigo was operating at pretty much max capacity at the time (as far as his HM battles go) and Ulquiorra tanked that BGT like it was literally nothing...he's definitely smarter than WW, and like I said, he takes whatever opportunities present themselves...I actually think that is how Ulquiorra is going to win this; you have to actually take him out completely to beat him. Even after getting his organs blown away, he still fired off a LDR at Ichigo. Dude has durability to the extreme, and is heartless enough to pull Shunsui-like cheap shots, lol

Xerneas
February 21, 2011, 10:35 AM
Well hey I never said he has zero chance to hurt WW or anything. I just can't see Lanza (which is the only attack he has that can put down WW for good) connecting. It would be a match of durability and endurance and he gets beat in both. And yes Ichigo's power (Hollow power that is) was boosted but he still wasn't as strong as he should be. In this match we have to scale back our perceptions of Ulquiorra too cause he was fighting at his absolute peak. Hollows and Quincy get a big power boost fighting in HM. Look how much Chad developed and the kind of moves Ishida was able to pull off. This is part of the problem when people try to put Ulq above the top 3 Espada. Starrk would be scary over there. Just one of his ceros would get a huge power increase...now imagine 20 coming at once. Bottom line is Ulquiorra is not above them and he's not above WW...

Bleda
February 21, 2011, 10:45 AM
Ulquiorra with his second release would own WW. Considering WW has no brains and not particular power to speak of except endurance.

g0dzax
February 21, 2011, 10:46 AM
I shall also go with Ulquiorra.Definitely,Ichigo gained more power after the fight with Grimmjow,since he himself stated that before he couldn't even see Ulquiorra nor react to his moves.So,Ichigo wasn't all that weak.I'll focus on Ulquiorra though.My reasons for voting him:
-unlike WW,he's got brains,and what's more.he's actually using his brains;
-he seemed to be the only Espada Aizen "trusted";
-he (although being no.4)acts in front of Yammy(unreleased of course)as if Yammy is somekind of a subordinate,I doubt Ulquiorra is cocky,I think he knows that he can overwhelm Yammy even when he releases;also Ulquiorra didn't even hesitate to struck Yammy so he can create the Garganta(also,Yammy is known to quickly be angered,but he wasn't angered by the fact that Ulquiorra struck him);
-he completely and utterly owned Bankai and Masked Ichigo while in R1;
-we can speculate about his power all we want,but this is sure: Bankai Masked Ichigo ain't a weakling,and he was getting owned and Ulquiorra was just playing with him;
-if I were to gauge his power against WW I'd do it equally and without any advantage over WW :
-WW (possibly) won against a bankai Kensei,whose power we can't gauge since we don't know his powers;
-Ulq won against a bankai masked Ichigo,whose power should be close,if not even greater than Kensei's;
-Ulquiorra has R2,but since he was already owning Ichigo in R1,we can only speculate about R2,but it must be REALLY powerfull if it forced Ichigo to become a full hollow;
-the full hollow must have had IMMENSE strength,if not the same strength as post-dangai Ichigo,so he MUST have been more powerful than CC;
-Ulquiorra managed to regen even after his lower body part got pulverized;
-WW showed also quite remarkable HSR;
-Ulquiorra has brains and he'll use them against something that doesn't think,speaks or smth else;
-that's all;

So,I'm going with Ulquiorra.

Snake_Cowboy
February 21, 2011, 11:21 AM
While I would normally vote for Wonderweiss against most opponents, I can actually see Ulquiorra pulling off a victory here.

Once Wonderweiss releases, he would definitely need his Segunda Etapa. In terms of sheer power, Wonderweiss would still be superior, but Ulquiorra would proceed cautiously. While Wonderweiss, on the whole is faster, Ulquiorra is one of the faster among the Espada as well; I just have a hard time picturing him being caught by Wonderweiss's many arms. This, along with him still being the high-speed regenerator expert of the Espada, gives me the impression that Ulquiorra would last a while, even against Wonderweiss.

But most important of all, his analytical nature gives me the impression that, when outmatched, he would come up with a plan, avoid Wonderweiss, and look for the right opportunity to strike with his Lanza del Relampago. Wonderweiss, though extremely dangerous, is still very stupid as well and vulnerable to a trap. Ulquiorra may only be the #4 Espada, but that thing was still one of the most powerful attacks we've yet seen in Bleach. With an explosion of that size, I'm not sure if even Wonderweiss can regenerate and even if he can, Ulquiorra can fire more than one, if necessary. If Ulquiorra manages to hit Wonderweiss in the head, then he's screwed.

With his combination of smarts, speed, durability (because of his regeneration) and high attack power (thanks to his Lanza) and because of Wonderweiss not being the sharpest tool in the shed, I think Ulquiorra has all the necessary ingredients to pull out a victory. While it will certainly be difficult for him, I'm giving this one to Ulquiorra.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 12:31 PM
If Ulquiorra wins this fight it would be like when people are going with Byakuya when he goes against Yama.
I understand that people can like Ulquiorra, but he himself stated that he is nowhere near the top 3 Espada and neither of them was near Yama. Wondy on the other hand managed to send Yama flying and even hurt him a bit. He tanked his One Bone attack that could have shattered someone of Byakuya's level.
Wondy has the best high speed regen ans is one of the fastest characters so far.

Yes, he is dumb, but so was Hollow Ichigo that defeated Ulquiorra, so don't misjudge his level of power because of his dumbness. He took Ukitake and Kensei (he was even in Bankai and maybe with mask) who are clear above Ulquiorra, so there isn't any chance for Ulquiorra. Also we should take in consideration reiatsu level and Wondy's is clearly above Ulquiorra's.

AlB
February 21, 2011, 12:46 PM
^ Exactly. In Bleach, if one possesses overwhelming reiatsu, speed, regenerative ability, brute strength that are superior to the opponent, then no matter what strategies or maneuvers are implemented by this opponent one will still emerge victorious. One of the best examples would be Urahara/Yoruichi/Isshin vs Aizen. It was basically 3 on 1, yet Aizen still tanked through them due to his unimaginable superiority. WW is unimaginably superior to Ulquiorra considering his track record. No matter what strategies Ulquiorra's brilliant mind might come up with will be futile against a fighter of Wondyboy's level.

kkck
February 21, 2011, 12:49 PM
Wonderweiss managed that against an unarmed yamamoto, that is not nearly the same thing as fighting armed yamamoto. Heck, yamamoto was even caught off guard due to his zampakuto deactivating, wonderweiss never sent anyone flying when yamamoto was ready for him. I also think it is a pretty big assumption to say kensei was actually defeated. We did not see their fight and we didn't even see kensei with the other vizards after aizen was defeated. Just because wonderweiss went to fight yamamoto does not mean kensei was defeated at all... It is possible kensei was defeated but the thing is that it is not a fact.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 12:58 PM
kkck
Even fighting unarmed Yama is enough.:) Even unarmed he can be better than plenty of Captains.:) His reiatsu only in that condition made Wondy piss his pants and then he crushed his soul in pises with Twin Bone even though he has the greatest regen.

I can agree that Kensei might not be defeated, but there is no other logical explanation why he didn't participate in the later actions if he wasn't taken down by Wondy. Also Wondy came released to fight Yama, so we can assume that Kensei made Wondy release his Zan to take him down. I like Kensei and I don't want to think that he ran from the battlefield, so the most logical explanation is that he was just defeated by Wondy.

Crystal Black
February 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
Wonderweiss would win with difficulties. Ulquiorra's only real way of hurting him is LDR. Cero Oscuras was powerful but I'm sure WW can negate that with probably his own ceros. Ulquiorra's main stength was regeneration but WW also had this and possibly to a higher level. Reiatsu, speed, strength all belongs to WW. There is nnot a single thing short of Lanza that will end Wonderweiss. I basically see him fighting Ulquiorra released in base alone. Ulquiorra is the smarter one here and would probably use that to his advantage. But instincts is what WW relies on and it will probably be hard to predict his movements much like how Ulquiorra was having difficulty with H2 Ichigo and Byakuya with hollow Ichigo. I see WW winning this.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 01:20 PM
Yep...WW only had the element of surprise, but he never really did anything other than that...he showed regeneration, but when Yama did the double bone, he shattered...now I don't think that any fight against Yama can be used as comparison, but that;s my point...one cannot judge the regeneration capabilities and speed between Ulqui and WW...and that's where intelligence and powerful attacks come into play...and for the record...WW never showed overwhelming reiatsu, quite the opposite of Ulquiorra whos R2 was revered as a sea of reiatsu...so I think that brute strength doesn't really matter, Ulqui can outmaneuver him, pretty easily...and we also know that Ulqui doesn't underestimate, so he will be serious from the start whereas WW's release was designed to counter Yamamoto...

I see no reiatsu, speed or power difference between the two...Ulqui can win with superior intelligence and LDR

El Samurai Guapo
February 21, 2011, 01:24 PM
Wonderweiss managed that against an unarmed yamamoto, that is not nearly the same thing as fighting armed yamamoto. Heck, yamamoto was even caught off guard due to his zampakuto deactivating, wonderweiss never sent anyone flying when yamamoto was ready for him. I also think it is a pretty big assumption to say kensei was actually defeated. We did not see their fight and we didn't even see kensei with the other vizards after aizen was defeated. Just because wonderweiss went to fight yamamoto does not mean kensei was defeated at all... It is possible kensei was defeated but the thing is that it is not a fact.

Don't forget he'd also just been stabbed through the torso by Aizen too. In any case, Yamamoto's not so godly that simply tossing him (yet literally doing no damage) is a big enough feat to say he's one of the stronger arrancar. I do think Kensei was defeated, but I don't think it was by Wonderwiess alone. I don't see how people can ignore that a guy with the ability to snipe you from behind at nearly 500x the speed of sound was present. Or the fact that if Aizen can switch himself with Momo in the midst of fighting like 10 freakin' captains, he's surely capable of sneaking off and taking out Kensei himself as well. Either way sounds smarter to me than leaving it up to chance that Wonderwiess will have defeated Kensei in time and be freed up/ready for the moment Yamamoto decides to pop up with his flames (which could have been at any time).

AlB
February 21, 2011, 01:26 PM
Yep...WW only had the element of surprise, but he never really did anything other than that...he showed regeneration, but when Yama did the double bone, he shattered...now I don't think that any fight against Yama can be used as comparison, but that;s my point...one cannot judge the regeneration capabilities and speed between Ulqui and WW...and that's where intelligence and powerful attacks come into play...and for the record...WW never showed overwhelming reiatsu, quite the opposite of Ulquiorra whos R2 was revered as a sea of reiatsu...so I think that brute strength doesn't really matter, Ulqui can outmaneuver him, pretty easily...and we also know that Ulqui doesn't underestimate, so he will be serious from the start whereas WW's release was designed to counter Yamamoto...

I see no reiatsu, speed or power difference between the two...Ulqui can win with superior intelligence and LDR

Speed-wise I can not see Ulq doing this (http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/08)
Strength-wise I can not see Ulq sending old man flying or actually hurting him. We are talking about a man who pierced Aizen's hand with freaking fingers (granted, Aizen was careless, but Yama's feat stands) and WW sent him flying.
Also, WW was designed to counter Ryujin-Jakka, not Yamamoto himself ;)

EDIT: speed-wise again: WW's movements were incomprehensible for Ukitake, I seriously doubt Ulquiorra possesses same speed, even in R2.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 01:41 PM
Speed-wise I can not see Ulq doing this (http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/08)
Strength-wise I can not see Ulq sending old man flying or actually hurting him. We are talking about a man who pierced Aizen's hand with freaking fingers (granted, Aizen was careless, but Yama's feat stands) and WW sent him flying.
Also, WW was designed to counter Ryujin-Jakka, not Yamamoto himself ;)

EDIT: speed-wise again: WW's movements were incomprehensible for Ukitake, I seriously doubt Ulquiorra possesses same speed, even in R2.

If Yamamoto would let Ulqui hit him, I'm sure he would send him flying...it's not that Yamamoto actually got hurt or something....after the gattling punch he even provoked him...as kkck said and I agree, Yamamoto was caught off guard, because Ryuujin Jakka was countered...

And R2 received the same surprise from Ichigo when Ulqui attacked him and in the second moment he was behind ichigo grabbing his head...and Ichigo was expecting the attack, whereas Ukitake was just there standing as a static bullseye...

I don't really want to turn this into an Uki vs ichi thread, but I think that my point still stand that speed-wise the two can't really be compared...power wise....WW showed brute strentgh and Ulqui showed LDR, which is pretty huge

Hystzen
February 21, 2011, 01:43 PM
WW takes this..

beating a broken ichigo is not that impressive..his R2 didnt show anything speed or skill wise better than his R1...what did it do..R1 dominated broken ichigo then wait what did R2 do the same...it didnt show nothing.

to me WW was the most powerfull even starrk nearly scared to death over WW turning up.

WW took yamma punch then regen ...also the gatling gun punches would crush ulq in CQC.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 01:44 PM
Yama blew his belly with the interior organs and Wondy managed to recover. Ican't see any of the Arrancars actually recovering from such a hit. In fact I can't see anyone exept him and Aizen (with Hougioku) recovering from such a hit, so Ulquiorra pretty doesn't have any chance.

El Samurai Guapo
I think it's just too complicated even for Kubo. I think that Aizen was just sure that released Wondy can take out nearly everyone in one on one fight and then come to seal Yama's Zan.;) Otherwise we wouldn't have seen that frase from Starrk that stated that Wondy's apearence leads him to think that Aizen wants to end this fight quickly.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
to me WW was the most powerfull even starrk nearly scared to death over WW turning up.

WW took yamma punch then regen ...also the gatling gun punches would crush ulq in CQC.

I didn't really interpret as Starrk being afraid...now we know what WW meant to Aizen, so I concluded that Starrk just noted that Aizen is serious enough to even finish off Yama...

About the gattling punches...I don't really see Ulqui getting caught in that in the first place...if he would be caught than he would be dead I think so as well, but I don't think he will

Crystal Black
February 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
Yep...WW only had the element of surprise, but he never really did anything other than that...he showed regeneration, but when Yama did the double bone, he shattered...now I don't think that any fight against Yama can be used as comparison, but that;s my point...one cannot judge the regeneration capabilities and speed between Ulqui and WW...and that's where intelligence and powerful attacks come into play...and for the record...WW never showed overwhelming reiatsu, quite the opposite of Ulquiorra whos R2 was revered as a sea of reiatsu...so I think that brute strength doesn't really matter, Ulqui can outmaneuver him, pretty easily...and we also know that Ulqui doesn't underestimate, so he will be serious from the start whereas WW's release was designed to counter Yamamoto...

I see no reiatsu, speed or power difference between the two...Ulqui can win with superior intelligence and LDR

It's not like there a huge gap between the differences. WW was in a high level fight with the strongest shinigami in the manga. Ulquiorra beat up on a half dead Ichigo once he released. WW certainly has the reiatsu, speed and power advantage. Again WW fights on instinct something similar to how H2 Ichigo was. So your telling me you think Ulquiorra had higher chances of surviving Yama's double bone technique.? If so I disagree. I think Ulquiorra has his chances but WW regerative skills were shown to be much better. Ulquiorra can have the Intelligence and AoE advantage. Uryu words mean nothing hear when he himself is barely captain level. Ulquiorera doesn't underestimate but he has certainly shown signs of arrogance. Ulquiorra was designed to fight and defeat someone much weaker then Yama at that point. While WW was created to counter the strongest fire based Zan in SS history. Yama's raw power would make even quicker work of Ulquiorra.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 01:49 PM
If Yama was caught Ulquiorra would have been clearly caught as well. Also the most important part in the fight is reiatsu level. And it should be pretty damn better on Wondy's side. His punches won't be just simple punches, but they would be backed up by his superior to Ulquiorra's reiatsu.:)

Hystzen
February 21, 2011, 01:50 PM
I didn't really interpret as Starrk being afraid...now we know what WW meant to Aizen, so I concluded that Starrk just noted that Aizen is serious enough to even finish off Yama...

About the gattling punches...I don't really see Ulqui getting caught in that in the first place...if he would be caught than he would be dead I think so as well, but I don't think he will

Starrk was afraid he was shocked he turned up because it ment Aizen sent him to clean up.

WW sealed outspeed urahara by taking his hat from his head he speed out sped ukitake who was staring right at him (the dont fight child rubbish is poor excuse he was stared right at him)


plus ARE WE REALLY COMPARING A FIGHT AGAINST YAMMA TO A BROKEN ICHIGO SERIOUSLY

Xerneas
February 21, 2011, 01:51 PM
His powers being made specifically to cancel Ryujin Jakka also doesn't match up to him cancelling (what else could you call it?) Mashiro's cero either. Lets just all agree FKT was a mess. Still though, unless Kubo comes out in the next Databook and says there was a lot more to Ulquiorra than meets the eye, I'm just not understanding his rating with the fans. I wonder if people realize his second release and Lanza make no difference to the rankings whatsoever. You can rationalize his performance vs the top 3 performance as I did already. And WW is above those guys, as alluded to by Starrk and proven by his performance. He's the only Arrancar that, y'know, actually did their job correctly. Intelligence is overrated it seems. :eyeroll

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 01:55 PM
Serenade
Totally agree with you. I don't understand why people are even arguing that Ulquiorra is stronger than Wondy or anyone from top Espada when Ulquiorra himself stated that top 3 Espada are stronger than him. So he himself took in account his R2 form.

Also in this manga you can be intelligent, you can be smartass, you can be a genius, but the idiot without brains will trash you if he has more reiatsu. It's just a law that was poven through the manga. The only expetion was Hisagi vs Tousen.:)

benelori
February 21, 2011, 02:01 PM
Starrk was afraid he was shocked he turned up because it ment Aizen sent him to clean up.

WW sealed outspeed urahara by taking his hat from his head he speed out sped ukitake who was staring right at him (the dont fight child rubbish is poor excuse he was stared right at him)


plus ARE WE REALLY COMPARING A FIGHT AGAINST YAMMA TO A BROKEN ICHIGO SERIOUSLY

Broken Ichigo or not...the speed feat still stands...Ukitake never showed anything really that would imply that he can react to high speed...even Starrk managed to get behind him, but the latter wasn't attacking just explaining his shikai so...

Despite what you say I don't think that WW meant that he would clean up...I don't think he would've beat Shunsui for example...he was there to counter Yama, which meant that the rest of the Gotei would need to be dealt with or needed to have been dealt already...that's my conclusion and there's nothing out there that can convince me really, because there's no hint in the manga....

And Yama didn't even take the fight seriously...even against Allon, he did allow the latter to try to hit him and he even did land a blow, it was just that Yama stopped him with one hand...he never really take anyone seriously except Aizen...and he was almost right in doing so
[hr]

Serenade
Totally agree with you. I don't understand why people are even arguing that Ulquiorra is stronger than Wondy or anyone from top Espada when Ulquiorra himself stated that top 3 Espada are stronger than him. So he himself took in account his R2 form.

Also in this manga you can be intelligent, you can be smartass, you can be a genius, but the idiot without brains will trash you if he has more reiatsu. It's just a law that was poven through the manga. The only expetion was Hisagi vs Tousen.:)

I've never seen superior reiatsu of WW, nor I've seen that he was in any circumstance part of the regular espada...when Ulqui mentioned the more powerful above him, he said that there were 3 people...and judging from the numbers they were Harribel, Barragan and Starrk...he never thought about Yammy who was in fact 0, so...I never considered WW espada not some superior weapon to espada...he was a trick to counter Ryuujin Jakka and ultimately Yama...I don't think Aizen even considered the possibility of WW beating Yamamoto, because he knew that WW will eventually blow up...

Hystzen
February 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
Broken Ichigo or not...the speed feat still stands...Ukitake never showed anything really that would imply that he can react to high speed...even Starrk managed to get behind him, but the latter wasn't attacking just explaining his shikai so...

Despite what you say I don't think that WW meant that he would clean up...I don't think he would've beat Shinsui for example...he was there to counter Yama, which meant that the rest of the Gotei would need to be dealt with or need to have been dealt already...that's my conclusion and there's nothing out there that can convince me really, because there's no hint in the manga....

And Yama didn't even take the fight seriously...even against Allon, he did allow the latter to try to hit him and he even did land a blow, it was just that Yama stopped him with one hand...he never really take anyone seriously except Aizen...and he was almost right in doing so

there is also one key thing to remember.

WW was a beast with no intelligence.

Ulq was beat by Perfect Hollow Ichigo a beast with no intelligence .

Ulq was over hyped soon as kubo printed my second release which aizen never seen (bs Aizen who knew everything in manga didnt know his underling had a extra release stage)

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 02:04 PM
benelori
I can't agree that Yama didn't take the fight seriusly. He even said to Wondy after hitting him with One Bone that he wasn't holding back, so we should agree that he was actually trying to take him from the first blow with the tecnique that would have killed the majority of Bleach characters.:)
I think taking out a Captain and fighting with Yama for some time is an indication of superiour reiatsu.:)

UchihaHunter
February 21, 2011, 02:10 PM
Considering everything that Ulquiorra did in the manga, I don't see how no one is considering that Ulquiorra could have been bringing up the other espada just to thrust Ichigo into despair. If Yammy's released state takes him to the 0 Espada, and is considered better than the Primera, then Ulquiorra would have said 4 Espada were stronger than him, right? I think Kubo made up a lot of things as he went along, but Ulquiorra was the one Aizen trusted to do...just about everything. Outside of him sending Starrk to grab Orihime, he sent Ulquiorra to do everything, no?

Honestly, I don't see why everyone thinks there was this huge gap betwen 1 and 4...we definitely didn't see anything like that, IMO. Do we now think that WW's reiatsu completely obliterates Ulquiorra's? That seems to be the consensus here, despite no one in the manga being really impressed with his reiatsu.

Even considering that FKT occurred in SS and not HM, that boost would have to be pretty tremendous to make up for the performances we saw. Harribel literally couldn't close the distance between herself and Hitsugaya...is Hitsugaya now faster than Vizard Bankai Ichigo?

Maybe it's because I was never impressed with Kensei; so I'm not really impressed with WW taking out Kensei off-screen. Yama is pretty strong, so I think that WW is durable, but it's not as if Ulquiorra isn't. Not to mention that Ulquiorra really is opportunistic in battle.

Ulquiorra fought Ichigo at 100%...R1 completely outclassed him, and he transformed to R2 merely to make Ichigo give up in despair. It didn't really work, so after tossing him around a bit, he put a hole in his chest...again. I think most of Ulquiorra's actions can be rationalized when you consider he wanted Ichigo to concede defeat, rather than actually be defeated.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 02:14 PM
benelori
I can't agree that Yama didn't take the fight seriusly. He even said to Wondy after hitting him with One Bone that he wasn't holding back, so we should agree that he was actually trying to take him from the first blow with the tecnique that would have killed the majority of Bleach characters.:)
I think taking out a Captain and fighting with Yama for some time is an indication of superiour reiatsu.:)

Well yeah...what I meant was that he deliberately took those hits, because he knew that there was no chance that he would get hurt...I mean Yama did take Allon seriously as well...he sliced him in one hit, without mercy, and he was even surprised that the latter still stood up...and then he roasted him...

My overall point is that the fight against Yama is not much of a comparison, because no matter what WW threw at him Yama wasn't hurt at all...and superior reiatsu...that might be true, but I think that is on par with R2

UchihaHunter
February 21, 2011, 02:18 PM
there is also one key thing to remember.

WW was a beast with no intelligence.

Ulq was beat by Perfect Hollow Ichigo a beast with no intelligence.
This is actually hilarious. What point does this prove at all? Yes, we know that Ulquiorra lost to Hollow Ichigo...it wasn't because Hollow Ichigo had no intelligece, it was because he was significantly more powerful, had Sonido, massive Ceros, etc...man, by this argument, Kensei should've gotten curbstomped by Hollow Ichigo when they were training, lol

Edit: Or that Kensei should've beaten WW with an elbow, lol...and shouldn't have had to use Bankai, etc. (inb4 Kensei didn't lose to WW)

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 02:19 PM
benelori
I think Yama is just the type of the character that always takes the fight seriously, cause he needs to fullfill his duty.:) The same is Komamura. Yama was serious, but he just didn't expect that high regen from both Allon and Wondy.:)

Even though Wondy didn't show various tecniques I think he should be considered as one of the strongest Arrancars so far with Starrk and Yami. At least it's clear that in terms of regen he was the best among arrancars and in terms of durability he was second just to Yammy.:)

Hystzen
February 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
Perfect Hollow Ichigo is weak..he cold not beat a true oppenant..Ulq is just over hyped over the so called R2.

kubo has put in his book clearly that ulq is number 4 espada he not above the others

benelori
February 21, 2011, 02:26 PM
benelori
I think Yama is just the type of the character that always takes the fight seriously, cause he needs to fullfill his duty.:) The same is Komamura. Yama was serious, but he just didn't expect that high regen from both Allon and Wondy.:)

Even though Wondy didn't show various tecniques I think he should be considered as one of the strongest Arrancars so far with Starrk and Yami. At least it's clear that in terms of regen he was the best among arrancars and in terms of durability he was second just to Yammy.:)

I agree with most of this...WW did show brute strength and durability, and high regeneration skills....that's why I said in the first post that Ulquiorra would only win based on his intelligence and LDR...Cero Oscuras won't really work...and if one LDR doesn't work as well, then more will work, and he showed that he can fire more LDR during a battle...it is an opinion really, based on what each of them did during fights...

And about Yama...I would agree, but Yama did have a sentence there that just provoked WW to do more, and for me it was like he just took that gattling attack just to prove a point about his strength...which is another interpretation of what I've read, which clearly is not in consensus with many people
[hr]

Perfect Hollow Ichigo is weak..he cold not beat a true oppenant..Ulq is just over hyped over the so called R2.

kubo has put in his book clearly that ulq is number 4 espada he not above the others

That's true...he is just fourth...but that means that he is not more powerful than Starrk, not WW as well

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 02:33 PM
benelori
I think that Yama tanked that Gatling attack because he understood the limit of Wondy's power and knew that it wasn't enough to really damage him and so he just tanked it to show how strong he is to Wondy and to Aizen.:) Even though Wondy really made a great job actually capturing Yama and making quite a good gatling.:)

About Ulquiorra's Lanza... I don't think that he can spam them like Ichigo spams Getsuga and Wondy clearly showed greater speed than Ulquiorra, cause he was rather quick to be a match in speed to Yama and he is ultimate Shinigami.:) Also I don't actually think that Lanza is that great attack. I think it is a bit overrated.:) But first it needs to actually contact with someone and we know that it won't happen.:)

Hystzen
February 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
I agree with most of this...WW did show brute strength and durability, and high regeneration skills....that's why I said in the first post that Ulquiorra would only win based on his intelligence and LDR...Cero Oscuras won't really work...and if one LDR doesn't work as well, then more will work, and he showed that he can fire more LDR during a battle...it is an opinion really, based on what each of them did during fights...

And about Yama...I would agree, but Yama did have a sentence there that just provoked WW to do more, and for me it was like he just took that gattling attack just to prove a point about his strength...which is another interpretation of what I've read, which clearly is not in consensus with many people
<hr noshade size="1">


That's true...he is just fourth...but that means that he is not more powerful than Starrk, not WW as well

WW has done more feat wise then any of the espadas.

he outsped urahara, outsped ukitake, KO kensei, broke histus HH, Soi fon smoke, mashiro cero negated and even knocked yamma down.

ulq- beat up ichigo ..well even grimmjow did that twice..byakuya once..nothing really impressive..even his so called 2nd release showed no increase of speed or power.

Xerneas
February 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
@UchihaHunter. Funny thing about the Yammy situation is that Kubo already started backing him in the last Databook, saying he had the second strongest Hierro. People were pissed about that lol. I expect utter outrage when Kubo tells us that everything was.....just like he said it was. :eyeroll

And the difference caused by HM is indeed large. Ishida mentioned it. And you don't need a statement anyway cause you could see it for yourself. Both he and Chad personally benefitted from this. The latter in particular, whose hollow-like Fullbring went from having one arm, to having that arm upgraded seriously AND getting a whole new arm on top of that!

The discrepancy was increased even further by the fact that the top 3 were fighting stronger opponents. And yes, Hitsugaya is more powerful (but slower and less of a tank) than Visored Ichigo. Last time I checked, Ichigo's GT never matched Hyoten Hyakkaso in strength. And that was a powered-down version Hitsu used too....

Finally there was the drama factor with Ulquiorra being Ichigo's big rival and fan favourite blah blah so his fight was made to look extremely epic, as was Grimmjow's to an extent. Notice that Aizen didn't get this treatment. All things considered it makes sense Mr. Cifer was no.4.

So, its simple. For this match you must consider Ulquiorra with all his abilites reduced quite dramatically. No one supporting him seems to be doing that. Its an odd thing to do cause it clashes with the rules (using manga feats), but, if you don't, the match is obviously unfair in Ulquiorra's favour. I already gave my views more than once though so let the votes decide.

benelori
February 21, 2011, 02:51 PM
benelori
I think that Yama tanked that Gatling attack because he understood the limit of Wondy's power and knew that it wasn't enough to really damage him and so he just tanked it to show how strong he is to Wondy and to Aizen.:) Even though Wondy really made a great job actually capturing Yama and making quite a good gatling.:)

About Ulquiorra's Lanza... I don't think that he can spam them like Ichigo spams Getsuga and Wondy clearly showed greater speed than Ulquiorra, cause he was rather quick to be a match in speed to Yama and he is ultimate Shinigami.:) Also I don't actually think that Lanza is that great attack. I think it is a bit overrated.:) But first it needs to actually contact with someone and we know that it won't happen.:)

That's true...but if it is hyped then the one who hyped it, it was Kubo...he made it look like a huge ass explosion, and in the end Ichigonator stopped it with bare hands...but even Ichigonator is not something to really be used as comparison here...we know what kind of power did Hichigo have...controlling that power made him a greater existence that Butterflaizen...

And for me it's kinda the same with the gattling punch...I'd rather see that attack in normal circumstances, rather than against Yama where it had no effect whatsoever
[hr]

WW has done more feat wise then any of the espadas.

he outsped urahara, outsped ukitake, KO kensei, broke histus HH, Soi fon smoke, mashiro cero negated and even knocked yamma down.

ulq- beat up ichigo ..well even grimmjow did that twice..byakuya once..nothing really impressive..even his so called 2nd release showed no increase of speed or power.

Urahara actually was good enough to react against that speed and evade, so it's not like it was outsped...he was just a surprised as anyone else, just like Yama who got sent flying...WW isn't something to be feared at first sight...that's why he can surprise opponents...

Ulqui's second release was much greater in terms of reiatsu, and the speed-wise even R1 was much superior to Ichigo...
[hr]

@UchihaHunter. Funny thing about the Yammy situation is that Kubo already started backing him in the last Databook, saying he had the second strongest Hierro. People were pissed about that lol. I expect utter outrage when Kubo tells us that everything was.....just like he said it was. :eyeroll

So, its simple. For this match you must consider Ulquiorra with all his abilites reduced quite dramatically. No one supporting him seems to be doing that. Its an odd thing to do cause it clashes with the rules (using manga feats), but, if you don't, the match is obviously unfair in Ulquiorra's favour. I already gave my views more than once though so let the votes decide.

I see a bit of a contradiction here...I think, unless I misunderstood the post or failed to see some sarcasm etc:p...I mean if we take Kubo's word, then we don't have to expect Ulquiorra being less powerful than he was shown in the manga...UR right I didn't consider this:p, but I didn't think I had to, and honestly I don't really think so even now

Other than that...agreed...may the best win...Ulquiorra :cheerbunny

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 02:52 PM
benelori
I agree that we hype both attacks to some extent.:) The problem actually is that we won't see any of those attacks against other opponents in the manga.:)
I just wanted to point one thing.:) Sometimes the thing is that actual attack can be big and flashy, but actually another attack that looks way smaller and not that flashy can be stronger in this manga.:) For example in the end we just got slashes from Aizen all way round. And the same from Ichigo (even though his slashes were in Bankai).:)

UchihaHunter
I think it's rather obvious that for now we should consider the information from Databook to be the ultimate info on the power levels of Espada. And if it says that Ulquiorra was number 4 he is number 4.:) Also it says that Yammi is the strongest Espada, so there is no doubt that he will bit any of the lower. It's just the common logic according to the rules of this manga.:)

Xerneas
February 21, 2011, 03:23 PM
Last post (seriously lol). Nah I wasn't being sarcastic. Kubo did say he was no.4 afterall. But the thing is, our perceptions of this were drastically altered by reasons I explained already. He has an unfair advantage over the top 3 and WW cause his powers/feats were being boosted the whole time and theirs weren't. I'd use the same logic if this was vs Starrk or whoever too. With other matchups involving Arrancar/Visoreds it wasn't a problem cause either both people benefitted from the same environment or the gap in class was so great it didn't make any difference. It is a contradiction cause to get a fair match you can't take his feats at face value.

*And to me it has to work like that because almost everyone ignores his ranking completely. -_-;

Jorge D. Dragon
February 21, 2011, 03:38 PM
Serenade
Sometimes the argumants might be like: "Oh, he is damn cool! I like him! I'll vote for him!" The same goes for President's elections for the most part.:)

UchihaHunter
February 21, 2011, 05:05 PM
I mean, who have we seen fight in both the real world and in HM? Yammy, Grimmjaw, and Ulquiorra, right? Did Grimmjaw look like his speed/power/durability jumped drastically in HM vs. the real world?

Cooper
February 21, 2011, 06:09 PM
Perfect Hollow Ichigo is weak..he cold not beat a true oppenant..Ulq is just over hyped over the so called R2.

Seriously? I mean, seriously?

Yeah, Wondy might have caught couple captains off-guard, and he stood against swordless Yama quite well, but that doesn't change the fact that he's retarded. And Ulqi is not. Neither is Ichigonator.
And just because theoretically Ulqi is #4, it doesn't mean that he cannot be stronger that those theoretically above him.

El Samurai Guapo
February 21, 2011, 06:15 PM
Do we need to even bring up the R2/espada rank debate here? It's not like Wonderwiess would defeat any of the espada ranked higher than Ulquiorra anyway.

Jackk
February 21, 2011, 11:55 PM
WW sealed outspeed urahara by taking his hat from his head

No, not even close...

WW was about to attack from behind while Kisuke was introducing himself to Luppi...and Kisuke was still fast enough to detect WW, turn around and make him back off. Also, Kisuke's hat never came off. Heck Kisuke even dodged a Bala from WW at nearly point blank range, so yeah... Sandal-hat was definitely much faster than sealed WW.

_______________________________________________________

Anyway, I'm going with Ulquiorra for this particular match.

WW really does not impress me. I really don't believe that he beat Bankai Kensei, much less Bankai + Mask Kensei. There are several other possible scenarios and reasons for Kensei not showing up later to fight. And I also agree with El Samurai Guapo in that it's certainly possible that either Gin or even Aizen could have been responsible for Kensei's defeat; it would make sense that they would not want to leave it up to chance that Wonderwiess will have defeated Kensei in time and be freed up/ready for the moment Yamamoto decides to release his flames. WW was definitely extremely important to Aizen. And considering the fact that Aizen could switch himself with Hinamori completely undetected WHILE supposedly fighting multiple captains, and Gin is the guy who snipes you from behind when you're facing somebody else, yeah... them taking out Kensei is not out of the realm of possibilities. We really didn't see what happened to Kensei, nor did we even see him after the war.

That being said, what has WW shown? He sealed Yama's fire, but he was specifically modified to do just that--and WW sacrificed A LOT to gain that single ability. Aizen told us that WW lost language, knowledge, memory, and even reason. http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch394%2Fbleach-ch394-01.png Further, that also means that WW is certainly not going to be making any sort of complex tactics in this fight, which plays in Ulquiorra's favor. Not to mention that Ulquiorra is actually the analytical type.

Also, regarding Stark's comment about WW's arrival being a sign that Aizen had grown tired of waiting....I want to say that does not really mean that WW was the strongest arrancar. Stark never made any mention of WW being superior to him. Now, why would Stark say WW's arrival meant that Aizen had grown tired of waiting? It's simple, the reason is that Yama had still yet to be taken down-- and if Wonderweiss was now in FKT...it meant that Aizen was getting ready to use Wonderweiss to seal Yama's zanpakutou. Wonderweiss had a very important role in Aizen's plan. That's all there is to that. Wonderweiss was modified to have the ability to seal Yama's fire, but he was not modified to actually be a match for Yama. As a matter of fact, WW was absolutely no match for the old man's bare hands. All of WWs attacks were completely useless against Yama, thus I don't understand why a lot of people here are so impressed with WW's performance against Yama. Even when WW grabbed Yama by the arms, it was because Yama let his guard down for a moment...but what happened to Yama? Absolutely nothing! WW's attacks were completely ineffective. Yama even looked down on him and said: "---What? That's it?" ...and then Yama proceeds to easily rip off WW's arms. Yama could have easily one-shotted WW from the start, but he initially underestimated him by not taking into account his high-speed regeneration.

Now, I think that Ulquiorra can take this because he has the advantage in the intelligence department, and I think that he has enough power to beat WW. Also, Ulquiorra's high-speed regeneration may not regenerate his internal organs, but I do believe that his HSR may still be helpful/useful. Furthermore, even though his Lanza del Relampago may not be the most accurate of his attacks when thrown from a distance...there is no reason to believe that Ulquiorra could not keep throwing more. We did see Ulquiorra using lanza del relampago several times; he was still able to use one even after his internal organs were already damaged by hollow Ichigo. We also saw Ulquiorra attempting to strike with the lance at close range, so that could be another possible tactic that he could use in this match. Heck, I could even see Ulquiorra possibly getting hit, then WW just standing there saying "Aaahhhhh" (as we've seen him doing) ...then Ulquiorra appearing behind him and hitting WW in the head with his lance--which could give Ulquiorra the victory. Similar to what Ulquiorra did against hollow Ichigo, except I don't think that WW will be destroying Ulquiorra's internal organs.

hajialibaig
February 22, 2011, 12:52 AM
IMHO, the vaizards were and are overrated.

Kensei w/bankai was no better than Byakuya/Ichigo (SS arc).

R1 Ulquiorra totally dominated a full powered vaizard Ichigo (Ichigo was able to keep his mask on for hours by that time and had enhanced his speed and strength).


R2 Ulquiorra was light years stronger and faster.

Ichigonator is grossly underestimated, he was probably Aizen level or beyond.

Jackk
February 22, 2011, 01:05 AM
Kensei w/bankai was no better than Byakuya/Ichigo (SS arc).

When did we see Kensei's Bankai in action? :blink

El Samurai Guapo
February 22, 2011, 01:27 AM
Also, Ulquiorra's high-speed regeneration may not regenerate his internal organs, but I do believe that his HSR may still be helpful/useful.

It would definitely be useful. Punching is released WW's only way of attacking. He had a claymore on his back while sealed but we never saw him use that...I doubt a retard would be a very proficient swordsman anyway. Punching (no matter how many times) is definitely not causing any damage to Ulquiorra that he can't regen from. I even doubt the punches would do much regardless of HSR considering Ulquiorra had very impressive hierro (being able to stop a bankai/hollow GT and Kisuke's nake with his bare hands even while sealed). Ulquiorra also has two very large (and seemingly powerful) wings he can shield himself with incase he's caught by the arms the way Yamamoto was. He's also got a tail he can attack with in that situation. Heck, Ulquiorra could probably just detach his arms and regrow them to escape from that as well.

Meanwhile a stab through the head or decapitation would be all Ulquiorra needs to do to kill WW once he figures out he also possesses HSR.

xXan
February 22, 2011, 01:54 AM
Haha, i am so happy some people are actualy going with Ulquiorra. I belived i will be the only one:P

Now as we know from Ulquiorra's fight with Ichigo, Ulquiorra actualy goes for the head in a fight (Ichigo used GT be reflex or he would be missing his head). All Ulquiorra needs to do is cut off WW head and its over (not that it will be that easy but he can do it because U can actualy make tactics in a fight and WW would fall for anything).

Takahashi
February 22, 2011, 02:06 AM
Haha, i am so happy some people are actualy going with Ulquiorra. I belived i will be the only one:P

Now as we know from Ulquiorra's fight with Ichigo, Ulquiorra actualy goes for the head in a fight (Ichigo used GT be reflex or he would be missing his head). All Ulquiorra needs to do is cut off WW head and its over (not that it will be that easy but he can do it because U can actualy make tactics in a fight and WW would fall for anything).

Ulq's intelligence will certainly play a factor, but to what extent, I'm skeptical. Also, does his Lanza actually HAVE cutting power? It looks to me like nothing but a big clump of energy in an easy to throw form, it blew up when it hit the ground, why would it suddenly become like a blade?

Edit: Never mind he cut Ichigo's horn.

I'd be open to accepting the possibility that WW could be decapitated, but that goes for everyone anyway. I don't think it'll be easy when the guys throwing 20 punches at you at once. The damage may be of the impact kind, but that's fully capable of busting organs.

WW was able to catch the CC of all people and actually overwhelm him once and do some minor damage. That alone says a lot to me, because I don't think Ulq would even be able to touch him.

Random101
February 22, 2011, 02:15 AM
A punch probably wouldn't do much damage.

A deluge of thousands of punches practically at once with the capability to actually cause damage to Yamamoto? Punches that do damage to that monster in a world where blunt force is frigging worthless? Ulquiorra's organs are going to be paste by the time that's done.

Frankly I don't find Ulquiorra's Hierro impressive in the slightest. Yay, it blocked a vizard GT, whoop de freaking do, so did Grimmjaw's even prior to the deal with Orihime, and both were weaker than both Nnoitra and Yammi, both of which patched Kenpachi wastes with ease. Not a high bar to set your impressiveness factor with to say the freaking least. Granted however, Heirro is worse on you when you go for hand to hand, but considering wonderwiess HSR far outstripping most others that's outright negated. Any damage done to a single arm in punching him will be a cinch to heal before he throws the next one.

Wings would be a good point... Were number and speed not already on his arm's side, as well as them coming from multiple directions at once. Yeah, try blocking those arms with those two wings when they curve around your wing, slip past your defenses and bitchslap you in the face. And his tail? A single one of his extendo arms are better than his tail in that they can actually grab you worth a damn, Extend FAR further, and are goddamn fast. And he has a massive number he can easily pull at once and regenerates any one of them in an instant. The tail is completely and utterly worthless in light of that.

Ulquiorra's one shot is the lance. He stands zero chance in CQC against someone who quite literally overwhelms him in that category without a blade of a sort, even if setting it off on himself would frigging blow given it's DEFINITELY doing more damage to him than Wonderwiess. And this is neglecting Wonderwiess's insane Blade catching abilities. Well I suppose he also has a Cero Obscuras, but frankly cero's blow so I'm probably going with the lance, friggin crappy aim or not.

He does have a prayer if Wonderwiess is being stupid though, no doubt about that. If he's bringing his A game though, yeah no, Wonderwiess all the way.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 22, 2011, 02:22 AM
xXan
Everyone can go with headshot, but the thing is will you be granted with this option.;)

I really can't understand why people ignore the better capabilities of Wondy in speed and regen and also in physical power. Those will let him win this match alone. Ulquiorra is physically weak and all his attacks were about Ceros mostly. Wondy negates Ceros and other abilities with his scream, so Ulquiorra's Ceros won't be effective. Since he can't aim properly with Lanza is useless attack, especially on the person that is clearly faster than him.

xXan
February 22, 2011, 02:39 AM
xXan
Everyone can go with headshot, but the thing is will you be granted with this option.;)

I really can't understand why people ignore the better capabilities of Wondy in speed and regen and also in physical power. Those will let him win this match alone. Ulquiorra is physically weak and all his attacks were about Ceros mostly. Wondy negates Ceros and other abilities with his scream, so Ulquiorra's Ceros won't be effective. Since he can't aim properly with Lanza is useless attack, especially on the person that is clearly faster than him.

Not everyone would go with headshot from the start. People usualy go with the torso. U would have an advantage here. That is what i meant.

As for WW having better speed? I don't think so. WW probably has better physical power but U has better fire power so its irrelevant. Better regen is also not a big deal when he will me missing his head.

Also people keep ignoring the fact that U has a brain and is a great tactician and the fact that WW is a complete imbecile.

Oh end the punches ... They made 0 damage to the CC but somehow are going to rip U apart .. right .. (not direcly addressed to you).

Jorge D. Dragon
February 22, 2011, 02:48 AM
xXan
1. About Head shots... it's not only Ulquiorra. Ruyken also goes for a head, Ichigo used his Getsuga on Gin's head, Yoruichi used her Shunko on Aizen's head. Not everyone can oneshot his opponent in a head. The thing is even if you had good idea you need to actually be capable of backing it up with power.
2. Wondy clearly has better speed. It's even strange to argue about this. He speedblitzed Ukitake and keeped for quite some time with Yama's speed to block his punches towards Aizen and then fighting actually Yama.
3. Of course Wondy's punches weren't enough to make actual damage to Yama, but he bleeded a bit. And actually Yama is the biggest beast of this manga. I'm pretty sure that Ulquiorra is way inferior to Yama. So Wondy's punches would trash Ulquiorra's interior organs.;)

P.S. As I said before... brain doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up with power.

Random101
February 22, 2011, 03:47 AM
They made 0 damage to the CC but somehow are going to rip U apart
He actually got the captain commander to bleed. With Pure Physical strikes.

Keep in mind, with opponents of roughly equal levels it's rare to ever get any sort of clear physical damage on a dude with any sort of HtH techs. In Bleach especially the only sort of damage you ever really see at all are straight up cuts, things like Love's giant club hit and though we're told they 'hurt' they leave behind no physical damage at all. Same with things like freezing, or blasts like ceroes, things that would normally cause nasty damages to virtually anyone rarely cause more than some lingering frost or some dirt on their face at times for opponents of roughly equal levels.

Wonderwiess however actually got injuries on friggin Yamamoto with physical strikes alone. To actually cause bleeding is already pretty decent of a feat, but on one of the biggest monsters in this series? That's insane. Ulquiorra's organs don't stand a chance. And he damages one of those and it's over for the bat. Ulquiorra's one prayer is vaporizing Wonderwiess, which really isn't happening, or MAYBE his head.

And mind this is a world where straight up no one, even Ulquiorra in the exact same situation against Ichinator, goes for the head in the first place even assuming that did work.

xXan
February 22, 2011, 04:13 AM
xXan
1. About Head shots... it's not only Ulquiorra. Ruyken also goes for a head, Ichigo used his Getsuga on Gin's head, Yoruichi used her Shunko on Aizen's head. Not everyone can oneshot his opponent in a head. The thing is even if you had good idea you need to actually be capable of backing it up with power.
2. Wondy clearly has better speed. It's even strange to argue about this. He speedblitzed Ukitake and keeped for quite some time with Yama's speed to block his punches towards Aizen and then fighting actually Yama.
3. Of course Wondy's punches weren't enough to make actual damage to Yama, but he bleeded a bit. And actually Yama is the biggest beast of this manga. I'm pretty sure that Ulquiorra is way inferior to Yama. So Wondy's punches would trash Ulquiorra's interior organs.;)

P.S. As I said before... brain doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up with power.

Ukitake got backstabed.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-7114-5/bleach/chapter-364.html

I would not put this up as a great feat of speed. Ukitake was just careless and amazed of that big thing.
Hell that holofied girl (forgot her name) was keeping up with WW and beating him down. Do you whant me to belive she has WAY more speed then Ukitake?
As for Yama Ji's punch... How far was WW from Yama Ji and Aizen? Good feat but not that incredible.

Now U on the other hand was making a complete joke out of bankai hollofied Ichigo.. in a sense that in his lvl 1 release Ichigo was completly unable to fight back or keep up. I woul say this is better then jumping in front of the CC punch.. A punch goes 1 way. WW can notice the CC arming the punch (like in the real world MA) and anticipate the punch. This is not that impresive ...

@Random101

You call that injury? A little blood from the lip and the nouse after the CC tanked a direct hit like that? Bub if i bruise my lip i will bleed like that ... Hell the CC would have eneded that fight from second one if he would have used double bone(whatever its spelled) but he underestimated his regeneration.
I on the other hand got a thing that can detonate like a damn nuke.

freshseth83
February 22, 2011, 04:38 AM
I think people are hyping up both sides. WW released or ressureccion is superior to Ulquiorra in R1 and R2. That's just my opinion. I think WW has what it takes to win here. Ulquiorra would be problematic, but all that small talk isn't going to save him from WW. Same can be said with WW, but instead of talking, he usually gets on with the business. Weve seen speed from both, but WW took a single bone to the gut from Yama, that would toast anyone in bleach unless they have some serious serious armor or hierro, which I don't see anyone having. While I agree that the Lance of Ulq. is powerful as all hell, it aint gonna do nothing unless he hits WW with it. If he can't hit Ichigo with it, he can't hit WW with it. Both were pretty much mindless animals doing nothing but rampaging. Nothing can compare to Yama, so we shouldn't even think that since WW didn't beat him, he's not worthy. That's ludicrous.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 22, 2011, 04:57 AM
xXan
Even though Ukitake was taken off guard he should still react to Wondy if he was weak, but the guy was right near his pet, so he moved quite a serious distance and also got to Uki from behind. That's a real speed fit.:)
About the thing that you are saying that it was nothing more than a little bleeding that Yama got from Wondy's punches, but tell me who could have done better by sheer physical power?;)

I don't actually understand your comment about Ichi.:) I didn't state that he couldn't fight back. I said that he also tried to one-shot his opponent by trying to make headshot to Gin, but actually failed to inflict critical damage.:) That was all to my comment. About the punch that goes one way... The majority of attacks go one way, but even if you know where the attack goes, you should have enough speed and power to counter it. That was the most important point that I wanted to say.;)

Gran Maestro
February 22, 2011, 05:14 AM
Now, why would Stark say WW's arrival meant that Aizen had grown tired of waiting? It's simple, the reason is that Yama had still yet to be taken down-- and if Wonderweiss was now in FKT...it meant that Aizen was getting ready to use Wonderweiss to seal Yama's zanpakutou. Wonderweiss had a very important role in Aizen's plan. That's all there is to that. Wonderweiss was modified to have the ability to seal Yama's fire, but he was not modified to actually be a match for Yama. As a matter of fact, WW was absolutely no match for the old man's bare hands.

If Aizen, Gin and Tōsen did help the espada defeat their opponents, you would have a point but they didn't. Aizen was still expecting his arrancar to defeat their opponents by themselves and since Yamamoto wouldn't intervene before all other captains got defeated, obviously WW was there to make this process much quicker.

Now, if WW wasn't at least stronger than Starrk, why would Starrk say "WW will help us defeat the enemy much quicker"? If WW was on par with the likes of Grimmjow, he wouldn't be making anything quicker, Komamura would release his KTM and crush him.

According to Aizen, WW was certainly a match for Yamamoto's bare hands, he didn't know Yamamoto was much more powerful than he had ever imagined. Didn't Aizen say "the strongest can be defeated (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-393/18/) by negating his ability" and "Yamamoto is helpless before WW's power (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/02/)"?

Aizen said "Goodbye", hoping that WW would finish Yamamoto off quickly but much to Aizen's surprise, Yamamoto sent WW flying. Look at Aizen's face (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/05/), he was certainly not expecting such an attack from Yamamoto. What if WW couldn't make it on time (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/08/), would Aizen put his faith in a weakling?

Starrk's and Aizen's words indicate that WW was indeed extremely strong. If WW was only as strong as Grimmjow, would Kubo let WW make a dramatic entrance and take down Ukitake in the process? You're making everything overly-complicated and inconsistent because you just don't want to accept that WW defeated Kensei. :)

UchihaHunter
February 22, 2011, 08:57 AM
Frankly I don't find Ulquiorra's Hierro impressive in the slightest. Yay, it blocked a vizard GT, whoop de freaking do, so did Grimmjaw's even prior to the deal with Orihime, and both were weaker than both Nnoitra and Yammi, both of which patched Kenpachi wastes with ease. Not a high bar to set your impressiveness factor with to say the freaking least. Granted however, Heirro is worse on you when you go for hand to hand, but considering wonderwiess HSR far outstripping most others that's outright negated. Any damage done to a single arm in punching him will be a cinch to heal before he throws the next one.
Just noting...it didn't matter what level of strength Ichigo was at, his GT did nothing to Ulquiorra...whereas Grimmjaw was pretty well wasted by it immediately after Ichigo obtained his mask, and was even damaged by it before he obtained his mask.

Ulquiorra barehandedly repeled BGTs, and Urahara's energy attack, which definitely surprised Urahara. Furthermore, even when Ichigo had powered up, even when he was resolved to fight Ulquiorra, even when he was in his Bankai with all of that cutting power...he barely nicked Ulquiorra's hierro. I wouldn't have been surprised if Ulquiorra had the second strongest hierro; going by feats, it was definitely quite impressive.

And again, I'm just wondering why we're assuming that all of Ulquiorra's HM feats will be downgraded considerably. We've seen him and Grimmjaw fight in HM and in the real world...did Grimmjaw seem like he got a ridiculous power boost in HM? I mean, if that's the case, then hell, Hitsugaya couldn't beat Luppi in the real world...would Luppi have killled Hitsugaya in HM? All I've seen are estimates using a Quincy and a Fullbring user...neither of whom are hollows or arrancar.

And people seem to forget that even after getting nearly cut in two and being blown up by a Cero strong enough to repel a Cero Oscuras, Ulquiorra still got up, used Sonido, and attempted a headshot with LDR. Dude isn't going down for the count as soon as an organ gets damaged. And WW hasn't really shown the killer instinct to continuously attack an opponent even when said opponent is down...I don't see him taking out an organ and then proceeding to pummel Ulquiorra more, just to be safe.

Edit: And why are we acting as if patched Kenpachi doesn't still have ridiculous cutting power?

AlB
February 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
If Yamamoto would let Ulqui hit him, I'm sure he would send him flying...it's not that Yamamoto actually got hurt or something....after the gattling punch he even provoked him...as kkck said and I agree, Yamamoto was caught off guard, because Ryuujin Jakka was countered...

But was Yamamoto also caught off guard by WW's many hands? and that WW was able to restrain him with just 2 of them (even if only for several seconds) is also a feat that I don't believe Ulq may be able to pull off.


And R2 received the same surprise from Ichigo when Ulqui attacked him and in the second moment he was behind ichigo grabbing his head...and Ichigo was expecting the attack, whereas Ukitake was just there standing as a static bullseye...

Uki was standing as a static bullseye... and looking directly at WW I might add :amuse


I don't really want to turn this into an Uki vs ichi thread, but I think that my point still stand that speed-wise the two can't really be compared...power wise....WW showed brute strentgh and Ulqui showed LDR, which is pretty huge

well, I already presented my argument about their speed (Yama-Aizen moment) and LDR can be canceled by WW's scream.

Random101
February 22, 2011, 11:40 AM
I wouldn't have been surprised if Ulquiorra had the second strongest hierro; going by feats, it was definitely quite impressive.
That would be impressive. Assuming Ichigo feats are worth a damn.

I again point to the confirmed two strongest Heirro's, Yammi and Nnoitra. Both of which are definitely above Ulquiorra's. Both of which are cut through by even a patched Kenpachi. Now mind I'm not saying Kenpachi isn't a monster himself, however patching him reduces that factor considerably. And with Yammi he was cutting with ease. Meaning all those VGT? <<<Patched Kenpachi's basic sword swings.

Similarly on a little blood, getting any damage at all is impressive for blunt strikes in this series. Getting damage on one of the most potent people in this series is even moreso. Because getting damage actually means you're doing what physical strikes are meant to do and wrecking someone's day, when normally they arbitrarily do jack. Ulquiorra's massive weakness is that any damage to organs can't be repaired. Getting hit by that onslaught is not going to be good.

And I'd be more impressed with that nuke if it wasn't pretty much implied getting hit by it himself would be bad, and if he could hit the broad side of a barn with it. >>


We've seen him and Grimmjaw fight in HM and in the real world...did Grimmjaw seem like he got a ridiculous power boost in HM? I mean, if that's the case, then hell, Hitsugaya couldn't beat Luppi in the real world...would Luppi have killled Hitsugaya in HM?
Grimmjaw went from getting hit by bloody Rukia, surprise or not, to virtually dodging with ease most of resolved Ichigo's blows (Which isn't in itself impressive but considering the lack of feats from both sides I'm taking what I can get), and from a high power getsuuga leaving a nasty scar on him to doing virtually nothing (Granted level of powers were involved, but Ichigo upgraded to so I'm calling that one) Similarly when the bloody hell did we see Ulquiorra actually fight? Know what he did? Block a shikai energy strike from Urahara. Not among the most impressive of feats considering Hierro.

Also Hitsugaya friggin wrecked Luppi. Couldn't beat him? Luppi was outright saved, hit so bad he was literally knocked out of release. Granted who knows what would happen in a straight fight though, but in terms of how it went the winner was clear.

Further, we have an outright statement via plot that HM boosts hollows and Shinigami considerably by just being there, hollows apparently getting it a little moreso given things like Chad and the same statement saying that even mook hollows could be dangerous thanks to said boost (Meaning it's literally INSANE). This of course means that, roughly speaking, the scales are about right, give or take a few slants due to extra boosts to hollows. It's the collateral that's affected however.

Meaning Ulquiorra's boom and BC will likely not be as massive as they were (Still considerably massive obviously), and... Yeah that's all I can really think of, most of the others have haxed abilities that don't really rely on power so much as precision. Yammi would be less impressive sure, but considering he literally wasn't that doesn't say much, and most of the crap with Grimmjaw was physical, hence not impressive from the start.

g0dzax
February 22, 2011, 12:20 PM
Meaning all those VGT? <<<Patched Kenpachi's basic sword swings.

Yet the same Ichigo managed to hold his ground in shikai against an eyepatchless Kenpachi:).

BaddAzzKenpachi74
February 22, 2011, 12:35 PM
Yet the same Ichigo managed to hold his ground in shikai against an eyepatchless Kenpachi:).

funny how you ignore the fact that Zangestu lent ALL of his power to Ichigo for the attack that beat Kenpachi which would make him FAR above Shikai power.;)

People tend to forget that Kenpachi litterly pwned Ichigo in every posible way when initially fighting in Shikai mode before Zangestu intervened.

g0dzax
February 22, 2011, 12:42 PM
Yes,Zangetsu lent ALL his power to Ichigo,yet since Bankai increases reiatsu by a factor of ten(around this value)and the Mask gives another healthy boost in reiatsu,I really doubt that that Ichigo Shikai which fought against Kenpachi could have gained the same amount of reiatsu as a Bankai and a Mask would give.

UchihaHunter
February 22, 2011, 01:29 PM
That would be impressive. Assuming Ichigo feats are worth a damn.

I again point to the confirmed two strongest Heirro's, Yammi and Nnoitra. Both of which are definitely above Ulquiorra's. Both of which are cut through by even a patched Kenpachi. Now mind I'm not saying Kenpachi isn't a monster himself, however patching him reduces that factor considerably. And with Yammi he was cutting with ease. Meaning all those VGT? <<<Patched Kenpachi's basic sword swings.
You are aware that Ichigo cut through Yammy, right? That and energy attacks apparently don't have the same effect as sword slashes; we saw Ichigo cut through Grimmjaw like butter in HM, but even when Grimmjaw was one-armed and weakened, GT didn't cut through him.


Similarly on a little blood, getting any damage at all is impressive for blunt strikes in this series. Getting damage on one of the most potent people in this series is even moreso. Because getting damage actually means you're doing what physical strikes are meant to do and wrecking someone's day, when normally they arbitrarily do jack. Ulquiorra's massive weakness is that any damage to organs can't be repaired. Getting hit by that onslaught is not going to be good.
While I think Yama is God, those punches didn't harm him...maybe it's just similar to when KTM backhanded Tousen for me; if you hit Yama hundreds of times, I would hope that you do more than some bruises (which I actually think were more from the initial toss into buildings, but I don't have the chapter handy)


Grimmjaw went from getting hit by bloody Rukia, surprise or not, to virtually dodging with ease most of resolved Ichigo's blows (Which isn't in itself impressive but considering the lack of feats from both sides I'm taking what I can get), and from a high power getsuuga leaving a nasty scar on him to doing virtually nothing (Granted level of powers were involved, but Ichigo upgraded to so I'm calling that one) Similarly when the bloody hell did we see Ulquiorra actually fight? Know what he did? Block a shikai energy strike from Urahara. Not among the most impressive of feats considering Hierro.
Grimmjaw dodged Ichigo fairly easily as well...and whether in HM or in the real world, Ichigo had trouble keeping up with Grimmjaw until he put the mask on. And I've already noted that we actually haven't seen much from the Espada in both regions to gauge what the improvement was, but at the least, Grimmjaw didn't seem to get much stronger.


Also Hitsugaya friggin wrecked Luppi. Couldn't beat him? Luppi was outright saved, hit so bad he was literally knocked out of release. Granted who knows what would happen in a straight fight though, but in terms of how it went the winner was clear.
Are you kidding me? He got knocked out of the fight, and then had tons of prep time to hit him with a finisher...that didn't finish him.


Further, we have an outright statement via plot that HM boosts hollows and Shinigami considerably by just being there, hollows apparently getting it a little moreso given things like Chad and the same statement saying that even mook hollows could be dangerous thanks to said boost (Meaning it's literally INSANE). This of course means that, roughly speaking, the scales are about right, give or take a few slants due to extra boosts to hollows. It's the collateral that's affected however.
Again, I recognize that statement was made; I'm questioning the extent of the boost. You guys are acting like Ulqui would go from outspeeding resolved Ichigo easily to getting outsped by Omaeda, lol...the gap from 4-1 was never stated to be that ridiculous; in fact, the gap from 5 to 4 was what was spoken on, and we could pretty much see that from how badly Ichigo was getting pwned. It's the fact that we didn't see much separating the top 4 that makes Ulquiorra fans (such as myself) think that R2 is definitely strong enough to make him jump at least one rank.

It's not like I don't get your point, I'm just not seeing the evidence that the powers shown would be extremely weakened by virtue of being in SS rather than HM. Maybe it's just because I like Ulquiorra more than WW, but I'm just not seeing this huge gap between WW and the Espada, much less the top 4.

Raizen
February 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
I think WW would win... in fact I'm pretty sure if they were to fight, WW would dominate.

The only reason ulqui seemed to impressive was because he was fighting ichigo. And that guy's powers fluctuate so much it's ridiculous.

WW had the power to own kensei in bankai as well as fight against yamamoto somewhat. His regeneration skills are much more impressive than ulqui, as well as his speed.

I see WW poking a whole in Ulqui's chest and then going "uwwahhhuuwhaa".

There is nothing to assume ulqui is stronger than his rank, which is #4

BaddAzzKenpachi74
February 22, 2011, 02:41 PM
Yes,Zangetsu lent ALL his power to Ichigo,yet since Bankai increases reiatsu by a factor of ten(around this value)and the Mask gives another healthy boost in reiatsu,I really doubt that that Ichigo Shikai which fought against Kenpachi could have gained the same amount of reiatsu as a Bankai and a Mask would give.

We'll the manga currently proves otherwise considering Ichigo with Bankai and Mask BARELY beat Grimmjow while Kenpachi pwned Nnoatra (and Yammi) once he got serious.

overall you really should not read to much into powerlevels as far as Bleach goes and use examples from SS to try to prove your point since its already been established that Ichigo's fights in SS mean crap when comparing powerlevels in the current chapters as proven in the manga.

Random101
February 22, 2011, 04:21 PM
You are aware that Ichigo cut through Yammy, right? That and energy attacks apparently don't have the same effect as sword slashes; we saw Ichigo cut through Grimmjaw like butter in HM, but even when Grimmjaw was one-armed and weakened, GT didn't cut through him.
Databook says: This is the grim result of underestimating his opponents power.

I'd have agreed with you, hell, I held Grimmjaw's hierro as stronger than Yammi's before that. But that's Kubo's poor attempt at explaining. Secondly the point of that is that Ichigo's slashes tend to do more damage than Getsuugas. You know, since he cut through Grimmjaw rather easily in their final fight, but a Point Blank Vizard Getsuuga did nothing.


While I think Yama is God, those punches didn't harm him...maybe it's just similar to when KTM backhanded Tousen for me; if you hit Yama hundreds of times, I would hope that you do more than some bruises (which I actually think were more from the initial toss into buildings, but I don't have the chapter handy)
He went from relatively alright to bruised and bleeding. Given what we're working with here, frankly that's amazing feat wise.


Grimmjaw dodged Ichigo fairly easily as well...and whether in HM or in the real world, Ichigo had trouble keeping up with Grimmjaw until he put the mask on. And I've already noted that we actually haven't seen much from the Espada in both regions to gauge what the improvement was, but at the least, Grimmjaw didn't seem to get much stronger.
Actually real world Ichigo was getting hits in, they just weren't doing anything. Before the Vizard limit boned him, and even after that frankly Grimmjaw never outright dodged. He just took it. Hence point remains.

Secondly I would agree that this change is arbitrary and likely forgotten by Kubo anyway, however point remains that it was stated to give mooks a boost to danger level for roughly VC level combatants and that it seems to shift to hollows more. I'm not remotely saying Ulquiorra is VC level in any respect, save sealed being slow enough for Orihime to react to obviously. I'm saying that he both got a boost and isn't as impressive as people like to make him out to be.

Course on the other side of the coin he isn't as impotent as others like to make him out to be either. He has two main flaws: His regen is only good for limbs and is worthless for organs, and his Lance's aim sucks hard. Other than that his rank at 4 is more or less deserved even ignoring it stupidly being a Reiatsu thing.


Are you kidding me? He got knocked out of the fight, and then had tons of prep time to hit him with a finisher...that didn't finish him.
Are you kidding me? He faked a dive there. He was completely unwounded when he got back and took virtually no damage. Hell, even his ice defense held up from that attack. I mean seriously it's literally spelled out for you. Entire thing was a well thought out, if incredibly lame fight wise strategy.

Similarly he didn't finish him because dude was outright rescued. Just being trapped in ice doesn't kill you that fast, which is personally why I question HH's seeming worthlessness damage wise. Frankly it's stunning he was as wounded as he was just being in there that long.


You guys are acting like Ulqui would go from outspeeding resolved Ichigo easily to getting outsped by Omaeda
Actually he kinda would. Unless you want to tell me Orihime is faster than Omaeda, as she was perfectly able to react where Ichigo wasn't. Course release wise that'd go out the window, and he'd screw him over anyway being significantly better at fighting.

UchihaHunter
February 22, 2011, 04:36 PM
Databook says: This is the grim result of underestimating his opponents power.

I'd have agreed with you, hell, I held Grimmjaw's hierro as stronger than Yammi's before that. But that's Kubo's poor attempt at explaining. Secondly the point of that is that Ichigo's slashes tend to do more damage than Getsuugas. You know, since he cut through Grimmjaw rather easily in their final fight, but a Point Blank Vizard Getsuuga did nothing.
That's actually my point...Grimmjaw didn't get some ridiculous power boost, and I don't think Yammy was really all that much weaker (at least not to an extent not explained by his method of powering up)


He went from relatively alright to bruised and bleeding. Given what we're working with here, frankly that's amazing feat wise.
I have to re-read the fight, I don't remember completely, but either way, it's more of a nitpick than anything else.


Actually real world Ichigo was getting hits in, they just weren't doing anything. Before the Vizard limit boned him, and even after that frankly Grimmjaw never outright dodged. He just took it. Hence point remains.
I'm talking about when they met initially, the fight where Ichigo bruised Grimmjaw. Grimmjaw kept up with him pretty easily and beat him up pretty bad; it wasn't until he had the mask on that he outperformed Grimmjaw


Secondly I would agree that this change is arbitrary and likely forgotten by Kubo anyway, however point remains that it was stated to give mooks a boost to danger level for roughly VC level combatants and that it seems to shift to hollows more. I'm not remotely saying Ulquiorra is VC level in any respect, save sealed being slow enough for Orihime to react to obviously. I'm saying that he both got a boost and isn't as impressive as people like to make him out to be.
Since it was stated by Kubo, I can't disagree with him getting a boost, I just don't think it was something that was so vast that we can consider regular Ulquiorra as trash compared to Espada 1-3


Course on the other side of the coin he isn't as impotent as others like to make him out to be either. He has two main flaws: His regen is only good for limbs and is worthless for organs, and his Lance's aim sucks hard. Other than that his rank at 4 is more or less deserved even ignoring it stupidly being a Reiatsu thing.
Eh, limb regen is pretty good, actually...I think we underestimate it because he states that he can't regen his organs...at the end of the day though, he was still able to get up, move at high speed, and use his killer tech...he obviously can go on for a little even with his organs shot.


Are you kidding me? He faked a dive there. He was completely unwounded when he got back and took virtually no damage. Hell, even his ice defense held up from that attack. I mean seriously it's literally spelled out for you. Entire thing was a well thought out, if incredibly lame fight wise strategy.
He couldn't react in time, he couldn't block, he basically said his Bankai got nuked...just that since he can use all of the water in the atmosphere, it's easy for him to regenerate it. If Luppi actually follows through with his attacks, are you telling me that Hitsugaya still wins that fight? If so, we must have seen completely different fights.


Actually he kinda would. Unless you want to tell me Orihime is faster than Omaeda, as she was perfectly able to react where Ichigo wasn't. Course release wise that'd go out the window, and he'd screw him over anyway being significantly better at fighting.
Ok, so Orihime also reacts faster than Bankai Ichigo and sealed Ulquiorra now? I think it's pretty obvious that Kubo was trying to show Inoue's desire to protect Ichigo. I would hope that no one is going to argue that Inoue can react faster than Ichigo...or someone that was thoroughly outclassing Ichigo, who, we can remember completely wtfpwned Omaeda in his shikai with his base speed. I know Ichigo got nerfed, but that much? To the point that Omaeda is better? That had to have been a joke of some sort

Jackk
February 22, 2011, 04:39 PM
The notion that Orihime is faster than sealed Ulquiorra is seriously ridiculous, to say the least...

hajialibaig
February 22, 2011, 05:52 PM
I think WW would win... in fact I'm pretty sure if they were to fight, WW would dominate.

The only reason ulqui seemed to impressive was because he was fighting ichigo. And that guy's powers fluctuate so much it's ridiculous.

WW had the power to own kensei in bankai as well as fight against yamamoto somewhat. His regeneration skills are much more impressive than ulqui, as well as his speed.

I see WW poking a whole in Ulqui's chest and then going "uwwahhhuuwhaa".

There is nothing to assume ulqui is stronger than his rank, which is #4

What fluctuations? Ichigo was stronger than ever, in fact, he was strongest in the manga until that point. He held his own against Ulquiorra in Bankai alone, and overpowered him using the mask.

If anything, R1 Ulquiorra defeating such an opponent with extreme ease put Ulquiorra that much higher than everyone else. His R2 is out of this world as comments made by Ishida points to.

R2 Ulquiorrra > All arrancars.

Random101
February 22, 2011, 06:23 PM
I'm talking about when they met initially, the fight where Ichigo bruised Grimmjaw. Grimmjaw kept up with him pretty easily and beat him up pretty bad; it wasn't until he had the mask on that he outperformed Grimmjaw
Kept up with is entirely different from dodging. Grimmjaw HM was more or less running circles around Bankai Ichigo, brief as that encounter was (One bit has him dance around his cero and strike Ichigo from behind, actually nailing him in a block for a bit). Bankai Ichigo was more or less running circles around him in the human world (In that he completely dodge a strike and struck at him from behind in one scene), though because obviously he was actually reacting well and couldn't do jack to him, he got beat anyway. You're arguing reactions and overall speed vs. Just reactions.


Eh, limb regen is pretty good, actually...
It would be good... were losing limbs a more common thing. Granted story telling wise issues crop up in this regard, but name me those who regularly outright lose limbs in a fight with a more or less even opponent (As in one who couldn't just as easily cut off his head and end it anyway). Nnoitra who got caught by surprise by Kenpachi is the only one I can come up with honestly. Limb lose in itself isn't as common as it otherwise should be, hence take a person down has pretty much always fallen to organ blows anyway. >>


He couldn't react in time, he couldn't block, he basically said his Bankai got nuked...just that since he can use all of the water in the atmosphere, it's easy for him to regenerate it. If Luppi actually follows through with his attacks, are you telling me that Hitsugaya still wins that fight? If so, we must have seen completely different fights.
Faked a dive is the point you are missing. Bankai nuked? When it fell it was intact save a few chunks that got knocked off from that strike (large chunks admittedly, but the entire thing is still intact to say the least before he fell under the trees). Couldn't block? He received no damage whatsoever from the strike, when he came back he was literally in prime condition. It never actually touched him.

I'm not saying he wins in a straight up fight with anywhere NEAR the same amount of ease. I'm saying he took the tactically valid, if boring, decision of not bothering trying and potentially getting surprised by any sort of special moves he might happen to have, and instead fake a dive and waste him in one shot. Which he did. So well in fact that had he not been rescued it would have been over for him.


Ok, so Orihime also reacts faster than Bankai Ichigo and sealed Ulquiorra now?
No. She reacts faster than Bankai Ichigo can react, and faster than Ulquiorra can strike. Different things entirely.

Ulquiorra's reaction feats... Don't exist honestly. I mean he got blindsided by Grimmjaw, though admittedly it was in a smokescreen hence his getting nailed there actually makes sense as he couldn't really see him coming, thus not a blitz. Hard to judge where he'd be even sealed to be honest.


Inoue can react faster than Ichigo...or someone that was thoroughly outclassing Ichigo, who, we can remember completely wtfpwned Omaeda in his shikai with his base speed. I know Ichigo got nerfed, but that much? To the point that Omaeda is better? That had to have been a joke of some sort
Now you realize why I'm pissed at the HM arc. I would have invalidated said scene as a fluke, or indeed a mere quirk of her being in the right place to see it where he couldn't.

Only we specifically see him notice it. He literally was able to see the strike coming, he just couldn't react at all. He was completely incapable of moving his sword in time before it would have taken his head, or at least injured him pretty bad. Throw it on top of the load of other BS and yeah, I'm not amused to say the least.

El Samurai Guapo
February 22, 2011, 06:49 PM
What fluctuations? Ichigo was stronger than ever, in fact, he was strongest in the manga until that point. He held his own against Ulquiorra in Bankai alone, and overpowered him using the mask.

If anything, R1 Ulquiorra defeating such an opponent with extreme ease put Ulquiorra that much higher than everyone else. His R2 is out of this world as comments made by Ishida points to.

R2 Ulquiorrra > All arrancars.

With the possible exception of Starrk, I agree.

AlB
February 23, 2011, 01:26 AM
What fluctuations? Ichigo was stronger than ever, in fact, he was strongest in the manga until that point. He held his own against Ulquiorra in Bankai alone, and overpowered him using the mask.

If anything, R1 Ulquiorra defeating such an opponent with extreme ease put Ulquiorra that much higher than everyone else. His R2 is out of this world as comments made by Ishida points to.

R2 Ulquiorrra > All arrancars.

wow dude, take it easy! do you have any evidence to back up anything you said?
Ulq himself stated that among Espada he was only 4th strongest no matter what. And remember that WW wasn't even ranked among the Espada. And defeating HM Ichigo in Bankai + mask in not very phenomenal feat you know. Even Grim beat the crap out of him, and if the kitty had put some brain into his fight here and there he would have won lol. Stating that Ichigo was the strongest is ridiculous, and claiming that Ulq is strongest Arrancar out of the blue is also ridiculous. You think Ichigonator would be able to do any shit to Barragan, Stark and WW?

daman246
February 23, 2011, 01:30 AM
ulruquira wins to the fact that ww cant fight at all his just a kid that likes to throw punches at everything he sees it only works on ppl weaker than him in speed wise

freshseth83
February 23, 2011, 05:27 AM
^Yeah, me too!

Not thinking about that statement at all. Since Ulquiorra's words say a completely different thing. Ichigo saw his number 4, and he said even if you do defeat me, there's 3 more espada that are more powerful than me.

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Ulquiorra was RANKED #4! Even KUBO said this rank in the DATABOOK. Ulquiorra is a fan favorite cus of his emo look and speech and his little batman wings. WW doesn't need a fanbase to own emo-bat in a brawl. All he needs is, aaaaahhhhhh-ooooooohhhh! Ressureccion- demolish Ulquiorra!

xXan
February 23, 2011, 07:57 AM
^Yeah, me too!

Not thinking about that statement at all. Since Ulquiorra's words say a completely different thing. Ichigo saw his number 4, and he said even if you do defeat me, there's 3 more espada that are more powerful than me.

Doesn't get much clearer than that. Ulquiorra was RANKED #4! Even KUBO said this rank in the DATABOOK. Ulquiorra is a fan favorite cus of his emo look and speech and his little batman wings. WW doesn't need a fanbase to own emo-bat in a brawl. All he needs is, aaaaahhhhhh-ooooooohhhh! Ressureccion- demolish Ulquiorra!

First off WW does not even have a number ... So how are you comparing the number 4 thing to WW? Second U was nr.4 only with his nr1 form not the second one. The second one not even Aizen got to see it. Also they are numbered not by fighting ability or something like that but by reiatsu. If you have more of it you are in a better place.

UchihaHunter
February 23, 2011, 08:57 AM
You mean lack of reaction feats such as...blocking Urahara's shikai attack from close-range when it was meant for Yammy? Granted, Urahara wasn't going all out, but I'm pretty sure we gathered from Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo that Ulquiorra doesn't walk around fighting at full power.

And again, how many times did Ulquiorra do something explicitly to bring Ichigo's morale down? How many opportunities did he have to just kill Ichigo but instead decided to take his confidence away? That is just what dude does, it's made even more obvious by the stupid aspects of death thing that was brought up. There would be no point of giving him an R2, no point of having Ishida say that his reiatsu was ridiculous at that point (especially when he had already released his R1 that was too powerful for Las Noches) if R2 didn't at least make him jump one rank.

Also, Ichigo pwned Grimmjaw as soon as he actually got serious. He stopped his one attack with one hand, and then he sliced through his ultimate technique, despite Ichigo not being at full power at all. Then, it was made obvious that he had leveled up since that fight when he went to fight Ulquiorra, and he couldn't even dodge Ulquiorra's attack! Then, his strongest attack did nothing to Ulquiorra at all, while Cero Oscuras broke his mask, lol

Considering Barragan's hax ability, I'm not sure what Stark or Ulquiorra could do, but at the very least, I don't see Harribel beating Ulquiorra in R2 when she couldn't even close the gap on Hitsugaya. Last I checked, SS is rich in spirit particles as well, and FKT was in SS, no? Even supposing they weren't at 120% max power, I don't think they were severely weakened by being in FKT.

Also, considering that Hollow Vizard Ichigo pwned Byakuya despite Ichigo's bones breaking...I think Ichigonator would have done considerable damage to any captain and any espada...dude was pretty hax. His standard Cero repelled a Cero that's implied to be two levels higher than a regular Cero...and he broke an attack with his bare hands that was pretty damn powerful. R2 went from wtfpwning Ichigo to getting wtfpwned in two seconds, lol

kkck
February 23, 2011, 09:03 AM
Wonderweiss is 77 or something so he technically is a numero. Anyways, the databook does not include stuff nor revelations about ulquiorra from after he revealed his number so it can hardly be useful to discuss things after that, specially if did not provide an acceptable description of what segunda is.

Takahashi
February 23, 2011, 10:17 AM
You mean lack of reaction feats such as...blocking Urahara's shikai attack from close-range when it was meant for Yammy? Granted, Urahara wasn't going all out, but I'm pretty sure we gathered from Ulquiorra vs. Ichigo that Ulquiorra doesn't walk around fighting at full power.

The attack fired was of equal strength to Sealed Yammy's Cero, not that impressive.


And again, how many times did Ulquiorra do something explicitly to bring Ichigo's morale down? How many opportunities did he have to just kill Ichigo but instead decided to take his confidence away? That is just what dude does, it's made even more obvious by the stupid aspects of death thing that was brought up. There would be no point of giving him an R2, no point of having Ishida say that his reiatsu was ridiculous at that point (especially when he had already released his R1 that was too powerful for Las Noches) if R2 didn't at least make him jump one rank.

There is a point, he fought the main character, which gives him an automatic jump in hype and flashiness.


Also, Ichigo pwned Grimmjaw as soon as he actually got serious. He stopped his one attack with one hand, and then he sliced through his ultimate technique, despite Ichigo not being at full power at all. Then, it was made obvious that he had leveled up since that fight when he went to fight Ulquiorra, and he couldn't even dodge Ulquiorra's attack! Then, his strongest attack did nothing to Ulquiorra at all, while Cero Oscuras broke his mask, lol

He took out the 6th, obviously the 4th is going to give him trouble. Even when Ulq was only 100% undeniably number 4 (first release) he still trashed him.

No comparisons can be made when the transformation shows us no new results. Think Freeza, how much stronger is his 3rd form compared to his 4th? He kicked their asses, transformed for the hell of it, and kicked their asses some more. The extent of the jump in power is completely indeterminable.


Considering Barragan's hax ability, I'm not sure what Stark or Ulquiorra could do, but at the very least, I don't see Harribel beating Ulquiorra in R2 when she couldn't even close the gap on Hitsugaya. Last I checked, SS is rich in spirit particles as well, and FKT was in SS, no? Even supposing they weren't at 120% max power, I don't think they were severely weakened by being in FKT.

Hitsugaya has the fan girls, he has as much a chance of dying as Ichigo, obviously Halibel, or anyone else for that matter, was never going to beat him. Also, SS has spirit particles, but HM has much more, Ishida says so himself. Any performance in HM should be taken with a grain of salt.


Also, considering that Hollow Vizard Ichigo pwned Byakuya despite Ichigo's bones breaking...I think Ichigonator would have done considerable damage to any captain and any espada...dude was pretty hax.

It's implied it's powerful because it looked like Aizen's form. Does it really matter how strong it was though? It trashed Ulq, I'd imagine it would do the same to many people, but the fact that Ulq only managed to take it down via cheap shot means nothing, see Hisagi/Tousen.



His standard Cero repelled a Cero that's implied to be two levels higher than a regular Cero...and he broke an attack with his bare hands that was pretty damn powerful. R2 went from wtfpwning Ichigo to getting wtfpwned in two seconds, lol

I like the Hollow form and all, but I'd like Ichigo as a character a lot more if he didn't rely so much on it :darn

SaintSheik
February 23, 2011, 10:31 AM
I really hope that Inoue > Bankai Ichigo in "reaction speed" isn't a serious argument just because a single event for the sake of the plot..As it stands, Ulquiorra is literally a mid tier Espada whose true purpose was revealed to be one of Aizen's pawns in Ichigo's development.

Wonderweiss was powerful enough to back up the top three Espada, who Ulquiorra stated were above him, and was able to face off against Vaizards and captains, including Bankai Kensei and the Captain-Commander himself.

That and it was implied that Aizen knew about R2 as well, which by the way, is terribly overrated seeing how released Ulquiorra when from dominating Ichigo to dominating Ichigo with no shirt on.

Random101
February 23, 2011, 11:12 AM
You mean lack of reaction feats such as...blocking Urahara's shikai attack from close-range when it was meant for Yammy?
What you mean when he was a couple of feat away and the travel time for said blast isn't that good? That's not particularly telling of anything to say the least.


There would be no point of giving him an R2, no point of having Ishida say that his reiatsu was ridiculous at that point (especially when he had already released his R1 that was too powerful for Las Noches) if R2 didn't at least make him jump one rank.
Uh no. The point of his second release was to show Ichigo he lost to him when he wasn't even at full power yet. Whether it raises him any ranks at all or keeps him the same is completely irrelevant to that purpose. Granted I do happen to think he manages to top Harribel thanks to it, particularly since they're ranked by Reiatsu, but I have heavy doubts he tops Starrks "I Kill Weak ones just by being there" with it, and regardless of that Barragon and Starrk both utterly own him combat wise, Starrk due to sheer overwhelming attack and movement speed, and Barragon because single unconcentrated blasts aren't going to be enough to kill him, hell possibly even reach him despite how huge Lanza is.

Of course he utterly owns Yammi though. Possibly in first release depending how well the lance in that state works.

To be honest though, Ulquiorra's second form actually served just one important point that was probably the sole reason it was created anyway. It gave him an actually decent looking release. Seriously, his first release looked outright stupid. I mean we get all these epic looking monstrosities up to this point with highly intriguing ways to use what they'd been given, and then you just leave us a dude with a toga and wings? LAME. Second release has him looking like a friggin epic looking Gargoyle however.

Just goes to show only Starrk can pull off the pimp to say the least.


Also, Ichigo pwned Grimmjaw as soon as he actually got serious. He stopped his one attack with one hand, and then he sliced through his ultimate technique, despite Ichigo not being at full power at all.
Uh no he didn't. Even after that, and despite the massive wound he managed to inflict on Grimmjaw, he was still getting tossed around by said Ultimate technique, only barely managing to break through in the end there thanks to resolve. Granted however the jist of your point is valid regardless. Ichigo was clearly down the entire fight resolve wise and they were roughly even regardless until that point.


Then, his strongest attack did nothing to Ulquiorra at all, while Cero Oscuras broke his mask, lol
If by strongest you mean his only unique (OH WAIT) attack, then that's valid. Otherwise Getsuuga sucks. Seriously. His normal slashes more often than not do more damage than that move ever did when he gets those hits in. I point to that same Getsuuga doing nothing to Grimmjaw point blank in their final bout while a slash was actually getting through his armor even before resolve boost.


I think Ichigonator would have done considerable damage to any captain and any espada
Problem with Ichinator is that it stands around to often and is incapable of thought. This means people like Shunsui would be highly advantaged against it "You can't call a color? Oh what a shame.", and Yamamoto can just WTFPWN per usual. Ulquiorra himself managed to technically pull a draw because of its stupidity, though in turn his own stupidity got himself owned that bad in the first place.

It might do damage if it actually plays to its advantages sure... but doing so's the issue. Wonderwiess at least keeps on the offensive more often than not, least when released anyway. Ichinator literally stood around half the time doing nothing.


I really hope that Inoue > Bankai Ichigo in "reaction speed" isn't a serious argument just because a single event for the sake of the plot..As it stands, Ulquiorra is literally a mid tier Espada whose true purpose was revealed to be one of Aizen's pawns in Ichigo's development.
It wouldn't be... were it the only case of this happening. As it stands it's just the most stupid in a long line of horrid speed feats, barely topping Ichigo being completely incapable of reacting to and doing anything against tree dude's mook squad that Rukia was able to keep up with and defeat. Compound that with a complete lack of speed feats anywhere else in the arc, and Byakuya clearly keeping up with an espada blatantly faster than Grimmjaw without bankai, and you have a hard case to argue to say the least.
Edit:

While I'm at it:


Last I checked, SS is rich in spirit particles as well, and FKT was in SS, no?
Actually FKT was located in the real world. There was a discussion on this a while back, but to be perfectly honest it's HEAVILY unlikely the buildings were made with spirit particles, at it completely negates the entire purpose of replicating the city if the people outside can't freaking see anything, meaning the spirit density should be in real world territories, or maybe slightly higher. Meaning nowhere in the same ballpark. Course how much is indeterminable either way, it's just that that's the way it probably is.

Random101
February 23, 2011, 11:25 AM
Starrk's literally too fast. Barragon owns, plain and simple, Unlike Ulquiorra's his move can actually hit and is damn fast.

Wonderwiess I'll admit is hard to argue. Blunt force is still blunt force, and there's no telling what that'd do to him without knowing his defense.

Which requires knowing the power behind the lance he negated, which is also unknown. And why the horn was cut so easily when it did jack barehanded. ETC...

Needless to say gathering feats on Ichinator is freaking annoying. Especially given the thing it fought is also indeterminable.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 23, 2011, 02:07 PM
El Samurai Guapo
How come Yammi is overrated? It's stated by the God of this manga that Yammi is Cero Espada (the strongest) and Ulquiorra is only Quatro and the God's name is Kubo, so I can't understand where actually Yammi overrated?


Hystzen


Ulq is #4 reiastu wise but ability wise he might have chance doing damage to higher espada
In fact I think it's not that relevant. Rukia also has quite an interesting power, but actually she couldn't do anything to Grimjow. The same goes to Ulquiorra and higher Espada.:)

Raizen
February 23, 2011, 02:22 PM
What fluctuations? Ichigo was stronger than ever, in fact, he was strongest in the manga until that point. He held his own against Ulquiorra in Bankai alone, and overpowered him using the mask.

If anything, R1 Ulquiorra defeating such an opponent with extreme ease put Ulquiorra that much higher than everyone else. His R2 is out of this world as comments made by Ishida points to.

R2 Ulquiorrra > All arrancars.
No he wasn't. Aizen and gin both noticed how his strength was fluctuating. THen we have zangetsu and the hollow themselves noting that ichigo was not his same self.

Once ulqui released, he completely trashed ichigo. If we are to follow aizen's ranking, ulquiorra in R1 is weaker than halibel in R1. But if we see her match against toshiro and ulqui's match against ichigo, ulqui only looks impressive because ichigo sucked ass.

What exactly did R2 accomplish? He was already beating ichigo in R1.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 23, 2011, 02:29 PM
Raizen
It's just that people think about the characters sometimes on how they were impresive for them and not on how actually facts from manga and Databook tell.

UchihaHunter
February 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
@ Jorge

Since the last databook stopped at Ikkaku vs. Po (IIRC), I think it's logical for people to discuss Ulquiorra's R2 as possibly messing up the rankings. That and the databook stated the Espada were ranked by reiatsu, not by combat ability.

Edit: And again, it's noted in the manga that Ichigo had mastered hollowification by the end of the Grimmjaw fight...he had definitely gotten stronger since the last time he and Ulquiorra had fought. I still think that speedwise he wasn't at his former peak (although, people have stated that he simply doesn't do that because of the strain on his body, which is understandable), but in terms of overall power, the Ichigo that fought Ulquiorra the final time was stronger than any Ichigo in the HM arc up to that point. And Ulquiorra made that Ichigo look like a turtle...it was all Ichigo could do to just throw up a GT hoping to block Ulquiorra's attack, and he still lost part of his mask to it. I just don't see this enormous gap between 1 and 4 that people seem to be advocating, especially to the point that R2 becomes moot?

Raizen
February 23, 2011, 02:34 PM
@ Jorge

Since the last databook stopped at Ikkaku vs. Po (IIRC), I think it's logical for people to discuss Ulquiorra's R2 as possibly messing up the rankings. That and the databook stated the Espada were ranked by reiatsu, not by combat ability.
But the flow of the manga is that in a battle, reiatsu is most important.
Combat won't mean anything if u can't take out the opponent (ie ichigo vs yammi)

Jorge D. Dragon
February 23, 2011, 02:44 PM
UchihaHunter
Actually Raizen already answered th question, but I would like to mention again that actually there wasn't any fight in the manga exept the fight between Tousen and Hisagi that ended with the win of the weaker opponent. It's the rule of this manga: "If you have more reiatsu than your opponent you'll win no matter what".

Random101
February 23, 2011, 03:31 PM
you all always say that ceros suck, and basically that Starrk's best attack is the wolves, correct? Yet...Love and Rose don't have hierro, but their organs weren't splattered, no?
First off A cero sucks. Huge difference. This is for three reasons:

1. Exceedingly obvious and relatively lengthy charge time and well known spread. This means anyone with instant movement who is not sleeping or a moron knows what's coming and can get out the way.

2. A single cero rarely has enough power to do more than char for opponents of equal levels, save obviously when plot randomly demands it (See Luppi and Ichigo's chest).

3. A cero can only be fired one at a time after the charge.

Starrk Negates all of those by being able to spam add nasuem in an instant while layering them on top of each other. He doesn't have a lot of killing power with just one sure, and would take longer to kill things than Barragon would but the scary thing about him is that the damage stacks. That's why he's incredibly dangerous. And this isn't even getting into the seeking regenerating unstoppable wolf missiles he can also spam add nauseum, nor the energy weapons he can use.

And to top this off, when he's paying attention he's completely alert and fast enough to dodge instantly when his cero's are reflected at him out of bloody nowhere. The reason Starrk is scary is his sheer offensive and movement speed even when, honestly, he's barely trying. And when he actually does he more often than not vanishes from even experienced captain's sights. See Love completely losing sight of him even with mask for that wtfery. Starrk, needless to say, is Fast. Ulquiorra simply does not compare, and there's even a direct feat comparison with Ichigo to compound that.


Soi Fon's bankai DID do damage to Barragan, correct?
Actually it had to be compacted to even do a dent to the dude. Ulquiorra doesn't have the means to do the same, and honestly, in terms of power density Soifon's bankai has a hell of a lot more packed into the overall area of the blast than the Lance. Granted if you condense the entirety of the lance's explosion down to the size of her blast they'd probably be a hell of a lot closer, frankly I'd even say the lance exceeds it by a far bit, but the shockwave she produces FAR exceeds that caused by the lance.

Jorge D. Dragon
February 23, 2011, 03:35 PM
El Samurai Guapo
It's just plain simple for Bleach that if you have more reiatsu you can defend from the attack from the person with less reiatsu. Abilities are relevant in the fights of persons with practically similar ammounts of reiatsu. It was stated by Kubo through Aizen. That was why Aizen was stomping Captains. It was why Gin said that of course Kyoka Suigetsu is great, but Aizen's overall strength is way above most Captains. He mostly had to use one swing to take down the majority of his opponents in FKT. That says that he has way more reiatsu.

Of course abilities can play role when one is just letting someone hit as he please like Aizen did during his evolution, but normally the opponents move, defend and fight back and so there is clearly a difference if you actually can inflict damage with your attack and in this moment comes the ammount of reiatsu. It's like with Kidou. Tessai was better in using Kidou, but his Hadou 91 was stopped by Dankou from Aizen, cause he had more reiatsu, so Tessai's abilities don't matter.:)

UchihaHunter
February 23, 2011, 04:16 PM
I guess Hacchi had more reiatsu than Barragan then...who knew?

Edit: The point is that the only times that reiatsu is exceedingly important is when there is a huge power gap...when the two are on similar levels, it falls to combat ability, plot, etc. When have we seen WW (or any of the top 3 Espada) have a reiatsu that completely craps on Ulquiorra's? That is my point.

Edit #2: @Random101 - Starrk is interesting because I actually believe that as you stated, he wasn't really trying his hardest, and never really had to, up until when he took the critical shot. I see your points regarding him, and I agree to a certain extent, but...when he did his speed feat in HM against Ichigo and Kenpachi, it was when both were battle-worn, and Ichigo didn't have his mask on. Starrk is definitely fast, and he was still in his sealed state, but it's not like Vizard Ichigo was able to react to Ulquiorra's attacks either. If they had an extended battle, or if Starrk even showed that type of speed consistently, I would argue that he was the fastest of the all the Espada by far, but...maybe it's because he fought Shunsui for so long, maybe it's because he's lazy, but he didn't really crap on Shunsui, Love, and Rose in the speed department. I understand your points though; if this was Starrk vs. WW, I'd probably concede it and say Starrk wins, hahaha (just being honest)

It also didn't seem like Starrk could spam those wolves infinitely, seeing as how he didn't, IIRC.

And regarding Soi Fon...her bankai damaged him when he didn't have time to respira it, right? My point was that Ulquiorra does have strong attacks (Cero Oscuras, LDR) that he can use one after another, and that he can move around...Barragan only had to deal with one strong attack (damn strong attack) from one direction. That's part of why I think so many people can see Starrk beating him; since he can use sonido and has the super cero machine gun...

I'll try to post more later.

Random101
February 23, 2011, 04:41 PM
Ichigo himself wasn't battle worn in that scene. It was literally right after he got healed to full, Orhime just got through with him and was about to go to Kenpachi. In fact the Ichigo there was the exact same Ichigo who would flash to Ulquiorra and then proceed to fight him not a few minutes later, in verse time of course, so even if he was worn at all he would have been equally worn by the time he got there since he did nothing overly strenuous between nor got healed at all in the meantime. Meaning the exact same Ichigo who fought Ulquiorra and was more or less able to see him move at a serious speed (Though obviously not react to him) was also the same Ichigo who could not in fact see Starrk move at all even when he was weighed down with Orihime.

Also the problem with Ulquiorra there is two fold. There's either a huge spam time between Ceros, miniscule by normal means sure, but in the time he has to charge a BC is time Barragon can fire at him while he can't move, and Respiera's a HELL of a lot faster, or his Lanza misses. I do hold Starrk as able to win, barely, but this is literally because he could quite simply keep firing forever and not let up for a single moment between shots.

Ulquiorra is honestly a caster, best when he keeps back, charges up his attacks a bit and lets them fly when he can when they're done charging up. Stark however is a goddamn Machine who can keep it up for virtual ages. Granted Ulquiorra's attacks probably have more area/power in them most of the time, but it's the time between firing that'll screw him over. Against someone who can both decay your attacks to nothing and divert singular blasts, someone like Starrk who can just keep brute forcing it is the way to go.

UchihaHunter
February 23, 2011, 10:25 PM
Two concessions to make:

1. I totally forgot that Hitsu's attack reverted Luppi! I still think Luppi wins if he follows through, but that just goes to show that Hitsugaya has powerful techs, he just needs more time and space than other Captains...I concede the point about the attack not working well though.

2. Ichigo was indeed fully healed by Orihime. However, he did react, he just couldn't reach him in time; a bit of a difference, but I'm still skeptical that Starrk's move wasn't just a technique of his. And your point still stands, technique or not, Starrk was worlds above Ichigo in speed; however, as soon as Ulquiorra actually got serious, Ichigo wasn't able to react to him without using his mask.


I actually agree about your points regarding Barragan; notice I never said that I thought Ulquiorra could beat Barragan most of the time, I just felt that he wouldn't get curbstomped, especially considering that Respira doesn't seem instant, and we've seen Ulquiorra regen enough of his lower half to still use Sonido.

I don't think we really saw Barragan get serious either...there's no point to him stopping his Respira onslaught on Hacchi and just letting Hacchi explain how he defeated him, hahaha. That being said, from what we've seen, Stark does have an advantage in that he can keep firing (although, it didn't seem like he could move and fire those thousands of shots, and I doubt that individual ceros from multiple directions would really harm Barragan)

Honestly, I think you agree with my main point; Ulquiorra doesn't get shat on by Espada 0-3, which is what others seem to be arguing. The reiatsu gap isn't on the same plane as Aizen vs. generic Captain class or something. All of this "reiatsu is everything" to the point that if you could quantify reiatsu, someone with a reiatsu level of 200 would 100% defeat someone with one of 195 makes no sense to me at all. If Tousen had actually gone for a head shot from the beginning, he probably beats Kenpachi. Ishida's reiatsu was higher than Mayuri's, but if he didn't get the antidote, he would have died and lost. Barragan's reiatsu was more than likely higher than Hacchi's, but he lost to his own ability. Character abilities do have a part to play in fights between those of similar levels, or else there really would be next to no point in having a special ability.


Edit: I could understand if Ulquiorra was #5, and his release could be performed legally under Las Noches' roof. But seeing as how he's past that threshold, I just don't why people are assuming his reiatsu level is garbage. I didn't see Soi Fon or Hitsugaya shaking in their boots at the reiatsu of Barragan and Harribel. It was the special abilities of Barragan and Harribel, in addition to Captain-class reiatsu, that made them dangerous.

Also, someone made a point earlier about Rukia not being able to damage Grimmjaw. Wtf? Rukia is a freaking VC-level shinigami at best, and Grimmjaw is an Espada...at the VERY LEAST, he's a mid-level Adjuchas arrancar. Personally, I think that puts him in Captain-class, I'm sure some of you all disagree, but comparing Rukia to Grimmjaw and using that comparison in relation to Ulquiorra vs. the top 4 Espada and WW is flawed, to say the least.

Random101
February 23, 2011, 10:45 PM
I actually do hold that. I don't think Ulquiorra is anywhere near good enough to reliably defeat the espada above him, save obviously Yammi in frankly a Curbstomp and Harribel with R2. However it's not like he can't put up a fight. Starrk would need time to take him down for one thing. Though he's a spamming god it's not like he can easily take someone down first shot. Particularly given he rarely tries to do so in the first place.

Barragon is about as close as it'd get to a curbstomp, and even that would require him to actually fight smart, which usually isn't the case. I still hold he'd win, but it could easily take a bit till he nails his torso.

Also:

although, it didn't seem like he could move and fire those thousands of shots
Actually he has been shown to move the gun's aim while using the machinegun tech. Add that he has two to fire from two directions at once and he's so damn fast that it's all to easy to just stop, move, (Ala avoiding Ukitake's cero reflection in the middle of a Submachinegun) and just aim and fire again even if he can't do it while sonidoing and that's just another reason why he's insanely scary.

Granted the deluge would likely slow down while moving, but he'd still be able to keep it coming regardless.

conn-man
February 24, 2011, 02:22 AM
I going with Ulquiorra. WW is at an advantage due to his speed, pure power and superior HSR, but I say ulquiorras intellect will keep him alive.

Ulquiorra is also very fast, imo fast enough to keep up with almost anyone. He also had a very 'straight for the throat' way of fighting that should give WW a tough time. He can use that beam sword in R1 and R2, Cero Oscuras is very reliable fire power that even WW wont be immune to. And maybe ulquiorra could even hit him with a Lanzla, WW doesn't keep any gaurd up nor use any hesitation.

Gran Maestro
February 24, 2011, 06:25 AM
All of this "reiatsu is everything" to the point that if you could quantify reiatsu, someone with a reiatsu level of 200 would 100% defeat someone with one of 195 makes no sense to me at all.

I think nobody suggests that. As the reiatsu difference increases, the probability of winning increases, this is what people say. Here is a formula for you which gives a better idea about the role of reiatsu. (Assume that you and your opponent know each other's abilities, otherwise things get a bit more complicated and we have to introduce new variables.)

A = your reiatsu, B = your opponent's reiatsu, k = coefficient of how your ability fares against your opponent's ability, p = your winning chances

p = 50 % * (A/B) * k

There's a disagreement about the relative role of "k" (= ability) in the equation. I think k is a number approximately between 0.8 and 1.2, which means "if your reiatsu is equal to your opponent's reiatsu, your winning chances is at least 40% and at most 60%, no matter what your opponent's ability is".

An example: A = Kira's reiatsu = 100, B = Hisagi's reiatsu = 140, k = relative power of Kira's ability against Hisagi's ability = 1.2 because Kira's shikai is (in Takahashi's words) the perfect counter against Hisagi's shikai

p = Kira's winning chances = 50 % * (100/140) * 1.2 = 43 %

If your reiatsu is 2.5-3 times your opponent's reiatsu, you always win no matter what your opponent's ability is.

The source of the disagreement is that some people gives much more weight to coefficent k. For example, you may think Ulquiorra can defeat Yammy all the time even if Yammy's reiatsu is stronger because Ulquiorra's LDR always connects against such a huge target. But in this case, saying "Bleach battles are battles of reiatsu" would be a horribly misguided statement, it means Kubo doesn't have a clue about his own manga. It should rather be "Bleach battles are battles of abilites, a good ability lets you win 100% of the time even against people with higher reiatsu". I don't believe this is the case and I believe Yammy can defeat Ulquiorra most of the time.

There's one big problem, we have no idea about the reiatsu level of manga characters, so we assume they're more or less equal and we focus on the abilities most of the time. In cases where we know there's a big reiatsu difference, like Tōsen vs Yumichika, most people say Tōsen can defeat Yumichika with his sealed sword regardless of Yumichika's ability.

Ok, after a long explanation about reiatsu and abilities, let me analyze Ulquiorra vs WW in this context. There are two ways an ability can be nullified:

1) Using overpowering reiatsu

2) Using an ability

WW extinguished RJ's fire using his own ability but if WW's reiatsu was below a certain degree, Yamamoto's overpowering reiatsu would negate WW's Extinguir ability. In that sense, Aizen had to make sure that the arrancar who was chosen to seal RJ had as much reiatsu as possible, otherwise Aizen's plan would be at unnecessary risk. This story concept and hints from manga characters imply that WW had the strongest reiatsu among arrancar. (perhaps except Yammy who could surpass WW under certain circumstances)

WW certainly has enough reiatsu to negate Ulquiorra's CO and LDR by using his scream, if you have enough power to negate RJ, you have the power to negate everything. He is also very fast, which means he also has the option to dodge anything Ulquiorra throws at him. WW's HSR is much better, so using LDR at close range hurts Ulquiorra himself more than it hurts WW. Ulquiorra's tail is useless against WW and if WW has enough speed to catch Yamamoto, Ulquiorra won't be escaping these hands. And then Ulquiorra gets reduced to a pulp under the sheer force of WW's continuous punches.

UchihaHunter
February 24, 2011, 09:04 AM
Firstly, I want to say, I'm not stupid, we already know that more reiatsu increases your chances of victory. However, I think we can agree that Kenpachi's reiatsu completely creams Tousen's reiatsu, but Tousen's bankai still worked on Kenpachi. He didn't take off his eyepatch, so who knows, maybe if he had done that, he could've broken the Bankai, but considering that 100 years prior Tousen was able to catch multiple Captains in it, I doubt that.

I don't think it's quite as simple as was implied, unless Shinji either has Yamamoto-level reiatsu, or Aizen is a lot more pedestrian than we thought, since Shinji's worked on Aizen as well. Kubo is fairly inconsistent with his presentation of reiatsu levels, and even abilities. Considering that Yamamoto obliterated WW, I would think that Yama's reiatsu still far surpasses WW's...I can agree that he wouldn't be able to negate RJ with VC-level reiatsu, but again, there's no evidence that his reiatsu was even close to Yama's. His attacks hardly grazed Yama, and he was in his max power state. When sealed, he was getting pushed around like a noob by Mashiro. WW was strong, but he wasn't anywhere near Yama's class, and I don't think his reiatsu had to be for his ability to work.

Ok, so you believe that Yammy can beat Ulquiorra most of the time. Can we extend that to Yammy can defeat Starrk most of the time? Or does beam spam and high speed now mean that Starrk can defeat Yammy most of the time, despite Yammy's higher reiatsu? This is my problem with it. Nearly no one wants to say that Yammy would beat Starrk most of the time, but they will say that Yammy would beat Ulquiorra most of the time. Actually, I don't even think I see people saying Yammy would beat Harribel or Barragan most of the time either, lol. We have never seen a huge power gap between those 5 Espada, 0-5, and especially not one that would make me think that Ulquiorra couldn't defeat WW. I'm not saying he comes in and overpowers WW, but he doesn't come in and get curbstomped by WW. Ulquiorra has pretty damn good speed himself; in base he completely outsped Bankai resolved Ichigo, and in R1, he made Vizard Ichigo look ridiculous. And again, even without half of his body, and his organs blown away by a Cero, dude still was able to use his best tech and Sonido. I don't see him instantly keeling over as soon as he gets punched.

And if you don't think anyone suggests that, I think you should look at the arguments being presented. Basically, 0 > 1 > 2, etc. 100% of the time is what I've been reading.

You also sorta danced around my point with Starrk's shooting. We saw him move his arm so that he could follow the opponent; my point was that he's not firing 1000 shots, then using Sonido and firing another 1000 shots from an entirely opposite direction, similar to Ichigo vs. Grimmjaw after Ichigo first obtained the mask; that makes it hard for me to think his cero machinegun would be what gets through Respira, since Barragan doesn't seem to have to move the way that Shunsui had to.

And again, I'm not arguing that abilities are always superior to reiatsu, nor am I arguing vice versa. I'm saying that both have a part to play in the battle, up until the point that either the ability is just too hax (Respira, KS), or the reiatsu is too powerful (Ichigo post-Dangai)

Gran Maestro
February 24, 2011, 09:31 AM
No, I don't mean WW's reiatsu was close to Yamamoto's or Shinji's reiatsu was close to Aizen's, your ability works on someone unless the reiatsu difference is overwhelming. For example, if Yamamoto's reiatsu is 1000, WW's ability wouldn't work on RJ unless WW's reiatsu was at least 400-500. (The numbers are arbitrary but I think you get the point.)

Yes, I believe Yammy could defeat Starrk most of the time because I believe Yammy was the strongest espada. Yammy was so strong that his monstrous cero (or 2-3 of them) would take down Starrk before Starrk's relatively tiny ceroes or wolves could finish Yammy off. Starrk was fast but he couldn't dodge Yammy forever, Byakuya couldn't, even with Kenpachi's help. Of course Starrk (and Ulquiorra) had a chance to defeat Yammy but IMO they were the underdogs in a possible fight.

IMO Yammy and Starrk could also defeat Barragan (again, most of the time) but we'll be going extremely off-topic if I explain why. Gin Kubo said "Even KS is not hax if strong reiatsu doesn't accompany it." Try to estimate the amount of reiatsu that powers an ability to understand how hax this ability really is. Give Barragan's respira to Omaeda, he still fails to defeat the captains because his respira won't be potent enough to age the attacks (fast enough) that would otherwise be harmless against Barragan.

My point is WW seems to be stronger than even Starrk, he is fast, he has some sort of negation ability, he has the best HSR in any arrancar, he has lots of arms which can be used for both defense and attack, it seems very hard for Ulquiorra to pull off a victory against such an opponent.

UchihaHunter
February 24, 2011, 12:53 PM
@Random101 - Again though, it's not like Barragan dies to a couple of ceros. If he could tank/age the majority of Soi Fon's attack even when enclosed, I don't think most of those ceros are surviving long enough to damage him. Like I said before, I think Starrk would win eventually, but I don't think he comes in, says "I'm the Primera and you're the Segunda, so your Respira doesn't work on me," and curbstomps Barragan.

I think we're kinda nitpicking at this point; we both think Starrk would beat Barragan, but we're differing in how long it would take. You also seem to think that Ulquiorra could beat the Espada above them, just not consistently/reliably, which I never really argued, just that I don't think he gets stomped by them due to being #4.

If someone thinks that WW can beat Starrk, there's pretty much no way to argue that any arrancar can beat WW. I can understand the points being made, I just disagree to a certain extent. WW probably would lay out Ulquiorra (again, I've never said that he wouldn't be able to damage Ulquiorra), but it takes a lot to take him out of the game permanently, and he WILL attack you from behind if he needs to. That's really what I think it comes down to; Ulquiorra will cheap shot you and has the regen necessary to survive from pretty bad injuries...he literally had just part of a torso remaining and he still fired off a major attack and used high-speed movement. I don't think we can sneeze at that.

I guess it doesn't really matter since the winner faces Aizen, no?


Edit: @Gran - As long as you think Yammy can defeat Starrk most of the time as well, I don't really have a problem with your argument. Like I said to Random101, I just think that WW doesn't have the followthrough necessary to take out someone with HSR as good as Ulquiorra's. I agree that a VC with Respira, KS, etc. wouldn't be much to deal with (otherwise Yumichika would be godly), but I don't think that WW's reiatsu >>>>>>> Ulquiorra's reiatsu. I honestly think that the top 5 and WW are all on a similar level. That's pretty much the center of our disagreements, as I see it.

Random101
February 24, 2011, 03:13 PM
If he could tank/age the majority of Soi Fon's attack even when enclosed, I don't think most of those ceros are surviving long enough to damage him.
Actually it's for that precise reason that the enclosed attack could reach him would make the cero's get to him. It would take a while, no one's doubting that since even layered those cero are going to be far weaker than her bankai, but enough cero's layered on top of each other fired constantly will eventually burn through the Respeira's ability, exactly how Soifon's bankai did in a much shorter timeframe during its explosion's duration, and eventually start laying waste to him. There's some kinda limit to how much the Respiera can age at once that you'd have to overwhelm, and explosive techs are actually pretty horrid for doing that since you can't really make them last more than a few seconds. No the case with Starrk. All he has to do is keep it up and focused on him long enough.

Which naturally given the sheer degree he can spam is entirely possible. The difference between his attack and Soifon's and Ulquiorra's is that his doesn't necessarily stop if he doesn't want it to.

Though moot point regardless, we're here for wonderwiess and Ulquiorra. As I said before though, if Wonderwiess is being a moron Ulquiorra clearly has a chance to take advantage of that and win. However if he's bringing his A-game, the dude's going to get wasted. Wonderwiess is extremely variable to say the least.

thornofcarrion
February 24, 2011, 11:47 PM
A hard call to make here. I want to vote for WW for his performance in FKT. But I am leaning towards Ulqi. This fight has to go right to the point where both of them have to rely on the big guns. At this point, WW has disadvantage. WW was solely created for the purpose to seal Yama's flame. His resurrection doesn't give him super abilities against Uqli. Ulqi can certainly match him in speed and power categories.

Raizen
February 25, 2011, 12:45 AM
A hard call to make here. I want to vote for WW for his performance in FKT. But I am leaning towards Ulqi. This fight has to go right to the point where both of them have to rely on the big guns. At this point, WW has disadvantage. WW was solely created for the purpose to seal Yama's flame. His resurrection doesn't give him super abilities against Uqli. Ulqi can certainly match him in speed and power categories.
Match him in speed? He was quick enough to surprise a senior captain... fast enough to intercept a blow from yama aimed toward aizen. WW is much quicker

And power, that isn't even a question. His negation abilities would make most of ulqui's abiltities moot

thornofcarrion
February 25, 2011, 12:51 AM
And power, that isn't even a question. His negation abilities would make most of ulqui's abiltities moot

Oh I see, refresh my memory a bit Raizen, was it said in the mange that WW can negate every zan's abilities or particularly Yama's zan ability. If the later is not a valid case, then WW may have a very good chance of winning it.

Tsukisama
February 25, 2011, 01:09 AM
It has only been explicitly said that WW was designed to negate Yamamoto's zanpakutou. Some people take that to mean that his negation abilities stop there.

There are others, however, who believe that he has some other, more general powers of negation as his scream has seemingly nullified Hitsugaya's ice prison and, if I remember correctly, Mashiro's cero.

Random101
February 25, 2011, 02:11 AM
He was outright stated to Negate Mashiro's cero. Hitsugaya's HH is a harder case to argue, a lot of things could have happened since nothing was outright stated, but bare minimum we know he at least can deal with Cero's to a certain degree.

Course I heavily doubt he can negate all of the Black Cero, but suffice to say it won't be nuking him either, with both that and his insane Regen as a buffer. And that reduces Ulquiorra to the bloody lance or Hand to Hand. Not a good thing honestly given the aim on that blows, and Wonderwiess bloody owns him in hand to hand (to hand to hand to hand to hand...).

xXan
February 25, 2011, 03:00 AM
Match him in speed? He was quick enough to surprise a senior captain... fast enough to intercept a blow from yama aimed toward aizen. WW is much quicker

And power, that isn't even a question. His negation abilities would make most of ulqui's abiltities moot

I said this before and i will say it again. That is not a good feat.
Real life MA guys can do that by moving the moment you arm your hand to attack. This is like he moves the moment you move your hand back before you strike forword. This is about anticipating the next move, WW was moving on instinct the moment Yama prepared his hand to strike Aizen. WW was not faster then Yama's hand.

This is not a real feat of speed, we don't even know the distance from WW to Aizen.

AlB
February 25, 2011, 12:11 PM
This is not a real feat of speed, we don't even know the distance from WW to Aizen.

But we do know Yama's distance from Aizen don't we ;)
http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/07

WW still managed to protect his master.
http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/08

Not a single speed feat in Bleach (save for Butterflaizen's and FGT Ichigo's) topples this one.

Add to that:
1. Ukitake's inability to follow bastard's movements
2. Urahara nearly taken off-guard
and we have all the evidence we need to safely assume that WW was among the fastest entities in Bleach Universe.

xXan
February 25, 2011, 05:03 PM
But we do know Yama's distance from Aizen don't we ;)
http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/07

WW still managed to protect his master.
http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/394/08

Not a single speed feat in Bleach (save for Butterflaizen's and FGT Ichigo's) topples this one.

Add to that:
1. Ukitake's inability to follow bastard's movements
2. Urahara nearly taken off-guard
and we have all the evidence we need to safely assume that WW was among the fastest entities in Bleach Universe.

I think you missed 99% of my post. If WW was let's say 1m from Aizen then he could intercept it easy. A punch is first armed back and then launch in X face. WW could very well anticipate it and move in. This is not a indication that WW is faster then Yama's fist.
How do you think real fighters can dodge punches? By moving there entire body faster then a punch? Or by anticipating...

As for Ukitake's again its irrelevant. He got backstabed (the attack was from behind) clear and simple. If you are going to tell me Ukitake is way slower then Mashiro i am defenetly going to laugh hard. Mashiro was punching him like he was nothing and having no probles keeping up with him, Kensei was even able to intercept 1 punch from this guy.
Ukitake was probably just baffled at that huge creature in front of him and WW just used that to his advantage.
Now if Kensei and Mashiro have no problem keeping up with him i am defenetly not going to belive Ukitake can't even comprehend the guy ...

And no, we defenetly don't have enough evidence to asume he is one of the fastest guys in bleach.
That would be guys/girls like:
Starrk, Aizen, Soifon, Youruchi ...

Raizen
February 25, 2011, 07:24 PM
Oh I see, refresh my memory a bit Raizen, was it said in the mange that WW can negate every zan's abilities or particularly Yama's zan ability. If the later is not a valid case, then WW may have a very good chance of winning it.
He negated mashiro's cero and arguably hitsu's ice prison as well

Tsukisama
February 25, 2011, 11:42 PM
With over 70% of the votes, Ulquiorra soars to victory! He shall advance on into Round 3. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny