PDA

View Full Version : Discussion What is making a Manga good for You?



Roflkopt3r
February 21, 2011, 03:34 PM
Hey,
there have been so many discussions out there about what manga is good. Constant bashing going on between fractions, be it OP fans, Naruto fanatics, the last defenders of Bleach, or people stating that whole demographics are good or bad.
However, one thing that seems clear to me by now: There is absolutely no universal, all-convincing formula what makes a "good" manga. Rather, discussions of "What manga is better?" easily gather dozens of pages of posts, often revolving around details at the later stages.
So:
Your personal opinion: What makes a manga good?
I'm searching for both subjective and, perhaps -if you think so- "objective" criteria.
My personal list probably would be way too long, so I'll restrain myself for now:


Plausibility/Realism
This is one of the key points deciding whether a manga can be good at all for me. If a manga seems absolutely not plausible, it almost always automatically failed for me. If a manga seems plausible, there are good odds that I might like it.
What I mean with this is not that I dislike all fantastic scenarios per se. Rather, I mean whether a world is plausible in itself. A few examples:

Good/Acceptable plausibility:
Berserk: Berserk starts in a rather "normal" world, before introducing demons. There are points like "How can Guts be that strong?", but usually not without like good possible explanations (here: Guts always used swords far beyond his size, even as a child, so he heavily trained very very early on). The skills of demons also have clearly set rules of what they can survive and what not.
Even though it is absolutely unlikely that someone would be able to swing around such a huge sword as Guts does, no matter how good he's trained and even if he would have more muscles than Guts, it is still ok. This is Guts' special ability, it is clearly defined beforehand.

Freesia: Freesia seems weird. The physics of the world seem just normal, no magic or so, mostly just normal gunfights. However, Kano unexpectedly evades bullets which were certain to hit him.
This is no inconsistency/unplausibility though. The scenario gives it that this is Kano's very own special ability, and it is clearly defined as his special trait, possible in the universe of Freesia.

Death Note: This manga is special. The protagonist himself actively searches for ways to "abuse" the given scenario! He's facing a set of rules in the universe of the Death Note, and a big part of the story is what the possibilities are, and how much Kira can bend the rules. This way it perfectly explains every detail of the ruleset.

Medium plausibility:
Naruto has a universe absolutely not realistic measured by our world. Yet it trys to be plausible within the rules of that universe. Naruto makes a huge amount of rules how ninjutsu and other special abilities work, how chakra is used and so on.
Kishimoto seems to make a very large effort in trying to always stick to those rules his scenario gives and not displaying something which doesn't fit in the world. However, he might have overstrained the possibilities and rules (because ther are so many, which is why there are many possibly unplausible situations. A popular example: Some characters seem to not use certain skills in certain situations, although it appears like they could easily defeat their opponent.
Sasuke's five meter chidori beam would be a fine example for that, often people wondered "Why didn't he just use that skill to kill his opponent?", against Killer Bee as an example. This is where the rules of the world become unclear and confuse people.


Bleach has clearly defined rules, too. The weapons the Shinigami and their opponents use are their bodies and swords, and each sword can have a supernatural ability. As they're only fighting as souls instead of physical bodies, their power can be measured in Reiatsu, which can also act as a passive defense by pressuring outside. Magic spells are clearly defined beforehand and even ordered in strength by numbers.

However, the power levels of the persons seem to change almost randomly, and previously weak fighters suddenly defeat opponents which were suspectedly way above their level.
Also, there are many scenes in which fighters let themselves beeing beat up only to use their special moves at a later time - without giving any plausible reason for why they didn't finish the fight earlier on.
Plus, many absolutely wounded and almost knocked out characters suddenly start defeating the previously so overwhelmingly strong opponent, although they should be clearly handicapped by their wounds. There is no reasonable explanation for this phenomena.


Bad plausibility:
Black Lagoon: There are two scenes right at the beginning making it obvious how few Black Lagoon cares for logics.
1. Revy jumping around with two pistols on a open, plain field, surrounded by at least 10 enemies with machine pistols and assault rifles. She's making artistical moves while hitting all of her bullets, and none of her opponents hit her. However, it is clear that she does not own some supernatural bullet-evasion-skill, but that this is purely based on her enemies beeing too stupid to pull the trigger, seemingly.
An absolutely unrealistic situation.

2. The Black Lagoon boat jumps over a shipwreck and shoots a torpedo into the helicopter which wanted to hunt them down. They previously planned this move, by saying "The pilot is a gunman type, he'll openly confront us and is currently staying above the shipwreck, he'll come right at us so we can use that angle for this jump."

Come on, it's obvious HOW unplausible this is, isn't it?
There is now way they could plan their jump that precisely - jumping over a shipwreck? No way to calculate where they'ld be heading, apart from a realistic boat probably just falling over.
Second, sky is big. It is 99,9% likely that the helicopter is not at that two square meters of air their torpedo would head after the jump, and at least 95% certain that it wouldn't even remotely be possible to use that shipwreck to make the ship nose facing the helicopter at all!

Asarii
February 23, 2011, 12:28 AM
Nice thread! :thumbs I'm interested in hearing reading other's people's views on a broad (and perhaps philosophical) matter such as the definition of "good". I have my own definitions and will post once my thoughts are organized.

Just to clarify something: although your definition of realism isn't wrong, the term in a literary sense is a depiction of mundane daily life without any embellishments. The best example of it is slice-of-life manga. I think what you're really getting at is anti-suspension of disbelief.

naruto-niichan
February 23, 2011, 07:14 AM
nice thread rofl! :thumbs

there are a lot of things which make a manga good but the most important ones (for me) are:

It has to catch your heart: Well that's not a very static rule or easy to explain but there has to be a moment when you feel attached to the manga. May it be persons, may it be the delivered feelings, may it the be setting or may it be just a beatiful panel or sentence. That's maybe the most simple and yet the most difficult rule. Without it the manga won't be any good, even if the story and the art is great.

Things have to be explained: Not anything has to be explained but at least major parts. Otherwise things look like they are just randomly put together.

Something has to (positively) surprise you: Everything starts to bore you if there aren't any surprises, something you wouldn't expect to happen. Still it shouldn't look like it's too random or out of the blue, otherwise the impression can go in the complete opposite direction.

There definitely are more things but that's what comes to my mind first :)

Roflkopt3r
February 23, 2011, 08:49 AM
nice thread rofl! :thumbs

there are a lot of things which make a manga good but the most important ones (for me) are:

It has to catch your heart: Well that's not a very static rule or easy to explain but there has to be a moment when you feel attached to the manga. May it be persons, may it be the delivered feelings, may it the be setting or may it be just a beatiful panel or sentence. That's maybe the most simple and yet the most difficult rule. Without it the manga won't be any good, even if the story and the art is great.
:)

This is always related to characters. I guess a way often leading to this point is when characters display their emotions in a plausible way. It's very dependend on the reader though.
Things working best for me:

-Very innocent/(positively) naive characters: Nono of Nononono or Chii of Chobits are good examples I think. For example when Chii comes to the conclusion that it would be nice to help her master by picking up a job to earn money for him, and shows him a newspaper insertion where they search girls for a peepshow, asking whether she could apply there :XD
It doesn't have to be that extreme though, innocence doesn't required such an extreme lack of knowledge like in this case :amuse

-Serious, strong characters going totally depressive after a serious event. Guts of Berserk for example. His character was totally unexplained during the first two volumes, and I couldn't really like the story at that point. But once his tragic developement became clear, he became one of my favorite characters ever.
Or Inugami of Wolfen Crest, who just appears ridiculously strong and arrogant in the beginning. I really didn't like him, until he got all depressed and wondering about his own position.

saladesu
February 23, 2011, 10:56 AM
I think my criteria is largely the same as naruto-niichan :)

The manga has to interest me so the topic (or at least the way it is portrayed), must be interesting. The story needs to draw me in and make me want to know what happens next, or else what's the point? :p The characters also need to make me feel like I want to know more about them, to be interested in what they're doing, in their lives, to feel for them. I know you're anti-One Piece, Rofl, but for me, I thought it was amazing that Oda could actually make me feel for a ship (Going Merry) :XD

I also like when things are explained. I understand too that sometimes one needs to wait for the explanation when reading ongoing manga, but basically, I don't like things to be too random or seem like the author just came up with it out of nowhere and plonked it in. Things need to make a certain amount of sense or it's... Nonsense :p

Artwork is also fairly important to me, though even if the art isn't so good I can still thoroughly enjoy a manga (prime examples being the fact that my top 2 manga are FMA and OP). Good artwork is obviously a plus :amuse

I also like manga that teach you something. Be it something practical or life lessons. Of course when it comes to say the shounen genre they're all telling you the same thing like value your comrades, don't give up, etc, but sometimes it's the way that they teach you that lesson that makes it good. It doesn't have to be a speech, as after all actions speak louder than words. Also, I like to think so I like manga that make me think, that are thought-provoking and that I can debate with people about (though I enjoy mindless stuff too... Thinking too much taxes the brain :noworry).

Another thing is dialogue. The dialogue has to flow, be believable and not sound overly hackneyed. I also like when the mangaka adds speech quirks to characters so one is able to instantly recognize a character. Like Kenshin's signature "-de gozaru" and "oro?". It's a pity a lot of these are not quite translatable :( It's one of the reasons why I like reading manga raw.

Mm, there's probably more, but that's all off the top of my head for now. And you know, sometimes these things just can't be explained :XD it's like love for a person. You just do.

Roflkopt3r
February 23, 2011, 11:33 AM
Another thing is dialogue. The dialogue has to flow, be believable and not sound overly hackneyed. I also like when the mangaka adds speech quirks to characters so one is able to instantly recognize a character. Like Kenshin's signature "-de gozaru" and "oro?". It's a pity a lot of these are not quite translatable :( It's one of the reasons why I like reading manga raw.

Oh I noticed a lot of these in Naruto. Kisame for examples always adds something to his sentences - I'm no good with japanese, but I think it sounds like -desne? or sometimes -desu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmYdJ1rsl0I

Added a certain uniqueness to the characters indeed. Since I'm rarely in a position to be able to notice such things, I can't really rate it. But it's not a real main criterium for making a manga good, just a little sidenote for adding a little more character to it.

k-dom
February 23, 2011, 03:06 PM
I don't really care about realism. To be more precise, if the manga search to be realist but fails to it ( like some of your examples ), then it is a minus point, but if the manga does not search this realism ( most of the time for comedy purpose ) then I don't care. Gintama would be the perfect exampe. There is hardly a more unrealistic manga, but the more it is unrealistic, the greater it is. The popularity poll arc was so good in that aspect

What I would search is rather originality. The greater the imagination of the mangaka is, the better. The same with the art, I like when you see that it's different. Also I would say that's the weakness of manga wrt others type of comics. Let's take Bleach for example, lot of people despise Kubo for not being able to draw landscape, but these refined backgrounds are what fascinates me and probably the only reason why I continue reading it

Roflkopt3r
February 24, 2011, 12:53 AM
I don't really care about realism. To be more precise, if the manga search to be realist but fails to it ( like some of your examples ), then it is a minus point, but if the manga does not search this realism ( most of the time for comedy purpose ) then I don't care. Gintama would be the perfect exampe. There is hardly a more unrealistic manga, but the more it is unrealistic, the greater it is. The popularity poll arc was so good in that aspect


Well, as Asarii said, that's not really the type of realism I ment. Which is why the term "plausibility" fits better.

k-dom
February 24, 2011, 02:00 AM
Well that doesn't change my point of view, it's valid for both terms

M3J
February 24, 2011, 02:41 AM
Story is good.
Some ecchi isn't bad.
There's comedy or seriousness.
Intelligence is involved.
More than 2 dimensional, like how Naruto's a deep character.
Some romance
Action

The manga definitely needs to have a good story (my definition of it), and it should have some intelligence, like Nami and Robin in One Piece. Romance is good, though not always necessary, depending. It's the same with action. I'm really a fan of comedy, but the lack of comedy isn't frowned upon either.

raikou
February 25, 2011, 11:35 PM
-The story is good

The first and main reason to read a manga.

-the story/plot is not typical/mainstream (doesn't mean that i hate typical mainstream shonen. I love them but i would prefer something unique and original)

Sometimes i just want to read something unique and not your typical mainstream stories. And that's why i prefer seinen over shonen because seinen has more unique stories than shonen. There's many unique shonen too but i just prefer seinen.

-Unpredictable

More unpredictable, the better.

-good character development

I really like when a character is growing and matured. One of the example is Edward Elric from FMA is matured through his journey. There are other examples but this is the one that i can think of now.

-good comedy

When there's humor it makes a story better

-Interesting art style(at least for me)

Whether it's detailed, cartoony, or there's cute/moe girl, i'll read it.
-Has some philosophy

Each characters has their own perspective and ideals. I love a manga when there's no "good" or "bad".

-Has theory

Examples is like Air Gear, which explained the theory of AT uses using law of physics or whatsoever. It's unreal but when a mangaka puts some detailed explanation about some techniques using some knowledge, i like it.

That's about it.

Asarii
February 26, 2011, 02:20 AM
WARNING: I had this question in my mind for a while now so this is long and abstract. It is a jumbled mess of subjective and objective points making this post disorganized as a result. The following are my standards. [hr]
Fiction has been part of human culture for several millennia. It means that no work is wholly original as stories are adapted and inspired from an already existing narrative. This is why conventional shonen manga often share traits- or rather tropes with each other. There's nothing wrong with those similarities so "clichés" don't bother me. Originality and innovation is refreshing, but it's not something I hold in high regard for what makes manga good.

What I do take of importance is the execution. I don't care if I've seen the premise a hundred times before as long as the way it's delivered is well done. Here's a common plot line in romance: boy meets girl (or girl meets boy); they dislike each other; an event happens; they start seeing each other in a different light; they get together (hopefully!); the conclusion. I can think of several examples fitting that description, and you can probably think of others too!

To determine how well a mangaka can deliver the common plot depends entirely on him/herself. How well did we get to know the characters as individuals? Was the "life-changing" event natural or did it occur out of nowhere? Was the change of feelings natural? Basically it’s the HOW instead of the WHAT.

The manga should also captivate. In other words it should make an impression and provoke some kind of emotion. Of course it depends what type of manga and which scenario I was reading. Feeling something towards a certain scene depends on our perception, but it's still difficult to convey an emotion to the reader using just paper and ink. It's a success if the mangaka does it without being overdone or forceful; it doesn't work if the emotions are thrown at me.

Sometimes conveying emotions isn't crucial and that's perfectly fine. In this case it should leave an intellectual impression to a certain degree. The manga doesn't have to be philosophical or ~*deep*~. The premise could be extremely simple, and it should still allow questions or ideas to be formed. The big question is “Do I learn or take away anything from this?”

Detective Conan is comprised of episodic mysteries with a main plot that deals with espionage. There's not much to take from the summary alone. When we strip that away it becomes a manga about overcoming one's limitations. This isn't a story about a guy solving crimes; it's a story about a guy who physically turned into a child and still solves crimes. The formula for Detective Conan is simple, and yet there's still a message that can be obtained from it.

On the other hand there was a more complex story I read about an immortal woman. No bullets can go through her; no poison can affect her; no explosions can harm her; to put it plainly she cannot be killed. However, she is ridden with emotional grief and fear that compensates for her inability to feel physical pain. She's suicidal but can't die. It gives some food for thought considering life and death as well as the difficulty of adhering to social standards.

A personal preference I have is a mangaka going beyond the scope of his/her work. I'm a huge sucker for allegory so it pleases me when I come across a reference to a separate story or a real event. The reason why I consider this good is because it helps expand and embellish the world because of the connection to a wider realm of narratives. Not only does it show that there was research going on, readers can choose to look it up for a better understanding. It's like extra-credit homework, and I don't mind at all. It's nice to sit back and relax, but it's more enriching to be actively involved.

For that reason I don't want everything to be spelled out for me on a silver platter. A skilled writer would have trust in the readers to make connections on their own. The way they would handle plot/characters would be subtle to a degree so the work isn't too ambiguous nor is it overtly extraneous. (IMO this is why most classics tend to be "confusing" or "boring". It's the reader's task to make an extra effort to fully understand it.) This is the difference between manga as entertainment and manga as literature. Not that I'm saying manga meant for entertainment can't be good, it's just that there has to be an interaction between the mangaka and reader for the overall experience to be better.

My last point is self-awareness. An enjoyable manga is one that knows exactly what it is and doesn't try to go beyond the limit. Regardless of how high or low the bar is set, the manga better accomplish the standards it gave for itself. Also, I'd rather have a series admit and address its flaws instead of being ignorant. Realizing every implication that comes with the work shows that the mangaka is paying close attention and cares.

A good manga in my eyes will incorporate at least one of the points, and a great manga will encompass all. Once again these are my own standards since everyone’s definition of good is varied. I apologize for making no sense.

jorped
February 26, 2011, 08:23 AM
In these types of thinks i never knew why but i am a huge fan of differents universes , cuz i think that that can suprise me much more than histories about thinks that happen in this world. if the world created by the authors is a very interesting one i think for me it will be good, for example Naruto , that has a very interesting world and i think that nothing on it is stupid, the same for OP, but it isnt only on the mangas that i like these for example for me still until now the best unvierse that i managed to enter was Harry Potter´s that was just amazing.

Since i was a kid that i like stuff like this despite the fact that i know that maybe other books that are intelectual should be the ones that we should read, cuz technically we win not much for reading stories like Harry Potter or Naruto .... speaking intelectually , but one think for me is always much more important than that and that is , having fun, and on these stories i feel something inside me that wants me to keep reading it ,and if that happens i think i can say that that is good for me even that for most of the people it isnt more than silly stories.

So a good manga has to be something that keep the reader attention and that suprises him, this maybe is a very vague answer but i think that only this is needed

ashher
March 20, 2011, 02:10 PM
Its an interesting question, and i don't know the answer for sure. I just fall for some manga then try to understand what exactly that made me fall for it. Asarii made some great points, and i think i can fit many of what i like in those criteria, but not all i think. In a sense, its good. I never really know what i'll like, so when i find one that i do...its a joy of discovery! I like some because i like the characters. I like some because of they seems to have some hidden meanings and implication. Like some cause they are fun. Like some cause they look gorgeous. Like some cause they've great actions, visually or technically. Like some cause they are macabre/depressing/crazy/exaggerated. I think i first need to like what the manga is trying to be, secondly i need to like how much it has succeeded in making me feel what it was supposed to make me feel. Perhaps jorped was the one who nailed it best for me...keep my attention, anyhow, and that's good enough for me.

benelori
March 20, 2011, 04:07 PM
Interesting thread...

I have some well established criteria...first is the story...now this seems to be a bit vague and in almost every situation a good story and a good flow of the story is really subjective...a good story will captivate the reader...there are some techniques that manage to pull this together...

First is humor...humor is always there, and even if the jokes suck the art can compensate for it, I think everybody is familiar with this...weirdly drawn characters, or just some random stuff appearing now and then(like the mini-bunny in Kenichi or the mini-masters in Vagabond)

The second is mystery...reference to some mysterious characters, objects, basically something that will allow the mangaka to develop a complex plot with several layers...

And the third somehow relates to the second...to keep these plot lines in order, and ultimately developed...I like it both ways, gradually or explaining it in the distant future with the help of references or memories...

Another criteria somehow relates to the realism, or credibility that rofl mentioned...for me it's important to not cross the boundaries that were established in the world that was created, and even if the boundaries are pushed to the limit, even so when the big picture is revealed, consistency needs to be there...

The last one and it's one of the reasons that I started reading manga in the first place...is the art...
I like realistic and detailed art...coming up with some wacky character designs is good, but I think the drawing skills of the mangaka truly shine when he manages to come up with good designs, but still keeping it realistic, like in Berserk...
Examples:
I don't really like OP, because it's not realistic, but I acknowledge the fact that Oda draws everything to the tiniest details, which is good, and there's a certain dynamic feeling that he always delivers...and in some panels he even manages to overwhelm the reader...when somebody succeeds in this, then it means that the art in the said manga( OP here, but I recommend Blame! or Biomega! as well) is very rich...

I love the art in Berserk...Miura shows a lot of focus...coupled with the realistic designs(at least concerning humans), the detail of his art, his paneling, shades, is impressive...those who read it know that the double-panels are always a wonder to behold...

Bleach is another example, because I can see that Kubo is enjoying his drawing, and he experiments a lot, takes risks, I mean he has panels with absolutely no background, just white or black...and he probably does this to eliminate useless things, just concentrating on the most important aspects of his story...

So in terms of art, there should be some kind of spice...either overwhelmingly rich, or focused on details, dynamic, or brave(e.g. Bleach)...
That's why series like Liar Game or this new title, Wolfsmund are not really my type...simplistic, without any special trademark...
Of course I think that the art as characterization is probably the most important...to transmit the feelings of the characters, to depict their evolution is essential if the author really wants the reader to be drawn in the story

So these are the necessities...there are other things that will make me like a manga, like a crazy idea, like researching trepanation:o...weird ideas, stories also captivate me, because in the end, it creates an original world and story, and shows the length of the authors imagination...
I'm also a sucker for allegory, just like Asarii:amuse...and I like intelligence as M3J mentioned it...though it's not really a necessity, because stories in general have some twists in it, and that requires intelligence, in either solving the problem or just creating the twist...so I would say intelligence is a requirement for the author:amuse...though pure comedy mangas are quite boring...

All these things however can alternate, I can always take a good story even if the art is lacking, or vice-versa...but the most mainest, bestest requirement:amuse is...to read a story that happens in a different world from ours...that means the slice of life genre is pretty much out of the picture for me...at least those that depict modern daily life... my teachers told me in high school and I absolutely agree that literature helps the reader to "escape" RL, and to find refuge in a different world...
So even if a manga is can be categorized under slice of life, I need the term historical, or sci-fi added to it...

PS: though I mostly mentioned my strict criteria, there are definitely other things that can captivate me and move me to read a certain manga, so I will wait for others to post as well, and reply
[hr]


Another thing is dialogue. The dialogue has to flow, be believable and not sound overly hackneyed. I also like when the mangaka adds speech quirks to characters so one is able to instantly recognize a character. Like Kenshin's signature "-de gozaru" and "oro?". It's a pity a lot of these are not quite translatable :( It's one of the reasons why I like reading manga raw.


Oh I noticed a lot of these in Naruto. Kisame for examples always adds something to his sentences - I'm no good with japanese, but I think it sounds like -desne? or sometimes -desu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmYdJ1rsl0I

Added a certain uniqueness to the characters indeed. Since I'm rarely in a position to be able to notice such things, I can't really rate it. But it's not a real main criterium for making a manga good, just a little sidenote for adding a little more character to it.

Agreed with both posts especially the end of rofl's...it's not really requirement for me either, but it adds to the character...basically the speech is one of the fundamentals of characterization...
Both examples are really good...and in both it reflects the character...in Kenshin's case, de gozaimasu is like the ultimate politeness that the japanese language can reach(longer means more polite:tem)...however Kenshin uses a variation of that de gozaru, which sort of softens it, and we know that Kenshin is somebody who is kind hearted and calm...but when he changes to Hitokiri, all this just vanishes...

Kisame...I always liked him, because his manner of speech also depicts politeness, kind of in contrast to his image as a character, which is ruthless and that he i basically a monster...this sort of contradictory terms are really good...

I would add Orochimaru here as a favourite...even though he is most time a male:amuse, he uses a form of speech that is used by women and he changes to usual order of words, messes with the general sentence structure...he frequently use wa at the end of a sentence, which means exactly this...and related to this, when women overuse this wa or yo, it kind of adds a sense of superiority and nobility...
[hr]

Basically it’s the HOW instead of the WHAT.

Sometimes conveying emotions isn't crucial and that's perfectly fine. In this case it should leave an intellectual impression to a certain degree. The manga doesn't have to be philosophical or ~*deep*~. The premise could be extremely simple, and it should still allow questions or ideas to be formed. The big question is “Do I learn or take away anything from this?”

My last point is self-awareness. An enjoyable manga is one that knows exactly what it is and doesn't try to go beyond the limit. Regardless of how high or low the bar is set, the manga better accomplish the standards it gave for itself. Also, I'd rather have a series admit and address its flaws instead of being ignorant. Realizing every implication that comes with the work shows that the mangaka is paying close attention and cares.

A good manga in my eyes will incorporate at least one of the points, and a great manga will encompass all. Once again these are my own standards since everyone’s definition of good is varied. I apologize for making no sense.

Apologies accepted, since it made sense, quite something that deserves to be highlighted:tem...that's why I bolded the ones that I agree with...

The not bolded part...I agree to a certain degree, at least I see the sense in it, but I think that conveying emotions is crucial...
Let's take the part where is just about emotions...when emotions are depicted, there's usually a certain entanglement in the process...which means that emotions of different types collide with each other...in a love affair, the ignorance of certain characters opposes the love of the other...in the case of death or some kind of tragedy, the opposition between life and death, loving and losing somebody is the crucial thing that acts as a source of the depicted emotion...and so on...but I think it's pretty obvious without me mentioning all these:amuse

When there's just the intellectual impression and probably the easiest examples are political affairs, or certain "intellectual" games, then the manga lacks, and it does seriously IMO...because even if it poses a certain question for the reader, or as you said “Do I learn or take away anything from this?”, the emotional depth of the said situation, the emotions that ride with it, make that problem important(in the context of the manga), and that helps the reader to ultimately understand and maybe relate to the story to a certain degree...that's why I think that emotions are most needed, when an intellectual problem is raised...because emotions in the end are the means to make the intellectual problem a problem...

An example, albeit quite a trivial one...aliens attack earth, and prove that there's no God...there's the issue of the attack, there's the social implications of God being inexistent and so on...now this premise raises questions related to God, raises questions of humanities capability to survive, but if there are no emotions conveyed, then the problems are just floating in the air, without any real base that we can grab...

Basically if we are in search for the answer to the question: “Do I learn or take away anything from this?”...because it implies subjectiveness, the answer has to mean something on a personal level, which automatically implies emotions...and our emotions are strengthened if we can relate to the emotions conveyed in the manga

PS: sorry if I'm pretty confusing and repetitive, English is not my forte when discussing such matters:sweatdrop, but I think the gist is understandable

saladesu
March 21, 2011, 10:14 AM
Agreed with both posts especially the end of rofl's...it's not really requirement for me either, but it adds to the character...basically the speech is one of the fundamentals of characterization...
Both examples are really good...and in both it reflects the character...in Kenshin's case, de gozaimasu is like the ultimate politeness that the japanese language can reach(longer means more polite:tem)...however Kenshin uses a variation of that de gozaru, which sort of softens it, and we know that Kenshin is somebody who is kind hearted and calm...but when he changes to Hitokiri, all this just vanishes...

Kisame...I always liked him, because his manner of speech also depicts politeness, kind of in contrast to his image as a character, which is ruthless and that he i basically a monster...this sort of contradictory terms are really good...

I would add Orochimaru here as a favourite...even though he is most time a male:amuse, he uses a form of speech that is used by women and he changes to usual order of words, messes with the general sentence structure...he frequently use wa at the end of a sentence, which means exactly this...and related to this, when women overuse this wa or yo, it kind of adds a sense of superiority and nobility...


Actually, Kenshin mostly speaks like a samurai. I wouldn't say it "softens" his speech by using "de gozaru", it merely makes him sound like a samurai, which he is. But I guess that would only make sense to someone who knows that "de gozaru" is typical samurai speech. In fact I believe Mifune in Naruto also uses "de gozaru". At the same time, I also like when Kenshin suddenly changes from samurai speech (especially the use of "sessha" for "I") to "normal" speech ("ore" for "I", and drops the polite "de gozaru") when he is pissed. Little things like this bring out the emotion imo.

As a speaker of the language, I guess I appreciate these things better, and all the more so as a translator. Because I know how damn difficult it is to convey these special speech patterns into English or any other language, it makes me appreciate all the more how much effort and research must have gone into writing each ones of those lines.

I guess part of making a manga realistic is also the amount of research that goes into it. Not just the dialogue but the situations and references as well. For example manga like Nurarihyon no Mago, where there are so many references here there and everywhere to all sorts of legends and folklore and historical figures and urban legends... One can really tell how much effort went into that research, and to me it is one of the factors that both makes a manga more realistic/believable as well as interesting, and by extension, good.

EDIT: oh and women adding a "wa" at the end of their sentences doesn't actually add any "superiority" or "nobility" :p it's just rather feminine, though some guys do use it as well.

benelori
March 21, 2011, 12:45 PM
EDIT: oh and women adding a "wa" at the end of their sentences doesn't actually add any "superiority" or "nobility" :p it's just rather feminine, though some guys do use it as well.

Yeah, I thought so after I wrote the post-_-;...it does indeed add a more feminine touch to the speech, that's why I used superiority in the first place, I'm not sure about nobility:darn

saladesu
March 22, 2011, 09:35 AM
Sounding feminine makes one sound superior? Now that's an interesting view :amuse

Speaking of speech patterns, I know this isn't directly related to the manga itself, but to what extent does the translation affect your enjoyment of a manga? I guess this is something that interests me as a translator. I mean, things like, should the names of techniques be left untranslated? Would you prefer "kyuubi" or would you prefer to read "nine tails"? I know some people who get annoyed at translations, like if the English is poor, and that affects how much they enjoy the manga. In the same vein, how well the scans are cleaned, imo, also affects one's enjoyment, no? Isn't a two-page spread much easier to appreciate when it's stitched together nicely, than when it isn't? :)

I hope this isn't considered off-topic :sweat

jorped
March 22, 2011, 11:13 AM
people get annoyed for such small thinks!!!!
as i read some mangas and i love them , i am already very happy to see that we weekly can see this mangas due to translators hard work.
I definitely dont care much about if the "attacks", the "name of the thinks" is on english or on japanese, the only think that i think its important is if the translation is well done and if it doesnt give false info.

what did i do , so i could be able to see for example Naruto manga weekly on the internet?

i havent done a think !, i am enjoying the hard work of other people and i am still going to reclaim for such small thinks????

people that get annoyed with the translations and start complaining because of small thinks like this , have a good option, which is find an other way of reading manga

benelori
March 22, 2011, 11:30 AM
Sounding feminine makes one sound superior? Now that's an interesting view :amuse

Haha:amuse...soft, eloquent speech introduces a certain depth to the character, regarding intelligence and personality...as far as I've noticed wa is used by such characters...and of course the superiority comparison only stands for women...U didn't think that they would actually be superior to men did you?:oh


Speaking of speech patterns, I know this isn't directly related to the manga itself, but to what extent does the translation affect your enjoyment of a manga? I guess this is something that interests me as a translator. I mean, things like, should the names of techniques be left untranslated? Would you prefer "kyuubi" or would you prefer to read "nine tails"? I know some people who get annoyed at translations, like if the English is poor, and that affects how much they enjoy the manga. In the same vein, how well the scans are cleaned, imo, also affects one's enjoyment, no? Isn't a two-page spread much easier to appreciate when it's stitched together nicely, than when it isn't? :)

I hope this isn't considered off-topic :sweat

I like when the japanese terms, such as techniques, the suffix -sama and others, like you mentioned to be left untranslated...I prefer a small translation on the bottom of the page or between panels...
Regarding the scanlation process...I noticed that in some cases too much cleaning can have bad effects as well...so things like panel detail are being lost, important shades...sometimes certain chapters seem to bicolor to me, and when I look at high quality raws, I clearly see the difference...of course the process of inserting translations and re drawing characters is important, so I know that the cleaning part is essential, but it would be better if we would get the same panels, which appear in the manga(raw, official issue, tankoubon whatever)