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igotthegoods
February 21, 2011, 11:02 PM
Ichigo vs. Starrk

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14118.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Ichigo

The strawberry blond protagonist with a surly attitude and strong sense of friendship, Ichigo is an interesting hybrid of human, shinigami, and hollow abilities. Having studied martials arts since a young age, he is quite skilled in unarmed combat. Since the start of the series, he has undergone several transformations and advancements in combat ability and skill in remarkably short periods of time to become one of the most formidable characters of the manga. This consistent honing of his skills is underscored by the abilities of his zanpakutō, Zangetsu. In both shikai and bankai, he can use the technique, Getsuga Tenshō, which condenses his immense spiritual energy into an energy slash. His bankai, Tensa Zangetsu, has the effect of compressing Ichigo's reiatsu, substantially enhancing his agility, power, and endurance. Ichigo's visored hollow powers also allow him various abilities, such as enhanced combat abilities and regenerative properties.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Starrk

Coyote Starrk is the Primera Espada, signified by the "1" tattooed on the back of his left hand. The aspect of death he represents is solitude. Starrk has an overall lazy and laid-back personality and is normally reluctant, yet can be serious and willing to do what needs to be done to complete the task at hand.

Unlike the rest of the Espada, Starrk's power is not sealed inside his zanpakutō but is released when he recombines with Lilynette Gingerback, who was shown as his Fracción but is actually another part of him. When they combine, their release is Los Lobos. He wields two ornamental guns able to fire off cero in rapid succession, one of these guns actually being Lilynette with whom he is able to converse. Stark and Lilynette can also separate portions of their souls to form a pack of wolves that explode upon contact with an enemy as well as form swords for close combat.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

shuha27
February 25, 2011, 11:55 PM
I think I'm going to vote for Starkk. Ichigo had trouble with Espada four so I don't think he can handle a opponent like Starkk. Starrk was able to take care of 3 other captains...I think at the same time...
The thing about Ichigo though is that he is unpredictable :/

Random101
February 26, 2011, 12:06 AM
Starrk, zero question.

Speed advantage: Starrk is so fast Bankai Ichigo, the same one who could just barely follow base Ulquiorra, and when massively wounded to hell could still perceive if only slightly R2 could not see Starrk move at all when burdened. While he was sealed. Starrk Dominates.

Power: Ichigo's full power Vizard getsuuga could not touch R1 Ulquiorra, and Starrk DEFINITELY has greater reiatsu than that. Ergo it doesn't touch him. Starrk however can spam massive amounts of cero's instantly, or one instantly when sealed. Starrk again*

Defense: Ichigo does not have Hierro. Starrk.

Intelligence: CUT OFF MY ARM AND LEG TOO. Starrk.

A wtfpwn when released. Considerably closer but still considerably in Starrk's favor when he's sealed.

*This is not taking into account Ichinator. Taking that into account however I'd still give the win to Starrk, but it'd require the wolves and would actually be the most interesting possible sequence in that it'd be very touch and go as opposed to just Starrk owning while barely trying, depending. A decent wolf set off to the face should, by all means knock him out of the form.

I say this because you remember that cero that blew up in his face that knocked him out of it? Yeah, Orihime was standing like five feet away from that directly in front of him while her barrier was protecting Ishida some distance away and was completely unharmed. A wolf would freaking destroy her to say the bloody least.

And if that wasn't what did it, then it was cutting off the horn with the energy lance. Energy sword, same deal, good game, good night our lead and try again next time.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 12:15 AM
Starrk is hands-down one of the most powerful characters in bleach. The strongest of the hollows we've seen IMO. Half the time he wasn't even trying, yet he casually evaded everything Shunsui, Juushirou, and Love threw at him. The only attacks that ever hit Starrk involved some form of distraction (like the haori in the face by Shunsui). Even some of Shunsui's cheap shots didn't work though, like when he threw his hat at him, or when he tried to cut him in half from behind when he was talking to Juushioru.

Ichigo has little chance here, you can say he was quick when he fought Byakuya (too quick for his own good as it caused him to slow down later in the fight), but Shunsui ain't exactly slow, and he was having a rough time evading cero metralleta. Shunsui was about to get hit when Juushirou intervened. I don't see what Ichigo can do to stop cero metralleta, a GT is definitely not pushing through more than a couple ceros, even hollowfied. Don't feel like looking it up, but a mask-less GT was defeated by just one of Grimmjow's ordinary sealed ceros; Ichigo's definitely screwed against 1,000 from the primera.

The wolves are just beyond hax, (ready for a controversial statement?) I don't even see how Yamamoto could survive that onslaught.

Waking_Dreamer
February 26, 2011, 12:15 AM
Just want to know...this is VizIchigo Mask V2 right?

The one that cut Aizen, and arguably dodged or tanked Gins Buto: Renjin....

Tsukisama
February 26, 2011, 12:20 AM
Just want to know...this is VizIchigo Mask V2 right?

The one that cut Aizen, and arguably dodged or tanked Gins Buto: Renjin....

Ichigo has access to every form and skill he has shown prior to entering the Dangai where he trained with his father. This includes what he used to fight Gin (and also his hollow form that defeated Ulquiorra).

Random101
February 26, 2011, 12:23 AM
Ouch. The mask there is laughably short, that'd make things even rougher than they already are.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 12:27 AM
Just want to know...this is VizIchigo Mask V2 right?

The one that cut Aizen, and arguably dodged or tanked Gins Buto: Renjin....

Cutting Aizen in that situation should have been doable by HM Ichigo. He caught him totally off-guard (thanks to an opening by the CC's hadou 96) yet he still managed to blow his chance to kill him. Even Aizen pointed out his failure. You saw how once Aizen was focused on him he easily caught his sword with his hand. Shinigami aren't like arrancar which have hierro constantly protecting them. If their guard is down for whatever reason they're gonna get cut.

Random101 is correct, that Ichigo had a very short mask time, and had the hollow once again jacking things up on the inside. Personally I'd use this Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-357-page-18.html), but it's all the same really because Starrk rapestomps regardless.

SaintSheik
February 26, 2011, 01:02 AM
I find it very hard to believe Bleach, and by Bleach I mean Ichigo, won't make it until the finals of the tournament. For the sake of trying to justify an Ichigo win, a weakened masked Ichigo was able to cut an enlarged, released Yammy and if you want to play the number game, Yammy > Starrk.

Speaking of games, Starrk was defeated by a shikai game so I believe a full powered Vaizard Ichigo could do considerably more damage than Shunsui's end game on Starrk. That and I think the Starrk speed moment in HM wasn't something that should automatically say his speed triumphs..Ichigo wins IMO.

Feel free to rip this apart at your own convenience.

freshseth83
February 26, 2011, 02:05 AM
Don't think Ichigo is as strong reiatsu wise as Shunsui's call of black. It didn't matter what Starrk did. It was a game he was FORCED to play. Shunsui didn't have to tell him the rules. Starrk deduced them though. It took a turn but he figured it out, mostly. He's smarter than Ichigo. Dude killed hollows by being in their presence. He and potentially Barragan were the only real VL's there were amongst the espada. Starrk is serious fast, faster than Ichigo ever was (according to the Ichigo in the rules). His wolves are too deadly, and if Vizards can't get rid of them, Ichigo probably couldn't as well. He'll need Shunsui to save his ass like Love and Rose did lol. Full hollow Ichigo might take a win though. But who's going to talk to him into coming back to life if there's no Orihime around? Without any Kurosaki-kuns Ichigo is low in resolve. Is his heart in it? He didn't want to kill Grimmjow. Starrk is lazy but he's going to kill you if you continue to fight.

Takahashi
February 26, 2011, 02:17 AM
Stark easily. Ichigo fought Ulq in a resolved state and still was completely overwhelmed in the first #4 release. He was no where close to standing on even ground with number 4, how is he going to beat number 1?

Stark is really damn fast, powerful, and tactical, he's just a well rounded, tough to fight against guy for pretty much anyone.

Even if we assume Ichigonator makes an appearance, his power is indeterminable, so to vote for Ichigo based on that is pretty ridiculous.

Tenacious Weezy
February 26, 2011, 04:12 AM
I think the Vizard Bankai Ichigo that fought off Gin's Bankai would make Stark release, at that point it's just a matter of time before Stark wears him down. I also don't see the point of counting Ichigonator because he was technically still beaten by Ulqy...

Snake_Cowboy
February 26, 2011, 07:37 AM
I've been looking forward to how this match plays out as well. The Deathberry VS the Primera Espada; Number One VS Number One. Main Character VS Not-Main Character. :p

But in my eyes, Stark definitely wins this fight.

A lot has already been said, but let's go over it again, shall we?

Ichigo, on Bankai, had trouble with an unreleased Ulquiorra. Though he appeared to have improved in power (taking Ulquiorra's Cero without even bringing up his mask), technique (channeling his Getsuga around the blade, for example) and skill (seeing/understanding Ulquiorra's movements), he was still barely able to cut through his hierro. By contrast, when Ulquiorra became pissed off, Ichigo could no longer keep up with his speed and would've had his head lopped off if it hadn't been for Orihime.

Stark, on the other hand, was keeping up with Kyouraku, appeared to have the advantage even, saw through his double-handed fighting style and caught him by surprise with his stance-less Cero. The speed Stark showed when he kidnapped Orihime was insane and Kenpachi and Ichigo seemed barely able to follow his movements. With Stark's power, speed and sword-skill, I doubt Ichigo will be able to inflict even the slightest wound on him with just his Bankai.

People may bring up his Bankai's success in his fight with Byakuya and I admit such speed may surpass Stark's unreleased, but in my opinion, the speed he showcased back then was a result of Ichigo pushing himself way too far: he was going all-out with his Bankai, with no regard for his own body, and it was this that resulted in him being unable to handle his own power. Ichigo's body could not cope with it and he would've been defeated by Byakuya were it not for his Hollow intervening; since then, Ichigo has consciously held back in order to avoid making the same mistake. One way or another, Ichigo will not force Stark to release with only his Bankai.

Mask, then?

Of course, the question is, which mask? The one he used in his final battle against Ulquiorra or the one he gained afterwards? It's tough to judge the effectiveness of the latter, but it did seem to me that Ichigo received a power-boost - not huge, but still enough to leave a mark on Yammy in his released state and knock him down. Unfortunately, it also became more difficult to wear, resulting in Ichigo being unable to use the mask for longer intervals. Longer than 11 seconds, surely, but not for a seemingly indefinite period (as in the Ulquiorra fight). I'll work out a scenario for both masks. I'll also assume that Ichigo is fully committed and not despairing as he was post-Hueco Mundo, fighting Stark with all the resolve he showed when facing Ulquiorra the second time.

With his previous mask, Ichigo will start to give an unreleased Stark some difficulty. With his increased speed and strength and seemingly no time-limit for his mask, he'll whale on Stark for a while. But Ulquiorra, even when outmatched, was still able to hold his own somewhat and Stark will fare better. I think it will still take a Hollowfied Getsuga Tenshou from Ichigo before Stark releases.

With his new mask and no doubts clouding his mind and heart, Ichigo will do even better. A hit from a Getsuga in that state will definitely injure Stark and convince him to release, but Ichigo may have trouble maintaining the mask afterwards.

But upon using his Resurreccíon, Stark will just mow Ichigo down, regardless of the mask he's using. With Ulquiorra's first release, he already completely dominated Ichigo. His speed was barely perceptible and Ulquiorra nearly took Ichigo's head off with his first move, Ichigo was unable to land even one hit and his Cero Oscuras blew Ichigo's mask clean off. Even if Stark is generally lazy and unwilling to fight, his Cero Metralleta will totally overwhelm Ichigo. One hit may not be strong enough, but I cannot see Ichigo being able to keep up with the amount of Ceros shot his way. His speed will be insufficient to dodge them all; multiple explosions will wound Ichigo severely and destroy his mask as well. Even if Ichigo is somehow able to land another Hollowfied Getsuga, Stark has shown quite incredible durability, being able to shrug off a direct hit from Love while he was using his shikai and his mask with barely a mark on him. Ichigo will keep struggling for a while, but Stark is not above finishing off his opponents if it's really necessary. Without even using his wolf-pack, Stark will win against everything Ichigo can manage.

For the sake of covering the entire argument, I'll include Ichigo's super-Hollow form/Neo-Ichigo/Ichigonator in the equation as well. Let's say Stark shoots Ichigo through the chest with a Cero the same way Ulquiorra did and that his Hollow-side emerges. Stark will definitely be surprised at what he's facing and Hollow Ichigo will be superior to him overall; however, I think the gap between them will be a lot smaller than between him and Ulquiorra. Hollow Ichigo might land a nasty hit at first by surprising Stark, but knowing what he's dealing with, Stark will be cautious. He'll keep his distance and with his speed, I think he'll manage to do so, dodging Hollow Ichigo's Cero as well, then try to overwhelm his opponent with his own Ceros. Hollow Ichigo probably won't even bother dodging and ignore the wounds Stark's causing, but he will be kept at bay unless he realises a direct assault won't work. If Hollow Ichigo gets up close, Stark has a problem (though he has his energy-swords too), but with his wolves, he'll turn the tide: I don't think Hollow Ichigo will understand they're a threat until it's too late. With the wolves having to deal with only one target, they'll gang up on him from all directions; even one blast to the head might be sufficient to knock Ichigo out of his Hollow form, but multiple definitely will.

Ichigo will probably recover from the wound again, but he'll still be tired and injured. But Stark, while wounded, will still be capable of fighting. After that, one Cero to the head will seal the deal. With or without his Hollow form, Ichigo will not defeat the Primera.

Stark wins.

exacta
February 26, 2011, 12:19 PM
Only way I could see Ichigo winning is with his full hollow form. And thats a really vague powerup.....so yeah I'll give it to Stark.

Hystzen
February 26, 2011, 12:48 PM
ichigo... he can dodge byakuyas senbonzakura he can take care of wolves ichigo can do his reliable spam GT attacks to clear out waves of wovles..ichigo blinked missed starrk after grimmjow fight..after his death with ulq he came back with new mask and possible a power up too then knocked yammi on his ass with half his reistu..heck his GT cleaved Aizen so bad he admitted without houg he would have died.

ichigo has the fire power and he can take hits...also starrk has never fought a bankai opponent..he never did any major to damage to shikai state enemies..look at love and rose took some wolves hardly that badly damaged...shunsui took a cero which fried his clothes ...starrk never dealt any serious damage to a person in friggin shikai state. he also starts of sealed and ichigo always goes bankai first if ichigo could take it lilynette first starrk cant release..

it is possible for him to win the match with 100% resolve as it a tournament we can igonore the hollow up and down power levels and have ichigo WHO COULD SENSE AIZEN IN COCCON form when isshin and urahara coundnt ...plus unohana was shocked how much ichigo has and she know likes of shunsui and ukitakes ..it assumed by her comments his reistu is higher than shunsui or ukitake

kkck
February 26, 2011, 12:54 PM
Can ichigo use the form he used against ulquiorra? Normal bankai vizard ichigo would lose IMO, he would not be able to counter the wolves and perhaps not even the cero guns but in turn I do think the form used to defeat ulquiorra would defeat starrk in pretty much the same manner as he did ulquiorra (or perhaps even in an easier manner depending on what exactly segunda etapa was). Anyways, hollow ichigo at that stage was able to catch lanza del relampago with his hand and crush it with no damage whatsoever, I don't think the wolves or starrk's cero can even cause much damage to someone that resistant...

Random101
February 26, 2011, 01:11 PM
It doesn't have to cause damage, it has to knock him out of it. And Knocking him out of that form is easy with Starrk's arsenal. Once he's out of it, it's over, no if ands or buts.

kkck
February 26, 2011, 01:24 PM
It took ulquiorra quite a bit of effort to pull that off. Ulquiorra only managed that because ishida actually distracted ichigo. Starrk for the most part will have hollow ichigo's undivided attention. Lets also not forget ichigo quite literally won't stop until absolutely nothing remains of starrk, lets not forget he was about to slice and dice the seemingly dead body of ulquiorra. It is unlikely starrk will get a chance to breath once hollow ichigo starts his rampage. Being realistic, hollow ichigo was able to speedblits ulquiorra fairly easily. Would starrk fair any differently? I have my doubts about that. None of starrks cero seem nearly as powerful as the ones ulquiorra used either, there were just a lot of them. I don't think starrk would be able to maintain his distance nor keep up against hollow ichigo once the fight becomes close quarters.
[hr]
Lets also not forget lanza del relampago had an overwhelming amount of power compressed into it. He did manage to get a lucky his on ichigo and break the mask but that does not mean things would go that way for starrk.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 02:11 PM
It took ulquiorra quite a bit of effort to pull that off. Ulquiorra only managed that because ishida actually distracted ichigo. Starrk for the most part will have hollow ichigo's undivided attention. Lets also not forget ichigo quite literally won't stop until absolutely nothing remains of starrk, lets not forget he was about to slice and dice the seemingly dead body of ulquiorra.


Not exactly. Hollow Ichigo seemed to aggro everything that moved. In that sense, when the wolves come out Starrk is no longer his only target. That berserk hollow is just as likely to chase after one of the wolves. And yeah, I'm pretty sure at the very least one of the freakin' 50 will blow off the mask.

hakuthehedgehog
February 26, 2011, 02:36 PM
Can Ichigo go Ichigonator in this fight? If yes, then he ownstomps Starrk.

If not, he doesn't, because he hasn't got the guts to kill the little girl before she fuses with Starrk.

Actually, if a point blank cero oscuras couldn't kill stop Ichigo to turn into that mindless beast, then I doubt Starrk could.

Starrk is dinner for Ichigonator.

tousendrinksbleach
February 26, 2011, 02:57 PM
Not exactly. Hollow Ichigo seemed to aggro everything that moved. In that sense, when the wolves come out Starrk is no longer his only target. That berserk hollow is just as likely to chase after one of the wolves. And yeah, I'm pretty sure at the very least one of the freakin' 50 will blow off the mask.

you are telling me starkk has a chance against hollow ichigo ? ... good joke
he will take all the damn wolves and let them explode arround him and keep regenerating
if you havent noticed, the dogs didnt kill rose or love, starkk simply said he could keep spawn them for a long time for them to handle

bankai + mask ichigo who fouht gin loses but only after starkk use the wolves
hollow ichigo defeats starkk in a coulpe seconds

still i'm voting ichigo ... actually some people voted agaisnt urahara :-_- , why the heck do i need to think ?

kkck
February 26, 2011, 03:30 PM
Not exactly. Hollow Ichigo seemed to aggro everything that moved. In that sense, when the wolves come out Starrk is no longer his only target. That berserk hollow is just as likely to chase after one of the wolves. And yeah, I'm pretty sure at the very least one of the freakin' 50 will blow off the mask.

I don't think hollow ichigo would lose sight of starrk as a target just because of the wolves. Its not like he would not see starrk spawning the wolves or the reiatsu of the wolves would be any different from starrk. It also not like hollow ichigo simply chased off for ulquiorra's lanza when it missed him lol.

Being realistic, would starrk even survive hollow ichigo's cero?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-806-6/bleach/chapter-352.html
Each of the structures seen at the side of the cero was shown to be at least as large as a building. Heck, I would think that cero has the sheer area of effect to actually match yammi size.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-57804-6/bleach/chapter-422.html
Starrk would have a extremely hard time getting out of the way of that and we all saw what happened to ulquiorra when he took it head on. And that is not even considering getsuga tensho into the who thing. How would starrk deal with that should it come to it?

IMO hollow ichigo would have about as an overwhelming victory as he did against ulquiorra at the very least.

conn-man
February 26, 2011, 03:36 PM
I'm a believer that Ichigo never lost his speed that his bankai gave him, he just lost himself.

So if he has resolve he has a positive outlook on the fight like with Byakuya. With that he has creativity, bravery, and full utilization of every thing he has.

2x captain reiatsu, tons of getsuga forms(cresent, wave, spray, wrapped around the blade), above average speed and the mask boost.

And if he thinks the way he thought in the byakuya fight then he can dodge the wolves and get behind Stark for a kill.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 04:16 PM
I don't think hollow ichigo would lose sight of starrk as a target just because of the wolves. Its not like he would not see starrk spawning the wolves or the reiatsu of the wolves would be any different from starrk. It also not like hollow ichigo simply chased off for ulquiorra's lanza when it missed him lol.

You're giving the beast too much intelligence credit. The bloody wolves were probably smarter than Ichigonator. Why would it notice or care that Starrk spawned them. Also, yes actually, they're supposed to be pieces of Starrk and Lilynettes soul, so I would assume they have the same or similar reiatsu to Starrk. Theres no way that hollow Ichigo is going to continue chasing after Starrk when it has the wolves chasing and biting at him.


Being realistic, would starrk even survive hollow ichigo's cero?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-806-6/bleach/chapter-352.html

Probably not, but he's not getting hit by that by a long shot. Seriously, Ulquiorra has a better chance of hitting a moving Starrk with his lance. With that ridiculously long charge time, the fact that he can apparently only shoot them while stationary, and that this is freakin' Starrk we're talking about...

..come on, the guy was dodging time-altered reflected ceros from Ukitake Juushirou that came out of freakin' nowhere.



Starrk would have a extremely hard time getting out of the way of that and we all saw what happened to ulquiorra when he took it head on.

Yeah we did, his head (where the cero was aimed at) was perfectly intact, and he loses his lower half across the same area where he was cut by the sword.


And that is not even considering getsuga tensho into the who thing. How would starrk deal with that should it come to it?

I don't know, be totally unfazed by it like everyone else who's ever been it by it?


IMO hollow ichigo would have about as an overwhelming victory as he did against ulquiorra at the very least

IMO it would be only a few moments before one of those wolves blows up in its face, damaging the mask and knocking him out of that form.

Hystzen
February 26, 2011, 04:30 PM
You're giving the beast too much intelligence credit. The bloody wolves were probably smarter than Ichigonator. Why would it notice or care that Starrk spawned them. Also, yes actually, they're supposed to be pieces of Starrk and Lilynettes soul, so I would assume they have the same or similar reiatsu to Starrk. Theres no way that hollow Ichigo is going to continue chasing after Starrk when it has the wolves chasing and biting at him.



Probably not, but he's not getting hit by that by a long shot. Seriously, Ulquiorra has a better chance of hitting a moving Starrk with his lance. With that ridiculously long charge time, the fact that he can apparently only shoot them while stationary, and that this is freakin' Starrk we're talking about...

..come on, the guy was dodging time-altered reflected ceros from Ukitake Juushirou that came out of freakin' nowhere.




Yeah we did, his head (where the cero was aimed at) was perfectly intact, and he loses his lower half across the same area where he was cut by the sword.



I don't know, be totally unfazed by it like everyone else who's ever been it by it?



IMO it would be only a few moments before one of those wolves blows up in its face, damaging the mask and knocking him out of that form.

the wolves arent that powerful
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-18.html

that is what the wolves did to a shikai and mask person...plus love and rose not known for speed feats...

ichigo with speed bankai and mask and spam GT he can handle the wolves no trouble really.

Smerten
February 26, 2011, 04:57 PM
ichigo... he can dodge byakuyas senbonzakura he can take care of wolves ichigo can do his reliable spam GT attacks to clear out waves of wovles..ichigo blinked missed starrk after grimmjow fight..after his death with ulq he came back with new mask and possible a power up too then knocked yammi on his ass with half his reistu..heck his GT cleaved Aizen so bad he admitted without houg he would have died.

ichigo has the fire power and he can take hits...also starrk has never fought a bankai opponent..he never did any major to damage to shikai state enemies..look at love and rose took some wolves hardly that badly damaged...shunsui took a cero which fried his clothes ...starrk never dealt any serious damage to a person in friggin shikai state. he also starts of sealed and ichigo always goes bankai first if ichigo could take it lilynette first starrk cant release..

it is possible for him to win the match with 100% resolve as it a tournament we can igonore the hollow up and down power levels and have ichigo WHO COULD SENSE AIZEN IN COCCON form when isshin and urahara coundnt ...plus unohana was shocked how much ichigo has and she know likes of shunsui and ukitakes ..it assumed by her comments his reistu is higher than shunsui or ukitake

Yeah, but that's his potential. His incredible potential was stated again and again throughout the series as being outstanding, scary even. Indeed. But even with this incredible potential he was shaking like a chihuahua before Aizen and Gin. This potential only came to fruition AFTER the dangai training.

So that's what I think. Talent and Reiatsu wise, Ichigo has the potential to beat Starrk. That part I definitely agree with. But he still lacked the necessary control over his powers at the "deadline" of the tourney's rules. In that regard, combined with a ton of other reasons already stated, I'm going to side with Starrk on this one.

Hystzen
February 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
Yeah, but that's his potential. His incredible potential was stated again and again throughout the series as being outstanding, scary even. Indeed. But even with this incredible potential he was shaking like a chihuahua before Aizen and Gin. This potential only came to fruition AFTER the dangai training.

So that's what I think. Talent and Reiatsu wise, Ichigo has the potential to beat Starrk. That part I definitely agree with. But he still lacked the necessary control over his powers at the "deadline" of the tourney's rules. In that regard, combined with a ton of other reasons already stated, I'm going to side with Starrk on this one.

not really potential unohana noticed it when he had only half on way to FKT and sensing coccoon aizen like it was no big deal before he went into dankai..his reiastu was that large he didnt grow in it after dankai ..it was already there just kubo did the whole hollow drain flutuation level drama. the training just kicked out his hollow from sapping his dispair as kubo wrote it.

in this tournament we dont have that drama so we can have his reiastu level pre dankai with a out to kill attitude and no hollow drain.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 05:17 PM
the wolves arent that powerful
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-18.html

that is what the wolves did to a shikai and mask person...plus love and rose not known for speed feats...

ichigo with speed bankai and mask and spam GT he can handle the wolves no trouble really.

And that was what, like three wolves that they got hit by? Ichigo's durability ain't that much greater than Love or Rose, if at all. GT Spam? He doesn't have a GT metralleta lol, what's the fastest he can pump those things out at? Moreover, the wolves reform from damage and come from multiple directions; his GTs only go straight.

tousendrinksbleach
February 26, 2011, 05:22 PM
IMO it would be only a few moments before one of those wolves blows up in its face, damaging the mask and knocking him out of that form.

you are correct , however it takes 10 times less for hollow ichigo to reduce starkk to nothingness
wolves ? come on he is fast enough for ulq in r2 not to even see him ... you can send your wolves but they wont even make it to him , although i think hollow ichigo would love to see what they do and will let a few explode at him

Hystzen
February 26, 2011, 05:43 PM
And that was what, like three wolves that they got hit by? Ichigo's durability ain't that much greater than Love or Rose, if at all. GT Spam? He doesn't have a GT metralleta lol, what's the fastest he can pump those things out at? Moreover, the wolves reform from damage and come from multiple directions; his GTs only go straight.

he can fire GT in a 180 degree arc...he can fire 3 in volleys..ichigo took byakuyas bankai in shikai and laughed..that beating grimmjow gave him he still stood up..ichigo is damn durable and that was before he could draw his mask. love took ten wovles roughly ..if ten wolves do such superficial damage then ichigo got nothing worry bout

Gran Maestro
February 26, 2011, 06:05 PM
I think Starrk curbstomps Ichigo who fought Ulquiorra and Yammy. But then Super Hollow Ichigo emerges and claims victory. I think at least senior captain bankai is necessary to stand a chance against the beast. Even though Starrk may put up an admirable effort using the wolves, I believe the raw power of Ichigo is just too much. I guess the wolves can't break the horn if Hollow Ichigo is ready to tank the attack. Super Hollow Ichigo wins.

El Samurai Guapo
February 26, 2011, 06:25 PM
he can fire GT in a 180 degree arc...he can fire 3 in volleys..ichigo took byakuyas bankai in shikai and laughed..that beating grimmjow gave him he still stood up..ichigo is damn durable and that was before he could draw his mask. love took ten wovles roughly ..if ten wolves do such superficial damage then ichigo got nothing worry bout

Bykuya's bankai ain't exactly the epitome of damage dealing. Unless we're talking senkei here, the base bankai petals don't impress me. Come back after taking a hit with Sajin's bankai and they'll we'll talk about impressive durability. Not saying Ichigo is weak as a tank, but I seriously doubt he could be much better than Love. In fact I think Love would throttle Ichigo easier than Ulquiorra did.

Also, where do you see 10 wolves? First time around he gets hit by one: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-12.html
Second go we only have two confirmed wolves that hit him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-15.html

Ichigo will also have it worse than Love and Rose cause he's only one target. Granted that I do believe Starrk cannot summon more wolves than the ones he showed, but the only reason why he didn't have any more to send was because (other than the few Love and Rose got hit by) the rest seemed to have been destroyed by Izayoi Bara. The wolves seem to regenerate from anything doesn't instantly obliterate them the way that tech of Rose did. GT is just a cutting attack so honestly it's not going to do much to stop the wolves.

freshseth83
February 26, 2011, 07:22 PM
That super hollow ichigo form was a one off. It was never used again. I question it's ability to even be brought out again. He DIED, and the only reason he didn't stay dead was because of "Kurosaki-kun, Kurosaki-kun, Kurosaki-kun, etc. etc. etc." Where's Inoue in this fight? nowhere to be seen. So how is that form going to come into play if he can't even master his own mask? Starrk handled two Vizard Captains. Who had mask and some pretty strong abilities in shikai. Hell, Starrk ATE a strong ass fire attack from Love like it was nothing. He lied there while lillynette pep talked him to fight. Once he got in the mood the match was pretty much over for Rose and Love. They couldn't get away from the wolves. They couldn't get rid of the wolves. They could only get hit by them. What makes Ichigo different? Full hollow form or not he'll get ate up by the wolves.

tousendrinksbleach
February 26, 2011, 07:32 PM
That super hollow ichigo form was a one off. It was never used again. I question it's ability to even be brought out again. He DIED, and the only reason he didn't stay dead was because of "Kurosaki-kun, Kurosaki-kun, Kurosaki-kun, etc. etc. etc." Where's Inoue in this fight? nowhere to be seen. So how is that form going to come into play if he can't even master his own mask? Starrk handled two Vizard Captains. Who had mask and some pretty strong abilities in shikai. Hell, Starrk ATE a strong ass fire attack from Love like it was nothing. He lied there while lillynette pep talked him to fight. Once he got in the mood the match was pretty much over for Rose and Love. They couldn't get away from the wolves. They couldn't get rid of the wolves. They could only get hit by them. What makes Ichigo different? Full hollow form or not he'll get ate up by the wolves.
not really ... his hollow warned him not to die if he doesnt want to see him again ...
this is slightly off topic but aizen found FGT something on a superior level than even the hogyuku which is making aizen immortal ... ichigo getting revived had nothing to do with inoue (unless you are using the anime logic ...)

freshseth83
February 26, 2011, 09:12 PM
That's manga logic there bud. Inoue wasn't around for this fight. She's not going to be able to 'help' him with his will to protect. That was in the manga, not just the anime. She screamed Kurosaki-kun about 20 times, his inner hollow just took over. Who's to say that will even happen here? Ichigo before the dangai training was up and down on the power scale. It was his hollow that was messing with him, that's why. And you mean to tell me that he'll all of sudden have its help? I don't think so.

Calisto
February 26, 2011, 11:01 PM
Definitely Stark. Masked Ichigo seems to be on a released Grimmjow's level.

Cyber34
February 27, 2011, 01:27 AM
Before Ichigo fought Ulquiorra I would say Starkk would dominate this mathup, but at lower then half strength Ichigo injured espada 0 Yami in his first released state. The Ichigo that returned to the living world with Reiatsu that surpass normal captains would win this match.

Random101
February 27, 2011, 01:36 AM
Keep in mind the wounded Patched Kenpachi was doing more damage than half state Ichigo ever was. Needless to say by sheer comparison that's not as impressive as you're making it out to be. >>

En Yang Ji
February 27, 2011, 01:45 AM
I thought orihime healed Kenpachi.

El Samurai Guapo
February 27, 2011, 01:56 AM
you are correct , however it takes 10 times less for hollow ichigo to reduce starkk to nothingness
wolves ? come on he is fast enough for ulq in r2 not to even see him ... you can send your wolves but they wont even make it to him , although i think hollow ichigo would love to see what they do and will let a few explode at him

Right, because he reduced Ulquiorra to nothingness that fast. Hollow Ichigo sonido's in front of Ulquiorra (which shocked him for some reason). That tells us he can move quicker than Starrk exactly how? Starrk wouldn't try to melee him either, if H Ichigo sonido'd in front of him Starrk would just back away from him and let his wolves handle him.

Above all Hollow Ichigo stands around for long periods of time. Heck had Ulquiorra not been off with the lance by a few millimeters we wouldn't be having this conversation. The wolves obviously aren't going to miss. They're heat-seeking/regenerating and sentient, each packing power far beyond that of a cero.
[hr]

En Yang Ji
February 27, 2011, 02:03 AM
Perfect Hollow Form Ichigo was able to cause a huge amount destruction to the environment with a wave of his sword. His sword didn't touch the ground, just the shockwave from it was enough to destroy the environment just like HG Aizen and post dangai training Ichigo.

Crystal Black
February 27, 2011, 02:09 AM
I voted for Ichigo. I know Starrk might /will win this match-up. Starrk is strong no doubt he fought with four captains and held his own for quite some time, but the thing is I don't see how he can get to Ichigo mentally in this match. Starrk is lazy as shit and everyone knows this but when put in danger he will fight like he did against Shunsui and his color game. I just don't see how he would mind rape Ichigo ike Ulquiorra did.Ichigo's mind set is as huge as anything dealing with his character but this is a non issue right now. Ichigo has the speed to dip and dodge his ceros and wolves (I don't know about cero metralleta), and mask which gives him great defense. In this particular match Getsuga Tenshou might actually be useful "definately against wolves". Starrk is quite fast himself but most overrate his combat speed, not saying he hasn't shown the reactions or movement speed to do so because he did. But he's not so blindingly fast that he could speedblitz Ichigo off the bat and get to him with words.


We know how Ichigo is at his highest points, he defeated Kenpachi, Byakuya, and Aizen all of whom are captains or use to be. Ichigo has a shot here but it will be extremely difficult to judge giving the conditions.

Cyber34
February 27, 2011, 02:28 AM
Keep in mind the wounded Patched Kenpachi was doing more damage than half state Ichigo ever was. Needless to say by sheer comparison that's not as impressive as you're making it out to be. >>

All that means is Kenpachi can whoop Starrk as well, even better then Ichigo would.

Tenacious Weezy
February 27, 2011, 03:30 AM
Starrk blasted Shunsui point blank and did no damage to him. I'm extremely sure the Ichigo who fought Gin could tank a few of those Ceros. I've been reading comments and while before I thought Stark would stomp now I think it'd be more in the realm of when Ichigo fought GJ in HM with the difference being Starrks Wolves are more effective than GJ's claw attack on wearing Ichigo out.

Random101
February 27, 2011, 03:37 AM
I thought orihime healed Kenpachi.
No she didn't. She was going to, but Starrk showed up and vanished before either of them could do jack.


Perfect Hollow Form Ichigo was able to cause a huge amount destruction to the environment with a wave of his sword. His sword didn't touch the ground, just the shockwave from it was enough to destroy the environment just like HG Aizen and post dangai training Ichigo.
What you mean like Hitsugaya blew up a room the size of a building with his sealed sword? Remember, collateral damage in Bleach means jack. Which is particularly why it was so hilarious that Kubo thought such meager displays of power were supposed to be impressive there. Aizen easily trumped it by causing people who got too close to blow up.

Calisto
February 27, 2011, 12:03 PM
Well Kenpachi was healed by someone before his fight with Yammy, because his injuries are gone. It was probably by Isane.

hajialibaig
February 27, 2011, 12:13 PM
Meh, if we are talking about Ichigo in the form that defeated R2 Ulquiorrra, then Starrk doesn't stand a chance.

Ichigo takes it.

benelori
February 27, 2011, 02:11 PM
I think Ichigonator is a pretty vague term...Ichigo managed to tame that power and Zangetsu's and became a monster that defeated Aizen...so judging from that I think that Ichigonator is very very strong...

However the same goes for Starrk...his battle abilities are better than Ichigonator's, his brain will be an advantage, not the firepower...

That's why I think Starrk can take this, and I voted for him...Ichigonator isn't that durable to withstand thousands of Ceros, wolves...Starrk takes this slowly, and with a lot of headache

Jackk
February 27, 2011, 02:34 PM
What you mean like Hitsugaya blew up a room the size of a building with his sealed sword? Remember, collateral damage in Bleach means jack. Which is particularly why it was so hilarious that Kubo thought such meager displays of power were supposed to be impressive there. Aizen easily trumped it by causing people who got too close to blow up.

And Stark was already doing something very similar to that to hollows (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-388-page-7.html) in Hueco Mundo lol...

Takahashi
February 27, 2011, 05:14 PM
Everyone giving this to Ichigo is apparently assuming that in a non-"themaincharactercan'tdie" situation, Ichigonator will be coming out to save the day every time he's about to lose? You've got to be really stretching to assume that.

I always thought it had a lot to do with:

1. The Hollow-like hole punched in his chest
2. Orihime apparently causes Ichigo to be unbeatable even when he was clearly fucked 2 seconds ago

I don't see either of these two things happening in a fight against Stark. And even if it did happen, I don't see Stark going down easy either. At any rate, I can't give Ichigo a majority win when all of his hopes clearly rest on a story based, situational transformation.

xXan
February 28, 2011, 02:26 AM
I remember the mods saying we can use terminator mode but we need to explain how will that come up. Going to try to do that below:

You know there is actualy a chanse for Terminator mode to come up. He needed the hole in his chest (close to death situation) and then a good motive for his willpower to kick in(Kurosaki-kun, save me) to get to the next level in his hollow mode. As we all know Ichigo's hollow becomes more powerfull as the manga whent on.

Now if Ichigo losses control to his hollow (not that imposible) then the terminator version of his hollow is out. The hole+Orihime was only needed for his hollow to advance to that stage and there is no need for something like that to summon it again, if Ichigo is going to lose control to the hollow like many times in the manga then the terminator mode would show up.

Even Ichigo was scared to use his holofication vs Aizen because of this and also noticed something wrong with his holofication mode:

First here:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-36557-7/bleach/chapter-379.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-36557-8/bleach/chapter-379.html
Then here:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-44833-9/bleach/chapter-388.html

So there is a chanse terminator mode would show up ... But to base the arguments on a CHANSE something would happen is not right with me... Even if it shows up Ichigo is going to do everything he can to suppress it (even if he probably can't). Still the chanses that this would happen is to low to base a win on it.

Normal Ichigo (no terminator mode) would get destroyed by Starrk. I am going to vote with Starrk (even if Ichigo is my fav carater in this manga).
Now if people whant to vote for Ichigo because of this one chanse (very small one to) then well... People can do whatever they whant.

MonsterEnvy
February 28, 2011, 02:35 AM
Starrk blasted Shunsui point blank and did no damage to him. I'm extremely sure the Ichigo who fought Gin could tank a few of those Ceros. I've been reading comments and while before I thought Stark would stomp now I think it'd be more in the realm of when Ichigo fought GJ in HM with the difference being Starrks Wolves are more effective than GJ's claw attack on wearing Ichigo out.

actully the cero did burn him a bit but Starrk was not trying to kill him (if he was he would have unloaded 1000 cero's at once into his back)

Honestly Starrks powers stack he can atleast fire 1000 cero's at once with no draw back probbley more hell he can be super mean and just start rapid firing Gran rey cero's (all espada can use it bet Starrk could use 100's at once)

freshseth83
February 28, 2011, 03:53 AM
I don't see how Hollow Ichigo is going to come out. He was dead before and it didn't come out. The only reason it came out was "Kurosaki-kun" x20! Seriously without Orihime there, it's my thinking that hollow Ichigo won't do crap. he'll let him die and take over his body afterwards. He even said the thing he wanted to protect wasn't what Ichigo wanted to protect. Take of that what you will, but all along the Hollow in Ichigo wasn't trying to help out. Ichigo was trying to force it. The reason hollow Ichigo was so superior to Ulquiorra is because h-Ichigo was pure. He wasn't some arrancar. He didn't have anything 'done to him' he was pure hollow, and beyond what Ulquiorra was. Starrk on the other hand is about the same. When he had his flashback, he always looked the same. He wasn't a hollow that removed it's mask. To me he just seemed to be VL level, maybe stronger, seeing as how he split his soul. Starrk wins this. That's my opinion. This ichigo can't compete.

benelori
February 28, 2011, 05:02 AM
Everyone giving this to Ichigo is apparently assuming that in a non-"themaincharactercan'tdie" situation, Ichigonator will be coming out to save the day every time he's about to lose? You've got to be really stretching to assume that.

I always thought it had a lot to do with:

1. The Hollow-like hole punched in his chest
2. Orihime apparently causes Ichigo to be unbeatable even when he was clearly fucked 2 seconds ago

I don't see either of these two things happening in a fight against Stark. And even if it did happen, I don't see Stark going down easy either. At any rate, I can't give Ichigo a majority win when all of his hopes clearly rest on a story based, situational transformation.

I would add Hollow Ichigo's existence in there, or rather would replace it with 2).
Anyway overall I agree with you, but since that mode is available, I think it counts for the sake of discussion, because that is probably the only way Ichigo has the slightest chance of winning...I would like to count that nice Bankai form in which he fought Byakuya, but that fight is veery debatable...but even so...it is Starrk's win

WhisperPL
February 28, 2011, 05:20 AM
I think you dont need much strenght if u need to beat someone brainless even if he's 5 time stronger..Ichigo full hollow form is something like Wonderweiss.Nevermind i go for Stark this time :P

Jorge D. Dragon
February 28, 2011, 06:20 AM
I don't understand why people are bringing the loss against Ulquiorra. In fact that loss gave Ichigo power and especially reiatsu boost. Arguably it can go up to twice or even more reiatsu boost. Even Unohana commented on this.
If we forget about his emotional state after his inner Hollow broke out and use an example Ichigo's emotional state from SS and his power after the entering FKT he can beat Starrk. I don't think that his Bankai + new Mask has lower attacking power than Shunsui's Shikai. Also Ichigo's reiatsu in Bankai + new Mask is clearly above twice reiatsu of a Captain, so he is pretty strong and can pull out a victory against Starrk even without that mindless Hollow helping him.;)

Gran Maestro
February 28, 2011, 09:00 AM
Since the circumstances that triggered Zangetsu's and Shirosaki's intervention (against Kenpachi, Byakuya and Ulquiorra) are all plot-related, it's hard to guess their potential role in such a fight. When main character is involved, you can never know what will happen and when. Neither Starrk nor Ichigo will get my vote, it's like shooting in the dark.

EureKA
February 28, 2011, 02:23 PM
If ichigo has mugetsu its a one hit ko.

Lunatic Scream
February 28, 2011, 02:31 PM
I have a hard time seeing Ichigo fight in a tournament at all. He only ever fights when he has something he wants to protect/save. Unless the end point of this tournament is Orihime/Rukia/Chad/any of this friends getting slaughtered, he's not going to have the willpower that actually makes him a strong combatant.

On the other hand, Stark is perfectly capable of fighting at the level of a few captains even when he doesn't particularly care about the fight. Hell, even right before his death he wasn't particularly enthused about fighting and was still holding his own.

In terms of actual feats... I think it's hard to say. Ulquiorra was flat out overpowered by Ichigonator, but we also have nothing to compare Ulquiorra to besides his rank as an Espada. We do know that Ichigo couldn't perceive Stark at all, so in his normal bankai form, it's easy to say Stark takes this, even unreleased.

The wild card is Ichigonator. The fact is, Ulquiorra severely underestimated Ichigonator. I can't imagine Stark would do the same. He's one of, if not THE most analytical fighter seen i nthe series, and wasn't one to flaunt his power, and certainly wasn't arrogant. There's also the question of how Ichigo would BECOME Ichigonator without something to protect. You can say it's not needed, but the only time we've seen Ichigonator, he was spurred into existence by Orihime, so you can't ignore it.

Even if Ichigonator and a released Stark were to fight, it's tough to call because no one knows how strong Ichigonator really is. He's simply significantly stronger than Ulquiorra. Of course, Ulquiorra was significantly stronger than Grimmjow... so it's plausible that Stark is also significantly stronger than Ulquiorra... maybe even more so.

I guess, bottom line, Ichigo's victory has too many "ifs" that need to be filled in. Stark's doesn't, so I have to go with Stark.


If ichigo has mugetsu its a one hit ko.
He doesn't, it's in the rules. If he did, he wouldn't even be able to fight the next match.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
February 28, 2011, 02:33 PM
If ichigo has mugetsu its a one hit ko.

Read the first post.... He does not have his final form.

Overall i'd give this to Stark.

lets see.....

Speed: Stark>Ichigo
Strength: Stark>Ichigo
Intelligence: Stark>Ichigo

face it guys Ichigo's only major feat here is pwning the 4th Espada.
Its already been said that the gap between Espada 4 to 1 is HUGE and yet people still try to reason that if Ichigo was able to speed blitz Ulquarra he should be able to do the same against Stark which is pretty ridiculous in my honest opinion and not to mention the fact that as everyone has already pointed out there are certain "conditions" that need to be met BEFORE he goes Ichigonator which i do not see happening in a fight against Stark.

leshrak
February 28, 2011, 04:05 PM
Even Ichigonator can't beat Stark in my opinion. Even if he's physically stronger, Stark is still faster (he was able to dodge Shunsui's cheapshots and his own reflected ceros on close range) and definitely a lot smarter! Ulquioras lance is nothing compared to 1000 ceros + wolfs + speed + strategy. I don't think ichigonator's can handle all of this

Raizen
February 28, 2011, 05:39 PM
I think if we go by the performance that ichigo displayed in his fight with ulquiorra, it is pretty much safe to say starks can beat ichigo even unreleased.

But if we take the ichigo that fights gin, then starks will be given more of a challenge but in the end starks will win.

Starks is too much of an overwhelming force. He is smart, analytical, fast, calm, and basically the best showing espada.

If we are to take into consideration ichinator, then things gets complicated. A question is how will ichigo take that form? He only transformed due to the influence of orihime. Had she not been there, he would have remained lying on the floor dead. But truth is ichinator is an incredibly powerful fighter. While his intellect is not lacking like that of the hollow ichigo that fought with the vizards, it is not as smart as the white ichigo or the one that fought byakuya. Does it have the power to beat starks? I think so. Can it? That is another story. Ulqui underestimated ichigo because ichigo was human but starks doesn't underestimate anyone. Starks does have the tools to bring down ichinator but it will be tough.

So i will only take into consideration regular ichigo. SO starks wins

leshrak
February 28, 2011, 05:47 PM
Indeed, Ichigonator is not like vaizard mask. Ichigo can't transform at will and i don't think Orihime will be there crying Kurosaki-kun while Stark stomps Ichigo ^^

En Yang Ji
March 01, 2011, 02:09 AM
SS Ichigo would probably win, due to his speed, but since it isn't him fighting Starrk wins.

TheChosenOne
March 01, 2011, 02:38 AM
Is Ichigo able to use any of his forms prior to Dangai volitionally or does it need to meet any specified requirements. If he is able to use any of his forms willingly then Stark loses in my opinion. Hollow Form 2 > Stark. :)

Starks strongest weapon are his wolves, but will that even affect Form 2. Ichigo was able to stop Ulq's Lance barehanded, so would the wolves even damage his to an extent where Stark can finish him. :confused

Random101
March 01, 2011, 02:59 AM
Damage, probably not. Knocking him out of the form however is a piece of cake if it was the cero that did it, no way in hell that was stronger than a wolf. And if it was the energy lance, energy sword, same deal, only issue being he has to actually attempt it. After that it's over.

xXan
March 01, 2011, 03:12 AM
Read the first post.... He does not have his final form.

Overall i'd give this to Stark.

lets see.....

Speed: Stark>Ichigo
Strength: Stark>Ichigo
Intelligence: Stark>Ichigo

face it guys Ichigo's only major feat here is pwning the 4th Espada.
Its already been said that the gap between Espada 4 to 1 is HUGE and yet people still try to reason that if Ichigo was able to speed blitz Ulquarra he should be able to do the same against Stark which is pretty ridiculous in my honest opinion and not to mention the fact that as everyone has already pointed out there are certain "conditions" that need to be met BEFORE he goes Ichigonator which i do not see happening in a fight against Stark.

After his second stage we have no idea wher U(he's number, just look at Yammy and how he's number changes based on stuff) is. But ichigo never "pwn" the 4 Espada... That was his terminator moda .... Ichigo got completly owned by U in his first release.

biggchiefmo
March 01, 2011, 11:39 AM
i read earlier in the thread that this includes all of ichigo's abilities and progressions up until he trained in the precipice world right. if that is true than hands down ichigo wins, that form (fully hollowified with horns)dominated ulquiorra in every way possible except intelligence as it was mostly just a mindless killing machine. but as ulquiorra quickly learned ichigo in that form doesnt allow opponents time to use their superior intellect. i suspect that fully hollowified ichigo would destroy stark in a same fashion. just his speed, brute strength and killer instinct alone would be enough.
also i'd like to think that starks laziness would be his undoing, stark is great but not as much as he's given credit for, he only beat kyouraku because he was partially distracted, not to mention he didnt go bankai which i'm sure would own any of the espada. we've seen stark go all out only once, but we've seen ichigo do so countless times, and in every situation he's faced with always seems impossible for him to win, yet he always does.

conclusion: the more the fight looks unwinnable, the better ichigo will perform.

benelori
March 01, 2011, 12:10 PM
i read earlier in the thread that this includes all of ichigo's abilities and progressions up until he trained in the precipice world right. if that is true than hands down ichigo wins, that form (fully hollowified with horns)dominated ulquiorra in every way possible except intelligence as it was mostly just a mindless killing machine. but as ulquiorra quickly learned ichigo in that form doesnt allow opponents time to use their superior intellect. i suspect that fully hollowified ichigo would destroy stark in a same fashion. just his speed, brute strength and killer instinct alone would be enough.
also i'd like to think that starks laziness would be his undoing, stark is great but not as much as he's given credit for, he only beat kyouraku because he was partially distracted, not to mention he didnt go bankai which i'm sure would own any of the espada. we've seen stark go all out only once, but we've seen ichigo do so countless times, and in every situation he's faced with always seems impossible for him to win, yet he always does.

conclusion: the more the fight looks unwinnable, the better ichigo will perform.

Laziness? Maybe before the release but after that he fought pretty seriously IIRC...and Ichigonator stomping Ulqui doesn't mean that he will stomp Starrk, especially since Starrk is stronger, and just by the fact that he is #1, but he actually proved it...so this is why Ichigonator's only supposed advantage is brute strength, which can be countered by intelligence, speed and firepower...and yes I believe that Starrk is faster, and has the firepower to take out Ichigonator

Raizen
March 01, 2011, 01:22 PM
Is Ichigo able to use any of his forms prior to Dangai volitionally or does it need to meet any specified requirements. If he is able to use any of his forms willingly then Stark loses in my opinion. Hollow Form 2 > Stark. :)

Starks strongest weapon are his wolves, but will that even affect Form 2. Ichigo was able to stop Ulq's Lance barehanded, so would the wolves even damage his to an extent where Stark can finish him. :confused
But the explosion could knock ichinator back to his regular form the same way the cero did in the manga. Or perhaps it was the cutting of the horn but starks could accomplish that as well :amuse

But how would he get to that form exactly? There is no orihime to annoyingly call his name and he is not protected by plot

Junior
March 01, 2011, 01:31 PM
I was looking on this thread earlier on my phone...and I want to say this, and only this.

Nearly every time I viewed the Chapter Discussion thread, I've seen people validating Yammy's role as the "strongest" Espada because of his numerical ranking.

Ichigo dominates when Yammy's not released. When Yammy released? It still looked like Ichigo was in control (for a moment)...and he wasn't even at full strength.

That's the whole "my clothes are a measure of my reiatsu" thing that was presented. Ichigo, at FULL power, with full control of his mask would have disposed of Yammy.

Yeah, I said it.

Plus, Ichigo's kind of the main character -- ya'know?

I'm voting for Ichigo.

TheChosenOne
March 01, 2011, 01:54 PM
But the explosion could knock ichinator back to his regular form the same way the cero did in the manga. Or perhaps it was the cutting of the horn but starks could accomplish that as well :amuse

Well the only reason slicing the horn worked against Ichinator was becase of it's own Cero blasting back. Simply slicing the horn shouldn't produce the same result. :)

Another big advantage for Ichigo would be that there are nobody else in the fight, just Stark. The only reason why Ulq was able to stop Ichigo was Ishida stopped Ichigo from destroying Ulq. Stark should have no such situations come up where he can defeat Ichigo when he is distracted by another situation. :)

Ulq also had an advantage due to him being able to ceaselessly regenerate certain body parts, Stark doesn't have that ability. If and when Ichigo does mortally wound Stark, he ain't getting back up. :)


But how would he get to that form exactly? There is no orihime to annoyingly call his name and he is not protected by plot
Ichigo has access to every form and skill he has shown prior to entering the Dangai where he trained with his father. This includes what he used to fight Gin (and also his hollow form that defeated Ulquiorra).

Well one of the mods state that he has access to any form/ability prior to Dangai training. I'm guessing that means he can use the form willingly. :)

Hystzen
March 01, 2011, 01:56 PM
But the explosion could knock ichinator back to his regular form the same way the cero did in the manga. Or perhaps it was the cutting of the horn but starks could accomplish that as well :amuse

But how would he get to that form exactly? There is no orihime to annoyingly call his name and he is not protected by plot

he has access no matter what..the rules also state ichigo can be in SS mood with his power level just before entering dankai no broken resolve.

also according to new Hell movie all it takes to break him out of perfect hollow ichigo mode he only needs his horn cut off..one scene he snaps it off himself..later renji cuts it to save him

tousendrinksbleach
March 01, 2011, 02:10 PM
Laziness? Maybe before the release but after that he fought pretty seriously IIRC...and Ichigonator stomping Ulqui doesn't mean that he will stomp Starrk, especially since Starrk is stronger, and just by the fact that he is #1, but he actually proved it...so this is why Ichigonator's only supposed advantage is brute strength, which can be countered by intelligence, speed and firepower...and yes I believe that Starrk is faster, and has the firepower to take out Ichigonator

all of you saying such "funny" comments only use a => and forget about the damn <= :-_-
starkk can beat ichigonator because he is smarter ? how about ichigonater's cero will smoke starkk ?

anyway ,only one thing to say :
1////ichigonator = hollow ichigo using ichigo's full strengh (like against byakuya )
2////ichigo had 2* captain reatsu at the moment
3//// hollow ichigo has hih speed regeneration
1+2 +3 = starkk wins ?


edit : since when starkk is that strong ?beaten by shikai love if he doesnt use wolves and beaten by shikai senior captain ... i do highly doubt anyone but yama or a senior captain in bankai can even fight ichigonator

Raizen
March 01, 2011, 02:15 PM
Well the only reason slicing the horn worked against Ichinator was becase of it's own Cero blasting back. Simply slicing the horn shouldn't produce the same result. :)

Another big advantage for Ichigo would be that there are nobody else in the fight, just Stark. The only reason why Ulq was able to stop Ichigo was Ishida stopped Ichigo from destroying Ulq. Stark should have no such situations come up where he can defeat Ichigo when he is distracted by another situation. :)

Ulq also had an advantage due to him being able to ceaselessly regenerate certain body parts, Stark doesn't have that ability. If and when Ichigo does mortally wound Stark, he ain't getting back up. :)

Well one of the mods state that he has access to any form/ability prior to Dangai training. I'm guessing that means he can use the form willingly. :)
Hey Chosen :jbya

I would think an explosion from the wolf would produce the same result as the cero. Thus causing ichinator to revert back.
Furthermore, with many wolves in front of him, the mindless ichinator would lose focus of starks in a way wouldn't he? Similar to how ishida took teh focus from ulqui

If starks does get fatally injured by ichinator, it would not look good for him. But starks has shown to be very durable. His speed and skills also makes it really hard to hit him. Unlike ulqui, he does not underestimate his opponent so it will be hard for ichinator to surprise him

I think that form is very situational. Though i still did take it into account
[hr]

he has access no matter what..the rules also state ichigo can be in SS mood with his power level just before entering dankai no broken resolve.

also according to new Hell movie all it takes to break him out of perfect hollow ichigo mode he only needs his horn cut off..one scene he snaps it off himself..later renji cuts it to save him
We can't nitpick certain parts of ichigo in different parts of the manga and combine them. We can only pick a certain ichigo at a certain time. So if we pick the ichigo against gin, then he has the resolve he had during that fight, not the resolve against byakuya. U get it?

And movies are not canon

Hystzen
March 01, 2011, 02:17 PM
Hey Chosen :jbya

I would think an explosion from the wolf would produce the same result as the cero. Thus causing ichinator to revert back.
Furthermore, with many wolves in front of him, the mindless ichinator would lose focus of starks in a way wouldn't he? Similar to how ishida took teh focus from ulqui

If starks does get fatally injured by ichinator, it would not look good for him. But starks has shown to be very durable. His speed and skills also makes it really hard to hit him. Unlike ulqui, he does not underestimate his opponent so it will be hard for ichinator to surprise him

I think that form is very situational. Though i still did take it into account
<hr noshade size="1">

We can't nitpick certain parts of ichigo in different parts of the manga and combine them. We can only pick a certain ichigo at a certain time. So if we pick the ichigo against gin, then he has the resolve he had during that fight, not the resolve against byakuya. U get it?

And movies are not canon

not canon but kubo wrote it this time..it cant be just chance that slicing his horn removes him from this state 3 times.

Raizen
March 01, 2011, 02:21 PM
not canon but kubo wrote it this time..it cant be just chance that slicing his horn removes him from this state 3 times.
Did kubo really write it?
I thought the whole cutting the horn thing was just the movie guys trying to copy manga

tousendrinksbleach
March 01, 2011, 02:24 PM
Unlike ulqui, he does not underestimate his opponent so it will be hard for ichinator to surprise him


ok , say ulq didnt underestimae him ? now , what ? he still loses since he only has ceros (weaker than hollow ichigo's ...) + that lanza attack or whatever it's called , and weh ave seen hollow ichigo take it bare-handed.
also , the distraction was just a plot device to revert ichigo back since his cero did more damage than ulq could regenerate and the game was over anyway ...
i'm sorry , but 2* captain reatsu + hollow in control doesnt sound good for starkk , the proof is that everyone is just trying to cut off the ichigonator's horn instead of trying to make up a fight lol

Raizen
March 01, 2011, 02:35 PM
ok , say ulq didnt underestimae him ? now , what ? he still loses since he only has ceros (weaker than hollow ichigo's ...) + that lanza attack or whatever it's called , and weh ave seen hollow ichigo take it bare-handed.
also , the distraction was just a plot device to revert ichigo back since his cero did more damage than ulq could regenerate and the game was over anyway ...
i'm sorry , but 2* captain reatsu + hollow in control doesnt sound good for starkk , the proof is that everyone is just trying to cut off the ichigonator's horn instead of trying to make up a fight lol
I am having a hard time understanding u but i'll respond anyways.

What exactly is captain level reiatsu? Both renji and ikkaku has captain level reiatsu since they have bankai. So using the argument that ichigo has 2x captain level reiatsu is not a good argument.

Although individually starks' ceros aren't deadly, if u add it together (say 1000), they will slow u down if not injure u. Starks is one of the best attack spammers in the manga, it will be difficult to get around his ceros. Even if u do, he is quite agile

tousendrinksbleach
March 01, 2011, 02:48 PM
I am having a hard time understanding u but i'll respond anyways.

What exactly is captain level reiatsu? Both renji and ikkaku has captain level reiatsu since they have bankai. So using the argument that ichigo has 2x captain level reiatsu is not a good argument.

Although individually starks' ceros aren't deadly, if u add it together (say 1000), they will slow u down if not injure u. Starks is one of the best attack spammers in the manga, it will be difficult to get around his ceros. Even if u do, he is quite agile

1- his ceros can be dodged by speed and since ulq couldnt see hollow ichigo then i think hei s fast enough to run (dont forget they are ceros and they wont follow him once he dodge them)
2-i dont even think he will have to dodge them ... he can blast them off with his own cero
3-injure you ? but hollow ichigo can regenerate any damage done to him as long as he has that horn
4- when ichigo had captain reatsu , we have seen when his hollow took control agaisnt byakuya ... sorry ,but now with double reatsu , i think you are the one who is giving weak arguments

TheChosenOne
March 01, 2011, 02:54 PM
Hey Chosen :jbya

I would think an explosion from the wolf would produce the same result as the cero. Thus causing ichinator to revert back.
Furthermore, with many wolves in front of him, the mindless ichinator would lose focus of starks in a way wouldn't he? Similar to how ishida took teh focus from ulqui

I don't understand how just an explosion will make Ichigo to revert back. The reason he reverted back was because Ulq cut of his horns which were creating his cero. With one horn gone, the cero destabilized and blasted in front of Ichigo thus shattering his mask. :)

Also the wolves didn't mortally injure (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/16.html) Rojuro and Love, from what was shown the vaizard captains were still in an somewhat passable condition, sure they were most likely defenseless but it's not like they lost a limb or such. :)

The fact that Ichigo was able to catch Ulq's Lance barehanded (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/12.html) and then destroy it with no adverse effects to him like wounds or scars, shows that, that Ichigo is pretty durable. :)


If starks does get fatally injured by ichinator, it would not look good for him. But starks has shown to be very durable. His speed and skills also makes it really hard to hit him. Unlike ulqui, he does not underestimate his opponent so it will be hard for ichinator to surprise himSure Stark is durable but I seriously doubt that he would be able to shrug off strikes (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/14.html) from Ichigo. :)

His speed is great, but Hollow Form V2's speed is also something. I mean Ulq had great speed which supposedly increased when he used his V2 release. So considering Ichigo was able to outmatch Ulq speed to the point where Ulq could not follow (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/10.html) him, shows that Ichigo's speed is something tremendous. :)


I think that form is very situational. Though i still did take it into accountTrue but considering the mods allow Ichigo to have access to that form when need be should give Ichigo the advantage. :)

Raizen
March 01, 2011, 03:04 PM
1- his ceros can be dodged by speed and since ulq couldnt see hollow ichigo then i think hei s fast enough to run (dont forget they are ceros and they wont follow him once he dodge them)
2-i dont even think he will have to dodge them ... he can blast them off with his own cero
3-injure you ? but hollow ichigo can regenerate any damage done to him as long as he has that horn
4- when ichigo had captain reatsu , we have seen when his hollow took control agaisnt byakuya ... sorry ,but now with double reatsu , i think you are the one who is giving weak arguments
1. Shunsui is a shinigami with top speed, but it is literally impossible to keep dodgin thousands of ceros. Just because ulqui can't follow him does not mean starks can't

2. But how many can his ceros negate? If he tries to fire a cero, he leaves himself open to be barraged

3. Did he regenerate when ulqui cut off his horn? If starks can produce an explosion similar to teh cero, he can revert ichigo back like in the manga.

4. This makes no sense. Again, captain reiatsu is a broad term. i don't see how i am giving weak arguments when I am stating situations which could happen while all u can say is that ichinator is strong because he beat ulquiorra, who was the 4th espada :darn
[hr]

I don't understand how just an explosion will make Ichigo to revert back. The reason he reverted back was because Ulq cut of his horns which were creating his cero. With one horn gone, the cero destabilized and blasted in front of Ichigo thus shattering his mask. :)

Also the wolves didn't mortally injure (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/16.html) Rojuro and Love, from what was shown the vaizard captains were still in an somewhat passable condition, sure they were most likely defenseless but it's not like they lost a limb or such. :)

The fact that Ichigo was able to catch Ulq's Lance barehanded (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/12.html) and then destroy it with no adverse effects to him like wounds or scars, shows that, that Ichigo is pretty durable. :)

Sure Stark is durable but I seriously doubt that he would be able to shrug off strikes (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/14.html) from Ichigo. :)

His speed is great, but Hollow Form V2's speed is also something. I mean Ulq had great speed which supposedly increased when he used his V2 release. So considering Ichigo was able to outmatch Ulq speed to the point where Ulq could not follow (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c351/10.html) him, shows that Ichigo's speed is something tremendous. :)

True but considering the mods allow Ichigo to have access to that form when need be should give Ichigo the advantage. :)
1. Exactly, starks wolves can cause an explosion similar to ichigo's cero. He doesn't need to mortally wound ichinator, he just needs to produce a blast strong enough to knock him back... which he can

2. Ichinator is durable, but the head is a very vulnerable area. Again, the wolves are capable of producing an explosion similar to the manga.

3. But how fast is ulqui relative to starks? Starks was able to appear and disappear as if he teleported right in front of ichigo. I would say that is some speed as well

TheChosenOne
March 01, 2011, 03:18 PM
1. Exactly, starks wolves can cause an explosion similar to ichigo's cero. He doesn't need to mortally wound ichinator, he just needs to produce a blast strong enough to knock him back... which he can

I think this explosion means end all for Ichigo is kinda getting far-fetched. As for knocking him back, what exactly do he mean, could you elaborate further. :)


2. Ichinator is durable, but the head is a very vulnerable area. Again, the wolves are capable of producing an explosion similar to the manga.

Again, an explosion would not have the same result that it did against Ulq, considering the situation is different. The main reason why it worked was because Ulq sliced of his left horn, which most likely destabilized the cero. :)


3. But how fast is ulqui relative to starks? Starks was able to appear and disappear as if he teleported right in front of ichigo. I would say that is some speed as well

True, but the point I was trying to make was that Stark's speed isn't something that will give him a clear advantage as Ichigo's did against Ulq. :)

tousendrinksbleach
March 01, 2011, 03:27 PM
1. Shunsui is a shinigami with top speed, but it is literally impossible to keep dodgin thousands of ceros. Just because ulqui can't follow him does not mean starks can't

2. But how many can his ceros negate? If he tries to fire a cero, he leaves himself open to be barraged

3. Did he regenerate when ulqui cut off his horn? If starks can produce an explosion similar to teh cero, he can revert ichigo back like in the manga.

4. This makes no sense. Again, captain reiatsu is a broad term. i don't see how i am giving weak arguments when I am stating situations which could happen while all u can say is that ichinator is strong because he beat ulquiorra, who was the 4th espada :darn
<hr noshade size="1">


you fourth point clearly means you are kidding me ... but i ll still answer you
1-when you are firing ceroes, and i shunpo right behind you , just tell me who is the one who is exposing himself?
3- why are you telling me this? i clearly said as long as he has the horns
+
didnt you say starkk is stronger than ichigonator? why are all your points leading to cutting the horn?

another thing : as i have told you before, you are only saying what benefits you and are neglecting the rest ... i could just say that starkk is fast enough to match yama's speed, then tell you that yama will lose if starkk keeps firing wolves for 10 mins and yama stands at the same spot and try tanking them , does this mean starkk will really last more than 10 secons agaisnt yama ? (9 seconds will be used to release the zan btw :p)


as for whoever is deleting my posts , this is a tounament isnt it ? we are supposed to have different point of views and argue about them :-_-

Takahashi
March 01, 2011, 03:42 PM
I've always found it odd how an attack that Ichigonator caught with his bare hands is the same attack that sliced off his horn.

Random101
March 01, 2011, 03:45 PM
That's the magic of plot. That or the mask isn't particularly sturdy. Later's pretty likely.

tousendrinksbleach
March 01, 2011, 03:45 PM
I've always found it odd how an attack that Ichigonator caught with his bare hands is the same attack that sliced off his horn.

maybe like when he fought kenpachi ... i mean the different between focused and careless

Takahashi
March 01, 2011, 03:47 PM
That's the magic of plot. That or the mask isn't particularly sturdy. Later's pretty likely.

Considering the Vaizard mask repeatedly saved Ichigo's life in SS, I'd imagine the better version would be more durable than his skin :P Unless Ichigonator had super Hierro that we never knew about.

Random101
March 01, 2011, 05:10 PM
Nah, that's the defense granted for explosions. You'll note once put up to anything physical he specifically stops it, ie: Grimmjaw, or it completely shatters it, Ie: Ulquiorra shoving his own sword into his face. Admittedly though there isn't much precedent to go by, but I'd probably put my money on that.

biggchiefmo
March 01, 2011, 06:51 PM
this is my main thing, ichigo displayed 10x the power output of ulquiorra in his final resurrection state, effectively makin ulquiorra seem more like a fraccion than an espada. though ulquiorra is no proper measuring stick to stark, like someone else mentioned he did for a while hold his own against yammy the strongest espada.

also as i see it there is a reason why the final 4 opponents of aizen were who they were. the smartest (Urahara)the fastest(yoruichi), the strongest (ichigo & isshin). anyone that didnt make it to that point in the manga had to be considered weaker by default. but when it all came down to it the smartest couldnt be on equal terms with aizen, nor the fastest, aizen could only be taken down by over whelming strength and force. so people saying that stark being smarter than ichigonator really doesnt hold much weight.

think of like as if it was the movie "the watchmen" right. the worlds smartest man poses no greater threat than does it tiniest insect, to a person that's practically superman. ichigonator is beyond superman in my opinion.

Cooper
March 01, 2011, 07:39 PM
Sadly Ichigo has no chance of winning even against sealed Starrk.
But once Ichigonator mode is ON --> R.I.P. Starrk.

thornofcarrion
March 02, 2011, 01:23 AM
I will side with Ichigo. I think he can dodge those wolves and the guns, while close the distance. With his hollow powers V.2, he can deliver fatal damage to Starkk.

AlB
March 02, 2011, 02:12 PM
I will side with Ichigo. I think he can dodge those wolves and the guns, while close the distance. With his hollow powers V.2, he can deliver fatal damage to Starkk.

Even if Ichigo, by some miracle, manages to dodge Stark's wolves (Which, as I said, requires a miracle, all the evidence in the manga screams at us that Ichigo can not even follow Stark's movements... in his Bankai form, mind you. His body parts will be flying before he as much as moves a muscle.

Ichigo will have to regenerate his head... and I don't see that happening :)

El Samurai Guapo
March 02, 2011, 02:16 PM
I don't even think Yoruichi or Soi Fon would be able to dodge the wolves.

Plus, the wolves aren't ceros, dodging them doesn't mean you got rid of them. They will follow you and keep coming forever until they bite you and explode.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 02, 2011, 02:23 PM
Even if Ichigo, by some miracle, manages to dodge Stark's wolves (Which, as I said, requires a miracle, all the evidence in the manga screams at us that Ichigo can not even follow Stark's movements... in his Bankai form, mind you. His body parts will be flying before he as much as moves a muscle.


I know right *facepalm*

People keep forgeting that Ulquarra basically speed blitz'd Ichigo before he even knew what hit him and i'm pretty sure Stark and his wolves are faster considering he is the number 1 espada and Ulquarra is 4th.

Not to mention the fact that the wolves are like flames and i do not see Ichigo destroying ALL of them with anything in his arsenal.

Jackk
March 02, 2011, 02:28 PM
Yeah, Rose's Masked Izayoi Bara obliterated some wolves, but there were still just too many of them. The wolves even sneaked on them from behind and they were targeting both Love and Rose. I don't see how Ichigo could dodge those wolves...

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 02:35 PM
It's not even a matter of dodging wolves. Like BaddAzzKenpachi said, R1 Ulq completely speedblitzed Ichigo. How is he going to keep up with #1, who he couldn't even follow while unreleased? Forget the wolves, Ichigo can't even keep up with Stark himself, who also has a much more effective long range tool than Ichigo does. Ichigo loses this fight many times harder than Mayuri. Because barring his story dependent transformation, he has literally no chance here. He's not fast enough, not strong enough, not smart enough, not hax enough, and even Ichigonator is 100% speculation.

El Samurai Guapo
March 02, 2011, 02:37 PM
Ichigo definitely has nothing like Rose's izayoi bara that can permanently destroy any of the wolves. His GT is basically just a long-range cutting attack, the wolves would regenerate from that easily. In any case they'd be on his ass quicker than he can say "Getsuga"

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 02:39 PM
Ichigo definitely has nothing like Rose's izayoi bara that can permanently destroy any of the wolves. His GT is basically just a long-range cutting attack, the wolves would regenerate from that easily. In any case they'd be on his ass quicker than he can say "Getsuga"

GT is still an energy attack, I'd imagine it would have a similar effect to Izayoi Bara, I don't expect it to look like when Love was swinging at them. That being said, trying to GT them would look like when Ichigo tried to Shikai GT Byakuya's Bankai. He'll keep them at bay for a second or two, then be nuked.

El Samurai Guapo
March 02, 2011, 03:21 PM
GT is still an energy attack, I'd imagine it would have a similar effect to Izayoi Bara, I don't expect it to look like when Love was swinging at them. That being said, trying to GT them would look like when Ichigo tried to Shikai GT Byakuya's Bankai. He'll keep them at bay for a second or two, then be nuked.

No because Izayoi bara is an explosion. GT is just a slicing attack which would likely just pass right through the wolves. In order to prevent them from regenerating you need an explosion that will instantly obliterate them.

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 03:28 PM
No because Izayoi bara is an explosion. GT is just a slicing attack which would likely just pass right through the wolves. In order to prevent them from regenerating you need an explosion that will instantly obliterate them.

Is that really a requirement? At any rate, Ichigo=fucked.

El Samurai Guapo
March 02, 2011, 03:38 PM
There supposed to be like flames, I imagine that the only way to get rid of them is to extinguish them completely in one move.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 02, 2011, 03:53 PM
There supposed to be like flames, I imagine that the only way to get rid of them is to extinguish them completely in one move.

I'd say a overwhelming attack from Yama's shikai may be enough to do so for instance but nothing Ichigo has shown.

benelori
March 02, 2011, 06:05 PM
Not to mention the fact that the wolves are like flames and i do not see Ichigo destroying ALL of them with anything in his arsenal.

Maybe his own Cero? That was pretty powerful and overwhelmed Ulqui...so I guess his Cero would be more powerful than the wolves, but hey...the numbers count here and he will be overwhelmed...

Somehow like thorn said, Ichigonator might be able to dodge the wolves, but not starrk, and I don't think he can land a hit on the guy

Gran Maestro
March 02, 2011, 06:29 PM
It's interesting to see that people think Starrk has a chance against Super Hollow Ichigo. Not that I object to that but when this hollow first emerged, everybody did say that this hollow was invincible due to his feats against Ulquiorra R2 who was thought to be much stronger than the next strongest arrancar because of his Segunda Etapa.

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 06:32 PM
It's interesting to see that people think Starrk has a chance against Super Hollow Ichigo. Not that I object to that but when this hollow first emerged, everybody did say that this hollow was invincible due to his feats against Ulquiorra R2 who was thought to be much stronger than the next strongest arrancar because of his Segunda Etapa.

Well, there's still plenty of us that think that's horse shit :tem

Ulq obviously got more powerful because of his transformation, but when there's zero comparable evidence, I don't see how anyone can say he's automatically better than Stark.

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 07:36 PM
If Stark wins this does he fight Kenpachi next?

Tsukisama
March 02, 2011, 07:45 PM
If Stark wins this does he fight Kenpachi next?

Actually, the winner of this fight shall fight the winner of Hitsugaya versus Yammy. So, if Starrk wins, he shall either fight the frosty lad or the great behemoth. Kenpachi shall next be facing Shinji.

Jackk
March 02, 2011, 07:50 PM
If Stark wins this does he fight Kenpachi next?

Nope. Like Tsukisama said... if Stark wins this, he's going to fight either Hitsugaya or Yami. And Kenpachi is going to be facing Shinji.

Here is the Bracket: http://mangahelpers.com/gallery/bleach-tournament/14117

biggchiefmo
March 02, 2011, 08:02 PM
i think we are all forgetting the fundamentals of a fight as it relates to the "bleach world" as said by kenpachi when he fought ichigo, fights are decided by whom has the stronger reiatsu, that's why ichigo could move faster and predict kenpachi's moves but could not cut him.

ichigonator has reiatsu that can only be matched by aizen and yama-jii. ichigonator is most likely what a real vasto lordes is like, which i mind you by popular opinion of the characters is freakin unstoppable, none of the espada were vasto lordes, and of course not stark otherwise he would have crushed everyone on the battlefield and left it with his life intact. instead he died at the hands of someone who didnt even go bankai. i mean come one guys.

S/N i find your lack of faith in the "MAIN CHARACTERS" abilities disturbing.

Lunatic Scream
March 02, 2011, 08:20 PM
i think we are all forgetting the fundamentals of a fight as it relates to the "bleach world" as said by kenpachi when he fought ichigo, fights are decided by whom has the stronger reiatsu, that's why ichigo could move faster and predict kenpachi's moves but could not cut him.

ichigonator has reiatsu that can only be matched by aizen and yama-jii. ichigonator is most likely what a real vasto lordes is like, which i mind you by popular opinion of the characters is freakin unstoppable, none of the espada were vasto lordes, and of course not stark otherwise he would have crushed everyone on the battlefield and left it with his life intact. instead he died at the hands of someone who didnt even go bankai. i mean come one guys.

S/N i find your lack of faith in the "MAIN CHARACTERS" abilities disturbing.

Speculation ahoy! "Ichigonator has reiatsu that can only be matched by Yama or Aizen" is about as baseless as statements get. We have no idea what sort of Reiatsu Ichigonator has. Well actually, we do. He couldn't paralyze a low class opponent like Uryu with only his presence/reiatsu. And by popular opinion of the characters means very little, Hitsugaya is perpetually wrong about everything, every character thought they could handle Aizen, and Unohana thought Ichigo had some chance of beating Aizen as he was BEFORE he did his hyperbolic time training. What a joke, right?

And if I am not mistaken, Kubo verified that the top 3-4 Espada were vasto lordes in a data book, or something. (Though I may have heard wrong)

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 08:21 PM
People seem to think that a sealed Stark could decapitate Ichigo before he even realized what had happened.

What is that based on?

Random101
March 02, 2011, 08:25 PM
Ichigo not even being able to see Starrk move for starters. While he was weighed down by Orihime no less while he was indeed fully healed and in Bankai. >>

Suffice to say Starrk is FAST.

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 08:31 PM
And yet Ichigo couldn't follow an R1 Ulquiorra's sonido from on top of that tower, yet he still reacted to his attack.

Attack speed =/= movement speed. Big difference between the two.

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 08:37 PM
i think we are all forgetting the fundamentals of a fight as it relates to the "bleach world" as said by kenpachi when he fought ichigo, fights are decided by whom has the stronger reiatsu, that's why ichigo could move faster and predict kenpachi's moves but could not cut him.

ichigonator has reiatsu that can only be matched by aizen and yama-jii. ichigonator is most likely what a real vasto lordes is like, which i mind you by popular opinion of the characters is freakin unstoppable, none of the espada were vasto lordes, and of course not stark otherwise he would have crushed everyone on the battlefield and left it with his life intact. instead he died at the hands of someone who didnt even go bankai. i mean come one guys.

S/N i find your lack of faith in the "MAIN CHARACTERS" abilities disturbing.

That's because he's not deserving of faith when he only lives because of the plot.

I also really, REALLY hate the greater Reiatsu = auto win argument. Yes, Reiatsu is important, but so is speed, power, ability etc. To total it up to one single factor means that every fight becomes simple, boring, and IMO blatantly wrong.
[hr]

And yet Ichigo couldn't follow an R1 Ulquiorra's sonido from on top of that tower, yet he still reacted to his attack.

Attack speed =/= movement speed. Big difference between the two.

Just barely deflecting it as to not lose his head isn't a reaction feat I would brag about.

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 08:38 PM
Just barely deflecting it as to not lose his head isn't a reaction feat I would brag about.

Way to miss the entire point.

Takahashi
March 02, 2011, 08:43 PM
Way to miss the entire point.

What was the point?

#4 speedblitzes, Ichigo barely doesn't lose his head
#1, who has already shown to move faster than Ichigo can even follow

I don't think Ichigo would be insta owned on the first shot, but you can't blame people for assuming it.

Random101
March 02, 2011, 08:51 PM
And yet Ichigo couldn't follow an R1 Ulquiorra's sonido from on top of that tower, yet he still reacted to his attack.

Attack speed =/= movement speed. Big difference between the two.
Starrk, who Ichigo ACTUALLY can't follow, again despite being weighed down, meaning without Orihime's weight somehow reducing his speed (Explain that Yoruichi if you please. And no I'm not accepting plot on this one) it's going to get even worse. Starrk gets behind Ichigo and not right up in his face where he can see him like Ulquiorra did there. Beheads him before Ichigo can wonder where the hell he went exactly like he did when Starrk was moving somehow slower thanks to Orhime. Then he goes back to sleep, because Ichinator ain't taking him back from a beheading.

Ichigo could, barely, follow Ulquiorra both released forms. Sorta. He could at least clearly see them move and prepare for it, even if he couldn't do anything to actually stop them half the time. Starrk he cannot see move. You're right in that there's a difference between Shunpo speed and attacking speed, but EVERY TIME Starrk uses sonido, Ichigo will have literally no idea where he is until he confirms his new location. That's time in which a blade removes his head from his neck if Starrk's feeling particularly motivated.

Mind I hold that Ichigo might be able to give him some trouble sealed regardless so it's not a rape with his mask, partly because Starrk isn't motivated, but suffice to say if he actually tries Ichigo's going to have it rough. >>

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 08:52 PM
What was the point?

#4 speedblitzes, Ichigo barely doesn't lose his head
#1, who has already shown to move faster than Ichigo can even follow

I don't think Ichigo would be insta owned on the first shot, but you can't blame people for assuming it.

The point is, is that attack speed =/= movement speed, otherwise you know Kenpachi would have been dead a long time ago.

Using Ichigo not being able to follow a base Stark's speed as the reason he'll lose his head doesn't make sense, because he also couldn't follow R1 Ulquiorra's sonido from the top of the tower and his head was still attached to his neck.

The Ichigo/Ulquiorra one isn't the only example, this has been shown in the manga multiple times. Saying movement speed = attack speed in general is like saying someones shunpo = there zanjutsu speed.

Random101
March 02, 2011, 08:53 PM
Again, Ichigo could follow his sonido. Barely. He saw where Ulquiorra was going most of the time in all forms. Starrk is the only one who literally VANISHED from his sight when he moved.

While weighed down.

El Samurai Guapo
March 02, 2011, 08:55 PM
Most important thing is that Starrk gains the biggest boost by using his resureccion because while sealed his other half is still removed from him. Released Starrk probably up there with Yoruichi in terms of speed.

Calisto
March 02, 2011, 08:56 PM
Starrk, who Ichigo ACTUALLY can't follow, again despite being weighed down, meaning without Orihime's weight somehow reducing his speed (Explain that Yoruichi if you please. And no I'm not accepting plot on this one) it's going to get even worse. Starrk gets behind Ichigo and not right up in his face where he can see him like Ulquiorra did there. Beheads him before Ichigo can wonder where the hell he went exactly like he did when Starrk was moving somehow slower thanks to Orhime. Then he goes back to sleep, because Ichinator ain't taking him back from a beheading.

Ichigo could, barely, follow Ulquiorra both released forms. Sorta. He could at least clearly see them move and prepare for it, even if he couldn't do anything to actually stop them half the time. Starrk he cannot see move. You're right in that there's a difference between Shunpo speed and attacking speed, but EVERY TIME Starrk uses sonido, Ichigo will have literally no idea where he is until he confirms his new location. That's time in which a blade removes his head from his neck if Starrk's feeling particularly motivated.

Mind I hold that Ichigo might be able to give him some trouble sealed regardless so it's not a rape with his mask, partly because Starrk isn't motivated, but suffice to say if he actually tries Ichigo's going to have it rough. >>

Nope, Ichigo couldn't follow Ulquiorra's sonido otherwise his blade wouldn't have been at his neck. Ichigo only started to move once Ulquiora tried cutting off his head. So it's exactly like Stark, he couldn't follow his sonido either.

Similar thing happens with Hitsugaya and Harribel.

Harribel assumes he's down for the count and starts talking to Yamamoto, Hitsugaya comes behind her, with his blade so close to her eye, yet when he actually goes for the stab, Harribel reacts and successfully dodges.

Jackk
March 02, 2011, 09:02 PM
Most important thing is that Starrk gains the biggest boost by using his resureccion because while sealed his other half is still removed from him. Released Starrk probably up there with Yoruichi in terms of speed.

That's actually a pretty interesting point. It is true that Stark's release is different from the other arrancars. Stark actually separated his soul in two and goes back to full power when reuniting with his other half. And yeah, Stark's speed is really amazing, not only could Ichigo and Kenpachi not follow him, but Stark's speed also surprised the likes of Shunsui, Ukitake, and love too. Stark literally vanishes when he uses his sonido... :blink

Random101
March 02, 2011, 09:03 PM
Nope, Ichigo couldn't follow Ulquiorra's sonido otherwise his blade wouldn't have been at his neck. Ichigo only started to move once Ulquiora tried cutting off his head. So it's exactly like Stark, he couldn't follow his sonido either.
No. A heavily wounded Bankai Ichigo saw, and braced for Ulquiorra's second release attack the instant he moved. He could see it, he just couldn't do anything about it. There's a line between seeing and reacting you aren't comprehending there. Ex: In base Ichigo saw Ulquiorra's sword strike coming before Orihime saved his ass, we see his eye moving right there to acknowledge the strike coming, he just couldn't get his sword up in time to block it.

Starrk literally cannot be seen at all even weighed down. Ulquiorra he could see, he couldn't adequately react to half the time however. Most of the time it was twitch reflexes that saved his ass.

That Ulquiorra was playing around probably helped too though. Well, not playing around, but trying to crush his will rather than overwhelm him.

kkck
March 02, 2011, 09:53 PM
Speculation ahoy! "Ichigonator has reiatsu that can only be matched by Yama or Aizen" is about as baseless as statements get. We have no idea what sort of Reiatsu Ichigonator has. Well actually, we do. He couldn't paralyze a low class opponent like Uryu with only his presence/reiatsu. And by popular opinion of the characters means very little, Hitsugaya is perpetually wrong about everything, every character thought they could handle Aizen, and Unohana thought Ichigo had some chance of beating Aizen as he was BEFORE he did his hyperbolic time training. What a joke, right?

And if I am not mistaken, Kubo verified that the top 3-4 Espada were vasto lordes in a data book, or something. (Though I may have heard wrong)

The databook was actually ambiguous about the whole VL thing. It could be interpreted either way as in espada being former VLs and espada being at the VL level. Of course the espada being at the VL level would mean the espada are not former VL since only through shinigamification they acquired the level of a VL.

Lunatic Scream
March 02, 2011, 11:05 PM
The databook was actually ambiguous about the whole VL thing. It could be interpreted either way as in espada being former VLs and espada being at the VL level. Of course the espada being at the VL level would mean the espada are not former VL since only through shinigamification they acquired the level of a VL.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Leave it to Kubo to leave such a hyped plot point so ambiguous in its resolution, huh.

Tsukisama
March 02, 2011, 11:45 PM
In the closest decision of Round 2, Ichigo wins! He shall advance on into Round 3. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny