PDA

View Full Version : Urahara Kisuke vs Kurosaki Isshin



igotthegoods
February 27, 2011, 03:16 PM
Urahara vs. Isshin

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14298.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Urahara

Urahara Kisuke, former captain of the 12th division, is usually seen as a laid-back, jovial fellow, but also shows a deceptively cunning and serious side when the situation warrants it. Having founded the research institute in Soul Society, Urahara has developed a number of unique items which he uses for various purposes. He is a skilled fighter with great proficiency in all areas of shinigami combat. His zanpakutō, Benihime, takes the form of a shikomizue. His shikai has several special techniques. Its primary offensive technique allows him to fire particularly strong and destructive, yet controlled crimson-colored energy blasts and its primary defensive ability forms an hexagonal-shaped "blood mist shield" in front of Urahara. Another set of techniques allow him to form a tangible, blood red net that when thrown over an opponent binds and restricts their movements. Stabbing this net with Benihime causes a series of destructive explosions which can cause tremendous damage to the intended target.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Isshin

Kurosaki Isshin, formerly a powerful shinigami (rank and division unknown, although suspected to be at captain-level), can be grim and serious at times, but typically acts in a goofy, energetic and fun-loving manner. Despite being a little rusty, Isshin has diplayed high proficiency in all areas of shinigami combat. His zanpakutō, Engetsu, has the special shikai ability Getsuga Tenshō, an energy blast that slashes down opponents with a single stroke. His GT has been shown to be so powerful that a large portion of Fake Karakura town was demolished and reduced to nothing more than a large crater.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Random101
March 10, 2011, 08:24 PM
Tough choice. Urahara's more versatile, but Isshin's outright more powerful. Ignoring that stupid sword kido it'd be pretty evenly split in that regard.

Lunatic Scream
March 10, 2011, 08:29 PM
Tough choice. Urahara's more versatile, but Isshin's outright more powerful. Ignoring that stupid sword kido it'd be pretty evenly split in that regard.

Yeah. I'm not gonna be voting on this one until we get some good discussion going haha.

Hystzen
March 10, 2011, 08:29 PM
i say urahara.

isshin not really shown much i not really bought into the hype about isshin yet ..the fight against aizen to me showed nothing. the only impressive feat is keeping the dankai for 3 months open with his reistu..he has a hugeeeeeeee amount.

urahara wins becoz of his moves and skills we seen..not the omg one kido stuff people say would win but his cqc and shikai abilites.

he might be overhyped but urahara wins this

El Samurai Guapo
March 10, 2011, 08:31 PM
Urahara Kisuke without a doubt. Isshin failed to impress me the way he did others. I think Kisuke holds the edge in nearly every area. His shikai is a million times better than a one-trick GT pony, he's displayed spectacular kidou, has his inventions, and is obviously a lot smarter than Kurosaki.

Of course Kisuke's got to avoid a direct hit from GT at all costs, but the same can easily said about Ishin and Shibari Benihime.

Takahashi
March 10, 2011, 08:58 PM
Isshin was able to best Aizen when no special abilities were involved. We know that even without KS, Aizen is still a damn powerful Shinigami, so the fact that Isshin actually beat him sealed sword to sealed sword is pretty impressive. I don't think Urahara could do the same.

In terms of swordsmanship, Reiatsu, and power, I'd say Isshin has a pretty significant advantage. In terms of versatility, Urahara, and being a Byakuya supporter, I recognize how important that one advantage is :p. The inventions don't hurt either. I have no idea who would win in terms of speed though.

Assuming the Reiatsu cuffs are allowed, I don't see them being used enough to be much of a game changer, they might warrant him a few kills overall, but not enough to base an argument on.

Seems like a damn close match, but I'm leaning towards Isshin, I'll wait to see more posts.

Raizen
March 10, 2011, 09:07 PM
Not too sure. Isshin is a straightforward and very powerful fighter while urahara is more deceptive and less physically powerful.

In terms of speed, I actually see isshin as being superior. But urahara's shikai is much more versatile. Albeit, one hit from GT and urahara is a goner.

Will not select yet, will wait for more posts :amuse

El Samurai Guapo
March 10, 2011, 09:09 PM
Isshin was able to best Aizen when no special abilities were involved. We know that even without KS, Aizen is still a damn powerful Shinigami, so the fact that Isshin actually beat him sealed sword to sealed sword is pretty impressive.

You mean shikai to sealed sword.

Raizen
March 10, 2011, 09:12 PM
^True, but aizen's sword doesn't increase his strength in any way shape or form though

Takahashi
March 10, 2011, 09:12 PM
You mean shikai to sealed sword.

His sword looked Sealed, we still don't have an explanation as to why Isshin's Shikai (probably constant release) would look so ordinary. At any rate, it's not like he GT'd him to victory, he beat him just by having better swordsmanship.

El Samurai Guapo
March 10, 2011, 09:19 PM
The point is that GT means it was a shikai. Sealed zanpakutous don't have special traits. He's definitely a constant release type like Ichigo and Kenpachi. Comparing shikais Kisuke's is obviously way better, and yeah I do think Kisuke with his shikai could defeat sealed Aizen.

Jackk
March 10, 2011, 09:32 PM
His sword looked Sealed, we still don't have an explanation as to why Isshin's Shikai (probably constant release) would look so ordinary. At any rate, it's not like he GT'd him to victory, he beat him just by having better swordsmanship.

Not every zanpakutou looks different in shikai state though. Anyway, sealed zanpakutous have no features/abilities so he couldn't have used a GT with his sealed sword.

As for this match. I won't make a long post, yet. :toc

But I will say for now that Kisuke Urahara definitely takes this more often than not, in my opinion. Kisuke has shown far more than Isshin. Furthermore, Kisuke is significantly more versatile, he's very powerful in his own right, he's pretty fast, and has a portable gigai substitution technique that could create a good opening for him to get a really good hit in on Isshin.

In addition, Kisuke has also shown amazingly good kido abilities (using several kido spells in quick succession pretty effectively)...even going as far as developing his own sealing kido techs as well as being able to hide sealing kido techs inside other kido blasts completely undetected. Not to mention Kisuke's superior intellect which usually equates to better fighting tactics or strategies as well.

UchihaHunter
March 10, 2011, 11:00 PM
The point is that GT means it was a shikai. Sealed zanpakutous don't have special traits. He's definitely a constant release type like Ichigo and Kenpachi. Comparing shikais Kisuke's is obviously way better, and yeah I do think Kisuke with his shikai could defeat sealed Aizen.
You know, I actually partially agree with you here...I always assumed Isshin was using his shikai against Aizen...however, we did see Rose use a special tech (although we don't know if it's his zan) against the Gillian while his sword was sealed.

Jackk
March 10, 2011, 11:11 PM
You know, I actually partially agree with you here...I always assumed Isshin was using his shikai against Aizen...however, we did see Rose use a special tech (although we don't know if it's his zan) against the Gillian while his sword was sealed.

I think that was some sort of hybrid tech that Rose used. Kinda how Hachi acquired new healing powers similar to orihime's and developed new barriers techs--that cannot be dispelled by shinigami kido-- with his hybrid powers. And we know that Hachi does not even need his Mask to use those abilities, though he does logically get a boost if he wears his Mask. It would make sense seeing as a sealed zanpakutou is well... sealed. You need to be at least in shikai to use its special abilities. Therefore Isshin had to be in shikai if he was using a GT.

NinjaPenguinator
March 10, 2011, 11:19 PM
Isshin will strike first, Slicing at his friends chest. Then Urahara will appear behind him and reveal the one that Isshin just slashed was a gigai as he uses some form of technique (his red net, or a kido) to trap Isshin. Kurosaki will have three options then; Dodge it, Tank it, or Counter it with some form of his own Kido (has he shown any in the manga? I forgot >.> ) I'd guess he would tank it to be honest, maybe releasing a GT instinctively like Ichigo did in his fight against ressurection Ulquiorra

I'll need help to continue the fight after that, but I'm fairly certain that's how it would start. Probably followed by Urahara releasing a barrage of Kidos


This is gonna be a CLOSE ONE!!!!

UchihaHunter
March 10, 2011, 11:27 PM
I think that was some sort of hybrid tech that Rose used. You need to be at least in shikai to use its special abilities. Therefore Isshin had to be in shikai if he was using a GT.
You see how you said "I think"? That's because we don't actually know. You can make assumptions, just like I can make assumptions. Considering we never saw Rose do anything similar, despite him using his mask later, neither one of us has much proof regarding Rose's tech.

Generally speaking, when a new shinigami uses his/her Shikai, they introduce it with a release command and flare. Seeing as how Isshin never did so, you can see why people would think he was using his sealed sword.

Edit: And with the ones that didn't, they were stated to either not know their zanpaktou's name or have always-released zans. Seeing as how Isshin even talked about captain-class shinigami's swords being sealed (IIRC), again, you can see why people don't think his is the same as Ichigo's (despite sharing techs)

El Samurai Guapo
March 10, 2011, 11:27 PM
I don't think he'd survive being blown up by Juzu Tsunagi.

SaintSheik
March 10, 2011, 11:31 PM
^ Chrono Trigger!

Question: Does Isshin have access to FGT? If so, then it is an obvious..But if not, it is really, really hard to tell. I believe Isshin is more powerful than Urahara, but Bleach has a ton of powerful characters that would fall against Urahara and his battle tactics.

It's practically Bleach's Batman against one of Bleach's many Supermen but from what we've seen, I believe Urahara has more than enough up his sleeve to win a tough bout against Isshin. Still there's the "popular vote" factor so there is no telling how this will go.

Jackk
March 10, 2011, 11:36 PM
You see how you said "I think"? That's because we don't actually know. You can make assumptions, just like I can make assumptions. Considering we never saw Rose do anything similar, despite him using his mask later, neither one of us has much proof regarding Rose's tech.

Generally speaking, when a new shinigami uses his/her Shikai, they introduce it with a release command and flare. Seeing as how Isshin never did so, you can see why people would think he was using his sealed sword.

Edit: And with the ones that didn't, they were stated to either not know their zanpaktou's name or have always-released zans. Seeing as how Isshin even talked about captain-class shinigami's swords being sealed (IIRC), again, you can see why people don't think his is the same as Ichigo's (despite sharing techs)

Doesn't matter, you're thinking about it a little too much. A sealed Zanpakutou has no abilities; that's why there is shikai and bankai to provide them with their zanpakutou abilities. GT is a zanpakutou ability as stated by Ichigo. At bare minimum, Isshin was in shikai when he used his GT. And it's very possible that his zanpakutou was constantly released.

Raizen
March 10, 2011, 11:38 PM
^ Chrono Trigger!

Question: Does Isshin have access to FGT? If so, then it is an obvious..But if not, it is really, really hard to tell. I believe Isshin is more powerful than Urahara, but Bleach has a ton of powerful characters that would fall against Urahara and his battle tactics.

It's practically Bleach's Batman against one of Bleach's many Supermen but from what we've seen, I believe Urahara has more than enough up his sleeve to win a tough bout against Isshin. Still there's the "popular vote" factor so there is no telling how this will go.
Except urahara is much more popular than isshin. So i guess we'll see.

Isshin is without the powerhouse among these two.
Brains is good, but i doesn't mean u can win over most people with it. Isshin isn't exactly lacking in intellect

Jackk
March 10, 2011, 11:56 PM
Honestly I don't see what's so amazingly impressive about Isshin keeping up with a sealed Aizen in a sword fight. Particularly since Aizen had likely already used some reiatsu when he faced multiple Gotei 13 captains and vaizards, and even used his illusions on them. Aizen even received a 90th level kido blast from Yama as well as a hollowfied GT from Ichigo and was apparently about to go into a transformation with the Hogyouku.

I mean, I actually do happen to think that Isshin is among the strongest captains, but I don't really think that he's the only one who could have done well in a sword fight against that sealed Aizen. IMO others such as Kisuke, Shinji, and Shunsui could have done well in a sword fight with Aizen if he didn't use illusions. Besides, Isshin was even using Kendo and he didn't actually land a single hit with his sword on Aizen as far as I recall. Granted though Isshin did put Aizen on the defensive for the most part and Aizen later admitted that he was at his shinigami limits.

Tsukisama
March 11, 2011, 12:06 AM
Question: Does Isshin have access to FGT?

No. If Ichigo doesn't get it, then Isshin certainly does not have access to it either.

freshseth83
March 11, 2011, 12:15 AM
I took Isshin. Not to say it wouldn't be a tough fight. But, Isshin is the only one to get up after Aizen blasted the 3 of them (Yoruichi, Isshin, Urahara). Then on top of it had enough reiatsu left to help Ichigo with his training. Dude obviously has something in his lineage/bloodline that makes him have exceptional power. He was obviously a captain at some point. Probably before TBTP arc and after Shunsui Ukitake Unohana. So I'd put him right there behind those top 3. And right above Urahara Byakuya Shinji Kensei level. At least that's my thinking. Urahara is skilled and his Shikai is pretty versatile, but Isshin seems to me to have better speed, better power, better durability.

Yeah he was helped up by Ichigo, but he did tell Ichigo that he had to discover the final GT to defeat Aizen. On top of it he had access to it himself. This tells me he's obviously discovered that feat since he did it before. Saying that, he must have absolute confidence in his abilities to take the chance of using it. Either that or the opponent must have been one tough cookie. I'd love to see more of both these guys, but for me, Isshin is the winner, despite Urahara's tricks and devices.

Tsukisama
March 11, 2011, 01:59 AM
I promised that I would give my thoughts on this thread, and so here I am. :amuse I currently have not made a final decision on the matter. This is a battle of brains versus brawn.

In terms of pure physical capabilities, I would say that Isshin is superior. We have not seen much of him, but his performance against Aizen and then his ability to maintain Ichigo's training for so long speaks quite highly of his strength and endurance. I can't say that I can recall any feats of Urahara that would suggest he has comparable reiatsu to Isshin, and reiatsu is an important factor in Bleach fights.

Urahara, however, is not a purely physical fighter. Urahara seemingly relies more on kidou, his kidou-type zanpakutou abilities, and his inventions in combat, which might catch Isshin by surprise enough for Urahara to win.

If I were to try to think of a likely scenario for the battle, Isshin would probably start with a GT, which Urahara would either dodge using his portable gigai or attempt to endure with his Benihime's shield (which might be more likely as he might like to assess how powerful Isshin's attack is). Isshin would try to get close for close-quarters combat, as Urahara formulates a plan. This is where I see the critical juncture of the fate of this match.

In Isshin's favor: Isshin's physical prowess overwhelms Urahara through relentless CQC to the point where Urahara does not have the opportunity to do something clever.

In Urahara's favor: Urahara manages to bind him with kidou and manages to take advantage of this to implement some sort of killing move or slap him with the handcuffs he used on Aizen.

Both of those situations seem somewhat unlikely to me for some reason. I have a hard time picturing one of them outdoing the other. It is equally difficult imagining Urahara being overpowered as it is for me to imagine Isshin being trapped by Urahara's kidou.

So, that's where I am on this match. Hopefully, someone shall come along with a really persuasive argument to help me cast my vote. :tem

freshseth83
March 11, 2011, 02:52 AM
In the end it's all about endurance IMO. While they may be pretty close in combined abilities, I doubt they're equal in terms of strength and stamina. While Urahara is no pushover, I feel as if Isshin is greater in these areas. While he and Urahara both had good moves against Chrysalis Aizen, the GT he used looked pretty sick. Making craters isn't any indication of how much damage it'd do though. Seeing as how Byakuya and Yammi ate GT's as well as Gin, from Ichigo; it might be strong but it might not be a fight ender. But the GT Isshin fired off was pretty serious. When they went against Aizen, I figured Isshin and Urahara had a plan. And if that plan didn't work fully, Ichigo was their back up. All along I think it was Isshin's intention to teach Ichigo the final GT. I think they realized that they couldn't beat him. Maybe not, but Urahara was smart enough to take advantage of Aizen's carelessness and place the first part of the seal.

But in a fight vs each other, I would say Isshin would come out on top. Arguably he did more to Aizen than Urahara did. Even if the cuffs would have worked, Isshin fought Aizen longer, and the GT like I mentioned looked to be the most devastating attack he took in that form. While the cuffs should do more damage, they ultimately didn't work. Not to say they wouldn't work on anyone else, but how would he get the chance? Isshin is no slouch. I think Urahara would have a better shot against him using kido and Benihime. But catching people with speed like Isshin with kido is going to be hard. That's why I see Isshin winning in the end, maybe 6 out of 10.

Jorge D. Dragon
March 11, 2011, 03:03 AM
I'd go with Isshin in this. Urahara clearly can't win against any Captain without Shikai, cause in every battle he goes with Shikai. He couldn't even scratch Ulquiorra with his Shikai's Getsuga wannabe move.
For El Samurai Guapo: We already had an argument about Isshin and his sword. While fighting against Aizen he was in sealed state. It's obvious. Ichigo had the same sword when he got his Shinigami powers The only difference was its size, cause he couldn't control his Reiatsu. Also in a battle against Menos Grande in the begining Ichigo used Getsuga and against Urahara while they were training. The only difference was that he didn't knew the name of his move. You can ignore the facts, but Isshin's Shikai and Bankai should be like Ichigo's and his sword during the fight against Aizen were nothing like Ichigo's Shikai or Bankai.

For me the fact that Isshin could bring Aizen to his Shinigami limit in pure skill fight while sealed is a damn fit in Isshin's favour. There was actually no one who did better, so it's pretty obvious that he is high tier. Also as we've seen his Kidou skills are also in high league with the best, cause Aizen couldn't find Ichi and Isshin behind Isshin's barrier. Also he has enormous ammount of Reiatsu to keep Dangai during 3 months.
Also Isshin is a damn tank to be not only 1 to stand after Aizen's attack against him, Yoruichi and Urahara, but also he stood up practically immediatly. Also his Getsuga is damn strong. It will clerly one-shot Urahara if Urahara stated that Ichigo's attack during the training in the begining of the manga would have chopped Urahara's hand if he would have tried to tank it.

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 03:05 AM
While Urahara is intelligent, I think it's only really a factor when he has time to plan things. He can make on the fly decisions, but there's no reason to believe that Isshin himself is stupid or reckless. Considering his (Isshin's) performance against Aizen, he's likely very experienced, so I can't imagine he's lacking in fighting tactics. Hell, even Kenpachi, who does one of the stupidest things imaginable in a fight (giving people free shots on him) has shown impressive analytical thoughts that help him in his fights.

Simply put, while I think it's obvious Urahara has an intelligence advantage, in terms of tactics made mid-battle, I don't think he has a substantial advantage over Isshin. Kind of like how Mayuri is many times more dangerous if he has even an hour to plan, I think the same is true for Urahara. Since that's not possible in this tournament, he'll have no choice but to feel out his opponent. He'll have to analyze as he fights, which gives Isshin time to put enough pressure on him to make sure he doesn't get the chance to execute whatever plan he thinks of.

I'm giving it to Isshin with a slight advantage.

Jackk
March 11, 2011, 03:14 AM
Also in a battle against Menos Grande in the begining Ichigo used Getsuga and against Urahara while they were training.

That's not true actually. That was not a GT that Ichigo used to attack the Menos Grande; it was just a huge slash. Ichigo never used a GT until he achieved his shikai. And then we even had Ichigo later telling Byakuya that GT is the technique of his zanpakutou. He needs to be at least in shikai to do it. Sealed zanpakutous have zero special abilities. Therefore, Isshin's zanpakutou had to be in shikai for him to use a GT.

Jorge D. Dragon
March 11, 2011, 03:19 AM
Jackk
Of course he told that it was his Zan's move, but he never said that he should be in Shikai to use it. Also how come simple slash can practically cut such enormous thing as Menos from such distanse? It's rather clear that it was Getsuga, even though it wasn't called. He didn't know the name of his move, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't it.:)
Also your logic is invalid according to Isshin, cause it's rather clear that his sword isn't in Shikai, cause their Shikais should be alike.

freshseth83
March 11, 2011, 03:21 AM
This should be a close one, as should Shinji vs. Kenpachi.

I believe what weve seen so far that Isshin has greater power than Urahara. Urahara has better kido abilities from what weve seen. But Isshin is no slouch the way he 'flicked' kido at Aizen that pushed him through a building or two. In terms of physical strength I would say it's Isshin. Urahara seems more of a 'finesse' type fighter, like Byakuya. Isshin seems a bit more straight forward, more head on, sorta like Kenpachi, just not as brash and brutish. I think the finesse thing will work for a while, but there's no reason to believe Urahara is faster. And no reason to think Isshin is faster. But he did slice king fisher in half with one swing. So to me that shows he has pretty good amounts of power behind him. Urahara has shown some inconsistency in that department. He can cancel other abilities if he equals it with benhime, but then it seemed like it worked better against Chrysalis Aizen than it did vs. someone like Yammi and Ulquiorra. Weird, maybe he altered the strength? Or maybe it was because it was a different technique.

I don't think he'll be able to catch Isshin with those techniques he caught Aizen with. At least not as easily. For one, Aizen was facing 3 opponents. Two, he wasn't really fighting as his normal self, the type that doesn't get hit. And finally, Isshin is just as fast as Urahara, so he'll definitely be on guard and have Urahara the same. If he pushes Urahara I think he'll win. If he doesn't, Urahara has time to use other techniques of his. I think Isshin the way he fights, has the slight edge here. He doesn't seem to let up. I think he's the type to press the issue, and here I feel that's key.

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 03:21 AM
That's not true actually. That was not a GT that Ichigo used to attack the Menos Grande; it was just a huge slash. Ichigo never used a GT until he achieved his shikai. And then we even had Ichigo later telling Byakuya that GT is the technique of his zanpakutou. He needs to be at least in shikai to do it. Sealed zanpakutous have zero special abilities. Therefore, Isshin's zanpakutou had to be in shikai for him to use a GT.

Ichigo said that he'd fired them before though, but never knew how. I always thought that attack on the Menos was a GT. Just a nameless one. Shrug*

Jackk
March 11, 2011, 03:32 AM
Jackk
Of course he told that it was his Zan's move, but he never said that he should be in Shikai to use it. Also how come simple slash can practically cut such enormous thing as Menos from such distanse? It's rather clear that it was Getsuga, even though it wasn't called. He didn't know the name of his move, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't it.:)
Also your logic is invalid according to Isshin, cause it's rather clear that his sword isn't in Shikai, cause their Shikais should be alike.

It's definitely not clear that it was a Getsuga; it just looked like a slash, and considering that there's the fact that sealed swords do not have special ablities, and Ichigo stated that GT was his zanpakutou's special ability... it is very obvious that Ichigo did not use a GT when he had a sealed sword; it's just not possible. :)

Everyone knows that sealed zanpakutous have zero abilities, that is why they are well... you know, sealed. Releasing shikai and bankai gives them special abilities. Also, no, Engetsu being similar to Zangetsu does not equate to Engetsu really needing to look exactly like zangetsu in shikai. Also there are zanpakutous that don't change form in shikai; some zanpakutous still look like sealed swords.


Ichigo said that he'd fired them before though, but never knew how. I always thought that attack on the Menos was a GT. Just a nameless one. Shrug*

Ichigo was referring to him firing the GTs after he attained his shikai while training with Kisuke, and then when he used it against Renji after getting his resolve high in that SS fight. He didn't know how he shot them until he learned how to do them willingly after training with zangetsu and learning the name of his zanpakutou ability. But he always did those nameless GTs while he was already in shikai. The thing he used on the menos was not a GT.

Tonix
March 11, 2011, 04:54 AM
Not every zanpakutou looks different in shikai state though. Anyway, sealed zanpakutous have no features/abilities so he couldn't have used a GT with his sealed sword.


Just like how Urahara can't shoot lasers when his sword is sealed right?

AlB
March 11, 2011, 05:04 AM
Ichigo was referring to him firing the GTs after he attained his shikai while training with Kisuke, and then when he used it against Renji after getting his resolve high in that SS fight. He didn't know how he shot them until he learned how to do them willingly after training with zangetsu and learning the name of his zanpakutou ability. But he always did those nameless GTs while he was already in shikai. The thing he used on the menos was not a GT.

Really? now I know in anime it was red colored, but it had no color in manga so how can you tell? just like Takahashi, I always thought it was GT.

back to topic:
I think Urahara will pull a victory here, his fake gigai trick and 4 consecutive kidos is basically an endgame for any opponent short of Yama, Aizen (cautious) and Barragan. Maybe Shinji might have a chance as well due to Sakanade's effects. Others will just get massacred.

Tenacious Weezy
March 11, 2011, 05:15 AM
Tough call. I'm still waiting for something that makes sense in the arguments. Isshin was able to out duel a slightly beat up Aizen with no Illusions. This proves that in sealed state Isshin is on par or slightly better than in sealed state Aizen. Impressive. Urahara's Energy cuffs stated by Aizen would have killed him before the evolution. Even more impressive. Isshin was able to inflict the only damage that cocoon Aizen was impressed(?) by. Very impressive. It's just feat after feat they out shined each other (basing it on Aizen). Against each other it's a very tough call. On the basis that they don't know each other however I would think Isshin has the advantage but I'm still going to wait to vote.

Kugo Ginjo
March 11, 2011, 05:48 AM
Just like how Urahara can't shoot lasers when his sword is sealed right?

Probably a kido.

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 07:35 AM
It seems to me that Isshin has the edge but I won't vote yet, I'm pretty sure we'll hear some good arguments in favor of Urahara. :D

Isshin pushed Aizen to his shinigami limits, which is a very impressive feat. Yamamoto's Hadō 96 and Ichigo's GT attack most likely took their toll on Aizen and made him reach his limit faster but I don't think Aizen's reiatsu was far below its usual levels when Isshin fought him, he was still strong enough to block Ichigo's sword with his bare hand (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-397/10/).

After fighting shinigami Aizen long enough to exhaust him, Isshin fought cocoon Aizen alongside Urahara and Yoruichi, they all got hit, Isshin was the first to get up and he has supported Ichigo in Dangai for three months. This is terrific endurance. Out of Yoruichi's Shunkō (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-405/12/), Urahara's Juzutsunagi (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-405/16/) and Isshin's GT (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-405/19/), Aizen acknowledged (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-406/04/) Isshin's GT to be far superior.

Of course, Urahara is no pushover. He may not have Isshin's physical strength and endurance but we know that he is very intelligent and he is very skillful at kidō. He has techniques like the reiatsu seal that can finish off Isshin if used successfully. It's kind of hard to argue for Urahara though, he didn't fight much by himself. He had brief fights with sealed Yammy who is the weakest espada. Urahara, unlike Isshin, fought Aizen only after Aizen stopped caring about getting hit and became reckless which provided Urahara with the opportunity to put his gigai trick into good effect and use his kidō on him. We have no idea what would happen if it was shinigami Aizen who fought Urahara but it's fair to say that Aizen wouldn't be that open to attacks.

Aizen suggested that Urahara's power was comparable to his at one point but there are different interpretations of this statement:

1) Urahara was on par with Aizen right before the transformation but since Urahara is under the effects of KS, it's hard to argue that this is the case. I don't think Urahara could put up a good fight against KS by himself.

2) Urahara was on par with Aizen 100 years ago, the last time they met when Aizen was still a VC. Even though Aizen was obviously still captain-class at that time, we don't have any reason to think he was as powerful as he is now, 100 years is a long time to improve yourself. For example, even though Hitsugaya is already strong, he may surpass Shunsui in 100 years time.

3) Urahara's power was comparable to Aizen in the sense that they were both shinigami but Aizen evolved to be something superior.

As a side note, Ulquiorra said that he could defeat Urahara and Yoruichi if they tried to protect the injured. Since Ulquiorra takes his information from Aizen, it's unlikely that Aizen said "Urahara is as powerful as me but you can still defeat him." I checked the raw, the translation in this page (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-194/15/) is wrong, Ulquiorra doesn't say "we'll lose" in the bottom speech bubble, he just says "(Yammy), you can't beat them with your current level", suggesting that there's actually a level that Yammy can beat them. A translator friend confirmed my translation.

In this case, I lean to Isshin, his feats seemed more impressive but as I said, I won't vote yet to hear what other people say about this match-up. ;)

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 09:23 AM
- @Gran Maestro: According to Juni's translation Ulquiorra never said he could beat Urahara and Yoruichi.


- Urahara can use the strategy he taught Ichigo, to look for the opening between consecutive strikes: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v11/c096/15.html

Here's one of my older post:



I don't know anything about kendo, but according this website there is a kendo technique called Renzoku waza: http://www.kendo-guide.com/kendo_techniques.html

Renzoku waza means consecutive strikes.


Look 3:37 minutes, 4:57 minutes, and 6:43 minutes into this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAYCIg3J7co

When they attack consecutively at max they attack 3 times before there is a pause. Maybe that was the opening Urahara was talking about



Isshin likes to make big powerful strikes, so according to Urahara they would be more limited. Look here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/3.html, http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/4.html

Isshin was open on the 2nd strike.

- Urahara's seal may not be as hard to activate as everyone thinks. It seems all Urahara has to do is touch his opponent with his hand twice.

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 09:32 AM
after Shunsui Ukitake Unohana. So I'd put him right there behind those top 3. And right above Urahara Byakuya Shinji Kensei level.

now byakuya is on par with shinji and urahara ? and isshin is weaker than ukitake ... you know, i ont think there are more than 10-11 people that erase all prejudgements they have on characters then read topic discussion before voting


I'd go with Isshin in this. Urahara clearly can't win against any Captain without Shikai, cause in every battle

...
and ichigo who always goes bankai? yamamoto who goes shikai against all those he fought so far?byakuya who releases his sword agaisnt that dude in ss arc (cant spell his name) ......... are they all weak?urahara only fought 2-3 fights, you dont make a rule out of such a small number







As a side note, Ulquiorra said that he could defeat Urahara and Yoruichi if they tried to protect the injured. Since Ulquiorra takes his information from Aizen, it's unlikely that Aizen said "Urahara is as powerful as me but you can still defeat him."

as a side note, ulq said that transforming into a hollow wouldnt help ichigo agaisnt him , shall i remind you how many seconds the fight took ? ulq was clearly fed with aizen's bullshit and clealrly thought aizen was helping hollows because they are stronger than shinigamis







on the outcome : i see that everyone is waiting for some decent arguments, but i have the impression tha many are just looking for who is stronger ... if yes, then just click isshin and vote , the only 3 who are stronger are yama , hogyokuzen and ichigo , but this is a topic where you have to choose between brains and brawn ,and by brain we means ultrageniusness and not above average iq...

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 10:43 AM
- @Gran Maestro: According to Juni's translation Ulquiorra never said he could beat Urahara and Yoruichi.

I don't know who Ju-Ni's translator was at that time but he translated Ulquiorra's words (to Yammy) as "They are far beyond our level, at this rate we'll lose" instead of the correct translation which is "With your level as it is, you can't win". Translators may have some liberty but Ju-Ni, in this case, made up their own story. :D
[hr]

as a side note, ulq said that transforming into a hollow wouldnt help ichigo agaisnt him , shall i remind you how many seconds the fight took ? ulq was clearly fed with aizen's bullshit and clealrly thought aizen was helping hollows because they are stronger than shinigamis

I will be repeating myself for the umpteenth time but use some common sense and try to understand the difference between possible messages from the author and battle trash-talking. If you have a tendency to disregard all the statements you don't like, then be consistent and disregard them all including the ones which support your argument. ;)

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 10:47 AM
The translation here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-194-page-16.html) differs slightly from the one on Juni's website, but Ulquiorra never says in this translation either that he could beat Yoruichi and Urahara.

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 10:52 AM
The translation here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-194-page-16.html) differs slightly from the one on Juni's website, but Ulquiorra never says in this translation either that he could beat Yoruichi and Urahara.

This translation (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-194-page-15.html) still says "We'll lose", which is plain wrong. In the page you posted, Ulquiorra says "If you try to protect the injured and fight me, you most likely lose." ;)

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 10:57 AM
then be consistent and disregard them all including the ones which support your argument. ;)

how very accurate... not
i'm using it as a anti-argument of what you are saying , i'm either missing entirely your point or you are missing mine

and please stop with the kubo messages already, anyone see that kubo uses trolling as a mean to create "suspense" , that's probably what he thinks he is doing with all his ... kubo always tries to make us believe great challenges are comming ( starkk vanishes, n4 is showns to be super powerful , 10vls can eradicate SS ....)only o have the last espada one shotted by none that aizen himself the king of bleach trolls

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 11:04 AM
This translation (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-194-page-15.html) still says "We'll lose", which is plain wrong. In the page you posted, Ulquiorra says "If you try to protect the injured and fight me, you most likely lose." ;)

Even if we assume that Ulquiorra meant he would have the upper hand, isn't that same as anyone else boasting in a fight? Yoruichi didn't think she would lose either.

If there was some truth to what Ulquiorra said it still wouldn't prove much. Ulq has R2 and they would have to protect their friends, which would mean free hits for Ulq.

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 11:06 AM
how very accurate... not
i'm using it as a anti-argument of what you are saying , i'm either missing entirely your point or you are missing mine

If this is your answer, yes, I don't get your point. :blink


and please stop with the kubo messages already, anyone see that kubo uses trolling as a mean to create "suspense" , that's probably what he thinks he is doing with all his ... kubo always tries to make us believe great challenges are comming ( starkk vanishes, n4 is showns to be super powerful , 10vls can eradicate SS ....)only o have the last espada one shotted by none that aizen himself the king of bleach trolls

If you think Kubo is untrustworthy, fine but he is the best we've got. ;)

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 11:11 AM
i'm telling you that ulq believes shinigamis are weaker than hollows (which obviously is only a pride-based statement and also due to his ignorance because hollows dont get into SS parties)
he is overrating his own strengh because mighty godzen gave it to him and fed him ,and all the espada, up with his stories about SS and how they can overthrow shinigamis ...
finally,urahara wasnt trying to destroy half of karakura town , he used the minimum strengh he could that would beat yammy and thus ulq could easily deflect it ... were they in a desert and no one was with them , he would have smoked ulq because, clearly, he travels with his inventions in his pocket

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 11:22 AM
Even if we assume that Ulquiorra meant he would have the upper hand, isn't that same as anyone else boasting in a fight? Yoruichi didn't think she would lose either.

If there was some truth to what Ulquiorra said it still wouldn't prove much. Ulq has R2 and they would have to protect their friends, which would mean free hits for Ulq.

I actually think Urahara (bankai) can defeat Ulquiorra (R2). My point is "Ulquiorra knew who they were (apparently Aizen told him) but he still was not intimidated, which means Aizen didn't tell Ulquiorra that Urahara was as strong as him." Otherwise Ulquiorra would piss his pants, especially if Yoruichi (who is also strong) was by Urahara's side. Ulquiorra thought he would have the upper hand against either Urahara or Yoruichi, while the other was trying to take care of the wounded.
[hr]

i'm telling you that ulq believes shinigamis are weaker than hollows (which obviously is only a pride-based statement and also due to his ignorance because hollows dont get into SS parties)
he is overrating his own strengh because mighty godzen gave it to him and fed him ,and all the espada, up with his stories about SS and how they can overthrow shinigamis ...
finally,urahara wasnt trying to destroy half of karakura town , he used the minimum strengh he could that would beat yammy and thus ulq could easily deflect it ... were they in a desert and no one was with them , he would have smoked ulq because, clearly, he travels with his inventions in his pocket

If Ulquiorra didn't know who Urahara and Yoruichi were, I would say he might be overrating his own strength but he exactly knew how powerful they were, he had this information.

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 11:40 AM
Aizen didn't tell Ulquiorra that Urahara was as strong as him." Otherwise Ulquiorra would piss his pants, especially if Yoruichi (who is also strong) was by Urahara's side. Ulquiorra thought he would have the upper hand against either Urahara or Yoruichi, while the other was trying to take care of the wounded.

+


If Ulquiorra didn't know who Urahara and Yoruichi were, I would say he might be overrating his own strength but he exactly knew how powerful they were, he had this information.

pick up one side then i'll answer you :D + i'm not telling you that this is between ulq and urahara, i'm saying this is between ulq and all shinigamis
in his fight agaisnt ichigo he tells ichigo that no shinigami can beat a hollow <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< this is my point

UchihaHunter
March 11, 2011, 11:47 AM
I think you're misunderstanding the quotes if you think they don't add up.

First quote says that if Aizen told Ulquiorra that Urahara was on his level, then Ulquiorra wouldn't have thought that he would have the upper hand, even if the other was taking care of the wounded.

Second quote says that if he didn't know the names and approximate level, then you could argue he was overestimating himself, but considering he knew that Yammy wasn't on their level (at that time), and he knew how strong they were, that shows that Ulquiorra was never told Urahara was Aizen's equal in overall power...

Edit: This is sorta nitpicking, but wasn't Ulquiorra's point that humans would never be the equal of hollows? He acknowledges that shinigami should imitate hollows to get stronger, but he doesn't continue the statement to say that shinigami could never beat hollows, no? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for him to become an Arrancar.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 11:48 AM
- Let's look at what took place in that battle. Yammy was about to shoot a cero at point blank range. Yoruichi was going to sit there and take it, because Orihime was behind her. Urahara jumped in and dissipated the blast. If we replace Yammy with Ulq R2 and cero with a close range lanza, Urahara likely would of been severely damaged or one hit KO'd.

Ulquiorra did feel he would win, but Ulq still had R2 to rely on and could make them take his most powerful attacks.

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 11:49 AM
pick up one side then i'll answer you :D

These statements aren't contradictory.

Ulquiorra knew how powerful Urahara and Yoruichi were but this power is less than you think.


i'm not telling you that this is between ulq and urahara, i'm saying this is between ulq and all shinigamis
in his fight agaisnt ichigo he tells ichigo that no shinigami can beat a hollow <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< this is my point

Are you sure Ulquiorra didn't say "How can a human defeat an arrancar like me?"

And Ulquiorra's superior officers were all shinigami. :D

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 12:05 PM
These statements aren't contradictory.

Ulquiorra knew how powerful Urahara and Yoruichi were but this power is less than you think.


say what ? you are telling me aizen was sitting on dinners with espada explaining his tactics and sharing his knowledge ? aizen is clearly a manipulative type exactly like urahara (yes urahara is too, but others know it and have faith in him )
i'm telling you, if you take what ulq said as truth then you gotta take what he said when ichigonator poped up , what byakuya said about ichigo training 1000 years and still losing to him (if you didnt notice, byakuya was facerolled and shown mercy twice by a 3days trained ichigo and ulq saw his most powerful attack taken barehanded by ichigonator)


you are only saying that there is a different between what kubo implies and what characters boast about because you want to use whatever you like as an argument and tell to whoever you want that there areguments are false ...





Are you sure Ulquiorra didn't say "How can a human defeat an arrancar like me?"



havent you noticed? it actually happened

now , if it was starkk i would have taken his speech as truth (because his opinion isnt biased and he has high analitical skills ... ) but ulq follows aizen orders blindly , his background is flawed thus any logical statment he tries to make isnt 100% accurate (try to believe that you can divide by zero then you will see miraculous mathematical deduction possible)

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 12:25 PM
say what ? you are telling me aizen was sitting on dinners with espada explaining his tactics and sharing his knowledge ?

Aizen obviously informed Ulquiorra about his potential opponents in human world before the mission. How exactly do you think Ulquiorra knew who they were?

And didn't we see Aizen and espada having a tea party? :D


aizen is clearly a manipulative type exactly like urahara (yes urahara is too, but others know it and have faith in him )
i'm telling you, if you take what ulq said as truth then you gotta take what he said when ichigonator poped up , what byakuya said about ichigo training 1000 years and still losing to him (if you didnt notice, byakuya was facerolled and shown mercy twice by a 3days trained ichigo and ulq saw his most powerful attack taken barehanded by ichigonator)


you are only saying that there is a different between what kubo implies and what characters boast about because you want to use whatever you like as an argument and tell to whoever you want that there areguments are false ...

I'm not specifically talking about you but whenever I quote a manga character, people say "this character is wrong for whatever reason". Usually the excuse is "some character was proven to be wrong at some point" but if we go by this logic, all statements in any manga collapse once a character makes a false statement. Manga characters may be wrong but if manga doesn't give us solid evidence to disregard a statement, if the information isn't superseded by manga itself, then any such statement is better than our opinion. This is how I see things.

If people disregard some statements and then quote other characters to support their arguments, it creates an unfair discussion platform which is based on our individual subjective opinions about who is right and who is wrong. I had the exact same problem in Byakuya vs Yoruichi thread and I don't want to go through it again. Any statement can be claimed to be wrong provided that you have enough creativity to speculate. The more we introduce our speculations to the manga, the further we move away from the possible truth.

I gave you the correct translation, interpret it in any way you wish but don't quote me and say I'm wrong just because you don't agree with the said manga character. Don't shoot the messenger. And don't say "Ulquiorra didn't believe shinigami could defeat him", his Aizen-sama was a shinigami. Ulquiorra actually said (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-351/page017.html) "To think that I would be defeated by a human who had transformed into a hollow", when did he say no shinigami could ever defeat him? Post a link, I hope you aren't pulling stuff out of thin air.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 12:29 PM
What does Ulquiorra statement prove about Urahara's power level?

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 12:35 PM
Aizen obviously informed Ulquiorra about his potential opponents in human world before the mission. How exactly do you think Ulquiorra knew who they were?
.


you took the fact that he knew who urahara was and developped a manga out of it , seriously ... what does this have to do with what he knows about urahara's strengh or if he was misled by aizen or not (again i tell you, aizen isnt stupid to share his thoughts with his pawns ... look at poor tousen , even the one who followed him since he was just a vc was just played)


as for the shinigami and human part , you are missing the point .... its like im telling you that i ll use this pistol to kill a guy and you are telling me that i'm wrong because it's actually a sniper gun....
my point is : ulq analitical skills are not high enough to make eveything he says true : he said a human ransforming into hollow can no beat him but he even oneshoted him

Hystzen
March 11, 2011, 12:36 PM
wait what we now claiming Urahara is below ulq in power level ? all because of ulq bragging, an enemy bragging they stronger then lose quite easy is manga law :fail

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 12:41 PM
What does Ulquiorra statement prove about Urahara's power level?

It suggests that Aizen (who informed Ulquiorra about Urahara and Yoruichi) told Ulquiorra that Ulquiorra could take on either of them by himself. We can at least conclude that Aizen didn't say Urahara was as strong as himself, otherwise Ulquiorra wouldn't be so daring. This is my interpretation of course, feel free to interpret it however you wish. :amuse
[hr]

wait what we now claiming Urahara is below ulq in power level ? all because of ulq bragging, an enemy bragging they stronger then lose quite easy is manga law :fail

No, we're claiming Aizen didn't tell Ulquiorra that Urahara was as strong as himself. lol

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 12:45 PM
It suggests that Aizen (who informed Ulquiorra about Urahara and Yoruichi) told Ulquiorra that Ulquiorra could take on either of them by himself. We can at least conclude that Aizen didn't say Urahara was as strong as himself, otherwise Ulquiorra wouldn't be so daring. This is my interpretation of course, feel free to interpret it

you are either having a different point from the one i think you have , or you are wrong IMO ... ofc aizen didnt tell ulq that urahara was as strong that him , so you are using this to prove that urahara is weaker than ulq?

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 01:02 PM
you took the fact that he knew who urahara was and developped a manga out of it , seriously ... what does this have to do with what he knows about urahara's strengh or if he was misled by aizen or not (again i tell you, aizen isnt stupid to share his thoughts with his pawns ... look at poor tousen , even the one who followed him since he was just a vc was just played)

So Ulquiorra knew who they were but he had no idea how powerful they were and he totally speculated when he said he would have the upper hand against them if they tried to protect the wounded. And Aizen told Ulquiorra that Urahara was weak for the lulz. He would have a good laugh when Urahara thrashed Ulquiorra, what else was the point?

It's apparent that you don't understand where I'm coming from or what I'm talking about.


my point is : ulq analitical skills are not high enough to make eveything he says true : he said a human ransforming into hollow can no beat him but he even oneshoted him

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2340770#post2340770). Ichigo's hollow form who surprised Ulquiorra is a good excuse to disregard everything in the manga in whatever context. IMO Ulquiorra had the second best analytical skills after Starrk among the espada. Anyway, feel free to disagree with me or manga statements, you are entitled to your opinion.
[hr]

you are either having a different point from the one i think you have , or you are wrong IMO ... ofc aizen didnt tell ulq that urahara was as strong that him , so you are using this to prove that urahara is weaker than ulq?

URAHARA ISN'T WEAKER THAN ULQUIORRA.

People don't read posts carefully, so I guess I have to write in capital letters for people to see. Did you read this?


I actually think Urahara (bankai) can defeat Ulquiorra (R2). My point is "Ulquiorra knew who they were (apparently Aizen told him) but he still was not intimidated, which means Aizen didn't tell Ulquiorra that Urahara was as strong as him." Otherwise Ulquiorra would piss his pants, especially if Yoruichi (who is also strong) was by Urahara's side. Ulquiorra thought he would have the upper hand against either Urahara or Yoruichi, while the other was trying to take care of the wounded.

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 01:12 PM
that's the ticket, urahara going bankai to beat ulq ? you are kidding ? ... benehime smokes ulq in R3 if he still could transform
jus read your own post, it's like implying that aizen needs to go bankai to fight ulq in r2 >->

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 01:17 PM
that's the ticket, urahara going bankai to beat ulq ? you are kidding ? ... benehime smokes ulq in R3 if he still could transform

Next time when you make posts in this thread or other battle threads, elaborate your opinion by giving a detailed analysis which let people understand why you think something is the case.


jus read your own post, it's like implying that aizen needs to go bankai to fight ulq in r2 >->

I read my own post, it doesn't imply Aizen needs bankai to defeat Ulquiorra, it says nothing about Aizen's strength.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 01:19 PM
It suggests that Aizen (who informed Ulquiorra about Urahara and Yoruichi) told Ulquiorra that Ulquiorra could take on either of them by himself. We can at least conclude that Aizen didn't say Urahara was as strong as himself, otherwise Ulquiorra wouldn't be so daring. This is my interpretation of course, feel free to interpret it however you wish. :amuse

I disagree with that. Even if we assume Aizen may have told him that Urahara is of a certain level, it's not like Aizen took into R2 consideration . This doesn't suggest that Aizen thought Ulquiorra was on the same Urahara and Yoruichi.

exacta
March 11, 2011, 01:27 PM
that's the ticket, urahara going bankai to beat ulq ? you are kidding ? ... benehime smokes ulq in R3 if he still could transform
jus read your own post, it's like implying that aizen needs to go bankai to fight ulq in r2 >->

:-_-
Benihime smokes Ulq????.....You mean the sword that fired the projectile at Yammy that Ulq intercepted and then proceeded to bitchslap away from him as if it were a fly, all the while not even drawing his zanpakuto?? Oh you mean that sword. Kay. Yeah. Obviously Ulq wouldn't last a second.:facepalm

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 01:44 PM
:-_-
Benihime smokes Ulq????.....You mean the sword that fired the projectile at Yammy that Ulq intercepted and then proceeded to bitchslap away from him as if it were a fly, all the while not even drawing his zanpakuto?? Oh you mean that sword. Kay. Yeah. Obviously Ulq wouldn't last a second.:facepalm

perhaps you stopped reading the manga long before ... you should have read until the part where cocoon aizen fought yoruichi/isshin/urahara

edit : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-18.html

Buzz Killington
March 11, 2011, 01:49 PM
:-_-
Benihime smokes Ulq????.....You mean the sword that fired the projectile at Yammy that Ulq intercepted and then proceeded to bitchslap away from him as if it were a fly, all the while not even drawing his zanpakuto?? Oh you mean that sword. Kay. Yeah. Obviously Ulq wouldn't last a second.:facepalm

Was this supposed to prove anything? You should re-read that scene, Ulquiorra slappping away that particular blast of Benihime isn't very impressive at all =/

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 01:56 PM
I disagree with that. Even if we assume Aizen may have told him that Urahara is of a certain level, it's not like Aizen took into R2 consideration . This doesn't suggest that Aizen thought Ulquiorra was on the same Urahara and Yoruichi.

Or it may suggest Aizen thought Ulquiorra was indeed on the same level as Urahara and Yoruichi at the time as evidenced by the fact that he thought his top 3 espada could defeat Gotei 13 captains in FKT. Aizen was a bit overestimating his espada at the time. If Aizen said "Ulquiorra, you are on par with Urahara" and if Ulquiorra thought "I have R2, I can have the upper hand considering that there are wounded people they have to protect", you can understand what all these guys were thinking.

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 02:03 PM
Or it may suggest Aizen thought Ulquiorra was indeed on the same level as Urahara and Yoruichi at the time as evidenced by the fact that he thought his top 3 espada could defeat Gotei 13 captains in FKT

... so this is your logic? i'm done with this topic , til the next battle
couldnt stop myself from editing .... so aizen brought halibel to kill yamamoto ? lmao

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 02:09 PM
There are a couple of things Aizen could of told Ulquiorra. He could of told him just that they are very strong.

Ulquiorra after witnessing some of their power first hand, knowing his own limits (R2) and assessing the situation (realizing Urahara and Yoruichi were at a big disadvantage since they had to protect injured civilians) may of decided he would have the advantage...

this still says nothing of Urahara's level.


Even if your right and Aizen thought the top 3 Espada could take on Yama, Shunsui, Ukitake, Soi Fong, and Hitsugaya, that just shows he overestimated the Espada...That's what I would think the majority of the MH community would think anyway.

Buzz Killington
March 11, 2011, 02:11 PM
Well actually, Aizen did indeed plan the Top 3 Espada + WW to take out the Gotei, he even went so far as to say it would've been over without him having to lift a finger

That was definitely seeming like it would've happened had the Vizards not shown up. Yamamoto would've been taken out by Wonderweiss all the same

OT: Urahara's said to have been equal to Aizen

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 02:15 PM
There are a couple of things Aizen could of told Ulquiorra. He could of told him just that they are very strong.

Ulquiorra after witnessing some of their power first hand, knowing his own limits (R2) and assessing the situation (realizing Urahara and Yoruichi were at a big disadvantage since they had to protect injured civilians) may of decided he would have the advantage...

this still says nothing of Urahara's level.


Even if your right and Aizen and thought the top 3 Espada could take on Yama, Shunsui, Ukitake, Soi Fong, and Hitsugaya, that just shows he vastly overestimated the Espada...That's what I would think the majority of the MH community would think anyway.

100% what i think too



Well actually, Aizen did indeed plan the Top 3 Espada + WW to take out the Gotei, he even went so far as to say it would've been over without him having to lift a finger

That was definitely seeming like it would've happened had the Vizards not shown up. Yamamoto would've been taken out by Wonderweiss all the same

take the gotei for what reason ? aizen's plan is to "die"so that the hogyoku protects him and gives him power, for that goal he must not do it obviously because the hogyoku doesnt have a high IQ and would think aizen wants to die and will grant his master his wish ...
as for yama, no he intended that yama would kill himself while trying to protect thers from his seale flames that gotten released :)
aizen knows that battles are decided by reatsu he never intended to beat yama with a released WW




OT: Urahara's said to have been equal to Aizen

yes but this might be interpreted as urahara having so much intellect and inventions that it puts him on par with aizen (who IMO was putting himself under only yamamoto since he takes his shikai in concideration...)

Buzz Killington
March 11, 2011, 02:17 PM
Aizen's plan is to die? What on earth. I'm not following you bro

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 02:18 PM
... so this is your logic? i'm done with this topic , til the next battle
couldnt stop myself from editing .... so aizen brought halibel to kill yamamoto ? lmao

Did you read the part I said "Aizen was a bit overestimating his espada at the time"?

And who talked about Yamamoto, I was obviously referring to this:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-316.8/page013.html

Why did you post this picture (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-18.html) to argue for Urahara's strength? This is a very loose attempt, going by your logic, Ulquiorra's LDR sends Urahara to the moon. You need to be more explanatory when you explain your opinion, do you expect people to agree with you just because you posted an explosion? :D

I'll wait for Jackk's post to see what he has in store, even though I mostly disagree with him, he makes a better attempt to explain why he thinks what he thinks.

Kugo Ginjo
March 11, 2011, 02:21 PM
take the gotei for what reason ? aizen's plan is to "die"so that the hogyoku protects him and gives him power, for that goal he must not do it obviously because the hogyoku doesnt have a high IQ and would think aizen wants to die and will grant his master his wish ...
as for yama, no he intende that yama would kill himself while trying to protect thers from his seale flames that gotten released :)

You are making no sense at all

http://www.mangareader.net/94-34415-1/bleach/chapter-376.html
He gathered the espada's to take on the Gotei, why else did he do it?

He never planned to die, he wanted to become the Spirit King (and when he got too strong, he wanted to lose his powers or something) but never was it implied that he wanted to die.

Where are you basing the bolded on?

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 02:25 PM
You need to be more explanatory when you explain your opinion, do you expect people to agree with you just because you posted an explosion? :D



awww no :) it's called opinion because it changes from one to another ... this topic only exist because we have different point of views
i didnt feel like elaborating because this is a isshin vs urahara topic so r2 ulq can die in a fire until his batle time comes.

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 02:27 PM
Even if your right and Aizen thought the top 3 Espada could take on Yama, Shunsui, Ukitake, Soi Fong, and Hitsugaya, that just shows he overestimated the Espada...That's what I would think the majority of the MH community would think anyway.

Aizen thought WW would defeat Yamamoto and espada would defeat everybody else. Yes, he openly admitted that he overestimated his espada, we don't know what Aizen said to Ulquiorra but judging by his comment about Top 3 espada, it's safe to assume he might have thought Ulquiorra could take on Urahara.

And guys, this topic is about Urahara vs Isshin. We will be going seriously off-topic if we keep speculating about the power of the espada, my original point has been lost in the translation transition. :D

Smerten
March 11, 2011, 02:36 PM
My guess is Urahara. He seems to have more versatility. isshin might be likee Ichigo, lots of power, little to no use of kido. We haven't seen it. He MAY be able to use kido, he's shown te be more adept at controling his reiatsu than Ichigo. So all in all, I think Isshin's style is somewhat similair to his sons'.

Urahara is more complete. He is a master of several different areas. Because of Yoruichi, he further mastered Hakudo and possibly Shunpo. He was probably adept in the first place, but their friendship can't have hurt his mastery.
Same story with Tessai. Due to his intellect, talent and friendship with Tessai he gained a sick amount of skill in this area.
And then he's an expert on swordmanship. Plus his shikai is perfect for him to due its versatile nature.
Add to that his intelligence. He's most likely the most intelligent person in the manga. Combine that with sheer versatility, skill, finesse and power, and you get one hell of a deadly opponent.

He took advantage of Aizen not using Kyoka Suigetsu. He loaded a sealing kido into him. So when the Hogyoku "weakened", Aizen was sealed. One can say that Ichigo and Urahara defeated Aizen together.
Though Urahara is strong, he, like a whole lot of other Shinigami (except maybe for Yama), could not overcome Aizen's sheer power. Ichigo was there to pull that little stunt. But if the power gap was that big... see where I'm getting at?

Point is, unless the difference in pure power is too great, Urahara can beat someone pretty good. He's Kurotsuchi on steroids. And even smarter. He's just an amazing strategist. And it's really tough to overwhelm an opponent of Urahara's caliber.

tousendrinksbleach
March 11, 2011, 02:39 PM
Aizen thought WW would defeat Yamamoto and espada would defeat everybody else. Yes, he openly admitted that he overestimated his espada, we don't know what Aizen said to Ulquiorra but judging by his comment about Top 3 espada, it's safe to assume he might have thought Ulquiorra could take on Urahara.

And guys, this topic is about Urahara vs Isshin. We will be going seriously off-topic if we keep speculating about the power of the espada, my original point has been lost in the translation transition. :D

dont insult yamamoto please ... aizen knows what it is to have yama's reatsu , do you believe he thought sealing yama's shikai would make WW beat him ?

Gran Maestro
March 11, 2011, 02:46 PM
dont insult yamamoto please ... aizen knows what it is to have yama's reatsu , do you believe he thought sealing yama's shikai would make WW beat him ?

Aizen thought WW could defeat Yamamoto because he underestimated Yamamoto just like he underestimated everybody else. See this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2307443#post2307443) for detailed explanation and this will be my last off-topic post in this thread. Send a PM if you want to discuss.

El Samurai Guapo
March 11, 2011, 02:48 PM
dont insult yamamoto please ... aizen knows what it is to have yama's reatsu , do you believe he thought sealing yama's shikai would make WW beat him ?

I also don't believe for a minute Aizen expected Wonderwiess to defeat Yamamoto. In fact, Aizen had it all planned for Yamamoto to defeat Wonderwiess and then later have to use his body to contain the explosion, effectively having Yamamoto defeat himself.

AlB
March 11, 2011, 03:28 PM
URAHARA ISN'T WEAKER THAN ULQUIORRA.

People don't read posts carefully, so I guess I have to write in capital letters for people to see. Did you read this?

Duuude :D:D I actually did have a trouble reading this!!! Haha :D :D my background skin is black so dark blue is definitely not the easiest color to distinguish :D

jk.

Seriously, I second this. Urahara most certainly is not weaker than Ulquiorra, I just don't get where people get this. Ulquiorra said they were at disadvantage becuse with Yammi going 0 mode and Ulq going R2 mode would screw Urahara and Yoruichi due a simple fact that the latter two had to protect Ichigo, Chad, Orihime and Tatsuki. e.g. they would hesitate to go all out and they would not be able to fully concentrate on Arrancars. I firmly believe that 1 vs 1 Urahara would demolish Ulquiorra.

Kugo Ginjo
March 11, 2011, 03:43 PM
Who said that Ulquiorra was stronger then Urahara? :-_-

That's total bs, Aizen 2-shot the 3rd espada, Ulquiorra is the 4th so the same will happen with him.
And Aizen himself said that Urahara was his equal.

The only arrancar that has a chance to defeat a base Aizen is a released Wonderweiss, the same applies to Urahara aswell.

Crystal Black
March 11, 2011, 04:48 PM
Interesting match but this definitely go to Urahara. Even though I believe Isshin is ultimately more powerful then Kisuke is. That one GT won't get it done against Urahara. "It did pack enough punch to even warrant Aizen some credit towards it." Besides that, there is not enough feats to conclude Isshin can really put down Kisuke for good and vice versa. Isshin has great and I guess you could say vast amounts of reiastu and he showed a nice finger flicking spell against Aizen, but Urahara does have more kido skill, this we know of not that Isshin is lacking in that area, but Urahara is the only person in this manga to pull kido spell after spell off in quick succession without any visible effects. I would definitely vote for Isshin if he would had shown more to guarantee a victory, but this particular match-up would belong to Kisuke Urahara

Deicide
March 11, 2011, 07:39 PM
Isshin seems to be the one with the advantage in physical strength and Swordsmanship.

Urahara on the other hand seems to have the advantage in Kido, speed and intellect after what has been showed by the two of them.

I'm giving this to Urahara, he's smart enough to analyze and understand the battle situation.
If he encounters Isshin in close-combat, he'll understand that it's best to avoid close-combat against Isshin. Therefore, I can see him relying on Kido to do the job. Using a portable gigai should work to close the distance, he managed to do so against Aizen after all.

So yeah, Urahara for me.

freshseth83
March 11, 2011, 07:47 PM
now byakuya is on par with shinji and urahara ? and isshin is weaker than ukitake ... you know, i ont think there are more than 10-11 people that erase all prejudgements they have on characters then read topic discussion before voting

What are you talking about? I've already stated this plenty of times... :-_- maybe you don't read the general discussion thread for these fights. I've said before that I think Byakuya is as gifted as any of these Shinigami that I'm comparing him to. I DO think he's on Urahara and Shinji's level. He's the strongest head of the Kuchiki house. One of the most noble clans in soul society. They are known, well known for being powerful. Saying Byakuya is the strongest head of their lineage is a VERY big compliment. Back in SS it was said his reiatsu was even greater than Kenpachi's.

I don't think that there's any reason to believe that Urahara is above Isshin, or above Byakuya and is probably about on par with him in total skills. Shinji I think is around the same level. There's limits to Shinigami, some have higher limits, some have lower limits. It's never been implied in the manga that Urahara has been some type of powerhouse. I'm not trying to play his feats down, or his abilities, but I don't class him with senior captains that were captains for at least 100+ years before he was even considered for captaincy.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 09:53 PM
- To each their own. I honestly think Isshin and Urahara are above Shunsui and Ukitake.

- Anyway I think Urahara would actually have the advantage in close quarter combat and that he could possibly get his seal to work on Isshin. All Urahara would need is two openings.

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 09:55 PM
- Anyway I think Urahara would actually have the advantage in close quarter combat and that he could possibly get his seal to work on Isshin. All Urahara would need is two openings.

What has Urahara done that makes him have an advantage in CQC over Isshin?

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 09:59 PM
What has Urahara done that makes him have an advantage in CQC over Isshin?

Look at this post: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2340481&postcount=39

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 10:11 PM
Look at this post: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2340481&postcount=39

Uhh, no. Isshin swinging his sword is not at all like an ability such as Zabimaru separating to attack. Isshin taking a few swings and missing once has nothing to do with anything. Zabimaru would reconnect after the maximum number, nothing at all like Isshin missing a swing.

Also, what Urahara taught Ichigo is basic Shinigami knowledge, Renji was aware of the same thing. There's no reason to believe that Isshin is unaware of such things, especially when he has taught the readers things about Shinigami himself. He's clearly not lacking in basic information, so even if we assume it's true, Isshin knows of it anyway.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 10:16 PM
Uhh, no. Isshin swinging his sword is not at all like an ability such as Zabimaru separating to attack. Isshin taking a few swings and missing once has nothing to do with anything. Zabimaru would reconnect after the maximum number, nothing at all like Isshin missing a swing.

Also, what Urahara taught Ichigo is basic Shinigami knowledge, Renji was aware of the same thing. There's no reason to believe that Isshin is unaware of such things, especially when he has taught the readers things about Shinigami himself. He's clearly not lacking in basic information, so even if we assume it's true, Isshin knows of it anyway.

- Urahara said there's limit to consecutive slashes, he said nothing about zanpakotu abilities.

-Who said it's basic shinigami knowledge? Renji was aware of it after Ichigo did it. Also Ichigo made it very obvious what he was doing, when he said "It's over, Renji!"

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 10:32 PM
- Urahara said there's limit to consecutive slashes, he said nothing about zanpakotu abilities.

Yup, and it's not like we've only ever seen it demonstrated once in the entire manga or anything :oh. Isshin took two swings, Aizen DODGED it and attacked, obviously if you miss an attack you're open, it has nothing to do with the limit of his Zan.


-Who said it's basic shinigami knowledge? Renji was aware of it after Ichigo did it. Also Ichigo made it very obvious what he was doing, when he said "It's over, Renji!"

So, he said, "It's over, Renji", and that made Renji understand "Oh, I had no idea that striking in between the maximum combo of a Zan was a good idea. Good thing you yelled, because now I understand the concept!"


No, Renji himself said that it's a good idea to attack during the break of a Zan's consecutive strikes, but Ichigo was too slow to pull it off. Clearly it was not new information presented to him simply because Ichigo did it. It's clearly not an Urahara secret.

ninjabot
March 11, 2011, 10:42 PM
Yeah, that was always a horrible attempt at trying to make Ichigo look like he really learned something about fighting instead of just gaining power. The only limit to one's attacks is the limit they place on themselves (when it comes to plain old melee strikes. I mean, think about it).

When Gin was pushing Ichigo back, swinging his sword over and over in rapid succession, that little "wait it out" strategy would've been the death of him had Gin just decided to well... not stop swinging. That's common sense for anyone that's ever been in any kind of fight, ever.

"Hit the enemy when they stop trying to hit you!"

Yeah, that's some Sun Tzu art of war shit right there, lmao.

On topic: Isshin would shit on Urahara in an actual fight... but Urahara has hax on his side that saves him from the conventions of an actual duel. Why overpower the enemy when you can turn their power against them? Why outrun them when you can distract them with a substitution? Giving it to Urahara by way of... not really caring.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 10:44 PM
Yup, and it's not like we've only ever seen it demonstrated once in the entire manga or anything :oh. Isshin took two swings, Aizen DODGED it and attacked, obviously if you miss an attack you're open, it has nothing to do with the limit of his Zan.



So, he said, "It's over, Renji", and that's made Renji understand "Oh, I had no idea that striking in between the maximum combo of a Zan was a good idea. Good thing you yelled, because now I understand the concept!"


No, Renji himself said that it's a good idea to attack during the break of a Zan's consecutive strikes, but Ichigo was too slow to pull it off. Clearly it was not new information presented to him simply because Ichigo did it. It's clearly not an Urahara secret.

- Isshin was open because of the momentum from his swing.

- Ichigo yelling "it's over" after he dodged all 3 extensions of Zabimaru, made it obvious what Ichigo was aiming for.

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 10:52 PM
- Isshin was open because of the momentum from his swing.

Are you flip flopping on your "Zanpakuto attack limit" idea now?


- Ichigo yelling "it's over" after he dodged all 3 extensions of Zabimaru, made it obvious what Ichigo was aiming for.

Okay....My point is that Renji was already familiar with the concept, meaning Urahara did not give Ichigo secret information. It's clearly something Isshin, and probably any half decent Shinigami is fully aware of.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 10:59 PM
Are you flip flopping on your "Zanpakuto attack limit" idea now?



Okay....My point is that Renji was already familiar with the concept, meaning Urahara did not give Ichigo secret information. It's clearly something Isshin, and probably any half decent Shinigami is fully aware of.

- No... IMO the momentum of Isshin swing did play a role in the limit of Isshin attacks. IMO that's why Urahara said the more powerful it is the more limited it is.

- I disagree. I think it would be obvious to any shinigami that had Renji's zanpakatou and in that situation what Ichigo was doing.

- Real Kendoist do look for the opening in between consecutive attacks.

Takahashi
March 11, 2011, 11:17 PM
- No... IMO the momentum of Isshin swing did play a role in the limit of Isshin attacks. IMO that's why Urahara said the more powerful it is the more limited it is.

....................So now instead of just a set maximum number, now things like momentum affect the limit? Last time I checked, (which didn't take long, seeing as there's one example) that was never even mentioned.


- I disagree. I think it would be obvious to any shinigami that had Renji's zanpakatou and in that situation what Ichigo was doing.

So you think Renji only understood because his Zanpakuto was a good example of it? Despite the fact that you're saying EVERY Zan has a limit? Pretty funny how all of these non-detachable blades have owners that are just oblivious.

"Jeez, I would have won my fight, but after swinging six times, all of a sudden my arms just froze up and I was open!"

"I know right? The same thing happens to me at four, maybe I'm just out of shape"

"I wish I was like Gin, he can run in swinging like a machine gun, and nothing has ever happened to him!"


It's not only the ridiculous inconsistency with an affect that's only ever happened in a single fight. But it would also make no sense that not everyone would know of its existence if every Zan has some kind of limitations. If EVERY Zan has this limit, how in the hell could a powerful Shinigami like Isshin be unaware? I'd bet on Hanatarou even knowing this if it's applicable to everyone.

And like has been said, Gin. He's proof enough right there that Kubo abandoned the concept long ago.


- Real Kendoist do look for the opening in between consecutive attacks.

That has what to do with what exactly? You don't need to even be a Kendoist to understand that you take your opportunity when your opponent is open.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 11:41 PM
- Urahara said that there's always a limit to number of consecutive slashes. I reasoned that had something to do with momentum or the strength of the attack, after thinking about it a bit and looking at this vid mentioned in this post: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2340481&postcount=39

- I'm not even talking about zanpakatou abilities, I'm talking about consecutive strikes of sealed swords.

- Ichigo wasn't looking for the opening in Gin's attacks, he was just trying to make sure Gin didn't point his sword at him.

- I should of phrased that differently. There are real Kendoist that specifically look for the opening after a combo attack.

freshseth83
March 11, 2011, 11:48 PM
Or, you could parry an attack and do your own attack. This is bleach, guys tank slashes and stabs and still are able to go forward. One strike rarely kills anyone in the manga. It takes multiple strikes. What this has to do with anything here is beyond me. Consecutive slashes? If it pertains to one character it should to the other as well, right? I'm sure both sides will be able to guess when to attack, or when to dodge.

En Yang Ji
March 11, 2011, 11:59 PM
It's Urahara's strategy.

Tenacious Weezy
March 12, 2011, 12:11 AM
This is the most off-topic VS thread thus far, wow!

Anyways it seems like people are having a hard time accepting who would win and why. Isshin is arguably the best sealed combatant we've seen thus far and Urahara is the most prepared fighter in the series.

I'm going to go with Urahara. He was in the 2nd Div and sparred with Yoruichi in flashbacks. That's speed and hand to hand right there. His Kido is well known. His swordsmanship is obvious as with him sparring against Ichigo, it allowed the him to compete with the Ikkaku, Renji, Kenpachi, and Byakuya albeit with added power/speed enhancements along the way but the skill was there from Urahara. His Zan has been shown more versatile as well. Isshin is still an amazing fighter but without further demonstration of his abilities the only thing he's got going for him is his power which I don't see negating Urahara's skill in Kido. Can't wait for Shinji vs Kenpachi....

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 12:28 AM
- Urahara said that there's always a limit to number of consecutive slashes. I reasoned that had something to do with momentum or the strength of the attack, after thinking about it a bit and looking at this vid mentioned in this post: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2340481&postcount=39

- I'm not even talking about zanpakatou abilities, I'm talking about consecutive strikes of sealed swords.

- Ichigo wasn't looking for the opening in Gin's attacks, he was just trying to make sure Gin didn't point his sword at him.

- I should of phrased that differently. There are real Kendoist that specifically look for the opening after a combo attack.

Sigh*

Renji knew of the EXACT same thing Urahara taught Ichigo. It's blatantly obvious that Urahara did not INVENT the idea of attacking when your opponent uses their maximum number of attacks.

More than anything, there is ONE, a total of ONE time where this was actually used. Kubo has never since even mentioned it.

Even if we assume it still applies, you're taking one instance in where Isshin was open, and turning it into his maximum number of attacks, despite the fact that there is nothing to suggest this is true.

Even if I did believe it, it would be irrelevant, if Isshin has a limit, Urahara does too, and to say only Urahara knows of this idea is ridiculous.

Jackk
March 12, 2011, 12:29 AM
You guys are completely missing ki0's point...

The main point here is that Urahara is a more analytical fighter in combat.

First of all, Urahara was the one who taught Ichigo how to fight and in only 10 days.. Kisuke put Ichigo at a VC level where he could beat Ikkaku, who's a melee combat specialist. Kisuke taught Ichigo sword fighting tactics, to look for openings in his opponents, and even taught him how to fight with resolve and determination--which Ichigo used to beat Renji etc.

Kisuke Urahara is the guy who can even analyze the patterns in his opponent's muscle movements in order to dodge their attacks; he said that to Yami. And if the attack is an energy attack, he could even analyze the spirit particle composition of the attack and either cancel it out with his own energy attack or at least dodge it more easy. Kisuke has incredible reaction time and agility. And even Aizen stated that Urahara was more intelligent than him. Urahara is always planning, even during the middle of a fight, and always tries to plan for the worst possible outcome. To say that Kisuke only uses his intelligence and analytical skills in a lab would be a serious understatement. He actually uses his brain in combat very effectively, and not only is Kisuke also very powerful in his own right, but he is also very versatile.

Heck who's even going to expect to stab a fake body, then to get hit by chains of kido and that there's even a sealing kido hidden inside another kido blast? Or that if he touches you for a moment he can place a reiatsu seal on you that blasts you from the inside-out? That's crazy. And Isshin has no knowledge of what Urahara can do in this tournament.

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 12:41 AM
That wasn't Ki0's point. They said Urahara had an advantage over Isshin in CQC. I asked why, they said it was based on the fact that he taught Ichigo about the consecutive attack tactic, which obviously, is not something only he knows.

Ki0 never said anything about Urahara's analytical thought mid battle being the reason for an advantage in CQC.

Jackk
March 12, 2011, 12:44 AM
Ki0 never said anything about Urahara's analytical thought mid battle being the reason for an advantage in CQC.

I think he implied it.

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 12:47 AM
I think he implied it.

No, not at all. Every post they wrote was pertaining completely to the consecutive attack method, nothing more.

Anyway! I wouldn't buy it either way that Urahara actually has an advantage in CQC. Isshin doesn't have a lot of feats, but just outplaying Aizen with superior swordsmanship is more impressive than any CQC Urahara has pulled off.

Jackk
March 12, 2011, 12:52 AM
Anyway! I wouldn't buy it either way that Urahara actually has an advantage in CQC. Isshin doesn't have a lot of feats, but just outplaying Aizen with superior swordsmanship is more impressive than any CQC Urahara has pulled off.

Outplaying Aizen? Isshin was using Kendo on Aizen and he didn't even land a single hit on him with his sword. Isshin's kendo strikes didn't even seem that destructive to the surroundings. Kisuke's one handed strikes were quite frankly more visually impressive lol...

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 12:55 AM
Outplaying Aizen? Isshin was using Kendo on Aizen and he didn't even land a single hit on him with his sword. Isshin's kendo strikes didn't even seem that destructive to the surroundings. Kisuke's one handed strikes were quite frankly more visually impressive lol...

Jesus, can you budge at all when Urahara is involved? You can't even give credit to Isshin besting Aizen? Of does Urahara just stomp in every way?

El Samurai Guapo
March 12, 2011, 12:57 AM
No, not at all. Every post they wrote was pertaining completely to the consecutive attack method, nothing more.

Anyway! I wouldn't buy it either way that Urahara actually has an advantage in CQC. Isshin doesn't have a lot of feats, but just outplaying Aizen with superior swordsmanship is more impressive than any CQC Urahara has pulled off.

The point is that they lack comparable feats in the areas of speed, swordsmanship, reiatsu, and power. Intelligence is the only area where we know Kisuke is superior. For this reason I basically just compare their arsenals.

Kisuke: Nake Benihime, Chikasumi no Tate, Shibari Benihime, Juzu Tsunagi, inventions, kidou.

Isshin: Getsuga Tenshou.

In other words, assuming their skills are comparable, Kisuke just has a whole lot more going for him. Even just speaking shikai vs. shikai; I'd easily give the advantage to Kisuke.

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 12:59 AM
I'd say it's pretty obvious that Isshin has better Reiatsu or Durability. He was the first to get back up, used his Reiatsu to assist Ichigo for a pretty damn long time.

El Samurai Guapo
March 12, 2011, 12:59 AM
Jesus, can you budge at all when Urahara is involved? You can't even give credit to Isshin besting Aizen? Of does Urahara just stomp in every way?

Urahara stomps in every way unless his opponent is Hirako.

El Samurai Guapo
March 12, 2011, 01:00 AM
I'd say it's pretty obvious that Isshin has better Reiatsu or Durability. He was the first to get back up, used his Reiatsu to assist Ichigo for a pretty damn long time.

First to get back up means little unless you know that they all got taken out the exact same way. It was off-panel so yeah...

Secondly, like I said, they lack comparable feats. You know that Kisuke could not hold the dangai open the way Isshin did because...?

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 01:03 AM
First to get back up means little unless you know that they all got taken out the exact same way. It was off-panel so yeah...

Secondly, like I said, they lack comparable feats. You know that Kisuke could not hold the dangai open the way Isshin did because...?

Feats are all you care about, yet Shunko, an incomparable attack, crushes Byakuya?

Urahara and Isshin both don't have many feats, but Isshin has shown us more in the way of durability, and likely Reiatsu, as well as power (GT for example)

En Yang Ji
March 12, 2011, 01:03 AM
Sigh*

Renji knew of the EXACT same thing Urahara taught Ichigo. It's blatantly obvious that Urahara did not INVENT the idea of attacking when your opponent uses their maximum number of attacks.

More than anything, there is ONE, a total of ONE time where this was actually used. Kubo has never since even mentioned it.

Even if we assume it still applies, you're taking one instance in where Isshin was open, and turning it into his maximum number of attacks, despite the fact that there is nothing to suggest this is true.

Even if I did believe it, it would be irrelevant, if Isshin has a limit, Urahara does too, and to say only Urahara knows of this idea is ridiculous.

- Renji noticed that after Ichigo dodged all of attacks, when his weapon retracted, and Ichigo saying its over renji. It doesn't prove he knew about it beforehand.

- taking in consideration Isshin stance and posture that likely was the maximum of number attacks he could of done, at that time.

- Even if we assume that Isshin knows about it, its not like every kendoist make it their strategy to specifically look for openings in consecutive attacks. Different kendoist use different strategies. There's many other strategies out there.

freshseth83
March 12, 2011, 01:07 AM
Guapo-First to get back up means little unless you know that they all got taken out the exact same way. It was off-panel so yeah...

How are you going to say that? They did all get taken out the same way! It was all just a big blast of energy and they all fell. Isshin was the first to get back up. Be it plot or whatever, he got up and had reiatsu to open a gate and then use it to hold Ichigo in the precipice world for 3 months.

Urahara shoots things from his sword and cancels out bala's but he's better? Oh, that's right, he hit Aizen too! And used cuffs! The GT that Isshin hit Aizen with did more damage than Urahara and Yoruichi's attacks combined. That's called a one-hitter-quitter where I'm from. The only attack that could be comparable from Urahara was the cuffs he used.

I already made my statements. I'm not going to go into detail again about it. Isshin wins in my view. At least I can give credit to other characters, here it seems some people don't give credit where it's due, unless it's against someone they don't like.

El Samurai Guapo
March 12, 2011, 01:14 AM
Feats are all you care about, yet Shunko, an incomparable attack, crushes Byakuya?

Urahara and Isshin both don't have many feats, but Isshin has shown us more in the way of durability, and likely Reiatsu, as well as power (GT for example)

You're missing my point. The main arguements I hear for Isshin here are that he's a better swordsman, has better durability, superior reiatsu, or superior strength. In other words, all stat based arguments that can't be proven. There is FAR from enough evidence to declare Isshin (or Kisuke) as dominating in those categories. Best thing to do is just say: "Their base stats are roughly equal. Now, how will a fight between the two play out?"

If you ask me it plays out in Kisuke's favor; he has to avoid getting hit by that GT at all costs, but he has numerous ways to avoid that (such as the portable gigai, or his bloodmist shields). His nake benihime attack (AKA red GT) doesn't seem as powerful as Isshin's GT, but it seems much more spammable and versatile. The shibari behihime/hi asobi/juzu tsunagi combo is probably just as deadly as Isshin's GT, and easier to pull off IMO because that net should be harder to dodge than GT.

Tenacious Weezy
March 12, 2011, 01:17 AM
Urahara shoots things from his sword and cancels out bala's but he's better? Oh, that's right, he hit Aizen too! And used cuffs! The GT that Isshin hit Aizen with did more damage than Urahara and Yoruichi's attacks combined. That's called a one-hitter-quitter where I'm from. The only attack that could be comparable from Urahara was the cuffs he used.


To be honest all of their attacks were one-hitter quitters on almost any opponent in Bleach. Just because Aizen acknowledged Isshin probably only means he had the strongest attack but in the same way a GT would likely kill Urahara, I'm sure his cuffs would do the same to Isshin, maybe even his net explosion as well (which was a more dangerous attack because it traps). Point is their both not going to tank each other. Isshins feats of beating Aizen with no illusions is not outside the realm of All senior captains, Yoruichi or Urahara IMO.

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 01:22 AM
Urahara's blood mist shield barely stopped Ichigo's rookie GT long enough to move out of the way, how's it going to stop Isshin's?

I'm not saying Isshin is dominating Urahara in those areas mentioned. I do however think he's got enough of an advantage to make it worth noting.

Jackk
March 12, 2011, 01:24 AM
Jesus, can you budge at all when Urahara is involved? You can't even give credit to Isshin besting Aizen? Of does Urahara just stomp in every way?

I was half-joking there. I thought it was obvious lol...

My point was that Isshin really didn't do a whole lot to sealed Aizen. Isshin used Kendo and still didn't really land a hit on him. Aizen was dodging. Now, since Isshin didn't actually deal damage to Aizen, then the thing to compare would be the destruction he caused to the ground with his strikes. And if we compare LOLcollateral damage, Kisuke's one handed strikes have actually dealt more destruction to the ground and the surroundings. Yes, it's true!

Here, let's compare for the lulz:

Isshin's two handed strikes on the ground-

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/3.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/4.html

Kisuke's one handed strikes-

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-97-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-97-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-97-page-12.html

That being said... if you really must know, I feel pretty much exactly the same way as El Samurai Guapo regarding Isshin's and Kisuke CQC. I think that they're actually rougly equal in that regard. Isshin may have some edge, but even if that's the case... I think that Kisuke would make up for it with his superior analytical skills in combat. In the end though, what mostly gives Kisuke the win here is his superior intellect and versatility. Kisuke simply has more abilities than Isshin right now.

freshseth83
March 12, 2011, 01:26 AM
To be honest all of their attacks were one-hitter quitters on almost any opponent in Bleach. Just because Aizen acknowledged Isshin probably only means he had the strongest attack but in the same way a GT would likely kill Urahara, I'm sure his cuffs would do the same to Isshin, maybe even his net explosion as well (which was a more dangerous attack because it traps). Point is their both not going to tank each other. Isshins feats of beating Aizen with no illusions is not outside the realm of All senior captains, Yoruichi or Urahara IMO.

YOU THINK a net attack is as strong as a GT from Isshin. The manga disagrees with it, as does Aizen. He acknowledged Isshin's attack, and acknowledged Urahara's CUFFS, not his Shikai 'net'. You're saying the same thing I just said but trying to argue with me about it? I think you got it mixed up there a bit. Only Isshin's GT was a one-hitter-quiter. Only Isshin's GT was commented on by Aizen. Urahra's cuffs weren't by his own strength, it was an invention.

I didn't say anything about Urahara not having the cuffs work on Aizen. I said moves that he used from his sword weren't anything compared to what Isshin did with that GT. I already think the cuffs are pretty useless unless you believe Isshin is as cocky and arrogant as Chrysalis Aizen.

En Yang Ji
March 12, 2011, 01:34 AM
Weezy never said GT and the net were equal in strength, he said Isshin might not be able to tank it.

Urahara cuffs aren't an invention.

Takahashi
March 12, 2011, 01:41 AM
Careful, Takahashi will bite your head off for arguing "aesthetics."

These discussions have become nothing but a chore with you guys. I'm done with these, nice attempt at baiting me though.

Isshin wins because he's more durable, powerful, and has outdone Aizen himself. Urahara's intelligence is much more effective when he has time to prepare, and formulating and executing a plan on the fly will be too difficult with the kind of pressure Isshin can, and will put on him in CQC.

Good luck freshseth.

Jackk
March 12, 2011, 01:55 AM
Baiting? Come now, you know I'm only joking...but it is true though, you don't like arguments based on aesthetics. Pretty sure I have first-hand knowledge about that little detail lol.

Yes, I remember that thread! You can use me as a witness! :toc

On a more serious note, Takahashi, nobody is baiting you here. I even said I was joking in that other post. I still hold that Kisuke's superior intellect, analytical skills, versatility, and his larger pool of techniques and abilities is what will give him the win here though.

freshseth83
March 12, 2011, 01:55 AM
How are you going to compare strikes with energy blasts? There was no energy blast used in the shots Jacck showed by Isshin. But clearly there was energy blasts involved with Urahara's attacks.

here's what the only 'energy blast' from Isshin did- http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v46/c405/19.html and this http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v46/c406/1.html and that http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v46/c406/2.html

Nothing Urahara has shown even from his attacks with Benihime have been of that magnitude. If were to compare techniques, the thing Urahara has going for him is Kido. As far as strength from Zanpakuto, Isshin trumps Benihime.

Tenacious Weezy
March 12, 2011, 02:19 AM
YOU THINK a net attack is as strong as a GT from Isshin. The manga disagrees with it, as does Aizen. He acknowledged Isshin's attack, and acknowledged Urahara's CUFFS, not his Shikai 'net'. You're saying the same thing I just said but trying to argue with me about it? I think you got it mixed up there a bit. Only Isshin's GT was a one-hitter-quiter. Only Isshin's GT was commented on by Aizen. Urahra's cuffs weren't by his own strength, it was an invention.

I didn't say anything about Urahara not having the cuffs work on Aizen. I said moves that he used from his sword weren't anything compared to what Isshin did with that GT. I already think the cuffs are pretty useless unless you believe Isshin is as cocky and arrogant as Chrysalis Aizen.

Yeah I wasn't comparing them but you seem to be and not against each other but against Aizen. Aizen at that point was indestructible :-_- it's a bad idea to say, "Well this damaged him more than the other", because in the end they were both ineffective. Just because Aizen tanked Uraharas Shikai attack that means its not going to one-hit Isshin but you're saying "Aizen tanked Ishhins GT and Aizen acknowledged it", means that Isshin could one-hit Urahara:oh. Imagine if the GT was a nuke and Uraharas Shikai attack was an atom bomb. They both are going to kill and destroy but one is just more destructive, unfortunately against Aizen there's no way to understand this especially with comment like "I understand your power" making it the difference. Even Yoruichi's attacks were devastatingly powerful (including Shunko),do you think Isshin could tank that?

Like someone else said the cuffs weren't an invention but I also doubt the practical use of them in this fight.

freshseth83
March 12, 2011, 03:29 AM
HUH? lol- man, read the manga for yourself here- http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c403/8.html "the technique that you probably created to fight me..." it was created, and invention. You even see him take the cuffs off of his wrists in the previous page.

I come back with facts and a better argument, you come at me with the same thing I just said then try to twist it around and make it seem like I meant something different.

Tenacious Weezy-"Well this damaged him more than the other", because in the end they were both ineffective. Just because Aizen tanked Uraharas Shikai attack that means its not going to one-hit Isshin but you're saying "Aizen tanked Ishhins GT and Aizen acknowledged it", means that Isshin could one-hit Urahara

^I didn't say ANY of that. When you reply to me, reply with what I said, and try to use my words against me. But you can't reply and put other words in there, taking my statement out of context. Your argument isn't worth replying to if you're not even replying to mine.

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 06:02 AM
Why discredit either of their feats on Hogyoku Aizen? You may as well say Isshin won't ever land a Getsuga as powerful as the one he used on Aizen on Kisuke because Kisuke and Yoruichi created the opening (http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-17/bleach/chapter-405.html) required for him to use said technique. All the while forgetting that a simple attack from Urahara pierced straight through (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50820-17/bleach/chapter-401.html) Aizen with ease.

Or how about Kisuke having shown better speed than Isshin in managing this particular feat? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-8/bleach/chapter-402.html) Against an opponent who knew of it, yet still couldn't follow (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/bleach/chapter-235.html) it What about that makes it better? Well, let Aizen explain that (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html)

Or how about Aizen admitting that he and Kisuke were once equals in power (http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html), while he was empowered by the Hogyoku, meaning Urahara was his equal in his Base form?

Based on showings, Kisuke has Kido (Very deadly kido), Intelligence, Versatility and Speed advantage

Isshin has a durability/endurance and power advantage...

I'm not giving either of them a reiatsu advantage, there's nothing suggesting either of them have it.

Kisuke takes the win here

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 06:19 AM
Sigh, I was expecting to see detailed posts which compare Isshin and Urahara's strengths and weaknesses but all I see is baiting and people who think this is amusing. Nobody is laughing at these jokes and proper forum etiquette is to use emoticons when you make jokes, of course if they were indeed jokes. Judging by Takahashi's posts in this and other thread, he must have been upset with the quality of replies against his arguments and I can understand why.

I said (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2340944#post2340944) "I'll wait for Jackk's post to see what he has in store, even though I mostly disagree with him, he makes a better attempt to explain why he thinks what he thinks", how wrong I was! He says "Urahara is better than Isshin in every way imaginable" which must include reiatsu, durability, swordsmanship, etc. So what if Isshin fought Aizen by himself, Urahara can replicate the same feat even if we have never seen him in a sword fight. So what if Isshin was the first one to get up after Aizen's attack (even though he had fought Aizen for a while by himself), "Since Isshin got up earlier than Urahara, Urahara must have been hit much harder."

I see how people's thought process works, twist everything that happened off-panel in such a way that it would support your argument, disregarding every bit of common sense. This is not surprising, this is the exact same thing people did when they said "Kensei beat up WW (and then perhaps left FKT to go watch Oscar Winner The King's Speech)." Why are people so desperate to deny the obvious? Because their whole argument relies on fragile speculations and if they let these go, the foundations of their faulty logic collapse.

Anyway, I guess we'll mostly hear "Urahara is intelligent, he'll figure something out" as an argument, which raises the question why Aizen, with his superintelligence, couldn't overpower Isshin. It's because such intelligence mostly manifests itself as preparations/inventions before the battle. Isshin isn't a moron like Yammy who can be taken advantage of, even Aizen (when he was still sane) couldn't do that to Isshin.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 07:04 AM
This would be a close fight.

Isshin would most likely overpower Urahara in CQC.

Urahara on the other hand is more intelligent, better kido.

Their speed is rougly equal and I wouldn't say that either one of them has a reiatsu advantage.

A GT would kill Urahara
Hado #91 and Hiasobi, Benihime, Juzutsunagi would kill Isshin.

Urahara's reiatsu cuffs and gigai could also turn the tide of this battle, but Isshin wont be off-guard like Aizen was.

I'd say that this could go either way with Urahara having the edge.

Waking_Dreamer
March 12, 2011, 07:07 AM
Have people mentioned Isshin's "finger flick"....?

Is that a kido or Hakuda technique...?

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 07:11 AM
Have people mentioned Isshin's "finger flick"....?

Is that a kido or Hakuda technique...?

I always though that it was hakuda.

But it's most likely hado #1
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100715111319/bleach/en/images/e/e4/Shou.gif

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 07:50 AM
Their speed is rougly equal and I wouldn't say that either one of them has a reiatsu advantage.

I think Isshin is faster, we have seen him keep up with Aizen for a sufficiently long time and we know how fast Aizen is. On the other hand, Urahara's only speed reaction feat is to react to Aizen's attack (which he was prepared for and totally expecting) once. It's like saying "Hisagi was as fast hollow Tōsen because he dodged an attack from Tōsen."

Urahara didn't show meaningful speed feats because he has never engaged in sword combat. Even Byakuya may be faster than Urahara because Byakuya can use Utsusemi but Urahara apparently can't. We have reason to think Isshin is faster than Urahara.


A GT would kill Urahara
Hado #91 and Hiasobi, Benihime, Juzutsunagi would kill Isshin.

I don't think Juzutsunagi would kill Isshin, Isshin seemed to be physically stronger than Aizen who didn't get killed by Hadō 96 which I doubt to be (much?) weaker than Juzutsunagi. And IMO Urahara can't cast Hadō 91 without incantation which makes it much harder to use it in combat.

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 07:55 AM
I think Isshin is faster, we have seen him keep up with Aizen for a sufficiently long time and we know how fast Aizen is. On the other hand, Urahara's only speed reaction feat is to react to Aizen's attack (which he was prepared for and totally expecting) once. It's like saying "Hisagi was as fast hollow Tōsen because he dodged an attack from Tōsen."

If you're gonna make this claim, by that same logic Isshin's speed feat of keeping up with a slower Aizen due to the fact that Aizen was nearing his limit as a Shinigami due to the Hogyoku reconstructing his soul, and he was more focused on that than fighting Isshin, isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be

Let's not get into discrediting what feats we have to favor one character.

There's no proof Urahara was "totally expecting" Aizen to attack him at the moment he did, and of course even if he had, he'd still have had to time the Gigai switch perfectly so that Aizen wouldn't notice that he did it before attacking him

Either way you cut it, Urahara's speed feat is greater

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 08:07 AM
I don't think Juzutsunagi would kill Isshin, Isshin seemed to be physically stronger than Aizen who didn't get killed by Hadō 96 which I doubt to be (much?) weaker than Juzutsunagi. And IMO Urahara can't cast Hadō 91 without incantation which makes it much harder to use it in combat.

Why wouldn't it kill Isshin?

It did quite alot damage on a much stronger opponent, hado 96 was used without an incantation by a severely weakened Yamamoto on a healthy Aizen and physically stronger doesn't always mean more durable.

We don't know if he could do it without incantation or not, he can still bind Isshin and then do hado 91, a fully powered Hado 91 made Aizen evolve, but anyway it is much stronger then a weak black box that took out Komamura so it would do alot damage on Isshin or even kill him.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 08:07 AM
If you're gonna make this claim, by that same logic Isshin's speed feat of keeping up with a slower Aizen due to the fact that Aizen was nearing his limit as a Shinigami due to the Hogyoku reconstructing his soul, and he was more focused on that than fighting Isshin, isn't as impressive as you're making it out to be

Aizen wasn't slow during the entire fight, he got slower when he was at his shinigami limits and only then hōgyoku started to transform Aizen's soul, not before. And do you suggest that Aizen was very slow when he attacked Urahara because he had hit his shinigami limits ten seconds ago? Interesting point.


Let's not get into discrediting what feats we have to favor one character.

There's no proof Urahara was "totally expecting" Aizen to attack him at the moment he did, and of course even if he had, he'd still have had to time the Gigai switch perfectly so that Aizen wouldn't notice that he did it before attacking him

Either way you cut it, Urahara's speed feat is greater

Urahara didn't know the exact moment Aizen would attack him but he had prepared himself to use the gigai trick in the most likely case that Aizen would attack him. Of course, Urahara has to have good reaction speed to make the switch on time when Aizen starts his attack but keeping up with Aizen for a long time is logically a much better feat than one time dodging of an attack you're expecting.

And I further strengthened my argument by saying Urahara can't use Utsusemi which requires speed. This is why he uses a gigai trick for the same effect.

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 08:15 AM
Aizen wasn't slow during the entire fight, he got slower when he was at his shinigami limits and only then hōgyoku started to transform Aizen's soul, not before. And do you suggest that Aizen was very slow when he attacked Urahara because he had hit his shinigami limits ten seconds ago? Interesting point.

Actually no, I didn't suggest Aizen was slower when he attacked Urahara because at that point his transformation was already underway, and he'd even admitted he was stronger
(http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html)

He was only slower when he fought Isshin, which Isshin himself (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html) pointed out

So yes, Urahara dealt with a stronger, faster Aizen than Isshin did, for comparison.

Aside from that, what speed feat did Isshin have before he admitted Aizen got slower?


Urahara didn't know the exact moment Aizen would attack him but he had prepared himself to use the gigai trick in the most likely case that Aizen would attack him. Of course, Urahara has to have good reaction speed to make the switch on time when Aizen starts his attack but keeping up with Aizen for a long time is logically a much better feat than one time dodging of an attack you're expecting.

Now factor in that he's dealing with a faster, stronger Aizen. Then factor in he was able to get behind Aizen without him noticing and you have Urahara performing a very credible speed feat against him.

Isshin's "feat" was not more impressive on those grounds


And I further strengthened my argument by saying Urahara can't use Utsusemi which requires speed. This is why he uses a gigai trick for the same effect.

Neither can Isshin. Whats your point? Doesn't strengthen your argument at all

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 08:25 AM
Why wouldn't it kill Isshin?

It did quite alot damage on a much stronger opponent, hado 96 was used without an incantation by a severely weakened Yamamoto on a healthy Aizen and physically stronger doesn't always mean more durable.

It's quite hard to estimate the amount of damage though, Aizen didn't seem impressed (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-405/17/) at all. We can't say that every attack that does damage to cocoon Aizen kills everybody else.


We don't know if he could do it without incantation or not, he can still bind Isshin and then do hado 91, a fully powered Hado 91 made Aizen evolve, but anyway it is much stronger then a weak black box that took out Komamura so it would do alot damage on Isshin or even kill him.

If he can bind Isshin, he can cut Isshin's head off, Hadō 91 is irrelevant in this case.
[hr]

Actually no, I didn't suggest Aizen was slower when he attacked Urahara because at that point his transformation was already underway, and he'd even admitted he was stronger
(http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html)

This is after Urahara's hadō, not right after Aizen outright stated that he got slower.


He was only slower when he fought Isshin, which Isshin himself (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html) pointed out

So yes, Urahara dealt with a stronger, faster Aizen than Isshin did, for comparison.

If you need further explanation for the fact that "Aizen only got slower when he was at his limit, NOT BEFORE", perhaps we shouldn't be having a discussion at all. Even Isshin says "You're getting slower" and you still say "Aizen had been slow during the entire fight." You're wrong.


Aside from that, what speed feat did Isshin have before he admitted Aizen got slower?

My point still stands, Isshin kept up with Aizen.


Neither can Isshin. Whats your point? Doesn't strengthen your argument at all

Urahara is Yoruichi's close friend, he could have learned Utsusemi if he was fast enough to perform it but he uses portable gigais instead. Urahara was standing on the top a building when Aizen attacked him, the building could be used as a cover for Urahara to sneak up on Aizen.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 08:26 AM
It's quite hard to estimate the amount of damage though, Aizen didn't seem impressed (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-405/17/) at all. We can't say that every attack that does damage to cocoon Aizen kills everybody else.
Aizen's arrogance skyrocketed after he fused with the Hogyoku, he didn't even try to avoid incoming attacks and even when 3 captains that were roughly the same strength were attacking him, it didn't do that much damage.
Any other being except Yamamoto would've died.
Because Urahara = Aizen, Isshin was overpowering Aizen so Isshin = Aizen, Yoruichi was doing the same amount of damage that the other 2 were doing so I consider her to be close to Aizen.

So this was basically 3 Aizen's vs Hogyoku Aizen and even with their strongest attacks (shikai and shunko) it wouldn't do that much damage so it isn't because their attacks were weak, Condom Aizen was just that strong.




If he can bind Isshin, he can cut Isshin's head off, Hadō 91 is irrelevant in this case.

Sadly, not a single character ever did that even when they had the chance.

Anyway it wouldn't bind Isshin that long probably so it's safer to do hado 91.

Cooper
March 12, 2011, 08:32 AM
Urahara might be a great smartass, but Isshin's "finger flick" technique left a huge impression on me. It's really a tough choice, but I'll go with daddy.

lol @ shikai Benihime smoking Ulqi or Aizen expecting Wondy to beat Yama-sama :fail I mean, seriously?

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 08:40 AM
This is after Urahara's hadō, not right after Aizen outright stated that he got slower.

Oh really? Interesting, because Aizen said he didn't have to dodge Kido anymore because he was stronger. Meaning he felt the power of the Hogyoku then hence why he didn't dodge. He was stronger and faster when Urahara dealt with him, as I said

Although it is funny you say this, and then what you're arguing below




If you need further explanation for the fact that "Aizen only got slower when he was at his limit, NOT BEFORE", perhaps we shouldn't be having a discussion at all. Even Isshin says "You're getting slower" and you still say "Aizen had been slow during the entire fight." You're wrong.

My point still stands, Isshin kept up with Aizen.

It doesn't, because you still haven't addressed the point I made about Aizen waiting for the Hogyoku to transform him

Aside from that, all Isshin did was miss (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50186-4/bleach/chapter-399.html) just about all his attacks, and cross swords (http://www.mangareader.net/94-49861-16/bleach/chapter-398.html) with him. Shunsui (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-17/bleach/chapter-389.html) and Hitsugaya (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-4/bleach/chapter-389.html) did the same, are they Aizen speed now?

Your "argument" doesn't have legs to stand on


Urahara is Yoruichi's close friend, he could have learned Utsusemi if he was fast enough to perform it but he uses portable gigais instead. Urahara was standing on the top a building when Aizen attacked him, the building could be used as a cover for Urahara to sneak up on Aizen.

Completely false and baseless. You're implying there's a speed minimum to be capable of performing Utsusemi, when nothing of the sort has been implied. Its a Shihoin technique, the only reason Byakuya knows it is because Yoruichi taught it to him. Soi Fon hasn't used it canonically either, is Byakuya faster than her now?

Either way, it doesn't do anything for your argument seeing as Isshin doesn't know it either.

As for the bolded, yeah..thats absurd. Not much more to say on that one


lol @ shikai Benihime smoking Ulqi or Aizen expecting Wondy to beat Yama-sama :fail I mean, seriously?

I don't get why you posted these, why wouldn't shikai Benihime smoke Ulq?

And the bolded, thats pretty much exactly what happened ;)

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 08:42 AM
Any other being except Yamamoto would've died.
Because Urahara = Aizen, Isshin was overpowering Aizen so Isshin = Aizen, Yoruichi was doing the same amount of damage that the other 2 were doing so I consider her to be close to Aizen.

Have we ever seen other captains try to attack this arrogant reckless Aizen and fail to do any damage at all? Why do we assume they wouldn't make a scratch on Aizen, is it fair to use this assumption to argue Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin are much stronger than other captains? And how can you use "Urahara = Aizen" as a premise to argue "Isshin = Urahara"? Your premises and assumptions need to be validated.


So this was basically 3 Aizen's vs Hogyoku Aizen and even with their strongest attacks (shikai and shunko) it wouldn't do that much damage so it isn't because their attacks were weak, Condom Aizen was just that strong.

Condom Aizen was strong in the sense that the attack of all captains (perhaps except Yamamoto) would prove useless. Yoruichi's attacks proved useless, Shinji's attacks would prove useless, Shunsui's attacks would prove useless, all of them could do visible damage but Aizen would simply regenerate.


Sadly, not a single character ever did that even when they had the chance.

Anyway it wouldn't bind Isshin that long probably so it's safer to do hado 91.

IMO cutting a head off is much faster than reciting an incantation. But yes, characters sometimes fail to take advantage of an opponent who is tied up.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 08:54 AM
Have we ever seen other captains try to attack this arrogant reckless Aizen and fail to do any damage at all? Why do we assume they wouldn't make a scratch on Aizen, is it fair to use this assumption to argue Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin are much stronger than other captains? And how can you use "Urahara = Aizen" as a premise to argue "Isshin = Urahara"? Your premises and assumptions need to be validated.
Isshin was overpowering Aizen.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html

Aizen said that Urahara used to be his equal.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html

Yoruichi did rougly the same damage to Condom Aizen as the above two.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-51581-18/bleach/chapter-403.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-12/bleach/chapter-405.html

And it doesn't need to be precisely be equals in all stats, that's why I also used 'roughly".


Condom Aizen was strong in the sense that the attack of all captains (perhaps except Yamamoto) would prove useless. Yoruichi's attacks proved useless, Shinji's attacks would prove useless, Shunsui's attacks would prove useless, all of them could do visible damage but Aizen would simply regenerate.
That isn't my point at all, if someone did the same amount of damage as two people that are on the level of a pre-fusion Aizen then the person in question is also around that level.
And those 3 "Aizen's" were no match for a Hogyoku Aizen, a testament to Hogyoku Aizen's strength.




IMO cutting a head off is much faster than reciting an incantation. But yes, characters sometimes fail to take advantage of an opponent who is tied up.
I agree that it would be more faster.

But what if the opponent suddenly breaks out of the kido while you were gonna cut his head off, that's very risky so a hado from a distance is much better for this situation.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 09:18 AM
Oh really? Interesting, because Aizen said he didn't have to dodge Kido anymore because he was stronger.

Actually Aizen said that after he realized that hadō 91 wouldn't hurt him. He said "I won't let you use this hadō" as if it could actually hurt him:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-402/12/


It doesn't, because you still haven't addressed the point I made about Aizen waiting for the Hogyoku to transform him

This is your speculation. Was Aizen also waiting for hōgyoku to transform him while he was fighting everybody else, or did he specifically decide to go easy on Isshin? Isshin pushed Aizen to his limits, this is why hōgyoku transformed him, how can Aizen hit his limit if he doesn't exert himself? You disregard Isshin's feat without having manga evidence to support your case.


Aside from that, all Isshin did was miss (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50186-4/bleach/chapter-399.html) just about all his attacks, and cross swords (http://www.mangareader.net/94-49861-16/bleach/chapter-398.html) with him. Shunsui (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-17/bleach/chapter-389.html) and Hitsugaya (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-4/bleach/chapter-389.html) did the same, are they Aizen speed now?

Yep, IMO Shunsui can definitely keep up with Aizen, KS would be a bit problematic though.


Completely false and baseless. You're implying there's a speed minimum to be capable of performing Utsusemi, when nothing of the sort has been implied. Its a Shihoin technique, the only reason Byakuya knows it is because Yoruichi taught it to him. Soi Fon hasn't used it canonically either, is Byakuya faster than her now?

Utsusemi is movement at great speed to leave a tangible after-image behind, of course you have to be fast enough to do that. Before saying something is "completely false and baseless", do your homework. ;)

Urahara is Yoruichi's close friend, he has been with her for the past 100 years and he uses portable gigai trick instead of Utsusemi which suggests he isn't capable of doing that.

Byakuya was the future leader of another noble clan and it seems Yoruichi had good relations with Kuchiki clan (as seen in TBTP arc), she was teasing Byakuya (and his speed), this may be the reason why Byakuya knows the technique.


Either way, it doesn't do anything for your argument seeing as Isshin doesn't know it either.

Because Yoruichi most likely didn't teach him.


As for the bolded, yeah..thats absurd. Not much more to say on that one

Using a building as a cover is absurd? :blink

Yeah, "absurd" is a good argument that explains why I'm wrong. :D
[hr]

Isshin was overpowering Aizen.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html

Aizen said that Urahara used to be his equal.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html

See this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2340335#post2340335). Everybody doesn't agree with "Urahara=Aizen" assumption.


Yoruichi did rougly the same damage to Condom Aizen as the above two.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-51581-18/bleach/chapter-403.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-12/bleach/chapter-405.html

Do you say other captains would fail to touch an arrogant reckless Aizen who wasn't using KS? If they're perfectly capable of touching Aizen, why do you say Yoruichi did damage? How do you know, for example, Shinji with mask couldn't do more damage?


I agree that it would be more faster.

But what if the opponent suddenly breaks out of the kido while you were gonna cut his head off, that's very risky so a hado from a distance is much better for this situation.

But using an incantation gives more time for escape, I would personally cut off the head but this is just me. ;)

Cooper
March 12, 2011, 09:19 AM
I don't get why you posted these, why wouldn't shikai Benihime smoke Ulq?

And the bolded, thats pretty much exactly what happened ;)

Are we reading the same manga? :blink It's pretty much the opposite. Shikai Benihime wouldn't smoke Ulqi because it already didn't in conquistadores chapter. I mean word "smokes" makes it sound like Ulqi would be one-shoted or something. And that's just ridiculous.
As for the bolded part, how's using Wondy specifically to seal Yama-sama's flames results in expecting Wondy to beat him?

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 09:27 AM
Actually Aizen said that after he realized that hadō 91 wouldn't hurt him. He said "I won't let you use this hadō" as if it could actually hurt him:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-402/12/

Doesn't refute my point at all. Try a different route



This is your speculation. Was Aizen also waiting for hōgyoku to transform him while he was fighting everybody else, or did he specifically decide to go easy on Isshin? Isshin pushed Aizen to his limits, this is why hōgyoku transformed him, how can Aizen hit his limit if he doesn't exert himself? You disregard Isshin's feat without having manga evidence to support your case.

The bolded is false, you misunderstood the entire point of Aizen saying he was at his limits. It had nothing to do with Isshin, it was because he was being transformed by the Hogyoku into something that transcends Shinigami

Since you base your case off of that misinformation, then the rest falls as well


Yep, IMO Shunsui can definitely keep up with Aizen, KS would be a bit problematic though.


I also added Hitsugaya, who did the same (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-7/bleach/chapter-390.html) thing. Is he Aizen-speed now too?


Utsusemi is movement at great speed to leave a tangible after-image behind, of course you have to be fast enough to do that. Before saying something is "completely false and baseless", do your homework. ;)

Show the scan of where Utsusemi was explained. Otherwise your "homework" comment is gonna make you look bad =/


Urahara is Yoruichi's close friend, he has been with her for the past 100 years and he uses portable gigai trick instead of Utsusemi which suggests he isn't capable of doing that.

Or maybe it's preference? Don't assume too much


Byakuya was the future leader of another noble clan and it seems Yoruichi had good relations with Kuchiki clan (as seen in TBTP arc), she was teasing Byakuya (and his speed), this may be the reason why Byakuya knows the technique.

I already said he knows it because she taught it to him


Because Yoruichi most likely didn't teach him.

So why even mention Utsusemi as if it somehow makes Urahara slower than Isshin, when Isshin doesn't know it himself?

Moot point


Using a building as a cover is absurd? :blink

Yeah, "absurd" is a good argument that explains why I'm wrong. :D

Wans't worth arguing to be honest

Urahara clearly switched his gigai before Aizen could react and had his hand on his back prepared to use Kido. He didn't just disappear, he has to be fast enough to escape without Aizen seeing him do so and also at a precise moment where Aizen won't notice he's attacking an inanimate Gigai. He doesn't have time to take cover and hide like you suggested

Isshin hasn't performed a speed feat rivaling it

------------------------------------

Are we reading the same manga? :blink It's pretty much the opposite. Shikai Benihime wouldn't smoke Ulqi because it already didn't in conquistadores chapter. I mean word "smokes" makes it sound like Ulqi would be one-shoted or something. And that's just ridiculous.
As for the bolded part, how's using Wondy specifically to seal Yama-sama's flames results in expecting Wondy to beat him?

You mean when Urahara used his shikai to fire an attack equivalent to Yammy's cero that Ulquiorra slapped away? That's not impressive at all, and given Urahara is one of the most powerful characters in the manga and even said he could make the attack stronger, doesn't bode well for Ulq, and that's just Benihime's basic ability

Aizen created WW to seal Yamamoto's flames. Aizen then stood idly by the entire time as WW fought Yamamoto. If he didn't know Yamamoto would destroy WW, he wouldn't have taunted Yamamoto about not paying attention to his words, which is when he was implying WW would release all the power he sealed out in one explosion, which is what downed Yamamoto

It was how WW was modified, to take down Yamamoto even if he was defeated. How is that not expecting him to defeat him?

So I dunno are we reading the same manga, or just looking at the pictures?

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 09:40 AM
See this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2340335#post2340335). Everybody doesn't agree with "Urahara=Aizen" assumption.
And then we still have Isshin, who was pushing Aizen to his limits meaning that he is close to his power.
And thus Urahara and Yoruichi who were both doing an roughly equal amount of damage + the fact that Aizen said that Urahara was his equal pre-hogyoku means that the trio "Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi" were Base Aizen's equals, even if you interpreted "Used to be equals" differently there are still indications that they were equals BEFORE the hogyoku fusion.




Do you say other captains would fail to touch an arrogant reckless Aizen who wasn't using KS? If they're perfectly capable of touching Aizen, why do you say Yoruichi did damage? How do you know, for example, Shinji with mask couldn't do more damage?
Is Shinji = Aizen?
If not then he wouldn't do the same damage as Yoruichi, Isshin and Urahara.




But using an incantation gives more time for escape, I would personally cut off the head but this is just me. ;)
Depends who you are fighting.
Isshin and Urahara are equals in my eyes so it is risky if you would attack someone head-on if that person is better in CQC.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 09:50 AM
Doesn't refute my point at all. Try a different route

Doesn't refute your point which is "Aizen knew he didn't have to dodge kidō when he attacked Urahara"? Umm, okay, if you say so. :blink


I also added Hitsugaya, who did the same (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-7/bleach/chapter-390.html) thing. Is he Aizen-speed now too?

Hitsugaya didn't fight alone, he had others to help him.


Show the scan of where Utsusemi was explained. Otherwise your "homework" comment is gonna make you look bad =/

What do you think "Utsusemi (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-118/17/)" is? Zommari makes tangible clones by using his sonido, it's simple to see the obvious connection with speed.


So why even mention Utsusemi as if it somehow makes Urahara slower than Isshin, when Isshin doesn't know it himself?

Because Urahara obviously can't do it whereas Isshin may not know the technique, hence doesn't use it.


Urahara clearly switched his gigai before Aizen could react and had his hand on his back prepared to use Kido. He didn't just disappear, he has to be fast enough to escape without Aizen seeing him do so and also at a precise moment where Aizen won't notice he's attacking an inanimate Gigai. He doesn't have time to take cover and hide like you suggested

You don't get my point, the building helped him escape without Aizen seeing him.


The bolded is false, you misunderstood the entire point of Aizen saying he was at his limits. It had nothing to do with Isshin, it was because he was being transformed by the Hogyoku into something that transcends Shinigami

So Aizen would still get transformed even if he stood still? And Aizen didn't get slower, he was slow all along? Ok, I think we're done. :darn

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 10:02 AM
Doesn't refute your point which is "Aizen knew he didn't have to dodge kidō when he attacked Urahara"? Umm, okay, if you say so. :blink

No, because posting a scan of Aizen saying he wont let him use it and Aizen saying directly afterward he doesn't need to dodge Kido does nothing to refute that he ever needed to dodge it to begin with


Hitsugaya didn't fight alone, he had others to help him.

Hitsugaya charged Aizen alone. He connected swords with him and missed an attack. Isshin did the same.

So is Hitsugaya Aizen-speed? Don't strawman the question again


What do you think "Utsusemi (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-118/17/)" is? Zommari makes tangible clones by using his sonido, it's simple to see the obvious connection with speed.


Utsusemi =/= Gemelos Sonido, otherwise Byakuya wouldn't have been so surprised by it.

Like I said, get the scan where the mechanics of Utsusemi are explained. If you don't have it, might not wanna make smart comments ;)


Because Urahara obviously can't do it whereas Isshin may not know the technique, hence doesn't use it.

Wrong again. There's the same amount of proof Isshin knows it as there is that Urahara knows it, which is absolutely none.

Your point is moot, just forget it


You don't get my point, the building helped him escape without Aizen seeing him.


Now you're saying this as if its fact. Have any proof?

But if you wanna make this claim, then you're actually making Urahara out to be faster, seeing as he'd have to perform more movements to hide in a building and then come out before Aizen even realizes he's hit the gigai and begin binding him

Sure you wanna make this claim?


So Aizen would still get transformed even if he stood still? And Aizen didn't get slower, he was slow all along? Ok, I think we're done. :darn

Another strawman, stop doing this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) to make it seem like you're putting up good arguments.

Aizen said his soul has understood the Hogyoku's will, and was thus breaking down and reconstructing his soul. What does Isshin have to do with the Hogyoku's will? Aizen was going beyond a Shinigami, becoming a transcendent, hence he reached his limit as a Shinigami, hence why he explicitly said "Of my Shinigami self" (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html)

If you're gonna blatantly ignore the manga, then yes, I do think we're done here :)

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 10:11 AM
And then we still have Isshin, who was pushing Aizen to his limits meaning that he is close to his power.
And thus Urahara and Yoruichi who were both doing an roughly equal amount of damage + the fact that Aizen said that Urahara was his equal pre-hogyoku means that the trio "Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi" were Base Aizen's equals, even if you interpreted "Used to be equals" differently there are still indications that they were equals BEFORE the hogyoku fusion.

Is Shinji = Aizen?
If not then he wouldn't do the same damage as Yoruichi, Isshin and Urahara.

Your logic:

Urahara = Aizen

Yoruichi did the same damage to Aizen, so Yoruichi = Urahara = Aizen.

My questions:

How do you know "Shinji couldn't do as much damage as Yoruichi"? How do you know KTM can't hurt Aizen if (100% fit) Komamura takes advantage of an opening and hits Aizen with his bankai? Because if Shinji or other captains are capable of doing the same damage, then it means

Other captains = Shinji = Yoruichi = Urahara = Aizen.

Isn't it a loose way to establish equality between people? I hope this isn't why you argued for Yoruichi in Yoruichi vs Byakuya thread, your premise is inaccurate. And going by your logic, Isshin is much stronger than Yoruichi and Urahara because his GT did much more damage.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that your interpretation (that Urahara = Aizen) is the most inaccurate out of all three interpretations. I wouldn't build my whole argument on such a debatable premise and I wouldn't try to measure the amount of damage on someone to rank people. I'm pretty sure Ulquiorra's LDR would do much more damage than Yoruichi's attack.

Cooper
March 12, 2011, 10:21 AM
You mean when Urahara used his shikai to fire an attack equivalent to Yammy's cero that Ulquiorra slapped away? That's not impressive at all, and given Urahara is one of the most powerful characters in the manga and even said he could make the attack stronger, doesn't bode well for Ulq, and that's just Benihime's basic ability

Aizen created WW to seal Yamamoto's flames. Aizen then stood idly by the entire time as WW fought Yamamoto. If he didn't know Yamamoto would destroy WW, he wouldn't have taunted Yamamoto about not paying attention to his words, which is when he was implying WW would release all the power he sealed out in one explosion, which is what downed Yamamoto

It was how WW was modified, to take down Yamamoto even if he was defeated. How is that not expecting him to defeat him?

So I dunno are we reading the same manga, or just looking at the pictures?

I'm not saying Urahara is weak, but he's not that strong to one-shot Ulqi with Benihime. My point is that he has to put some effort to beat Ulqi, bleachdrinkingtousen stated that he didn't.

Aizen expecting for Yama to go down because of his own incredible power using Wondy's ability to seal flames isn't the same as expecting Wondy to defeat him.

And you got me there, the pictures were so nice that I totally forgot about the text.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 10:29 AM
Your logic:

Urahara = Aizen

Yoruichi did the same damage to Aizen, so Yoruichi = Urahara = Aizen.

My questions:

How do you know "Shinji couldn't do as much damage as Yoruichi"? How do you know KTM can't hurt Aizen if (100% fit) Komamura takes advantage of an opening and hits Aizen with his bankai? Because if Shinji or other captains are capable of doing the same damage, then it means

Other captains = Shinji = Yoruichi = Urahara = Aizen.

Isn't it a loose way to establish equality between people? I hope this isn't why you argued for Yoruichi in Yoruichi vs Byakuya thread, your premise is inaccurate. And going by your logic, Isshin is much stronger than Yoruichi and Urahara because his GT did much more damage.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that your interpretation (that Urahara = Aizen) is the most inaccurate out of all three interpretations. I wouldn't build my whole argument on such a debatable premise and I wouldn't try to measure the amount of damage on someone to rank people. I'm pretty sure Ulquiorra's LDR would do much more damage than Yoruichi's attack.

First:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-15/bleach/chapter-391.html

Second:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-559-7/bleach/chapter-105.html

Yoruichi, Isshin and Urahara all did plenty of damage on him.
Isshin and Urahara were both implied to be Aizen's equal so it's only obvious that Yoruichi would also be roughly an equal to Aizen.
And I'll ask you again is Komamura = Aizen or Shinji = Aizen?

So no Tousen, Shinji, Komamura, the rest wont do that much damage on Condom Aizen, it's just that simple.(except Yamamoto obviously)


GT never did more damage it was just the final attack that made Condom Aizen's cocoon crack, that's just common sense.


The underlined is untrue as I stated above, it's about reiatsu, Condom Aizen had monstrous reiatsu and he was transcendental, these guys all did about the same damage so their reiatsu is equal.
Basically Aizen=Yoruichi=Urahara=Isshin.
Give some good counter evidence instead of just saying that it is false.

The bolded:
And why is it inaccurate?
It was implied, he did the same damage to Aizen as other people on Aizen's level and he has the hype that he is that strong.
LDR? Never even damaged anyone and was easily barehanded by Hichigo, I call that Ulquiorra-wanking.
LDR feats are inferior to Yoruichi's damage feats, try again.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 10:43 AM
Another strawman, stop doing this (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) to make it seem like you're putting up good arguments.

Aizen said his soul has understood the Hogyoku's will, and was thus breaking down and reconstructing his soul. What does Isshin have to do with the Hogyoku's will? Aizen was going beyond a Shinigami, becoming a transcendent, hence he reached his limit as a Shinigami, hence why he explicitly said "Of my Shinigami self" (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html)

If you're gonna blatantly ignore the manga, then yes, I do think we're done here :)

I'll ignore the other parts because the severity of the flaw in this argument makes every other look pale in comparison.

Aizen fought Isshin and then Aizen reached the limits of his shinigami self (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html) and you're telling me that it was merely a coincidence that Aizen reached his limit when he exerted himself to fight someone who was on par with him. Have you ever heard the concept of "reaching your limit" when fighting someone who can push you to your limits?

"Hōgyoku's will has finally begun to understand what I desire", this is what Aizen said. Hōgyoku saved Aizen by reforming Aizen's soul when Aizen was at his limit. If hōgyoku had been reforming Aizen's soul since his fight with Isshin started, why didn't Aizen notice anything before? Why did hōgyoku wait for Aizen to fight Isshin? Why didn't hōgyoku's will reform Aizen's soul in HM? Because hōgyoku intervened only when Aizen was at his limit, only when Isshin pushed Aizen to his shinigami limits.

Sorry, but your attempt to ignore Isshin's feat by saying "Aizen didn't get slower, he was slow all along during his fight with Isshin" is a direct contradiction of manga facts (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html). And this argument comes from someone who says "I ignore the manga", this is funny.
[hr]

GT never did more damage it was just the final attack that made Condom Aizen's cocoon crack, that's just common sense.

Aizen acknowledged that Isshin's attack was a good attack but he belittled Yoruichi and Urahara's attacks.


Yoruichi, Isshin and Urahara all did plenty of damage on him.
Isshin and Urahara were both implied to be Aizen's equal so it's only obvious that Yoruichi would also be roughly an equal to Aizen.
And I'll ask you again is Komamura = Aizen or Shinji = Aizen?

So no Tousen, Shinji, Komamura, the rest wont do that much damage on Condom Aizen, it's just that simple.(except Yamamoto obviously)


The underlined is untrue as I stated above, it's about reiatsu, Condom Aizen had monstrous reiatsu and he was transcendental, these guys all did about the same damage so their reiatsu is equal.
Basically Aizen=Yoruichi=Urahara=Isshin.
Give some good counter evidence instead of just saying that it is false.


And why is it inaccurate?
It was implied, he did the same damage to Aizen as other people on Aizen's level and he has the hype that he is that strong.
LDR? Never even damaged anyone and was easily barehanded by Hichigo, I call that Ulquiorra-wanking.
LDR feats are inferior to Yoruichi's damage feats, try again.

Holy cow, are you saying that Yoruichi's shunkō or Urahara's Juzutsunagi can do much more damage than Ulquiorra's LDR, Komamura's KTM, Tōsen's LNA, Shunsui's color game attack that downed Starrk, etc.? :o :s :blink

Well, I'm speechless. :darn

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 10:55 AM
I'll ignore the other parts because the severity of the flaw in this argument makes every other look pale in comparison.

Orly? Lets really examine the flaws in the arguments shall we?


Doesn't refute your point which is "Aizen knew he didn't have to dodge kidō when he attacked Urahara"? Umm, okay, if you say so. :blink<==Half Truths

Hitsugaya didn't fight alone, he had others to help him. <-- Strawman (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)

What do you think "Utsusemi (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-118/17/)" is? Zommari makes tangible clones by using his sonido, it's simple to see the obvious connection with speed. <<==Association Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy)

Because Urahara obviously can't do it whereas Isshin may not know the technique, hence doesn't use it.<<=== Argument From Ignorance (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance)

You don't get my point, the building helped him escape without Aizen seeing him.<==False Dichotmy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma)

So Aizen would still get transformed even if he stood still? And Aizen didn't get slower, he was slow all along? Ok, I think we're done. :darn<===Strawman again

Now aside from the fact you were clearly wrong in just about all those situations, you definitely can't attempt to call me out on a flawed argument.. To continue...


Aizen fought Isshin and then Aizen reached the limits of his shinigami self (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html) and you're telling me that it was merely a coincidence that Aizen reached his limit when he exerted himself to fight someone who was on par with him. Have you ever heard the concept of "reaching your limit" when fighting someone who can push you to your limits?

You're arguing a Package Deal here. I've already stated numerous times how Aizen reached his limits, and you continually construe my argument to say something about "Aizen was always slow" to ignore my point

Aizen was going beyond his limit as a Shinigami thanks to the Hogyoku, not Isshin


"Hōgyoku's will has finally begun to understand what I desire", this is what Aizen said. Hōgyoku saved Aizen by reforming Aizen's soul when Aizen was at his limit. If hōgyoku had been reforming Aizen's soul since his fight with Isshin started, why didn't Aizen notice anything before? Why did hōgyoku wait for Aizen to fight Isshin? Why didn't hōgyoku's will reform Aizen's soul in HM? Because hōgyoku intervened only when Aizen was at his limit, only when Isshin pushed Aizen to his shinigami limits.

Or maybe it was only at that time? He said finally, meaning he's been trying to do it for some time. Isshin didn't do anything to make it transform Aizen, otherwise it would've happened when Ichigo almost cut off an entire portion of Aizens body, which is a much more life threatening situation than someone swinging a sword at him and missing, as Isshin did


Sorry, but your attempt to ignore Isshin's feat by saying "Aizen didn't get slower, he was slow all along during his fight with Isshin" is a direct contradiction of manga facts (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html). And this argument comes from someone who says "I ignore the manga", this is funny.

Bolded is a clear strawman, if it isn't, go ahead and quote where I said that.

Just because I said his soul began to understand the Hogyoku doesn't even imply I meant he was slow all along. He said the Hogyoku has to reconstruct his soul and that he hit his limit, thus he was becoming fatigued. He even joined his statements when he said as much to imply that the Hogyoku was the cause of it

Sorry, you're not proving anything. Now reply to the other points I mentioned, or have you conceded them?

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 10:56 AM
He said that Yoruichi's attack couldn't defeat him:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-15.html

He did kinda belittled Urahara's attack, but he praised Urahara on more then once then occasion

And said that Isshin's attack was decent.


Even then, Isshin never did hugely more damage then either Urahara or Yoruichi, the 3 of them together cracked it, the 3 of them are atleast on the level of Aizen.

And if Isshin's GT was indeed stronger then he was a bit (can't say how much) stronger then either Aizen, Urahara and Yoruichi.
Still doesn't change the fact that they all managed to hit them and that they all are at least equals of Aizen

That's also why I said "roughly" it is perfectly possible that their powers vary a bit.

The only thing that you proved right there is that Isshin is stronger then Aizen =/



And yes shunko/benihime > those attacks that you listed :cookiestare

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 11:33 AM
Bolded is a clear strawman, if it isn't, go ahead and quote where I said that.

Here you go:


He was only slower when he fought Isshin, which Isshin himself (http://www.mangareader.net/94-50586-18/bleach/chapter-400.html) pointed out

So yes, Urahara dealt with a stronger, faster Aizen than Isshin did, for comparison.

You said "Aizen was slower when he fought Isshin" and then posted a link to the page where Aizen was getting slower at the end of his fight with Isshin as if Aizen was that slow all along.


Sorry, you're not proving anything. Now reply to the other points I mentioned, or have you conceded them?

What other points?

You say "Hitsugaya charged Aizen alone. He connected swords with him and missed an attack. Isshin did the same." Isshin fought Aizen by himself for a while, There wasn't other captains like Shunsui (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-389/17/) that Aizen had to pay attention to. You compare Hitsugaya's one simple charge with a complete fight and then think you have a point. No, you don't have any points at all.

You don't understand the logic behind Utsusemi even if it's performed by fast people like Yoruichi and Byakuya and you deny the connection between Zommari's technique and Utsusemi because well,... their names are different. :s

You don't understand why it makes sense that Urahara, Yoruichi's closest friend, isn't capable of using Utsusemi (which Yoruichi certainly wouldn't refrain from teaching) because he is using a similar technique (portable gigai) and you question why Isshin (an outsider for Yoruichi compared to Urahara) doesn't know it.

You use flashy words which you can't spell correctly (it's "dichotomy") and you think it makes sense that it was pure coincidence Aizen reached his shinigami limit when he was fighting someone who could certainly push him to his limits. Sorry, you have to come up with better arguments against other people because I won't waste my time with people who fail to see the simple connection between "Aizen fights a strong captain after fighting many people and enduring attacks" and "this strong captain eventually makes Aizen exhausted". :facepalm
[hr]

And yes shunko/benihime > those attacks that you listed :cookiestare

So shunkō and Juzutsunagi is indeed much stronger than Ulquiorra's LDR, Komamura's KTM, Tōsen's LNA, Shunsui's color game attack that downed Starrk.

I'll not reply to that, I'll leave it to other people who have the mental stability to deal with such arguments. Takahashi, I feel for you, bro. :p

Buzz Killington
March 12, 2011, 11:45 AM
Here you go:

You said "Aizen was slower when he fought Isshin" and then posted a link to the page where Aizen was getting slower at the end of his fight with Isshin as if Aizen was that slow all along.

Now when did I say that? When I did imply Isshin fought a slow Aizen (Which wasn't what I did where you quoted me) I did it to counter your claim of discrediting Urahara's gigai switch

Then I went on to say that regardless, Urahara dealt with a stronger/faster Aizen than Isshin did


What other points?

You say "Hitsugaya charged Aizen alone. He connected swords with him and missed an attack. Isshin did the same." Isshin fought Aizen by himself for a while, There wasn't other captains like Shunsui (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-389/17/) that Aizen had to pay attention to. You compare Hitsugaya's one simple charge with a complete fight and then think you have a point. No, you don't have any points at all.

This applies to you. Anyone can charge an opponent and miss, I proved that Shunsui and Hitsugaya did the exact same things. So therefore your point is invalid. Hitsugaya charged Aizen alone


You don't understand the logic behind Utsusemi even if it's performed by fast people like Yoruichi and Byakuya and you deny the connection between Zommari's technique and Utsusemi because well,... their names are different. :s

No, you're fallaciously trying to say because something is true for X, its also true for Y because their similar, which is precisely the fallacy I claimed it was. That is not the case. Just because Zommari's clones are made by adding an extra step to his Sonido doesnt mean Utsusemi follows the same rule

Again I'll cite Hitsugaya as an example. Is his Ice Clone the same? Does that mean he's as fast as Yoruichi and Byakuya or faster than people people who don't know Utsusemi?


You don't understand why it makes sense that Urahara, Yoruichi's closest friend, isn't capable of using Utsusemi (which Yoruichi certainly wouldn't refrain from teaching) because he is using a similar technique (portable gigai) and you question why Isshin (an outsider for Yoruichi compared to Urahara) doesn't know it.

That's definitely an Argument from Ignorance. It doesn't even make sense to be honest. You're trying to prove Isshin's faster than Urahara, and coming up with a claim that Byakuya and Yoruichi know Utsusemi and Urahara doesn't to support it? Then you claim Isshin just doesnt know it because he wasn't taught it?

Literally makes no sense at all, a flat out laughable claim


You use flashy words which you can't spell correctly (it's "dichotomy") and you think it makes sense that it was pure coincidence Aizen reached his shinigami limit when he was fighting someone who could certainly push him to his limits. Sorry, you have to come up with better arguments against other people because I won't waste my time with people who fail to see the simple connection between "Aizen fights a strong captain after fighting many people and enduring attacks" and "this strong captain eventually makes Aizen exhausted". :facepalm
<hr noshade size="1">

And that is exactly why its a False Dichotmy, oh sorry, False Dichotomy. Likewise I claimed that if it had anything to do with Aizens physical condition why didn't it start transforming him when Ichigo cut off half his body? Isn't that a much bigger scare than fighting Isshin, who apparently didn't even damage him?

Your logic isn't consistent

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
So shunkō and Juzutsunagi is indeed much stronger than Ulquiorra's LDR, Komamura's KTM, Tōsen's LNA, Shunsui's color game attack that downed Starrk.

I'll not reply to that, I'll leave it to other people who have the mental stability to deal with such arguments. Takahashi, I feel for you, bro. :p

Urahara and Yoruichi were implied to be Aizen's equals (Isshin too, but he is stronger in your eyes.)

Look what Aizen did with a casual slash to KTM:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-14/bleach/chapter-390.html

3rd espada > 4rd espada, the 3rd espada totally got destroyed by Aizen
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-20/bleach/chapter-375.html
It totally defeated that 3rd espada, so Aizen's reiatsu is clearly higher.

Shunsui's color game is a double edged sword and doesn't have that much damage feats except killing the primera, but his durability wasn't that great either.

I'm not impressed with your ad hominem, go whine elsewhere.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 12:27 PM
Urahara and Yoruichi were implied to be Aizen's equals (Isshin too, but he is stronger in your eyes.)

Look what Aizen did with a casual slash to KTM:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-14/bleach/chapter-390.html

3rd espada > 4rd espada, the 3rd espada totally got destroyed by Aizen
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-20/bleach/chapter-375.html
It totally defeated that 3rd espada, so Aizen's reiatsu is clearly higher.

Shunsui's color game is a double edged sword and doesn't have that much damage feats except killing the primera, but his durability wasn't that great either.

I'm not impressed with your ad hominem, go whine elsewhere.

So if Aizen can cut down KTM (of an injured Komamura) it means any attack from KTM (of 100% fit Komamura) does no damage to Aizen even if it connects. If KTM's sword hits cocoon Aizen when Aizen is off-guard/doesn't block, it still fails to do damage. I see your point.

Aizen cut down Harribel so Harribel's attacks would be totally useless against Aizen, actually if you defeat someone, it means your reiatsu is so strong that your opponent can't damage you. :D

Your examples prove nothing, you're comparing apples with oranges, the power behind KTM is much stronger than shunkō, everybody knows that.

@ Buzz Killington:

You are using words that you don't know the meaning of, false dichotomy is seeing everything black or white, ignoring the shades of gray. I say "Isshin pushed Aizen to his limits", you say "it's a huge coincidence that Aizen reached his limit (due to hōgyoku) at the exact time Aizen was fighting a strong captain that could push him to his limits." There's no logical fallacy here, at least on my end :D, there's just a reasonable conclusion (mine) and a far-fetched assumption (yours). Putting irrelevant logic terms in your post doesn't make you right, it just shows that you're a snob. :D

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 12:38 PM
So if Aizen can cut down KTM (of an injured Komamura) it means any attack from KTM (of 100% fit Komamura) does no damage to Aizen even if it connects. If KTM's sword hits cocoon Aizen when Aizen is off-guard/doesn't block, it still fails to do damage. I see your point.

Aizen cut down Harribel so Harribel's attacks would be totally useless against Aizen, actually if you defeat someone, it means your reiatsu is so strong that your opponent can't damage you. :D

Your examples prove nothing, you're comparing apples with oranges, the power behind KTM is much stronger than shunkō, everybody knows that.

KTM wasn't injured though :cookiestare

I'm not saying that it wont do any damage at all but considering their difference in reiatsu, it wont do that much.

Against Condom Aizen it wouldn't do any damage at all, because his reiatsu grew even bigger.

It's the law of reiatsu, 2 people in the manga stated it.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-14/bleach/chapter-390.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-20/bleach/chapter-375.html

Condom Aizen's durability was so great that it was withstanding hits from people that were on Aizen's level.

You have indeed proved nothing, I'm comparing Aizen-level people with folks that got defeated casually by that very Aizen.
Aizen's reiatsu is overwhelmingly bigger then theirs and that's why he did it so casually in the first place.

If Aizen really tried to damage Condom Aizen (stronger then those casual slashes) then the result would be the same if Yoruichi, Urahara and Isshin did it.

And it isn't common sense, it's your own ridiculous oppinion that doesn't have any proof at all.
[hr]

, it just shows that you're a snob. :D

Overusing Ad hominem, are we?

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 12:55 PM
KTM wasn't injured though :cookiemonster

I said "Komamura was injured" which means his reiatsu was lower than usual.


I'm not saying that it wont do any damage at all but considering their difference in reiatsu, it wont do that much.

Against Condom Aizen it wouldn't do any damage at all, because his reiatsu grew even bigger.

This is absolutely wrong, where did you get this idea from? :blink


It's the law of reiatsu, 2 people in the manga stated it.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-14/bleach/chapter-390.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-20/bleach/chapter-375.html

Hisagi's reiatsu must be so great that Tosen didn't stand a chance:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/18/

You still don't understand the difference between "being strong enough to cut someone down" and "getting absolutely no damage from someone's attacks".


Condom Aizen's durability was so great that it was withstanding hits from people that were on Aizen's level.

We've never seen a captain who failed to do similar damage to Aizen's this form but I guess you've already seen it and basing your whole argument on it. :blink


You have indeed proved nothing, I'm comparing Aizen-level people with folks that got defeated casually by that very Aizen.
Aizen's reiatsu is overwhelmingly bigger then theirs and that's why he did it so casually in the first place.

Umm, does KS (which lets Aizen dodge attacks and take no damage) mean anything to you? Aizen didn't get damage from other captains because their attacks did NOT connect, not because they hit but failed to damage Aizen.


Overusing Ad hominem, are we?

Are you Buzz Killington's friend? You're both using logic terms and you both signed up in this month.

Anyway you use words like "absurd" and "ridiculous" about my opinions and then complain about personal attacks. Pay attention to your own words first.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 01:18 PM
I said "Komamura was injured" which means his reiatsu was lower than usual.
How much lower was it?
You said that Komamura was injured, his bankai was fine.
The fact still stands that Aizen did it casually in base, anyway there is a big difference anyway look at this particular moment:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-630-15/bleach/chapter-176.html
That wasn't bankai Komamura, but it was never implied that it would increase his own durability.
Aizen cut through KTM and Komamura like butter.


This is absolutely wrong, where did you get this idea from? :blink
Try to prove me wrong.




Hisagi's reiatsu must be so great that Tosen didn't stand a chance:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/18/
Tousen was taken totally off-guard, and taken off-guard means that your reiatsu wont protect you (unless you have Hierro or other means of durability, like Condom Aizen clearly has)
And this is the perfect example for that:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-8/bleach/chapter-396.html
Onguard:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-11/bleach/chapter-396.html

Tousen clearly blocked KTM first :
http://www.mangareader.net/94-42482-11/bleach/chapter-386.html
And then Hisagi killed him, so if you want to deny my previous proof then you are basically saying that Hisagi > KTM



You still don't understand the difference between "being strong enough to cut someone down" and "getting absolutely no damage from someone's attacks".
And you don't understand that Aizen-level attacks, which brought down the liked of Komamura easily, did hardly any damage on Condom Aizen.





We've never seen a captain who failed to do similar damage to Aizen's this form but I guess you've already seen it and basing your whole argument on it. :blink
Aizen > captains except Yamamoto.





Umm, does KS (which lets Aizen dodge attacks and take no damage) mean anything to you? Aizen didn't get damage from other captains because their attacks did NOT connect, not because they hit but failed to damage Aizen.
Look again.
Aizen blocked Ichigo's sword with just his finger.
Aizen blocked Komamura's sword with just his hand
Aizen was destroying captain level opponents with just a few hits (sometimes one-shotting), even if those captains were using bankai.

Normal Aizen can get damaged if he isn't on-guard, if he is then he can block slashes with his bare hands.






Are you Buzz Killington's friend? You're both using logic terms and you both signed up in this month.

Anyway you use words like "absurd" and "ridiculous" about my opinions and then complain about personal attacks. Pay attention to your own words first.
Does it even matter? I am against the use of Ad hominem and that's why I posted that.

I wasn't attacking you personally, I was attacking your arguments which isn't Ad Hominem, so I was paying attention.

CeroOskuraz
March 12, 2011, 01:27 PM
I said "Komamura was injured" which means his reiatsu was lower than usual.

Here to pull an assist to Buzz Killington.

Sorry, but there's absolutely no reason to believe Aizen's Reiatsu was below normal in the beginning of his match with Aizen, seeing as how the Hogyoku acts as a buffer against injuries and as such. So that's a strawman to being with.


This is absolutely wrong, where did you get this idea from? :blink

Maybe the fact that Aizen broke Tenken without touching it, maybe because Aizen's grabbed Tenken with his bare hands, stopped Tensa Zangetsu with a finger, and so on.

That's BASE Aizen, by the way


Hisagi's reiatsu must be so great that Tosen didn't stand a chance:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/18/

You still don't understand the difference between "being strong enough to cut someone down" and "getting absolutely no damage from someone's attacks".

I'm afraid you don't understand the difference between Aizen and the hollow you're referencing.

In that case it's perfectly logical to assume that they will be unable to damage his Condom form given the sheer difference in the properties of their Reiatsu, not just the strength of it.

Think of it this way. His Reiatsu was so great it made FKT Ichigo with 2x Captain's Reiatsu lose resolve. No one has ever accomplished this with just a presence.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2011, 02:05 PM
@ Kugo Ginjo:

1) Shinji, Hitsugaya, Soifon and Shunsui were all open (=off-guard) when Aizen attacked them, therefore you can't compare Yoruichi and Urahara with other captains anymore because you made the "on-guard", "off-guard" distinction. And there're lots of people who argue Aizen used KS and created openings against other captains, which makes your whole argument moot.

2) You use "Urahara=Aizen" as a premise to prove "Urahara=Aizen", you say "Urahara is Aizen-level and he did damage to Aizen, so this damage shows that Urahara and Yoruichi are Aizen-level". In your terms, this logical fallacy is called "Petitio Principii", which is "begging the question."

3) You think that if a captain like Yoruichi is stronger than Komamura or Kenpachi, it means Yoruichi hits much harder than Komamura and Kenpachi, which is plain wrong. Yoruichi's strength lies in her speed and she may not be able to hit as hard as Kenpachi or Komamura. If you think Yoruichi's one shunkō attack can do much more damage to KTM (=simply kill Komamura) than Tōsen's LNA which basically one-shotted Komamura, then you're again wrong.

I must say you totally misunderstood what Bleach is about, this is why you make simplistic deductions like "everything who can hurt cocoon Aizen is Aizen-level." No, not at all, it's more like "many captains can do similar damage to cocoon Aizen (for example, Soifon's bankai is certainly stronger than Yoruichi's shunkō) provided that Aizen will stop being cautious and welcome these attacks, as he did against Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin." You need to understand that Urahara and Yoruichi would also fail to do that damage to shinigami Aizen using KS to avoid their attacks, so please stop comparing apples (=KS cautious Aizen) with oranges (=cocoon reckless Aizen).
[hr]

Here to pull an assist to Buzz Killington.

I'm having a discussion with two people (from the same school?) and now, as if it's not enough, another one (who uses terms like "strawman") joins the fray. Ok, I'm leaving the discussion for now, I have work to do and I will reply to you (I mean your friends) later if I have time and energy.

Kugo Ginjo
March 12, 2011, 02:13 PM
1. Nope they got blitzed, re-read those chapters.
Not being able to react =/= off-guard.

2. If people do the same amount of damage to a superior opponent, means that they are equal in bleach, that is all there is to it.

3. Why is that wrong?
Because it doesn't feel right or anything, is no argument at all and is just looking for excuses.
Condom Aizen withstanded much more powerful attacks from people that are stronger then Tousen and why are they stronger then Tousen?
Look what Aizen did to KTM and compare that to LNA, Aizen's casual slashes did more damage then LNA.

Even if he was "welcoming" attacks doesn't make it possible for weaker people like Soi Fon to damage him, if that was a welcoming Aizen then a serious one wouldn't get damaged by people on Aizen's level either.

You haven't proven anything with that post at all, he didn't use KS to stop attacks from captain level opponents nor was KTM getting sliced an illusion

ShootToKill
March 12, 2011, 03:57 PM
Ignoring the seemingly more fashionable topic of whether Urahara > Aizen or Aizen > Urahara, I would say Urahara should win this. Isshin seems to be more powerful, and a direct hit with his Getsuga Tensho might indeed finish it, but Urahara's combat abilities shouldn't be called into question either. His speed should be extremely good, since he trained frequently with Yoruichi, so he shouldn't be far from her level.

His Kido skills will also be extremely dangerous in a fight, not to mention the versatility of Benihime. As far as I know we haven't seen any Kido from Isshin, the main thing he has going for him is that he seemed equal to pre-condom Aizen in straight sword fighting. However, we don't KNOW that Urahara isn't basically at that level himself, and as said before, he is overall a more versatile fighter than what we know of Isshin, so I think Urahara would win the fight, with some difficulty.

Raizen
March 12, 2011, 09:10 PM
1. Nope they got blitzed, re-read those chapters.
Not being able to react =/= off-guard.

2. If people do the same amount of damage to a superior opponent, means that they are equal in bleach, that is all there is to it.

3. Why is that wrong?
Because it doesn't feel right or anything, is no argument at all and is just looking for excuses.
Condom Aizen withstanded much more powerful attacks from people that are stronger then Tousen and why are they stronger then Tousen?
Look what Aizen did to KTM and compare that to LNA, Aizen's casual slashes did more damage then LNA.

Even if he was "welcoming" attacks doesn't make it possible for weaker people like Soi Fon to damage him, if that was a welcoming Aizen then a serious one wouldn't get damaged by people on Aizen's level either.

You haven't proven anything with that post at all, he didn't use KS to stop attacks from captain level opponents nor was KTM getting sliced an illusion
Is that why he stated "You are all full of openings"? He used KS to create openings by enraging hitsu. Which worked because it got all of the other captains to worry about hitsu. So wrong
___________________
This urahara hyped is ridiculous. I do believe urahara is a powerful shinigami, but these posts are way too ludicrous.. almost to the point where i want to vote for isshin just out of spite.

What happened to the good posters that used to be here :fail

freshseth83
March 12, 2011, 09:27 PM
I don't see anything that puts Urahara's skills above Isshin's. Isshin might have came in and fought Aizen after Ichigo hit him with a GT and all that, but that's not to say Isshin is weak. By that measure Urahara is weak as well. No one is suggesting this, but the comments suggesting Urahara's abilities are as good or beyond Isshin's are off the mark.

I'm not getting involved in any of the arguing back and forth, but I already showed the failures of some of the posts pointing to feats of Urahara being greater than Isshin's. All of them (urahra isshin yoruichi) fought Aizen. But the only one to fight Aizen BEFORE he went in Chrysalis stage was Isshin. We might not be able to say for sure where Aizen's strength was at that point in time, but his subjugation of the Hoguyoku had already begun. This was evident when he was being healed after Yama and Ichigo's attacks. So to say that the Hog' hadn't taken affect yet is wrong.

With that said the Aizen that Isshin fought should have been at least on par with his normal self, even if he didn't get to use KS. Those saying that Urahara is better than Isshin at this and that, forget that Aizen is, in their minds, equal to Urahara. So if that's the case, Aizen couldn't push Isshin to his limits, it was the other way around. So if Aizen can't push Isshin, what makes you think Urahara can? On top of it, after the fact that Isshin stood at least on equal ground with Aizen for their skirmish, Aizen had used Kido to no avail. So in my mind we can take out the kido part saying Urahara would catch Isshin with it, when Aizen couldn't.

Further into my reasoning, Isshin fought at least equally against Chrysalis Aizen as Urahara and Yoruichi. If not more so. While Urahara may have had kido work against Aizen and a technique he invented, it ultimately had to be done to a careless Aizen. Isshin is far from careless. On top of that, I have a hard time believing that Isshin would even be caught by Urahara, seeing as how his shunpo skills seem to me to be above Urahara's. If he was able to go toe to toe with Aizen, and on top of it Shunpo Ichigo far enough away and hide BOTH of their reiatsu's, I'd say he's got better shunpo feats than Urahara. So the techniques that Urahara used against Aizen, I doubt could be done to Isshin, besides maybe the gigai trick. And the feats against Chrysalis Aizen I would argue Isshin had the edge seeing as how the GT attack was as powerful as anything Urahara showed. And even more so than his Shikai attacks.

Finally, Isshin was the first to get back up after Aizen downed the three of them (urahara isshin yoruichi). On top of that, he was able to open a gate and hold the precipice world for 3 months while Ichigo trained for the Final GT. Then, we know Isshin is capable of doing the same. With that said, I believe he's more in tune with his zanpakuto than Urahara, seeing as how Urahara had a bankai trick that he invented. And unless Urahara has a technique comparable to Final GT, I don't think he's as well versed into his zanpakuto as Isshin is. Just my opinion.

Kugo Ginjo
March 13, 2011, 07:20 AM
Is that why he stated "You are all full of openings"? He used KS to create openings by enraging hitsu. Which worked because it got all of the other captains to worry about hitsu. So wrong

Full of openings =/= Offguard.

Tonix
March 13, 2011, 03:58 PM
You said that Komamura was injured, his bankai was fine.

You are absolutely correct! It's not like tousen had just beaten the crap out of Komamura's bankai or anything. All the attacks tousen landed on Komamura were on Komamura, not his bankai. And don't forget that a shinigami being injured and low on reiatsu has absolutely no effect on their bankai.

Ps
I'm still waiting on those examples of hado being implied to be harder than bakudo.

Crystal Black
March 13, 2011, 04:09 PM
I don't think it was ever implied, but the manga does point towards that direction. But again we only seen the Kido masters pull off high level hado's. Kira did use a hado 70 something can't remember exactly but Kira did it. So that should be no problem for a captain or anyone in that class.

freshseth83
March 13, 2011, 04:29 PM
Kira was able to make kido barriers and use kido as a healing tool to fix Matsumoto. If he can do this, someone like Byakuya can as well. In fact, didn't Byakuya made a kido barrier to protect Rukia against his bankai when he fought Zommari?

That's besides the point. If you remember back, Aizen tried to use kido against Isshin, and it missed. After their 'fight' Isshin didn't have a stratch on him. In fact during the fight against Chrysalis Aizen, Isshin did the most damage (from a move of his own zanpakuto). The net that Urahara casted and the impending explosion did do damage, I'm not saying it didn't, but when Isshin did the Getsuga Tenshou, it would have split Aizen in half. In fact it basically did, the hog' just healed him.

Kugo Ginjo
March 13, 2011, 04:31 PM
You are absolutely correct! It's not like tousen had just beaten the crap out of Komamura's bankai or anything. All the attacks tousen landed on Komamura were on Komamura, not his bankai. And don't forget that a shinigami being injured and low on reiatsu has absolutely no effect on their bankai.

Ps
I'm still waiting on those examples of hado being implied to be harder than bakudo.

Tell me, where do you see any wounds on KTM aside from Aizen's slash:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-13/bleach/chapter-390.html
I just stated that his bankai was fine, never said that Komamura was.

Byakuya:
Highest bakudo: 81
Highest hado: 33

Tessai:
Highest Bakudo: 99
Highest hado: 89

Kira:
highest bakudo: 73
highest hado: 58

There are more examples for this, but hado seems harder to master then bakudo or it isn't as easy to use.

Tonix
March 13, 2011, 05:17 PM
Tell me, where do you see any wounds on KTM aside from Aizen's slash:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-13/bleach/chapter-390.html
I just stated that his bankai was fine, never said that Komamura was.

Byakuya:
Highest bakudo: 81
Highest hado: 33

Tessai:
Highest Bakudo: 99
Highest hado: 89

Kira:
highest bakudo: 73
highest hado: 58

There are more examples for this, but hado seems harder to master then bakudo or it isn't as easy to use.

All the damage Komamura received was from damage to his bankai, if Komamura wasn't fine, then neither was his bankai.

And I noticed that you not only got Byakuya's highest hado number wrong, but you also left out people who have casted higher hado than bakudo. Not that it matters anyways, because none of that implies that hado is anymore difficult than bakudo.

exacta
March 13, 2011, 08:21 PM
Was this supposed to prove anything? You should re-read that scene, Ulquiorra slappping away that particular blast of Benihime isn't very impressive at all =/

You missed the point entirely. Some people on this forum were saying Ulquiorra stands NO CHANCE against Urahara and that all he would need was his shikai. But unsealed Ulquiorra deflected one of his shikai attacks with ease. It's not like Urahara would one shot him. So yes, it does prove something. It proves that Urahara is NOT in a completely different league and does not completely outclass Ulquiorra or something. I doubt Kubo meant for that moment to be taken as unimpressive, as obviously he was trying to make Ulquiorra look strong. It's also the first time we've seen a character deflect an attack from Urahara with his hand. Actually, I don't think anyone else has ever blocked Uraharas Benihime GT-like attack(not counting when Ichigo fired his GT at him in that flashback scene which might've only been in the anime, can't remember). Though the really strong characters probably could.

And in a way you help prove that by saying Uraharas attack is unimpressive. If his shikai attack is unimpressive, then how the hell is his shikai supposed to completely curbstomp Ulquiorra in SE??? I'm not saying Urahara would neccessarily lose, but its not like Urahara would just kill him in one hit. Sheesh.
[hr]

perhaps you stopped reading the manga long before ... you should have read until the part where cocoon aizen fought yoruichi/isshin/urahara

edit : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-18.html

You mean the fight where Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi got owned and Cocoon Aizen lol'd at all their attacks? Yeah, I read that.:-_-

Urahara won later because he hid a sealing kido in there. All of the attacks launched on Aizen in that fight were mostly ineffective, incluing the ones from Benihime. It looked like they damage him, but it didn't even fatigue him and he came out of the cocoon fine. Isshin's GT did the most damage out of all their attacks, not Urahara's.

LucyBenard
March 14, 2011, 12:50 AM
I just signed up to vote for Isshin after reading this thread.

The amount of baiting, illogical thinking, and very poorly constructed arguments from the Urahara voters is simply astonishing.

There is a fine line between letting your imagination run loose and complete denial.

Takahashi
March 14, 2011, 01:01 AM
I just signed up to vote for Isshin after reading this thread.

The amount of baiting, illogical thinking, and very poorly constructed arguments from the Urahara voters is simply astonishing.

There is a fine line between letting your imagination run loose and complete denial.

Welcome to the forums, even if it was only to spite the Urahara voters :amuse

Jackk
March 14, 2011, 02:18 AM
But sealed Ulquiorra deflected one of his shikai attacks with ease.

I think that when Buzz Killington said that Ulquiorra slapping away that particular blast of Benihime isn't very impressive at all... he was referring to that fact that not only was that energy blast not directed at Ulquiorra (it was directed at Yami), but also the fact that Urahara had adjusted that particular energy blast to merely have the power to exactly match Yami's basic cero--which is why Ulquiorra stopping that particular energy blast from Urahara isn't all that impressive. The relevant pages are the following:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page014.html

As you can see, Kisuke outright stated that since deflecting the attack would be dangerous to bystanders, he merely dissipated Yami's cero by meeting it with a blast of equal power. Then Kisuke states that Yami doesn't seem to believe him so he decides to demonstrate to Yami the attack that he had used earlier to exactly match and effectively dissipate or cancel out Yami's cero.

Basically, Kisuke adjusted his energy attack to exactly match the amount of power that Yami's cero had. Then, Yami didn't know what happened...Yami didn't know how Kisuke was able to stop his cero, which is then when Kisuke decides to throw at Yami the same energy attack that he had used just a moment ago. This clearly means that that attack carried exactly the same power as Yami's basic cero. Therefore, that particular energy blast that Kisuke threw at Yami was purposefully weak.

Kisuke even explained later that he can analyze the patterns in his opponent's muscle movements, in order to dodge their attacks. And if the attack is an energy attack, he can even analyze the spirit particle composition of the attack and cancel it out with his own energy attack. Here we find out how Kisuke is able to actually adjust the power of his energy attack to match that of his enemies; Kisuke clearly does it by analyzing the spirit particle composition of his opponent's attack, then he adjusts his own accordingly and by timing it right...he can cancel out his opponent's energy attack. http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-8/bleach/chapter-235.html (I suppose that Kisuke can do this as long as he as the actual power to match his opponent's attack, which he clearly does against Yami. Besides, Kisuke was really just toying with Yami...considering that we later even see Kisuke making fun of Yami (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-2/bleach/chapter-235.html))

In addition, it's also interesting to note that Kisuke has canceled out Yami's cero as well as Yami's Bala. And we know from Yami that Balas while being 20 times faster than a cero are also not as strong (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-234/page013.html), which means that Kisuke had to release an even weaker energy attack to cancel out Yami's bala. I think this also shows Kisuke's incredible mastery of his abilities, considering that not only can he regulate the power of his energy blasts at will, but he can also even release the energy in different forms, shapes, and sizes... :o

Look:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/bleach/chapter-235.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page014.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-97-page-15.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-233/page016.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-233/page013.html

Considering what we've seen from Kisuke, I'm pretty sure that he's also certainly capable of releasing his energy blasts at the same time as he's slashing something, which will definitely increase the power/strength of his strikes. Heck, we already know that he can even hold the energy in his blade, right here for example: http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/bleach/chapter-235.html

I think that the energy blast that he used to slice in half Luppi's tentacle was Kisuke's strongest energy blast that "we've seen" so far, considering that he also shot that from a significant distance and still cut through released Luppi's hierro--who was the 6th Espada at the time. Granted we don't know to what extent Urahara can amplify the power of his energy blasts, but at least it's pretty much a fact that the blast that Kisuke adjusted to merely match Yami's basic cero (the one that Ulquiorra intercepted and deflected) was NOT Kisuke's most powerful energy blast.

Anyway, based on what we've seen so far... I will still grant that Isshin's GT (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-20.html) does seem to be more powerful;however, at least, Kisuke's energy blasts seem more spammable. And Kisuke's shikai is, in general, more versatile by virtue of having more abilities--which give him both offense and defense. Even if Isshin was capable of shattering Kisuke's Blood Mist Shield (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-193-page-20.html), I think that it could, at least, still allow Kisuke to delay Isshin's attack for a moment in order for him to shunpo out of the way. Furthermore, Kisuke's Shibari Benihime (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-16.html) net could be quite useful if he manages to catch Isshin off guard, and then he could use Hiasobi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-17.html) to ignite the net, and finally blast him hard with Juzutsunagi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-18.html).

Now, yes, Isshin is strong and powerful and Urahara needs to avoid getting a direct hit from Isshin's GT at all cost. Nevertheless, Urahara is also pretty strong in his own right and Isshin really needs to avoid a Shibari, Hiasobi and Juzutsunagi combo as well. Even if Isshin was still somewhat stronger, Urahara is still significantly more versatile. Add to that Kisuke's superior analytical skills, his portable gigai (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-402/page008.html)--which could create a good opening for him to catch Isshin off-guard--as well his kido chains, and his originally developed sealing techniques such as the reiatsu seal (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-402/page018.html) and the other sealing kido tech (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-421/page021.html) that he can hide inside another kido blast (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-421/page014.html), and yeah... I think Urahara Kisuke will win this match more often than not.

Buzz Killington
March 14, 2011, 07:37 AM
I think that when Buzz Killington said that Ulquiorra slapping away that particular blast of Benihime isn't very impressive at all... he was referring to that fact that not only was that energy blast not directed at Ulquiorra (it was directed at Yami), but also the fact that Urahara had adjusted that particular energy blast to merely have the power to exactly match Yami's basic cero--which is why Ulquiorra stopping that particular energy blast from Urahara isn't all that impressive. The relevant pages are the following:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page014.html

As you can see, Kisuke outright stated that since deflecting the attack would be dangerous to bystanders, he merely dissipated Yami's cero by meeting it with a blast of equal power. Then Kisuke states that Yami doesn't seem to believe him so he decides to demonstrate to Yami the attack that he had used earlier to exactly match and effectively dissipate or cancel out Yami's cero.

Basically, Kisuke adjusted his energy attack to exactly match the amount of power that Yami's cero had. Then, Yami didn't know what happened...Yami didn't know how Kisuke was able to stop his cero, which is then when Kisuke decides to throw at Yami the same energy attack that he had used just a moment ago. This clearly means that that attack carried exactly the same power as Yami's basic cero. Therefore, that particular energy blast that Kisuke threw at Yami was purposefully weak.

Why yes, that is exactly what I meant good sir

Paying attention to detail makes these things so much easier to understand

exacta
March 14, 2011, 10:02 AM
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page014.html

As you can see, Kisuke outright stated that since deflecting the attack would be dangerous to bystanders, he merely dissipated Yami's cero by meeting it with a blast of equal power. Then Kisuke states that Yami doesn't seem to believe him so he decides to demonstrate to Yami the attack that he had used earlier to exactly match and effectively dissipate or cancel out Yami's cero.



I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post, I shouldn't be on here right now so I don't have time to read the whole thing. But yes, I was well aware that Kisuke's attack was supposed to match Yammi's cero in power, but that doesn't mean Yammi's cero or Kisuke's attack were weak. If it really was so weak then I doubt Kubo would've bothered to draw a panel of Kisuke showing a surprised expression when Ulquiorra intercepted and blocked the attack.

My post wasn't really meant to to show who would win between Isshin and Urahara, I was just pointing out that Ulquiorra in Segunda Etappa can't just be oneshot by Urahara like some chump( it was offtopic I know, but I thought the idea of this was absurd). Urahara would definitely need Bankai, DEFINITELY. Not saying he wouldn't win, but he can't do it in just shikai if Ulquiorra is in his second release form.

Buzz Killington
March 14, 2011, 10:35 AM
Urahara wouldn't need Bankai to defeat Ulquiorra. That's a stretch. He didn't even bother with Bankai against Aizen, his Kido prowess alone should suffice

But yes, that attack was only as strong as Yammy's cero, hence it was unimpressive it was smacked away.

As for the topic, I remain adamant that Urahara takes this

exacta
March 14, 2011, 10:41 AM
Urahara wouldn't need Bankai to defeat Ulquiorra. That's a stretch. He didn't even bother with Bankai against Aizen, his Kido prowess alone should suffice

But yes, that attack was only as strong as Yammy's cero, hence it was unimpressive it was smacked away.

As for the topic, I remain adamant that Urahara takes this

His shikai was not effective at all, it was the sealing kidou he created that did it, and Urahara said that it would not have worked on Aizen before he had fused with the Hogyoku since back then he was much more cautious. His shikai did not defeat Aizen. It was his intellect that did coupled with Aizen's carelessness. And Ichigo weakening him enough for it to activate. Also Yammy's cero wasn't weak, when it collided with Uraharas it made a huge explosion, though it certainly wasn't the strongest cero we've seen at that point.

In terms of sheer power and reiatsu, Urahara would need to go Bankai against an all out Ulquiorra, unless he was going to whip out another invention or something.

I lean towards Isshin just because Isshin is a beast, and probably knows Uraharas tricks better than most.

Buzz Killington
March 14, 2011, 11:41 AM
His shikai was not effective at all, it was the sealing kidou he created that did it, and Urahara said that it would not have worked on Aizen before he had fused with the Hogyoku since back then he was much more cautious. His shikai did not defeat Aizen. It was his intellect that did coupled with Aizen's carelessness. And Ichigo weakening him enough for it to activate. Also Yammy's cero wasn't weak, when it collided with Uraharas it made a huge explosion, though it certainly wasn't the strongest cero we've seen at that point.

No no no, see. You've got it all wrong. Urahara said it wouldn't work on Aizen because Aizen wouldn't have come into physical contact with him twice without a plan, in other words, be more cautious. However, that is Aizen, not Ulquirora, who is far below Aizen in power. So what applies to Aizen does not apply to Ulquiorra in the slightest

Urahara used 2 seals. One which blasted Aizens own reiatsu back on him which Aizen admitted would've killed him, and another which is what activated after Ichigo used Mugetsu. The 1st seal would suffice for Ulquiorra, and if not, Urahara could probably defeat him with a 90s level Kido, like, Hado 91 coupled with other ablities.

Yammy's cero did not explode at all upon contact, that was the entire point of Urahara matching it precisely to avoid that very result, he only dissipated (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html) it. Either way, Ulq slapping it isn't impressive because all that means is that Ulq could slap away Base Yammy, the 10th Espada's Cero.

Yeah, not very impressive


In terms of sheer power and reiatsu, Urahara would need to go Bankai against an all out Ulquiorra, unless he was going to whip out another invention or something.


No, he definitely would not. Ulquiorra is the 4th strongest Espada. Aizen said he alone is more powerful than all the Espada. Urahara is equal in power to this same Aizen. He has far more sheer power and reiatsu than Ulquiorra


I lean towards Isshin just because Isshin is a beast, and probably knows Uraharas tricks better than most.

Isn't there the no knowledge rule in play here?

Jackk
March 14, 2011, 11:56 AM
Isn't there the no knowledge rule in play here?

Yeah, neither of them have any knowledge on one another in this tournament. And this is yet another reason why I give the edge to Urahara seeing as he's more analytical as well as more versatile and has more abilities/techniques.

exacta
March 14, 2011, 01:03 PM
No no no, see. You've got it all wrong. Urahara said it wouldn't work on Aizen because Aizen wouldn't have come into physical contact with him twice without a plan, in other words, be more cautious. However, that is Aizen, not Ulquirora, who is far below Aizen in power. So what applies to Aizen does not apply to Ulquiorra in the slightest

Urahara used 2 seals. One which blasted Aizens own reiatsu back on him which Aizen admitted would've killed him, and another which is what activated after Ichigo used Mugetsu. The 1st seal would suffice for Ulquiorra, and if not, Urahara could probably defeat him with a 90s level Kido, like, Hado 91 coupled with other ablities.

Yammy's cero did not explode at all upon contact, that was the entire point of Urahara matching it precisely to avoid that very result, he only dissipated (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html) it. Either way, Ulq slapping it isn't impressive because all that means is that Ulq could slap away Base Yammy, the 10th Espada's Cero.

Yeah, not very impressive



No, he definitely would not. Ulquiorra is the 4th strongest Espada. Aizen said he alone is more powerful than all the Espada. Urahara is equal in power to this same Aizen. He has far more sheer power and reiatsu than Ulquiorra



Isn't there the no knowledge rule in play here?

Urahara is not equal to Aizen in power, his intellect exceeds his, which is definitely a strength. Urahara was frightened by Aizens reiatsu back in TBTP. They are not equal in reiatsu and strength, but Urahara is more clever. Urahara wouldn't be able to oneshot Ulquiorra like Aizen did to the captains. Again, not saying he'd lose.

And also Urahara said it worked because Aizen was less cautious, it had nothing to do with power. Ulquiorra is less powerful but probably had the best analyzing skills of the Espada next to Stark.

And Yammi's cero exploded in the anime. I wouldn't know about the manga since when I started reading Bleach we were up to Grimmjows final fight, so I was able go a decent way into the story without having to read the manga. Also, how do we know the attack Urahara launched at Yammi was equal in strengh to the one he canceled out with the first time?? If really was different in power, wouldn't he have had to make the second one stronger in order to dispatch Yammi?? That scene was obviously intended to hype up Ulquiorra, you can't deny that. Lets just let the whole Ulquiorra thing go, its way offtopic.

Isshin's very strong, and he was able to fatigue Aizen before he transformed, whereas it seems like Urahara's physical abilities were not on par with Aizen, since he called him a monster right before the smoke cleared. Isshin was able to flick the old Aizen through a building by flicking the air with his finger. No one else has shown to be able to do that. And he's got huge reiatsu as shown from the Dangai. The guys a beast, and he's not careless either. Thats why I lean towards him.

Buzz Killington
March 14, 2011, 01:28 PM
Urahara is not equal to Aizen in power

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-9.html

You'd be interested to know this is after Aizen made this statement
http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html

Just to put things into perspective


his intellect exceeds his, which is definitely a strength

Yeah I know


Urahara was frightened by Aizens reiatsu back in TBTP.

Prove it. I don't remember this. This is all he said, or was gonna say...
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-327-page-16.html


They are not equal in reiatsu and strength, but Urahara is more clever.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-9.html

Or, if you wanna look at it from a different perspective. Form a conclusion based off of these scans

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-229-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-229-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-415-page-7.html


Urahara wouldn't be able to oneshot Ulquiorra like Aizen did to the captains. Again, not saying he'd lose.


Depends on how he goes about it, don't forget Aizen had Kyoka Suigetsu to find openings on these Captains. I personally don't see Ulq surviving being hit with a Hado 91 or the Reiatsu cuff Kido


And also Urahara said it worked because Aizen was less cautious, it had nothing to do with power. Ulquiorra is less powerful but probably had the best analyzing skills of the Espada next to Stark.

Analyzing skills that pale in comparison to Aizen, who's intellect is lower than Urahara's. You're assuming because Aizen was careless that anyone who isn't careless won't have to worry about Urahara's techniques. That is false. It is about power. Ulquiorra simply isn't in Urahara's league to where whether he's careless or not would make a difference


And Yammi's cero exploded in the anime. I wouldn't know about the manga since when I started reading Bleach we were up to Grimmjows final fight, so I was able go a decent way into the story without having to read the manga. Also, how do we know the attack Urahara launched at Yammi was equal in strengh to the one he canceled out with the first time?? If really was different in power, wouldn't he have had to make the second one stronger in order to dispatch Yammi?? That scene was obviously intended to hype up Ulquiorra, you can't deny that. Lets just let the whole Ulquiorra thing go, its way offtopic.

He never said he was gonna kill Yammy, he just said he was gonna show him the technique again because Yammy didn't believe him.


Isshin's very strong, and he was able to fatigue Aizen before he transformed, whereas it seems like Urahara's physical abilities were not on par with Aizen, since he called him a monster right before the smoke cleared. Isshin was able to flick the old Aizen through a building by flicking the air with his finger. No one else has shown to be able to do that. And he's got huge reiatsu as shown from the Dangai. The guys a beast, and he's not careless either. Thats why I lean towards him.

Sure, Isshin's a beast. I'm not trying to discredit him. Urahara never called Aizen a monster though, must've been some type of anime filler you're referencing, which isn't canon. Like I was saying before, Urahara was dealing quite well with a stronger version of Aizen, and would've killed him without even using his shikai, just a gigai switch and kido and his own intelligence to outsmart Aizen

He's not lacking in comparison to Isshin by any means

freshseth83
March 14, 2011, 03:43 PM
He said though were no longer equal/comparable in strength. That's not saying we used to be the same strength before I got the hoguyoku in my chest. I think anyone that believes that is reading into things way too far. Dude just said he was stronger than any of the espada, but was he? Maybe he had control over them because he had them all under KS, like the gotei 13. The last time Aizen saw Urahara was back in TBTP arc. Over 100 years before. If he was saying were no longer comparable in strength, why wouldn't he mean the last time they met? Which was when Aizen was a V/C. What other time did Aizen have to gauge Urahara's strength/abilities? Never. The only time anyone relatively close to Aizen met Urahara was Ulquiorra and Yammi. That wasn't a very long fight, so with that in consideration I'm betting he meant the last time they met. Which was over 100 years ago. In that time Aizen became captain, put his plans in motion, gathered the espada, stole the hog' etc. Urahara was never comparable in strength or the same strength as Aizen since TBTP days. At least in Aizen's mind. I don't care what abilities each character has shown. I already voted. I've read enough of the comments and already gave my opinion. It's not easy for any of these guys to win, but I feel Isshin would.

Takahashi
March 14, 2011, 03:47 PM
I'd like to point out that comparable =/= equal.......

I can be compared to Usain Bolt, doesn't mean I'm gonna be anywhere near him when the race is over.

Aizen was progressing into a whole new world of power. Obviously, him being on a higher level altogether would make anyone of a lower level of power incomparable.

Jackk
March 14, 2011, 04:09 PM
Urahara is not equal to Aizen in power

Well Aizen himself actually admitted that Kisuke was the only being who surpassed his intellect--which means that Kisuke is more intelligent than Aizen. Furthermore, Kubo also implied that Kisuke and Aizen had equal or comparable power before Aizen started evolving with the Hogyouku.

In the scan that Bleachexile has of chapter 405, Aizen says: "You are the only being within soul society who is beyond my intellect. Even if we no are longer equals in power, I still have interest in you." http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-9.html

And in Cnet's translation of chapter 405, Aizen says: "You are the only person in all of Soul Society with intelligence surpassing my own. // We may no longer be comparable in power, but that does not eliminate my interest in you." http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22775

I think it's clear right there that Kubo was saying that Kisuke and base Aizen were equal in power;however, when Aizen fused with the Hogyouku and turned into that chrysalis form... they were now no longer equals in power. And it makes sense too, considering how that chrysalis Aizen was even talking about how he could already feel how his new powers were surpassing that of his old self.

Besides, we saw that Kisuke was even able to react to Aizen's shunpo, in FKT, and managed to fool him with the portable gigai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-415-page-9.html). Further, there's even the fact that in the FKT fight against Chrysalis Aizen.... Kisuke was able to detect, and warn Yoruichi about Aizen coming out and on his way to attack her http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-416-page-17.html ...Kisuke even tanked an attack from Chrysalis Aizen. Heck chrysalis Aizen using only his hand was able to slash Kisuke and make him lose blood (http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch402%2Fbleach-ch402-17.png), but again, that attack didn't take Kisuke down. Further, we even saw that the attack that Chrysalis Aizen used to knock down Kisuke, Yoruichi, and Isshin...didn't actually do a whole lot of damage to Kisuke. We know that Kisuke got up some unknown time after Isshin, and he later went to SS most likely to help Ichigo, and definitely to make sure that his seal activated on Aizen. We saw that Kisuke mostly just had some bruises that don't mean a whole lot in Bleach. Kisuke's clothes weren't even torn; he looked fine. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-434-page-15.html

Kisuke even blocked an attack from chrysalis aizen, and then trapped him with a chain from one side (Isshin trapped Aizen with a chain on the other side)

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-403/page011.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-403/page012.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-403/page013.html

I'm just pointing that out because even if you argue that chrysalis/cocoon Aizen wasn't as cautious or wasn't using his KS complete hypnosis, he was still undeniably more powerful than his old self. Yet Urahara Kisuke could still damage him some (Urahara even dealt some damage to chrysalis Aizen with his shikai Juzutsunagi tech), and was able to hang in there for a while. Therefore it's not ridiculous to believe that Urahara could have really been roughly equal in power to base Aizen (Aizen with no Hogyouku in him and not using illusions).

Now, of course, even if Kisuke and base Aizen were roughly equal in power... Aizen still has his extremely broken zanpakutou ability of complete hypnosis, so yeah, I suppose Aizen could still beat him if he has Kisuke under complete hypnosis. But if Kisuke doesn't get caught in complete hypnosis somehow, I think he does have the power, intellect, tools, and abilities/techniques that can defeat base Aizen. Heck Aizen himself even said that Kisuke's kidou abilities would have certainly finished him had it not been for the Hogyouku.


his intellect exceeds his, which is definitely a strength.

Yes, I agree. :toc


Urahara was frightened by Aizens reiatsu back in TBTP.

Urahara never stated that he was frightened by Aizen's reiatsu. Tessai was surprised to see a VC stopping his hadou with a chant-less Danku;however, Byakuya can do Danku too but I'm pretty sure that Urahara isn't frightened by Byakuya's reiatsu either. Heck Urahara was not frightened at all to go up against an evolved Aizen....


And also Urahara said it worked because Aizen was less cautious, it had nothing to do with power.

Urahara's kido prowess and his sealing kido techs would work on anyone if he caught them. They are pretty much finishing moves. Nobody is surviving being blasted from the inside-out by their own reiatsu (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-402/page019.html) (unless they have a hougyouku in them making them immortal), and seeing as Aizen couldn't get out of Kisuke's final sealing tech (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-421/page021.html), and that that was basically Kisuke's trump card to beat his opponent....I don't see how Ulquiorra or Isshin would get out of it if they get caught by it.

Also, the following is what Urahara said to Aizen:

Ju-Ni's translation-

Kisuke says: "In the past, you never would've come into physical contact with me twice without any kind of plan." http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch402%2Fbleach-ch402-18.png

And Cnet's translation-

Kisuke says: "..I don't think you understand. // When I called you careless, I wasn't referring to your failure to dodge my Kidou. // In the old days... // ...you would never have dreamed of directly touching me twice without good reason." http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22335

In other words, old Aizen would have been more cautious, yes, but because Kisuke is strong and very dangerous. And nowhere in there does Kisuke really say that it would have been completely impossible for him to do anything to Aizen. Granted it may have been more difficult to trap old Aizen perhaps, but not impossible...considering chrysalis Aizen even admitted that Kisuke's intellect was higher, and that they used to be comparable in power.

And either way, Ulquiorra cannot equate to a very cautious Aizen, so yeah...even if Urahara really would not have been able to catch old Aizen with his kido techs, it doesn't mean that Urahara will not be able to catch Ulquiorra or Isshin in this particular match--specially since Urahara's opponent here does not have knowledge regarding Urahara's abilities either.


Ulquiorra is less powerful but probably had the best analyzing skills of the Espada next to Stark.

Urahara's analytical skills are still superior though.


And Yammi's cero exploded in the anime.

I don't remember seeing that, but either way... this is manga discussion; the anime is not canon here. As Buzz Killington stated, Yammy's cero did not explode at all upon contact, that was the entire point of Urahara matching it precisely to avoid that very result, he only dissipated (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-194/page013.html) it. The manga made that very clear.


Also, how do we know the attack Urahara launched at Yammi was equal in strengh to the one he canceled out with the first time?? If really was different in power, wouldn't he have had to make the second one stronger in order to dispatch Yammi??

How do we know? Well I showed you with extreme detail in one of my previous posts. Urahara did not say that he was trying to kill Yami with the second energy blast, he was only demonstrating to him the blast that he had used just a moment ago to dissipate/cancel out Yami previous cero--which is why that second blast was adjusted to also only carried the same amount of power as Yami's basic cero, and Urahara wasn't really intending to kill Yami with that. Please read my other post as I explained it with even more detail there: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2345403&postcount=175

Also, as I said before, we really don't know to what extent Urahara can amplify his energy blasts;however, the one that he threw at Yami was adjusted to carry the same amount of power as Yami's basic cero. And I really don't think that Urahara's more powerful energy blasts are around that level of power. I mean, this is sealed Yami we're talking about, the freaking 10th Espada--who is by far the weakest in terms of reiatsu since Espadas are ranked by reiatsu.


Urahara's physical abilities were not on par with Aizen, since he called him a monster right before the smoke cleared.

What Urahara told Ichigo after blasting Aizen from the inside-out with the reiatsu seal was the following:

Ju-Ni-

"It's not over yet. It'd be lovely if something like that was the end of this since that would mean he was just an ordinary monster." http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch403%2Fbleach-ch403-03.png

Or Cnet's translation-

Urahara: "It would be nice if this were enough to finish him off. // That would make him just a monster. // But no... // He'll be back any moment now." http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22336

But Urahara is basically saying that he already knew that his reiatsu seal was not going to kill Aizen because he was now more than just an ordinary monster that could have still been killed by that. In other words, the Hogyouku basically made Aizen immortal--which the manga later affirms again (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-423/page003.html). And Urahara had anticipated this, which is why his real plan was to seal Aizen with his other sealing tech, just as Urahara revealed to Aizen later on (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-421/page015.html). Therefore, the reiatsu seal seemed to have been used more to try to weaken and/or buy time for Kisuke's main seal to activate, which was the one that was inside the lv90th Hadou. And it took even longer to activate due to Aizen evolving further, hence it only finally activated after Aizen was weakened enough by Ichigo's FGT. I explained this more in detail here: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2341560&postcount=1268


Isshin was able to flick the old Aizen through a building by flicking the air with his finger. No one else has shown to be able to do that. And he's got huge reiatsu as shown from the Dangai. The guys a beast, and he's not careless either. Thats why I lean towards him.

I think the "finger flick" was some sort of kido tech. Besides, we didn't see Isshin doing that to Aizen again when they were in their sword fight, thus he was probably able to pull that finger move on Aizen because he caught him off guard initially. Nevertheless, I admit, it was pretty nice seeing Aizen getting pushed back like that.

Isshin is certainly strong and powerful, he does seem to have high reiatsu and good endurance. And he may not be very careless, but I think that Urahara is even more cautious.

You seem to still believe that Isshin wins and I'll respect your opinion;however, I think that Urahara wins this match more often than not due to him still being pretty strong in his own right, but most importantly due to him being more analytical and significantly more versatile than Isshin right now. Like I said in one of my previous posts (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2345403&postcount=175), Urahara still needs to avoid a direct hit from Isshin's GT;however, I think that Isshin also really needs to avoid getting hit by a Shibari, Hiasobi and Juzutsunagi combo as well. Kisuke also has more techniques and abilities (more shikai abilities, kido chains, gigai trick, sealing kido techs), which Isshin has no knowledge of in this tournament.

Buzz Killington
March 14, 2011, 04:59 PM
Yeah, Jackk hit it right on. It's pretty clear Aizen meant they were equals in power before the Hogyoku made him stronger, saying otherwise is just outright denying manga canon for no reason at all

Urahara = Base Aizen in power, all the while being more intelligent

LucyBenard
March 14, 2011, 06:46 PM
I see that most of the Urahara voters have wagered their arguments on this quote, found in chapter 405:

We are no longer comparable in power

The general and simple interpretation of the above line is:

All shinigami are comparable in terms of power. Aizen was evolving into something that was beyond the realm of both shinigami and hollows when he spoke of the above line. Ergo, Aizen was alluding to the fact that he was no longer a shinigami, and hence, comparing his power to another shinigami (Urahara) was no longer meaningful. Thus, the line: "we are no longer comparable in power".

Pretty straight forward explanation, I hope :)

exacta
March 14, 2011, 07:26 PM
Yeah, Jackk hit it right on. It's pretty clear Aizen meant they were equals in power before the Hogyoku made him stronger, saying otherwise is just outright denying manga canon for no reason at all

Urahara = Base Aizen in power, all the while being more intelligent

We no longer may be comparable in power doesn't mean equal, Aizen just meant that Urahara was no longer the same dimension of power as Aizen. That is true, since they could not even sense Aizen. Urahara has never displayed Aizen-level feats in terms of speed and power. Theres also clearly alot about the Hogyouku, Urahara and Aizen that we don't know.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-51581-3/bleach/chapter-403.html

Yeah, Urahara said it right freaking there. Aizens a monster. He's always been a monster,a few chapters before that he took down the Vizards and Gotei 13 by himself. Aizen's always been alot stronger than the majority of characters in this manga. Aizen was always stronger than Urahara. He's freaking Aizen. If Urahara and Aizen were on the same level of power, then Urahara could've just fought him by himself and been done with it a long time ago.

http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-315.5-page-225.html

That panel depicts Urahara being intimidated by Aizens reiatsu.

And that scene with Ulquiorra was CLEARLY meant to make Ulquiorra look strong, especially with Urahara's surprised look. There would be absolutely no other reason for Kubo to depict the scenario like that. Ulquiorra deflecting Urahara's attack with his hands WAS impressive.

Urahara is not going to defeat Ulquiorra like a noob like Aizen does to captains and vizards. For the god-knows-how-many-th time, I'm not saying he wouldn't win, but its not gonna be an easy fight for him, and you could definitely argue.

The finger flick move was not kidou. It was just a finger flick. Isshin didn't catch Aizen off guard, he just pwned him. They were clashing swords. Also, most of that fight was actually off screen, so we can't say he couldn't use it again or didn't use it again.

I still lean towards Isshin, even with Urahara's inventions. Hes better at combat, and catching him off guard isn't easy.

Tonix
March 14, 2011, 08:18 PM
Yeah, Jackk hit it right on. It's pretty clear Aizen meant they were equals in power before the Hogyoku made him stronger, saying otherwise is just outright denying manga canon for no reason at all

Urahara = Base Aizen in power, all the while being more intelligent

Being comparable in power does not mean that they were equals. It means that they were around the same level/in the same tier. Aizen was more than likely still stronger than Urahara before he fused with the hogyoku, but they were still close enough that Urahara could have conceivably beaten him if they were to fight.

freshseth83
March 15, 2011, 12:16 AM
Aizen even said before he subdued the hog' that his abilities were already above that of the Gotei 13. I still think Aizen talks out his ass, because if that were the case he would have been able to defeat them all, but he needed the espada, needed WW to seal RJ etc. etc. Aizen isn't the topic here, Isshin and Urahara are. I take Isshin in a FIGHT, not a battle of intellect. But that is what this is. A fight. With that thinking, Isshin isn't going to sit around waiting for Urahara to bring out kido spells and place seals on him. He's not careless, too strong for you, Aizen.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 02:57 AM
We no longer may be comparable in power doesn't mean equal, Aizen just meant that Urahara was no longer the same dimension of power as Aizen. That is true, since they could not even sense Aizen. Urahara has never displayed Aizen-level feats in terms of speed and power. Theres also clearly alot about the Hogyouku, Urahara and Aizen that we don't know.

He said equal, point blank period. Nothing to do with dimensions, just power. No need to start reaching for all these alternate explanations for such a simple matter.

Urahara hasn't displayed Aizen-level speed or power? He's shown better, in fact. A Full incanted Hado 91 after using other High Level Kido in quick succession, whereas Aizen failed to complete a Hado 90. Switching his gigai out at the moment of attack from a faster, stronger Aizen without him being able to tell the difference until it was too late


http://www.mangareader.net/94-51581-3/bleach/chapter-403.html

Yeah, Urahara said it right freaking there. Aizens a monster. He's always been a monster,a few chapters before that he took down the Vizards and Gotei 13 by himself. Aizen's always been alot stronger than the majority of characters in this manga. Aizen was always stronger than Urahara. He's freaking Aizen. If Urahara and Aizen were on the same level of power, then Urahara could've just fought him by himself and been done with it a long time ago.

This is irrelevant because its Hogyoku Aizen. Obviously he's a monster, you said he said this in TBTP, which he didn't. The bolded is also false, and you can't make such a statement. May as well say Yamamoto could've just destroyed Aizen a long time ago.


http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-315.5-page-225.html

That panel depicts Urahara being intimidated by Aizens reiatsu.

No it doesn't. That panel depicts Aizen telling Urahara he knows alot about him and Kisuke being surprised about it.


And that scene with Ulquiorra was CLEARLY meant to make Ulquiorra look strong, especially with Urahara's surprised look. There would be absolutely no other reason for Kubo to depict the scenario like that. Ulquiorra deflecting Urahara's attack with his hands WAS impressive.

Lets not get into what Kubo would do, seeing as you don't know it any more than I do. What we know is that Kisuke specifically stated he was firing another of the same attacks that was equal in power to Yammy's cero. If you find slapping that away impressive thats great. All that scene proved was that the short guy was stronger than the bigger one


Urahara is not going to defeat Ulquiorra like a noob like Aizen does to captains and vizards. For the god-knows-how-many-th time, I'm not saying he wouldn't win, but its not gonna be an easy fight for him, and you could definitely argue.

Let's put it this way. I don't see Urahara needing Bankai nor being in any danger of dying if he were to fight Ulquiorra.


The finger flick move was not kidou. It was just a finger flick. Isshin didn't catch Aizen off guard, he just pwned him. They were clashing swords. Also, most of that fight was actually off screen, so we can't say he couldn't use it again or didn't use it again.


That finger flick was Hado 1 Sho. Shunsui did the exact same thing here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-560-15/bleach/chapter-106.html). Unless you're ready to claim that Isshin has more power in 1 finger than Yamamoto does in his fist, then there's no reason to believe it wasn't Kido

exacta
March 15, 2011, 10:08 AM
He said equal, point blank period. Nothing to do with dimensions, just power. No need to start reaching for all these alternate explanations for such a simple matter.

Urahara hasn't displayed Aizen-level speed or power? He's shown better, in fact. A Full incanted Hado 91 after using other High Level Kido in quick succession, whereas Aizen failed to complete a Hado 90. Switching his gigai out at the moment of attack from a faster, stronger Aizen without him being able to tell the difference until it was too late



This is irrelevant because its Hogyoku Aizen. Obviously he's a monster, you said he said this in TBTP, which he didn't. The bolded is also false, and you can't make such a statement. May as well say Yamamoto could've just destroyed Aizen a long time ago.



No it doesn't. That panel depicts Aizen telling Urahara he knows alot about him and Kisuke being surprised about it.



Lets not get into what Kubo would do, seeing as you don't know it any more than I do. What we know is that Kisuke specifically stated he was firing another of the same attacks that was equal in power to Yammy's cero. If you find slapping that away impressive thats great. All that scene proved was that the short guy was stronger than the bigger one



Let's put it this way. I don't see Urahara needing Bankai nor being in any danger of dying if he were to fight Ulquiorra.



That finger flick was Hado 1 Sho. Shunsui did the exact same thing here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-560-15/bleach/chapter-106.html). Unless you're ready to claim that Isshin has more power in 1 finger than Yamamoto does in his fist, then there's no reason to believe it wasn't Kido


If the finger flick was Hado 1 Sho, then Isshin would've said Hado 1 Sho.....Thats some serious bullshit. Even if it was Sho, fact is it sent Aizen through several buildings without him even using the incantation. I don't think Shunsui did it in that scenario either, I think it was just a finger flick, but if it was Sho then when Shunsui did it, it just sent Chad flying a few feet. I'm telling you its not Sho, but even if it was, then that just makes Isshin look stronger than the current Gotei 13 captains. And no, I doubt Isshin has more power than Yama's 1 finger. If Yama flicked his finger at Aizen it'd probably do even more damage than when Isshin did it. Theres no reason to think it was kidou. And if neither Shunsui nor Isshin said Hado 1 Sho when they performed that attack, theres no reason to think it was. When Byakuya did it, he pointed at Rukia with his finger and she moved a few feet. Byakuya didnt flick his finger, what Isshin and Shunsui did is something different.

I said Urahara said that about Aizen right before he transformed, which is true, because before he saw the smoke clear revealing transformation he said he wasn't just any monster. He said that in FKT, not TBTP. I said Urahara was frightened by Aizen's reiatsu in TBTP.

That panel does show Urahara being intimidated by Aizen's reiatsu, and they are NOT equals in power. What Urahara did with his kidou is something I can see a decent amount of other characters doing, I wouldn' say it makes him the best kido user in the story, hes obviously proficien in it though. And yeah, Aizen screwed up Hado 90, but it was still enough to destroy Komamura.:-_- And that gigai thing is an invention that Urahara made. Aizen level power is speedblitzing Captains and slashing through Komamura's Bankai like butter, blocking swords with his hand, that kind of stuff. Kisuke does not possess those kind of physical abilities.

Urahara and Aizens are not equals in pure power, and I see Urahara needing Bankai to beat Ulquiorra. Its obvious Kubo used that scene to hype up Ulquiorra, Kubo does shit like that all the time. He never said equal, he said comparable.I'm not wasting time continuing this argument, its pointless. Aizen's reiatsu has always been a much higher level compared to Urahara's and other captains.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 10:32 AM
If the finger flick was Hado 1 Sho, then Isshin would've said Hado 1 Sho.....Thats some serious bullshit. Even if it was Sho, fact is it sent Aizen through several buildings without him even using the incantation. I don't think Shunsui did it in that scenario either, I think it was just a finger flick, but if it was Sho then when Shunsui did it, it just sent Chad flying a few feet. I'm telling you its not Sho, but even if it was, then that just makes Isshin look stronger than the current Gotei 13 captains. And no, I doubt Isshin has more power than Yama's 1 finger. If Yama flicked his finger at Aizen it'd probably do even more damage than when Isshin did it. Theres no reason to think it was kidou.

It was Kido. You don't have to say an incantation or a word to use Kido, Urahara's done it before too (http://www.mangareader.net/94-502-14/bleach/chapter-48.html)

Like I said, if you're gonna say that was just the force from 1 of Isshins fingers sending Aizen flying, then Yamamoto possesses less force in his entire fist, seeing as it didn't send Aizen anywhere (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-8/bleach/chapter-394.html)

It's clearly obvious that was Kido. Just a very strong one because Isshin has alot of reiatsu to put behind it. Byakuya's Sho (http://www.mangareader.net/94-755-5/bleach/chapter-301.html) was similar to Shunsui's, although its safe to assume he wasn't putting full force into it


I said Urahara said that about Aizen right before he transformed, which is true, because before he saw the smoke clear revealing transformation he said he wasn't just any monster.

Urahara had already seen and Aizen had already talked about how the Hogyoku was making him nigh invincible, he even let us know here that was the case here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-57630-15/bleach/chapter-421.html), where he applied the seals before Aizens complete transformation (http://www.mangareader.net/94-57630-14/bleach/chapter-421.html)

Those scans directly contradict your point. Also, you'd be interested to see this scan (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html), which is before Kisuke made that statement as well.

Either way you look at it, your point would be invalidated


That panel does show Urahara being intimidated by Aizen's reiatsu, and they are NOT equals in power. What Urahara did with his kidou is something I can see a decent amount of other characters doing, I wouldn' say it makes him the best kido user in the story, hes obviously proficien in it though. And yeah, Aizen screwed up Hado 90, but it was still enough to destroy Komamura.:-_- And that gigai thing is an invention that Urahara made. Aizen level power is speedblitzing Captains and slashing through Komamura's Bankai like butter, blocking swords with his hand, that kind of stuff. Kisuke does not possess those kind of physical abilities.

As for the bolded, no it doesn't. At all

Unfortunately you constantly typing "They aren't equals in power" when Aizen clearly says they are in Canon (http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html) means nothing to me, because its just you denying manga canon. So you're gonna have to try a different route to prove your point

Aizen messed up Hado 90, Urahara performed Hado 91 in succession after other high level Kido. Hado 90 knocking out Komamura doesn't mean much when you consider Aizen himself implied he would've had to run (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html) from the same attack if he wasn't empowered by the Hogyoku, meaning he saw it as dangerous. You know, the same guy who stops swords with fingers, cuts down Komamura etc, saw Urahara's Kido as life threatening

The gigai is Kisuke's invention, but its application requires precision and speed, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-6/bleach/chapter-235.html) so much so that his opponent can't see the switch happen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/bleach/chapter-235.html). Aizen never did until after he'd attacked it, and this is a stronger faster form of Aizen than his normal shinigami form whom Kisuke had to time against perfectly


Urahara and Aizens are not equals in pure power, and I see Urahara needing Bankai to beat Ulquiorra. Its obvious Kubo used that scene to hype up Ulquiorra, Kubo does shit like that all the time. He never said equal, he said comparable.I'm not wasting time continuing this argument, its pointless.

Bolded is proven false, the rest is baseless conjecture

Its fine if you don't wanna continue, I'd encourage as much ;)

exacta
March 15, 2011, 10:57 AM
It was Kido. You don't have to say an incantation or a word to use Kido, Urahara's done it before too (http://www.mangareader.net/94-502-14/bleach/chapter-48.html)

Like I said, if you're gonna say that was just the force from 1 of Isshins fingers sending Aizen flying, then Yamamoto possesses less force in his entire fist, seeing as it didn't send Aizen anywhere (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-8/bleach/chapter-394.html)

It's clearly obvious that was Kido. Just a very strong one because Isshin has alot of reiatsu to put behind it. Byakuya's Sho (http://www.mangareader.net/94-755-5/bleach/chapter-301.html) was similar to Shunsui's, although its safe to assume he wasn't putting full force into it



Urahara had already seen and Aizen had already talked about how the Hogyoku was making him nigh invincible, he even let us know here that was the case here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-57630-15/bleach/chapter-421.html), where he applied the seals before Aizens complete transformation (http://www.mangareader.net/94-57630-14/bleach/chapter-421.html)

Those scans directly contradict your point. Also, you'd be interested to see this scan (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html), which is before Kisuke made that statement as well.

Either way you look at it, your point would be invalidated



As for the bolded, no it doesn't. At all

Unfortunately you constantly typing "They aren't equals in power" when Aizen clearly says they are in Canon (http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html) means nothing to me, because its just you denying manga canon. So you're gonna have to try a different route to prove your point

Aizen messed up Hado 90, Urahara performed Hado 91 in succession after other high level Kido. Hado 90 knocking out Komamura doesn't mean much when you consider Aizen himself implied he would've had to run (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-17/bleach/chapter-402.html) from the same attack if he wasn't empowered by the Hogyoku, meaning he saw it as dangerous. You know, the same guy who stops swords with fingers, cuts down Komamura etc, saw Urahara's Kido as life threatening

The gigai is Kisuke's invention, but its application requires precision and speed, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-6/bleach/chapter-235.html) so much so that his opponent can't see the switch happen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-689-7/bleach/chapter-235.html). Aizen never did until after he'd attacked it, and this is a stronger faster form of Aizen than his normal shinigami form whom Kisuke had to time against perfectly



Bolded is proven false, the rest is baseless conjecture

Its fine if you don't wanna continue, I'd encourage as much ;)

Sho wasn't even introduced until the HM arc, so obviously Shunsui didn't do it. You can't say it was kidou when it was just a simple flick without any incantation or kidou like energy being produced. It was not kidou.

Your also an idiot for not seeing that when Yamamoto tried to punch Aizen Wonderweiss intercepted. Seriously, what the hell?? Do you even look at the links you post?? In the middle panel you see Wonderweiss' body intercepting, and in the bottom you see Yamamoto smacking Wonderweiss away. How am I supposed to take your points seriously when you keep screwing up like that, all the while acting obnoxious about it?:mad

In the scan you showed me, Aizen said right there that he no longer needs to dodge level 90s kidou, meaning he let Urahara hit him because he thought it would be meaningless. Urahara saying the old him wouldn't let himself get hit means the old Aizen probably would've dodged. And of course he would, level 90s kidou are usually quite powerful, normally you can't just sit there and take it. Hell, he took a Hado 96 from yamamoto and he escaped with only minor damage, and when Yamamoto cast it Aizen was standing right infront of him. Level 90s kido are dangerous, regardless of whether its Urahara casting them or not. Obviously he would run away if did not have the Hogyoku, and if he can effectively escape form Yama's higher-numbered kidou when Yamas literally holding his ankle, I'm pretty sure he can escape from Urahara's kidou, with minor damage at best. Urahara would not be able to get his seal in on the Aizen that didn't become careless due to fusing with the Hogyoku.

Aizen's reiatsu is stronger than Urahara's, Urahara does not have the same monstrous reiatsu. It's Uraharas inventions that could defeat Aizen, not his swordplay or agility, because this are not on Aizen's level as most characters aren't.

The post you showed me that said Aizen saying they were equals in power is a different translation, and its not the one I follow, and most people probably don't.

If me saying Urahara needs Bankai to defeat Ulquiorra is baseless conjecture, then what the hell is the opposite???? Isn't all of it baseless conjecture since they've never had a real fight anyway?? Either way its an opinion, and if you dismiss every different idea thens yours as wrong, then your a biggot. You didn't prove Aizen and Urahara were equals, Aizen's shunpo and sword swings are still on a different level, and Aizen even said he knew about Urahara's gigai and thought he wouldn't use such an attack or something of the sort. Doesn't mean Aizen is slower than Urahara, it has nothing to do with speed, you just can't tell the fake Urahara from the real one, it functions as a decoy. At this rate my post is probably going to get deleted.

Yeah I think I will discontinue this argument, your giving me a freaking headache, and your starting to act like a troll. No wonder your name is Buzz Killington, god.

CeroOskuraz
March 15, 2011, 10:57 AM
If the finger flick was Hado 1 Sho, then Isshin would've said Hado 1 Sho

You've obviously never heard of silent kido...

...This isn't just an anecdotal fallacy. This is factually incorrect information.


.....Thats some serious bullshit. Even if it was Sho, fact is it sent Aizen through several buildings without him even using the incantation. I don't think Shunsui did it in that scenario either

Anecdotal fallacy


, I think it was just a finger flick, but if it was Sho then when Shunsui did it, it just sent Chad flying a few feet.

Inavlid Comparison


I'm telling you its not Sho, but even if it was, then that just makes Isshin look stronger than the current Gotei 13 captains.

Non-sequiter


And no, I doubt Isshin has more power than Yama's 1 finger. If Yama flicked his finger at Aizen it'd probably do even more damage than when Isshin did it.

Conjecture.


Theres no reason to think it was kidou. And if neither Shunsui nor Isshin said Hado 1 Sho when they performed that attack, theres no reason to think it was.

Argument from ignorance.


When Byakuya did it, he pointed at Rukia with his finger and she moved a few feet. Byakuya didnt flick his finger, what Isshin and Shunsui did is something different.

'Proof by example


I said Urahara said that about Aizen right before he transformed, which is true, because before he saw the smoke clear revealing transformation he said he wasn't just any monster. He said that in FKT, not TBTP. I said Urahara was frightened by Aizen's reiatsu in TBTP.

Factually incorrect information.


That panel does show Urahara being intimidated by Aizen's reiatsu, and they are NOT equals in power. What Urahara did with his kidou is something I can see a decent amount of other characters doing,

Anecdotal fallacy


I wouldn' say it makes him the best kido user in the story, hes obviously proficien in it though. And yeah, Aizen screwed up Hado 90, but it was still enough to destroy Komamura.

Helping your opponent's argument


:-_- And that gigai thing is an invention that Urahara made.

Red herring


Aizen level power is speedblitzing Captains and slashing through Komamura's Bankai like butter, blocking swords with his hand, that kind of stuff.

Proof by example


Kisuke does not possess those kind of physical abilities.

Argument from ignorance
Factually incorrect


Urahara and Aizens are not equals in pure power, and I see Urahara needing Bankai to beat Ulquiorra.

Begging the question
Conjecture


Its obvious Kubo used that scene to hype up Ulquiorra

Conjecture


, Kubo does shit like that all the time.

Anecdotal fallacy


He never said equal, he said comparable.

Semantics


I'm not wasting time continuing this argument, its pointless.

Concession


Aizen's reiatsu has always been a much higher level compared to Urahara's and other captains

Argument from ignorance
Begging the question

Yeah your point is completely invalid because I can find logical fallacies in almost every sentence you wrote. Try again.

The horrible part is that I agree with your stance on Isshin winning, but your reasoning is simply horrid, which is why to actually stop people from avoiding voting for Isshin by assocation with you, I have to shut down your argument. Please, for the sake of potential Isshin voters, stop getting owned in debates.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 11:02 AM
Your an idiot if you think Shunsui and Isshin were using Sho. Sho wasn't even introduced until the HM arc, so obviously Shunsui didn't do it. You can't say it was kidou when it was just a simple flick without any incantation or kidou like energy being produced. It was not kidou.

Your also an idiot for not seeing that when Yamamoto tried to punch Aizen Wonderweiss intercepted. Seriously, what the hell?? Do you even look at the links you post?? In the middle panel you see Wonderweiss' body intercepting, and in the bottom you see Yamamoto smacking Wonderweiss away. How am I supposed to take your points seriously when you keep screwing up like that, all the while acting obnoxious about it?:mad

In the scan you showed me, Aizen said right there that he no longer needs to dodge level 90s kidou, meaning he let Urahara hit him because he thought it would be meaningless. Urahara saying the old him wouldn't let himself get hit means the old Aizen probably would've dodged. And of course he would, level 90s kidou are usually quite powerful, normally you can't just sit there and take it. Hell, he took a Hado 96 from yamamoto and he escaped with only minor damage, and when Yamamoto cast it Aizen was standing right infront of him. Level 90s kido are dangerous, regardless of whether its Urahara casting them or not. Obviously he would run away if did not have the Hogyoku, and if he can effectively escape form Yama's higher-numbered kidou when Yamas literally holding his ankle, I'm pretty sure he can escape from Urahara's kidou, with minor damage at best. Urahara would not be able to get his seal in on the Aizen that didn't become careless due to fusing with the Hogyoku.

Aizen's reiatsu is stronger than Urahara's, Urahara does not have the same monstrous reiatsu. It's Uraharas inventions that could defeat Aizen, not his swordplay or agility, because this are not on Aizen's level as most characters aren't.

The post you showed me that said Aizen saying they were equals in power is a different translation, and its not the one I follow, and most people probably don't.

If me saying Urahara needs Bankai to defeat Ulquiorra is baseless conjecture, then what the hell is the opposite???? Isn't all of it baseless conjecture since they've never had a real fight anyway?? Either way its an opinion, and if you dismiss every different idea thens yours as wrong, then your a biggot. You didn't prove Aizen and Urahara were equals, Aizen's shunpo and sword swings are still on a different level, and Aizen even said he knew about Urahara's gigai and thought he wouldn't use such an attack or something of the sort. Doesn't mean Aizen is slower than Urahara, it has nothing to do with speed, you just can't tell the fake Urahara from the real one, it functions as a decoy. At this rate my post is probably going to get deleted.

Yeah I think I will discontinue this argument, your giving me a freaking headache, and your starting to act like a troll. No wonder your name is Buzz Killington, god.

So when all else fails (All your points to be precise).. Rely on the Old adages of Ad Hominem and Ad Nauseam, right? Lol. I'm not impressed. Stop exemplifying this
(http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm)
Anyway, Urahara wins for reasons I've stated countless times in this thread

Jackk
March 15, 2011, 01:52 PM
Just like how Urahara can't shoot lasers when his sword is sealed right?

The cane could have been modified to shoot kido or something similar. Heck the shaft of the cane also has a skull and flame mark at its base, pretty much like that of the Shinigami glove that Rukia had (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-2-page-14.html)-- which allows them to separate a human body from their soul.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-29-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-29-page-14.html

Actually, I'm pretty convinced that Kisuke modified his zanpakutou in some way (to turn into a cane etc) because in a flashback of when Kisuke was in the Gotei 13...Kisuke's Benihime was not a cane in its sealed state, it was a regular sealed zanpakutou back then http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-130/page010.html

Similarly, even Yamamoto seemed to have somehow modified his zanpakutuou into some wooden staff as well, but he can get it out of there to reveal the actual sealed zanpakutou http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-155/page011.html.

Anyway, I don't think that that beam (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-18.html) that Kisuke shot at Aizen was a Benehime shikai ability. Every time we've seen Kisuke using his Nake energy blasts, blood mist shield, Shibari, Hiasobi, or Juzutsunagi... his zanpakutou has been in shikai form. Heck every time we've seen pretty much every other shinigami using one of their zanpakutou special abilities, their zanpakutou has been in, at least, Shikai state. Regular sealed zanpakutous logically don't have special abilities, they are sealed--which is why shinigamis release their zanpakutous in order to use their special abilities.

As for Isshin, I believe he was in shikai because GT seems to be a shikai ability; Ichigo learned it from Zangetsu and he told Byakuya that that was zangetsu's special ability http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-6.html ....And it seems that Isshin's Engetsu is somehow similar to Ichigo's zangetsu. Furthermore, Isshin even very explicitly called out the same of his shikai attack "Getsuga Tenshou" when he used it against Aizen.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-418-page-20.html

Besides, not every zanpakutou changes form while in shikai; some examples include: Aizen's zanpakutou, Yama's zanpakutou, and Tousen's zanpakutou. Engetsu may be very similar to zangetsu, but it doesn't have to be exactly the same in everything. In other words, they don't have to look the same; they even have different names...

Anyway, I still hold that Urahara wins this particular match against Isshin more often than not. Isshin may be pretty strong and powerful, and he may have good endurance. But Urahara Kisuke is also pretty strong in his own right, though most importantly...Urahara has superior analytical skills, and he is significantly more versatile in terms of abilities: more shikai abilities, gigai substitution, kido chains, sealing kido techs. Granted Kisuke still needs to avoid a direct hit from Isshin's GT, but I think that the same could be said about Isshin and Juzutsunagi. Also, even if Isshin was capable of shattering Kisuke's Blood Mist Shield, I think that it could, at least, still allow Kisuke to delay Isshin's attack for a moment in order for him to shunpo out of the way, thus it should still be a viable defensive tech. Furthermore, even if Kisuke's energy blasts are not as powerful as Isshin's GT, Kisuke's energy blasts at least seem more spammable and Kisuke seems to have a great deal of control over that tech seeing as he can not only regulate the power of those energy blasts at will, but he can also even release the energy in different forms, shapes, and sizes--and rather quickly too. Again Isshin is strong, but in the end... Urahara is just outright more versatile and more analytical--which gives him the edge here.

Takahashi
March 15, 2011, 02:45 PM
@CeroOskuraz

It's nice to see someone educated enough to use words typically never used. Problem is, you come across as a picky, rude English teacher.

"Anecdotal fallacy", "anecdotal fallacy". This manga has so many unknowns, that taking single evidence as proof is ALL we have in situations like these. You're acting like people are hastily forming anecdotal evidence, and disregard it, despite the fact that we have essentially zero manga fact to go by for these two characters (Isshin in particular).

Also, where do you get the idea that there is Kido that can be used without saying a word? Feel free to correct me, but I don't ever recall anyone ever using Kido without at least saying the number and name.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 02:52 PM
Also, where do you get the idea that there is Kido that can be used without saying a word? Feel free to correct me, but I don't ever recall anyone ever using Kido without at least saying the number and name.

I provided an example of this in my earlier post that sent exacta into a rage, Kisuke did this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-502-14/bleach/chapter-48.html) in one of the early chapters

Takahashi
March 15, 2011, 03:10 PM
I provided an example of this in my earlier post that sent exacta into a rage, Kisuke did this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-502-14/bleach/chapter-48.html) in one of the early chapters

That's interesting, I don't recall that. However, it's never stated to be a binding spell. Rukia doesn't know what it is, and Urahara never says it's Kido either. All we know is that the effects were similar to that of Kido. Don't get me wrong, it's a good example, but I'm not sold on it from just a single instance that wasn't specifically stated.

Jackk
March 15, 2011, 03:19 PM
That's interesting, I don't recall that. However, it's never stated to be a binding spell. Rukia doesn't know what it is, and Urahara never says it's Kido either. All we know is that the effects were similar to that of Kido. Don't get me wrong, it's a good example, but I'm not sold on it from just a single instance that wasn't specifically stated.

Kubo made Rukia say those words though. It's obvious that it was a binding spell, and binding spells are kido based. Besides, what else could it have been? It was definitely kido...

Takahashi
March 15, 2011, 03:24 PM
Kubo made Rukia say those words though. It's obvious that it was a binding spell, and binding spells are kido based. Besides, what else could it have been? It was definitely a kido tech...

http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-7/bleach/chapter-302.html

Amor is comparable to Kido. Something being LIKE Kido doesn't automatically mean Kido. I'm not saying either way, as I obviously don't know, but just that I'm not convinced.

Actually.......Why was there a "was it Kido?" argument to begin with?

freshseth83
March 15, 2011, 03:38 PM
You've obviously never heard of silent kido...

...This isn't just an anecdotal fallacy. This is factually incorrect information.


Anecdotal fallacy


Inavlid Comparison


Non-sequiter



Conjecture.



Argument from ignorance.



'Proof by example



Factually incorrect information.



Anecdotal fallacy



Helping your opponent's argument



Red herring



Proof by example



Argument from ignorance
Factually incorrect



Begging the question
Conjecture



Conjecture



Anecdotal fallacy


Semantics



Concession



Argument from ignorance
Begging the question

Yeah your point is completely invalid because I can find logical fallacies in almost every sentence you wrote. Try again.

The horrible part is that I agree with your stance on Isshin winning, but your reasoning is simply horrid, which is why to actually stop people from avoiding voting for Isshin by assocation with you, I have to shut down your argument. Please, for the sake of potential Isshin voters, stop getting owned in debates.

blah blah, what's that post about? You added nothing to the discussion. All you did was put two words after each one of his lines and made it seem like you had him beat since his points were wrong. What points do you have to counter others arguments? To me it seems like all you're doing here is trying to refute something someone else says, but without any examples of such.

I agree that does it matter what kido Isshin used? If he used kido? It caught Aizen and pushed him back quite a ways. Urahara didn't do that, even with 90's level kido. Yeah it was a different Aizen, but the fact that Isshin caught Aizen off guard is still decent enough of a feat. Seeing as how Aizen was facing Isshin head on. These examples just show to me that Aizen is overrated without having the Hoguyoku or KS to his advantage. You see what a Captain level opponent can do to him? I still rate Isshin over Urahara, and I think the manga will show this. I know it's not been seen yet what all either of them can do. But this is Isshin Kurosaki. The fact that he's the main character's father is reason enough to believe he's damn strong. The GT he hit Chrysalis Aizen with was an one-shot KO by all means. And this was at most in Shikai.

Jackk
March 15, 2011, 03:42 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-7/bleach/chapter-302.html

Amor is comparable to Kido. Something being LIKE Kido doesn't automatically mean Kido. I'm not saying either way, as I obviously don't know, but just that I'm not convinced.

Actually.......Why was there a "was it Kido?" argument to begin with?

-But Rukia didn't say "This is something like kido!" ... she actually thought that that was a binding spell and she was just surprised with the ease with which Kisuke was able to use that on her. And again, Kubo was the one who made Rukia say that, thus the most logical thing to take out of that is that it was a kido binding spell without incantation or number/name being used. Heck Kisuke is a shinigami, if he's using a binding spell on you... why would you think that it would be anything else besides a kido binding spell? The guy is a kido user...

-It is being argued that the "finger flick" that Isshin used on Aizen initially was some sort of kido tech, likely hado #1.

As Buzz Killington pointed out:



That finger flick was Hado 1 Sho. Shunsui did the exact same thing here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-560-15/bleach/chapter-106.html). Unless you're ready to claim that Isshin has more power in 1 finger than Yamamoto does in his fist, then there's no reason to believe it wasn't Kido


It was Kido. You don't have to say an incantation or a word to use Kido, Urahara's done it before too (http://www.mangareader.net/94-502-14/bleach/chapter-48.html)

Like I said, if you're gonna say that was just the force from 1 of Isshins fingers sending Aizen flying, then Yamamoto possesses less force in his entire fist, seeing as it didn't send Aizen anywhere (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-8/bleach/chapter-394.html)

It's clearly obvious that was Kido. Just a very strong one because Isshin has alot of reiatsu to put behind it. Byakuya's Sho (http://www.mangareader.net/94-755-5/bleach/chapter-301.html) was similar to Shunsui's, although its safe to assume he wasn't putting full force into it

CeroOskuraz
March 15, 2011, 03:45 PM
If Isshin's finger flick was not Kido then there would be a case for every single minute movement that Isshin makes causing incredible collateral destruction, as well as people who are equal or comparable, or exceeding him in strength. Since that obviously doesn't happen with anyone until Aizen/Ichigo transcends it's obviously Hado 1.

Not even Yamamoto has that kind of physical power.

Takahashi
March 15, 2011, 03:49 PM
-But Rukia didn't say "This is something like kido!" ... she actually thought that that was a binding spell and she was just surprised with the ease with which Kisuke was able to use that on her. And again, Kubo was the one who made Rukia say that, thus the most logical thing to take out of that is that it was a kido binding spell without incantation or number/name being used. Heck Kisuke is a shinigami, if he's using a binding spell on you... why would you think that it would be anything else besides a kido binding spell? The guy is a kido user...

Like I said, I'm not sure. The issue here is that there's one, very, very early chapter example of it. If it was used more regularly, I'd buy it.

Byakuya and Ukitake have both called the name and number of that (#1?) weak Kido. I'd imagine that captain levels, and talented Kido users like Byakuya would be fully capable of doing so without saying it if that were true. But it seems like that isn't the case.


-It is being argued that the "finger flick" that Isshin used on Aizen initially was some sort of kido tech, likely hado #1.

Oh........Wait..........Does that matter? He still owned him and chucked him through several buildings. Kido tech or not, it's impressive.
[hr]

If Isshin's finger flick was not Kido then there would be a case for every single minute movement that Isshin makes causing incredible collateral destruction, as well as people who are equal or comparable, or exceeding him in strength. Since that obviously doesn't happen with anyone until Aizen/Ichigo transcends it's obviously Hado 1.

Not even Yamamoto has that kind of physical power.


Ahh, I see the issue now. I guess I'll just say it's Kido then, cause we don't need arguments like that...

freshseth83
March 15, 2011, 03:57 PM
It had to be some sort of thrust from him, so it should be considered kido, since he didn't touch him with it. Did Shunsui call out the kido he used against Sado? I seem to remember him touching him and sending chad flying. The manga doesn't show him crashing through buildings, but Shunsui had no use for that. He's a human afterall and was trying to dissuade him from fighting. Isshin doing something of the like to Aizen is different. Aizen is no a human and is very dangerous and can't be beaten in one strike. So who knows how much power was behind that 'blast'! Point is, he got Aizen with it. Then Aizen tried to use kido on Isshin, but it missed obviously.

Raizen
March 15, 2011, 04:40 PM
I feel like I am reading a novel. How about shortening it a bit. Sheeezzzz

Its funny that most of the argument for urahara comes from the "comparable" argument. His fans are so fixated on that statement that they can't accept the idea that aizen only stated that to mean that he has evolved so being compared to him as a shinigami is impossible... sigh

Urahara fans are becoming the uchihas fan of bleach... ful of ludicrous opinions :fail

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 04:55 PM
Its funny that most of the argument for urahara comes from the "comparable" argument. His fans are so fixated on that statement that they can't accept the idea that aizen only stated that to mean that he has evolved so being compared to him as a shinigami is impossible... sigh

Urahara fans are becoming the uchihas fan of bleach... ful of ludicrous opinions :fail

Except he said they were once equals in power, not dimensions (As in becoming more than a Shinigami)

Try a different route kiddo ;)

freshseth83
March 15, 2011, 05:22 PM
Once, that's the key word. When was the last time Aizen saw Urahara? He was a V/C and that was over 100 years ago. TBTP arc wasn't it? That's what I get when he says we were ONCE equals in power. When he was a V/C.

Raizen
March 15, 2011, 05:28 PM
Except he said they were once equals in power, not dimensions (As in becoming more than a Shinigami)

Try a different route kiddo ;)
He said they were no longer comparable. There were no mention of power.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 05:34 PM
Once, that's the key word. When was the last time Aizen saw Urahara? He was a V/C and that was over 100 years ago. TBTP arc wasn't it? That's what I get when he says we were ONCE equals in power. When he was a V/C.

Aizens saw Urahara after that (http://www.mangareader.net/94-51305-9/bleach/chapter-402.html), twice to be precise (http://www.mangareader.net/94-651-19/bleach/chapter-197.html)

Hystzen
March 15, 2011, 05:35 PM
Once, that's the key word. When was the last time Aizen saw Urahara? He was a V/C and that was over 100 years ago. TBTP arc wasn't it? That's what I get when he says we were ONCE equals in power. When he was a V/C.

he was in a VC position ..it was obvious he was so much stronger than a VC when he knocked away tessais kido without effort . he was still impressed by urahara..then again this is Aizen who loves to chat crap and mess with people so i dont buy the same power rant these guys keep bringing up which is pointless.

Buzz Killington
March 15, 2011, 05:35 PM
He said they were no longer comparable. There were no mention of power.

Oh really? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-52277-8/bleach/chapter-405.html) :eyeroll

Tsukisama
March 15, 2011, 08:13 PM
Urahara thinks of a plan for victory! He shall advance on into the Quarter-finals. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny