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igotthegoods
March 11, 2011, 11:45 PM
Ichigo vs. Yammy

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14508.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Ichigo

The strawberry blond protagonist with a surly attitude and strong sense of friendship, Ichigo is an interesting hybrid of human, shinigami, and hollow abilities. Having studied martials arts since a young age, he is quite skilled in unarmed combat. Since the start of the series, he has undergone several transformations and advancements in combat ability and skill in remarkably short periods of time to become one of the most formidable characters of the manga. This consistent honing of his skills is underscored by the abilities of his zanpakutō, Zangetsu. In both shikai and bankai, he can use the technique, Getsuga Tenshō, which condenses his immense spiritual energy into an energy slash. His bankai, Tensa Zangetsu, has the effect of compressing Ichigo's reiatsu, substantially enhancing his agility, power, and endurance. Ichigo's visored hollow powers also allow him various abilities, such as enhanced combat abilities and regenerative properties.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Yammy

Simultaneously the tenth (pre-release) and zeroth (post-release) Espada with a dim wit and savage temper, Yammy is the largest member of the Espada in terms of size and perhaps ego. Besides his immense strength, he is notable among Arrancar in that he commonly uses bala, can conserve spiritual power through inactivity, can increase his physique and strength by becoming enraged, and can use gonzui,a suction ability for absorbing the souls of the living. Upon resurrección of his zanpakutō, Ira, he transforms into a gargantuan, eight-legged behemoth with his abilities increasing in potency as he grows in size. His release increases as his rage grows until it reaches a certain level at which point he transforms again, becoming an even larger, two-legged creature and recovering completely any damage taken in the process.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Random101
March 18, 2011, 12:02 AM
Yammi. Even taking into account Ichigo being at half power by Unohana's statement, lack of mask time and a second form screw him the hell over still, and somehow he's slow enough to get bloody caught by him. Ichinator might take it... were it more prone to moving. I hold the same factor that knocked him out of the form here, he's getting blown the hell out of it by Yammi's cero to say the least. It's not hitting a moving target sure, but it's potent, and Ichinator's not prone to moving.

freshseth83
March 18, 2011, 12:18 AM
I feel Yammi would win, the strongest ichigo still wouldn't kill him in time. He'll just get bigger and stronger. And though Ichigo 'beat' Kenpachi (or fought to a draw) and 'won' his fight against Byakuya (broke Byakuya's blade), that's not to say he could beat them two together. And to me it looks as if that's what it took to defeat Yammi (in 2nd form).

ShootToKill
March 18, 2011, 12:20 AM
Mask Ichigo >> Pre release Yammy - what's to stop Ichigo just quickly putting on his mask and taking off Yammy's head before he releases? I guess the answer to that is that in the entire history of bleach no one has been able to prevent anyone else from releasing or going Bankai, few have even tried :amuse

Anyway, assuming we're playing by Bleach rules and Yammy does release, Ichigo will have some trouble, I guess Yammy isn't the Cero Espada for nothing. Masked Ichigo should be able to avoid R1 Yammy with ease, but as soon as the mask runs out and Ichigo gets tired, Yammy could catch him and do some serious damage. If Yammy goes R2 then it's probably game over for Ichigo, I doubt he could deal with that amount of power.

freshseth83
March 18, 2011, 12:27 AM
He took a GT to the neck, in R1 and pretty much shrugged it off. Maybe that wasn't as strong as Ichigo could be. But the only Ichigo that i see winning is full hollow Ichigo, in this tournament. I don't see that happening though. No 'Kurosaki kun' X (TIMES) 1000 from Orihime, no hollow coming out, at least in my opinion.

Tenacious Weezy
March 18, 2011, 12:58 AM
Mask Ichigo >> Pre release Yammy - what's to stop Ichigo just quickly putting on his mask and taking off Yammy's head before he releases? I guess the answer to that is that in the entire history of bleach no one has been able to prevent anyone else from releasing or going Bankai, few have even tried :amuse

Anyway, assuming we're playing by Bleach rules and Yammy does release, Ichigo will have some trouble, I guess Yammy isn't the Cero Espada for nothing. Masked Ichigo should be able to avoid R1 Yammy with ease, but as soon as the mask runs out and Ichigo gets tired, Yammy could catch him and do some serious damage. If Yammy goes R2 then it's probably game over for Ichigo, I doubt he could deal with that amount of power.

Since you bring up releasing in time I think that offers a fair alternative to how Ichigo could win. Similar to how there was a valid fight with Hitsugaya being able to beat Yammy on a circumstance, I think it's very possible (95%) that Ichigo in Bankai could kill Yammy before he even releases. It almost happened in the actual manga so I don't see why it's not possible in this scenario as well. However I think if they met in their strongest forms (Vizard Ichigo not hollow) R2 Yammy wins by enduring the strongest attacks. Still this will be tough to decide because we're judging a fluctuating main character to an either underrated or overrated TOP espada (also not a fan-favorite) that we never saw fight...

I think Stark vs Yammy would have been a lot more fun :(

Waking_Dreamer
March 18, 2011, 01:30 AM
Can VizIchigo be as strong as Bankai Byakuya and no-patch Kenpachi at the same time...?

If not (like based Yammy's previous round), he losses and

Yammy wins.

Takahashi
March 18, 2011, 01:37 AM
Ichigo needs to lose now. He should have lost in his fight with Stark easily.....

Ichigo with his mask can't handle #4, nor can he handle #1, or #0. Obviously the only saving grace for Ichigo is Ichigonator. Problem is, people seem to think it just jumps in and saves him no matter what. With something so situational, and obviously story driven, I find it hard to believe that anyone could justify it. Yammy crushes Ichigo.

Hystzen
March 18, 2011, 02:47 AM
Ichigo needs to lose now. He should have lost in his fight with Stark easily.....



seriously ichigo should lose because he was voted the win against starrk..come on

anyway

yammi doesn't get chance to release..it be a repeat of the arrival of yammi where his arm is cut off but no hollow interference so ichigo slices up released yammi before no chance to release easily and with ulqurrioa to protect yammi he is screwed.

Takahashi
March 18, 2011, 03:12 AM
seriously ichigo should lose because he was voted the win against starrk..come on

anyway

yammi doesn't get chance to release..it be a repeat of the arrival of yammi where his arm is cut off but no hollow interference so ichigo slices up released yammi before no chance to release easily and with ulqurrioa to protect yammi he is screwed.

I'm not voting for Yammy because Ichigo beat Stark. I think it was BS he even made it this far, and Yammy should easily crush him either way.

In his fight with Yammy, he cut him up and Yammy was about to draw his sword and probably release, I'm sure he'd have the time.

freshseth83
March 18, 2011, 03:49 AM
I dont think it works that easy either. When Ichigo goes to 'slice up' unreleased Yammi, he'll just piss him off much the way Ishida did. Then he'll come back all healed up and even bigger. Then he'll release and get bigger still, plus stronger. Ichigo needs a prayer to beat Yammi. He may be Kenpachi's equivalent of an Espada, except x2, IMO.

SaintSheik
March 18, 2011, 05:51 AM
Just like with Ulquiorra, we don't know the power gap between Yammy's releases. From what we've seen, Yammy was just a bigger version of himself with more power to back up his attacks.

He didn't exactly become a genius through his release either; he had legs and fingers flying all over the place and this is supposedly the most powerful Espada, people. He arguably became stupider when he released.

The Masked Ichigo that fought Ulquiorra should have enough power and, what was that thing Ichigo was good for, speed to best Yammy. Plus, the HM Hollow Ichigo is always a factor which ends the fight from there. Oh, and Ichigo wins.

Waking_Dreamer
March 18, 2011, 06:19 AM
^ Did you vote for Hitsugaya or Yammy in the previous round?

The majority of the voters in this forum thought it was a stretch to have Hitsugaya outsmart Yammy and not have have his head sliced off, or his brain skewered before yammy could even touch him.

Stating as the complete argument that Hitsugaya had to face Yammy R2 and had to lose because Hitsugaya could never be more effective than Bankai Byakuya and patch-less Kenpachi together...

Idk how much better VizIchigo is compared to Bya and Ken together...?

CeroOskuraz
March 18, 2011, 08:29 AM
Have you seen Visored Ichigo with half his Reiatsu casually overpowering Yammy with a Getsuga Tenshou?

Yammy wouldn't last a second; he simply dies.

Darkp
March 18, 2011, 09:04 AM
Have you seen Visored Ichigo with half his Reiatsu casually overpowering Yammy with a Getsuga Tenshou?

Yammy wouldn't last a second; he simply dies.

Yea we did see that getsuga tenshou only nick Yamizor res 1 .

Yammy could react shunpo of ichigo's so his reflexses is not that bad either .

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/378/15/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/378/16/

I would give this one 2 yammy . Cause strongest technique with half reiatsu of ichigo, which hit a vital area yammizor's neck , just nick yammy . Even he did have full reiatsu now , I dont think it would be enough to instant kill yammy res 1 and 2 res of yammy could seal the deal .

CeroOskuraz
March 18, 2011, 09:07 AM
Yes, but Ichigo only had half his power at the time.

And then you have him actually slamming Yammy into the ground.

Tenacious Weezy
March 18, 2011, 09:13 AM
I'm not leaning any which way really but If Yammy releases at all Ichigo is done. If Ichigo can get to him when he's 10, Ichigo wins. I will never consider HOLLOW Ichigo a factor because IMO he's a seperate entity with low chance of appearing in any scenario without "nakama" around.

tousendrinksbleach
March 18, 2011, 10:29 AM
o wait
ichigo did beat byakuya in ss arc with no mask , ichigo did beat kenpachi in ss with not even a proper shikai
ichigo has more chance here to win than agaisnt starkk (this is a nobrainer fight..., at least starkk is very intelligent)


now , if ichigonator is released , i think one cero will make a cero-like hole in yammy's fat head ...



I'm not voting for Yammy because Ichigo beat Stark. I think it was BS he even made it this far, and Yammy should easily crush him either way.

In his fight with Yammy, he cut him up and Yammy was about to draw his sword and probably release, I'm sure he'd have the time.

you cant change people minds .... not after ichigo wiped the ground with hogyokuaizen ...
besides, it is his righteful to stand as a winner of the tournament by one shoting each and every oponenet, he is just ultra handicaped by mods (ofc it would mean sh*t if ichigo could fight with his true strengh ...)

kamakazi_1996
March 18, 2011, 11:32 AM
i dont understand why everyone is thinking yammy could wipe the floor with ichigo in seconds becuase ichigo IMO could pwn yammy

the only reason he only grazed his with his getsuga tensho was because he had less than half of his reiatsu also his friends were all around him, he was obviously holding back, he always holds back his powers when his friends are around e.g. ulquiorra fight Orihime was around

Also ichigo was able to beat byakuya in his senkei form with only his bankai and he was able to draw with kenpachi with only his shikai, and they beat the crap outta yammi like it was nothing even kenpachi said it was a waste of time.

Ichigo was able to cut off yammi's arm in his bankai in seconds, imagine what he could do if he puts on his mask, he would be able to cut off yammi's fat head before he even releases and even if he does ichigo could still take him on, he did say he was espada '0' but maybe thats all he is zero 'nothing' because i think some of the other espadas could take him down.

Ichinator wont be needed in this fight, if he does do turn, he would blast off his head with one cero

exacta
March 18, 2011, 11:34 AM
If Ichigo's mask didn't break, he could've fought on par with Yammi for awhile at least. His GT may have only been able to inflict a minjor injury due to Yammi's hierro, but he was still able to overpower Yammi and knock him down, and he was able to block his Bala's once he got focused. I think Ichigo could win this with some time and perserverance. Yammi will have trouble trying to hit Ichigo if he shunpo's around all over this place. As long as Ichigo keeps his head on straight he should do well...

We don't know how powerful Yammi R2 was, we didn't even see him fight. Are we letting Yammi use R2?

tousendrinksbleach
March 18, 2011, 11:53 AM
If Ichigo's mask didn't break, he could've fought on par with Yammi for awhile at least. His GT may have only been able to inflict a minjor injury due to Yammi's hierro, but he was still able to overpower Yammi and knock him down, and he was able to block his Bala's once he got focused. I think Ichigo could win this with some time and perserverance. Yammi will have trouble trying to hit Ichigo if he shunpo's around all over this place. As long as Ichigo keeps his head on straight he should do well...

We don't know how powerful Yammi R2 was, we didn't even see him fight. Are we letting Yammi use R2?

exactly the point ... yammy in r2 didnt even budge, he didnt fire any ceros, use any abilities...
all what he has shown is resilience , he will only be able to hit ichigo if ichigo stands still or comes to close to him

ShootToKill
March 18, 2011, 02:07 PM
I think if Yammy was restricted to R1 Ichigo might have a shot, Yammy was incredibly slow and still just as dumb, so if Ichigo used his A Game he might win. After all, Yammy is Espada 0 in terms of Reiatsu - he's a hell of a lot slower and dumber than Starrk, with not nearly as many techniques - he has his fists, and he has a huge cero, both of which I believe Ichigo could dodge. However, I would imagine Ichigo slicing off a couple of Yammy's legs with Hollowfied GT's, infuriating him and causing Yammy to go into R2, where I don't believe any of Ichigo's attacks could hurt him. So as I said before, if Ichigo can somehow attack Yammy prior to R1, it would be his best bet. I also think Ichigo should have lost to Starrk without question, but I'm not going to count him out just because of this :)

El Samurai Guapo
March 18, 2011, 02:26 PM
Ichigo is definitely capable of winning, if we're talking about the pre-Ulquiorra fight Ichigo that is. Problem is he's almost as dumb as Yammi, and unlikely to deliver a fatal blow before Yammi can build his anger and grow big enough to actually pose a threat to anyone.

ninjabot
March 18, 2011, 02:27 PM
See how the match resulted in far more logical debate once fanbase was taken out of it? Yammi has absolutely zero fans. And Ichigo isn't particularly loved by most of us on this forum. That leaves nothing to fight for and far more likelihood of a compromise when it comes to an agreement.

I guarantee this thread won't last half as long as the Hitsugaya vs. Yammi one.

On topic though: Yammi wins by way of outlasting Ichigo. Whatever doesn't finish him off during release will only push him to grow even more until he's tough enough to endure Ichigo's blows without stopping his own assault, tanking blows inorder to grab hold of him before... I dunno. Biting his head off or something.

freshseth83
March 18, 2011, 02:46 PM
Yammy beat Hitsugaya last round, so the claim of 'no fans' has probably no basis here. Hitsugaya has fans wherever you turn. More so than almost any character. Maybe not this site, but plenty of others. So, the fact that Yammy STILL got more votes, says something. But, with Hitsugaya I felt he could FREEZE Yammy before he even tried to release into his super huge stages. Ichigo doesn't have that ability. He's relatively weak. And unless you think Ichigo won by merit over Byakuya and Kenpachi back in SS, he's nothing compared to those two TOGETHER, whom TOGETHER beat Yammi. Just read chapter 380. That's all you need to see to realize what Ichigo is up against. His own words were Ulquiorra, Grimmjow, Nnoitra- were all trash compared to him. You seen Byakuya and Kenpachi after they fought him. "Badly injured" was the term used to describe their condition. One guy is not going to do what two of the strongest current captains had a hard time doing.

ninjabot
March 18, 2011, 03:01 PM
Oh no, I'm not talking about who wins the fight, I'm talking about how long it takes to accept who wins and stop arguing.

Because there's no fanbase powering these two debates, this thread shouldn't last too long. A character can be beloved and still lose, but it wouldn't be until after their fanbase tried to go that extra distance.

ShootToKill
March 18, 2011, 03:05 PM
Well, I would still say Ichigo has more of a chance against Yammy than Ulquiorra did against Aizen, and that still kept going for 116 posts.

Deicide
March 18, 2011, 03:25 PM
Yammy takes this, Ichigo doesn't have the firepower to take him down.

freshseth83
March 18, 2011, 03:26 PM
I just think people hype Aizen up to be some god, when in reality he was fighting half dead opponents in FKT, he used KS against Shinji. Then had KS active the whole time against the captains. That was my gripe with people saying he'll one-shot or stomp Ulquiorra. Not without KS.

Here I donno how the voting will turn out. Ichigo has a good sized following. But if any logic prevails, his run will end here.

Buzz Killington
March 18, 2011, 03:41 PM
I'm a Yammy fan, and I could show you a TON of other Yammy fans too. He isn't without fans

Thing is, I'm not biased enough to vote based on such a reason. I do believe Ichigo wins this, if it is the latest version of Ichigo Pre-Dangai training (Fully Healed FKT Ichigo, Twice the reiatsu of a Captain)

Yammy does have the 2nd strongest Hierro in the Espada, however, Ichigo was capable of cutting him with his Getsuga when he was only at half strength, so he isn't immune to Ichigo damaging him

If Ichigo can find an opening, I'd say he's more than capable of ending this fight

ShootToKill
March 18, 2011, 03:45 PM
I'm a Yammy fan, and I could show you a TON of other Yammy fans too. He isn't without fans

Thing is, I'm not biased enough to vote based on such a reason. I do believe Ichigo wins this, if it is the latest version of Ichigo Pre-Dangai training (Fully Healed FKT Ichigo, Twice the reiatsu of a Captain)

Yammy does have the 2nd strongest Hierro in the Espada, however, Ichigo was capable of cutting him with his Getsuga when he was only at half strength, so he isn't immune to Ichigo damaging him

If Ichigo can find an opening, I'd say he's more than capable of ending this fight
Just out of interest, where do you get twice the Reiatsu of a Captain from? (I'm not denying you're right, I just don't know when it was mentioned)

Buzz Killington
March 18, 2011, 03:52 PM
Just out of interest, where do you get twice the Reiatsu of a Captain from? (I'm not denying you're right, I just don't know when it was mentioned)

From when they were on their way to Karakura, just click here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-4/bleach/chapter-382.html) and here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-6/bleach/chapter-382.html), and Unohana recovers it fully (http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-7/bleach/chapter-382.html)

ShootToKill
March 18, 2011, 03:59 PM
Ah yes I remember now, thanks. However, Reiatsu seems to vary quite a lot amongst the Captains. I doubt Ichigo's Reiatsu is say... twice Byakuya's or Kenpachi's (a captain known for his immense Reiatsu).

Random101
March 18, 2011, 04:11 PM
Kenpachi literally has bankai level reiatsu. Which is insane. Ichigo did indeed edge ahead of him in their fight though, but for some asinine reason he's absolutely garbage at utilizing it. See his GT on Yammi. I don't care if he was half strength, boosted by both mask and his pressure compressing bankai he should be far above goddamn patched Kenpachi. And he barely knicks the dude, while Kenpachi Casually swipes off entire appendages. What the hell Kubo?!

Buzz Killington
March 18, 2011, 04:26 PM
Well, you have to remember Kenpachi had just got through fighting the Espada with the toughest hierro, so Yammy, having 2nd best, wouldn't be much of a problem. If you want to see how tough Yammy's hierro is, take a look at what Senbonzakura did to his face (http://www.mangareader.net/94-40673-3/bleach/chapter-383.html) as compared to what Kenpachi did to his jaw/chin area

Ichigo's cutting power has never been that great (http://www.mangareader.net/94-795-13/bleach/chapter-341.html), it obviously improved given how he was able to do more to Yammy (http://www.mangareader.net/94-36557-10/bleach/chapter-379.html) at Half Power, so I'd say at Full Power if he can find an opening he should be able to inflict heavy damage (http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-8/bleach/chapter-396.html) or take Yammy down with a Getsuga like this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-6/bleach/chapter-396.html)

If it doesn't take him down (Probably won't), then he can rinse and repeat

Random101
March 18, 2011, 04:31 PM
Ichigo's signature used to be cutting through his enemies swords. And those are literally the hardest thing in this manga. I mean his cutting strength was amazing back in the SS arc. Now it's complete trash, he's barely getting through even sealed espada with far less impressive Hierro's without pulling an uber form out of his ass.

Buzz Killington
March 18, 2011, 04:56 PM
Well he could do some damage when he donned his mask (http://www.mangareader.net/94-798-12/bleach/chapter-344.html) to sealed Ulq, but yeah...

Just not quite Kenpachi level

As for SS, yeah, Ichigo IMO was at his strongest point (Pre-FKT) in SS Arc, the HM Arc was him re-accessing this power, and it culminated with him reaching a new plateau (http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-19/bleach/chapter-396.html) of power (http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-2/bleach/chapter-351.html) before going all haxx mode (http://www.mangareader.net/94-56926-2/bleach/chapter-417.html), he's one inconsistent dude

CeroOskuraz
March 18, 2011, 05:20 PM
As for SS, yeah, Ichigo IMO was at his strongest point (Pre-FKT) in SS Arc, the HM Arc was him re-accessing this power, and it culminated with him reaching a new plateau (http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-19/bleach/chapter-396.html) of power (http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-2/bleach/chapter-351.html) before going all haxx mode (http://www.mangareader.net/94-56926-2/bleach/chapter-417.html), he's one inconsistent dude

I disagree with this, but I don't want to bring up the first part because of the blatant Espada/Captain hype and brutal Ad Nauseum debate this is going to cause.

But I heard you suggested that he reached a plateau of power? Definitely not true ;)

TheChosenOne
March 18, 2011, 06:15 PM
Kinda confused about the restrictions for the fight. Which form of Ichigo appears in this fight against Yammy ? Is it solely his Mask Forms or can we consider his Hollow Forms as well ? :confused

P.S. Don't understand why the OP (Mods) don't state out the restrictions in the post. :)

Tonix
March 18, 2011, 06:23 PM
Ichigo will need his mask to actually do any real damage to Yammy, and as shown in his short bought with Yammy, and his fight with Gin, his mask doesn't last very long at all. So I think Yammy takes this, Ichigo should have never beaten Starrk anyway.

Tsukisama
March 18, 2011, 08:02 PM
Kinda confused about the restrictions for the fight. Which form of Ichigo appears in this fight against Yammy ? Is it solely his Mask Forms or can we consider his Hollow Forms as well ? :confused

P.S. Don't understand why the OP (Mods) don't state out the restrictions in the post. :)

Ichigo has access to whatever he has before he entered his training session with his father in the Dangai. This means he can use his mask and his hollow. (In regards to his hollow, as long as you can explain a situation in which his hollow form would take him over, it is fair game.)

We don't place these individual character restrictions in the opening of each thread. They are mentioned in the Tournament Rules thread under Character Specific Rules.

Jorge D. Dragon
March 19, 2011, 06:33 AM
There are different options in this fight. Actually if Ichigo manages yto take down Yammy quickly before he releases he can easily win this fight. In his Bankai he is damn fast. He was even faster than Byakuya and Ichigo really was fast enough to slice Yammi's hand and if we asume that all the fights in this Tournament people start at their full resolve, hence we can asume that Ichi will try to end this fight quickly.

Also it really is strange for me that people bring Ichi in the fight against Ulquiorra or even before, when Orihime was kidnapped by Starrk. It wasn't the same Ichi that fought Yammi! Ichi's mask changed and became stronger, also he gained twice upgrade in Reiatsu after the fight with Ulquiorra. When he was fighting Yammi he was holding back, becuse Rukia was close and also he had less than a half of his Reiatsu and he wasn't acustomed to his new mask, but we asume that it is FKT Ichigo who will fight Yammi and he got pretty well with his mask to actually cut Aizen really great. I'd say without Hougioku Aizen might have lost after such a wound.
So it isn't that obvious who will win this fight if Ichi is full resolved and without manga's drama. I actually see |Ichigo having problems with Yammy in R2, but still Ichi really might have taken Yammy while he is in sealed form and in his sealed for he is the weakest among the Espada.

Henry J. Gloval
March 19, 2011, 07:43 AM
Since Ichigo has access to his full Hollow form, Yami doesn't stand a chance.
In the worst case scenario, Yammi releases and weakens/wounds/ Ichigo like R2 Ulq did. But then, since Ichigo is so weak Hollow takes over in the form of Ichigonataor and just stomps Yammi. Ichigo needs not to have a hole in his chest for his hollow to take over, evidenced in the Byakuya fight, Vaizard training, and by the fact that while in Dangai, Hollow Ichigo had only the Ichigonator mask, no hole in his chest. Face it, Hichigo takes over in order to save Ichigo, for they are the same. Ichigo dies, he dies too. The reason why Ichigonator had a hole is that Ulq made it. Why would Hichigo when taking over him manifest something he himself does not possess? So, Ichigo cannot lose this fight, or any other, if his final hollow form, known as Ichigonator is not defeated by his opponent. Which makes him a formidable challenge, does it not? You must do away with shikai, bankai and mask Ichigo, but even if you blow a hole though him, cut his arm off, break his leg, the real badass Hollow version of him will rise and pwn you. And that is a fact.
The only question is, can Ichigo and Ichigonator be considered one and the same? If Ulq did not break his horns and mask, Ichigonator would have never reverted to Ichigo probably. It is one thing for Ichigo to be able to crack his mask during Byakuya fight, but for him to find enough power to suppress evolved Hichigo is unlikely, evidenced by his performance in the Dangai training, when he was getting his ass kicked.
Long story short, Ichigo wins even if Yammi somehow beats his bankai plus mask form.

LucyBenard
March 19, 2011, 02:12 PM
Please do not turn this battle into an emotional debate, example: "Ichigo needs to lose here because he should not have won the last round".

Forget what had happened. This is a new round. Yammy vs. Ichigo.

As for my prediction:

Ichigo is too fast for the likes of Yammy, hence, Ichigo will just slice and dice his legs/arms, etc. An injured sealed Kenpachi was able to do so without any effort.

freshseth83
March 19, 2011, 07:12 PM
If we go by that, Yoruichi should have been too fast for Yammy, yet she hurt herself. Then Ichigo after being upgraded with a new mask, sliced Yammy's neck and left a 'nick'. Ishida should have wasted Yammi if we go by the logic that is stated here. But that didn't happen either. He wasn't released then was he? Not only that but he just got pissed off. When he DID release, in only his FIRST STAGE yet he still claimed that he was stronger than any of the espada that Ichigo had faced. Not only did Ichigo pretty much get wasted, but so did Ishida, Chad and Rukia. How is Ichigo going to win without a prayer? That full hollow form of Ichigo to me was a one-off. I think it was mostly Orihime that brought him out. After all it was "protect her, protect her, protect her"; wasn't it?

kamakazi_1996
March 19, 2011, 09:21 PM
if what yammy said was true, then wouldn't that mean that he is stronger than stark barragan or even harribel i would go as far as to say yammy could easily lose to ulquiorra r2.

Waking_Dreamer
March 19, 2011, 10:19 PM
if what yammy said was true, then wouldn't that mean that he is stronger than stark barragan or even harribel i would go as far as to say yammy could easily lose to ulquiorra r2.

IIRC when Ulquiorra R2 died at the hands of Hollow Ichigo, Yammy felt his rieatsu disappear he said along the lines of, fool I was going to help you finish off Ichigo. So Im pretty sure Yammy knows Ulquiorras full power and still offered his power to help him kill Ichigo.

Either way its CANON that YammyR1 does have more rieatsu than Espada #4-#1.

LucyBenard
March 19, 2011, 11:31 PM
If we go by that, Yoruichi should have been too fast for Yammy, yet she hurt herself. Then Ichigo after being upgraded with a new mask, sliced Yammy's neck and left a 'nick'. Ishida should have wasted Yammi if we go by the logic that is stated here. But that didn't happen either. He wasn't released then was he? Not only that but he just got pissed off. When he DID release, in only his FIRST STAGE yet he still claimed that he was stronger than any of the espada that Ichigo had faced. Not only did Ichigo pretty much get wasted, but so did Ishida, Chad and Rukia. How is Ichigo going to win without a prayer? That full hollow form of Ichigo to me was a one-off. I think it was mostly Orihime that brought him out. After all it was "protect her, protect her, protect her"; wasn't it?

Are we even reading the same manga here? Yoruichi Shihōin is indeed too fast for Yammy, but remember, she hit Yammy willingly bare handed.

So three points to consider here:

1) If Yammy wanted to hit Yoruichi, he could not have done so
2) If Yoruichi wanted to hit Yammy, she could have done so at will
3) If Yoruichi had a sword, she would not have been injured, as her hands were hurt punching the iron-strong-hierro of the Espada

The rest of your argument is a fallacy since the logic that you've based it off is flawed, as indicated above.
[hr]


Either way its CANON that YammyR1 does have more rieatsu than Espada #4-#1.

Reiatsu is not everything. Yammy is just to awfully slow. A sealed half-dead Kenpachi was slicing and dicing the former's limbs without any effort.

Waking_Dreamer
March 20, 2011, 12:43 AM
Reiatsu is not everything. Yammy is just to awfully slow. A sealed half-dead Kenpachi was slicing and dicing the former's limbs without any effort.

I think they were completely healed before confronting Yammy.

Its interesting though many were adamant that Yammy did inflict the wounds on Byakuya and Kenpachi. The former being a shunpo master and a user of the Cicada technique.

Buzz Killington
March 20, 2011, 06:38 AM
Kenny and Byakuya were healed before confronting Yammy.

Also, why all the doubt about Yammy being the most powerful Espada? He definitely is, even in R1. Does that mean he can defeat everyone below him? No it doesn't, because unlike them, Yammy's far less combat effective.

Slow, Dumb and doesn't have any special ability aside from basic attacks. He's pretty generic in that sense. Reiatsu-wise he's the most powerful Espada, but as far as who's the overall strongest (Including combat effectiveness), I'm gonna go with Starrk

Henry J. Gloval
March 20, 2011, 07:41 AM
As I previously posted, eudon if Yami lives long enough in a fight with Ichigo to release, he should not be able to best Ichigo bankai and new mask fully healed from pre Dangai period when he cut Aizen with GT. Even if he somehow does, and beats Ichigo to the brink of death, Ichigonator will take over and roast him. I addresed my point on the previous page iirc.
Fact is, to beat Ichigo you must beat his full hollow form, that has evolved in his fight with Ulq.

CeroOskuraz
March 20, 2011, 07:49 AM
I know I've been advocating forever that Stark beats Ulquiorra in the sense that he's simply more combat effective, but as for who's the stronger between the two I have to go with Ulquiorra once he masters Lanza.

As for this match up Yammy seems to have more Reiatsu released than any Espada, second release or otherwise. However, Kenpachi clearly showed that Yammy can't use that Reiatsu very well by fodderizing him to less than fifth Espada level in R1.

FKT level Ichigo would dominate R1 Yammy. He may have trouble against R2 Yammy given that no feats were displayed but Byakuya and Kenpachi came out in bad shape with Kenpachi's eyepatch missing. In the slight case that Ichigo loses to either form of Yammy, Ichigo's hollow form would slice and dice him up.

On the basis of this, it's not that Yammy would lose, but more of Yammy can't win.

Waking_Dreamer
March 20, 2011, 08:13 AM
^ That depends if HollowIchigo can come out or not.

Ichigo DOESNT NEED to win in this battle - thats the biggest difference here compared to every other battle we have seen him in.

Many people say HollowIchigo coming out is very circumstantial at best: "kurosaki-kun! kurosaki-kun!" "kurosaki-kun"

If thats whats needed to beat YammyR2...then his victory is not a sure thing at all...

CeroOskuraz
March 20, 2011, 08:18 AM
Because it was pretty obvious that Yammy R1 was incapable of damaging half-strength unmasked Bankai Ichigo. Yammy R2 failed to exhibit out the destructive capacity to put down, or even come close to killing, Byakuya or Kenpachi.

So it's pretty clear that Ichigo's not going down to one, two, or three attacks, unlike in the battle with Ulquiorra where he was one-shotted, battered 'round for a bit, and then killed instantly. Yammy can't do anything like that given that even his Cero Oscuras was intercepted by an unmasked GT.

If Ichigo even comes close to losing or running out of the endurance his hollow will come out to save like it always does. The form it takes doesn't matter either.

But of course, since there are no restrictions we could just as easily assume that it's Dangai Ichigo, meaning he would one-shot Yammy.

Snake_Cowboy
March 20, 2011, 08:55 AM
As I didn't believe that Ichigo would stand a chance against Stark, you can probably guess my stance on this match. Yammy should take this one too.

Stark is, in my opinion, the best Espada overall, both in skill and the fact that he doesn't have to save up his energy to access his true power the way Yammy obviously does. However, in his zero-state, Yammy really does seem like the most powerful Espada to me: he may be an idiot with no truly remarkable abilities, but he's just such a gigantic mass, with so much sheer strength, that there are very few captain-class fighters that can handle this guy on their own. I've always seen him as sort of a Godzilla among Arrancar. It took Byakuya and Kenpachi (certainly not the weakest captains in my eyes) together to take him down: we know Byakuya was using Senbonzakura Kageyoshi and we know that Kenpachi was without an eye-patch when he came back. We also know they were pretty heavily injured and that it took them until after the fight with Aizen was finished until they came back, which means their fight with Yammy took up quite a lot of time. Those are clear hints to his strength.

Ichigo, on the other hand, got his ass handed to him completely by the number 4, even before Ulquiorra activated his Segunda Etapa. Ichigo may have received a boost in the power of his mask afterwards, but it came at the price of the length of time he could wear and how quickly he could activate it again afterwards. A lot of people bring up the whole "twice captain-class reiatsu"-thing as mentioned by Unohana, but I've never interpreted that as Ichigo suddenly receiving a gigantic boost in power after his Hollow took control: we've known from the very beginning of the series that Ichigo has had an insane amount of reiryoku - it's just that he's never been good at controlling it, of being capable of accessing all that power willingly. With all of Ichigo's various power-ups (shikai, Bankai, Hollow mask), he's just gotten better at drawing out more power on a regular basis. If you consider that point of view, many inconsistencies with Ichigo's power make a lot more sense. Similarly, him being at 50% against Yammy doesn't equate that his Getsuga as it was back then will be twice as strong at full capacity: I've always interpreted reiryoku as being how much energy you have left; Ichigo was riding on a half-full tank. With a full tank, he can fire more Getsugas before he runs out, but it doesn't mean they get stronger.

If we consider all that, then honestly, I think this match will play out much like Ichigo's match against Yammy in the manga, even with him at full strength and without any resolve issues.

True, if Ichigo goes for the kill immediately, before Yammy releases, Yammy is dead meat. With only his Bankai, I suspect Ichigo is more than capable of killing him in his regular form. However, Ichigo's personality has to be taken into account here: he's usually quite honorable towards his opponents, as evidenced as when he let Byakuya live despite putting his sword to his throat. In his first fight with Yammy, Ichigo was acting uncharacteristically ruthless, undoubtedly out of the fact that Yammy had just harmed Tatsuki and Chad. So I don't think a quick kill is going to happen here.

The fight will start with Ichigo going Bankai and kicking Yammy's ass. Ichigo will be too fast and too strong; even if he doesn't take an arm off immediately, a few slashes or a Getsuga will cause some serious damage and will be more than enough to convince Yammy to release. Once he does, though, Ichigo won't last. He'll be a difficult target to hit, but similarly, Ichigo will have to play it carefully and watch himself: if Yammy delivers a direct punch or catches him, Ichigo will be in for a world of hurt. Ichigo might be able to chop off some limbs, but he'll be forced to activate his mask eventually. He'll try the same thing he did in the manga: use a Getsuga to try and slash Yammy and knock him to the ground, only for Yammy to come back up. With a lot of effort, Ichigo will keep hacking away at him and appear to have brough him down - only for Yammy to have become angry enough to reach his second form.

By then, Ichigo's mask will have definitely disappeared, whereas Yammy will have become even stronger, bigger and have recovered from all his injuries. Ichigo will try to evade him and he'll succeed for a while, but his moves will barely affect Yammy. Eventually, Yammy will wear him down and crush Ichigo. If he fires a Cero to finish him off, then there will be nothing left of Ichigo for his Hollow to recover.

Yammy wins.


But of course, since there are no restrictions we could just as easily assume that it's Dangai Ichigo, meaning he would one-shot Yammy.

Dangai Ichigo is excluded from the tournament.

Henry J. Gloval
March 20, 2011, 10:54 AM
Snake cowboy, Hichigo would certainly take over before Ichigo is dead. Just like he did every time before. He will do everything in his power to survive, self preservation mean anything to you? And I see no way that Yammi beats Ichigonator. Plus the fight scenario you just posted could fail. What if Ichigo goes in for the final blow right away, like vs Aizen, when he sneak attacked him and almost cleaved him in half? He could easily one shot Yami before he releases. And if I recall, Yami's release is Ira (Rage). How enraged could he be of Ichigo in order to release?
[hr]
The tournament implies that they all start motivated to win, no holding back. And bankai Ichigo would have easily killed Yammi when they met after cutting his arm off, if his hollow didnt mess him up. It is safe to say motivated bankai Ichigo would OHKO unreleased Yammi.
You already voted, as I have, so this may be for fun only discussion. Still, nice to hear your thoughts on the fight. :)

kkck
March 20, 2011, 11:13 AM
I think hollow ichigo would ultimately win this one... Ulquiorra was extraordinarily fast at the very least and hollow ichigo was still basically able to blits him. I also don't think hollow ichigo would have trouble slicing through yami's hierro. Overall, I think hollow ichigo simply has more raw power than yammi....

Snake_Cowboy
March 20, 2011, 11:57 AM
Snake cowboy, Hichigo would certainly take over before Ichigo is dead. Just like he did every time before. He will do everything in his power to survive, self preservation mean anything to you? And I see no way that Yammi beats Ichigonator.

You make some fair points.

The main problem I have with Ichigonator/Hollow Ichigo is that him turning up is too situational. Where was his Hollow when Ulquiorra killed Ichigo the first time? Where was his Hollow when Grimmjow and Nnoitra had beaten the crap out of him and Tesla was on the verge of pulverising his entire body? While I agree that yes, his Hollow usually shows up whenever Ichigo is in mortal danger out of self-preservation, it's no real guarantee. Kubo has him show up whenever the story calls for it, not out of consistency. That's why I would've preferred if his super-Hollow form was excluded from the tournament and we'd really only look at Ichigo's own regular performance, when he is himself and in full control of his actions, to decide a match, but I'm not going to complain.

More importantly, though, Hollow Ichigo really doesn't show up unless Ichigo is in an atrocious condition. Like when Ulquiorra had blown a hole through his chest or when Ichigo was unable to move because he couldn't handle his own Bankai's power against Byakuya. So again, I present the scenario, what if Yammy beats him into a pulp (but not enough for his Hollow to appear) and then uses a Cero to finish him off? A Cero of that size would vaporise Ichigo, leaving nothing for his Hollow to save. Am I to believe his Hollow would ceize control before the Cero hit? Would it be quick enough to do so? I hope you understand my point why I have such difficulty factoring Ichigo's Hollow into this fight.


Plus the fight scenario you just posted could fail. What if Ichigo goes in for the final blow right away, like vs Aizen, when he sneak attacked him and almost cleaved him in half? He could easily one shot Yami before he releases. And if I recall, Yami's release is Ira (Rage). How enraged could he be of Ichigo in order to release?

The tournament implies that they all start motivated to win, no holding back. And bankai Ichigo would have easily killed Yammi when they met after cutting his arm off, if his hollow didnt mess him up. It is safe to say motivated bankai Ichigo would OHKO unreleased Yammi.
You already voted, as I have, so this may be for fun only discussion. Still, nice to hear your thoughts on the fight. :)

Aizen was a special case. Does standing around, looking for an opening, for using one shot to decide the whole fight before it starts, seems like Ichigo's regular modus operandi to you? No. Because it's not. Ichigo fights the way he wants to, unless there's a clear need to do otherwise, which there was in this case: Unohana had clearly instructed him on his value, because he was the only captain-class fighter that had not been exposed to Kyouka Suigetsu yet. She stressed him on how critically important it was for him not to witness Aizen's shikai. This, plus the fact that Aizen completely trashed Ichigo back on Soukyoku Hill, made Ichigo opt for the best and logical course of action: not fight Aizen regularly, but try to strike at the right moment and kill him in one shot. Because if that one shot failed, Ichigo knew he was screwed, because he recognised from the beginning that Aizen was far more powerful than him.

This fight with Yammy will be an entirely different scenario. The tournament is designed to be as neutral as possible. Ichigo will not know anything about Yammy, especially not that he's the zero Espada (rather than #10) and try to kick his ass the usual way. I acknowledge that with his Bankai, Ichigo will clearly overpower Yammy, but kill him before he even has the chance to release? Even if he's motivated to win, that doesn't sound much like Ichigo to me. He wanted to beat Grimmjow and Ulquiorra too and he gave them plenty of chance to release, not try to prevent it.

Finally, Yammy does not need rage in order to release his zanpakutou: he only needs to store up his energy to a certain amount and release to become the zero Espada (which he will have in this fight). Yes, his zanpakutou is named Ira, but it only refers to the fact that Yammy grows stronger after his release the angrier he gets, as what happened in his fight with Byakuya and Kenpachi.

As you said, the discussion is a little pointless since we already voted, but still, I hope this makes my reasoning for this fight clearer. :)

Henry J. Gloval
March 20, 2011, 01:10 PM
Thank you for the reply, Snake Cowboy. :)
For your first point about Hichigo not taking over, for a cero would vaporise Ichigo beyond repair, I find it a bit weird. Have we ever seen anyone beaten by a cero, if so, someone captain level, as powerfull as Ichigo, or their body being damaged beyond repair? I sure haven't. Maybe I just forgot, I dont know. And the whole argument about the cero vaporising Ichigo is a bit dubious, dont you think? Going by what you said, Yammi would beat Ichigo, then come up to him and unleash a cero to make sure Ichigonator does not appear? Why would he do that, if he knows nothing about it? He never did it before, even after punching someone he considered them beaten and shifted his attention to other targets. See his fight with Loly, Ken.
As for your second point, that Yammy will release for sure, I can say pretty much the same thing you said about cero stopping Ichigo from transforming. Mine would even sound more probable, for Ichigo did something similar in the manga. Instead cutting just one arm of Yammi, he strikes him in the neck/head/cuts both of his arms so that he cannot release. I was not talking about Ichigo being specially motivated to kill Yammi as a person for they never met in the tournament, just being motivated to win. In his fight with Byakuya he had already met his opponent and was willing to taunt him, to prove himself able to beat him. That is why he stopped before cutting Byakuya's neck, he was making a point. If he knew Rukia was caught by Aizen, he would have cut Byakuya then. He doesn't always do things like that. If provided with a good enough motive he will shoot to kill (Gin tribute, :)). Against Yami, when he cut his arm off, he was avenging Chad iirc? Normally, he would strike him in the head or torso like any other hollow, right? And that would mean game over.
Maybe I'm wrong, but Yammi released after being seriously pissed at Chad, Rukia and Renji? Of course he can release from the start, but I belive he would suffer a few blows from Ichigo before that happens. And that could prove fatal from him. Ichigo fought with a bankai in every fight since Ken in SS? I presume he would not use his shikai given Yammis reiatsu level.
[hr]
I see now why you got the impression I thought Yammi cannot release if not enraged. I apologize.
I meant his whole theme of rage that is in accord with Ira. I believe it has a lot to do with the fight. Like Baragan's arrogance that cost him his win. Who you are and how you feel affects your performance. Against Ken Yammi was so enraged that he did not block, just punch punch punch. Someone could have cut his head off. :D

Sevenheadedmirror
March 20, 2011, 01:47 PM
if what yammy said was true, then wouldn't that mean that he is stronger than stark barragan or even harribel i would go as far as to say yammy could easily lose to ulquiorra r2.

That's because you are a fanboy but 0 in a countdown is far from 4 if there was a guy that defied the countdown it would be Barragan (controlling time is far too much) but even him has proven to be unable to be greater than the numbers above him, hence you have to stick to the facts. We didn't saw Yammi's fight but he fought against two captains and managed to injure them gravely (at least for some extra to point out how close the fight seemed to be)



Also a question for all of you. Does Ichigo gets his Mugetsu (God-modding) form? otherwise I'm voting for Yammi.

Takahashi
March 20, 2011, 02:01 PM
Also a question for all of you. Does Ichigo gets his Mugetsu (God-modding) form? otherwise I'm voting for Yammi.

Nope. No Dangai/FGT Ichigo.

Henry J. Gloval
March 20, 2011, 02:05 PM
Sevenheadedmirror, please read into the rules thread first, or our posts.
As many have said already, Ichigo has access to all of his pre Dangai training forms, which includes Ichigonator, but no FGT. I voted Ichigo for reasons I explained upon already. Snake Cowboy voted for Yami, but he is wrong. :-D Read above and cast your vote. Take care, man. :-)
[hr]
A milisecond late. :(
[hr]
A milisecond late. :(

kamakazi_1996
March 20, 2011, 03:05 PM
IIRC when Ulquiorra R2 died at the hands of Hollow Ichigo, Yammy felt his rieatsu disappear he said along the lines of, fool I was going to help you finish off Ichigo. So Im pretty sure Yammy knows Ulquiorras full power and still offered his power to help him kill Ichigo.

Either way its CANON that YammyR1 does have more rieatsu than Espada #4-#1.

that doesn't mean that he could actually beat ulquiorra, and didn't ulquiorra say that he never showed anyone his 2nd form i believe he said "not even aizen has seen me like this"

the amount of reiatsu doesn't mean everything, even if he has more reiatsu than the top 4 it doesn't mean he could beat them, he is just too slow and dumb, the only + he has got is his raw power, size and his cero/bala
[hr]

That's because you are a fanboy but 0 in a countdown is far from 4 if there was a guy that defied the countdown it would be Barragan (controlling time is far too much) but even him has proven to be unable to be greater than the numbers above him, hence you have to stick to the facts. We didn't saw Yammi's fight but he fought against two captains and managed to injure them gravely (at least for some extra to point out how close the fight seemed to be)



Also a question for all of you. Does Ichigo gets his Mugetsu (God-modding) form? otherwise I'm voting for Yammi.

im not a FANBOY :yelling Ulquiorra never showed aizen he 2nd resurrection so aizen gave him the number 4 if aizen had known about uqluiorra's 2end resurrection he would have no doubt gave him a higher rank.

are you forgetting about stark, he was fighting high level captains like shunsui, ukitake and a couple of vizards by himself and was able to go toe to toe with all of them, if byakuya and kenpachi were to take on stark, stark would annihilate them.

i have been sticking to the facts, unless all of the things ive written here are lies then dont tell me to stick to the facts :mad

freshseth83
March 20, 2011, 03:58 PM
i don't think Starrk would beat Kenpachi and Byakuya. Rose and Love aren't comparable to them two in my eyes. Byakuya has a bankai, and Kenpachi has a crazy ass Kendo attack. Those two were definitely healed before they fought Yammi. How do I know? Byakuya used both of his hands. In his previous fight he cut the tendons to one of his arms and one of his legs. So he obviously was healed. And Kenpachi was as well. He put his eyepatch back on, so that usually means his reiatsu is restored.

On top of that, they came out of the fight without eyepatch and ripped clothing. Even one of the other characters said they were badly injured. They must have gone all out to defeat Yammi. Ichigo is nowhere near twice what Byakuya or Kenpachi is. So there's no way he'd win when it took both of them to beat Yammi. Hollow Ichigo? It came out to 'protect' Orihime after she yelled his name about 20 times. No orihime here, no will to protect. Ichigo loses. He lost to Ulquiorra and was killed. When he was SEALED. Why can't Yammi do the same? Speed is nothing. He caught Ichigo with a punch, and caught Byakuya (obviously); both of whom aew extra speedy.

kamakazi_1996
March 20, 2011, 04:25 PM
i don't think Starrk would beat Kenpachi and Byakuya. Rose and Love aren't comparable to them two in my eyes. Byakuya has a bankai, and Kenpachi has a crazy ass Kendo attack. Those two were definitely healed before they fought Yammi. How do I know? Byakuya used both of his hands. In his previous fight he cut the tendons to one of his arms and one of his legs. So he obviously was healed. And Kenpachi was as well. He put his eyepatch back on, so that usually means his reiatsu is restored.

On top of that, they came out of the fight without eyepatch and ripped clothing. Even one of the other characters said they were badly injured. They must have gone all out to defeat Yammi. Ichigo is nowhere near twice what Byakuya or Kenpachi is. So there's no way he'd win when it took both of them to beat Yammi. Hollow Ichigo? It came out to 'protect' Orihime after she yelled his name about 20 times. No orihime here, no will to protect. Ichigo loses. He lost to Ulquiorra and was killed. When he was SEALED. Why can't Yammi do the same? Speed is nothing. He caught Ichigo with a punch, and caught Byakuya (obviously); both of whom aew extra speedy.

it wasn't just rose or love, it was also ukitake and shunsui who were-correct me if im wrong- captain yamamoto's best students and stark single handedly took them all on and was able to hold his own against them unless your trying to say that byakuya and kenpachi are stronger than 2 vizards+ 2 high level captains.

yammy only caught ichigo because he wasn't used to his new mask and it dissapeared from his face and left him disoriantated and gave yammi an opening and this is the FKT ichigo fully powered and he knows the limits of his mask and how to use it appropriately and also-correct me if im wrong-we never actually see byakuya get hit with a punch, only ken got hit and said it was nothing but a gust of wind, byakuya more likely got hit with yammi's bala or cero
sidenote:
i might even say that ken could have taken a swing at him, they both said they were in each others way so they might of done a little sparring with each other while cutting up yammi but of course very unlikely

El Samurai Guapo
March 20, 2011, 04:30 PM
Kenpachi and Byakuya (or any other combination of gotei 13 captains) would be dropped by Starrk easily.

Kenpachi's going to sit their and tank 1,000 ceros? Yeah no. Even less is he ever going to even be remotely close to landing that kendo of his if Sealed Starrk carrying Orihime can outright disappear from Kenpachi's sight.

Likewise Byakuya's cherry blossoms aren't holding up against more than a couple dozen. They're aren't fast enough to catch Starrk either. They also aren't going to inflict any notable damage if shikai Ichigo can shrug off a direct hit of from the stuff.

Neither of them have the capacity to even force Starrk to bring out the wolves.

Takahashi
March 20, 2011, 05:38 PM
I'd have to disagree with that, I think Kenpachi and Byakuya are one monster combo. Wait...Why is Stark even in this discussion? Whether Stark could replicate the same thing Yammy did or not is pretty irrelevant when Stark would trash Ichigo regardless...

We didn't see the situation where Yammy actually managed to hit, let alone injure Kenpachi and Byakuya, but I'd say it's impressive. Also, his Reiatsu must have increased dramatically in his second release. He was easily getting limbs taken off left and right, yet when he released, they only managed to remove one arm.

El Samurai Guapo
March 20, 2011, 05:42 PM
I'd have to disagree with that, I think Kenpachi and Byakuya are one monster combo. Wait...Why is Stark even in this discussion? Whether Stark could replicate the same thing Yammy did or not is pretty irrelevant when Stark would trash Ichigo regardless...


How can they be a monster combo if they don't even get along well? They're highly inefficient as a team.

Takahashi
March 20, 2011, 05:45 PM
How can they be a monster combo if they don't even get along well? They're highly inefficient as a team.

In terms of abilities. Having such a well rounded captain and another who's a monster in CQC. Byakuya would be highly effective both as support with Kido and with SKY, and be direct if need be. Although you're right, they'd probably fight a lot :tem

Hystzen
March 20, 2011, 05:48 PM
full powered ichigo GT is damn powerful

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-409-page-7.html

Ichigo can kill yammi..then again i believe he kills yammi before he releases like ichigo would have done before if damn hollow didnt kick in.

then the fact ichigo is fast i dont see yammi landing a serious blow. when we saw the bits of byakuya he was dodging attacks easily and ichigo is either faster or same speed as byakuya with bankai.

CeroOskuraz
March 20, 2011, 08:08 PM
full powered ichigo GT is damn powerful

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-409-page-7.html

Ichigo can kill yammi..then again i believe he kills yammi before he releases like ichigo would have done before if damn hollow didnt kick in.

then the fact ichigo is fast i dont see yammi landing a serious blow. when we saw the bits of byakuya he was dodging attacks easily and ichigo is either faster or same speed as byakuya with bankai.

You guys also have to realize that that picture is just the aftershock of the Getsuga Tenshou that Ichigo used. Most of its power was directed towards compromising Aizen's own Reiatsu defense.

Like he said, it's pretty damn powerful.

Random101
March 20, 2011, 08:52 PM
You're showing me a picture of a building getting cut in half, a feat anyone replicates easily and honestly more impressively with far weaker enhancements (Ie: Hitsugaya Sealed) and an Aizen who was pretty much nicked afterwords.

Nicked decently I won't deny, but ultimately Aizen lacks Hierro.

Suffice to say, I'm not impressed.

CeroOskuraz
March 20, 2011, 09:01 PM
You're showing me a picture of a building getting cut in half, a feat anyone replicates easily and honestly more impressively with far weaker enhancements (Ie: Hitsugaya Sealed) and an Aizen who was pretty much nicked afterwords.

Did you just miss my post? Most of the Getsuga was directed towards harming Aizen; the destruction of the building was just the leftovers of the attack. The actual feat is cutting Aizen and forcing the Hogyoku to regenerate his wounds, something it only does if Aizen's life is in danger.

So something that nearly killed Aizen wouldn't hurt Yammy? Get real, lol.

Random101
March 20, 2011, 09:11 PM
Uh life in danger? From a nick that didn't keep him from dodging and LOLNOing the two others with no effort? Hell no. It regened ALL his wounds. Just because that's the only one that he actually really got hit with doesn't change that the orb was keeping him in ideal physical condition.

Mind I'm not saying he won't be hurt. I'm saying Yammi's got Hierro and his first form took that at roughly half power anyway, if we assume that's how that works (Because considering his cloak is full anyway that certainly didn't look like it took any freaking power). And he got off with a much lesser nick than that to say the least.

He'll cut no doubt. It just won't be as deep as it needs to be to matter. >>

El Samurai Guapo
March 20, 2011, 09:41 PM
I want to know why many of you seem to believe the post Ulquiorra fight Ichigo was superior to the pre-Ulquiorra fight one. The new mask pattern? Was that ever stated to increase its strength? His resolve was at its absolute worse after the Ichigonator incident (remember the resulting flood inside his inner world?), and he lacked the ability to maintain hollowfication for any amount of time.

This Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-357-page-18.html)is the best choice by far, but Yammi still wins.

Jackk
March 20, 2011, 09:57 PM
Yeah, it's possible that Ichigo may have gotten some sort of power-up due to his full hollow transformation; Kubo made Aizen suggest that Ichigo even got a new power with which he was able to defeat Ulquiorra. Problem is that that same power-up actually messed up Ichigo by messing his inner world--which affected his performance; he couldn't even use his new Mask for as long as he was previously able to sustain the previous one etc.

It wasn't until his Dangai training that Ichigo was able to face his hollow and zangetsu and fix his problems and gain proper control of his powers apparently.

El Samurai Guapo
March 20, 2011, 10:03 PM
Honestly Ichigo could have become much stronger a lot sooner (maybe not post-dangai level but still) if he had actually attempted to train ONCE with zangestsu since he achieved bankai. We find out in the dangai (because he doesn't recognize tensa zangetsu) that Ichigo had never even taken the time to visit his inner-world a single damn time since he conquered his inner-hollow? WTF?

Jackk
March 20, 2011, 10:08 PM
Honestly Ichigo could have become much stronger a lot sooner (maybe not post-dangai level but still) if he had actually attempted to train ONCE with zangestsu since he achieved bankai. We find out in the dangai (because he doesn't recognize tensa zangetsu) that Ichigo had never even taken the time to visit his inner-world a single damn time since he conquered his inner-hollow? WTF?

I would say plot reasons cause I don't want to call Ichigo an idiot, but yeah...

Also, had Ichigo visited his inner world after conquering his hollow, it's possible that he may have even learned to shoot ceros with his Mask like the other vizards. Come to think of it, wasn't Ichigo's training with the vizards not even finished when he left?

El Samurai Guapo
March 20, 2011, 10:27 PM
I would say plot reasons cause I don't want to call Ichigo an idiot, but yeah...

Also, had Ichigo visited his inner world after conquering his hollow, it's possible that he may have even learned to shoot ceros with his Mask like the other vizards. Come to think of it, wasn't Ichigo's training with the vizards not even finished when he left?

Ichigo is an idiot though. Remember the whole "CUT OFF MY ARM AND LEG TOO" thing?

He did take off before his traning was finished though. Had he stuck around longer, he likely would have been able to increase his mask duration, learned to fire ceros, and also had time to train with zangetsu too. I'm sure that's what the vaizards have done; they've surely improved both their shinigami and hollow sides during their century of training.

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 01:15 AM
it wasn't just rose or love, it was also ukitake and shunsui who were-correct me if im wrong- captain yamamoto's best students and stark single handedly took them all on and was able to hold his own against them unless your trying to say that byakuya and kenpachi are stronger than 2 vizards+ 2 high level captains.

yammy only caught ichigo because he wasn't used to his new mask and it dissapeared from his face and left him disoriantated and gave yammi an opening and this is the FKT ichigo fully powered and he knows the limits of his mask and how to use it appropriately and also-correct me if im wrong-we never actually see byakuya get hit with a punch, only ken got hit and said it was nothing but a gust of wind, byakuya more likely got hit with yammi's bala or cero
sidenote:
i might even say that ken could have taken a swing at him, they both said they were in each others way so they might of done a little sparring with each other while cutting up yammi but of course very unlikely

What? Starrk shot ceros at Ukitake and dodged one attack from Shunsui when they were together. How is that taking all of them on? Love and Rose were a weak duo, nothing shown by them has been very impressive from a teams standpoint. Love did more to Starrk than Rose did. Did Rose even connect? I think not. He couldn't do crap to the wolves, neither of the two could. Why do people hype up a character to be something so grand when he lost in two strikes? One- Stab from Shunsui through the back. Two- Slice from Shunsui calling black that killed him. In a shikai game. And don't even mention that he got hit by Love's club in that fire move. That was before he even got motivated, it didn't even effect him. But yeah- Starrk can take them all on? Must be a different manga than the one I'm reading.

All you're doing is trying to play down Yammi's abilities by saying things like that. It's a fact that he hurt Byakuya and Kenpachi. It's a fact that they used their Bankai and removed eyepatch in their fight against him. It's a fact that they attacked him once in the face and he got right back up. It's a fact he took a GT to the back of the neck and it left a scratch. It's a fact that he was able to trash Rukia Renji and Chad at once. It's a fact that he's the Cero Espada. What else do you have to say besides fiction? Can you put any facts in your statements and show me how Ichigo by himself would win?

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 01:22 AM
Love did more to Starrk than Rose did. Did Rose even connect? I think not. He couldn't do crap to the wolves

That's factually incorrect. Rose annihilated some wolves. ;)

Random101
March 21, 2011, 01:31 AM
Frankly no, they weren't. Bare minimum what happened there was ambiguous, because frankly there was a boom in the sky and then suddenly a crap ton of them rush them out of goddamn nowhere from under them, they get out of that boom, then more appear in the sky again and rush them. Frankly the most sensible explanation was that they just plain regened after, as where the hell were those hiding, beyond the boom the sky was clear of wolves. They showed perfectly capable of regening from minor flames to say the least. >>

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 01:34 AM
No. The wolves that were in the sky were annihilated by Rose's Masked Izayoi Bara. There were just more wolves that sneaked on them from behind. There were too wolves.

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 01:38 AM
I said did Rose connect with STARRK. Not he wolves. I know he used a Sonata against the wolves and it resulted in a decent sized explosion, but whether or not they canceled those wolves is up for debate. I'm not even sure myself. But Love at least kit Starrk.

Random101
March 21, 2011, 01:38 AM
No. Three came from below from under the rubble. Fine, those were different wolves. I'll buy that.

Then out of goddamn nowhere, several more come out of the sky and rush them again immediately after that: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/12.html

Now you might say, oh they were in a different part of the sky. Then I ask you: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/9.html

Where the hell were they? And why were Love and Rose not immediately turned towards them after that section was 'cleared' as opposed to bantering to each other to get bum rushed?

Nothing anywhere suggests the first set were gone to say the freaking least. In fact given the sheer number of separate booms of the second strike, I'd frankly say that entirely onslaught just rushed them right then and there.

Edit: Basically to say they were cleared would require us to see after the attack finished. Since we didn't, and a new onslaught of wolves came after them from the sky similar to the pack that got hit, the most obvious solution compromise to the two questions is obvious and reasonable to say the least.

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 01:44 AM
Nah. The link still shows that Rose annihilated the wolves that were in the sky. There were just way too many more wolves.

Random101
March 21, 2011, 01:51 AM
Or it shows a big boom, obscuring everything, like say pieces of the wolves remaining (Actually like exactly what I see there already in the explosion) that would just reform themselves like every other attack prior. Because, again, we don't see the attack finish, which is vital to knowing things like regenerating exploding wolves were actually destroyed. PARTICULARLY if there wasn't bigger booms set off by that one. >>

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 01:57 AM
Nah. I think you're reading too much into it. Besides, when Rose used his whip to strike them, we saw that they reformed nearly instantaneously, in fact, they were more like flames as Love described them. As a result, Rose got annoyed by Stark's "magic" and used an attack--his Masked Izayoi Bara--that completely destroyed those particular wolves before they could reform. There were just way more wolves; too many to deal with. Otherwise, where were all the other wolves that we saw when Stark summoned them initially? Playing checkers with Stark? The dude summoned a lot of wolves...

Random101
March 21, 2011, 02:02 AM
Did you see how many cores made up that second explosion. I counted at least 9 from one side alone, possibly more depending on the distribution of the other sides (Granted assuming no major converging distortions, but given Kubo's not good with explosion physics I should be golden there). Hence why I say more likely that's the entire onslaught there. Because, again, there's no evidence the explosion destroyed them. We never saw them gone.

We did however see them not turn to any pack of bare minimum 9ish wolves still around and instead saw fit to banter with each other before they got blindsided by the ones under them. >>

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 02:06 AM
I don't think Rose got rid of the wolves, he might have dissipated them, but it looks to me that they reformed and came back after him.

Were way off topic now though. Rose and Love have nothing to do with this fight. I don't see Ichigo winning unless he can kill Yammi off the bat. And I don't see that happening at all. Yammi releases and its over.

Random101
March 21, 2011, 02:08 AM
Well, either way suffice to say there's no evidence to say either for sure, but considering that's what I held from the start, that should suffice.

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 02:14 AM
Fine. I'll concede that we can't tell as 100% fact that he destroyed those wolves, but I still believe that it makes more sense that he really did. I think there were just more wolves that sneaked on them from behind. But anyway, yeah, might as well drop it since it kinda is getting a bit off-topic.

El Samurai Guapo
March 21, 2011, 03:17 AM
Starrk had around 50 to start. Rose had to have destroyed some, cause otherwise where did the rest go? Only three wolves went down in the first explosion. Ok, that leaves 47. In the second we only see another 3 or so appear behind Love and Rose. Granted it looked like there was more like 5-6 explosions here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html, but obviously nowhere near 40+.

Darkp
March 21, 2011, 07:34 AM
I want to know why many of you seem to believe the post Ulquiorra fight Ichigo was superior to the pre-Ulquiorra fight one. The new mask pattern? Was that ever stated to increase its strength? His resolve was at its absolute worse after the Ichigonator incident (remember the resulting flood inside his inner world?), and he lacked the ability to maintain hollowfication for any amount of time.

This Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-357-page-18.html)is the best choice by far, but Yammi still wins.

New mask definatly a lot stronger than the previous mask and we have a prove for that one .

Ok from databook , we cannonly know Yammy's Hierro > Ulqiora's Hierro

Old Mask full powered getsuga tensou could not damage against ulqiora's hierro .

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/270/28/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/270/29/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/271/07/

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/14/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/15/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/16/

But with new mask even with half reiatsu , ichigo able to damage yammy's hierro which is cannonly stronger than Ulqiora's .

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/379/10/

So there is huge difference at power between ichigo's old and new mask .

And this could be a cannon prove SS bankai ichigo somehow more stronger than HM bankai ichigo .

Random101
March 21, 2011, 11:11 AM
Starrk had around 50 to start. Rose had to have destroyed some, cause otherwise where did the rest go? Only three wolves went down in the first explosion. Ok, that leaves 47. In the second we only see another 3 or so appear behind Love and Rose. Granted it looked like there was more like 5-6 explosions here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html, but obviously nowhere near 40+.
That's the same either way. The explosion was nowhere near big enough to take out forty even assuming they were all bunched together, which given the establishing shot didn't even remotely appear true. In fact only roughly 7 or so were visible there if you stretch it. Know what likely happened?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/5.html

A ton must've been knocked aside in that burst of whatever the hell that was, potentially lying in wait like those three that rushed them. Which is literally the only way I let them hiding in the rubble slide in the first place as that's the only part in which they would have had their eyes taken off some.

kamakazi_1996
March 21, 2011, 12:05 PM
What? Starrk shot ceros at Ukitake and dodged one attack from Shunsui when they were together. How is that taking all of them on? Love and Rose were a weak duo, nothing shown by them has been very impressive from a teams standpoint. Love did more to Starrk than Rose did. Did Rose even connect? I think not. He couldn't do crap to the wolves, neither of the two could. Why do people hype up a character to be something so grand when he lost in two strikes? One- Stab from Shunsui through the back. Two- Slice from Shunsui calling black that killed him. In a shikai game. And don't even mention that he got hit by Love's club in that fire move. That was before he even got motivated, it didn't even effect him. But yeah- Starrk can take them all on? Must be a different manga than the one I'm reading.

All you're doing is trying to play down Yammi's abilities by saying things like that. It's a fact that he hurt Byakuya and Kenpachi. It's a fact that they used their Bankai and removed eyepatch in their fight against him. It's a fact that they attacked him once in the face and he got right back up. It's a fact he took a GT to the back of the neck and it left a scratch. It's a fact that he was able to trash Rukia Renji and Chad at once. It's a fact that he's the Cero Espada. What else do you have to say besides fiction? Can you put any facts in your statements and show me how Ichigo by himself would win?

that doesn't change the fact that he had forced them to fight seriously,
the 1-2 slices doesn't really matter, it depends on who is striking, aizen himself was able to beat top level captains with 1 strike when they had an opening, im not trying to put down his abilities, he is really strong but he we have never seen that much out of him, they even skipped most of his battle with byakuya and ken for whatever reason and we never saw what he can really do, unless i see for myself what he can truly do, im gonna go with ichigo based on what i have seen out of him.

it is true that injured both of them, ill admit to that
yes he forced byakuya to go bankai but ichigo was able to force him to do bankai with only his shikai and then with his own bankai was able to defeat byakuya even when byakuya released his senkei, i never saw byakuya use his senkei against yammi, he might of used it but byakuya doesn't like showing people his senkei and prefers not to use it most of the time.

ichigo was able to draw with no eyepatch kenpachi with only his shikai and dont say that ken is weak because he certainly isn't, he is a beast when he removes his eyepatch.

rukia, renji and chad (no offence) are very weak, chad couldn't do crap against noitora when they encountered, rukia only defeated aroniero-cant spell his name- by luck, renji couldn't defeat syazel even with ishida, but the fight was rigged by syazel, and renji was still able trap and blast syazel with shakaho

you could say that ichigo can't take on both of them at the same time, i agree with that but i think they were not even trying very hard when fighting yammi , they had wounds but they both looked like they didn't care at all, they seemed bored from the battle.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-57804-6/bleach/chapter-422.html

even kenpachi who loves and enjoys fighting more than anything said it was "boring", so im gonna take kens word for it and assume the fight was boring with nothing special, except yammi scoring a couple of blows and kenpachi and byakuya slicing and dicing him.

ichigo, would just simply speed blitz yammi, he was faster than senbonzakura even with byakuya using his hands he was faster, so he can just avoid all of yammis blows,

he did it before with ease even when carrying rukia
http://www.mangareader.net/94-35988-13/bleach/chapter-378.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-35988-14/bleach/chapter-378.html

yammi is strong yet ichigo was still able to block him and counter
http://www.mangareader.net/94-35988-17/bleach/chapter-378.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-35988-18/bleach/chapter-378.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-35988-19/bleach/chapter-378.html

ichigo said so himself that his friends were around and like i said before he might of held back to only hurt yammi but not his friends now its just 1v1 he doesn't need to hold back

he said "if its just you and me...i can take you down by force" ill take his word for it, he never uses his own words lightly
[hr]
:offtopic erm where did all this stark and his werewolves talk come out from :blink

El Samurai Guapo
March 21, 2011, 12:59 PM
New mask definatly a lot stronger than the previous mask and we have a prove for that one .

Ok from databook , we cannonly know Yammy's Hierro > Ulqiora's Hierro

Old Mask full powered getsuga tensou could not damage against ulqiora's hierro .

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/270/28/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/270/29/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/271/07/

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/14/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/15/
http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/346/16/

But with new mask even with half reiatsu , ichigo able to damage yammy's hierro which is cannonly stronger than Ulqiora's .

http://www.mangaday.com/Bleach/379/10/

So there is huge difference at power between ichigo's old and new mask .

And this could be a cannon prove SS bankai ichigo somehow more stronger than HM bankai ichigo .

That, or you know, the databook directly contradicts what the manga shows (and given the choice, I'll choose what the manga itself shows first and foremost). For starters, hierro lends to an arrancar's durability, but reiatsu is also a huge factor. Ulquiorra was probably more difficult to cut than Nnoitora because he had MUCH higher reiatsu (on top of hierro of his own). Yammi seemed like he had no durability whatsoever. Yes, Kenpachi managed to cut through Nnoitora, but Yammi was many ranks higher than him, and supposedly rank was based off of reiatsu. In other words, Yammi should NOT have been sliced apart so easily by patched Kenpachi no matter how you look at it. And Ichigo...he was operating with LESS than half of his reiatsu (all he had was a sleeve remaining). I'm supposed to by that the new mask, which he had no control over, in a time where is inner world was in complete turmoil, made him like 5 times stronger? Yeah, no. The Ichigo that crushed Grimmjow and moved on to fight Ulquiorra would have done worse to Yammi easily.

Random101
March 21, 2011, 01:02 PM
He had half. Granted the sleeve was the only bit of his coat left, but his pants were still there, and I'm going to buy Unohana directly saying half when there's a decent rationalization there over any conjecture of whether or not the pants actually count. Frankly I have heavy doubts him even being down to half reduces the power of a VGT any anyway. It's not like he uses all his power for every shot of the bloody thing, nor reduced reiatsu causing reduced output. Granted it definitely would reduce his cutting power, that directly corresponds to overall reiatsu that you have, but a GT operates on completely different parameters being an attack that's fired.

El Samurai Guapo
March 21, 2011, 01:27 PM
Pants aren't part of his bankai.

Random101
March 21, 2011, 01:40 PM
And Unohana isn't blind. Ergo I'm buying her saying he had half despite clearly having only a sleeve left (ergo about a 4th if I'm generous), as opposed to conjecture of whether or not those count. >>

El Samurai Guapo
March 21, 2011, 02:24 PM
It's not conjecture, what changes when he goes bankai is the black overcoat, the pants remain the same. Ichigo himself even points to his sleeve and says that's all he has left. The point is, FKT Ichigo was in no way indicated as being stronger. Ichigo has always had 2x captain level reiatsu.

ShootToKill
March 21, 2011, 02:31 PM
I don't think that even if Ichigo has twice the Reiatsu of a Captain (quite an ambiguous term anyway) that we should rule Yammy out - after all, Starrk as a VL destroyed Hollows just by them being in his presence, and I'm sure Starrk as an Espada had more Reiatsu than that. And released Yammy has even more Reiatsu. So as far as Reiatsu is concerned, I would say Yammy has Ichigo beat considerably, especially if he makes it to R2, because I doubt GT's from Ichigo will kill him before he gets angry enough to transform again.

El Samurai Guapo
March 21, 2011, 02:33 PM
I don't think that even if Ichigo has twice the Reiatsu of a Captain (quite an ambiguous term anyway) that we should rule Yammy out - after all, Starrk as a VL destroyed Hollows just by them being in his presence, and I'm sure Starrk as an Espada had more Reiatsu than that. And released Yammy has even more Reiatsu. So as far as Reiatsu is concerned, I would say Yammy has Ichigo beat considerably, especially if he makes it to R2, because I doubt GT's from Ichigo will kill him before he gets angry enough to transform again.

I doubt it it too, the only thing I'm trying to figure out is why the worst possible Ichigo (FKT) is being considered as having the best shot at defeating Yammi. The one with the best should would be the one that upgraded after betting Grimmjow and fought sealed Ulquiorra, but even he would go down.

ShootToKill
March 21, 2011, 02:38 PM
Agreed. Ichigo just seems so inconsistent throughout the entirity of Bleach that to me it's almost impossible to decide which version of him is best, especially since most of the characters he's fought haven't really proved themselves against anyone else (Grimmjow, Ulquiorra).

Random101
March 21, 2011, 03:37 PM
It's not conjecture, what changes when he goes bankai is the black overcoat, the pants remain the same. Ichigo himself even points to his sleeve and says that's all he has left. The point is, FKT Ichigo was in no way indicated as being stronger. Ichigo has always had 2x captain level reiatsu.
And his original shirt disappears, meaning it's entirely possible for the pants to be the same, albeit less noticable because black pants are black pants. Thing is, while he is pointing to the cloak, he clearly has way less than half and Unohana only doubles it, despite that fact. I don't hold Unohana as a blind moron, so I'm holding her word over that conjecture to say the least. >>

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 06:00 PM
that 2x reiatsu I thought was a translation error. It was supposedly just meaning greater than captain level reiatsu and he only had half of his. In other words, he has twice the reiatsu he had then. Not 2x captains reiatsu. Even if basically means about the same thing. The thing that Unohana was surprised about was that he had that much reiatsu left, even though he only had 'half' of it restored. Comparable reiatsu to a captain is enough to defeat Aizen she felt because he hadn't seen KS. Little did that do thanks to the Hog'

Takahashi
March 21, 2011, 06:29 PM
that 2x reiatsu I thought was a translation error. It was supposedly just meaning greater than captain level reiatsu and he only had half of his. In other words, he has twice the reiatsu he had then. Not 2x captains reiatsu. Even if basically means about the same thing. The thing that Unohana was surprised about was that he had that much reiatsu left, even though he only had 'half' of it restored. Comparable reiatsu to a captain is enough to defeat Aizen she felt because he hadn't seen KS. Little did that do thanks to the Hog'

I'm pretty sure you're mixing up what aizen said. There was a translation error when he said he had 2 times captain class reiatsu but it was just greater than. Or was that something else...? Uhhh...I don't remember. :p

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty sure it was discussed somewhere that the 2x reiatsu thing was a translation error for the Ichigo issue with Unohana. Not sure about the Aizen thing- that may be a translation error also.

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 09:25 PM
I'm pretty sure you're mixing up what aizen said. There was a translation error when he said he had 2 times captain class reiatsu but it was just greater than. Or was that something else...? Uhhh...I don't remember. :p

No. You're right actually. The mistranslation was for Aizen's statement.

Mistranslation: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-229/15/

Correct translation: http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FVolume%20Chapters%2Fvol26-ch229%2Fbleach-vol26-117.png

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 10:28 PM
According to the site you gave, if that's the correct translation, then what Unohana said about Ichigo is that he had captain level reiatsu when he was only about half his maximum. Not sure if that has any relevance. I still don't feel he'd beat Yammi. Even though he has an abundance of reiatsu, like Unohana said, it's crude. If he could control it he'd be something else. But this Ichigo in the tournament can't.

Jackk
March 21, 2011, 10:39 PM
I never claimed that the Ichigo that is in this tournament could fully control his reiatsu. In fact, I pointed out the fact that this Ichigo is the one with the messed up inner world and low Mask time limit after his hollow transformation against Ulquiorra.

freshseth83
March 21, 2011, 11:13 PM
I never claimed that the Ichigo that is in this tournament could fully control his reiatsu. In fact, I pointed out the fact that this Ichigo is the one with the messed up inner world and low Mask time limit after his hollow transformation against Ulquiorra.

I just made a general statement. That's why I believe he loses. If he could control it, and had access to all of his potential, he probably could deliver a fatal blow. But he never has until he furthered his training. Seeing as how that Ichigo isn't allowed, I'm not buying into his winning. Whatever someone else thinks is great. I'm just giving my two cents on it.

Jorge D. Dragon
March 22, 2011, 12:14 AM
freshseth83
In fact Ichigo actually managed to deliver Aizen really a good hit.:) Even though Aizen was caught a bit of guard, but still. There wasn't anyone that did better damage to pre-evolved Aizen.:)
So, I can't say that Ichigo at the end of Fake Karakura Town fight could totally control his power, but he clerly got way better and his reiatsu was full, so he has a chance against Yammy.
I don't think he can take R2 Yammy by himself, but still he can take Yammy while Yammy is sealed and also I do believe he can take Yammy whille Yammy is in R1.
Also, Ichigo has more than 2x Reiatsu of aCaptain according to Unohana, hence he has really great attacking power, even though he can't fully control it. Even though big hammer is better than the fist even if you aren't good with the hammer.:)

freshseth83
March 22, 2011, 02:50 AM
Isshin did more damage to Chrysalis Aizen with his GT. Even though Ichigo got a clear shot, that was to a body the size of his. Not to someone the size of a building with hierro that Aizen didn't have. A GT is probably equal to, and maybe a little better than a shot from Senbonzakura Kageyoshi from Byakuya. And we saw what that didn't do, COMBINED with a shot from Kenpachi! look here http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch382%2Fbleach-ch382-18-19.png and then here http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch383%2Fbleach-ch383-02.png

Kenpachi and Byakuya even gave him credit for his cero here http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch382%2Fbleach-ch382-15.png that was one hell of a cero. Ichigo gets hit with two or three of those he better have a prayer. Not to mention the balas that were pushing him back. If Yammi took the brunt of that attack in the face, I donno what ichigo could hope to do.

Henry J. Gloval
March 22, 2011, 04:28 AM
Freshseth, are you forgetting that half powered masked Ichigo knocked Yami to the ground casually with his GT? Compare that GT to the one he released upon Aizen, and tell me then if a barrage of say 5 of them could mince Yami? I believe they could. Hell, a GT like that to the face would kill anything but Hogyzen. Now, did you just compare a SKY attack to GT? The same SKY Ichigo in shikai tanked back in SS, to a GT that would have killed Aizen outright? I do not see that. Do not think for one second that I'm downplaying Byakuaya, he is my favourite character in the manga, but my fanboyism for him has limits. Another comparison, Ken was cutting Yami's legs and fingers with one handed casual swings. Do you think he can do the same to Aizen if he were to surprise him like Ichigo did? I do not see that, mate.
It does not matter really, Ichigonator would rape Yami even if manages to survive what would have killed Aizen and somehow beats Ichigo to the brink of death.
Ken and Byakuya were not much of a team. They could have killed Yami in seconds if they were workine together. Say, Ken goes to attack Yami from the front and tanks him paladin style, and Byakuya goes for his head with Shukei Hakuteiken assasin style. Or Byakuya uses Sky from the distance, maybe even Gokei, then Ken kendos Yami's ass. Game over. It would be a bit overkill, but you get my point. :)

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 03:24 PM
Freshseth, are you forgetting that half powered masked Ichigo knocked Yami to the ground casually with his GT?

He was in Bankai, using his mask, using his best attack. Not what I'd call casual. Ichigo uses everything at his disposal and gets showed up by patched Kenpachi.


Compare that GT to the one he released upon Aizen, and tell me then if a barrage of say 5 of them could mince Yami? I believe they could.

Probably not. Aizen has no Hierro for one, nor is he even close to being the size Yammy is.


Hell, a GT like that to the face would kill anything but Hogyzen.

So would a generic sword stab...



Now, did you just compare a SKY attack to GT? The same SKY Ichigo in shikai tanked back in SS,

I don't think it's tanking when you get crushed into the ground by SKY's weakest attack and struggle to stand :p



to a GT that would have killed Aizen outright? I do not see that.

He got cut pretty bad on the shoulder, that's hardly fatal. Not to mention he got owned by Yama seconds before.


Another comparison, Ken was cutting Yami's legs and fingers with one handed casual swings. Do you think he can do the same to Aizen if he were to surprise him like Ichigo did? I do not see that, mate.

I do....Aizen has no Hierro.... Aizen is fully capable of being cut just like anyone else, he simply doesn't allow it most of the time. Any captain could surprise attack a non KS Aizen and do serious damage.


It does not matter really, Ichigonator would rape Yami even if manages to survive what would have killed Aizen and somehow beats Ichigo to the brink of death.

Ichigonator also only came to be from having a Hollow hole put in his chest, and "Kurosaki-kun" X 100. Ulq has a habit of making Hollow holes in people, Aizen knew they'd fight, Aizen wanted Ichigo to progress into that transformation. Clearly, it's a necessity.


Ken and Byakuya were not much of a team. They could have killed Yami in seconds if they were workine together. Say, Ken goes to attack Yami from the front and tanks him paladin style, and Byakuya goes for his head with Shukei Hakuteiken assasin style. Or Byakuya uses Sky from the distance, maybe even Gokei, then Ken kendos Yami's ass. Game over. It would be a bit overkill, but you get my point. :)

R1? Sure. R2, not so sure. It clearly wasn't easy, and the fact that Byakuya even got hit means that Yammy can't be as slow as people think.

Henry J. Gloval
March 22, 2011, 04:09 PM
Takahashi, I addresed the issue of Ichigonator in the Tournament discussion thread, would you be kind enough to read it there, I dont like quoting myself. Thank you in advance. ;-)
GT is ichigo's ONLY attack. :-D I believe he fired it of at Yami somewhat half-heartedly, judging his words "I can easily crush you". Meh, I could be wrong, that was my impression.
I think of tanking being hit and then able to fight on like it was nothing. It fits the bill does it not? We seem to have different opinion of the words meaning. I stand corrected if I've made a bad example, but I still believe that GT>SKY in sheer damage. Though I like SKY better, it has +1 for style in my book.:)
Aizen admitted himself that without Hogugouguk... that damn orb thingy, he would die from those wounds.
Well, if Shukei or kendo did not kill him, what did? Those are their best attacks, right. Yami was off-panelled, we can claim anything, including Ken and B having a fight between themselves. :) I believe I addresed all of your remarks. If I missed some, sorry. I'll try to answer them too. Cheers, mate. :)

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 04:18 PM
Takahashi, I addresed the issue of Ichigonator in the Tournament discussion thread, would you be kind enough to read it there, I dont like quoting myself. Thank you in advance. ;-)

Actually, you made that post after I made this one :p. I did read it though. I just disagree. I think it's pretty clear that the Hollow hole itself, as well as Orihime were integral to that PARTICULAR transformation. But either way, no use in arguing it, agree to disagree I guess.


GT is ichigo's ONLY attack. :-D I believe he fired it of at Yami somewhat half-heartedly, judging his words "I can easily crush you". Meh, I could be wrong, that was my impression.

Well, he was weaker due to his inner world being messed, but even if we assume he was only 50%, I still found it very unimpressive overall.


I think of tanking being hit and then able to fight on like it was nothing. It fits the bill does it not? We seem to have different opinion of the words meaning.

Ichigo was okay after going Bankai, but he was lying in that crater for a while... I'd attribute tanking more to Kenpachi taking constant slashes and still standing. I think there's a difference between tanking, and simply not being killed :amuse


I stand corrected if I've made a bad example, but I still believe that GT>SKY in sheer damage. Though I like SKY better, it has +1 for style in my book.:)

Yeah, I love Byakuya, but SKY is most certainly not a power type. It's powerful due to versatility, not raw strength.


Aizen admitted himself that without Hogugouguk... that damn orb thingy, he would die from those wounds.

Could you link that for me? I don't recall that.


Well, if Shukei or kendo did not kill him, what did? Those are their best attacks, right. Yami was off-panelled, we can claim anything, including Ken and B having a fight between themselves. :)

I've actually always entertained the idea that they beat Yammy and then fought each other :amuse

However, Yammy went from being easily dismembered, to only losing an arm in R2. Since the damage you take has to do with Hierro and Reiatsu, that means either one, or both of them, got a HUGE increase. The fact that they only managed to hack off a single limb means that R2 at least in terms of Reiatsu is no joke. I also think we can give Yammy the benefit of the doubt that HE was the one who hurt them :tem

So a HUGE chunk of Reiatsu, that is capable of hitting Byakuya is pretty tough for Ichigo to beat IMO.

I also don't think Ichigonator will ever come out, so I won't bother speculating on it :P

Henry J. Gloval
March 22, 2011, 04:42 PM
I can point you to the chapter when Aizen said it. It was just after he got hit by Ichigo with it. The chapter we found out he has the damn orb in him, maybe someone other can help? I'm on mobile, so it would be a pain for me to load several pages with images. Please do not hold this against me. I would link it if I were near a PC. :)
About the hollow hole in Ichigonator, I see no reason why he would have it, while during Dangai training Hichigo is shown without one, but with the mask and even that hair/fibre around his wrist IIRC. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.
Agree to disagree? You are right on target, Takahashi. :) If Kubo would only state the implications of Ichigonator and all, this would be much simpler. Masked Ichigo bankai> Yami r1. But without Ichigonator, R2 would probably trash him. Then again we never saw how Yami was beaten. Catching Byakuya who is a ranged fighter with SKY and damn fast. Hell no! :D

ShootToKill
March 22, 2011, 04:50 PM
I think Ichigo's winning this whether we like it or not... he had less reason to beat Starrk than Yammy imo, and look what happened there :amuse

Jackk
March 22, 2011, 04:55 PM
I think Ichigo's winning this whether we like it or not... he had less reason to beat Starrk than Yammy imo, and look what happened there :amuse

Many people probably think that it's post Dangai Ichigo who's fighting in the tournament. The ones who just come and vote and don't read the rules nor make a post in the thread...

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 04:57 PM
I can point you to the chapter when Aizen said it. It was just after he got hit by Ichigo with it. The chapter we found out he has the damn orb in him, maybe someone other can help? I'm on mobile, so it would be a pain for me to load several pages with images. Please do not hold this against me. I would link it if I were near a PC. :)

http://www.mangareader.net/94-48494-13/bleach/chapter-396.html

He says he "missed his chance" to kill him, and that there won't be any other openings. He didn't ever say he would have died.



About the hollow hole in Ichigonator, I see no reason why he would have it, while during Dangai training Hichigo is shown without one, but with the mask and even that hair/fibre around his wrist IIRC. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.

He doesn't. Although I don't think it matters personally.


Agree to disagree? You are right on target, Takahashi. :) If Kubo would only state the implications of Ichigonator and all, this would be much simpler. Masked Ichigo bankai> Yami r1. But without Ichigonator, R2 would probably trash him. Then again we never saw how Yami was beaten. Catching Byakuya who is a ranged fighter with SKY and damn fast. Hell no! :D

:amuse

Henry J. Gloval
March 22, 2011, 05:08 PM
I was wrong about the GT killing Aizen without the Hog. Thank you for correcting me. I will do the same to you if need be, dont doubt it.:-D
I voted Ichigo nevertheless. He will revenge Ken in the next round. Lol B-)

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 05:11 PM
I was wrong about the GT killing Aizen without the Hog. Thank you for correcting me. I will do the same to you if need be, dont doubt it.:-D
I voted Ichigo nevertheless. He will revenge Ken in the next round. Lol B-)

Oh right, Kenny lost...

freshseth83
March 22, 2011, 05:53 PM
Still going with Yammi. Ichigo is not equal to Kenpachi + Byakuya. Even before R2 he took their hits. I wish they showed how those two beat him. Ichigo at best is equal to Kenpachi and Byakuya. Maybe, just MAYBE slightly ahead of them two. But surely not together. All the times we thought Yammi was dead, he wasn't. That guy turned into a Giant Gorilla like creature that looked like something off DBZ.

CeroOskuraz
March 22, 2011, 06:53 PM
Let me tell you something about R1 Yammy. He's not even fifth Espada level.

Patched Kenpachi completely destroyed him without even using Kendo. BY HIMSELF (http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-11/bleach/chapter-382.html)

Do you know what that means? It means that He's not even fifth Espada level.

El Samurai Guapo
March 22, 2011, 07:12 PM
Let me tell you something about R1 Yammy. He's not even fifth Espada level.

Patched Kenpachi completely destroyed him without even using Kendo. BY HIMSELF (http://www.mangareader.net/94-39731-11/bleach/chapter-382.html)

Do you know what that means? It means that He's not even fifth Espada level.

Exactly, and I hope nobody gives you the hierro argument (that if he can cut Nnoitora he should be able to easily slice anyone apart) because being supposedly 5 whole ranks above Nnoitora, the reiatsu difference should more than account for the difference in hierro. IMO even Ulquiorra had high enough reiatsu that, when combined with his own hierro, made him tougher to cut than Nniottora.

kamakazi_1996
March 22, 2011, 07:49 PM
I think Ichigo's winning this whether we like it or not... he had less reason to beat Starrk than Yammy imo, and look what happened there :amuse

i think so too, i had come back from my holiday and saw that ichigo had beaten stark, even though ichigo without his dangai form should be weaker than him.

but im not gonna say that yammi could beat ichigo just yet, i still think ichigo could beat yammi without too many problems and i hope the votes wont be affected by fans, the ones in the final should be aizen and yamamaoto.

theres around 4 hours till the results come up, im looking forward to see who wins
[hr]
oh yea, can anyone tell me what would happen if yammi and ichigo were to draw? just wondering because it is possible

CeroOskuraz
March 22, 2011, 07:53 PM
Exactly, and I hope nobody gives you the hierro argument (that if he can cut Nnoitora he should be able to easily slice anyone apart) because being supposedly 5 whole ranks above Nnoitora, the reiatsu difference should more than account for the difference in hierro. IMO even Ulquiorra had high enough reiatsu that, when combined with his own hierro, made him tougher to cut than Nniottora.

They did actually give me the hierro argument. I responded by holding them to their source, the databook, which claims that his hierro is the second strongest in base. I took it to mean that they believed Loly was a high-tier opponent (http://www.mangareader.net/94-797-6/bleach/chapter-343.html).

Absolutely not. Tensa Zangetsu is tons stronger than SBK seeing as how Ichigo deflected all of them (http://www.mangareader.net/94-617-15/bleach/chapter-163.html), and yet it can't cut base Ulquiorra (http://www.mangareader.net/94-795-12/bleach/chapter-341.html). But see what it did to Yammy?

No that just proves Yammy's durability is straight up trash. SBK can't even cut Zommari (http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-4/bleach/chapter-302.html)

Henry J. Gloval
March 22, 2011, 08:02 PM
If the fight ends in a draw, I believe the mod in charge of the thread flips a coin. That is the only way I see Yami winning. Technical KO. Lol :-D
Or they haven't thought of it for it is near impossible. Dont know

Random101
March 22, 2011, 08:22 PM
No that just proves Yammy's durability is straight up trash. SBK can't even cut Zommari (http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-4/bleach/chapter-302.html)
... You're showing a pumpkin ball that's bleeding profusely. You just shot yourself in the foot, what the hell. He's clearly cut there. >>

freshseth83
March 22, 2011, 08:32 PM
They did actually give me the hierro argument. I responded by holding them to their source, the databook, which claims that his hierro is the second strongest in base. I took it to mean that they believed Loly was a high-tier opponent (http://www.mangareader.net/94-797-6/bleach/chapter-343.html).

Absolutely not. Tensa Zangetsu is tons stronger than SBK seeing as how Ichigo deflected all of them (http://www.mangareader.net/94-617-15/bleach/chapter-163.html), and yet it can't cut base Ulquiorra (http://www.mangareader.net/94-795-12/bleach/chapter-341.html). But see what it did to Yammy?

No that just proves Yammy's durability is straight up trash. SBK can't even cut Zommari (http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-4/bleach/chapter-302.html)

Don't know what you're looking at, but all that black stuff on the ground is blood. Seems to me he was cut. If you look at the NEXT PAGE (http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-5/bleach/chapter-302.html) you'll clearly see SBK did in fact 'cut' Zommari.

CeroOskuraz
March 22, 2011, 08:40 PM
... You're showing a pumpkin ball that's bleeding profusely. You just shot yourself in the foot, what the hell. He's clearly cut there. >>

Yeah no, that's his eyes being crushed. Show me a single cut on his body.

And even if you do, somehow reconcile the fact that the shell wasn't damaged at all yet Zommari inside was?

Definitely no cutting going on there.

And even if you proved that, which I'll tell you right now is impossible, how are you going to prove Yammy has better hierro, which is the topic at hand?

Random101
March 22, 2011, 09:05 PM
You mean other than the fact that he's bleeding a metric crapton? The fact that the blades managed to breach the shell and get at his interior which was also bleeding, a feat not possible by simply crushing the exterior? The fact that blood is clearly coming and flowing down from places that are NOT his eye sockets right there on the page you linked, trailing down the entire length of the pumpkin? Or, let's be honest, the fact that blood appearing is how cuts in Bleach are denoted? I mean good lord dude your argument is off before you even set out.

And similarly, databooks are canon. I'll be among the first to have said Yammi's heirro was among the least impressive prior to that happening, hell I argued in favor of Grimmjaw's heirro being vastly superior, and I hold Grimmjaw as one of the least impressive Espada bar #9. However since it's in the databook which was directly written by Kubo, it's his call to make, retarded as it was. I'm not arguing Kubo's statement on that if he's blatant about it. Same as Zommari's being a boast about Sonido, most of the Espada being Vastro Lordes, or that the espada are ranked by reiatsu, as asininely stupid as that was given a VAST number of factors that blatantly say otherwise. At least he gave a goddamn justification for insanely weak cutting powers dealing with him in previous feats, which was the entire basis for his heirro being stupidly weak in the first place. >>

CeroOskuraz
March 22, 2011, 09:35 PM
You mean other than the fact that he's bleeding a metric crapton? The fact that the blades managed to breach the shell and get at his interior which was also bleeding, a feat not possible by simply crushing the exterior?

What do you mean it's not possible by simply crushing the exterior? It was actually impossible for Gokei to get in. Listen, let me explain a very simple concept to you: pressure. Given the same mass (Zommari) and the crushing force of Gokei that gives less volume the density increases, except it can't due to physical constraints, so Zommari leaks. It's really so simple.


The fact that blood is clearly coming and flowing down from places that are NOT his eye sockets right there on the page you linked, trailing down the entire length of the pumpkin? Or, let's be honest, the fact that blood appearing is how cuts in Bleach are denoted? I mean good lord dude your argument is off before you even set out.

Let's establish a few facts:

No cuts are shown on Zommari's body. No wounds are present except for the eyes bleeding. Now, reconcile this with your claim that he was cut. No, you have to address these contradictions before bringing up things like "he's bleeding".


And similarly, databooks are canon. I'll be among the first to have said Yammi's heirro was among the least impressive prior to that happening, hell I argued in favor of Grimmjaw's heirro being vastly superior, and I hold Grimmjaw as one of the least impressive Espada bar #9. However since it's in the databook which was directly written by Kubo, it's his call to make, retarded as it was. I'm not arguing Kubo's statement on that if he's blatant about it.

Good. I'm going to hold you deadly consistent to your word. You know what else is canon? Yammy in base having the second strongest hierro. And you know what else? It sucks and has no feats because he underestimates people.




They did actually give me the hierro argument. I responded by holding them to their source, the databook, which claims that his hierro is the second strongest in base. I took it to mean that they believed Loly was a high-tier opponent (http://www.mangareader.net/94-797-6/bleach/chapter-343.html).

Absolutely not. Tensa Zangetsu is tons stronger than SBK seeing as how Ichigo deflected all of them (http://www.mangareader.net/94-617-15/bleach/chapter-163.html), and yet it can't cut base Ulquiorra (http://www.mangareader.net/94-795-12/bleach/chapter-341.html). But see what it did to Yammy?

No that just proves Yammy's durability is straight up trash. SBK can't even cut Zommari (http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-4/bleach/chapter-302.html)

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 10:05 PM
A few minutes ago? Wasn't that like hours ago? :amuse

Anyhoo, it does look like the eyes are bleeding and no where else, that's weird.....

Did Gokei just crush him until they popped?

ShootToKill
March 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
I didn't even think Gokei was a crushing attack - I thought it was "slashing from every conceivable direction".

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 10:09 PM
I didn't even think Gokei was a crushing attack - I thought it was "slashing from every conceivable direction".

Well either it is or the pumpkin has some crazy good armor on it... Or Kubo is an inconsistent drawer, which is also true.

Random101
March 22, 2011, 10:11 PM
What do you mean it's not possible by simply crushing the exterior? It was actually impossible for Gokei to get in. Listen, let me explain a very simple concept to you: pressure. Given the same mass (Zommari) and the crushing force of Gokei that gives less volume the density increases, except it can't due to physical constraints, so Zommari leaks. It's really so simple.
So he leaks not out of the actual holes he gives himself to move in and out of, but instead the mass that's actually supposed to be solid. Right... >>

You see why your argument is borked yet?



No cuts are shown on Zommari's body. No wounds are present except for the eyes bleeding. Now, reconcile this with your claim that he was cut. No, you have to address these contradictions before bringing up things like "he's bleeding".
Blood Equals cuts in Bleach. Know what I see here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-797-6/bleach/chapter-343.html

Blood, not cuts.

Know what I see here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-15/bleach/chapter-302.html

Blood, not the incredibly massive cut.

Know what I see in that image you linked: http://www.mangareader.net/94-756-4/bleach/chapter-302.html

Blood flowing down the mass not coming from that hole, ie: where it would be if your pressure argument even began to hold water. That's a cut, because that's how Bleach works. >>

Your argument is worse frankly since not only is it not taking into account the cuts already there, discussing his body when his body was defended by the OBVIOUSLY CUT PUMPKIN THING, but also neglects that any cuts that would be there are incredibly tiny because that's how the bankai works. I mean for crying out loud dude, that's just sad.

Also the flaw with your argument here: "Absolutely not. Tensa Zangetsu is tons stronger than SBK seeing as how Ichigo deflected all of them, and yet it can't cut base Ulquiorra. But see what it did to Yammy?"

You're taking Ichigo's cutting power as consistent. Know what Ichigo's shikai was better than before? Right, Kenpachi's Unpached blade's cutting power. Know what his bankai couldn't even begin to cut at full power (LOL CLOAK) in their brief bout? Nnoitra. Know what else? Kenpachi friggin owned Nnoitra's hierro with the patch on. >>

You might have a point with the loly bit... were the Yammi underestimating people thing not in effect. Suffice to say your entirely like of thought is borked. >>

ShootToKill
March 22, 2011, 10:13 PM
Well either it is or the pumpkin has some crazy good armor on it... Or Kubo is an inconsistent drawer, which is also true.
Well it was evidently tougher than Zommari's hierro, hence his hiding inside it :)

Takahashi
March 22, 2011, 10:15 PM
Well it was evidently tougher than Zommari's hierro, hence his hiding inside it :)

Obviously, although it's still strange.

Random101
March 22, 2011, 10:18 PM
Byakuya's petals don't have much cutting power to start with even without heirro. See captain levels not being mincemeat after getting hit by it, ie: Ichigo and Renji (Well Renji was close at least... >>). He has to get a grind going to do crap, ie: What he did to Yammi's face. I do hold the pumpkin mass as cut though, blood starts at the solid edges, not the top, and some had to get through. Crushing doesn't work like that. >>

ShootToKill
March 22, 2011, 10:19 PM
Anyway, "SBK can't even cut Zommari" isn't necessarily true, since he was protected by his pumpkin, and for all we know that might be even tougher than Nnoitra's hierro.

Random101
March 22, 2011, 10:22 PM
He definitely cut, albeit minorly, and it definitely wasn't stronger than that to say the least. Regardless we're getting off the kilter a bit. Suffice to say none of this changes my line of thought regardless. Ichigo at that point was garbage, no if ands or buts. I do hold captain level bankai's should be able to wreck Yammi, because LOL patched Kenpachi, however Ichigo at that point in time had significantly worse feats than patched Kenpachi both in full power bankai and even Masked, which in itself was absurd.

Buzz Killington
March 22, 2011, 10:32 PM
That's because Ichigo hasn't been stacking his power since SS Arc, instead, he's been re-gaining control of it. Hence why SS Arc Ichigo is widely considered the strongest prior to Dangai/FKT Ichigo

Tsukisama
March 22, 2011, 11:56 PM
Ichigo wins! He shall advance on into the Quarter-finals. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny