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redcorpse
March 14, 2011, 02:49 PM
i used the search function (not only here ...) but i couldn't find anything, so i hope you don't mind.

i don't intend to bash him or anything, but does anyone else don't like allen? i talked about this with some friends and we came to the conclusion that we don't like him because he has changed (duh).
at the beginning, i thought he was really sweet and i really liked him, but at some point i realized his character has changed. it's not a heel face turn, but he had slowly changed i think. lenalee also commented on this i think (was after the zombie attack, lol). i would love to explain exactly why i don't like him, but i've forgotten a lot what happened .. and honestly, after the recent chapters, i don't care about dgm as much as i once did anymore ..

so, your opinions? :)

Niko_kun
March 14, 2011, 03:55 PM
i just LOVE allen! He is the best protagonist... he is lovely, friendly, brave, gently... this is my opinion =)

Mango-chan
March 14, 2011, 04:42 PM
Allen has gradually changed since the beginning of the manga, and I think it's something everyone knew could happen when almost from the get-go there was a known conflict of interests between Allen and the Order and the 14th messing with his head.

With that said I can't say I hate the changes, the current Allen Walker has a special blend of true grit and crazy, and has recognized he isn't as open minded as he likes to think he is, from personal experience that can be a pretty miserable thing to realize. ._.

fuff
March 14, 2011, 08:48 PM
i was wondering what is allen personality like now? in the beginning he was the polite nice guy...what is it now?

Niko_kun
March 14, 2011, 09:27 PM
i was wondering what is allen personality like now? in the beginning he was the polite nice guy...what is it now?

I think that he continue the same, but, he has a different point of view about something... like the horrorible things that the Order made before, and how they treat the exorcists. It's a lot of information on his mind, and he has just 15 years! In this fase, he's constructing his personality, and there's a lot of problems. But I believe that he's just the same. =)

earthforge
March 14, 2011, 11:25 PM
I know what you mean, foobar. I liked Allen up to chapter 186 - before the hiatus. I liked how he was getting more down to Earth with his personality, and loved his rejection of the 14th. It made things very interesting.

Afterwards though, it felt he got... more flat. Sure, the Order and the Innocence do horrible things. What else is new? We did have the Suman arc. We did have Leverrier and know the Order is Fascists R Us.

It really culminated in his taking Alma and Kanda away from the battlefield. I could understand Kanda, but Alma? I feel Allen killed his chance of recovering the Thirds right then. Had Alma been destroyed by the Innocence while he was alive, the parts of Alma would be destroyed as well. Well, this is more of a hunch, but makes sense since whenever an akuma is destroyed, the associated smaller parts are also destroyed. Cut the head off and the body will follow. Anyways, then the Thirds could've been recovered instead of becoming soulless tools.

clamche
March 15, 2011, 02:59 AM
Yeah, Allen is not the same anymore after the Kanda arc. I liked his personality and character in the beginning of the series, when things were simple and there was no 14th. Allen was strong and all, but his recent changes...,well , I don't like the way he is acting or thinking. The 14th makes thing even more complicated for Allen, i don't even know which traits of Allen's character are his own and which are from the !4th's influence. Allen was very sweet and funny and serious till the 14th came out. I mean now everything is messed and Allen is a martyr, acting so not-knowing-what-is -the-right-thing-to-do and so drama. I mean it is as if Allen has lost everything he had gained throughout the series.
I still like him, but it is not the same. i hope Allen soon changes and begins to act all cool again. I just want him to do something more Allenish now. I think that the 14th is becoming the main character and Hoshino prefers to develop him more than Allen, who is put on the background.
I loved Allen and I still do, but the thrill is gone. He still remains my N1 and most favorite anime character, but only the old one.

ca12nag3
March 15, 2011, 12:53 PM
You people forget different options about the 14th wich make you look different to Allen as to how he also could be. Explain? ^^

-Allen and 14th are 2 different entities, where the 14th realy is implanted in Allen. In wich case all you say is true about him changing etc etc.

-Allen and 14th are actualy the same person, and the boy *red* is already long gone, Allen simply suffers from amnesia or sideeffect from him returning, he is the 14th. The erosion is simply him learning he aint that boy but the 14th and his entire past as son of Mana and being a exorsist crumbles down.

The last makes him a different person then the boy in wich case a lot of the ways he reacts makes more sense.

Teeba
March 15, 2011, 02:08 PM
I don't know why people are so adamant that Allen as a child is how he "really" is, and that its a good thing that he's slowly reverting back to that personality. His life was incredibly shitty back then, his snark and his brattiness were a result of neglect and child cruelty. While Allen is opening up and becoming more brash and snarky, it is no way because that's how he was as a child. (or at least, I wouldn't want to associate the two together)

To answer foobar's question, I've always loved Allen. And I love how he's grown throughout the manga. He really was a shell of a personality back at the beginning, and Mana's death still hung over him like it had just happened even though it had been 5 years. But when he started opening up with people at the Order and made friends, it gave him a different kind of purpose than before...and that is to live for himself, which is what he has been trying to do ever since.

I think why people feel dissatisfied with Allen's character development is that, he makes us question the Messiah archtype. Unlike a lot of other stories I've read, Allen imposes his Messiah complex on himself. He starts the manga wanting to save the souls of the akuma, but then over the course of the story its gone from akuma, to humans, to even showing sympathy for the Noah! Heck, he flipped out when he thought he killed the Apocryptos! At the same time, Allen has been more prone to getting violently angry. Cross had to stop him when he when ape-shit on the Earl in the Ark. And when Madarao said he wished he could have Allen's eye curse, he almost punched him. It is because Allen's anger and frustration is so very real that it undermines and cancels out any martyr-like qualities he'd like to have.

To answer Ca12nag3's question, I believe the 14th and Allen to be two separate people, though one person can always influence the other.



With that said I can't say I hate the changes, the current Allen Walker has a special blend of true grit and crazy, and has recognized he isn't as open minded as he likes to think he is, from personal experience that can be a pretty miserable thing to realize. ._.

I so did not see this post! I totally agree!

ca12nag3
March 16, 2011, 04:41 AM
I didnt realy ask a question but i stated out that there are 2 options for who and what Allen+14th are/is.

So im not going to jump to conclusions on Allens personality. Being it 2 entities or even 3 or just 1.

Either way Mana,14th,Allen and Crown Clown all affect eachother and it will be increasingly difficult to tell what Allens intentions are.

About what you said Teeba, Allen and 14th might be the same person however the 14th noah essense is a entity as well.

Look at Tyki or Skin Boric for example we clearly saw the 2 entities, the noah-host and the noah-essence. Wisely even explained it.

So to make things a little less complicated i believe Allen to be the 14th and no longer that boy called Red. Also from the Novel comes a clue as well as 2 chapters ago when Cross mentioned the mistake when he called himself Allen... cause Allen isnt the boys name. And he called himself Allen its not that Mana or anyone else started calling him that.

Teeba
March 16, 2011, 11:06 AM
Considering Kanda ended up being an exorcist "refitted" into a younger body, I wouldn't be surprised if the story was something similar with Allen. :P

And yes, you are right about Tyki and Skin, they had two distinct entities that sort of merge together. Allen's Noah is different because to me, it seems like the 14th and Neah are more unified than all the other Noah members we have seen, besides the Earl. It can be argued that because the 14th and Neah have merged together, taking over Allen's body is purely for the sake of coming back from beyond the grave to finish what he started.

I guess my logic is a bit odd, I consider the 14th (or, Noah of Destruction) as noah genes, and Neah as its former host. The two of them combined to form what we consider "the 14th" who is trying to gain control of Allen's body....I've never thought of Neah and Allen being the same person, and if they were the same person, then I don't see how that kind of plotline would resolve itself without Allen erasing his existence as Neah.

I hope that makes sense. :S How I've seen Allen's progression in this manga is a bit personal, it would deeply upset me to find Allen realizing his persona was a lie and then suddenly have to own up to who he was previously (as Neah).

ying_su
March 16, 2011, 12:19 PM
Luckily Allen changed: from a semiwomanchild to a real man, with the consequences of his experiences in his matureness.
I just love him, more now than before...

(You guys know how hard is to present this manga to new people that will surely like it as it is now but need to read the poor art and all the initial cliché ruling in the first chapters??
Please, dont blame me because of what i just said, when i started to read it years ago i simply loved it, but now i read too few mangas and I only continue reading DGM and 2 others.
But DGM has won A LOT and matured --together with Hoshino-sensei, i guess--, since the beginning and Allen is the real proof of it.)

cool_inuyasha_girl
March 16, 2011, 12:38 PM
I always found Allen to be an interesting and unique protagonist. Reason being he is nice, but not all heroic and pure like Goku, his dark side is also hilarious. I also love the fact that he is a Noah, and I like that he is strong but is honestly quite weak at the same time. Many heroes are all powerful and rarely if ever lose or need help from other characters, Allen is strong and still has main character power but he has needed help from just about all of the other characters at one point in time and never did officially beat Tyki (pretty much dying the first time and Cross had to fight Tyki the 2nd).

Dlanor_A.Knox
March 16, 2011, 01:52 PM
I love him! His personality did change but that wouldn't be that strange if you look what he has seen and what happens arround him. I think his personality is quite realistic compaired to characters (from another anime, ofcourse ;3) and he's also a one of a kind.

luna_wolf
March 16, 2011, 10:20 PM
this may sound wierd, but i love the fact that there are times where I realy disagree with what he is doing.
overall i love his character with a fiery passion, and the fact that he makes mistakes and changes over time makes me enjoy his character all the more, because it makes him seem so real.
the way he tries to adapt to an impossible situation of being caught in a three way struggle between the heart, noah and the 14th fasinates me, because its a situation that involves both internal and external disputes and everyone is so narrow minded and stubborn so that is just creates conflict.
i dont know why but all of this combined just makes this manga and allen's character exciting.

Mango-chan
March 16, 2011, 10:41 PM
(You guys know how hard is to present this manga to new people that will surely like it as it is now but need to read the poor art and all the initial cliché ruling in the first chapters??
Please, dont blame me because of what i just said, when i started to read it years ago i simply loved it, but now i read too few mangas and I only continue reading DGM and 2 others.
But DGM has won A LOT and matured --together with Hoshino-sensei, i guess--, since the beginning and Allen is the real proof of it.)

All too well do I know that feeling. The early chapters are like a filter that weeds out people that can't survive the occasional sloppy chapter that don't make any sense. #takescover




@Teeba: But if the Noah of destruction and Neah are separate, what is the name of the Noah of destruction? Unless by some odd chance it's Allen. D:

Teeba
March 17, 2011, 05:20 AM
All too well do I know that feeling. The early chapters are like a filter that weeds out people that can't survive the occasional sloppy chapter that don't make any sense. #takescover

@Teeba: But if the Noah of destruction and Neah are separate, what is the name of the Noah of destruction? Unless by some odd chance it's Allen. D:


LOL I thought the first chapters were kind of sucky too. The pilot was so misleading, the only thing that made me go on to read more was because, holy cow, that's how akuma are made?!?

Well, all the Noah have two names. :oh They have a Noah name, which comes from their genes/memories of their past lives, and they have a human name. Wisely says himself that Tyki and Sheryl repress the Noah genes, which is why they still retain their original names. They are too attached to their human personalities, so to speak.

I guess that for the sake of the story, it doesn't really matter anymore if the 14th Noah and Neah are two separate entities because they have merged and been presented as one. However, because I think the 14th and Neah used to be separate (like the rest of the Noah), Allen's struggle for his body is unique to what everyone else had to go through. Neah, as the host to a new and treachorous Noah, could not guarantee he would be reborn into a new body like the other 13 Noah would be, so he had to imprint someone manually.

Personally, I don't think Allen's past will ever be explained to the point where we know who he is. :lmao At most he'll probably have to accept that he loves his individuality too much to merge with anything - The Noah, the Apocryptos, even to himself (if people believe that he and Neah are the same person).

Sorry, I feel like my opinions change every five seconds. >_<

ca12nag3
March 17, 2011, 01:19 PM
Considering Kanda ended up being an exorcist "refitted" into a younger body, I wouldn't be surprised if the story was something similar with Allen. :P

And yes, you are right about Tyki and Skin, they had two distinct entities that sort of merge together. Allen's Noah is different because to me, it seems like the 14th and Neah are more unified than all the other Noah members we have seen, besides the Earl. It can be argued that because the 14th and Neah have merged together, taking over Allen's body is purely for the sake of coming back from beyond the grave to finish what he started.

I guess my logic is a bit odd, I consider the 14th (or, Noah of Destruction) as noah genes, and Neah as its former host. The two of them combined to form what we consider "the 14th" who is trying to gain control of Allen's body....I've never thought of Neah and Allen being the same person, and if they were the same person, then I don't see how that kind of plotline would resolve itself without Allen erasing his existence as Neah.

I hope that makes sense. :S How I've seen Allen's progression in this manga is a bit personal, it would deeply upset me to find Allen realizing his persona was a lie and then suddenly have to own up to who he was previously (as Neah).

You forget 1 thing, thats this:

Tyki Mik (noah name:joido) noah of pleasure
Cheryl (noah name: Dezaiasu) noah of desires
Jasdevi (noah name: bondemu) noah of bonds
Slin boric (noah name: Raasura) noah of wrath

The only exceptions here are the earl and road, both of them dont seem to have a host name or we dont know it yet. Even tho we have seen them in action.

Now about Nea we only know Nea + noah of destruction... Im just saying its like this

Allen Walker (noah name: nea) noah of destruction.

We also dont know how the noah show themselves inside the hosts minds , weve only seen this with Allen.

(dont bug me bout name spellings btw i just took m from the Viz media translation)

My initial thought is that Allen Walker is not the boy, but the 14th. That the boy is dead. And that thats what Allen was almost seeing and why he went into shock (as in regaining his memories). But thats just a theory ^^

Teeba
March 17, 2011, 08:18 PM
You forget 1 thing, thats this:

Tyki Mik (noah name:joido) noah of pleasure
Cheryl (noah name: Dezaiasu) noah of desires
Jasdevi (noah name: bondemu) noah of bonds
Slin boric (noah name: Raasura) noah of wrath

The only exceptions here are the earl and road, both of them dont seem to have a host name or we dont know it yet. Even tho we have seen them in action.

Now about Nea we only know Nea + noah of destruction... Im just saying its like this

Allen Walker (noah name: nea) noah of destruction.

We also dont know how the noah show themselves inside the hosts minds , weve only seen this with Allen.

(dont bug me bout name spellings btw i just took m from the Viz media translation)

My initial thought is that Allen Walker is not the boy, but the 14th. That the boy is dead. And that thats what Allen was almost seeing and why he went into shock (as in regaining his memories). But thats just a theory ^^

I understand what you're saying. I guess it makes sense, but it sort of simplifies everything for me. Allen is a Noah and an exorcist, and unlike the other Noah members, Allen REALLY doesn't want to accept it. But if Allen is Neah, then how do you explain how the 14th/Neah implanted his memories into...himself? And regressed back into a child?

Essentially what you're saying is that, Allen is not willing to accept that he actually IS Neah, right? Again, what I see happening is that, if this were the case, then Neah would have to accept that he is Allen just as much as Allen is Neah. You cannot say that Allen is "not that boy, but the 14th" without saying that the 14th is Allen too.

Even purely in a theoretical sense, Allen still identifies as being a separate human being, and will continue to do so. Even if his whole existence is just a split personality created by Neah to deal with the trauma of that boy dying, Allen will push himself as being the dominant personality regardless, unless D.Gray-man ends in pure tragedy (which I have a hard time believing). This is because Allen values his personality much more than he has before, and he was willing to go as far as to starve himself just to maintain some level of control on his body. He doesn't want to give up his personality to the 14th Noah, much like how Tyki is reluctant to give him his. Actually, Allen being a split personality to Neah doesn't really change how he's been acting up until now, at least to me. The development of the Allen personality stays exactly the same.

(Though I completely disagree with your theory. With Kanda, we got images of him remembering himself....as himself. Hoshino did this to show that Kanda was remembering who he used to be, not just that it happened. If Allen's case was also related to him having amnesia or not being able to remember who he really was, I think the hints for it would have been more explicit.)

Again, I hope I make sense. xD

ca12nag3
March 18, 2011, 04:12 AM
Im saying that Neah or Nea is the noah essence, and that Allen = the 14th. your seeing Neah as a person yet i see him as the essence.

What makes matters more complicated is that all the noah used to be living beings like humans. Yet they died and reincarnate.

Allen in this case = the 14th. Cross is the only one that talked about eroding and he would become the 14th. Well he never said how and why about the implantation. So its asumable that the boy is aready dead and all that remains is the noah.

What many people want to believe is that the boy (Red) is still Allen. But you do realize that the name Allen comes from the dog mana had. and Allen took on the name Allen after the dog died.

Cross even referenced to it in that flash, he didnt himself Allen *this is a significant clue to who he realy is*

That sentence alone is a mayor clue. The boy, Allen didnt call himself Allen when they first met, and thats correct acording to the novel. In wich he is known as Red-redarm w/e. The dog that was with Mana was named Allen ^^.

What i believe is the mistake Cross is talking about is that he mistook Allen for just a boy with the noah implanted in him, but he might actualy already be the 14th for a while now but suffering from amnesia or w/e.

refr. p17 ch 203

Teeba
March 18, 2011, 06:17 AM
That really cleared up a lot with me. xD I guess we won't know until Hoshino decides to reveal more.

But if you say Neah is the Noah essence/memory of whatever, similar to Skin and Tyki's encounters....how do you separate the Noah memory from the Noah host they occupy? Are you saying that Allen is becoming a Noah just like everyone else - born as the reincarnation of the 14th Noah, but just has forgotten his memories until now?

I still think the mirror looks to both ways. Whether or not Allen was the boy or not, or simply the 14th with a case of amnesia...that still doesn't detract from him being Allen. I know you're saying that, because he never called himself Allen at first, this suggests that the 14th has been there the whole time, but, I guess I don't see how that would impact Allen's personality much? Either way, the 14th is going to have to realize that he has been having these strong Messiah feelings that have totally screwed up his plan for revenge. Again, just as much as Allen needs to accept that he's really the 14th, the 14th is going to accept that at one point, he was Allen, messiah-wannabee.

Ca1nag3, can I ask, how does your theory on who Allen is relate to whether or not Allen's personality change makes him unlikable? I think its really interesting. xD

ca12nag3
March 18, 2011, 07:02 AM
if Allen is realy the 14th all along, and he either forgot or reset. Then it will surely affect his personality, it kinda makes him a infiltrator in the order. It also takes away any posibility of him being stuck in the middle. as a victim.

If hes the boy thats getting taken over by the noah inside him that would clearly mark him as a victim. This might gain him sympathy from some readers that will find it sad/tragical.

(another part of fact is from Hoshinos oneshot, Zone. wich is the prototyp for DGM,

In Zone Robin who is the hero. Is Allen in DGM. She is actualy the akuma inside her brother. Her brother signed a contract with the earl and took him over. Therefor the shell you see is not the boy but his sister inside ^^.

This is partialy played out in the Alma arc where Almas soul is that of the girl. And it might be that the initial part of the person not realy being that person is still in place for Allen. Thus Allen realy is the noah and no longer that boy)

Asclepius
March 18, 2011, 12:33 PM
I still think of Neah as only the musician, not the Noah of destruction.
I have this feeling that he is a second tier Noah, cause those images of the past only show us 12 or 13 noahs (when the Earl is with them), never 14. He is always apart.

But, well, to show some love for Allen, i'm gonna use him in my avatar. And i love him with curly hair (and bandages), so sexy!
:wtf

chilibun
March 22, 2011, 01:08 PM
Yes. I usually hate the prototypical hero characters like Allen, Naruto, etc. Its just feels so unrealistic and irrational at times. They'll jeopardize the world for the sake of self-imposed morals and just can't do what needs to be done. Of course, since its just a manga, everything always works out perfectly. But still, its so irrational and stupid. I much prefer the anti-hero characters like Kanda, Lelouch, Light Yagami (though he can be considered anti-villian depending on how you look at it), etc.

ying_su
March 22, 2011, 02:26 PM
I'm feeling curious now: DOES anyone actually dislike Allen?
I think we need a poll...

earthforge
March 22, 2011, 02:46 PM
First page is all the evidence you need. I liked Allen from the Suman Arc to before the Alma Arc. He was hardening, but then he suddenly fell back to being much more generous. That puzzled me. Why would a character be changing slowly and then suddenly pull back, with no rationale? It culminated in him sending away Kanda and Alma to die. It didn't seem to me as a strong choice, only as naivety.

I understand why people like him. Who doesn't love a guy with a lovely chest who is kind and gentle and yet has the capacity to be such a bad ass over and over? But I just feel like his pull back into being kind and gentle from hardening ruined it for me. Only for me it seems, though.

deleted
March 23, 2011, 02:48 PM
I think that it's pretty much visible. Compared to what Allen was like when the series started it is safe to say that he still was very naive (considering the things that he had already gone through).
He looked at the war in a much too plain way, considering the Order to be the absolute good and the Noahs the seed of evil (which I did at first too ^^; ).
But as the serie progresses he begins to get deeper into those dark secrets of the Order, he sees the suffering around him and was most affected I think by Suman's transformation, his near-death experience, the truth about Neah and Mana (Duh, what else?), the attack on the old HQ, Kanda's past and how the Order or rather Central treated him because of their fear of him.

That doesn't mean that it is totaly the other way around but he understands that there are two sides of a coin. Just like Central has it's sick experiments, the Noah-Clan appears like a family.

And Allen is now beginning to look at those two sides. No matter if Noah or member of the BO.

I don't really think he has that much changed. He just matured.

Naomidee
March 26, 2011, 11:22 AM
Allen Walker from the early chapters is worlds different from these most recent chapters. I like the current Allen worlds better than the old one to be perfectly honest.

Some people say that Allen is "flat" now and that he has less personality than in the first half? I think it's the opposite way around. Allen's initial unwavering politeness was (as the manga itself states) more of a mask than anything else. I do believe that Allen approves of having manners, but I think his gentleman act is just a guise. Underneath, Allen is just a down-to-Earth guy with a hero complex.

I think his hero complex comes from not having any true, lasting friendships up until he joined the Order. He never really had parents, so that leaves a huge possibility for becoming detached... I think the undying and almost annoying politeness from the beginning is a sign of that inability to deeply connect with anyone. As Allen develops (or perhaps, just reveals) his true character, we see him become less formal and more comfortable with his friends like Lenalee and Johnny... Hell, even Kanda. And that's where the hero complex comes in. Now that he's finally found companionship torn down a bit of his shield, he feels a overcoming need to protect the people that are precious to him.

For some reason, I haven't REALLY seen Allen let his guard down around Lavi. (I don't count the fight in the Ark as really connecting with Lavi...) I think the reason being is that Allen realizes Lavi has ulterior motives, being a Bookman. I'm hoping to see their wall come down in the future chapters.

Ultimately, I think Allen has many dimensions now as opposed to this initial "nice guy" gig. We see him fighting and eventually trying to understand the so-called evil Noah inside his head. We see him emotionally exploding at the Apocrypho when he learns what happened to Cross. In the end, Allen always stands his own ground reguardless of what the Order believes and what the Noah believe. That's what makes him the best candidate for the third side: not letting The Black Order or the Noah Clan dictate his thought any longer.

Sorry. Loooooooooong x_x

yukilove21
March 27, 2011, 01:25 PM
Allen, personally, is my favorite character, after Kanda.
I agree with Naomidee.

You really can't keep your personality intact when you are in a war. It changes you.

Allen is wearing a 'mask'. A mask that hides his true self. That's what Lena was pointing out in volume 17. (Is that right?)

He has been through a lot too. (So has Kanda, Lavi, and Lenalady, but still :darn.) Living without parents, living in the circus where no one liked him, living with a crazy Mana who thought he was a dog, Having seen Mana die, then having to go live with Cross, then he joined the Order. Yeah, it's just FINE for his personality to change.

(Sorry if I am snarky, I just woke up.)

CloudStrifeACC
April 28, 2013, 04:20 AM
I definitely agree with you all the way. I had exactly the same feeling. When I started with the series, I was really obsessed. Infact, I'm still obsessed with the earlier part of the series. But after the part where Crown Clown was innovated , I instantly lost my interest. Allen has really changed, in my opinion, he isn't unique anymore like he was when he was really kind and gentle. He is just another typical-badass-manga-protagonist now. I wouldn't call this change character development. It's more like character distortion. I even hate the change in his appearance. I feel his initial design was really decent and pretty.
I really wish, we could have our real Allen back.....

---------- Post added at 12:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------


Yeah, Allen is not the same anymore after the Kanda arc. I liked his personality and character in the beginning of the series, when things were simple and there was no 14th. Allen was strong and all, but his recent changes...,well , I don't like the way he is acting or thinking. The 14th makes thing even more complicated for Allen, i don't even know which traits of Allen's character are his own and which are from the !4th's influence. Allen was very sweet and funny and serious till the 14th came out. I mean now everything is messed and Allen is a martyr, acting so not-knowing-what-is -the-right-thing-to-do and so drama. I mean it is as if Allen has lost everything he had gained throughout the series.
I still like him, but it is not the same. i hope Allen soon changes and begins to act all cool again. I just want him to do something more Allenish now. I think that the 14th is becoming the main character and Hoshino prefers to develop him more than Allen, who is put on the background.
I loved Allen and I still do, but the thrill is gone. He still remains my N1 and most favorite anime character, but only the old one.

Same here! I love the 'old' Allen. But I can't say much about the 'new' one. Damn I really miss the old Allen...

capricorn
April 28, 2013, 07:50 PM
A "typical manga badass protagonist?" Do you care to elaborate on how exactly? Character distortion even? I hope you know that you don't make those type of statements without solid explanation. Especially when you're going to disrespect such a well developed character. Also how does him being nice and gentlemanly make him unique in anyway whatsoever especially considering that the nice and gentlemanly aspects were never really his personality to begin with? How does a character's gradual change due to the increasingly complex developments and conflicts in his life considered a bad thing for a story? If Allen had stayed the same throughout the entire series regardless of whatever trials he was going through, then that would mean he hadn't gone through any meaningful development at all. It was also mean that he is an incredibly 2 dimensional and generic character which actually rivals to your reasoning. How many times have you read this manga even? Every stage of Allen's development to the way he is now was very evident and continues to be evident within every mode of introspection the dude goes through. Aesthetic appearance is relative, Allen has changed several times in terms of appearance depending on the drawing style. Finally, if your judgement of an entire series is just based on such a shallow assessment of one character, that's really sad.

CloudStrifeACC
April 29, 2013, 03:56 AM
Woah, calm down. I didn't mean to upset you or anything. I will explain my view in more details but I doubt you will get it since you look so vehement about your own perspective.

How does him being nice and gentlemanly make him unique in anyway
Alright for the part where I said that 'gentleman' type are unique is because you don't really find that trait in modern heroes anymore. Think about Naruto, Edward and hell even Kira from Death Note (if you consider him a 'hero'). When I started this series I was really amazed by the way he was behaving despite all the tragic things that happened to him in the past.

Especially considering that the nice and gentlemanly aspects were never really his personality to begin with
I beg to differ, Allen was absolutely kind in the beginning, theres no denying to that part. Couz if he wasn't then where's the change or the 'complex character' you support? Also he was indeed naïve in the beginning which led him to follow simple acts of righteousness.

How does a character's gradual change due to the increasingly complex developments and conflicts in his life considered a bad thing for a story
Completely agree, generally audience (and so do I) prefer the protagonist to be dynamic compare to flat characters. The characters must develop more realistic approach to world after facing numerous ordeals. But was it really that way in Allen's case? Allen did not only change his worldly views but also his whole persona itself (Though I partly blame his multiple alter egos for that).

How many times have you read this manga even?
I would be perfectly honest and tell you not even once. But hey that's exactly why I'm here. I wanted to find out if anyone else dropped it like me and I found this thread which perfectly defined my reason.

Allen has changed several times in terms of appearance depending on the drawing style. Finally, if your judgement of an entire series is just based on such a shallow assessment of one character, that's really sad.
I don't really understand what you mean by that, but speaking of appearance its upsetting to see 'alot' of changes. I mean who in the world goes through this number of changes within a year unless he/she is some kind of fashion geek or something! When you're almost done accepting his 'newlook' he changes it again. If it wasn't for his cool scar on his face I wouldn't even recognize him!

I reckon that my perspective are totally different from yours, but I can't really help that, can I? And I don't mean to lash out on anyone who is actually enjoying the manga (You're lucky). I'm just grieving for my own shortcomings. I would like to know if theres any other similar manga I could try, because I don't really think I would really be able to continue this one (It hurts when they bring up the same things in a whole new light).:oh

capricorn
April 29, 2013, 07:44 AM
I wasn't upset at you I was really just pointing out that if you're going to criticizer something do it with a clear knowledge of the material or at the very least expound on your views instead of just leaving such shallow comments here and there. My last comment on his appearance is simple, if the drawing style changes then naturally the character looks slightly different in each one. Starting from the start of the series it was a gradual change, he didn't just move from point A to B overnight.

Also your point about Allen being absolutely kind despite all the challenges he's faced in the beginning is false. One of the major developments Allen had to go through was to figure out the value of friends and the human race. The very moments before he got crown clown and clown's edge, this was confirmed when he had to come to the reality that he could no longer fight the love he has for his friends or the responsibilities he had to the human race in order to fulfill his promise to Mana. The relevance of the change Allen went through had nothing to do with him being a "gentleman". The change that Allen has gone through is particularly the adjustments (not changes) that he's made to his resolve and worldly views. You make it sound like he's become some sort of egotistic, loudmouth jerk. Sure he's more expressive now but that's only him being true to his "Real Self" not the "fake gentleman" that Kanda has described. Allen is still kind and generous even up to the point that you quit the series so I really don't see what you're even talking about. I don't see where he's really that much less of a gentleman, but I can see why he's less of a "fake gentleman" who hides behind the mask of a dead man to convince himself that he is destined for some shallow fate. Current Allen recognizes the increasing complexities of the conflicts he's dealing with and recognizes more and more how naive he has been to deny himself, his "true self" when in fact it was this denial in self that has caused so much conflict to build up in the first place.

CloudStrifeACC
April 30, 2013, 05:17 AM
I don't recall calling his change abrupt or sudden (Except his appearance, it's kinda changing faster now). He did change really gradually but then there came a point when I couldn't even remember who he was! His kindness, sure it's still there, but that kind of kindness, self-sacrificing and other things are common in most of the heroes. What I really felt unique about his humbleness has almost completely vanished. And also all his 'realization' of being fake and stuff are also a part of the change. And about his realization at innovating Crown Clown was pretty....baffling. I thought he already 'was' fighting for Mana's sake not to save world (because he never said he is fighting for that reason, he always mentioned his promise to Mana instead). And if you wanna know why he looks loud-mouthed to me, just check out all the arguments he had with Kanda in the series, Allen just keeps getting so different that I started siding with Kanda whom I hated initially. Truth to be told, I mainly liked Allen in the beginning but now I like almost everyone except him.
I might continue the series couz I don't think you'll stop criticizing me unless I do. But the chances I would be convinced with your idea look 0.01% to me. Like I said before, I don't hate the fact he changed , I hate the 'way' he changed. Sure as the protagonist he was bond to change someday, but I didn't expect it to be this way.
P.S: I don't see how leaving an abridged paragraph of your thoughts can be rude or 'shallow'.

earthforge
April 30, 2013, 10:18 AM
I wasn't upset at you I was really just pointing out that if you're going to criticizer something do it with a clear knowledge of the material or at the very least expound on your views instead of just leaving such shallow comments here and there.

With all due respect: relax. This person was expressing their views, just like you. Don't scream at her for being short. There is greater value in being concise.


Also your point about Allen being absolutely kind despite all the challenges he's faced in the beginning is false. One of the major developments Allen had to go through was to figure out the value of friends and the human race. The very moments before he got crown clown and clown's edge, this was confirmed when he had to come to the reality that he could no longer fight the love he has for his friends or the responsibilities he had to the human race in order to fulfill his promise to Mana. The relevance of the change Allen went through had nothing to do with him being a "gentleman". The change that Allen has gone through is particularly the adjustments (not changes) that he's made to his resolve and worldly views. You make it sound like he's become some sort of egotistic, loudmouth jerk. Sure he's more expressive now but that's only him being true to his "Real Self" not the "fake gentleman" that Kanda has described. Allen is still kind and generous even up to the point that you quit the series so I really don't see what you're even talking about. I don't see where he's really that much less of a gentleman, but I can see why he's less of a "fake gentleman" who hides behind the mask of a dead man to convince himself that he is destined for some shallow fate.

He still has the martyr complex, so he doesn't seem to have grown out of his worst attribute. He still doesn't seem to have learned right place/right time for things. Get a feeling that's meant for a Lavi arc, but Lavi has been gone for so long it's doubtful if we'll see him meet up with Allen in even five years time.

Allen's interactions with other characters is what makes him Allen. We've had so much Allen and Kanda contact, and it's been dreafully dull because is just "bakanda" and "moyashi" yelling, with very little nuance on how things have changed. Kanda is indebted to Allen, but can't he still be unhappy with him for a good reason?

Reminds me: what is with Kanda and the Order? He keeps bouncing back and forth, as if the Order has a rubber band connecting him to them.


Current Allen recognizes the increasing complexities of the conflicts he's dealing with and recognizes more and more how naive he has been to deny himself, his "true self" when in fact it was this denial in self that has caused so much conflict to build up in the first place.

Tbh, he doesn't have much of a character right now. He is just oversensitive to his friends appearing nearby and terrified of losing them - which is a regression to during the Ark Arc and even during the Clock Arc. But we don't hear his own thoughts or feelings. We don't hear about the little bits of info that makes characters fun either (his fondness of mitarashi dango and appetite, his debt-fear, etc.) Little bits of info help make characters real. Allen just hasn't seemed real of late.

capricorn
April 30, 2013, 04:11 PM
Relax? Don"t shout? Could you please point out the imaginary exclamation sign seeing as though you can clearly hear the voice of the commenter through words they've typed on a forum. Yes daw, I know a forum is for expressing views which is what I sorta did. I even emphasized that I was not upset at her in like the very first sentence (but clearly you are more skilled at seeing imaginery exclamation points), so what is your point exactly? If you are too sensitive to hearing another persons contrasting views then why bother comment.I'm not forcing anyone to read the manga or to take my side. All I was asking for was an actual explanation using ther material as to why she says what she says. But clearly both of you don't have much of a solid knowledge of the material itself and simply impose your general views on the series to make a point.

earthforge
April 30, 2013, 04:33 PM
Relax? Don"t shout? Could you please point out the imaginary exclamation sign seeing as though you can clearly hear the voice of the commenter through words they've typed on a forum. Yes daw, I know a forum is for expressing views which is what I sorta did. I even emphasized that I was not upset at her in like the very first sentence (but clearly you are more skilled at seeing imaginery exclamation points), so what is your point exactly? If you are too sensitive to hearing another persons contrasting views then why bother comment.I'm not forcing anyone to read the manga or to take my side. All I was asking for was an actual explanation using ther material as to why she says what she says.

You're right, I can't hear your voice. Maybe you weren't shouting. But I am disappointed that you would welcome a new member with such vitriol. You accused her of being shallow, character distortion, and generally being a lesser fan. That's neither kind nor true.


But clearly both of you don't have much of a solid knowledge of the material itself and simply impose your general views on the series to make a point.

A. Dude. We are all fans here. You are not the mangaka. None of us have the authority to assert "solid knowledge".
B. Please don't use a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

capricorn
April 30, 2013, 06:38 PM
I didn't call her shallow, but her comments sounded pretty shallow because she didn't have any explanations as to the kind of critical statements being made. I never made any direct attacks at the person.Most of what you're arguing sounds pretty hypocritical coming from you as you are indeed guilty of the same thing that you are criticizing. More than often your comments are presumptuous to say the least and it is as if you believe you are Hoshino herself. You seem to have a tendency to try to instill connotations in someone else's comment that wasn't really there. Perhaps the problem here is that you are just too sensitive. Most of my comments had meant no disrespect, but you seem to interpret them in a way that is only convenient to your cause (whatever that is). I don't recall when I called her a lesser fan and you clearly misinterpreted the context in which I used the expression "character distortion" (she was the one who brought up the term I was only questioning the usage of such a term to describe Allen). My last comment was an attack at the level of practicality of your criticisms as applied to the series at current. I don't know or care about whatever the hell "No true Scotsman" fallacy is but I was not assuming the position of the manga. As for your talk about the relevance of aspects like Allen's debt crisis and the other things that make Allen's character fun. How did Johnny find Allen in the first place? Its as if you completely disregard things that aren't supportive of your argument just so you can make a criticism.These things have been explored in recent chapters. Something doesn't have to be emphasized in every chapter for it to still be a part of the character. Especially when there are many more important issues to deal with at current. What time does Allen really have to mess around with things outside the focus of the current story arc? Alot of the things you're criticizing really doesn't take into consideration the current events at all.

The point also still stands that I do not care if you hate Allen or this series. But if you are going to criticize do it based on what is relevant to the series and not the fact that you're upset that a mere aspect pleasing to your preference is not a major feature. I'm sorry if I came across as disrespectful but honestly I don't really see what you're getting so uppity about.

earthforge
April 30, 2013, 08:17 PM
I didn't call her shallow, but her comments sounded pretty shallow because she didn't have any explanations as to the kind of critical statements being made. I never made any direct attacks at the person.

Calling her comments shallow is an attack.


Most of what you're arguing sounds pretty hypocritical coming from you as you are indeed guilty of the same thing that you are criticizing. More than often your comments are presumptuous to say the least and it is as if you believe you are Hoshino herself.

Not so much as of late. I'm only stating my views of the character arcs. I think that they've suffered some problems. But those are my thoughts. I'm not calling your comments shallow.


You seem to have a tendency to try to instill connotations in someone else's comment that wasn't really there.

Okay, so I will quote your original comment so it is preserved.


[...] I was really just pointing out that if you're going to criticizer something do it with a clear knowledge of the material or at the very least expound on your views instead of just leaving such shallow comments here and there.

So basically you said she left a shallow comment and had no clear knowledge of the source material. You persisted in that accusation against her, and then stated that I have no idea of the source material (despite how I'm pretty certain Hoshino hasn't released any new chapters recently.)


Perhaps the problem here is that you are just too sensitive.

Not exactly. I just don't like people bullying others for not seeing as they do - specifically for a manga.


My last comment was an attack at the level of practicality of your criticisms as applied to the series at current. I don't know or care about whatever the hell "No true Scotsman" fallacy is but I was not assuming the position of the manga. As for your talk about the relevance of aspects like Allen's debt crisis and the other things that make Allen's character fun. How did Johnny find Allen in the first place?

My point is that there's not a lot of little things brought up in context. In that case, the little thing was turned into a plot device. That's fine, but aren't there other little things that need to be addressed? Like how, despite his excessive appetite, Allen wasn't tracked directly by the Order immediately? Who can even make all that food?

Plus, these are all quirks that were introduced at the very beginning, but there haven't been a lot of new quirks added lately. I've felt like the fun is either recycled or swapped out for excessive drama. I think that too much drama can cheapen the story and make it lose luster.


Its as if you completely disregard things that aren't supportive of your argument just so you can make a criticism.

That's hasty. You didn't even allow me to make a response before you made that judgement call.


Especially when there are many more important issues to deal with at current. What time does Allen really have to mess around with things outside the focus of the current story arc? Alot of the things you're criticizing really doesn't take into consideration the current events at all.

Sometimes a little bit of real life and humanity can bring fresh air into a story despite the problems. It makes the characters more valued because they act like human beings instead of caricatures.


The point also still stands that I do not care if you hate Allen or this series.

Whoa there! I never said I hated Allen or the series.


But if you are going to criticize do it based on what is relevant to the series and not the fact that you're upset that a mere aspect pleasing to your preference is not a major feature.

Preference dictates our views of the story. So yeah, multiple views are allowed here.


I'm sorry if I came across as disrespectful but honestly I don't really see what you're getting so uppity about.

It's simple: don't bully a newcomer.

CloudStrifeACC
May 01, 2013, 12:33 AM
Whatever you say bro, you're still missing my point. It's true it was decided that gentlemen manner was a mask Allen was wearing but do you recall when was that? It was about 4yrs after the first Chapter. Now it really doesn't look like Katsura Hoshino had the idea of the gentlemen mask all the way before she started her production. Or maybe she did (which is unlikely) couz you're right I'm not Katsura Hoshino if I was, I wouldn't be here.
Anyways, I'm sure you must be still reading the manga but I think I had enough. I was only curious to find out others opinion before I dropped out which I have ,thanks to you. (Now I would probably go on hunt for similar series...)


Preference dictates our views of the story. So yeah, multiple views are allowed here.
.
Thank you very much for showing neutrality. I was preparing to be crushed by hordes of fans!

kannazuki
May 01, 2013, 12:54 AM
Hi, CloudStrife. You're not much newer than me here, but welcome to the forums. :)

First, I just want to point out Allen hasn't completely lost his Mana-inherited gentlemanly side, even if he stopped using the overly polite Japanese that no one in real life uses except with strangers and social superiors. :p (Language was what Lenalee and Johnny were talking about when they said he was "less polite," not how he acts around people. Even the Third Exorcists, whom he later admitted he almost hated, were treated with respect. Kanda (comedy) and Tyki Mikk (enemy), are probably the only definite exceptions that I know of; possibly other Noah as well, and maaaybe also Cross. In addition he's always been a little sassy at times-- from early on, he'd talk back to people (Komui in particular) if he thought things were getting out of hand. Definitely whenever his master came up (or appeared in person, lol). Hence the "Dark Allen" thing, which we first heard of when we saw him cheating at cards on the train, way back when. \

Best example of gentlemanly Allen in the entire series imho: An akuma was cursing at poor Miranda (build-up to the Alma arc), & he reprimanded it about treating a lady like that.

And about his realization at innovating Crown Clown was pretty....baffling. I thought he already 'was' fighting for Mana's sake not to save world (because he never said he is fighting for that reason, he always mentioned his promise to Mana instead).Can you explain what you find confusing there? It sounds like you believe he contradicts himself there, but I don't know why you'd think that. I'll explain his little epiphany there in hope that it helps;

Allen says himself he was fighting for the akuma all along, and that's exactly what he was doing because he himself turned Mana into an akuma and he'll forever carry the guilt of doing so. Back during the Aria (Martel) arc, he told Kanda that he had no one precious to him. No living humans. He explained at the time that that was even the reason he was willing to possibly throw his life away for anybody in front of him. Well by the point of CC's reactivation, he does have people he cares dearly about. (I think the very best show of that is how emotional he was while playing the piano on the Ark and wishing for everyone's return.)

Anyway, at that point in the story, he's realized that he has specific, living humans that he wants to be able to protect. Increasingly since he joined the Order, he realizes, the ones he's been fighting for were more the humans by his side than the akuma he's always sought to save. When he went to resync with his innocence after Tyki destroyed it, it didn't like that he hadn't resolved that shift yet. But once his heart was no longer clouded with confusion over the false dichotomy of fighting for either akuma or humans-- once he properly understood he could simply do both, he finally achieved a clarity that pleased CC enough for it to consider him "worthy" again.

I might continue the series couz I don't think you'll stop criticizing me unless I do. But the chances I would be convinced with your idea look 0.01% to me. Like I said before, I don't hate the fact he changed , I hate the 'way' he changed. Sure as the protagonist he was bond to change someday, but I didn't expect it to be this way.
P.S: I don't see how leaving an abridged paragraph of your thoughts can be rude or 'shallow'.I don't think it's fair to say capricorn "won't stop criticizing" you. That's a bit provocative, don't you think? Deciding in advance you won't consider someone's argument isn't so constructive either. In any case, I think you and earth forge have really misunderstood what he said. I don't think you did so on purpose though, so please don't take this as some kind of accusation.

He may have attacked your ideas (also known as debate) but I didn't see anything there to take personally. Disagreement with a person is not disapproval of that person. Calling your appraisal of Allen shallow is not calling you shallow. Etc., etc. If you disagree that your appraisal is shallow then the best thing to do is to support what you say, which you began to do in this post I'm quoting, so great. Maybe it would be better in future if you want to keep things short not to omit all supports for your comments but to shorten them. Not providing any evidence/examples whatsoever implies your opinion was simply arbitrarily decided upon based on your personal feelings and not an examination of the text (either anime or manga).


Allen's interactions with other characters is what makes him Allen. We've had so much Allen and Kanda contact, and it's been dreafully dull because is just "bakanda" and "moyashi" yelling, with very little nuance on how things have changed. Kanda is indebted to Allen, but can't he still be unhappy with him for a good reason?Gotta disagree here. :p There was a really great subtext to how things changed between them if you look back to just after it was announced that Allen was host for the 14th. Their squabbles prior to that were harmless comedy, but from that point on, not only was Allen getting a severe cold shoulder, but he had to apologize to Miranda for Kanda yelling at her because, he claimed, Kanda was really "angry" at him. But things weren't so simple as that. The pained look on Allen's face when he reassures Miranda is a tip-off that things are no longer as they once were. Miranda's not oblivious either; this was a new thing for her to see happen. Soon she was even giving Allen candy to try to cheer him up. If you look at Kanda's history (including the fact it was so hard for him to take the sight of Tapp dying as a Skull that he literally ran away), it's evident the idea of possibly having to kill someone he considers a friend is too painful for him to even contemplate. It's the same reason he shut down and stopped thinking during the Alma arc (even calling Alma an "it" and Allen a "damn Noah" as if they weren't also his human friends). Now Kanda's so extremely grateful that he's been trying to find ways to talk to Allen, though it's not coming easy to him (because of his own gruff nature). In 215 he got mad at Allen for NOT chatting with him, and in 217 one of the most important things to him was to have a special talk with Allen (which was what he was half-assedly trying to do in 215).

Reminds me: what is with Kanda and the Order? He keeps bouncing back and forth, as if the Order has a rubber band connecting him to them.Good question. Although I'm not settled on it, I've always assumed (a) he lacks a sense of place in the world, knowing what he is, and the Order is (emotionally) "safe" and familiar-- the devil he knows, and (b) the inexplicable sense of duty all exorcists except Suman Dark shared.


Calling her comments shallow is an attack.I just want to point out as someone somewhat familiar with proper debate that it's not an attack on the person herself for him to call her ideas into question for lacking support. When someone states an opinion in a manner that gives others the impression that the opinion is considered to be fact, other people are going to tend to want to draw attention to assumptions they believe are incorrect. That's just human nature.

Also, iirc, the "True Scotsman" fallacy is when someone goes "only people who ______ can truly understand X." I don't recall capricorn doing that. *will go to check after*
*edit*
I was close: It's when someone claims that a person or thing is not what the person claims (it) to be because that person or thing wouldn't have or lack a certain characteristic (e.g. a "true Scotsman" drinks scotch).


Not exactly. I just don't like people bullying others for not seeing as they do - specifically for a manga.I don't think he was bullying her though and I know there are others I don't even know (this thread has drawn some attention, lol) who don't think so either.


Like how, despite his excessive appetite, Allen wasn't tracked directly by the Order immediately? Who can even make all that food?The bartender in 210 didn't dare admit he'd seen Allen before for fear of gangster reprisal (for holding out on them), remember? I imagine he ate at establishments like those. He probably even divided meals up amongst several different ones a day, so as to (a) keep moving, and (b) keep his con games going.

Plus, these are all quirks that were introduced at the very beginning, but there haven't been a lot of new quirks added lately. I've felt like the fun is either recycled or swapped out for excessive drama. I think that too much drama can cheapen the story and make it lose luster.There's still plenty of humour, but if you don't enjoy Tyki being upset Allen didn't notice him, Kanda drinking from Lenalee's palm to get a rise out of everyone, Kanda getting hit on by random guys on the street, Allen eavesdropping/hiding from Kanda and Johnny while dressed as a clown, Allen & Kanda's complicated friendship, or the haunting of Allen by Science Division devices even after he's escaped from the Order, then maybe it's just not the kind of humour you like. :(

earthforge
May 01, 2013, 11:13 AM
He may have attacked your ideas (also known as debate)

That's still an attack. Either be sensible in addressing the opponent's concerns or forget the whole enterprise. I do not like it when people jump on others.


Maybe it would be better in future if you want to keep things short not to omit all supports for your comments but to shorten them. Not providing any evidence/examples whatsoever implies your opinion was simply arbitrarily decided upon based on your personal feelings and not an examination of the text (either anime or manga).

Ah, victim blaming. Gotta love it.


Gotta disagree here. :p There was a really great subtext to how things changed between them if you look back to just after it was announced that Allen was host for the 14th. Their squabbles prior to that were harmless comedy,

I got a sense early on that Kanda was angry with Allen because Allen reminded him of someone he once knew who was possibly deceased. That seemed to be justified with the Alma arc. I did not mind that. Liked how it linked together.

I'll agree with you about the Alma arc, but I don't know how Kanda got over how Allen still reminds him of Alma. How can things go back to the way they were? I can understand Kanda being grateful, but I don't really get why he isn't still reminded of Alma.


Good question. Although I'm not settled on it, I've always assumed (a) he lacks a sense of place in the world, knowing what he is, and the Order is (emotionally) "safe" and familiar-- the devil he knows, and (b) the inexplicable sense of duty all exorcists except Suman Dark shared.

Yeah. I can understand him returning once. But twice? It's like leaving the house to go on a vacation and returning because someone forgot a towel. I get the sense that it's as if Hoshino wanted to do something last minute.


I just want to point out as someone somewhat familiar with proper debate that it's not an attack on the person herself for him to call her ideas into question for lacking support. When someone states an opinion in a manner that gives others the impression that the opinion is considered to be fact, other people are going to tend to want to draw attention to assumptions they believe are incorrect. That's just human nature.

Don't use "human nature" to justify jerkish behavior. It is your job and capricorn's job to convey your ideas with care.


Also, iirc, the "True Scotsman" fallacy is when someone goes "only people who ______ can truly understand X." I don't recall capricorn doing that.

Actually I was preemptively warning him not to do that, because I have encountered that a lot lately in the DGM section. It's very disappointing, because I used to frequent this section all the time. It used to be very friendly here. Now... not so much.


The bartender in 210 didn't dare admit he'd seen Allen before for fear of gangster reprisal (for holding out on them), remember? I imagine he ate at establishments like those. He probably even divided meals up amongst several different ones a day, so as to (a) keep moving, and (b) keep his con games going.

Possibly. But you might be reading too much when not a lot of info was given.


There's still plenty of humour, but if you don't enjoy Tyki being upset Allen didn't notice him, Kanda drinking from Lenalee's palm to get a rise out of everyone, Kanda getting hit on by random guys on the street, Allen eavesdropping/hiding from Kanda and Johnny while dressed as a clown, Allen & Kanda's complicated friendship, or the haunting of Allen by Science Division devices even after he's escaped from the Order, then maybe it's just not the kind of humour you like. :(

Possibly. I just get the feeling that something went missing between the Alma and Escape arcs to now. It came back in the 14th flashback, but still is largely missing. The fun is underplayed a lot, a servant of the drama. I feel like that undercuts strong drama.

Though I did like the Science Div devices comment. Callbacks are great.

ca12nag3
May 01, 2013, 07:15 PM
Wasnt this topic about *if anyone else dislikes Allen?/Or not?*

Why has it turned into a pissing contest?

Sorry but this is just drama for the drama. If said person dislikes Allen for reasons of her own let her be. Even so someones opinion is their opinion, read it and be done with it. Also to said girl you dont drop a series just because some guy rages at you. Its no excuse.

Back to the fundamentals, Allen was and is a changing character from the get go, its logical that his nature changes during the story. Why? Well its obvious he has a messed up youth, a near akumafication with his stepdad, and seemingly got some noah in his head. Who took up permanent residence. Another part is the guy is a lot older then he apears to be and seemingly reverted his age. So not only that but he used to be a supporter of the 14th. Another part is that of which his sole relative Mana left for him to keep going, which Road confirmed for him. This is his only hold-on to some sanity.

If thats not all he also has his Innocence attached to him, it is part of his body and affects his personality. Its not like he can put it in some drawer and forget about it for a while. It would make him a fallen if something goes wrong. So this clearly will always affect his choices down the line.

What does all this tell us about him? Well he has a lot more to worry about making his decisions in life, hes by far the most complex character in this story and dare say in manga i know of. Its not a easy character to like in the long run if your looking for your simple knight in shining armor, or your Zero (code geass reference).
Hes a bit of both and different too at the same time. He is unique. To me hes a far more likable character, he has his flaws makes heaps of dubious decisions but it makes him approachable.

As for the manga as a whole. I love it from the start. I advocate people to read it whole before judging it. Catch up to the last chapter and decide for yourself if it suits you, but be warned its not a easy read.

IBA: Where i got my knowledge and information? Well i own all volumes released 23 so far and even got the Noche artbook. And now and then reread the entire series. Love to do it before sleeping.

kannazuki
May 01, 2013, 08:17 PM
That's still an attack. Either be sensible in addressing the opponent's concerns or forget the whole enterprise. I do not like it when people jump on others.capricorn clearly referenced *ideas* only in that first reply. If "attacking ideas" sounds too harsh to you, then I'll put it differently: he challenged the premises for CloudStrife' assumptions. Again, that's just debate. I have yet to see why you believe someone saying another person's comments are weakly supported is supposed to be a personal insult. If you don't like when people "jump on others" then how about giving capricorn the benefit of the doubt for his original comments? He explained that he didn't intend any harm. It's been painful to read how this thread has progressed since this misunderstanding began. There's no need to find a "bully" and a "victim" where neither exists.


Ah, victim blaming. Gotta love it."Victim" blaming??? I was shedding light on part of the source of a misunderstanding so such a situation can be avoided in future. The funny thing about misunderstandings between two people is that no one is really to blame.

CloudStrife apparently perceived she was under attack, and in response she got defensive. capricorn too got defensive after you outright accused him of a bunch of things he very clearly didn't do. Perhaps it was not on purpose but you did make those accusations. I can empathize with both if I put myself in their shoes, but I don't think either of them should have lashed out (and make no mistake: both of them did at different points). That's why between the two of them, I see no "victim" and no "bully," but two equals who had a misunderstanding which can only be aggravated and never resolved by making one of them out to be the villain.

If it's okay with you for CloudStrife as a "victim" to lash out emotionally when she feels like she's under attack instead of seeking a better understanding, then let capricorn do the same, because intentionally or not, he was also "victimized" by you. Both of them felt "under attack" and became indignant for those respective misunderstandings but you're only empathizing with one of them and I find that unfair.


I got a sense early on that Kanda was angry with Allen because Allen reminded him of someone he once knew who was possibly deceased. That seemed to be justified with the Alma arc. I did not mind that. Liked how it linked together.Interesting. I didn't get that sense at first, myself, but it's possible. Either way, neither truly meant the other any harm (either emotionally or physically) from the time Allen tried to shake Kanda's hand until it was announced he was the 14th. Kanda had issues to get over to be sure but we'll probably never know how consciously they affected his behaviour. Allen, on the other hand, had no idea what Kanda was thinking. He just kinda went with the flow.

If I detail it a bit, the progression of their relationship went...Kanda literally tries to kill Allen --> Kanda is too stubborn to give Allen a chance (just his nature really) --> Kanda is impressed by Allen in Mater, updates his opinion on him, and even protects his life --> they become established rivals --> Allen makes half-assed attempts at getting Kanda to socialize more --> More trust & rivalry --> Trust is damaged (for Kanda) when Allen is revealed to be the 14th --> Kanda's creeping mistrust (subconscious confusion & pain) brought to a climax when Kanda finally stabs Allen w/ innocence --> immediate regret for Kanda as he learns he's fulfilled Noahs' plan --> Allen sends Kanda & Alma back to Mater --> post-Alma, Kanda obvs feels indebted (and admits it to Johnny in 210 I believe) --> Kanda tells Link to back off; he's the one who's going to kill the 14th... but after he saves Johnny's life specifically for Allen's sake, he's undeniably happy (look at his face!) when Johnny sees in Allen eyes that he hasn't given up yet.

I think it can be argued that now, he's not just acting out of a feeling he's "honour-bound" to kill the 14th (like each time Alma became a "monster"), but because he truly cares & wants his friend to survive, so he'll *actively* do what he can to make it happen. :)


I'll agree with you about the Alma arc, but I don't know how Kanda got over how Allen still reminds him of Alma. How can things go back to the way they were? I can understand Kanda being grateful, but I don't really get why he isn't still reminded of Alma.I'm sure he's still reminded of Alma even now, but I mean he even sees Alma in Johnny. :p His childhood & recent experiences with Alma surely affect his relationships with everyone in his life to some extent. ;)

With Allen though, there's certainly more in common. Their relationships developed in parallel. In the beginning, Alma always wanted to be Kanda's friend but wouldn't back down from a fight when Kanda rejected him. Allen was the same. Kanda and Alma fought until they suddenly just became friends. Kanda and Allen did too. Alma sacrificed himself to save Kanda before Kanda came back and ultimately "killed" him. Allen sacrificed himself (mainly to Alma's attacks) before Kanda tried to kill him. Neither friendship was static, and the one with Allen is still progressing. :)


Yeah. I can understand him returning once. But twice? It's like leaving the house to go on a vacation and returning because someone forgot a towel. I get the sense that it's as if Hoshino wanted to do something last minute.Indeed. I'm not very clear on it myself. Those were just my basic impressions. *shrugs*


Don't use "human nature" to justify jerkish behavior. It is your job and capricorn's job to convey your ideas with care.It is EVERYONE's job to do so, not just mine or capricorn's. I still don't see what's "jerkish" about saying someone's views were poorly supported. I think it would be really nice if we ALL took care before calling people names and accusing them of bullying or other actions of ill-intent. I don't see a need to take sides where no one is truly at fault. Things became really lopsided here and I was trying to balance them out. Please don't take my relatively detached observations (which I did take care to deliver, thank you) personally or construe some kind of ill-intent behind them just because I was trying to give you a different perspective from the one you already had. I wasn't being disrespectful and there's no need to feel spited as I'm not trying to spite you but get you to empathize with just one more person in the discussion.

At the very least, if you think someone might have said something offensive to you, please be sure s/he really meant it that way. Take their answer under consideration rather than just assuming the worst of them from the get-go and refusing to listen to anything else they say. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Just throwing out accusations and worse, assuming the absolute worst possible motives of someone, never helps a situation like this improve, either IRL or online.


Actually I was preemptively warning him not to do that, because I have encountered that a lot lately in the DGM section. It's very disappointing, because I used to frequent this section all the time. It used to be very friendly here. Now... not so much.Really? I've only been around 2.5 months but I've found just about everybody here really nice, either to chat or to debate with. This is the first time I've seen such a massive disagreement occur here. :(


Possibly. But you might be reading too much when not a lot of info was given.Maybe, but what I cited from 210 is true, and the rest of what I suggested isn't implausible. "Dark Allen" is a pretty shrewd guy. Why assume there was no way he could have hidden when there were clearly ways he could? I can certainly understand mild disappointment at not getting concrete info on how he did it though.


Possibly. I just get the feeling that something went missing between the Alma and Escape arcs to now. It came back in the 14th flashback, but still is largely missing. The fun is underplayed a lot, a servant of the drama. I feel like that undercuts strong drama.Matter of opinion I guess. I think we're getting mostly light moments like I mentioned in between action sequences (Apo/Kanda; Earl/Allen). But we even had a comedic action sequence with Apo/Jasdevi, and when Kanda destroyed that horde of akuma on the street, or before that when Kanda "made sure" the Crow that were after Johnny were taken care of. (Actually, almost all of Kanda and Johnny's journey to find Allen was comedy. They were an odd pair to see travelling together, in and of themselves, lol.) :D


Though I did like the Science Div devices comment. Callbacks are great.That made me smile. :)

Mango-chan
May 01, 2013, 09:25 PM
I 100% get the complaints on Allen and they're pretty valid, but my fujoshi tinted glasses and Stockholm syndrome for shounen hero badassery keeps me from joining the party. Sometimes I even have "why can't I quit you!" pouty fests about it. I can't bring myself to dislike Allen to my fullest potential so instead I focus on the positives and enjoy Allen for what he is.

Just thought it would be fun to toss in an update of my opinion in here to lighten up the mood.

riki
May 02, 2013, 06:11 AM
Please keep this on topic. Remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions and that you need to respect them. If you disagree with their opinions, please be respectful when you tell them why and don't attack them personally. Thank you! :)

CloudStrifeACC
May 02, 2013, 06:29 AM
I don't know what to say...I regret coming here. But I can't keep quite when this whole thing started couz of 'that' comment. Alright as for Capricorn, I've already forgot what he said so I don't hold any grudge against him. It's alright, it's just a manga, we don't have to be so serious. As for kannazuki, I can see what you mean ,and I do understand. (Although I still feel Capricorn was a bit harsh but as I said I'm not really kinda person to hold grudges over such trivial things.) By the way, Can I ask you more question about Allen in PM? You did clarify some things for me in your first post.:) And as for earthforge, I'm sorry you got involved in all this mess, for some reason it's a bit hostile atmosphere, I can see why a kind person like you would be upset. :^_^
And

Also to said girl you dont drop a series just because some guy rages at you. Its no excuse.
Hey! I never said I'm gonna drop couz of him! I just said I found more opinions because of him. I think you guys took it for sarcasm but I was 'really' thanking him.

And finally....

Its not a easy character to like in the long run if your looking for your simple knight in shining armor, or your Zero (code geass reference).
What in the world?! I don't know what you're thinking that I'm thinking but I'm not thinking what you're thinking!:gwah

ca12nag3
May 02, 2013, 07:29 AM
I don't know what to say...I regret coming here. But I can't keep quite when this whole thing started couz of 'that' comment. Alright as for Capricorn, I've already forgot what he said so I don't hold any grudge against him. It's alright, it's just a manga, we don't have to be so serious. As for kannazuki, I can see what you mean ,and I do understand. (Although I still feel Capricorn was a bit harsh but as I said I'm not really kinda person to hold grudges over such trivial things.) By the way, Can I ask you more question about Allen in PM? You did clarify some things for me in your first post.:) And as for earthforge, I'm sorry you got involved in all this mess, for some reason it's a bit hostile atmosphere, I can see why a kind person like you would be upset. :^_^
And

Hey! I never said I'm gonna drop couz of him! I just said I found more opinions because of him. I think you guys took it for sarcasm but I was 'really' thanking him.

And finally....

What in the world?! I don't know what you're thinking that I'm thinking but I'm not thinking what you're thinking!:gwah

Ah well i didnt write what i wrote to tell you off but you did say


I was only curious to find out others opinion before I dropped out which I have ,thanks to you.

In reference to Capricorn. So what part of his contribution added to it that you should drop the series? At least clarify unless you want to put a blame on him. Cause as far as i know Capricorn loves DGM. So does Earthforge and i do too. Be it for different reasons but non of us want to contribute to someone quitting on DGM. So either your being sarcastic or putting a form of blame on him.

As for the character i just gave 2 examples of a more single minded character. Both of which are not bad to like btw. There are many things about Zero that i like but he isnt that complex. I like Code Geass a lot and could explain easy why Allen and Zero are far different and have less in common, yet both have similarities. Its not that i think what you think but it would be easier for me to explain more about Allen Walker.

If you look at Allen Walker you need to have facts in line first before analyzing it. And then youll see hes really complex. I could give some examples :)

-Allen first met Mana as Red, he was rather different and less polite here then later on.
-Allen already had his innocence unknown how he got it. (said to be born with it? but later facts would speak against this or at least make this difficult since Red is not who Allen is)
-He was taken in by Cross Marian knowing who he had inside him and knew that Allen would be gone eventually, also here its unclear if he knew who Allen was prior to meeting Mana.
-Allen gave up his own life to take inside him the 14th-Nea. Btw the inner noah is a different aspect then the outer 1. As can be seen the memories and thus the power of the noah are not the same as the person who it awakens with, it kind of fuses onto them. reference would be Skin Boric. Thus even if he has Nea inside him, the power of the 14th noah belongs to Nea but its possible that Allen could use it without Nea (its a theory).
-Allen reverted his age to that of a kid, hes seen as at least a young adult when in flashback with Nea, who lays defeated.
-The akuma eye that Allen has, it is unclear what it is, he didnt have that at first and it could be a fragment of Mana (akuma form) But then who is the earl? And who was Mana?

All of this makes Allen a lot more complex. He loved his father to extreme extent and view the motto of Mana to keep on going as a life vow. I like this a lot about him and even tho he changed that has never changed. And will be the final part that defines him the most.

deleted
May 02, 2013, 05:05 PM
I do like Allen. I have a hard time seeing him as a 'flat' character as it has been stated in this forum. For me the question is what makes a character a flat character? So, in class I was thaught that a flat character is one about whom we have little knowledge, who is unimportant to the story and who does not develop much in the further course of the events. Conformity of these facts with Allen? Pretty low, if you ask me (apart from knowing little about the true Allen).

I can understand that some people might say that his development has come to a halt, which I admit is pretty much true but that is only because every direction and possibility Allen can take is unsteady and full of risks.
Allen is in a pinch and can't really go back nor forward. What happens from now on, will also determine how much he is further going to change or not. Saying that he has become a character with no depth is a harsh evaluation.

When I think about a flat character I sadly think about Naruto Uzumaki. Don't get me wrong, I used to like him a lot and adore him but eversince the fight with Nagato, eversince the prophecy and so on, eversince he reconciled with the Kyuubi, I felt like his character has been degradated to the happy-go-lucky everstrong fighter with one only (or some) pecial skill, who is a bragging loudmouth. Why I think that way? Because of the way he acts and talks big. He says he wants to stop the circle of hatred generated by Madara through fights. How does he do that? By fghting him. Du du dum...

But back to our topic: I don't think Allen is a flat character. He has a lot of depth and is trying to find his balance. He wants t throw away Mana's mask and that is hard after having used it as a shield for his unstable feelings for years! It is simply bad luck and timing that DGM has been on hold during an Arc where the protagonist has yet to show his true colors.

CloudStrifeACC
May 03, 2013, 06:04 AM
I was only curious to find out others opinion before I dropped out which I have ,thanks to you.
That came out the wrong way, my bad. :sweat What I actually meant was that I'm just gonna find out about others opinion and then drop out anyway. Meaning I was planning to drop out whether if anyone agrees or disagrees with me. Why? Because DGM Manga isn't 'the fun place I used to know' ,and it hurts even more when Katsura Hoshino keeps changing not only the future events but the past ones too. I mean who could have thought that Allen was playing a charade all along? Atleast I didn't, and it hurts to know that the character I so liked was only an illusion, not even a real thing.:( And again, I wasn't blaming Capricorn or being sarcastic, I was thanking him for showing a different opinion.

ca12nag3
May 03, 2013, 11:02 AM
That came out the wrong way, my bad. :sweat What I actually meant was that I'm just gonna find out about others opinion and then drop out anyway. Meaning I was planning to drop out whether if anyone agrees or disagrees with me. Why? Because DGM Manga isn't 'the fun place I used to know' ,and it hurts even more when Katsura Hoshino keeps changing not only the future events but the past ones too. I mean who could have thought that Allen was playing a charade all along? Atleast I didn't, and it hurts to know that the character I so liked was only an illusion, not even a real thing.:( And again, I wasn't blaming Capricorn or being sarcastic, I was thanking him for showing a different opinion.

Allen didnt charade though. He just doesnt remember his own past and this makes his current life a new one. Its really interesting to me to find out and see what he will do now.

CloudStrifeACC
May 04, 2013, 03:25 AM
Its really interesting to me to find out and see what he will do now.
Same here. It's kinda getting hard to judge his next step, no?

kannazuki
May 04, 2013, 01:12 PM
When I think about a flat character I sadly think about Naruto Uzumaki. Don't get me wrong, I used to like him a lot and adore him but eversince the fight with Nagato, eversince the prophecy and so on, eversince he reconciled with the Kyuubi, I felt like his character has been degradated to the happy-go-lucky everstrong fighter with one only (or some) pecial skill, who is a bragging loudmouth. Why I think that way? Because of the way he acts and talks big. He says he wants to stop the circle of hatred generated by Madara through fights. How does he do that? By fghting him. Du du dum...Hahaha... while he's nowhere near as complex as Allen imo, Naruto's still developed since Pain. If anyone wants to talk about it further, let me know and I'll join the appropriate thread or do PMs...


Same here. It's kinda getting hard to judge his next step, no?I'll also PM but I think he needs to clarify what happened in his past before he knows what to do about his future. :)

REN KOUEN
May 04, 2013, 03:50 PM
i love allen but yuu is my favorite and cross is second allen is a great character though

hopeandlight
May 06, 2013, 05:15 PM
I think thing is...no one knows who he really is
Sometimes I don't know what to think about Allen
Is he Red ?
Is he the Allen who was friends with the 14th?
Is he still wearing the mask of Mana?
We don't know he's full back story and we don't know how much influence apo had on the new Allen we know today
So the question is ...
If the Allen we know is a created personality, a second personality, is he fake?
Did we spend all that time loving a fake?
Does he deserve to exist at all?
We often say there can only be one (read gantz)
Who is Allen and are we to accept all of his different sides in a world that likes it black and white?

ca12nag3
May 07, 2013, 04:50 AM
I think thing is...no one knows who he really is
Sometimes I don't know what to think about Allen
Is he Red ?
Is he the Allen who was friends with the 14th?
Is he still wearing the mask of Mana?
We don't know he's full back story and we don't know how much influence apo had on the new Allen we know today
So the question is ...
If the Allen we know is a created personality, a second personality, is he fake?
Did we spend all that time loving a fake?
Does he deserve to exist at all?
We often say there can only be one (read gantz)
Who is Allen and are we to accept all of his different sides in a world that likes it black and white?

I think the real Allen scrap that. The Allen we should focus on is the one we are presented with from the beginning, he had amnesia, loss of memory and tries desperately to find out the truth about himself but also Mana. He does follow the credo of the family to keep on going and still questions if Mana was interested in him or just nea. But after all Allen is himself. He has to battle his own old identity now as well as Nea. We will see where it leads and ofc its confusing but thats also due to the slow releases.

kannazuki
May 08, 2013, 07:43 PM
I'm totally with ca12nag3 on this. Allen's past (which we don't really know much of anything about anyway, so I'm leaving Apo out for now although I also suspect he may have tampered with Allen's memories) may be a "lie" but HE, himself isn't, you know? He's not just a Mana clone, he's not just a brawler, he's not just a card shark, he's not just Red, he's not the guy Nea considered a friend (yet? lol), etc. Whatever truly happened in the past, he's still the person we knew at the start, with all these other sides to him, PLUS as he's realized his weaknesses, he's being growing and changing all along. I highly, highly doubt that once he gets his proper memories back he's suddenly going to "revert" and drop all the lessons and experience he's gained from possessing all of those aspects of who we know him to be.

Crown Clown
June 07, 2014, 03:49 AM
I really like Allen primarily because before what he portrayed as his 'character' at the start was rather empty. It wasn't very real(just my opinion). While I do love it sometimes when a character is acting cool sometimes you really start to love the character when he realizes what he or she really wants and feels compared to the start when you don't really know much about what he is fundamentally. (Crown Clown Arc)

If I were to put together everything I said I think I would probably say I prefer Allen now as compared to before because he's stronger now ( mentally ) compared to before. And how I not? Even now I feel that the only reason to sorta hate(well not hate per say exactly) regarding him would be why he isn't being even more true to himself (he's showing empathy to the 14th and judging him for what he has done instead of as a Noah/enemy, but what does he himself want to do about him? ).

I think as the series continues we will really get to see the results of his growth as a character when he finally decides what to do about the 14th. Right now he seems to be recognizing the significance of grey areas as he realizes that Noah are sometimes not as evil as they seem and the Order is not as innocent as it appears. That's all I can say right now about Allen though.

Iownamovingcastle
July 13, 2014, 11:48 PM
I am so confused about how I am supposed to feel about Allen. I love Allen as a character. I love that he was happy and perky even when the world was falling down around him (and even when it did feel like a mask sometimes) and that he sometimes made "stupid" decisions for the sake of others. I was sold the second he let Lala finish her song. I also like the character development he has shown. He is getting older, recognizing some things he didn't before...not to mention struggling with the Order and Nea awakening, of course.
However, the new chapters have left me a bit confused and bummed out to be honest. It feels like that Allen never existed or, if he did, he is going to be swallowed whole and we will be left with Mana/Allen or Nea/Allen and not just Allen who happens to be hosting a Noah. Not sure if that makes sense. Part of me knows/thinks that "Allen" will remain (the character we know), but it was a bad place for a hiatus at least to me. Obviously couldn't be helped, but still feeling a bit confused and sad about Allen right now. I know I am about 1-2 years late on this, but I actually just completed reading the last 10 chapters so I have a lot of thoughts!

kannazuki
July 15, 2014, 01:24 AM
It's kind of a big no-no to endear all (or at least the vast majority of) the fans to the hero and then suddenly pull the rug out from under us, along with all his development by completely changing his character. No matter what, whatever changes happen will always be reasonable additions/adjustments to who he already is, not sudden 180º turns.

While K was airing, there were people who thought that the MC's personality would be lost forever, but of course it wasn't as that would be a betrayal of the fans. I don't see DGM's case as being any different in that area, myself.

Iownamovingcastle
July 15, 2014, 04:31 PM
I think you are correct about your spoiler theory kannazuki. For some reason, the hiatus makes it feel very final though especially since it left off with Allen at arguably his lowest point. My theory is that all of this is building into a few shocking bombshells, of course, but also a triumphant "return" of Allen or at least him regaining control.

kannazuki
July 15, 2014, 10:07 PM
Thank you & fair enough. At the same time, as he's faced the Earl in that alleyway, Allen has been himself. Disoriented and full of self-doubt maybe, but still himself. :')