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igotthegoods
March 22, 2011, 10:32 PM
Team Chocolate Love vs. Team Ice, Ice Baby

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14420

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Love

Aikawa Love is a Visored and former Captain of the 7th Division. Love is a laid-back and easy-going man, usually reading Shōnen Jump or some of Lisa's erotic manga in his spare time, more often than not, spoiling a piece of the story by quoting lines and explaining what the character meant by it in a dramatic, tough-guy demeanor, almost as if he was an actor rehearsing movie lines.

Love's zanpakutō is named Tengumaru. His shikai transforms it into a large kanabō reminiscent of a black cactus, twice the size of Love. Tengumaru has the ability to project fire from its tip.
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Zommari

Zommari Rureaux, the Seventh (Septima) Espada and the self proclaimed “fastest espada,” moves so fast that he is able to make image clones of himself. His Resurrección, Brujería, gives him an odd appearance in which from the waste down he becomes pumpkin-shaped and develops several eyes all over this body. In this state, he is not only able to defend himself in a spherical ball but can also use Amor in which he can take control over something for each corresponding eye on his body. His deadly combination of speed and control makes him a tricky opponent to face.
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vs.



http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14421

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Hitsugaya

Hitsugaya Tōshirō, the captain of the 10th division, is a young prodigy whose talent and sense of responsibility compensates for his physical immaturity. Although he generally has a cool, collected demeanor, he can let his emotions get the better of him when it comes to his protecting those dearest to him like Hinamori Momo. As a Gotei 13 captain, he is proficient in various areas of shinigami combat. His zanpakutō, Hyōrinmaru, allows him to manipulate water in the form of ice to various effects, such as instanteously freezing objects, generating frozen dragons and dragon wings, creating ice clones, and manipulation of the weather.
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Rukia

Kuchiki Rukia is an unseated Shinigami in the 13th Division under Captain Ukitake Jūshirō. Rukia is the younger sister of Hisana Kuchiki and the adoptive sister of Byakuya Kuchiki, as well as a friend of Ichigo Kurosaki.

Rukia's zanpakutō, Sode no Shirayuki, is released with the command "dance." In its released state, the blade becomes completely white and a ribbon forms from the pommel, earning it the recognition as the most beautiful zanpakutō in Soul Society. Sode no Shirayuki utilizes ice and snow to attack.
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Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Takahashi
March 23, 2011, 12:01 AM
Team Chocolate Love

2 Captain level fighters, one with a hax ability.

Love is probably the strongest of the Vaizards, Tengumaru was rather impressive for a Shikai. Mask doesn't hurt either.

Zommari was also one of the most impressive Sealed Espada IMO. If necessary, Amor can make short work of a lot of people, the fact that his ability is unknown makes it dangerous, although he's practically immobile, but it's not like he doesn't have backup.

Hitsugaya and Rukia have nice complimentary powers, HH could be a game changer, but I think Chocolate Love can pull out a win.

ShootToKill
March 23, 2011, 12:11 AM
We already know Amor can "possess" Rukia, so if Zommari decides to release immediately it'll be Rukia and Love up against Hitsu with Zommari free to use Amor on his limbs. If Zommari decides not to release immediately he can just blitz Rukia and it'll be he and Love up against Hitsu. Love alone has the power and speed to overwhelm Hitsu imo, so unless Hitsu brings out his best techniques FAST I don't really see any hope for Ice Ice Baby.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 12:14 AM
Rukia's dead weight again. Another disadvantage of these teamup matches is that some hit the bloody jackpot by having two roughly captain levels to work with while others have dead weight in these sorts of things... >>

Honestly though for lulz I'll go with Ice Ice baby on the assumption Zommari Releases. I have heavy, heavy doubts Amor will work on his ice. Dude takes control yes, but severing and melting is all good and now all he's got control of is a slab of ice that does nothing, and Danku if nothing else shows that you can stick the thing on something that's technically see through. He'll have to literally go all out for this though, and take out one of them with HH really fast, preferably Zommari.

Technically he has the advantage on Love, in a Shikai vs. Shikai bout I'd give it to Love in a bloody second, but bankai vs. shikai even with mask and he's going to need some more firepower of a quicker variety. Dude can move the mallet fast sure, but it's not a huge issue defense wise and he's not remotely a speedster, and Hitsugaya knows when to run and block where required. I'd worry about that flaming hit thing, but luckily it's a basic smash and save the impact hitting the ground not a particularly huge deal, and I have little worries that tiny amount of fire along the thing will cause any serious melting.

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2011, 12:23 AM
Gonna go with "from Hueco Mundo with Love" here. Like I said before this can technically be a 3 on 1 since we already know Rukia can be entirely possessed. Not that it would need to be though, IMO Love is stronger than Toushirou. Tengumaru is easily large enough, powerful enough, and quick enough to deflect any ice attacks thrown at Love, and once Love puts his mask on Toushirou won't be escaping him.

Additionally, that flame attack hifuki no kozuchi seems like it would come in handy against an ice user.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 12:28 AM
Rukia fighting him, assuming she can still use her sword skills is a bloody advantage when alls said and done. Otherwise, controlled or not she's literally dead weight. Hitsugaya backhands VC levels away, a casual smack with the tail will ruin her.

Zommari releasing of course is best possible, as immobile pumpkin is easy hit with HH, meaning he'd likely get it off even with Love dead set on ruining his day. Course odds are heavily against him here, frankly I'm only giving the win to him partly because I'm really miffed at Ichigo going two tiers ahead of where he's supposed to have stopped if the voting were sane, and partly because the degree of struggle required to win would be bloody amazing to watch. It's going to be freaking rough.

Waking_Dreamer
March 23, 2011, 01:21 AM
Zommari releases so that he is able to showcase and present both Rukia and Hitsugaya his "love" with his Amor technique. Rukia gets tagged while Hitsugaya dodges or uses his Ice Wing to shield.

Hitsugaya is around as perceptive as Byakuya and easily senses/keeps track of his subbordinates in battle such as Matsumoto and Hinamori. He'll know something is up with Rukia.

While he hasnt shown six-rod-prison, his ice techs are just as good as that level of binding kido. In close quaters he'll just palm Rukia to KO, or an Ice Dragon which blitzes VC level fighters Kira will get Rukia out of his way.

Love hasnt shown to prefer long range figthing so he'll get close with a mask boost...he swings to crush Hitsgaya down to the ground - but in essence it will only be his ice clone.

Hitsugaya from above will now drop HH on Love and the slow-moving Release Zommari....! :eek:

:smile-big :cool:

Ice, Ice Baby

Tonix
March 23, 2011, 01:43 AM
Hitsugaya is around as perceptive as Byakuya and easily senses/keeps track of his subbordinates in battle such as Matsumoto and Hinamori. He'll know something is up with Rukia.


Either you are trolling, or you simply have the most finely crafted pair of fanboy goggles ever created. You seem to have completely misunderstood the end of Hitsugaya's fight with Gin if you think that he keeps good track of his allies (especially Momo and Rangiku lololol) in battle.

Chocolate Love takes this, they have 2 captain class members, and a cooler name, captain fanbase would have a hard time against either member of the chocotastic duo, he won't last long against both of them.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 01:53 AM
Actually Love he takes Rather easily all in all. Nothing he has in shikai is particularly spectacular that is likely to hit, provided he's not limited to shikai, in which case Love stomps. Zomari is rough without knowledge (Though somehow they're able to sense danger prior to him firing it, lord knows how), but he's also boned against HH due to no mobility in released form. It's together that they easily have the chance to beat him.

Jorge D. Dragon
March 23, 2011, 01:54 AM
It's Chocolate Love win.:)
I think it's rather obvious. Rukia is a dead weight. And Hitsu is rather slow to counter Zomari's Sonido or even Love's speed with Mask on. So anyway this match goes to Chocolate Love.

Waking_Dreamer
March 23, 2011, 02:07 AM
Either you are trolling, or you simply have the most finely crafted pair of fanboy goggles ever created. You seem to have completely misunderstood the end of Hitsugaya's fight with Gin if you think that he keeps good track of his allies (especially Momo and Rangiku lololol) in battle.

How so?

He can keep track of the conditon of his subordinates. He kept in the back of his mind Hinamori's presence when she entered the FKT battlefield and Matsumotos mindset as she would be fighting near Gins presence.

Yeah he kind of loses it when someone trolls Hinamori, but Aizen and Gin aint here are they?

Not to mention he has had 3 more battles since SS-Gin-skirmish. By the end of FKT, I doubt hes as green as SS.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 04:51 AM
Come on, this is another clear win for Chocolate Love.
Rukia goes down in one shot by any of them two. Then they gang up on poor Hitsu. Love goes in CQC, and Zomari if need be takes control of his say, leg, immobilise him and Tengumaru does the rest. Not that he would need to aid Love, he is stronger, more experienced, more of a tank and maskier(LOL) than Hitsu. Hitsu in bankai and shikai is all about range fighting, and I do not see Love or Zomari just standing there waiting for snowflakes of death.:-D
Hitsu fans, as a Byakuya fan, I'm telling you to stop comparing that kid to the Head of Kuchiki noble house. He has nothing on Byakuya's speed, intellect, resilence, or SKY versatillity. Nothing. B-)
Take care, guys.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 05:58 AM
I would argue that Love solos this, but what's the point? He has Zommari here as a partner and Rukia is dead weight!
Hitsu is strong, he is a genius, but taking on Love and Zommari is too much. They are just worse possible fighters for him. Hitsu's speed is nowhere near Zommari's and his ice (both in Shikai and Bankai) stands no chance in hell against Tengomaru (Forget the mask boost).

kkck
March 23, 2011, 06:11 AM
Love and zomari easily IMO. Both of them are captain level while in turn the other team only has hitsugaya as a captain level fighter. IMO rukia would actually hamper hitsugaya therefore he would be far better of fighting alone against those two. Rukia is not strong enough to be an asset in any form other than as a cheerleader at best.

Hystzen
March 23, 2011, 08:23 AM
Love imo crushes Histu on his own.

His club would break hitsus wings quite easy..his ice long range i think will be batted away by his spinning club. even if hitsu does his ass pull "ice clone" that counter attack unless its HH will not hurt Love that much.. The dude took Starrks wolves like a boss and was ready to continue fighting.

Zommari easily beats rukia it up to him if attack histu from behind while histu is busy with love

good ol choc love wins

SaintSheik
March 23, 2011, 10:11 AM
Chocolate Love wins.

This time around, Rukia is virtually irrelevant. Hitsugaya wouldn't hold a candle against Love, and I want to say a pre released Zommari is the fastest combatant in the bunch.

I could see a fatal blow faster than either of his opponents could counter. Then again, Hitsugaya could keep up with a released Harribel but that's another story. Love and Zommari got my vote.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 11:23 AM
Loves hammer smashes through the ice... You do realize that thing was physically blocked with a pair of guns right? Granted I hold Starrk as ungodly, but not in regards to physical strength (There Koma reigns) and giant ice wings hold a hell of a lot more defensive umph than guns by sheer virtue of guns having a horrid grip for that sort of thing. >>

I do hold he wrecks Hitsugaya's shikai with it, but Bankai is an entirely different story. Granted the flaming hit apparently had a crapton more force behind it, but obvious hit is obvious and the flame is rather small all in all.

ShootToKill
March 23, 2011, 11:41 AM
Shawlong had no problem smashing through the ice wings when Hitsu was at 20%, and I don't think it would be a stretch to say masked Love is at least 5x stronger than Shawlong.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 11:50 AM
He didn't smash, he cut. The dude was called 'The Scissors' I think the distinction there is clear. Particularly when he's slicing through entire sections of the wings. >>

Blunt force wise the wings have a hell of a lot more umph to them, as blunt force in Bleach is crap in that it never works nor does jack. Luppi tried to smash and didn't even dent the thing, needing an all around spreed, something Love can't do mind, to even get chunks of it to fall off, and it STILL held enough that it didn't actually touch him. Thing tanked both Harribel's blunt force energy assaults too, and I say blunt force because dude took a direct hit to the torso with one of those and wasn't even nicked.

Granted he's definitely getting knocked aside, but saying they would break through the wings to do any significant damage, with blunt force no less is bonkers. >>

Well, save the massive force of that one named assualt in which the mallets on fire anyway. I'd rate that a bit higher if there were a tad more fire though as again, blunt force in Bleach means jack.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 02:10 PM
I'd rate that a bit higher if there were a tad more fire though as again, blunt force in Bleach means jack.

Lol whut?! where did you get that from?

Random101
March 23, 2011, 02:29 PM
Yoruichi, only one without a blade, has to virtually supercharge herself with a highly volatile and dangerous state to even begin to be able to do damage without hurting herself as much as her opponent, Starrk himself took a direct hit with that same hammer with little more than an 'ow' and outright blocked it when he wasn't feeling down on himself, Komamura outright tossed a dude and he barely felt it, Kenpachi took a bloody punch from Yammi's release when entirely unprepared and got up like nothing, the list goes on.

Blunt force in Bleach is worth jack compared to bladed strikes, particularly for opponents of roughly an equal level in power, give or take. Partly because the damage is not visible and hardly registers half the time, and partly because, lets face it, it's pretty much never done much in the way of good for those who rely on it.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 02:43 PM
Blunt force in Bleach is worth jack compared to bladed strikes, particularly for opponents of roughly an equal level in power, give or take. Partly because the damage is not visible and hardly registers half the time, and partly because, lets face it, it's pretty much never done much in the way of good for those who rely on it.

Do remind me what happened to Barragan's Fraccion that fought Omaeda :amuse

Random101
March 23, 2011, 02:47 PM
Do remind me what happened to Barragan's Fraccion that fought Omaeda :amuse
What you mean the one who got up after a direct hit to the face and nearly killed him? Or bit about him getting a direct projectile captain to the face. In case you forgot:


Blunt force in Bleach is worth jack compared to bladed strikes, particularly for opponents of roughly an equal level in power, give or take.
As we've established, even a half dead full power captain >>>>> fraccion. And it still wouldn't change that straight up cutting the dude would have been easier. >>

I reiterate, blunt force is worth jack. Particularly of more serious examples I listed.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 03:01 PM
Just because shinigami arent carrying clubs instead of katanas, does not mean blunt force is useless. Who has a blunt zan, let me think... Omaeda, Renji's HZ, Love and Koma's bankai is more of a blunt force though KTM uses a sword, because of its size. I'm not sure about hand to hand, is that filed under blunt damage or not?:-|
Omaeda is crap, I'd give you that, but judging based on his performance would be like judging slashing damage based on Hanataro's performance.
Renji's bankai looks cool, and does pretty well blunt damage wise.
Love has enormous power in his club, see the damage he caused to his surroundings in his fight with Stark. He didnt smash Stark, though, because of the wolves.
Koma crushes his enemies in one hit, grawrr!:D Jokes aside, his samurai does great as a damage dealer.
The point with blunt vs slashing is in different application. Most enemies in Bleach are human sized, not Yami or Poww sized. Versus human sized targets in CQC you are better off with a katana for its maneuverability and its multiple attack options vs unarmored opponents, that are the most common in bleach. Vs someone Yammi sized it is better to have a more powerfull weapon that has greater attack surface like Tengumaru, for you cannot really stab through him, or bifurcate him, and even though a big ass club is slow, so is your giant target. Imagine Love hitting Yami on the head, devastating!:)
Just as in real life, if your opponent were to wear heavy plate armour, your katana aint really good against him. But a battle hammer, even though it will not cut him will brake his bones like nothing, or at least stun him. The huge swords used in Spain and across Europe were meant to compensate the lacking blunt force of the smaller blades vs heavy armor popular at that time.:)
Now, in Bleach almost everybody has a katana as their sealed zan, and it seems everyone is dressed in light clothes, which downplays the usage of blunt weapons. It is not given much screen time due to that, and that most of us like blades better (including me), but sometimes it appears and does not disappoint. Save for Omaeda, of course.:D

Lunatic Scream
March 23, 2011, 03:07 PM
What you mean the one who got up after a direct hit to the face and nearly killed him? Or bit about him getting a direct projectile captain to the face. In case you forgot:


As we've established, even a half dead full power captain >>>>> fraccion. And it still wouldn't change that straight up cutting the dude would have been easier. >>

I reiterate, blunt force is worth jack. Particularly of more serious examples I listed.

That's probably why Chad is so worthless. (Kidding) (Okay, not really)

This one is interesting. Love and Zommari have the advantage straight out, just because Love is quite the fighter, Zommari's ability is haxtothemax, and Rukia is the "baby" part of Ice, Ice, Baby.

I don't see Rukia doing much. Keep in mind that when Zommari DID take control of her, she was flat out unconcious, so I wouldn't say the fight starts with her simply getting controlled, especially if her and Hitsu are playing defensively (getting offed by his sonido is far more likely).

Hitsu would have to turn this into a 1v1 fairly quickly by taking out Zommari... and Zommari trying to take control of Hitsugaya's bankai is a rather difficult task, IMO. Anyways, the only way I see Hitsu winning is to use that clone effectively and to turn this into a 1v1. I do think Bankai Hitsu is stronger than Love's power in this tournament (though obviously not if he had bankai), so while he can win, it's a long shot.

Gonna have to go with Chocolate Love.

Buzz Killington
March 23, 2011, 03:25 PM
To be honest I believe Team Chocolate Love can take this without Zommari having to release. Rukia would be horribly blitzed (http://www.mangareader.net/94-658-7/bleach/chapter-204.html) by Zommari

Hitsugaya would probably hold up fairly well against Love, that is until he releases himself and begins to swing around Tengumaru. Seeing as Hitsu isn't too great when it comes to being faced with heavy blunt damage (http://www.mangareader.net/94-686-10/bleach/chapter-232.html), and if his Ice covers Love's Zanpakuto he can just melt it (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-15/bleach/chapter-372.html), you have the White-Haired Captain being on his toes this entire time if not downright taken out of the fight.

With Zommari making short work of Rukia, his assistance would only speed things here

Team Choco-Love for the Win

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:33 PM
I'd be more adamant about that if said heavy blunt damage coming from Love could do more than one direction at a time. And more importantly if that blunt damage actually got all the way though. Granted though ultimately I support the two captain class vs. one idea, even if in a bout of insanity I'm supporting the other side. :P

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 04:36 PM
Team Chocolate Love should stomp.

No matter how you dig it, Hitsugaya in Bankai was implied to be the equal of these lovely Visored ladies (http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-14/bleach/chapter-375.html), all of whom fought released Harribel without being overwhelmed. Now, what rank were they again?

Lieutenant?

That's what I remember. What rank was Love before he was exiled?

Captain?

Yes. So is Love stronger than Hitsugaya without Bankai? Obviously. He's much stronger, and given his high Reiatsu content in being able to take Primera level ceros (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-1/bleach/chapter-372.html), given his ability to tag released Stark (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-8/bleach/chapter-372.html) when the latter was capable of casually blitzing Captain level opponents in base, and given his retardedly destructive attacks (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-15/bleach/chapter-372.html), Hitsugaya stands nearly no chance.

You might also want to consider that the difference between Zommari and Rukia is even greater than the difference between Love and Hitsugaya.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 04:38 PM
What you mean the one who got up after a direct hit to the face and nearly killed him? Or bit about him getting a direct projectile captain to the face. In case you forgot:


As we've established, even a half dead full power captain >>>>> fraccion. And it still wouldn't change that straight up cutting the dude would have been easier. >>

I reiterate, blunt force is worth jack. Particularly of more serious examples I listed.

Blunt force in Bleach is worth jack compared to bladed strikes, particularly for opponents of roughly an equal level in power, give or take. - These are your words. omaeda and that elephant dude were of roughly same level, so why you bring up "half dead" captains againts fraccion is beyond me :)

And I suggest you recheck your sources, Elephant guy was killed by Omaeda.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:40 PM
Uh, Hitsugaya in shikai and both those chicks going all out could not break though Harribel's defenses, while Bankai Hitsugaya kicked her ass. If anything those two going all out is roughly equivalent to a captain level shikai. That arguement's kinda dumb.

Similarly that tagging would be impressive... if it weren't OUTRIGHT STATED on the next page that Starrk's reactions dulled heavily in response to Barragon's death. >>


These are your words. omaeda and that elephant dude were of roughly same level, so why you bring up "half dead" captains againts fraccion is beyond me

And I suggest you recheck your sources, Elephant guy was killed by Omaeda.
Dude... Reread that fight. What the hell-Oh wait the anime changed it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but: http://www.mangareader.net/94-786-5/bleach/chapter-332.html

Soifon's crashing into him knocked him out. Not Omaeda. Omaeda's strike only pissed him off and nearly got him killed.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 04:42 PM
Uh, Hitsugaya in shikai and both those chicks going all out could not break though Harribel's defenses, while Bankai Hitsugaya kicked her ass. If anything those two going all out is roughly equivalent to a captain level shikai. That arguement's kinda dumb.

Similarly that tagging would be impressive... if it weren't OUTRIGHT STATED on the next page that Starrk's reactions dulled heavily in response to Barragon's death. >>

And yet you ignore the fact that Omaeda finished Elephant off with a smashing weapon yet again. :notrust

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:43 PM
No. He didn't. See Previous.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 04:44 PM
Uh, Hitsugaya in shikai and both those chicks going all out could not break though Harribel's defenses, while Bankai Hitsugaya kicked her ass. If anything those two going all out is roughly equivalent to a captain level shikai. That arguement's kinda dumb.

Similarly that tagging would be impressive... if it weren't OUTRIGHT STATED on the next page that Starrk's reactions dulled heavily in response to Barragon's death. >>


Dude... Reread that fight. What the hell-Oh wait the anime changed it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but: http://www.mangareader.net/94-786-5/bleach/chapter-332.html

Soifon's crashing into him knocked him out. Not Omaeda. Omaeda's strike only pissed him off and nearly got him killed.

uh lol :p sorry

Still, you really believe that he was killed simply because Soi crushed in him? I don't think sooo...
Plus, last time I checked, Hitsugaya did not have hierro.

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2011, 04:44 PM
Uh, Hitsugaya in shikai and both those chicks going all out could not break though Harribel's defenses, while Bankai Hitsugaya kicked her ass. If anything those two going all out is roughly equivalent to a captain level shikai. That arguement's kinda dumb.

Similarly that tagging would be impressive... if it weren't OUTRIGHT STATED on the next page that Starrk's reactions dulled heavily in response to Barragon's death. >>


Dude... Reread that fight. What the hell-Oh wait the anime changed it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but: http://www.mangareader.net/94-786-5/bleach/chapter-332.html

Soifon's crashing into him knocked him out. Not Omaeda. Omaeda's strike only pissed him off and nearly got him killed.

What's with you and calling everyone's arguments you don't agree with dumb?

Anyway another good example of blunt force doing impressive damage is Kaname's arm.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:47 PM
The one he got a nasty direct hit and only damaged one arm, which was shrugged off and kept fighting like nothing, ignoring HSR a few seconds later? Yeah... If that were a blade he'd be cut in half and dead, so again, worth jack in this series. Swords are where it's at in Bleach, if you don't have cutting power you have to work a hell of a lot harder. Well bar uber energy blasts or something, but at the end of the day Swords do the most damage in Bleach for some reason.

AlB
March 23, 2011, 04:48 PM
Anyway, why does it even come down to Blunt weapon vs Hitsugaya? Last time I checked it was Hollowfied Love and Zommari vs Hitsugaya and Rukia....
Hitsu has no Hierro which provides better defence against all types of attacks. If he doesn't get squashed by Love, his ice will. Add Zommari into equation and you get the picture.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:51 PM
Valid, but again resistence to Blunt force isn't only a heirro thing, that just negates you getting harmed as well (As several of the tanking blunt force like nothing feats are shinigami based), which is already negated thanks to the fact that Love's hitting you with a big weapon, not his fists.

And Hitsugaya is a goddamn tank who took a direct Hit to the Torso from Harribel and shrugged it off, and the wings are frankly even worse in terms of tanking damage to blunt force (Blades however seem to have a far easier time, another LOLBLEACH for the record). Granted I hold Love's swings as having more power than that, but add the wing defense to something that huge which wouldn't slip through as easy and getting the thing through, bar the uber impact hit of the named tech, just to hit him directly is going to be hard goings.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 04:52 PM
Team Chocolate Love should stomp.

No matter how you dig it, Hitsugaya in Bankai was implied to be the equal of these lovely Visored ladies (http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-14/bleach/chapter-375.html), all of whom fought released Harribel without being overwhelmed. Now, what rank were they again?

Lieutenant?

That's what I remember. What rank was Love before he was exiled?

Captain?

Yes. So is Love stronger than Hitsugaya without Bankai? Obviously. He's much stronger, and given his high Reiatsu content in being able to take Primera level ceros (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-1/bleach/chapter-372.html), given his ability to tag released Stark (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-8/bleach/chapter-372.html) when the latter was capable of casually blitzing Captain level opponents in base, and given his retardedly destructive attacks (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-15/bleach/chapter-372.html), Hitsugaya stands nearly no chance.

You might also want to consider that the difference between Zommari and Rukia is even greater than the difference between Love and Hitsugaya.

Guys seriously, read this.

There's no way Hitsugaya's on the same level as Love. And then you have Zommari vs Rukia.

How on Earth can team Hitsugaya even hope of winning???

Random101
March 23, 2011, 04:54 PM
Bankai Hitsugaya frankly Kicks Love's ass. With effort sure, ignoring HH, but that argument is dumb to say the least given the sheer number of factors you're neglecting. >>

I hold Love Kicking his bloody ass both reduced to shikai sure, but Bankai and Love's going to have major problems against the defense.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 05:56 PM
Bankai Hitsugaya frankly Kicks Love's ass. With effort sure, ignoring HH, but that argument is dumb to say the least given the sheer number of factors you're neglecting. >>

I hold Love Kicking his bloody ass both reduced to shikai sure, but Bankai and Love's going to have major problems against the defense.

What defense? Harribel could bypass his defense, and the weaker Visoreds, the ladies, had nearly the same amount of offensive/defensive power as her judging from their brief battle.

How do you suppose Love has trouble with Hitsugaya's defense? The argument you're using; Bankai vs Shikai, is only valid if both fighters are on the same level or near that, and it's clear in the disparity between their feats that they're not.

=/

Random101
March 23, 2011, 06:00 PM
Harribel bypassed it? I saw him taking direct hits from her and being fine, outright negating her cascada with prep even and tanking even named attacks. The vizard's keeping up with her? I saw all three of them going all out minus Hitsugaya's bankai and Harribel didn't even budge, whereas his bankai kicked her ass. I mean seriously dude, the feats aren't showing what you want them to. >>

As for bankai vs Shikai... one shikai has done no notable damage to anything other than collateral, and even a direct hit by someone with no notable defense shrugged it off like nothing. And now you're expecting me to say it bypasses someone with a very notable defense and a high tanking capacity... Yeah no. >>

I hold he's still knocked aside yes, but those hits aren't remotely going to be worth much.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 06:06 PM
Harribel bypassed it?

Yes. Repeatedly, and I do not mean where you have Hitsugaya dodging her, I mean that if he takes a freakin' hit from her he gets owned.

Cuts his clone in half (http://www.mangareader.net/94-809-17/bleach/chapter-355.html)

Overwhelms his attack and him (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-1/bleach/chapter-358.html)

Cero breaks apart his ice (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-15/bleach/chapter-358.html)

Need more feats or something? Unlike Harribel, Love's both stronger and has an elemental advantage.


The vizard's keeping up with her? I saw all three of them going all out minus Hitsugaya's bankai and Harribel didn't even budge, whereas his bankai kicked her ass. I mean seriously dude, the feats aren't showing what you want them to. >>

Dude (http://www.mangareader.net/94-17477-8/bleach/chapter-367.html)

Stop making up your own version of manga canon (http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-14/bleach/chapter-375.html)

Up until then Lisa was doing everything alone.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 06:13 PM
Cuts his clone in half
Clone tells us what exactly?


Overwhelms his attack and him
Blocked Directly (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-2/bleach/chapter-358.html). >>


Cero breaks apart his ice
Yay, cero condensed into a slash does what a slash does and cuts a bit off. Not blunt force. >>


Dude

Stop making up your own version of manga canon

Up until then Lisa was doing everything alone.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-16/bleach/chapter-375.html
Triple assualt,
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-19/bleach/chapter-375.html
Harribel isn't even budged. Instead she swatted all three away like flies. >>

Yeah dude, even not taking into account that she wasn't using her water attacks like at all, that she didn't melt Hitsugaya's shikai when that easily would have given her yet more water to use, whatever was eating her after being trapped in HH all that time, if anything, and the fact that she isn't even remotely pressed to the point of giving a worrying face, she's taking all that entirely too lightly for it to be even remotely equal. Argument doesn't fly in the slightest.

As for defenses... Thing held under a surprise thrust as well as a multi all round assualt by Luppi, broke apart on the second a bit yes but held, dude can casually run around when his body is literally shredded, and he took several direct hits from Harribel to no effect. Your arguments simply don't work.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 06:18 PM
Clone tells us what exactly?

That Harribel doesn't have trouble destroying Hitsugaya's ice? You're not trying to tell me the clone was weaker than Hitsugaya's regular ice, are you?


Blocked Directly (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-2/bleach/chapter-358.html). >>

Blocked unsuccessfully seeing as how he was unwilling to get back into the fight.


Yay, cero condensed into a slash does what a slash does and cuts a bit off. Not blunt force. >>

Strawman, never claimed blunt force.


http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-16/bleach/chapter-375.html
Triple assualt,
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-19/bleach/chapter-375.html
Harribel isn't even budged.

What is your point, that she wasn't budged? They managed to do as much to her as Hitsugaya was able to do to her. Also, what do you mean not "budged"? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-17477-8/bleach/chapter-367.html)


Yeah dude, even not taking into account that she wasn't using her water attacks like at all, that she didn't melt Hitsugaya's shikai when that easily would have given her yet more water to use, whatever was eating her after being trapped in HH all that time, if anything, and the fact that she isn't even remotely pressed to the point of giving a worrying face, she's taking all that entirely too lightly for it to be even remotely equal. [B]Argument doesn't fly in the slightest.

The bolded is correct, but applies only to your argument, because this isn't Harribel vs Love, this is Hitsugaya vs Love. Love's lieutenants were able to do more to Harribel before HH than Hitsugaya was, which shows how much stronger the Visored Captain should be than Hitsugaya.

So that post was one giant red herring that ended up helping my argument. Lol.


As for defenses... Thing held under a surprise thrust as well as a multi all round assualt by Luppi, broke apart on the second a bit yes but held, dude can casually run around when his body is literally shredded, and he took several direct hits from Harribel to no effect. Your arguments simply don't work.

Compensate for Love's drastically higher power than Harribel and then give him the elemental advantage. Then ban Hyoten Hokkaso and have Hitsugaya fight Harribel, and see how well he does, which will not be better than Love's LT's. Then add the actual Captain into the fight instead of Harribel, and you have what is called a rape.

It's not hard to understand that Love is Primera level and that Hitsugaya isn't even Tercera level =/

Random101
March 23, 2011, 06:31 PM
That Harribel doesn't have trouble destroying Hitsugaya's ice? You're not trying to tell me the clone was weaker than Hitsugaya's regular ice, are you?
Are you going to tell me the thin film of ice he sets up to distract an opponent with an image is supposed to have equal defensive power to the massive chunks that are directly related to his defense. I mean even IGNORING that it's once again a cut not blunt force that argument's stupid.


Blocked unsuccessfully seeing as how he was unwilling to get back into the fight.
Dude isn't hit that's a successful block. He doesn't want to get into CQC yes, but that's primarily because sword slashing wise her blade's nasty, she can still try to score a hit with Cascada rather easily, so that also doesn't fly. >>


Strawman, never claimed blunt force.
Blunt force is required here. In case you didn't see the above cutting damage is an entirely different thing in Bleach than hitting someone with a mallet. Ergo not a strawman, you're trying to lead the arguement away from the point. >>


What is your point, that she wasn't budged? They managed to do as much to her as Hitsugaya [barring HH] was able to do to her. Also, what do you mean not "budged"?
You're trying to argue Lisa held her off alone like it's an impressive feat. It's not, she just as easily held a direct strike from all three off at full strength bar Hitsugaya's bankai and wasn't moved. Ergo either she got a massive powerup, or wasn't taking it seriously.

Similarly yay, she reacts and properly backs off from a surprise strike aimed at her torso when she was focused on another opponent, irrelevant, she blocked all three of them there with ease without those shenanigans.


The bolded is correct, because this isn't Harribel vs Love, this is Hitsugaya vs Love. Love's lieutenants were able to do more to Harribel before HH than Hitsugaya was, which shows how much stronger the Captain should be than Hitsugaya.

So that post was one giant red herring that ended up helping my argument. Lol.
Incorrect, Hitsugaya got a hit in even without HH. A minor one yes, but he actually, you know, hit her. All three together couldn't touch her. Your argument, AGAIN doesn't fly. Even going by that logic, Hitsugaya's Bankai ability was more capable than all three working together at full power minus that facet. >>


Compensate for Love's drastically higher power than Harribel and then give him the elemental advantage. Then ban Hyoten Hokkaso and have Hitsugaya fight Harribel, and see how well he does, which will not be better than Love's LT's. Then add the actual Captain into the fight instead of Harribel, and you have what is called a rape.

It's not hard to understand that Love is Primera level and that Hitsugaya isn't even Tercera level =/
Oh lord so many things wrong with this...

Higher strength than Harribel firstly isn't clear. Cascada is far more massive than his basic swings to say the freaking least. I do hold his name attack as stronger, but that's one instance to say the least, he's got that bit good if he avoids it, the basic swings? They did jack all even with direct hits, and were blocked with a bloody pair of guns. >>

Fire has elemental advantage over ice... Uh what? Since freaking when? This isn't pokemon, we have no idea what the two do if they interact with each other in bleach, and the amount of fire Love calls isn't Yamamoto level to say the least. Hell all he does is set is weapon aflame, and I already said that attack would likely hurt a lot more due to the much more massive impact, though it loses a bit from obvious setup.

Love Primera level? Ignoring whatever his bankai is, which is void here, He got his bloody ass kicked while the dude was still barely trying even with Roses support, and the only time he ever did anything was when Starrk was outright stated to be preforming worse than his normal not trying levels. Try again.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 06:40 PM
Are you going to tell me the thin film of ice he sets up to distract an opponent with an image is supposed to have equal defensive power to the massive chunks that are directly related to his defense. I mean even IGNORING that it's once again a cut not blunt force that argument's stupid.

Yes, yes I am. They're the same ice, and they are made from the same Rei, so it's not up to me to prove that same ice made from same person is of similar strength; it's up to you to prove otherwise.


Dude isn't hit that's a successful block. He doesn't want to get into CQC yes, but that's primarily because sword slashing wise her blade's nasty, she can still try to score a hit with Cascada rather easily, so that also doesn't fly. >>

That's the point dude. I'm trying to tell you that when Halibel lands a successful hit on Hitsugaya he can't properly defend against it. Whether or not Halibel can score a reliable hit is irrelevant to his defense, so will you stop making red herring?


Blunt force is required here. In case you didn't see the above cutting damage is an entirely different thing in Bleach than hitting someone with a mallet. Ergo not a strawman, you're trying to lead the arguement away from the point. >>

Ergo a strawman because blunt force vs Cero has nothing to do with the situation at hand, and I didn't claim it did either. You told me Harribel couldn't bypass Toshiro's defense, I showed you pictures where his ice was overwhelmed by her. So stop posting irrelevant crap okay?

Might it also interest you to discover that the Visoreds can fire ceros as well?


You're trying to argue Lisa held her off alone like it's an impressive feat. It's not, she just as easily held a direct strike from all three off at full strength bar Hitsugaya's bankai and wasn't moved. Ergo either she got a massive powerup, or wasn't taking it seriously.

Neither of those statements can be proved so you are guilty of:

1) A false dichotomy (because there's a third option; Lisa is as strong as Toshiro)
2) Argument from ignorance (you just claimed either one as true without proof and backing it up requires evidence you don't have, therefore unless you concede you will be going the route of "prove it wrong")


Similarly yay, she reacts and properly backs off from a surprise strike aimed at her torso when she was focused on another opponent, irrelevant, she blocked all three of them there with ease without those shenanigans.

Yeah that's irrelevant? This has nothing to do with Harribel's defense.


Incorrect, Hitsugaya got a hit in even without HH. A minor one yes, but he actually, you know, hit her. All three together couldn't touch her. Your arguement, AGAIN doesn't fly. >>

Because you know, she couldn't touch them either and because, you know, Harribel was standing still in the face of HH, of course she'd get hit =/. Invalid comparison.


Higher strength than Harribel firstly isn't clear. Cascada is far more massive than his basic swings to say the freaking least. I do hold his name attack as stronger, but that's one instance to say the least, he's got that bit good if he avoids it, the basic swings? They did jack all even with direct hits, and were blocked with a bloody pair of guns. >>

This isn't freakin' Harribel vs Love, so stop posting irrelevant crap. It's getting on my nerves.

This is Love vs Hitsugaya, and unless you think Harribel can knock around the Espada two ranks above her he would beat her without even using his mask or any of his fancy Shikai moves.


Fire has elemental advantage over ice... Uh what? Since freaking when? This isn't pokemon, we have no idea what the two do if they interact with each other in bleach, and the amount of fire Love calls isn't Yamamoto level to say the least. Hell all he does is set is weapon aflame, and I already said that attack would likely hurt a lot more due to the much more massive impact, though it loses a bit from obvious setup.

Because fire. melts. ice.

Also, you might want to write down something; Fire Gavel's much more destructive than anything Harribel's pulled out. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-15/bleach/chapter-372.html)


Love Primera level? He got his bloody ass kicked while the dude was still barely trying even with Roses support, and the only time he ever did anything was when Starrk was outright stated to be preforming worse than his normal not trying levels. Try again.

You want to prove just how more badly Stark was performing in that fight? Because you do realize that Love was unmasked and didn't use any fire at all right? He missed one attack that Stark Sonido'd away from and then caught him again, almost overpowering him, AFTER HE GAINED HIS RESOLVE BACK. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-12/bleach/chapter-372.html)

Waking_Dreamer
March 23, 2011, 06:49 PM
That Harribel doesn't have trouble destroying Hitsugaya's ice? You're not trying to tell me the clone was weaker than Hitsugaya's regular ice, are you?

Why wouldnt it? Is Urahara's doll as stong as himself? Or Byakuya's cicada clone as durable as he is? Theyre distraction tech.

Besides icicle flock and generic ice slash it has the least volume of any of his ice tech, and its neither meant to defend or attack. Its just ment to die.

Its a distraction tech.


Blocked unsuccessfully seeing as how he was unwilling to get back into the fight.


:blink Okay idk what your talking about anymore.

Not A SINGLE drop out of all that cascada touched him.

He then initiated the next skirmish.


What is your point, that she wasn't budged? They managed to do as much to her as Hitsugaya [barring HH] was able to do to her. Also, what do you mean not "budged"?

Obviously that was a suprise attack. She backed off to see who she was dealing with.


Compensate for Love's drastically higher power than Harribel and then give him the elemental advantage. Then ban Hyoten Hokkaso and have Hitsugaya fight Harribel, and see how well he does, which will not be better than Love's LT's. Then add the actual Captain into the fight instead of Harribel, and you have what is called a rape.

I completely disagree.

Someone already made a good post about that so i'll just copy/paste:

"If Hitsugaya wasn't at least near Halibel's power level and skill level then no amount of water freezing would have been able to save him. If Rukia fought Halibel she would be fucked regardless of her ability to freeze water. It's not like Hitsugaya barely held Halibel off for a few moments until someone rushed over to bail him out. He fought on par with her for a good long time without taking any significant damage.

-She never demonstrated that she was faster than Hits, in fact she was on the receiving end of a few speed blitzes.

-She never demonstrated that her reiatsu was superior to his, because by Aizen rules, his ice would have simply been nullified if her reiatsu was vastly superior to his.

-She never demonstrated superior intelligence since she continued to shoot water at the reincarnation of an fucking ice god.

-The only thing she demonstrated was superior physical power and that was only at the very start when she rushed him."

Random101
March 23, 2011, 06:53 PM
Yes, yes I am. They're the same ice, and they are made from the same Rei, so it's not up to me to prove that same ice made from same person is of similar strength; it's up to you to prove otherwise.
Then that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Thickness ALONE disproves that stupidity.


That's the point dude. I'm trying to tell you that when Halibel lands a successful hit on Hitsugaya he can't properly defend against it. Whether or not Halibel can score a reliable hit is irrelevant to his defense, so will you stop making red herring?
Blade != Mallet. >>


Ergo a strawman because blunt force vs Cero has nothing to do with the situation at hand, and I didn't claim it did either. You told me Harribel couldn't bypass Toshiro's defense, I showed you pictures where his ice was overwhelmed by her. So stop posting irrelevant shit okay?

Might it also interest you to discover that the Visoreds can fire ceros as well?
I said he BLOCKED DIRECT HITS from Harribel. Inarguable, and THIS is the definition of a strawman right there. Reread the freaking argument. >>

Similarly she never bypassed regardless, because in case you missed it, she never landed a blow on the dude. She could mind if she used the right attack, but defense wise everything she hit him with he held. THAT was the initial point of contention.


Ergo a strawman because blunt force vs Cero has nothing to do with the situation at hand, and I didn't claim it did either. You told me Harribel couldn't bypass Toshiro's defense, I showed you pictures where his ice was overwhelmed by her. So stop posting irrelevant shit okay?

Might it also interest you to discover that the Visoreds can fire ceros as well?
Indeed it does have nothing to do with it. Then why are you bringing in Ceros that didn't hit him? That's irrelevant.

And so what if they can?


This isn't freakin' Harribel vs Love, so stop posting irrelevant shit. It's getting on my nerves.

This is Love vs Hitsugaya, and unless you think Harribel can knock around the Espada two ranks above her he would beat her without even using his mask or any of his fancy Shikai moves.
Then stop comparing the two. You said, RIGHT THERE, that Love has stronger hits. I denied that, bar his named tech. If you don't want pointless arguments, stop trying to lead it down pointless arguments. >>


Because fire. melts. ice.

Also, you might want to write down something; Fire Gavel's much more destructive than anything Harribel's pulled out.
This. Isn't. Pokemon.

Do you know what happens when you hit an ice block with a flaming weapon? A damn good chunk of the fire goes out, and you hardly dent the damn thing. Again. We know. JACK ALL. About what elements do to each other in bleach. Nor which is stronger. Nor which has more 'reiatsu' in it to be stronger.

And this isn't even taking into consideration that Hitsugaya freezes water. Whatever Ice he melts, Hitsugaya easily freezes again. And hell, by Pokemon rules that water puts out that fire. Oh Phooey. I mean good lord dude this isn't that hard. I could easily pull a number of reasons why the Ice would overpower it, feel lucky I'm calling it undefined here. Again, we don't know how elements work in Bleach to make that kinda call. >>

Also, because this also matters: Collateral damage means jack all in bleach. Sealed Hitsugaya blew up a room the size of a building by the sheer act of drawing his sword. "Durr, Hitsugayas Sealed sword strikes are stronger than Love's Mallet hits." Granted, I do Hold that to be potentially stronger than a Cascada, but notably Cascada hit nothing other than the ice shield, and that has a HELL of a lot more umph to it than simple buildings do. While I do personally agree with the point you're making here, note the logic behind it is ultimately flawed.


Neither of those statements can be proved so you are guilty of:

1) A false dichotomy (because there's a third option; Lisa is as strong as Toshiro)
2) Argument from ignorance (you just claimed either one as true without proof and backing it up requires evidence you don't have, therefore unless you concede you will be going the route of "prove it wrong")
So you're basically saying that Sealed Masked Lisa is equal in strength to Shikai Masked Lisa and Hiyori and Shikai Hitsugaya attacking all at once. Lovely. >>

Nice trying to pull the argument away from the point though when you couldn't answer there. >>


You want to prove just how more badly Stark was performing in that fight? Because you do realize that Love was unmasked and didn't use any fire at all right? He missed one attack that Stark Sonido'd away from and then caught him again, almost overpowering him, AFTER HE GAINED HIS RESOLVE BACK.
Badly enough that Love noticed it, and it still did jack all. You're not taking that into consideration, which is my point. And yay, he blocked a hit directly as opposed to shunpoing away, as he's proven entirely capable of considering he literally disappeared from his sight in the massive hit there, and he 'almost' overpowered someone who has no notable physical strength when he deliberately went in for a block. You're proving nothing here. Seriously. Particularly not what you stated before about him being 'primera level'. >>

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 07:12 PM
Random101, do you have a couple of nuts? Any will do, but wallnuts would be great. :)
Take a look at one and assume it is Hitsu's bankai wings enveloping him for protection, and that the core inside is his soft, tasty self. Got it? Good :)
Now take a knife and try to cut your nut open. Dont go by that line that divides the two halfs of its shell. How is it working out? Now take a hammer, a shoe, ash tray, something BLUNT, and assume it is Love's Tengumaru. Smash the nut open in one hit. Did it work? Sure it did. :)
Now imagine the nutshell made of ice, and your hammer/shoe/blunt object heated at about 1000 degrees Celsious. Would it be much easier to smash it now? Yes it would.
Conclusion: Love's BLUNT fiery force will break Hitsu's defence like a wallnut. B-)
Thank you for your patience, Random. I hope you realise now what Blunt fiery force does to ice shields.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 07:15 PM
While a valid comparison (Actually not really, there's a ton I could nitpick about it but at least you tried), in terms of Bleach it doesn't work. Let me put it this way, take Harribel's blade as the knife and a single one of Luppi's Tentacles as the Hammer. As you can see, the results are quite reversed in terms of canon. This is why I say Blunt force in Bleach means jack all. I'd throw in other compairsons, paritcularly Hierro and it's reaction to blades as opposed to high powered fists, or indeed how Starrk, Having Hierro is a nut himself yet the Hammer being Love's Mallet did jack but Shunsui's shikai being the knife freaking gutted him, but I think that served the point fine.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 07:35 PM
Hallibel breaking through the ice is just a testament of her strenght, dont you see it? You could also break the nut with a knife if you swing at full power at it. Please dont, it is rather dangerous, that is why we have hammers and such.:D
About Luppi not breaking it, are you really expecting anyone who comes along to easily destroys Hitsu's bankai? Not much of a defence he would have then, if a bloody tentacle monster could squish him like he was nothing? Plus vs Shalong he was at 20%, he one shoted him with Ruy senka when he went full power. Versus Luppi he was at full power from the start. Now, take a wild guess just how much stronger is Love then Luppi? 2,3,5 times? And he has FIRE to boost his attack.
No contest, Random, seriously. :)

Random101
March 23, 2011, 07:45 PM
The point of that was Blunt Force >>>>>> Cutting power in Bleach. I'm dead serious here, at comparable strength levels a sword is far better than something you have to keep whacking them with, which is why that point doesn't work at all.

Better comparison would be the Fraccion cutting through as opposed to Harribel then though admittedly 1/5 was involved, though frankly Starrk Captures the point entirely himself, facing direct hits from both sides of the fence.

Buzz Killington
March 23, 2011, 07:48 PM
I would say Thanks to Henry for such a nice comparison, but I didn't see any "No Homo" in there =/

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 07:49 PM
About Shunsui vs Stark and Love vs Stark, I suggest another experiment. Do you have an empty can of Coke with you? I want you to try to penetrate inside it with a say, baseball bat. Just one hole will do. How is your progress? Tough luck. :-( Now take that knife and try making a hole in it. Did it already! Cool!:-D
Blunt does this: BREAK, CRUSH,STUN.
Slash does this: CUT, STAB.
Hiero is more of a thick film around the Arrancar, like a can of coke, and they are the delicious, refreshing liquid inside. How hard is it to cut or pierce a can of Coke? Depends on the pressure (spirituall) from inside. Make sense? :) You are more likely to pierce a can with a spike, knife, sword. While striking it with a club will eventually open it, by BREAKING it open. Just like how Clubs break bones and give internal injuries like spleen rupture even if they dont cut one open, just bruise their flesh. Swords on the other hand, cut people open. :)

Random101
March 23, 2011, 07:56 PM
Uh, That doesn't work. You easily break a can with a bat, trying to cut it open is annoyingly tedious, and ultimately all you're doing is trying to bash through it anyway, just by focusing the point to a smaller area. And there's no distinction between breaking it open or cutting it open, all you want to do is damage it. For example, in the Nut case the hammer easily breaks the nut too, while the knife can easily get it out without doing that. Suffice to say these comparisons are falling through already. The distinctions just don't work.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 08:00 PM
Then that is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Thickness ALONE disproves that stupidity.

Yeah? Ad Hominem, lack of proof, argument from ignorance?

Concession accepted. Nice game bro.


Blade != Mallet. >>

Lol, concession accepted.


I said he BLOCKED DIRECT HITS from Harribel. Inarguable, and THIS is the definition of a strawman right there. Reread the freaking argument. >>

I said it DIDN'T MATTER. He was clearly overwhelmed in every single case. Unless I argue for Love breaking through and one-shotting Hitsugaya your comparison is a strawman because it is simply irrelevant to the case at hand; you're constructing an easier defeated version of my argument.

Stop this, you're essentially making shit up.


Similarly she never bypassed regardless, because in case you missed it, she never landed a blow on the dude. She could mind if she used the right attack, but defense wise everything she hit him with he held. THAT was the initial point of contention.

And that, I have to tell you again, is so damn irrelevant and Ad Nauseumed that it's not funny anymore. Why do I have to keep telling you that Harribel being unable to land hits on Hitsugaya is irrelevant? Stop.


Indeed it does have nothing to do with it. Then why are you bringing in Ceros that didn't hit him? That's irrelevant.

You mind telling me what hit him? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-29787-18/bleach/chapter-371.html)


And so what if they can?

Concession accepted.


Then stop comparing the two. You said, RIGHT THERE, that Love has stronger hits. I denied that, bar his named tech. If you don't want pointless arguments, stop trying to lead it down pointless arguments. >>

Yes, Love has stronger hits, because Harribel's hits aren't stronger than Lisa's, who is a Visored Lieutenant. Then you have Love freakin' coming in as a Captain and without his mask battering around the Primera Espada and overpowering him. Seriously dude?


Do you know what happens when you hit an ice block with a flaming weapon? A damn good chunk of the fire goes out, and you hardly dent the damn thing. Again. We know. JACK ALL. About what elements do to each other in bleach. Nor which is stronger. Nor which has more 'reiatsu' in it to be stronger.

Let me ask you. If someone can continuously produce fire, and someone can continuously produce ice, who would win?

Not getting into the fact that there's a good chance the ice would sublime, which would also invalidate your argument.


And this isn't even taking into consideration that Hitsugaya freezes water. Whatever Ice he melts, Hitsugaya easily freezes again. And hell, by Pokemon rules that water puts out that fire. Oh Phooey. I mean good lord dude this isn't that hard. I could easily pull a number of reasons why the Ice would overpower it, feel lucky I'm calling it undefined here. Again, we don't know how elements work in Bleach to make that kinda call. >>

And this is irrelevant because you clearly lack a clear working knowledge of physics to lecture me on the matter. Concession accepted.


Also, because this also matters: Collateral damage means jack all in bleach. Sealed Hitsugaya blew up a room the size of a building by the sheer act of drawing his sword. "Durr, Hitsugayas Sealed sword strikes are stronger than Love's Mallet hits." Granted, I do Hold that to be potentially stronger than a Cascada, but notably Cascada hit nothing other than the ice shield, and that has a HELL of a lot more umph to it than simple buildings do. While I do personally agree with the point you're making here, note the logic behind it is ultimately flawed.

Oh, and also, this is a huge red herring and dodging the point because Love's attack clearly produced far more power, which is energy/time, than any of Harribel's attacks displayed so far. Moreoever, without his mask Love is already easily capable of overpowering an Espada two ranks below Harribel, who can easily overpower Hitsugaya.

Love not overpowering Hitsugaya is ridiculous.


So you're basically saying that Sealed Masked Lisa is equal in strength to Shikai Masked Lisa and Hiyori and Shikai Hitsugaya attacking all at once. Lovely. >>

Nah, because there's clearly evidence showing Lisa taking Harribel alone. Why do you keep ignoring this?


Nice trying to pull the argument away from the point though when you couldn't answer there. >>


Nice job trying to create a false dichotomy. Concession accepted on the basis of invalidation logical fallacy.


Badly enough that Love noticed it, and it still did jack all. You're not taking that into consideration, which is my point. And yay, he blocked a hit directly as opposed to shunpoing away, as he's proven entirely capable of considering he literally disappeared from his sight in the massive hit there, and he 'almost' overpowered someone who has no notable physical strength when he deliberately went in for a block. You're proving nothing here. Seriously. Particularly not what you stated before about him being 'primera level'. >>

Irrelevant.

I hate to say it again because your long-winded walls of text speak for themselves, but your argument is invalid.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 08:10 PM
Come on Random, use some imagination. Does a can have a head you want to cut of like the Espada have... :-|
If the material of the can is hard enough, and the pressure inside it high, you cant be serious about bashing it being a better way to open it then piercing it with a sword. Think football, if it is easier for you? Better? Actually, a ball is a much better example, since Hierro is flexible unlike ice wings/nutshell. Any clearer, mate? It is rather simple, if something is hard like ice, plastic, glass, you use hammer. If elastic like an Espada, balls, sword works better for piercing it. You can still make open wounds with a club, how you ask? By hitting the ball with enough force while it is on solid ground, not in air. Are we cool now? :)

Random101
March 23, 2011, 08:11 PM
Yeah? Ad Hominem, lack of proof, argument from ignorance?

Concession accepted. Nice game bro.
It's called thickness. Arguing a thin film of ice is supposed to have the same defensive properties as a massive block meant for defending is stupid. Take it if you will, I wash my hands of an argument that dumb.


I said it DIDN'T MATTER. He was clearly overwhelmed in every single case. Unless I argue for Love breaking through and one-shotting Hitsugaya your comparison is a strawman because it is simply irrelevant to the case at hand; you're constructing an easier defeated version of my argument.

Stop this, you're essentially making shit up.
Cascada, blocked, Energy Sword Thrust thing, blocked, Energy sword thing tanked, Luppi's thing, blocked. Everything else, missed. Do I need to go on? He was never overwhelmed in anything that hit. Again, your argument doesn't fly.


And that, I have to tell you again, is so damn irrelevant and Ad Nauseumed that it's not funny anymore. Why do I have to keep telling you that Harribel being unable to land hits on Hitsugaya is irrelevant? Stop.
Your point is that he was overwhelmed.

WHERE?!

There was not a single point in which she landed an attack that did virtually anything to him that he didn't block, tank, or outright avoid. Without that your entire point with that line of discussion is invalid. This isn't that hard.


Yes, Love has stronger hits, because Harribel's hits aren't stronger than Lisa's, who is a Visored Lieutenant. Then you have Love freakin' coming in as a Captain and without his mask battering around the Primera Espada and overpowering him. Seriously dude?
So Harribel's hits aren't stronger than Lisa's, when a combined assault by LISA HIYORI AND HITSUGAYA at full strength, bar his bankai, was swatted away like nothing. Again, your points are invalid.


Let me ask you. If someone can continuously produce fire, and someone can continuously produce ice, who would win?

Not getting into the fact that there's a good chance the ice would sublime, which would also invalidate your argument.
No way to know, it depends on in Unverse logic. You're using pokemon. I point you to Naruto, where Haku's Ice techs completely Nulled Sasuke's fire techs. It depends on the verse, and anyone can virtually make it what they want, screw science. I again point to Naruto, where EARTH is somehow beaten by goddamn LIGHTNING.

Let me tell you this though. Love sets his weapon aflame, he doesn't produce constant fire. Hitsugaya however pretty much does with ice. Again, point invalid.

Particularly since Sublimation turns it into a gas. Hitsugaya controls that. All the water in the atmosphere remember, so doubly invalid. >>


Nah, because there's clearly evidence showing Lisa taking Harribel alone. Why do you keep ignoring this?
Because there's a clear cut scene in which all of them powered up could not push her back. At all. Why are you ignoring that. >>


And this is irrelevant because you clearly lack a clear working knowledge of physics to lecture me on the matter. Concession accepted.
Oh wow. I didn't realize you were that dead set into pokemon logic. Good lord you have it bad. >>


I hate to say it again because your long-winded walls of text speak for themselves, but your argument is invalid.
Nice job summing up your arguments. >>

Edit:


Come on Random, use some imagination. Does a can have a head you want to cut of like the Espada have... :-|
If the material of the can is hard enough, and the pressure inside it high, you cant be serious about bashing it being a better way to open it then piercing it with a sword. Think football, if it is easier for you? Better? Actually, a ball is a much better example, since Hierro is flexible unlike ice wings/nutshell. Any clearer, mate? It is rather simple, if something is hard like ice, plastic, glass, you use hammer. If elastic like an Espada, balls, sword works better for piercing it. You can still make open wounds with a club, how you ask? By hitting the ball with enough force while it is on solid ground, not in air. Are we cool now?
Dude, again, invalid. You're dead set on finding an equivalent argument here using some real world logic, not taking into account there are LOTS of ways for it to work. Firstly Hierro doesn't work on Spiritual pressure logic, Nnoitra has the best Hierro and the Espada are ranked based on spiritual pressure. Meaning Hierro is basically like armor. You know what works REALLY great on armor? Blunt weapons, you could literally ruin a dude's day with well placed hits from those. Bashing him real good leaves all kinds of nasty internal (in terms of the armor mind) effects that usually something like a sword can't replicate without the hard work of cutting through something of an equal level (or going for the joints and weak points but we're ignoring that), particularly if you get the head area.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 08:24 PM
Random, the wallnut is a metaphore for what? Tell me? Hitsu in bankai. And I doubt Love cares if he breaks his wings and injures him in the process, he aint going to take him to a beauty show after he kills him. Lol :)
To do what you imply with a nut in real life, you need one hell of knife, patience, and skill not to cut yourself. I once have. Nasty :(
take care.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 08:27 PM
Uh, a knife that can cut through a can is one that can cut through a nut rather easily. Again these points while logical don't ultimately work as metaphors without taking WAY more assumptions than advisable.

For example, you don't care about the state of the Nut Hitsugaya. Valid. You also don't care about the state of the Can, in this case Starrk. In fact in both cases you do the maximum amount of damage faster and with less fiddling using only blunt force than the blade would easily be able to do. So the best weapon in both cases would be that, because that's the easiest tool for the job, ie: Breaking through it as quickly as possible.

Ultimately though, in terms of comparison, that's not remotely how it translates into Bleach. In both cases it's actually the blade that's far easier to get through, blunt force is outright blocked or ignored all the time.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 08:45 PM
It is a Coke can! I said it, man. Read carefully. What knife can go through a soda can that has walls of aluminium 0.2mm thick? Any knife. A nut shell? A much more durable one. I tried it, I cut myself for the knife I used bent. Read what I write man. :)
And there is no way in hell a sword breaks Ice barriers easier than a Club. I'm done explaining it to you. Reread, think about what I said, you will see it makes sense. Find examples in common life. See how blunt and slash fair to a ball, then to a nut, or anything that is sound shaped and firm like Hitsu's bankai. Ask someone in your vicinity about their opinion. :)
You will see I'm right. Hopefully

Random101
March 23, 2011, 08:50 PM
Uh I read what you said. I don't agree plain and simple, they don't fundamentally make sense, and that .02 aluminum can is a lot harder to cut than you think to any degree of ease, and it's fundamentally far simply to just smash the thing open. What you're ultimately forgetting is that this is Bleach, swords are king here.

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 08:51 PM
I must in to bed, Random. Its 2:50 where I am. :) Sorry and we'll talk tomorow. Take care, man, and please do some thinking about what I said. Cheers! :)

ShootToKill
March 23, 2011, 08:54 PM
I still feel Starrk and Hitsu are not comparable in resistance to blunt attacks. Hitsu doesn't strike me as especially resilient at all, whereas Starrk, while not being the toughest espada, still had Hierro.

And yes, I think we must dispense with most notions of physics / conventional logic when discussing Bleach - we only use Bleach logic here :D

Henry J. Gloval
March 23, 2011, 08:59 PM
Not if you stab the can with a knife. Plus I have you a better example than a can. BALLS. They are elastic, have air pressure inside and their "shell" is elastic like hiero is. There.:)
I know swords rule in bleach, and iirc the Head of the Kuchiki noble house never used maces or clubs and he rocks. I love swords better, but one thing is to love them and another is to defy common sense.
Off to bed. See you, mate. :)

Random101
March 23, 2011, 09:01 PM
Hitsugaya I hold as one of the big three in terms of Tanks, bar Yamamoto even without the wings. No one else in the series literally shrugged off being bloody shredded and kept going in the middle of a fight virtually unfazed, save obviously Kenpachi and Komamura to varying degrees. Even in terms of slash damage, the dude could take some serious blows.

Augmented with the wings a crap ton of damage is easily negated already. Granted, this doesn't stop knock back, but getting rammed into buildings hardly does much. Dude's going to get thrown around no question, but so long as he doesn't take the named attack, it's not doing much. Dude has two degrees of very good defense buffering him, so blunt force is going to have to work insanely hard for it to be able to do a hell of a lot with just one strike. Which is pretty much Koma's bankai, Yoruichi's Shunko, or Yama's pimphand.

I'd say Yammi... but Yah, Kenpachi shrugged that off like nothing... so no go there.

Edit:

but one thing is to love them and another is to defy common sense.
First off you're banking on these comparison's being valid. Which isn't exactly the case to say the least, you're just attributing similar things to eachother and trying to rationalize the comparisons when there are a LOT of other far more valid ways to go. Similarly this is Bleach, common sense is already out the window. I point you to Soifon's nuke having enough shockwave force to tear a human body through a steel cloth and cause an impact crater upon hitting a building and not dent the windows, countless power inconsistencies in the HM arc alone, all of Aizen's countless BS for fourty chapters, numerous wound continuity errors, and many many more. >>

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 09:04 PM
It's called thickness. Arguing a thin film of ice is supposed to have the same defensive properties as a massive block meant for defending is stupid. Take it if you will, I wash my hands of an argument that dumb.


No, it's called Ad hominem (you insulted my intelligence)
Lack of proof (self Explanatory)
Argument from ignorance (ties into lack of proof and eventual validation base on "prove me wrong")

In other words, prove that Hitsugaya's ice clone was weaker than his regular ice or concede. It's really so simple.


Cascada, blocked, Energy Sword Thrust thing, blocked, Energy sword thing tanked, Luppi's thing, blocked. Everything else, missed. Do I need to go on? He was never overwhelmed in anything that hit. Again, your argument doesn't fly.

Factually incorrect (http://www.mangareader.net/94-686-10/bleach/chapter-232.html)

Missing is. so. damn. irrelevant.

Dude, stop this. You're just making shit up now. Missing has nothing to do with it, Hitsugaya's ice blocking anything worth mentioning is a joke, stop with the madness man.

Let me give you a very simple comparison to figure out. Harribel's cero completely shattered Hitsugaya's ice (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-16/bleach/chapter-358.html). Stark's ceros are stronger, and Tengumaru from unmasked Love is stronger than Stark's cero.

Now, how the hell does Love fail to hurt Hitsugaya? That's the main issue.


Your point is that he was overwhelmed.

Yup


WHERE?!

There was not a single point in which she landed an attack that did virtually anything to him that he didn't block, tank, or outright avoid. Without that your entire point with that line of discussion is invalid. This isn't that hard.




Cuts his clone in half (http://www.mangareader.net/94-809-17/bleach/chapter-355.html)

Overwhelms his attack and him (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-1/bleach/chapter-358.html)

Cero breaks apart his ice (http://www.mangareader.net/94-812-15/bleach/chapter-358.html)


Look dude, she overwhelms him several times in a row. Can you seriously stop with the Ad Nauseum? It's getting tedious repeating my arguments.


So Harribel's hits aren't stronger than Lisa's, when a combined assault by LISA HIYORI AND HITSUGAYA at full strength, bar his bankai, was swatted away like nothing. Again, your points are invalid.

Um, no, your imagination disallows you to picture the one solution to that, being that Harribel's defense is better than her offense.

Stop coming up with retardedly alternate explanations of manga canon that you feel you need to come up with in order to appear erudite. It just fails horribly because you're trying to inject your personal theories into the debate.


No way to know, it depends on in Unverse logic. You're using pokemon. I point you to Naruto, where Haku's Ice techs completely Nulled Sasuke's fire techs. It depends on the verse, and anyone can virtually make it what they want, screw science. I again point to Naruto, where EARTH is somehow beaten by goddamn LIGHTNING.

No, I'm not. And Naruto and Pokemon are irrelevant. YOU brought them up, YOU show how it's relevant, or else YOU can concede.


Let me tell you this though. Love sets his weapon aflame, he doesn't produce constant fire. Hitsugaya however pretty much does with ice. Again, point invalid.

Let me tell you this: Irrelevant

"Argument" invalid.


Particularly since Sublimation turns it into a gas. Hitsugaya controls that. All the water in the atmosphere remember, so doubly invalid. >>

Yes, and Tengumaru and fire will clearly have a problem getting past minute amounts of water and water vapor because Hitsugaya controls it. Lol, can you honestly not find a better argument than my first sarcastic sentence?


Because there's a clear cut scene in which all of them powered up could not push her back. At all. Why are you ignoring that. >>

Why would they need to push her back? What purpose would it serve? Why is it necessary?

Most importantly of all, what would pushing her back signify when she was attacked from all sides at once?


Oh wow. I didn't realize you were that dead set into pokemon logic. Good lord you have it bad. >>

Nice job at dodging the point. Like I said, concession accepted.


Dude, again, invalid. You're dead set on finding an equivalent argument here using some real world logic, not taking into account there are LOTS of ways for it to work. Firstly Hierro doesn't work on Spiritual pressure logic, Nnoitra has the best Hierro and the Espada are ranked based on spiritual pressure. Meaning Hierro is basically like armor. You know what works REALLY great on armor? Blunt weapons, you could literally ruin a dude's day with well placed hits from those. Bashing him real good leaves all kinds of nasty internal (in terms of the armor mind) effects that usually something like a sword can't replicate without the hard work of cutting through something of an equal level (or going for the joints and weak points but we're ignoring that), particularly if you get the head area.[

Yeah and that's like completely irrelevant because

1) Tengumaru has a full set of spikes on it (http://www.mangareader.net/94-31119-7/bleach/chapter-372.html)
2) They're still not immune from internal damage
3) Hitsugaya doesn't have Hierro

In other words concession accepted

ShootToKill
March 23, 2011, 09:10 PM
I don't recall Hitsu taking too much damage tbh... Vs Gin = none, Vs Shawlong, Shawlong attacked his ice, not him, Vs Luppi, he got taken down by his tentacles pretty easily, although admittedly was intentionally laying low so he could power up his Bankai... I don't recall the details of Hallibel but I don't remember her doing too much to her either... got 1-shotted by Aizen. I'm sure you probably have some examples I've overlooked or you wouldn't have made your statement, but I don't recall any major tanking feats of his.

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2011, 09:21 PM
Also, I don't know why the mask is seen as such a non-factor, given that we've seen it give Ichigo a bigger boost in power than he damn bankai does. It improves ALL stats. With the speed and power Love gains (not that he's lacking power to begin with mind you) he could easily shunpo/sonido in front of Toushirou, and quickly smack him multiple times with Tengumaru before he even realized what hit him.

A proper captain with hollow powers (i.e. not Ichigo) is naturally going to be better than a pure shinigami of the same rank.

CeroOskuraz
March 23, 2011, 09:27 PM
Not to mention that the Visoreds have had a full century of training. Even Lisa remarks to Shunsui to watch "how much stronger I've gotten"

Random101
March 23, 2011, 09:35 PM
In other words, prove that Hitsugaya's ice clone was weaker than his regular ice or concede. It's really so simple.
Because it's thicker for one thing. Because one is used for an entirely different purpose than defense, because frankly her slash did no damage to the thing at all in the first place, as the bloody thing wasn't even cut at all. COUNTLESS things that don't take half a second to think of if you even thought about it for a moment. I mean SERIOUSLY.


Factually incorrect
Factually correct: http://www.mangareader.net/94-686-10/bleach/chapter-232.html

Look closer following panels, the wings are completely intact, chunks blown off yes, but the blow was blocked. Try again.


Dude, stop this. You're just making shit up now. Missing has nothing to do with it, Hitsugaya's ice blocking anything worth mentioning is a joke, stop with the madness man.
Oh my god. Are you blind? I mean seriously... >>


Um, no, your imagination disallows you to picture the one solution to that, being that Harribel's defense is better than her offense.

Stop coming up with retardedly alternate explanations of manga canon that you feel you need to come up with in order to appear erudite. It just fails horribly because you're trying to inject your personal theories into the debate.
So she tanked all those blows then, despite us the clear implications of a sword swing swatted all three of their blows away... You do realize you're argument is just asinine now right? I certainly hope you don't try again to refute it by changing the point again.

This is swordplay. Harribel is on the defensive the entire time. Not one time did she actually strike herself but to parry in every instance we saw of her, as in every strike we saw was one that diverted another coming to her. Up to and including that one.

Edit: Wait, forgot the first blow. It's invalid regardless as you'll note Lisa blocks it from the flat side and tries to drive the thrusting blow down and Hiyori ducks under it (Which is technically how you're supposed to do it but that's neither here nor there) so they didn't take her attacks head on regardless.

I'll note in the same instance Hitsugaya seems entirely unworried by the attack and is prepared to block it sealed, which either means he could take it, or he was bloody high, I won't be using it as a point regardless though as it didn't exactly say either way for sure.


Look dude, she overwhelms him several times in a row. Can you seriously stop with the Ad Nauseum? It's getting tedious repeating my arguments.
Congrats, you just repeated EVERY INVALID POINT and came full circle. Take a hint dude and try rectifying the points with the discussion rather than repeating the exact same invalid thing.

None of those hit him. Ergo he was not overwhelmed. His defense was broken in the last yes but he got no damage at all. Not overwhelmed. The second was completely blocked, so not only is using that as an example retarded, but it's actually a point for the point you're trying to refute, Not overwhelmed. The last isn't even him.

Not Overwhelmed. Try again with valid points. Namely when she hit him with that sword slash ability of hers, though he outright tanked that so that also wasn't being overhwhelmed.


Let me give you a very simple comparison to figure out. Harribel's cero completely shattered Hitsugaya's ice. Stark's ceros are stronger, and Tengumaru from unmasked Love is stronger than Stark's cero.

Now, how the hell does Love fail to hurt Hitsugaya? That's the main issue.
First of all, not stronger to say the least. Granted he's got some kind of dispersal thing going on that I never figured out, but that doesn't speak of the strength of the weapon, nor of the blunt force. That speaks of the defensive properties of the weapon, see also Koma's shikai not putting a dent in it. The blunt force itself? Did jack all even with a direct hit. Starrk outright avoided his own cero, what does that tell you?


No, I'm not. And Naruto and Pokemon are irrelevant. YOU brought them up, YOU show how it's relevant, or else YOU can concede.
Uh no. YOU brought this up. You said fire beats ice. You have literally no support for this, fire and ice have never clashed ever in this manga, and the functional properties of both element users are so different and so shifted to the ice side in this case (In terms of the element mind, that tech has some INSANE blunt force to pull that makes the pitiful amount of fire irrelevant) that even bringing up the point is asinine. I'm saying there isn't enough information to say what would happen. I'm completely validated in this, because I already showed that multiple series take it as they will with no regard to actual logic. And Bleach is much the same as those.

There's no arguing this point. There is NOT. ENOUGH. INFORMATION.


Let me tell you this: Irrelevant
Relevant. You made the comparison to constant stream of fire and constant ice. Constant regening Ice is on Hitsugayas side. A set amount of the surface area of the weapon is on Loves.

Granted it ultimately falls down to mechanics, reiatsu, elemental trumping etc... but that's the point.


Yes, and Tengumaru and fire will clearly have a problem getting past minute amounts of water and water vapor because Hitsugaya controls it.
It will if all the ice it manages to melt simply reforms under it. It only depends on the rate of melting to reforming going on there, which again, isn't known.


Why would they need to push her back? What purpose would it serve? Why is it necessary?

Most importantly of all, what would pushing her back signify when she was attacked from all sides at once?
They're all in front of her. At the climax of that clash they were all clearly directly before her. Granted at varying angles, but none of them pushed her back despite the onslaught. Pushing her back would signify their attack powers were greater than hers. If Lisa and Harribel were roughly equal, she powers up, gets support from two others, clearly that would be the case. It wasn't.


Yeah and that's like completely irrelevant because

1) Tengumaru has a full set of spikes on it
2) They're still not immune from internal damage
3) Hitsugaya doesn't have Hierro

In other words concession accepted
1. Yeah, and those did WONDERS with a direct Hit to Starrk. You'll note every hit by that thing ignores the spikes, particularly when he outright blocks it with guns.
2. Valid, however Internal damage pretty much never happens even with insane blunt force strikes like that. I point to every example I pulled before, and of all those remaining only two had anything decent. And that involved broken arms, which is completely irrelevant here.
3. He has a high level defense resistant to blunt force and insane tanking capacity. Starrk's hierro was nothing notable and his tanking capacity while decent nearly crippled him in the final bouts of that fight, though granted comparing the two is rough when alls said and done. Ultimately though it wasn't anything Love did that remotely brought him down, bar distracting him, which is all that's required for this line of thought.

Waking_Dreamer
March 23, 2011, 10:08 PM
I don't recall Hitsu taking too much damage tbh... Vs Gin = none, Vs Shawlong, Shawlong attacked his ice, not him, Vs Luppi, he got taken down by his tentacles pretty easily, although admittedly was intentionally laying low so he could power up his Bankai... I don't recall the details of Hallibel but I don't remember her doing too much to her either... got 1-shotted by Aizen. I'm sure you probably have some examples I've overlooked or you wouldn't have made your statement, but I don't recall any major tanking feats of his.

Shawlong - Body Tanking Slash:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Shawlongtank1.png

Of course taking into consideration the limiter reduces Hitsugayas power, reaction, speed, durability and stamina by 80%. No limit Hitsugya (even though would never be tagged by the likes of Shawlong) wouldnt be as damaged if Shawlong had a free body slash on him.

Harribel - Ice Wing Tank:


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/harribel1.png

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/M7_Bleach_Ch355_06.png

Harribel - Body Tanking Projectile Azul

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/shawlong2.png

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/harribel2.png

exacta
March 23, 2011, 10:21 PM
Shawlong - Body Tanking Slash:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Shawlongtank1.png

Of course taking into consideration the limiter reduces Hitsugayas power, reaction, speed, durability and stamina by 80%. No limit Hitsugya (even though would never be tagged by the likes of Shawlong) wouldnt be as damaged if Shawlong had a free body slash on him.

Harribel - Ice Wing Tank:


Harribel - Body Tanking Projectile Azul

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/shawlong2.png

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/harribel2.png

Hitsu did not "tank" Shawlongs attack. After he released his limit and dispatched him, he collapsed and had to be healed by Orihime. And both of your other 2 photos show Hitsugaya getting driven into a corner by an unsealed Halibel. In one of your photos Halibel actuallly makes a comment about how shes rather unimpressed with his performance.

Thats not tanking. Tanking is Kenpachi still being able to fight after getting all those slashes from Nnoitra, or Komamura being able to fight after getting hit by Los Nueves Aspectos. As I said before, he eventually collapsed from Shawlongs attack, and the two attacks from Halibel were not fatal attacks like Shawlongs, and despite that one of them actually sent him crashing into the ground. If getting up after them was anything impressive, Halibel would've made a point to praise him rather than express disappointment. Tanking and taking lots of damage is not one of Hitsugaya's strong points IMO anyway.

I don't see why that would be a decisive factor in this match-up though, since it doesn't seem like any of the participants are what I would call "tanks"IMO. So I'm not saying that because I don't think tanking is one of Hitsus strong points that his team will lose.

Random101
March 23, 2011, 10:26 PM
Uh... he continued fighting after all those slashes. You just outlined EXACTLY what he did. Granted he fell right after the battles were over (Well in the shawlong case anyway), but so did Kenpachi after Ichigo was on the ground in a pool of his own blood. Tanking is the ability to take massive damage and keep fighting to a decent capacity. This is why Starrk tanked Shunsui's Kageoni, despite that he was clearly screwed after that hit, and Ulquiorra tanked Ichinator's slash, even if he died because of it immediately after (Though granted that case he only faught a little after, but he did knock him out of it at least). Hitsugaya did precisely that. Granted he did far better in the Harribel case, but considering he was shredded again against Shawlong, that's to be expected.

Waking_Dreamer
March 23, 2011, 10:32 PM
@ exacta

Your definition of tanking is very, very wrong.

Tanking is getting hit by an attack, but still being able to fight after that. Anyone else will agree.

Hitsugaya got slashed like that at least twice with his limiter...but did he stop fighting? No, he kept up with it.

Komamuras tanking BugTousens attack is less tanking than Hitsugaya by defintion. He was unable to defend himself straight after the attack - unlike Hitsugaya. Who cares if its fatal or not? An attack is determined fatal or not by the person tanking it. If Harribel did those attacks on VC - it probably be fatal. Difference is Hitsugaya is captain level.

Koma tanked Powws punch didnt he? Was that attack fatal to Koma? Does that mean he didnt tank it if it was not fatal?

ShootToKill
March 24, 2011, 11:20 AM
Hmm... I'd say tanking is more being hit by an attack and being able to continue as though nothing happened - basically if someone's endurance is so high that, despite the attack connecting properly, it is insufficient to make a considerable difference to their fighting ability. Hitsu definitely seemed to be in trouble after being struck vs Shawlong, so I wouldn't necessarily say he tanked the hit. For instance, would you call Rukia being run through by Kaien/Aaroniero "tanking" because she was able to stab him through the head afterwards?

edit: sorry, heads :D

Random101
March 24, 2011, 11:49 AM
Dude was still able to avoid subsequent blows and kept up with him after release. I'm not saying he wasn't in trouble, he was, but that was less due to the wound, and more due to the fact that the limitor was utterly screwing him over. He was having issues already even prior to the guy's release. His fighting ability was hardly deterred at all if he went from having trouble to having more trouble upon him getting stronger.

The Rukia case isn't a valid comparison because, frankly, she was pretty much dead after the strike, you can actually tell when they're pretty much done in that they pretty much can't do anything other than make some token resistance. Ichigo after getting hit by the Black Cero was the same. This is more a case of Ichigo tanking Grimmjaw's pellet things (in terms of comparison, not strength obviously). Yes he was having serious trouble immediately after, but that was more due to the fact that he was having trouble with Grimmjaw already, in part due to his strength at that point being kinda garbage and mostly due to the fact that Orihime freaking out was a serious downer on him. Overall immediately after he was clearly keeping up with the dude and trading blows to roughly the same efficency he was before even if the injuries were frankly more minor.

Waking_Dreamer
March 24, 2011, 12:18 PM
What Random101 posted was the standard definition of tanking in any battle thread/forum.

This is also another example of a perfectly acceptable feat in the terms of (Grimmjow) tanking:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-12.html

Consider he looked pretty fucked up from the attack, but its undeniable he tanked it nonetheless.

Disregarding that accepted definition of tanking will simply make people confused when you use that term in a discussion. To say Histugaya hasnt tanked anything in the manga would be incorrect.

Henry J. Gloval
March 24, 2011, 12:18 PM
So, Random, who did you vote for? If I may know, that is. :)
And forgive me, but Hitsu is not in the tor five of the most resilent people in Bleach in my book. Yama, Koma, Ken, Byakuya, Ichigo have shown much greater tanking abilities you must agree. :)
Hitsu is ok, too, but has nothing on their level. Still, he is just a kid, we should all give him some due respect. In relatively near future he will grow and become quite bad ass. I bet on it!;-)
In this fight, though, he doesn't have much of a shot. He is against Love who I'm pretty certain can beat him. Given his relatively poor strenght, and the problems he had with Harribel in CQC, he would have to force his distance attacks, but Love is able to catch up to him, and give him quite some trouble with his sheer blunt power, and of course, his named attack is devastating. No wing shielding here, I believe. Hitsugaya could use some binding kido on him and then Ruy Senka him, but it is a slim chance. Love boasts incredible physical might, kido wont hold him in place for long.
Even he can deal somehow with Love, Zomari will jump in with Amor, or unreleased to help Love out. Poor Hitsu, his tag partner wont help him at all, she might be a liability if Zomari takes her over. 3 to 1 is not fair game, but quite possible here.
Chocolate Love is Overpowered.

Random101
March 24, 2011, 12:56 PM
Ichigo doesn't tank half the time which is why I rate him lower. Ignoring both Ichinator and Dangai, he tends to go down with rather simple wounds. Consider against Kenpachi, one stab to the chest downs him, requiring Zangetsu to keep the wound closed for him, or how one direct hit from Ulquiorra's cero wiped him out. Most of the time he gets off with rather simple wounds. For example, the Grimmjaw fight he took no significant damage. Granted he took multiple pelets and a few slashes, but nothing to the degree that he was literally bleeding out half his body mass. And the resulting injuries, despite the fact that he was clearly still full power (LOL Cloak Retcon) were such that he was utterly boned against a fraccion Kenpachi downed with little more than a shrug.

Byakuya... eh, he did take three Black Getsuuga from Shirosaki... but considering the strength of that attack is seriously in question, and the damage he took was minor all in all, I wouldn't rate him as a tank. He has high defense yes, but tanking is fundamentally taking huge amounts of damage and keeping on going. Byakuya's injuries tend to be exceedingly minor, he had literally one decent slash on him that entire fight.

As to voting, were I not as miffed as I am with Ichigo's continual advancing in the face of clearly superior opponents, I'd agree the combination of Love and Zomari are enough to take him down most of the time with practical ease providing semi decent teamwork, which is rather simple as one's an attacker with great offensive and pursuit ability to easily keep him on his toes and one works damn fine as support. However here based on that same logic that gave Ichigo a pass (more from Starrk than bloody Yammi I'll admit), I'm banking on HH to take out Zommari the immobile pumpkin with ease, and then a rather simple fight with Love who I hold he can beat rather simply with bankai.

With effort mind and some quick thinking, meaning it wouldn't be a rape by any stretch of the imagination, but bar the fire hit he doesn't have much in the way to worry about that he can't defend from or even in that case outright avoid.

ShootToKill
March 24, 2011, 01:05 PM
I don't believe Zommari will find it necessary to release - he can take out Rukia with ease, and then it'll be two very fast opponents, one of whom is a masked ex Captain, against one who is not known for his speed. Unless you believe Hitsu can take on two such opponents simultaneously, I don't see how he can win this one.

Love will definitely exceed Hitsugaya in terms of raw power, and judging by Starrk's comment and the fact that he could withstand an explosion from a huge number of Starrk's wolves, he is extremely durable, more so again than Hitsugaya, who imo still hasn't shown real durability feats. He took a slash from a fraccion and was able to (barely) continue fighting. Considering he doesn't have hierro, a hit from Love's giant cactus is going to do a lot more damage to Hitsu than it did to Starrk.

Random101
March 24, 2011, 01:21 PM
Eh, I hold him as top three most durable bar Yamamoto, so coupled with high defense basic bashes with the mallet ain't doing jack bar knocking him into crap and superficial owies if he goes for successive blows. To get downed it's going to take a direct hit with the named attack once, maybe twice on a good day (or if he nails the defense full force both times), but beyond that it'll be rough goings.

Zommari I hold will release. Granted he stands to gain more by not doing so, barely, but that's true of Byakuya too, he practically had the guy even factoring in Cicada. And frankly the best plan for teamwork against any single opponent would be Love attacking, Zommari trying to screw him over with Amor. That's the plan I'd go with practically any time, particularly if I don't know what they can do, playing it safer is always better than trying to bum rush a dude not knowing if that's a good idea or not. Hitsugaya's speed's neither lacking nor is his capacity to know when to dodge and avoid direct strikes, and Zommari's slashes ain't getting through the wings if Harribel's blade couldn't, and high level reactions he's shown keep the holes in that defense more or less covered.

Though granted double teaming I hold screws virtually anyone save Aizen as powered by plot and Yamamoto, bend over and it'll be over a little quicker, over so even that's a slippery slope...

Henry J. Gloval
March 24, 2011, 01:40 PM
Random, you cant be serious about about Ichigo and Byakuya not tanking much. :-|
In their fight alone Ichigo was crushed by SKY, had his shoulder pierced through by Byakurai, stabbed in the foot and several other injuries. Against Grimjow in Hueco Mundo he went through hell to win. Say that bullet attack Grim launched at Nel and Hime, he took it in the back like it was nothing. Grim kicked him around several times and he always got up without much difficulty.
Byakuya took 3 GT from Hichigo, a slash from him and a stab from Ichigo, He still flash stepped away and got in time to save Rukia from Gin, taking a shot that bifurcated Hiory in his chest, but lived on. That is impressive, and how about him cutting his tendons in both his arm and leg, then still owning Zomari in a more impressive way than Hitsu beat Shawlong. One sealed slash, come on?! :-D
Do not downplay their achievements, Hitsu has nothing on them.
[hr]
Nice to see you voted logicaly. :)
I firmly believe Chocolate Love is overpowered. Hax espada and Wizard captain? Really, balance is out of question. :(

Crystal Black
March 24, 2011, 02:14 PM
Team Chocolate Love take this for obvious reasons even though I believe Hitsugaya is stronger then Zommari/Love individually. Rukia is strong for her rank, but she can't deal with either of them. I don't know how Histugaya could bypass Amor but he has methods. After Rukia is dealt with, this quickly becomes one-sided even more.

ShootToKill
March 24, 2011, 02:16 PM
Ok, let's say Zommari either takes out Rukia, then releases, or he releases then controls Rukia. First scenario it's Love vs Hitsu with Zommari on the sidelines using amor - what if he "possesses" Hitsugaya's sword arm while he's attacking Love? Then it's game over immediately. If he releases then controls Rukia, then Hitsu will be simultaneously fighting off Love, and fighting off Rukia while trying to spare her life, AND the remaining threat of Zommari using Amor. Since I believe Love has what it takes to overpower Hitsu in CQC alone, this should certainly screw him. I don't see how he'll have the opportunity to use HH while constantly defending against Love's attacks.

Random101
March 24, 2011, 02:57 PM
First scenario it's Love vs Hitsu with Zommari on the sidelines using amor - what if he "possesses" Hitsugaya's sword arm while he's attacking Love?
Problem: His sword arm is covered in Ice, presuming he's in bankai, which frankly against Love is a necessity (Again, Love Rapestomps his shikai). This effectively gives him a valid way to negate that, having control over ice and a regening bankai armor effectively gives him a way to, presumably, disconnect the controlled part, allowing it to melt and the armor to simply reform in not controlled glory.

Granted ice is see through, but so is Danku and that worked just fine, so assuming that's valid there's a reasonable way to frankly negate control over any ice part.

Similarly Rukia's fodder for Hitsugaya, especially reduced to only basic movement, sparing her life is easily 'freeze everything from the head down' which is neigh effortless even in shikai.



On Byakuya and Ichigo... Yeah neither of them had wounds like this at any point in their fights and kept going:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Shawlongtank1.png

The amount of bloodloss alone is insane. Bar the BS getting up from a hole in the chest brought on by plotkai from Ichigo, neither of them ever got up from a wound that bad, let alone kept fighting under those circumstances. Again, Ichigo went down from a minor puncture wounds and cero's at times for crying out loud, and while valid he kept going after getting hit by Byakuya's bankai... frankly the first state rarely does much in the way of damage with just one pass (It's consecutive attacks and the inability to defend from that many petals for a majority of people that makes it dangerous).

I point you to comparative damage it did to Yammi as opposed to a single patched slash from Kenpachi. Let me remind you, Ichigo actually overpowered Unpatched Kenpachi by supercharging only his shikai, and then try comparing the power behind the two there. Granted, Yammi has Hierro which certainly makes the comparison murky, but the thing didn't even down a completely defenseless Renji adequately (ruined his day obviously but he still got up if only for a second), which in itself is kinda sad.

Byakuya's worst wound was one slash to a significantly lesser depth than the above, and while valid he tanked three getsuuga, the power of those is iffy in the forefront (Name me a person who went down to a Getsuuga. Beyond Renji, every one of Ichigo's getsuuga never did significant damage to anyone it actually hit, masked or not, his slashes have always done more damage than that move), and the wounds he had were not significant in the slightest. Going down that route is arguing defensive capacity anyway, which while a part of it doesn't take into account sheer durability. Are you seriously arguing that cutting your tendons to negate the movement of your arm and leg, an injury that is specifically designed to do as little damage as possible to maximize the results is as significant as that above?

Granted you have a point in that it's impressive he could actually shunpo with one foot effectively nulled, but that's not tanking. Not when it's specifically meant to do as little damage as possible. That's the very antithesis of tanking. However arguing that it's impressive that he won with one foot down and one leg nulled is kinda dumb when his bankai is literally designed not to require his body in any facet in the first state, and effectively ruined his day regardless. Byakuya didn't need those two because the arsenal he had worked fine without them, the only time he used either was when he shupoed to the guy and cut him in two after he was pretty much defeated anyway after that point, a majority of the damage/nulling of amor was caused by the bankai and the barrier was a simple spoken phrase away. Though again, shunpoing with a foot nulled is slick regardless.

Henry J. Gloval
March 24, 2011, 03:36 PM
Random, one quick question. Which tank is better? One that takes more damage or one that takes less of it? In games, from where I believe the term "tanking" stems, it is always better for the tank to minimize damage taken, by means of armor and such, then have him fight so close to death. That was my point when I said Ichigo and Byakuya are better tanks. They take less damage from devastating attacks that would decimate other people. I believe Urahara said a shikai GT would have cut of his arm were it not for the shield he put up. Are you debating that a bankai GT, hell 3 of them are something to be sneezed at? I do not believe so. I hope you see my point now? Hitsu took that much damage from a slash by a fracion, while under limiter yes, and him surviving that much damage is great, but a bit underwhelming for my taste. He was knocked aside by Luppi, and as result of his miserable performance, Rangiku almost stared in torture hentai. Were it not for Urahara, she would have died probably. Yes he did get back in the fight, but my point is he was down, and he admited that Luppi could have finished him, if he didnt turn his attention to Rangiku and co. That is not tanking. He was hit, fell to the ground and admitted himself he was sure to lose if Luppi kept on attacking him.
I'm not downplaying him, but he is not among the better tanks in SS.
I guess we have to agree to disagree, mate? :) No ill feelings? I may sound a bit harsh at times, but I mean no harm. Take care

Random101
March 24, 2011, 03:52 PM
A tank fundamentally in terms of how I use it is one who can take absolutely massive amounts of damage and keep coming. Defense is part of it, but durability is a larger part of it. Ichigo for example fell with a simple chest stab, Kenpachi and Yamamoto however outright ignore pitiful things like chest stabs (Kenpachi being more impressive as he took an entire arm in his chest and ignored it, but Yamamoto took a goddamn nuke so it evens out). This is not mind in reference to powerful attacks, frankly I don't even hold those attacks particularly powerful in the first place, bar things like that nuke Yama took.

Kenpachi for example has kinda lousy defense. Granted he relies on that whole 'you're weaker than me so you can't cut me' but on the whole he's easily damaged by thinks like shikai's and the like of virtually anyone in the ball park of captain level. See Tousen's shikai thing. Every espada with Hierro by definition has a better defense than he does (save potentially #9 being a gillian and all, though potentially a few fraccion may have better defense too if their heirro's compensate for their lack of overall power... Depends really). What makes him an excellent tank however is how he virtually ignores absolutely massive amounts of damage to his body. Tosen's shikai utterly speared him, and he didn't even flinch. Nnoitra was utterly tearing him up and he kept on laughing. Ichigo was cutting him to ribbons and he didn't even notice. That's primarily what tanking means.

Mind defense isn't just neglected here, that's entirely part of it. The Shawlong feat would be much worse than it is if his reiatsu weren't crippled in the process. But true tanks not only take blows, see Harribel's direct hit on Hitsugaya with that energy sword thing, Kenpachi backhanding a cero, and indeed Byakuya taking three Getsuuga, but also take ungodly amounts of damage and keep coming.

You are right in terms of games that tanks have good defense... however from what I understand tanks also have ungodly amounts of health too (keeping in mind the only 'tank' I've had direct contact with being goddamn Goofy in KH). Those are the players that should be taking multiple blows that would kill say squishy mages (Keeping in mind I'm only speaking in reference to bloody Donald) in one shot and shrug it off, hence Defense and Health both are playing into effect there. Least that's how I understood it.

Henry J. Gloval
March 24, 2011, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the response, Random. I understand your point now, but I steel do not agree. :)
Its just me and my game preferences. I always opt for great armor and medium health points. Never poor armour on a tank and great HP. Maybe because armour in Warcraft is percentile? Could be.:D
Now, I believe that in Bleach good defence is more important than HP, since no health potions are allowed mid battle. You probably think otherwise, its totally legit. Chocolate Love will probably win the whole tournament. It is a bit pointless for you and me to argue about personal preferencies in this thread? We can continue in the discussion thread, or just leave it be, you decide. :D
By all means thank you for a nice and clean argument. Cheers!

El Samurai Guapo
March 24, 2011, 09:01 PM
I'll admit Love & Zommari have it easy here, and these teams certainly are unbalanced; but even if it was Rukia on Love's team and Zommari on the kid's side I'd still favor Love. Love is easily one of the strongest captains/ex-captains. I'd rank him third after Shinji and Kisuke, but ahead of the likes of Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Shunsui.

I normally don't say that a captain can defeat another captain's bankai with his/her shikai, but there are some exceptions. One obviously being Yoruichi because she has abnormal hand to hand skills, the others being the vaizards while fighting with shikai + mask. The mask being added to Love's already impressive shikai is enough to deal with Toushirou's bankai. I don't think he'd survive even one minute of hollow Love, let alone three. Hollowfication is the SSj/Gear Second/Sennin mode transformation of bleach. If Toushirou was a hybrid, I'd vote for him in a hearbeat. His bankai with a hollow mask would be insane.

xXan
March 25, 2011, 03:38 AM
Problem: His sword arm is covered in Ice, presuming he's in bankai, which frankly against Love is a necessity (Again, Love Rapestomps his shikai). This effectively gives him a valid way to negate that, having control over ice and a regening bankai armor effectively gives him a way to, presumably, disconnect the controlled part, allowing it to melt and the armor to simply reform in not controlled glory.

Granted ice is see through, but so is Danku and that worked just fine, so assuming that's valid there's a reasonable way to frankly negate control over any ice part.

Similarly Rukia's fodder for Hitsugaya, especially reduced to only basic movement, sparing her life is easily 'freeze everything from the head down' which is neigh effortless even in shikai.



On Byakuya and Ichigo... Yeah neither of them had wounds like this at any point in their fights and kept going:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Shawlongtank1.png

The amount of bloodloss alone is insane. Bar the BS getting up from a hole in the chest brought on by plotkai from Ichigo, neither of them ever got up from a wound that bad, let alone kept fighting under those circumstances. Again, Ichigo went down from a minor puncture wounds and cero's at times for crying out loud, and while valid he kept going after getting hit by Byakuya's bankai... frankly the first state rarely does much in the way of damage with just one pass (It's consecutive attacks and the inability to defend from that many petals for a majority of people that makes it dangerous).

I point you to comparative damage it did to Yammi as opposed to a single patched slash from Kenpachi. Let me remind you, Ichigo actually overpowered Unpatched Kenpachi by supercharging only his shikai, and then try comparing the power behind the two there. Granted, Yammi has Hierro which certainly makes the comparison murky, but the thing didn't even down a completely defenseless Renji adequately (ruined his day obviously but he still got up if only for a second), which in itself is kinda sad.

Byakuya's worst wound was one slash to a significantly lesser depth than the above, and while valid he tanked three getsuuga, the power of those is iffy in the forefront (Name me a person who went down to a Getsuuga. Beyond Renji, every one of Ichigo's getsuuga never did significant damage to anyone it actually hit, masked or not, his slashes have always done more damage than that move), and the wounds he had were not significant in the slightest. Going down that route is arguing defensive capacity anyway, which while a part of it doesn't take into account sheer durability. Are you seriously arguing that cutting your tendons to negate the movement of your arm and leg, an injury that is specifically designed to do as little damage as possible to maximize the results is as significant as that above?

Granted you have a point in that it's impressive he could actually shunpo with one foot effectively nulled, but that's not tanking. Not when it's specifically meant to do as little damage as possible. That's the very antithesis of tanking. However arguing that it's impressive that he won with one foot down and one leg nulled is kinda dumb when his bankai is literally designed not to require his body in any facet in the first state, and effectively ruined his day regardless. Byakuya didn't need those two because the arsenal he had worked fine without them, the only time he used either was when he shupoed to the guy and cut him in two after he was pretty much defeated anyway after that point, a majority of the damage/nulling of amor was caused by the bankai and the barrier was a simple spoken phrase away. Though again, shunpoing with a foot nulled is slick regardless.

Ice is not going to stop that. Byakuya had you use a high level Kido to stop its effects. The spell does not effect the ice but the hand under it. Also what if he target's the face?

Actualy i can't even belive you would compare Danku to ice and state you can see trough both of them and if one of them can stop the spell so can the other ... One is a somewhat high level barrier and the other is just ice. The barrier has some properties that allow it to do that... There is no way in hell ice would stop that spell.

Random101
March 25, 2011, 11:14 AM
Frankly I didn't even buy a high level Kido was even required. His logic behind his conclusion was kinda dumb. He based his assumption on the effectiveness of a binding kido, specifically designed to stop the target from moving on Rukia. Uh, how would Amor keep a mid level binding Kido from working?

Put something condensed with Reiatsu in front of it, and I'm assuming it'll block it from reaching however. Kido, Ice, Byakuya's bankai petals (Which noticeably was apparently safe enough that he even left himself partially visible to the guy), etc... I'm assuming it'll block.

You are correct that if he manages to get the head he's screwed, however frankly I don't buy he can accurately get a head shot whenever he wants. Otherwise he frankly should have destroyed Byakuya when the fight started.

ShootToKill
March 25, 2011, 11:18 AM
I felt he could only control the head of someone with lower Reiatsu than himself - otherwise he could have gone for Byakuya's head initially.

leshrak
March 25, 2011, 11:38 AM
I felt he could only control the head of someone with lower Reiatsu than himself - otherwise he could have gone for Byakuya's head initially.

Just like how Shinji should have aimed for Aisen head oh his first attack :) ... I think that's just kubo trolling his own characters :amuse

Random101
March 25, 2011, 12:19 PM
He actually did. Tousen just screwed him over. Granted he didn't in shikai... but to be perfectly honest attempting a headshot when your ability is just reversal, ie: Going for a target near the center, is kinda dumb. Granted he should have gone for more than a superficial wound, but them's the bricks.

leshrak
March 25, 2011, 12:28 PM
He actually did. Tousen just screwed him over. Granted he didn't in shikai... but to be perfectly honest attempting a headshot when your ability is just reversal, ie: Going for a target near the center, is kinda dumb. Granted he should have gone for more than a superficial wound, but them's the bricks.

I mean when he used sakanade

Random101
March 25, 2011, 12:34 PM
I know, I referenced that bit in the next part of it. :P

That being said, for headshots being as lethal as they are to virtually everything, why does literally no one ever go for one? Even with multiple chances hardly anyone ever goes for the head.

Henry J. Gloval
March 26, 2011, 06:46 AM
Only Ken went for a headshot against Nnoitra. Actually, an eyeshot, but he managed to miss... Bloody hollow hole in the head, how lame is that?:-(

Waking_Dreamer
March 26, 2011, 10:34 AM
Only Ken went for a headshot against Nnoitra. Actually, an eyeshot, but he managed to miss... Bloody hollow hole in the head, how lame is that?:-(

Actually:
Hitsugaya went for a Headshot against Harribel
Gin when for a headshot against Histuagaya
Tosen went for a headshot against Shinji
Kenpachi when for a head shot against Ichigo
Shunsui against Starrk and maybe Aizen IIRC

Interestingly, only Hisagi and Rukia were actually successful.

Snake_Cowboy
March 26, 2011, 01:34 PM
Rather late to post in this thread, but I was pretty sure about who was going to win this match from the beginning: Team Chocolate Love should take this.

While he's not the most powerful, I do believe Love to be one of the strongest of the Vizards, especially when it comes to direct combat. Hitsugaya is going to have a handful with this guy, even if he's only using his shikai: Tengumaru really isn't something you want to get clobbered over the head with. Hitsugaya is good and with his small size on top of his skill, he'll be able to dodge quite well - but the thing is, if Tengumaru can tank Stark's Ceros with such astounding ease, then Hyourinmaru is going to be worthless. Love will smash his way right through most ice-attacks, so I suspect he will be able to force Hitsugaya to go Bankai pretty quick.

But as with all matches for Team Chocolate Love so far, it's Zommari who will be the game-changer: I just cannot see any way for Rukia to win or even last long against the likes of him. If his speed gave Byakuya trouble, then Rukia's totally screwed. At the most, she will be able to defend herself for a little while, but with those clones, there's no way she'll ever hit him. Although Sode no Shirayuki's attacks can be quite wide-spread, they take way too long to start up; anything that could give Zommari trouble, he'll dodge. Not that they will, because if Grimmjow can break from that ice so easily, then Zommari probably can too. Really, with that kind of Sonido, the guy can kill Rukia whenever he wants. That is, if he doesn't release and tries to posses her: if Byakuya isn't fast enough to dodge Amor, then Rukia sure as hell isn't.

Either way, Rukia will either be dead or under Zommari's control long before the fight between Hitsugaya and Love is finished.

Against Daiguren Hyourinmaru, Love is going to be in trouble and I'm not sure he'd win the fight, but with his mask and that flame-attack, he'll last for a while. Once Zommari joins the fight, it's over. There's no way Hitsugaya is good enough to dodge both Amor and Tengumaru (and Rukia, possibly) at the same time. The second one of his arms gets possessed and starts interfering with his fighting skills, Hitsugaya will get pulverised by Love. Hyoten Hyakkaso might save the day, but it takes a little time before he can use it, time in which Zommari or Love will have a clean shot at him. No matter how you turn it, Love will break Hitsugaya eventually.

Team Chocolate wins.

Tsukisama
March 27, 2011, 11:57 PM
Team Chocolate Love wins! They shall advance into the next round. Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread.

Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny