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igotthegoods
April 01, 2011, 01:59 PM
Aizen vs. Shinji

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14668.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Aizen

Aizen Sōsuke, an evil-supergenius megalomaniac and former 5th division captain, is a master of machinations and manipulation. His virtual mastery of all facets of shinigami combat fuels his superiority complex and set him on a quest to become the most supreme being in existence. His zanpakutō, Kyouka Suigetsu, allows him in shikai to manipulate the five senses of any person that has ever seen his initial release. The only method to avoid being trapped in Aizen's illusions is to touch Kyōka Suigetsu's blade before complete hypnosis is activated.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Shinji

Hirako Shinji is a recruiter and the de facto leader of the Visored, and was previously the captain of the 5th Division in the Gotei 13. Shinji is somewhat comical, adding a bit of levity to situations that are otherwise serious. Shinji's zanpakutō is named Sakanade. The blade releases a scent that inverts and reverses the enemy's visual perception. Shinji claims that it is impossible to comprehend the attack directions, as the more experienced one is, the more one relies on instinct to fight, causing one to inevitably fall prey to Sakanade.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned


Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

LucyBenard
April 02, 2011, 12:10 AM
Hint: we've already seen this battle in the manga :)

Aizen has this one in the bag:

Speed: Aizen
Reiatsu: Aizen
Kido: Aizen
Swordsmanship: Aizen
Abilities: Aizen
Intellect: Aizen
Strength: Aizen

Also, Aizen DID NOT lolKS-troll Shinji in the manga; the cut inflicted on Aizen's arm can be seen later on throughout the chapter. We did not see it 10 chapters later because the author simply neglected it.

ShootToKill
April 02, 2011, 12:19 AM
Unfortunately there isn't much to say here - Shinji is overpowered and outhaxed, and I would guess his release isn't any quicker than Aizen's, so he doesn't have what is necessary to gain the upper hand here.

Looking forward to Shinji vs Shunsui (or Yama - ha) though, should incite some good arguments :D

El Samurai Guapo
April 02, 2011, 12:29 AM
I think that one would come down to who uses their shikai on who first. While Aizen has the advantage of having a clearly superior hypnosis ability, Shinji's is easier for him to use on his opponents, and once Aizen is in the inverted world he may have a hard time getting Shinji to watch his release. Moreover, Shinji does not trust Aizen so he'll be naturally suspicious of Aizen telling him to look at his zanpakutou.

I voted for Kisuke over Aizen, and I consider Shinji around Kisuke's level (maybe lil' bit higher) so Shinji for me. Definitely more on this later.

LucyBenard
April 02, 2011, 12:33 AM
I think that one would come down to who uses their shikai on who first. While Aizen has the advantage of having a clearly superior hypnosis ability, Shinji's is easier for him to use on his opponents, and once Aizen is in the inverted world he may have a hard time getting Shinji to watch his release. Moreover, Shinji does not trust Aizen so he'll be naturally suspicious of Aizen telling him to look at his zanpakutou.

I voted for Kisuke over Aizen, and I consider Shinji around Kisuke's level (maybe lil' bit higher) so Shinji for me. Definitely more on this later.

Assuming that Shinji is the first to release his shikai, Aizen already had labeled it as nothing more than "Child's Play" in the manga, as he was able to deduce its effects and counter them with ease without even relying on KS.

Random101
April 02, 2011, 12:36 AM
Aizen, zero question. Lack of knowledge does work for both sides here, but Aizen's takes less time and is overall superior in every department. He actually managed to counter the thing too, though that was a crock of stupid let me tell you.

Deepak5191
April 02, 2011, 12:38 AM
Moreover, Shinji does not trust Aizen so he'll be naturally suspicious of Aizen telling him to look at his zanpakutou.

Not exactly sure what the rules are for the opponents knowing each others abilities straight of the bat in this tournament, but I'm going to assume that don't know the others abilities and would have to figure out during battle.

If I was fighting someone without previous knowledge about their abilities, I'd actually focus extra hard on their zanpaktou, trying to figure it out as soon as possible. Averting your eyes to what would normally be a physical attack or at least one you can see seems like a bad battle tactic.
As such I don't see Aizen having too much trouble setting up the release against Shinji.

Once it comes down to it, both combatants have their shikai's on, but Aizen's is just far more hax comparatively.

Sumoka Kimono
April 02, 2011, 12:38 AM
No call Aizen stupid! He very smart, very smart! He do things no one does! very smart, controlled everything and does now also! I voted Aizen! AIZEN RULE ALL!

Katz
April 02, 2011, 12:41 AM
Poor shinji....he already had to push his way past Ichigo....but now he gets 1 of the two superpowers in this tournament (other ofc being yama).....Aizen wins, unless shinji can somehow get his shikai off before Aizen uses KS

LucyBenard
April 02, 2011, 12:42 AM
No call Aizen stupid! He very smart, very smart! He do things no one does! very smart, controlled everything and does now also! I voted Aizen! AIZEN RULE ALL!

Yup :amuse

Sealed Aizen vs. Shikai Shinji was already demonstrated in the manga. Aizen already demonstrated that he possesses the intelligence to deduce Shinji's ability and the skills to counter it with ease.

I see Aizen winning this one without even releasing.

El Samurai Guapo
April 02, 2011, 12:49 AM
Assuming that Shinji is the first to release his shikai, Aizen already had labeled it as nothing more than "Child's Play" in the manga, as he was able to deduce its effects and counter them with ease without even relying on KS.

No he didn't. That wound literally disappeared. And not 10 chapters later like you said, the very next time we see Aizen's shoulder, in the very next chapter or two it's gone. You can argue it was an art fail, but I'll just say it wasn't. Moreover, even if he did land that hit, who's the say Aizen didn't use KS before Shinji rushed him the second time? Obviously it's impossible to tell, just like when he cut down Shinji and the three others later on. With Aizen you never know, which is why to say Sakanade can definitely be countered when the possibility that KS was used is very goddamn real is dumb.

Even moreover, their fight never finished; let's say Aizen did magically become adjusted to fighting with everything backwards in 10 goddamn seconds and was still quicker than Shinji. Hello, mask? Hello, the fact that he can start switching up which directions he has reversed? So the next time Aizen comes in expecting everything backwards it turns out only left/right is and he gets cut. etc. etc.

Yeah, Aizen's not beating Shinji sealed that's for damn sure. Shikai is a bloody given; he beats everyone with his shikai.

ShootToKill
April 02, 2011, 12:53 AM
Yup :amuse

Sealed Aizen vs. Shikai Shinji was already demonstrated in the manga. Aizen already demonstrated that he possesses the intelligence to deduce Shinji's ability and the skills to counter it with ease.

I see Aizen winning this one without even releasing.
Just because he deduced the ability (which Shinji told him the majority of), doesn't mean he can take Shinji down easily. Granted, Shinji was surprised when Aizen figured it out - he underestimated Aizen and was caught off guard. Still though, I believe that if he Shunpo'd around Aizen attacking him from various angles, Aizen would screw up eventually - having to process all of the information required to invert his movements every time would be too much even for Aizen. Also, while I believe Aizen is above Shinji in base, I don't believe it's by much.

So I think Shinji could probably take Aizen sealed, but doesn't stand a chance vs KS.

Sumoka Kimono
April 02, 2011, 01:13 AM
Just because he deduced the ability (which Shinji told him the majority of), doesn't mean he can take Shinji down easily. Granted, Shinji was surprised when Aizen figured it out - he underestimated Aizen and was caught off guard. Still though, I believe that if he Shunpo'd around Aizen attacking him from various angles, Aizen would screw up eventually - having to process all of the information required to invert his movements every time would be too much even for Aizen. Also, while I believe Aizen is above Shinji in base, I don't believe it's by much.

So I think Shinji could probably take Aizen sealed, but doesn't stand a chance vs KS.

No you silly nut! Aizen no caught off guard, he know what happen, he let Shinji do. Then he go bam and kill Shinji when he no expect! Aizen no never screw up or down, he too good. He know everything. :mad

Read manga, no make up facts. :-_-

emanresu
April 02, 2011, 06:36 AM
No you silly nut! Aizen no caught off guard, he know what happen, he let Shinji do. Then he go bam and kill Shinji when he no expect! Aizen no never screw up or down, he too good. He know everything. :mad

Read manga, no make up facts. :-_-

woah... someone from Japan backing up for Aizen sama. Welcome to MH.

CeroOskuraz
April 02, 2011, 07:11 AM
Lol, Aizen wins this one. I thought Base Aizen already beat Shikai Shinji?

Especially if they're IC; then Shinji's in for a world of hurt.

Xerneas
April 02, 2011, 07:14 AM
Shinji's track record against Aizen is terrible and he made a complete fool of himself in FKT. Although the conditions in this battle are different the outcome will be the same. The really bad news for Shinji is that he's one of only 3 people Aizen is actually wary of, so Aizen isn't going to just stand there and watch him release, seeing as he's free of hypnosis. If they don't release for some reason, he gets pwned cause he's outclassed physically, and if they do release he still gets pwned cause Kyouka Suigetsu is superior to Sakanade. Aizen should be dealing out another 100% treatment but I know thats not gonna happen. :eyeroll

AlB
April 02, 2011, 08:12 AM
woah... someone from Japan backing up for Aizen sama. Welcome to MH.

:XD hhahaaa I LOLed :D:D

Anyway, this is one good battle :) Two brilliant minds, two HaX-Lol Zans... but unfortunately only one shall advance forth.

Let's see:
If Aizen catches Shinji in KS before the latter releases Sakanade it's pretty much over. Aizen will simply sit back with cola and popcorn and watch Shinji fight thin air before murdering him

If Shinji releases Sakanade before Aizen releases KS then the former will be obvious victor. I mean, how is Aizen going to get Shiji under his Shikai once everything is reversed? Aizen, even with all his brilliant mind, will screw up at one point and will lose his head sooner or later. Fighting for a long time under Sakanade's effects is bound to be an enormous mental strain.

So it pretty much comes down to who releases his Shikai first. My bet (though I'm not voting yet) is on Aizen. Shinji seems like a cautious type and won't go shikai unless necessary. Aizen also is "better safe than sorry" guy, but in his case the sooner he releases the sooner he will be "safe", so to say :) Don't know honestly. Let's see what others have to say first.
[hr]

Shinji's track record against Aizen is terrible and he made a complete fool of himself in FKT.

Don't even remind me :facepalm That "kurosaki-kuuun!!!" "Ichiggooooo" moment was a death of me :darn

And while I agree that Aizen is wary of Shinji, here it does not matter. Here they are just random enemies and while, as I already mentioned, Aizen is "better safe than sorry" guy he still remains arrogant "I'm better than you" psycho with god complex :p
[hr]

No call Aizen stupid! He very smart, very smart! He do things no one does! very smart, controlled everything and does now also! I voted Aizen! AIZEN RULE ALL!

:worship2 :worship2 :worship2

Allll Haaaillllllll BRITAAANNNIIIAAAAA Aaaaaiizzeen-SAMMAAAAAA

Xerneas
April 02, 2011, 08:24 AM
Its true that Aizen is very arrogant, but a lot of that stemmed from the fact that he had a huge safety net - his opponents were under a flawless spell already. The thing about it for me is that, unlike Aizen, Shinji showed himself to be very foolish in battle. I'm not talking about KS cause you can't blame him for getting pwned like that, its the way he conducted himself. Rushing in head on and taking off his mask etc. I mean really. Aizen may be arrogant but this version is also shrewd. Even if Shinji did get him in reverse world, he only took one attack to figure it out anyway, and he also has himself protected from a certain one-shot attack with the random neck shield. So after one turn Shinji is still doomed, assuming he doesn't get KS-ed first to begin with.

cracker
April 02, 2011, 08:34 AM
Aizen wins through a superior shikai. Having superior base stats (feats) doesn't hurt his cause either.

Exodi
April 02, 2011, 10:55 AM
Aizen is stronger is every aspect. Period. Even Aizen's hair is better.
Aizen wins this. Sorry, Shinji.

SaintSheik
April 02, 2011, 11:56 AM
Even if Shinji was to release his shikai before Aizen releases his own, the match would still be in Aizen's favor. His level illusions are another level than the Inverted World. On top of that, Aizen is extremely powerful without KS, much more powerful than base/Masked Shinji IMHO.

This match looks cool on paper, but we've seen it and it was settled in a matter of pages. Aizen takes this and moves on to be annihilated by Yamamoto in the finals.

AlB
April 02, 2011, 12:07 PM
Even if Shinji was to release his shikai before Aizen releases his own, the match would still be in Aizen's favor. His level illusions are another level than the Inverted World. On top of that, Aizen is extremely powerful without KS, much more powerful than base/Masked Shinji IMHO.

This match looks cool on paper, but we've seen it and it was settled in a matter of pages. Aizen takes this and moves on to be annihilated by Yamamoto in the finals.

In all honesty... yeah. Still, it feels nice to play a devil's advocate once in a while :amuse
Looking forward to Shunsui vs Shinji for 3rd place :cheerbunny

tousendrinksbleach
April 02, 2011, 12:37 PM
aizen wins ....he will win then lose in the final to yama , as he himself expected when i asked him about the tournament results a few weeks before the matchs started

Tonix
April 02, 2011, 04:45 PM
Even Aizen's hair is better.


Lolwut? This is base Aizen, not Hogyoku Aizen. Shinji's hair is way cooler.

shuha27
April 02, 2011, 05:53 PM
It sucks that Shinji has to fight someone that he will obviously lose too. It was obvious that the match ups at the end were going to be Aizen and Yama :(

kkck
April 02, 2011, 07:01 PM
Does this thread even serve a purpose? Even if shinji were to go for the kill from the start he would fail as miserably as he failed in the manga. Shinji gets the fodder treatment 100 times out of 100. Not sure what the point of having aizen here is. Not a single person among the gotei 13, vizards, or espada except for yamamoto and a few other characters who were given some above average ambiguity to their power have a chance in hell(unfortunately urahara is not among them).

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 02, 2011, 07:12 PM
I like Shinji WAY more the Aizen.

Infact he is one of my top 5 favorite characers from Bleach.

But lets face it guys.

Aizen simply has the more haxed Shikai in this battle so i'd have to give this one to Aizen.


On a side note i'm pretty positive the final match in this tournament is going to be Aizen vs Yama which will surely be interesting lol.

EureKA
April 02, 2011, 07:13 PM
Shinji is smarter than most, aizen is the second smartest.
Shinji has some impressive secondary hollow skills, aizen is able to transform into a new breed of species.
Shinji is pretty strong, aizen is one of the strongest.
Shinji usually has a hax zan to help him edge his way past fights, aizen has a hax zan that lets him cakewalk.

The two are pretty similar, aizen just seems to be better in every category.

Exodi
April 02, 2011, 10:14 PM
Lolwut? This is base Aizen, not Hogyoku Aizen. Shinji's hair is way cooler.

I happen to think that Aizen, regardless of whatever form he's in, has really nice hair. Shinji's hair was much better when it was longer.


Since the winner of this fight is pretty obvious, this thread should just be about whose hair is better. I'll give the first vote for Aizen.

ninjabot
April 03, 2011, 03:27 AM
Giving it to Aizen by way of superior hax. I mean, KS's release hasn't been determined yet. All we really know is that it needs to be seen by the enemy. And just like Shinji said about his people relying on their senses in battle being a hinderance, it is here too, because he'll be watching carefully, trying his best to pick up on what the enemy's ability is.

Aizen will be doing the same aswell, but it takes longer for smell to reach someone (based on distance and wind and stuff), than a sight does.

cloudo
April 03, 2011, 04:51 AM
I always thought Shinji was overrated. Sakanade is cool, but it's an optical trick. Once you commit yourself to fight and react in a reverted manner like a mirrored image, it shouldn't be the hardest thing to counter. I believe Shinji has more up his sleeve than his Shikai, but this is KS- it's stupid to think he won't use it, because he will- and once that happens, Aizen is the victor, unless your name starts with Y and ends with AMA ;)

Truu
April 03, 2011, 06:20 AM
Aizen wipes the floor up with him with ease. End of story.

Where is my obvious and boring Yama vs Aizen match-up?

Katz
April 03, 2011, 07:02 AM
Aizen wipes the floor up with him with ease. End of story.

Where is my obvious and boring Yama vs Aizen match-up?

^that, lets just end the voting for this one prematurely and get to the two people who we all knew we're gonna end up in the final battle.....Old man yama and Aizen (thats gonna be a interesting debate for both sides)

(off-topic note: Another bleach tournement should totally be hosted next year, with all the fullbringer stuff going on, it might make for some interesting matchups + who knows by then we might have got to see the Royal guard I.E squad Zero in action)

Hanihime
April 03, 2011, 09:58 AM
Really?

Aizen wins. It's canon http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/kruemelmonsteryn0.gif

AlB
April 03, 2011, 12:34 PM
Since the winner of this fight is pretty obvious, this thread should just be about whose hair is better. I'll give the first vote for Aizen.

Nah, I liked his hair when he was Nerdy 5th Division Captain :darn

Let's see:
Color: Shinji - Blonde, Aizen - Brunette: tie
Back: Shinji - Short, Aizen - medium: Aizen
Front: Shinji - medium, Aizen - short + bitch curve: Shinji
1-1 dude. :tem

LucyBenard
April 03, 2011, 01:12 PM
No he didn't. That wound literally disappeared. And not 10 chapters later like you said, the very next time we see Aizen's shoulder, in the very next chapter or two it's gone. You can argue it was an art fail, but I'll just say it wasn't. Moreover, even if he did land that hit, who's the say Aizen didn't use KS before Shinji rushed him the second time? Obviously it's impossible to tell, just like when he cut down Shinji and the three others later on. With Aizen you never know, which is why to say Sakanade can definitely be countered when the possibility that KS was used is very goddamn real is dumb.

Even moreover, their fight never finished; let's say Aizen did magically become adjusted to fighting with everything backwards in 10 goddamn seconds and was still quicker than Shinji. Hello, mask? Hello, the fact that he can start switching up which directions he has reversed? So the next time Aizen comes in expecting everything backwards it turns out only left/right is and he gets cut. etc. etc.

Yeah, Aizen's not beating Shinji sealed that's for damn sure. Shikai is a bloody given; he beats everyone with his shikai.

Aizen already demonstrated the ability to quickly deduce Shinji's "Child Play" shikai ability and the skills to counter it. The rest of your post is just speculation and a poor attempt at Appeal to Ignorance (An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.)

As for KS, Aizen only used it twice in FKK: Hinamori illusion, and against Halibel. Anything else is you making up facts, as simple as that, also known as baseless speculation.



That wound literally disappeared. And not 10 chapters later like you said, the very next time we see Aizen's shoulder.

You like making up facts, don't you? :amuse

The very next time we see Aizen's shoulder the cut is still there:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ihm35i.png

As for the artist's lack of insignificant details; here is another example:

Shinji's wound a few chapters later (only a few minutes later in real time):

http://i53.tinypic.com/m9njwm.png

If we follow the obsolete logic of your argument, it would be something like this:

oooooo-LOL-NOOoooooo-Shinji-used KS, or why would he have been magically healed later on?

As I said, you can conjecture whatever fantasies you wish, but all manga facts are against you.


Aizen wins this one sealed.

CeroOskuraz
April 03, 2011, 02:37 PM
The fact is, Shinji was one-shotted along with three other people before he could even react to Aizen not just one-shotting him, but three other people as well.

That's insane. To suggest that KS was used as anything other than a catalyst for angering Hitsugaya is fallacious as the effects of Kyoka Suigetsu evaporate when the story shifts to Ichigo's point of view.

Aizen wins sealed with insane ease.

LucyBenard
April 03, 2011, 04:51 PM
To suggest that KS was used as anything other than a catalyst for angering Hitsugaya is fallacious as the effects of Kyoka Suigetsu evaporate when the story shifts to Ichigo's point of view.


Indeed. KS was not used in FKK except for two instances: Halibel/Hinamori. Anything else is just opinions.

kkck
April 03, 2011, 05:31 PM
It basically comes down to two things

1.- Shinji is inferior to aizen in terms of reiatsu, skills, speed, strength or stamina.
2.- Shinji's ability is by far inferior to aizen's own and has already proven to be useless against him.

Shinji has nothing on aizen at all. He has no viable weapons or options here. Heck, if teaming up with four people gave him no viable options to win then there is no reasonable excuse for him to have an honest chance alone. Aizen is a class above captain class.

decadoh
April 03, 2011, 10:01 PM
Indeed. KS was not used in FKK except for two instances: Halibel/Hinamori. Anything else is just opinions.

maybe off topic: i agree that aizen used KS for the hinamori switch (lol/troll). but aizen had KS activated the whole time. you would agree with me no? but only in that particular instance, where he was about to be stabbed by hitsu did he made use of the already activated KS (w/c i think was in standby mode the whole time) since he said that it only takes a single witnessing of KS's release (ritual) and then the person who witnessed it will be under complete hypnosis. im under the impression that whenever aizen wants you to see a new illusion, there is no more need for you to see him release again. right?

plus the fact that ichigo was right there the whole time. there is a small window of opportunity where aizen have switched places with hinaEMOri. that's after aizen was cut by shunshui after hitsu iced one of his arms. right? then that means, aizen was just that freaking fast to have switched places with the idiot vc.

regardless of how much i make sense of that battle, even if the explanation i provided above seemed plausible (for me at the very least), that was still a kubo ass-pull for me.

anyway.

ridiculously clever.if aizen managed to deduce sakanade's reverse world, he's ridiculously clever. really. well, seeing as kubo didnt provide a different explanation as to how aizen defeated shinji in that particular fight, i guess ill just go along.

but that doesnt make me change my mind as to how much BS Kubo made in some/most of the details in his arrancar and FKT arc. grrr.

someone offered an explanation here in MH that after the first strike of shinji, aizen may have used KS. since Shinji need not see the release again because he had been KS's effects already, an illusion that shinji might be fighting a fake aizen is plausible. i would like to believe that seriously. but so far, if manga situations are to be considered, this hadn't been the case. but i would really love this is so. gaah.damn you kubo. lol

maybe aizen is really that much powerful. plus a hax SHIKAI. shinji is my fave. i just dont know how to defend him against aizen. cant find any suitable case to support him :( so yeah, i just have to conceed. if it were only true that aizen used KS in his one-on-one with shinji, then accepting shinji's defeat wouldn't have been that difficult.

sorry long post. i just had to say this about aizen and the entire FKT arc mess.

edit: i think anyone can deduce sakanade's ability. the difference is how good you are in adjusting to its effects. and if aizen, REALLY, SERIOUSLY, got out of that trouble w/out KS (meaning he was able to excellently adjust to sakanade during mid-battle) then he must really be that good. i dont want to believe it. but as i said above, i just had to concede to this.

and oh, aizen is bleach's genjutsu master :P

LucyBenard
April 03, 2011, 11:29 PM
@decadoh Well said. It is hard to accept what you do not like, but the manga evidence is what we have to go on here. If Aizen had used KS in his fight against Shinji, the author would have mentioned it/shown it as it has been always the case for any other illusion.

If it did not happen, then there is no evidence to support it. Alleging that Aizen "may" have used KS because you do not like it otherwise, is um, wishful thinking: believing something because of a desire—"wish"—that it be true. No evidence to support it.

ShootToKill
April 03, 2011, 11:40 PM
Considering Aizen's personality and the fact that he did actually have everyone with the exception of Ichigo under hypnosis by KS, it's not quite "wishful thinking" to believe that he would have used it on more occasions than those which were explicitly shown. KS was his safeguard, he was capable of using it any time he wanted to, and I don't believe that he would have just let all those Captains attack him at once without activating KS, if only as a fallback in case they proved to be stronger than he had anticipated.

LucyBenard
April 03, 2011, 11:49 PM
Considering Aizen's personality and the fact that he did actually have everyone with the exception of Ichigo under hypnosis by KS, it's not quite "wishful thinking" to believe that he would have used it on more occasions than those which were explicitly shown. KS was his safeguard, he was capable of using it any time he wanted to, and I don't believe that he would have just let all those Captains attack him at once without activating KS, if only as a fallback in case they proved to be stronger than he had anticipated.

What do you call it then? Mere speculation? :)

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 12:00 AM
What do you call it then? Mere speculation? :)
I call it a reasonable assumption - the fact is, you can't prove that he didn't use KS either, and it makes quite a bit more sense that he did. You seem to apply quite a bit of bias to your arguments - "Yama is right until proven wrong" but "Aizen hasn't used KS until he has been proven to do so", where Yama is talking to his favorite pupils and comparing them with people who he hasn't seen for 100 years, and KS is Aizen's primary defense against an onslaught from half the Captains in the Gotei 13. Do you really think that someone as calculating as Aizen would forego using the ability which rendered himself practically invincible, even if he believed himself stronger than the rest of SS? What reason would he have to NOT use KS?

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:08 AM
I call it a reasonable assumption - the fact is, you can't prove that he didn't use KS either, and it makes quite a bit more sense that he did. You seem to apply quite a bit of bias to your arguments - "Yama is right until proven wrong" but "Aizen hasn't used KS until he has been proven to do so", where Yama is talking to his favorite pupils and comparing them with people who he hasn't seen for 100 years, and KS is Aizen's primary defense against an onslaught from half the Captains in the Gotei 13. Do you really think that someone as calculating as Aizen would forego using the ability which rendered himself practically invincible, even if he believed himself stronger than the rest of SS? What reason would he have to NOT use KS?

So you're relying on Appeal to Ignorance? (Arguing against my proposition (that Aizen did not use KS) on the assumption that there is lack of evidence on my part). Well, think again:

Aizen says, after cutting Shinji (Cnet128 Translation): One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless. // No better than a child's game. / Hirako Shinji.

Aizen simply adapted to Shinji's meaningless ability by adjusting his visual/reflex senses. That pretty much refutes the notion that he had to rely on KS, in addition to the manga not explicitly or implicitly showing any signs of KS in action.

As I said, nothing but wishful thinking. Notice how Aizen did not mention anything about tricking his opponent's senses, but simply referred to himself adapting to the situation. KS myth debunked.

Not only that, but the "One has simply to adapt" hold another implicit point: anyone else can adapt to it, having the mental visual/reflex coordination required.

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 12:18 AM
Didn't ever say that Aizen needed KS to overcome Shinji's ability :) I still believe that he was using KS in their fight - not to figure Shinji's ability out, but to have an easy time attacking Shinji and taking him down after he worked Sakanade out. Shinji looked damn surprised after being hit, although I guess you'll just say that Aizen is SO much faster than Shinji that he blitzed him, hence the surprise.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:32 AM
Didn't ever say that Aizen needed KS to overcome Shinji's ability :) I still believe that he was using KS in their fight - not to figure Shinji's ability out, but to have an easy time attacking Shinji and taking him down after he worked Sakanade out. Shinji looked damn surprised after being hit, although I guess you'll just say that Aizen is SO much faster than Shinji that he blitzed him, hence the surprise.

The reason why Shinji looked "pretty damn surprised" is simply because:

Shinji: Up, down, left, right, back, front, the directions the damage is comin' from... / Do you really think you can wrap your head around fightin' with them all flipped around? // Not a chance. // Ain't no-one can do that. // The stronger a guy is... // ...the more used to battle he gets...

The foolish Shinji thought that it was impossible for anyone to counter his child's play shikai ability. It is only understandable that he'd be in quite a shock after witnessing Aizen make a fool out of himself yet again.

Your theory has too many short comings:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.

El Samurai Guapo
April 04, 2011, 12:34 AM
Aizen already demonstrated the ability to quickly deduce Shinji's "Child Play" shikai ability and the skills to counter it. The rest of your post is just speculation and a poor attempt at Appeal to Ignorance (An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.)

There it evidence. Wound dissappearing and Aizen adapting to fighting with everything inverted instantaneously when it should be impossible for someone as skilled as him to undo decades if not centuries worth of training reflexes to respond a certain way (muscle memory). You're the one appearling to ignorance here since there's less reason to assume KS wasn't used.





You like making up facts, don't you? :amuse

The very next time we see Aizen's shoulder the cut is still there:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ihm35i.png


Uhh, that was nice how you cut out the part of my quote that said "...in the next chapter or two." Look's like you're gonna make me do the work and pull up the scans.

Very next time we get a really clear look at Aizen's right arm is chapter 390, only 3 chapters after his bout with Shinji, we can see the wound— including the blood left on his clothes—is completely gone.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-403-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-403-page-5.html


As for the artist's lack of insignificant details; here is another example:

Shinji's wound a few chapters later (only a few minutes later in real time):

http://i53.tinypic.com/m9njwm.png

Okay, using your Shinji example, Kubo may have forgotten to draw in an a couple of instances, but he didn't totally forget about it. We see the wound on Shinji's head more often than not, in fact Kubo even remembers to put in that "insignificant detail" all the way at the end of the war

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-435-page-4.html

Now unlike in Shinji's case, Aizen's wound outright disappears and never returns at all. What does that tell me the author is trying to convey? That the cut never actually happened.



If we follow the obsolete logic of your argument, it would be something like this:

oooooo-LOL-NOOoooooo-Shinji-used KS, or why would he have been magically healed later on?

As I said, you can conjecture whatever fantasies you wish, but all manga facts are against you.


Uhh, it's actually quite the freakin' opposite. The canon is on my side; fact is the wound disappeared. You're trying to argue it was an art fail, but I disagree, there was enough consitency there (unlike the case with Shinji) to say it wasn't. You're the one speculating; prove to me Kubo leaving the wound out was unintentional. Good luck with that!

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:36 AM
There it evidence. Wound dissappearing and Aizen adapting to fighting with everything inverted instantaneously when it should be impossible for someone as skilled as him to undo decades if not centuries worth of training reflexes to respond a certain way (muscle memory). You're the one appearling to ignorance here since there's less reason to assume KS wasn't used.

As for KS, Aizen only used it twice in FKK: Hinamori illusion, and against Halibel. Anything else is you making up facts, as simple as that, also known as baseless speculation.

Uhh, that was nice how you cut out the part of my quote that said "...in the next chapter or two." Look's like you're gonna make me do the work and pull up the scans.

Very next time we get a really clear look at Aizen's right arm is chapter 390, only 3 chapters after his bout with Shinji, we can see the wound— including the blood left on his clothes—is completely gone.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-403-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-403-page-5.html

As for the artist's lack of insignificant details; here is another example:



Okay, using your Shinji example, Kubo may have forgotten to draw in an a couple of instances, but he didn't totally forget about it. We see the wound on Shinji's head more often than not, in fact Kubo even remembers to put in that "insignificant detail" at the end of the war

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-435-page-4.html

Now unlike in Shinji's case, Aizen's wound outright dissappears and never returns at all. What does that tell me the author is trying to convey? That the cut never actually happened.




Uhh, it's actually quite the freakin' opposite. The canon is on my side; fact is the wound disappeared. You're trying to argue it was an art fail, but I disagree, there was enough consitency there (unlike the case with Shinji) to say it wasn't. You're the one speculating; prove to me Kubo leaving the wound out was unintentional. Good luck with that!

Already debunked. Read my previous post. Aizen states that anyone simply has to adapt to counter Shinji's weak ability.

As for whose side the manga/facts are on, very hard to tell/sarcasm:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.

El Samurai Guapo
April 04, 2011, 12:43 AM
Already debunked. Read my previous post. Aizen states that anyone simply has to adapt to counter Shinji's weak ability.

Wtf? That's not proof of your art fail claim.

Hint: Short of a interview with Kubo himself or a Tankobon release making changes in the drawings, you can't.

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 12:44 AM
The reason why Shinji looked "pretty damn surprised" is simply because:

Shinji: Up, down, left, right, back, front, the directions the damage is comin' from... / Do you really think you can wrap your head around fightin' with them all flipped around? // Not a chance. // Ain't no-one can do that. // The stronger a guy is... // ...the more used to battle he gets...

The foolish Shinji thought that it was impossible for anyone to counter his child's play shikai ability. It is only understandable that he'd be in quite a shock after witnessing Aizen make a fool out of himself yet again.

Your theory has too many short comings:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exlusive hack abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
Once again, I didn't say Aizen required KS to overcome Shinji's ability, I am claiming that he used KS while fighting Shinji in order to gain an easy opening once he had figured out Sakanade. He was shown to have used KS on Harribel, so why not on others? I don't believe Aizen considered Harribel the greatest threat / most likely to attack him, so it makes sense that he would have anyone who presented a greater or equal threat than Harribel under hypnosis.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 12:47 AM
Aizen used KS here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html) during his fight with Shinji, hence why he makes mention of its ability to control the 5 senses then mocks Shinji's in comparison

El Samurai Guapo
April 04, 2011, 12:49 AM
Once again, I didn't say Aizen required KS to overcome Shinji's ability, I am claiming that he used KS while fighting Shinji in order to gain an easy opening once he had figured out Sakanade. He was shown to have used KS on Harribel, so why not on others? I don't believe Aizen considered Harribel the greatest threat / most likely to attack him, so it makes sense that he would have anyone of a greater or equal threat than Harribel under hypnosis.

Especially when he's got no idea what this dude if front of him's zanpakutou does and he outright tells him it can control the senses like his zanpakutou. It would be incredibly retarded of Aizen to NOT be using KS in such a situation. And considering how cautious the guy was...

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:54 AM
Aizen used KS here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html) during his fight with Shinji, hence why he makes mention of its ability to control the 5 senses then mocks Shinji's in comparison

Out of context/false interpretation.


Shinji: The more naturally his body reacts... // ...to exactly what it sees!!
Aizen: Dear me. // So in the end, it was nothing... // ...but an optical illusion.

Aizen: A far stretch from my own ability... // ...to control the five senses absolutely. // One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless. // No better than a child's game. / Hirako Shinji.

Aizen was simply degrading Shinji's ability as nothing more than child's play as KS is simply in a league of its own.
[hr]

Once again, I didn't say Aizen required KS to overcome Shinji's ability, I am claiming that he used KS while fighting Shinji in order to gain an easy opening once he had figured out Sakanade. He was shown to have used KS on Harribel, so why not on others? I don't believe Aizen considered Harribel the greatest threat / most likely to attack him, so it makes sense that he would have anyone who presented a greater or equal threat than Harribel under hypnosis.

Hint: shown. If the manga implicitly states that it was used or outright explicitly shows said illusion, then it has happened. Otherwise, it is nothing but a myth. Feel free to believe in it though, however, it is not a manga fact.
[hr]

Especially when he's got no idea what this dude if front of him's zanpakutou does and he outright tells him it can control the senses like his zanpakutou. It would be incredibly retarded of Aizen to NOT be using KS in such a situation. And considering how cautious the guy was...

Aizen already stated that he hadn't used KS:

Aizen: One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless. // No better than a child's game. / Hirako Shinji.

No KS. Myth debunked :amuse.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 12:54 AM
The translation used doesn't change the focus of the statement, which was that he compared Shinji's ability to his own after he countered.

His entire FKT feats were placed in doubt by his own statement (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html), because of that, the burden of proof is not on the one's saying he did use Kyoka Suigetsu in these situations, but those saying he didn't

Thus, given implications from his Shinji fight, everything points toward him definitely using it. Unless you can prove otherwise?

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:58 AM
The translation used doesn't change the focus of the statement, which was that he compared Shinji's ability to his own after he countered.

His entire FKT feats were placed in doubt by his own statement (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html), because of that, the burden of proof is not on the one's saying he did use Kyoka Suigetsu in these situations, but those saying he didn't

Thus, given implications from his Shinji fight, everything points toward him definitely using it. Unless you can prove otherwise?

Comparing his ability to Shinji's means not that Aizen had used his. What are you smoking, seriously? :eyeroll

Not to mention, Aizen goes on and states that anyone could counter Shinji's weak ability by adapting to it, much like he did, thus excluding any hax abilities that may be character exclusive such as KS.

Let me put that into perspective: If Aizen had used KS, he wouldn't go one and generalize his statement of "being able to adapt to Shinji's shikai" to anyone and everyone.

Also, all the manga facts are against you:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 01:00 AM
Comparing his ability to Shinji's means not that Aizen had used his. What are you smoking, seriously? :eyeroll

Not to mention, Aizen goes on and states that anyone could counter Shinji's weak ability by adapting to it, much like he did, thus excluding any hax abilities that may be character exclusive such as KS.
So because he said he didn't need KS to overcome Shinji's inverted world, that is proof that he didn't use KS? A fallacious argument if ever I heard one.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 01:00 AM
Comparing his ability to Shinji's means not that Aizen had used his. What are you smoking, seriously? :eyeroll

Not to mention, Aizen goes on and states that anyone could counter Shinji's weak ability by adapting to it, much like he did, thus excluding any hax abilities that may be character exclusive such as KS.

This is irrelevant. As I've stated, you're gonna have to provide proof that he didn't use KS, because Aizen's own statement casts doubt that there ever was a moment he wasn't using it.

You're also failing to grasp simple implications. Aizen speaking of his own ability after countering Shinji's and then calling it childs play in comparison lends to the idea that he used his own ability to counter Shinji's, added to the fact Aizen refuted any notion that he wasn't using KS the entire time, its perfectly valid to assume he did during his fight with Shinji

Provide evidence that he didn't

El Samurai Guapo
April 04, 2011, 01:03 AM
And while you're at it, provide evidence that Kubo failing to later depict the arm-wound was an unintentional mistake.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:05 AM
So because he said he didn't need KS to overcome Shinji's inverted world, that is proof that he didn't use KS? A fallacious argument if ever I heard one.

That is where you are wrong. Aizen states that ANYONE can adapt to Shinji's inverted world and thus counter it. He did not limit it to himself, thus, that automatically takes KS out of the picture, since if KS was the only way by which Aizen had encountered Shinji's ability, then such a feat would only be exclusive to him.
[hr]

This is irrelevant. As I've stated, you're gonna have to provide proof that he didn't use KS, because Aizen's own statement casts doubt that there ever was a moment he wasn't using it.

You're also failing to grasp simple implications. Aizen speaking of his own ability after countering Shinji's and then calling it childs play in comparison lends to the idea that he used his own ability to counter Shinji's, added to the fact Aizen refuted any notion that he wasn't using KS the entire time, its perfectly valid to assume he did during his fight with Shinji

Provide evidence that he didn't

The burden of the proof is on you :amuse

However, I've already debunked your simpleton theory:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.

(1) by itself is more than enough.

Also, regarding your "hoax" claim that Aizen had first used KS and then compared it, that is simply false:

Manga states: Dear me. // So in the end, it was nothing... // ...but an optical illusion. A far stretch from my own ability...

Aizen simply compares it to his. No application of KS was invoked (manga fact).

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 01:09 AM
The burden of the proof is on you :amuse

Apparently you don't have proof, seeing as you're trying to shift the burden of it to the wrong party. Thanks for trying.


However, I've already debunked your simpleton theory:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga

False. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html) Aizen already refuted the idea that he wasn't using KS

This is also an argument from ignorance. Try again


2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.

Him describing Shinji's ability does not negate the possibility of him using KS to counter it. What're you smoking? :blink


3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.

Doesn't at all refute the idea that he used KS here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html). which is after he'd been cut originally, in other words, completely debunking whatever you thought you proved

Thanks for trying Lucy. Burden of Proof however is on you to prove he didn't use KS despite Aizen himself debunking that idea

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 01:10 AM
Buzz has it exactly right. Neither side has proof, yet we have many more implications that he was using KS than you do that he was not.

Your strongest argument seems to be "he said it was childs play, therefore he didn't need KS" - this just means that he was capable of working out the spatial inversions, not that he was capable of reacting in time to Shinji's attacks without resorting to KS. As mentioned above, it has been implied that he used it the whole time.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:15 AM
Apparently you don't have proof, seeing as you're trying to shift the burden of it to the wrong party. Thanks for trying.



False. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html) Aizen already refuted the idea that he wasn't using KS

This is also an argument from ignorance. Try again



Him describing Shinji's ability does not negate the possibility of him using KS to counter it. What're you smoking? :blink



Doesn't at all refute the idea that he used KS here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html). which is after he'd been cut originally, in other words, completely debunking whatever you thought you proved

Thanks for trying Lucy. Burden of Proof however is on you to prove he didn't use KS despite Aizen himself debunking that idea

LOL. This is just pure denial. Are you ignoring the panels on the bottom of the page where Aizen was going up against Shunsui/Hitsugaya?

If anything, you simply debunked your own theory by suggesting that KS was invoked after that instance, which was AFTER Shinji had fought Aizen.

Thanks, you debunked your own myth. :amuse

Not to mention, you are simply outright ignoring the fact that Aizen said about only "adapting himself" to overcome the inverted world.

Selective ignorance.
[hr]

Buzz has it exactly right. Neither side has proof, yet we have many more implications that he was using KS than you do that he was not.

Your strongest argument seems to be "he said it was childs play, therefore he didn't need KS" - this just means that he was capable of working out the spatial inversions, not that he was capable of reacting in time to Shinji's attacks without resorting to KS. As mentioned above, it has been implied that he used it the whole time.

:fail

Aizen:One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless

Are you also intentionally ignoring the bolded line above? It is one thing to question the story, and another to totally outright deny it :amuse.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:18 AM
Apparently LucyBenard can't read or comprehend very well. Re-read my post, respond to it correctly, otherwise don't quote me as if you're responding at all =/

All the manga evidence is against you:

1) Aizen stated that he had not used KS against Shinji since he said that all one has to do was to adapt
2) No illusion was implicitly/explicitly shown in the manga
3) Your other panel implies that Aizen activated KS later on when he was going up against Hitsugaya.

Nothing backs up your argument, except wishful thinking.

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 01:22 AM
:fail

Aizen:One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless

Are you also intentionally ignoring the bolded line above? It is one thing to question the story, and another to totally outright deny it :amuse.
"One has simply to adapt" - implying that he was able to work out how to counter the spatial inversions caused by Sakanade, NOT that he was able to fight Shinji effectively this way without resorting to KS.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 01:23 AM
All the manga evidence is against you

Fail. Burden of Proof is on you kid (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html). Start providing conflicting evidence ;)


1) Aizen stated that he had not used KS against Shinji since he said that all one has to do was to adapt

Show me the panel where he says the bolded. Now. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html)


2) No illusion was implicitly/explicitly shown in the manga

Once again (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html). Argument from Ignorance as well, didn't you just try to sound smart and point this out on someone else's post? Lol


3) Your other panel implies that Aizen activated KS later on when he was going up against Hitsugaya.

No it doesn't. It simply says when did you think he wasn't using it. If you knew anything about the manga you're discussing, you'd know that the particular instant that was flashbacked was referencing when Hitsu said he was surprised Aizen wasn't using it

Doesn't at all imply that's when he activated it


Nothing backs up your argument, except wishful thinking.

Panels kid. Panels ;)

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:25 AM
"One has simply to adapt" - implying that he was able to work out how to counter the spatial inversions caused by Sakanade, NOT that he was able to fight Shinji effectively this way without resorting to KS.

Read on: One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless.

His ability is meaningless, as in, you can overcome it completely.
[hr]

Fail. Burden of Proof is on you kid (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html). Start providing conflicting evidence ;)



Show me the panel where he says the bolded. Now. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html)



Once again (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html). Argument from Ignorance as well, didn't you just try to sound smart and point this out on someone else's post? Lol



No it doesn't. It simply says when did you think he wasn't using it. If you knew anything about the manga you're discussing, you'd know that the particular instant that was flashbacked was referencing when Hitsu said he was surprised Aizen wasn't using it

Doesn't at all imply that's when he activated it



Panels kid. Panels ;)

I guess you need to take a deep breath, calm down, and re-read all of my posts above and in the previous page. Your argument is simply a joke.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 01:27 AM
Hence the reason you're failing to prove anything, because my arguments based from canon evidence are a joke?

Yeah. Right

Post the panel I asked for. Now :)

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:28 AM
Hence the reason you're failing to prove anything, because my arguments based from canon evidence are a joke?

Yeah. Right

Post the panel I asked for. Now :)

What a fail attempt at saving face. You probably already realize that you have no proof whatsoever to back up your wishful thinking. Otherwise, state now where it was shown in the manga that Aizen had used KS against Shinji. I'll be waiting :)

Re-read the manga.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 01:31 AM
Concession Accepted. I've provided evidence of everything I've posted. You made shit up off the top of the dome and committed numerous fallacies in the process. Culminating in this;


1) Aizen stated that he had not used KS against Shinji since he said that all one has to do was to adapt

Which only proves that you're fabricating nonsense just to stay afloat in a losing argument.

Now last chance. Show me the panel where he says that. :)

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 01:31 AM
Read on: One has simply to adapt, and your ability is meaningless.

His ability is meaningless, as in, you can overcome it completely.
<hr noshade size="1">
You're reading too much into a comment made to denegrate Shinji's ability, to make him look foolish. Nowhere does this imply that Aizen did not use KS, he is simply stating that he was capable of working out Shinji's ability, and it pales in comparison to his own hypnosis, which one cannot overcome by "adapting" to it.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:34 AM
Concession Accepted. I've provided evidence of everything I've posted. You made shit up off the top of the dome and committed numerous fallacies in the process. Culminating in this;



Which only proves that you're fabricating nonsense just to stay afloat in a losing argument.

Now last chance. Show me the panel where he says that. :)

For a second there I thought you were talking about me ;)

The only one who had provided evidence is me, all you did was pull out a random manga page that debunked your own false theory. I laughed out loud. Hint: take a look at the bottom of that page. :amuse

You've been debunked thoroughly yet again.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:38 AM
You're reading too much into a comment made to denegrate Shinji's ability, to make him look foolish. Nowhere does this imply that Aizen did not use KS, he is simply stating that he was capable of working out Shinji's ability, and it pales in comparison to his own hypnosis, which one cannot overcome by "adapting" to it.

That's a fact. Your theory is nothing but a fabricated myth.

Think of it this way: Aizen's KS can only be used when he is released. Thus by default, Aizen does not use KS. Hence, for you to allege that he had indeed used KS, the burden of the proof is on you.

Hence, you lose, since there is no proof. Thus, Aizen had not used KS. That's another way of looking at it. I've already thoroughly debunked your myths though.
[hr]

Yeah. Thanks for playing LucyBenard.

Next time you wanna make a fool of yourself again, lure me into another debate ;)

As for the topic, Aizen wins

Thanks for the laughs though ;) I love it when someone unintentionally debunks their own claim: proving that they have no idea of what they're talking about. :eyeroll

xXan
April 04, 2011, 01:46 AM
Personaly i belive Aizen was not using KS at that instance:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html

All those words would be meaningless if he was... When KS is used Kubo usually makes it perfecly clear that it was used there.

I belive Kubo just wants us to see how OP Aizen is (even enforced later by Gin, the OP part). Hell he was able to overcomes and stop Soifon's "magic" so why not this to? Of course people can state all his feats where because of KS, some people belive KS even made Aizen somehow cut trough Koma's bankai (i remember some people state Aizen cut some 100 times and made it look like 1 lol).

Just my 2 cents.

As for the fight ... Aizen stomps.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:59 AM
Personaly i belive Aizen was not using KS at that instance:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html


Indeed. Since KS is such a hax, broken, and confusing ability to the readers, the simple rule of thumb is:

KS is only used in the instances where Kubo shows it in the manga. Otherwise, anything and everything can be interpreted as KS. As many have fallen to do so here (labeling anything that Aizen had done as KS influenced).

Takahashi
April 04, 2011, 02:45 AM
Indeed. Since KS is such a hax, broken, and confusing ability to the readers, the simple rule of thumb is:

KS is only used in the instances where Kubo shows it in the manga. Otherwise, anything and everything can be interpreted as KS. As many have fallen to do so here (labeling anything that Aizen had done as KS influenced).

Anything and everything can be interpreted differently, and not just KS situations. That's kind of the point of having these discussions, because everyone is going to see things differently. I personally think Aizen used KS multiple times, and I have my own reasons for that, but I understand why many don't think he did. At any rate, I don't think we should ever have a cut and dry mentally with his ability.

Buuut, without getting into that. I see no reason for anyone to say Shinji would win more than 50% of the fights. I could understand the logic behind Shinji winning SOME, but the majority? No way. That's a huge stretch.
[hr]

Of course people can state all his feats where because of KS, some people belive KS even made Aizen somehow cut trough Koma's bankai (i remember some people state Aizen cut some 100 times and made it look like 1 lol).

I never said that's what he did. I was just trying to give my reasoning for not taking KS at face value because Aizen COULD do that if he wanted to. If I had to bet on the KS and Koma thing, I'd imagine he cut Komamura himself, and the damage was reflected on KTM, not the other way around.

xXan
April 04, 2011, 02:51 AM
Anything and everything can be interpreted differently, and not just KS situations. That's kind of the point of having these discussions, because everyone is going to see things differently. I personally think Aizen used KS multiple times, and I have my own reasons for that, but I understand why many don't think he did. At any rate, I don't think we should ever have a cut and dry mentally with his ability.

Buuut, without getting into that. I see no reason for anyone to say Shinji would win more than 50% of the fights. I could understand the logic behind Shinji winning SOME, but the majority? No way. That's a huge stretch.
<hr noshade size="1">


I never said that's what he did. I was just trying to give my reasoning for not taking KS at face value because Aizen COULD do that if he wanted to. If I had to bet on the KS and Koma thing, I'd imagine he cut Komamura himself, and the damage was reflected on KTM, not the other way around.

I don't even remember who made that comment. Also there is no indication that the damage done to Koma would be done to the giant or at least i don't remember any instance when it happened. If you are just asuming it would happen ... Well that is another thing.

Takahashi
April 04, 2011, 02:58 AM
I don't even remember who made that comment. Also there is no indication that the damage done to Koma would be done to the giant or at least i don't remember any instance when it happened. If you are just asuming it would happen ... Well that is another thing.

I'm not saying anything definitive. Just that I do believe KS was used, and there's a myriad of things that could have been done because of it. Anyway, don't wanna get in the same argument that's in every Aizen topic....

AlB
April 04, 2011, 05:35 AM
Concession Accepted. I've provided evidence of everything I've posted. You made shit up off the top of the dome and committed numerous fallacies in the process. Culminating in this;



Which only proves that you're fabricating nonsense just to stay afloat in a losing argument.

Now last chance. Show me the panel where he says that. :)

I'm telling ya people! Lucybenard IS freshseth83's long lost brother or smth!!! :XD

Anyway, you are right: Aizen was heavily using KS-troll.
Even if he wasn't: This is Aizen, AIZEN. a guy who crushes bankais with a swing of his sword and stops blades barehanded. A guy who developed Hogyoku without having an entire science unit under his disposal. But noo... Shinji ("child's play"), Rose (caught the whip), Soifon (supressed ability - that was KS but anti-soifon movement just don't get this) and Komamura (Bankai sandwiched) are doomed to be called worthless for all eternity!

Back on topic: Aizen does win, but how easily?
Considering Shinji is not KSed at the beginning and he will be the first to release a zan I bet he can give Aizen a headache, no?

cracker
April 04, 2011, 08:52 AM
Hmmm...I always thought that it was Soifon and Aizen collided and he really did cancel her shikai ability with his spiritual pressure, if the Hinamori swap had already occurred wouldn't she have died?

And against Shinji, he's good...but to think he could counter so effectively with only processing the shikai's ability in his mind and acting accordingly without KS is ludicrous no matter how you spin it...then again it could be that Shinji's Sakanade is just that crappy ( i don't think so)

AlB
April 04, 2011, 09:24 AM
Hmmm...I always thought that it was Soifon and Aizen collided and he really did cancel her shikai ability with his spiritual pressure, if the Hinamori swap had already occurred wouldn't she have died?

And against Shinji, he's good...but to think he could counter so effectively with only processing the shikai's ability in his mind and acting accordingly without KS is ludicrous no matter how you spin it...then again it could be that Shinji's Sakanade is just that crappy ( i don't think so)

Well, you see. "Aizen" pierced by Soifon was already encased in Ice. That's what makes me think that Aizen invoked KS and swapped places with Momo, prior to being encased in Ice by Hitsu.

1. Aizen KS-troll begins: Momo is brought before captains
2. Hitsu's ice encases Momo
3. Soifon performs her two-shot tech on thin air before Momo
4. Shunsui impales Momo
5. Hitsu impales Momo

Not like this:
1. Hitsu encases Aizen
2. Aizen cancels Soifon's two-shot tech
3. Aizen swaps Momo despite the fact that Shunsui's attack occurs almost immediately after Soifon's: not simultaneously perhaps, but not leaving enough time for Aizen to get to the ground, pick up momo, put her in the way of the shadow. Aizen is fast for sure, but so is Shunsui.
4. Shunsui impales Momo
5. Hitsu impales Momo.

1st scenario makes much more sense no?

Random101
April 04, 2011, 09:54 AM
Hinamori didn't have Kyoraku's injury, the only injury on her was in fact the blade by Hitsugaya. This means either there was a period of time between the movement when straight up no one was there (Though if that were the case Kage Oni wouldn't have worked) or he missed too and Hinamori was there for a bit. Either way Ichigo's a goddamn useless moron that entire part and nothing can be said for sure. Considering the 'illusion' went so far as to have Aizen's thoughts literally nothing can be believed throughout that entire fight, which is why most feats there are invalid.

cracker
April 04, 2011, 10:06 AM
Well, you see. "Aizen" pierced by Soifon was already encased in Ice. That's what makes me think that Aizen invoked KS and swapped places with Momo, prior to being encased in Ice by Hitsu.

1. Aizen KS-troll begins: Momo is brought before captains
2. Hitsu's ice encases Momo
3. Soifon performs her two-shot tech on thin air before Momo
4. Shunsui impales Momo
5. Hitsu impales Momo

Not like this:
1. Hitsu encases Aizen
2. Aizen cancels Soifon's two-shot tech
3. Aizen swaps Momo despite the fact that Shunsui's attack occurs almost immediately after Soifon's: not simultaneously perhaps, but not leaving enough time for Aizen to get to the ground, pick up momo, put her in the way of the shadow. Aizen is fast for sure, but so is Shunsui.
4. Shunsui impales Momo
5. Hitsu impales Momo.

1st scenario makes much more sense no?

Hmmm...I had forgotten the sequence of events. I recollected that Soifon attack was unaided and had occurred prior to him being encased in ice...thats why I draw that conclusion. I just reread the chapter (391) and saw that you are indeed correct...

I gather then that it is feasible that the events could have indeed occurred like you said and also considering that Aizen was infused with the jewel makes you wonder if Soifon could have even kill him anyway, i doubt it...at full strength or otherwise

EDIT

@ random101

Aizen KS controls the sense... Ichigo did come across as pretty useless but for all we know he could have been screaming at them the entire time (not just at the end of it) and if Aizen so choose they wouldn't have heard a damn thing anyway...

Random101
April 04, 2011, 10:30 AM
Whether or not he was screaming is irrelevant. It's that he didn't do anything about it that stuns me. Either they were attacking thin air for a huge amount of time, or Hinamori was there that long. Either way, he did nothing about it.

Which granted is more forgivable in the former case, as the hell's he supposed to do about them attacking thin air? If Himamori was there the entire time however he's a goddamn moron.

En Yang Ji
April 04, 2011, 10:59 AM
Personaly i belive Aizen was not using KS at that instance:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html

All those words would be meaningless if he was... When KS is used Kubo usually makes it perfecly clear that it was used there.

I belive Kubo just wants us to see how OP Aizen is (even enforced later by Gin, the OP part). Hell he was able to overcomes and stop Soifon's "magic" so why not this to? Of course people can state all his feats where because of KS, some people belive KS even made Aizen somehow cut trough Koma's bankai (i remember some people state Aizen cut some 100 times and made it look like 1 lol).

Just my 2 cents.

As for the fight ... Aizen stomps.

- IMO Aizen did use KS. I noticed the shaded panel, where Shinji looked surprised. I can't remember what interview kubo talks about shaded panels, but their important and their meant to convey something in particular ( I can't remember what kubo said :()

- Another reason I don't believe that one could simply adapt to Shinji's shikai ability (by simply figuring out what it does) is how bad it would make Shinji and his shikai look. His shikai would be useless against strong opponents...but Shinji said his shikai was like a trump card.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 10:59 AM
Anything and everything can be interpreted differently, and not just KS situations. That's kind of the point of having these discussions, because everyone is going to see things differently. I personally think Aizen used KS multiple times, and I have my own reasons for that, but I understand why many don't think he did. At any rate, I don't think we should ever have a cut and dry mentally with his ability.


You're free to think whatever you wish, not manga-canon however. In the manga, the only illusions are the ones that have been shown, anything else is theory :)

Also, I like how people are speculating that Aizen must have used KS, however, Aizen states that he simply adapted to the situation, and suggests that anyone else can do the same.

Just keep that in mind ;)

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 11:15 AM
You're free to think whatever you wish, not manga-canon however. In the manga, the only illusions are the ones that have been shown, anything else is theory :)

Also, I like how people are speculating that Aizen must have used KS, however, Aizen states that he simply adapted to the situation, and suggests that anyone else can do the same.

Just keep that in mind ;)
Been addressed already - saying that he adapted can simply mean that he worked out how Sakanade works, not that he didn't need KS to actually gain the upper hand in the fight.

cracker
April 04, 2011, 11:15 AM
You're free to think whatever you wish, not manga-canon however. In the manga, the only illusions are the ones that have been shown, anything else is theory :)

Also, I like how people are speculating that Aizen must have used KS, however, Aizen states that he simply adapted to the situation, and suggests that anyone else can do the same.

Just keep that in mind ;)

So Shinji's shikai is a terrible trump card then lol

En Yang Ji
April 04, 2011, 11:17 AM
You're free to think whatever you wish, not manga-canon however. In the manga, the only illusions are the ones that have been shown, anything else is theory :)

Also, I like how people are speculating that Aizen must have used KS, however, Aizen states that he simply adapted to the situation, and suggests that anyone else can do the same.

Just keep that in mind ;)

How does Aizen statement imply anyone can adapt to it?

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 11:26 AM
Been addressed already - saying that he adapted can simply mean that he worked out how Sakanade works, not that he didn't need KS to actually gain the upper hand in the fight.

Nothing but your own interpretation. IMO, saying that he adapted means that he completely and unconditionally had overcome Sakanade (he already knew how it worked, but adapting to it: also being able to counter it)

Everyone can realize its ability (they'll be looking at an inverted world).
[hr]

How does Aizen statement imply anyone can adapt to it?

Aizen states "One simply has to adapt to it"

"One" in this case: a pronoun, functioning in an impersonal, objective manner, standing for the speaker and for all people who belong to a class (spiritual beings in this case).

En Yang Ji
April 04, 2011, 11:33 AM
Nothing but your own interpretation. IMO, saying that he adapted means that he completely and unconditionally had overcome Sakanade (he already knew how it worked, but adapting to it: also being able to counter it)

Everyone can realize its ability (they'll be looking at an inverted world).
<hr noshade size="1">


Aizen states "One simply has to adapt to it"

"One" in this case: a pronoun, functioning in an impersonal, objective manner, standing for the speaker and for all people who belong to a class (spiritual beings in this case).

He did say one has simply to adapt, but how does that imply anyone is capable adapt?

cracker
April 04, 2011, 11:35 AM
Nothing but your own interpretation. IMO, saying that he adapted means that he completely and unconditionally had overcome Sakanade (he already knew how it worked, but adapting to it: also being able to counter it)

Everyone can realize its ability (they'll be looking at an inverted world).
<hr noshade size="1">


Aizen states "One simply has to adapt to it"

"One" in this case: a pronoun, functioning in an impersonal, objective manner, standing for the speaker and for all people who belong to a class.

Hmmm...I wasn't exactly agreeing with you. I am of the notion that Shinji's shikai is pretty good and the ability it displayed can't simply be overcomed by working through it in your mind. Unless another scenario arises in which someone simply adapts to Sakanade and counters effectively, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that KS was used.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 11:39 AM
He did say one has simply to adapt, but how does that imply anyone can adapt?

It simply opens up the idea that anyone can adapt. Now whether they are able to or not, solely depends on their mental/visual coordination.

The point here is: generalizing the statement means that no hax abilities that are exclusive to someone and not the other are considered.
[hr]

Hmmm...I wasn't exactly agreeing with you. I am of the notion that Shinji's shikai is pretty good and the ability it displayed can't simply be overcomed by working through it in your mind. Unless another scenario arises in which someone simply adapts to Sakanade and counters effectively, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that KS was used.

Out of sheer refusal to accept that Aizen had already overcome it in the manga by simply adapting to it (No mention of KS). :eyeroll Not only that, but Aizen proceeds to say that anyone can also adapt, thus completely taking KS out of the equation
Denial level: over 9000!

cracker
April 04, 2011, 11:47 AM
It simply opens up the idea that anyone can adapt. Now whether they are able to or not, solely depends on their mental/visual coordination.

The point here is: generalizing the statement means that no hax abilities that are exclusive to someone and not the other are considered.
<hr noshade size="1">


Out of sheer refusal to accept that Aizen had already overcome it in the manga by simply adapting to it (No mention of KS). :eyeroll
Denial level: over 9000!

Lol

There isn't enough proof to cast reasonable doubt...I think you're who's in denial.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 11:49 AM
Lol

There isn't enough proof to cast reasonable doubt...I think you're who's in denial.

All manga evidence is against such a notion:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga. Every illusion before/after it was SHOWN.
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 11:53 AM
I've already destroyed LucyBenards case the other day http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

Aizen used KS against Shinji, all evidence points to it and there's no evidence against it.

Anyway, Sakanade will be a pain in a real fight, but it's possible others can fight within it, maybe not perfectly every time, but at least a few times considering they don't get killed before then

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 11:54 AM
I've already destroyed Buzz Killington's case the other day

Aizen did not use KS against Shinji, all evidence points to it and there's no evidence against it.

:eyeroll

exacta
April 04, 2011, 12:06 PM
This battle technically already happened, since Aizen didn't know Shinji's ability and found out about it and figured a way around it rather quickly when they actually fought in the manga/anime. In the anime, Aizen said he used KS to adjust Shinji's senses a little. But in the manga, Aizen just said it was child's play as if he figured it out.


I don't know which one were going with, but even if we did go with the anime and it was just because of KS, it would be so easy for Aizen to put Shinji under KS. All he would have to do is draw his sword in front of Shinji and say the release.

The only thing that makes it possible for Shinji to win is the fact that he never used his Hollow Mask against Aizen. However, as much of a boost as it would give Shinji, it would make no difference if he gets KS'd.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:08 PM
This battle technically already happened, since Aizen didn't know Shinji's ability and found out about it and figured a way around it rather quickly when they actually fought in the manga/anime. In the anime, Aizen said he used KS to adjust Shinji's senses a little. But in the manga, Aizen just said it was child's play as if he figured it out.


I don't know which one were going with, but even if we did go with the anime and it was just because of KS, it would be so easy for Aizen to put Shinji under KS. All he would have to do is draw his sword in front of Shinji and say the release.

The only thing that makes it possible for Shinji to win is the fact that he never used his Hollow Mask against Aizen. However, as much of a boost as it would give Shinji, it would make no difference if he gets KS'd.

Anime is non-canon. If the manga and anime contradict each other, then the manga is the one to go by.

exacta
April 04, 2011, 12:09 PM
I've already destroyed LucyBenards case the other day http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

Aizen used KS against Shinji, all evidence points to it and there's no evidence against it.


In the manga, the fact that Aizen never stated he used KS like he did in the anime kinda constitutes for evidence against Aizen using it. And I assume anime is not going to be considered canon in this tourney. Just sayin.

cracker
April 04, 2011, 12:21 PM
All manga evidence is against such a notion:

1) No illusion was explicitly or implicitly implied in the manga. Every illusion before/after it was SHOWN.
2) Aizen stated that he had simply adapted himself to counter it, and also says that anyone else can do it, thus, negating the dependency on any exclusive hax abilities that one may possess. It is all a simple matter of visual/reflex mental coordination.
3) The cut inflicted on Aizen's shoulder was shown more than once, thus rendering any additional missing blood as nothing but the artist's lack to details, as I have already demonstrated with the Shinji's forehead cut example.


Hmmm...I'd argue but what's the sense, theres really nothing to gain from such an endeavour. I'll simply provide you with a link

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-405-page-16.html

If that page never existed, I'd indulge in a little back and forth but it does...so what are you going to do? You're in simple denial and you'll just deny you're in denial and attack me and so a vicious cycle.
But that is an exercise in futility when there is only one logical conclusion...KS was used

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:23 PM
Hmmm...I'd argue but what's the sense, theres really nothing to gain from such an endeavour. I'll simply provide you with a link

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-405-page-16.html

If that page never existed, I'd indulge in a little back and forth but it does...so what are you going to do? You're in simple denial and you'll just deny you're in denial and attack me and so a vicious cycle.
But that is an exercise in futility when there is only one logical conclusion...KS was used

Meaningless panel.

One simple concept is all that is needed to understand:

Any illusion must be shown for it to have taken place. Otherwise, it did not occur = myth. It is up to you to prove the myth.

Aizen did not use KS in his fight against Shinji, as he had already said so in the manga.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 12:25 PM
In the manga, the fact that Aizen never stated he used KS like he did in the anime kinda constitutes for evidence against Aizen using it. And I assume anime is not going to be considered canon in this tourney. Just sayin.

Who said I was referencing the anime at all? I was speaking of Aizen himself (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html) denying the notion that there was ever a time he wasn't using KS

Thus an argument from ignorance is not an acceptable response to whether or not he did use it with Shinji (No proof he did so he didn't) =/

cracker
April 04, 2011, 12:28 PM
Who said I was referencing the anime at all? I was speaking of Aizen himself (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html) denying the notion that there was ever a time he wasn't using KS

Thus an argument from ignorance is not an acceptable response to whether or not he did use it with Shinji (No proof he did so he didn't) =/

Exactly...when was he not using it, who's to say. Simply because the Kubo didn't go back and reveal every detail about everything doesn't mean Aizen wasn't using KS at any opportunity that presented itself.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:30 PM
Exactly...when was he not using it, who's to say. Simply because the Kubo didn't go back and reveal every detail about everything doesn't mean Aizen wasn't using KS at any opportunity that presented itself.

Appeal to ignorance. Every illusion before/after was shown. If it wasn't shown=myth. Also, Aizen already states that he did not use KS in Shinji's fight - Chapter 387.

As for the panel (your last hope) - Let me easily debunk it:


Shinji: That's why I'm asking... / ...when the hell did you start using Kyouka Suigetsu?!!!
Aizen: ......Then allow me to ask this of you.
Aizen: When, precisely, did you fall under the misapprehension......... // ...that I was not using Kyouka Suigetsu?

Panel with Hitsugaya attacking Aizen is shown at the bottom of the page. Hence, Aizen only activated KS at that time, not the Shinji fight. Otherwise, you'd be denying manga facts.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:41 PM
Exactly...when was he not using it, who's to say. Simply because the Kubo didn't go back and reveal every detail about everything doesn't mean Aizen wasn't using KS at any opportunity that presented itself.

From the last-hope-panel that you quoted, you have debunked your own theory :amuse

This is the panel in which the manga implies that Aizen had started using his KS:

http://i56.tinypic.com/jj4ocm.png

After the Shinji fight. Hence, no KS in the Shinji fight. Yet another evidence.


Related text:


Shinji: That's why I'm asking... / ...when the hell did you start using Kyouka Suigetsu?!!!
Aizen: ......Then allow me to ask this of you.
Aizen: When, precisely, did you fall under the misapprehension......... // ...that I was not using Kyouka Suigetsu?

En Yang Ji
April 04, 2011, 12:44 PM
Aizen might not of used KS, there's no proof of whether he did or didn't anyway...but what would be the author's intent in making Shinji say what he did if Aizen was just going to prove him wrong right after?

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:48 PM
Aizen might not of used KS, there's no proof of whether he did or didn't anyway...but what would be the author's intent in making Shinji say what he did if he Aizen was just going to prove him wrong right after?

Proof that he did not use it is above, and also:

1) Aizen stated in the Shinji fight that he only relied on adapting himself to the situation, no mention of KS
2) Aizen states that he had only started using KS when Hitsugaya began attacking him
3) Aizen states that anyone else "can" adapt to Shinji's ability: erases KS out of the equation
4) Every illusion before/after was shown. Not shown = Myth. Up to you to prove it.

Buzz Killington
April 04, 2011, 12:50 PM
False. Thats not evidence thats the time he started using KS

Thats referencing the moment Hitsu mocked Aizen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-5/bleach/chapter-389.html) when he thought he wasn't using KS

Last chance Lucy, provide the panel where Aizen says this


Also, Aizen already states that he did not use KS in Shinji's fight - Chapter 387

You listed the Chapter and everything, so unless you're making shit up again, it shouldn't be hard to find now should it? :eyeroll

You haven't provided a shred of "evidence" in this thread =/

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:51 PM
I guess the poster above is clinching on the ropes for any last hope. As it stands, no KS in the Shinji fight as Aizen had already stated so. :amuse

shuha27
April 04, 2011, 12:57 PM
Chapter 387 said nothing about KS not being used. I just read the whole chapter and you can't tell if he used KS or not so yeah.....

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 12:59 PM
Chapter 387 said nothing about KS not being used. I just read the whole chapter and you can't tell if he used KS or not so yeah.....

Look up cnet128's translation; the answer is clear. Also, chapter 392 states that Aizen had started using KS when Hitsugaya attacked him - after the Shinji fight. Myth debunked on multiple levels.

Jackk
April 04, 2011, 01:23 PM
Chapter 392 does not state that Aizen started using KS when Hitsugaya attacked him. Chapter 392 has Aizen saying: "When did you start thinking I wasn't using Kyoka Suigetsu? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html)" And it references, in the button panel, the scene in which Hitsugaya mocks Aizen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-5/bleach/chapter-389.html) when he thought that Aizen wasn't using it. As Buzz Killington said, that is not evidence that Aizen only started using it at that exact moment. Aizen's statement highly implies that he was using it all along. Not to mention that when Aizen slashed Shinji in the back all of a sudden, he even made note of how his KS was superior (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html)....

Raizen
April 04, 2011, 01:28 PM
What is the point of arguing on nothing but baseless assumption. Neither side can fully prove their point and it doesn't seem either side will be able to convince the other. So seriously drop it!

Aizen has already proved more than a match for shinji. He took shinji's sakande calmly and figured out its ability. I personally believed he did not use KS since the author did not state such a thing. But I won't get into that argument.

Shinji has not impressed me in the least bit. He took on an injured grimjow with one arm, while stating he was not holding back, and still was unable to kill him. While aizen on the other hand can scare a fll powered grimjow with just his reiatsu. Huge difference in strength there. Then in FKT, shinji was stupid enough to take off his mask against aizen only to narrowly dodge an attack by tousen and getting injured in the process.

Not to mention, after 100 years of preparing to fight aizen, not one of the vizards came up with an effective plan or strategy to fight aizen. They only showed up just to get pwned. Then the fact that he screamed like a psycho pansy for ichigo because his retarded teammate got the fodder treatment. So yes, shinji and the rest of his vizard group were pathetic to say the least

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 01:47 PM
Chapter 392 does not state that Aizen started using KS when Hitsugaya attacked him. Chapter 392 has Aizen saying: "When did you start thinking I wasn't using Kyoka Suigetsu? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html)" And it references, in the button panel, the scene in which Hitsugaya mocks Aizen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-5/bleach/chapter-389.html) when he thought that Aizen wasn't using it. As Buzz Killington said, that is not evidence that Aizen only started using it at that exact moment. Aizen's statement highly implies that he was using it all along. Not to mention that when Aizen slashed Shinji in the back all of a sudden, he even made note of how his KS was superior (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html)....

Take your time and read this here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2380135#post2380135), the full conversation is:

Shinji: That's why I'm asking... / ...when the hell did you start using Kyouka Suigetsu?!!!
Aizen: ......Then allow me to ask this of you.
Aizen: When, precisely, did you fall under the misapprehension......... // ...that I was not using Kyouka Suigetsu?


Pay attention to the bold part, if you can :)

Proving once and for all that Aizen started using KS after his fight against Shinji. Myth completely debunked.

Not to mention, you're conveniently ignoring Aizen's statement, and the fact that he had only relied on his adaptation skills. All manga evidence is against you. Then there is the simple fact that no illusion was shown: keep hanging on your myth.


[hr]

Then the fact that [Shinji] screamed like a psycho pansy for ichigo because his retarded teammate got the fodder treatment. So yes, shinji and the rest of his vizard group were pathetic to say the least

Haha, loved that :) Thanks for the laughs.:amuse

All of the Vizards were shown as a pathetic group and given the fodder treatment. Can't argue against that.

Jackk
April 04, 2011, 02:18 PM
All you keep doing is repeating the same things, which Buzz Killington and others have already countered. Good job Lucy, you have shown that you are capable of copy and paste, and resort to ad nauseam arguments.

Not to mention that you made this claim:


Also, Aizen already states that he did not use KS in Shinji's fight - Chapter 387.

But truth is, you didn't prove your claim. In fact, your claim that Aizen stated that he did not use KS in Shinji's fight in chapter 387 was completely false.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:20 PM
All you keep doing is repeating the same things, which Buzz Killington and others have already countered. Good job Lucy, you have shown that you are capable of copy and paste, and resort to ad nauseam arguments.

Not to mention that you made this claim:

But truth is, you didn't prove your claim. In fact, your claim that Aizen stated that he did not use KS in Shinji's fight in chapter 387 was completely false.

All you keep doing is bring up a complete myth that was not shown, hinted, or mentioned anywhere in the manga. Good job.

As for your allegation that I did not prove my claim, cnet128's translations of chapter 387 and 392 is all one needs to look at.

Your argument fell the moment that you started it, for it is nothing but a myth :)

Good job at ignoring Aizen's statement too in which he simply states that he just adapted. He did not use KS.

Alas, chapter 392 already proves my point.

Hystzen
April 04, 2011, 02:26 PM
Both sides of this arguement prove nothing as both sides dont have proof.

one side "claims it manga fact" he used KS only twice which it doesnt obviously show

one side claims logic

I mean Aizen is a beast but to take on 4 vizards (3 old captains), 2 drained captains, 1 SENIOR CAPTAIN , 1 bankai captain without KS..please not even yamma could handle that many enemies and with just shikai.

Aizen did need KS to win.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:28 PM
Both sides of this arguement prove nothing as both sides dont have proof.


Which means that you are already on the side that says "imaginary KS was used against Shinji"

That much is certain. :p

Takahashi
April 04, 2011, 02:34 PM
I do agree with Lucy on the Shinji fight. I've always used the argument that Aizen used KS the moment Hitsugaya first attacked him, which was the bottom panel after admitting to using it. It would kind of destroy my argument of "Aizen needed KS to deal with all of the captains/ Vaizards" if I went and said he also used it beforehand :P

At any rate, I agree with Hystzen in that I don't think anyone can say anything definitive because of how much of a mindfuck KS is. I don't buy that Aizen really did all that he did sealed, it's an impossibility in my mind.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:34 PM
I mean Aizen is a beast but to take on 4 vizards (3 old captains), 2 drained captains, 1 SENIOR CAPTAIN , 1 bankai captain without KS..please not even yamma could handle that many enemies and with just shikai.


Most of them were heavily injured, fatigued, and at the point of sheer exhaustion, and had pushed themselves beyond their limits (such as Soifon).

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:39 PM
I do agree with Lucy on the Shinji fight. I've always used the argument that Aizen used KS the moment Hitsugaya first attacked him, which was the bottom panel after admitting to using it. It would kind of destroy my argument of "Aizen needed KS to deal with all of the captains/ Vaizards" if I went and said he also used it beforehand :P


Indeed. From my understanding, most who resort to the KS excuse is simply because they refuse to believe that Aizen could have taken on multiple captains/vice captains with such ease. But they forget the fact that almost all of the captains were heavily injured, fatigued, and extremely exhausted.
[hr]

lol, Lucy, I take it you're just "thanking" the first part of my post?

:eyeroll:amuse

Hystzen
April 04, 2011, 02:39 PM
Most of them were heavily injured, fatigued, and at the point of sheer exhaustion, and had pushed themselves beyond their limits (such as Soifon).

Shunsui was fresh...no wounds, shinji was fine, Lisa was fine, rose and love where good too.

only ones drained where Koma, Soi Fon and Histu

the rest where in fine form heck all them never used bankai so they where no where near drained or exhausted


over the shinji KS i really cant tell.. part mind says he did use KS as he never knew shinjis shikai as shinji never trusted him so was bit worried...other part says it Aizen vs 1 guy no need for KS

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:43 PM
Shunsui was fresh...no wounds, shinji was fine, Lisa was fine, rose and love where good too.

only ones drained where Koma, Soi Fon and Histu

the rest where in fine form heck all them never used bankai so they where no where near drained or exhausted


over the shinji KS i really cant tell.. part mind says he did use KS as he never knew shinjis shikai as shinji never trusted him so was bit worried...other part says it Aizen vs 1 guy no need for KS

Shunsui already took heavy damage from Starrk during the color game. Starrk had used his most powerful color. Just look at what happened to Starrk as an example: Shunsui's most powerful color killed him. Also, Shunsui was hit by a cero and was knocked out.

Shinji had already battled Aizen/Tousen/Gin, but he didn't participate in the fight either, so doesn't really matter. Aizen simply KOed at the end (he was too slow to react).

Lisa might have been fine, but she's a VC. Fodder to Aizen no matter how you look at it.

For you to claim that "Shunsui was fresh...no wounds" despite blatant manga evidence, shows that you are not serious and hence I shall take your post with a major grain of salt.

Hystzen
April 04, 2011, 02:49 PM
Shunsui already took heavy damage from Starrk during the color game. Starrk had used his most powerful color. Just look at what happened to Starrk as an example: Shunsui's most powerful color killed him. Also, Shunsui was hit by a cero and was knocked out.


Yet people claim Shunsui pwned Starrk so easy with no effort with shikai. Be careful of shunsui fans for that post they claim that cero did nothing even colour game did nothing :oh.

Shinji only had the "magic"wound on face that was their then disappeared even then he never went all out against his fights he held back . And i would not call his exchange with Tousen as a fight he just dodged 1 blow that it.

Rose and Love where not that bad...they where ready to fight Starrk further.

LucyBenard
April 04, 2011, 02:52 PM
Yet people claim Shunsui pwned Starrk so easy with no effort with shikai. Be careful of shunsui fans for that post they claim that cero did nothing even colour game did nothing :oh.

Shinji only had the "magic"wound on face that was their then disappeared even then he never went all out against his fights he held back . And i would not call his exchange with Tousen as a fight he just dodged 1 blow that it.

Rose and Love where not that bad...they where ready to fight Starrk further.

:blink You're blaming the Shunsui fans for influencing your perception of the manga? It is you that said "Shunsui was fresh....no wounds".

Alas, you are clearly underestimating everyone's injuries for your argument. Need someone more neutral.

CeroOskuraz
April 04, 2011, 02:56 PM
I mean Aizen is a beast but to take on 4 vizards (3 old captains), 2 drained captains, 1 SENIOR CAPTAIN , 1 bankai captain without KS..please not even yamma could handle that many enemies and with just shikai.

Aizen did need KS to win.

begging the question. Prove that statement that I bolded or your statement just falls through invalid.

Diablos
April 04, 2011, 05:17 PM
No call Aizen stupid! He very smart, very smart! He do things no one does! very smart, controlled everything and does now also! I voted Aizen! AIZEN RULE ALL!

Actually Aizen got stabed but Shinji was under ks if Aizen doenst get it in time an gets stabed somewhere critical its gameover. So I wouldnt go around with Sealed Aizen. But this is a battle in full power and ofc Ks > sakanade

ShootToKill
April 04, 2011, 05:18 PM
Whether Aizen was capable or not of defeating that number of Captains without KS, the fact remains that Aizen was not one to allow for the possibility of a chance defeat. After his transformations, he believed himself to be invincible, so let his guard down, but prior to this, he would use all the means at his disposal to make sure he was not defeated. As I said before, what reason can you provide for him NOT using KS?

I believe it's up to the people who don't believe Aizen was using KS to provide some proof, since the logical conclusion to reach is that he was.

SaintSheik
April 04, 2011, 05:18 PM
I wouldn't say Aizen would need KS to fend off battle-worn shinigami and vaizards, but he did need KS to get past the united efforts of Shunsui/Soi Fon/Shinji/Hitsugaya.

CeroOskuraz
April 04, 2011, 05:50 PM
No, he definitely did not need KS for the situation. No matter how you look at the situation, he blitzed four people before anyone of them could react.

It's not as simple as blitzing one person; it's blitzing four people before any of them can react.

zimbardo
April 04, 2011, 06:24 PM
No, he definitely did not need KS for the situation. No matter how you look at the situation, he blitzed four people before anyone of them could react.

It's not as simple as blitzing one person; it's blitzing four people before any of them can react.

Just tell me for the record - How can one possibly react to someone, if they have no way for definate to know where the guy is and what he is doing?
Aizen waited till they were off guard AND he had them under KS already.

CeroOskuraz
April 04, 2011, 06:47 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-11/bleach/chapter-392.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-12/bleach/chapter-392.html

KS was turned off.

Apparently Toshiro knew where Aizen was (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-20/bleach/chapter-392.html)

zimbardo
April 04, 2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-11/bleach/chapter-392.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-12/bleach/chapter-392.html

KS was turned off.

Apparently Toshiro knew where Aizen was (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-20/bleach/chapter-392.html)

Apparently everyone knew where Aizen was before as well..... (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-17/bleach/chapter-391.html)

Aizen can turn KS on and off at will, when he feels like, and whenever gives him an advantage.

If it was so easy to find and attack Aizen, Kyouraku wouldn't have been telling Toshiro to wait (and therefore be careful incase it is all an illusion) when he went charging off in the link you gave.

CeroOskuraz
April 04, 2011, 07:21 PM
Apparently everyone knew where Aizen was before as well..... (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-17/bleach/chapter-391.html)

Except KS simply had nothing to do with it.

It's the fact that they had openings (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-20/bleach/chapter-392.html)

Otherwise when they were actually verifiably under the influence of KS, he could've one-shotted them.


Aizen can turn KS on and off at will, when he feels like, and whenever gives him an advantage.

Because clearly one-shotting four people at the same time is something fakeable by KS amirite? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-21/bleach/chapter-392.html)

Not taking into account Ichigo's witnessed events...


If it was so easy to find and attack Aizen, Kyouraku wouldn't have been telling Toshiro to wait (and therefore be careful incase it is all an illusion) when he went charging off in the link you gave.

No, dude, that is not why. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-18/bleach/chapter-391.html)

zimbardo
April 04, 2011, 07:58 PM
Except KS simply had nothing to do with it.

It's the fact that they had openings (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-20/bleach/chapter-392.html)

Otherwise when they were actually verifiably under the influence of KS, he could've one-shotted them.

Openings that could well have been caused by KS. And even if not, were down to Shinji, Soifon and Kyouraku worrying about Hitsuguya running off into what may be an illusion.


Because clearly one-shotting four people at the same time is something fakeable by KS amirite? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-21/bleach/chapter-392.html)

Not taking into account Ichigo's witnessed events...

Yes and No. But that is not my point. We already know that Ichigo can not react to Aizen's speed, but there is nothing to suggest that Kyouraku, Shinji or Soifon could not. Also, what Ichigo sees and what the captains see is not necessarily the same thing. As proved many times (too late to search for the pages, but the whole stabbing Hinamori - the Shinji fight - All the soul society Aizen parts.....
Taking those into account, Ichigo seeing Aizen taking out captains with no resistance - no matter how quickly he does it - would be shocking to Ichigo anyway.


No, dude, that is not why. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-18/bleach/chapter-391.html)

I disagree. The situations are different. In the page you posted they thought they had Aizen trapped. Later on Aizen was in the open (so even if they were not under KS, they knew he was a threat and knew that staying in a close formation on guard would have been much safer).

kkck
April 05, 2011, 01:50 AM
Even if aizen used KS I would still think that what he did at the end against those captains would have been outright impossible if he was not significantly faster. It's not like aizen has 4 swords to cut them down with, he had one. Aizen would have necessarily have to cut them in a specific order with one captain being first and another being last. Heck, based on the wounds aizen even came from the front and the 4 captains knew where aizen was. In that sense, only the first captain who was cut down has the excuse that aizen used KS however the orders should have noticed that aizen cut down the first captain. Obviously they did not, they could not react to aizen's speed. Had aizen been in a league anywhere near those captains then they would have been able to react to that. One way or another the captains were speedblits by aizen.

THM Nindo
April 05, 2011, 08:57 AM
Yeah... this one is obvious...
We saw it in the manga.

As much as I like Shinji... Aizen was able to see through his trick and beat him.
There's nothing Shinji can do against him...

Raizen
April 05, 2011, 12:25 PM
@Cero KS or not, aizen could not 1-shot the captains shunsui,, hitsu, soifon, and shinji if they have their guard up. That is why he needed a distraction to get them to lower their guard. Then when they did he used KS to get close and take them down. U do realize that KS can manipulate their perception of time and what happened right?

zimbardo
April 05, 2011, 12:26 PM
Aizen would have necessarily have to cut them in a specific order with one captain being first and another being last. Heck, based on the wounds aizen even came from the front and the 4 captains knew where aizen was. In that sense, only the first captain who was cut down has the excuse that aizen used KS however the orders should have noticed that aizen cut down the first captain. Obviously they did not, they could not react to aizen's speed. Had aizen been in a league anywhere near those captains then they would have been able to react to that. One way or another the captains were speedblits by aizen.

Well, as KS can make people see whatever Aizen wants them to - The captains would not necessarily have even known that the other captains had been cut down until they themselves had. Also due to KS it is impossible to say that they did know where Aizen was. KS is just that good.
Perhaps you misunderstand me though. It's not that I think Aizen will lose this matchup. With KS (if he can get it on) it will be a cakewalk. It's just that without it, I think the fight will be a lot closer than you all seem to be suggesting. Aizen is not Yamamoto, with KS he doesn't need to be.

I certainly do not think he could have beaten those 4 captains so convincingly (if at all) had they not been affected by KS at the start of their fight.

tousendrinksbleach
April 05, 2011, 12:43 PM
you are right, they didnt know what was going on to the other captains .... we got to see ichigo's reaction at the end and it pretty much showed us that they didnt know what they were doing for quite some time
KS = unbeatable , not unless you have an even more hax bankai (i say bankai because we have seen all shikais, and apparently only yama's can actually stand a chance)

a03
April 05, 2011, 02:26 PM
Hint: we've already seen this battle in the manga :)

Aizen has this one in the bag:

Speed: Aizen
Reiatsu: Aizen
Kido: Aizen
Swordsmanship: Aizen
Abilities: Aizen
Intellect: Aizen
Strength: Aizen

Also, Aizen DID NOT lolKS-troll Shinji in the manga; the cut inflicted on Aizen's arm can be seen later on throughout the chapter. We did not see it 10 chapters later because the author simply neglected it.

the sad truth

vizardichigo
April 05, 2011, 02:49 PM
Yup :amuse

Sealed Aizen vs. Shikai Shinji was already demonstrated in the manga. Aizen already demonstrated that he possesses the intelligence to deduce Shinji's ability and the skills to counter it with ease.

I see Aizen winning this one without even releasing.

Aizen wins this one no doubt but i disagree. IMO Aizen only won because of KS. I honestly believe that 1 of 2 options happened.

1) The Aizen Shinji cut was an illusion. How i interpreted their fight is that Aizen used KS before Shinji released Sakanade and just used an illusion to fool Shinji. He then stood and watched and listened to Shinji's ability and watched as Shinji attacked nothing but thin air. He then used the knowledge he gained to maneuver the directions and cut Shinji..

2) Aizen really was cut, then he just used KS to fool Shinji and as Shinji and made Shinji attack an illusion then while his back was turned he used the knowledge he learned and turned backwards and cut Shinji....

So Aizen wins but ONLY with KS...Without it he loses. But Aizen gets my vote...I mean we have seen it in the manga so there is really no argument for Shinji....

El Samurai Guapo
April 05, 2011, 04:30 PM
Everyone has pretty much summed up the reasons why Aizen would require KS to defeat Shinji, as well as all of the captains he took out at once. If something is apparent to most readers then that's apparently what the author intended.

Another big one for me though is Isshin. Takahashi has brought this one up a lot before too. Sure Ichigo's old man is very powerful, but there's no way am I buying for a minute that he's better than all the captain levels Aizen took out combined, injured or not. I'm not even convinced he's individually better than Shunsui, let alone Shinji.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 01:05 AM
El Samurai Guapo
Isshin is sure better in sealed against sealed Aizen, so he is surely better than the same sealed Shunsui or Shinji. He might not take multiple strong Captains while sealed, but still I believe he can take the likes of Koma, Tousen and Mayuri while fighting two on one, cause the same Aizen pretty much showed that he is capable of taking several Captains down even without illusions.

P.S. Also I understand that you like Shinji, but why you are always insisting that Shinji is just one of the strongest and even stronger than Shunsui? He only showed the Mask that only granted him Cero and nothing else that can't be countered by a strong opponent and a Shikai that was trashed from the get-go.:)

El Samurai Guapo
April 06, 2011, 01:17 AM
El Samurai Guapo
Isshin is sure better in sealed against sealed Aizen, so he is surely better than the same sealed Shunsui or Shinji. He might not take multiple strong Captains while sealed, but still I believe he can take the likes of Koma, Tousen and Mayuri while fighting two on one, cause the same Aizen pretty much showed that he is capable of taking several Captains down even without illusions.

Or he did use illusions and neither shikai Isshin nor sealed Aizen are quite as strong as you think.


P.S. Also I understand that you like Shinji, but why you are always insisting that Shinji is just one of the strongest and even stronger than Shunsui?

Cause he is one of the strongest?

Don't act like it's just me that thinks so, he's one of the four that made it to the semi-finals for a reason.


He only showed the Mask that only granted him Cero and nothing else that can't be countered by a strong opponent


Mask that only granted him a cero? You mean besides that significant boost of reiatsu and all other stats.


and a Shikai that was trashed from the get-go.:)

More like bypassed by a dude with a superior level of hypnosis.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 08:22 AM
El Samurai Guapo

Or he did use illusions and neither shikai Isshin nor sealed Aizen are quite as strong as you think.
Ok, I agree to disagree on the point that Isshin was sealed during all the fight in FKT.:)
At least about Aizen I don't have opinion. It's pretty much manga fact that he was the strongest excluding Yama in Gotei. So at least individually he was able to take everyone exept Yama even without his illusions. And that is a manga fact and a fact proven by Databook.;)



Cause he is one of the strongest?

Don't act like it's just me that thinks so, he's one of the four that made it to the semi-finals for a reason.
So when I say that Isshin or Aizen are strong you say that it's my opinion, but when we talk about Shinji you try to imply that it's a fact. He got so far in the Tournament only because of his fanbase. It's the same with Ichigo bitting Starrk and Yami.
Also if you believe that the character without any strong attacks can be among four strongest Bleach characters... it's just an opinion as much as I have an opinion that Kenpachi, Kensei, Ichigo and Isshin are stronger than him.;)


Mask that only granted him a cero? You mean besides that significant boost of reiatsu and all other stats.
Even with Mask he won't be stronger physically than Kenpachi, Yama or Koma and won't be faster than Yoruichi and Soi Fong.
I agree that he gets a boost, but it isn't that significant and important and also he can use Mask for only two minutes and that isn't that great if he is fighting against the likes of Aizen or other high tier Captains like Shunsui, Yoruichi, Ukitake.


More like bypassed by a dude with a superior level of hypnosis.
Aizen didn't use hypnosis to bypass his Shikai when they were fighting one on one. And that was my point. In the other case he did use illusion, but he was fighting against four Captains (3 in Shikai and 1 in Bankai).

Deepak5191
April 06, 2011, 08:36 AM
Even if aizen used KS I would still think that what he did at the end against those captains would have been outright impossible if he was not significantly faster. It's not like aizen has 4 swords to cut them down with, he had one. Aizen would have necessarily have to cut them in a specific order with one captain being first and another being last. Heck, based on the wounds aizen even came from the front and the 4 captains knew where aizen was. In that sense, only the first captain who was cut down has the excuse that aizen used KS however the orders should have noticed that aizen cut down the first captain. Obviously they did not, they could not react to aizen's speed. Had aizen been in a league anywhere near those captains then they would have been able to react to that. One way or another the captains were speedblits by aizen.

Well if he did use KS, then whats stopping him from not letting the other captains see him attacking the others. KS is not going to be broken just because he started attacking. It controls all the senses of its victims so the captains not being able to react doesn't necessarily Aizen blitzed them, could also mean that they didn't see him start attacking until he was done attacking, if at all, thanks to KS.

WaveBossa
April 06, 2011, 01:37 PM
KS.... some of you guys are forgetting what it does...

Think of the PS3 adds, "It does.... EVERYTHING"

Aizen cant lose, I'm not even gonna waste time and make up a mock fight, This is a no contest.

For every thing you say Shinji can do, KS can counter it, period.

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 07:48 PM
It is obvious that Aizen did not use Kyōka Suigetsu against Shinji. For everyone that wants to believe that; you're beating on a dead horse. I've already debunked all such myths. But then again, those who support this theory are die-hard Shinji fans (the usual suspects). I guess nothing can be done about it :fail

All of the Vizards are pathetic; 100 years of preparation time and couldn't do anything.
[hr]


More like bypassed by a dude with a superior level of hypnosis.

Nice of you to share your opinion, here is mine: Aizen can one-shot Shinji while sealed :)

But then again, neither of those does matter; Aizen wins.

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 09:52 PM
It is obvious that Aizen did not use Kyōka Suigetsu against Shinji. For everyone that wants to believe that; you're beating on a dead horse. I've already debunked all such myths. But then again, those who support this theory are die-hard Shinji fans (the usual suspects). I guess nothing can be done about it :fail

All of the Vizards are pathetic; 100 years of preparation time and couldn't do anything.
<hr noshade size="1">


Nice of you to share your opinion, here is mine: Aizen can one-shot Shinji while sealed :)

But then again, neither of those does matter; Aizen wins.
No, you're flogging the dead horse, you've made the same post about 10times and still not provided any proof that Aizen didn't use KS vs Shinji, just some poor argument about it not being officially stated that he did.

We don't know that he used KS, but we certainly don't know that he didn't, and Aizen's desire to be in control and the fact that he used it on a less dangerous opponent than Shinji provide strength to the argument that he did use it. And before you reply, I'm not saying he didn't work out Sakanade, I fully believe Aizen is capable of this, but I am saying that I believe he used KS in order to actually land a hit on Shinji.

And "the Vizards are pathetic" makes it sound more like you're the Shinji hater as opposed to me being the Shinji fan :)

zimbardo
April 06, 2011, 10:07 PM
Also this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-17/bleach/chapter-392.html) to me, suggests that he has not stopped using KS since he first turned up in the fake Karakura town.

As, let's face it, as no shinigami has (as of yet) shown any strain from using shikai for extended periods of time, is there any reason why Aizen would not have wanted to have KS on whilst he was fighting soul society?

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 10:29 PM
No, you're flogging the dead horse, you've made the same post about 10times and still not provided any proof that Aizen didn't use KS vs Shinji, just some poor argument about it not being officially stated that he did.

*Sigh*. As I had guessed. The same die-hard Shinji fans beating the dead horse over again. I have already proved it, even if you deny it (which you obviously will). :amuse

Aizen never used KS :)

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 10:31 PM
@ Mr Harry Potter :amuse That post implies that he has been using KS the first moment hitsu attacked aizen. So when he encountered shunsui, hitsu, soifon, and shinji.
But KS was not used when he owned love, rose, koma, and lisa.

But really neither side is going to be able to convince the other. I personally do not believe aizen used KS against shinji. That part of the battle was to show how superior/strong aizen is compared to shinji... and he suceeded.

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 10:40 PM
@ Mr Harry Potter :amuse That post implies that he has been using KS the first moment hitsu attacked aizen. So when he encountered shunsui, hitsu, soifon, and shinji.
But KS was not used when he owned love, rose, koma, and lisa.

But really neither side is going to be able to convince the other. I personally do not believe aizen used KS against shinji. That part of the battle was to show how superior/strong aizen is compared to shinji... and he suceeded.

So true. The die-hard Shinji fans will bring up KS as a redundant mythical excuse. Then again, I saw it coming miles away, especially when some of them are like Shinji > Yama.
[hr]


And "the Vizards are pathetic" makes it sound more like you're the Shinji hater as opposed to me being the Shinji fan :)

I go by manga facts, mmm, let's see here:

Lisa, Shinji, Love, Rose: One-shot by Aizen
Hyori: One-shot by Gin
Kensei, Mashiro: Beaten by WW (who was fodder to Yama)

Wow. Should I be impressed? I call them pathetic for a reason. :eyeroll

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 10:48 PM
Lisa, Shinji, Love, Rose - one-shotted by Aizen with KS.
Hiyori - backstabbed by Gin.
Kensei, Mashiro - beaten by WW, arguably the strongest Arrancar, certainly top 3 Espada level.

Losing to Aizen with KS = no shame, Losing to WW who has only been shown at full strength against Yama = no shame, and a VC level being beaten by Gin = no shame, let alone backstabbed.

What "manga facts" are these? It not being explicitly stated that Aizen used KS which therefore by your logic means that he definitely didn't?

Jackk
April 06, 2011, 10:51 PM
Aizen one-shotted Shinji? It looked more like Aizen giving Shinji--with no Mask--a nasty slash in the back and he still didn't go down (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html). So much for being someone who goes by manga facts Lucy... :amuse

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 10:53 PM
Lisa, Shinji, Love, Rose - one-shotted by Aizen with KS.
Hiyori - backstabbed by Gin.
Kensei, Mashiro - beaten by WW, arguably the strongest Arrancar, certainly top 3 Espada level.

Losing to Aizen with KS = no shame, Losing to WW who has only been shown at full strength against Yama = no shame, and a VC level being beaten by Gin = no shame, let alone backstabbed.

What "manga facts" are these? It not being explicitly stated that Aizen used KS which therefore by your logic means that he definitely didn't?

Obviously. If KS was used, it will be stated explicity. If not, then nothing but a myth. How hard a concept is that :)

As for your "Losing to Aizen with KS", no such thing. Aizen defeated all of the Vizards without KS, including Shinji.

@Urahara_Fan: :amuse Shinji is one-shotted by Aizen later on. :)

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 10:59 PM
Lisa, Shinji, Love, Rose - one-shotted by Aizen with KS.
Hiyori - backstabbed by Gin.
Kensei, Mashiro - beaten by WW, arguably the strongest Arrancar, certainly top 3 Espada level.

Losing to Aizen with KS = no shame, Losing to WW who has only been shown at full strength against Yama = no shame, and a VC level being beaten by Gin = no shame, let alone backstabbed.

What "manga facts" are these? It not being explicitly stated that Aizen used KS which therefore by your logic means that he definitely didn't?
KS was never implied to be used against love, rose, and lisa. Aizen didn't appear out of nowhere or seemed to use some type of illusion. It was just inst-owned.

Kensei used bankai and arguably mask against WW and still lost. Although its not that bad since WW was really strong. But i am glad u are not one of those that believe "WW didn't really beat kensei" LOL

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 11:01 PM
KS was never implied to be used against love, rose, and lisa. Aizen didn't appear out of nowhere or seemed to use some type of illusion. It was just inst-owned.

Kensei used bankai and arguably mask against WW and still lost. Although its not that bad since WW was really strong. But i am glad u are not one of those that believe "WW didn't really beat kensei" LOL

LOL. Speculation has its limits too, I mean. It is one to thing to state your opinion, and another when you resort to fabricating facts.

Anyway, this battle will be over in just over an hour now. Aizen vs. Yama for the final :)

vizardichigo
April 06, 2011, 11:15 PM
At the end of the day no one knows for sure what happened. Kubo left it vague like that for a reason, to generate interest and cause debates. Aizen never said that he did or did not use KS vs Shinji or vs Shinji, Hitsu, Shunsui, Soi fon. Some people believe Aizen beat those 4 sealed, some believe KS was used. No one can prove for sure what happened but its unfair for someone to say that what they believe is what happened. I think Aizen used KS vs Shinji but regardless he still wins. That doesnt make me a shipper or an idiot, its just my opinion which im still entitled to.

Jackk
April 06, 2011, 11:17 PM
@#1-Die-hard-Shunsui-Fan: :amuse Shinji--with no Mask--had already tanked a slash in the back from Aizen, thus he was not one-shotted by him. Unless you can show where Unohana or Hachi healed Shinji off-panel. :)

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 11:19 PM
@#1-Die-hard-Shunsui-Fan: :amuse Shinji--with no Mask--had already tanked a slash in the back from Aizen, thus he was not one-shotted by him. Unless you can show where Unohana or Hachi healed Shinji off-panel. :)
what does that have to do with shunsui?!

Jackk
April 06, 2011, 11:21 PM
what does that have to do with shunsui?!

The same it had to do with Urahara?

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 11:23 PM
KS was never implied to be used against love, rose, and lisa. Aizen didn't appear out of nowhere or seemed to use some type of illusion. It was just inst-owned.

Kensei used bankai and arguably mask against WW and still lost. Although its not that bad since WW was really strong. But i am glad u are not one of those that believe "WW didn't really beat kensei" LOL
He didn't need to have appeared out of nowhere, he could have created an illusion of himself a couple of feet away from his true position, making it easy to avoid their attacks and counter.

About the WW fight, I definitely believe Kensei lost. Aizen might have used KS to alter WW's position according to Kensei's perception for all we know, since he needed to keep WW safe for Yama, but I don't believe it would come to this - WW was insanely strong, I believe he was up to legitimately defeating Kensei in Bankai.

@LucyBenard I'm not responding any more on this subject, you truly seem to believe that Kubo needs to state every single time Aizen uses KS in the manga, even though this would make for pretty poor dialogue - every 5 pages Aizen saying "lol btw I used KS". I think Kubo wants us to come to logical conclusions about some things without all the details being explicitly stated based on what we know about the character's history/personality, since stating literally every single detail would become tiresome for him and his readers.

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 11:26 PM
He didn't need to have appeared out of nowhere, he could have created an illusion of himself a couple of feet away from his true position, making it easy to avoid their attacks and counter.

About the WW fight, I definitely believe Kensei lost. Aizen might have used KS to alter WW's position according to Kensei's perception for all we know, since he needed to keep WW safe for Yama, but I don't believe it would come to this - WW was insanely strong, I believe he was up to legitimately defeating Kensei in Bankai.

@LucyBenard I'm not responding any more on this subject, you truly seem to believe that Kubo needs to state every single time Aizen uses KS in the manga, even though this would make for pretty poor dialogue - every 5 pages Aizen saying "lol btw I used KS". I think Kubo wants us to come to logical conclusions about some things without all the details being explicitly stated based on what we know about the character's history/personality, since stating literally every single detail would become tiresome for him and his readers.
1. Now those would be assumptions.

2. I think we can agree WW owned kensei fair and square

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 11:28 PM
1. Now those would be assumptions.
Correct, but ones which could easily be true.


2. I think we can agree WW owned kensei fair and square
Probably :D

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 11:36 PM
^If there were such indications, perhaps.
In all the times KS has been used, it was obvious.
Halibel: aizen's glass shattered
Shunsui and co: Aizen states so himself. Hinamori switch.
Unohana: sword turns to body

LucyBenard
April 07, 2011, 12:04 AM
He didn't need to have appeared out of nowhere, he could have created an illusion of himself a couple of feet away from his true position, making it easy to avoid their attacks and counter.

About the WW fight, I definitely believe Kensei lost. Aizen might have used KS to alter WW's position according to Kensei's perception for all we know, since he needed to keep WW safe for Yama, but I don't believe it would come to this - WW was insanely strong, I believe he was up to legitimately defeating Kensei in Bankai.

@LucyBenard I'm not responding any more on this subject, you truly seem to believe that Kubo needs to state every single time Aizen uses KS in the manga, even though this would make for pretty poor dialogue - every 5 pages Aizen saying "lol btw I used KS". I think Kubo wants us to come to logical conclusions about some things without all the details being explicitly stated based on what we know about the character's history/personality, since stating literally every single detail would become tiresome for him and his readers.

Nope. Aizen did not create an illusion of himself a couple of feets away when fighting anyone. Any such claims are simply theoretical since the manga does in no way whatsoever indicate otherwise.

Wrong again. Aizen did not use KS to Alter WW's position while he was taking on Yamamoto at the same time.

Obviously, the author needs to show an illusion if it were to have taken place in real time. Otherwise, it'll be nothing but a myth, as you've been conjecturing these past few days because you simply refuse to believe that Aizen is above captain class. Either that, or you're one heck of a Shinji fan.

I think Kubo will show us what he wants to show us, illusions or no illusion; as I had pointed out before: KS is a major feat and is really confusing. Ergo, for Kubo to showcase its abilities, he has to show it to the readers.

Look like Aizen has won by a healthy margin. :)

Tsukisama
April 07, 2011, 12:05 AM
It's no illusion! Aizen wins the match! He shall compete against Yamamoto to decide who the winner of the tournament will be.

It's not over for Shinhi though. Shunsui shall compete against Shunsui to decide who will come in third place.

Discuss the result of this match and all others in the Tournament Discussion thread. Stay tuned for more details! :cheerbunny