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View Full Version : Info Bleach Tournament Discussion Thread - Part 2



MangaHelpers
April 05, 2011, 12:53 PM
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 66408

thornofcarrion
April 05, 2011, 12:53 PM
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Welcome to The Bleach Tournament!


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This is where you can discuss all things relevant to this tournament. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the tournament rules here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66382).


We shall update the first post with the pertinent things to discuss:


Current Discussion Agenda

•Prediction of the tournament winner

The tournament is soon to begin! Now that you know who is going to face whom, why not offer your thoughts on who's going to win it all? It should be interesting to see who is favored to win it all and who actually does win.

•Thoughts about the tournament combatants

There are plenty of characters in Bleach, and unfortunately, not all of them could make it into the tournament. How do you feel about the characters we have selected? Are there characters that you would have included that were not and how do you think those characters would have done?

•Fan art submissions

Thank you to everyone who submitted fan art to be used in the banners! Be sure to marvel at the love art provided by your peers as each battle ensues!


*Enjoy and let the discussions about the Bleach Tournament commence!*



Bleach Tournament Information




Yamamoto vs Aizen
Yamamoto: 101
Aizen: 67Shunsui vs Shinji
Shunsui: 66
Shinji: 54

Aizen vs Shinji
Aizen: 90
Shinji: 28Yamamoto vs Shunsui
Yamamoto: 93
Shunsui: 14

Ichigo vs Shinji
Ichigo: 57
Shinji: 79Aizen vs Urahara
Aizen: 69
Urahara: 61Shunsui vs Yoruichi
Shunsui: 68
Yoruichi: 36Yamamoto vs Soifon
Yamamoto: 95
Soifon: 9

Ichigo vs Yammy
Ichigo: 69
Yammy: 32Kenpachi vs Shinji
Kenpachi: 36
Shinji: 74Aizen vs Ulquiorra
Aizen: 88
Ulquiorra: 22Urahara vs Isshin
Urahara: 62
Isshin: 37Yoruichi vs Byakuya
Yoruichi: 78
Byakuya: 49Shunsui vs Gin
Shunsui: 61
Gin: 50Tousen vs Soifon
Tousen: 30
Soifon: 59Yamamoto vs Ukitake
Yamamoto: 86
Ukitake: 15

Ichigo vs Starrk
Ichigo: 67
Starrk: 56Hitsugaya vs Yammy
Hitsugaya: 39
Yammy: 72Kenpachi vs Harribel
Kenpachi: 67
Harribel: 44Kensei vs Shinji
Kensei: 17
Shinji: 96Aizen vs Hachigen
Aizen: 97
Hachigen: 12Ulquiorra vs WW
Ulquiorra: 87
WW: 36Szayel vs Urahara
Szayel: 4
Urahara: 105Komamura vs Isshin
Komamura: 5
Isshin: 91Byakuya vs Mashiro
Byakuya: 85
Mashiro: 11Yoruichi vs Lisa
Yoruichi: 96
Lisa: 0Shunsui vs Rangiku
Shunsui: 94
Rangiku: 7Ikkaku vs Gin
Ikkaku: 5
Gin: 102Ishida vs Soifon
Ishida: 22
Soifon: 73Tousen vs Yumichika
Tousen: 78
Yumichika: 11Ukitake vs Chad
Ukitake: 84
Chad: 6Yamamoto vs Tessai
Yamamoto: 84
Tessai: 15

Mayuri vs Starrk
Mayuri: 19
Starrk: 78Rose vs Yammy
Rose: 34
Yammy: 56Nelliel vs Harribel
Nelliel: 31
Harribel: 54Kensei vs GJ
Kensei: 62
GJ: 20Zommari vs Hachigen
Zommari: 23
Hachigen: 60Love vs WW
Love: 30
WW: 52Szayel vs Ayon
Szayel: 60
Ayon: 19Komamura vs Nnoitra
Komamura: 45
Nnoitra: 42Hisagi vs Mashiro
Hisagi: 27
Mashiro: 56Renji vs Lisa
Renji: 38
Lisa: 47Rukia vs Rangiku
Rukia: 37
Rangiku: 51Ikkaku vs Aaroniero
Ikkaku: 68
Aaroniero: 20Ishida vs Hinamori
Ishida: 87
Hinamori: 5Yumichika vs Kira
Yumichika: 48
Kira: 35Ōmaeda vs Chad
Ōmaeda: 6
Chad: 74Baraggan vs Tessai
Baraggan: 29
Tessai: 66


Team Big Gunz vs Team Toxic Arrow
Team Big Gunz: 53
Team Toxic Arrow: 20Team Chocolate Love vs Team Magic Muscles
Team Chocolate Love: 35
Team Magic Muscles: 36

Team Big Gunz vs Team Magic Muscles
Team Big Gunz: 54
Team Magic Muscles: 30Team Chocolate Love vs Team Toxic Arrow
Team Chocolate Love: 32
Team Toxic Arrow: 38

Team Aqua Beauty vs Team Magic Muscles
Team Aqua Beauty: 33
Team Magic Muscles: 45Team Cueball Cubed vs Team Big Gunz
Team Cueball Cubed: 16
Team Big Gunz: 55Team Chocolate Love vs Team Ice, Ice Baby
Team Chocolate Love: 51
Team Ice, Ice Baby: 22Team Heavy Metal vs Team Toxic Arrow
Team Heavy Metal: 31
Team Toxic Arrow: 41

Team Retro Pink vs Team Magic Muscles
Team Retro Pink: 8
Team Magic Muscles: 72Team Aqua Beauty vs Team Test Tube Symphonics
Team Aqua Beauty: 61
Team Test Tube Symphonics: 16Team Big Gunz vs Team Raggs to Riches
Team Big Gunz: 62
Team Raggs to Riches: 28Team Cueball Cubed vs Team Krazy Kidz
Team Cueball Cubed: 51
Team Krazy Kidz: 40Team Ice, Ice Baby vs Team Ladies Knight
Team Ice, Ice Baby: 48
Team Ladies Knight: 35Team 69 vs Team Chocolate Love
Team 69: 28
Team Chocolate Love: 46Team Toxic Arrow vs Team Tough Berserker
Team Toxic Arrow: 58
Team Tough Berserker: 22Team Heavy Metal vs Team Fujoshi Dream
Team Heavy Metal: 46
Team Fujoshi Dream: 40






Kurosaki Ichigo (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/ichigo.jpg?t=1294272257) [also by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Kurosaki_Ichigo.jpg)])
Uryu Ishida (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Uryu.jpg))
Yasutora Sado aka Chad (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/chad.jpg))
Kurosaki Isshin (fan art by Ustegius (http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/016/0/7/kurosaki_isshin_by_riksa90-d37awpm.jpg))
Urahara Kisuke
Shihoin Yoruichi (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/yoruichi_shihoin.jpg))
Tsukabishi Tessai
Genryusai Shigekuni Yamamoto (fan art by Ustegius (http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/015/b/1/old_yama_by_riksa90-d3788k9.jpg))
Soi Fon
Kuchiki Byakuya (fan art by daichi383 (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/daichi383/byakuya3.png))
Komamura Sajin
Kyoraku Shunsui
Hitsugaya Toshiro (fan art by Waking_Dreamer (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/HitsugayaBadassBig.png))
Zaraki Kenpachi (fan art by Ustegius (http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Riksa90/kenpachi3.jpg?t=1295013978))
Mayuri Kurotsuchi (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/mayuri-1.jpg))
Ukitake Jushiro
Ichimaru Gin
Aizen Sosuke
Tosen Kaname
Omaeda Marechiyo
Kira Izuru (fan art by daichi383 (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/daichi383/Izuru_Versus_Dalkmine.png))
Momo Hinamori
Abarai Renji
Hisagi Shuhei
Matsumoto Rangiku
Madarame Ikkaku
Kuchiki Rukia
Ayasegawa Yumichika
Hirako Shinji
Aikawa Love (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Love_Aikawa.jpg))
Kuna Mashiro
Muguruma Kensei (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Muguruma_Kensei.png))
Otoribashi Rojuro aka Rose (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Rose.png))
Ushoda Hachigen
Yadomaru Lisa
Coyote Starrk
Baraggan Luisenbarn (fan art by Ustegius (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/016/b/2/barragan_by_riksa90-d37awdj.jpg))
Tia Harribel (fan art by Evil3ye (http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/11386.jpg))
Ulquiorra Cifer (fan art by Bugzee (http://img708.imageshack.us/f/ulquiorras1.jpg/))
Nnoitra Gilga (fan art by Evil3ye (http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/12383.jpg))
Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/41325_148599598498553_100000455419786_331299_3836076_n.jpg))
Zommari Rureaux (fan art by Evil3ye (http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/13605.jpg))
Szayel Aporro Granz (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/Szayel.jpg))
Aaroniero Arruruerie
Yammy Llargo
Allon (fan art by Hystzen (http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af118/hyst-gundam/allon.jpg))
Margela Wonderweiss
Nelliel Tu Odelschwanck (fan art by Evil3ye (http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/9633.jpg))


The Bleach Tournament will consist of 62 matches: 47 matches in Champion bracket and 15 in Loser bracket. A total number of 48 characters will be participating in the tournament. Byes will be given to 16 most powerful characters. The characters will battle each other in one versus one matches, until a final winner is determined

The initial matches have been pre-selected due to the wide range of characters' power levels and talents to make it as fair and balanced as possible.



http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-thumbnails/14600 (http://mangahelpers.com/gallery/bleach-tournament/14600)

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-thumbnails/14752 (http://mangahelpers.com/gallery/bleach-tournament/14752)




There shall be six rounds: Round 1, Round 2, Round 3, Quarter-finals, Semifinals, and Final.
Each match shall last for 5 days.
During Round 1 and Round 2, there shall be two matches going concurrently at a time.
During Round 3, the Quarter-finals, Semifinals, and Final rounds, each match shall run concurrently from a match from the Loser bracket.
The next set of matches shall begin on the third day of the previous set of matches. Example: Matches A and B begin on Monday and will continue until Friday. Matches C and D will begin on Wednesday and end on Sunday. Matches E and F would begin on Friday (the day matches A and B end) and continue until the following Tuesday.... and so on.

The staff has decided to not allow any other fight discussion to take place while the Bleach Tournament is ongoing, as it would interfere, disrupt, and compete with our official Bleach Tournament.

All fight threads in El Campo will be temporarily hidden while the Bleach Tournament is ongoing and will return unchanged at the end of the tournament. In addition, no new threads may be started in that section from now until the end of the tournament, although you may feel free to continue any existing discussions you wish until that time. Thanks in advance for your understanding. :)

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tousendrinksbleach
April 05, 2011, 12:53 PM
you are right, as i stated if its perfect hypnosis then he can finish the fight with hado and win 100% . but he went and made WW , perhaps because he wants a perfect plan , or perhaps he just wanted to humiliate yama but i dont doubt that his illusions are perfect as long as you arent holding the sword

Xerneas
April 05, 2011, 01:04 PM
Obviously KS has limits. Otherwise most of the plot would be pointless. Aizen could have taken over SS years ago instead of scheming in the dark. Then get his Hogyoku and start the ball rolling on his Royal takedown plan. All without anybody realizing it. That didn't happen, and the only reason I can think of is that he can't beat Yamamoto even with KS. He basically admitted to it anyway so there's not much of a debate. FKT arc was already bad enough without assuming one of the very few important plot points (WW plan) was pointless.

I give Aizen no more than a 25% chance of defeating Yamamoto. Which is still far greater than anybody else in the tournament since their chances are pretty much nil. I'll explain that number when the matchup comes.

P.S. Forgot that Gin alluded to some sort of limit too. He said that KS was very frightening but thats not enough to make powerful people submit. Aizen had great strength behind that which allowed him to control all the Espada. I don't doubt he was stronger than all of them together, like he said. Too bad its still not enough. -_-

tousendrinksbleach
April 05, 2011, 01:08 PM
do you see any restriction in the manga? bring me a proof and you are welcome ... yama wins

ShootToKill
April 05, 2011, 01:15 PM
Absolute control of the senses implies that people can be hypnotized into feeling anything Aizen desires, including causing them immense pain (sense of touch) or depriving them of all senses including touch (superior Tousen Bankai). If he could do either of these things, as has been said, he wouldn't have required such a convoluted scheme. My theory is that KS is limited to creating "believable" illusions - ones which can't be immediately contradicted by the mind of the victim.

Xerneas
April 05, 2011, 01:17 PM
There's something called inference dude. You don't need a flat out statement (although we pretty much got one anyway). If Aizen was invincible with KS what we saw wouldn't have happened, Gin wouldn't have said what he did, and Aizen wouldn't have said what he did after unveiling WW.

Raizen
April 05, 2011, 01:31 PM
Obviously KS has limits. Otherwise most of the plot would be pointless. Aizen could have taken over SS years ago instead of scheming in the dark. Then get his Hogyoku and start the ball rolling on his Royal takedown plan. All without anybody realizing it. That didn't happen, and the only reason I can think of is that he can't beat Yamamoto even with KS. He basically admitted to it anyway so there's not much of a debate. FKT arc was already bad enough without assuming one of the very few important plot points (WW plan) was pointless.

I give Aizen no more than a 25% chance of defeating Yamamoto. Which is still far greater than anybody else in the tournament since their chances are pretty much nil. I'll explain that number when the matchup comes.

P.S. Forgot that Gin alluded to some sort of limit too. He said that KS was very frightening but thats not enough to make powerful people submit. Aizen had great strength behind that which allowed him to control all the Espada. I don't doubt he was stronger than all of them together, like he said. Too bad its still not enough. :amuse
Except right after gin said that, it is shown that aizen needed to use KS in order to escape the captains. So it makes his statement about aizen's strength without KS pretty much useless lol

Jorge D. Dragon
April 05, 2011, 01:43 PM
Raizen
I wouldn't say that the fact that Aizen used Kyoka Suigetsu to escape from Captains gainging him the proof of him not being as strong as Gin implied.:)
I'd say that it's rather logical, cause he isn't invincible. He can be hit and can be killed, so of course 4 or more Captains with Shikai and Bankai trying to gang him is pretty a good fit in itself.:) There wasn't actually anyone to even be that powerful to fight more than he managed before in the manga.:)
We know that Yama can do even better than Aizen, but Aizen still is a damn strong Shinigami.:) He is the only one who actually has a chance to take down Yama, even though it's not better than 25%.:) At least for me.

Also about the momet when he sliced Hitsu, Shunsui, Soi Fong and Shinji in a moment... even if he used Kyoka Suigetsu to make an opening it's still a big fit to cut down Captains so easily. Also taking in consideration that all his opponents during the FKT fight were in Shikai or Bankai exept for Isshin and Yama.:)

Xerneas
April 05, 2011, 01:51 PM
I do think Aizen is stronger without KS than he gets credit for. Its true that his non-KS feats in FKT were buffed (the opponents he pwned without it were already battle weakened and him tanking hadou 96 must be taken with a huge grain of salt since the move was severely weakened - no incantation and the user was hurt bad beforehand). But still, he pwned Grimmjow with a stare and whilst I view Grimm as trash in the grand scheme, he wasn't fodder level at that point. There's no doubt Aizen's reiatsu is huge. Problem is it still pales in comparison to who he's up against. To be able to use a move which can level multiple towns if not carefully controlled, speaks for itself.

The logic I will use in his match is the same one I was using vs Shinji and vs Urahara. Which is, there are two scenarios to consider. One where his opponent gets the jump on him before he can activate KS and the other where he activates it before they can do anything. So its not like I'm being unfair or inconsistent.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 05, 2011, 01:56 PM
Serenade
I'd actually say that Aizen is stronger than everyone one on one without Kyoka Suigetsu, exept for Yama (pretty obvious) and Isshin (they had a fight in the manga and Aizen didn't have the upper hand and even Isshin was better I'd say).:)

Raizen
April 05, 2011, 01:58 PM
Raizen
I wouldn't say that the fact that Aizen used Kyoka Suigetsu to escape from Captains gainging him the proof of him not being as strong as Gin implied.:)
I'd say that it's rather logical, cause he isn't invincible. He can be hit and can be killed, so of course 4 or more Captains with Shikai and Bankai trying to gang him is pretty a good fit in itself.:) There wasn't actually anyone to even be that powerful to fight more than he managed before in the manga.:)
We know that Yama can do even better than Aizen, but Aizen still is a damn strong Shinigami.:) He is the only one who actually has a chance to take down Yama, even though it's not better than 25%.:) At least for me.

Also about the momet when he sliced Hitsu, Shunsui, Soi Fong and Shinji in a moment... even if he used Kyoka Suigetsu to make an opening it's still a big fit to cut down Captains so easily. Also taking in consideration that all his opponents during the FKT fight were in Shikai or Bankai exept for Isshin and Yama.:)
I just meant that it kind of make us question gin's statement. At least have aizen show his strength without KS for a bit. :/

And taking down captains with KS is proof of his strength. But i think only around the strength of shunsui. After all , shunsui was able to KO a powerful fighter starks with just his shikai.

Question: does shikai increase one's SP? I was under the notion it doesn't

Jorge D. Dragon
April 05, 2011, 02:03 PM
Raizen
Normally I thought that Shikai increases reiatsu 5 times and Bankai futher increases by 10 times.:)

I thought he actually trashed Koma's Bankai and Love + Rose without Kyoka Suigetsu.:)
Also Aizen actually used sealed sword to one-shot Captains.:) Shunsui used Shikai to take down Starrk.:) So it isn't the same.:)

Xerneas
April 05, 2011, 02:10 PM
Yeah I shouldn't have mentioned that Gin statement cause Kubo was clearly on something during FKT and went and contradicted it twice. Gin was also suggesting even Aizen's non-KS abilities were peerless, yet we have the latter admitting inferiority to Yama, complete with only-ever-modded-Arrancar-scheme, and then admitting equality to Urahara (KS excluded I'd think). So yeah, anybody reading the topic so far, forget that I ever mentioned Gin. -_-;

Raizen
April 05, 2011, 02:15 PM
Raizen
Normally I thought that Shikai increases reiatsu 5 times and Bankai futher increases by 10 times.:)

I thought he actually trashed Koma's Bankai and Love + Rose without Kyoka Suigetsu.:)
Also Aizen actually used sealed sword to one-shot Captains.:) Shunsui used Shikai to take down Starrk.:) So it isn't the same.:)
I don't think shikai increase your reiatsu 5x. Most of the times when someone release their shikai, not once has it been stated that their reiatsu increased.

Hmm... i guess aizen did take out koma, rose, love, and lisa w/o KS. I guess that would have been the best time for gin's statement.

And aizen was technically using shikai since he was using KS to take down shunsui, hitsu, soifon, and shinji

Jorge D. Dragon
April 05, 2011, 02:18 PM
Serenade
I'm not actually buying the "equality" to Urahara. I agree the Kisuke is strong, but clearly not even on Shunsui's level. So of course he isn't on Aizen's level.:) Aizen needed to sealed slices to take down Harribel. Shunsui needed Shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

And about Yama... of course that Aizen isn't as strong as Yama. Gin's statement never contradicted it. He just said that Aizen isn't only about his Zan.:)

Takahashi
April 05, 2011, 02:18 PM
Question: does shikai increase one's SP? I was under the notion it doesn't

It releases more power from your Zan than sealed, so I'd assume there's some increase in SP.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 05, 2011, 02:21 PM
Raizen
I might be wrong in ammount, but I really thought it was mentioned that Shikai and Bankai increas your spiritual presure.:)

I'd say it's safe to assume that some of the Captains were taken with sealed sword and some with Shikai.:)

ShootToKill
April 05, 2011, 02:22 PM
I think that in Shikai and Bankai more Reiatsu is released, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to physical power - it can take the form of maintaining something like Tousen's sensory deprivation "tent" and KS' illusions, whereas with someone like Gin, it increases power as well as other abilities.

Random101
April 05, 2011, 02:26 PM
I'd imagine, other than the obvious abilities the shikai grants, it simply increases the power output to the blade. Ie: the blade is sharper and is harder to cut. There's no remote mention of a stat increase, so that's really the only thing that would logically be boosted.

Ignoring, again, the abilities it grants of course. Those are variable, but notably no one really has a shikai that outright increases any of their base states. Only Ichigo's bankai really does anything to the core physical attributes overall, ignoring Resurrections which are another kettle of worms entirely.

ShootToKill
April 05, 2011, 02:34 PM
I'm not sure that it has to make the weapon itself more powerful, I just think that it releases a quantity of Reiatsu which is translated into various abilities, some of which are not power related but consume Reiatsu nonetheless (Tousen's Bankai, Aizen and Shinji's Shikai), whereas others can transform the weapon into something more powerful, eg. Hisagi's Shikai - in which the increased Reiatsu would be devoted to changing the form of the weapon / increasing cutting power.

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe it's implied anywhere that a Bankai like Tousen's would increase the cutting power of his blade, just that more Reiatsu is released, which might all be targeted towards maintaining his Bankai special ability.

Random101
April 05, 2011, 02:39 PM
I get this from Ichigo's easily cuttable sealed blade to his highly resistant shikai. Of course there's precious few comparison's otherwise to be had, we've never really seen someone other than Ichigo being completely unable to cut someone with shikai but then effortlessly being able to in bankai (Ie: the don, Grimmjaw is similar but he barely even got scratches on the guy with just bankai), much less from sealed to shikai.

Hard to gauge overall without more feats from someone who isn't a variable mess, but the logic behind the assertion is there.

AlB
April 05, 2011, 02:45 PM
Except right after gin said that, it is shown that aizen needed to use KS in order to escape the captains. So it makes his statement about aizen's strength without KS pretty much useless lol

Not entirely useless. The guy was facing off head of Ninja Corps, arguably 3rd strongest man in Gotei 13, child prodigy and a troller like himself. Of course he would resort to his Zan, it's completely normal. Why do so many people assume that Aizen is useless without KS?
As for using KS in order to escape captains - If not for the sake of mindfuck they would get same treatment as others.

Still not enough to beat full-power batshit crazy bankaied Yama :p

En Yang Ji
April 05, 2011, 03:34 PM
Serenade
I'm not actually buying the "equality" to Urahara. I agree the Kisuke is strong, but clearly not even on Shunsui's level. So of course he isn't on Aizen's level.:) Aizen needed to sealed slices to take down Harribel. Shunsui needed Shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

And about Yama... of course that Aizen isn't as strong as Yama. Gin's statement never contradicted it. He just said that Aizen isn't only about his Zan.:)

IMO Urahara is on a higher level than Shunsui or Ukitake. He was able to block WW attack with his back turned to WW, while Ukitake was taken out in one hit, even though he was facing WW.

Also Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi were able to take on a power up Aizen for longer time than the Gotei 13 (minus Yama) even though they had only three people.

Kazu-Sama
April 05, 2011, 04:34 PM
If KS was instantaneous to use, easy to use, and without restriction, or in fact just quick to use, why the heck did Aizen not just KS Ichigo?
Ichigo was SS's 'Only hope', surely Aizen, if he could, would just instantly release KS and hey presto, SS is screwed...

El Samurai Guapo
April 05, 2011, 04:37 PM
Neither shikai nor bankai increase reiatsu.

Both are purely changes with the zanpakutou. I'm sure in bankai form it could be perceived a character has more reiatsu (because they'd be throwing out more), but actually increasing a character's reiatsu would translate to all their stats being bumped up—which we know does not happen. Sajin doesn't become any faster, stronger, better at kidou, or better at taking hits when he has his bankai out. Neither does Kaname, Byakuya, Soi Fon, Gin, Mayuri, etc. Ichigo is a partial exception because what his bankai primarily does is make Ichigo himself faster.
If it was true that shinigami gained 5-10x higher reitatsu when they use their bankai, we should have seen massive stat increases in all of the above.

Wow, imagine Aizen; he could have probably forced the entire Gotei 13 to their knees by releasing his bankai.

The 5-10x comment by Yoruichi was a guesstimate on her part. Obviously it's not going to be the same for every shinigami, and it also doesn't mean it will create a 5-10x superior version shikai either. I mean, of course certain bankais (like Kaname's) are seemingly unrelated to their respective shikai, so I take Yoruichi's words as meaning that a shinigami becomes 5-10x deadlier than they are in their shikai state. Using Kaname as an example, we can easily see how his bankai makes him far deadlier. You could also argue that Soi Fon's bankai makes her deadlier, (but of course this could depend on who she's up against)—so I take the whole 5-10x thing with a grain of salt. One thing that is for certain though is they do not get a reiatsu increase.

Now, there is a boost we know of that does increase reiatsu, and thereby all stats: hollowfication—which is why I've been stressing to you all the importance of the masks for the last two years. Look at it this way: imagine how powerful Toushirou, Kenpachi, Byakuya, and Soi Fon would be with hollow masks added to their already captain level strength. That's the level Love, Rose, Shinji, and Kensei are at.

Hystzen
April 05, 2011, 04:45 PM
bankai raises power by 10 not sure it that covers reiastu not sure http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-120-page-12.html

Raizen
April 05, 2011, 05:57 PM
Raizen
I might be wrong in ammount, but I really thought it was mentioned that Shikai and Bankai increas your spiritual presure.:)

I'd say it's safe to assume that some of the Captains were taken with sealed sword and some with Shikai.:)
I believe rose, love, lisa, and koma were taken with a sealed sword since he didn't need KS with them.

Shunsui, shinji, soifon, and hitsu were taken out by shikai powered aizen since he used KS on them
[hr]

Not entirely useless. The guy was facing off head of Ninja Corps, arguably 3rd strongest man in Gotei 13, child prodigy and a troller like himself. Of course he would resort to his Zan, it's completely normal. Why do so many people assume that Aizen is useless without KS?
As for using KS in order to escape captains - If not for the sake of mindfuck they would get same treatment as others.

Still not enough to beat full-power batshit crazy bankaied Yama :p
I am not saying that aizen is useless without his KS. My point is that i believe aizen to be about shunsui's level. So with KS, he was able to take out shunsui when shunsui had his guard down.

So if yama can basically school poor shunsui, i think aizen would suffer the same fate. KS or not. And truthfully, it already happened in the manga :amuse
[hr]

IMO Urahara is on a higher level than Shunsui or Ukitake. He was able to block WW attack with his back turned to WW, while Ukitake was taken out in one hit, even though he was facing WW.

Also Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi were able to take on a power up Aizen for longer time than the Gotei 13 (minus Yama) even though they had only three people.
Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.

Aizen was going easy on urahara, youruichi, and Isshin. He did not attack, instead he let them try whatever they wanted on him. The moment he attacked, he took them all out. Furthermore, KS is a huge factor since complete hypnosis is something i consider more dangerous than Hokyoku aizen

En Yang Ji
April 05, 2011, 06:54 PM
I believe rose, love, lisa, and koma were taken with a sealed sword since he didn't need KS with them.

Shunsui, shinji, soifon, and hitsu were taken out by shikai powered aizen since he used KS on them
<hr noshade size="1">

I am not saying that aizen is useless without his KS. My point is that i believe aizen to be about shunsui's level. So with KS, he was able to take out shunsui when shunsui had his guard down.

So if yama can basically school poor shunsui, i think aizen would suffer the same fate. KS or not. And truthfully, it already happened in the manga :amuse
<hr noshade size="1">

Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.

Aizen was going easy on urahara, youruichi, and Isshin. He did not attack, instead he let them try whatever they wanted on him. The moment he attacked, he took them all out. Furthermore, KS is a huge factor since complete hypnosis is something i consider more dangerous than Hokyoku aizen

I agree, for the most part, I just dislike it when people say stuff like this:


Shunsui needed shikai to take down Starrk. In the same time Urahara couldn't even take sealed Yami and Wondy with his Shikai. Actually his only moment to shine was when he was permited to do what he wanted with Aizen and he actually inflicted lesser damage than one Getsuga from Isshin or Yoruichi's Shunkou.

- Shunsui did beat Starrk, but it was a circumstantial win.

- Urahara was playing with Yammi. What's said in the quote above is just like saying Aizen couldn't have killed Ichigo (when Ichigo first showed up in FKT) just because he didn't.

- the battle between WW and Urahara was a short skirmish. Yammi interrupted their fight.

-Aizen may have been play around, but even at the level he was fighting at, he still was amazingly strong. Aizen would have killed them if they couldn't fight at a high level. Aizen praised them for their strength.

- Urahara doing less damage than Yoruichi and Isshin doesn't prove his attacks are weaker than Shunsui .

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 07:49 PM
Urahara doesn't have a weak spot for kids and if i remember correctly, he was hit by a bala from WW.

Ukitake has a weak spot for kids (ie the whole lilynette thing). And he was also paying attention to fura and only noticed WW for a split second before he got hit.


-You didn't remember correctly; Kisuke actually dodged WW's bala.

-Weak spot for kids doesn't mean you have to stay there and let the kid put a hand through your body....

Random101
April 05, 2011, 08:49 PM
He got hit as I recall. He even says to Yammi that after watching him for so long he studied the technique to the point that he won't get hit by another of those, which is a directly implication he got hit at some point there. Given I heavily doubt Yammi ever got a hit on him, and his back appeared to be smoking and frayed as if hit by something (Admittedly how he got hit in the back when he fired from the front is beyond me) Wonderwiess hitting is the only answer there.

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 09:38 PM
No. Wonderweiss didn't hit Kisuke with his bala...

Here, look: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/11.html ...As you can see, the smoke is coming from underneath Kisuke's feet. The middle panel of that page shows a lot of lines and smoke in the bottom portion of the same panel, which indicates that Kisuke is moving really fast as he's backing off to avoid getting hit by Wonderweiss's bala....and then the bottom panel clearly shows the smoke coming from underneath his feet. Also look at the distance that Kisuke traveled; we can barely see wonderweiss in the far distance in the bottom right panel of that page. Further, we can also see that there is no smoke coming from Kisuke's body in that particular page.

What we see in the upper right panel of the next page (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/12.html) is that the smoke that Kisuke had created as he moved quickly to dodge the attack is now dispersing upwards in the air. Kisuke was not burnt at the right shoulder since the smoke is not coming from his shoulder...it's actually coming from underneath his feet and flowing upwards from behind his shoulder. Kisuke does not even look hurt at all; Wonderweiss failed to hit him with the bala.

Tonix
April 05, 2011, 10:25 PM
If Starrk and Mayuri face each other again in the loss finals, do they get knowledge of each others abilities?

Random101
April 05, 2011, 10:31 PM
And yet look: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/12.html

The back of his right shoulder is frayed as if something hit it, and better still: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c235/6.html

"I won't... ...be hit again."

He was hit at some point between there. Either Yammi did it, which I give Urahara more cred than being hit by bloody Yammi, or Wonderwiess did, who not only is a one hit wonder but he has damage implications already from that hit and you can't argue he used a replacement there either.

Takahashi
April 05, 2011, 10:58 PM
If Starrk and Mayuri face each other again in the loss finals, do they get knowledge of each others abilities?

Nope.

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 11:05 PM
Did you not read my previous post Random101? There was no smoke coming from Kisuke's body here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/11.html ...Not to mention that WW attacked from the front and not from the back; WW didn't hit him. The smoke was created from Kisuke backing off really fast as he moved away to dodge the bala.

And if Kisuke was hit, then it was by Yami in the button panel here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/12.html ...which actually makes sense considering that Kisuke was distracted talking to WW. Not to mention that balas are 20 times faster than ceros (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c234/13.html) too. Though that Bala didn't even really hurt Kisuke anyway, so it's no big deal as he looked fine when he came back to toy with Yami (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c235/3.html).

Random101
April 05, 2011, 11:14 PM
I'm talking about the frayed back, not the smoke. Though frankly arguing that there was no smoke previously doesn't work when we don't see high enough on his shoulder to be sure. Seriously, the thing cuts off too low, and given the way his back is frayed he was hit in the upper right of his shoulder just at the top (As the scope of bala is simply that small).

Seriously look at his shoulder. Just where the smoke is coming from you can see little juts out from his shoulder that shouldn't be there unless he was damaged. Dude was hit. Granted it didn't do much either way you slice it, but I'd hardly expect a bala to do jack given cero's are rarely worth crap.

thornofcarrion
April 05, 2011, 11:23 PM
If Starrk and Mayuri face each other again in the loss finals, do they get knowledge of each others abilities?

That would be no. Contestants have no information about each other. Whether they face each other for the first time or its a rematch in loser tournament.

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 11:23 PM
And yet the back of Kisuke's right shoulder shows no damage here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c235/7.html

...Though you're probably going to say that he healed himself and brought an extra coat in case he needed to change and did so while he was down studying Yami's balas....

Random101
April 05, 2011, 11:26 PM
Either he got hit by Wonderwiess or he got hit by Yammi. In either case? His cloak got torn up. Look at the one Yammi hit, you see his back tearing up worse, there should be a gigantic hole there as opposed to some little tearing near the top. So assuming he didn't do precisely that, there's an inconsistency either way.

Or more likely, Gigai. Dude's in a gigai, making more completely fine portable Gigai's, switching with them in an instant. So yeah, he brought an extra coat, it was right there, all he had to do was blow it up and change into it.

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 11:34 PM
I thought Kisuke fought in his spiritual body and just used the portable gigai as a substitution tech. And how could WW hit Kisuke in the back with the bala if he actually attacked from the front and the panels show Kisuke backing off quickly? Yami was the one who attacked from the back, no?

Random101
April 05, 2011, 11:41 PM
Hell if I know, Gigai are weird. However, given he's not in shinigami black robes, I'd assume he's always chillin in Gigai. Though frankly even the black robes are freaking variable as hell, on the one hand Ichigo's spirit goes from normal clothes he was wearing to Shinigami garb, implying the garb comes with the powers. Then Ishida and Orihime steal the garb off two mooks and wear them themselves like nothing. Yeah.

Hard to say for sure, but considering both options have inconsistencies entailed assuming he didn't do precisely that, arguing his back is fine later is either an inconsistency, or that's precisely what he did and it's reasonably explained. I go with the later in this case, though Kubo's wound continuity is pretty horrid either way.

Valid on the the back hit being thrown into question, however it's irrefutable that he's got some tearing going on after the Wonderwiess hit, and I'd assume Urahara's way better than to let freaking Yammi hit him regardless.

Jackk
April 05, 2011, 11:53 PM
Well quite frankly I wouldn't be so quick to say he has a "tearing going on" ...it's actually too small to tell for certain that he was damaged, it could just been a drawing thing. I mean, Kisuke was shown backing off quickly and the smoke is shown to be created from the movement of his feet. And most importantly, WW attacking from the front and hitting Kisuke in the back doesn't make a whole lot of sense. WW doesn't have sakanade =/

Random101
April 06, 2011, 12:03 AM
Unless it nailed him when he went with that weird S-shaped curving movement, or what have you. So long as even his side was facing him at any point he's good for that sort of thing. I however refuse to believe his pathetic enough to get hit by Yammi. Ever. Surprise attack or not.

Jackk
April 06, 2011, 12:08 AM
Well either way, I'm sure we can both agree that Kisuke wasn't remotely injured; as in: he was in really good conditions...

Random101
April 06, 2011, 12:28 AM
Well obviously. If a cero rarely does jack all, a bala has no chance.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 12:55 AM
I agree, for the most part, I just dislike it when people say stuff like this:



- Shunsui did beat Starrk, but it was a circumstantial win.

- Urahara was playing with Yammi. What's said in the quote above is just like saying Aizen couldn't have killed Ichigo (when Ichigo first showed up in FKT) just because he didn't.

- the battle between WW and Urahara was a short skirmish. Yammi interrupted their fight.

-Aizen may have been play around, but even at the level he was fighting at, he still was amazingly strong. Aizen would have killed them if they couldn't fight at a high level. Aizen praised them for their strength.

- Urahara doing less damage than Yoruichi and Isshin doesn't prove his attacks are weaker than Shunsui .

You may like it or not, but still Shunsui won the battle against the second strongest released Espada while in Shikai. On the other hand Urahara couldn't inflict sufficient damage to anyone in this manga while always fighting in Shikai (Yammi, Ulquiorra, Wondy).

P.S. I like Urahara and I may understand his fans, but I don't buy that he is as strong as Aizen, cause actual fits from manga never suggested anything like this. He is actually not stronger than Shunsui, I'd say even lower in overall skills

El Samurai Guapo
April 06, 2011, 01:05 AM
Right, like Kisuke couldn't put his sword through Starrk's back while Starrk is not paying attention.

Honestly the fact that Shunsui happened to be in shikai state when he eliminated Starrk is irrelevant, even sealed swords from VCs can pierce unsuspecting opponents much more powerful than they are.

thornofcarrion
April 06, 2011, 01:49 AM
Nicely said ESG (sorry the full name is too long and complicated to write though I wrote a bigger sentence to explain it >.>;;;;;). We already saw Hisagi killing Tosen, a much much stronger opponent. Its more about making use of the opportunity. I am not saying Shunsui couldn't have defeated Starrk but I think the comparison that Starrk lost to a shikai doesn't portray the weakness of Starrk.

El Samurai Guapo
April 06, 2011, 02:05 AM
Nicely said ESG (sorry the full name is too long and complicated to write though I wrote a bigger sentence to explain it >.>;;;;;). We already saw Hisagi killing Tosen, a much much stronger opponent. Its more about making using of the opportunity. I am not saying Shunsui couldn't have defeated Starrk but I think the comparison that Starrk lost to a shikai doesn't portray the weakness of Starrk.

Which is actually the reason why I like Shunsui. I like him for what he is: a sneaky backstabber. That's what makes him dangerous and interesting IMO. Take your eyes off of him for a second and you just had a sword come out from your own shadow and ruin you day. He doesn't have to be amazingly powerful in upfront face to face confrontations; that's not his style.

I do get annoyed when people make it sound like Starrk dying at the hands of his shikai is an ungodly feat, when really the state of release means little when you're pulling the moves Shunsui was. It's not like he can go around in his shikai and totally embarrass another captain's bankai—which unfortunately is the impression some are under because if Shikai Shunsui > primera espada, and since other captains had a rough time with lower ranked espadas while going all out...

Aaroniero is another good example of how circumstantial defeats can and do happen in bleach. Ordinarily he should have been able to defeat Rukia, but due to the way things turned out he ended up getting killed by her shikai. Does this automatically mean ZOMG shikai Rukia > 9th espada? Err...no that wouldn't be taking into consideration the totality of the circumstances.

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 02:22 AM
Yeah, Stark may have been killed by a Shikai, but without the opening Shunsui had, and the fact that he was planning on using his Bankai, I think we can say it'd be necessary in a straight up fight.

Although Rukia and Hisagi had different wins. Shunsui wasn't outclassed to the same degree they were in their fights.

xXan
April 06, 2011, 03:08 AM
Yeah, Stark may have been killed by a Shikai, but without the opening Shunsui had, and the fact that he was planning on using his Bankai, I think we can say it'd be necessary in a straight up fight.

Although Rukia and Hisagi had different wins. Shunsui wasn't outclassed to the same degree they were in their fights.

I would like to see Shunsui fight Barragan in his shikai form lol.

decadoh
April 06, 2011, 04:14 AM
Neither shikai nor bankai increase reiatsu.

would it be safer to say that they are releasing more reiatsu when releasing shikai and performing bankai? im under the impression that releasing zans also releases a certain amount of reiatsu. not that it increases an individual's base reiatsu per se, instead it makes use of a portion of a shinigami's reiatsu which is sealed/unused prior to releasing a zanpaktou. a shikai release allows the user to release a great amount of his base reiatsu as compared to when that shinigami fights in a sealed state. and a bankai makes use/releases a far greater amount of reiatsu.


The 5-10x comment by Yoruichi was a guesstimate on her part. Obviously it's not going to be the same for every shinigami, and it also doesn't mean it will create a 5-10x superior version shikai either. I mean, of course certain bankais (like Kaname's) are seemingly unrelated to their respective shikai, so I take Yoruichi's words as meaning that a shinigami becomes 5-10x deadlier than they are in their shikai state. Using Kaname as an example, we can easily see how his bankai makes him far deadlier. You could also argue that Soi Fon's bankai makes her deadlier, (but of course this could depend on who she's up against)—so I take the whole 5-10x thing with a grain of salt. One thing that is for certain though is they do not get a reiatsu increase.

i was trying to look for the word to explain yoruichi's words regarding releases of zan and reiatsu. and i would say that your dead-right when you said that zan releases, shikai or bankai, makes a shinigami a far more deadlier opponent.

the bolded part, i commented on that point on the first part of my post :amuse


Now, there is a boost we know of that does increase reiatsu, and thereby all stats: hollowfication—which is why I've been stressing to you all the importance of the masks for the last two years. Look at it this way: imagine how powerful Toushirou, Kenpachi, Byakuya, and Soi Fon would be with hollow masks added to their already captain level strength. That's the level Love, Rose, Shinji, and Kensei are at.

and i agree with this. although there is a bit of inclination in me to believe otherwise (since i dont completely get kubo's mess of details regarding power levels, power boosts, and hollowfication), i, at least for now, believe that hollow ichigo is better/stronger than ss ichigo.

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 09:00 AM
Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm a Shunsui fan and I'd like to give my two cents about his win against Starrk.

I've seen comments which compares Shunsui's win with Hisagi's win against Tosen but I think the circumstances aren't completely similar. It's true that Shunsui took advantage of an opportunity against Starrk but Shunsui had already demonstrated skills which put him on par with Starrk, I mean they were more or less equal when they were both fighting with their sealed swords.

If Shunsui didn't use Kageoni to attack Starrk or it was someone else who directly attacked Starrk, IMHO Starrk would dodge and the attack would fail. We know Starrk was more than capable of dodging sneak attacks, he had already done it against Shunsui, I think it was the power of Kageoni that Starrk had fallen victim to which is a bonus point for Shunsui. Even Starrk praised the power of the technique, I don't think an ordinary attack would get similar praise. On the other hand, Hisagi managed to defeat Tosen because Tosen's sight provided Hisagi with an opening which was not related to Hisagi's skills in any way.

I also would like to point out that, unlike Tosen who died right after Hisagi stabbed him in the neck, Starrk wasn't done for after Shunsui stabbed him, he actually fought back and hurt Shunsui quite badly in Irooni. The fight could go either way at that point but Shunsui emerged victorious, thanks to a good trick, taking off his haori, closing Starrk's vision and changing the color he was wearing at the same time. It was pretty wise.

IMHO Kageoni and Irooni are one of the most hax techniques in the manga, right after Aizen's KS in hax scale. I don't think there were many techniques which would astonish primera espada but Kageoni did the job. I don't think Hisagi or some other captain like Ukitake could approach Starrk and stab him so easily, he was aware of his surroundings and IMHO the manga made a point by making Starrk praise Shunsui's technique. Kageoni and Irooni were the kind of hax that was necessary to take down Starrk but he wasn't kind of guy who could be defeated by ordinary attacks. He was too fast, too powerful, too skillful, too analytical for these attacks to work, IMHO even Aizen would need KS to defeat Starrk.

There's a Bleach tournament going on but I'm late for the fun but nevertheless it's nice to see that Shunsui proceeded to semi-finals. It was inevitable that he would lose to either Yamamoto who is the strongest of them all or Aizen who is the most hax. It's a fitting final with two of the strongest characters and even though the manga already made it clear that Yamamoto was stronger than Aizen, I believe Aizen will get a considerable support.

thornofcarrion
April 06, 2011, 11:49 AM
Hello Miyagi, welcome to MH and Bleach section :clap. Member Zone (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=935) is a great place to start, always nice to meet up with fellow members and staff. As you used to be a lurker (hopefully no more), you already know that when it comes to Bleach, these folks take it seriously :-_-. Too bad you missed the tournament, but we already are planning Naruto Tournament (see my sig). If you read it, make sure you participate in it.

On topic, about Shunsui and Hisagi, I used Hisagi to highlight the point raised by ESG that even shikai used at opportune moment, can defeat a stronger opponent. Under which circumstances it was used, its a different story. I can not base Starrk vs. Shunsui battle to judge Shunsui. Would Shunsui be able to use his shikai as effectively as he used against Starrk? For me, its a big question mark at the moment.

Waking_Dreamer
April 06, 2011, 12:20 PM
@ Miyagi Nice first post, and welcome.


Under which circumstances it was used, its a different story. I can not base Starrk vs. Shunsui battle to judge Shunsui. Would Shunsui be able to use his shikai as effectively as he used against Starrk?

I agree with this. We know one cero is enough to trip up Shunsui and I dont see Shunsui dodging a barrage of them while getting close to Starrk very easily - if at all. That is the only way for his games to work - to get close to Starrk.

The bottom line is how does Shunsui get close when a barrage of ceros or wolves are between him and Starrk? The circumstances in the manga prevented Shunsui to show solid feats to counter these attacks as he never had to face them...

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 12:42 PM
Hello Miyagi, welcome to MH and Bleach section :clap.

Thanks. :)


Member Zone (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=935) is a great place to start, always nice to meet up with fellow members and staff. As you used to be a lurker (hopefully no more), you already know that when it comes to Bleach, these folks take it seriously :-_-.

It takes two sides to have a heated discussion and if you know when to quit, I think there will be nothing to be concerned about. Everybody has different opinions and favorite characters, there's no reason to step on other people's toes.


Too bad you missed the tournament, but we already are planning Naruto Tournament (see my sig). If you read it, make sure you participate in it.

I'll certainly have a look at it, I used to read it but I lost interest after Jiraiya died.


On topic, about Shunsui and Hisagi, I used Hisagi to highlight the point raised by ESG that even shikai used at opportune moment, can defeat a stronger opponent. Under which circumstances it was used, its a different story. I can not base Starrk vs. Shunsui battle to judge Shunsui. Would Shunsui be able to use his shikai as effectively as he used against Starrk? For me, its a big question mark at the moment.

I agree that Shunsui's win against Starrk is somewhat controversial, actually I think that the only two characters who could overwhelm Starrk or Barragan with 100% certainty using only shikai are the finalists of the Bleach tournament. In any case, Shunsui did a good job against Starrk before they both released, so I believe it counts as a plus for Shunsui's case when it comes to judge Shunsui.

Hystzen
April 06, 2011, 12:45 PM
I going to be bold and say Aizen vs barragan that barragan would win ..espically if Barragan was released out to kill and not under KS...that how hax i saw barragan

Waking_Dreamer
April 06, 2011, 12:51 PM
I going to be bold and say Aizen vs barragan that barragan would win ..espically if Barragan was released out to kill and not under KS...that how hax i saw barragan

Yeah...but in character Barry is arrogant to the max, the more hax abilties you have - the less inclined you are to use it seems the pattern for Bleach.

Except for Aizen...

thornofcarrion
April 06, 2011, 01:38 PM
Thanks. :)

You are welcome :).


It takes two sides to have a heated discussion and if you know when to quit, I think there will be nothing to be concerned about. Everybody has different opinions and favorite characters, there's no reason to step on other people's toes.

Hehe serious in a good way I mean. Not that they cause trouble *whispers--->all the time* :p.



I'll certainly have a look at it, I used to read it but I lost interest after Jiraiya died.


I can understand but the tournament brings something different. Not forcing you, never hurt to try, no?


I agree that Shunsui's win against Starrk is somewhat controversial, actually I think that the only two characters who could overwhelm Starrk or Barragan with 100% certainty using only shikai are the finalists of the Bleach tournament. In any case, Shunsui did a good job against Starrk before they both released, so I believe it counts as a plus for Shunsui's case when it comes to judge Shunsui.


Shunsui overall has better chance of winning against Starrk. However, I doubt that in 1 vs. 1, he can win the battle with shikai only. Starrk's guns and wolves are enough to keep Shunsui away from him. Does anyone else think that the Shunsui's trying to, call it cheap shot or making use of opportunity, is contributed by the nature of his shikai?


I going to be bold and say Aizen vs barragan that barragan would win ..espically if Barragan was released out to kill and not under KS...that how hax i saw barragan

Had me thinking too, Barragan ability was too hard to beat. Other than Kido, a normal shinigami does not seem to have any chance. BUT things do not work they appear, this is all I can say.

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 02:19 PM
I can understand but the tournament brings something different. Not forcing you, never hurt to try, no?

Certainly not.


Shunsui overall has better chance of winning against Starrk. However, I doubt that in 1 vs. 1, he can win the battle with shikai only. Starrk's guns and wolves are enough to keep Shunsui away from him. Does anyone else think that the Shunsui's trying to, call it cheap shot or making use of opportunity, is contributed by the nature of his shikai?

Yes, especially wolves would definitely be troublesome. Yamamoto could burn them down and Aizen could dodge them by using his illusions but other than those, I didn't see any shikai or bankai ability that is 100% reliable against this technique. Shinji's Sakanade and Shunsui's Irooni might provide some resistance but I agree that Starrk would probably have better chances in most scenarios. Barragan's respira was equally dangerous but what Starrk had over Barragan was intelligence.


Had me thinking too, Barragan ability was too hard to beat. Other than Kido, a normal shinigami does not seem to have any chance. BUT things do not work they appear, this is all I can say.

Barragan submitted to Aizen, this is why I think Aizen was superior but Barragan certainly had what it takes to kill Aizen under certain circumstances.

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 02:21 PM
I would expect Aizen to be pretty much as proficient at Kido as Hachi, he had essentially attained the Shinigami limit in all areas of combat.

Plus, his analytical skills, as displayed when fighting Shinji (regardless of whether he used KS or not, he still worked out Sakanade with alarming speed) among others, would exceed Hachi's, so I wouldn't be surprised if Aizen could contrive a similar tactic to Hachi.

And of course if Aizen did manage to put Barragan under KS, he would have no fear of being hit by Respira, so he would have all the time he wanted to come up with a strategy.

So yeah, Aizen's intelligence combined with his Kido skills should be enough for Barragan, and KS would seal the deal.

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 02:27 PM
I really hate the "Hachi did it, so anyone with Kido skills can do it" argument. Hachi had viewed his ability from a safe distance, tested out different tactics several times, and it wasn't until he was desperate that he won by sheer luck.

Also, Hachi never said a word when he did the teleportation thing, it's not Kido, it has to be his Orihime-barrier-like ability, it even looks the same.

Barragan, Soi Fon, Shinji. Guys with such hax abilities are now viewed with far beyond simply underestimation just because Hachi got a lucky win that no one else would, and Aizen trolled a couple people....

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 02:34 PM
Actually it's not correct to compare Hisagi's win against Tousen with Shunsui against Starrk.
The Bleach rule is that the stronger person wins. Shunsui just wasn't in the mood during most of his fight against Starrk. His Zan gets in the mood when he gets in the mood. He didn't want to kill Starrk from the start, but when he realised that his comrades might be killed he decided to use his Shikai propperly.

Also about Barragan that might have taken Aizen... Guys Aizen stated that if you have considerably more Reiatsu than your oponent you can cancel your opponent's ability or at least lower its effect.
Also Aizen is proficient enough in Kidou to take Barragan with it.

Takahashi
Hachi saw this ability only once while Aizen gave this ability to Barragan.;)

Hystzen
April 06, 2011, 02:37 PM
while Aizen gave this ability to Barragan.;)

could say same about Ulq..but people still calim Aizen had no clue about his r2

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 02:39 PM
Hystzen
I actually can't understand how people can believe that Aizen didn't know the counter to their abilities when he himself gave them to every Espada.:) He also fully knew the extent of their abilities, hence all the numbers from 0 to 9 are fully justified.:)

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 02:39 PM
I'm saying anyone as proficient at Kido as Hachi with greater or equal analytical skills than Hachi (Aizen has proven himself in this regard I believe) would be likely to come to a similar conclusion to Hachi.

Barragan will probably boast "Anything my Respira touches is aged until it withers away completely blablabla" - I don't believe he could keep himself from blabbing about it, but that's just my opinion.

And as I said before, with KS, Barragan won't hit him with Respira or anything else, so Aizen will be able to come up with a plan at his leisure.

I wouldn't have voted for Tessai vs Barragan, but Aizen is a different story. Without KS it could go either way though, it depends whether Barragan keeps Aizen continually on the run or sits back and laughs at him while Aizen has a chance to analyze the situation.

As for Shinji, I wouldn't say anyone other than Aizen, Yama or Barragan could defeat him - Aizen due to his analytical skills and superior hax ability, Yama simply due to his raw power and all-engulfing flames, and Barragan due to his amazing resillience and (almost) unstoppable ability. I think he deserves his Semi-Final place, and I would probably say that Barragan deserves the other.

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 02:44 PM
I'm saying anyone as proficient at Kido as Hachi with greater or equal analytical skills than Hachi (Aizen has proven himself in this regard I believe) would be likely to come to a similar conclusion to Hachi.

Hachi DIDN'T use Kido though.
[hr]

Hystzen
I actually can't understand how people can believe that Aizen didn't know the counter to their abilities when he himself gave them to every Espada.:) He also fully knew the extent of their abilities, hence all the numbers from 0 to 9 are fully justified.:)

........The numbering is due to Reiatsu, and nothing else, has nothing to do with abilities.

Also, Aizen's counter is KS, it counters everything. Without it, he'd be a dead man.

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 02:45 PM
You don't think Aizen could have developed something similar himself, regardless of whether or not it is "conventional" Kido?

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 02:46 PM
I see no reason to believe that Aizen would have developed a Hollow ability, no. If Aizen were to ever beat Barragan, it would be from him KS-ing him and making him think he killed him, Barragan goes back to normal form, and Aizen stabs him in the face :P

I see no real way for Aizen to straight up beat Barragan.

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 02:56 PM
I see no reason to believe that Aizen would have developed a Hollow ability, no. If Aizen were to ever beat Barragan, it would be from him KS-ing him and making him think he killed him, Barragan goes back to normal form, and Aizen stabs him in the face :P

I see no real way for Aizen to straight up beat Barragan.

Does KS affect reiatsu sense? If it doesn't, Aizen's reiatsu won't disappear when he plays possum and Barragan will know Aizen is still alive. Just a thought. :amuse

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 02:59 PM
Takahashi
Aizen isn't only about KS and it was firmly stated by the manga. He is the best in every Shinigami Art aside from Yama, so of course he would take Barragan, Starrk and Yami even without his illusions. At least in one on one fight.
Actually he only used illusions when he was fighting more than two Captain level opponents.

AlB
April 06, 2011, 03:03 PM
Does KS affect reiatsu sense? If it doesn't, Aizen's reiatsu won't disappear when he plays possum and Barragan will know Aizen is still alive. Just a thought. :amuse

And a dozen of Vizards and Captains would simply close their eyes during battle and act simply on their reiatsu sense. Aizen would have been sandwiched without Yamamoto's crazy-ass kamikadze tech.
KS would have been utterly useless :)

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 03:03 PM
Takahashi
Aizen isn't only about KS and it was firmly stated by the manga. He is the best in every Shinigami Art aside from Yama, so of course he would take Barragan, Starrk and Yami even without his illusions. At least in one on one fight.
Actually he only used illusions when he was fighting more than two Captain level opponents.

What? You think he could take on Barragan WITHOUT KS? Please explain.

AlB
April 06, 2011, 03:06 PM
^Dissipate Respira with reiatsu?
We are talking about a guy who has your captain-level bankais for lunch lol.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 06, 2011, 03:09 PM
Takahashi
Yes, I do believe it.:) You said that Aizen gave the numbers according to Reiatsu level. And Aizen believed that the more Reiatsu you have the stronger you are, so for him the strongest was Yami in his released state.
Hence Aizen has more Reiatsu than Barragan and has a great level of Kidou that will give him posibility to use such thing as Black Coffin on Barragan. I do believe that it would be one hit KO and even if it wouldn't it would make an opening for Aizen to slice his head.

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 03:11 PM
And a dozen of Vizards and Captains would simply close their eyes during battle and act simply on their reiatsu sense.
If that was the case KS would have been utterly useless :)

If only things were that simple. :D

I think the reiatsu sense doesn't give the exact location of somebody but it helps understand whether this person is around or not. Yamamoto managed to sense the reiatsu of Aizen's zanpakuto, KS doesn't hide Aizen's reiatsu, this reiatsu can be used to detect whether Aizen is dead or alive but I don't think it will be very useful in battle unless your reiatsu sense is ultra-sharp.

Takahashi
April 06, 2011, 03:12 PM
..............Okay

Well, done with this argument if that's the logic :P

AlB
April 06, 2011, 03:30 PM
If only things were that simple. :D

I think the reiatsu sense doesn't give the exact location of somebody but it helps understand whether this person is around or not. Yamamoto managed to sense the reiatsu of Aizen's zanpakuto, KS doesn't hide Aizen's reiatsu, this reiatsu can be used to detect whether Aizen is dead or alive but I don't think it will be very useful in battle unless your reiatsu sense is ultra-sharp.

I'll try to explain. All shinigami possess six senses. 5 standard human senses + reiatsu sense. Every dumb shinigami kid out there, with a sole exception of Kenpachi, is able to sense and track reiatsu around them, given proper training, naturally. Even Ichigo, who lacks even most elementary shinigami training, can track people based on their reiatsu as was proven many times in manga. My point is, that unless a target is an omnitsukido member, tracking them down is a piece of cake for guys around average captain level.

Aizen stated that KS affected all senses, which, in terms of shinigami, includes the sense of reiatsu. To support his claim he completely fooled Hitsugaya and Komamura back in SS. The dudes were on full alert and they are experienced captains, not some amateurs. Furthermore, another proof that Aizen can hide reiatsu with KS was his performance against last 4 captains on the battlefield. Alright, I understand that Soifon's, Shinji's and Hitsu's battle capibilities are not widely considered much above ordinary, but what about Shunsui Kyoraku? One of the oldest captains out there?

The only reason Yamamoto could get hold of KS's reiatsu because it has pierced him. That means, that you can tune in on sword's reiatsu when and only when it comes in physical contact with you. You are still under the hypnosis, but you, at least, know whether the metal in your stomach is real or not. That's as far as it goes dude. Everything is over once the blade leaves your body - you're back in the dark, at the mercy of capacity of Aizen's popcorn box. We have seen something like that haven't we? The only thing that Aizen percepted correctly when fighting Shinji was the place that Sakanade cut him in. Did anything change after that? Nope, Aizen was still under Sakanade's effects and would have been omfgpwnzed by Shinji had he not been Aizen ;) Granted, that was a different Zan, but I am simply using that as a parallel example.

Miyagi
April 06, 2011, 04:12 PM
^Aizen said "KS controls five senses", he never mentioned reiatsu sense:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html

I always thought KS didn't control reiatsu sense, I may be wrong though, what do other people think?

AlB
April 06, 2011, 04:36 PM
^He simply listed several of aspects. And his feats stand as a valid proof that KS controls the sens of reiatsu.
[hr]
Also, something is extremely wrong with the translation. I mean, what's the difference between form and shape in that context :blink

Random101
April 06, 2011, 04:50 PM
If it didn't control reiatsu sense to some degree, then fundamentally it would be utterly worthless in a fight. Granted Yamamoto managed to actually use 'sensing' to his advantage, but you'll note that this only specifically worked when it was inside him, likely because to be perfectly honest the dude has had THOUSANDS of years experience in battles, and given his sheer number of scars has actually used them.

Granted, Reiatsu sensing is a complete crapshoot anyway, but yeah, if it actually worked that would have been the first thing virtually anyone tried to try and counter. Shinji especially, having 100 years and a massive grudge to think that up with knowledge on the parameters of the ability no less, and ultimately botching it hard when the chips fell down along with the rest of them.

As for everyone with Kido being able to do what Hachi did... eh, Teleportation isn't a conventional Kido. I said Tessai can do it because he literally can, he's used a teleportation ability in canon with a larger scale, degree of accuracy, and especially range than Hachi's which also had similar severing mechanics, so overall I rate his teleportation potential higher, particularly since he apparently buffs it with time stopping. Aizen however would have to prove it first.

Which isn't to say he can't win, KS is hax and Unlike Barragon he's actually intelligent, which counts for a lot. Ultimately though Barragon if he's playing it smart would crush him. Respiera's omnidirectional, he can release that attack in literally all directions around him. You either have to overpower it with something to get through that, Ala Soifon's bankai being compressed or potentially Starrk blasting him to hell, have something that can at least be argued to be resistant or better still completely unaffected, ala high level kido barriers enforced with a backchant, some kind of element like Ice that could be argued to not age in some capacity, or Starrk's regenerating wolves, or ultimately use teleportation.

Aizen's proven none of the above. In fact, the nature of KS screws him over, as he's reduced entirely to a sword and what little Kido he's shown, most of which is either too weak (or at least not spammable enough to get through) or too close range (his only level 90). Barragon with knowledge of KS and not being an utter moron leaves Aizen with virtually no way to even get close to begin to put up any kind of offensive.

El Samurai Guapo
April 06, 2011, 05:18 PM
Barragan can't keep throwing out respira forever though. Worst case scenario Aizen follows him home to Las Noches, waits until the dude falls asleep, then takes his skull off with his katana.

Random101
April 06, 2011, 05:29 PM
I saw no limit hinted at, and he appears to always have the aura around him most of the time. While I doubt he can just keep spamming forever, keeping it up within a range that matters is entirely possible.

Hystzen
April 06, 2011, 05:30 PM
it will have limit..like starrk would have a limit on ceros but defo his wolves..can only break you soul so many times

En Yang Ji
April 06, 2011, 06:15 PM
If barragan could kill Aizen he would have killed him before.

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 07:32 PM
If barragan could kill Aizen he would have killed him before.
Except he got caught in KS the moment he started to get pissed off by baragan

LucyBenard
April 06, 2011, 07:57 PM
IMO, Aizen can take on any captain without KS save Yamamoto. As we have already witnessed in the manga.

Barragan can kill Aizen.

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 09:45 PM
I don't believe KS controls Reiatsu sensing - it wouldn't be much of a hinderance though, since I believe sensing Reiatsu to be pretty much limited to detecting someone's presence, and maybe having a ballpark estimate of their actual position if the user has honed it particularly well, but being useful it in a fight against an opponent using Shunpo? No chance. I don't believe it is a subsititue for sight like say, a sonar wave, at all, so Aizen's still safe regardless of whether KS can manipulate Reiatsu sensing (unless he allows himself to get caught ofc, which he wouldn't under normal circumstances).

Raizen
April 06, 2011, 10:26 PM
KS is said to control all senses. And to shinigamis, reiatsu sensing is a sense.
High class shinigami has used reiatsu sensing many times (ie shunsui sensing youruichi, byakuya sensing rukia, etc). So if KS didn't affect that, it wouldn't be complete hypnosis

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 10:57 PM
Correction - all 5 senses (http://www.mangareader.net/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html). He also states it here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-43577-12/bleach/chapter-387.html).

Unless you consider Reiatsu sensing to be a subcategory of one of the 5 conventional senses, we have no reason to believe that he can control Reiatsu sensing.

Also here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-10/bleach/chapter-393.html) it is implied that it is beyond the abilities of KS to control the sensing of Reiatsu.

Random101
April 06, 2011, 10:58 PM
I don't believe KS controls Reiatsu sensing - it wouldn't be much of a hinderance though, since I believe sensing Reiatsu to be pretty much limited to detecting someone's presence, and maybe having a ballpark estimate of their actual position if the user has honed it particularly well, but being useful it in a fight against an opponent using Shunpo? No chance. I don't believe it is a subsititue for sight like say, a sonar wave, at all, so Aizen's still safe regardless of whether KS can manipulate Reiatsu sensing (unless he allows himself to get caught ofc, which he wouldn't under normal circumstances).
While a decent guess, I point you to Tousen. Despite being blind he had perfect knowledge of where a person was, regardless of them not moving, standing in the air, or what have you. So none of his other senses would work there. None save Reiatsu anyway.

ShootToKill
April 06, 2011, 11:08 PM
While a decent guess, I point you to Tousen. Despite being blind he had perfect knowledge of where a person was, regardless of them not moving, standing in the air, or what have you. So none of his other senses would work there. None save Reiatsu anyway.
That is a good point, but it is likely that he developed this over the (centuries?) many years that he has had to live without sight, and honed this ability to such an extent that it is a substitute for his sight, but only through living in that way throughout his entire life. I believe that Tousen is a special case, and it has taken an immense amount of time for him to develop this ability, more time than even a Shinigami master such as Aizen would choose to devote to honing such an ability.

I think that my previous post is a reasonably good indication that KS doesn't control Reiatsu sensing, in which case, unless we now believe KS to be practically useless :p then Shinigami with the exception of Tousen do not have a sufficiently precise Reiatsu sensing ability for it to be applicable in battle.

LucyBenard
April 07, 2011, 12:09 AM
:cheerbunny Aizen wins by a 90 to 28 votes margin

Aizen vs. Yamamoto in the final, as many have predicted.

Tsukisama
April 07, 2011, 12:14 AM
Aizen and Team Big Gunz win! The margins for Aizen vs Shinji were quite large, whereas Team Big Gunz had a rougher go. What do you think of the results? Share your thoughts.

The finals are finally here! Check them all out: Yamamoto vs Aizen (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69161), Team Big Gunz vs Team Toxic Arrow (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69163), Shunsui vs Shinji (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69162), and Team Chocolate Love vs Team Magic Muscles (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69164)! :whoabunny

Hystzen
April 08, 2011, 09:52 AM
We are nearing the end so lets end without insulting each other

so il ask

what has been everybody's favorite match up, it could be the debate or just characters you liked..which been your favorite round ?

cracker
April 08, 2011, 10:51 AM
While a decent guess, I point you to Tousen. Despite being blind he had perfect knowledge of where a person was, regardless of them not moving, standing in the air, or what have you. So none of his other senses would work there. None save Reiatsu anyway.

Kubo killed the dude that was immune to two of the most broken abilities in bleachverse...Sakanade and KS

AlB
April 09, 2011, 03:52 AM
We are nearing the end so lets end without insulting each other

so il ask

what has been everybody's favorite match up, it could be the debate or just characters you liked..which been your favorite round ?

Shunsui vs Shinji
Shunsui vs Gin
Lisa vs Renji

Those were the ones I enjoyed most :)
What about you Hyst?

Omiem
April 09, 2011, 10:51 PM
Mine would be,

Yoruichi vs Byakuya
Yoruichi vs Shunsui
Soifon vs Tousen

MonsterEnvy
April 09, 2011, 10:58 PM
My least favorite was Starrk vs Ichigo because Ichigo Winning was BS

Omiem
April 10, 2011, 12:19 AM
My least favorite was Barragan vs Tessai. Still can't believe that Barragan lost to someone who lacked substantial feats.

Hystzen
April 10, 2011, 12:21 PM
Shunsui vs Shinji
Shunsui vs Gin
Lisa vs Renji

Those were the ones I enjoyed most :)
What about you Hyst?

Yoruichi vs Byakuya easily just the stuff people claiming what shunko can do it can elimate kido,bankais everything was absurd as no manga proof loved it.

Shunsui vs Gin i agree i just didnt like how people see word shunsui and say he win because IMO it be close a Gin is dangerous in cqc and range

Omiem
April 10, 2011, 12:24 PM
Yoruichi vs Byakuya easily just the stuff people claiming what shunko can do it can elimate kido,bankais everything was absurd as no manga proof loved it.
Shunko canceling out Kidou has already been proven, and I don't recall anyone saying that it could cancel out Byakuya's Bankai. Only people saying that it could knock those petals away or something.

Mauricio Raphael
April 10, 2011, 02:36 PM
I think one of my favorite matches in this tournament was Yoruichi vs. Lisa: the only match to have one combatant to receive 100% of the votes!

One of the worst for me was also Barragan vs. Tessai. This tournament would have definitely more interesting if Barragan been allowed to progress...

Takahashi
April 10, 2011, 05:08 PM
Yoruichi vs Byakuya easily just the stuff people claiming what shunko can do it can elimate kido,bankais everything was absurd as no manga proof loved it.

Yeah, I was particularly disappointed in that one too. Although still, Barragan losing in the first round twice? Beyond ridiculous.


Shunsui vs Gin i agree i just didnt like how people see word shunsui and say he win because IMO it be close a Gin is dangerous in cqc and range

It was at least a close fight though, I think both sides had good arguments, in fact I can't even remember who I ended up voting for...

cracker
April 11, 2011, 09:57 AM
That Yourichi vs Byakuya thread was hilarious (barefist (no Yama) trumps bankai lol)...but I doubt it would have changed Shunsui reaching semis

Soon this tourney will be over and it will be back to the ole' battle threads...

Omiem
April 11, 2011, 02:27 PM
That Yourichi vs Byakuya thread was hilarious (barefist (no Yama) trumps bankai lol)...but I doubt it would have changed Shunsui reaching semis

Soon this tourney will be over and it will be back to the ole' battle threads...
*Sigh* It's Shunko, not barefist.

g0dzax
April 11, 2011, 02:57 PM
This tournament was so full of speculation,and many fights were both humorous,and exasperating(eg Yoruichi vs Byakuya,Tessai vs Barragan,Ichigo vs Stark,etc).I know everyone's got their own opinions,but still ignoring manga canon facts and speculating too much just isn't right,in my humble opinion.The fights should have been fought with more images and facts,sentences from the manga.Still,it was great up until this point.Really curious to see the tournament champion(at least Kyouraku vs Shinji,Yama vs Aizen are very close,interesting,vey debated and not so much speculated fights).

cracker
April 11, 2011, 03:24 PM
*Sigh* It's Shunko, not barefist.

I know what I was referring don't put words in my mouth, if I was referring to Shunko I would have said such...

Yourichi uses mostly barefist (hands) to fight, to think that she'd trump Byakuya and his bankai with that is hilarious, yeah she has Shunko big whoop...an attack whose two feats where neutralizing another Shunko attack and hitting a cocoon Aizen...

All factors considered she should have never won that fight but w/e man...its all gone now anyway

Tsukisama
April 12, 2011, 12:10 AM
The dust has settled, and we now know who stands at the top!

Champion Bracket

First Place: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni
Second Place: Aizen Sōsuke
Third Place: Kyōraku Shunsui
Fourth Place: Hirako Shinji


Loser Bracket

First Place: Team Big Gunz
Second Place: Team Toxic Arrow
Third Place: Team Magic Muscles
Fourth Place: Team Chocolate Love
:confetti

The only large margin seems to have been Team Big Gunz vs Team Toxic Arrow. The closest margin, votes differing only by 1 vote, was the match for third place in the loser bracket. The champion bracket finals were all reasonably close too.

So, what do you think? Are you happy with the results? Based on your predictions from the beginning of this tournament, were you anywhere close? Please share your thoughts on these questions as well as any final thoughts you may have about this tournament (highlights, lowlights, comments, suggestions, etc.). :hbunny

With all that said, here's what's going to happen henceforth. There will be a final update to the bracket as well as a few other things for the grand finale of the tournament. El Campo shall return to you shortly (within the next 24 hours or so), but please continue to check the tournament section to see how it ends! ;)

El Samurai Guapo
April 12, 2011, 12:31 AM
Yamamoto winning was obviously the safest bet in the world. No surprise there.

Also no surprise that his favorite pupil would take third place. I found it funny that multiple posters claimed Shinji only got as far as he did because of overhype. Really, like Shunsui himself isn't overhyped? Recall he barreled through Yoruichi, the only character to win a match with 100% of the votes, as well as Gin—another relatively popular character. Both of whom should have won honestly. Especially Gin, one of the best bankai loses to a gimmicky shikai? I was more annoyed by that than anything else in the tourny. There were only roughly 5 posters who supported Shunsui in the Shinji thread, yet he got 66 votes? The guy is favored by more random forum members than bloody Ichigo.

shuha27
April 12, 2011, 12:36 AM
I totally agree. Everything else I seen coming but Shunsui winning. I have no idea where all those votes came from while there was only a few people arguing for Shunsui. A lot of these fights were based on popularity. I wish people would have thought about who would win instead of voting for who they like better. Oh well >.<

ShootToKill
April 12, 2011, 12:57 AM
I was honestly expecting Shinji to win as he beat fan favorites Kenpachi and Ichigo, and Shunsui didn't really have anything on him that they didn't.

What struck me was that Yama vs Aizen had 48 more votes than Shinji vs Shunsui despite the latter having way more posts... my guess is that they were mostly "Yama is teh strongest!!! No one can beat Yama" votes :D

Oh well, at least Starrk won :D

Exodi
April 12, 2011, 01:18 AM
I will freely admit that I voted for Shunsui because I think he is cooler, lol.
It was really hard to decide in the Shunsui vs. Shinji fight~

Waking_Dreamer
April 12, 2011, 01:48 AM
I didnt think that a match victory would be decided by 1 vote, but among the final matches it did...

thornofcarrion
April 12, 2011, 01:58 AM
Closest one we had. Apart from the finals, do you guys find any unexpected entry(ies) in quarter finals and semi-finals?

Takahashi
April 12, 2011, 02:14 AM
Wow, Shunsui beat Shinji? That's surprising.

If we're talking about overhype though, jesus, Tessai takes the cake for doing basically nothing and crushing the competition based on his title.

Big Gunz beat Toxic Arrow, no real surprise, but I had fun defending Mayuri

Yama and Aizen didn't really surprise me. However, I have to question if people really understand what "complete control of the five senses" means.... Many seemed to attribute it as merely an optical illusion, which is only a small piece of its capabilities.

Darkp
April 12, 2011, 02:42 AM
Yama and Aizen didn't really surprise me. However, I have to question if people really understand what "complete control of the five senses" means.... Many seemed to attribute it as merely an optical illusion, which is only a small piece of its capabilities.

I find that statement " complete control of five senses" another Aizen's void claim , like he claimed Uruhara exilled for gigai's or just BS ing like he claimed " manipulated and controlled ichigo's and others life completely" but it was not true either . We did never see that power at manga , that power was limited , could not make people's kill theirself, it did never manipulate the area and other stuff , he just used that power to manipulate bodies .

Miyagi
April 12, 2011, 04:17 AM
I've just seen the results, Shunsui is third place. :cheerbunny

It was a very close fight, many people said they had a hard time deciding the winner, I'm glad Shunsui had the slight edge at the end. :D

The result of the final is no surprise though. People had already said that Yamamoto would win before the tournament started. Nevertheless there were some good arguments in favor of Aizen which made the match-up a bit more balanced.

About Aizen's flawless absolute hypnosis, I believe it was a boast. Every character boasts about his or her own powers and IMHO Aizen is no exception. I think the manga gives more than enough circumstantial evidence that Aizen's KS had its limits.

- Aizen has seeked more power all his life. If KS makes strength irrelevant, why would Aizen need more power? It would make no changes in the way he had been defeating his opponents. LOL

- Aizen didn't kill Yamamoto in SS arc and he made a modded arrancar to defeat him in FKT. He said Yamamoto and his RJ would likely defeat him if he didn't use WW to seal RJ. IMHO this is more than enough evidence that KS's absolute hypnosis is not ..... absolute in the sense people understand it.

- Aizen said he had never thought he was stronger than the combined power of his espada. If he thought the espada couldn't resist KS's flawless power in any viable way, would he say something like that?

- Gin said that even though KS had a scary ability, what made Aizen really scary was his strength without KS. Gin outright said that KS wouldn't be that dangerous in the hands of weak shinigami.

- Aizen used KS like Kage Bunshin and Henge: Leave a clone to distract your opponents and take advantage of the distraction, these are ninja techniques. LOL He has never made people suffer intense pain or whatnot. He didn't make anyone deaf or blind. Aizen's clones were flawless, IMHO this is what absolute control of five senses means. You were unable to distinguish the clone from the original using your five senses.

I don't underestimate Aizen's abilities, IMHO Kage Bunshin and Henge are possibly in Top 5 of the most hax abilities if they are used properly. Itachi can use Amaterasu and waste his chakra to burn Naruto but it may turn out that it was just a Kage Bunshin. How can you fight that? LOL

Ok, where is my Naruto tournament? :D

HaouLelouch
April 12, 2011, 05:31 AM
I doubt Aizen was boasting when he said Kyoka Suigetsu gives complete hypnosis.

I mean, Unohana, who is perhaps the second most powerful captain (excluding Aizen) and is definitely the most skilled healer, was only able to detect something slightly off with Aizen's illusionary corpse.

I also think Shunsui should have lost to Gin. Gin has one of the most deadly, if not the most deadly, Bankai up to date (he needs one hit to kill), whereas Shunsui's shikai is an unknown variable. if Shunsui didn't have Ukitake to save his ass from Stark's cero metralletta or have Love and Rose to fight him long enough to give him an opening+get his zanpakuto in the correct mode, he would definitely have lost to Stark on shikai alone. I would have put Gin above Stark despite Stark having most likely higher speed than Shunsui (and therefore, higher chances of dodging Kamishini no Yari), again, because Gin only needs one hit to kill. therefore I don't think Shunsui stands much of a chance against Gin.

Also Ichigo should have lost to Stark. his 'new' mask after fighting Ulquiorra can last about 5 seconds which is not enough to land a powerful enough hit on Stark to finish him, especially considering Stark is one of the most deadly long ranged fighters, it will be difficult for Ichigo to get anywhere near him (Aizen already demonstrated how effective getsuga tensho is at long distances). Gin also shattered Ichigo's mask with little effort and was basically toying with him. people didn't seem to understand Ichigo cannot get to ichigonator mode any time he wants.

cracker
April 12, 2011, 07:46 AM
When is Team Chocolate Love gonna get a break? Seriously they lost to Team Magic Muscles...Tessai and Chad, Chad wth...Goes to show that one vote does make a huge difference

Yama won, no surprise there. But Shinji should have won over Shunsui, for everything shown of Shunsui so far Shinji wins far more scenarios...but w/e its done and gone...

SaintSheik
April 12, 2011, 07:58 AM
Hype votes aside, I would say this tournament was a lot of fun. At the very least, it laid out the blueprint for tournaments to come. Yama reigns :amuse Thanks a lot for putting this all together, it was a blast.

Broken_Wing
April 12, 2011, 10:17 AM
When is Team Chocolate Love gonna get a break? Seriously they lost to Team Magic Muscles...Tessai and Chad, Chad wth...Goes to show that one vote does make a huge difference.

Well it goes to show people cant predict everything. Many were confident to see Chocolate Love in the finals before the first round of the Team Tourny had even finished...

Jorge D. Dragon
April 12, 2011, 10:37 AM
The Tournament was rather funny and I hope that the upcoming Naruto Tournament will be at least at this level.;)

About hype or not, but still I'd say that the first three places were rather logical according to Databook and manga info, aside from people's hype.

Even though I'd say that I expected Isshin to get higher that he got.:)

cracker
April 12, 2011, 10:54 AM
I've just seen the results, Shunsui is third place. :cheerbunny

It was a very close fight, many people said they had a hard time deciding the winner, I'm glad Shunsui had the slight edge at the end. :D

The result of the final is no surprise though. People had already said that Yamamoto would win before the tournament started. Nevertheless there were some good arguments in favor of Aizen which made the match-up a bit more balanced.

About Aizen's flawless absolute hypnosis, I believe it was a boast. Every character boasts about his or her own powers and IMHO Aizen is no exception. I think the manga gives more than enough circumstantial evidence that Aizen's KS had its limits.

- Aizen has seeked more power all his life. If KS makes strength irrelevant, why would Aizen need more power? It would make no changes in the way he had been defeating his opponents. LOL

- Aizen didn't kill Yamamoto in SS arc and he made a modded arrancar to defeat him in FKT. He said Yamamoto and his RJ would likely defeat him if he didn't use WW to seal RJ. IMHO this is more than enough evidence that KS's absolute hypnosis is not ..... absolute in the sense people understand it.

- Aizen said he had never thought he was stronger than the combined power of his espada. If he thought the espada couldn't resist KS's flawless power in any viable way, would he say something like that?

- Gin said that even though KS had a scary ability, what made Aizen really scary was his strength without KS. Gin outright said that KS wouldn't be that dangerous in the hands of weak shinigami.

- Aizen used KS like Kage Bunshin and Henge: Leave a clone to distract your opponents and take advantage of the distraction, these are ninja techniques. LOL He has never made people suffer intense pain or whatnot. He didn't make anyone deaf or blind. Aizen's clones were flawless, IMHO this is what absolute control of five senses means. You were unable to distinguish the clone from the original using your five senses.

I don't underestimate Aizen's abilities, IMHO Kage Bunshin and Henge are possibly in Top 5 of the most hax abilities if they are used properly. Itachi can use Amaterasu and waste his chakra to burn Naruto but it may turn out that it was just a Kage Bunshin. How can you fight that? LOL

Ok, where is my Naruto tournament? :D

Aizen wanted to transcend to godhood. To have abilities that far exceeded everyone else's. He apparently wanted powers that were highly destructive...you know, being able to level miles and miles of landscape with kidou spells or a simple swing of his sword. This idea is supported by dialogue exchanged between him and Ichigo during their most recent (final???) bout. He was even opted to use teleportation over shunpo likely in his mind the ability was greater and fitting for a god.

Im surprised he used kidou though, since it was of his old life (shinigami) but I figure the idea of manipulating gravity and space was befitting to a god and kidou was simply a means to an end.

I like your take of KS, seems like a reasonable assumption especially considering that was the only capacity we've seen it used in, to provide a clone.

Kage Bunshin and Henge aren't hax abilities though, at least not in my view...maybe its because I'm familiar with Marvel comics a simple clone technique isn't saying much to reality warping, time travel, mind control, gravity manipulation, all forms of energy manipulation, organic matter manipulation etc

thornofcarrion
April 12, 2011, 11:02 AM
My disappointment would be, Isshin and Urahara didn't make it to the end. I can understand people didn't vote for them because of not seeing them enough.

AlB
April 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
Big thanks to Arrogance, igotthegoods, thornofcarrion, Tsukisama, Vintagemistakes (I hope I didn't forget anyone) for organizing this tournament and wasting their time to manage it :tem!

Big thanks to everyone who participated in discussions! It's been a blast guys!

Raizen
April 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
WOooHOOOOooo Yama and shunsui wins!!!
Phew, i'm glad some people understands the manga :3c

Excited for the naruto one, hopefully there will be some good discussions

AlB
April 12, 2011, 11:11 AM
WOooHOOOOooo Yama and shunsui wins!!!
Phew, i'm glad some people understands the manga :3c

Excited for the naruto one, hopefully there will be some good discussions

We don't need any discussion there dude. Pain-sama RULEZ! :worship2 :worship2

Raizen
April 12, 2011, 11:17 AM
We don't need any discussion there dude. Pain-sama RULEZ! :worship2 :worship2
Haha but they are nerfing pein so... i guess we will see.
Although I must say i am not looking forward to arguing against the uchiha-fans. Done too much of that already.

But about the bleach tournament, people are saying shunsui won only because of his fans... acutally he had much better feats than shinji. And last i checked, shinji is more popular that mr shunsui... excuses excuses :3c

Tsukisama
April 12, 2011, 11:37 AM
Big thanks to Arrogance, igotthegoods, thornofcarrion, Tsukisama (I hope I didn't forget anyone) for organizing this tournament and wasting their time to manage it :tem!

Big thanks to everyone who participated in discussions! It's been a blast guys!

Yes, you are forgetting someone: vintagemistakes! He has been the one behind all of the tournament graphics (making the banners and brackets). He has been a tremendous help, coming to our rescue at our time of need and doing us splendid service. :hbunny

AlB
April 12, 2011, 11:39 AM
Yes, you are forgetting someone: vintagemistakes! He has been the one behind all of the tournament graphics (making the banners and brackets). He has been a tremendous help, coming to our rescue at our time of need and doing us splendid service. :hbunny

DAMN

:ck

Big thanks to Vinatgemistakes too!! Editing the post right now, Sorry vinty !!

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 12, 2011, 11:46 AM
My disappointment would be, Isshin and Urahara didn't make it to the end. I can understand people didn't vote for them because of not seeing them enough.

I agree with this ^^^

But overall I'd say the final results are close to what I would expect which is that Yama is the strongest while Aizen is only second best lol.:amuse

And also that Shunsui is also a beast.:D

Thanks towards all the staff who made this awesome tournament posible!

thornofcarrion
April 12, 2011, 11:47 AM
Big thanks to Arrogance, igotthegoods, thornofcarrion, Tsukisama (I hope I didn't forget anyone) for organizing this tournament and wasting their time to manage it :tem!

Big thanks to everyone who participated in discussions! It's been a blast guys!

I am glad you enjoyed it. Vintagemistakes was the one who did all those awesome looking banners. Of course, many members contributed and provided us the art. We are thankful to each and every member who participated. Like we said in the start, we arranged this tournament, and the ones to follow, for our members.

igotthegoods
April 12, 2011, 12:25 PM
I'll echo the thanks from the other staff members as well. Thanks to everyone for their participation and contributions! I really hope you all had a fun with the tournament. The staff enjoyed planning it for you. :amuse

But, of course, the staff isn't perfect and there are spots where things probably could've been improved (for example... maybe we should've left out some of the strongest characters?) It was our first go at organizing a tournament in such a large section so, we really do appreciate your honest and constructive feedback here.

Also, El Campo will reopen very shortly, so be on the lookout for that. ;)

Thanks again, everyone! :hug

leshrak
April 12, 2011, 02:55 PM
Great Tounament! I had a lots of fun these past weeks thanks to this tounament, so many thanks for everyone who worked hard organizating it!!!

I'm also very happy with the results! Yama FTW!!!

Hystzen
April 12, 2011, 03:07 PM
:fail choc love lost to tessai

tessai is number on troller in this tournament talk about win by hype

yamma won no shock everybody called it when we saw he was on the list.

good tournament guys and thanks mods for putting this up

also thanks to everybody who contributed fan art

Miyagi
April 12, 2011, 03:31 PM
Kage Bunshin and Henge aren't hax abilities though, at least not in my view...maybe its because I'm familiar with Marvel comics a simple clone technique isn't saying much to reality warping, time travel, mind control, gravity manipulation, all forms of energy manipulation, organic matter manipulation etc

Marvel super powers are in a class of their own, I think Galactus can defeat all characters of Naruto, Bleach and One Piece combined by himself. :D

IMHO Kage Bunshin and Henge is a deadly combo. If I were Naruto, I would never go to the battlefield, I would send my clones and confuse the hell out of the enemy using henge on my clones. You can trick Kakuzu into believing Hidan defeated Shikamaru and came back to help. :D Or transform your clones to bugs and blow them up using exploding tags when the enemy is near them. LOL


I'll echo the thanks from the other staff members as well. Thanks to everyone for their participation and contributions! I really hope you all had a fun with the tournament. The staff enjoyed planning it for you. :amuse

Although I joined the forum in the late stages, I enjoyed the discussions and had fun. Thanks a lot to you and all other staff members for organizing such a great tournament.

:yourock

Katz
April 12, 2011, 09:39 PM
I'm actually shocked that Aizen didn't get more votes (I expected Yama to win ofc) but I thought it'd be close like a margin of 15-20 votes....oh well better luck next year Aizen

kkck
April 12, 2011, 10:19 PM
OMFGOOOOOODDDDDDD! Unbelievable, Yamamoto was first and aizen second!

Lol, who here did not see that one coming? I feel that knowing who were so obviously the strongest around made the result of the tournament rather anticlimatic. In turn I did enjoy the discussion in a few threads, in particular the aizen vs yama and shinji vs kyoraku. Even if we had included aizen's evolution and ichigo's own ultimate form the results would have still been rather obvious....

cloudo
April 13, 2011, 12:49 AM
Hopefully we'll see more abilties or characters to do another tournament sometime in the (near) future. Glad Shunsui came in 3rd. I believe it's deserved, and one on one, I feel he can stand with anyone besides Aizen (KS) and Yama.

Snake_Cowboy
April 13, 2011, 05:02 AM
And I guess that's the tournament! Can't say I'm surprised with the results, though.;) But I am rather pleased with them.

For someone not as active around MangaHelpers, I have to say I really enjoyed this Bleach Tournament!:amuse My thanks to the mods and everyone else that helped set this up and, of course, to everyone participating in the discussions! :D

I, for one, can't wait for another Bleach Tournament, though I suppose it would be best to wait a bit longer so that newer characters can be included as well. With any luck, maybe we'll have some characters from Zero Squad in addition to the Fullbringers to add to the roster next time. I think this tournament was also useful as sort of a 'test run', as it highlighted some issues as well, most notably the massive differences in power levels (I'm looking at you, Yama) and inconsistent performances (like Ichigo and his Hollow form).

I agree that, as others have suggested, it would be best for the next tournament to be divided into tiers. Perhaps a low tier for anyone below captain-level, a mid tier for low to mid-captain levels and a high tier for the powerhouses (like Yama and Aizen).

As for my favourite match in this tournament, I'm having difficulty deciding, but stuff like Gin VS Kyouraku, Ulquiorra VS Wonderweiss, Halibel VS Kenpachi, Ichigo VS Stark and Byakuya VS Yoruichi were pretty fun (even if I didn't always agree with the results). All the team-matches were very enjoyable as well. If I had to call my top 2, though, it would probably be Yamamoto VS Aizen and Kyouraku VS Shinji. Especially the latter is a match I would really like to see.:amuse

My biggest disappointments, though, are far easier to name. Barragan losing in his first round, not once but twice, just boggled my mind. Same goes for Ichigo defeating Stark, Byakuya losing to Yoruichi and the complete overhype of Tessai. Freaking hell, Chocolate Love (one of the deadliest combinations in the Loser Bracket) being defeated by Magic Muscles? Come on.

However, all in all, this tournament was awesome.:amuse

Hystzen
April 13, 2011, 05:09 AM
Next wont be a year from now it be awhile before get a 2nd tournament.

even then i believe we should have brackets like Naruto tournament has low level for VCs, High for captain levels..it would stop those matches where the high level wins so much you cant defend the low level opponent

Goral
April 13, 2011, 05:59 AM
Thanks to everyone who organized and actively participated in this tournament. What me surprised the most however was the number of people that got banned :]. "Better stay quiet and look like an idiot than to speak and resolve all doubts".

Broken_Wing
April 13, 2011, 06:35 AM
Great Tournement.

Just to point out however, now that the tournament is over doesnt meant people need to leave the Bleach section till the next one comes around. The original bleach battle section is open again, and there still a lot of great battle threads to read and participate in.

You can even create your own matchups that you perhaps sorely wanted to see take place in the tourney but never happened...so check that place out...

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 13, 2011, 01:29 PM
And I guess that's the tournament! Can't say I'm surprised with the results, though.;) But I am rather pleased with them.

For someone not as active around MangaHelpers, I have to say I really enjoyed this Bleach Tournament!:amuse My thanks to the mods and everyone else that helped set this up and, of course, to everyone participating in the discussions! :D

I, for one, can't wait for another Bleach Tournament, though I suppose it would be best to wait a bit longer so that newer characters can be included as well. With any luck, maybe we'll have some characters from Zero Squad in addition to the Fullbringers to add to the roster next time. I think this tournament was also useful as sort of a 'test run', as it highlighted some issues as well, most notably the massive differences in power levels (I'm looking at you, Yama) and inconsistent performances (like Ichigo and his Hollow form).

I agree that, as others have suggested, it would be best for the next tournament to be divided into tiers. Perhaps a low tier for anyone below captain-level, a mid tier for low to mid-captain levels and a high tier for the powerhouses (like Yama and Aizen).

As for my favourite match in this tournament, I'm having difficulty deciding, but stuff like Gin VS Kyouraku, Ulquiorra VS Wonderweiss, Halibel VS Kenpachi, Ichigo VS Stark and Byakuya VS Yoruichi were pretty fun (even if I didn't always agree with the results). All the team-matches were very enjoyable as well. If I had to call my top 2, though, it would probably be Yamamoto VS Aizen and Kyouraku VS Shinji. Especially the latter is a match I would really like to see.:amuse

My biggest disappointments, though, are far easier to name. Barragan losing in his first round, not once but twice, just boggled my mind. Same goes for Ichigo defeating Stark, Byakuya losing to Yoruichi and the complete overhype of Tessai. Freaking hell, Chocolate Love (one of the deadliest combinations in the Loser Bracket) being defeated by Magic Muscles? Come on.

However, all in all, this tournament was awesome.:amuse

Yea Barragan losing in the first round and Stark losing to Ichigo was a let down.

I completely expected those 2 to make it towards the end but some fans would rather vote for favorites instead of who would actually win in a fight in my honest opinion.

Once again thanks to all the staff who made the awesome tournament posible.

Takahashi
April 13, 2011, 03:09 PM
Despite the lack of tiers, I think the character selection was well done. I looked at the Naruto tournament, and there's a LOT more "barely shown anything" characters than in this one :P

Plus the addition of Team Battles was a great idea, I loved the names.

Looking forward to tournament #2, considering the rate of new characters introduced lately, I think the next tournament will be great.

thornofcarrion
April 13, 2011, 11:12 PM
This is so nice, reading your feedback about the success of tournament brings great joy to us. I think I have said before, we don't expect to arrange another one in year 2011. We should let story build more and have more new characters to chose from in the future.

Irrespective of when the next tournament would be held, we would love to have your suggestions and your opinions. You can PM us if you any suggestion/idea. We will make sure to note it down and discuss it in the next tournament.

LucyBenard
April 14, 2011, 01:57 AM
:hbunny I am really happy that Shunsui had come 3rd, Aizen and Yamamoto were without a doubt expected to finish in the top two after all :)

My condolences to the votes who had voted for Shinji, it was an interesting debate, but only one can win ;)

As usual, thanks to the Moderators for arranging, organizing, and executing such a great tournament. Without you, this would not have been possible! And yes, thanks to all of the posters that had made the discussions interesting :)

:confetti

decadoh
April 14, 2011, 11:08 PM
I find that statement " complete control of five senses" another Aizen's void claim , like he claimed Uruhara exilled for gigai's or just BS ing like he claimed

which makes me think why didnt aizen just said that urahara was exile because of what happened in the tbtp arc? he had nothing left to hide by the time he extracted the houg from rukia's body right? or was it retconned by kubo?

anyway. regarding ks's complete hypnosis, i think the illusion enters via sight. however, the brain interprets this illusion and provides info for the ears, nose, touch, and taste (five senses) in accordance to what it sees. im just speculating. so yeah, probably if you close your eyes, you might develop immunity from ks. because really, i havent seen any ks illusions affecting the taste. well maybe because an optical illusion is easier to show, but still. i hope im making sense :p

CeroOskuraz
April 15, 2011, 08:17 PM
Fantasticaly happy that Team Big Gunz won :tem

Thank you to all the moderators that helped arrange the thing, and thanks to all the posters out there who made it a spectacle to behold!

I would also like to apologize for some of the more aggressive and flamebaiting/flame debating I engaged in the past few days.

But I can't wait for something else like this! :tem