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igotthegoods
March 30, 2011, 06:43 PM
Yamamoto vs. Aizen

http://static.mangahelpers.com/gallery-previews/14733

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Yamamoto

Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni is the captain of the 1st division and also the Captain-Commander of the whole Gotei 13. The oldest captain, Yamamoto is a loyal and serious man who is well-respected almost universally among shinigami. He follows the laws of Soul Society to the letter and does not tolerate insubordination. As the founder of the Shinō Academy along with over two millennia of combat experience, Yamamoto is revered as the most powerful combatant in Soul Society. His zanpakutō, Ryūjin Jakka, is the oldest and the most powerful fire-type zanpakutō. When released in shikai, Ryūjin Jakka's blade is engulfed into fire. The aura of this weapon can disintegrate everything and anything that Yamamoto waves the sword at, being capable of incinerating an area even greater than that of Karakura Town. He is also able to use the powerful special shikai abilities Jōkaku Enjō and Ennetsu Jigoku.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned
Aizen

Aizen Sōsuke, an evil-supergenius megalomaniac and former 5th division captain, is a master of machinations and manipulation. His virtual mastery of all facets of shinigami combat fuels his superiority complex and set him on a quest to become the most supreme being in existence. His zanpakutō, Kyouka Suigetsu, allows him in shikai to manipulate the five senses of any person that has ever seen his initial release. The only method to avoid being trapped in Aizen's illusions is to touch Kyōka Suigetsu's blade before complete hypnosis is activated.this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

Random101
April 07, 2011, 12:13 AM
Yamamoto takes it with Massive AoE with shikai alone. Aizen definitely has a chance with Illusions, but ultimately without Wonderwiess the dude is rather screwed even when he does get him under KS.

LucyBenard
April 07, 2011, 12:27 AM
This one is kind of tricky. It is true that Yamamoto was able catch Aizen in SS due to the latter having WW as backup, which leads me to believe that an in-character Aizen (without WW) would be extremely careful otherwise when going up against an opponent such as Yamamoto.

Aizen simply needs to put Yamamoto under hypnosis, and he'll have a pretty decent shot at winning this one.

Since Yamamoto is limited to Shikai, Aizen should have no problem standing up and facing the flames of Ryūjin Jakka. Moreover, Yamamoto will also not have the time to set up dangerous techniques such as Ennetsu Jigoku (Flames of Hell).

It all comes down to whether Yamamoto falls under Aizen's illusions or not.

kkck
April 07, 2011, 12:49 AM
I have to lean towards yamamoto here. I do believe the two of them are roughly even but even then the manga points towards yamamoto a bit. I don't think the situation is like what some people think and yamamoto's mere release (let alone a technique) would obliterate aizen. Aizen still has his smarts (more so than yamamoto), his insane speed (there is a chance aizen is actually faster than yama IMO) and his sheer skill in every other shinigami art. Yamamoto might have a the edge in terms of firepower but I really do doubt yamamoto has more skill or technique than aizen except perhaps hand to hand combat but that would not be a factor here).

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 01:51 AM
Yama is ultimate Shinigami. So in every field of Shinigami Art he is the best. He is the fastest, physically strongest, has the biggest reiatsu and has the strongest Zan. Also he has so wast experience...
Even though this fight won't be easy for Yama, but still he wins this with his Shikai.:)

Buzz Killington
April 07, 2011, 02:47 AM
Yamamoto destroys Aizen..

Aizen admitted as much would happen, hence he created WW. WW isn't here. Good luck Aizen

Smit
April 07, 2011, 02:56 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

First panel says it all. Yama wins.

Boris999
April 07, 2011, 03:27 AM
In my opinion, Aizen's genius leans more towards the preparation side of things. He is a manipulator. He has every angle worked out long before the fight even happens.

As opposed to ... Say Urahara who is brilliant because he is able to watch and react intelligently to what is happening.

My point being, as Aizen in this case has no prior knowledge of Yama and is unable to prepare for the fight, he will be at a disadvantage as possibly his greatest strength will be negated.

As for raw attributes, I do not think there is horrible much difference between Aizen and Yama in their respectve shikai states. But I would definetly lean towards Yama. He is the peak of Shinigami power.

The only thing that would lend this fight in, possibly, Aizen's favor is his hax ability. But you have to remember that Yama is a very no-nonsense fighter and is unlikely to wait and stare at Aizen's sword.

Even if he is put under Hypnosis, I can definetly see him taking it until he works things out. Yama may not be hailed as a genius of Urahara's level but as the most senior warrior shinigami he likely has 'battle-smarts'. I can imagine him tanking a hit that has him impaled with Aizen's sword and realising that while he is touching the sword he is able to hit Aizen. (Think of Kenpachi vrs Tousen)

In other words, Aizen's edge in the fight relied on him disregarding everything for a strategy that could take Yama on. 'The mightiest warrior can be slain by a single unlucky arrow' philosophy. Which is to say, I'll give this one to Yama.

emanresu
April 07, 2011, 03:30 AM
Aizen should win this with ease as long as he doesnt opt to stab Yama lol.

thornofcarrion
April 07, 2011, 03:49 AM
One vs. One, even with KS, I don't think Aizen can win. Yama already showed what he can do even effected by KS.

Miyagi
April 07, 2011, 03:51 AM
I agree with other people, I think Yamamoto wins. Aizen is no slouch but Yamamoto is ultimately better.

ShootToKill
April 07, 2011, 03:57 AM
Aizen has used KS extremely sparingly in his fights, even if we include the times when he "might" have used it. What is he truly capable of with KS? Can he cause Yama such incredible pain that he is forced to drop his sword? Can he remove all Yama's senses as in Tousen's Bankai? Can he cause Yama to believe he has killed him and therefore let his guard down? If any of these are possible with KS, then I think that Aizen wins this. I believe it is implied that Yama's strongest techniques need some preparation, so if Aizen acts quickly and uses KS creatively, he should win this.

Buzz Killington
April 07, 2011, 04:08 AM
Aizen's abilities aren't that great. KS is about perception, it doesn't literally have control over all your senses. Its more object based, in other words

He can create something that fools all of your senses in the way he wants it to. For example, like he says here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-625-13/bleach/chapter-171.html). He can make you see something and perceive it on different levels how he wants you to, which is how he's been shown using it everytime.

Takahashi
April 07, 2011, 04:17 AM
Aizen.

Yamamoto risked getting stabbed just to have one sure fire shot to kill Aizen. He knows how dangerous KS is really is, there's a reason he was going to suicide. But when you throw them in a situation where Yama doesn't have months to figure out a workaround, and flat out doesn't even know what KS does unless Aizen monologues about it, he can't win.

KS beats everything. There's a reason Kubo made Aizen a cocky dumbass that believed in the Hogokyu's power more than his sword. Because if he had used KS on Dangai Ichigo, the manga would be over.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 04:32 AM
Takahashi
So why Aizen made Wondy and said that Yama is stronger than him even with Kyoka Suigetsu?

ShootToKill
April 07, 2011, 04:41 AM
Because Yama had preparation time for Ennetsu Jigoku - he won't in this tournament.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 04:43 AM
No Aizen pretty much stated that in any way Yama is stronger than him. He admitted it, that in pure one on one with their Zans Aizen will loose to Yama.;)

Takahashi
April 07, 2011, 04:46 AM
No Aizen pretty much stated that in any way Yama is stronger than him. He admitted it, that in pure one on one with their Zans Aizen will loose to Yama.;)

No, it's called preparations. Same reason he had a back of the neck protector, or did any of what he did. Aizen thinks things through, and as insanely hax as KS is, it DOES have a weakness, one Yama figured out, as well as Gin. Obviously he'd come ready for absolutely anything, and that's part of what made him so dangerous.

Not to mention that these guys will meet with no knowledge of each other. Aizen unsheathes his sword, Yama looks at it, and Aizen could stab him as much as he wants without Yama even understanding what's going on. Yama's only shot the first time around was his knowledge and prep time as a countermeasure, no such thing exists here.

ShootToKill
April 07, 2011, 04:50 AM
I'm not denying Yama's Zan is more powerful - Aizen's isn't a power Zan at all, it relies on hypnosis to make up the difference between him and Yama in power. However, I was just saying that Aizen needed WW because Yama had preparation time in FKT, so he was able to use his suicide technique. In the tournament, this won't happen, so Yama won't have an ability which can instakill Aizen. Aizen won't be foolish enough to run Yama through, and if he uses KS intelligently, he will be able to secure a victory.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 04:53 AM
Yama is a tank that could tank his own Ennetsu Jigoku, so anyway he will endure several slices from Aizen to know how to counter such ability and then he will catch him a finish with Single Bone or his Shikai.
He can also attack at all directions with his Shikai. He can also make a wall of flames around himself to prevent Aizen from comong.
And Aizen really stated himself that Yama is stronger and has the strongest Zan. I won't doubt such statement.

ShootToKill
Aizen didn't say you were stronger, because you had time to prepare. He said you are stronger. That's all for it.:)

Takahashi
April 07, 2011, 04:54 AM
Yama is a tank that could tank his own Ennetsu Jigoku, so anyway he will endure several slices from Aizen to know how to counter such ability and then he will catch him a finish with Single Bone or his Shikai.
He can also attack at all directions with his Shikai. He can also make a wall of flames around himself to prevent Aizen from comong.
And Aizen really stated himself that Yama is stronger and has the strongest Zan. I won't doubt such statement.

He won't live from a head shot. Also, what does surrounding himself in flames do? It's purely defensive. Aizen could make Yama see and hear Aizen burning away, when in reality he's standing behind him, Yama drops his guard, and now he's dead.

ShootToKill
April 07, 2011, 04:57 AM
ShootToKill[/B]
Aizen didn't say you were stronger, because you had time to prepare. He said you are stronger. That's all for it.:)
Stronger yes, but stronger =/= confirmed win. As I said, KS isn't about strength, it's about manipulation, and if Aizen can outwit Yama and use KS to his best advantage, he can overcome the power gap.

Truu
April 07, 2011, 04:58 AM
Totally don't care about this match-up.

Picked Aizen, just because.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 05:01 AM
Takahashi
Aizen won't one shot him.:) Yama managed to live after tanking an attack that should have killed Aizen, all the Gotei Captains, Vaizards, Vice Captains and the pillars thus destroying Karakura Town and all his residents.;)
So of course he won't be dead after one or two hits. And after two hits he will understand Aizen's Zan flow and will react immediatly and trash him.
Also I can repeat tha Yama's Shikai can attack in every direction at the same time, so it would be easy to understand where Aizen really is.
Also Yama couldn't fight with all power of his Zan from the start, cause he didn't want to harm real Karakura Town, so in this fight he won't hold back.

And again if Aizen himself says that Yama is stronger than him it should be considered, especially cause it was confirmed by actual deeds from Yama.:)


Also Yama will just speedblitz Aizen, cause Yama is just faster and won't be under Kyoka Suigetsu.

Takahashi
April 07, 2011, 05:09 AM
Takahashi
Aizen won't one shot him.:) Yama managed to live after tanking an attack that should have killed Aizen, all the Gotei Captains, Vaizards, Vice Captains and the pillars thus destroying Karakura Town and all his residents.;)
So of course he won't be dead after one or two hits. And after two hits he will understand Aizen's Zan flow and will react immediatly and trash him.

Yamamoto cannot live from a head shot. Aizen is cautious, he won't be like he was when he had WW backing him up. Yamamoto had more than SIX months to figure out a way to beat KS, and you're telling me if he gets cut a few times he'll do the same and win? How?



Also I can repeat tha Yama's Shikai can attack in every direction at the same time, so it would be easy to understand where Aizen really is.
Also Yama couldn't fight with all power of his Zan from the start, cause he didn't want to harm real Karakura Town, so in this fight he won't hold back.

He's just going to keep spinning in circles flinging fire around? Even if he did, KS controls all of your senses. Everything involved in your perception is due to your 5 senses. If someone can control them, they control your reality, unless you break the hypnosis, there can be no victory for you. If Yamamoto's solution is just to toss fire everywhere, he'll never know if he's hitting anything, Aizen could be anywhere, just waiting.


And again if Aizen himself says that Yama is stronger than him it should be considered, especially cause it was confirmed by actual deeds from Yama.:)

No one said otherwise. Yamamoto is stronger than Aizen in a straight up fight, we all know that. But it doesn't matter because this ISN'T a straight up fight, KS changes the field completely.



Also Yama will just speedblitz Aizen, cause Yama is just faster and won't be under Kyoka Suigetsu.

WW was able to interrupt Yamamoto's attack on Aizen. I see no reason to believe that Yama is fast enough to actually blitz Aizen, let alone one shot him. Aizen needs only to unsheathe his sword to win the fight.

xXan
April 07, 2011, 05:14 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

First panel says it all. Yama wins.

I can't belive you people think that Aizen can win this or even more that HE wins this ... How the hell can you guys know better then AIZEN himself?
This dude already posted this link where Aizen states the answer to this topic but you guys think he will win when Aizen HIMSELF states Yama Ji is way above him in a direct fight ...

Meh keep arguing with the manga itself .. I am sure you will win.

Takahashi
April 07, 2011, 05:16 AM
I can't belive you people think that Aizen can win this or even more that HE CAN win this ... How the hell can you guys know better then AIZEN himself?
This dude already posted this link where Aizen states the answer to this topic but you guys think he will win when Aizen HIMSELF states Yama Ji is way above him in a direct fight ...

Meh keep arguing with the manga itself .. I am sure you will win.

Why does no one understand that "direct fight" is not the same as being hypnotized and trying to fight?

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 05:20 AM
Takahashi

Yamamoto cannot live from a head shot. Aizen is cautious, he won't be like he was when he had WW backing him up. Yamamoto had more than SIX months to figure out a way to beat KS, and you're telling me if he gets cut a few times he'll do the same and win? How?
Noone can live from a headshot, but you need to land a hit on Yama. And it's rather difficult thing. If it would be that simple to land head-shots all the fights in Bleach were ended faster and the Bleach would be in less than 100 chapters.;)
I do believe that Yama can enure several strikes from Aizen to decide how to counter Kyoka Suigetsu. Yama is a tank.


He's just going to keep spinning in circles flinging fire around? Even if he did, KS controls all of your senses. Everything involved in your perception is due to your 5 senses. If someone can control them, they control your reality, unless you break the hypnosis, there can be no victory for you. If Yamamoto's solution is just to toss fire everywhere, he'll never know if he's hitting anything, Aizen could be anywhere, just waiting.
If you engulf everything around you with strong flames you will hit Aizen for sure. There is no doubt, so this will solve everything for Aizen and Yama. Yama actually doesn't need to know, where Aizen is. He just needs to burn everything around him.;)


No one said otherwise. Yamamoto is stronger than Aizen in a straight up fight, we all know that. But it doesn't matter because this ISN'T a straight up fight, KS changes the field completely.
No, Aizen stated that even in a fight one on one even with their Zans Aizen will loose and that's why he got Wondy.


WW was able to interrupt Yamamoto's attack on Aizen. I see no reason to believe that Yama is fast enough to actually blitz Aizen, let alone one shot him. Aizen needs only to unsheathe his sword to win the fight.
Wondy was the strongest Arrancar and had insane HSR and Yama managed to desintegrate him with his bare hands and I do believe that Yama can finish everyone in this manga for now (with the exeption of Hougioku Aizen) with his Twin Bone. So I do believe that Yama will manage to spidblitz Aizen as he practically managed to do. If not for Wondy Aizen might have been dead.

xXan
April 07, 2011, 05:21 AM
Why does no one understand that "direct fight" is not the same as being hypnotized and trying to fight?

Err you do know Yama Ji was hypnotized at the moment Aizen stated that right? Direct fight includes being hypnotized because at that moment Aizen felt the need to use WW. In a direct fight using all the skill a individual has is only normal, what its not normal is prep like WW.

Direct Fight = with all the skills a shinigami has but no prep. Makes sense to me.
Are you also going to tell me a direct fight would mean Yama Ji not using his flames?

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 05:38 AM
Err you do know Yama Ji was hypnotized at the moment Aizen stated that right? Direct fight includes being hypnotized because at that moment Aizen felt the need to use WW. In a direct fight using all the skill a individual has is only normal, what its not normal is prep like WW.

Direct Fight = with all the skills a shinigami has but no prep. Makes sense to me.
Are you also going to tell me a direct fight would mean Yama Ji not using his flames?

- Aizen said his power was unrivaled by anyone from SS.

- who said Aizen felt the need to use WW? Since he had WW he could be careless with Yama, than let WW finish him.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 05:43 AM
ki0
No, he actually saif that Yama was stronger than him and it's pretty much a fact, but other Captains are of course individually weaker than Aizen.

Of course Aizen felt the need to use Wondi, unless he wouldn't have made it in the first place. Also he felt the need and thus he brought him to FKT.

thornofcarrion
April 07, 2011, 05:50 AM
Is KS really that hax? Everyone in SS was under KS, he could have just walked there, oneshot everyone to death, while they could not even see him. But it did not happen in the manga, right. It can be argued he was cautious and didn't want to take any risk. Risk of what? If his ability was absolute, he had nothing to fear. A guy like him wont stay down for years and years, for not taking any risk.

I see it the other way around, Aizen, like HIMSELF acknowledged the power of Yama, would not able to defeat him one on one. Even if Yama does not know about KS, a man of his experience and stature will realize soon of what is happening. He was willing to die, got himself stabbed to catch Aizen.

KS may control senses but I cannot see how it can control the use of shikai or bankai. If I am not mistaken, KS has made people see and feel what was not there. Like Aizen did to Shinji back in TBTP or like he made captains to stab each other while they were seeing Aizen. Was there any instance in the manga, when Aizen controlled others' abilities or how they are executed? I don't recall any.

Anyway, its just my point of view. I don't expect anyone to agree but to me Yama clearly stands above Aizen in 1 vs. 1.
[hr]

- who said Aizen felt the need to use WW? Since he had WW he could be careless with Yama, than let WW finish him.

WW was solely created to absorb/seal the flames. I don't suppose he was just happened to be there and Aizen used him.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 05:51 AM
ki0
No, he actually saif that Yama was stronger than him and it's pretty much a fact, but other Captains are of course individually weaker than Aizen.

Of course Aizen felt the need to use Wondi, unless he wouldn't have made it in the first place. Also he felt the need and thus he brought him to FKT.

- Aizen did say his own power was unrivaled, after he said, Yama would likely beat him in a direct fight.

- WW was created for insurance of victory, not because Aizen needed him.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 06:04 AM
ki0

Aizen did say his own power was unrivaled, after he said, Yama would likely beat him in a direct fight.
I don't recall it, but I won't argue about this, cause I really don't recall if he said this.:)


WW was created for insurance of victory, not because Aizen needed him.
Aizen stated that Yama is stronger than him in a direct fight even with KS and thus he made Wondy to absorb Yama's flames, so he did need him to make a handicap to Yama.;)

Miyagi
April 07, 2011, 06:08 AM
I agree with thornofcarrion, Aizen himself admitted that Yamamoto is stronger, and he made an arrancar for the sole reason that he could take out Yamamoto. If Aizen could end Yamamoto by stabbing him in the head, we wouldn't have WW at all, actually Aizen would have killed Yamamoto before he left SS. IMHO the only reasonable explanation of the events that happened in the manga is that Yamamoto was stronger than Aizen and Aizen waited until he stole hogyoku to make a modded arrancar to handle the only man that could overpower him in a fight.

xXan
April 07, 2011, 06:13 AM
- Aizen said his power was unrivaled by anyone from SS.

- who said Aizen felt the need to use WW? Since he had WW he could be careless with Yama, than let WW finish him.

So you know better then Aizen what he can do?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

This is all the evidence one needs for this fight. Aizen not only states that Yama Ji is above him but the fact that he is WAY above him.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 06:16 AM
ki0

I don't recall it, but I won't argue about this, cause I really don't recall if he said this.:)


Aizen stated that Yama is stronger than him in a direct fight even with KS and thus he made Wondy to absorb Yama's flames, so he did need him to make a handicap to Yama.;)

I guess we interpret things differently. Aizen only said he would lose in a direct fight (he didn't mention KS)
[hr]

So you know better then Aizen what he can do?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

This is all the evidence one needs for this fight. Aizen not only states that Yama Ji is above him but the fact that he is WAY above him.


I didn't say I know better than Aizen n.I using a statement Aizen himself said as evidence.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 06:17 AM
ki0

I guess we interpret things differently. Aizen only said he would lose in a direct fight (he didn't mention KS)
I thought it's given, otherwise why he even needed Wondy.:)

Astray
April 07, 2011, 06:20 AM
If this is a direct fight with no knowledge of the other's abilities, meaning Yama hasn't seen the release for KS, which by the way we have no idea how long takes, then Yama has this easy. Even under KS Yama is still most likely the winner because he's just that powerful.

xXan
April 07, 2011, 06:25 AM
I guess we interpret things differently. Aizen only said he would lose in a direct fight (he didn't mention KS)
<hr noshade size="1">



I didn't say I know better than Aizen n.I using a statement Aizen himself said as evidence.

I was addresing this part:


who said Aizen felt the need to use WW? Since he had WW he could be careless with Yama, than let WW finish him.

Then i posted that link showing Aizen stating he is way below Yama Ji in a direct fight.

The first part was irrelevant to me as Aizen's action proved that to be nothing more then bragging.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 06:28 AM
I was addresing this part:


Then i posted that link showing Aizen stating he is way below Yama Ji in a direct fight.

The first part was irrelevant to me as Aizen's action proved that to be nothing more then bragging.

How ddid Aizen's actions prove it as bragging?

xXan
April 07, 2011, 07:02 AM
How ddid Aizen's actions prove it as bragging?


If Aizen's power was soooo unrivaled in SS there would be no point for Aizen to:

Create WW.
Yama Ji having the posibility to blow him up.
Stating Urahara was about his level.
Aizen stating that if not for his hogyoku infused self Urahara would have killed him.

The following action and statemants completly contradic that. So you can chose, that was a lie or he was bragging. To me it was bragging as that is in his caracter ...Remember after he got hogyoku all the bragging he made? That is how he is.

He probably left Urahara and Yama Ji out of this equation.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 07:19 AM
If Aizen's power was soooo unrivaled in SS there would be no point for Aizen to:

Create WW.
Yama Ji having the posibility to blow him up.
Stating Urahara was about his level.
Aizen stating that if not for his hogyoku infused self Urahara would have killed him.

The following action and statemants completly contradic that. So you can chose, that was a lie or he was bragging. To me it was bragging as that is in his caracter ...Remember after he got hogyoku all the bragging he made? That is how he is.

He probably left Urahara and Yama Ji out of this equation.

- he could have created WW as a back up plan. If Aizen would have won 6/10 times WW would make that 10/10.
- if Yama could just blow Aizen up whenever he wanted to he wouldn't have had to take such a long time to prepare EJ.
- Aizen could have just stabbed Yama in the head.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 07, 2011, 07:23 AM
Aizen himself stated that Yama is considerably stronger than himself, so I can't see how Aizen can win 6/10 without Wondy.:)
Even with Wondy Aizen would have lost if Yama didn't protect everyone with his own body from the explosion of Ennetsu Jigoku.;)

kamakazi_1996
April 07, 2011, 07:50 AM
yama wins this

aizen created ww just to beat yama and said himself that he is not in comparison to him, without ww sealing his zan yama can beat him easily

emanresu
April 07, 2011, 07:54 AM
yup.. so true. best part woud be yamaji using his bankai on an empty space which happen to be 'Aizen'.

or lets recall something really canon from manga. instead of stabbing yama in the gut, KS Aizen could stab yama in the head Fly-Tousen style. Game Over.

Kind of sad since Kubo cant pull such brutality act on human-esque characters in his manga. Unless those chars are beasts.

cracker
April 07, 2011, 08:00 AM
And so comes the end of the tournament. Yama, wins.

I'm incline to feel there are maybe a couple scenarios Aizen could steal a win but the majority goes to Yama. Aizen didn't fear him without reason and even came with several plans in FKT in which to exterminate him (sealing his zanpakuto, have him smother an explosion etc)

@thorn

To be honest despite Aizen saying his shikai was complete hypnosis and that it was absolute I've felt susceptibility (just as with real world hypnosis) was always a factor and someone people are easier to fool (hypnotize) than others. This theory spring forth from the Unohana incident in SS.

I just figured they would have eventually overcome the shikai and whatever weaknesses it had would have went through the door when he went bankai (assuming that indeed his bankai is a bigger, "badder" version of his shikai)...

Hystzen
April 07, 2011, 09:16 AM
Aizen didnt wipe out the SS back in SS because he was only intresting in hoguyoku to make himself a greater being..but first he needed to experiment with the real one so that is why he left to HM to create espada and understand the hoguyoku.

Aizen is one of the few people who could go toe to toe with yamma even then it 50/50 with outcome..im not calling yet going to watch

Random101
April 07, 2011, 10:02 AM
On the Yamamoto had time to prepare his attack: And he knew he would get this time how?

Seriously if he was at all worried about Yamamoto getting prep time, KS and kill him off in an instant. Why futz around with a modified Arrancar that might not even work if you could just do something as simple as that.

Granted a lot of the plot was asinine in this part, but honestly speaking Yamamoto didn't even have to suicide in that case (Another stupid thing, but if I go down that road I'll be here all day), he could have straight up slashed with RJ and Aizen would have been boned. Bare minimum he'd be losing his arm and KS, already a victory for Yamamoto, worst case he'd be utterly roasted and effectively a good beheading from dead, if he wasn't already.

Or hell Ichigo who was waiting for an opening could have bloody TAKEN it, but that's also here nor there. >>

Further still on Yamamoto having a month to think that up, I note that Yamamoto only had a month, Urahara had 100 years, along with the vizards and Aizen didn't make any sort of preparations for them now did he.

Granted, you could argue he had no idea about the Vizards, that's certainly reasonable, but saying the same for Urahara is out of the question. Urahara's factored into his plans from the start.

Xerneas
April 07, 2011, 10:19 AM
I'll just repeat myself. Most of the manga becomes pointless if you assume KS can do half the things people are assuming in this thread (control pain blah blah). It should if Aizen could use it to its full potential, but, y'know, he didn't. Either because thats in-character or he simply can't. It doesn't matter anyway cause you can't use invisible feats. :eyeroll

What we DO know for a fact is that Aizen admitted he would probably lose in a straight fight against old man. FKT arc becomes even worse than the mess it was if you say he was lying and hence there was no point to WW afterall. It affects too much of the plot to disregard. I don't see a problem in Aizen's statements. Him saying his abilities are unrivalled in SS is true. Absolute hypnosis is far above anything else in function. And still he didn't like his chances against Yama. So if anything it makes the matchup even clearer.

Furthermore, Aizen not knowing what he's up against is way worse for him than it is for old man. The thing about KS is that it really doesn't matter if you know or not cause you can't tell when its invoked and its flawless when in effect. But Aizen underestimated him even though he got rid of RJ, and almost payed the price. What do you suppose is gonna happen if he doesn't know anything at all? Not knowing about freaking RJ and a strength that can break a strong Arrancar into a million pieces...hmmm. Aizen could be put down without KS ever coming into play. Let me explain.

Like I was saying in vs Urahara and vs Shinji, when I was arguing on Aizen's side, his matches can always go one of two ways. The first scenario is where his opponent tries to get the jump on him before he can use KS (or he simply doesn't deem it necessary at the start) and the second is where he invokes KS right from the start. With those two it didn't make much difference, cause even though Urahara is supposedly his equal, its not like he can put Aizen down for the count with a couple hits and make KS a non-factor. Shinji isn't even coming close. Neither of them can take advantage of KS Aizen's arrogance, but Yama can do that.

Assuming they don't start off with Shi Kai, and fight using the other arts, Aizen isn't taking a Single Bone (never mind a Double) without being severely dented. He will be in shock if he goes down this route and I can't see him recovering in time to invoke his spell. For me Yama-jii wins this type of fight 100% of the time because he's so strong/fast/tankish. If they start off using Shi Kai then Aizen's chances rise dramatically, but I don't think they ever go past *50%. He can certainly trick Yama in hallucinating stuff, but it will be difficult for him to capitalize on it when the guy has a massive AOE, and even if he does inflict a serious blow, Yama is such a monster tank that he could still power through it and catch the real Azen and its lights out. It would have to be a full strength direct head shot to get rid of old man...but in character Aizen doesn't do stuff like that. OOC Aizen should be able to beat him all the time in this situation. But that doesn't count.

*Going back to the 50% number, you figure that if his (in character) chances were much greater than this, WW wouldn't have been invented. Remember that he never wanted to fight the other Captains and was genuinely surprised and disappointed when his VL Espada epic-failed. He was angry cause he didn't even imagine such a scenario could occur. But even though he was caught off guard by his Espada failing, he was still supremely confident of taking down everybody else by himself! Now a man that would do that kind of thing, but at the same time plan so specifically to overcome one person (WW was the only modded Arrancar in history), tells us his chances against that person were far, far less than against the others, and, at best, equal. The man is a sociopath who gets off on superiority, so this was a huge concession for him. I hope this logic makes sense to people.

TL;DR Yama-jii wins a non-Shi Kai scenario 100% of the time imo. He wins the Shi Kai scenario at least 50% of the time if Aizen is not OOC. The manga only makes sense that way to me. So all things considered, Yamamoto wins 75% of the time and I only give Aizen a 25% chance overall. I hope my math is right. Aizen should really get "the treatment" but unlike other characters I would understand if he got quite a few votes.

emanresu
April 07, 2011, 10:53 AM
lol.. the same could be said to yama. why prepare and bring along capts n vice to fkt. cant yama barehanded/shikai/bankai just solo aizen + his minions alone? cant unohana smack er brain twice before saying its only ichigo who can beat KS Aizen,, ermm. yama is in FKT too duhhh..

thats why Aizen will rape Yama with ease

vizardichigo
April 07, 2011, 10:54 AM
Why does no one understand that "direct fight" is not the same as being hypnotized and trying to fight?

Your wrong buddy. Aizen meant a direct / fair fight, a 1 vs 1 fight with zanpaktou, kidou etc etc. WW being part of the fight didnt make it a fair or direct fight, thats is why he said that. How could Yama using his shikai yet Aizen not using his own ever be considered a direct fight? Its a 1 v 1 Aizen was referring to and in a 1 v 1 Yama > Aizen....The manga states it, Aizen states it, Yama states it....Anything to the contrary is simply delusional. Im not saying that Aizen cannot beat Yama because IMO he can. Yama may be stronger, but in terms of speed Aizen may be faster. Kidou wise Yama wins because his lvl 96 kidou was enormous almmost as big as Aizen's lvl 90 and Aizen had evolved 2 forms then and used a full incantation. Hand to hand Yama is probably superior although Aizen has shown he is no slouch and is not afraid to use his hands eg when he grabbed Ichigo's sword. Swordsmanship, well we haven't really seen Yama in a sword fight so ill give it to Aizen. Ability wise they are probably even. RJ is the most powerful zan while KS is almost unbeatable but RJ has the advantage as Yama has ranged as well as CQC ability with it. RJ also has sealing ability so ill give it to Yama. Lastly intelligence goes to Aizen. So i see it like this

Strength Yama
Speed Aizen
Hand to hand Yama
Kidou Yama
Swordsmanship Aizen
Ability Yama
Intelligence Aizen

Close but Yama takes it 4 to 3. IMO if the fight 10 times, Yama wins 6/10 while Aizen takes 4/10. I dont think that Yama would beat Aizen every time they fight but he would prevail more times than he would lose. Yama takes this one ever so slightly :amuse

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 07, 2011, 11:32 AM
We all knew these 2 where going to be in the finals so its really no shocker lol.
ONTOPIC

Yama wins this.

Aizen has already shown that Yama is superior by

a.creating Wonderweiss (which shows that he was not sure he could win to begin with)

and

b.HE SAID SO HIMSELF HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO WIN

with that said I'm giving this one to Yama.

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 11:44 AM
- Aizen said his power was unrivaled by anyone from SS.

- who said Aizen felt the need to use WW? Since he had WW he could be careless with Yama, than let WW finish him.
Except before that he said that yama is stronger, more powerful, and in a straight fight he would lose. Aizen is a cocky bastard that likes to talk mighty. Don't u think his statement is contradictory?

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 07, 2011, 11:49 AM
Except before that he said that yama is stronger, more powerful, and in a straight fight he would lose. Aizen is a cocky bastard that likes to talk mighty. Don't u think his statement is contradictory?

exactly ^^^

Someone as cocky and big headed as Aizen would NEVER admit to someone being FAR more powerful then him if he actually was not.

He said in a straight and fair fight he would lose which obviously means in a straight sword vs sword,power vs power,skill vs skill fight that he would lose.

Wonderweiss being created and used turned it into a unfair fight since Yama would not be able to use his shikai to attack which is obviously why Aizen made that statement and which also further proves that Aizen knows he would not be able to win.

All of you Aizen fans are basically saying you know Aizen abilities and limitations better then Aizen himself knows which is pretty funny lol.:amuse

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 12:03 PM
Yama wins.

KS is not flawless like some people believe. We can use our imagaination as much as we want, but ultimatelly, it is nothing but specualtions. The author wanted to show that KS is not something that can be used to beat every one.

Even against the combo that is shunsui, shinji, hitsu, and soifon, aizen couldn't simply KS and take them out. Why? Because fighters of that caliber cannot be 1-shotted if they have their guard up, even with KS. That is why he had to create an opening- by getting hitsu to lose control and the other captains to get worried about him. At that moment, he was able to take them out.

As others have stated, if both fighters start off the match on equal grounds, yama wins 100% of the time. His overwhelming strength and power would make it impossible for his to use KS or fight back (ie think of the isshin situation but even worse for aizen).

Now if we give aizen the advantage by putting yama under KS, aizen would still not be able to win. An experienced and powerful fighter like yama would be able to catch aizen and own him. Aizen realized that, that was why he created WW because he knew he couldn't win even with KS. Even with just his bare hands, yama was confident he can take out aizen and he sure as hell showed he can.

Aizen is powerful, but in the bleach world, yama is god!

Lunatic Scream
April 07, 2011, 01:39 PM
Ehhh. Even if Yama'd only win 51% of the time, then that's still a win for him. I like to vote for these by imagining 9 different matches between the combatants, and whoever wins the most is who I vote for.

One of my big questions in this one, is: Even though Yama doesn't know Aizen's ability, does he know WHO he is? That he betrayed Soul Society and that he is at least quite powerful?

If he does, I wouldn't put it past him to immediately trap Aizen in that prison he used on Gin/Tousen/Aizen at the beginning of FKT. After that, he can charge up whatever he wants.

Otherwise, it's almost a given that Aizen gets Yama in KS. However, that doesn't make this a guaranteed win, because the sheer scale of RJ's attacks gives him a (honestly really high) chance to win.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 01:58 PM
Yama wins.

KS is not flawless like some people believe. We can use our imagaination as much as we want, but ultimatelly, it is nothing but specualtions. The author wanted to show that KS is not something that can be used to beat every one.

Even against the combo that is shunsui, shinji, hitsu, and soifon, aizen couldn't simply KS and take them out. Why? Because fighters of that caliber cannot be 1-shotted if they have their guard up, even with KS. That is why he had to create an opening- by getting hitsu to lose control and the other captains to get worried about him. At that moment, he was able to take them out.

As others have stated, if both fighters start off the match on equal grounds, yama wins 100% of the time. His overwhelming strength and power would make it impossible for his to use KS or fight back (ie think of the isshin situation but even worse for aizen).

Now if we give aizen the advantage by putting yama under KS, aizen would still not be able to win. An experienced and powerful fighter like yama would be able to catch aizen and own him. Aizen realized that, that was why he created WW because he knew he couldn't win even with KS. Even with just his bare hands, yama was confident he can take out aizen and he sure as hell showed he can.

Aizen is powerful, but in the bleach world, yama is god!

- Aizen created an illusion out of thin air with Harribel, she's at least the same caliber as Hitsu.

- I don't see why Aizen couldn't create an illusion out of thin air with the others as while. The caliber of fighter shouldn't change the effect of KS on Aizen's opponent. It still should be capable of controlling the senses of any fighter to the same degree it did Harribel.

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 02:02 PM
- Aizen created an illusion out of thin air with Harribel, she's at least the same caliber as Hitsu.

- I don't see why Aizen couldn't create an illusion out of thin air with the others as while. The caliber of fighter shouldn't change the effect of KS on Aizen's opponent. It still should be capable of controlling the senses of any fighter to the same degree it did Harribel.
halibel wasn't expecting aizen to attack her. She was also weakened from her fight with hitsu. The damage from aizen further weakened her. So that argument falls thru

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 02:09 PM
halibel wasn't expecting aizen to attack her. She was also weakened from her fight with hitsu. The damage from aizen further weakened her. So that argument falls thru

If she didn't expect it, how would her expecting it have changed things? In what way specifically would her expecting an attack effect KS?

Random101
April 07, 2011, 02:13 PM
It wouldn't have made her pissed off at the betrayal for one. Keep in mind of the four people Aizen downed in an instant, three of them, Hitsugaya, Shinji, and Soifon were all pissed to hell, and Kyoraku wasn't paying attention while yelling at Hitsugaya to not flip out. Pissed off = bad news for your perception level. As those three can attest.

En Yang Ji
April 07, 2011, 02:19 PM
It wouldn't have made her pissed off at the betrayal for one. Keep in mind of the four people Aizen downed in an instant, three of them, Hitsugaya, Shinji, and Soifon were all pissed to hell, and Kyoraku wasn't paying attention while yelling at Hitsugaya to not flip out. Pissed off = bad news for your perception level. As those three can attest.

That would only matter if being more perceptive, effected the illusions of KS.

Random101
April 07, 2011, 02:23 PM
You asked how expecting it would change things. That's how. Granted I don't particularly agree, you have to be pretty hax ala Yamamoto to be able to deal with KS, meaning having massive and powerful AoE to use as well as preferably some ability to detect somehow(Which only Yamamoto really has anyway). If you can't just keep an omnidirectional assault up all the time anyway. However that's one reason it would have screwed her over, one that held true for three others he managed to down, and a forth who just wasn't paying attention.

benelori
April 07, 2011, 02:25 PM
This is tough...because we are not talking about some twisted plot here, this is just a fight, so I think we just need to judge what we know about the character's fighting abilities...

Creating WW? Irrelevant IMO...Aizen didn't really want to fight...that's why he created pawns...I think if he needed WW to defeat Yama, then he would've jumped in while WW was fighting, or kill Yama after...he didn't want to do that...he was still manipulating people, toying with them...
Aizen said that Yama is more powerful...in the manga, yes, because in the manga shinigami have bankai as well...so in an all out fight, Yama would've won...

But this final is not an all out fight...Yama doesn't have the techniques to kill Aizen, but Aizen has KS...he can just disappear from sight without actually running away...cast a few kidou, go for the head shot...

So in a serious fight I would vote for Aizen...on a shikai level, KS is more hax than Ryuujin Jakka, especially since Yama doesn't have preparation time...there's no going around fighting an invisible opponent, who is almost on the same level as fighting abilities go...that's just too much even for Yama

But there's the personality issue in this fight...will Aizen play around or not?
If he plays around, Yama will spank to kids ass:p...I mean he caught the sword once, and was about to strike...and we know that Aizen loves to play...

Or maybe Aizen will just strike really fast, stall a bit to play around, until Yama prepares the technique...

I don't know who to vote for at the moment...I have to decide if I will take the personality into account, and how does that develop...I mean Aizen showed he can be serious, too, so...

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 02:28 PM
If she didn't expect it, how would her expecting it have changed things? In what way specifically would her expecting an attack effect KS?
Because she would be more on guard...

tousendrinksbleach
April 07, 2011, 03:20 PM
Yama is ultimate Shinigami. So in every field of Shinigami Art he is the best. He is the fastest, physically strongest, has the biggest reiatsu and has the strongest Zan. Also he has so wast experience...
Even though this fight won't be easy for Yama, but still he wins this with his Shikai.:)

ya well the first in the league can lose to the last ... it's not always a matter of who is strongest , sometimes who is well prepared and who isnt underestimating the other can create the surprise

also as benelori said, we arent using the kubo's logic here ... aizen can stand 1 km away , cast binding spells then cast a 99 hado (perhaps he can ... but anyway just hado 90 is enough with incantation)
yama's AOE will certainely kill aizen, but don forget ... yama was intending to commit suicide and take aizen with him , the amount of flames that incapacitated him after he took the damage was just the starting of his shikai , it's more a tie than yama's win

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 03:29 PM
This is tough...because we are not talking about some twisted plot here, this is just a fight, so I think we just need to judge what we know about the character's fighting abilities...

Creating WW? Irrelevant IMO...Aizen didn't really want to fight...that's why he created pawns...I think if he needed WW to defeat Yama, then he would've jumped in while WW was fighting, or kill Yama after...he didn't want to do that...he was still manipulating people, toying with them...
Aizen said that Yama is more powerful...in the manga, yes, because in the manga shinigami have bankai as well...so in an all out fight, Yama would've won...

But this final is not an all out fight...Yama doesn't have the techniques to kill Aizen, but Aizen has KS...he can just disappear from sight without actually running away...cast a few kidou, go for the head shot...

So in a serious fight I would vote for Aizen...on a shikai level, KS is more hax than Ryuujin Jakka, especially since Yama doesn't have preparation time...there's no going around fighting an invisible opponent, who is almost on the same level as fighting abilities go...that's just too much even for Yama

But there's the personality issue in this fight...will Aizen play around or not?
If he plays around, Yama will spank to kids ass:p...I mean he caught the sword once, and was about to strike...and we know that Aizen loves to play...

Or maybe Aizen will just strike really fast, stall a bit to play around, until Yama prepares the technique...

I don't know who to vote for at the moment...I have to decide if I will take the personality into account, and how does that develop...I mean Aizen showed he can be serious, too, so...
Again, just because u think KS can do something, doesn't mean it can. Based on what u are saying, aizen could easily have just walked around SS killing people one after the other. But he didn't. Why? Because KS does not give u an auto win.

How does yama not have the power to kill aizen? Just his flame prison was enough to trap aizen. The only reason he used the nuke was to blow everything apart in order to make sure he hits aizen.

In this fight, good luck to aizen even trying to attempt to use KS. Yama strikes fast and hard

benelori
April 07, 2011, 03:51 PM
Again, just because u think KS can do something, doesn't mean it can. Based on what u are saying, aizen could easily have just walked around SS killing people one after the other. But he didn't. Why? Because KS does not give u an auto win.

How does yama not have the power to kill aizen? Just his flame prison was enough to trap aizen. The only reason he used the nuke was to blow everything apart in order to make sure he hits aizen.

In this fight, good luck to aizen even trying to attempt to use KS. Yama strikes fast and hard

Thinking KS can do something...U read my mind?:p
Anyway...I'm using manga material here...can Aizen make people disappear? Yes he can...can he make a body just with the sword? Yes he can...
Therefore he can disappear from Yama's sight...we are not talking about escaping an entire SS...just one person...

His flame prison was enough to trap Aizen...did Aizen actually try to move? Even after the prison was dispelled? And if the breath of a lowly hollow can blow away the fire...you actually think that Aizen won't escape?

Aizen is also fast enough to dodge the flame prison...he proved that so many times...

So Yama has nothing in his arsenal to kill Aizen...he has a slash, he has a prison, and he has hand to hand combat...not enough power to take out Aizen...

I don't really like these fights that actually happened in the manga in one form or the other...so much things interfere in the manga, that are not interfering now, or there is a nerf of some kind that doesn't happen, etc...

tousendrinksbleach
April 07, 2011, 03:55 PM
what can i say ? genius !!!
just because you think KS doesnt do a thing doesnt mean it cant
[hr]
i'm 99% sure some people would still give the win to yama agaisnt after dangai ichigo ...

Raizen
April 07, 2011, 03:58 PM
Thinking KS can do something...U read my mind?:p
Anyway...I'm using manga material here...can Aizen make people disappear? Yes he can...can he make a body just with the sword? Yes he can...
Therefore he can disappear from Yama's sight...we are not talking about escaping an entire SS...just one person...

His flame prison was enough to trap Aizen...did Aizen actually try to move? Even after the prison was dispelled? And if the breath of a lowly hollow can blow away the fire...you actually think that Aizen won't escape?

Aizen is also fast enough to dodge the flame prison...he proved that so many times...

So Yama has nothing in his arsenal to kill Aizen...he has a slash, he has a prison, and he has hand to hand combat...not enough power to take out Aizen...
With KS, we can use our imagination to come up with many scenarios.
But even then, the author and aizen knows best. Even knowing the full capabilities of his KS, he felt he still needed WW to fight yama. That is manga fact

So we are attributing aizen not moving because he wanted to stay immobile? Gin pretty implied they couldn't get out. Hollows have certain abilities. That specific hollow may have the ability to cancel out fire.

Aizen showed he was fast but whether he could dodge the fire prison is questionable.

Yama also has the techniques that split and burn allon. There is a reason why aizen feared his power

benelori
April 07, 2011, 04:22 PM
With KS, we can use our imagination to come up with many scenarios.
But even then, the author and aizen knows best. Even knowing the full capabilities of his KS, he felt he still needed WW to fight yama. That is manga fact

So we are attributing aizen not moving because he wanted to stay immobile? Gin pretty implied they couldn't get out. Hollows have certain abilities. That specific hollow may have the ability to cancel out fire.

Aizen showed he was fast but whether he could dodge the fire prison is questionable.

Yama also has the techniques that split and burn allon. There is a reason why aizen feared his power

That's my point and I think you missed that in my first post...I don't doubt Yama's strength over Aizen in the manga...where bankai exist, and other kidou exist, and who knows what other Ryuujin Jakka techniques etc...so if the author wants to put Yama over Aizen, by using Aizen's statements...it's good, and I believe the mangaka, because in his manga he has the liberty to develop a fight the way he wants...

But this is not a manga scenario...both of them are limited to shikai...and neither have preparation time...so circumstances are different...

About Aizen dodging...I mean c'mon...let's say he couldn't dodge because it was too fast...if he wanted to dodge it, he could've used KS to at least make Gin and Tousen disappear or something...there are soo many ways to combat such a direct attack...

Kubo said Aizen didn't dodge it...it's fine with me...because it was clear that Aizen didn't want to fight from the beginning...

Also I do think that Allon can't compare to Aizen...I mean Allon is creature born from extremities of fodder people compared to the level of this fight

PS: I'm not using my imagination when it comes to KS...I'm using memory, even if I put them in a scenario...I'm not making this stuff up...Aizen can really do these, and Yama has showed nothing to directly counter them
[hr]
Anyway...good night people...it was a fun tourney!:thumbs

zimbardo
April 07, 2011, 04:30 PM
I see this going to Yamamoto, and not only because Aizen said that Yamamoto was stronger.
I understand that in this tournament no one knows the others powers before the fight begins, with this in mind two things pop to mind.
Firstly, Yamamoto is unlikely to fight Aizen in the way that he did before (i.e. first try to trap him in a sphere of fire so the captains can then mop up everyone else whilst he charges his auto explode). Sure Yamamoto will not have a chance to prepare for Aizen's powers, but neither will Aizen have a chance to prepare for the overwhelming power of RJ.
Secondly, it is not clear how long KS takes to cast, but even if it is super quick, Yamamoto is not a guy who likes to wait around. He more likely to take the initiative and quickly attack. Aizen on the other hand appears to be the kind of guy who likes to take his time and analyse his opponents. Now (to me at least) it is pretty obvious that the flames from RJ are pretty quick, and therefore Aizen will start this match on the defensive.
I think it will be quite hard to catch Yamamoto with KS under such conditions.
Also I am inclined to disagree with people who consider Aizen faster than Yamamoto. Nothing in the manga so far has stated as such (except perhaps where Aizen was in his evolved state).

exacta
April 07, 2011, 06:02 PM
Just would like everyone to remember that Aizen himself said he would lose in a direct battle with Yamamoto, which is pretty much a scenario like this. EVEN AIZEN THINKS AIZEN WOULD LOSE.

Seriously, if Aizen could vote in this poll, he would vote for Yamamoto.:-_-

kkck
April 07, 2011, 06:07 PM
That kinda depends on the translation though. In some he says he would be "overpowered" or in others that it is just a "might". Being overpowered is only an issue if he fights ryujin jakka head on and the might would suggest that yamamoto was basically the only captain who actually had a chance of standing up to aizen. If yama was the only plausible threat among all the captains, it would make sense for aizen to prepare specifically for that fight as he did. Aizen has always been a tactician. He was already in a position where the vizards and captains were not a threat at all as he could overpower the lot of them on his own so given what we have seen it makes perfect sense aizen would take proper precautions against the one threat he did have. It would have been borderline lazy if aizen did not take precautions against the one threat there was lol. We also have to consider good old all powerful invincible yama would rather go suicidal than fight aizen. That should be seen as something like what aizen said about yamamoto IMO.

zimbardo
April 07, 2011, 06:31 PM
We also have to consider good old all powerful invincible yama would rather go suicidal than fight aizen. That should be seen as something like what aizen said about yamamoto IMO.

Well, we must also consider then that this was not due to Yamamoto thinking Aizen was necessarily stronger than him - as shown by his comments here, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-48094-6/bleach/chapter-395.html) here, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-6/bleach/chapter-394.html) here, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-7/bleach/chapter-394.html) and here. (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-6/bleach/chapter-393.html) - but rather in the fact that it was the only way that he could be sure that he knew he had killed Aizen off. Knowing the properties of KS, Yamamoto he had to be sure he had Aizen, (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-10/bleach/chapter-393.html) as otherwise Aizen would have been left alive to make the key.
Knowing the powers of KS, and knowing he was under its influence from the start, made Yamamoto have to carry out such a cautious attack.
As the manga has quite clearly shown that Yamamoto is more than willing to sacrifice himself (and everyone else) to carry out his duty and protect the real world.
As I stated before, not knowing the properties of KS could actually work out in Yamamoto's favour. As this will stop him having to be so cautious and instead he will be able to force Aizen on the defensive from the get go.
________________________________

On a side point - is it possible you could post (or reply with) an alternate translation for this page? (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html) I have been unable to find anything as of yet to suggest an alternative to Aizen fearing RJ's power over his own. Thanks!

LucyBenard
April 07, 2011, 10:20 PM
Oh :) I accidentally voted for Aizen.

But then again, I always had the hunch that manga events were purely circumstantial, and Aizen was using pawns the whole time, as he just stood around and did not want to get his hands dirty.

In an all out fight, in which Yamamoto is only limited to shikai, and does not have access to powerful techniques due to the massive amount of time needed to set up them, Aizen actually has a good chance, considering:

1) He's going all out
2) Per 1, he'll be super careful and not take any chances
3) Try his best to get KS out
4) Actually want to fight (his super strength and reiatsu has already been demonstrated)

I guess I should be changing my signature now ;) *Aizen simply looked better* :eyeroll

AlB
April 08, 2011, 02:41 AM
But then again, I always had the hunch that manga events were purely circumstantial, and Aizen was using pawns the whole time, as he just stood around and did not want to get his hands dirty.


He SO reminds me of somebody....:eyeroll

Anyway, Yama burns [Aizen], [Aizen's] charred body falls to the ground, Yama seals his sword and tadaaaaa: Aizen jumps out of nowhere and cuts his head off. End.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 03:44 AM
I was thinking about this fight and really, based on what the manga has shown it really contradicts what it has said. Lets consider this scene for instance.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-401-page-13.html

In here we see an interesting bit. When ichigo fought the release form of ulquiorra he was definitely the slower one however even with a extremely small margin he was able to react to him. In here in turn even with his mask on aizen is casually able to get behind him. I do think at the time ichigo was having trouble with his hollowification but in turn being completely beyond ichigo's senses does seem to suggest aizen is just that fast. It's not like ichigo was under the illusion either, aizen really is that insanely fast. I don't think the espada above him would have been that different in terms of speed either. Now, lets add these:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-33754-20/bleach/chapter-375.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-624-20/bleach/chapter-170.html

Hitsugaya had his guard well placed and even if harribel would not have expected an attack from aizen, she still got basically blitz. If she had been able to see the attack coming I really don't see any reason for her to not be able to defend herself. How would the illusion even play a part in aizen using shunpo from the front?
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-13/bleach/chapter-390.html
Komamura is a power oriented fighter and his bankai dedicates every bit of komamura's reiatsu for that. even then, aizen more than easily cuts through myo and takes down komamura. Heck, tousen with a mask only managed this much.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-8/bleach/chapter-385.html
There is quite an overwhelming difference.

Then we have seen aizen catch ichigo's crappy bankai which at the moment seems to give him just about as much speed and power as a regular captian would have with a shikai which would be consistent with aizen doing this:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-46352-16/bleach/chapter-390.html

Now, I think it is safe to assume based on the links I provided that aizen really is a league above the captain class in itself. Now lets consider shunsui, one of the stronger guys around.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-6/bleach/chapter-389.html
He managed to keep with with primera espada and has been mentioned to be among the strongest captains. Yet even with a sneak attack while aizen was dealing with another captain, shunsui's attack was dealt with a measly chantless kido (it is within the realm of possibilities that it was high level as we know aizen could bypass incantations to up to the 90th level but that is still hard to argue). I guess you could argue that the fact that shunsui did not stop that with his fingers and used a kido instead is a testament to shunsui's power though.

Now another situation:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-17/bleach/chapter-389.html
In here we see aizen doing what he did earlier to ichigo. Shunsui was actually able to grasp which direction aizen went in though, that shows how much more skilled than ichigo he is and yet again a testament to his power considering he was beat up at the time.

Now, this is the last part:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-21/bleach/chapter-392.html

This is an scene which has been mentioned to have been possible thanks to the illusion. However, is there anything before this that would suggest aizen needs the illusion for such a thing? We know for a fact that aizen likes to enjoy teasing his prey before taking it out and aizen has repeatedly blitz people of the captain level easily from the front. We have also repeatedly seen that for some reason aizen's illusion disappears at the last moment before making an attack so it would really be useless for aizen to set one up and attack from the front.

Now, there is also a question as to how aizen and hinamori seemingly exchanged places. I think I have a theory based on what we have seen. First we have every reason to believe aizen is just that much faster than all the captains. Then we know he has the illusion. We also know that there is no way in hell hinamori would survive soifon's shikai and it would make no sense whatsoever for the illusion to suppress it either. In that sense, somewhere between here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-46757-15/bleach/chapter-391.html) and here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-20.html) aizen combined his illusion with his speed to grab hinamori and put her in the way of hitsugaya's attack. Even with the illusion making the switch would be outright impossible without insane speed to say the least but we also have every reason to believe aizen has that speed. I would think aizen was indeed surprised by shunsui's attack however that would be a mute point thanks to the orb/ Even then, shinigami rarely would die from such a wound....

Now, some people say yamamoto could kill aizen with a punch however there is an issue with that point.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-8/bleach/chapter-394.html
In here we actually see aizen looking straight at yamamoto's punch. In that sense, I really don't think there is a single of yamamoto's movements which yamamoto missed. Then we consider this scene from before.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-17477-1/bleach/chapter-367.html
I see a pattern here. Aizen was being attacked by two completely different people with completely different power levels however what both situations have in common is that in neither situation there was a need for aizen to dodge as his fearless underlings were capable of protecting him. Based on this, I would think aizen intentionally did not move out of the way of yama's punch since he knew wonderweiss was fine.

Now, yamamoto fought ukitake and shunsui however if he still did not manage to defeat them I would think he really is strong enough to easily defeat aizen. Yamamoto fought to a standstill with those two however if the difference really was that absurd then even holding back he should have been able to finish the fight. Even then, aizen did take out around 8 captain level people at his own leisure to say the least so its not like there aren't comparable feats.

Considering kyoka suigetsu seems to for some reason stop working right before an attack is completed I would think someone in aizen's league would indeed be capable of dodging it specially considering scenes such as this:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-17477-1/bleach/chapter-367.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-586-14/bleach/chapter-132.html
When two people in roughly the same league fight dodging attacks which get insanely close to you is by all intents and purposes possible. In that sense, we have seen a mostly consistent pattern that aizens illusion disappears at the very last moment of a strike. However, if the captains were really close to aizen in power that instant should indeed be mostly enough for them to be able to defend themselves from aizen. Even then, the only captain to show such a thing has so far been good old yama.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-9/bleach/chapter-393.html
At the very least yamamoto reacted to be able to take advantage of aizen's attack. It is proof that yamamoto is indeed a league above most captains. Whether aizen took the stab in his gut intentionally or he was just able to take advantage from the situation from that point onward it would still be something none of the other captains would have been able to do. On the other hand, if aizen did not use the illusion it would suggest he is actually faster than yamamoto however since there is every reason to believe they are roughly in the same league and aizen's attack came a bit after he had appeared behind yamamoto I would think he did use the illusion.

Based on what we have seen, aizen is at the very least even with yamamoto in terms of speed although it could be argue aizen actually has the advantage. It would also make sense that is the case considering yama is on the old side. Shinigami have shown that it is possible to evade attacks that are a milimeter away from you so it should be possible for yamamoto fight defend himself from aizen even with the illusion. Yamamoto's mere release won't kill aizen -as some people seem to believe even though we know for a fact it did not-. Yamamoto has enough power to destroy karakura town easily but we have to consider that is an attack which yamamoto for the most part set at his own leisure. In that sense, in a fight with no preparation yamamoto won't but using attacks of a magnitude even remotely similar nor we have any reason to believe he can. Yamamoto could potentially put aizen on a fire prison but what good would that do? If the prison could have been used to kill aizen I doubt yamamoto would have failed to used that option. Aizen did not really try to escape either and eventually it was furar who broke the seal so it perhaps would not be out of the realm of possibilities for aizen to escape on his own should he set his mind to it. On the other hand, if the prison is indeed strong enough to hold aizen inside then perhaps attacking from the outside is just as hard. In that sense, sealing aizen is possible however at the same time attacking from the outside would also be impossible which puts yama in a rather awkward situation as he would need to undo the illusion to attack. Even then, in a one on one situation with aizen's speed and illusion it would perhaps be more difficult to trap him in such a barrier. In terms of overall offensive power yamamoto definitely has an advantage considering aizen's abilities don't actually increase his offensive power. To sum it up:

- Yamamoto and aizen are in the same league in terms of speed with perhaps aizenh having an edge. Given that and what we have seen from other shinigami, it should still be possible for yamamoto to react to the illusion.
-Yamamoto has a definite advantage in terms of offensive power. Aizen's illusion does not increase his offensive power in the least so it makes sense. Ukitake and shunsui were able to survive fighting in melee with yamamoto so aizen being more skilled than either of them should be able to hold yamamoto in pretty much the same manner. Still, even if aizen has equal or slightly superior speed and his illusion a drawn out conflict would invariably work against him due to the difference in offensive power. Basically, aizen's best shot here is to avoid a long confrontation.

Overall, I think this fight would be a lot closer than what most people seem to think. Who knows, if aizen shikai actually had a shikai which provided him with more conventional offensive abilities he might actually be a match to yamamoto or at least come close in melee combat. I am not saying he would be better off with a more conventional shikai, his illusion is extremely insane however the approach he has to take against people with more firepower than himself is rather inconvenient to say the least. Aizen invariably has to win this battle through wit and make it as short as possible.

Miyagi
April 08, 2011, 04:41 AM
Nice post, kkck, I enjoyed reading it. :cool:


Now another situation:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-17/bleach/chapter-389.html
In here we see aizen doing what he did earlier to ichigo. Shunsui was actually able to grasp which direction aizen went in though, that shows how much more skilled than ichigo he is and yet again a testament to his power considering he was beat up at the time.

Shunsui was able to grasp Aizen's direction in your example but Yamamoto outran Shunsui and Ukitake in SS without them noticing:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-608-19/bleach/chapter-154.html

Doesn't it mean that Yamamoto is faster than Aizen?

Starrk dodged Shunsui's attacks in the same way Aizen did and he basically disappeared from Ichigo's sight back in HM in the same way Aizen toyed with Ichigo, can't we say that Aizen was as fast as Starrk, maybe a bit faster?

I think Aizen with KS can defeat Aizen with sealed sword even though they have equal speed because Aizen with sealed sword will consistently be forced to be on the defensive and react at the last moment to the attacks of Aizen with KS, IMHO Yamamoto needs to be a bit faster than Aizen to actually stand a good chance against illusions.


Now, this is the last part:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47010-21/bleach/chapter-392.html

This is an scene which has been mentioned to have been possible thanks to the illusion. However, is there anything before this that would suggest aizen needs the illusion for such a thing?

I think Aizen didn't use KS in this scene, people are overly suspicious of Aizen's abilities. :D I mean Aizen said "You're full of openings", it means Aizen is fast enough to take advantage of such an opening.

I also would like to point out that people in rage, probably due to loss of concentration, react much slower to attacks, I don't think Sui-Feng (or whatever her name is :p) and Shunsui are so much slower than Aizen that they would get speedblitzed with two other captains on their side. IMHO when Aizen said "You're full of openings", he meant "Your mental state is unstable, you lost your concentration, your reaction speed dropped considerably." Komamura stated that anger makes someone sloppy:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-45528-7/bleach/chapter-389.html

SaintSheik
April 08, 2011, 06:43 AM
Yamamoto for reasons probably stated a dozen times already. On top of that, Aizen wouldn't go out of his way to have a modified arrancar as an advantage over Yamamoto when he already had Yamamoto under complete hypnosis. Aizen is powerful and has a powerful ability but Yamamoto's power and experience gives him the edge IMHO.

Yamamoto takes this, but it would be his toughest bout in the tournament by far.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 09:21 AM
Nice post, kkck, I enjoyed reading it. :cool:



Shunsui was able to grasp Aizen's direction in your example but Yamamoto outran Shunsui and Ukitake in SS without them noticing:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-608-19/bleach/chapter-154.html

Doesn't it mean that Yamamoto is faster than Aizen?

Starrk dodged Shunsui's attacks in the same way Aizen did and he basically disappeared from Ichigo's sight back in HM in the same way Aizen toyed with Ichigo, can't we say that Aizen was as fast as Starrk, maybe a bit faster?

I think Aizen with KS can defeat Aizen with sealed sword even though they have equal speed because Aizen with sealed sword will consistently be forced to be on the defensive and react at the last moment to the attacks of Aizen with KS, IMHO Yamamoto needs to be a bit faster than Aizen to actually stand a good chance against illusions.
Not necessarily.... We already know yamamoto is faster than either shunsui or ukitake so yamamoto getting there first makes sense but in the immediate fight yamamoto does not seem able to blitz or defeat either of them. Even if there was holding back and whatnot the fight went on for an unnecessarily long amount of time didn't it?

Miyagi
April 08, 2011, 10:59 AM
Not necessarily.... We already know yamamoto is faster than either shunsui or ukitake so yamamoto getting there first makes sense but in the immediate fight yamamoto does not seem able to blitz or defeat either of them. Even if there was holding back and whatnot the fight went on for an unnecessarily long amount of time didn't it?

You're right, there's a bit of inconsistency in this part. I mean Yamamoto was so fast that not only he outran Shunsui and Ukitake but he also did it in such a way that the speed difference must have been overwhelming. How else would they fail to notice Yamamoto was passing by?

When they fought, I think such a speed difference should have led to a decisive victory but they held their own for a while. Yamamoto seemed to be winning but still. We never saw the fight and I've seen posts which say Ukitake's shikai is a good counter for RJ, my best bet is that Shunsui and Ukitake covered each other so well with excellent teamwork that even Yamamoto had a hard time finding an opening.

I don't think Isshin is much faster than Sui-Feng, Starrk or Shunsui, if faster at all, and Isshin held his own against Aizen in a one-on-one fight. If this is the case, we can think that Aizen isn't so much faster than Starrk, Starrk has similar speed feats to Aizen. All things considered, it seems to me that the speed difference between Yamamoto and Shunsui is bigger than the speed difference between Aizen and Shunsui.

I made an assumption to reach this conclusion though, feel free to dispute it. :D I assumed Starrk and Shunsui are at least as fast as Isshin but I must say Isshin doesn't strike me as the speedy type. I also think the manga slightly exaggerated Yamamoto's speed in the race which is evidenced by the fact that he didn't overwhelm Shunsui and Ukitake using his speed. IMHO Isshin's speed is on par with Shunsui's speed, Shunsui is a bit slower than Aizen and Aizen is a bit slower than Yamamoto.

cracker
April 08, 2011, 11:12 AM
You're right, there's a bit of inconsistency in this part. I mean Yamamoto was so fast that not only he outran Shunsui and Ukitake but he also did it in such a way that the speed difference must have been overwhelming. How else would they fail to notice Yamamoto was passing by?

When they fought, I think such a speed difference should have led to a decisive victory but they held their own for a while. Yamamoto seemed to be winning but still. We never saw the fight and I've seen posts which say Ukitake's shikai is a good counter for RJ, my best bet is that Shunsui and Ukitake covered each other so well with excellent teamwork that even Yamamoto had a hard time finding an opening.

I don't think Isshin is much faster than Sui-Feng, Starrk or Shunsui, if faster at all, and Isshin held his own against Aizen in a one-on-one fight. If this is the case, we can think that Aizen isn't so much faster than Starrk, Starrk has similar speed feats to Aizen. All things considered, it seems to me that the speed difference between Yamamoto and Shunsui is bigger than the speed difference between Aizen and Shunsui.

I made an assumption to reach this conclusion though, feel free to dispute it. :D I assumed Starrk and Shunsui are at least as fast as Isshin but I must say Isshin doesn't strike me as the speedy type. I also think the manga slightly exaggerated Yamamoto's speed in the race which is evidenced by the fact that he didn't overwhelm Shunsui and Ukitake using his speed. IMHO Isshin's speed is on par with Shunsui's speed, Shunsui is a bit slower than Aizen and Aizen is a bit slower than Yamamoto.

I took the whole Shunsui and Ukitake vs Yama bit similar to a dad punishing his kids...I'm pretty sure he never had the intent to kill them despite always coming across so serious. And the "fight" didn't end quickly simply because he felt like a prolonged punishment was more warranted or w/e, since obviously they should know better.

Meh, its all really conjecture anyway...

Crystal Black
April 08, 2011, 02:34 PM
Yamamoto wins this. 100% manga canon. We don't have to base this off of nothing, the simple fact that Wonderweiss was created and designed to seal Ryuujin Jakka proves this. Nothing else, Nothing more. I can't recall if Aizen ever stated he was using WW to aid and defeat him in battle. either way it was clever on Aizen's part. But unfortunately he doesn't have Ww here. So there's absolutely nothing stopping RJ and Yama-jii from wreaking havoc.

g0dzax
April 08, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'm going with Yama here.At first,I wanted to write a long post,but I'll keep it short,since you guys brought all the arguments possible:
-Aizen himself stating Yama is more powerful;
-Aizen (in a direct fight) is no tank,also he wouldn't go for headshots,he's more of a tactical fighter,he'll probably use KS to observe Yama's fighting style and create a plan;
-Yama is one helluva tank,I think he can take many slashes from Aizen withough going down;
-it IS possible with KS for Aizen to win,yet I find a bit erronous to actually think that Aizen will just use KS all the time;
-IF KS is such a HAX ABILITY,why didn't he (back in SS) used KS to kill everyone ?!he COULD have done it,yet he did not,this is implying that KS is not so hax,the most pressure is put on the word CAN,if Aizen CAN use KS to create illusion it doesn't imply the fact the he WILL use KS,cause if he could have made everyone back in SS to think that he dissappeared he could have killed 'em all with ease,yet he didn't;
-ultimately,KS controls the five senses of a person,yet Yama(well...all shinigamis)seem to posses a sixth sense that allows them to localize the source of reiatsu and determine who's reiatsu is,thus even if Aizen uses KS to make Yama think that he dissappeared in the sky (whilst Aizen is actually going towards Yama) I doubt Yama (besides the five senses) would not notice a reiatsu monster like Aizen coming towards him;


Is it taken in consideration that this is a tie,or either that Yama would suicide and kill both Aizen and himself?It'd be nice to see both Yama and Aizen as the Champions of this tournament.

AlB
April 08, 2011, 03:34 PM
Alright people, let's get this straight.

Aizen specifically mentiones that he is afraid of full capabilities of RJ's Flames, not Yama himself.
And what do you knooow: Yama has no access to Bankai here :amuse
He's going down :occa

fusionshogun
April 08, 2011, 03:55 PM
If they were to fight, what's to stop Aizen from getting caught exactly like he did in the manga? They fought already, I don't know where all the debate is coming from. If Wonderweiss had not intervened and sealed Ryuujin Jakka, then Aizen (apparently) would have died in Ennetsu Jigoku. I always thought it was interesting that the combined energy of Ennetsu Jigoku simultaneously released wasn't enough to actually kill Yamamoto; to me it always made me wonder if Yamamoto would have died in Ennetsu Jigoku like he implied when talking to Aizen about it. I suppose that the full power of Ennetsu Jigoku hadn't been released prior to it being sealed, but Yamamoto's state following Wonderweiss's explosion makes it seem like he could have survived. Either way, the entry for Yamamoto says that he has access to Ennetsu Jigoku, and the manga shows us that without Wonderweiss, Aizen feared Ennetsu Jigoku. Aizen said himself that Yamamoto's fighting power was too great for Aizen to defeat himself, and as such he had to use the Hougyoku to create a being by erasing every other aspect of that being and replacing it with the single purpose of sealing Ryuujin Jakka. I voted for Yamamoto because I think that the evidence in the manga strongly implies that Yamamoto in single combat with Aizen would be able to survive and eventually emerge victorious.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 05:26 PM
Wouldn't enetsu jigoku result in a tie though? Without the plot elements which the manga had, enetsu jigoku is just a suicidal ploy which serves no purpose in this thread. In the manga it would have been considered a victory for yama since he would have stopped aizen from achieving his objective under his won term but that definitely is not the case here. That said, we don't have a single good reason to believe such a technique would be a factor in this fight since we have no reason to believe yama could make the technique without time to prepare himself. Heck, yamamoto had to get a hold of aizen by allowing himself to get stab in the gut so unless yamamoto pulls that much aizen would pretty much walk away from the technique. As for yamamoto surviving the explosion, I don't think it means he would have survived the actual technique. I really doubt the technique was originally meant to simply explode. I would think the technique was meant to work in a certain way and have a special effect which would be more dangerous than a simple explosion. Whatever special effect and ability the technique would have had was essentially lost when the power was sealed within wonderweiss.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 08, 2011, 05:36 PM
Alright people, let's get this straight.

Aizen specifically mentiones that he is afraid of full capabilities of RJ's Flames, not Yama himself.
And what do you knooow: Yama has no access to Bankai here :amuse
He's going down :occa

Where exactly did he say that?

Please post a link because I remember reading that he knew Yama was FAR more powerful then himself NOT that RJ bankai is neccesary to beat him.

Its still so funny that Aizen fans think they know Aizen better then Aizen himself knows and not to mention the author of this manga Kubo.

Aizen and Kubo BOTH says that he will lose and yet you guys still believe he will win.

Takahashi
April 08, 2011, 05:45 PM
If they were to fight, what's to stop Aizen from getting caught exactly like he did in the manga? They fought already, I don't know where all the debate is coming from. If Wonderweiss had not intervened and sealed Ryuujin Jakka, then Aizen (apparently) would have died in Ennetsu Jigoku.

Three things wrong with that.

1. Yama won't know what KS does, nor will he know it's activated simply by sight.

2. Yama had 6+ months to figure out how to beat KS, to say he'll do the same in a fight where he starts off with zero knowledge of it just doesn't make sense.

3. Enetsu Jigoku was being prepared for a LONG, LONG time before it was ready. Not to mention it was a suicide attack.


Yamamoto's fighting power was too great for Aizen to defeat himself, and as such he had to use the Hougyoku to create a being by erasing every other aspect of that being and replacing it with the single purpose of sealing Ryuujin Jakka. I voted for Yamamoto because I think that the evidence in the manga strongly implies that Yamamoto in single combat with Aizen would be able to survive and eventually emerge victorious.

Aizen's a smart guy, he comes prepared. Hell, he even made back of the neck protector despite being so hax.

There's a difference between Aizen needing something to win, and doing it just to stay on the safe side.

AlB
April 08, 2011, 05:47 PM
Where exactly did he say that?

Please post a link because I remember reading that he knew Yama was FAR more powerful then himself NOT that RJ bankai is neccesary to beat him.

Its still so funny that Aizen fans think they know Aizen better then Aizen himself knows and not to mention the author of this manga Kubo.

Aizen and Kubo BOTH says that he will lose and yet you guys still believe he will win.

Didn't he say "I would lose to RJ which is the strongest Zan" and not "I would lose to you?" The difference is huge, you know.

And come on, Yama sacrifised his left arm for a freaking Hado #96 and still all it did to Aizen was put a couple of bruises on the guy :notrust I mean, really?

And before anybody gets started on "Aizen had Hogyoku implanted" let me just say this: Hogyoku does not decrease the damage taken (e.g. Ichigo's GT) it simply regenerates. So Yama's point blank hado #96 at the expense of his arm was useless.
He is also limited to Shikai. He has no time to prepare Suicide Tech. And even if he had - it would be a tie.

Random101
April 08, 2011, 05:48 PM
He had a month, if that. And frankly I doubt he needed that long to come up with "Hey, maybe I'm so awesome I can sense a sword piercing me even if all 5 of my senses are controlled." I'd wager that's something he had before, as I can't really see him training that.

And if it can be trained the Vizards are completely and utterly retarded.

HaouLelouch
April 08, 2011, 05:51 PM
lol.. the same could be said to yama. why prepare and bring along capts n vice to fkt. cant yama barehanded/shikai/bankai just solo aizen + his minions alone? cant unohana smack er brain twice before saying its only ichigo who can beat KS Aizen,, ermm. yama is in FKT too duhhh..

thats why Aizen will rape Yama with ease

This simple and short post basically annihilated the majority of the 'yama wins' arguments in the last 4 pages (especially the ridiculous essay one post above). I had to make an account to praise your genius sir.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 05:53 PM
Didn't he say "I would lose to RJ which is the strongest Zan" and not "I would lose to you?" The difference is huge, you know.

And come on, Yama sacrifised his left arm for a freaking Hado #96 and still all it did to Aizen was put a couple of bruises on the guy :notrust I mean, really?

And before anybody gets started on "Aizen had Hogyoku implanted" let me just say this: Hogyoku does not decrease the damage taken (e.g. Ichigo's GT) it simply regenerates. So Yama's point blank hado #96 at the expense of his arm was useless.
He is also limited to Shikai. He has no time to prepare Suicide Tech. And even if he had - it would be a tie.

based on what we actually saw, the orb did not even regenerate aizen's stamina. Why else would he have reached his limit while fighting ishin? Any attacked aizen survived were resisted mostly on his own merits.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 08, 2011, 05:59 PM
Didn't he say "I would lose to RJ which is the strongest Zan" and not "I would lose to you?" The difference is huge, you know.

And come on, Yama sacrifised his left arm for a freaking Hado #96 and still all it did to Aizen was put a couple of bruises on the guy :notrust I mean, really?

And before anybody gets started on "Aizen had Hogyoku implanted" let me just say this: Hogyoku does not decrease the damage taken (e.g. Ichigo's GT) it simply regenerates. So Yama's point blank hado #96 at the expense of his arm was useless.
He is also limited to Shikai. He has no time to prepare Suicide Tech. And even if he had - it would be a tie.

How can you get Aizen would lose only to RJ's bankai from that bolded post?

He just praised it as the strongest Zan he never said that it would require the full power "bankai" inorder to beat him.

He did however point out that Yama's power FAR outweighs his own.

AlB
April 08, 2011, 06:27 PM
How can you get Aizen would lose only to RJ's bankai from that bolded post?

He just praised it as the strongest Zan he never said that it would require the full power "bankai" inorder to beat him.

He did however point out that Yama's power FAR outweighs his own.

Yamamoto's shikai does not appear to be OMFGIAMINSTAPWNZED for captains of Shunsui's and Ukitake's levels. Why do you think it would be for Aizen? I understand that he wasn't going all out against his students but still. Yamamoto's shikai is deadly, from what we have seen in manga, only given enough preparation time. And honestly, I don't see smart guy like Aizen pulling a coup without being able to withstand even a shikai of cap-commander's.

Where did he say that? I honestly don't remember that.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 08, 2011, 06:31 PM
Yamamoto's shikai does not appear to be OMFGIAMINSTAPWNZED for captains of Shunsui's and Ukitake's levels. Why do you think it would be for Aizen? I understand that he wasn't going all out against his students but still. Yamamoto's shikai is deadly, from what we have seen in manga, only given enough preparation time. And honestly, I don't see smart guy like Aizen pulling a coup without being able to withstand even a shikai of cap-commander's.

Where did he say that? I honestly don't remember that.

It doesn't matter what happened in the fight vs Shunsui and Ukitake.

All that matters is that the manga sais and proves that Aizen knows he would lose by

a. making Wonderweiss in the first place

and

b. saying so himself


And are you asking where did Aizen say Yama's power FAR outweighs his own?

If so here is a link.;)
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

ShootToKill
April 08, 2011, 06:46 PM
It doesn't matter what happened in the fight vs Shunsui and Ukitake.

All that matters is that the manga sais and proves that Aizen knows he would lose by

a. making Wonderweiss in the first place

and

b. saying so himself


And are you asking where did Aizen say Yama's power FAR outweighs his own?

If so here is a link.;)
http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html
The difference between this fight and the fight in the manga: Yama has no preparation time, hence he will not be able to instantly use Ennetsu Jigoku as he did in his fight against Aizen in FKT. Yama clearly believed that this and only this technique was enough to destroy Aizen, otherwise why would he sacrifice himself and the remaining Captains?

Aizen knew that in FKT, Yama would have had time to prepare this technique, so he brought WW as a failsafe. Here however, no Ennetsu Jigoku = no WW needed - Aizen can, I believe, provided that he uses KS intelligently, win this reasonably quickly.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
April 08, 2011, 06:55 PM
The difference between this fight and the fight in the manga: Yama has no preparation time, hence he will not be able to instantly use Ennetsu Jigoku as he did in his fight against Aizen in FKT. Yama clearly believed that this and only this technique was enough to destroy Aizen, otherwise why would he sacrifice himself and the remaining Captains?

Aizen knew that in FKT, Yama would have had time to prepare this technique, so he brought WW as a failsafe. Here however, no Ennetsu Jigoku = no WW needed - Aizen can, I believe, provided that he uses KS intelligently, win this reasonably quickly.

What your trying to point out is all speculation on your part.

True this battle has different fighting "circumstances" but the FACT is that Aizen pointed out that Yama's power far outweighs his own and that in a straight FAIR fight he would lose.

He did not say that he would not be able to win had Yama not had preperation time as your trying to point out.

If anything as evidenced in the Manga it was Aizen who trully needed the prep time not Yama.

Miyagi
April 08, 2011, 06:57 PM
I don't think Ennetsu Jigoku is a suicidal technique, it's like saying Hitsugaya's Hyoten Hyakkaso is a suicidal technique because it can kill Hitsugaya if he catches his opponent and lets the snow freeze both him and his opponent.

It's also hard to believe that it was the first time in his life that Yamamoto was using this technique. Actually Shunsui, back in SS arc, implied that such a technique could kill everybody around. Didn't Shunsui and Ukitake go far away to make sure nobody would get hurt, likely due to a possible use of Ennetsu Jigoku in combat?

We know that the force of WW's explosion was strong enough to reduce everything in a huge area to ashes and this power comes from Yamamoto. Yamamoto can freely release this power against Aizen because this time he won't be fighting in a fake town surrounded by barriers which he had to keep intact.

On top of fighting in neutral ground in which Yamamoto can freely create havoc, Aizen also won't be having a hougyoku in his chest which is another disadvantage for Aizen. Aizen refrained from fighting Yamamoto even when he had a regenerative orb, IMHO if Aizen did evaluate the odds in such a match-up, he would see himself even less likely to win.

I don't even mention the possibility that Yamamoto can attack and defeat Aizen before Aizen can use KS. Aizen didn't use KS against Isshin, so it may not be feasible to use KS against someone who constantly attacks you. Tsukisama has a good post somewhere which explains why Aizen may fail to use KS successfully against a powerful opponent.

If Aizen uses KS, then I think it's a "whether Yamamoto can use EJ or not" situation. IMHO Yamamoto can use it in combat, this is what Shunsui and Ukitake implied in SS arc. Will Yamamoto have enough time to prepare the technique? I think he can survive long enough, it didn't take long for Aizen to cut down other captains while Yamamoto was preparing the technique.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 07:10 PM
The difference between this fight and the fight in the manga: Yama has no preparation time, hence he will not be able to instantly use Ennetsu Jigoku as he did in his fight against Aizen in FKT. Yama clearly believed that this and only this technique was enough to destroy Aizen, otherwise why would he sacrifice himself and the remaining Captains?

Aizen knew that in FKT, Yama would have had time to prepare this technique, so he brought WW as a failsafe. Here however, no Ennetsu Jigoku = no WW needed - Aizen can, I believe, provided that he uses KS intelligently, win this reasonably quickly.

I don't think aizen knew of that technique in particular. He knew that ryujin jakka had the most power behind it than any zampakuto and based on what we saw it would seem yamamoto really was the only plausible threat to aizen so it would make sense for aizen to plan that ahead. I do think an interesting point was brought in recently. One way or another both fighters are limited to shikai in this fight. Ryujin Jakka might be the strongest zampakuto in SS however was it really shikai aizen considered a threat or did he think it would be bankai that would overpower him? Yama's shikai has shown an abnormal amount of power by shikai standards however did we actually see anything which suggests yamamoto's shikai would be that much of an overkill against aizen? Things were said however just what was said would be a tad short of what we actually saw. We also know for a fact yamamoto does have bankai and it would make the most sense that aizen would be most wary of this particular level of release. We don't know what either of their bankais are but if they follow the regular patterns regularly shown in the manga then what we have is that yamamoto is able to bring forth something with a fighting capacity 10 times greater than ryujin jakka while aizen in turn might bring either a more powerful illusion or something completely unrelated to an illusion in which case it would have to be faced against the full might of ryujin jakka directly. Ennetsu jigoku was, IMO, able to bring forth that much of yamamoto's power because it was a very specialized application of his sword, it required him a certain amount of time and him to input a certain amount of power. For that and since bankai does not actually increase your reiatsu but rather consumes a lot more of it I kinda doubt the level of power ennetsu jigoku had could be brought forth just like that but it still is a force to be reckoned with.

It even makes sense, shikai is not the full strength of yama, bankai is. The power yamamoto had is at large said to be immense however what we actually saw did not really live up to that. If in turn we consider bankai and the patterns we have seen, then yamamoto's power should by all intents and purposes be what it has been stated to be. If that is the case then an illusion would really not be enough as the indiscriminate destruction that such a thing could bring forth could really cover huge areas. In turn we have no reason to believe yama's shikai would simply one shot aizen. In a fight were both guys are actually limited to shikai it is entirely possible the tactical advantages which KS brings would be enough to deal with yama. In turn, the real indiscriminate destruction usually brought by bankai would perhaps eliminate this tactical advantage (I don't think it would quite live up to enetsu jigoku for reasons I already stated but it would still be something quite brutal).

ShootToKill
April 08, 2011, 07:22 PM
What your trying to point out is all speculation on your part.

True this battle has different fighting "circumstances" but the FACT is that Aizen pointed out that Yama's power far outweighs his own and that in a straight FAIR fight he would lose.

He did not say that he would not be able to win had Yama not had preperation time as your trying to point out.

If anything as evidenced in the Manga it was Aizen who trully needed the prep time not Yama.
What do we know?

1) Yama had preparation time against Aizen in FKT.
2) Enntsu Jigoku required considerable preparation time.
3) Yama did not attempt any weaker techniques on Aizen, implying, due to the considerable cost of using EJ, that they would not have worked.

Now, before you reply please read this - I am not denying that Yamamoto is more powerful than Aizen. After all, Aizen's Zan relies on illusions to make it so dangerous, not raw power.

However, what I am saying is, Aizen brought WW along because he knew that Yama would have had time to prepare, and hence could use a technique he could not avoid even with KS. Without preparation time, despite Yama being more powerful than Aizen, he has nothing Aizen can't avoid with the use of KS, otherwise, as stated above, he would have used them and not tried to sacrifice himself or his comrades.

My main point is that Aizen only needed WW because Yama had preparation time for an attack Aizen couldn't even avoid with KS. Since Yama will not have the preparation time for this attack in this fight, Aizen does not need WW to defeat him. Whatever Aizen said about Yama defeating him is therefore meaningless here, because Yama does not have access to the only technique he would have used to kill Aizen. Aizen was referring to that very moment, where indeed, without WW he would have been killed. In this situation however, Aizen wins.

Please don't just repost your previous argument, I believe I have provided a logical basis for why it isn't valid in this circumstance.
[hr]
@kkck I largely agree - who knows what Yama's Bankai could do to Aizen (and vice versa). I myself think it was quite a large hole in the plot that if Yama's Bankai was capable of destroying Aizen, which it definitely should be, why the hell did he use a Shikai tech which would kill him and all the Captains in the vicinity? However, whatever reason Yama had for not using Bankai, it seems Ennetsu Jigoku was the only Shikai tech which he believed could destroy Aizen, otherwise why choose something which had such a high cost? Therefore, since this technique required preparation, Yama can't use it here, and as such, I believe that he has no way of taking Aizen out in Shikai (he can't use Bankai here) once he is under KS.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 07:45 PM
@kkck I largely agree - who knows what Yama's Bankai could do to Aizen (and vice versa). I myself think it was quite a large hole in the plot that if Yama's Bankai was capable of destroying Aizen, which it definitely should be, why the hell did he use a Shikai tech which would kill him and all the Captains in the vicinity? However, whatever reason Yama had for not using Bankai, it seems Ennetsu Jigoku was the only Shikai tech which he believed could destroy Aizen, otherwise why choose something which had such a high cost? Therefore, since this technique required preparation, Yama can't use it here, and as such, I believe that he has no way of taking Aizen out in Shikai (he can't use Bankai here) once he is under KS.

I think there are two reasons for which yama did not use bankai:

1.- He did not need to.
2.- He did not get to use it.

The main thing for which he used his zampakuto was to make enetsu jigoku. As yama had time to make the technique going bankai was largely unnecessary. If anything, going bankai would have likely hindered the whole process as bankai does not increase power but rather consumes a lot of it a lot faster. In that sense, using bankai would not necessarily have resulted in something more powerful and perhaps something which consumes so much energy would have been a bit on the unwieldy side (not saying yama can't control his bankai perfectly but it would make sense his shikai would be more practical for making a kido-ish technique which would have yielded the same result as yama had the freedom to put in as much power as he wanted to).

Then he did not get to use it because wonderweiss simply sealed ryujin jakka. it's that simple.

CeroOskuraz
April 08, 2011, 07:46 PM
Yamamoto gives Aizen a horrible beat down

Anyways, I found some saving grace for Aizen supporters http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=37962374&postcount=33

ShootToKill
April 08, 2011, 08:10 PM
I think there are two reasons for which yama did not use bankai:

1.- He did not need to.
2.- He did not get to use it.

The main thing for which he used his zampakuto was to make enetsu jigoku. As yama had time to make the technique going bankai was largely unnecessary. If anything, going bankai would have likely hindered the whole process as bankai does not increase power but rather consumes a lot of it a lot faster. In that sense, using bankai would not necessarily have resulted in something more powerful and perhaps something which consumes so much energy would have been a bit on the unwieldy side (not saying yama can't control his bankai perfectly but it would make sense his shikai would be more practical for making a kido-ish technique which would have yielded the same result as yama had the freedom to put in as much power as he wanted to).

Then he did not get to use it because wonderweiss simply sealed ryujin jakka. it's that simple.
I don't really know what point you're trying to make. If his Bankai techs were more powerful than Ennetsu Jigoku, then, since EJ was going to kill everyone within its radius, including Yama himself, why didn't he use his Bankai? Unless of course any of his Bankai techniques would have also required him to sacrifice himself - which wouldn't make for a very good Bankai if you ask me :D

However, he can't use Bankai here, so it's not especially relevant. The point is, I have given evidence (not proof, but a strong indication) that EJ is his strongest Shikai technique, and the only one capable of one-shotting Aizen. Since this required preparation time, he won't use it here, and therefore, Aizen, despite being technically less powerful, can use KS to secure a victory.
[hr]

I don't think Ennetsu Jigoku is a suicidal technique
Think again. (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-393/page015.html)


It's also hard to believe that it was the first time in his life that Yamamoto was using this technique. Actually Shunsui, back in SS arc, implied that such a technique could kill everybody around. Didn't Shunsui and Ukitake go far away to make sure nobody would get hurt, likely due to a possible use of Ennetsu Jigoku in combat?
No, it stands to reason that, due to his sheer power and the nature of his Zanpaktou, pretty much any of Yama's attacks would have considerable collateral damage, the likes of which could incinerate VC level or lower characters, some of whom were around before Shunsui and Ukitake took off.


We know that the force of WW's explosion was strong enough to reduce everything in a huge area to ashes and this power comes from Yamamoto. Yamamoto can freely release this power against Aizen because this time he won't be fighting in a fake town surrounded by barriers which he had to keep intact.
Don't really know what you're talking about here - are you saying that he didn't use Ennetsu Jigoku to its full extent vs Aizen? It would have killed him anyway, so a more powerful version would be redundant.


On top of fighting in neutral ground in which Yamamoto can freely create havoc, Aizen also won't be having a hougyoku in his chest which is another disadvantage for Aizen. Aizen refrained from fighting Yamamoto even when he had a regenerative orb, IMHO if Aizen did evaluate the odds in such a match-up, he would see himself even less likely to win.
I don't believe the Hogyoku really enhanced Aizen's abilities prior to his transformations.


I don't even mention the possibility that Yamamoto can attack and defeat Aizen before Aizen can use KS. Aizen didn't use KS against Isshin, so it may not be feasible to use KS against someone who constantly attacks you. Tsukisama has a good post somewhere which explains why Aizen may fail to use KS successfully against a powerful opponent.
Yama's release doesn't seem especially fast, there's no reason to believe his release is faster than Aizen's.


If Aizen uses KS, then I think it's a "whether Yamamoto can use EJ or not" situation. IMHO Yamamoto can use it in combat, this is what Shunsui and Ukitake implied in SS arc. Will Yamamoto have enough time to prepare the technique? I think he can survive long enough, it didn't take long for Aizen to cut down other captains while Yamamoto was preparing the technique.
If Aizen uses KS immediately and attacks Yama quickly and repeatedly, I don't think he'll get the chance to use EJ. In the worst case scenario, where Yama does use EJ, as AlB I believe stated above, it will be a tie anyway.

kkck
April 08, 2011, 08:12 PM
I don't really know what point you're trying to make. If his Bankai techs were more powerful than Ennetsu Jigoku, then, since EJ was going to kill everyone within its radius, including Yama himself, why didn't he use his Bankai? Unless of course any of his Bankai techniques would have also required him to sacrifice himself - which wouldn't make for a very good Bankai if you ask me :D

However, he can't use Bankai here, so it's not especially relevant. The point is, I have given evidence (not proof, but a strong indication) that EJ is his strongest Shikai technique, and the only one capable of one-shotting Aizen. Since this required preparation time, he won't use it here, and therefore, Aizen, despite being technically less powerful, can use KS to secure a victory.

You are missing my point. Bankai does not increase the actual amount of power someone has. Lets say yamamoto has a total amount of power of 100000. That number will basically remain constant whether he uses bankai or shikai for the most part. The difference is that while shikai might consume 1 point of energy per second, his bankai might do 10 per second. At the very least that is how I understood bankai worked in the manga. Now, obviously that would imply bankai provides a dramatic increase in attack power and that is indeed consistent with what we have seen in the manga. Now, when yamamoto used ennetsu jigoku he used his shikai and inputed a specific amount of power. In that sense, lets say yamamoto placed 10000 points of power into the whole thing. Does it make a difference whether he used shikai or bankai to put in that amount of power? Not really as 10000 points of power are invariably just that. If yamamoto has enough time then there really is not reason for the ennetsu jigoku to not have had as much power as yama wanted indifferently from shikai or bankai.

ShootToKill
April 08, 2011, 08:19 PM
You are missing my point. Bankai does not increase the actual amount of power someone has. Lets say yamamoto has a total amount of power of 100000. That number will basically remain constant whether he uses bankai or shikai for the most part. The difference is that while shikai might consume 1 point of energy per second, his bankai might do 10 per second. At the very least that is how I understood bankai worked in the manga. Now, obviously that would imply bankai provides a dramatic increase in attack power and that is indeed consistent with what we have seen in the manga. Now, when yamamoto used ennetsu jigoku he used his shikai and inputed a specific amount of power. In that sense, lets say yamamoto placed 10000 points of power into the whole thing. Does it make a difference whether he used shikai or bankai to put in that amount of power? Not really as 10000 points of power are invariably just that. If yamamoto has enough time then there really is not reason for the ennetsu jigoku to not have had as much power as yama wanted indifferently from shikai or bankai.
I'm not contesting this - but you're still not making what you're trying to accomplish in your posts very clear. I believe you are saying that his Bankai techs aren't necessarily more powerful than EJ. I'm saying it doesn't matter - his Bankai isn't being used here anyway so I don't know why it entered the discussion in the first place, and my point is that EJ is the only technique accessible to him in Shikai which can definitely take Aizen out, otherwise he would have used a non-suicidal one. Therefore, Aizen doesn't need WW if Yama doesn't have time to prepare EJ, hence Aizen wins.

We could discuss for hours whether Bankai actually increases Reiatsu or cutting power or just provides access to techniques which consume more Reiatsu or whatever, but for this fight it doesn't matter since neither Aizen or Yama can use Bankai :)

ninjabot
April 09, 2011, 03:09 AM
Aizen wins. Doesn't matter how much stronger you are than your opponent if you can't lay a finger/sword on him thanks to you mistaken nearby trees and rocks for your target. And if having his sword pierced within him is the only way Yama-jii can tell where the real Aizen is, and he waits for this intentionally, then you guys'll have a tough time convincing me that Aizen won't just go for the decapitation instead of a lame old stab.

Hell, he could activate a Black Coffin on his head with full incantation without Yama even noticing by disguising himself as a fluffy cloud on high.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 04:27 AM
ShootToKill, thanks for the reply but I believe you missed some of my points, so I'll reiterate them:

Hitsugaya's Hyoten Hyakkaso would kill himself if Hitsugaya grabbed Harribel's arm, they would both freeze to death, Hitsugaya couldn't escape because he would technically be like a Siamese twin and any attack that would kill Harribel would also kill him.

The point is Ennetsu Jigoku, just like Hyoten Hyakkaso, is a suicidal technique under certain circumstances but these circumstances aren't valid in this fight because Yamamoto doesn't have to grab Aizen's arm and sacrifice himself.

In FKT Yamamoto had to restrain his fire because the barrier should have been kept intact. Since Yamamoto had to restrain his fire, he had to make sure Aizen was in this restricted area, this is why he had to hold Aizen in this place by grabbing his arm. Yamamoto has no such restriction in a neutral place, there are no barriers to protect, so he can freely spread his fire, he doesn't have to be concerned about whether his fire will reach Aizen.

In SS arc, Shunsui said Yamamoto's attacks would kill them all:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-153/page015.html

The attack would kill Shunsui and Ukitake and it would also kill other VCs and captains, who would run away when Yamamoto released his sword but running away wouldn't be enough. Shunsui and Ukitake went far away to make sure nobody would get hurt:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-154/page016.html

IMHO Shunsui and Ukitake were referring to Ennetsu Jigoku, Yamamoto's other attacks wouldn't have such a huge area of effect and we know Yamamoto's lesser attacks could be handled to some extent by Ukitake's shikai and it wouldn't kill VCs and captains who stood at a safe distance.

Hougyoku didn't increase Aizen's stats but it had immense regenerative powers. IMHO it was still a huge bonus because it would make any attack less than Ennetsu Jigoku useless, it would heal Aizen if he got hurt. IMHO Aizen would be wary of going anywhere near Yamamoto if he didn't have the hougyoku, he wouldn't risk getting hurt by a possible attack from Yamamoto.

Yamamoto's release is instantaneous:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-338/page019.html

IMHO there's a pretty good chance that Yamamoto can kill Aizen before Aizen can use KS. If Aizen uses KS, then it's all up to interpretation. I think Yamamoto can survive long enough to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku and when he uses it, it's all over.

IMHO attacks like Black Coffin would be useless because Yamamoto would simply destroy it using his fire, so Aizen didn't bother to use such strategy against Yamamoto and created WW to do the job. Aizen didn't try to kill Yamamoto in SS arc, I think it should give a hint about what is viable against Yamamoto and what is not. :D

emanresu
April 09, 2011, 04:33 AM
Pls do bear in mind that hado 96 didnt hurt Aizen. So EJ cant kill Aizen.

fusionshogun
April 09, 2011, 06:52 AM
Three things wrong with that.

1. Yama won't know what KS does, nor will he know it's activated simply by sight.

2. Yama had 6+ months to figure out how to beat KS, to say he'll do the same in a fight where he starts off with zero knowledge of it just doesn't make sense.

3. Enetsu Jigoku was being prepared for a LONG, LONG time before it was ready. Not to mention it was a suicide attack.



Aizen's a smart guy, he comes prepared. Hell, he even made back of the neck protector despite being so hax.

There's a difference between Aizen needing something to win, and doing it just to stay on the safe side.

Technically, even the readers aren't aware of how Kyouka Suigetsu is invoked for the first time. All that we've heard is that he took all the lieutenants and showed him his shikai in some kind of demonstration, and through that demonstration was able to catch them all under Kyouka Suigetsu. Saying something like "activated simply by sight" implies that you're sure that the way that Aizen puts people under Kyouka Suigetsu is just by having them see his shikai or it's release or something, and that is nothing more than an assumption. They both have zero knowledge of each other's powers, and are allowed no outside preparation, is that correct? Is Yamamoto under Kyouka Suigetsu before the fight begins? I don't know if that's been determined or not. Sure, if he is under it from the start, and has no idea what it can do, then he is disadvantaged. I was under the impression that they both have a clean slate and start fresh for this confrontation. You saying how long it took to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku is also an assumption. It's not clear whether or not Yamamoto needed the entirety of the time that the captains were fighting Aizen in order to set up Ennetsu Jigoku. From what you're saying, it seems like you're biased in favor of Aizen because you're making the assumptions such as: Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu is activated instantaneously and only by sight (and you're assuming Yamamoto cannot avoid that in any way), and that it will take an unwieldy amount of time to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku such that Yamamoto cannot feasibly use it on one-on-one combat. Neither of these ideas have been proven in the manga. The latter has been implied by Aizen, and it's a loose implication that doesn't set any parameter regarding the actual amount of time Yamamoto spent preparing the technique. I agree that Yamamoto said that he and Aizen would die in the flames of Ennetsu Jigoku; however, you must admit that it is somewhat contradictory for Yamamoto to then tank Wonderweiss's explosion (an explosion that at least contained part of the energy that he had released with Ennetsu Jigoku) and survive. Aizen even regarded that the devastating power of Wonderweiss's explosion would have increased such that it would destroy a radius wider than the city. This makes it seem like it's possible that Wonderweiss's release of energy was at least on par if not greater than the original in terms of it's lethality. Finally, there is actually no way you can prove that Aizen did not need Wonderweiss to defeat Yamamoto, because he defeated Yamamoto with Wonderweiss in the manga. Acting like Wonderweiss was just a precaution is only further evidence of your bias.

zimbardo
April 09, 2011, 07:13 AM
Technically, even the readers aren't aware of how Kyouka Suigetsu is invoked for the first time. All that we've heard is that he took all the lieutenants and showed him his shikai in some kind of demonstration, and through that demonstration was able to catch them all under Kyouka Suigetsu. Saying something like "activated simply by sight" implies that you're sure that the way that Aizen puts people under Kyouka Suigetsu is just by having them see his shikai or it's release or something, and that is nothing more than an assumption.
And it is also implied that Aizen conducts the "ritual" here. (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-371/page007.html) However as there is no real sense of time here, it is not really possible to draw on how long Barragan had to actually look at Aizens Zanpactou to actually recieve the full effects of KS. Simmilar to the discussion with how long it took Aizen to recieve the effects of Shinji's Zanpactou (see the Shinji vs Kyouraku thread - Perhaps from this (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69162&page=11) page onwards?). As KS has no obvious sign when someone is under its effects - it can be hard to determine if Baragan was instantly under the effects when Aizen said Kyouka Suigetsu (sp?) or, when it took until much later when he showed Barragan that he was under the effects.


They both have zero knowledge of each other's powers, and are allowed no outside preparation, is that correct? Is Yamamoto under Kyouka Suigetsu before the fight begins? I don't know if that's been determined or not.
And that is true, there is no prep on either side and Yamamoto starts the fight free of the influence of KS.

Takahashi
April 09, 2011, 08:03 AM
Technically, even the readers aren't aware of how Kyouka Suigetsu is invoked for the first time. All that we've heard is that he took all the lieutenants and showed him his shikai in some kind of demonstration, and through that demonstration was able to catch them all under Kyouka Suigetsu. Saying something like "activated simply by sight" implies that you're sure that the way that Aizen puts people under Kyouka Suigetsu is just by having them see his shikai or it's release or something, and that is nothing more than an assumption.

If Barragan didn't exist, you would have a good point. Problem is, we've already seen it in real time.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-29787-8/bleach/chapter-371.html

Barragan looks at his sword.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-29787-12/bleach/chapter-371.html

Barragan declines his offer, and Aizen releases KS so Barragan can see what has really happened while he was laughing at him.

Using KS really IS that easy. At MOST you could call it less than 10 seconds to kick in, and even then it would be a stretch just to find some weakness with KS.



They both have zero knowledge of each other's powers, and are allowed no outside preparation, is that correct? Is Yamamoto under Kyouka Suigetsu before the fight begins? I don't know if that's been determined or not. Sure, if he is under it from the start, and has no idea what it can do, then he is disadvantaged. I was under the impression that they both have a clean slate and start fresh for this confrontation.

He has no idea what it can do at the start, and as we've seen from Barragan, the mere act of drawing his sword is sufficient.



You saying how long it took to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku is also an assumption. It's not clear whether or not Yamamoto needed the entirety of the time that the captains were fighting Aizen in order to set up Ennetsu Jigoku. From what you're saying, it seems like you're biased in favor of Aizen because you're making the assumptions such as: Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu is activated instantaneously and only by sight (and you're assuming Yamamoto cannot avoid that in any way), and that it will take an unwieldy amount of time to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku such that Yamamoto cannot feasibly use it on one-on-one combat.

Aizen's activation of KS, like I've shown you, has already been proven to be piss easy to do. Yama never looking at Aizen's sword in a sword fight is an impossibility. In fact, most carefully observe releases to get clues as to how they operate.

Ennetsu Jogoku is indeed an assumption. But considering Yama actually mentioned that he had been preparing the attack means at the very least it requires more time than KS does. In addition, Ennetsu Jogoku was only attempted to be used AFTER he thought he'd found a way around KS. He doesn't have 6+ months to figure it out this time.



Neither of these ideas have been proven in the manga. The latter has been implied by Aizen, and it's a loose implication that doesn't set any parameter regarding the actual amount of time Yamamoto spent preparing the technique. I agree that Yamamoto said that he and Aizen would die in the flames of Ennetsu Jigoku; however, you must admit that it is somewhat contradictory for Yamamoto to then tank Wonderweiss's explosion (an explosion that at least contained part of the energy that he had released with Ennetsu Jigoku) and survive.

I'm not saying Yama tanking it was unimpressive or anything, but it's irrelevant if he's hypnotized.



Aizen even regarded that the devastating power of Wonderweiss's explosion would have increased such that it would destroy a radius wider than the city. This makes it seem like it's possible that Wonderweiss's release of energy was at least on par if not greater than the original in terms of it's lethality. Finally, there is actually no way you can prove that Aizen did not need Wonderweiss to defeat Yamamoto, because he defeated Yamamoto with Wonderweiss in the manga. Acting like Wonderweiss was just a precaution is only further evidence of your bias.

No, no it isn't. There's a reason Yama risked a fatal blow just to ensure he could catch Aizen. Because KS makes that attack, and any other worthless.

I'm not biased towards Aizen. I simply realize that complete control of the 5 senses can only be beaten one way, and Yama is unaware of ALL of KS's mechanics.

Think about it, everything, and I mean EVERYTHING you know is because of your 5 senses. Your 5 senses are what control your reality. If someone can control those, they control your reality. Think you're swinging your sword at someone? Well maybe KS is just making you feel, see, and hear you're doing so. It's impossible to tell, and that's exactly why Aizen DIDN'T use KS on Dangai Ichigo. Because if he did, Aizen would win, and Bleach would be over. His ability is so hax that the author refused to let him use it so he could be beaten, that speaks for itself.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 08:42 AM
IMHO the manga intended for KS to be something like Naruto's Kage Bunshin no Jutsu. The way Aizen used KS in combat is similar to how Naruto uses his clones to distract his opponents. Aizen's illusions always worked as decoys, they didn't make anyone suffer intense pain or whatnot and KS gives ample time to Aizen's opponents before Aizen can conclude the attack.

So in theory, someone as fast as Aizen won't fall victim to KS's illusions immediately because he'll have time to react before Aizen actually cuts him down. IMHO Aizen with his sealed sword can put up a fight against Aizen with KS but he eventually loses because he can't keep dodging the attacks forever. Yamamoto doesn't have to keep dodging Aizen's attacks forever because he has his own attack that can counter KS. He also can possibly tank more hits than Aizen, so in such a fight the odds will be in his favor.

IMHO this is why the existence of WW was necessary. Otherwise Aizen would kill Yamamoto by stabbing him in the head but he knew he couldn't do that, Yamamoto might have dodged his attack. Yamamoto could have dodged Aizen's attack to his stomach if he didn't intend to take the hit. I don't think it's as simple as "Aizen stabs Yamamoto in the head and wins", IMHO Aizen's actions contradict this scenario. Thus I believe that a fight between Yamamoto and Aizen doesn't end instantly and IMHO time works in Yamamoto's favor in such a fight.

Takahashi
April 09, 2011, 08:51 AM
I'm not sure where you get the idea that KS can be dodged, care to explain further?

While it is true that Aizen typically has used KS as more of an optical illusion than anything, it doesn't change the description of it that has been repeated many times. "Complete control of the 5 senses". It would have been contradicted prior to his defeat if it was not true. We have no evidence to suggest that KS doesn't do what he says it does, when even Gin's one and only method relied on simply canceling the effects.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 09:23 AM
I'm not sure where you get the idea that KS can be dodged, care to explain further?

Sure. :)

If there's no way to dodge KS and if Aizen could kill Yamamoto by stabbing him in the head, Aizen wouldn't bother to make a modded arrancar to defeat Yamamoto, he would go ahead and stab Yamamoto in the head, killing him. Actually he would kill Yamamoto when he was still a captain in SS.

Thus we can conclude that such a scenario isn't feasible and it takes a bit more effort to defeat Yamamoto. More effort means that Aizen's opponent should be capable of dodging when Aizen is about to attack. It seems that whenever Aizen is about to attack someone, his illusions get dispelled, giving ample time to a sufficiently fast opponent.


While it is true that Aizen typically has used KS as more of an optical illusion than anything, it doesn't change the description of it that has been repeated many times. "Complete control of the 5 senses". It would have been contradicted prior to his defeat if it was not true. We have no evidence to suggest that KS doesn't do what he says it does, when even Gin's one and only method relied on simply canceling the effects.

These descriptions are mostly used to make these abilities seem more frightening than they already are. I mean, look at this:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-156/page007.html

In theory, Yamamoto's sword immediately incinerates whatever it touches but I don't think it's the case in practice. IMHO Aizen's actions provide us with the evidence that KS is unable to do most of the things people say KS can do. I believe KS is an extended version of Naruto's Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, this is why Aizen said Yamamoto would likely overpower him in combat because Yamamoto could indeed likely overpower Aizen in combat.

Deepak5191
April 09, 2011, 11:36 AM
Aizen wins. Doesn't matter how much stronger you are than your opponent if you can't lay a finger/sword on him thanks to you mistaken nearby trees and rocks for your target. And if having his sword pierced within him is the only way Yama-jii can tell where the real Aizen is, and he waits for this intentionally, then you guys'll have a tough time convincing me that Aizen won't just go for the decapitation instead of a lame old stab.

Hell, he could activate a Black Coffin on his head with full incantation without Yama even noticing by disguising himself as a fluffy cloud on high.

Problem is, this exact scenario happened in the manga and it already showed that Aizen was cocky enough not to go for the decapitation kill. He underestimated Yama and almost paid the price for it.

As smart as Aizen is, his intelligence is just proving that he would lose. He is smart enough to come prepared in his fight in the manga, thereby creating WW to make up for his own self proclaimed inability to kill Yama. In this fight, he does not have WW nor prior knowledge on Yama, so I'm thinking that Yama wins this with ease.

cracker
April 09, 2011, 12:50 PM
Yama vs Aizen is like Jean Grey (full potential) vs Goku ( at the end of GT *shudders* GT -__- still canon tho)...yeah they are likely on similar power levels but their powers manifest differently, just like Yama and Aizen. Jean's pretty powerful but you don't see her busting planets while thats something Goku could easily do. More than likely she could mind control Goku and just have him kill himself or something but he's just too fast...he could blitz before she could.

This fight is kinda like that. Aizen has a chance, yeah, sure...if he activates KS and manages to utilize it effectively before Yama nukes the entire immediate area and also theres the possibility of being blitz and single or double boned. Face it Aizen has a squirt gun with Hydrofluoric acid (HF) (dangerous yeah) but Yama is about to drop the entire Andes Mountain range in a 100 foot space...game over

kkck
April 09, 2011, 01:08 PM
We really have no indication that yama's shikai can nuke things in such a manner though, that much I have been saying for a while. His ennetsu jigoku can do that however he has never shown he can conjure that king of power at will without preparation. If that really was the case then there would be no reason to use enetsu jigoku in the first place and ryujin jakka would have blown wonderweiss away long before the sword could be sealed.

Cnets translation:
Aizen:Your Ryuujin Jakka is indeed the most powerful zanpakutou in existence. / There is no doubt about that. // Were I to fight against it directly, it would likely overpower even me.
Juni Translation:
Aizen:Your Ryujin jaka is the most powerful zampakuto. That goes without question. If we were to fight directly its combat ability may even exceed that of my own.

In neither scenario aizen admits to being slower, dummer or even weaker than yama. He simply admits that ryujin Jakka has the most power among all zampakuto. Of course that is because Yamamoto himself is extremely powerful however the issue which is being described here is not one where there is much of a difference in strength but rather how the abilities match up. Yamamoto's ability is pure offensive power while Aizen's has no offense whatsoever and instead it is a sick ability. Both abilities are extreme however one way or another in a direct match yamamoto has the advantage in a melee fight because his special abilities are overall better suited for melee combat. Even then, aizen did not outright state he would definitely lose, he just says it was likely or he may be overpowered. I think for plot purposes yamamoto does indeed have an edge though. What we still don't know is whether shikai would be enough to get past the illusion or bankai would be required as aizen or the manga was never specific about it though.

cracker
April 09, 2011, 02:05 PM
@kkck

I'm thinking shikai is more than enough...I can't imagine a scenario that would have required someone like Yama to go bankai, I highly doubt any of the captains know his bankai (maybe Shunsui and Ukitake) unless he showed them for kicks or something(???)

His release for shikai is pretty scary don't you think....reduce all creation to ash, I wouldn't pass him to be able to level (incinerate) an immediate area. I'm thinking
500 - 1000 feet in all directions...seems reasonable and thats without Ennetsu Jigoku. This is the guy thats says no shinigami in the past 1000 years is stronger than him plus its not like he's given you reason to doubt him. With that said I'm also pretty confident in my assumption that Yama is more that likely significantly higher than Aizen in base stats. He (barring FG Ichigo) is probably the only person capable of blitzing Aizen.

Aizen is strong but the way some of his powers, im primarily referring to his shikai abilities, manifest he'd have a hell of time against Yama, the man even said so.
He's the only person he planned for specifically...its like no one else was a factor. And there were so many unknowns, Aizen knows a lot but I doubt he'd know all the captains every zanpakuto ability, shikai and bankai. Yet he didn't seem to care, he still only really planned for Yama.

I guess in his mind whatever they threw at him could be overcomed by KS ( though Im thinking he's was pretty sure they couldn't kill him with the jewel embedded in his chest.)
Because what small advantages they could get over him with these unknown abilities KS would still be the deciding factor.

Face it Yama wins far more scenarios than Aizen even with KS

ShootToKill
April 09, 2011, 02:08 PM
Hitsugaya's Hyoten Hyakkaso would kill himself if Hitsugaya grabbed Harribel's arm, they would both freeze to death, Hitsugaya couldn't escape because he would technically be like a Siamese twin and any attack that would kill Harribel would also kill him.

The point is Ennetsu Jigoku, just like Hyoten Hyakkaso, is a suicidal technique under certain circumstances but these circumstances aren't valid in this fight because Yamamoto doesn't have to grab Aizen's arm and sacrifice himself.
However, since Ichigo was in EJ's range (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-13/bleach/chapter-393.html), and Yama told him to get back, it is implied that EJ is escapable after being activated as long as Yama isn't keeping you within its range when he actually uses it. So if Yama wasn't holding on to Aizen's arm, Aizen could just Shunpo out of range, which would be especially easy if Yama didn't even know where he was.

This is beside the point anyway, the argument I was trying to make was, since Yama decided to use EJ, which WOULD have killed him and everyone within its radius in the manga, he had no technique which didn't involve self sacrifice which he was sure would finish Aizen - if he did, he would have used it. Since Yama has no preparation time here, he will not be able to use EJ, whether it would kill him in the process or not, and none of his other Shikai techniques have the necessary combined radius and destructive power to guarantee a kill vs Aizen with KS, therefore Aizen will be able to fight without the fear of being instapwned by EJ, hence WW is not needed for Aizen to win.


In FKT Yamamoto had to restrain his fire because the barrier should have been kept intact. Since Yamamoto had to restrain his fire, he had to make sure Aizen was in this restricted area, this is why he had to hold Aizen in this place by grabbing his arm. Yamamoto has no such restriction in a neutral place, there are no barriers to protect, so he can freely spread his fire, he doesn't have to be concerned about whether his fire will reach Aizen.
It's a pretty big assumption to make that Yama could just create a sphere of flames of basically infinite radius which will find Aizen wherever he is - Yama's immensely powerful for sure, but I'm pretty sure his power has limits.


In SS arc, Shunsui said Yamamoto's attacks would kill them all:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-153/page015.html

The attack would kill Shunsui and Ukitake and it would also kill other VCs and captains, who would run away when Yamamoto released his sword but running away wouldn't be enough. Shunsui and Ukitake went far away to make sure nobody would get hurt:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-154/page016.html

IMHO Shunsui and Ukitake were referring to Ennetsu Jigoku, Yamamoto's other attacks wouldn't have such a huge area of effect and we know Yamamoto's lesser attacks could be handled to some extent by Ukitake's shikai and it wouldn't kill VCs and captains who stood at a safe distance.
Yama's attacks besides EJ undoubtedly have a huge radius of destruction, enough to kill VCs and lower, and if they were actually directed at Shunsui and Ukitake, they would be enough to kill them eventually as well - we don't even know if Ukitake's Shikai can absorb flames, I believe it was only confirmed to absorb pure Reiatsu based attacks such as ceros. I think Yama wanted to teach them both a lesson anyway, I don't believe he wished to kill them, and he certainly wouldn't use a technique like EJ which would result in much unnecessary destruction just to punish them for disobeying him.


IMHO there's a pretty good chance that Yamamoto can kill Aizen before Aizen can use KS. If Aizen uses KS, then it's all up to interpretation. I think Yamamoto can survive long enough to prepare Ennetsu Jigoku and when he uses it, it's all over.

IMHO attacks like Black Coffin would be useless because Yamamoto would simply destroy it using his fire, so Aizen didn't bother to use such strategy against Yamamoto and created WW to do the job. Aizen didn't try to kill Yamamoto in SS arc, I think it should give a hint about what is viable against Yamamoto and what is not. :D
I believe Yama needs time without having to defend againt constant attacks to prepare EJ. As I said above anyway, I believe EJ is escapable as long as you are not restrained in some way.

Black Coffin might not work, however, a sword strike to the head works against anyone :)

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 02:48 PM
I think Ennetsu Jigoku would be enough to get past the shikai illusions, bankai would be overkill. But Aizen also has a bankai and if he uses bankai, I think Aizen can defeat Yamamoto before Yamamoto can activate Ennetsu Jigoku. In this case Yamamoto will definitely need his own bankai.

[OFF TOPIC] I think Yamamoto's bankai is a huge black sphere which absorbs and devours everything in the vicinity, similar to a black hole in space.[/OFF TOPIC]

In these translations, Aizen state that he is likely weaker than Yamamoto in a direct fight which doesn't involve a third party like WW. He says "I will likely lose in a direct fight but even you, the strongest, can be defeated if I don't fight you directly and use a modded arrancar that was designed specifically against you." I mean Aizen explicitly states that Yamamoto is the strongest and RJ is the strongest:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-17/bleach/chapter-393.html

IMHO when Aizen says RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, he means that, all things considered, RJ gives the best winning chances to its user. This is what "the most powerful" means. KS is, by far, the second most powerful zanpakuto, we haven't seen another ability that can likely overpower KS in combat but we haven't seen most of the bankai, so who knows? :D

P.S. Is there a manga site where I can find Ju-Ni translations?
[hr]
ShootToKill,

I think we have different views about the properties of Ennetsu Jigoku. I must admit the manga is a bit ambiguous about it but this is how I understand it:

- Yamamoto can prepare Ennetsu Jigoku in combat, it just takes time. How much? I have no idea. Let's say "two minutes". LOL

- Yamamoto can attack an area exponentially greater than FKT using Ennetsu Jigoku. Yes, it doesn't have an infinite radius but I think it's more than enough.

- The problem against Aizen was that Yamamoto had to limit his fire to a certain area because there were barriers and pillars which had to be kept intact. But how would Yamamoto make sure that Aizen would get caught in this area? The only foolproof way was to bind Aizen to himself. LOL In this case Yamamoto would die too because they were practically one person.

Fighting in FKT was to Aizen's advantage because Yamamoto's power is purely destructive but he was fighting in a fragile place. I agree that a sword strike to Yamamoto's head would kill him and anyone else, but I see some problems in the realization of this strategy. As did Aizen, this is why he made a modded-arrancar.

I hope I make sense.

kkck
April 09, 2011, 03:01 PM
ENetsu jigoku cannot destroy that large an area nor it was meant to do such a thing. If enetsu jigoku was meant to do such a thing then there really would be no reason for yamamoto to prevent the explosion to begin with. I think it is 100% certain that enetsu jugoku would have had a completely different effect had it actually been used. I personally always imagined the fire pillars enclosing on the targets and incinerating them. Anyways, we also have to consider one of the reasons for the huge explosion was because that much power was compressed within wonderweiss. I would think the huge compression of that immense power contributed to making a more violent release of the power and explosion. One way or another, we have no reason whatsoever to believe yamamoto can summon an explosion of that power on his own or at will.

ShootToKill
April 09, 2011, 03:09 PM
@Miyagi I see where you're coming from, but what do you think about my suggestion that EJ is escapable after being activated prior to Yama actually "implementing it"? Ichigo was within the range of EJ as I pointed out, yet Yama told him to leave, implying that one can escape from within it before it becomes "too late".

My interpretation of EJ is that it's a last resort technique, which is implied heavily due to the sacrifice of Yama and his comrades which would result from its use. Perhaps you're correct in that Yama could make EJ's walls of flames surround a target while he remained outside, but an opponent like Aizen (and Ichigo apparently) would be able to escape it if not held there. I believe that once the walls of flame have been created, they will slowly close in on the target, becoming closer and closer together, until they meet, by which time the "density" of flames will be so great that no one can survive coming into contact with them. However, an individual wall doesn't seem to be enough to prevent an enemy from escaping. So unless Yama uses a Bakudo on an enemy, which would not work on Aizen since he wouldn't know where he was (KS), he would have to hold the enemy within the center of the flames himself, and hence die alongside his enemy.

So summing things up, even were Yama given the time to use EJ, which I don't believe he would be, Aizen could escape it as long as Yama didn't hold him in place. You might ask - "Why then did Aizen bring WW along if he could escape from EJ so easily?" I would say:
1) Yama's Bankai could have techniques which Aizen couldn't avoid even with KS.
2) Aizen, although I would imagine pretty knowledgeable about RJ, would not know everything about Yama's powers, and took WW along as a get out of jail free card if anything, since he wished to leave absolutely nothing to chance.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 03:11 PM
kkck,

I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.

kkck
April 09, 2011, 03:25 PM
kkck,

I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.

I am making a distinction between the actual ennetsu jigoku and the power that was sealed within wonderweiss. Ennetsu jigoku was the technique yamamoto wanted to use for his suicide and aizen's death. Wonderweiss simply sealed the power that technique was going to use. Yamamoto never intended to make that explosion happen, that would be irresponsible considering it would have indeed destroyed a extremely large area. Basically, ennetsu jigoku was meant to work in a completely different way from the explosion which was released from wonderweiss head. If that was what yamamoto meant from the start then I really doubt he would have bothered stopping it.

I also did not say wonderweiss strengthened the technique at all nor I even made the slightest allusion at him conceivably having any imaginable form of fire ability. I merely argued that one of the reasons for which the explosion was so strong was because the immense power yamamoto meant ennetsu jigoku to have was sealed in such a confined space as was wonderweiss's head. For that matter, do you even know what reiatsu is? Reiatsu means spirit pressure which is different from the reikoryo or spirit power. This manga is all about how concentrated your power is in comparison to others. Besides, reiatsu should be seen as a physical thing. It is not an object but its physical effects have been seen at every point during the manga.

ShootToKill
April 09, 2011, 03:39 PM
kkck,

I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.

I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.
In terms of a gas, compression causes the individual particles to have much greater energy, which results on a large scale in a more forceful exit when the gas is released from its container. I think the same general principle is applied here, with Yama's flames (which consist of Reiatsu or "spirit particles" replacing a gas, although you couldn't "contain" flames like this in a small environment irl, since you'd run out of oxygen. I know we shouldn't really bring physics into Bleach :p but I do believe that it was implied that compression made the explosion significantly more destructive than the original attack.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 03:55 PM
ShootToKill,

IMHO EJ in FKT was escapable because it had been limited to a small area. All Ichigo had to do was to stay the hell out of this area. (pun intended :D) Aizen could also avoid it if Yamamoto hadn't been holding him. I presume, under normal circumstances, it's much harder to escape from it because Yamamoto will spread the fire to a much larger area which, judging by WW's explosion, may be much larger than FKT. IMHO Yamamoto can effectively target everywhere, in or out of the fire pillars.

Your interpretation also makes sense, the fire pillars closing in on the target, similar to Hitsugaya's Ice Prison but in a much wider scale. In this case, Yamamoto has to trap his target inside. Once the target is trapped, I don't think there's a viable way of going out, the fire, just like Jokaku Enjo, will be hot enough to incinerate anything that touches it. But as you said, the target can escape before the technique is activated, just like Ichigo.

We don't know what Yamamoto's bankai is but if I were Aizen, I would think Yamamoto's bankai was unusable in FKT due to its immense destructive power which would likely do more harm than good. IMHO Aizen thought that RJ was still dangerous in its shikai state and he made WW as a failsafe. Considering that Yamamoto had Ennetsu Jigoku, Aizen was right.

If Ennetsu Jigoku can't be used or it fails, then we may see something similar to Kenpachi vs Tousen. Yamamoto will try to catch Aizen, similar to what he did in the manga, and cut Aizen's sword arm off. Can Yamamoto do that? Doubtful. Aizen will be more careful this time because he won't have hougyoku in his chest and he won't have WW. I think Yamamoto's stamina may be the decisive factor in such a fight and Aizen can gradually exhaust him and stab him in the head when Yamamoto is too tired to dodge or use his fire to protect himself.

Takahashi
April 09, 2011, 04:01 PM
Sure. :)

If there's no way to dodge KS and if Aizen could kill Yamamoto by stabbing him in the head, Aizen wouldn't bother to make a modded arrancar to defeat Yamamoto, he would go ahead and stab Yamamoto in the head, killing him. Actually he would kill Yamamoto when he was still a captain in SS.

We have to keep in mind that the story always comes first. It wouldn't make sense to have Yama die in such a way, he'd been hyped up so much that giving him the Tousen treatment would just irritate people. That, and Kubo doesn't kill good guys, no matter how severe the injury. Hiyori got cut in half, Mayuri had his chest blown out except for perhaps a couple inches of flesh somehow holding up the top half of his body. Kubo killing off the CC without an impressive showing is just a bad decision. WW was the perfect way to do so, without allowing Yama and Aizen to actually fight.

Saying Aizen didn't go for a head shot because he couldn't doesn't make sense, because TONS of other characters have had perfect opportunities to do so and did not. It simply makes fights boring, and it's why they're so rare.


Thus we can conclude that such a scenario isn't feasible and it takes a bit more effort to defeat Yamamoto. More effort means that Aizen's opponent should be capable of dodging when Aizen is about to attack. It seems that whenever Aizen is about to attack someone, his illusions get dispelled, giving ample time to a sufficiently fast opponent.

I really doubt it's a requirement. When Halibel stabbed him, he stabbed her back before dispelling the image, when Hinamori got stabbed, there was no indication of any kind. I don't see a reason to believe that KS is ONLY a better Kage Bunshin. Yes, he primarily uses sight, but he's also used sound when Hitsu and Halibel stabbed him. He also used touch, obviously, or Halibel would have felt that her sword didn't contact anything. The only thing he hasn't used is smell and taste, and unless you simply want to irritate someone, there's no need to. We've seen proof of usage of the senses that matter, so I can't believe that you can find an opening through sight.


These descriptions are mostly used to make these abilities seem more frightening than they already are. I mean, look at this:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-156/page007.html

In theory, Yamamoto's sword immediately incinerates whatever it touches but I don't think it's the case in practice. IMHO Aizen's actions provide us with the evidence that KS is unable to do most of the things people say KS can do. I believe KS is an extended version of Naruto's Kage Bunshin no Jutsu, this is why Aizen said Yamamoto would likely overpower him in combat because Yamamoto could indeed likely overpower Aizen in combat.

Two very different descriptions though. Yama's is emphasis to it's raw elemental power. Aizen's is just a simple explanation of its mechanics, and we've seen proof of it.

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 04:12 PM
I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.

ShootToKill
April 09, 2011, 04:26 PM
I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.
Yeah, irl an external force would be required to cause the compression, hence providing the extra energy. However, Bleach isn't really a physics based manga :p so we just have to suspend belief on some of these things. Having said this, irl you can't compress something without it receiving extra energy, and I believe that this is what was implied in Bleach as well. I guess WW's release might have been what was supposed to provide this "missing" energy to compress Yama's flames. After all, we know WW was no joke, his Reiatsu was immense despite the apparent ease with which Yama defeated him. But as I said, Bleach doesn't try to follow physics particularly, so we shouldn't try and interpret anything which seems to disobey the laws of physics, just accept it :D I still feel the intent was, however the compression was caused, that it would cause a huge explosion of greater destructive power than Yama's original attack. But then again, who knows? :D

Miyagi
April 09, 2011, 04:47 PM
Takahashi,

If Kubo didn't kill Yamamoto in the stated way to save him from embarrassment, it's Kubo's fault that he misled us. LOL On top of that, Kubo made Aizen say that Yamamoto was the strongest and he would likely defeat him in combat. This is my humble opinion but I believe Kubo has never intended for Aizen to be able to stab people in the head, killing any person in a simple manner regardless of his strength.

I think Aizen's opponents have the means to defend themselves provided that they have enough speed and strength. Aizen can exhaust Yamamoto and then stab him in the head, I can understand that. But if Aizen's KS is indeed so hax that there's no defense to stabbing someone in the head, then Kubo has to rewrite the story because it doesn't make sense in its current form.
[hr]
ShootToKill,

Yes, it's impossible to know how much energy WW added to the explosion, if at all. This is the good part of having a discussion, looking at the same material but seeing entirely different things. I don't think Bleach or any other manga follows the rules of physics, so anything is possible. If we ever see Ennetsu Jigoku again, it will clarify many ambiguous points.

Anyway, I've gotta go for now, it was nice having a discussion with you guys.

Takahashi
April 09, 2011, 04:48 PM
Takahashi,

If Kubo didn't kill Yamamoto in the stated way to save him from embarrassment, it's Kubo's fault that he misled us. LOL On top of that, Kubo made Aizen say that Yamamoto was the strongest and he would likely defeat him in combat. This is my humble opinion but I believe Kubo has never intended for Aizen to be able to stab people in the head, killing any person in a simple manner regardless of his strength.

Yamamoto is indeed the strongest. But being the strongest doesn't mean an automatic win in a fight. But you're right, Kubo never intended for Aizen to simply stab people in the head. Because he doesn't kill good guys, and when a bad guy has a cheap ability, they will ALWAYS be beaten because of their personality. It's standard stuff. Look at Barragan, if he didn't stand around an cackle and just threw Respira everywhere, he's next to unstoppable. If Aizen had used KS on Urahara, or Ichigo, he would have won. I've said it a lot, there's a very obvious reason that Kubo DIDN'T make a hole in KS's ability and instead just made Aizen stupid enough to not use it. If there were limitations like you were suggesting, it would have been shown at some point before he was beaten.


I think Aizen's opponents have the means to defend themselves provided that they have enough speed and strength. Aizen can exhaust Yamamoto and then stab him in the head, I can understand that. But if Aizen's KS is indeed so hax that there's no defense to stabbing someone in the head, then Kubo has to rewrite the story because it doesn't make sense in its current form.

It makes perfect sense. Kubo is restricted by his story. Hell, look at any story, how many times does that bad guy lose when he could EASILY win, but he decides to monologue or something and give the good guy time to kill him? It happens constantly. Same thing with KS. Logically, he could head shot everyone without them even knowing about it, as realistic as it would be, it's bad writing. Just because Aizen doesn't head shot people doesn't mean he's incapable, he's simply bound by what is or isn't allowed to happen.

In this tournament, we should be tossing aside the plot induced stupidity that hold back the cheapest characters.

cracker
April 09, 2011, 05:25 PM
Yamamoto is indeed the strongest. But being the strongest doesn't mean an automatic win in a fight. But you're right, Kubo never intended for Aizen to simply stab people in the head. Because he doesn't kill good guys, and when a bad guy has a cheap ability, they will ALWAYS be beaten because of their personality. It's standard stuff. Look at Barragan, if he didn't stand around an cackle and just threw Respira everywhere, he's next to unstoppable. If Aizen had used KS on Urahara, or Ichigo, he would have won. I've said it a lot, there's a very obvious reason that Kubo DIDN'T make a hole in KS's ability and instead just made Aizen stupid enough to not use it. If there were limitations like you were suggesting, it would have been shown at some point before he was beaten.



It makes perfect sense. Kubo is restricted by his story. Hell, look at any story, how many times does that bad guy lose when he could EASILY win, but he decides to monologue or something and give the good guy time to kill him? It happens constantly. Same thing with KS. Logically, he could head shot everyone without them even knowing about it, as realistic as it would be, it's bad writing. Just because Aizen doesn't head shot people doesn't mean he's incapable, he's simply bound by what is or isn't allowed to happen.

In this tournament, we should be tossing aside the plot induced stupidity that hold back the cheapest characters.

Aizen ability is good, real good in Bleachverse. There are ways Kubo could have made the characters get around it, I thought of a few thats why I figured the bankai would have removed whatever weakness the shikai had.

Real broken abilities are Gold Experience Requiem and Knocking on Heaven's Door from Jojo's bizarre adventure, those powers are really broken...as well as most omega level mutants from the Marvelverse, but I digress.

Yama's type of strongest though is good. Barragon's ability would beat most opponents hands down simply for the fact that its so deadly and Soifon ( one of the fastest) couldn't dodge it, likely its very hard to dodge ( you know, next to impossible save for probably Aizen, Yama, FG Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo ( the one that trashed) Ulq etc.

Yama's has an elemental zanpakuto thats highly destructive and capable of Aoe attacks, barring an immunity to fire these things alone make him capable of killing any opponent, likely having the highest base stats in every area doesn't hurt either. I could see him killing Barragon fast and easy. Now if Kenpachi was the strongest, simply with just sheer raw power theres no way he could beat Barragon in more scenarios.

Aizen has access to KS, thats great. Means that there are some scenarios that he could get wins but Yama wins more and in the end you just have to go with the old dude.


I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.

I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.

Law of Conservation of Energy or the first law of thermodynamics, states that energy cannot be created or destroyed but can be changed from one form to another by transducers (simplified)

Deicide
April 09, 2011, 08:39 PM
Yamamoto takes this.
Aizen admitted his inferiority to Yamamoto, and it's also supported by the fact that he went through the trouble modifying Wonderweiss.

Miyagi
April 10, 2011, 03:45 AM
Takahashi,

You're right, the bad guys get the short end of the stick most of the time. It's shonen logic, bad guys must lose. I think Barragan was as dangerous as Starrk but he was too arrogant. In any case, I think personalities must be taken into consideration in these fights because it's an integral part of these characters. These are Kubo's characters and if Kubo made Barragan stupid, then Barragan, for all intents and purposes, is stupid.

IMHO Barragan's case is a bit different Aizen's. Barragan had a character flaw, Aizen, on the other hand, was supposed to be intelligent but he suffered from PIS after hougyoku changed him. He was a totally different person. Could Aizen defeat Ichigo if he did use KS? Well, main character always wins, so Aizen was destined to lose anyway but I would like to see this fight.

Good guys sometimes suffer from PIS, too. Why didn't the captains in FKT use their bankai? Didn't Kubo say "Yes, Shunsui's bankai might have defeated Aizen but he wasn't supposed to defeat him"? Isn't it stupid that Shunsui refrained from using his bankai, against both Starrk and Aizen?

Anyway, IMHO we are limited to what the manga tells us. I think Aizen, as a character of this manga, doesn't have the power to head shot Yamamoto whom he admitted inferiority. The manga didn't give us a specific reason, so all we can do is guess why. I think Aizen used KS against Yamamoto before he stabbed him in the stomach, IMHO Yamamoto had enough time to dodge the attack if Aizen went for the head instead of the stomach. Makes sense, no?

Takahashi
April 10, 2011, 05:00 AM
Takahashi,

You're right, the bad guys get the short end of the stick most of the time. It's shonen logic, bad guys must lose. I think Barragan was as dangerous as Starrk but he was too arrogant. In any case, I think personalities must be taken into consideration in these fights because it's an integral part of these characters. These are Kubo's characters and if Kubo made Barragan stupid, then Barragan, for all intents and purposes, is stupid.

To be honest, I don't see Barragan as arrogant or stupid. His power is on an unimaginable level. It's not arrogance if it's true :tem If I had his powers I'd probably toy with people and develop a superiority complex too. But that's neither here nor there.


IMHO Barragan's case is a bit different Aizen's. Barragan had a character flaw, Aizen, on the other hand, was supposed to be intelligent but he suffered from PIS after hougyoku changed him. He was a totally different person. Could Aizen defeat Ichigo if he did use KS? Well, main character always wins, so Aizen was destined to lose anyway but I would like to see this fight.

Indeed. Aizen's Hogokyu transformation was Kubo's method to make a scenario where Aizen wouldn't bother with KS.


Good guys sometimes suffer from PIS, too. Why didn't the captains in FKT use their bankai? Didn't Kubo say "Yes, Shunsui's bankai might have defeated Aizen but he wasn't supposed to defeat him"? Isn't it stupid that Shunsui refrained from using his bankai, against both Starrk and Aizen?

I believe it was that he wanted people to speculate on whether or not Shunsui's Bankai could take on Aizen.


Anyway, IMHO we are limited to what the manga tells us. I think Aizen, as a character of this manga, doesn't have the power to head shot Yamamoto whom he admitted inferiority. The manga didn't give us a specific reason, so all we can do is guess why. I think Aizen used KS against Yamamoto before he stabbed him in the stomach, IMHO Yamamoto had enough time to dodge the attack if Aizen went for the head instead of the stomach. Makes sense, no?

Sorry, but no. I'm not following how when you're hypnotized, dodging in any way, regardless of the target area is even possible. The manga DID give us a reason why Aizen didn't headshot Yama. Or rather, understanding of how Kubo works is proof enough IMO.

1. Good guys can't die. This means that the story alone will make Aizen NEVER headshot someone. It has nothing to do with KS's capabilities, and everything to do with how Kubo runs the show.

2. Yama, as the CC and a guy who'd yet to have a proper fight, could not, for the sake of popularity lose without a good showing prior to that. Kubo had an obligation to show us why the CC is the CC. I don't see WW as a "requirement for Aizen's win". I see it as "A powerful punching bag to show off how incredibly powerful Yama is". There's a reason we saw him fight Bankai Kensei beforehand, and then went after Yama. Kubo made it very clear that Yama can pack more raw power in his fists than a Bankai. Couple that in with the "noble sacrifice" idea and it's a pretty standard story element, well, at least it would be if rule number 1 wasn't in effect :p

If Aizen's KS was simply optical, Yama would indeed be capable of winning, in fact, I'd vote for him. But it's not, it's an end all, ultimate ability. People say he'll just shoot fire everywhere and eventually hit him and win, and it makes me wonder if people understand what the 5 senses are. How do you know you're typing? You feel it, see it, hear it. It's no different than swinging a sword, the comprehension is the same. The ONLY way you can know anything is through your senses. Like I've said, Aizen can simply control his opponents reality. It's basically an unbeatable version of the Matrix.

Miyagi
April 10, 2011, 07:07 AM
Takahashi,

I see your point but I respectfully disagree. I mean we know that bad guys must lose due to plot but this fact doesn't make the victories of the good guys questionable IMHO.

I think Aizen had plot shield which protected him against anybody but Ichigo, the main character. But I believe Aizen's victories against other good guys were still legitimate. Even though other captains had no chance of winning against Aizen due to plot, they still lost and we can use this information in this hypothetical fights.

Likewise Aizen admitted inferiority to Yamamoto and I'm willing to use this information in this scenario. In one of his interviews Kubo said that Aizen and Mayuri were his favorite characters, so if anything, Aizen gets better treatment than most characters. LOL Everything in this manga happens for the sake of the plot, if we put too much thought on Kubo's intentions, IMHO we miss the real point and lose focus.

Here's another example to illustrate my point better. In Star Wars, Samuel Jackson, the actor who portrayed jedi master Mace Windu, asked George Lucas to give his character a respectable death. Mace Windu defeated main villain, Darth Sidious, before his ally Anakin betrayed the jedi order and cut off his arm, causing his death.

Mace Windu had a good showing due to Samuel Jackson's demand but no matter what, the movie portrayed Mace Windu as a strong jedi, and IMHO this is what matters. In our case, Kubo can't misrepresent a character because Kubo is the character. I think Kubo's ulterior motives are the subject of another discussion. LOL

benelori
April 10, 2011, 11:28 AM
Likewise Aizen admitted inferiority to Yamamoto and I'm willing to use this information in this scenario. In one of his interviews Kubo said that Aizen and Mayuri were his favorite characters, so if anything, Aizen gets better treatment than most characters. LOL Everything in this manga happens for the sake of the plot, if we put too much thought on Kubo's intentions, IMHO we miss the real point and lose focus.


That's true, but I kinda feel that there is a contradiction...somewhat...because I'm following your suggestion and that's why I don't consider Aizen's statement as a factor for the outcome of this particular fight in the tournament...because that statement is part of the plot as well

Aizen's statement...either it considers Yamamoto as a whole shinigami, or just his zanpaktou power, which in the manga has bankai as well...IMO it is not a strong evidence, because in this particular fight, both of them are limited to shikai...

And I think that's the way we should consider this fight, and I think that's why as you said some plot devices used by Kubo make us lose focus and miss the point...which is that the characters are not fighting at their full potential

Hanihime
April 10, 2011, 11:40 AM
Aizen made WW because he couldn't beat Yamamoto fairly IIRC.
So Yamamoto wins this for me.

Snake_Cowboy
April 10, 2011, 01:25 PM
Aizen is probably my favourite character in the manga and considering the immense power he has shown, I would've been severely disappointed if he had lost to any of the opponents he's faced in this tournament. Unfortunately, even I believe that, most likely, Yamamoto would still win in a battle between these two.

Both Aizen and Yamamoto are (as far as normal Shinigami are concerned) the most powerful characters in the manga. From what we've seen, I believe that, in almost every instance, these two are superior in every Shinigami art. I'm not sure even Yoruichi can match Aizen's speed and with the way Yamamoto easily outran Kyouraku and Ukitake (some of the oldest and strongest captains), it's clear that he's on the same level. Power? Yamamoto's reiatsu all but suffocated a vice-captain; Aizen brought Grimmjow on his knees with a glance. Yamamoto easily punched a hole through Wonderweiss, possibly the strongest Arrancar we've seen, and launched him halfway through town; Aizen cut a Bankai to pieces with a single slash. Both have shown quite incredible proficiency with Kidou and both have a zanpakutou that is almost invincible. The two have also shown an astute intellect.

And yet, it looks like Yamamoto is still going to have the edge. With the way he outright shattered Wonderweiss or took the explosion from Ryuujin Jakka (a blast the strength of a nuke) and was still capable of using a #96 Hadou without incantation, the Captain-Commander's power is just unfathomable. Aizen hasn't shown anything quite that impressive just yet. Couple that with the fact that Aizen created Wonderweiss specifically to counter Yamamoto and outright admitted that, with Ryuujin Jakka, his power outweighed his own, and there's enough evidence to conclude that, overall, Yamamoto still has the edge over Aizen.

In my opinion, this fight all comes down to who has the superior zanpakutou: Ryuujin Jakka or Kyouka Suigetsu.

Without more knowledge of his abilities beforehand, not even Yamamoto will be able to avoid falling prey to Kyouka Suigetsu's Perfect Hypnosis. From even a quick scuffle, Aizen will conclude that Yamamoto's strength rivals, if not surpasses his own, even more so once Yamamoto starts tossing Ryuujin Jakka's flames around, and he'll release his own zanpakutou. Yamamoto, on-guard for the release, will watch the blade and fall under Kyouka Suigetsu's spell. From that point on, Aizen will play it cautiously, using his hypnosis to evade Ryuujin Jakka's flames and strike at Yamamoto with impunity. No doubt the Captain-Commander will take some serious hits, but even so, it will take quite a lot of effort from Aizen to take him down. More importantly, I think Yamamoto may be skilled enough to defend himself or dodge once Aizen moves on the offensive. His only hope is going for the head immediately, but even that may not succeed.

Eventually, though, Yamamoto will understand Aizen's ability and his strategy and most likely, he'll go for roughly the same strategy as in their fight in Fake Karakura Town: Yamamoto will allow himself to get hit in order to lure Aizen close, grab him and strike with Ryuujin Jakka at close range. Such a blaze will do massive damage, even to Aizen. Yamamoto could also use the flames to envelop himself, making it difficult for Aizen to strike; the second he senses where the real Aizen is, he can send the flames his way. With the way he killed Allon and Halibel's Fraccíon, it seems the fires of his zanpakutou are dangerously quick.

Against the likes of Yamamoto, Aizen will have few options. Once Yamamoto really lands a good hit, even Aizen won't survive.

And thus, Yamamoto wins the finals.:amuse

Takahashi
April 10, 2011, 05:05 PM
Takahashi,

I see your point but I respectfully disagree. I mean we know that bad guys must lose due to plot but this fact doesn't make the victories of the good guys questionable IMHO.

I'm not talking about the end result really. I know good and bad guys both have times when they're simply not allowed to win. My point was more directed at the idea that Aizen, and anyone for that matter, isn't allowed to headshot people, because it defeats the purpose of an entertaining fight. Aizen not doing so is not proof of anything relating to KS, and rather, Kubo himself disallowing a very practical way to attack someone :P


I think Aizen had plot shield which protected him against anybody but Ichigo, the main character. But I believe Aizen's victories against other good guys were still legitimate. Even though other captains had no chance of winning against Aizen due to plot, they still lost and we can use this information in this hypothetical fights.

I also happen to believe that KS played a pretty significant part in Aizen's win. I actually don't hold Aizen himself that highly, but his ability makes Madara weep.


Likewise Aizen admitted inferiority to Yamamoto and I'm willing to use this information in this scenario. In one of his interviews Kubo said that Aizen and Mayuri were his favorite characters, so if anything, Aizen gets better treatment than most characters. LOL Everything in this manga happens for the sake of the plot, if we put too much thought on Kubo's intentions, IMHO we miss the real point and lose focus.

Aizen did admit inferiority to Yama, and no one here thinks Aizen would beat Yama in a straight up, fair fight. But KS makes things beyond unfair, and puts his opponent in a situation that cannot be won. I get what you're saying, but this fight is VERY much dependent on your opinion of KS. You see limitations to it that I don't, and I don't think we'll be able to convince each other.


Here's another example to illustrate my point better. In Star Wars, Samuel Jackson, the actor who portrayed jedi master Mace Windu, asked George Lucas to give his character a respectable death. Mace Windu defeated main villain, Darth Sidious, before his ally Anakin betrayed the jedi order and cut off his arm, causing his death.

Mace Windu had a good showing due to Samuel Jackson's demand but no matter what, the movie portrayed Mace Windu as a strong jedi, and IMHO this is what matters. In our case, Kubo can't misrepresent a character because Kubo is the character. I think Kubo's ulterior motives are the subject of another discussion. LOL

Interesting stuff. Anyway, I think Aizen's words do mean Yama is stronger, probably MUCH stronger. However, Aizen said that knowing full well that simply being stronger doesn't mean they win. KS is the epitome of a game changer.

EureKA
April 10, 2011, 06:23 PM
The only way i saw aizen winning was when someone mentioned that he should spam his ks and just stab the crap out of yamamoto. I thought this over but came to the conclusion that he could get one in at best. As gin said the only way to negate ks is to touch the blade so for that moment when aizen stabs yamamoto he is caught. Yamamoto certainly is quick enough to catch him and once stab all he has to do is is take aizen down in a giant inferno.

But aizen could fare much better from long range kidou attacks, he still has yamamoto under his hypnosis and doesn't give him the chance to figure out the illusion as his blade is never anywhere near yamamoto.

ShootToKill
April 10, 2011, 07:07 PM
The only way i saw aizen winning was when someone mentioned that he should spam his ks and just stab the crap out of yamamoto. I thought this over but came to the conclusion that he could get one in at best. As gin said the only way to negate ks is to touch the blade so for that moment when aizen stabs yamamoto he is caught. Yamamoto certainly is quick enough to catch him and once stab all he has to do is is take aizen down in a giant inferno.

But aizen could fare much better from long range kidou attacks, he still has yamamoto under his hypnosis and doesn't give him the chance to figure out the illusion as his blade is never anywhere near yamamoto.
I seriously don't think that Yama is so much faster (if at all) than Aizen, that he could grab him whenever he takes a swing at him. Aizen would never do something as stupid as run Yama through and allow Yama to grab him under normal circumstances. He had WW to ensure his victory in the manga, but here, he doesn't, so he'll be more cautious.

However, Yama doesn't have time to prepare his Ennetsu Jigoku either, and I have strong reason to believe he doesn't have any other Shikai techniques which can finish Aizen without knowing where he is. So Aizen's best bet is to use KS, distract Yama with Kido, and come in to finish him off with his sword while he's distracted. I believe Aizen wins this relatively quickly - Yama doesn't have plot armor here :)

Takahashi
April 10, 2011, 07:30 PM
I seriously don't think that Yama is so much faster (if at all) than Aizen, that he could grab him whenever he takes a swing at him. Aizen would never do something as stupid as run Yama through and allow Yama to grab him under normal circumstances. He had WW to ensure his victory in the manga, but here, he doesn't, so he'll be more cautious.

Yeah, stupid Butterfree Aizen isn't here.


However, Yama doesn't have time to prepare his Ennetsu Jigoku either, and I have strong reason to believe he doesn't have any other Shikai techniques which can finish Aizen without knowing where he is. So Aizen's best bet is to use KS, distract Yama with Kido, and come in to finish him off with his sword while he's distracted. I believe Aizen wins this relatively quickly - Yama doesn't have plot armor here :)

I don't think a distraction is really necessary. Aizen could use just two senses to win: Touch and sight, and I suppose hearing if he wishes.

Aizen shows himself standing there talking, or anything really. While real Aizen carves up Yama, he takes away the feeling of a sword being stabbed into him repeatedly, and eventually Yama drops without ever feeling any ill effects. He doesn't even need a headshot if Yama never feels actually being hurt.

ShootToKill
April 10, 2011, 08:23 PM
I don't think a distraction is really necessary. Aizen could use just two senses to win: Touch and sight, and I suppose hearing if he wishes.

Aizen shows himself standing there talking, or anything really. While real Aizen carves up Yama, he takes away the feeling of a sword being stabbed into him repeatedly, and eventually Yama drops without ever feeling any ill effects. He doesn't even need a headshot if Yama never feels actually being hurt.
Yeah, I was just going with the assumption that there are limitations on KS and it can't do anything which is basically impossible to defend against such as removing pain sensation. Aizen still wins even if he can't do this :D Although it is indeed possible that he can. Unfortunately though, my guess is that most people will expect Aizen to use KS as sparingly as he did in the manga to avoid multiple dead main characters in the space of a few pages, so Yama will probably win the votes 2:1.

cloudo
April 11, 2011, 12:16 AM
Didn't Yama even say to Aizen- "did you think that if you sealed Ryujin Jakka that you could defeat me?" Yeah I think he did. That statement right there means that Aizen's head was about to be smashed in by the raging fist that is Yama's right hand. Until WW stepped in after he took single bone and got sent flying for a good few hundred meters, Aizen's face was about to be dealt the death blow. Aizen would be cocky like he was against Yama in the manga. he knows Yama is the strongest. He went to go kill Yama with his sword, and even after Yama took the brunt of ALL of his own fire, he still had the strength to use a sacrificial kido.

What says it all is after Aizen admitted that Yama is stronger, that he made WW to take on the 'best' in his own words, even after WW blew up with Yama over top of it, he still said "I underestimated him". That's all you need to know.

xXan
April 11, 2011, 02:22 AM
Yeah, stupid Butterfree Aizen isn't here.



I don't think a distraction is really necessary. Aizen could use just two senses to win: Touch and sight, and I suppose hearing if he wishes.

Aizen shows himself standing there talking, or anything really. While real Aizen carves up Yama, he takes away the feeling of a sword being stabbed into him repeatedly, and eventually Yama drops without ever feeling any ill effects. He doesn't even need a headshot if Yama never feels actually being hurt.

Considering what happened when Aizen actualy impaled Yama Ji i don't think he can do this.
The way i see KS working is like a holodec(startrek). He can change the information that get's to you body but he has no direct control over the nerves or any other things that are inside your body. So he can't change the information that is send trough your body but the information that get's to your body. This would also explain why Yama Ji was able to identify Aizen sword after it pierced his body.

Also this is enforced by the fact that Aizen can't instantly kill anybody under KS. If you can change the information that is send trough you body why not tell the hearth to stop or the lungs to stop or the eyes/ears to stop working and so on.

Takahashi
April 11, 2011, 03:00 AM
Considering what happened when Aizen actualy impaled Yama Ji i don't think he can do this.

Again though, it would have been boring as hell if Aizen won fights like that. He's restricted in that sense, capable or not.


The way i see KS working is like a holodec(startrek). He can change the information that get's to you body but he has no direct control over the nerves or any other things that are inside your body. So he can't change the information that is send trough your body but the information that get's to your body. This would also explain why Yama Ji was able to identify Aizen sword after it pierced his body.

What? Aizen can completely control your sense of touch. There can't be external pain without a sense of touch. If "complete control" is anything to go by, I'd imagine he's fully capable of doing so. He's never displayed it, but again, it would be unpractical from a writing standpoint for him to do so.


Also this is enforced by the fact that Aizen can't instantly kill anybody under KS. If you can change the information that is send trough you body why not tell the hearth to stop or the lungs to stop or the eyes/ears to stop working and so on.

He controls the five senses, your heart beating has nothing to do with your sense of sight, smell, touch, taste, or hearing.

As far as stopping your eyes and ears from working? Absolutely. "Complete control" means complete control, thus stripping them away is well within reason.

It all comes down to plot. Aizen would have won in a world where he was allowed to. If we'd seen a contradiction to the "complete control", I'd give more leeway, but we haven't. It perfectly explains Aizen's personality change. Had Ichigo been affected by KS and won in some other way that involved sense, I'd question it's capabilities. But instead we have the author drop his IQ as much as possible to cheat him out of an easy win a child could figure out.

Exodi
April 11, 2011, 01:29 PM
Well, I know I'm voting for Yamamoto.

But Aizen would win the fight, only because of the ability of his zanpakutou.
In a battle where they weren't allowed to use their zanpakutou, Yamamoto would take this one.

But zanpakutou abilities must be accounted for. And, unfortunately, it's far too easy to fall under the effects of Kyoka Suigetsu. But in a different scenario, Yamamoto would win.

And not only because he's freakishly strong. Yamamoto is surprisingly quick to sacrifice himself for the sake of destroying his opponent, as evidenced by his sacrificial kidou and more so by Ennetsu Jigoku. Maybe he was so willing only because it was Aizen, but either way it speaks to his character.

Yamamoto is just awesome. So is Aizen, but for much different reasons.

Boris999
April 11, 2011, 08:05 PM
I think that Aizen's Zan has a weakness that someone with the wisdom and experience of Yama will figure out how to exploit.

And that is that, in the Bleach universe, there are more senses then just the basic 5 we have to deal with. There are several other 'senses' that skilled warriors seem to be able to gain.

One I would simply term as 'battle instinct', such as what Kempachi used when fighting Tousen's Bankai. I don't remember the details of that fight too well, seeing as I last saw it ageeeees ago but a veteran warrior who is experienced is able to gain a sort of supernatural reflex based on instinct alone, even when his normal senses are compromised. I'm sure if Ken can pull this off, someone like Yama can.

The other is simply the ability to sense Riatsu. Aizen's Zan doesn't seem to take away that power, and I have a feeling that over the course of the fight Yama would be able to use that to his advantage to sense Aizen's presence and attacks better and better.

So, I believe, Yama wins.

ShootToKill
April 11, 2011, 09:59 PM
One I would simply term as 'battle instinct', such as what Kempachi used when fighting Tousen's Bankai. I don't remember the details of that fight too well, seeing as I last saw it ageeeees ago but a veteran warrior who is experienced is able to gain a sort of supernatural reflex based on instinct alone, even when his normal senses are compromised. I'm sure if Ken can pull this off, someone like Yama can.
I believe that this was simply Ken's sense of touch - due to his amazing reflexes he was actually able to react to the motion of Tousen's blade a split second before it struck his body. Still falls under the 5 conventional senses though. Also, just because Yama is the most powerful Shinigami overall, doesn't mean that his individual abilities exceed everyone else's.


The other is simply the ability to sense Riatsu. Aizen's Zan doesn't seem to take away that power, and I have a feeling that over the course of the fight Yama would be able to use that to his advantage to sense Aizen's presence and attacks better and better.
I agree that Aizen's Zanpaktou doesn't seem to prevent Reiatsu sensing, but, as indicated in the manga, Yama was only really able to use it to his advantage after Aizen stabbed him and he grabbed his arm, which leads me to believe that sensing Reiatsu isn't all that useful against a moving target (unless you're Tousen, who has trained for centuries to fight based just on this sense) - for everyone else it isn't a substitute for sight, so I feel Yama doesn't really have a chance once he is hypnotized by KS.

Tsukisama
April 12, 2011, 12:08 AM
It's all over and decided!

:confetti

First Place: Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni
Second Place: Aizen Sōsuke


:confetti

I hope you enjoyed the match and tournament as a whole. Please stay tuned for a few special final things for the grand finale! :whoabunny