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packages
April 13, 2011, 04:13 PM
Let me preface.

I've read all of the chapters up until currently, (waiting on 444.) I've also watched most of the anime and understand where the plots weave in and out of one another.
I've just recently, thanks to Netflix begun watching Bleach from the beginning again. During the first 11 or so episodes, it becomes apparent that Isshin is fairly oblivious to the existence of hollows, although he does recognize that there are spirits, and that Ichigo can see them.

There are a few examples, all of which could lean one way or the other in theory:
Example A: One of Ichigo's first encounters with a hollow leaves a large hole bore in the wall of his home. His father is convinced that it was a truck, as is the rest of his family.

Now the obvious response would be that Rukia had erased the memories of that family afterward. However, Isshin being a long-time Shinigami would (I would think) have some hunch as to otherwise.
He did not even sense the spiritual presence of the hollow, or other hollows that appear afterwards.

Such as the King Fisher, when the Kurosaki family visits the grave of Ichigo's mother, taking Karin and Yuzu hostage.
Or during Don Kanonji's first appearance in the series, attempting to perform an "execution" on a Demi-Hollow. Isshin claims to have not even heard the screams coming from this hollow, nor does he recognize Urahara's presence at said event.

There are debunk theories to this that mainly revolve around not blowing his cover, but his duties as a previous Soul Reaper (or at least my understanding of them) would mean that he would have at least attempted to intervene in such a situation, no?

Furthermore, he seems genuinely oblivious to these situations and really is nowhere to be found even when in close proximity to the location of a hollow.

There may be plot holes in my logic, but my theory is that Isshin was never meant to be an ex-Soul Reaper.


By the way, just joined these forums today, and look forward to being a part of the community! :D

Tabaro Foka
April 13, 2011, 05:27 PM
Isshin was shinigami.This is without a doubt.Isshin is very strong shinigami.He has definetly an intersting history in Soul Society and is kept in secret.If you look cerfully his haori was similar to White Coat of Captain Shinigami .Evey Captain Shinigami have inside of their haori different color-Hitsugaya-green,Soi Fon-orange,Shunsui-red,Ukitake-dark red,Byakuya-blue and so on.It is intersting that Isshin color inside is the samo color purple like this of 1 Division Captain Commander Yamamoto.Purple is the color commonly associated with royality is west coltures and with death in Asian culures.

In Japan murashaki(purple) was used by this of hight rank.So I will said that Isshin was of very hight rank in Soul Society not just a captain.Like we know so he is most likely Captain or vice-captain of 0 Squad.What will be shocking for me is that Isshin was former Captain comander of Gotei 13 and was promoted in 0 Squad.This will mean that Ishhin is over 1000 year old lol.

I think Isshin was from the noble clan that resides in Royal Dimension.Come on how many shinigamis have tehnique beyond bankai like Final Getsuga Tenshou.And Isshin said that Getsuga Tensho was mastered during the generation in his family.So for me Isshin was Royal Guard from the highest class.His clan always were in Royal Dimension.This is why none of Gotei 13 showed us to know Getsuga Tenshou or to hear about it.

It is really good move of Kubo that ripe off his Divison.How will react Gotei 13 or Ichigo whe see 0 Divison on his haori.I only wish to see Bayakya reaction lol.

He is father on the main hero of Bleach.He is 100% big fish like Luffy father the dragon and naruto the fourth hokage.Most of shounen mangas fathers of the main heroes are legendary and very powerfull in their worlds.

Exodi
April 13, 2011, 05:34 PM
I think the point packages was trying to make is that Isshin being a shinigami seems more like just something that happened as the story progressed, rather than being a part of Kubo's idea for the story from the beginning.

I don't necessarily agree. I like to think Isshin was acting the whole time while his only son was going around the city with a young woman and fighting evil monsters. -_-

Isshin explained to Kon that he never referred to him as Ichigo whenever he was inside Ichigo's body, so maybe there was some sort of planning on that part? Idk.

packages
April 13, 2011, 05:46 PM
I think the point packages was trying to make is that Isshin being a shinigami seems more like just something that happened as the story progressed, rather than being a part of Kubo's idea for the story from the beginning.

Exactly.
I see your point pertaining to Isshin pretending, and the evidence is there in the sense that it is not really there. You would never know whether or not Isshin ever referred to Kon as Ichigo, because there was never really any interaction shown between the two. Only suspicions of Kon not being very Ichigo like around his sisters. I suppose I'll have to continue watching the series from the start in order to fully form this hypothesis, taking into consideration the series and the manga do differ at times.

kazeofsilence
April 15, 2011, 03:41 PM
Kubo stated a few years ago that he knew/decided Isshin was a Shinigami since the end of the first chapter of Bleach. A fairly good example hinting at this actually was part of the Don Kanonji Introduction arc. Isshin tried to sneak away from Yuzu and Karinin the crowd in order to assist Ichigo when he was detained by the security for the event. Yuzu took notice and reprimanded him thinking that Isshin was trying to do the same as Ichigo and coincidently this scene also lead into the pre-introduction cameo of Uryuu.

Also, how Isshin acted in general through the beginning of the manga made it apparent that he was preparing Ichigo for the day he might have to defend himself from what was inevitably to come.

Takahashi
April 18, 2011, 01:53 PM
There's this too:

http://www.mangareader.net/94-641-11/bleach/chapter-187.html

I think Kubo definitely had a more subtle way of showing it, if it WAS an afterthought, he pulled it off quite nicely then :P

niblack89
April 19, 2011, 07:01 AM
Isshin was shinigami.This is without a doubt.Isshin is very strong shinigami.He has definetly an intersting history in Soul Society and is kept in secret.If you look cerfully his haori was similar to White Coat of Captain Shinigami .Evey Captain Shinigami have inside of their haori different color-Hitsugaya-green,Soi Fon-orange,Shunsui-red,Ukitake-dark red,Byakuya-blue and so on.It is intersting that Isshin color inside is the samo color purple like this of 1 Division Captain Commander Yamamoto.Purple is the color commonly associated with royality is west coltures and with death in Asian culures.

In Japan murashaki(purple) was used by this of hight rank.So I will said that Isshin was of very hight rank in Soul Society not just a captain.Like we know so he is most likely Captain or vice-captain of 0 Squad.What will be shocking for me is that Isshin was former Captain comander of Gotei 13 and was promoted in 0 Squad.This will mean that Ishhin is over 1000 year old lol.

I think Isshin was from the noble clan that resides in Royal Dimension.Come on how many shinigamis have tehnique beyond bankai like Final Getsuga Tenshou.And Isshin said that Getsuga Tensho was mastered during the generation in his family.So for me Isshin was Royal Guard from the highest class.His clan always were in Royal Dimension.This is why none of Gotei 13 showed us to know Getsuga Tenshou or to hear about it.

It is really good move of Kubo that ripe off his Divison.How will react Gotei 13 or Ichigo whe see 0 Divison on his haori.I only wish to see Bayakya reaction lol.

He is father on the main hero of Bleach.He is 100% big fish like Luffy father the dragon and naruto the fourth hokage.Most of shounen mangas fathers of the main heroes are legendary and very powerfull in their worlds.

You get reps for this. I don't give them out often. It was interesting it would make since, Isshin's Engetsu is extremely powerful and its getsuga tenshio is powerful even in base level its destructive power if great. Its power should been known at least to old man Yamamotto.

exacta
April 19, 2011, 10:05 AM
As someone already stated, Kubo already revealed in an interview that he pretty much planned Isshin being a shinigami from the beginning of this manga. When Grand Fisher escaped after his fight with Ichigo, and Isshin walked away from Ichigo and gave him advice that went something to the effect of "try and die smiling" or something, I felt that moment that Isshin knew something he wasn't letting on.

Tabaro Foka
April 19, 2011, 11:09 AM
Today reread the chapter 188 when Ishhin speak with Urahara.Isshin mantioned somehing very intersting that he was on mission to search for the Vizords.His words are"The crminal group of ex-shinigami that uses forbidden spells to acquire the power of hollows.We never found their base or operations nor uncovered their goals.They are a tough one".
http://www.mangareader.net/94-642-11/bleach/chapter-188.html

So Isshin wasn't alone when he searched them.Who do you think was with him?I think Isshin was with captain level shinigamis to search for them.Why because like we know Visored are former captains and vice captains.I think Isshin was send to elimnate them because they are dengarous or at least they said this to him.My theory is that Isshin was send with members of squad 0 to kill them.

Why Squad 0?

The Royal Guard is a special organization that performs services for the Royal family. It has a considerable amount of fighting, organizational, and executive power compared to other organizations.The royal guard's existence are extremely conceal that even the gotei 13 couldn't grasp their virtual conditions.

Why not Soul King to considers this former 4 captains and 4 vice captains for serious danger?And he send for the real world some shinigamis with skills and one of them was Isshin.But like old Kurosaki said they never found them and give up.And Isshin made his dession to live in Karakura town.What do you think?Is it possible?

shaheer
April 23, 2011, 12:17 AM
the Way Bleach is nothing is certain, it will b e like last minute certainity and next chapter every thing turned to be sth else with a hell lot of explanation which are trivial otherwise(like never calling ichigo by name when Kon was on, no one found it strange esp when ppl generally dont say ichigo do this ichigo do that rather do this do that when they are talking)
i wager kubo made the plot go as he pleased
he never had anything planned after SS arc which explains Y the poor quality after the superb saving rukia arc and to bring back the polularity similar (saving orihime) arc

Uriel
April 23, 2011, 06:10 PM
I will follow main theory and say that for me it makes sense. After all, He did not showed his full power. One would thought that at the given circumstances, it was a given need that He fight with all his might. Yet He did not. And I seriously starting to doubt that He doesn't know his Bankai after all the speech of Zangetsu and everything.
I think He was saving his power in case Aizen went for the Soul King.

Newkerzy
June 01, 2011, 03:14 AM
I've always felt that Isshin was likely a 4th Division member before he went on to become a captain of another division (I'm putting my bet on the 10th) kinda like how Izuru was a former 4th Division member before he was transferred to 3rd. Reason why I think that Isshin was a former 4th Division member is the fact that he took on the job as a doctor and running his own clinic. I mean, it just seems suspicious if he suddenly chose being a doctor as his cover-up. He HAD to have had some prior knowledge about medicine. With Unohana as his former captain, I have no doubt that's how he was able to keep up his cover of being a doctor.

BleachOD
June 07, 2011, 05:54 PM
I've always felt that Isshin was likely a 4th Division member before he went on to become a captain of another division (I'm putting my bet on the 10th) kinda like how Izuru was a former 4th Division member before he was transferred to 3rd. Reason why I think that Isshin was a former 4th Division member is the fact that he took on the job as a doctor and running his own clinic. I mean, it just seems suspicious if he suddenly chose being a doctor as his cover-up. He HAD to have had some prior knowledge about medicine. With Unohana as his former captain, I have no doubt that's how he was able to keep up his cover of being a doctor.

I was just about to say that!!! They have specialties....I think he's tied to the fourth division

ca12nag3
June 08, 2011, 07:09 AM
Something about Isshin doesn't add up. Nobody remembers him or his last name > see Ichigo. If the Kurosaki name was that of a shinigami of that lvl of power as he possesses then surely the older captains would have guessed that this KUROSAKI is his son.
Yet non of them responds at the matter. However Yamamoto surely does know him, hes so old he must know. Brings me to it that hes hiding something along with Urahara.

Also if he really wanted to stop the invaders from reaching Rukia he could have intervened much earlier. And even stop Ichigo dead in his tracks. Yet he let it go on till the point of Aizen stepping in. I think if he wanted he could have blown Ichigo away and let Rukia be executed right there. I mean Yamamoto really is that powerful. Also his speed and sense of powers is extreme, see how he already arrived at the spot the 2 captains went to + he noticed the step to get nana away of battle.
So that leaves 2 options, or maybe 2 co-existing options.
-He knows something is off with this execution though hes prohibited to enter the court. So hes waiting for the culprit to arrive *Aizen*
-&/or Hes protecting the Kurosaki identity, which is still not revealed. So what im saying is that Yamamoto is in on it as well. There is no other way.

Back to Isshin well Ichigo has been shown to have a mysterious power all along, so having it just come from Rukia is out of the question. So it had to be either his mother or father. So its always been in the plan to have Isshin as Shinigami. However im not ruling out that his mother used to be as well.

http://www.goodmanga.net/bleach/chapter/175/16 Here is my clue to why i think his mother used to be shinigami as well.

Now why i say this is that it would make sense. And in the same time explain why Ichigo looks like Kaien, if Ichigos mother was Kaiens sister, married to a commoner (be it a captain lvl shinigami but still a commoner) And why Ichigo isnt named a Shiba.

I go on to far but i think its all planned out :)

tret16
June 12, 2011, 01:32 PM
lol, did anyone bother to think that maybe when Isshin left soul society he simply changed his name to Kurosaki? Anyone? That would explain why no one knew the name Kurosaki from the start.

White Rose
June 12, 2011, 10:01 PM
Or maybe the shinigamis didnt mind the name

BlitzRonin
June 14, 2011, 11:36 AM
I am still hoping that Isshin's last name isn't Kurosaki myself...

I was thinking he's Shunsui's older brother... In one of the data books it said Shunsui was the second son of the noble Kyoraku family... Why the hell would they put that detail in there if his older brother wasn't important?

I mean if you look at Isshin and Shunsui... they are look very similar... Both are laid back, immensely powerful... most likely the top two most powerful pure Shinigami out there if you don't count the old man...

I do like him being the Captain of 0 Squad though too.

Epic_Rider
June 14, 2011, 11:52 AM
I am still hoping that Isshin's last name isn't Kurosaki myself...

I was thinking he's Shunsui's older brother... In one of the data books it said Shunsui was the second son of the noble Kyoraku family... Why the hell would they put that detail in there if his older brother wasn't important?

I mean if you look at Isshin and Shunsui... they are look very similar... Both are laid back, immensely powerful... most likely the top two most powerful pure Shinigami out there if you don't count the old man...

I do like him being the Captain of 0 Squad though too.

The part about Isshin maybe being Kyoraku's older brother is interesting.

The usual fan theory is that Isshin is a Shiba, since Ichigo resembles Kaien so much, but Isshin being Kyoraku's brother would be refreshingly interesting indeed.

llamapie
June 14, 2011, 01:08 PM
Let me preface.

I've read all of the chapters up until currently, (waiting on 444.) I've also watched most of the anime and understand where the plots weave in and out of one another.
I've just recently, thanks to Netflix begun watching Bleach from the beginning again. During the first 11 or so episodes, it becomes apparent that Isshin is fairly oblivious to the existence of hollows, although he does recognize that there are spirits, and that Ichigo can see them.

There are a few examples, all of which could lean one way or the other in theory:
Example A: One of Ichigo's first encounters with a hollow leaves a large hole bore in the wall of his home. His father is convinced that it was a truck, as is the rest of his family.

Now the obvious response would be that Rukia had erased the memories of that family afterward. However, Isshin being a long-time Shinigami would (I would think) have some hunch as to otherwise.
He did not even sense the spiritual presence of the hollow, or other hollows that appear afterwards.

Such as the King Fisher, when the Kurosaki family visits the grave of Ichigo's mother, taking Karin and Yuzu hostage.
Or during Don Kanonji's first appearance in the series, attempting to perform an "execution" on a Demi-Hollow. Isshin claims to have not even heard the screams coming from this hollow, nor does he recognize Urahara's presence at said event.

There are debunk theories to this that mainly revolve around not blowing his cover, but his duties as a previous Soul Reaper (or at least my understanding of them) would mean that he would have at least attempted to intervene in such a situation, no?

Furthermore, he seems genuinely oblivious to these situations and really is nowhere to be found even when in close proximity to the location of a hollow.

There may be plot holes in my logic, but my theory is that Isshin was never meant to be an ex-Soul Reaper.


By the way, just joined these forums today, and look forward to being a part of the community! :D

What we don't know about ishan is why he is hiding his shinigami powers from his family. That is the reason he seemed to be playing dumb in the opening arc.

My theory has been that he holds guilt in the death of his wife. There is no way he didn't know Ichigo was a shinigami for so long. I think Ishan was the direct and primary reason his wife died, and there is still a lot of mystery there.

kazeofsilence
June 14, 2011, 08:01 PM
Isshin regrets some things, however let us thinking about this: Isshin stated he did not blame Grandfisher for killing Masaki because Grandfisher was a hollow being a hollow. Yet Grandfisher was also working for Aizen ala Di Roy and Aisslinger. Could he thereforehave blamed Aizen for her death? Hard to tell I would say without a direct statement by Isshin.

It is highly likely that Isshin fully expects his children to show signs of and eventually become shinigami, however by the looks of it he would prefer that they didn't. Hence his actions to try and stop Ichigo from regaining his powers and his overprotective nature of his daughters.

BleachOD
June 19, 2011, 03:56 PM
the Way Bleach is nothing is certain, it will b e like last minute certainity and next chapter every thing turned to be sth else with a hell lot of explanation which are trivial otherwise(like never calling ichigo by name when Kon was on, no one found it strange esp when ppl generally dont say ichigo do this ichigo do that rather do this do that when they are talking)
i wager kubo made the plot go as he pleased
he never had anything planned after SS arc which explains Y the poor quality after the superb saving rukia arc and to bring back the polularity similar (saving orihime) arcHow come Bleach fans will not give Kubo credit for the things that he OBVIOUSLY planned? What's with that? Personally I think Bleach manga is superb in it's entirety and not just the SS Rukia rescue arc. Fans accuse Kubo of leaving things unexplained and accuse him forgetting characters when he proves all the time, that he hasn't forgotten a damn thing and he doesn't make sh-t up on the fly. Shinji was planned from day one, and long before he was formally introduced... and it was said early in Bleach manga that "someone" sent hollows after Ichigo and that "someone" turned out to be Aizen...fans accused him of forgetting about Super Chunky (Fura) and he showed with WW entrance to FKT arc, that he hadn't forgotten him at all.
Isshin says IIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO so I have to disagree that Isshin doesn't say his son's name....as for not calling Kon, Ichigo when he's in Ichigo's body it's supposed to have happened "off panel" There are some thing in the story that does not take place where the reader can see it. He tells you that it happened and you're supposed to take his word that it indeed happened because he can't waste time drawing every little conversation. Just like when a Rukia talked about the stripes changing on Ichigo's mask and half the fandom was up in arms trying to figure out "how" she knew about it...when the most logical explanation is...someone told her about it. This is the same thing....Ichigo was in SS, while Kon stayed in at home in his body, with his family the ENTIRE TIME Ichigo was GONE. At some point they had to talk, but Kubo can't waste pages to show that...
besides if you look at the MITR chapters again you will see that Isshin noticed that Kon was not Ichigo --

Because Rukia transferred Kon from the lion doll into Ichigo's soulless body
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7614/sbodyl.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/sbodyl.jpg/)http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8127/sbody2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/sbody2.jpg/)


then they talk before Rukia goes to Ichigo's side
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3200/talkingtokon.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/talkingtokon.jpg/)http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3365/talkingtokon2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/talkingtokon2.jpg/)


then you see Isshin notice that was not Ichigo and he only called him "you" and "he"
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1660/skon.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/skon.jpg/)http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7861/skon2.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/skon2.jpg/)
Isshin is in the building behind them, as all of this was going on, and he reveals that he saw Rukia transfer Kon into Ichigo's body when he saves him from GF
Thus it proves that Isshin being a Shinigami was not made up on the fly and planned long before the reveal

Ichigo described Rukia when she first appeared in his room.Isshin pretended he didn't know what a Shinigami was, because he couldn't see her, and he was keeping his being a Shinigami from Ichigo. I knew from the first episode (I started out with the anime first) that Isshin was a Shinigami because of the way he attacked Ichigo all the time. It was obvious to me that he was "training him" to fight. He also makes it so that Karen attacks him, instead of attacking her like he does Ichigo. But it's obvious--well at least it was obvious to me that Isshin was "training her" too. Yuzu doesn't have that much spiritual powers so most hollow won't go after her, unless she just happens to be around. Like in the case of the GrandFisher...so it's obvious...at least to me that Isshin doesn't do the same to her, because he doesn't feel that Yuzu will be threatened like Ichigo and Karen both of whom are "High Spec" ..in short, it's not something Kubo just pulled out of his ass, like most fans claim he does. Despite him proving time and time again that he actually puts A LOT OF THOUGHT into Bleach manga. He just doesn't get the credit he deserves

*is a BIG BIG KUBO FANGIRL*

Nieuwsgierig
July 06, 2011, 08:59 AM
If Isshin wasn't supposed to be a Shinigami since the start somewhere, why did Kubo bother to change his first chapter? Originally Isshin was at home when the house was attacked; by the time of the anime/volume it was changed to him being absent.

neloangelo8909
July 26, 2011, 12:38 PM
after studying the marks on isshins jacket i actually came down to two logical choices for what squads he could've been captain of. first theres the 10th squad which his jacket seems to match, markings on bottom, but the color under it seems to be off since its more the color of the the 3rd squads and if he wore it like gin did then its possible for him to have half of it, look at gins from behind and you'l notice its split at the botom.

You know he could have been captain of squad 10 or 3 and been promoted to squad zero but as is we just dont know enough about isshin and that story is still shrouded in mystery.

Ero-Sanji
July 26, 2011, 02:06 PM
after studying the marks on isshins jacket i actually came down to two logical choices for what squads he could've been captain of. first theres the 10th squad which his jacket seems to match, markings on bottom, but the color under it seems to be off since its more the color of the the 3rd squads and if he wore it like gin did then its possible for him to have half of it, look at gins from behind and you'l notice its split at the botom.

You know he could have been captain of squad 10 or 3 and been promoted to squad zero but as is we just dont know enough about isshin and that story is still shrouded in mystery.

Very, interesting and I think I'm about to join the "Isshin - former captain of the 10 squad" club. The reason why I think this could be it is because at the "turning back the pendulum" flashback event the leader of the tenth squad was absent. Another source claimed that he had fallen in battle at some point in time. But for a mangaka to leave such a person out is very questionable and I'm sure this person will eventually be introduced and maybe it'll be Kurosaki Isshin.

NinjaPenguinator
July 26, 2011, 08:39 PM
I feel the same way as the OP except with a different character. I've always wondered if Aizen was meant to be a villain at first, or if Kubo just couldn't bear to see any captains die, so he made him into a villain instead of just killing him off >.>