Killer Bee vs Hashirama

[vintagemistakes]

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/8750/killerbeevshashirama.jpg

this keeps the others ones nicely aligned


The son of the Third and little brother of the Fourth Raikage, Killer Bee is an extremely powerful shinobi and a master swordsman. His sword style is extremely unique as Bee uses seven swords at the same time. His movement while using his swords is so unorthodox and unpredictable that even the Sharingan has trouble keeping up. Bee is also the Jinchuuriki of the Eight-Tails and the definition of a perfect Jinchuuriki. In addition Bee is a master of the lightning element, often using it to enhance his weapons to increase their cutting and piercing power. Bee is also able to produce ink and is highly resistant to genjutsu thanks to his Jinchuuriki powers.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned


Widely considered the most powerful Shinobi of his time, Senju Hashirama was the leader of the Senju clan; one of the most powerful clans in the Naruto World. After years of constant fighting, he along with the leader of the Uchiha Clan, allied together and created Konoha.

Most notably known for his unique Mokuton (wood release) Kekkei Genkai ability, Senju Hashirama was not just a one trick pony. Along with being able to tame and control bijuu, he was extremely adept at using scrolls and even Genjutsu. His Bringer of darkness genjutsu would envelop his opponents in darkness and prevent them from seeing any attack.
this keeps the others ones nicely aligned

Cast your vote and discuss (logically) why you voted for who you voted for. Have fun, but keep it clean!

[chilibun]

Even though we know very little about Hashirama, I'm going to have to go with him on this one. His moukuton skills are perfect for dealing with Beast mode and seems to have a chakra absorbing ability to it. Bee, outside of channeling raiton chakra into objects and the sword dance, has been very reliant on Hachibi's abilities. I'm thinking Harshirama who has tamed tailed beasts should have a way to deal with that. This is just what I'm thinking right now. I'm gonna have to refer back to the manga for more substance.

[kakashidad]

Man,these match up are just not right...lol.I've gotta go with Harashirma senju for this one.But it will be one epic battle.As gifted as bee maybe,with his byuui.I feel that the shodaine would just seal his ass.Quick time...I did'nt hesitate to cast my votes in the first round.And the only one i got wrong thru bias imo lol.Was sakura vs chouji.

[benelori]

This taming of Bijuus is a tricky business in my opinion...Yamato needed to seal Naruto's movements in order to get him on that chakra leash, to tame Kyuubi etc...

I think if Hashirama can't keep up, then he won't be able to tame Hachibi...this changes if Bee turns into full Bijuu mode, but while Bee is in version 2 for example...hmm...I think Hashirama's control abilities are useless in this case

[Rikudou King]

I'm gonna go with Kirabi. As far as we know, Kirabi has the edge in speed and raw power, so blitzing Hashirama will do plenty of damage even without the Hachibi's help. He should be able to cut through Hashirama's trees using his lightning charged swords. And while Hashirama can prevent Kirabi from using his cloak forms, he can't prevent the Hachibi from giving Kirabi chakra or helping him out of genjutsu. So Kirabi won't be blinded by his genjutsu and should be able to outlast Hashirama chakrawise.

[3c]

About Hashirama's Bijuu taming methods, to be honest I doubt that would work on a Jinchuuriki. For starters Hachibi is on Bee's side, and secondly Bee has perfect control over his beast. Like we saw when Hachibi came out to explain the risks of Rikudou Mode to Naruto (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/519/9), Bee is the person fighting in Hachibi's form, Hachibi is still inside chilling in his dark hangout. So essentially Hashirama's Bijuu taming methods will be useless as he can't tame a human being but only Bijuu (or wild Bijuu).

With his Bijuu control useless, it comes down to pure force vs force. Basically we have to judge if Hashirama's wood can hold Bee down when he's in full Hachibi mode. Judging by this panel (http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-12/naruto/chapter-399.html) we know that Hashirama can produce massive amounts of wood (also seen vs Hiruzen), so it's not unlikely that he can hold Bee down with his wood if he captures him.

I think Bee's safest bet would be to not go into full Hachibi mode, but only use version 1 and 2. It will make him a speed monster and a much smaller target = harder to catch. It's also likely that Bee can use his swords while in version 1 or base form enhanced with lightning chakra to break out or destroy Hashirama's wood techniques (http://www.mangareader.net/93-314-10/naruto/chapter-309.html) like seen with Sasuke vs Yamato.

Another hard fight, honestly I don't think this is easy at all for Hashirama. I actually think Bee is a formidable opponent for him. His genjutsu is useless too so that's another minus for Hashirama.

[huynhlan]

I will go with hashirama, his abilities make him the worst opponent for bee, and bee is not exactly bright either so him coming on top in this fight is hard to image, plus if danzou can grow a tree faster than the arrow shot by sasuke's susanoo, than it doesn't matter how fast bee is, the 1st can creat a forest and it won't take much time. which in the end will restrict bee, there by ending the battle.

[3c]

I will go with hashirama, his abilities make him the worst opponent for bee, and bee is not exactly bright either so him coming on top in this fight is hard to image, plus if danzou can grow a tree faster than the arrow shot by sasuke's susanoo, than it doesn't matter how fast bee is, the 1st can creat a forest and it won't take much time. which in the end will restrict bee, there by ending the battle.

I think Bee will just destroy Hashirama's attempts of incapacitating him. Hashirama tamed wild Bijuu (animals), none of them have shown much intellect except Hachibi and Kyuubi. Shukaku was a raging moron for example. Bee can use version 1 and 2 to become a smaller and faster target, and his hits pack a real punch when in those modes. Sabu even thought Kisame's head would fly after Bee's headbutt. Not to mention that Hashirama's Bijuu control abilities and genjutsu should be useless, and Bee can use lightning attacks to slice through his wood like it was butter.

[AlB]

Well, no one can deny Hashirama's historical accomplishments - he had enough firepower to make it out alive from the fight against full-powered EMS Madara and batshit crazy Kyuubi. That, and his level of Mokuton mastery is much higher than Yamato's. Yamato could stop Kyuubi Jinchuriki with difficulty, why should Hashirama be in any trouble against Hachibi Jinchuriki?

Jinchurikis might not be morons, but neither is Hashirama. Since he is famous for capturing and sealing Bijuus we are free to assume that he has couple of trapping techs under his sleeve.

[3c]

Well, no one can deny Hashirama's historical accomplishments - he had enough firepower to make it out alive from the fight against full-powered EMS Madara and batshit crazy Kyuubi. That, and his level of Mokuton mastery is much higher than Yamato's. Yamato could stop Kyuubi Jinchuriki with difficulty, why should Hashirama be in any trouble against Hachibi Jinchuriki?

Yamato stopped a 4KN standing still like a wild beast. Bee would actively try to avoid his mokuton and try to fend it off whenever necessary. Plus Bee will use 8 tails when in version 1 and 2, and will probably be more powerful than a 4-tailed Naruto in version 2. Also Hashirama's fight vs Madara was obviously not 1 v 2, it was him and Mito vs Madara and Kyuubi, and Hashirama had Bijuu taming abilities so Kyuubi was cancelled out easily. His Bijuu taming won't work now because it's not a Bijuu fighting, it's Bee who's in control. He can't hax control people, there's no evidence of that. So his Bijuu taming is useless, as is his genjutsu.

[ninjabot]

While it's true that Hashirama's ability to control Bijuu doesn't guarantee he can control Jinchuuriki in bijuu form, there isn't a strong enough argument against it either based on no event ever actually happening in the manga. Madara controlled the Kyuubi through Genjutsu, but that didn't stop Hashirama from "dealing with" the Kyuubi, however he did it.

With that logic, if it's genuine control over the bijuu itself then I don't think Bee could hinder it by the simple fact that Bee and Hachibi aren't one being, but two consciousnesses. That's why they can break Genjutsu control on eachother, where as Naruto wouldn't be able to because Kyuubi isn't allowed any partnership with Naruto. He's just a battery now.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that Bee's bijuu chakra could possibly be subdued to the point that he can't use it at all, but with no way to prove so, I'm giving the win to Bee based on elite and unorthodox taijutsu, and raiton charged weaponry (that would make Mokuton a waste).

[3c]

I don't see why Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's. Bee was mentioned at the same time as Hashirama as one of the four to be able to fully control tailed beasts (in this case Bee can only control his own obviously). If anything their control would cancel eachother out and Bee would be left in control as it results in a stalemate. The only way for Hashirama to even begin the attempt of controlling Hachibi in the first place would be to first capture Bee, which would be a feat in itself, even then there's no indication that Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's.

[hakuthehedgehog]

I'm giving this to Hashirama, due to his abilities to make v2 Bee useless, water jutsu prowess, and ninjutsu.

Seriously, Hashirama can create a mini-forest and then meld into it, making himself almost impervious to physical damage.

He also has water ninjutsu, which could help stop Bee's crazy spinning sword move.

Also, let's not forget a weaker version of mokuton deflected a Susano'o arrow, so I'm guessing Mokuton wouldn't be a waste against Bee's lighting chakra swords.

[benelori]

I'm giving this to Hashirama, due to his abilities to make v2 Bee useless, water jutsu prowess, and ninjutsu.

Seriously, Hashirama can create a mini-forest and then meld into it, making himself almost impervious to physical damage.

He also has water ninjutsu, which could help stop Bee's crazy spinning sword move.

Also, let's not forget a weaker version of mokuton deflected a Susano'o arrow, so I'm guessing Mokuton wouldn't be a waste against Bee's lighting chakra swords.

Well even if we saw that Mokuton users can use water, we don't really know Hashirama's skill with it...
[hr]
The only thing that imo makes Bee very dangerous in this matchup is the speed, and I don't think Hashirama can account for that, despite all his god mode abilities...so I'm leaning more and more towards Bee

[huynhlan]

I don't see why Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's. Bee was mentioned at the same time as Hashirama as one of the four to be able to fully control tailed beasts (in this case Bee can only control his own obviously). If anything their control would cancel eachother out and Bee would be left in control as it results in a stalemate. The only way for Hashirama to even begin the attempt of controlling Hachibi in the first place would be to first capture Bee, which would be a feat in itself, even then there's no indication that Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's.

Actually there are indication of hashirama control outranking bee. The indication is that his control is supirior to madara, who was able to control a perfect jin. like bee the 4th mizukage.
and another thing hashirama's tech. are hard to tell where it pop up from, what what we know he can create it from any place he want it too, like bee running straight at him, when suddenly a tree pop out of nowhere in front of bee, and the branch's start to move in to restrict him.

[benelori]

Actually there are indication of hashirama control outranking bee. The indication is that his control is supirior to madara, who was able to control a perfect jin. like bee the 4th mizukage.
and another thing hashirama's tech. are hard to tell where it pop up from, what what we know he can create it from any place he want it too, like bee running straight at him, when suddenly a tree pop out of nowhere in front of bee, and the branch's start to move in to restrict him.

Each control is different...one has a special chakra, one has special eyes, the other is cooperating...I don't remember any indication that one is superior to the other...
For the strength and chakra of a jinchuuriki I hardly believe that some branches would be a great deal...

[3c]

Actually there are indication of hashirama control outranking bee. The indication is that his control is supirior to madara, who was able to control a perfect jin. like bee the 4th mizukage.
and another thing hashirama's tech. are hard to tell where it pop up from, what what we know he can create it from any place he want it too, like bee running straight at him, when suddenly a tree pop out of nowhere in front of bee, and the branch's start to move in to restrict him.

Like benelori said, every control is different. It's not A > B > C = A > C.

We know very little about the Madara vs Hashirama fight. Minato even said that even Madara can't control Kyuubi for long, maybe Hashirama never even fought for the control? In the picture of the fight Kyuubi is obviously on Madara's side so it's not like Hashirama came and just clapped his hands and had Kyuubi under control. Maybe he only took control once Madara lost the ability to maintain it. Too little is known about his control and fight, the scenarios are too different and every control is different.

His random mokuton abilities are Bee's toughest challenge in my opinion, and it wouldn't be easy to capture Bee. Even then Bee would just turn instantly into full Hachibi mode to break the branches and then revert back to version 1 or 2.

[huynhlan]

Each control is different...one has a special chakra, one has special eyes, the other is cooperating...I don't remember any indication that one is superior to the other...
For the strength and chakra of a jinchuuriki I hardly believe that some branches would be a great deal...

But still the special chackra guy was able to overcome the control use by the special eye guy that mean the chackra guy's control is stronger, and the eye guy was able to control the guy with cooperation didn't he. and didn't yamato use some tree to stop an enrage naruto, and if I remeber correctly didn't yamato said his tech. were way less supririor then the first?

@3c, minato never said madara couldn't keep the kuybi under control for a short while, he said he couldn't keep it summon, that a big different.

[ninjabot]

I don't see why Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's. Bee was mentioned at the same time as Hashirama as one of the four to be able to fully control tailed beasts (in this case Bee can only control his own obviously). If anything their control would cancel eachother out and Bee would be left in control as it results in a stalemate. The only way for Hashirama to even begin the attempt of controlling Hachibi in the first place would be to first capture Bee, which would be a feat in itself, even then there's no indication that Hashirama's control would outrank Bee's.


Because it's not control in the literal sense, from what Bee explained. It's a symbiotic relationship, really. Cooperation as opposed to subjugation. Even with what Naruto's done with the Kyuubi, he's not controlling it. He's simply keepign it at bay while sapping it's chakra. With Hashirama however, we don't know whether he's controlling him in the way that Madara does or what. Infact, Madara's control is the only control I would consider "direct".

We do know that he has the power to subdue a bijuu stronger than the Hachibi though. Leads me to believe if a tug of war started for who could manipulate the Hachibi into doing what he wants, the one who can control the stronger bijuu would win. But it's still all just speculation, hence my vote.

[3c]

But still the special chackra guy was able to overcome the control use by the special eye guy that mean the chackra guy's control is stronger, and the wye guy was able to control the guy with cooperation didn't he. and didn't yamato use some tree to stop an enrage naruto, and if I remeber correctly didn't yamato said his tech. were way less supririor then the first?

We don't know if Yagura was friends with the Sanbi or not so his situation can be different to Bee's. Plus like I said we don't know the details of Hashirama's fight with Madara, it's not even certain that he took control of the fox from Madara, maybe Madara lost control first on his own.

Yamato took advantage of Naruto Kyuubi focusing on slapping Sakura and wrapped wood around him. Even then the wood broke and Yamato managed to be fast enough with his suppression technique. For starters Bee's version 2 with 8 tails is most definitely more powerful than a 4 tailed Naruto, and secondly the suppression may not work as it's too unknown whether Hashirama's control can outrank Bee's. At best it would result in a stalemate with the information we have, which means that Hashirama's technique would be a waste and Bee would keep control and rage on. Plus like I said in the above post, if Hashirama catches Bee he can just quickly go into full Hachibi mode to break the wood easily and then revert back to version 1 or 2.

[benelori]

But still the special chackra guy was able to overcome the control use by the special eye guy that mean the chackra guy's control is stronger, and the wye guy was able to control the guy with cooperation didn't he. and didn't yamato use some tree to stop an enrage naruto, and if I remeber correctly didn't yamato said his tech. were way less supririor then the first?

@3c, minato never said madara couldn't keep the kuybi under control for a short while, he said he couldn't keep it summon, that a big different.

You mean the Madara vs Hashirama fight? Hmmm...that is pretty vague...from latest informations, Hashirama's wife was there as well and she contributed as well...I don't really like to consider circumstances or other fights when we have pretty good idea about the fighters themselves...
That's why Yamato's tech doesn't really matter here, because Naruto wasn't moving at that time, so he could restrict him...

One thing is clear...to control a bijuu, first it needs to get to the Bijuu chakra...assuming Bee will fight using Hachibi's chakra, will Hashirama be fast enough to catch him? I don't think so...speed is an overwhelming thing when we're talking about a Jinchuuriki, not to mention power...
Along with that crazy swordstyle and the fact that we know lightning infused swords cut through wood, Hashirama has no real deal to counter Bee's speed and no defense to counter his power...

The only thing I can see as a disadvantage to that great speed is the fact that the movement is linear...but without an eye like he Sharingan, I find it very difficult to react to such speeds...so I gave this to Bee

[ceasar]

Hashirama had at one point control of all the nine bijuu which means a fully powered kyubi with all of its chakra. Mokuton and the earth and water mastery that comes with having that ability give hashirama the advantage. Bee struggled against kisame a water jutsu specialist and suigetsu held him up a little. If mokuton can nullify bijuu power then it becomes a fight of jutsu and hashirama has the advantage.

[benelori]

Hashirama had at one point control of all the nine bijuu which means a fully powered kyubi with all of its chakra. Mokuton and the earth and water mastery that comes with having that ability give hashirama the advantage bee struggled against kisame a water jutsu specialist and suigetsu. If mokuton can nullify bijuu power then it becomes a fight of jutsu and hashirama has the advantage.

Question is...can he really nullify it, while Bee is one the move and attacking...I can see the power in Hashirama to control nine bijuus, but it's a fact that Bijuus are large targets, not to mention the fact that the power of a Jinchuuriki is far beyond that a of a Bijuu

[3c]

Because it's not control in the literal sense, from what Bee explained. It's a symbiotic relationship, really. Cooperation as opposed to subjugation. Even with what Naruto's done with the Kyuubi, he's not controlling it. He's simply keepign it at bay while sapping it's chakra. With Hashirama however, we don't know whether he's controlling him in the way that Madara does or what. Infact, Madara's control is the only control I would consider "direct".

We do know that he has the power to subdue a bijuu stronger than the Hachibi though. Leads me to believe if a tug of war started for who could manipulate the Hachibi into doing what he wants, the one who can control the stronger bijuu would win. But it's still all just speculation, hence my vote.

Bee and Hachibi started off like Naruto and Kyuubi (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/519/10), so initially Bee had "control" over Hachibi like Naruto has over Kyuubi now. He put him down until they became friends. So Bee pretty much learned to have and still has full control over his Bijuu, just like Danzou said. If Hachibi were to suddenly rage against him he would just slam him down most likely like Naruto does now with Kyuubi.

Like you I'm also voting for Bee. Too little is known about Hashirama's control, and I can think of many counters for Bee that would cancel out Hashirama's attempts to control Hachibi, that's excluding the fact that I believe Hashirama's control would fail. Then it's the Jinchuuriki super speed and power (Bijuu blasts and raw physical power/defense) + lightning swords = Bee's win.

[Naruffy]

Going with Hashirama since he was able to fight evenly with the Kyuubi and a fully powered Madara. I don't think it'd be as simple as Bee overpowering or speed-blitzing Hashirama to win this fight.

[3c]

Hashirama had at one point control of all the nine bijuu which means a fully powered kyubi with all of its chakra. Mokuton and the earth and water mastery that comes with having that ability give hashirama the advantage. Bee struggled against kisame a water jutsu specialist and suigetsu held him up a little. If mokuton can nullify bijuu power then it becomes a fight of jutsu and hashirama has the advantage.

Bee struggled against Kisame (a suiton user) because of his chakra absorbing abilities, not because of his suiton. Had it not been for Bee wanting to keep his cover from the Raikage he could have used Bijuu blasts and/or full Hachibi mode to escape the dome which was the only suiton technique Kisame used against him. Not to mention having to save his friends.

Too little is known about Hashirama's control over Kyuubi at that night and his control in general. We don't know if Bee's control would be superior or cause a stalemate with Hashirama. Assuming Hashirama even can control Hachibi when it's Bee fighting, not Hachibi, he would have to capture him first, something which won't be easy when Bee is speedblitzing around in a 8 tailed version 2 form and actively trying to fend off his mokuton attacks.

[jaymizzo]

Honestly this fight is sort of unfair, in the sense that Hashirama has been hyped up by easily the strongest person on Narutoverse at the moment, but we have seen so much from bee and so little from Hashirama to even compare.

Personally i choose hashirama because i only think its logical, considering He went toe to toe with EMS Madara + the Kyuubi........

[insid3rkill3r]

I agree, we know next to nothing about Hashimara, except that he was praised as being the greatest of his time along with Madara.

According to the manga, Sasuke's lightning attacks are outclassing Mokuton a great deal, turning it into dust, but for the simply fact that Hashimara and Madara were hyped so damn much, i still consider them to be a on whole other level.

Oonoki, who just like any of us, saw the strength of the current shinobis in the Naruto universe, considered that Madara, being strong as he was back then, should be able to do anything. While we know Prime Madara was most-likely nothing more than Amaterasu + Tsukuyomi + Susano, we have seen how hard it was for Sasuke to go toe to toe against Raikage.

My point is that hype plays an important part when it comes to Hashimara and Prime Madara, and for that reason, i'm having a hard time believing Bee really would be able to get passed him.

[bhasty]

You mean the Madara vs Hashirama fight? Hmmm...that is pretty vague...from latest informations, Hashirama's wife was there as well and she contributed as well...I don't really like to consider circumstances or other fights when we have pretty good idea about the fighters themselves...
That's why Yamato's tech doesn't really matter here, because Naruto wasn't moving at that time, so he could restrict him...

I think kushina stated that in hashirama and madara fight, Hashirama gain control over the kyubi.. and in order to better aid hashirama, his wife sealed the kyubi in her own body.. I think the manga never shown/stated that hasirama's wife was there as well at the fight between hashirama and madara..

The thing is, hashirama can control a bijuu like a pet.. He even control/defeated the full power of the kyubi and madara with a powerful sharingan.. So Bee/hachibi is nothing compared to hashirama..


One thing is clear...to control a bijuu, first it needs to get to the Bijuu chakra...assuming Bee will fight using Hachibi's chakra, will Hashirama be fast enough to catch him? I don't think so...speed is an overwhelming thing when we're talking about a Jinchuuriki, not to mention power...
Along with that crazy swordstyle and the fact that we know lightning infused swords cut through wood, Hashirama has no real deal to counter Bee's speed and no defense to counter his power...

Yamato is nothing compared to hashirama.. Yamato's mokuton can even hold the kyubi's tail of naruto.. HE can even suppress the kyubi's chakra of naruto with his some kind of a wood sealing technique.. Maybe hashirama mokuton/wood sealing technique can suppress hachibi chakra with ease..

Bee's lightning sword can cut through hashirama's wood.. But the thing is, hashirama can create a forest and he can attack bee with his wood in any angle at the same time..

[DEATHBOTT]

i love bee and i think he is the second strongest character in the manga right now after tobi but hashirama has biju supressing powers and went head to head with a ems user and a fully powered kyubi. kind of annoyed bee is up against him in the first round and i think he would of got far in the tournament otherwise. voting hashi.

[Delbi]

Yamato showed us that Moukton supresses Kyuubi chakra. If he's just a "cheap copy" of Hashirama, then I see no reason why Hashirama can surpress Hachibi's chakra and rape Bee.

This has nothing to do with who has more "control" over the Biju. Fact remains Hashirama can surpress the chakra whether or not Bee has control over it since it's the chakra of a Biju.

Now, with Bee limited to just his jutsu and normal speed I don't see how he could defeat someone who was equal to Uchiha Madara in his prime. Bad match-up for Bee, one of the worst for him aside from Kisame.

[ceasar]

Bee struggled against Kisame (a suiton user) because of his chakra absorbing abilities, not because of his suiton. Had it not been for Bee wanting to keep his cover from the Raikage he could have used Bijuu blasts and/or full Hachibi mode to escape the dome which was the only suiton technique Kisame used against him. Not to mention having to save his friends.

Too little is known about Hashirama's control over Kyuubi at that night and his control in general. We don't know if Bee's control would be superior or cause a stalemate with Hashirama. Assuming Hashirama even can control Hachibi when it's Bee fighting, not Hachibi, he would have to capture him first, something which won't be easy when Bee is speedblitzing around in a 8 tailed version 2 form and actively trying to fend off his mokuton attacks.

The fact is hashirama can suppress bijuu chakra so he can suppress the hachibi chakra bee use's making the transformation's manageable even if bee could speed blitz around. Hashirama can play defense and enclose himself in his mokuton and make be attack him if bee gets caught with mokuton he loses.

The first hokage is the founder of the hidden leaf and the strongest shinobi of his time period the kages now even think they are unbeatable. As stated by oonoki when referencing the power of madara who hashirama defeated along with mito. If oonoki who has seen the jins in action believes madara by himself could defeat them all why wouldn't the man who beat madara not be able too.

[Raizen]

I am leaning towards Harashima.

Bee is a cool character and very powerful. But I truly believe the hokages 1-4 are among the most powerful ninjas ever existed. Bee may be fast, but i don't think he can blitz a ninja like the 1st. Mokuton would capture bee and make his bijuu useless.
I think harashima would win, but it would be soooooo much easier arguing for bee in later matches since we have seen more of him

[insid3rkill3r]

It would also be important to note that Hashimara didnt only 'control' Kyuubi because his wife sealed it within herself, Madara himself said;

That Hashimara had SEVERAL Bijuus under his control, and that he gave them away to balance the power of the villages, so what i get from that is that his ability really gave him control of the bijuus somehow, and since Yamato is able to supress Kyuubi's chakra i don't seee why it wouldnt work with Bee.

[MonsterEnvy]

if it were not for the fact that Hashirama can suppress Bijuu I would give this win to Bee but because he can I say Hashirama for the win

[xXan]

Considering the limited information and feats from the first i am going with Bee here.

[MonsterEnvy]

Considering the limited information and feats from the first i am going with Bee here.

Hashirama can suppress bijuu meaning the 8 tails will be a non factor here

[xXan]

Hashirama can suppress bijuu meaning the 8 tails will be a non factor here

He needs to first trap him with roots. Naruto was a mindless beast that was standing still there is no evidence the First can trap Bee in roots before he can charge at him in his lvl 2 version.. Even lvl 1 version was fast enough to decapitated Kisame before he could finish a damn jutsu (with Raikage help but he got to his head before the jutsu was cast).

Its not as easy as you think. The ability to suppress the biju its irrelevant if he can't incapacitate Bee for some time to do it. Also he can suppress and then Bee can summon it again as this is not sealing away the biju power.

Hell Bee would stomp the First in a sword fight. There is no way with the facts the first has to be able to keep up with Bee when Sasuke was not able to(distractions or not he got trowned back and then stabed by multyple swords). Also Bee has raiton chakra to put in his blade so they will cut right trough whatever daggers the first has.

[En Yang Ji]

The first has nothing that would block a bijuu bomb.

[bhasty]

He needs to first trap him with roots. Naruto was a mindless beast that was standing still there is no evidence the First can trap Bee in roots before he can charge at him in his lvl 2 version.. Even lvl 1 version was fast enough to decapitated Kisame before he could finish a damn jutsu (with Raikage help but he got to his head before the jutsu was cast).

Its not as easy as you think. The ability to suppress the biju its irrelevant if he can't incapacitate Bee for some time to do it. Also he can suppress and then Bee can summon it again as this is not sealing away the biju power.

Hell Bee would stomp the First in a sword fight. There is no way with the facts the first has to be able to keep up with Bee when Sasuke was not able to(distractions or not he got trowned back and then stabed by multyple swords). Also Bee has raiton chakra to put in his blade so they will cut right trough whatever daggers the first has.

No.. hashirama can change the battle ground into his own advantage.. He can make a forest in an instant.. Bee's lightning sword can cut of the roots/wood of hashirama's forest.. But the thing is, hashirama's wood/roots can attack bee in any angle at the same time.. The moment bee will be captured by hashirama's mokuton then its over for him..

If the hachibi's chakra will be suppress by hashirama's wood sealing technique then bee can't used the bijuu mode..

The moment hashirama can create his forest then it's over for bee.. Bee can't defeat hashirama even in his bijuu mode.. Bee was simply fighting the entire forest and hashirama at the same time.. Speed is useless inside in the forest.. You can't run and you can't hide cuz your oponent is the forest itself...

[xXan]

No.. hashirama can change the battle ground into his own advantage.. He can make a forest in an instant.. Bee's lightning sword can cut of the roots/wood of hashirama's forest.. But the thing is, hashirama's wood/roots can attack bee in any angle at the same time.. The moment bee will be captured by hashirama's mokuton then its over for him..

If the hachibi's chakra will be suppress by hashirama's wood sealing technique then bee can't used the bijuu mode..

The moment hashirama can create his forest then it's over for bee.. Bee can't defeat hashirama even in his bijuu mode.. Bee was simply fighting the entire forest and hashirama at the same time.. Speed is useless inside in the forest.. You can't run and you can't hide cuz your oponent is the forest itself...

Right... Like he was attacking Sarutobi at any moment when he had the forest right?

[benelori]

Yamato is nothing compared to hashirama.. Yamato's mokuton can even hold the kyubi's tail of naruto.. HE can even suppress the kyubi's chakra of naruto with his some kind of a wood sealing technique.. Maybe hashirama mokuton/wood sealing technique can suppress hachibi chakra with ease..

Bee's lightning sword can cut through hashirama's wood.. But the thing is, hashirama can create a forest and he can attack bee with his wood in any angle at the same time..

Hmmm....well I said this a few times already...I'm not doubting Shodai's ability to suppress the Bijuu, I'm doubting the ability of catching Bee in the first place...

From what we've seen, the Jinchuuriki needs to be immobilized in order to get his Bijuu suppressed...and Shodai won't deliver here...
And even if it's a whole forest, Bee's swordsstyle is basically omni-directional, so there's no doubt in my mind that he can deflect and attack at the same time

[ashher]

Hashirama wins this easy. Its a bad match up.

[benelori]

Hashirama wins this easy. Its a bad match up.

How so?Do you really think Hashirama will just somehow control Hachibi, like pooff? He will need to catch him first...

[xXan]

Hashirama wins this easy. Its a bad match up.

Can you elaborate on this?

[ashher]

With this many bizus under his control i don't think it'll be hard for hashirama to corner and catch 8t.

[tobeulp]

Not yet decided whom to vote but I am leaning more on Hashirama because this is the worst match up for a Jinchuuriki mainly because Hashirama is the one praise to be the one that can tame Tailed beast..
Speed blitz is the best way that Bee can do to win this but Hashirama is not a fooder that can be speed blitz like any other ninja.. Hashirama must had great reflex maybe on Madara's level so Bee can't Speed blitz him IMO... Bee can't use Taijutsu here IMO mainly because there are a ton of ways Hashirama can trap Bee if it is a Taijutsu/Close range fight..
Well I hope many will vote on Bee because I think he had greater chance to win this tournament rather than Hashirama..

[xXan]

With this many bizus under his control i don't think it'll be hard for hashirama to corner and catch 8t.

I am sure you can show us how exacly he was able to catch those right? If not i can state the aliens decended from the sky and captured them and delivered them to Hashirama. On a more serious note he had a damn village backing him up. Who is to say he whent there alone and captured them?

You can only use events and things that you can prove how they happened.
Also Biju =/= jinjuriki .. It was stated even in the manga. Bee can use complex tactics but Biju's can't. Biju's with no jin are mostly savage animals.


Not yet decided whom to vote but I am leaning more on Hashirama because this is the worst match up for a Jinchuuriki mainly because Hashirama is the one praise to be the one that can tame Tailed beast..
Speed blitz is the best way that Bee can do to win this but Hashirama is not a fooder that can be speed blitz like any other ninja.. Hashirama must had great reflex maybe on Madara's level so Bee can't Speed blitz him IMO... Bee can't use Taijutsu here IMO mainly because there are a ton of ways Hashirama can trap Bee if it is a Taijutsu/Close range fight..
Well I hope many will vote on Bee because I think he had greater chance to win this tournament rather than Hashirama..

Like he was able to cach Sarutobi that whent in a taijutsu/weapon fight with him right (and not only him but another Kage to, at the same time). Sarutobi was able to defend himself vs the 2 kages in total darkness but Bee can't do it vs one of them under normal circumstances? Come on.

[tobeulp]

@xXan
This fight is different because Hashirama will just focus on Catching Bee rather than Engaging with techniques or Taijutsu... And Sarutobi had the most proper intel on both Hokage that is why he can manage to do what he had done... Bee didn't had the proper intel on the first so I think you get my point...

[ashher]

xXan i think you didn't get my point. I wasn't talking about how hashirama controlled the bizus. I said hashirama would use bizus under his control against B, to corner and then capture.

[xXan]

@xXan
This fight is different because Hashirama will just focus on Catching Bee rather than Engaging with techniques or Taijutsu... And Sarutobi had the most proper intel on both Hokage that is why he can manage to do what he had done... Bee didn't had the proper intel on the first so I think you get my point...

Irrelevant. If Hashirama could have captured Sarutobi with his rots and then kill him then he would have done it but Sarutobi engaged the both of them in close combat and had no problem to fight with them. Its not like Hashirama tryied to do something and then Sarutobi dodged it(the jutsu) because he knew them ...

Also capturing Bee as you state its harder than what Hashirama was doing vs Sarutobi. Hashirama need to keep chaneling the jutsu so Bee will be free to charge him in lvl 2 cloack.

Up to now that forest has close to no feats. Who exacly where they able to stop? Was he on Bee's level that can decapitate you before you cast a jutsu?


xXan i think you didn't get my point. I wasn't talking about how hashirama controlled the bizus. I said hashirama would use bizus under his control against B, to corner and then capture.

So Hashirama has ALL the Biju's he had with him in this fight? How is he summoning them? Are they actualy mind controled or just kept sealed? What are the bijus he had? In his fight with Madara (in the one panel that we have of it) it was Hashirama alone vs Madara vs Kyuubi.

[tobeulp]

@ashher
Not an option here on him having the bijuu here I guess...
Nobody will against Hashirama if this is the case... ^^
[hr]
@xXan
You can't judge the fight against Sarutobi mainly because Sarutobi had the proper intel on how the First fights and techniques so I think Sarutobi had a huge advantage with it... Do bee know how Hashirama fight do he had the proper intel I guess not so all I guess it is irrelevant to make a comparison on the fight with Sarutobi..

[xXan]

@ashher
Not an option here on him having the bijuu here I guess...
Nobody will against Hashirama if this is the case... ^^
<hr noshade size="1">
@xXan
You can't judge the fight against Sarutobi mainly because Sarutobi had the proper intel on how the First fights and techniques so I think Sarutobi had a huge advantage with it... Do bee know how Hashirama fight do he had the proper intel I guess not so all I guess it is irrelevant to make a comparison on the fight with Sarutobi..


I told you its was a normal fight, its not like any of them used a jutsu and then Sarutobi dodged it because he knew it.

You think that if Hashirama could have captured Sarutobi he would not have done it? But he never even atempted it. Bee has way better speed feats then Sarutobi so Hashirama who has no feats in capturing even someone slower its not going to just root him in place. Knowing how they fight its all good and usefull but it was never showed that Sarutobi dodged whatever because he knew it was coming.

[ashher]

So we are to ignore the manga fact that hashirama had all bizus under his control?and xXan, what's the point of your irrelevant questions?hashirama was one of the 4 ppl who had full control over bizus, and what bizu hashirama had?manga fact:all of them. B is also a member of the same quartet. If he is allowed to use his bizu, so should be hashirama.
[hr]
@tobeulp well then hashirama is winner of the tournament. Though i think there may be some who in fact can win against hashirama with bizuus.

[Kazu-Sama]

Well I hope many will vote on Bee because I think he had greater chance to win this tournament rather than Hashirama..

Don't vote for people based on how they'd fair in later matches. Vote for this match. It's a battle between these 2 people. The rest of the tournament is irrelevant.

Otherwise people who are hoplessly outmatched'll still win. It's like saying Sakura should beat Kisame because if they then go on to fight Sasori, Sakura'll be more likely to win.

Okay, Rant over

[ashher]

^agreed. In fact i think this tournament is gonna be ultimately about popularity.

[xXan]

So we are to ignore the manga fact that hashirama had all bizus under his control?and xXan, what's the point of your irrelevant questions?hashirama was one of the 4 ppl who had full control over bizus, and what bizu hashirama had?manga fact:all of them. B is also a member of the same quartet. If he is allowed to use his bizu, so should be hashirama.
<hr noshade size="1">
@tobeulp well then hashirama is winner of the tournament. Though i think there may be some who in fact can win against hashirama with bizuus.


Show me this manga fact where it is stated that he had all of them.

[tobeulp]

I told you its was a normal fight, its not like any of them used a jutsu and then Sarutobi dodged it because he knew it.

You think that if Hashirama could have captured Sarutobi he would not have done it? But he never even atempted it. Bee has way better speed feats then Sarutobi so Hashirama who has no feats in capturing even someone slower its not going to just root him in place. Knowing how they fight its all good and usefull but it was never showed that Sarutobi dodged whatever because he knew it was coming.

You think capturing Sarutobi whom we all is not a Jinchuriki will help Hashirama? Like I said it is diferent because Sarutobi isn't a Jinchuriki while Bee is... So Hashirama will adjust to his fighting style when fighting bee...
Like what I said proper intel on an enemy is much greater advantage than anything... If Raikage didn't had intel on MS skills he will probably toast by now... If Konan didn't had the intel on Madara's tangible body she will probably didn't even make Madara break a sweat... And I think anyone can be captured by the 1st Hokage even Raikage if they didn't had intel on what the 1st can do...
[hr]

Don't vote for people based on how they'd fair in later matches. Vote for this match. It's a battle between these 2 people. The rest of the tournament is irrelevant.

Otherwise people who are hoplessly outmatched'll still win. It's like saying Sakura should beat Kisame because if they then go on to fight Sasori, Sakura'll be more likely to win.

Okay, Rant over

Like what i said from my previous post I didn't vote yet and leaning on the 1st and stated more cases on him winning rather than bee but I am thinking far ahead in this tournament ^^ so I am still not casting my vote..

[xXan]

You think capturing Sarutobi whom we all is not a Jinchuriki will help Hashirama? Like I said it is diferent because Sarutobi isn't a Jinchuriki while Bee is... So Hashirama will adjust to his fighting style when fighting bee...
Like what I said proper intel on an enemy is much greater advantage than anything... If Raikage didn't had intel on MS skills he will probably toast by now... If Konan didn't had the intel on Madara's tangible body she will probably didn't even make Madara break a sweat... And I think anyone can be captured by the 1st Hokage even Raikage if they didn't had intel on what the 1st can do...

1 Hashirama summoned a entire forest to trap Sarutobi and failed and then he never even tryied again. Capturing him with his forest he could crush him or hold him still so he can decapitate him.
2-Information is important but in there close combat fight the information Sarutobi had never played any part. Not only that BUT the Kages had the same info on Sarutobi and they where 2 on 1.

[ashher]

Sorry xXan on my mobile. Can't do what you want right now. But may be you can check and tell us what exactly was said about hashirama and bizuus.

[tobeulp]

1 Hashirama summoned a entire forest to trap Sarutobi and failed and then he never even tryied again. Capturing him with his forest he could crush him or hold him still so he can decapitate him.
2-Information is important but in there close combat fight the information Sarutobi had never played any part. Not only that BUT the Kages had the same info on Sarutobi and they where 2 on 1.

1. Hashirama is not dumb to summon a forest to make bee hide on it he can just trap him where he stand(Not saying Bee is dumb to just stand there) or lure him so he can trap him rather than wasting a lot of chakra just trying to save the eco system :p...
2. Close combat example... Bee stabs him with lighting enhance blade - Hashirama make his body to a wood element like Yamato do then surround Bee with wood element... Game Over... The 1st and 2nd Hokage are long dead so the 3rd most probably had more on his arsenal than what the 1st and 2nd Hokage knew..
Hashirama will not fight like what he did against Sarutobi who isn't a Jinchuuriki because trapping Sarutobi that can just break the mukoton and will not do anything good on Hashirama... While on bee if Hashirama trap Bee with his mukoton it is game over..

[xXan]

Sorry xXan on my mobile. Can't do what you want right now. But may be you can check and tell us what exactly was said about hashirama and bizuus.

From what i remember it was stated that Hashirama had under control several beast. Not all of them. Anywhat this is not relevent as he gave them away and the only one he kept (the Kyuubi) is sealed inside his wife(at that time or in Naruto now). Also i am sure the mods are not accepting Hashirama using his biju's here. When i see one i am going to ask him.


1. Hashirama is not dumb to summon a forest to make bee hide on it he can just trap him where he stand(Not saying Bee is dumb to just stand there) or lure him so he can trap him rather than wasting a lot of chakra just trying to save the eco system :p...
2. Close combat example... Bee stabs him with lighting enhance blade - Hashirama make his body to a wood element like Yamato do then surround Bee with wood element... Game Over... The 1st and 2nd Hokage are long dead so the 3rd most probably had more on his arsenal than what the 1st and 2nd Hokage knew..
Hashirama will not fight like what he did against Sarutobi who isn't a Jinchuuriki because trapping Sarutobi that can just break the mukoton and will not do anything good on Hashirama... While on bee if Hashirama trap Bee with his mukoton it is game over..

Ok let me put it simple as i can see we are not getting nowheres. Show me Hashirama traping people with his roots so we can gauge if he can or can't trap Bee. if there is no such proof then its irrelevant. Also Bee geting close to Hashirama its GG. He can decapitate him before he can even make handseals. Full on charge like vs Kisame.

[tobeulp]

@xXan
Tell me aside from Sarutobi where do we see the 1st fight?
Kisame didn't had a Mukoton so irrelevant..
The problem is you just look on the fight on Sarutobi you didn't see the whole view on how a ninja will adjust to certain enemies.... And with Sarutobi whom had a huge advantage with the intel on the 1st it is pretty much irrelevant to say that Bee can copy what Sarutobi did and doge all the Mukoton techniques of Hashirama..
Well I am done because just you didn't see Hashirama trap anyone you don't think Hashirama can trap anyone at all..

[xXan]

@xXan
Tell me aside from Sarutobi where do we see the 1st fight?
Kisame didn't had a Mukoton so irrelevant..
The problem is you just look on the fight on Sarutobi you didn't see the whole view on how a ninja will adjust to certain enemies.... And with Sarutobi whom had a huge advantage with the intel on the 1st it is pretty much irrelevant to say that Bee can copy what Sarutobi did and doge all the Mukoton techniques of Hashirama..
Well I am done because just you didn't see Hashirama trap anyone you don't think Hashirama can trap anyone at all..

Yes the fact that he does not have feats makes whatever he can do with the roots irrelevant:

Torunament rules:


Because the plot is moving forward and certain characters are being developed, they can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for the few characters that have been given a limit. Take a look at the spoiler below.

You need pic or text. You are asuming he can do it when he never showed to be able to trap anyone and this is the irrelevant part. I keep using the Sarutobi thing as that its the only instance we have AND keep in mind that was a 2vs1 fight AND those 2 also had info on Sarutobi so whatever info Sarutobi its completly irrelevant.

How this works? You first need to prove that X can do Y and then X can do Y.

[ashher]

Alright its several then. So he can't use them in this fight is that what you are saying? Well then may be it'll be a closer match. Still hashirama wins.
[hr]
Though i fully expect B to take the poll by storm. He is the new star of the show after all.

[DarkPrinceRevan]

didnt the first hokage also use the necklace naruto had to help with the bjuu suppression

[tobeulp]

@xXan
Well not going to look for page where Yamato had trap Madara or more Ninja that is shown in the Manga.. If Yamato can trap them I don't see why Hashirama can replicate that feat...
What I am trying to say is Sarutobi had the intel on what the 1st Hokage can do so he can prepare for his Mukoton trapping while Bee didn't so I can say the 1st Hokage could trap Bee because he didn't had intel on it and what can it do and being fast isn't gonna help on the Mukoton trapping IMO..
Well to be fair we didn't see Bee fair against a Mukoton user so I guess he can't land a hit on a Mukuton user ^^...

[xXan]

Alright its several then. So he can't use them in this fight is that what you are saying? Well then may be it'll be a closer match. Still hashirama wins.
<hr noshade size="1">
Though i fully expect B to take the poll by storm. He is the new star of the show after all.

Well i got no idea what Hashirama the mods are using(from what time). The one just before he died (not the edo). If that is so then yes he does not have the bijus. But i am sure the mobs are not going to allow the bijus to be used.

Also lots of peeps that like the First. I belive this is going to be somewhat close. The people i see go with. Hashirama can control beasts=he stomps.


didnt the first hokage also use the necklace naruto had to help with the bjuu suppression

Not that was something only Yamato needed.


@xXan
Well not going to look for page where Yamato had trap Madara or more Ninja that is shown in the Manga.. If Yamato can trap them I don't see why Hashirama can replicate that feat...
What I am trying to say is Sarutobi had the intel on what the 1st Hokage can do so he can prepare for his Mukoton trapping while Bee didn't so I can say the 1st Hokage could trap Bee because he didn't had intel on it and what can it do and being fast isn't gonna help on the Mukoton trapping IMO..
Well to be fair we didn't see Bee fair against a Mukoton user so I guess he can't land a hit on a Mukuton user ^^...

Well i do know where Yamato captured Madara in roots but that its irrelevant. Madara was there to talk. He could have escaped it any time he wanted to(and had at the end).
Again if you whant to prove something you need to show evidence like in manga pages. If you don't whant to look for them as it is to much of a bother then don't debate as if you are not presenting evidence its meaningless.

Now the last part of you post makes no sense at all... For Bee to not be able to land a hit on a Mukuton user the individual would have to show a defence that can counter what Bee can do. Like in panels, pages, scans, link to the manga.

[jorped]

I think that this fight is just not right :crying ! We know almost nothing about Hashirama that makes this combat at least for me very subjective! I think that Hashirama would win this and the reason why i say this is because Hashirama was the strongest shinobi of his time and his bloodline makes him incredible awesome and strong !
To get to know more about his powers i think that we shouldn't use Yamato on this , cuz Yamato for me always seemed like he is nowhere close to the strength with that Kekkei Genkai as we all expected that would make him ! I think that Hashirama powers are far greater than Yamato's and that he can turn mokuton in a very deadly weapon and at the same time an awesome defence !
For what i know that he was able to accomplish i think that the winner is going to be him , although i think that Bee could put a good fight to him!
I am just going to give Hashirama as the winner cuz i would expect him to win this but i don't really have any kinda of clue of how he would defeat him !

Hashirama wins !!! But i still will not vote for now , i want to see more opinions :tem

[tobeulp]

didnt the first hokage also use the necklace naruto had to help with the bjuu suppression

IIRC it is the 1st Hokage's suppression for Bijuu technique that is sealed there.. And the 1st didn't need the necklace now because he can do it himself..

[THM Nindo]

Giving that Mokuton has a special effects on Bijuu and Jinchuriki, Shodai would have a big advantage when fighting against Bee.
And as much as I like Bee, I have difficulty seeing Shodai lose after all his hype.

It's unfortunate that we have no real depiction of what he can do.
Still, I guess I have no choice to go with him.

PS: Those fights are so hard to decide!!!

[tobeulp]

Well i do know where Yamato captured Madara in roots but that its irrelevant. Madara was there to talk. He could have escaped it any time he wanted to(and had at the end).
Again if you whant to prove something you need to show evidence like in manga pages. If you don't whant to look for them as it is to much of a bother then don't debate as if you are not presenting evidence its meaningless.

Now the last part of you post makes no sense at all... For Bee to not be able to land a hit on a Mukuton user the individual would have to show a defence that can counter what Bee can do. Like in panels, pages, scans, link to the manga.

The thing is he still manage to trap even though Madara is willing to be trap and if it is Bee he should be long be suppress with his Jinchuuriki powers if it manage to get a hold of him...
Here is your evidence of trap.. Even it is Yamato and the 1st Hokage is by far much better if you ask me..
http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-11/naruto/chapter-296.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-12/naruto/chapter-296.html

Well you can't really rely on this mainly because Yamato and the 1st Hokage's Mukoton skills are like heaven and earth IMO...

Well that is a pun because you say because if the 1st Hokage didn't manage to trap Sarutobi then he will certainly not trap Bee IIRC...

[xXan]

The thing is he still manage to trap even though Madara is willing to be trap and if it is Bee he should be long be suppress with his Jinchuuriki powers if it manage to get a hold of him...
Here is your evidence of trap.. Even it is Yamato and the 1st Hokage is by far much better if you ask me..
http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-11/naruto/chapter-296.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-12/naruto/chapter-296.html

Well you can't really rely on this mainly because Yamato and the 1st Hokage's Mukoton skills are like heaven and earth IMO...

Well that is a pun because you say because if the 1st Hokage didn't manage to trap Sarutobi then he will certainly not trap Bee IIRC...

You call that evidence? Kyuubi is just sitting there and focusing on Sakura.

The second one its Kabuto trying to help Sakura and not fight. He never even tryied to not get hit.

Both examples are of stationary objects.
Nobody is saying he can wrap wood around its target.... But do it in battle situations where the target has Bee like speed (or close to).

Also Madara could have used intangibility and not get hit at ALL. He just let it happen because it was ok with him.

This 'traping" was never done vs a opponent that fights back and its using hight speed.

[tobeulp]

An evidence of trapping is still an evidence even with a fight is ongoing or not.. And like what I said Yamato's skills compare to Hashirama are like Heaven and Earth..
Well I don't know why you think Bee is that great to be able to get past all the Trapping Hashirama might do maybe if had proper intel he can most likely dodge it but this isn't the case...
But here is the thing why I don't think Bee can't dodge this...
1. Mukoton skills are most likely one of the best techniques to trap a Ninja close/range a like...
2. Bee didn't have a clue on what Hashirama can do and what his Mukoton can do..
3. All other Ninja in this tier can most probably be caught by Hashirama Mukoton but they most likely just over power it to get free but in Bee's or Jinchuuriki's case he will be trap and be suppress of his Bijuu powers..
4. Bee didn't have the sharingan or a reflex like Raikage to avoid or know when a technique will come...
5. Being Hashirama had the big advantage being he just need to caught Bee in a mukoton then it is over.. This is just like Tobi just need to use his hand to caught anyone here then it is Game Over.. But Hashirama had better odds than using his hand but short/long range he can do this...

[xXan]

An evidence of trapping is still an evidence even with a fight is ongoing or not.. And like what I said Yamato's skills compare to Hashirama are like Heaven and Earth..
Well I don't know why you think Bee is that great to be able to get past all the Trapping Hashirama might do maybe if had proper intel he can most likely dodge it but this isn't the case...
But here is the thing why I don't think Bee can't dodge this...
1. Mukoton skills are most likely one of the best techniques to trap a Ninja close/range a like...
2. Bee didn't have a clue on what Hashirama can do and what his Mukoton can do..
3. All other Ninja in this tier can most probably be caught by Hashirama Mukoton but they most likely just over power it to get free but in Bee's or Jinchuuriki's case he will be trap and be suppress of his Bijuu powers..
4. Bee didn't have the sharingan or a reflex like Raikage to avoid or know when a technique will come...
5. Being Hashirama had the big advantage being he just need to caught Bee in a mukoton then it is over.. This is just like Tobi just need to use his hand to caught anyone here then it is Game Over.. But Hashirama had better odds than using his hand but short/long range he can do this...

So if i can hit with a rock a stationary fighet jet or a moving one its the same thing right? Where is the logic in this?

1-asumtions with no proof.
2-he knows what Mukoton can do and what it is (tournament rules).
3-there is no evidence of this. For this to be true you need to prove that he can do that.
4-He does not need to.
5-Defenetly not. In Naruto's case Yamato needed time to seal the biju and in that time Bee can cut lose with his chakra blades ro trow a raiton infused pen at Hasiarama. Also Bee can fight vs Hashirama with his swords skill alone...

[MonsterEnvy]

ok i have been convinced that bee can win he gets my vote

[tobeulp]

So if i can hit with a rock a stationary fighet jet or a moving one its the same thing right? Where is the logic in this?

1-asumtions with no proof.
2-he knows what Mukoton can do and what it is (tournament rules).
3-there is no evidence of this. For this to be true you need to prove that he can do that.
4-He does not need to.
5-Defenetly not. In Naruto's case Yamato needed time to seal the biju and in that time Bee can cut lose with his chakra blades. Also Bee can fight vs Hashirama with his swords skill alone...

I could also say this
1. No proof that he can't
2. So he knew that it had suppresing Jinchuuriki I think not...
3. No proof that they can dodge it also..
4. He need it to stay alive :p
5. Comparing Yamato who need necklace to suppress a Jinchuuriki whom Hashirama who didn't need it is like comparing Konohamaru can do a better Rasengan than Naruto...
Well I can agree you on Bee should just fight Hashirama with his swords skills alone but with that only I don't think he can win...

[xXan]

I could also say this
1. No proof that he can't
2. So he knew that it had suppresing Jinchuuriki I think not...
3. No proof that they can dodge it also..
4. He need it to stay alive :p
5. Comparing Yamato who need necklace to suppress a Jinchuuriki whom Hashirama who didn't need it is like comparing Konohamaru can do a better Rasengan than Naruto...
Well I can agree you on Bee should just fight Hashirama with his swords skills alone but with that only I don't think he can win...

1-Huh? There is no proof that Itachi can't sneeze the planet to bits... Do you have scans of him not doing this(sneezing and the planet not blowing up)? This is realy bad reasoning you just made. You don't need to prove he can't... You need to prove that he CAN.
2-I don't get it?
3-The proof is the fact that he never showed to be able to do it. What is the best speed that Mokuton was able to stop? You can go from here.
4-Bee was able to move and react faster then someone could complete a jutsu and decapitate him, Bee was also faster and Sasuke could only keep up with him using his sharingan and the fact that Bee was attaking with a huge linear attack. So if SASUKE with Sharingan can barely keep up with him...
5-There is no proof that Hashirama can seal faster then Yamato+necklace. There is a good chanse he can but ... proof?

[jorped]

I think that putting Hashirama on this tournament was a big mistake ! I voted for him but now i think i shouldn't had do that ! It would be better if Bee moves forward and not Hashirama ! Hashirama is going to put the fights very weird and with nothing more than "guesses" cuz what we know of him is almost nothing

[xXan]

I think that putting Hashirama on this tournament was a big mistake ! I voted for him but now i think i shouldn't had do that ! It would be better if Bee moves forward and not Hashirama ! Hashirama is going to put the fights very weird and with nothing more than "guesses" cuz what we know of him is almost anything

And considering the Tournament rules state:


5. Characters
Because the plot is moving forward and certain characters are being developed, they can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for the few characters that have been given a limit. Take a look at the spoiler below.

its going to be interesting to see how people are going to asume stuff and not brake the rulles:P

[jorped]

:fail i actually meant nothing instead of anything :oh

[tobeulp]

1-Huh? There is no proof that Itachi can't sneeze the planet to bits... Do you have scans of him not doing this(sneezing and the planet not blowing up)? This is realy bad reasoning you just made. You don't need to prove he can't... You need to prove that he CAN.
2-I don't get it?
3-The proof is the fact that he never showed to be able to do it. What is the best speed that Mokuton was able to stop? You can go from here.
4-Bee was able to move and react faster then someone could complete a jutsu and decapitate him, Bee was also faster and Sasuke could only keep up with him using his sharingan and the fact that Bee was attaking with a huge linear attack. So if SASUKE with Sharingan can barely keep up with him...
5-There is no proof that Hashirama can seal faster then Yamato+necklace. There is a good chanse he can but ... proof?

1. What I don't get you here? Mukoton can trap a Ninja range or close range a like... Do Fire Affinity can? Do Lightning Affinity can? Do Wind Affinity can? Well Water/Earth can but I think Mukoton is better and shown that it is one of the best to trap without resorting to Shadow binding or Mind Jutsu..
2. The rules just state Mukoton Skills but it didn't say that all Ninja in this tier knew the suppressing capability for Jinchuriki of Mukoton of Hashirama..
3. Proof is he fought someone who knew all his techniques and skills that is why he look lame even Kakashi can replicate this feat if he knew all of the techniques and skills of the 1st Hokage...
4. Being fast is not an option here but the speed you can react to a technique..
5. This is I would like to laugh do you think even without evidence Yamato is on par with Hashirama in terms of Jinchuuriki suppressing :p.. If you think this way then there is no reasons to reply to you if you think Yamato is on par with Hashirama...

@all
I would love to see Bee win this but with a huge handicap just by being bind will make him lose.. I can't see with this level of opponents that beaten a Prime Madara can't even land a single trap Mokuton on Bee...

[juUnior]

Actually I'm voting for Bee - overall Hashirama's hype is sometimes disturbing for me :p Also:

This taming of Bijuus is a tricky business in my opinion...Yamato needed to seal Naruto's movements in order to get him on that chakra leash, to tame Kyuubi etc...
Yeah, I do believe that when ppl are referring to Hashirama being able to tame the bijuus is just a reference to his raw power of his mokuton abilities to make bijuu do nothing - forcing them to obey or sth like that, sth different to that what, for example, Madara/Tobi can do with his Sharingan <in this case its also forcing, but in such a subtle way :p> Like physical vs psychical methods respectively.

Also, Bee is a jinchuuriki, not to say perfect jinchuuriki. He has counter for genjutsu <or at least he have counter for genjutsu of Hashirama - if he was able to counter Sharingan genjutsu, than any other is just a piece of cake, imo>, he has raw power to counter - probably - raw power of mokuton of Hashirama, and he is a fast character with pretty nice body to do some heavy physical damage. Not to mention transformation version 2, compressed bijuu power in human form. Nah, I just go with Bee probably because I don't like Hashirama being in the tournament: he is a character who will always shine in a "hype" way in the eyes of the fans, and he should always be put in some top10 strongest fighters in the "0" <zero> place ^^

[kakashidad]

About Hashirama's Bijuu taming methods, to be honest I doubt that would work on a Jinchuuriki. For starters Hachibi is on Bee's side, and secondly Bee has perfect control over his beast. Like we saw when Hachibi came out to explain the risks of Rikudou Mode to Naruto (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/519/9), Bee is the person fighting in Hachibi's form, Hachibi is still inside chilling in his dark hangout. So essentially Hashirama's Bijuu taming methods will be useless as he can't tame a human being but only Bijuu (or wild Bijuu).

With his Bijuu control useless, it comes down to pure force vs force. Basically we have to judge if Hashirama's wood can hold Bee down when he's in full Hachibi mode. Judging by this panel (http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-12/naruto/chapter-399.html) we know that Hashirama can produce massive amounts of wood (also seen vs Hiruzen), so it's not unlikely that he can hold Bee down with his wood if he captures him.

I think Bee's safest bet would be to not go into full Hachibi mode, but only use version 1 and 2. It will make him a speed monster and a much smaller target = harder to catch. It's also likely that Bee can use his swords while in version 1 or base form enhanced with lightning chakra to break out or destroy Hashirama's wood techniques (http://www.mangareader.net/93-314-10/naruto/chapter-309.html) like seen with Sasuke vs Yamato.

Another hard fight, honestly I don't think this is easy at all for Hashirama. I actually think Bee is a formidable opponent for him. His genjutsu is useless too so that's another minus for Hashirama.

I think it's silly if you presume that harashirma could not seal a ''person/shinobi'' and yet could seal the kyuubi...To me the shodaine making and using seals are a given.Every other shot.We've seen him in.Has him with his scroll been unleashed...take what the manga depicts,when he's seen against madara...No one gonna tell me that bee is quicker than what an EMS madara would of been?

Either way,there are countless combo harashirma could employ whilst bee is figuring out just what happened...Pitch black genjutsu for starter.
Any of his wood element attacks would be available..Bee would be looking to utilize.This speed...what speed is that again? :p

[coolerthanzerok]

I think it's close, and more importantly I want Hashirama out of this tournament. I think Bee's chakra flow is an acceptable counter to being bound with Mukoton. After that I suspect him using version 2 to crash in and bush Hashirama's face.

[benelori]

I think it's silly if you presume that harashirma could not seal a ''person/shinobi'' and yet could seal the kyuubi...To me the shodaine making and using seals are a given.Every other shot.We've seen him in.Has him with his scroll been unleashed...take what the manga depicts,when he's seen against madara...No one gonna tell me that bee is quicker than what an EMS madara would of been?

Either way,there are countless combo harashirma could employ whilst bee is figuring out just what happened...Pitch black genjutsu for starter.
Any of his wood element attacks would be avaiable..Bee would be looking to utilize.This speed...what speed is that again? :p

Bee's genjutsu counter is actually top notch...we've seen that...
The speed...are you saying that EMS madara is actually really fast or anything...is Madara fast? EMS has nothing to do with speed or at least we don't know that...
The speed everybody is talking about is the speed of a Jinchuuriki...we know that Bee blitzed Kisame a few times, and we know from Naruto that Jinchuuriki are just fast...so that is the speed...not even mentioning the power, which comes with such a speed...

[Truballa11]

Ok Bee was going to lose to sasuke with help from sasuke's friends if he hadn't fake his own capture. Madara is stronger than Sasuke. Madara lost to the 1st. Bee loses because if Madara was a beast and his successor almost won then I give it to the first.

[kakashidad]

He needs to first trap him with roots. Naruto was a mindless beast that was standing still there is no evidence the First can trap Bee in roots before he can charge at him in his lvl 2 version.. Even lvl 1 version was fast enough to decapitated Kisame before he could finish a damn jutsu (with Raikage help but he got to his head before the jutsu was cast).

Its not as easy as you think. The ability to suppress the biju its irrelevant if he can't incapacitate Bee for some time to do it. Also he can suppress and then Bee can summon it again as this is not sealing away the biju power.

Hell Bee would stomp the First in a sword fight. There is no way with the facts the first has to be able to keep up with Bee when Sasuke was not able to(distractions or not he got trowned back and then stabed by multyple swords). Also Bee has raiton chakra to put in his blade so they will cut right trough whatever daggers the first has.

There's no evidence that hararshirma can do what again?The manga specifically tells us that the shodaine hokage.Processed all of the byuui's and distributed them.To the other 4 villiages.In order to install peace.

It lunancy to claim that he could not ''seal'' or trap any byuui's regardless of how many tails it has.

As for his ''swordplay'' no one can ''truely'' claim.That bee would ''stomp'' him.Here we can see an array of swords for harashirma leisure...

Naruto-Manga-001

The match up are woah...and i think that it'c clear that bee will show more of what he's about.In upcoming issues.But as for now.I don't by any stretch of the imagination,belief that bee is anyway near his class.He may have ''hokage'' level power...think about that a minute.

(the level is ''kage'')Bee i'm afraid is not kage material.His brother is,And if i'm right.Kages are denoted/chosen by ''who's the strongest in that particular villiage.As well as with the leaf at least.Who has the right ideology!.

This is a HARASHIRMA WIN.:o
[hr]

Bee's genjutsu counter is actually top notch...we've seen that...
The speed...are you saying that EMS madara is actually really fast or anything...is Madara fast? EMS has nothing to do with speed or at least we don't know that...
The speed everybody is talking about is the speed of a Jinchuuriki...we know that Bee blitzed Kisame a few times, and we know from Naruto that Jinchuuriki are just fast...so that is the speed...not even mentioning the power, which comes with such a speed...

Bene i'm talking about the speed of his eye reaction and therefore the speed in which madara would be able to counter Harashirma.Bees genjutsu counter...i don't really recall one tbh,either way the genjutsu we've seen the first dopple blah blah ;)use was one that placed the surrounding in total darkness..hence countering any speed bee would have or could achieve imo.The only other shinobi who had a genjutsu of simular degree.Is ''Shi'' brillant light one...(i forget the actually name.but the one employed against sasuke and his troop.:D

I'll borrow a line from naruto...your looking down on the first ability and TACTIC...that's never any good imo...:tem

[Murdock]

I thing people tend to overlook is that even if Hashirama were able to control Bee and I don't agree with that (see Benelori's posts) that is not only thing Bee can use - he is urber strong without bijuu just look how he swept the floor with Sasuke. Also Hashirama is overrated as is Hiruzen but that is for another discussion IMO. Also battle with Madara wasn't that much of a fair fight given the fact that Madara let Hashirama win to some degree. So his whole bijuu controling ability can't be taken seriously if you state Kyuubi example. I said many times speed wins - Bee has superior speed, strenght even without bijuu, has elemental advantage, is immune to genjutsu, and even without using Hachibi he is still well rounded shinobi.

[Raizen]

Considering harashima can grow a whole damn forest pretty easily, I don't think catching bee is going to be a problem. Bee mostly moves in a straight line. It is also arguable whether bee can break mokuton easily or not considering it is coming from the 1st himself.

[huynhlan]

also don't forget the 1st can use shadow clone, will there is a really good evidence that he could, that fact that he wrote down the tech. in his scroll, and it show the method of using it that even naruto can learn, which indicate the 1st can use it too, for it will be stupid if a ninja of his power can write down how to use a certain tech. but can't use it himself.

Also yamato was consider by orochimaru as a fail experiment didn't he, that said alot about yamato's power compare to the 1st.

[xXan]

@tobeulp

I am not going to keep debating with you as you can't understand the basics of debating and you are also not accepting the Tournament rules. The caracters can only do what they showed to be able to do. Asuming the First can seal faster then Yamato with that necklace thing its irrelevant(so its the fact that he can trap or whatever faster then him) as its a asumiton (it would make sense but its a asumtion).
No feats = he can't do it.


@ kakashidad


There's no evidence that hararshirma can do what again?The manga specifically tells us that the shodaine hokage.Processed all of the byuui's and distributed them.To the other 4 villiages.In order to install peace.

Wow this nonsence again... Link me the evidence. Show me where it was stated that he had ALL of them...


It lunancy to claim that he could not ''seal'' or trap any byuui's regardless of how many tails it has.

Prove it to me, show me where the First used his tree thing to capture someone with Bee's speed. As for the seal i never stated he can't seal them... But the fact that he can't grab Bee with roots and then seal the biju before Bee can cut the roots apart with lighting edge swords.


As for his ''swordplay'' no one can ''truely'' claim.That bee would ''stomp'' him.Here we can see an array of swords for harashirma leisure...

So having swords = you are a master of them? Show me him using them.


The match up are woah...and i think that it'c clear that bee will show more of what he's about.In upcoming issues.But as for now.I don't by any stretch of the imagination,belief that bee is anyway near his class.He may have ''hokage'' level power...think about that a minute.

Yeah right Bee its not on the same class the as the guy with almost no feats. Try again as this makes no sense.


(the level is ''kage'')Bee i'm afraid is not kage material.His brother is,And if i'm right.Kages are denoted/chosen by ''who's the strongest in that particular villiage.As well as with the leaf at least.Who has the right ideology!.

A title means crep. The elders where ready to chose Kakashi as Hokage when Naruto was 100 times better then him in a fight. This is irrelevant.

@huynhlan

Considering the first never used clones he can't do it here. He can only do the things he showed in the manga.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Madara controlled the Kyuubi, and the first still won.

So, either Hashirama's control over Jinchuriki overruled Madara's, or his mokuton has enough strength to hold Kyuubi while fighting Madara, which means dealing with Amaterasu.

If Hashirama can override perfect Jinchuriki control, Bee can't use Hachibi.

If Mokuton's strength is superior to Kyuubi's, then it's superior to the Hachibi's.

Also, since Hashirama dealt with Amaterasu, then he can deal with Bee's speed.

Hashirama wins this.

[3c]

Even if Hashirama catches Bee (which he would need to do to start the Bijuu suppression, this is assuming it even works and Bee's total control won't cancel out Hashirama's attempt) Bee has a really simple counter to being incapacitated. He can just instantly increase in size into the full Bijuu mode and quickly revert back = he's free. That the fight is over once Bee is caught is nonsense. Quickly transforming into the Hachibi would break any wood holding him down, and then he can just transform back to version 1/2 to become a tiny and quick target.

Facts:

Bee is super fast. Hashirama is probably very/super fast too but even so Bee's tremendous speed should pose real trouble for Hashirama.
Bee has incredible strength and power packed in every blow when using version 1 and 2.
There's no evidence that Hashirama can control Bijuus without first doing what Yamato did to Naruto, which is incapacitate his target and then begin a suppression process. Meaning Hashirama would need to catch Bee which would be really hard, and his control would even need to outrank Bee's own control. Both are defined as "Bijuu controllers".
Lightning slashes through wood like it was nothing. For reference see Sasuke's easy escape from Yamato's "prison". Bee would hack through Hashirama's wood.
Bee is immune to genjutsu.
Bee can use large Bijuudamas. I'd like to see a forest block Hashirama from all harm... Seriously, Hashirama isn't unbeatable.

[xXan]

Madara controlled the Kyuubi, and the first still won.

So, either Hashirama's control over Jinchuriki overruled Madara's, or his mokuton has enough strength to hold Kyuubi while fighting Madara, which means dealing with Amaterasu.

If Hashirama can override perfect Jinchuriki control, Bee can't use Hachibi.

If Mokuton's strength is superior to Kyuubi's, then it's superior to the Hachibi's.

Also, since Hashiram dealt with Amaterasu, then he can deal with Bee's speed.

Hashirama wins this.

We don't know what happened back then. Madara could have faked it and we also know his wife helped him(she sealed the kyuubi inside of herself). We don't even know if Madara had Amaterasu... People stop asuming stuff.

@3c

Thx for taking the time to make that post ...

[hakuthehedgehog]

We don't know what happened back then. Madara could have faked it and we also know his wife helped him.

Madara lost by own admission, and Hashirama battled with Madara more than once after he had the MS, so he can deal with amaterasu, which means he can deal with Bee's speed.

Also, Hashirama had to deal with the Kyuubi somehow, even if temporarily, so that his wife sealed it inside, and the Hachibi is much weaker than the Kyuubi, so I have no doubt Hashirama's mokuton can deal with the Hachibi's strength.

Regarding Hachibi's bijuudama: Suigetsu blocked it with water, I'm pretty sure Hashirama could do it with a forest.


Madara definitly had amaterasu, since he admitted to have Susano'o as well, and I doubt he could've faked the entire fight since Hashirama had kicked his ass plenty of times already.

[3c]

Madara controlled the Kyuubi, and the first still won.

So, either Hashirama's control over Jinchuriki overruled Madara's, or his mokuton has enough strength to hold Kyuubi while fighting Madara, which means dealing with Amaterasu.

If Hashirama can override perfect Jinchuriki control, Bee can't use Hachibi.

If Mokuton's strength is superior to Kyuubi's, then it's superior to the Hachibi's.

Also, since Hashirama dealt with Amaterasu, then he can deal with Bee's speed.

Hashirama wins this.

When was it ever said that Madara possessed Amaterasu? When was it said that Hashirama took control from Madara? The fact is that we know nothing about that fight except:

1) Madara started with Kyuubi on his side.
2) Hashirama was not alone, Mito was present (fighting or not) and at some point the Kyuubi was sealed into her. For all we know Mito dealt with Kyuubi
3) We only know Madara was "really strong", NO details about his fighting style or power.

Not to mention that Madara/Tobi basically even said that he "lost on purpose".

[Raizen]

Even if Hashirama catches Bee (which he would need to do to start the Bijuu suppression, this is assuming it even works and Bee's total control won't cancel out Hashirama's attempt) Bee has a really simple counter to being incapacitated. He can just instantly increase in size into the full Bijuu mode and quickly revert back = he's free. That the fight is over once Bee is caught is nonsense. Quickly transforming into the Hachibi would break any wood holding him down, and then he can just transform back to version 1/2 to become a tiny and quick target.

Facts:

Bee is super fast. Hashirama is probably very/super fast too but even so Bee's tremendous speed should pose real trouble for Hashirama.
Bee has incredible strength and power packed in every blow when using version 1 and 2.
There's no evidence that Hashirama can control Bijuus without first doing what Yamato did to Naruto, which is incapacitate his target and then begin a suppression process. Meaning Hashirama would need to catch Bee which would be really hard, and his control would even need to outrank Bee's own control. Both are defined as "Bijuu controllers".
Lightning slashes through wood like it was nothing. For reference see Sasuke's easy escape from Yamato's "prison". Bee would hack through Hashirama's wood.
Bee is immune to genjutsu.
Bee can use large Bijuudamas. I'd like to see a forest block Hashirama from all harm... Seriously, Hashirama isn't unbeatable.

I think it takes quite a lot of power to transform into full bijuu. So transforming then reverting is pretty taxing. I would even argue that once caught, i would think the power of hachibi is suppressed, so bee can't have access to it to transform.

Bee is indeed fast, but I don't think a fighter like harashima, who dealt with the power of the predicting EMS would have much trouble with it. Bee also moves in a straight line which makes it easier for mokuton to catch him

Again, it is debatable how easily bee could break mokuton. remember that not even the 9tails and its incredible strength could break mokuton. Mokuton is also the structure of the leaf itself

I think the comparison of "control" between the 1st and bee is misinterpreted. Bee can CONTROL/USE the bijuu power. But the 1st can supress it and seal it away. So if mokuton gets bee, he no longer has access to hachibi's powers

Yamato is stated to be nothing compared to the 1st

A bijuudama requires bee to go into full mode. Which makes hima bigger target for mokuton. Once mokuton is applied, it is debabtable whether he can even form a bijuudama.

No one is saying the 1st is unbeatable. But the guy is among the best ninjas ever existed. His own powers being the perfect counter for a bijuu doesn't help either.

[hakuthehedgehog]

We saw Hashirama fighting against the Madara and the Kyuubi, plus , even if Madara didn't have amaterasu, he had to deal with 2o ther MS techs including TS, which isn't a small feat.

[3c]

I think it takes quite a lot of power to transform into full bijuu. So transforming then reverting is pretty taxing. I would even argue that once caught, i would think the power of hachibi is suppressed, so bee can't have access to it to transform.

Bee is indeed fast, but I don't think a fighter like harashima, who dealt with the power of the predicting EMS would have much trouble with it. Bee also moves in a straight line which makes it easier for mokuton to catch him

Again, it is debatable how easily bee could break mokuton. remember that not even the 9tails and its incredible strength could break mokuton. Mokuton is also the structure of the leaf itself

I think the comparison of "control" between the 1st and bee is misinterpreted. Bee can CONTROL/USE the bijuu power. But the 1st can supress it and seal it away. So if mokuton gets bee, he no longer has access to hachibi's powers

Yamato is stated to be nothing compared to the 1st

A bijuudama requires bee to go into full mode. Which makes hima bigger target for mokuton. Once mokuton is applied, it is debabtable whether he can even form a bijuudama.

No one is saying the 1st is unbeatable. But the guy is among the best ninjas ever existed. His own powers being the perfect counter for a bijuu doesn't help either.

Hachibi's power is only suppressed (if it works) when the suppressing ritual is being done, not just from being caught in mokuton in itself. I agree that it would be taxing to go in and out of full Bijuu mode, but it's probably something Bee can do at least one or two times in worst case scenario.

Again not much is known about Madara nor his EMS. I have no doubt that Madara was a speed beast (and still is), but if he fought with for example Susano'o then it might have been a rather stationary fight and not a fight of physical speedblitzing.

Actually Naruto in his version 2 using 4 tails broke Yamato's mokuton (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-14/naruto/chapter-296.html). Yamato was just quick enough with starting the suppression ritual (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-15/naruto/chapter-296.html) while Naruto Kyuubi was still standing there like a moron. Bee when using 8 tails is definitely more powerful than Naruto using 4 even if his Bijuu is "inferior". However Hashirama could use more wood so it's a tough situation to judge.

You could be right about the interpretation of their respective control. Little is known about Hashirama's way of controlling Bijuu.

I doubt Bee would need to go into full mode to perform Bijuudama. Naruto could do so both in his 4 and 6-tailed state.

[xXan]

Hachibi's power is only suppressed (if it works) when the suppressing ritual is being done, not just from being caught in mokuton in itself. I agree that it would be taxing to go in and out of full Bijuu mode, but it's probably something Bee can do at least one or two times in worst case scenario.

Again not much is known about Madara nor his EMS. I have no doubt that Madara was a speed beast (and still is), but if he fought with for example Susano'o then it might have been a rather stationary fight and not a fight of physical speedblitzing.

Actually Naruto in his version 2 using 4 tails broke Yamato's mokuton (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-14/naruto/chapter-296.html). Yamato was just quick enough with starting the suppression ritual (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-15/naruto/chapter-296.html) while Naruto Kyuubi was still standing there like a moron. Bee when using 8 tails is definitely more powerful than Naruto using 4 even if his Bijuu is "inferior". However Hashirama could use more wood so it's a tough situation to judge.

You could be right about the interpretation of their respective control. Little is known about Hashirama's way of controlling Bijuu.

I doubt Bee would need to go into full mode to perform Bijuudama. Naruto could do so both in his 4 and 6-tailed state.

I belive he made a bijuball when running with Naruto at the shield team?

[Raizen]

Hachibi's power is only suppressed (if it works) when the suppressing ritual is being done, not just from being caught in mokuton in itself. I agree that it would be taxing to go in and out of full Bijuu mode, but it's probably something Bee can do at least one or two times in worst case scenario.

Again not much is known about Madara nor his EMS. I have no doubt that Madara was a speed beast (and still is), but if he fought with for example Susano'o then it might have been a rather stationary fight and not a fight of physical speedblitzing.

Actually Naruto in his version 2 using 4 tails broke Yamato's mokuton (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-14/naruto/chapter-296.html). Yamato was just quick enough with starting the suppression ritual (http://www.mangareader.net/93-301-15/naruto/chapter-296.html) while Naruto Kyuubi was still standing there like a moron. Bee when using 8 tails is definitely more powerful than Naruto using 4 even if his Bijuu is "inferior". However Hashirama could use more wood so it's a tough situation to judge.

You could be right about the interpretation of their respective control. Little is known about Hashirama's way of controlling Bijuu.

I doubt Bee would need to go into full mode to perform Bijuudama. Naruto could do so both in his 4 and 6-tailed state.
So are we assuming that the 1st has to use a ritual to suppress the bijuu or is just being caught in mokuton itself? I always thought mokuton had special properties and the only reason yamato needed to use a ritual was because his mokuton is not as strong as the 1st.

If we are assuming madara can use susanoo, wouldn't it be safe to say he can use amaretsu as well? I always thought that those 3 were the general attacks for ALL those who gain MS. But once you get EMS, then you get your own unique technique. That was how itachi described it.

But madara has shown to be pretty speed. Add that with EMS and it would be difficult to attack him. Yet the first not only kept up but beat madara.

Naruto may have broken YAMATO'S mokuton in 4TK, but teh 9TK couldn't break mokuton from harashima. SO it is clear that his mokuton is much more powerful.

When naruto went partial mode with 4 tails and 6 tails, he was still pretty big, thus leaving him susceptible to mokuton

[3c]

So are we assuming that the 1st has to use a ritual to suppress the bijuu or is just being caught in mokuton itself? I always thought mokuton had special properties and the only reason yamato needed to use a ritual was because his mokuton is not as strong as the 1st.

If we are assuming madara can use susanoo, wouldn't it be safe to say he can use amaretsu as well? I always thought that those 3 were the general attacks for ALL those who gain MS. But once you get EMS, then you get your own unique technique. That was how itachi described it.

But madara has shown to be pretty speed. Add that with EMS and it would be difficult to attack him. Yet the first not only kept up but beat madara.

Naruto may have broken YAMATO'S mokuton in 4TK, but teh 9TK couldn't break mokuton from harashima. SO it is clear that his mokuton is much more powerful.

When naruto went partial mode with 4 tails and 6 tails, he was still pretty big, thus leaving him susceptible to mokuton

Since we have no clue how else Hashirama controlled/suppressed Bijuu, then yes I assume that he needed to do what Yamato did. Yamato only said he needed the necklace because he was inferior to Hashirama, which means that Hashirama could suppress even without it.

I'm not assuming anything, I threw Susano'o out as one scenario. Madara could have easily had 3 other unique powers just like Kakashi's MS technique is different than Sasuke and Itachi's techniques.

An impressive feat indeed. But again we know little about the battle unfortunately... We don't know to what extent Mito helped Hashirama, and we don't know how Kyuubi was dealt with except it eventually ending up sealed in Mito due to her sealing powers.

Again there's no evidence for the full Kyuubi not being able to break Hashirama's mokuton. All we saw was one panel of Hashirama using massive amounts of wood while Kyuubi was untouched. We have no clue if Hashirama incapacitated Kyuubi, if Kyuubi was able to break loose several times or what happened at all.

Naruto was still small when using 4 and 6 tails. He was only shrouded in the Kyuubi's chakra. He was no bigger than normal before he grew the 8th tail and became large so the size doesn't seem to matter. I highly doubt Bee's not able to use Bijuudama in version 2, the guy has perfect control of Hachibi's powers in every sense of the word 'perfect'.

[huynhlan]

@xXan
the manga did show envidence that the 1st can use shadow clone, the fact that it was in his scroll is the perfect envidence, and the fact that it was written in a way that even naruto who suck at clone jutsu can master it, so it's really hard to believe that the 1st can't follow what he wrote and learn the tech. And another thing in hashirama's fight with the third, his will was supress that why he seem so weak, and the amount of tech. he can use is being control by orochimaru. Also if we are realling using that fight and claim that it was the best he can do, then that mean only one thing, that hiruzen near death was stronger than harashima at his best which also mean hiruzen is the strongest ever, but we all know that it not the case, maybe when he was younger but not in that fight.

@3c
you miss the point of control that was pointed out. It was said that yagura was a perfect jin. like bee, that why he was on the list of name, which mean he is basically like bee, he is friend with his biju, only those can be call perfect jin, naruto right now still can't be call a perfect jin. yet he was still being control by madara, but from what we know so far in the manga, harashima's control was stronger than madara, and it another thing it was never pointed out in the manga that madara can only control kuybi for a short while, which mean he could have control it indefinitely, yet the 1st still manage to took over control of the kuybi, which indicate his control was better, and that all we can use right now, because right now we know that A>B and B>C, and there have not been any indication that C>A, so all we can said is A>C.



Also I am not sure if harashima is the kind of guy to bring his wife to a duel, if he did, I don't think madara would respect him that much, maybe I could be wrong, I guess only a flashback to the battle will finally convince me.

[benelori]

@xXan
the manga did show envidence that the 1st can use shadow clone, the fact that it was in his scroll is the perfect envidence, and the fact that it was written in a way that even naruto who suck at clone jutsu can master it, so it's really hard to believe that the 1st can't follow what he wrote and learn the tech. And another thing in hashirama's fight with the third, his will was supress that why he seem so weak, and the amount of tech. he can use is being control by orochimaru. Also if we are realling using that fight and claim that it was the best he can do, then that mean only one thing, that hiruzen near death was stronger than harashima at his best which also mean hiruzen is the strongest ever, but we all know that it not the case, maybe when he was younger but not in that fight.

@3c
you miss the point of control that was pointed out. It was said that yagura was a perfect jin. like bee, that why he was on the list of name, which mean he is basically like bee, he is friend with his biju, only those can be call perfect jin, naruto right now still can't be call a perfect jin. yet he was still being control by madara, but from what we know so far in the manga, harashima's control was stronger than madara, and it another thing it was never pointed out in the manga that madara can only control kuybi for a short while, which mean he could have control it indefinitely, yet the 1st still manage to took over control of the kuybi, which indicate his control was better, and that all we can use right now, because right now we know that A>B and B>C, and there have not been any indication that C>A, so all we can said is A>C.



Also I am not sure if harashima is the kind of guy to bring his wife to a duel, if he did, I don't think madara would respect him that much, maybe I could be wrong, I guess only a flashback to the battle will finally convince me.

But those are different types of control...maybe the jinchuuriki control of Hashirama is stronger than Madara's, who knows, but Madara wasn't controlling the Bijuu in Yagura, he was controlling Yagura...that aside...

Hashirama took control from Madara...that's debatable, since Madara said he fought to get some cells from Shodai in order to grow his plant...
The control over Bijuus, was never a question, Shodai must've been a beast at this, however he still needs to catch Bee, and this is where I think Hashirama's defeat lies

[huynhlan]

But those are different types of control...maybe the jinchuuriki control of Hashirama is stronger than Madara's, who knows, but Madara wasn't controlling the Bijuu in Yagura, he was controlling Yagura...that aside...

Hashirama took control from Madara...that's debatable, since Madara said he fought to get some cells from Shodai in order to grow his plant...
The control over Bijuus, was never a question, Shodai must've been a beast at this, however he still needs to catch Bee, and this is where I think Hashirama's defeat lies

Uh wait isn't controlling yagura mean he have to control the biju too, because like bee show, genjutsu don't work on perfect jin.
And another thing so you think if madara could have won that battle, he wouldn't try, instead he decide to fake losing to get a cell, which he could still do have he kill harashima, and decided to wait for like 40 years? Man madara must be retarded or something.

[benelori]

Uh wait isn't controlling yagura mean he have to control the biju too, because like bee show, genjutsu don't work on perfect jin.
And another thing so you think if madara could have won that battle, he wouldn't try, instead he decide to fake losing to get a cell, which he could still do have he kill harashima, and decided to wait for like 40 years? Man madara must be retarded or something.

Haha...yup:tem...many people are suspecting this...I think he is just a genius who is not understood...maybe after he will die, people will come to really appreciate what he was:lmao...

About Yagura...yup...I think that Madara was controlling just him and not the Bijuu...we don't know the extent of the cooperation between the two of them, maybe Madara even entered and disrupted it by sealing it or something...he can do that...
The genjutsu that Bee dispelled was a genjutsu that restricted movement, so the Bijuu automatically inserted its own chakra...but in Yagura's case, maybe he didn't even know he was being controlled...
But all this is too vague, and for me doesn't really matter, because I've never denied Shodai's control capabilities...just the process that he needs to get the control...which means pure fighting...and this is where Bee might excel thanks to his Bijuu...

[huynhlan]

But fighting a guy who can make a forest in an instant and control how the branches move is really hard , especially if those tree have special power in supressing biju power.

[benelori]

But fighting a guy who can make a forest in an instant and control how the branches move is really hard , especially if those tree have special power in supressing biju power.

The forest itself doesn't really have suppressing power...and Bee can just cut through it...he has 7 swords infused with lightning, and if that's not enough he has version 2 which can pack enough power...we saw Naruto's version 2 in 4 tails version...and that was huge...
Speed and power is not something Hashirama can deal with...at least not on Jinchuuriki level IMO

[Delbi]

This is the man who fought Madara and the Kyuubi and supposedly "won" the fight.

He can litereally spawn a forest in seconds to block any powerful attack Bee throws at him. Not to mention, he can fully surpress Bee's Biju chakra and make him rely on his own strength, something Bee really hasn't had to do all that much thus far.

IMO, there is a big difference between controlling a Biju like Madara does with the Kyuubi and surpressing a Biju's chakra like Hashirama does. If Bee can't use the Hachibi's charka there is little he will be able to do to kill the strongest Senju ever.

[huynhlan]

the forest is basically the 1st mokuton jutsu, it's has his chackra through it, and we know that his mokuton have the power to suppress biju power so bee going ver.2 is not going to do him much good, the sword might, but he is up against a forect that attack him from all direction, even the ground he stand one, dude that just crazy, there is no way bee can fight something like that once his most powerful form is seal, and the fact that the first can make tree pop out where ever he want not on people of course make it more difficult to fight him.

[benelori]

the forest is basically the 1st mokuton jutsu, it's has his chackra through it, and we know that his mokuton have the power to suppress biju power so bee going ver.2 is not going to do him much good, the sword might, but he is up against a forect that attack him from all direction, even the ground he stand one, dude that just crazy, there is no way bee can fight something like that once his most powerful form is seal, and the fact that the first can make tree pop out where ever he want not on people of course make it more difficult to fight him.

Yup...that is a very good argument, and actually I think it's the only good one I heard, because I don't think the Jinchuuriki control is relevant here...and this is the point where we can agree to disagree, because U say that Bee will be blocked by trees and I say he won't...

[HaouLelouch]

Gonna go for killer bee due to the lack of feats on hashirama's part and his edo tensei wasn't very impressive. Madara also hinted he lost on purpose.

[huynhlan]

Yup...that is a very good argument, and actually I think it's the only good one I heard, because I don't think the Jinchuuriki control is relevant here...and this is the point where we can agree to disagree, because U say that Bee will be blocked by trees and I say he won't...

Ok image this, if bee is trap in a forest of tree, yeah he can defend at the branches that are coming at him that are visible, but the fact it, he is standing on soil, and while he is focusing on cutting the branches that come at him, he might not notice some that are grabbing on his foot, and when he doesn't it will be too late.

[benelori]

Ok image this, if bee is trap in a forest of tree, yeah he can defend at the branches that are coming at him that are visible, but the fact it, he is standing on soil, and while he is focusing on cutting the branches that come at him, he might not notice some that are grabbing on his foot, and when he doesn't it will be too late.

Well I think a Jinchuuriki in version 2, in this case the second strongest of all, with perfect control and all that can cut himself loose of some branches, even if they are from Shodai...

[huynhlan]

Well I think a Jinchuuriki in version 2, in this case the second strongest of all, with perfect control and all that can cut himself loose of some branches, even if they are from Shodai...

dude you are repeating the same argument agian, don't forget that those branches are moukton, they can supress bee's biju power so version two is not going to help him here.


The only way that bee can beat the 1st is if they were to fight at a place that tree can't grow, like in a desert or at a metal compound building.

[benelori]

dude you are repeating the same argument agian, don't forget that those branches are moukton, they can supress bee's biju power so version two is not going to help him here.

I know I do...that's why I said in the previous post, that we arrived to a deadlock...those branches are mokuton, but not all mokuton jutsu suppress bijuu chakra...
Also...I'm saying this one last time...do I think that Shodai can catch Bee and apply specific suppressing ninjutsu(like those branches that grab the Jinchuuriki)?...no I don't...Bee is too fast...

[Delbi]

Well I think a Jinchuuriki in version 2, in this case the second strongest of all, with perfect control and all that can cut himself loose of some branches, even if they are from Shodai...

Bee can't go Version 2 if Moukton is supressing the Biju's chakra. If that is the case all Bee has are electrified swords to cut through an enitre forest that is going to try and impale and crush him relentlessly.

[benelori]

Bee can't go Version 2 if Moukton is supressing the Biju's chakra. If that is the case all Bee has are electrified swords to cut through an enitre forest that is going to try and impale and crush him relentlessly.

My point is that Hashirama will not reach the point to suppress any chakra...because he won't be able to catch Bee...
Let's assume Hashirama just summons and entire forest in front of Bee, and then tries to catch him somehow to suppress his chakra...if Bee goes in with version 2, then he will have the speed and power to obliterate the trees, before anything can catch him...he can do smaller Bijuu Balls to destroy everything...
We know what Naruto did with the forest when he entered...same here

[Delbi]

I know I do...that's why I said in the previous post, that we arrived to a deadlock...those branches are mokuton, but not all mokuton jutsu suppress bijuu chakra...
Also...I'm saying this one last time...do I think that Shodai can catch Bee and apply specific suppressing ninjutsu(like those branches that grab the Jinchuuriki)?...no I don't...Bee is too fast...

All he needs to do is slow him down with regular Moukton then he can preform the seal to surpress the chakra. Bee is fast but he isn't fast enough where he can escape an entire forest being created around him. He'd then have no where to go, and Hashirama would literally control the entire landscape around him.

[huynhlan]

My point is that Hashirama will not reach the point to suppress any chakra...because he won't be able to catch Bee...
Let's assume Hashirama just summons and entire forest in front of Bee, and then tries to catch him somehow to suppress his chakra...if Bee goes in with version 2, then he will have the speed and power to obliterate the trees, before anything can catch him...he can do smaller Bijuu Balls to destroy everything...
We know what Naruto did with the forest when he entered...same here

I don't know, harashima's tree are probably strong enough to catch bee in version two, because he would need to use it to supress other biju and control them, so if the tree are strong enough to restrict big ass biju, then I don't think bee in version 2 have much of a chance, he might be running straight into the tree thinking he can break it, but as he tackle it, he find out it supressing his power and it's really strong too.

[Delbi]

My point is that Hashirama will not reach the point to suppress any chakra...because he won't be able to catch Bee...
Let's assume Hashirama just summons and entire forest in front of Bee, and then tries to catch him somehow to suppress his chakra...if Bee goes in with version 2, then he will have the speed and power to obliterate the trees, before anything can catch him...he can do smaller Bijuu Balls to destroy everything...
We know what Naruto did with the forest when he entered...same here

The Kyuubi is much more powerful than Hachibi, and a normal forest in the middle of nowhere isn't as strong as the wood of Moukton. Normal wood doesn't equal ninjutsu wood. Yamato even showed us he could create stronger forms of Moukton and he's nothing but a cheap copy compared to Hashirama.

[benelori]

All he needs to do is slow him down with regular Moukton then he can preform the seal to surpress the chakra. Bee is fast but he isn't fast enough where he can escape an entire forest being created around him. He'd then have no where to go, and Hashirama would literally control the entire landscape around him.

The answer to such circumstance would be tactical retreat or just destroy the forest...I mean he does have the firepower to destroy it...Bijuudama is not child's play, and if it's aimed towards Shodai that can really put Shodai out from his comfy situation
[hr]

The Kyuubi is much more powerful than Hachibi, and a normal forest in the middle of nowhere isn't as strong as the wood of Moukton. Normal wood doesn't equal ninjutsu wood. Yamato even showed us he could create stronger forms of Moukton and he's nothing but a cheap copy compared to Hashirama.

That's true, but Kyuubi only showed 4tails, and Bee can go up to 8...I won't enter the tail number/power debate here, but we know that Bee can perfomr Bijuudama, or he can use lightning element, or just jump around in quick succession and get out from the forest

[huynhlan]

The answer to such circumstance would be tactical retreat or just destroy the forest...I mean he does have the firepower to destroy it...Bijuudama is not child's play, and if it's aimed towards Shodai that can really put Shodai out from his comfy situation

It won't work the bijudama I mean, think about it, the 1st can do what pain did as naruto prepare to fire the thing, in fact the 1st can do it better, for bee will need to charge the ball, but the 1st can pop tree anywhere, imagine as he charges, a tree pop out and hit him in the jaw making him shot the bijudama in the sky, then the tree proceed to trap him supressing his power.

Or worst yet as he charges, a tree pop out from behind him, and perform a thousand year of pain, and supressing his power at the same time.

[benelori]

It won't work the bijudama I mean, think about it, the 1st can do what pain did as naruto prepare to fire the thing, in fact the 1st can do it better, for bee will need to charge the ball, but the 1st can pop tree anywhere, imagine as he charges, a tree pop out and hit him in the jaw making him shot the bijudama in the sky, then the tree proceed to trap him supressing his power.

Bee can actually charge up the Bijuu Ball while moving...he proved this in the previous chapter IIRC...but I'll check, cuz I'm not entirely sure

[huynhlan]

Bee can actually charge up the Bijuu Ball while moving...he proved this in the previous chapter IIRC...but I'll check, cuz I'm not entirely sure

No he shot that in his biju form, and it was never show him doing it while moving.

[benelori]

No he shot that in his biju form, and it was never show him doing it while moving.

I'm referring to the one shot in version 2....for me the panels suggest that it was shot while moving...
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/55064037/10

[jorped]

Even if Hashirama catches Bee (which he would need to do to start the Bijuu suppression, this is assuming it even works and Bee's total control won't cancel out Hashirama's attempt) Bee has a really simple counter to being incapacitated. He can just instantly increase in size into the full Bijuu mode and quickly revert back = he's free. That the fight is over once Bee is caught is nonsense. Quickly transforming into the Hachibi would break any wood holding him down, and then he can just transform back to version 1/2 to become a tiny and quick target.

Your arguments are pretty valid but based on the description given to us by Kishi through all this time about Hashirama we should never underestimate him ! He is at least on my eyes one of the most powerful shinobis that ever lived and that is even more noticeable when someone like "Tobi" says that he was the only man that he admired ! We should take those words and realize that Hashirama was someone truly admirable ! I don't remember when he said that but i find another page that proves a bit my point .


http://i17.mangareader.net/naruto/462/naruto-744931.jpg

I don't know quite how strong "Madara" was when those two fought but based on the info that Kishi gave to us he had incredible powers and for me what i always "understood" is that Madara was the second stronger shinobi of that time ! His powers were just something that i don't think that even nowadays much people , even "super elite shinobis" could even stand a chance against ! Remember that "Madara" controlled the 9 tails like it was nothing ! With what Kishi gave to us i cannot assume less from Madara than being almost "perfect" in everything that matters for a battle !
Speed && Strength && Chakra && Ninjutsus , he mastered this very probably to an "epic point"!

"Madara" is someone from the awesome Uchiha clan and because of that he possess the Sharingan ! We all know how terrifying the Sharingan can be , and "Madara" sharingan wasn't a common one , it was indeed a very special one, the most powerful ever !


Facts:
Bee is super fast. Hashirama is probably very/super fast too but even so Bee's tremendous speed should pose real trouble for Hashirama.

Hashirama fought against a Shinobi that possessed the most terrifying Sharingan possible and still Won ! Is it only me that thinks that "Madara" should have had an incredibly speed ? And don't forget what powers the sharingan give to the ones that possessed it ! If Hashirama was that slow , how would Madara had been defeating by him ? If Hashirama wasn't incredibly strong Madara's sharingan would had easily read his movements and Madara would find pretty easily the best way to end the fight !


Bee has incredible strength and power packed in every blow when using version 1 and 2.

And can't i say the same about The First Hokage? The most powerful shinobi of his time !? Of course in this case without this part "using version 1 and 2" :p


Lightning slashes through wood like it was nothing. For reference see Sasuke's easy escape from Yamato's "prison". Bee would hack through Hashirama's wood.

I don't quite think that we should use Yamato to get to a certain point cuz we can't even compare those two because of the huge gap between their skills ! And saying that Bee would hack through Hashirama's wood i think it's a bit to much ! For me the First Hokage shouldn't have had been allowed to enter in this competition because of the lack of information that we have about him , but for someone that defeated someone like Madara, that was even using the Kyuubi i think it is away to unrealistic to say that Hashirama's Mokuton powers would be easily "avoided" by Bee ! Hashirama was a master using the Mokuton , he could probably create huge forest in a matter of seconds and can easily change the shape of those three , so i am not seeing how Bee would avoid and escape easily to this incredible possible number of "attacks"
Also don't forget that Hashirama was from the Senju clan !!! That gives to him an incredible advantage !


Bee is immune to genjutsu.

I don't think that The First Hokage really depends on genjutsu ! Of course he might be an awesome genjutsu user , but i am quite sure that he didn't defeated Madara using it ! Madara's Sharingan was just to damm powerful to be tricked for any kinda of genjutsu and the winner was still Hashirama ,so i don't think that Hashirama can said to be weaker because of the fact that genjutsus wouldn't work on Bee !


Bee can use large Bijuudamas. I'd like to see a forest block Hashirama from all harm... Seriously, Hashirama isn't unbeatable.


I don't think that it wouldn't be that unlikely to see him blocking a Bijuudama ! Madara was using the the Kyuubi so it was likely that at some point he had to "fight" against that amazing power that the Bijuudama holds ! Although based on what we know from the First Hokage he could have sealed or "captured" the Kyuubi before that happens ! But that is something that we will never know.

I don't want to see Bee out of this tournament so soon, but putting him against someone like Hashirama is just way to much. :crying

[huynhlan]

I'm referring to the one shot in version 2....for me the panels suggest that it was shot while moving...
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/55064037/10

that;s the one that was shot in biju form, but it didn't exploded, and he ask naruto to push it to break through, he never shot another one in version 2.

[benelori]

that;s the one that was shot in biju form, but it didn't exploded, and he ask naruto to push it to break through, he never shot another one in version 2.

Yeah...I know that...so he shot that while moving, and we know that Bijuudama is really strong, so it's really enough for me to say that Bee won't be captured by Mokuton...assuming Hashirama can keep up with his speed and actually putting pressure on Bee, which is my initial thought and the one that won't really change
[hr]
I'm going to leave now, cya again later...nice talking to everyone
Good night!!
:bye

[huynhlan]

Yeah...I know that...so he shot that while moving, and we know that Bijuudama is really strong, so it's really enough for me to say that Bee won't be captured by Mokuton...assuming Hashirama can keep up with his speed and actually putting pressure on Bee, which is my initial thought and the one that won't really change
<hr noshade size="1">
I'm going to leave now, cya again later...nice talking to everyone
Good night!!
:bye

there were no indication that he move and shot that bomb, it could have been he got to the place, saw naruto and the barrier, then decide to turn biju mode and shot the bomb, there were no indication he did it while running, and the hachibi don't have leg you do know that right.

Anyway good night. see ya.

[mattiaildivino]

I believe Killer Bee is stronger than Hashirama,but in this fight hashirama would win because he can control,counter and nullify bijuus. this is all. hashirama is a very strong ninja,surely smarter than B and with more experience,he hadn't got the amount of chakra Bee has then to have been so strong he had to be something else.

[zerocooldx]

Bee is immune to genjutsu.


That is actually, in part, an inaccurate statement that i think has become fact in the eyes of some. Yes the full and prolonged affect of gen-jutsu will not work on Bee because of the Hachibi. But Sasuke clearly demonstrated that the initial gen-jutsu "punch" if you will, will not only work on Bee but it will have its full and intended affect. Sasuke's MS gen-jutsu when it "hit" Bee paralyzed him and brought him down like a ton of bricks. And i'm quite sure the prolonged affect of that gen-jutsu was meant to keep Bee paralyzed for a while so that he could be taken to Madara without fighting back. But that is where the Hachibi came into play, he broke Bee out of the prolonged affect of the gen-jutsu. However Bee ate the initial "punch" of Sasuke's gen-jutsu, and we all witnessed that first hand. So Hashirama could very easily use gen-jutsu against Bee to temporarily and for lack of a better term, "stun" him. Which would create an opening for Hashirama, to either defend or prepare a follow up attack. But the statement "Bee is immune to gen-jutsu" is in part a very false statement.

[mattiaildivino]

That is actually, in part, an inaccurate statement that i think has become fact in the eyes of some. Yes the full and prolonged affect of gen-jutsu will not work on Bee because of the Hachibi. But Sasuke clearly demonstrated that the initial gen-jutsu "punch" if you will, will not only work on Bee but it will have its full and intended affect. Sasuke's MS gen-jutsu when it "hit" Bee paralyzed him and brought him down like a ton of bricks. And i'm quite sure the prolonged affect of that gen-jutsu was meant to keep Bee paralyzed for a while so that he could be taken to Madara without fighting back. But that is where the Hachibi came into play, he broke Bee out of the prolonged affect of the gen-jutsu. However Bee ate the initial "punch" of Sasuke's gen-jutsu, and we all witnessed that first hand. So Hashirama could very easily use gen-jutsu against Bee to temporarily and for lack of a better term, "stun" him. Which would create an opening for Hashirama, to either defend or prepare a follow up attack. But the statement "Bee is immune to gen-jutsu" is in part a very false statement.

agreed. when sasuke fought danzo,tobi and danzo himself states that sasuke's illusions weren't at itachi's ones' level.in tsukuyomi itachi could manipolate the time,and as kakakshi told chiyo,against itachi "the comrade who release you from the illusion" doesn't work.against "weak" illusions B can escape(I know,I shouldn't call sasuke's illusions weak but it's what they are in front of itachi's one).

[Fayte]

If Madara lost to Hashirama, what chance in hell does Killer Bee have? He lost to Sasuke.

[bhasty]

And considering the Tournament rules state:



its going to be interesting to see how people are going to asume stuff and not brake the rulles:P

Assuming stuff..? The manga never shown anything on hashirama.. But the manga clearly stated that hashirama deafeated The full power of madara and the full power of kyubi.. Does bee and hachibi is far more powerful than madara with ems and kyubi.? I dont think so..

and lastly, our assumption is not really irrilevant.. We've seen that hashirama can create a forest.. And sometimes we've assuming stuff that hashirama can do much more better than yamato simply because yamato was just a cheap copy of hashirama.. We made our assumption simply because the manga never shown anything on hashirama..

And if we're going to based our arguments/proof in the manga just like stated in the rules then, (and the only info that the manga has been shown is that hashirama defeated madara with EMS and The full power of kyubi) hashirama win in this fight.. Bee is nowhere in the same level on madara and hachibi is weaker compared to kyubi.. Bee is nothing and can't do anything on hashirama.. Bee/hachibi can't win simply because the manga clearly stated that hashirama defeated madara and the kyubi..

So according to the manga, madara with EMS is much more stronger the Bee while kyubi is much more powerful than hachibi..

Hashirama > madara + kyubi >>> bee + hachibi.. Thats the manga fact.. nothing more, nothing less..
[hr]

The answer to such circumstance would be tactical retreat or just destroy the forest...I mean he does have the firepower to destroy it...Bijuudama is not child's play, and if it's aimed towards Shodai that can really put Shodai out from his comfy situation
<hr noshade size="1">..

I doubt bee can retreat in hashirama's forest nor he can destroy it.. Even though he has the bijuudama but still it's not enough to destroy all the forest/trees.. If he will going to blow up the forest/trees infront of him, the trees/roots from his back, from the ground, left side and the right side will going to attack him at the same time.. and even if the bijuudama aimed at hashirama, he can simply goes in the underground or in any trees in the forest, because he was the forest itself..


That's true, but Kyuubi only showed 4tails, and Bee can go up to 8...I won't enter the tail number/power debate here, but we know that Bee can perfomr Bijuudama, or he can use lightning element, or just jump around in quick succession and get out from the forest

NO.. hashirama already fought the full power of the kyubi.. so it's pretty obvious that the kyubi used his bijuudama on hashirama.. Hashirama even hold the kyubi with his mokuton while he was fighting with madara.. he was fighting them both at the same time.. so it's not hard for hashirama to kill/defeat the hachibi and bee..

Jumping to get out from the forest is a really a bad strategy for bee.. because hashirama's wood/roots will definitely attack him from any angle.. And hashirama can create a wood cage for bee in anyhwere he landed.. Not to mention that hashirama has some kind of a jutsu's in his arsenal..

[ceasar]

The answer to such circumstance would be tactical retreat or just destroy the forest...I mean he does have the firepower to destroy it...Bijuudama is not child's play, and if it's aimed towards Shodai that can really put Shodai out from his comfy situation
<hr noshade size="1">


That's true, but Kyuubi only showed 4tails, and Bee can go up to 8...I won't enter the tail number/power debate here, but we know that Bee can perfomr Bijuudama, or he can use lightning element, or just jump around in quick succession and get out from the forest

Based on your argument it seems you are assuming during the process of capturing bijuu and fighting the kyubi when it was with madara that during any of these times shodai never encountered this attack. The bijuudama in essence isn't a new technique it is something the higher bijuu's and or all bijuu's know bee states it takes the bijuu helping the jin in order for them to use it thats why naruto is struggling without the kyubi. It knows the balance so why wouldn't it have used the technique in a battle against the shodai and why wouldn't have any other bijuu used it.

If these bijuu when free and untamed were in the process of being captured cant we assume they would have used any technique to defeat their captor. I have no doubt the shodai has seen and countered a bijuudama how could he have at one point captured all the tailed beast and not have encountered one.

Also the mokuton jutsu is more than enough to take raiton attacks and speed attacks.

[Rikudou King]

You honestly can't compare Madara and Kirabi. We don't even know how Madara fought in battle. I mean, look at how different Sasuke and Itachi fight a battle. Madara could have easily been stationary for most of the fight. Not to mention the fact that Madara actually survived when he was supposedly "killed". And as stated before the Kyuubi is a moot issue considering not only was there a time limit on how long it would fight, but Hashirama had Mito there to remove it from the fight.

Anyway, we have seen several times that Mokuton itself doesn't do anything to the Bijuu cloak. It takes time to suppress the bijuu cloak. Kirabi would have more then enough time to break free before Hashirama could suppress the Hachibi cloak. If both the four tail Kyuubi (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-296/page014.html) and Sarutobi (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-120/page010.html) could break it, Then Kirabi shouldn't have any trouble doing likewise, especially with his impressive strength. Heck, Kabuto with his speed was able to avoid being grabbed (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-357/page006.html) and Kirabi is far faster then him. It wouldn't be hard for Kirabi to activate the Hachibi cloak and blitz Hashirama, especially since he can do it quite fast (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-471/page002.html). One tackle and Hashirama would be in serious trouble (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-413/page011.html). Even without the Hachibi cloak, Kirabi has more then enough to finish Hashirama off. His swordsmanship would be incredibly hard to counter, especially with it being powered by his lightning nature and speed. With his large chakra pool and durability, he can take whatever Hashirama dishes out and draw the fight out.

Of course, the biggest bonus for Kirabi is that while the abilities of Mokuton is well known, Hashirama wouldn't know he was a Jinchuuriki and thus wouldn't be prepared for the Hachibi aiding him.

[chilibun]

It seems like the biggest argument for Bee is that he would be too fast for Hashirama to catch. I think that is ridiculous considering the amount of wood Yamato can summon at one time.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-456-2/naruto/chapter-451.html
Hashirama can create a forest of trees that surround and attack Bee with piercing branches like the one he used against the 3rd.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-125-7/naruto/chapter-120.html
Its easy to dodge something coming at you from one angle. Its another thing when it surrounds you and attack in all directions.

[Rikudou King]

That still doesn't deal with the issue of speed. Since Kirabi is faster, he can move from the spot before Hashirama can fully wrap the wood around him.

[chilibun]

That still doesn't deal with the issue of speed. Since Kirabi is faster, he can move from the spot before Hashirama can fully wrap the wood around him.

It absolutely does. If the branches come from all directions, where is he going move. Hashirama is not going to summon one tree. He can summon a forest or attacking trees.

[ceasar]

You honestly can't compare Madara and Kirabi. We don't even know how Madara fought in battle. I mean, look at how different Sasuke and Itachi fight a battle. Madara could have easily been stationary for most of the fight. Not to mention the fact that Madara actually survived when he was supposedly "killed". And as stated before the Kyuubi is a moot issue considering not only was there a time limit on how long it would fight, but Hashirama had Mito there to remove it from the fight.

Anyway, we have seen several times that Mokuton itself doesn't do anything to the Bijuu cloak. It takes time to suppress the bijuu cloak. Kirabi would have more then enough time to break free before Hashirama could suppress the Hachibi cloak. If both the four tail Kyuubi (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-296/page014.html) and Sarutobi (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-120/page010.html) could break it, Then Kirabi shouldn't have any trouble doing likewise, especially with his impressive strength. Heck, Kabuto with his speed was able to avoid being grabbed (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-357/page006.html) and Kirabi is far faster then him. It wouldn't be hard for Kirabi to activate the Hachibi cloak and blitz Hashirama, especially since he can do it quite fast (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-471/page002.html). One tackle and Hashirama would be in serious trouble (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-413/page011.html). Even without the Hachibi cloak, Kirabi has more then enough to finish Hashirama off. His swordsmanship would be incredibly hard to counter, especially with it being powered by his lightning nature and speed. With his large chakra pool and durability, he can take whatever Hashirama dishes out and draw the fight out.

Of course, the biggest bonus for Kirabi is that while the abilities of Mokuton is well known, Hashirama wouldn't know he was a Jinchuuriki and thus wouldn't be prepared for the Hachibi aiding him.

The mokuton of yamato and the mokuton of hashirama are vastly different things. Also mito was used as a container for the kyubi it is unknown if she actively was engaged with it during that battle and what part she actively played but based on the powers of hashirama we can conclude he probably subdued the kyubi while she sealed it. Either way the kirabi is not as powerful as the kyubi and if hashirama defeated it and the kirabi then it can be done again. Initially bee would have the advantage with the fact hashirama doesn't know of his bijuu power but with the battle he would quickly find out. Also sarutobi used enma to break the mokuton enma is the king of monkeys and is almost unbreakable I wouldn't compare that to just some ordinary sword of bee's. Also yamato is a poor man's version of hashirama if you are going to use him as evidence you have to acknowledge that fact.

[Rikudou King]

It absolutely does. If the branches come from all directions, where is he going move. Hashirama is not going to summon one tree. He can summon a forest or attacking trees. Not really. With Kirabi being so fast, he would have moved from the spot before Hashirama could fully block his movement. A few sprouts coming out of the ground means nothing if Kirabi isn't surrounded by them any more. Even summoning a forest wouldn't mean that Kirabi can't move anywhere considering there's plenty of space between the trees (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-123/page015.html) for people to fight in. Kirabi's speed and the fact that there's space between the trees to move means that Hashirama would not have an easy time stopping Kirabi.



The mokuton of yamato and the mokuton of hashirama are vastly different things. Also mito was used as a container for the kyubi it is unknown if she actively was engaged with it during that battle and what part she actively played but based on the powers of hashirama we can conclude he probably subdued the kyubi while she sealed it. Either way the kirabi is not as powerful as the kyubi and if hashirama defeated it and the kirabi then it can be done again. Initially bee would have the advantage with the fact hashirama doesn't know of his bijuu power but with the battle he would quickly find out. Also sarutobi used enma to break the mokuton enma is the king of monkeys and is almost unbreakable I wouldn't compare that to just some ordinary sword of bee's. Also yamato is a poor man's version of hashirama if you are going to use him as evidence you have to acknowledge that fact. The only difference between Yamato and Hashirama's mokuton is the that Yamato's isn't normally alive. I'm pretty sure no comment has been made about Yamatio's mokuton being physically weaker. And Yamato's a pale copy of Hashirama because he's unable to actually suppress a Bijuu without help. Mito likely wouldn't have needed Hashirama to subdue the Kyuubi judging from what we saw of Kushina. Regardless, subduing isn't defeating. Subduing the Hachibi wouldn't prevent Kirabi from doing anything and once he's free, he can simply do it again. Kirabi's swords may be ordinary, but with his lightning nature the swords would be able to slice through the wood like butter.

[ceasar]

Not really. With Kirabi being so fast, he would have moved from the spot before Hashirama could fully block his movement. A few sprouts coming out of the ground means nothing if Kirabi isn't surrounded by them any more. Even summoning a forest wouldn't mean that Kirabi can't move anywhere considering there's plenty of space between the trees (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-123/page015.html) for people to fight in. Kirabi's speed and the fact that there's space between the trees to move means that Hashirama would not have an easy time stopping Kirabi.


The only difference between Yamato and Hashirama's mokuton is the that Yamato's isn't normally alive. I'm pretty sure no comment has been made about Yamatio's mokuton being
physically weaker. And Yamato's



pale copy of Hashirama because he's unable to actually suppress a Bijuu
without help. Mito likely wouldn't have needed Hashirama to subdue the
Kyuubi judging from what we saw of Kushina. Regardless, subduing isn't
defeating. Subduing the Hachibi wouldn't prevent Kirabi from doing
anything and once he's free, he can simply do it again. Kirabi's swords
may be ordinary, but with his lightning nature the swords would be able
to slice through the wood like butter.






However the difference the fact remains the mokuton of hashirama is greater than that of yamato. This difference in living trees and artificial is a great difference because the physical energy of the senju is what makes them so powerful. Hashirama can counter the lightning with suiton and defeat bee because of the fact bee would only be able to use his own chakra for sure. The kirabi would be negated by mokuton and then it would be a battle of affinities and hashirama would take it because of his use and his great ability with suiton and doton abilities.

[Murdock]

dude you are repeating the same argument agian, don't forget that those branches are moukton, they can supress bee's biju power so version two is not going to help him here.


The only way that bee can beat the 1st is if they were to fight at a place that tree can't grow, like in a desert or at a metal compound building.

you don't understand mokuton. It can grow anywhere. Also we have no proof that those branches itself have that ability we know that special ability does. Also from what we know and nobody mentioned. Tenzou didn't use mokuton he used it to capture Naruto. Then he used his DNA to supress bijuu.

IMO Shodais ability to control Bijuu are conntected to his DNA than his mokuton therefore Tenzou had to TOUCH naruto. I doubt that Shodai can supress bijuu just by touching bijuu with some branch


If Madara lost to Hashirama, what chance in hell does Killer Bee have? He lost to Sasuke.

He lost? He lost same was Madara lost to Hashirama. And who is alive and who is dead? Bee killed Sasuke two times but never lost.

[benelori]

IMO Shodais ability to control Bijuu are conntected to his DNA than his mokuton therefore Tenzou had to TOUCH naruto. I doubt that Shodai can supress bijuu just by touching bijuu with some branch

Not a simple branch that's true...but there is a special technique(which I assumed everyone was talking about), which summons these branches with fangs, and they need to grab the host, and then they can suppress the chakra...Tenzou used this tech, while Naruto was training with FRS
[hr]
However the truth is that Tenzou sat inside of a ritual like circle or something...I doubt Hashirama can just sit down and to his thing, while fighting...

[jdw]

you don't understand mokuton. It can grow anywhere. Also we have no proof that those branches itself have that ability we know that special ability does. Also from what we know and nobody mentioned. Tenzou didn't use mokuton he used it to capture Naruto. Then he used his DNA to supress bijuu.

IMO Shodais ability to control Bijuu are conntected to his DNA than his mokuton therefore Tenzou had to TOUCH naruto. I doubt that Shodai can supress bijuu just by touching bijuu with some branch



He lost? He lost same was Madara lost to Hashirama. And who is alive and who is dead? Bee killed Sasuke two times but never lost.

Who is alive now an who is dead now has nothing to do with it. As per the manga, Madara lost to Hashirama. The end.


Madara: I LOST
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2vhzplf.jpg

Just because Madara is taking a longer view (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+510+-+A+Forbidden+Technique&page=12&next=true) because he has made some gains after surviving means nothing. He lost the battle, and people thought he died. In the end, he will also lose the war.

[jorped]

That still doesn't deal with the issue of speed. Since Kirabi is faster, he can move from the spot before Hashirama can fully wrap the wood around him.


Hashirama fought against a Shinobi that possessed the most terrifying Sharingan possible and still Won ! Is it only me that thinks that "Madara" should have had an incredibly speed ? And don't forget the powers the sharingan give to the ones that possessed it ! If Hashirama was that slow , how would Madara had been defeating by him ? If Hashirama wasn't incredibly fast, Madara's sharingan would had easily read his movements and Madara would find pretty easily the best way to end the fight !

I don't quite think that we should use Yamato to get to a certain point cuz we can't even compare those two because of the huge gap between their skills ! And saying that Bee would hack through Hashirama's wood i think it's a bit to much ! For me the First Hokage shouldn't have had been allowed to enter in this competition because of the lack of information that we have about him , but for someone that defeated someone like Madara, that was even using the Kyuubi i think it is away to unrealistic to say that Hashirama's Mokuton powers would be easily "avoided" by Bee ! Hashirama was a master using the Mokuton , he could probably create huge forest in a matter of seconds and can easily change the shape of those three , so i am not seeing how Bee would avoid and escape easily to this incredible possible number of "attacks"
Also don't forget that Hashirama was from the Senju clan !!! That gives to him an incredible advantage !

I think that this might respond to your question ! And i don't think that we should underestimate Hashirama's Mokuton ! Yamato's Mokuton compared to Hashirama's is nothing more than a joke

[kakashidad]

@tobeulp

I am not going to keep debating with you as you can't understand the basics of debating and you are also not accepting the Tournament rules. The caracters can only do what they showed to be able to do. Asuming the First can seal faster then Yamato with that necklace thing its irrelevant(so its the fact that he can trap or whatever faster then him) as its a asumiton (it would make sense but its a asumtion).
No feats = he can't do it.


@ kakashidad



Wow this nonsence again... Link me the evidence. Show me where it was stated that he had ALL of them...



Prove it to me, show me where the First used his tree thing to capture someone with Bee's speed. As for the seal i never stated he can't seal them... But the fact that he can't grab Bee with roots and then seal the biju before Bee can cut the roots apart with lighting edge swords.



So having swords = you are a master of them? Show me him using them.



Yeah right Bee its not on the same class the as the guy with almost no feats. Try again as this makes no sense.



A title means crep. The elders where ready to chose Kakashi as Hokage when Naruto was 100 times better then him in a fight. This is irrelevant.

@huynhlan

Considering the first never used clones he can't do it here. He can only do the things he showed in the manga.

Hey, you just had a pop at someone for not following the rules yet your trying to ''bait''me.Look for your own links.I ain't here to serve you.

I will say this though.You have little concept in how to debate.You can't really sway me from MY views.just go ahead and believe what you feel.And live.Don't come at me again like that just ignore my post aight.:mad

http://www.mangareader.net/93-18116-3/naruto/chapter-458.html
[hr]
:p
The forest itself doesn't really have suppressing power...and Bee can just cut through it...he has 7 swords infused with lightning, and if that's not enough he has version 2 which can pack enough power...we saw Naruto's version 2 in 4 tails version...and that was huge...
Speed and power is not something Hashirama can deal with...at least not on Jinchuuriki level IMO

Benelori i think you and a few other are getting this twisted.The wood element albilty of the shodaine is unrivalled.And it's capable of more than just sealing.The shodaine himself was without a doubt a SUPREME tactian
and that's not speculation on my part but manga fact really.Madara has already recognized him to be his rival and the man he most hated and the man he LOST too.

These things are convientantly overlooked...imo because the match up was probably done with bias :p.Either way.All we can really do with what we have is speculate as to the outcome of this and every other match.As
that's what the remitt of this tournament is..to SPECULATE.Using what the manga provides within the confine of your rules(which i have trampled over once or twice,):p

If all this disscussion to to see who gets the upper had from the off.Then it would be extremely foolish imo to suggest that bee would go straight to byuui mode...no?But in the event that he did.All that form provides is additional chakra.And the will of fire dictates that a ninja should ENDURE it's not all about how many jutsus you process...I'll always go with the endurances and tactical abilities of whoever is put forth.Peace.:D

[tobeulp]

The fact that the 1st Hokage became a Hokage because of his power to control/subdue a Jinchuriki..
http://www.mangareader.net/93-302-9/naruto/chapter-297.html
The fact that this is the 1st Hokage expertise to deal with a Jinchuriki add that he defeated the famed prime Madara.

[benelori]

The fact that the 1st Hokage became a Hokage because of his power to control/subdue a Jinchuriki..
http://www.mangareader.net/93-302-9/naruto/chapter-297.html
The fact that this is the 1st Hokage expertise to deal with a Jinchuriki add that he defeated the famed prime Madara.

Expertise with Jinchuuriki? How so...when he fought against Madara and Kyuubi, Kyuubi was free...and JInchuuriki like Bee is really rare, in fact they were none like him in Shodai's age

[tobeulp]

@benelori
Just read the page and it is clearly state that his reputation as a Hokage because he can control Jinchuuriki...

[Bhoot]

Expertise with Jinchuuriki? How so...when he fought against Madara and Kyuubi, Kyuubi was free...and JInchuuriki like Bee is really rare, in fact they were none like him in Shodai's age

Remeber how Naruto was controlled with Wood Release ?? Remember how Harishima's DNA was used ?? Remember how it was only possible coz of Wood Element?

Remember Killer Bee uses 8 tails ??

[jorped]

That doesn't give us any concrete info, it is nothing more than "rumours" !
You are trying to reduce Hashirama, but i don't quite agree with it ! He wasn't surely the most feared shinobi of his time just because of his power to control jinchuuriki ! That of course made him quite special , but he is just so much more then that ! And we can also get that , by the page that you showed us that Hashirama was really a beast ! Yamato's Mokuton compared to Hashirama's is unfortunately nothing more than a joke ! http://i28.mangareader.net/naruto/297/naruto-5797.jpg

And another reason to not reduce Hashirama , is the fact that he beat the most powerful Uchiha Member of that time ! Someone that controlled the Kyuubi like it was nothing ! If Madara controlled the Kyuubi like it was nothing , do you really think that Hashirama's power to control Bijuus would be really that helpful for this ultimate battle against Madara ?

Hashirama beat someone that had the most powerful sharingan , and he is still underestimated ! People still underestimate Harishama's speed and mokuton , when he beat someone that possess the best sharingan , which we all know that has the power to predict movements ! If Hashirama wasn't that special how would Madara had ever been defeated by him ? Madara would have predicted easily his movements !

Based on the story that Kishi gave to us Hashirama needs to be much more strong than most people are saying !

[benelori]

Well I think we're confusing each other with semantics here...dealing with a Jinchuuriki as in dealing with the Bijuu chakra...I know about that...and Shodai is great...
Dealing with a Jinchuuriki as in the person, the fighting style, the overwhelming speed and power...that's something I doubt Hashirama can do in this case...

[jorped]

Well I think we're confusing each other with semantics here...dealing with a Jinchuuriki as in dealing with the Bijuu chakra...I know about that...and Shodai is great...
Dealing with a Jinchuuriki as in the person, the fighting style, the overwhelming speed and power...that's something I doubt Hashirama can do in this case...

I know the point you are trying to get to ! And i understand why you think it is true that Hashirama would have trouble with the overwhelming speed and power that a Jinchuuriki possess ! Someone like Bee that controlled this powers to a perfect point is an extraordinary and terrifying opponent !

My arguments are something that wasn't objectively and directly said by Kishi , but i think that it is something that he wanted to transmit !

We all know that Hashirama fought against Madara and won. Tobi gave to us a lot of info about Madara of that time ! We know that he possessed the FMS , the most terrifying Sharingan ! A sharingan like this can predict almost anything, and i don't for even a second doubt that this Sharingan would indeed see Bee movements !
But in the end who was the winner?
Hashirama won against someone like this that had even the Kyuubi at his side , and you want me to think that he wouldn't be able to win against Bee?
If Bee was indeed more powerful than Hashirama , Kishi would have trolled us all , with this stories !
Bee is very strong , but Hashirama is Hashirama !
You mods decided to put Hashirama on the tournament and although i love him , i think that he makes the combats a lot subjective cuz we almost don't have any real "concrete" info about him and his real powers ! We just have stories that are given to us by other characters !
But i think that since the moment we have him on the tournament we have to try to look for every detail that we possess of him .
With the stories that we have of him i don't expect him to not being able to beat Bee !
Hashirama is one of the most powerful shinobis of all time , he is the only man that Madara admired and Madara even recognized him as his rival !
Hashirama is from the Senju clan which was the most powerful clan and he still has the very unique Mokuton , that was nothing less that extraordinary !
Bee is defeated ! Actually i can't really see much people that could defeat Hashirama !

[benelori]

I understand this, and many people consider this argument for their votes...I'm more on those people's side who voted for Bee, because Hashirama hasn't showcased that much on panel...we know his history and background, but from what we know about his techniques from the manga, I think Bee has this...

[tobeulp]

@jorped
I don't know if I am the one you are relaying that message but I clearly trying to say that with Bee being a Jinchuriki this is the worst matchup for him to be against a renowned Ninja for his Controlling/subduing Jinchuriki...
@benelori
We can only speculate if Hashirama can deal or not but I am leaning toward he can deal a Jinchuriki on that level...
Madara is the most feared Shinobi in his prime and Hashirama beat him so I think it is not that hard to believe that Hashirama can keep up with Bee...
But given only the fame of beating Madara isn't gonna make me believe that Hashirama can beat bee but the fact that he is the most expert to control/subdue Jinchuriki that had me believed that he will beat bee..

[jorped]

I understand this, and many people consider this argument for their votes...I'm more on those people's side who voted for Bee, because Hashirama hasn't showcased that much on panel...we know his history and background, but from what we know about his techniques from the manga, I think Bee has this...

Yeah i also actually understand your point , but i think that if it was to analyse Hashirama through what we "really" objectively got to know about him from the manga, i think it would have been better to not include him on this tournament .
Based of what we really saw of him , for example with the Orochimaru vs Hiruzen , we can never say that he was indeed that amazing. But if Kishi didn't trolled us with all those stories about him, he was indeed someone terrifyingly strong !

I think that it would be better if it was Bee to move on , although i voted for Hashirama , cuz Bee turns the fights more objective , but i just don't think and i can't really say that Hashirama would be defeated by him !

If this type of things happens with Hashirama i just can't imagine when we see Tobirama, we know even less about him >.>

[benelori]

Yeah i also actually understand your point , but i think that if it was to analyse Hashirama through what we "really" objectively got to know about him from the manga, i think it would have been better to not include him on this tournament .
Based of what we really saw of him , for example with the Orochimaru vs Hiruzen , we can never say that he was indeed that amazing. But if Kishi didn't trolled us with all those stories about him, he was indeed someone terrifyingly strong !

I think that it would be better if it was Bee to move on , although i voted for Hashirama , cuz Bee turns the fights more objective , but i just don't think and i can't really say that Hashirama would be defeated by him !

If this type of things happens with Hashirama i just can't imagine when we see Tobirama, we know even less about him >.>

This fight reminds me of the Barragan vs Tessai!:lmao...anyway, gladly Tobirama is not around in this tournament...the X was taken by Kitsuchi

[jorped]

This fight reminds me of the Barragan vs Tessai!:lmao...anyway, gladly Tobirama is not around in this tournament...the X was taken by Kitsuchi

I though he was :oh

But Kitsuchi also doesn't change it much >.>
We also don't know much about him though, but it will be definitely easier than if it was Tobirama , cuz Kitsuchi can actually be defeated soon by a lot of the fighters in this tournament :toc

[benelori]

I though he was :oh

But Kitsuchi also doesn't change it much >.>
We also don't know much about him though, but it will be definitely easier than if it was Tobirama , cuz Kitsuchi can actually be defeated soon by a lot of the fighters in this tournament :toc

Replied in the Discussion thread

[mattiaildivino]

If Madara lost to Hashirama, what chance in hell does Killer Bee have? He lost to Sasuke.

No,he didn't.actually he didn't waste the opportunity to escape from the village and above all,he didn't fight against sasuke but against the Taka team.don't understimate them:karin and jugo healed sasuke and was very useful to stop Bee,especially suigetsu who didn't let the biju bomb kill sasuke.sasuke would have lost to Bee if he had been alone.

Who is alive now an who is dead now has nothing to do with it. As per the manga, Madara lost to Hashirama. The end.


Madara: I LOST
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2vhzplf.jpg

Just because Madara is taking a longer view (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+510+-+A+Forbidden+Technique&page=12&next=true) because he has made some gains after surviving means nothing. He lost the battle, and people thought he died. In the end, he will also lose the war.
You too.madara might have lost but it doesn't mean he was weaker than hashirama.according to manga 54,madara lost the fight to have access to senju's abilities.

[White Silver King]

How can people say Hashirama's Bijuu-controlling abilities won't work on Jinchuriki? Yamato used it on Naruto all the time and he is nothing compared to Hashirama (he said so himself). I'm gonna give it to Hashirama (but I don't even know why he's in the Tournament, we know too little about him).

[shuha27]

I really want to vote for Bee because we don't really know that much about Hashirama's ability. We know he defeated Madara, uses wood release, controls bijuus, and was the founder of Konoha. He fought a little with Hiruzen but we can't really decide anything with that fight. I don't want him going through this tournament just on people's assumptions. I do believe though he can take on Bee but still I will cast my vote later.

[huynhlan]

No,he didn't.actually he didn't waste the opportunity to escape from the village and above all,he didn't fight against sasuke but against the Taka team.don't understimate them:karin and jugo healed sasuke and was very useful to stop Bee,especially suigetsu who didn't let the biju bomb kill sasuke.sasuke would have lost to Bee if he had been alone.

You too.madara might have lost but it doesn't mean he was weaker than hashirama.according to manga 54,madara lost the fight to have access to senju's abilities.

I disagree with what you said because have madara won the fight he would still have been able to get harashima's dna, there was nothing stopping him, if he could have won, then I believe he would have try other wise he is retarded, because he fake losing to get a dna he could have when he win, and then wait for like 40 years, man if he did all that then I guess he is the most retarded guy in the manga. I believe that madara believe that he could beat harashima with the kuybi in the fight, but as the fight process, he realized that he still couldn't win, so he come up with a plan as a fail safe in case he lose, and that's to do whatever he can to get a harashima's dna, then fake his death, but even though he success in doing this, he never expected that harashima was that strong, but even though he was successful his injury was to much,forcing him to halt hs plan for a long time. Cause if he could have won, then any smart person would have done it, rather than fake losing and waited for 40 years.

[White Silver King]

....The fight between Madara and Hashirama really needs to be put in the mange and anime.

[huynhlan]

dude I believe we might see a flashback to the battle someday, might even be next week, especially now that naruto is talking to kuybi, kuybi might tell him what happen, hoping.

If what I said actually happen with kuybi talking about the fight next chapter, then man that will totally be ridiculous though, cause this battle will be over by then, and I think bee will win because people will vote more for him cause they saw more of him which will make this be kinda void after people see how powerful harashima really is.

[ceasar]

dude I believe we might see a flashback to the battle someday, might even be next week, especially now that naruto is talking to kuybi, kuybi might tell him what happen, hoping.

If what I said actually happen with kuybi talking about the fight next chapter, then man that will totally be ridiculous though, cause this battle will be over by then, and I think bee will win because people will vote more for him cause they saw more of him which will make this be kinda void after people see how powerful harashima really is.

I actually believe hashirama will take this fight he just has too many advantages against bee. He has mokuton that would negate his bijuu chakra and then he has expertise in suiton and doton. So he effectively is the perfect counter to bee.

I just don't understand how the argument can be made that bee can defeat hashirama who is in the same league with madara and is a direct descendant of the sage of the six paths. This pedigree alone should give him the win unless their is a belief that bee can defeat madara and the sage.

[huynhlan]

I actually believe hashirama will take this fight he just has too many advantages against bee. He has mokuton that would negate his bijuu chakra and then he has expertise in suiton and doton. So he effectively is the perfect counter to bee.

I just don't understand how the argument can be made that bee can defeat hashirama who is in the same league with madara and is a direct descendant of the sage of the six paths. This pedigree alone should give him the win unless their is a belief that bee can defeat madara and the sage.

I know, I agree with what you said, I even voted for harashima, but the fact is the majority will vote for bee cause they saw more of what he can do.

[jdw]

No,he didn't.actually he didn't waste the opportunity to escape from the village and above all,he didn't fight against sasuke but against the Taka team.don't understimate them:karin and jugo healed sasuke and was very useful to stop Bee,especially suigetsu who didn't let the biju bomb kill sasuke.sasuke would have lost to Bee if he had been alone.

You too.madara might have lost but it doesn't mean he was weaker than hashirama.according to manga 54,madara lost the fight to have access to senju's abilities.

Whether he was weaker at the time is of no interest to me. He lost, and he admitted it. As far as I know, he said he fought to gain the abilities, not lost to gain the abilities.

[Hauradrims3]

Whether he was weaker at the time is of no interest to me. He lost, and he admitted it. As far as I know, he said he fought to gain the abilities, not lost to gain the abilities.

He lost, yet he accomplished his objective? And then you people claim Minato won because he got rid of the kyuubi? Man this is some funny shit.

[jdw]

For instance, if you and are are fighting, and I know my goal is to win, and I do not know your goal, which is to steal a strand of my hair, I can completely beat you down and while fighting you can capture a strand of hair. In the end, I won the fight and you got what you wanted. Seriously, idea isn't that complicated. What's really funny is that you don't get this.

The dude admitted he lost. What more does he have to do, stop by your house at dinner and tell you?

[huynhlan]

He lost, yet he accomplished his objective? And then you people claim Minato won because he got rid of the kyuubi? Man this is some funny shit.

Dude you don't get it, he could still accomplished his objective had he won, so why fake his death and waited for 40 years if he could have won, that just mean he is retarded.
And minato didn't only get rid of the kuybi, he also send madara running, how is that not wining, it's not like minato run away from the fight.

[M3J]

Uh wait isn't controlling yagura mean he have to control the biju too, because like bee show, genjutsu don't work on perfect jin.
And another thing so you think if madara could have won that battle, he wouldn't try, instead he decide to fake losing to get a cell, which he could still do have he kill harashima, and decided to wait for like 40 years? Man madara must be retarded or something.

Didn't Tobi admit he lost and that Hashirama was better? Definitely said Hashirama was the top shinobi of his time, so Madara most likely genuinely lost but like Suna (in words of Kakashi), he made a win out of his loss, gaining Hashirama's cells. This does show that Hashirama was among the top shinobi, especially since he along with Tobirama and Madara are praised no matter who says it.

Seeing as how Hashirama fought an Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan and was able to beat one of the best Sharingan users who had the ability to predict movements, it's very likely Hashirama was fast, fast enough that he can keep up with Bee.

Hashirama could come up with a way to restrain Hachibi like trapping Bee in his Mokuton and reinforcing it so Bee can't move.

[huynhlan]

@m3j
yes I know madara lost to harashima, I trying to show other poster who believe that madara lost on purpose see how off their thinking were.

[Hyuuga_Mugen]

Short question for all the Bee skeptics... With trees being living things and all... what's stopping Bee from sucking every tree Hashirama sends his way dry with Samehada? As much as I love Shodaime, it's case closed when you include Samehada into the equation. All the mid-long range Mokuton jutsu would be negated with the 'shave' of a sword. Or is somebody gonna try and tell me Hashirama can control words to the effect of 'a beast with no tail'???

I also think people are reading a little too much into Shodaime being able to control Jinchuuriki, I always saw that being Narutoverse folklore, seeing as he never in life or death fought or tried to control one. A Jinchuuriki is a different beast from a Bijuu altogether. So yes Madara was beaten whilst in control of the Kyuubi. But Madara was unable to use the Kyuubi's (or any other Bijuu) chakra as an extension of his own, which is a vital difference, so the argument of Hashirama>Madara meaning Bee<Hashirama is highly misguided IMO.

Lastly I'll say this. Hashirama is no God. Kishi never created him to be unrivalled. I saw a few people here claiming there's no-one who could beat him. To those I'll ask where in the world have you been in the past year!? All of the current Kage apart from Tsunade and Gaara would eat through a Mokuton quite happily from what's been shown.

Plus we all know Bee would have Hashirama begging to be killed from lame raps and enka :P

[huynhlan]

Short question for all the Bee skeptics... With trees being living things and all... what's stopping Bee from sucking every tree Hashirama sends his way dry with Samehada? As much as I love Shodaime, it's case closed when you include Samehada into the equation. All the mid-long range Mokuton jutsu would be negated with the 'shave' of a sword. Or is somebody gonna try and tell me Hashirama can control words to the effect of 'a beast with no tail'???

I also think people are reading a little too much into Shodaime being able to control Jinchuuriki, I always saw that being Narutoverse folklore, seeing as he never in life or death fought or tried to control one. A Jinchuuriki is a different beast from a Bijuu altogether. So yes Madara was beaten whilst in control of the Kyuubi. But Madara was unable to use the Kyuubi's (or any other Bijuu) chakra as an extension of his own, which is a vital difference, so the argument of Hashirama>Madara meaning Bee<Hashirama is highly misguided IMO.

Lastly I'll say this. Hashirama is no God. Kishi never created him to be unrivalled. I saw a few people here claiming there's no-one who could beat him. To those I'll ask where in the world have you been in the past year!? All of the current Kage apart from Tsunade and Gaara would eat through a Mokuton quite happily from what's been shown.

Plus we all know Bee would have Hashirama begging to be killed from lame raps and enka :P

Well we did see a cheap copy of harashima supressing the power of a Jinchuuriki even though that Jinchuuriki wasn't a perfect one. And we learn that madara was able to control a perfect Jinchuuriki like bee, and we know that harashima's power over biju is greater than madara, so going by those thing it can be conclude that he can supress bee's power, nothing yet in the manga indicated otherwise, and also he can pretty much create a forest in a few second so bee trying to defend himself from branches coming from all direction, even where he is standing is hard.

[bhasty]

Short question for all the Bee skeptics... With trees being living things and all... what's stopping Bee from sucking every tree Hashirama sends his way dry with Samehada? As much as I love Shodaime, it's case closed when you include Samehada into the equation. All the mid-long range Mokuton jutsu would be negated with the 'shave' of a sword. Or is somebody gonna try and tell me Hashirama can control words to the effect of 'a beast with no tail'???

Samehada..? i think kisame was the owner of that one.. Going by that logic, So after Kisame and naruto fight, Does Bee borrowed the samehada from kisame to fight hashirama..?

In this tournament, i think kisame was the owner of the samehada.. And bee's weapon is just his swords..

Kisame is a beast with no tail, but hashirama is the beast of all beast.. He has the power to tamed any beast from ichibi to kyubi with his mokuton.. Hashirama's power is beyond bee's imagination.. He was the direct descendant of the youngest son of the Rikudo Sage.. So maybe hashirama is also a beast with no tail in regards to his chakra..


I also think people are reading a little too much into Shodaime being able to control Jinchuuriki, I always saw that being Narutoverse folklore, seeing as he never in life or death fought or tried to control one. A Jinchuuriki is a different beast from a Bijuu altogether. So yes Madara was beaten whilst in control of the Kyuubi. But Madara was unable to use the Kyuubi's (or any other Bijuu) chakra as an extension of his own, which is a vital difference, so the argument of Hashirama>Madara meaning Bee<Hashirama is highly misguided IMO.

No.. madara with EMS and the full power of the kyubi was defeated by hashirama.. Even though madara unable to use the kyubi's chakra, but still he used the kyubi as his partner or as his summon to fight hashirama.. Madara with his EMS together with the kyubi is too much for anyone to handle.. But hashirama defeated them both.. So hashirama can easily own bee ( who doesn't have an EMS) and hachibi (weaker than kyubi).. so yeah.. hashirama wins..

So hashirama > madara >> bee..

[DementedKirby]

We already know that Hashirama can fully control bijuu. Would he still be able to control one if it's inside a jinchuuriki? I think that's the real question. Because Hashirama was able to defeat Madara + Kyuubi. It wasn't just the Kyuubi who emerged from a jinchuuriki, but Madara fighting with the Kyuubi under his control. So basically Hashirama had to deal with both threats. And he won. I can see Hashirama defeat KillerBee if he doesn't go 8tails and defeat KillerBee if he were to go 8tails.

[Zeltrax]

Nice matchup.
but I'm voting for the wise and strong hokage that gave Madara a run for his money, Kirabi is good but lacks true war experience

[Murdock]

Who is alive now an who is dead now has nothing to do with it. As per the manga, Madara lost to Hashirama. The end.

Just because Madara is taking a longer view (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+510+-+A+Forbidden+Technique&page=12&next=true) because he has made some gains after surviving means nothing. He lost the battle, and people thought he died. In the end, he will also lose the war.

and that's the problem at that time who knows wha Kishis intended with the story, I think his story telling is basicly made up during the story itself and not any firm structure as you see in books therefore I don't tend to agree with those types of comments but kinda go with the flow we can see presently. Hell Kishi has contradictions even between manga and databook itself. For example saying that Sarutobi was stongest Kage during that span we have seen in manga (at his age of 70) is ridiculous because A or Oonoki would wipe the floor with him in no time IMO. So when Kishi says something and after 2 years of storytelling he says different. Well.

That's like saying Bee lost to Sasuke. He killed him twice, and then "lost" because of higher plan.

[Rikudou King]

However the difference the fact remains the mokuton of hashirama is greater than that of yamato. This difference in living trees and artificial is a great difference because the physical energy of the senju is what makes them so powerful. Hashirama can counter the lightning with suiton and defeat bee because of the fact bee would only be able to use his own chakra for sure. The kirabi would be negated by mokuton and then it would be a battle of affinities and hashirama would take it because of his use and his great ability with suiton and doton abilities. By who's account? Again, we were never told that Yamato's mokuton techniques were weaker then Hashirama. Yamato made mention of his ability to seal a Bijuu was inferior to Hashirama, but nothing about the mokuton itself. And Yamato has the physical energy of the Senju. He can make living trees if he wants too (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-316/page007.html), he just seemly does. Suiton wouldn't counter the lightning. If anything, it would enhance the effect of the lightning from what we have seen. Aside from Kirabi himself possessing a huge amount of chakra, he would still be able to have the Hachibi give him chakra. Hashirama can't prevent that. Mokuton only prevents the Hachibi from forming, it doesn't prevent it's chakra from being used and affinity-wise Kirabi has the edge since his raiton would cut through the mokuton and doton.


I think that this might respond to your question ! And i don't think that we should underestimate Hashirama's Mokuton ! Yamato's Mokuton compared to Hashirama's is nothing more than a joke Not really, because Madara being fast doesn't mean he would have fought mobile. He could have easily been like Itachi, who while fast fights stationary most of the time. Also, the Sharingan's prediction ability would only apply to close combat, not if they fought at a distance. When exactly was it shown that Yamato's mokuton is a joke? No large difference between their ability to use mokuton has been made, only their ability to deal with a Bijuu.

[kakashidad]

Benelori..I think you and a few other are getting this twisted.The wood element abiilty of the shodaine is unrivalled!And it's capable of more than just sealing.The shodaine himself was without a doubt a SUPREME tactian and that's not speculation on my part but manga fact, really.Madara has already recognized him to be his rival and the man he most hated and LOST too.

These things are convientantly overlooked...imo because the match up was probably done with bias...Either way.All we can really do with what we have is speculate! as to the outcome of this and every other match up.As that's what the remitt of this tournament is..to SPECULATE.Using what the manga provides within the confine of your rules(which i have trampled over once or twice.)

If all this disscussion is to see who gets the upper had from the off.Then it would be extremely foolish, imo.To suggest that bee would go straight into byuui mode...no?But in the event that he did.All that form provides is additional chakra.And the ''will of fire'' dictates that a ninja should ENDURE it's not all about how many jutsus you process...I'll always go with the endurances and tactical abilities of whoever is put forth.Peace.

It's always been about which ideology you prefer or follow....KNOWING A SHEDLOAD OF JUTSU orochimaru and akatsuki viewpoint.Or THE ABILITY TO ENDURE.And be the last man standing...Jiraiya and the whole of the leaf have been brought up on this very principle...clearly the wrong doer don't from the leaf don't follow these princples...oro, sasuke kabuto and the like.
[hr]
Not really, because Madara being fast doesn't mean he would have fought mobile. He could have easily been like Itachi, who while fast fights stationary most of the time. Also, the Sharingan's prediction ability would only apply to close combat, not if they fought at a distance. When exactly was it shown that Yamato's mokuton is a joke? No large difference between their ability to use mokuton has been made, only their ability to deal with a Bijuu.
__________________
Against harashirma....come on Rikidou King.Even itachi had to move his body against his brother sasuke,There been a few depiction of how that battle went down.And everyone bar one has madara CHARGING harashirma...So it's utter nonsense to make out that he would of fought any other way...That's fact from within the manga.

I think you mods should of put madara/tobi up against the 1st...i'd of loved to see how you guys would of ''spinned'' that outcome...lmao.You could'nt of though.As you'd never of got madara past the first match...just like your finding out.With this one...i knew this was broke.
[hr]
@Rikidou king
We have manga evidence that actually states that tenzo ability with wood element is nothing LET ME repeat NOTHING in comparion with the 1st Harashirma Senju.So when you say this to make your argument it's misleading mate...

''By who's account? Again, we were never told that Yamato's mokuton techniques were weaker then Hashirama''.
[hr]

Short question for all the Bee skeptics... With trees being living things and all... what's stopping Bee from sucking every tree Hashirama sends his way dry with Samehada? As much as I love Shodaime, it's case closed when you include Samehada into the equation. All the mid-long range Mokuton jutsu would be negated with the 'shave' of a sword. Or is somebody gonna try and tell me Hashirama can control words to the effect of 'a beast with no tail'???

I also think people are reading a little too much into Shodaime being able to control Jinchuuriki, I always saw that being Narutoverse folklore, seeing as he never in life or death fought or tried to control one. A Jinchuuriki is a different beast from a Bijuu altogether. So yes Madara was beaten whilst in control of the Kyuubi. But Madara was unable to use the Kyuubi's (or any other Bijuu) chakra as an extension of his own, which is a vital difference, so the argument of Hashirama>Madara meaning Bee<Hashirama is highly misguided IMO.

Lastly I'll say this. Hashirama is no God. Kishi never created him to be unrivalled. I saw a few people here claiming there's no-one who could beat him. To those I'll ask where in the world have you been in the past year!? All of the current Kage apart from Tsunade and Gaara would eat through a Mokuton quite happily from what's been shown.

Plus we all know Bee would have Hashirama begging to be killed from lame raps and enka :P

Whats stopping samehada from sucking the trees dry you say..lmao,sorry.One thing comes straight to the fore.NATURAL ENERGY.As oppose to chakra.Furthermore,samehada has NEVER let me repeat NEVER displayed such an ablity or feat.:o

Oh,and to put this nonsense to bed about harashirma can't or does not or has never faced a jincruuriki in his life...well who was he married too?yeah that's right MITO,his wife the kyuubi FIRST host..A jincruuriki.You guys seemed to be getting deceived by madara uttering.And taking them as Factual accounts of what went down.And that it WENT down the way he says it did.That's a big mistake in my view,any skillful liar will stick as close as possible to the truth but then when it matters.Change certain parts to aid or make themselves seem better, bigger badder than they really are.

[matsemann08]

If Hashirama got control of the eight-tails maybe Bee could disrupt the chakra and break the eight-tails out of Hashiramas control, the same way the eight-tails would disrupt Bees chakra if Bee got caught under a genjutsu.
If Hashiramas control methods utilize the same principal as genjutsu; chakra disturbing.

[Hyuuga_Mugen]

@huynhlan You're still disregarding Samehada. That sword would have no trouble negating branches or trees.

And yeh we've seen Tenzou suppress Naruto in 4 tailed mode, but every time he's done so it's been the Kyuubi that was in control. I personally believe that we'd see a different result if Naruto mastered cloak mode. Jinchuurikis have always been stated to have advantages over Bijuu alone, so if the human and Bijuu are in cooperation who knows what could happen. Take for example the 4 tailed Jinchuuriki. If he was wrapped in wood I don't see why a Lava release tech spewed from his mouth couldn't save him. I'm just using that example for demonstration purposes, but Bee himself is very experienced in Raiton...

@bhasty Well all that was mentioned to me is that we can only take fact from the Manga to argue who would be the victor. As far as I'm aware, Bee being the owner of Samehada is fact. Simple.
(Just checked the rules and there's no limitation for Bee... So he definately has Samehada). Check the spoiler tab (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68415)

And I don't like the way you're heralding EMS as though you know what it can do lol. But regardless that's not the point. The point is that Madara could not control the Kyuubi's chakra as his own. He was not a Jinchuuriki, the only attacks I could think of Kyuubi using in that state is a Bijuu ball, and errr a slash? Tail whip maybe? But that's it, fair enough it was with 100% of the Kyuubi and on a massive scale but that's all Kyuubi would've been able to do. As a Jinchuuriki he would've been much more versatile and dare I say it may have stood a chance at beating Hashirama.

So what if Hachibi is weaker than Kyuubi? Naruto has never really been about strength it's about how you use your strength and tools to overcome unlikely odds.

@kakashidad Hashirama is no sage. His Bloodline Limit is not Sage Jutsu lol. Mokuton is Doton and Suiton, not nature energy. He creates life with his jutsu. I can't remember reading anywhere that Mokuton is natural energy. So unless you would like to prove otherwise (which i'm totally open to :D) Samehada would suck a Mokuton dry.

What about Mito? She was the first but I can't recall reading anywhere that Hashirama had her under his control. She was fully capable of controlling the Kyuubi herself so I'm afraid that is a void argument. Like I said before neither in life or death has Hashirama been shown to control a Jinchuuriki... simple facts. People can assume what they like really I'm not bothered if you want to delude yourself but it's the truth, but don't take my word for it, read the Manga without rose tinted glasses

[mattiaildivino]

the key of the fight could be Samehada,is it with Bee? if it is,then Bee could absorb hashirama's chakra even during his attacks.and who knows?, maybe Shark's Skin merges with Bee,and they become one body much stronger than how it was before,able to steal hashirama's chakra with just a touch.

[juUnior]

Ok Bee was going to lose to sasuke with help from sasuke's friends if he hadn't fake his own capture.
???I think anyone <including Sasuke fans> would agree that in THAT particualr fight it was team Taka who was outclassed by Bee <in this circumstances: that Sasuke hasn't yet mastered MS techniques> He just annihilated the WHOLE team Taka, but because he wanted to free himself, he did what was necessary for him.

[kakashidad]

If Hashirama got control of the eight-tails maybe Bee could disrupt the chakra and break the eight-tails out of Hashiramas control, the same way the eight-tails would disrupt Bees chakra if Bee got caught under a genjutsu.
If Hashiramas control methods utilize the same principal as genjutsu; chakra disturbing.

You are aware that the shodaine had a boat load of actual ''seals''other than the necklace that's been handed down and that can help in suppressing the kyuubi or any other byuui?

And his genjutsu could come into play more than once.It's all in what tactic are employed.You guys that go for purely might and loads of jutsu.
Are so blinded...you'd be like bee in harashirma ''pitch black jutsu'' lol.
Pun definately intented.:D

[huynhlan]

@hyuuga_mugen
You are missing my point on control, from what we know in the manga harashima's control >madara, and madara can even control a perfect jinchiriki like bee, and so if we goes by what we know, harashima can still control and supress bee's power.

Ok about samehada, let me ask you something, yamato was show to use his power to create houses in konoha, so you think if samehada touch those house it will be gone?

@rikudou king
from all the flash back picture that we show madara was alway show to be moving when he battle harashima.
And about yamato, so you think because it was never said in the manga so that mean his wood tech. are on the same level as harashima, and that the only thing he is weaker at is the sealing power. Ok dude if this is true then I don't even know how strong kabuto, or a pre ms sasuke is compare to prime madara. these two show they can take yamato, yet you sem to think his abilities are the same as the 1st, so if we what you said, anyone that is stronger than yamato basically mean they aare stronger than the 1st too?

@all
oh yeah wasn't zetsu created with the first's dna or power, then doesn't it mean the first possess the power to do a tech. that is similar to white zetsu's spout tech. the chackra sucking one.

[Delbi]

the key of the fight could be Samehada,is it with Bee? if it is,then Bee could absorb hashirama's chakra even during his attacks.and who knows?, maybe Shark's Skin merges with Bee,and they become one body much stronger than how it was before,able to steal hashirama's chakra with just a touch.

Bee does not have Samehada this was explained already by the mods in the Tourney Rules I believe.
[hr]
Also, there is something people need to understand about Hashimara's "control" of Biju.

Hashirama's Kekkai Genkai allows him to "surpress" the chakra of a Biju. He literally binds them, makes it so they can't move/do anything. Yamato showed us this when he surpressed the Kyuubi's chakra within Naruto.

Madara on the other hand, does not "surpress" anything. With his Sharigan, he was able to control the Kyuubi, and bend it to his will. Hashirama has never shown or been told to have that power.

Now, Hashirama's "control" is superior to Madara's control over the Kyuubi only in the sense that he doesn't control the Kyuubi's mind, but he surpresses its power. So it matters not if Madara controls the Kyuubi or if the Kyuubi is free, Hashirama will always be able to surpress it's chakra no matter what state it is in. Yet, he could never control it in battle and give it orders like Madara did from what we know.

[ceasar]

By who's account? Again, we were never told that Yamato's mokuton techniques were weaker then Hashirama. Yamato made mention of his ability to seal a Bijuu was inferior to Hashirama, but nothing about the mokuton itself. And Yamato has the physical energy of the Senju. He can make living trees if he wants too (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-316/page007.html), he just seemly does. Suiton wouldn't counter the lightning. If anything, it would enhance the effect of the lightning from what we have seen. Aside from Kirabi himself possessing a huge amount of chakra, he would still be able to have the Hachibi give him chakra. Hashirama can't prevent that. Mokuton only prevents the Hachibi from forming, it doesn't prevent it's chakra from being used and affinity-wise Kirabi has the edge since his raiton would cut through the mokuton and doton.

Not really, because Madara being fast doesn't mean he would have fought mobile. He could have easily been like Itachi, who while fast fights stationary most of the time. Also, the Sharingan's prediction ability would only apply to close combat, not if they fought at a distance. When exactly was it shown that Yamato's mokuton is a joke? No large difference between their ability to use mokuton has been made, only their ability to deal with a Bijuu.

The sealing power lies in the mokuton and the DNA that helps nullify bijuu chakra. By his mokuton not having the same power inherently these things must be weaker. Also either way hashirama can counter kirabi and erase the bijuu powers and make bee fight just with his affinity and with mokuton still in effect hashirama can defeat him.

[Zoro #1]

This will be one tough fight I hoped that they would have have a draw choice but they don't. Both have powerful tech. and are well known in the shinobi world.

[bhasty]

@bhasty Well all that was mentioned to me is that we can only take fact from the Manga to argue who would be the victor. As far as I'm aware, Bee being the owner of Samehada is fact. Simple.
(Just checked the rules and there's no limitation for Bee... So he definately has Samehada). Check the spoiler tab (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68415).

No.. I think it was already stated at the first page of this thread.. Go back to the first page of this thread and read the definition of every fighter..

And if bee is the owner of samehada in this tournament then why kisame had it in his fight against naruto in the first round..?


And I don't like the way you're heralding EMS as though you know what it can do lol. But regardless that's not the point. The point is that Madara could not control the Kyuubi's chakra as his own. He was not a Jinchuuriki, the only attacks I could think of Kyuubi using in that state is a Bijuu ball, and errr a slash? Tail whip maybe? But that's it, fair enough it was with 100% of the Kyuubi and on a massive scale but that's all Kyuubi would've been able to do. As a Jinchuuriki he would've been much more versatile and dare I say it may have stood a chance at beating Hashirama..

No.. Madara can control the kyubi's movement and power.. Madara can make the kyubi to walk, to run, to used his power, to used his claws, to stomp every one with his feet and so on.. MAdara control the kyubi as his own body and power.. Even though madara couldn't control the kyubi's chakra as his own or as a jinchuuriki, but the thing is, madara can control the kyubi's power as a whole..

If Madara has an EMS, then maybe he has the same MS power like itachi, like susanoo, amaterasu and tsukuyomi ormaybe he has the same one MS power of kakashi the kamui..




So what if Hachibi is weaker than Kyuubi? Naruto has never really been about strength it's about how you use your strength and tools to overcome unlikely odds.

The kyubi's power is beyond imagination.. Kyubi's chakra is full of life energy even if it's just a half.. Hashirama who can control/tamed the kyubi so the hachibi mode of bee is not definitely a big deal for hashirama..

The 4th tail naruto is i think the same as lvl 2 of bee.. Yamato, a cheap copy of hashirama can even suppress the 4th tail naruto in his sealing wood technique. So hashirama can easily suppress the hachibi's chakra ..

Just like someone said that madara who has the EMS defeated by hashirama. Madara who has the EMS, must seen every attack/movement of hashirama because of his sharingan, but why he was defeated together with the kyubi by hashirama.? Speed is suppose to be useless in the sharingan users not unless you have the super speed that even the sharingan can't follow.. So hashirama definitely has a super speed, a powerful ninjutsu,genjutsu and his mokuton in order to defeat the kyubi and madara..

[Rikudou King]

We have manga evidence that actually states that tenzo ability with wood element is nothing LET ME repeat NOTHING in comparion with the 1st Harashirma Senju.So when you say this to make your argument it's misleading mate...

''By who's account? Again, we were never told that Yamato's mokuton techniques were weaker then Hashirama''. Which chapter states that, because as far as I've seen, neither the manga nor databook mentions anything about Yamato's mokuton being inferior to the mokuton of Hashirama. The only stated difference between them was their ability to handle Bijuus.


from all the flash back picture that we show madara was alway show to be moving when he battle harashima.
And about yamato, so you think because it was never said in the manga so that mean his wood tech. are on the same level as harashima, and that the only thing he is weaker at is the sealing power. Ok dude if this is true then I don't even know how strong kabuto, or a pre ms sasuke is compare to prime madara. these two show they can take yamato, yet you sem to think his abilities are the same as the 1st, so if we what you said, anyone that is stronger than yamato basically mean they aare stronger than the 1st too? You mean the single flashback we got that showed Madara fighting a long distance away from Hashirama with the Kyuubi? The strength of their mokuton doesn't equal their complete fighting strength. The issue here is whether Yamato's mokuton is somehow physically weaker or something, and thus whether we should assume that Hashirama's mokuton can take more damage and hold back a stronger opponent. As far as we have seen, there is no difference, thus the strength of the two mokuton should be the same.


The sealing power lies in the mokuton and the DNA that helps nullify bijuu chakra. By his mokuton not having the same power inherently these things must be weaker. Also either way hashirama can counter kirabi and erase the bijuu powers and make bee fight just with his affinity and with mokuton still in effect hashirama can defeat him. Inherent ability doesn't mean the actual power is weaker. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is considered weaker then Itachi's, yet Sasuke's Sharingan is considered superior. Yamato not being able to handle a Bijuu as well as Hashirama has no barring on the strength of his mokuton, especially when no such comment was ever made. If that was the case, Yamato would have mentioned his mokuton directly instead of just the sealing ability. and Hashirama can't counter what Kirabi can do. Hashirama's affinity would have no effect on Kirabi's lightning nature and we saw that lightning nature can cut right through mokuton. Kirabi has the edge in speed, physical power, and chakra.

[Gourab]

Hashirama has an edge over any jinchuriki. So I go for Hashirama.

[huynhlan]

@rikudou king
here you go
http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-4/naruto/chapter-399.html
another prove that madara move when he fought against harashima.

And about yamato's mokuton, firstof all, mokuton itself is the key to supressing biju power, yet yamato couldn't do it without the necklace which show that his mokuton is way inferior than harashima, which he himself admitted, and even orochimaru refer to him as a fail experiment(if I rember correctly) also indicated that orochimaru believe yamato mokuton abilities wasn't on the level that orochimaru desire the level of harashima.

[kakashidad]

:D
Which chapter states that, because as far as I've seen, neither the manga nor databook mentions anything about Yamato's mokuton being inferior to the mokuton of Hashirama. The only stated difference between them was their ability to handle Bijuus.

You mean the single flashback we got that showed Madara fighting a long distance away from Hashirama with the Kyuubi? The strength of their mokuton doesn't equal their complete fighting strength. The issue here is whether Yamato's mokuton is somehow physically weaker or something, and thus whether we should assume that Hashirama's mokuton can take more damage and hold back a stronger opponent. As far as we have seen, there is no difference, thus the strength of the two mokuton should be the same.

Inherent ability doesn't mean the actual power is weaker. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is considered weaker then Itachi's, yet Sasuke's Sharingan is considered superior. Yamato not being able to handle a Bijuu as well as Hashirama has no barring on the strength of his mokuton, especially when no such comment was ever made. If that was the case, Yamato would have mentioned his mokuton directly instead of just the sealing ability. and Hashirama can't counter what Kirabi can do. Hashirama's affinity would have no effect on Kirabi's lightning nature and we saw that lightning nature can cut right through mokuton. Kirabi has the edge in speed, physical power, and chakra.

@Rikidou King
You wanted proof...here you go,enjoy.:D

http://www.mangareader.net/93-302-9/naruto/chapter-297.html

[Nath Uchiha]

That supports Rikudou Kings proposal....maybe you have the wrong one? Yamato clearly says that his suppression skills do not match the Shodaimes, and that it was one of the reasons that he was elected Hokage in the first place.

[ceasar]

Which chapter states that, because as far as I've seen, neither the manga nor databook mentions anything about Yamato's mokuton being inferior to the mokuton of Hashirama. The only stated difference between them was their ability to handle Bijuus.

You mean the single flashback we got that showed Madara fighting a long distance away from Hashirama with the Kyuubi? The strength of their mokuton doesn't equal their complete fighting strength. The issue here is whether Yamato's mokuton is somehow physically weaker or something, and thus whether we should assume that Hashirama's mokuton can take more damage and hold back a stronger opponent. As far as we have seen, there is no difference, thus the strength of the two mokuton should be the same.

Inherent ability doesn't mean the actual power is weaker. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is considered weaker then Itachi's, yet Sasuke's Sharingan is considered superior. Yamato not being able to handle a Bijuu as well as Hashirama has no barring on the strength of his mokuton, especially when no such comment was ever made. If that was the case, Yamato would have mentioned his mokuton directly instead of just the sealing ability. and Hashirama can't counter what Kirabi can do. Hashirama's affinity would have no effect on Kirabi's lightning nature and we saw that lightning nature can cut right through mokuton. Kirabi has the edge in speed, physical power, and chakra.

The mokuton has sealing properties as seen when yamato uses it on naruto to stop transformation's either way I doubt yamato is equal to hashirama in any way. Either way speed and physical energy and power hashirama has chakra bee would have him beat if he could use his bijuu but hashirama would take that away or suppress it. Raiton would work well against his water and doton but other than that he would be defeated.

[Realtwisted]

Well, no one can deny Hashirama's historical accomplishments - he had enough firepower to make it out alive from the fight against full-powered EMS Madara and batshit crazy Kyuubi. That, and his level of Mokuton mastery is much higher than Yamato's. Yamato could stop Kyuubi Jinchuriki with difficulty, why should Hashirama be in any trouble against Hachibi Jinchuriki?

Jinchurikis might not be morons, but neither is Hashirama. Since he is famous for capturing and sealing Bijuus we are free to assume that he has couple of trapping techs under his sleeve.

lol, can't agree more because i can't...
The first HOkage is to strong for Killer Bee to handle. No only he was the stronger senju, but he fought against Madara EMS in equal terms along with Nine Tail fox.
Idk, but have anybody ask the question why did Madara never seal the Nine tail inside himself??
And it cannot do any with his Nine Moon plan. I mean seriously, a kid" Naruto" has becoem strong as he is know because of the beast, imagen what madara can do and he had EMS at the time he fought First hokage.

[SaintSheik]

Leaning towards the first seeing how he was able to defeat Madarra prime with the Nine Tails. Sure that's not the same as fighting a host (Bee), but its enough to make me think that this Senju can take this one.

[kakashidad]

That supports Rikudou Kings proposal....maybe you have the wrong one? Yamato clearly says that his suppression skills do not match the Shodaimes, and that it was one of the reasons that he was elected Hokage in the first place.

@Rikidou King
You wanted proof...here you go,enjoy.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-302-9/...apter-297.html
???
Pray tell, how the words....''still as the lab rat,my powers will NEVER measure up to the oringnals''

That clearly infers that he is INFERIOR to the shodaine.Which is understandable and an established manga fact.:p

[Rikudou King]

here you go
http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-4/naruto/chapter-399.html
another prove that madara move when he fought against harashima.

And about yamato's mokuton, firstof all, mokuton itself is the key to supressing biju power, yet yamato couldn't do it without the necklace which show that his mokuton is way inferior than harashima, which he himself admitted, and even orochimaru refer to him as a fail experiment(if I rember correctly) also indicated that orochimaru believe yamato mokuton abilities wasn't on the level that orochimaru desire the level of harashima. That's from an earlier battle, from which we don't know of the outcome. Hashirama could very well have lost that battle because of that.

If that was the case, then it would have been mentioned that Yamato's mokuton didn't live up to Hashirama, not simply that his sealing ability didn't. And Orochimaru didn't refer to Yamato as a fail experiment. He believed it was a fail experiment because he thought that all the children died. Orochimaru didn't even learn of Yamato til their meeting on the bridge.


:D

@Rikidou King
You wanted proof...here you go,enjoy.:D

http://www.mangareader.net/93-302-9/naruto/chapter-297.html That's not proof at all. Yamato is clearing speaking of his ability to seal, which he directly mentions before and after. Again, if he was talking about the mokuton itself, he would have simply said so.


The mokuton has sealing properties as seen when yamato uses it on naruto to stop transformation's either way I doubt yamato is equal to hashirama in any way. Either way speed and physical energy and power hashirama has chakra bee would have him beat if he could use his bijuu but hashirama would take that away or suppress it. Raiton would work well against his water and doton but other than that he would be defeated. Not really. Every time we have seen Yamato use it on Naruto, it was a separate action. The mokuton itself did nothing to the Bijuu cloak. Yamato would use the mokuton to grab Naruto, and then begin the sealing. There's no proof that Hashirama has speed comparable to Kirabi and we saw from his fight with Sarutobi that he doesn't have physical power. Kirabi has a ton of chakra even without the Hachibi, considering he's able to form the Bijuu cloak using his own chakra. And Hashirama can't keep the Hachibi from giving kirabi chakra. He can only prevent Kiabi from using the cloak forms and that's only if he can catch Kirabi. Raiton is all Kirabi needs. Hashirama has nothing to counter it, while Kirabi has the advantage over two of the natures that Hashirama will be using. Not to mention that Hashirama would be able to do nothing against Kirabi's swordsmanship.

[jdw]

How does Bee have the advantage over the two natures Hashirama will be using?

[ninjabot]

He means that Raiton>Doton and Suiton, the two natures that are required for Mokuton.

[Zoro #1]

He means that Raiton>Doton and Suiton, the two natures that are required for Mokuton.

Those are the only two we know of, and we know that he was a master in using those two elements, then his wife was a Jin. so he might had been the one who usually kept the chakra of the nine tails under control. Bee has raiton which stronger than doton and suiton, but we don't know how good he is in using it, we have only seen him use it with his sword, all the other times he has spamed the 8 tails.

[jdw]

He means that Raiton>Doton and Suiton, the two natures that are required for Mokuton.
But is that really true?

According to the elemental wheel, Raiton > Doton, but not Suiton. There is not any Raiton > Suiton relationship. Also, Mokuton does not appear on the elemental wheel, so I am uncertain if Raiton > Mokuton. Sasuke had some success against Yamato, but that isn't conclusive because there wasn't really a way to compare the levels of the jutsu in that altercation as Mokuton is a Kekkai Genkai.


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5863/wheelq.jpg

[Zoro #1]

But is that really true?

According to the elemental wheel, Raiton > Doton, but not Suiton. There is not any Raiton > Suiton relationship. Also, Mokuton does not appear on the elemental wheel, so I am uncertain if Raiton > Mokuton. Sasuke had some success against Yamato, but that isn't conclusive because there wasn't really a way to compare the levels of the jutsu in that altercation as Mokuton is a Kekkai Genkai.


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5863/wheelq.jpg

Actually suiton is weak bcz we saw dauri use raiton to stop suigetsu in his tracks, but how weak we don't know plus bee hasn't shown much talent in his raiton base tech. so to say that 1st would lose bcz bee knows raiton is not right.

[jdw]

Actually suiton is weak bcz we saw dauri use raiton to stop suigetsu in his tracks, but how weak we don't know plus bee hasn't shown much talent in his raiton base tech. so to say that 1st would use bcz bee knows raiton is not right.

Not necessarily. More than anything, Suigetsu himself (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+463+-+Sasuke+vs+Raikage&page=8&next=true) (another example (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+412+-+Terror+Unlike+Any+Other&page=2&next=true)) appears to be weak to Raiton for one reason or another. There is no true Raiton > Suiton relationship formed in the manga.


Headline: Nature Alteration is the basis of ninjutsu, and a vital point in the development of a new jutsu. All the information about it is noted here...!!

{The Five Great Natures}
Caption: The five varieties of chakra nature all ninjutsu are based upon.
Text: When one uses ninjutsu, the act of including things such as Fire or Wind nature to chakra for added efficiency is called Nature Alteration. Comprehending Nature Alteration requires some individual qualities, but usually, one person can master one Nature Alteration with ease, and people who master more than two are commonplace among Jounin.

Comment
-Earth is weak against Lightning. The five Nature Alterations are interrelated in such terms of superiority and inferiority...!!
Chart: [Clockwise, starting from the top]Inf.(Fire)Sup.→Inf.(Wind)Sup.→Inf.(Lightning)Sup.→Inf.(Earth)Sup.→Inf.(Water)Sup.→
[In the middle]The five great Chakra Nature Alterations

Specificities of the five great Nature Alterations
(Fire) Flame-like high-temperature chakra that burns everything it touches to a crisp. It has the additional effect of setting the target aflame, and stands besides Wind as an offense-specialized style.
(Wind) Blade-like chakra to behead, split and sever anything and anyone. Used with special ninja tools or in jutsu, it has the best offensive ability in close to medium range.
(Lightning) Easy to diffuse, it has good compatibility with medium to long range jutsu. Infused into a metallic weapon, it adds harming and killing efficiency, as well as electrocution...!!
(Earth) The Nature that alters everything in solidity and composition. If one masters it, it is possible to give jutsu or objects the resistance of steel and the flexibility of clay.
(Water) A good compatibility with various Shape Alterations. Creating a mist to hide oneself, or a tidal wave for confinement, it is greatly beneficial for supporting purposes.

{Decision}
Caption: Determining one's type with chakra-responsive paper!!
Text: Before the straining can start, it is necessary to know which Nature one is matched with. The best way is to pour chakra into some chakra-responsive paper, and see how it alters it. With Wind, the paper will be cut, and with Lightning, crumples will appear. The Alteration will be made clear by such changes.

Comment
-Chakra-responsive paper is made out of special trees fed and grown with chakra.

{Training Method}
Caption: To each Nature its distinct, specific training
[In white]Training in Wind Nature Alteration

Picture of the grinning Naruto
First Step
Reinforcing his Nature Alteration!!
Comment
-He keeps on pouring Wind chakra into the leaf until it's cut in half.

Picture of the waterfall
Second Step
Instant Alteration volume increase!!
Comment
-To increase the amount of chakra he can release in an instant, he takes the crash course: cutting a waterfall...!!

Picture of Fuuton: Rasengan
Third Step
Including Nature Alteration into the jutsu!!
Comment
-The final step, with the highest degree in difficulty: inclusion into the jutsu...!!

Text: To learn Nature Alteration, one must undergo a training specific to each Nature. In the case of Wind Nature Alteration, the steps to take are first: strengthening one's chakra Nature, second: Alteration volume increase, and third: addition into the jutsu. Completing this training normally takes several years.

[ninjabot]

It's true that it has an advantage over water, but not based on Kishimoto's elemental wheel. Water still conducts electricity in Naruto, and thus, a ninja using water getting raiton charged through the water they just shot out or are surrounded by definately gets harmed.

It's like, for the most part, the laws of nature aren't thrown out the window. A katon will melt a hyouton, despite suiton having an elemental advantage over fire. So think of it this way:

Raiton>Doton

Electricity>Water

EDIT: To understand it better, think of what constitutes an elemental advantage in the elemental wheel. Jutsu of one element will overcome a jutsu next to them on the element wheel, and fail to one behind them in the wheel. Raiton won't "overcome" a suiton in a clash. It'll simply spread out through it electrocuting anything else it touches (like when Darui shot raiton through the suiton that hit Sasuke).

So no. Not elemental advantage based on the wheel. But an advantage depending on how it's used.

[chilibun]

It's true that it has an advantage over water, but not based on Kishimoto's elemental wheel. Water still conducts electricity in Naruto, and thus, a ninja using water getting raiton charged through the water they just shot out or are surrounded by definately gets harmed.

It's like, for the most part, the laws of nature aren't thrown out the window. A katon will melt a hyouton, despite suiton having an elemental advantage over fire. So think of it this way:

Raiton>Doton

Electricity>Water

I'm going to disagree with this. Water being conductive does not mean it is weak to it. A raiton jutsu vs. sution jutsu meeting head on offers no advantage to either side.

[insid3rkill3r]

The reason why Suigeitsu is weak against Raiton is because he is made of water himself, and given that Raiton travels through Suiton as seen when Darui merged both his suiton and raiton technique to attack Sasuke, then Suigetsu is bound to feel 'numb' when he's being hit by Raiton, as his whole body is being affected.

I wouldnt consider Raiton > Suiton, but rather that Raiton can use Suiton as a medium.

Anyways, what is clear is that Yamato's Mokuton was prooved to be inaffective against Sasuke's raiton, and that by a lot... but if Hashimara's carries more 'sealing' ability, it's likely because his Mokuton is generally stronger than Yamato's.


Either way, i believe Hashimara takes this without a doubt, as much as Raiton can be great against Mokuton, Bee doesnt seem to be as efficient as Sasuke is with Raiton, he doesnt have his versatility.

And while Hype doesnt seem to be all that usefull, i think for someone we have pretty much never seen fought, it is somewhat important.

Oonoki, who has fought Madara, hyped him as being a man who should have been able to do anything if he wanted to due to his high calibre, i think it's fair to add Hashimara into the mix as he was matching Madara in everyway in their prime.


Madara may have lost, may have planned it, but Hashimara was still able to defeat him nonetheless, and yes his wife was there to seal Kyuubi, but it also sounded like Hashimara was able to take Kyuubi away from Madara during their fight somehow, when it comes to Madara and Hashimara, and coming from a Kage who has seen everything there was to see in the Shinobi world, i'll take this as an important statement regarding both Madara and Hashimara's caliber.

My vote goes for Hashimara.

[ninjabot]

@jdw and chilibun: Because the water comes from inside people, or from natural sources, it has the natural minerals in it that helps it conduct electricity. Suigetsu and Darui are proof that ninjutsu-created water is conductive, or else Darui wouldn't have run it Raiton through the Suiton, and Suigetsu wouldn't have been able to amplify the charge from Sasuke's Chidori.

As for firing a Raiton at a coming Suiton, you really don't see what would happen if an electrical current road the water stream you were either touching or spitting from your mouth? It's been proven that a large enough electric charge can fly up falling water formations if the distance isn't too far.

[morau-san]

i voted hashirama. his bijuu suppression and advanced mokuton take it. not easily as bee has the bijuu bomb but the kyuubi had it too... and madara was madara.... and hashirama still won... so yeah. he has strong support that he is strong.

off-topic: any reason WHY mokuton in particular can suppress bijuu powers? if its been explained b4... plz link. ty

[chilibun]

@ninjabot

I know suiton can be used as a medium for raiton, but it does not necessarily grant it an advantage over it. All we have is Kishi's elemental wheel. Lets be real. The manga is not going to follow all the fundamental laws or even logic at times. Heck, there is no reason why doton should even be weak against raiton if you think about it except Kishi claims it is so. There is no proof that a raiton would be able to travel through a suiton if it meets head on. Did Darui shock himself when he mixed suiton with raiton? Also, I don't remember suiton ever used to amplify the powers of chidori.

[ninjabot]

When Suigetsu liquified partially after Killerbee punched through his chest. Water splashed onto Bee and Sasuke hit him with a Chidori that electrocuted Bee all over, rather than just stabbing him. Shocked Suigetsu aswell.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c412/13.html Water splashes on Bee
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c412/13.html Sasuke hits him in the chest with a Chidori, the electric charge covers his whole body and brings him to his knees.

Also, no, Darui didn't get shocked by the raiton he used. My only explination is that it's because it was his own raiton that was fired out. Like how Sasuke was capable of charging his own body with raiton without harming himself when he hit himself with Chidori to diffuse Deidara's C4.

[Delbi]

I'm going to disagree with this. Water being conductive does not mean it is weak to it. A raiton jutsu vs. sution jutsu meeting head on offers no advantage to either side.

It doesn't mean it's weak to it. It means water conducts electricity, and if you shoot a suiton jutsu out of your mouth, and I fire a raiton at you of equal strength, the jutsu will clash and neither jutsu will hit us.

However, the electricity of the jutsu will run up the water and hurt you.

Same thing can happen with other jutsu. If Jiraiya shoots oil at someone, and someone shoots a katon at him, guess what, it's going to light on fire and come back and hit him.

Like this is just common sense lol.

[Rikudou King]

How does Bee have the advantage over the two natures Hashirama will be using? As mention, raiton is weak against doton and suiton would enable his lightning to be more effective. So Hashirama creating a water wall to block wouldn't work real well if Kirabi through a lightning charged weapon.

[xXan]

Was Sasuke still using his raiton sword here?
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-309-page-16.html

If he is then aparently he can't cut trough "roots". So this could be a problem for Bee.

[ricardDvs]

Was Sasuke still using his raiton sword here?
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-309-page-16.html

If he is then aparently he can't cut trough "roots". So this could be a problem for Bee.

im sure it was, you can see the raiton chakra around the blade... if he can use it i wouldnt he?... my vote went to hashirama, mokuton ninjutsu is just 2 hax... i like Bi but Shodai takes this

[Darkp]

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-308-page-8.html

Ration is efecting makuton too , you can see full body chidori wiping out woods of yamato

[Raizen]

Since we have no clue how else Hashirama controlled/suppressed Bijuu, then yes I assume that he needed to do what Yamato did. Yamato only said he needed the necklace because he was inferior to Hashirama, which means that Hashirama could suppress even without it.

I'm not assuming anything, I threw Susano'o out as one scenario. Madara could have easily had 3 other unique powers just like Kakashi's MS technique is different than Sasuke and Itachi's techniques.

An impressive feat indeed. But again we know little about the battle unfortunately... We don't know to what extent Mito helped Hashirama, and we don't know how Kyuubi was dealt with except it eventually ending up sealed in Mito due to her sealing powers.

Again there's no evidence for the full Kyuubi not being able to break Hashirama's mokuton. All we saw was one panel of Hashirama using massive amounts of wood while Kyuubi was untouched. We have no clue if Hashirama incapacitated Kyuubi, if Kyuubi was able to break loose several times or what happened at all.

Naruto was still small when using 4 and 6 tails. He was only shrouded in the Kyuubi's chakra. He was no bigger than normal before he grew the 8th tail and became large so the size doesn't seem to matter. I highly doubt Bee's not able to use Bijuudama in version 2, the guy has perfect control of Hachibi's powers in every sense of the word 'perfect'.
It would explain why sasuke has the same MS techniques as itachi. Itachi states that only until u gain EMS that u gain your own unique attack. Kakashi was a strange case since the sharingan was never his. But that is what i think

All that was stated was mito sealed the fox. There was no indication that she took part in the battle. So ultimately, it was still harashima vs madara

I would think if harashima took too much time concerned with the 9tails, it would leave him open to madara. But if he was able to contend with both that way, then more power to him

A bijuudama can still be blocked. ANd i would think an attack like that would take a lot from the user
[hr]
Something came to mind:
Rikudo split his power into 2 and passed them to his son. One gained the RS eyes and one gained his body. THe uchihas originated from the elder brother with the RK eyes and the senju originiated from the younger brother with the RK body. Both powers are what was used by RK to seal the 10-tails.

The eyes are the sharigan- which can supress a bijuu's powers
The body belonging to a senju like harashima is reflected in his chakra. Thus, his chakra has what is needed to seal a bijuu's power. So mokuton, being created from his chakra, would be capable of sealing bee's jinjuuriki powers without a necessary ritual.

[huynhlan]

That's from an earlier battle, from which we don't know of the outcome. Hashirama could very well have lost that battle because of that.

If that was the case, then it would have been mentioned that Yamato's mokuton didn't live up to Hashirama, not simply that his sealing ability didn't. And Orochimaru didn't refer to Yamato as a fail experiment. He believed it was a fail experiment because he thought that all the children died. Orochimaru didn't even learn of Yamato til their meeting on the bridge.

That's not proof at all. Yamato is clearing speaking of his ability to seal, which he directly mentions before and after. Again, if he was talking about the mokuton itself, he would have simply said so.

Not really. Every time we have seen Yamato use it on Naruto, it was a separate action. The mokuton itself did nothing to the Bijuu cloak. Yamato would use the mokuton to grab Naruto, and then begin the sealing. There's no proof that Hashirama has speed comparable to Kirabi and we saw from his fight with Sarutobi that he doesn't have physical power. Kirabi has a ton of chakra even without the Hachibi, considering he's able to form the Bijuu cloak using his own chakra. And Hashirama can't keep the Hachibi from giving kirabi chakra. He can only prevent Kiabi from using the cloak forms and that's only if he can catch Kirabi. Raiton is all Kirabi needs. Hashirama has nothing to counter it, while Kirabi has the advantage over two of the natures that Hashirama will be using. Not to mention that Hashirama would be able to do nothing against Kirabi's swordsmanship.

So you think harashima lose that battle that was show in the flashback, any prove. For all we know it could have been a tie, or harashima could have won. If harashima have lose, then that mean madara would have taken to position of the greatest ninja at that time, and would have been pick hokage over harashima, and he would not have needed the kuybi's help in fighting harashima at the end now does he, all this indicated that they mostly tie in most of their past battle or madara lost.
Also here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-13/naruto/chapter-399.html
you can see that madara got stab by sword, and I don't think harashima can stab him from a really far away distance.

And there are more envidence as for example here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-296-11/naruto/chapter-291.html
j-man said that yamato a cheap copy of harashima have the potential to control a jinchiriki, that indicated harashima can do it.
and here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-296-14/naruto/chapter-291.html
orochimaru talk about harashima bending biju to his will.

both this indicated he have power to control/supress jin. or biju.

[Rikudou King]

Was Sasuke still using his raiton sword here?
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-309-page-16.html

If he is then aparently he can't cut trough "roots". So this could be a problem for Bee. It's more like Sasuke stop paying attention and Yamato was able to use it without him countering.


So you think harashima lose that battle that was show in the flashback, any prove. For all we know it could have been a tie, or harashima could have won. If harashima have lose, then that mean madara would have taken to position of the greatest ninja at that time, and would have been pick hokage over harashima, and he would have needed the kuybi's help in fighting harashima at the end now does he, all this indicated that they mostly time in most of their battle or madara lost.
Also here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-13/naruto/chapter-399.html
you can see that madara got stab by sword, and I don't think harashima can stab him from a really far away distance.

And there are more envidence as for example here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-296-11/naruto/chapter-291.html
j-man said that yamato a cheap copy of harashima have the potential to control a jinchiriki, that indicated harashima can do it.
and here
http://www.mangareader.net/93-296-14/naruto/chapter-291.html
orochimaru talk about harashima bending biju to his will.

both this indicated he have power to control/supress jin. or biju. Not what I said at all. Without knowing the outcome, you can't assume that Hashirama was able to keep up with Madara. And no, Madara winning wouldn't have meant that, since this was why before the time of the villages and Hashirama was choose for his peaceful ways, not abilities in battle. They were considered rivals, meaning they won and lost against each other multiple times.

You realize of course that since Madara wasn't really killed, that makes that example moot. I never denied that Hashirama couldn't suppress the Hachibi. But to do so, he would have to first catch Kirabi. Once Kirabi got free against, he would be able to use the Hachibi again.

[huynhlan]

It's more like Sasuke stop paying attention and Yamato was able to use it without him countering.

Not what I said at all. Without knowing the outcome, you can't assume that Hashirama was able to keep up with Madara. And no, Madara winning wouldn't have meant that, since this was why before the time of the villages and Hashirama was choose for his peaceful ways, not abilities in battle. They were considered rivals, meaning they won and lost against each other multiple times.

You realize of course that since Madara wasn't really killed, that makes that example moot. I never denied that Hashirama couldn't suppress the Hachibi. But to do so, he would have to first catch Kirabi. Once Kirabi got free against, he would be able to use the Hachibi again.

Uh that's not moot, it show that harashima can stab him even though he posess the greatest sharigan, and we don't know what tech. he use to keep himself alive, but that's not the point, the point is this indicated harashima wasn't afraid to fight madara in close combat.
And another thing, how can bee counter agianst an entire forest without his biju power? what he going to keep spinning and try to cut his way through an ever growing forest that can attack him from all direction?

Also I stated this before weren't zetsu create using harashima dna too, that mean harashima could have the abilities like zetsu, also harashima can use shadow clone, all this give harashima the advantage.

[Rikudou King]

Uh that's not moot, it show that harashima can stab him even though he posess the greatest sharigan, and we don't know what tech. he use to keep himself alive, but that's not the point, the point is this indicated harashima wasn't afraid to fight madara in close combat.
And another thing, how can bee counter agianst an entire forest without his biju power? what he going to keep spinning and try to cut his way through an ever growing forest that can attack him from all direction?

Also I stated this before weren't zetsu create using harashima dna too, that mean harashima could have the abilities like zetsu, also harashima can use shadow clone, all this give harashima the advantage. It's moot because we don't know how they got to that point or whether Hashirama really stabbed Madara, considering he believed he had killed Madara and that wasn't the case. Kirabi wouldn't have major trouble against a growing forest. There's plenty of room for him to move and run, as we have seen.

No, Hashirama can't create Zetsu since they were specially made by Madara. And Hashirama hasn't shown the ability to use clones either.

[Raizen]

Harashima created the scroll with the mass KB jutsu, so i am sure he can use KB

[Rikudou King]

The scroll was filled with kinjutsus forbidden and sealed away by Hashirama. That doesn't mean he could preform them himself.

[huynhlan]

first of all the scroll belond to him, and he seal it away, it;s not like he find the scroll somwhere, and so it doesn't make any sense for him not being able to use jutsu he wrote in that scroll.

Secondly about madara what do you mean we don't know how they get to the stage of the stabbing, it's not like madara stab himself now does he. The fact is we don't know much about the fight so we are basically using what we know, and from the picture madara got stab, and he was fighting harashima, that mean 80% chance he got stab by harashima, and again we don't know what he use to fake his death.

Also zetsu were create by madara using harashima's dna(if I remeber correcly) that mean harashima have zetsu's abilities too now right.

And you do realize as long as there are soil tree can grow, and with harashima's power he could make a tree grow out anywhere, so I don't think bee will have much space, and the fact that it grow anywhere make it harder for bee to defend, and dude don't make it sound easy fighting against an forest, it's not a single tree here.

[Lelo]

U know taming a Bijuu is one thing, taming a jinchuuriki is a whole other thing. I really want to say the 1st would take this cause he tamed the Kyuubi so he should be able to tame Hachibi but Bee is the perfect jinchuuriki who also has lighting jutsus. This is a hard one. If I say Bee will win does that mean he can beat Madara too, cause the 1st did. Idk, I wanna know what forbidden jutsus the 1st knew cause I know he knew some. But I think Ill say Bee takes this. We need to know more of the 1st's arsenal of jutsus.

[Raizen]

Mokuton doesn't tame the bijuu, it seals it away. So if he used on a jinjuuriki, the bijuu power would be unusable by bee

[Katz]

WOW....I expected 1st hokage to win but didn't expect such a huge difference in votes.....hmmm will 1st hokage turn into an Aizen/Yammato character much like the bleach torney....we shall see

[Lelo]

Mokuton doesn't tame the bijuu, it seals it away. So if he used on a jinjuuriki, the bijuu power would be unusable by bee

well if thats true then Bees done for. But is that true, I didnt know that

[Rikudou King]

first of all the scroll belond to him, and he seal it away, it;s not like he find the scroll somwhere, and so it doesn't make any sense for him not being able to use jutsu he wrote in that scroll.

Secondly about madara what do you mean we don't know how they get to the stage of the stabbing, it's not like madara stab himself now does he. The fact is we don't know much about the fight so we are basically using what we know, and from the picture madara got stab, and he was fighting harashima, that mean 80% chance he got stab by harashima, and again we don't know what he use to fake his death.

Also zetsu were create by madara using harashima's dna(if I remeber correcly) that mean harashima have zetsu's abilities too now right.

And you do realize as long as there are soil tree can grow, and with harashima's power he could make a tree grow out anywhere, so I don't think bee will have much space, and the fact that it grow anywhere make it harder for bee to defend, and dude don't make it sound easy fighting against an forest, it's not a single tree here. No, it was a scroll in which Hashirama collected all the forbidden techniques and sealed away. That's different from a personal technique scroll.

We have no idea how Madara got stabbed or whether it was the actual Madara. Hashirama could very well have allowed a mutual strike to achieve the hit. And not knowing how Madara survive brings doubt as to how well Hashirama did. The Zetsu were specially created. Madara made them using a certain method. Hashirama wouldn't likely be able to replicate such a thing. We saw in the fight with Sarutobi that their was plenty of space between the trees. It's not as if the trees themselves will be attacking.

[Raizen]

well if thats true then Bees done for. But is that true, I didnt know that
I think he can supress their power then he can bend them to his will
[hr]
The mods are pretty slow. THese threads should be closed by now and new ones should be opened

[Rikudou King]

The winner is Hashirama!