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Fuji Shusuke
April 17, 2011, 01:44 AM
This is the thread where we put two techniques and see which would beat the other. It requires logical analysis and no biased opinions. The techs put forward also have the character stated because another player might have a different variation of the tech. The tech battle cannot have been in the manga or anime.

First: Atobe's Hametsu e no Rondo vs. Fuji's Higuma Otoshi

Kaoz
April 17, 2011, 03:13 AM
Maybe to get things started... Shiraishi managed to knock Fuji's racket away with a regular smash vs Higmua Otoshi. Shiraishi has a 3.5 in both Power and Technique, whereas Atobe has a 4 in Power and a 3.5 in Technique, so Atobe's stats are slightly better here.

Not saying that that's all there is to it, but it should be taken into consideration.

On a side note, when is a battle over? When no one has anything to add for a specific amount of time? Maybe you want to add a poll?

FrostyMouse
April 17, 2011, 09:17 AM
Maybe to get things started... Shiraishi managed to knock Fuji's racket away with a regular smash vs Higmua Otoshi. Shiraishi has a 3.5 in both Power and Technique, whereas Atobe has a 4 in Power and a 3.5 in Technique, so Atobe's stats are slightly better here.

Not saying that that's all there is to it, but it should be taken into consideration.

On a side note, when is a battle over? When no one has anything to add for a specific amount of time? Maybe you want to add a poll?

Chaos, I'm not even sure if it's just that, especially because Shiraishi's Bible has particular effect against Fuji's basic triple counters. Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away, so...

We never see normal or demon Kirihara knock the racket out of Fuji's hand, not even when using Fire. All that happens is that a hole is blown in Fuji's gut, but Fuji still returns the ball without losing his grip on the racket and then proceeds to return Fire with the side of his racket. However, during the Fuji vs Kirihara match, we also learned that if a smash comes from a short enough distance, Fuji can't use Higuma Otoshi to return it, as evidenced by Kirihara hitting him in the head and temporarily blinding him.

Hametsu e no Rondo works by knocking the racket away by being aimed at the grip. Tezuka can overcome the first smash by using Tezuka Zone to return the ball with the face of the racket; Fuji doesn't have such a move to alter the path of Hametsu e no Rondo.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/150/om/12/ It technically doesn't state that Tezuka uses the Tezuka Zone for the first shot, but as he's using it for the second smash, and no one else is able to alter the path of the first smash, I'm assuming that it's Tezuka Zone.

If the Hamestu e no Rondo were aimed straight at Fuji's hand, in a manner similar to how Kirihara smashes, I believe that Fuji's racket would be blown out of his hand without Fuji being able to use Higuma Otoshi. However, if Fuji was farther back in the court and attempted to use Higuma Otoshi, I believe that he'd be able to return it.

I think that it's mainly dependent on the distance between Atobe and Fuji. So, I'm saying it's 50/50.

However, I will go out on a limb and say that Kirin Otoshi would be able to return Hametsu e no Rondo 100% of the time. I'm going to say that if Atobe had the Shitsui e no Fugue, even though I think Fuji would be able to return the Hamestu e no Rondo with Kirin Otoshi, he wouldn't be able to return Shitsui e no Fugue.

Kaoz
April 17, 2011, 12:03 PM
Chaos, I'm not even sure if it's just that, especially because Shiraishi's Bible has particular effect against Fuji's basic triple counters. Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away, so...

What effect are you refering to exactly?

Also, even though we didn't get to see his stat sheet, I think it's safe to assume that Tachibana's Power stat is pretty high (probably at least a 4).


We never see normal or demon Kirihara knock the racket out of Fuji's hand, not even when using Fire. All that happens is that a hole is blown in Fuji's gut, but Fuji still returns the ball without losing his grip on the racket and then proceeds to return Fire with the side of his racket. However, during the Fuji vs Kirihara match, we also learned that if a smash comes from a short enough distance, Fuji can't use Higuma Otoshi to return it, as evidenced by Kirihara hitting him in the head and temporarily blinding him.

Kirihara's smash probably didn't knock the racket away because his Power is only 2.5, and that's for the selection camp, in Kanto it might have been a 2.5 in Bloodshot Mode.

You're probably right about the distance thing though.


Hametsu e no Rondo works by knocking the racket away by being aimed at the grip. Tezuka can overcome the first smash by using Tezuka Zone to return the ball with the face of the racket; Fuji doesn't have such a move to alter the path of Hametsu e no Rondo.

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/150/om/12/ It technically doesn't state that Tezuka uses the Tezuka Zone for the first shot, but as he's using it for the second smash, and no one else is able to alter the path of the first smash, I'm assuming that it's Tezuka Zone.

Either that or the anime is actually correct about something and he lowered his racket slightly, which is something Fuji might be able to replicate.


If the Hamestu e no Rondo were aimed straight at Fuji's hand, in a manner similar to how Kirihara smashes, I believe that Fuji's racket would be blown out of his hand without Fuji being able to use Higuma Otoshi. However, if Fuji was farther back in the court and attempted to use Higuma Otoshi, I believe that he'd be able to return it.

I think that it's mainly dependent on the distance between Atobe and Fuji. So, I'm saying it's 50/50.

In that case, Atobe could simply avoid Higuma Otoshi by aiming into the front court like Shiraishi did, but I guess we don't care about that here.

That being said, Hametsu e no Rondo is meant to hit the grip with the first smash, which is probably not doable when Fuji prepares for Higuma Otoshi by repositioning. Assuming he can hit the grip, I'd say he could knock Fuji's racket away, regardless of distance.


However, I will go out on a limb and say that Kirin Otoshi would be able to return Hametsu e no Rondo 100% of the time. I'm going to say that if Atobe had the Shitsui e no Fugue, even though I think Fuji would be able to return the Hamestu e no Rondo with Kirin Otoshi, he wouldn't be able to return Shitsui e no Fugue.

I agree that Houou Gaeshi could probably return the first part of Hametsu e no Rondo, but as the first parts of Rondo and Fugue are identical, I don't see why it wouldn't work against that too (just to clarify, I'm only adressing the first part here where Atobe tries to hit the opponent's grip).

FrostyMouse
April 17, 2011, 04:14 PM
What effect are you refering to exactly?

Also, even though we didn't get to see his stat sheet, I think it's safe to assume that Tachibana's Power stat is pretty high (probably at least a 4).

What I mean is that Shiraishi's tennis is very clean (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/314/om/12/), and the first forms of the triple counters all have obvious weaknesses (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/316/om/6/), which the exactitude of the Bible can take advantage of. However, the evolved forms of the Triple Counters all defeat the Bible because they lack the same weaknesses.

I'll agree that Tachibana has a Power of at least 3.5, which is what Shiraishi has, at the minimum. It's fair to say that Tachibana probably has a Power of at least 4 as he does play a bit of power tennis to some degree.


Kirihara's smash probably didn't knock the racket away because his Power is only 2.5, and that's for the selection camp, in Kanto it might have been a 2.5 in Bloodshot Mode.

You're probably right about the distance thing though.

So, for the purposes of this, is it fair to say that it requires a Power of at least 3.5 to blow the racket out of Fuji's hand when he's using Higuma Otoshi?

When Shiraishi takes off the golden gauntlet, all of his stats increase, so in reality, Shiraishi has a Power of 3.5 with the gauntlet on, but at least 4 or 4.5 Power with the gauntlet off.

Atobe has a Power of 3.5 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/42/mf/1/), which, if Shiraishi's example can be accepted, would mean that Atobe could defeat Higuma Otoshi regardless of whether he hits the grip or Fuji uses Higuma Otoshi.

I guess it depends on whether you want to say that it's the Bible which allows Shiraishi to defeat Higuma Otoshi, or whether it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 or higher that's required to defeat Higuma Otoshi.

Tezuka has a Power of 3.5 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/37/mf/0/) (therefore so does Niou's illusion of Tezuka), and instead of using Higuma Otoshi against Niou, Fuji uses Kirin Otoshi (http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/11/), so that does give credence to the idea that it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 that's required to knock away Higuma Otoshi.

If that is truly the case, however, then you have to ask why when Tezuka took Hametsu e no Rondo on the face of his racket, his racket wasn't blown away. It could be as simple as Tezuka's grip power is stronger than Fuji's, and the lack of grip power is the reason that Kirihara can't use Wind. (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/222/om/12/)

Actually, when Kirihara uses Fire (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/222/om/8/), he's not even in Bloodshot Mode (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/220/om/15/).

So, you can't really pin down the Power stat he has when using Bloodshot Mode.


Either that or the anime is actually correct about something and he lowered his racket slightly, which is something Fuji might be able to replicate.

It could be. If Tezuka actually lowered his racket slightly, then Fuji could probably replicate it. I'm sure that Yukimura would have a method of returning Hametsu e no Rondo; it might be the bottom of the handle thing he used to return Rai. (http://somemanga.com/manga/New_Prince_of_Tennis/8/9/)


In that case, Atobe could simply avoid Higuma Otoshi by aiming into the front court like Shiraishi did, but I guess we don't care about that here.

That being said, Hametsu e no Rondo is meant to hit the grip with the first smash, which is probably not doable when Fuji prepares for Higuma Otoshi by repositioning. Assuming he can hit the grip, I'd say he could knock Fuji's racket away, regardless of distance.

If he avoided Higuma Otoshi, then Fuji might not even touch the ball, but we're not worrying about, I suppose. If Atobe can hit the grip, yeah, he can knock Fuji's racket away. However, if Fuji gets into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance, it's not really clear if Atobe could hit the grip.


I agree that Houou Gaeshi could probably return the first part of Hametsu e no Rondo, but as the first parts of Rondo and Fugue are identical, I don't see why it wouldn't work against that too (just to clarify, I'm only adressing the first part here where Atobe tries to hit the opponent's grip).

Chaos, it's Kirin Otoshi. :P

I wasn't clear. I was calling the first part of Fugue the Rondo, as in just Rondo, the second part's just a regular smash. The Fugue would be hard for anyone to return.

Atobe's speed is 3 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/42/mf/1/), and Tezuka's speed is 3 (http://somemanga.com[/URL]/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/37/mf/0/), and Niou's illusion of Tezuka is able to get back in time to return Hakuryuu (http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/). That would imply to me that it would be possible to return Higuma Otoshi without something such as the Shukuchiho (or however it's spelled). Niou's illusion of Tezuka just uses Tezuka Zone to return Kirin Otoshi.

In the end, it's not as if Atobe uses the Hametsu e no Rondo to win a match or anything, it's more used to demoralize an opponent. In a match between Fuji and Atobe, it would depend on whether Closed Eyes can defeat World of Ice and/or Atobe Kingdom, and whether or not Atobe could find a way to counter Hecatoncheires and Hoshi Hanabi, not whether Higuma/Kirin Otoshi could defeat Hametsu e no Rondo.

Kaoz
April 17, 2011, 05:31 PM
What I mean is that Shiraishi's tennis is very clean (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/314/om/12/), and the first forms of the triple counters all have obvious weaknesses (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/316/om/6/), which the exactitude of the Bible can take advantage of. However, the evolved forms of the Triple Counters all defeat the Bible because they lack the same weaknesses.

I see, I thought you were refering to something that only affects the Triple Counters, my bad.


So, for the purposes of this, is it fair to say that it requires a Power of at least 3.5 to blow the racket out of Fuji's hand when he's using Higuma Otoshi?

Not necessarily at least 3.5, as we didn't see anyone with a 3 try it yet, but I think we can agree on that it's possible with a 3.5.


When Shiraishi takes off the golden gauntlet, all of his stats increase, so in reality, Shiraishi has a Power of 3.5 with the gauntlet on, but at least 4 or 4.5 Power with the gauntlet off.

Atobe has a Power of 3.5 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/42/mf/1/), which, if Shiraishi's example can be accepted, would mean that Atobe could defeat Higuma Otoshi regardless of whether he hits the grip or Fuji uses Higuma Otoshi.

I guess it depends on whether you want to say that it's the Bible which allows Shiraishi to defeat Higuma Otoshi, or whether it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 or higher that's required to defeat Higuma Otoshi.

He didn't hit any specific spot or anything as far as I can see, and as Tachibana used the same method to counter Higuma Otoshi, I think it's safe to say that power is one way to counter it. Even if the ball were to return (it's not entirely clear against Shiraishi I think), Hametsu e no Rondo is a 2 part smash, so that wouldn't be a problem.


Tezuka has a Power of 3.5 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/37/mf/0/) (therefore so does Niou's illusion of Tezuka), and instead of using Higuma Otoshi against Niou, Fuji uses Kirin Otoshi (http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/11/), so that does give credence to the idea that it's merely possessing a Power of 3.5 that's required to knock away Higuma Otoshi.

I don't really want to get into Illusion right now, but I wouldn't assume that Niou can copy stats with it (we discussed Illusion some time ago on JAC, I can show you a summary if you want).


If that is truly the case, however, then you have to ask why when Tezuka took Hametsu e no Rondo on the face of his racket, his racket wasn't blown away. It could be as simple as Tezuka's grip power is stronger than Fuji's, and the lack of grip power is the reason that Kirihara can't use Wind. (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/222/om/12/)

It doesn't seem far-fetched to assume that Tezuka has a stronger grip than Fuji.


Actually, when Kirihara uses Fire (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/222/om/8/), he's not even in Bloodshot Mode (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/220/om/15/).

So, you can't really pin down the Power stat he has when using Bloodshot Mode.

Thanks, I was too lazy to check that one. What I was trying to say is that even though Kirihara's power was displayed as 2.5, it might have been lower in Kanto, so that depending on how much BM increases it, it was probably still lower than 3.5.


If he avoided Higuma Otoshi, then Fuji might not even touch the ball, but we're not worrying about, I suppose. If Atobe can hit the grip, yeah, he can knock Fuji's racket away. However, if Fuji gets into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance, it's not really clear if Atobe could hit the grip.

Agreed.


Chaos, it's Kirin Otoshi. :P

>_>;;


Atobe's speed is 3 (http://somemanga.com/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/42/mf/1/), and Tezuka's speed is 3 (http://somemanga.com[/URL]/alt/New_Prince_of_Tennis/37/mf/0/), and Niou's illusion of Tezuka is able to get back in time to return Hakuryuu (http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/). That would imply to me that it would be possible to return Higuma Otoshi without something such as the Shukuchiho (or however it's spelled). Niou's illusion of Tezuka just uses Tezuka Zone to return Kirin Otoshi.

First of all, I think that's supposed to be Hakugei...

Secondly, Niou is hitting it while it's rising, which would imply that he's still pretty close to the net. The Speed needed to return Kirin Otoshi is probably at least 4 or 4.5.


In the end, it's not as if Atobe uses the Hametsu e no Rondo to win a match or anything, it's more used to demoralize an opponent. In a match between Fuji and Atobe, it would depend on whether Closed Eyes can defeat World of Ice and/or Atobe Kingdom, and whether or not Atobe could find a way to counter Hecatoncheires and Hoshi Hanabi, not whether Higuma/Kirin Otoshi could defeat Hametsu e no Rondo.

Yeah.

FrostyMouse
April 17, 2011, 07:04 PM
I see, I thought you were refering to something that only affects the Triple Counters, my bad.

It's not as if Shiraishi's the only one whose tennis is effective at exploiting the weaknesses in the original Triple Counters, or returning them, but his style is just very effective against the original Triple Counters. Shiraishi's unable to return any of the evolved Triple Counters.


Not necessarily at least 3.5, as we didn't see anyone with a 3 try it yet, but I think we can agree on that it's possible with a 3.5.

All right.


He didn't hit any specific spot or anything as far as I can see, and as Tachibana used the same method to counter Higuma Otoshi, I think it's safe to say that power is one way to counter it. Even if the ball were to return (it's not entirely clear against Shiraishi I think), Hametsu e no Rondo is a 2 part smash, so that wouldn't be a problem.

That's more or less how I saw it. With a Power of 3.5, although the racket is blown away, Fuji still returns the ball with Higuma Otoshi, but as you said, that wouldn't be a problem for Hametsu e no Rondo.


I don't really want to get into Illusion right now, but I wouldn't assume that Niou can copy stats with it (we discussed Illusion some time ago on JAC, I can show you a summary if you want).

I think I'd read that discussion once, but I still disagree at least to some extent. Niou would need a boost in Technique in order to be able to utilize the Tezuka Zone and Zero-Shiki Drop shot. Sure, he doesn't have the ability to use the Zero-Shiki Serve, so it's not as if he's a perfect copy, but I think that he gets some boost to his stats.


It doesn't seem far-fetched to assume that Tezuka has a stronger grip than Fuji.

It would seem to make sense.


Thanks, I was too lazy to check that one. What I was trying to say is that even though Kirihara's power was displayed as 2.5, it might have been lower in Kanto, so that depending on how much BM increases it, it was probably still lower than 3.5.

Yeah, it's probably less than 3.5, plus as the Muga was draining his stamina, his power might have decreased even more.


First of all, I think that's supposed to be Hakugei...

Secondly, Niou is hitting it while it's rising, which would imply that he's still pretty close to the net. The Speed needed to return Kirin Otoshi is probably at least 4 or 4.5.

Well, it may actually supposed to have been Hakugei, but the translation says that it's Hakuryuu, so I was going with the translation on that one. :)

http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/9/
http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/

Well, I interpreted that panel as Niou jumping backward and that the Hakuryuu has started to fall. The ball on the right is higher than the ball to the left of it, so I interpreted that as falling, and if the ball was still rising at that point, it would be too high for Niou to hit.

Kaoz
April 18, 2011, 02:21 AM
Well, it may actually supposed to have been Hakugei, but the translation says that it's Hakuryuu, so I was going with the translation on that one. :)

http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/9/
http://somemanga.com/manga/Prince_of_Tennis/360/10/

Well, I interpreted that panel as Niou jumping backward and that the Hakuryuu has started to fall. The ball on the right is higher than the ball to the left of it, so I interpreted that as falling, and if the ball was still rising at that point, it would be too high for Niou to hit.

Yeah, that's possible. I remembered Hakuryuu having a slightly different course at the beginning, but I think I was mistaken there, my bad.

Fuji Shusuke
April 18, 2011, 04:58 AM
So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?

FrostyMouse
April 18, 2011, 08:04 AM
So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?

Yeah, that's what I'd say.

Kaoz
April 18, 2011, 09:57 AM
So is this a tie? 50-50 chance of returning?

I'd go with a slight advantage for Hametu e no Rondo, like 60% or 65% chance of success. But if you want to list it as a tie, I won't argue against that.

FrostyMouse
April 18, 2011, 10:30 AM
I'd go with a slight advantage for Hametu e no Rondo, like 60% or 65% chance of success. But if you want to list it as a tie, I won't argue against that.

Hmm, that is fair, I suppose, because there is the possibility that Atobe would just be able to blow Fuji's racket away.

At the very least, there's no clear winner.

FujiNumberOne
April 18, 2011, 05:51 PM
Hmm, I seem to have come in rather late XD But I think you two might be placing a little bit too much stock by the ratings given. Just because Atobe has a 3.5 Power stat doesn't mean every single shot is at that kind of power. His Hametsu e no Rondo isn't a smash that relies on power, but on accuracy to knock the racket out of the hand.

And we can't simply say that 3.5 Power players+ can break Higuma Otoshi. I mean, when Ryoma first played Fuji, and tried to smash it, Momoshiro said that even his Dunk Smash wouldn't work on Fuji because of Higuma Otoshi. And I think it's safe to say that the Dunk Smash is a more powerful than Hametsu e no Rondo (or at least the first part). So I think it's also safe to say that it's not just pure power that breaks Higuma Otoshi. Maybe Shiraishi's smash also had a good top spin on it to make it an extremely heavy ball as well, and that with the power of it as well made it blow the racket away.

Bowser
April 18, 2011, 07:36 PM
I cba to read the previous long posts, but surely Hametsu e no Rondo hits the wrist (which is definitely not Fuji's sweetspot), so Hametsu e no Rondo wins?

FrostyMouse
April 18, 2011, 08:47 PM
Hmm, I seem to have come in rather late XD But I think you two might be placing a little bit too much stock by the ratings given. Just because Atobe has a 3.5 Power stat doesn't mean every single shot is at that kind of power. His Hametsu e no Rondo isn't a smash that relies on power, but on accuracy to knock the racket out of the hand.

And we can't simply say that 3.5 Power players+ can break Higuma Otoshi. I mean, when Ryoma first played Fuji, and tried to smash it, Momoshiro said that even his Dunk Smash wouldn't work on Fuji because of Higuma Otoshi. And I think it's safe to say that the Dunk Smash is a more powerful than Hametsu e no Rondo (or at least the first part). So I think it's also safe to say that it's not just pure power that breaks Higuma Otoshi. Maybe Shiraishi's smash also had a good top spin on it to make it an extremely heavy ball as well, and that with the power of it as well made it blow the racket away.

Just because Hametsu e no Rondo is an accurate smash doesn't mean that it's not powerful. There are plenty of instances in the series where there are accurate powerfully hit shots.

We weren't at all saying that just because Shiraishi knocked the racket out of Fuji's hand while using Higuma Otoshi meant that every shot a player who has 3.5+ Power will be at the level. We were saying that it appeared to be one possibility to defeat Higuma Otoshi.

When Ryoma first plays Fuji, Momoshiro hadn't leveled up all that much, so he might not have had 3.5+ Power at that point. At this point in the series, yes, Momoshiro clearly has over 3.5 Power, but that's not what matters.

Seeing as the Bible can accurately target the weaknesses of the original Triple Counters, it's a possibility that it could be Shiraishi that is extra effective. However, what you're ignoring is that Tachibana also knocks Fuji's racket away when Fuji's using Higuma Otoshi; admittedly, Tachibana does seem to play with heavy top spin.

It's not as if we said Atobe's winning this battle. We just said that it was probably 50/50, with a possible slight edge to Atobe. Plus, Kirin Otoshi almost certainly dominates Hametsu e no Rondo.


I cba to read the previous long posts, but surely Hametsu e no Rondo hits the wrist (which is definitely not Fuji's sweetspot), so Hametsu e no Rondo wins?

Well, the idea I came up with is that if Hametsu e no Rondo comes from a short enough distance (akin to how Kirihara smashes Fuji in the head, which implies that Higuma Otoshi requires Fuji to be a certain distance away from the opponent), Atobe would probably be able to hit Fuji's grip. However, if Fuji were far enough back in the court, he'd probably be able to get into the Higuma Otoshi position/stance and return Hametsu e no Rondo.

FujiNumberOne
April 18, 2011, 11:59 PM
But if you say that maybe Momoshiro hadn't evolved his Dunk Smash to 3.5+ yet, you can make the same argument for Fuji's Higuma Otoshi. And like you said, Tachibana plays with heavy top spin, and top spin makes balls heavier and harder to deal with.

And also, I wasn't saying that Atobe's first part must not be powerful because it's accurate. I'm just saying it seems to sacrifice power for accuracy (in this case), because no players seems to be too injured by it despite multiple uses, and Tezuka was able to return it since he got his racket face on it (with seemingly no effects on his grip), despite his hurt shoulder. So I would assume that a move that uses centripetal force to nullify power would also be able to return it.

I agree that it's not a clear cut 100% to 0%, but I would give the edge to Fuji, about 65% or 70%.

@Bowser: It doesn't hit the opponent's hand, it hits the racket handle close to the hand. If it hit the opponent's hand, there would be no need for the second part, because if a player is hit by the ball, it's automatically the other person's point.

FrostyMouse
April 19, 2011, 01:49 AM
But if you say that maybe Momoshiro hadn't evolved his Dunk Smash to 3.5+ yet, you can make the same argument for Fuji's Higuma Otoshi. And like you said, Tachibana plays with heavy top spin, and top spin makes balls heavier and harder to deal with.

No, I don't see what you're saying there. Higuma Otoshi never improves throughout the series; instead, a new move, Kirin Otoshi, is created. It's not as if Higuma Otoshi's weakness to Echizen's cord ball smash is removed. It's likely that Kirin Otoshi, as it uses two hands instead of one, removes that liability, but as of SPoT, Echizen could just use PoP to defeat all of Fuji's counters, thereby not showing whether or not Kirin Otoshi possessed the same weakness as Higuma Otoshi.

Momoshiro's Dunk Smash clearly improves in power throughout the series. When Tezuka plays Momo, he talks about how Momo now has strength and power in his jump, and if you remember the St. Rudolph match, Momo's Dunk Smash has clearly powered up as he knocks out Yanagisawa. The Fuji vs Ryoma match occurs after that, so Momo wouldn't be aware of whether he could power through Higuma Otoshi or not.


And also, I wasn't saying that Atobe's first part must not be powerful because it's accurate. I'm just saying it seems to sacrifice power for accuracy (in this case), because no players seems to be too injured by it despite multiple uses, and Tezuka was able to return it since he got his racket face on it (with seemingly no effects on his grip), despite his hurt shoulder. So I would assume that a move that uses centripetal force to nullify power would also be able to return it.

Maybe, but did you read the previous discussion Chaos and I had? We addressed this issue. We came to a conclusion that Tezuka probably has greater grip strength than Fuji. Just read the previous posts as I didn't feel like re-quoting and explaining it.


I agree that it's not a clear cut 100% to 0%, but I would give the edge to Fuji, about 65% or 70%.

That's cool. It hasn't been shown if Kirin Otoshi possesses the same distance weakness that Higuma Otoshi has; if it doesn't, Hametsu e no Rondo is completely ineffective against Fuji, but for the purposes of this, I'm not willing to give Fuji more than 50%.

Kaoz
April 19, 2011, 03:03 AM
Just to add to the part about Momoshiro, remember that he was able to knock away Oshitari's racket when Oshitari used Higuma Otoshi in the Nationals.

Also, if we assume Shiraishi was able to knock Fuji's racket away only because of Bible, and that one would normally need more power than that, Atobe's Insight should have the same effect.

Apart from this, I think FrostyMouse covered everything I would have said.

Fuji Shusuke
April 19, 2011, 11:48 AM
So based on all CURRENT information, Atobe's Hametsu e no Rondo has a 65% approximate chance of breaking through Fuji's Higuma Otoshi.

Next discussion:
Kawamura's Final Hadoukyuu vs Sanada's Quiet like the Forest

FujiNumberOne
April 19, 2011, 03:42 PM
I did read your conversation before hand, but I think it's kind of unfair just to assume that Tezuka has stronger grip strength, especially considering that his shoulder was being pressured throughout that entire game. And when you compare Fuji using a move that nullifies power by using centripetal force and Tezuka taking the smash head-on, it seems much more likely that Fuji would be able to keep hold on his racket. So I think that if Tezuka could, then Fuji would be able to as well.

I do think that chaos brings up a good point about Atobe's insight though. Atobe could see through the weakness of Higuma Otoshi, but would he be able to use Hametsu e no Rondo to take advantage of that weakness? I'm willing to personally bring it back to an even 50/50, but I don't think that Hametsu e no Rondo should have a greater percentage. But oh well, I seem to have been defeated in this one.

I'll have to get farther in my re-reading of the series for Kawamura's FH and Sanada's QLTF. I can't completely remember about QLTF, but didn't the original Hadoukyuu creator say that FH was stronger than his highest level Hadoukyuu? I can't remember for sure.

Kaoz
April 19, 2011, 04:08 PM
Next discussion:
Kawamura's Final Hadoukyuu vs Sanada's Quiet like the Forest


I'll have to get farther in my re-reading of the series for Kawamura's FH and Sanada's QLTF. I can't completely remember about QLTF, but didn't the original Hadoukyuu creator say that FH was stronger than his highest level Hadoukyuu? I can't remember for sure.

Not exactly, Gin said it was different from Hadokyuu and that's why he couldn't neutralize it. He didn't say whether it was stronger than the 108th level though, that was only in the anime iirc.

That being said, I think naming it Final Hadokyuu when it's actually something different is a bit misleading, so anyone has an idea for a different name?

Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

Fuji Shusuke
April 19, 2011, 09:09 PM
Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

I'm not sure if this happened in the manga but Rin in the anime couldn't absorb the subtle Tezuka Zone spin. So you could say Rin only works with high levels of power and spin. I might be wrong though.

Kaoz
April 20, 2011, 06:32 AM
I'm not sure if this happened in the manga but Rin in the anime couldn't absorb the subtle Tezuka Zone spin. So you could say Rin only works with high levels of power and spin. I might be wrong though.

It didn't, in the manga Tezuka stopped using TZone after Sanada destroyed his gut with Rai (2nd or 3rd game).

FrostyMouse
April 22, 2011, 09:06 AM
Not exactly, Gin said it was different from Hadokyuu and that's why he couldn't neutralize it. He didn't say whether it was stronger than the 108th level though, that was only in the anime iirc.

That being said, I think naming it Final Hadokyuu when it's actually something different is a bit misleading, so anyone has an idea for a different name?

Regarding the actual discussion... I don't really know. On the one hand, the serve has a ridiculous amount of power, but on the other hand, Rin was able to negate all the spin on TPhantom (which is also pretty ridiculous), so I'm not sure how much power it could absorb.

Yeah, that's only in the anime. In the manga, Gin says that it's as strong as his 40th style, and then stops speaking, and then says that it's not a Hadokyuu.

It's all explained in Chapter 331 (http://somemangas.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/).

http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/6/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/7/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/8/
http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/9/

Inui explains that it's not a Hadokyuu, so Gin couldn't neutralize it. (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/331/om/12/)

Honestly, I don't think that this is even a good matchup. As Tezuka doesn't use any "power shots" in his match with Sanada, you're never able to see the extent of what Forest can do.

Renji describes that Forest utterly defeats him (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/226/om/4/), which raises a real question about Sanada's true power. Without Forest, Renji's comment almost makes it appear as if he'd beat Sanada.

Fire's attacks crush Kirihara and Atobe's tennis can't beat the defense of Mountain (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/226/om/5/).

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that there's enough use of either the "Final Hadokyuu" or Rin in order to actually have this discussion. I think that Sanada would probably just use Fire to counter the Final Hadokyuu, not Rin. It's only when Yukimura tells Sanada to will he use Rin in a head-on challenge, which Kawamura would present with the FH.

Rin's effective against Renji for whatever reason, but I won't even give a number for whether Rin can defeat FH. The "logic" of PoT would say that Rin should be able to defeat FH because Sanada's techniques are on such a high level, but in an actual match, who knows. In order to break Kawamura's serve (in truth, to get even one point off of Kawamura's serve), Sanada would need to be able to return the FH. Due to the fact that Sanada is a much higher tier player than Kawamura, Sanada finds some method to return it, even if it's the KaRinRai combo move that he uses to return the Zero-Shiki Serve.

Fuji Shusuke
April 22, 2011, 01:06 PM
So we have no outcome for this due to a lack of information. I think this one might work.
Next discussion:
Tezuka's Tezuka Phantom vs. Fuji's Fifth Counter: Hecatoncheires no Monban

FrostyMouse
April 22, 2011, 05:01 PM
Hecatoncheires doesn't need to aim for a corner in an attempt to beat Tezuka off the court, it just lands in the middle of the court, sort of like Rin, so I don't think Tezuka Phantom could direct the ball out of the court that easily.

However, Niou's Illusion of Tezuka is able to hit a ball for a clean winner without touching the net against Hecatoncheires (http://somemanga.com/alt/Prince_of_Tennis/362/om/8/), which would mean that if Niou's imperfect Illusion can break Hecatoncheires, so could the real Tezuka. In that case, Tezuka wouldn't use Phantom to counter Hecatoncheires as he can just hit it over the net.

Ignoring that, and ignoring PoP Tezuka vs Fuji, I think that Hecatoncheires beats Tezuka Phantom.

I just find that this comparison wouldn't have a chance of taking place, and even if one technique beats another, characters do have a stable of techniques for a reason, after all. If Hecatoncheires does beat Tezuka Phantom, Tezuka could just switch to attempting to hit it over the net, which we know that he's capable of.

Fuji Shusuke
April 23, 2011, 01:44 AM
In that case, Tezuka wouldn't use Phantom to counter Hecatoncheires as he can just hit it over the net.

What if Tezuka uses Phantom then, Fuji uses Fifth Counter? That seems a little more likely.

FrostyMouse
April 23, 2011, 07:26 AM
What if Tezuka uses Phantom then, Fuji uses Fifth Counter? That seems a little more likely.

Hmm...

I think it depends where on the court Fuji hits Hecatoncheires. Sanada's Rin, although it's not clear what it actually does, only goes a tiny bit into the court; it's hit very short. TPhantom pulls out Rai and GUYU pretty easily, but both of those shots go to the edge of the court, so it wouldn't be that difficult. I seriously doubt if TPhantom can pull out a shot that's hit like Rin. I don't think TPhantom can pull out a drop shot or one of Fuji's cord ball drops. I theorize that TPhantom needs space to work with.

TPhantom might be able to pull Hecatoncheires out of the court, as it goes to the middle of the court, so it wouldn't be that hard. I'd give TPhantom a 65% chance of pulling out Hecatoncheires.

FujiNumberOne
April 23, 2011, 10:35 PM
FrostyMouse, I'm kind of confused. It seems like you're arguing for Hecatoncheires, but then you say Tezuka Phantom has the upper hand...

I'm kind of giving it a 50/50, but not for the regular reasons. I'm not saying that TPhantom has 50% chance of pushing Hecatoncheires out of the court. I think it actually has a very low chance. Hecatoncheires is a technique that pretty much puts a piss ton of spin on the ball. TPhantom works the same way. So if Tezuka hits TPhantom, the ball has a certain spin on it that would force most shots out. But then Fuji puts a ton of slice on the ball, and I think that would do enough to cancel out the TPhantom spin enough to get the ball in the court.

But, like I said, it's kind of 50/50. The reason I'm saying that is because with most of Hecatoncheires's spin being used to cancel out TPhantom's spin, the ball might go in, but I don't think it will have enough spin on it anymore to force it into the net. So I think Hecatoncheires would basically just be a way to break TPhantom, not a way to win the point. That's why I'm going with 50/50.

FrostyMouse
April 23, 2011, 11:44 PM
:)

I firmly believe that Hecatoncheires is a better technique than TPhantom as it doesn't kill your arm like TPhantom does; however, good enough players, such as Tezuka, can hit the ball cleanly over the net against Hecatoncheires without creating a cord ball. Technically, you only get to see Niou's Illusion of Tezuka doing that, but as Niou's Illusion can, obviously Tezuka can.

What I'm truly saying is that based on how Tezuka and Fuji play, if Tezuka uses TPhantom, I can't really see Fuji using Hecatoncheires; I'd see him more using a cord ball drop or something, or possibly Kagerou Zutsumi. In actuality, TPhantom pulls out GUYU, and it's hit to roughly the same part of the court as Hecatoncheires is, and GUYU's ball sort of dies as it is.

If Fuji used Hecatoncheires, and then Tezuka returned it with TPhantom, Tezuka's ball will cross the net, and then Fuji needs to make a return. If Tezuka uses TPhantom, and then Fuji's return is Hecatoncheires, regardless of whether or not Fuji returns it inside in the boundaries of the court, which could be likely, Tezuka still hits a clean return.

What I'm really trying to say is that TPhantom and Hecatoncheires aren't techniques that match up each against each other. In the first match up, Hametsu e no Rondo and Higuma Otoshi both deal with smashes, so it's a perfectly legitimate comparison, but TPhantom and Hecatoncheires just don't oppose each other in the same way.

I'd personally prefer to see Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. World of Ice/Atobe Kingdom.

FujiNumberOne
April 23, 2011, 11:56 PM
Oh, obviously I agree that Tezuka can break Hecatoncheires if Niou's illusion can, and I agree that Kagerou Zutsumi would be a better way to try to defeat TPhantom. But the comparison was just TPhantom v Hecatoncheires.

Also, I feel kind of dumb, but GUYU? What is that an abbreviation for?

I think the main reason that the OP pit these two against each other is because they have the same final effect (forcing an error). But you are right in that they don't really match up against each other, but if they did, I think Hecatoncheires would make it in, but would no longer really be Hecatoncheires. It would just be a normal shot, maybe with a slightly above average backspin, but nothing to cause an error.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 12:04 AM
Oh, obviously I agree that Tezuka can break Hecatoncheires if Niou's illusion can, and I agree that Kagerou Zutsumi would be a better way to try to defeat TPhantom. But the comparison was just TPhantom v Hecatoncheires.

Also, I feel kind of dumb, but GUYU? What is that an abbreviation for?

I think the main reason that the OP pit these two against each other is because they have the same final effect (forcing an error). But you are right in that they don't really match up against each other, but if they did, I think Hecatoncheires would make it in, but would no longer really be Hecatoncheires. It would just be a normal shot, maybe with a slightly above average backspin, but nothing to cause an error.

Gen'U Yume Utsutsu (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v05/c035/12.html) is the only thing that makes Yamato worth anything.

The manga itself says that Yamato sucks (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v05/c037/1.html) on more than one occasion (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v05/c036/3.html), but in order to provide a way for Tezuka to gain PoP, Yamato gets an epic bro moment.

Maybe Hecatoncheires makes it in, maybe it doesn't. On JAC, I posted a theory that stated that TPhantom requires the ball to travel a certain distance into the court, be hit with a sufficient amount of speed and force, as well as not be a spin-nullifying return in order to be able to pull the ball out.

At this point in the manga, TPhantom will never again be used. Tezuka gained the moveable Hyakuren, which surpasses TPhantom, and then PoP, which is obviously better.

In case you're unaware, Hecatoncheires is technically illegal. You can't carry the ball the way Fuji does for Hecatoncheires. It's just a side point I thought I'd mention.

FujiNumberOne
April 24, 2011, 12:22 AM
Okay, I wasn't thinking about Yamato at all XD

And I wouldn't necessarily say that Yamato sucks. I mean he was the captain of Seigaku, and was on Court 3. He just kind of keeps his skills on the DL.

I definitely agree that quite a lot of conditions would have to be met for Tezuka Phantom (or really even Tezuka Zone) to work. In real life, honestly, neither would work. You can only put one type of side spin on the ball obviously, so the opponent would just have to hit it the other way where the side spin wouldn't pull it towards (or in the case of TPhantom, push it away from) Tezuka. But, obviously, we have to suspend belief in actual tennis logic for the manga to work :P

No doubt we won't see TPhantom ever again. Chances are, since they had Tezuka leaving, we won't be seeing any of Tezuka's unique techniques anymore (except for in some kind of flash to his life like Konomi did when he was in Kyuushuu).

I was indeed unaware of that. Though, honestly, it wouldn't really matter since it's impossible to carry the ball like that in real life. Unless there was a really coincidental wind blowing, the ball would not stay on the racket when Fuji flips it. And, technically, you wouldn't need to add an insane amount of counter-spin to return it either. Just slicing it would do, because the ball would automatically respond to the spin from your racket, not also keep whatever spin was on it before (except in a case like Tsubame Gaeshi where you ADD spin instead of try to counter it). But, like I said before, you gotta suspend belief in actual tennis logic to go along with what was in the manga.

FrostyMouse
April 24, 2011, 12:33 AM
Okay, I wasn't thinking about Yamato at all XD

And I wouldn't necessarily say that Yamato sucks. I mean he was the captain of Seigaku, and was on Court 3. He just kind of keeps his skills on the DL.

Yamato loses to a young Tezuka as well as to an Atobe who at most only has Insight. GUYU is an impressive technique, but against a player who doesn't play like Tezuka, I question how good it really would be. Obviously GUYU is a good technique, but I'm on the fence about exactly how good.

Yamato is only a 2 in each of the five categories. Go read the fine print on his stat sheet. It says something along the lines of, "How did someone with such low stats become part of the 3rd Court?"


I definitely agree that quite a lot of conditions would have to be met for Tezuka Phantom (or really even Tezuka Zone) to work. In real life, honestly, neither would work. You can only put one type of side spin on the ball obviously, so the opponent would just have to hit it the other way where the side spin wouldn't pull it towards (or in the case of TPhantom, push it away from) Tezuka. But, obviously, we have to suspend belief in actual tennis logic for the manga to work :P

No doubt we won't see TPhantom ever again. Chances are, since they had Tezuka leaving, we won't be seeing any of Tezuka's unique techniques anymore (except for in some kind of flash to his life like Konomi did when he was in Kyuushuu).

We'll see Tezuka again at some point. Maybe in a few years, maybe if and when ShinTeni becomes a weekly serialization in WSJ.


I was indeed unaware of that. Though, honestly, it wouldn't really matter since it's impossible to carry the ball like that in real life. Unless there was a really coincidental wind blowing, the ball would not stay on the racket when Fuji flips it. And, technically, you wouldn't need to add an insane amount of counter-spin to return it either. Just slicing it would do, because the ball would automatically respond to the spin from your racket, not also keep whatever spin was on it before (except in a case like Tsubame Gaeshi where you ADD spin instead of try to counter it). But, like I said before, you gotta suspend belief in actual tennis logic to go along with what was in the manga.

You can't slide the ball around on the face of your racket, even ignoring the flipping part. Don't forget that Tsubame Gaeshi also doesn't work because you can't have a slice/topspin shot. That's irrelevant though.

Obviously you need to suspend actual tennis logic, although the manga still does go with the actual rule of being hit by the ball gives the point to the player who hit the other player.

FujiNumberOne
April 24, 2011, 12:52 AM
Yeah, but Tezuka already had a prototype of PoHW at that point, so that isn't too surprising. And like I said, he just seems the type that doesn't like to show off his skills to everyone, which would explain how he would lose in an unofficial match to Atobe (or was it official? I don't really remember it mentioning them playing, but I just finished re-reading PoT and am now re-reading SPoT, so I should get there soon) and not have high stats.

Oh my goodness, I really hope SPoT becomes a weekly serialization (and can't wait until it does). Yeah, I do think he'll probably show him across a couple chapters like he did when he was in Kyuushuu.

Yeah, that makes sense. But again, the slicing across the face would also be impossible unless the ball was going very slow before Fuji hit it. And yeah, I think the concept of Tsubame Gaeshi makes some sense, but the fact that it rolls FORWARD because of some latent topspin or something is bogus.

Yeah, while the actual tennis moves and stuff are quite insane, the rules presented by Konomi are usually quite accurate (though I remember Inui hitting a shot, them showing the mark, a small portion of it being on the line, and them saying that it was out, so I'm kinda confused about that).

Fuji Shusuke
April 26, 2011, 11:35 AM
Obviously some of you don't play tennis. I do, and making a ball slide across the face of the racquet is accidental and easy if you know how to do it. The racquet is parallel to the ball path which allows it to roll. Also if the ball hits the inner bottom part of the racquet frame it will cause the ball to slide across the face. The hard part of 5th counter is the flipping of the racquet. However if you can do it quickly, accurately and consistently, 5th counter is completely possible.

FujiNumberOne
April 26, 2011, 12:10 PM
Actually, I do play tennis. Making the ball slide across the racket is close to impossible, especially if you're playing someone who heats decent shots. With the speed of the ball, the instant it hits the racket, it bounces off of it. That's simple physics. The only time I've ever gotten the ball to stay on the racket is when I'm picking it up inbetween points, and even then it doesn't happen every time. If your racket is parallel to the ball path, you're pretty much going to get NOTHING done. You might get a strong spin on the ball, but unless you're right up at the net, it's not going to go past the net. And even then, it still doesn't slide across the face of the racket unless it was going extremely slow.

Fuji Shusuke
April 28, 2011, 05:35 AM
Next discussion:
Atobe's Atobe Kingdom vs. Pinnacle of Perfection (generally)

FujiNumberOne
April 29, 2011, 10:20 AM
Hmm, that's a difficult one. We haven't really seen much of Pinnacle of Perfection. But, considering how Ryoma was being absolutely crushed by Yukimura, and PoP got him an easy win, and that with Pinnacle of Perfection, Tezuka seemingly embarrassed Fuji, I would have to say Pinnacle of Perfection. Atobe Kingdom is great, but PoP seems to be unbeatable.

Veni
May 04, 2011, 09:34 AM
Obviously some of you don't play tennis. I do, and making a ball slide across the face of the racquet is accidental and easy if you know how to do it. The racquet is parallel to the ball path which allows it to roll. Also if the ball hits the inner bottom part of the racquet frame it will cause the ball to slide across the face. The hard part of 5th counter is the flipping of the racquet. However if you can do it quickly, accurately and consistently, 5th counter is completely possible.

Dude you can't be serious.
Hitting a ball like that is impossible. (also, even if it would be possible, it's effect would still be void since in real world lobs, heavy-topspin and slice shots would go over the net)

On topic: it's called Pinnacle of PERFECTION. eod

Fuji Shusuke
May 04, 2011, 12:52 PM
OK, so Pinnacle of Perfection beats all. What would happen if two people with PoP verse each other in singles?

Kaoz
May 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
As TnK releases all of the user's potential (iirc it was described that way), the one with greater potential would win.

Fuji Shusuke
October 10, 2011, 10:27 AM
Let's revive an old thread.
Next Discussion:
Sanada's Invade like Fire vs. Fuji's Kirin Otoshi

FrostyMouse
October 10, 2011, 04:02 PM
It has been a while...

I think Kirin Otoshi takes this rather clearly, but Sanada just uses Rai and hits a winner.

LetalHawk
October 10, 2011, 04:09 PM
Fuji can counter Sanada's Ka with Kirin Otoshi, sure, but then Sanada teleports, does Rai and wins.

Fuji Shusuke
October 10, 2011, 09:36 PM
Well, when Kirihara used Fire on Fuji, the Higuma Otoshi Barely managed to return it and with a broken gut. With Kirin Otoshi, will the gut break?

Surprise
October 10, 2011, 10:32 PM
the principle behind tsubame gaeshi is sound, if the other guy hits a ball with a lot of topspin the ball rolls towards you, and by slicing it you can take advantage of this to produce more slice than is normally possible, however realistically achieving no bounce is impossible, and after the ball has bounced on your side the rpm's of the ball have significantly dropped. If you are at the net and slice a high topspin ball it is possible to get an absurdly low bounce

FrostyMouse
October 10, 2011, 10:41 PM
Well, when Kirihara used Fire on Fuji, the Higuma Otoshi Barely managed to return it and with a broken gut. With Kirin Otoshi, will the gut break?

No, and we've proved this before. We came to the conclusion that one way to break Higuma Otoshi to have a power of at least 3.5, which Shiraishi has. However, Kirin Otoshi stands firm and hits a winner off of Shiraishi. That alone is your answer.

Fuji Shusuke
October 27, 2012, 09:39 AM
I bored so...

If TZ is used first, Tezuka's Tezuka Zone vs Echizen's COOL Drive.

LetalHawk
October 27, 2012, 10:17 AM
I bored so...

If TZ is used first, Tezuka's Tezuka Zone vs Echizen's COOL Drive.

If TZ is used, then Cool Drive should go to Tezuka, however, unless Echizen's Cool Drive has a significant amount of counterspin the Cool Drive will win, but if Yukimura retruned it no oroblem, tezuka will do the same with TZ.

Fuji Shusuke
October 27, 2012, 10:46 AM
If we assume the ball will return to Tezuka, will the spin from Cool Drive cause the ball to go towards his face?

Phantron
October 27, 2012, 12:58 PM
TZ doesn't seem to affect the ball in the net/backcourt axis. For example we see Tezuka's own drop shot counters his own TZ. Cool Drive appears to work similarly as a dropshot, as a shot that basically doesn't bounce needs to drop close to the net or someone can just volley it back.

TheShiraishi
October 27, 2012, 01:02 PM
Well, Yukimura returned the Cool Drive easily from the base line. (Was this like Itsuki's Sinker shot against Fuji's Tsubame Gaeshi?) Assuming Tezuka was at the baseline, he would also be able to return the shot.

But I see you mean when Tezuka and Echizen are both close to the net... I'd say he could just Hyakuren the shot.

Phantron
October 27, 2012, 01:34 PM
Cool Drive is irregular bounce which usually requires something special to hit it. Of course Yukimura can hit it just because he's Yukimura but Tezuka can't unconditionally returns shots by just invoking his name.

Hyakuren still can't return what you can't hit. Irregular bounces are drawn in a way so that you don't really see much baseline-baseline axis movement so the effect of TZone would be minimal. I guess it depends on whether irregular really means 'random' or 'not easily predicted'. If it's random bounce then he can't even predict where it'll go with TZone. If it's just hard to predict (the mountain top court has irregular bounces too but can be predicted with experience) then he'd be able to figure it out.

Note that TZone is useless if you can't predict where the ball is going, i.e. if you pull it to the right and it went right, then you don't get the intended outcome (though it would be better, because you now you get TPhantom effect, but for whatever reason this has never happened). In fact, if you can predict where the enemy is hitting so well, shouldn't you just move the ball to the right when they hit to the right corner and get a free point? I guess there's an implication that you must predict correct, i.e. pull ball to the right when you predicted hitting to left, even though being wrong, in this case, is actually even better.

Kaoz
October 27, 2012, 02:03 PM
Note that TZone is useless if you can't predict where the ball is going, i.e. if you pull it to the right and it went right, then you don't get the intended outcome (though it would be better, because you now you get TPhantom effect, but for whatever reason this has never happened). In fact, if you can predict where the enemy is hitting so well, shouldn't you just move the ball to the right when they hit to the right corner and get a free point? I guess there's an implication that you must predict correct, i.e. pull ball to the right when you predicted hitting to left, even though being wrong, in this case, is actually even better.

As much as I hate to post these lines here, Tezuka doesn't need to predict anything at all for TZone to work. I know I wrote otherwise a few months ago, but got rather recently pointed towards this (http://www.mangareader.net/422-27246-12/prince-of-tennis/chapter-349.html) page, where it basically says that TZone is just some sort of super spin that halves the spin of whatever shot the opponent uses next, and as a result the shot gets somehow pulled inwards.

Probably should have posted this sooner somewhere but oh well.

Hardy
October 27, 2012, 02:54 PM
As much as I hate to post these lines here, Tezuka doesn't need to predict anything at all for TZone to work. I know I wrote otherwise a few months ago, but got rather recently pointed towards this (http://www.mangareader.net/422-27246-12/prince-of-tennis/chapter-349.html) page, where it basically says that TZone is just some sort of super spin that halves the spin of whatever shot the opponent uses next, and as a result the shot gets somehow pulled inwards.

Probably should have posted this sooner somewhere but oh well.

It actually makes no sense. If I hit the ball COMPLETELY OUT, then the TZ shouldn't work (or he would pull the ball inwards and make it hit the line or something like that).

Kaoz
October 27, 2012, 03:04 PM
It actually makes no sense. If I hit the ball COMPLETELY OUT, then the TZ shouldn't work (or he would pulled the ball inwards and make it hit the line or something like that).

According to that explanation, it simply shouldn't work on out balls. Kaidou's shots were still affected though in the elimination matches, although you could argue that he just put a stronger spin on the zone there.

To be honest, the prediction explanation probably makes much more "sense", but what can we do?

Hardy
October 27, 2012, 03:21 PM
So, if someone forces Tezuka to hit the ball to the middle, TZ shouldn't work?

Prediction made this way more easy lol.

Wait, IIRC, didn't someone try to make a drop against Tezuka and he pulled the ball towards him?

Kaoz
October 27, 2012, 03:27 PM
So, if someone forces Tezuka to hit the ball to the middle, TZ shouldn't work?

It doesn't matter what place Tezuka hits to, he can apparently apply the zone spin regardless of shot type (e.g. he put it on the ball when he returned Hametsu e no Rondo). And if the opponent hits down the middle anyway, there's no need for a zone to change the ball's course since Tezuka stands at the center mark anyways.


Wait, IIRC, didn't someone try to make a drop against Tezuka and he pulled the ball towards him?

I do not recall any instance of that happening when the zone was out, might be wrong though.

Fuji Shusuke
October 27, 2012, 06:10 PM
Ok, let me try to make sense of this. If the spin halving thing is true, then...

Tezuka puts a strong sidespin onto the ball in advance to draw the ball in. The opponent hits it but due to the TZ spin, they can only put half of the usual spin onto the ball since the opponent's spin cancels out the TZ spin. However, the ball is drawn in towards Tezuka because when the ball is on the opponent's racquet, the ball digs into the gut and the spin pushes onto the strings to force the shot in the direction of the spin.

Ok the prediction explanation worked much better ._.

---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 AM ----------

BTW, during Tezuka!Niou match vs Fuji, was Niou able to use TZ on Houou Gaeshi?

TheShiraishi
October 27, 2012, 06:56 PM
BTW, during Tezuka!Niou match vs Fuji, was Niou able to use TZ on Houou Gaeshi?

Yes. The ball came back to Tezuka, it was above and behind him
http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of-Tennis/chapter-360/page012.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Prince-of-Tennis/chapter-360/page013.html

Airgrimes
October 27, 2012, 06:57 PM
I do not recall any instance of that happening when the zone was out, might be wrong though.
Sanada with Rin no?

Kaoz
October 28, 2012, 03:22 AM
Sanada with Rin no?

Sanada didn't use Rin against Zone. He only started using it against Phantom.

Airgrimes
October 28, 2012, 04:34 AM
Sanada didn't use Rin against Zone. He only started using it against Phantom.
My bad.

Fuji Shusuke
October 28, 2012, 04:46 AM
Tezuka did manage to pull in Rai with TZ eventually. I think that may be enough to say Tezuka Zone > COOL Drive?

LetalHawk
October 28, 2012, 05:32 AM
Tezuka did manage to pull in Rai with TZ eventually. I think that may be enough to say Tezuka Zone > COOL Drive?

Rai is faster and has more spin, is harder to catch and return. TZ>Cool Drive

Phantron
October 28, 2012, 05:17 PM
TZone doesn't affect the baseline/net axis. Tezuka used ZSD against Kabaji to beat his own TZone, and Kabaji responded by using ZSD too. If TZone can pull the ball on the baseline/net axis it wouldn't make sense to use this against TZone because you'd just hit the ZSD back before it drops if you can move the ball in that axis. In fact that'd mean drop shots in general should stop TZone because even if you can't do the 'roll on the ground' effect, there's no way the first bounce after a dropshot would reach the baseline so Tezuka would have to leave the baseline even on a normal dropshot. Now of course if you did a weak dropshot that'd be countered easily by running up to the net but if you just want to get rid of TZone, it's actually pretty easy, though you'd almost certainly just lose a point immediately after.

We'll ignore the fact that it seems to require different spin to move the ball to right as opposed to left, and let's just say TZone uses an 'attractive' spin while TPhantom uses a 'replusive' spin that causes the ball to unconditionally go toward/away from where Tezuka is.

Even if you give that to Tezuka, his choice of moves still makes no sense. In the diagram it shows that TZone only has to pull the ball enough from baseline to Tezuka in middle + length of the racket, while TPhantom requires more spin because it has to push the ball from middle all the way to out of bounds. But, this seems to imply the attractive/replusive spin requires the same amount of energy if they moved the ball distance (TPhantom uses more, because you got to move the ball a further distance).

Here's the problem: outside of Atobe nobody can see when TZone/TPhantom is activated because nobody's eyes is that good to see how the ball is spinning. That is, to Tezuka's opponent, it is not clear to him whether the ball has the repulsive, attractive, or something else. In light of this you'd have to hit the ball toward the middle every single time because if you hit it even slightly to the left/right then it only takes TZone level of repulsive spin to move it out of bounds, which Tezuka can keep up forever. Of course, if you always hit it toward the middle then Tezuka certainly has no problem returning any shots hit toward the middle (the point of TZone is to make you hit toward the middle).

Finally of course Rin would beat TZone but it's pointless because Rin is a trivial shot to return, while the point of TZone is to get an easy shot to return. TZone can be maintained effectively forever for Tezuka, so using Rin just gives Tezuka unlimited chances to try to score by rallying.

Airgrimes
October 28, 2012, 06:26 PM
Rai is faster and has more spin, is harder to catch and return. TZ>Cool Drive
We don't know about more spin.
But we know about it having a random spin.

LetalHawk
October 29, 2012, 03:48 AM
We don't know about more spin.
But we know about it having a random spin.

Yes, it has an unpredictable path, so far, only Yukimura and Tezuka have been able to catch up and hit the shot, only Yukimura was able to return it.

But yeah, definitely harder to return than Cool Drive.

Fuji Shusuke
October 29, 2012, 08:07 AM
I think it's safe to end COOL Drive vs TZ with TZ winning.



I'd personally prefer to see Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. World of Ice/Atobe Kingdom.

Ok then, Chitose's Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. Atobe's World of Ice.

Airgrimes
October 29, 2012, 03:10 PM
Ok then, Chitose's Saiki Kanpatsu no Kiwami vs. Atobe's World of Ice.
WoI.

WoI can hit to where the opponent shouldn't be able to reach. With no TZ or anything involved, WoI should win overall.

Fuji Shusuke
October 29, 2012, 06:56 PM
Hold on, what if Chitose starts moving towards the next ball before Atobe's hit it? You can argue that Atobe will hit to a new blind spot but what if he runs in another direction all of a sudden? Then the blind spot has changed.

Hardy
October 29, 2012, 07:34 PM
Hold on, what if Chitose starts moving towards the next ball before Atobe's hit it? You can argue that Atobe will hit to a new blind spot but what if he runs in another direction all of a sudden? Then the blind spot has changed.

...and then Atobe hits the ball to the new blind spot?

Phantron
October 29, 2012, 07:37 PM
If there's no feedback loop then obviously WoI wins every time, Saiki would just show you a future where WoI scores off you every single time.

For the sake of argument we'll assume Chitose only has one blind spot too, so in this case he could use Saiki to see where WoI will hit to, deduce that is his own blind spot and thus immediately do something to shift your position to remove the blind spot. However WoI is also an adapative ability. Whatever you do to remove your first blind spot just opens up a blind spot elsewhere (assuming Chitose cannot pull the 'no blindspot' trick that Irie did) so you'll just hit to the new blindspot you see. At this point you'll run into an infinite loop since you can then use Saiki to predict where the new blind spot is and then attempt to neutralize it, but this opens a different blind spot.

So in conclusion the Saiki user would have no idea which of the infinitely many outcome is what's supposed to happen and is almost certainly going to guess wrong, because each time you use Saiki to predict the future, that immediately changes the future as your blind spot is different and the WoI user is always just going to hit the ball to whatever blind spot he sees.

Airgrimes
October 30, 2012, 07:47 AM
For the sake of argument we'll assume Chitose only has one blind spot too, so in this case he could use Saiki to see where WoI will hit to,
If Ryoma had loads of blind spots, so will Chitose.

Phantron
October 30, 2012, 09:08 PM
If Ryoma had loads of blind spots, so will Chitose.

Well that just makes the infinite possibilitities you can see even more infinite. It doesn't actually change the outcome, though that means each time you see Saiki the number of possible futures goes up by a factor equal to the number of blind spots you have.