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View Full Version : Conditional Vizard Kensei vs Vizard Tousen



Broken_Wing
May 16, 2011, 01:00 AM
Battle of the former 9th Squad Captains

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/kenseivstousen-1.png

Its payback time!

Location: FKT
Starting state: Shikai
Restrictions: bankai/resureccion

Added graphic ~ WD

Takahashi
May 16, 2011, 01:48 AM
I'd say Tousen, I doubt he's inferior to Kensei to any significant degree, so his HSR gets him the win.

Broken_Wing
May 16, 2011, 01:52 AM
I'd say Tousen, I doubt he's inferior to Kensei to any significant degree, so his HSR gets him the win.

Im confused...why did you vote Kensei then? lol

Takahashi
May 16, 2011, 02:04 AM
Im confused...why did you vote Kensei then? lol

Because I'm an idiot. I could have sworn it said Tousen when I clicked it XP

ShootToKill
May 16, 2011, 12:22 PM
If Kensei is restricted to Shikai, Tousen stomps imo. He has HSR and ridiculous power/speed - I wouldn't expect Vizard Kensei to destroy KTM in the manner of Vizard Tousen.

Broken_Wing
May 16, 2011, 03:36 PM
Well I always considered Kensei as the most physically strong of the vizards.

With his energy shooting/exploding shikai army knife and his wind-based wire cutters for range, along with his mask boost for speed/strength/durability....I dont think he would be overpowered by Mask Tousen.

Damage to the brain of Tousen would still end him and perhaps to the vitals in his torso as well. Against HSR you either need a high-damaging attack to a critcal area or a constant barrage of damage before regeneration kicks in. Mask Kensei has shown to be capable of a barrage of swift/powerful punches.

El Samurai Guapo
May 17, 2011, 09:50 PM
Kensei. His exploding knife will make HSR a non-factor. Anyone who gets stabbed by that thing is screwed really, hence why I don't buy it was WW who off-paneled him.

SaintSheik
May 17, 2011, 10:21 PM
Hollowfied Tousen with some difficulty. After all, with the Vaizards (group) having a century to master their hollow abilities, its a real shame none of them showcased something as beneficial as HSR.

That and Kensei was never exactly known for his speed..something that Hollowfied Tousen has more than enough of. Tousen takes this one, in my opinion. A better matchup would be Tousen against Wonderweiss, no?

Kugo Ginjo
May 18, 2011, 07:12 AM
Kensei's raw power is probably higher then Tousen's (speculation), but the real problem is Tousen's HSR.

However, his HSR feats aren't that great either, regenerating this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-10/bleach/chapter-385.html), which is inferior to some other HSR characters (Ulquiorra, Hichigo, Wonderweiss, Nnoitra).
So his HSR will heal normal wounds (slashes/broken bones) but it wont heal a limb that has been cut off or organs.

So I'd say that Tousen would lose an arm after this attack (http://www.mangareader.net/94-674-3/bleach/chapter-220.html)(like it did to Ichigo), if it hits him in the first place of course

Shikai Kensei's strength is also rather good (http://www.mangareader.net/94-34415-17/bleach/chapter-376.html), this is another good example (http://www.mangareader.net/94-673-13/bleach/chapter-219.html)

Featwise, Tousen should win this, logical powerscaling is in the favour of Kensei (Veteran captain level character/hollow mask mastery (longer then Tousen)/looks like the second strongest vizard after Shinji)

cloudo
May 18, 2011, 04:40 PM
Kensei's power shouldn't be any greater than the strength of Koma's bankai. And Tosen got ripped by that thing yet still was alright. Tosen got this in the bag. I even think he's stronger than Shinji, just not as hax. But Tosen has HSR, plus speed beyond any vizard IMO.

Kugo Ginjo
May 19, 2011, 04:28 PM
Kensei's power shouldn't be any greater than the strength of Koma's bankai.
Based on what?
And don't forget that Komamura never hit Tousen with his sword, or do you think that a blunt attack has more effect then a slash?

Shikai Kensei was able to blast Hollow Ichigo's arm off, why wouldn't this happen to Tousen? (whose durability feats are bad)



And Tosen got ripped by that thing yet still was alright. Tosen got this in the bag. I even think he's stronger than Shinji, just not as hax. But Tosen has HSR, plus speed beyond any vizard IMO.
He wasn't alright, and like I said he got hit once by Kokujo Tengen Myo'o and it wasn't even the blade.

See my above post, his HSR isn't that impressive.

He failed to blitz Hisagi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-397-page-15.html)

And why does he have higher speed in the first place?
His speed in SS was never impressive, nor was his speed in FKT, logical powerscaling puts the Vizard captains above him.

Crystal Black
May 19, 2011, 04:38 PM
This is close, very close. I could see it going either way, but I personally believe Kensei will have the advantage because of his shikai. Tosen showed some great skills in cqc, but agianst Kensei that might be too perilous of a chance to risk.

cloudo
May 19, 2011, 10:27 PM
Based on what?
And don't forget that Komamura never hit Tousen with his sword, or do you think that a blunt attack has more effect then a slash?

Shikai Kensei was able to blast Hollow Ichigo's arm off, why wouldn't this happen to Tousen? (whose durability feats are bad)



He wasn't alright, and like I said he got hit once by Kokujo Tengen Myo'o and it wasn't even the blade.

See my above post, his HSR isn't that impressive.

He failed to blitz Hisagi (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-397-page-15.html)

And why does he have higher speed in the first place?
His speed in SS was never impressive, nor was his speed in FKT, logical powerscaling puts the Vizard captains above him.

HSR regeneration is better by 100% than none at all. He didn't blitz hisagi because he was fighting 2 people and on top of it hisagi took an extra step back, it says so on the very page you linked to. Thats not a 'failure to blitz' anyone. Tosen's durability feats are bad? lol- OK, so being punched by arguably the strongest bankai attack power (bar Yama and unseen bankais) yet still being mobile is bad durability? What manga are you reading? The vizards weren't enhanced by the hoguyoku purposely, Tosen's power was. If you really think he was slow you need to go back and re-read.

Kugo Ginjo
May 20, 2011, 08:53 AM
HSR regeneration is better by 100% than none at all.
Sure it is, except that it wont save him when he loses a limb.



He didn't blitz hisagi because he was fighting 2 people
Lmao.

Both Hisagi and Komamura were standing there, they were not fighting anyone, Tousen charges at Hisagi and fails to bring him down.


and on top of it hisagi took an extra step back, it says so on the very page you linked to.
That's Hisagi's fighting style (http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch384%2Fbleach-ch384-13.png), Tousen's goal was to bring down Hisagi but he failed since Hisagi dodged it by half a step, meaning that Tousen didn't completely blitz him.



Tosen's durability feats are bad?
Show me a good durability feat.

If you bring up Kokujo Tengen Myo'o, then give me a good feat for it's firepower.


yet still being mobile is bad durability?
Yes it is, since he never showed any good durability.

That's clearly an endurance feat and not an impressive one on top of that, he barely did anything after he got attacked except jumping in the air and regenerating his arm.


What manga are you reading?
I'm not sure.... Bleach maybe?


The vizards weren't enhanced by the hoguyoku purposely, Tosen's power was. If you really think he was slow you need to go back and re-read.
Cool story, in what way does that make Tousen stronger then the vizards?

Show me his good speed feats.

Takahashi
May 20, 2011, 03:17 PM
I don't really see why Tousen wouldn't be able to regenerate lost limbs. His HSR quite easily fixed an absolutely disgusting "broken in every possible place" arm. I doubt it'd be limited to that just because we saw nothing further.

At any rate, the limb lopping explosion might prove to be an effective method, but that's under the assumption that he connects with it. You could just as easily say a knife to the head is a solution, it all depends on whether Tousen will leave himself as open as Hollow Ichigo did.

Since I doubt neither Tousen or Kensei are a large degree better than the other, HSR could easily be the tie breaker.

Kugo Ginjo
May 20, 2011, 03:31 PM
I don't really see why Tousen wouldn't be able to regenerate lost limbs. His HSR quite easily fixed an absolutely disgusting "broken in every possible place" arm. I doubt it'd be limited to that just because we saw nothing further.
Well, his limit for now is regenerating a heavily damaged limb, regenerating a lost limb is something else.

So everything beyond this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-10/bleach/chapter-385.html) is pure speculation.

Takahashi
May 20, 2011, 03:41 PM
Well, his limit for now is regenerating a heavily damaged limb, regenerating a lost limb is something else.

So everything beyond this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-10/bleach/chapter-385.html) is pure speculation.

True, I wasn't saying anything definitive, as I don't know. But to say that the explosive knife is going to flat out beat Tousen's HSR isn't confirmed either.

Kugo Ginjo
May 20, 2011, 03:54 PM
No it isn't going to defeat Tousen just like that.

However, Tousen losing an arm should put him at a great disadvantage.

Also, featwise, Tousen could probably win, but I rate Kensei (much) higher then a masked Tousen (resurrecion Tousen is another story).

CeroOskuraz
May 20, 2011, 05:41 PM
I imagine it takes a good deal more amount of Reiatsu to regenerate an entire arm (from Tousen) than from simply blowing it up with a basic Shikai technique (from Kensei).

As for whether or not he can regenerate it, I'd say he can. What regeneration is essentially, is, cell multiplication, and if Tousen's bones were shattered by Komamura (which is likely given the state of his arm; bloody pulp, and the massive trauma KTM inflicts with brute force), obviously cell multiplication took place so that they could heal. Regenerating limbs is simply, a more complex version of cell multiplication.

I'd imagine it'd be far more complicated, but still the same principle. Although Tousen would be at a disadvantage regardless.

cloudo
May 23, 2011, 03:33 PM
Sure it is, except that it wont save him when he loses a limb.



Lmao.

Both Hisagi and Komamura were standing there, they were not fighting anyone, Tousen charges at Hisagi and fails to bring him down.


That's Hisagi's fighting style (http://ju-ni.net/gallery/index.php?display=BLEACH%2FWeekly%20Shounen%20JUMP%20Chapters%2Fch384%2Fbleach-ch384-13.png), Tousen's goal was to bring down Hisagi but he failed since Hisagi dodged it by half a step, meaning that Tousen didn't completely blitz him.



Show me a good durability feat.

If you bring up Kokujo Tengen Myo'o, then give me a good feat for it's firepower.


Yes it is, since he never showed any good durability.

That's clearly an endurance feat and not an impressive one on top of that, he barely did anything after he got attacked except jumping in the air and regenerating his arm.


I'm not sure.... Bleach maybe?


Cool story, in what way does that make Tousen stronger then the vizards?

Show me his good speed feats.

You're posts are a joke. I laugh because you say things like HSR isn't great, then say it can't REGENERATE a lost limb? WTF is regeneration for? The rest of your argument isn't worth replying to after that. So in your world being modified by the hog' purposely is less than being modified by the hog' accidentally? Thats why your argument isn't worth an argument.

Kugo Ginjo
May 23, 2011, 04:33 PM
You're posts are a joke.
Nice to hear that


I laugh because you say things like HSR isn't great,
When did I say that it isn't great?
I said that Tousen's HSR isn't great compared to some other HSR-people.


then say it can't REGENERATE a lost limb?
Show me a panel where it regenerated a lost limb


WTF is regeneration for?
Obviously to regenerate, are you retarded?:amuse


The rest of your argument isn't worth replying to after that.
Concession accepted


So in your world being modified by the hog' purposely is less than being modified by the hog' accidentally? Thats why your argument isn't worth an argument.
Explain why it makes them more awesome, Tousen was a weak captain to begin with, Shinji was implied to be the strongest of a group rather-senior-captains.

CeroOskuraz
May 25, 2011, 05:58 PM
You're posts are a joke.

This must be why no one thanks you and five people have thanked Fairyman, right?

Ah well, can't win'em all.

Look, here's the basic case, and I'm not saying I agree with Fairy (I don't actually), but your "debate" is about regen. There are different levels of regeneration. Ulquiorra states so, right here (http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-5/bleach/chapter-351.html)

The level of regeneration humans possess is cell division, which is regeneration that will heal injuries like broken bones, cuts, lashes, or other wounds like such. So far, the only regeneration feat that Tousen has demonstrated has been cell division regeneration (albeit accelerated, really!)

http://www.mangareader.net/94-41609-10/bleach/chapter-385.html

Reconstruction of an entirely new limb, an arm for example, is a much more convoluted process. It cannot be done with simple accelerated cell division. That's why we as humans cannot regenerate amputated limbs. Now, is Tousen's regeneration that advanced? Well, that's the issue of y'all's two debate. Not saying either of you are right or wrong, But your reasoning hinges on things like this:


then say it can't REGENERATE a lost limb? WTF is regeneration for?

You say just because he has regeneration, he should be able to reconstruct a lost limb. You'll have to do better than that, because I just showed you that that's not necessarily the case at all.

ShootToKill
May 25, 2011, 09:36 PM
The level of regeneration humans possess is cell division, which is regeneration that will heal injuries like broken bones, cuts, lashes, or other wounds like such. So far, the only regeneration feat that Tousen has demonstrated has been cell division regeneration (albeit accelerated, really!)

Reconstruction of an entirely new limb, an arm for example, is a much more convoluted process. It cannot be done with simple accelerated cell division. That's why we as humans cannot regenerate amputated limbs.
I'm not sure whether your "human" argument is valid in this case... the Hogyoku essentially turned Tousen into a completely different being, more Arrancar than Shinigami if you ask me - he had a Resurreccion after all. The characters we have seen exhibit HSR as of yet are WW, Ulquiorra and Tousen, and the former two have both regenerated, not simply mended, parts of their body.

I have no proof that Tousen can completely regenerate a lost limb, but judging by the track record of other Arrancar (among which I count masked Tousen), it isn't too outlandish a statement to claim that he can.

CeroOskuraz
May 25, 2011, 09:57 PM
Wasn't making an argument, more like pointing out the fact that there are simply different levels of regeneration. There's accelerated healing, and reconstruction, which are just different

freshseth83
May 26, 2011, 04:38 PM
HSR was never detailed to be two different things or have 2 stages, or whatever. Didn't Ulquiorra say most espada had forgone it in trade for strength? So when Komamura questions Tosen for his pursuit of hollow powers, isn't it safe to assume those powers of a hollow would allow for regeneration of a limb? Be it broken or dismembered, is there a difference when Ulquiorra showed what HSR was capable of in regenerating a lost limb to what Tosen showed what HSR was capable of in regenerating a broken limb? Is there a difference with WW regenerating his body after Yama punched a hole through him? What Cloudo said was HSR, not regular regeneration. How do you get that mixed up? Tosen showed HSR, powers of a hollow, like Ulquiorra said, even was linked to here. He doesn't say anything about different types of regeneration. He says espada gave up that power for greater strength. So how was Cloudo wrong?

El Samurai Guapo
May 26, 2011, 04:53 PM
So I'd say that Tousen would lose an arm after this attack (http://www.mangareader.net/94-674-3/bleach/chapter-220.html)(like it did to Ichigo), if it hits him in the first place of course


Honestly who knows if Kaname can completely regrow a lost limb like Ulquiorra, but just so you know it'd be a non-issue regardless. Kensei only aimed that attack at Ichigo's arm because he was instructed by Shinji not to "off him." All Kensei has to do is aim that attack at Kaname's torso instead. Or simply stab into him with his knife and blow him up from the inside out.

freshseth83
May 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
If he can reach him with that attack. It's easy to hit a stationary object but Tosen showed great speed. I never bought into the 'weak captain' thing about him. He was able to down Kensei and others before with just a shikai, even if it was a sneaky attack. I'm not saying he was stronger than them, but he was only a seated officer or v/c at most back then. Now, or at least the latest Tosen, is surely quicker stronger and way more deadly. He's at least on par with any vizard, I'd say beyond them if he had a resurrecion. To me that shows he was 'modified' by the Hog' beyond the vizards, Kensei included.

Kugo Ginjo
May 27, 2011, 01:06 PM
HSR was never detailed to be two different things or have 2 stages, or whatever. Didn't Ulquiorra say most espada had forgone it in trade for strength? So when Komamura questions Tosen for his pursuit of hollow powers, isn't it safe to assume those powers of a hollow would allow for regeneration of a limb? Be it broken or dismembered, is there a difference when Ulquiorra showed what HSR was capable of in regenerating a lost limb to what Tosen showed what HSR was capable of in regenerating a broken limb? Is there a difference with WW regenerating his body after Yama punched a hole through him? What Cloudo said was HSR, not regular regeneration. How do you get that mixed up? Tosen showed HSR, powers of a hollow, like Ulquiorra said, even was linked to here. He doesn't say anything about different types of regeneration. He says espada gave up that power for greater strength. So how was Cloudo wrong?
There are definitely "levels" in HSR.

Ulquiorra being able to regenerate most wounds except organs (http://www.mangareader.net/94-807-6/bleach/chapter-353.html)

Nnoitra being able to heal slashes (http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-11/bleach/chapter-309.html) and arms (http://www.mangareader.net/94-764-13/bleach/chapter-310.html) but not this (http://www.mangareader.net/94-766-9/bleach/chapter-312.html)

Wonderweiss being able to heal almost everything unless he gets blown apart (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-9/bleach/chapter-394.html)

Tousen's greatest feat in HSR is healing a broken (albeat heavily) arm, this is nothing compared to regenerating a lost limb, nor did he ever show that he was able to do something similar.

The "Tousen got stronger thanks to the Hogyoku"-part also applies to the espada (http://www.mangareader.net/94-708-1/bleach/chapter-254.html), so they too got enhanced by it.

Also Tousen being stronger then Ulquiorra and stuff doesn't mean that his regeneration is superior, even this guy (http://www.mangareader.net/94-639-19/bleach/chapter-185.html) was able to regenerate his arms (http://www.mangareader.net/94-639-20/bleach/chapter-185.html), it was just an arrancar prototype (http://www.mangareader.net/94-642-15/bleach/chapter-188.html), so no it wasn't high leveled.

Takahashi
May 27, 2011, 03:16 PM
Well actually, the one where Noitora healed the slashes was because of his Resurrection. All Resurrections heal them.

Kugo Ginjo
May 27, 2011, 04:19 PM
Well actually, the one where Noitora healed the slashes was because of his Resurrection. All Resurrections heal them.

All Resurreccións?

It didn't seem like Edorad healed this wound (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-21/bleach/chapter-203.html), even after using his resurreccion (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-22/bleach/chapter-203.html), the wound was still there (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-23/bleach/chapter-203.html)

And Ichigo was surprised that Nnoitra could heal the wounds that he sustained from Kenpachi (http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-11/bleach/chapter-309.html), I doubt that Ichigo would be surprised if he already knew that wounds like that would heal anyway, so this isn't something that every arrancar can do.

HaouLelouch
May 28, 2011, 08:58 AM
All Resurreccións?

It didn't seem like Edorad healed this wound (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-21/bleach/chapter-203.html), even after using his resurreccion (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-22/bleach/chapter-203.html), the wound was still there (http://www.mangareader.net/94-657-23/bleach/chapter-203.html)

And Ichigo was surprised that Nnoitra could heal the wounds that he sustained from Kenpachi (http://www.mangareader.net/94-763-11/bleach/chapter-309.html), I doubt that Ichigo would be surprised if he already knew that wounds like that would heal anyway, so this isn't something that every arrancar can do.

Ichigo was surprised at a lot of things that time, including the fact that nnoitra grew more arms. I think he was surprised at the fact that such a severe wound could be healed. edorad was one of the first arrancar who released and his wound was a minor one so Kubo could have left it out, all arrancar after that who sustained notable injuries before releasing managed to heal them (nnoitra, hallibel's fraccion are the examples I remember).

Kugo Ginjo
May 28, 2011, 09:43 AM
Ichigo was surprised at a lot of things that time, including the fact that nnoitra grew more arms.
Does that refute anything?

He fought against Grimmjow, Don Panini and such yet he only commented on Nnoitra's regeneration.



I think he was surprised at the fact that such a severe wound could be healed.
Then Nnoitra's regen is simply better?


edorad was one of the first arrancar who released and his wound was a minor one so Kubo could have left it out, all arrancar after that who sustained notable injuries before releasing managed to heal them (nnoitra, hallibel's fraccion are the examples I remember).

Hallibel's fraccion sustained minor injuries so Kubo could have left it out.

It was noted and even showed that Nnoitra's regeneration was good, this wasn't with other arrancar's, so he's unique.