Strongest shinobi alive

[THM Nindo]

There's no official TOP 10 anywhere in this forum.
Here's the first one.

Remember that this is a Top 10 of the strongest living characters.
But nothing is preventing you of doing a Top 10 for the living and a Top 10 for the dead.

Top 10 of the living :

1- Madara
Phasing jutsu is too strong

2- Raikage
Was implied to be stronger than Hachibi himself (If he isn't then he doesn't deserve the rank-2)

3- Hachibi
Perfect control over his Bijuu.

4- Naruto
Sage-Mode and Kyubbi make him real strong. Even stronger when he get perfect control over his Bijuu.

5- Sasuke
Never too far from Naruto. Once he realize Naruto is that strong, he will get EMS, and will possibly be stronger than Naruto again.

6- Kisame
Biggest Chakra pool in all the shinobi of Narutoverse. Could even be higher in the ranks, but we don't know him really well.

7- Kakashi
Kakashi is the most complete Shinobi. He's good in everything, and his tactical mind and Sharingan make him even stronger.

8- Tsunade
Can't just throw her away. She's the Hokage, and even if her expertise is healing, her medical jutsu and her chakra control make her a very dangerous opponent.

9- Yamato
Only heir of the Mokuton abilities. He can stop and pin down a 4-tailed Kyubbi. Mokuton might be one of the strongest jutsu.

10- Gai
Gai is an expert at Taijutsu. We never saw him (at least, I don't remember) how fast he can be without the weight on his legs. And with 7 or 8 gates open, he might just become one of the strongest ninja for a short moment.

Note : You will notice that I didn't put Nagato/Pain in this list, but it's because it will be outdated soon since he will probably die in the next 2-3 chapters :p
(If you wonder why then Kakashi is in the list, it's because I'm sure he will live !!!) :D

Note : Zetsu and Danzou are possibly stronger than people in this Top 10 list, but we don't know enough of their power to really tell.:darn

What is your Top 10 list!?

[Oathencrantz]

Cool list, but when was Raikage said to be stronger than Hachibi?

[THM Nindo]

Cool list, but when was Raikage said to be stronger than Hachibi?

Didn't Hachibi said it himself?
I think he said that it was his brother than cut his horn (when he's in 8-tail, one of his horn is cut off), and that he was the only able to stop him.

I'll look at the manga again, but I'm pretty sure it was implied that Raikage was stronger than his brother, the Hachibi.

Edit :
That's all I got from the manga for now : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/04/
But I'm pretty sure I saw it somewhere else... I'll check again later.

[Destined_One]

What about Nagato, since technically atm he is still alive??.. he would be in the top 2 IMO... Also Garaa would have to be in the top 10 he is the Kazekage after all, Id have him in front of Yamato, and potentially Kabutomaru, who's new ambition was to surpass Oro, by the time we see him next he might be even stronger than Oro ever was.. remember he was a kakashi lvl Nin before this...

And may I ask where it is stated that the raikage is stronger than kirabi? only evidence of his strength is what kabuto said about Hiruzen being the strongest of the five kages.. so he might not be as strong as bee id drop him til more is known

Edit: O I see, he said not since my brother has someone defected Number 8... but then sasuke did the same thing and was pawned directly after lol

[THM Nindo]

What about Nagato, since technically atm he is still alive??.. he would be in the top 2 IMO... Also Garaa would have to be in the top 10 he is the Kazekage after all, Id have him in front of Yamato, and potentially Kabutomaru, who's new ambition was to surpass Oro, by the time we see him next he might be even stronger than Oro ever was.. remember he was a kakashi lvl Nin before this...

And may I ask where it is stated that the raikage is stronger than kirabi? only evidence of his strength is what kabuto said about Hiruzen being the strongest of the five kages.. so he might not be as strong as bee id drop him til more is known

Edit: O I see, he said not since my brother has someone defected Number 8... but then sasuke did the same thing and was pawned directly after lol

Yeah, I said in one of the note I put below the list that I didn't included Pain/Nagato because I think he will be dead in 4 chapters and that this list will be outdated after his death :p:p

As for Gaara and Kabuto, I must admit that they might fit somewhere in the Top 10, you're right...

Gaara would be in the lowest part of the list, though...
I even question myself if he wouldn't finish 11th or 12th...
I can see everyone in this list beating Gaara, even Gai.

As for Kabuto, he is still an enigma for now, like Danzou and Zetsu, we have no clue of what he's capable right now...

[Natoma]

Without Shikaku, Gaara's powers are significantly weakened. He's Kazekage, but I don't think that's because of how powerful he is at this point.

I gotta say though Nindo, Sasuke's well down that list than you have him. He lost a significant amount of power with the removal of the CS, and he's going blind right now from using his MS so much, even at this early stage.

And getting his ass kicked by Kirabi certainly didn't help his case. I mean, the guy would've been dead twice without his teammates to bail him out.

If he gets EMS then you could arguably put him 4th, though I think that would be overly generous. But until then I'd put him below Yamato who has been shown to be able to seal Amaterasu.

[Destined_One]

Without Shikaku, Gaara's powers are significantly weakened. He's Kazekage, but I don't think that's because of how powerful he is at this point.

I gotta say though Nindo, Sasuke's well down that list than you have him. He lost a significant amount of power with the removal of the CS, and he's going blind right now from using his MS so much, even at this early stage.

And getting his ass kicked by Kirabi certainly didn't help his case. I mean, the guy would've been dead twice without his teammates to bail him out.

If he gets EMS then you could arguably put him 4th, though I think that would be overly generous. But until then I'd put him below Yamato who has been shown to be able to seal Amaterasu.

I disagree, we have to remember that Kishi made a direct point in saying sasuke wasn't at full health whilst fighting Kirabi... also he had trained for 2.5 years with CS, and has just learned how to control his MS... When Sasuke states he has the power to destroy konoha... I'm actually wondering if hes referring to his 3rd MS jutsu... as in the DB I think it says the mastery of Ame & Tsyu lead to the user gaining access to a 3rd ability which could put him right up there once more.. also its hard to fault sasuke who went up against an opponent like Kirabi

[jdw]

I disagree, we have to remember that Kishi made a direct point in saying sasuke wasn't at full health whilst fighting Kirabi... also he had trained for 2.5 years with CS, and has just learned how to control his MS... When Sasuke states he has the power to destroy konoha... I'm actually wondering if hes referring to his 3rd MS jutsu... as in the DB I think it says the mastery of Ame & Tsyu lead to the user gaining access to a 3rd ability which could put him right up there once more.. also its hard to fault sasuke who went up against an opponent like Kirabi

Even if he was not at 100%, how do we know that Bee was? Sasuke had 3 lives to try to beat Bee and didn't succeed with any of them. Sasuke went looking for Bee and he found him, his "health" is a non-issue.
[hr]

Without Shikaku, Gaara's powers are significantly weakened. He's Kazekage, but I don't think that's because of how powerful he is at this point.

I gotta say though Nindo, Sasuke's well down that list than you have him. He lost a significant amount of power with the removal of the CS, and he's going blind right now from using his MS so much, even at this early stage.

And getting his ass kicked by Kirabi certainly didn't help his case. I mean, the guy would've been dead twice without his teammates to bail him out.

If he gets EMS then you could arguably put him 4th, though I think that would be overly generous. But until then I'd put him below Yamato who has been shown to be able to seal Amaterasu.

I think Sasuke is still pretty damn powerful, even without CS. When he lost it, it was replaced with MS, which can dominate.

As for Gaara, I think he was significantly weakened by the loss of ichibi and doesn't have anything to make up for the loss (that we know of).

[Destined_One]

Even if he was not at 100%, how do we know that Bee was? Sasuke had 3 lives to try to beat Bee and didn't succeed with any of them. Sasuke went looking for Bee and he found him, his "health" is a non-issue.
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I think Sasuke is still pretty damn powerful, even without CS. When he lost it, it was replaced with MS, which can dominate.

As for Gaara, I think he was significantly weakened by the loss of ichibi and doesn't have anything to make up for the loss (that we know of).

My point was that he was stronger than what we saw... yes he may still have lost.. but that wasn't what I was arguing against.. I was just making a case for him, in terms of keeping a high rank... which u further complemented agreeing that he is pretty dam powerful:)

[DiligentSage]

Tsunade below Kakashi? I thought it was implied that each of the Sannin were more powerful than any present ninja (at least when they were introduced).

Anyhow, it's too difficult to get any sort of a real gauge on who is more powerful than who without them actually fighting each other. Too many circumstantial factors to take into account (different elements, unknown techniques, so on and such forth).

[Delbi]

Didn't Hachibi said it himself?
I think he said that it was his brother than cut his horn (when he's in 8-tail, one of his horn is cut off), and that he was the only able to stop him.

I'll look at the manga again, but I'm pretty sure it was implied that Raikage was stronger than his brother, the Hachibi.

Edit :
That's all I got from the manga for now : http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/04/
But I'm pretty sure I saw it somewhere else... I'll check again later.

Well, the Two Tails Jinchuriki was called the Second Strongest Ninja in her village. I think we can all agree that Killerbee is stronger than her, so that would make him the strongest, with his brother the Raikage likely the third, well now second strongest ninja in the village.

Anyway, as far as living ninja go, here's my list. (Keep in mind though, just because someone is stronger than someone else on this list, doesn't mean they can't be defeated by people who are weaker than them.)

1. Madara - He's basically invulernable, he has the best Space Time Jutsu there is, and he has a Sharigan. Need I say more?

2. Killerbee- With complete control over his Jinchuriki, along with his normal skills set and strength.

3. Naruto- The Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, master of Senjutsu, great at using Kage Bushins, massive chakra pool, can use a lot of Rasengans varients, and is a great thinker on the fly.

4. Nagato- While using the Pain bodies, he'd damn near unbeatable. His biggest draw back is that he is weak without them, or so it would seem.

5. Sasuke- Has the Sharigan and Mangekyo Sharigan. A master at using the Lightning Element, he is also extremely fast, and is all around one of the most well rounded ninja there is.

6. Kakashi- He hasn't been pronounced dead yet. Anyway, his resume speaks for itself.

7. Kisame- Massive chakra pool and Shamehada. Amazing at Suitons, he's just plain beast.

8. Gai- Capable of opening at least 6 chakra Gates, is the personal rival of Kakashi, and is full of the Spring Time of Youth!

9. Tsuande- She is low on the list, but until she shows she is useful in a fight, she isn't getting any higher. Despite that, she has shown significant power with her super strength and healing abilies, and she is very difficult to kill.

10. Yamato- has complete control over three elements due to his Kekkai Genkai, was an ANBU captain, and seems to be pretty strong.

Honorable mention:

Raikage- Know nothing about him, he may not be all that strong, and he strangely reminds me of Hercule from DBZ...

Kabuto- He was pretty strong prior to absorbing Orochimaru's remains, he may very well now be impossibly strong theres no telling.

Zetsu- Again, we know nothing about him, but he is in Akatsuki.

Danzou- Was an ANBU, probably a captain, and old people have proven to still be badass. (See Hiruzen and Chiyo)

Gaara- He still is a Kage, no telling how much power he lost due to his Biiju being extracted.

[Leos~]

1. Madara - Although we know little about him, we do know he can control the Kyuubi, and he has the MS. That alone puts him in the top ten, but the people he surrounds himself with is also a very good factor. He's able to get others (very powerful others) to follow him, and that's a strength in itself.

2. Nagato - Personally I think if Naruto had been there in the beginning, he would have lost this fight. If Deva realm would have had been useable when he fought Naruto, then Naruto would have lost (again, in my opinion).

3. Killerbee - Some may argue that Sasuke is stronger, but even if Sasuke was stronger in terms of strength/jutsu (which I disagree with 100%) Killerbee was still able to use him for his own goals of escaping the village. Pure fighting strength doesn't mean your the strongest (one could use Madara's ability to use a bunch of S-class shinobi criminals for his own gain as proof of this).

4. Sasuke - This is probably gonna piss alot of people off (my putting Sasuke above Naruto) and it kinda pisses me off - as I am not a fan of Sasuke at all - but I can't see Naruto breaking out of any of Sasuke's genjutsu. If it weren't for Naruto's weakness to genjutsu I'd call them about equal, or even edge Naruto out for the win, but with Naruto's glaring weakness to genjutsu I just can't see Sasuke losing.

5. Naruto - Extremely powerful, don't get me wrong, and one could easily argue that he is in the top 2/3 but I just don't feel that way. While he is possibly stronger in terms of strength and possibly speed and jutsu (i.e. rasenshuriken) I just can't see him defeating Sasuke with his weakness to genjutsu (as stated above) or even Killerbee mainly because of Killerbee's ability to work with his tailed beast (not to mention his greater experience). Although he defeated Nagato, when they fought Pain had already been fighting for a while while Naruto was fresh. Not to mention Nagato's inability to use Deva Realm - by and far his strongest asset - put Nagato at a disadvantage. Many will probably disagree with me, but I put him here because of this.

6. Tsunade - This was tough, but I'm going to have to give it to her. She is the hokage, and one of the 3 sannin, and is hard as hell to kill considering her medical jutsu. Her mastery of Taijutsu is also a good plus.

7. Kakashi - with Kamui, his new MS technique, along with the other powers the Sharingan give him, he's powerful. That alone is good, but he has tons of jutsu, the experience to know when/how to use them, he's a strong contender. Personally, I think he's still alive (if he's not, he had a pretty horrible death scene. It'd really piss me off if that's how he died >.>)

8. Kisame - I almost decided to put Gaara here, but decided against it because we don't really know much about Gaara now that he's lost the One Tail. Arguably his greatest asset is his ability to absorb chakra with his sword, the Samehada. Some could argue that he is stronger, but I don't see him beating any of the above.

9. Gai - Probably one of the best at Taijutsu. His speed, strength, and ability to open the eight celestial gates make him lethal. The main reason I chose Kisame over him was because Gai had to open 6 celestial gates to defeat a Kisame (I don't really know if you could call it a clone) that was at 30% power.

10. Gaara - It's really tough to judge where to put him, because we really don't know how losing the One Tail has affected him. I decided to give him the benifit of the doubt, and if his powers are anywhere close to what they were before his capture, he could probably be placed higher.

Some honorable mentions

Raikage - definitely one of the stronger shinobi, and most probably able to make it on the list easily. Without knowing anything about his fighting ability though, I just don't know where I would place him. Until we learn more about him I'll just have to leave him out.

Zetsu - Again, we know next to nothing about him. In terms of scouting/recon, he could arguably be the best but we don't know anything about his fighting abilities.

Yamato - A very strong shinobi, and if he was able to master his ability to control the bijuu, or get anywhere close to as good as the first hokage was, he would definitely be able to knock someone off the list for sure.

Kabuto - Before his absorption of Orochimaru, he wouldn't really be worth mentioning. But now, he could very well be a solid contender. Again, the problem is we don't know much about him now.

[Destined_One]

1. Madara - Although we know little about him, we do know he can control the Kyuubi, and he has the MS. That alone puts him in the top ten, but the people he surrounds himself with is also a very good factor. He's able to get others (very powerful others) to follow him, and that's a strength in itself.

2. Nagato - Personally I think if Naruto had been there in the beginning, he would have lost this fight. If Deva realm would have had been useable when he fought Naruto, then Naruto would have lost (again, in my opinion).

3. Killerbee - Some may argue that Sasuke is stronger, but even if Sasuke was stronger in terms of strength/jutsu (which I disagree with 100%) Killerbee was still able to use him for his own goals of escaping the village. Pure fighting strength doesn't mean your the strongest (one could use Madara's ability to use a bunch of S-class shinobi criminals for his own gain as proof of this).

4. Sasuke - This is probably gonna piss alot of people off (my putting Sasuke above Naruto) and it kinda pisses me off - as I am not a fan of Sasuke at all - but I can't see Naruto breaking out of any of Sasuke's genjutsu. If it weren't for Naruto's weakness to genjutsu I'd call them about equal, or even edge Naruto out for the win, but with Naruto's glaring weakness to genjutsu I just can't see Sasuke losing.

5. Naruto - Extremely powerful, don't get me wrong, and one could easily argue that he is in the top 2/3 but I just don't feel that way. While he is possibly stronger in terms of strength and possibly speed and jutsu (i.e. rasenshuriken) I just can't see him defeating Sasuke with his weakness to genjutsu (as stated above) or even Killerbee mainly because of Killerbee's ability to work with his tailed beast (not to mention his greater experience). Although he defeated Nagato, when they fought Pain had already been fighting for a while while Naruto was fresh. Not to mention Nagato's inability to use Deva Realm - by and far his strongest asset - put Nagato at a disadvantage. Many will probably disagree with me, but I put him here because of this.

6. Tsunade - This was tough, but I'm going to have to give it to her. She is the hokage, and one of the 3 sannin, and is hard as hell to kill considering her medical jutsu. Her mastery of Taijutsu is also a good plus.

7. Kakashi - with Kamui, his new MS technique, along with the other powers the Sharingan give him, he's powerful. That alone is good, but he has tons of jutsu, the experience to know when/how to use them, he's a strong contender. Personally, I think he's still alive (if he's not, he had a pretty horrible death scene. It'd really piss me off if that's how he died >.>)

8. Kisame - I almost decided to put Gaara here, but decided against it because we don't really know much about Gaara now that he's lost the One Tail. Arguably his greatest asset is his ability to absorb chakra with his sword, the Samehada. Some could argue that he is stronger, but I don't see him beating any of the above.

9. Gai - Probably one of the best at Taijutsu. His speed, strength, and ability to open the eight celestial gates make him lethal. The main reason I chose Kisame over him was because Gai had to open 6 celestial gates to defeat a Kisame (I don't really know if you could call it a clone) that was at 30% power.

10. Gaara - It's really tough to judge where to put him, because we really don't know how losing the One Tail has affected him. I decided to give him the benifit of the doubt, and if his powers are anywhere close to what they were before his capture, he could probably be placed higher.

Some honorable mentions

Raikage - definitely one of the stronger shinobi, and most probably able to make it on the list easily. Without knowing anything about his fighting ability though, I just don't know where I would place him. Until we learn more about him I'll just have to leave him out.

Zetsu - Again, we know next to nothing about him. In terms of scouting/recon, he could arguably be the best but we don't know anything about his fighting abilities.

Yamato - A very strong shinobi, and if he was able to master his ability to control the bijuu, or get anywhere close to as good as the first hokage was, he would definitely be able to knock someone off the list for sure.

Kabuto - Before his absorption of Orochimaru, he wouldn't really be worth mentioning. But now, he could very well be a solid contender. Again, the problem is we don't know much about him now.

I agree mostly, I believe both Naruto & Sasuke can be moved around each other... the genjutsu argument is based on his fight's against Itachi, which might be a little unfair seeing as he's probably the best genjutsu user in the manga, but I do see what you mean... also where you said Naruto was fresh, he had just finished training, its his stamina that literally makes him fresh for the entire battle lol (Just ask Kakuzu :p)

Id have yamato in the top 10, but i guess that's just personal preference, and as for you suggestion about kabuto not being worth a mention... he was stated as being on the same lvl as kakashi, and footed it with Tsunade who u have as high as 6th... I guess it all stems down to his lack of screen time and his shippuuden claim to fame being blasted away by 3 tail naruto (remembering Deidara was overwhelmed by 2 tails)... which he didn't look rather worried about, and stil managed to have a conversation and escape... Id have him number 10 from part 1 evidence alone, especially seeing Garaa has been severely weakened... either him or Yamato.. but all in all it seems most people agree on the majority

[Franckie]

In no particular order:

- Nagato
- Madara
- Killer Bee
- Naruto
- Sasuke
- Kisame
- Raikage
- Kabuto
- Zetsu
- Konan

[Forever_Melody]

Ok guys, I'd rather have some kind of reason as to why you picked said characters and if you want to debate someone else's pick, try and provide some kind of thought as to why you disagree. I don't want heated debates as at the end of the day, you're arguing an opinion, which is proper to a person.

[jdw]

In no particular order:
- Konan

Is there any particular reason for this pick? I am not saying she does not belong, but she has shown some skills and doesn't seem really strong at all. If she gets a little wet, anyone can have their way with her. She kinda seems like the Ten Ten of akatsuki.

[Franckie]

Is there any particular reason for this pick? I am not saying she does not belong, but she has shown some skills and doesn't seem really strong at all. She kinda seems like the Ten Ten of akatsuki.

Konan might have lost her debut fight, but all of Akatsuki - the exceptions being Deidara and Nagato - have lost their debt fights.

She might be Akatsuki's "Tenten", but that still means she's stronger than at least 90% of the ninja population. Also, people such as Kakashi, Gai, and Hidan haven't shown anything that allow them to counter Konan's peculiar abilities.

[Delbi]

Konan might have lost her debut fight, but all of Akatsuki - the exceptions being Deidara and Nagato - have lost their debt fights.

She might be Akatsuki's "Tenten", but that still means she's stronger than at least 90% of the ninja population. Also, people such as Kakashi, Gai, and Hidan haven't shown anything that allow them to counter Konan's peculiar abilities.

Well actually, no memeber of Akatsuki aside from Konan have lost their debute fights.

Deiadra beat Gaara
Sasori beat Kankuro
Itachi beat Kakashi and comp then retreated
Kisame played to a draw with Asuma and comp.
Kakazu and Hidan defeated and captured Yugito
Orochimaru technically "won" his fight with Hiruzen, but at a high cost
Zetsu hasn't fought
Pain defeated Jiraiya
And Madara really hasn't fought anyone

In any event, Konan is a part of Akatsuki, so she is strong, she was trained by Jiraiya afterall.

But saying Kakashi and Gai can't counter Konan is rediculous. First off, Kakashi is very good at using Suiton jutsu, Konan's number one weakness. Then there's all of his other Kickass jutsu that he could kill her with.

Gai on the other hand, is one of the fastest ninja in the manga. Konan's way of killing seems to be smothering, and paper Kunai. I wonder if she could smother Gai when he opens up 6 chakra gates and lights his fists on fire and punches and burns her to oblivion lol.

[jdw]

Well, I cannot lie, I guess I am saying she doesn't belong. Gai has the gates, and Hidan has his immortality. She may be able to suffocate him but he will just live on anyway. She doesn't strike me as smart or particularly clever, at least not in Shika's league, so being ordinary isn't on her side. Kakashi is able to use earth element to hide underground or whatever, and has been able to avoid hundreds of elemental attacks from people far more threatening than Konan. In fact, he could just soak her with a water technique and call it a day. Though it is your opinion, I am calling shenanigans on this selection. some of the other selections are in the "maybe" category because we know nothing about them so I give them the benefit of the doubt, but Konan is just kinda weak.

As for people losing debut fights, it doesn't matter if they look strong doing so and make up for it later. She has not done that.

[Franckie]

Well actually, no memeber of Akatsuki aside from Konan have lost their debute fights.

Deiadra beat Gaara: No comment
Sasori beat Kankuro: Forgot about him
Itachi beat Kakashi and comp then retreated: Retreating counts as a loss
Kisame played to a draw with Asuma and comp.: Retreating counts as a loss
Kakazu and Hidan defeated and captured Yugito: Occurred offscreen, so it doesn't count
Orochimaru technically "won" his fight with Hiruzen, but at a high cost: Oro isn't a member of Akatsuki anymore
Zetsu hasn't fought: No comment
Pain defeated Jiraiya: No comment
And Madara really hasn't fought anyone: He ran away

In any event, Konan is a part of Akatsuki, so she is strong, she was trained by Jiraiya afterall.

See the bolded please.


But saying Kakashi and Gai can't counter Konan is rediculous. First off, Kakashi is very good at using Suiton jutsu, Konan's number one weakness. Then there's all of his other Kickass jutsu that he could kill her with.

Proof please that Konan is weak against Suiton attacks.


Gai on the other hand, is one of the fastest ninja in the manga. Konan's way of killing seems to be smothering, and paper Kunai. I wonder if she could smother Gai when he opens up 6 chakra gates and lights his fists on fire and punches and burns her to oblivion lol.

Gai's speed is useless when Konan immobilizes him with her paper, which is easy to do since Gai is a close-combat fighter.

Konan took a katon to the face and walked away quite fine.


Well, I cannot lie, I guess I am saying she doesn't belong. Gai has the gates, and Hidan has his immortality. She may be able to suffocate him but he will just live on anyway. She doesn't strike me as smart or particularly clever, at least not in Shika's league, so being ordinary isn't on her side. Kakashi is able to use earth element to hide underground or whatever, and has been able to avoid hundreds of elemental attacks from people far more threatening than Konan. In fact, he could just soak her with a water technique and call it a day. Though it is your opinion, I am calling shenanigans on this selection. some of the other selections are in the "maybe" category because we know nothing about them so I give them the benefit of the doubt, but Konan is just kinda weak.

What good does Gai's attacks do for him against Konan when she transforms her body into paper? What good does Hidan's immortality do for him when Konan counters it by decapitating Hidan's head after immobilizing him? What good does Kakashi's ability to dig underground do for him when Konan is out of range for all of Kakashi's attacks except for Kamui?

Where do you get the idea that Konan is weak against water?


As for people losing debut fights, it doesn't matter if they look strong doing so and make up for it later. She has not done that.

She's already started by killing plenty of Konoha-nins without a getting pummelled in the process. Also, there's still the matter that the characters I've listed still have no effective means to fight her.

[Delbi]

See the bolded please.
Itachi handed Kurenai and Kakashi their asses.
Kisame was whooping on Asuma until Kakashi showed up.
Deiadra beat Gaara, everything is fair in love and war.
Hirashima fought Madara off screen for the most part, the fight still happened. When we were introduced to Kakazu and Hidan, they faced a fully transformed Jinchuriki and won, showing us how powerful they were.



Proof please that Konan is weak against Suiton attacks.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/372/07/ Here Jiraiya soaks Konan with oil. If Kakashi did the same with water it would have the same effect. Paper does not function normally while wet, thats simple physics.




Gai's speed is useless when Konan immobilizes him with her paper, which is easy to do since Gai is a close-combat fighter.

Gaara's sand, which seems much faster than Konans paper, could not catch Lee. Gai is much faster than Lee, not to mention if she did smother him, he does have the Eight Gates which can be used to help him break out.

Also, Konan did not eat that Katon, she blocked it. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/371/16/ In the bottom right panel you can see the ash of paper above the cloud of smoke. In the next panel she is re-forming herself.



She's already started by killing plenty of Konoha-nins without a getting pummelled in the process. Also, there's still the matter that the characters I've listed still have no effective means to fight her.

She fought fodder nin's, none of who are anywhere near as powerful as Kakashi or Gai.

And for the record, her turning into paper does not make her invulnerable. She can still be electricuted, the paper can still be burnt or soaked, and explosive tags will still catch the paper on fire or destroy it.

She is strong, but to say stronger than Kakashi and Gai is foolish. I could see her immobilizing Hidan, but she won't defeat Gai or Kakashi.

[Forever_Melody]

It's hard to argue Konan because we haven't seen her fight really. I mean, all we've seen from her so far is her Paper Bushin soooooo. I mean, I don't judge Naruto's performance on his KB >.>

Also, oil is the weakness of Konan's paper. Nothing else was stated to bein the manga. Water isn't oil as it lacks the sticky properties of oil and isn't confirmed to stop Konan. There is an underlining that water may stop Konan as Pain had to stop his rain for Konan to use her jutsu, but once again, no explicit statement.

Fire also has been used on her and Konan survived it without much of a scathe so I'd say fire also doesn't completely burn her paper.

Therefore, seems simple physics doesn't apply to Konan's enhanced chakra paper.

[Leos~]

I agree mostly, I believe both Naruto & Sasuke can be moved around each other... the genjutsu argument is based on his fight's against Itachi, which might be a little unfair seeing as he's probably the best genjutsu user in the manga, but I do see what you mean... also where you said Naruto was fresh, he had just finished training, its his stamina that literally makes him fresh for the entire battle lol (Just ask Kakuzu :p)

Id have yamato in the top 10, but i guess that's just personal preference, and as for you suggestion about kabuto not being worth a mention... he was stated as being on the same lvl as kakashi, and footed it with Tsunade who u have as high as 6th... I guess it all stems down to his lack of screen time and his shippuuden claim to fame being blasted away by 3 tail naruto (remembering Deidara was overwhelmed by 2 tails)... which he didn't look rather worried about, and stil managed to have a conversation and escape... Id have him number 10 from part 1 evidence alone, especially seeing Garaa has been severely weakened... either him or Yamato.. but all in all it seems most people agree on the majority

You know, I could have easily replaced Gaara with Yamato, but based on what we saw before Gaara lost Shukaku I would have to go with him. Personally, I'm giving Gaara the benefit of the doubt and assuming the only thing he lost was his auomatic defense and a chunk of his chakra pool. But you could easily stick Yamato in that spot.

About Kabuto, if we were talking about part 1 he'd definitely probably be up there. But then again, Kakashi would be lower on there as well. So much has changed since part 1 that he hasn't really impressed me enough to put him up there. Plus I'm still really dissapointed over the character he became in Part 2. In Part 1 he was one of my favorite characters; he was a wild card that no one really knew who's side he was on. To turn him into another orochimaru zealot was really dissapointing -_- Ah well, I have hopes that his new absorption of Orochimaru will bring back his awesomeness (he better not just become Orochimaru. That'd be an even worse waste of his character >.>). If that happens he'll probably be bumped up into the top 10.

[jodi]

well, besides that Jiraiya soaked Konan with oil, Deva Pain had to stop the rain so she could use her jutsu, so suiton might probably knock out her paper abilities
of course that she can have more than that... she probably has.

[insid3rkill3r]

My list,,,

1-Madara Uchiha

2-Nagato - with his bodies ( Yes Naruto defeated him,,, but God realm wasnt recharged and he had already used a shit ton of chakra,,,)

3-Sasuke (Yes he "should" have died twice against bee,,,, but if the fight was to be done again,,, Sasuke would win for sure now that he has control of his MS,,, and give him time to fully heal too....)

4-Gangsta Bee ( Could be Raikage instead,,,, but we dont know much about him)

5-Naruto ( Yes he is strong as fuck,,, but he doesnt have the abilities to really counter some1 like Bee controlling his Bijuu like Sasuke,,, and i still believe Sasuke would win w/o a doubt if he was to use his MS,,,,)

6-Kakashi

7-Tsunade

8-Gai

9-Kabuto

10-Gaara?

[Franckie]

well, besides that Jiraiya soaked Konan with oil, Deva Pain had to stop the rain so she could use her jutsu, so suiton might probably knock out her paper abilities
of course that she can have more than that... she probably has.

It's highly unlikely that water will do anything but pose a minor annoyance to her. When Pein stopped the rain, he did so after telling Konan to prepare to scout for the intruder, and having clear weather maximizes a person's scouting abilities. Also, the fact that she isn't incinerated by fire proves that her paper jutsu isn't normal. On a side note, it'd be really weird for Konan to learn paper jutsu in a land where it rains all the time, and to have water render her attacks useless.

[Forever_Melody]

Actually, now that you mention it Franckie, in the flashbacks, Konan DID use a paper jutsu and it was raining(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/)) Therefore, I think we have a certain confirmation that water doesn't incapacitate her jutsu.

Regardless, I think Madara(Akatsuki's boss) would know better than to let anyone in his organization. "I'm Pain's friend" IMO doesn't sound like a valid reason to Madara to let her in Akatsuki. She could've easily been his friend outside the organization -_-; Konan must have some type of redeeming quality which helps Akatsuki's goals.

[Weapon_X]

1) Madara Uchiha:

Sharingan, MS, EMS, his powerful chakra, immense strength (stopping Suigetsu’s sword with a single arm). Not to mention the best Space/Time Ninjutsu. Longest character to ever live. That’s gotta count for #1.

2) Naruto Uzumaki:

Excellent at using Kage Bunshins, different versions of Rasengan. Senjutsu master, can summon toads in battles, has intelligence and strategies when in fights. Large chakra reserves, determination. And he has the strongest Biju sealed inside him.

3) Negato:

With the 6 Realms of Pain and the strongest Doujutsu in his arsenal truly makes him nearly unbeatable. Deva Realm controls gravity, attract or repel. Animal Realm summons nearly any animal. Preta realm absorbs any Jutsu (defensive). Human realm reads other people’s minds and can rip out people’s souls. Asura realm is just a tank. And the Naraka realm which can revive any dead Pain body. Here you have some deadly Jutsus.

4) Sasuke Uchiha:

Sharingan, MS, normal Taijutsu skills, excellent at Genjutsu, same with Ninjutsu. Fire and Lightning techniques, different versions of Lightning tachniques. He has Kirin, Sasuke’s strongest attack. He is super fast.

5) Killer Bee:

Complete control over his Biju. Taijutsu skills and physical strength is immense. Sword skills are excellent, as well as his other skills.

6) Kisame Hoshigaki:

Samehada, largest chakra reserve. Great Suiton skills and Jutsus. Strongest of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist. He is just a tank.

7) Tsunade:

Raw strength, excellent Taijutsu skills. Medical Ninjutsu, summoning technique (Katsuyu). Sozo Saisei, recreating all organs and tissues. Sozo Saisei with Katsuyu.

8) Kakashi:

Experience, mastery of different Ninjutsus, good at Genjutsuand Taijutsu. Elemental techniques, Sharingan, MS. He is an all rounder but shame his chakra reserve is low.

9) Yamato:

Wood element techniques. Tailed Beast supression, earth and water element techniques. Training in ANBU Black Ops, tracking and trapping opponents. Being decisive, intelligent, good taijutsu skills.

10) Konan:

The fact that she was just using a paper clone in Konoha showed me how powerful she was. And that paper clone never got destroyed at all, must have some strong techniques or chakra reserve to maintain it.

Others:
Danzou,Raikage,Zetsu, Kabuto. These would also be in the top 10 but in the current situation, there is little info about their powers. But we know these are high level Ninjas. That’s certain.:)
[hr]

Actually, now that you mention it Franckie, in the flashbacks, Konan DID use a paper jutsu and it was raining(link (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/)) Therefore, I think we have a certain confirmation that water doesn't incapacitate her jutsu.

Regardless, I think Madara(Akatsuki's boss) would know better than to let anyone in his organization. "I'm Pain's friend" IMO doesn't sound like a valid reason to Madara to let her in Akatsuki. She could've easily been his friend outside the organization -_-; Konan must have some type of redeeming quality which helps Akatsuki's goals.

Hey,your link directs us to a Bleach Chapter. :p I think you were meant to put this link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/373/11/. Where she is using her paper Shurikens during a rain.

And yeah,Suiton wouldn't work on Konan. But Jirayai's oil did but then again there is a diffference between the matter of stickyness. Konan is a strong character, she still will be once Kishi develops her more.

[Lelo]

Alive:
Madara
Nagato
Naruto
Sasuke
Killerbee
Kabutoro
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame
Gaara

Dead:
Minato:tem
Itachi
Jiraiya
Sandaime
Shodaime
Orochimaru?
Nidaime
Kakuzu
Diedara
Sasori
[hr]
Does everybody really think Gaaras that weak now. He should still make the top ten IMO

[WaveBossa]

1.Madara
2.Naruto
3.Naruto Clone
4.Naruto Clone
5.Naruto Clone
6.Naruto Clone
7.Naruto Clone
8.Naruto Clone
9.Naruto Clone
10.Naruto Clone

[Karma]

Why people putting sasuke over 8 tail host? don't everyone see that the 8 tail host actually didn't want to fight him.. and who put sasuke over naruto? those lists y'all have don't make sense after seeing what naruto did with pain.... and trusts me.. even itachi healthy would have lost to pain without knowing is secret... so make some better lists....

[Darth Executor]

Madara
Naruto
Nagato
Tsunade (she blocked a freaking nuke, I don't care what Raikage can do, it's not likely he can top it).
Raikage (it's explicitly stated he's stronger than killerbee, he's described in a panel as the strongest man in the cloud village, don't feel like looking for it).
Killerbee
Danzou (he's being set up as a main villain, no way he's a pussy. Might even be above raikage but since I have nothing to go on he's staying here)
Gaara (he still has his powers, and I'm willing to bet that when we see him again, and we will, he'll be just as strong as he was pre-shukaku. Maybe stronger now that he can get some sleep).
Sasuke (only reason why he isn't above gaara is because gaara can fly and use sand to keep himself out of view)
Gai (with kakashi probably dead he gets the number 10 spot. Even if kakashi was alive, I think Gai could give him a run for his money).
[hr]

Why people putting sasuke over 8 tail host? don't everyone see that the 8 tail host actually didn't want to fight him..

Be that as it may, as far as we know there's nothing hachibi can do about amaterasu. It's also why it's reasonable to put him above naruto: there's nothing naruto can do about Ama.


those lists y'all have don't make sense after seeing what naruto did with pain....

I put sasuke well below naruto and pain, but it's rock-paper-scissors really. Based on their skills, Sasuke can beat naruto who can beat nagato who can beat sasuke.

[Delbi]

Why people putting sasuke over 8 tail host? don't everyone see that the 8 tail host actually didn't want to fight him.. and who put sasuke over naruto? those lists y'all have don't make sense after seeing what naruto did with pain.... and trusts me.. even itachi healthy would have lost to pain without knowing is secret... so make some better lists....

In many ways Sasuke can be considered stronger than Killerbee, its just that Killerbee is a horrible matchup for Sasuke.

No one alive but Killerbee can be unaffected my Tsyukiyomi and no one but him and Madara can escape Ameratsu. Those two jutsu alone put Sasuke head and shoulders above almost everyone.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

My list:

1. Nagato/Pein
2. Madara(Lol. Funny, i was just reading the thread about Minato been overrate. But compare to Madara, Minato isn't overrated by any stretch of the imagination. Madara is probably the most overrated character i have ever seen. All we know about the guy is that he has fail at about everything, and got his ass whop by Shodaime.)
3. Killerbee
4. Naruto
5. Sasuke
6. Kakashi
7. Kisame
8. Gai
9. Tsunade
10. Yamato

[jdw]

In many ways Sasuke can be considered stronger than Killerbee, its just that Killerbee is a horrible matchup for Sasuke.

No one alive but Killerbee can be unaffected my Tsyukiyomi and no one but him and Madara can escape Ameratsu. Those two jutsu alone put Sasuke head and shoulders above almost everyone.

Madara could probably beat Sasuke's Tsukiyomi. It is a guess, but it is the introductory technique to MS. After all these years, he has to have come up with something (especially knowing that he could potentially face Itachi or Sasuke some day).

[segua]

1. Uchiha Madara
2. Nagato
3. Killerbee
4. Danzou
5. Konan
6. Kisame
7. Uzumake Naruto
7. Uchiha Sasuke
8. Tsunade
9. Zetsu

[Delbi]

1.Senju Hashirama
2.Uchiha Madara
3.Sarutobi Hiruzen
4.Hanzou
5.Nagato
6.Jiraiya
7.Itachi
8.Killerbee
9.Naruto
10.Tsunade

How do you rate Tsuande over Kakashi and Sasuke? And I'm not sure how Hanzou is that strong since we haven't seen him fight, and he was defeated by Nagato. His win against the Sannin was when they weren't at their peaks yet or so it would seem.

[jdw]

1.Senju Hashirama
2.Uchiha Madara
3.Sarutobi Hiruzen
4.Hanzou
5.Nagato
6.Jiraiya
7.Itachi
8.Killerbee
9.Naruto
10.Tsunade

Half of the people on that list are dead. And if you are including dead people on purpose, which is fine, no Minato? Oro? Rikudou?

[segua]

Half of the people on that list are dead. And if you are including dead people on purpose, which is fine, no Minato? Oro? Rikudou?

Oh whoops. guess I mis-read the topic silly me. A change is in order than.

[wildG]

1st. Uchiha Madara
2nd. Negato
3rd. Danzo (I am sure the duuder has something really filthy under his sleeves and i consider him to be on par with sarutobi since he rivaled with him for the place of the hokage)
4th. Kisame
5th. Zutsu
6th. Raikage
7th. Tsunade Senju ( we didn't see her fighting yet, but i put my money shes godlike! Not to mention shes an original senju...)
8th. Sasuke
9th. Naruto
10th. Killerbee

[THM Nindo]

1st. Uchiha Madara
2nd. Negato
3rd. Danzo (I am sure the duuder has something really filthy under his sleeves and i consider him to be on par with sarutobi since he rivaled with him for the place of the hokage)
4th. Kisame
5th. Zutsu
6th. Raikage
7th. Tsunade Senju ( we didn't see her fighting yet, but i put my money shes godlike! Not to mention shes an original senju...)
8th. Sasuke
9th. Naruto
10th. Killerbee

You're telling me that you think that Tsunade would be able to defeat Killerbee?!

Seriously, I think she will be destroyed by him.
Tsunade has only two assets : Healing and Close Combat.

If she fight him, she will indeed need healing, because if she goes into Close combat against him, she's going to be stab by 7 swords in less than 1 minute...

_______________________

Note to everyone:

It's nice to see that mostly everyone agrees on one thing :
- The strongest shinobi alive is Uchiha Madara.

[wildG]

You're telling me that you think that Tsunade would be able to defeat Killerbee?!

Seriously, I think she will be destroyed by him.
Tsunade has only two assets : Healing and Close Combat.

If she fight him, she will indeed need healing, because if she goes into Close combat against him, she's going to be stab by 7 swords in less than 1 minute...

_______________________

Note to everyone:

It's nice to see that mostly everyone agrees on one thing :
- The strongest shinobi alive is Uchiha Madara.
i have a feeling xD

[Karma]

Madara
Naruto
Nagato
Tsunade (she blocked a freaking nuke, I don't care what Raikage can do, it's not likely he can top it).
Raikage (it's explicitly stated he's stronger than killerbee, he's described in a panel as the strongest man in the cloud village, don't feel like looking for it).
Killerbee
Danzou (he's being set up as a main villain, no way he's a pussy. Might even be above raikage but since I have nothing to go on he's staying here)
Gaara (he still has his powers, and I'm willing to bet that when we see him again, and we will, he'll be just as strong as he was pre-shukaku. Maybe stronger now that he can get some sleep).
Sasuke (only reason why he isn't above gaara is because gaara can fly and use sand to keep himself out of view)
Gai (with kakashi probably dead he gets the number 10 spot. Even if kakashi was alive, I think Gai could give him a run for his money).



Be that as it may, as far as we know there's nothing hachibi can do about amaterasu. It's also why it's reasonable to put him above naruto: there's nothing naruto can do about Ama.



I put sasuke well below naruto and pain, but it's rock-paper-scissors really. Based on their skills, Sasuke can beat naruto who can beat nagato who can beat sasuke. Listen.. Hachibi and is beast against vs sasuke and 3 more people.. and say that the match would have ended the same if it was Hachibi vs sasuke alone?

plus who say that Hachibi would let sasuke get him with amaterasu the next time they battle? he experience it and might have way to counter it..

plus i doubt you guys would want to put sasuke vs naruto either.. because from part 1.. Naruto could kill sasuke if he actually mean it.. he only want to bring him back alive while sasuke planning to kill naruto until the end he got a change of heart..

Naruto is still alot stronger than sasuke..

[Belisar]

why does everyone say that kabuto wasn't worth before he absorbed orochimaru's body? he was on kakashi's level in the beginning and nearly killed tsunade alone.

and yamato is clearly overrated. in the fight naruto vs orochimaru he admit that he had no chance to even get close.

[jdw]

Naruto is still alot stronger than sasuke..

Naruto is my favorite character but this is just plain wrong. He and Sasuke are close. I think you are right that Naruto could have beaten him at VOTE, but don't get carried away about the power gap. I even think he could beat Sasuke now, possibly, but it would be a tough fight. Naruto doesn't have control of Kyuubi, and he has no reliable genjutsu counter. Once he has control of Kyuubi, he will have a reliable genjutsu counter (that is, if Sasuke cannot suppress Kyuubi once Naruto obtains control). The fight has a lot of nuance built in because they are still growing and learning.

[Delbi]

why does everyone say that kabuto wasn't worth before he absorbed orochimaru's body? he was on kakashi's level in the beginning and nearly killed tsunade alone.

and yamato is clearly overrated. in the fight naruto vs orochimaru he admit that he had no chance to even get close.

Kabuto got trainwrecked by part 1 Naruto. Orochimaru said he was on Kakashi's level, and that was an unfair assessment. When you compare what Kabuto has done to what Kakashi has done, Kabuto doesn't even come close.

As far as Yamato being overated, yea he is. His Kekkai Genkai is what makes him strong, he has shown to have great ninjutsu aside from Moukton thought. But aside from that, he hasn't shown anything spectacular.

[KalelDaNinja11]

i'm not going to judged naruto defense against genjutsu because in that fight it was against itachi (genjutsu king)

[M3J]

Madara
Pain
Killerbee
Sasuke
Naruto
Yamato
Kisame
Tsunade
Gaara
Konnan (based on what I've seen)

idk <_<

[Succubus]

1. Nagato/Pain
2. Itachi
3. Madara
4. Killerbee
5. Naruto
6. Sasuke

rest

[Spike Spiegal]

1.Madara
2.Zetsu(I think he'll surprise everybody)
3.Naruto
4.Pain/Nagato
5.Killer Bee
6.Danzou(again just my assumption)
7.Kakashi
8.Sasuke
9.Kisame
10.Tsunade

excluding Zetsu and Danzou...

1.Madara
2.Naruto
3.Pain/Nagato
4.Killer Bee
5.Kakashi
6.Sasuke
7.Kisame
8.Tsunade
9.Gai
10.Gaara/Sakura/Konan/Yamato

[Destined_One]

Kabuto got trainwrecked by part 1 Naruto. Orochimaru said he was on Kakashi's level, and that was an unfair assessment. When you compare what Kabuto has done to what Kakashi has done, Kabuto doesn't even come close.

As far as Yamato being overated, yea he is. His Kekkai Genkai is what makes him strong, he has shown to have great ninjutsu aside from Moukton thought. But aside from that, he hasn't shown anything spectacular.

The only difference is Kakashi has had more screen time, Kabuto was impressive against Tsunade, and was hit from naruto, because he underestimated him, and because the plot called for a representation of the Rasengan's power... Also we forget that he survived the rasengan and nearly killed Naruto...

Apart from 3 tail naruto, there has not been another instance where Kabuto has even come close to been shown up... when Yamato, Naruto and Hinata had him surrounded he still escaped...

Futhermore When characters state that a Ninja is on a certain lvl it is 'cannon'.. IDK why people refuse to accept it, Like kishi doesn't know his own characters... just like when he said Naruto was on Kakashi's lvl, it is what it is... Lastly, Kakashi has clearly Improved since part 1... I guess we wont know if Kabuto is any stronger til we see him... but as strong as kakashi from part 1 still might warrant him top 10 atm.. especially seeing as Many elite ninja have passed

[Rachwal]

1. Madara~ this ones obvious

2. Nagato~ pain took out almost all of kanoha and fought naruto than naruto got revived and naruto had that damn healer thing on him the whole battle

3. Sasuke~ lets face it hes gonna get the ems and he has the strongest fire nin jutsu, the strongest lightning ninjutsu and the strongest genjutsu. not only that but hes above average in all other aspects

4. Naruto~ sasuke is the next villian he has to overcome but hes starting to grow into one of the strongest shinobi. its now really evident why hes the main character

5. Killer bee~ he said that his brother was only able to dodge his punch thats all. and controlling a beast is pretty amazing. but he wont catch sasuke off gaurd again. sasuke has that vageta aspect to him.

6. Kisame~ well hes the man.

7. Gaara~ going out on a limb here but im putting gaara up here hes the earth version of kisame and hes the kazekage.

8. Kakashi~ kishi isnt gonna kill off one of his major characters withought a bang. although i wouldnt mind, thats what happens in war but until that fire goes out imo hes alive.

9. Kabuto~ claimed to be on par with kakashi but i have a feeling that was a bluff. his healing skills are amazing and well heobsorbed orochimaru which definately puts him up there.

10. Raikage this guy has go to have some skill to him and i will really enjoy watching him fight.

Honorable mentions
gai~ i have a bias against gai he only has one skill and hes an idiot which is why i didnt put him on my list. hes an insult to the other characters

Tsunade~ she just seems like a healer to me sure she has strength but i think her speed is lacking.

Konan~ i think she is weak i think she joined because she is important to nagato and i dont think that she really is all that strong.

[Delbi]

The only difference is Kakashi has had more screen time, Kabuto was impressive against Tsunade, and was hit from naruto, because he underestimated him, and because the plot called for a representation of the Rasengan's power... Also we forget that he survived the rasengan and nearly killed Naruto...

Apart from 3 tail naruto, there has not been another instance where Kabuto has even come close to been shown up... when Yamato, Naruto and Hinata had him surrounded he still escaped...

Futhermore When characters state that a Ninja is on a certain lvl it is 'cannon'.. IDK why people refuse to accept it, Like kishi doesn't know his own characters... just like when he said Naruto was on Kakashi's lvl, it is what it is... Lastly, Kakashi has clearly Improved since part 1... I guess we wont know if Kabuto is any stronger til we see him... but as strong as kakashi from part 1 still might warrant him top 10 atm.. especially seeing as Many elite ninja have passed

Kabuto fought an out of practice Tsuande who was scared of blood, if he fought her now, the fight would be much different.

Also, Kabuto is a pussey. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/16/ Naruto has his head pierced by a Kunai, and Kabuto still can't escape his grasp. Keep in mind, this is a Naruto who can barely stand, let alone fight, and he still K.O.'s Kabuto with a Rasengan.

As for characters comments, they aren't cannon. Orochimaru expressed his opinion, he was not stating a fact. There are no real "facts" in the manga as far as strength of ninja ect because there is not a narrator, there are characters voicing their opinions.

We've seen things that were once "facts" been proved false. Such as Tsyukiyomi being unable to be broken, both Sasuke and Killerbee broke it.

[segua]

I don't think Kabuto should be underestimated. Even with Yamato, post-time skip Naruto and post-time skip Hinata, they failed to capture Kabuto. The guy is a slippery guy. Now, you have Anko and Sai and possibly Yamato tracking Kabuto down? They can't catch the guy! That's how damn good he is.

Tsunade also expressed that Kabuto's medical ninjutsu might even be better than her at her peak. In a great demonstration of skill, after his body coordination has been scrambled, Kabuto was able to regain around 80% control of his body back. Lastly, he was also smart enough not to engage Kakashi. I think that it was Kakashi's first experience with Kabuto that prompted Kakashi to start seriously training. Even then, Kakashi failed to nab Kabuto.

People have to give due respect to Kabuto in my opinion. Though, Kabuto is an arrogant bastard also.

[Destined_One]

Kabuto fought an out of practice Tsuande who was scared of blood, if he fought her now, the fight would be much different.

Also, Kabuto is a pussey. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/16/ Naruto has his hand pierced by a Kunai, and Kabuto still can't escape his grasp. Keep in mind, this is a Naruto who can barely stand, let alone fight, and he still K.O.'s Kabuto with a Rasengan.

As for characters comments, they aren't cannon. Orochimaru expressed his opinion, he was not stating a fact. There are no real "facts" in the manga as far as strength of ninja ect because there is not a narrator, there are characters voicing their opinions.

We've seen things that were once "facts" been proved false. Such as Tsyukiyomi being unable to be broken, both Sasuke and Killerbee broke it.

Btw that bold statement is why kabuto isnt able to escape:s Naruto let's the kunai stab him so he can hold Kabuto in place...so what exactly were you trying to point out there? Also when did he K.O Kabuto?

Your suggestion that it is just Oro's Opinion is clearly not a fact, but merely a manufactured assumption based on how you view the manga... visual images and dialog is how kishimoto communicates his ideas... he says Kabuto is on the same level as kakashi, for a purpose, not just to take up space... these are the only true form of cannon which truly exist the rest is basically ones interpretation or maybe 'Misinterpretation' of it.. Your Tsyukomi example only proves that it was a statement used by kishi to show that itachi and the MS are extremely powerful... Kirabi's rebuttal is merely another plot device used to warrant Kirabi's survival and a possible counter for our hero to use down the track... Until Kishimoto gives us an indication that Kabuto at that time was not on that lvl, which itself was backed up Kakashi's appreciation of his skills, and the fact he defeated ANBU with ease (fodder or not, again it was done to make a point of his strength)... and then he escaped Kakashi to top it off... Things like Tsundae being low on practice is just speculation, yes she was hindered by her blood phobia, but this isn't whether he is stronger than her, but around the same strength as Kakashi from part 1..

[jdw]

Also when did he K.O Kabuto?


I think you guys are both right on certain things but he is right on the K.O.:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/18-19/ (Initial contact)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/06/ (Kabuto thought he was the man!)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/08/ (Realizes he isn't, wicked faceplant)
He laid there knocked the F* out for quite some time. Or maybe he wasn't completely out but he certainly wasn't going anywhere!

However, I agree with your interpretation of how Kishi shares ideas about power levels, etc. But, I think the source matters. For instance, if Inari says that Naruto from the Zabuza arc is equal to Madara in his prime, it is practically a joke, but Oro calling Kabuto and Kakashi relative peers carries a lot of weight. He is powerful and has assessed their abilities. That something is true at one point and can be considered canon does not mean that it can't be found to be false later and the canon is now reformed. If a jutsu is called unbeatable, it may be considered such at that time and then 100 chapters later it could be beaten. The canon changes from "X is an invincible jutsu" to "X was once considered an invincible jutsu," or merely "X is a powerful jutsu." The source also matters here too. Sasuke calling his own jutsu unbeatable is decent but not the most reliable. If Sasuke's betters or maybe even peers call it unbeatable as do his powerful enemies, then it is more reliable. It is an expanding world. New facts come up all the time.

[adel123456789]

In no particular order:

- Nagato
- Madara
- Killer Bee
- Naruto
- Sasuke
- Kisame
- Raikage
- Kabuto
- Zetsu
- Konan

i understand the others, but why her

[Destined_One]

I think you guys are both right on certain things but he is right on the K.O.:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/18-19/ (Initial contact)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/06/ (Kabuto thought he was the man!)
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/08/ (Realizes he isn't, wicked faceplant)
He laid there knocked the F* out for quite some time.

However, I agree with your interpretation of how Kishi shares ideas about power levels, etc. But, I think the source matters. For instance, if Inari says that Naruto from the Zabuza arc is equal to Madara in his prime, it is practically a joke, but Oro calling Kabuto and Kakashi relative peers carries a lot of weight. He is powerful and has assessed their abilities. That something is true at one point and can be considered canon does not mean that it can't be found to be false later and the canon is now reformed. If a jutsu is called unbeatable, it may be considered such at that time and then 100 chapters later it could be beaten. The canon changes from "X is an invincible jutsu" to "X was once considered an invincible jutsu." The source also matters here too. Sasuke calling his own jutsu unbeatable is decent but not the most reliable. If Sasuke's betters or maybe even peers call it unbeatable as do his powerful enemies, then it is more reliable. It is an expanding world. New facts come up all the time.

I guess I viewed a KO not only as being defeated but being out cold, as in a boxing match etc I remember Kabuto talking after it.. if you know what I mean..

Well put, I agree that any manga is an ever evolving world, and certain statement's are said to help us understand what the Mangaka is trying to portray.. Oro's words held a purpose of underlying Kabuto's strength... though like your example of sasuke stating his jutsu is unbeatable, it would depend on the context of the statement and how kishimoto builds on it further in the manga... I was just saying that Kabuto, apart from the lack of screen time has not been shown to be inferior to what Oro suggested way back then..

[jdw]

I guess I viewed a KO not only as being defeated but being out cold, as in a boxing match etc I remember Kabuto talking after it.. if you know what I mean..

Well put, I agree that any manga is an ever evolving world, and certain statement's are said to help us understand what the Mangaka is trying to portray.. Oro's words held a purpose of underlying Kabuto's strength... though like your example of sasuke stating his jutsu is unbeatable, it would depend on the context of the statement and how kishimoto builds on it further in the manga... I was just saying that Kabuto, apart from the lack of screen time has not been shown to be inferior to what Oro suggested way back then..

In the Sasuke example, I mean if no other evidence is present, like battle tests or expert commentary. Like if one day he just wakes up and says "this is my unbeatable jutsu" :)

[Golom]

1. Madara
2. Naruto
3. Raikage
4. Killer Bee
5. Sasuke
6. Kabuto
7. Kisame
8. Kakashi
9. Tsunde
10. Shino

[Rachwal]

alright guys may i point out that kabuto killed naruto and than naruto is the main character of this manga. kishi couldnt have naruto just die. also kabuto is orochimarus right hand man. he gave orders to people like kimmimaru kabuto isnt someone to just fuck around with.

[jdw]

alright guys may i point out that kabuto killed naruto and than naruto is the main character of this manga. kishi couldnt have naruto just die. also kabuto is orochimarus right hand man. he gave orders to people like kimmimaru kabuto isnt someone to just fuck around with.

Even if we accept all of that as true, Kabuto got pwned by Naruto's very first successful in battle rasengan. It speaks to Kabuto's level, at least a little bit.

[Banedor]

1. Madara (He is the final villain so obviously #1)
2. Nagato (When he has all 6 bodies of course)
3. Raikage
4. Naruto
5. Hachibi
6. Sasuke
7. Kisame
8. Zetsu
9. Danzo
10a. Yamato
10b. Konan


Notice I left out Kakashi because I feel he is dead...

[Delbi]

Even if we accept all of that as true, Kabuto got pwned by Naruto's very first successful in battle rasengan. It speaks to Kabuto's level, at least a little bit.

It speaks a lot about Kabuto.

People say that Kabuto couldn't escape Naruto's grasp because the Kunai was pierced through Naruto's hand. Why didn't Kabuto just let go of the kunai? Is Naruto's grip, with one hand, too much for Kabuto to escape?

And while Kabuto may very well be a good escape artist, what does that have to do with his strength and ability to fight?

As for taking Orochimaru's observation as a fact, when Orochimaru said that, it was a plot device by Kishi to give us a gauge of how strong Kabuto really was. However, Kabuto then showed us through his fights that he was not at Kakashi's level.

Many people take characters words in this manga as fact too much. Use the evidence that you SEE, not that you READ, for facts.

Kabuto was Orochimaru's right hand man because Oro need constant medical attention, and Kabuto at the time, was probably the second best medic in the manga.

Also, keep in mind, Orochimaru has a bias towards Kabuto, just like Sarturobi had one towards Orochimaru, and Kakashi had one towards Sasuke.

In any event, Kakashi has proved that he is at a higher level that Kabuto. Gai has had about as much screen time as Kabuto, but Gai has proven he is at Kakashi's level, Kabuto has not.

[jdw]

Many people take characters words in this manga as fact too much. Use the evidence that you SEE, not that you READ, for facts.

I think all evidence is to be used and determinations are to be made. If you ignore the evidence you read and just depend on what you see, much of the meaning in the manga disappears because a lot of the stuff is based on legends and other such stuff. Kishi presents it for a reason as part of the manga world he is creating.

Looking only at the evidence we could see, Kabuto made Kakashi look really stupid on the hospital room (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/89/09/). Now, I don't think Kakashi is stupid because I look at all evidence surrounding him. The words of strong nins, his actions, and his enemies, etc.

And if we are just looking at what each character has shown and are ignoring the words on the pages, Gai could easily kill Kakashi by opening the gates, IMO. Kakashi has shown nothing that could deal with that. Nothing. But if we go back to reading the words, they seem even, no?

[Delbi]

I think all evidence is to be used and determinations are to be made. If you ignore the evidence you read and just depend on what you see, much of the meaning in the manga disappears because a lot of the stuff is based on legends and other such stuff. Kishi presents it for a reason as part of the manga world he is creating.

Looking only at the evidence we could see, Kabuto made Kakashi look really stupid on the hospital room (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/89/09/). Now, I don't think Kakashi is stupid because I look at all evidence surrounding him. The words of strong nins, his actions, and his enemies, etc.

And if we are just looking at what each character has shown and are ignoring the words on the pages, Gai could easily kill Kakashi by opening the gates, IMO. Kakashi has shown nothing that could deal with that. Nothing. But if we go back to reading the words, they seem even, no?

While this may be true, many people take words such as "Sarturobi was called a God amongest Shinobi, the strongest Hokage ever" as a fact that still stands in the manga to this day. Yet, one of Kishi's biggest themes is the young surpassing the old. And while Sarturobi may have once been the strongest, I don't think he still would be considered the strongest. Not to mention, we never got to see him in his prime, so we have no real idea of how strong he was. We are relying on characters words, not on scenes in the manga. Likewise, characters like Itachi have shown and told to be extremely powerful, and Kishi has represented him in many lights to be at the top in terms of power.

And looking at that page you displayed, look at the underlying details of the scene.

-Kakashi didn't have his Sharigan active.
-Kakashi was looking for information.
-Kakashi's main priority was his students safety, not killling Kabuto.

Also, keep in mind Kabuto didn't stay and fight Kakashi. If he were so strong, he could of killed Kakashi, they disposed of Sasuke, but he didn't, he instead ran away. Kakashi didn't chase after him either, all he stayed there to make sure Sasuke was safe.

Now, am I saying disreguard everything that has been said in the manga? Hell no, but for arguments sake, characters have been known to lie, have been known to be misinformed, etc.

Madara stated that the Kyuubi was a natural disaster. Many people at the time took that as fact. We later find out he was behind the Kyuubi incident.

As for Kishi presenting things, realize that when Kishi's characters speak, they are representing their opinions, not Kishi's or facts of the manga.

As for Gai easily killing Kakashi, well shit, Gai has nothing that could stop Kakashi's MS, can't block his Rakiri's, etc. Kakashi could kill Gai just as easily as Gai could kill Kakashi. They've been presented as equals for the most part.

But overall, Kishi makes the Naruto Universe through his characters. But that Universe is constantly changing as his characters change. When characters speak, they are representing their opinions. Much of the Naruto world is based on the opinion of characters within that world, much like the real world. There is no narrator in the manga that represents facts, just characters he voice their opinion and talk about the world they live in. When we are told something, we are relying on a character to be telling the truth, but what if they are lying or are misinformed, or biased?

Overall, I believe with the Naruto Manga, we have to believe half of what we see, and none of what we read to a certain extent. We can't jump to conclusions about things anymore becasue Kishi is just now unraveling the truth about many things in the Narutoverse.

So, Orochimaru believed Kabuto was as strong as Kakashi. Orochimaru also believed that it was the number of jutsu a ninja knew that made him strong. He believed he was superior to the Uchiha when he was indeed not. He believed that immortatlity, which Kakazu and Madara, both of whom are older and wiser than him I would say, don't believe in.

Naruto believed for a long time that Konoha was a great ninja village, that they could do no wrong. He then realized that they were just as evil as everyone else.

What I'm getting at, is that characters can be wrong, but facts that we are presented with, almost never are.

[M3J]

If Kabuto was on Kakashi's level, then the match would take a while to finish. If it did, then reinforcements could come and/or Kabuto could be outsmarted by Kakashi and captured, which might result in mission failure. Kabuto ran away for his mission. Orochimaru did say Kakashi and Kabuto were equal, but in what? Ninjutsu, intelligence, talent? Perhaps Kabuto is as strong as Kakashi, in taijutsu at least, but Kakashi could be far more intelligent and know more jutsu than Kabuto.

[Belisar]

Kabuto got trainwrecked by part 1 Naruto. Orochimaru said he was on Kakashi's level, and that was an unfair assessment. When you compare what Kabuto has done to what Kakashi has done, Kabuto doesn't even come close.

kabuto has:
- killed several anbus alone in sasuke's hospital room (a leet commando)
- tricked and escaped kakashi out of this room (quite a feat if you ask me)
- was acknowledged by orochimaru to be equal with kakashi(i trust oro's opinion)
- fought on equal ground against tsunade in medical ninjutsu fight and nearly killed her (and she is the best)

he was defeated by naruto but c'mon it was naruto, the main character. he doesn't count. it was a moment in manga where naruto mastered the rasengan and grew as a character. kishi must sacrifice one of the villains to be the test object to his rasengan.

kakashi has done more in the manga but he is also one of the main characters. of course we tend to favor kakashi since he is ultra popular.

[Golom]

I regard Kabuto at an extreemley high level.

He is on par with Shikamaru with intelligence.
He is on par with Tsunde with as a medical ninja.
His taijitsu is on par with Kakashi.
Also he has the uncanny ability to reanimate corpses.
His knowledge of edible drug enhanchments and previous human testing done while with oro also make him an EXTREME wild card. Not to mention he now has Oro's own cells implanted in his body.

If we look at all the ninja's in the world 3 stick out as being the most well rounded ninja's Sasuke , Kakashi, and yes Kabuto. The facts speak for themselves. and yes though Naruto did technically put Kabuto temporaily out of commision a couple of times I don't think we have scene Kabuto fight at full force yet. The first time was a plot device to show the power of the rasengan AND lets not forget to indroduce Kabuto's self healing abilities. Most people forgot about that. Kabuto was surely taken by suprise at such an unexpected technique but it didn't kill him. Even with the force of the three tails chakra throwing him 100s of yards back against the tree. His resposne was that of delight that this boy had so much chakra it wasn't fear.

Kabuto is calculating and learns from his mistakes and the actions of others. He is consistantly gaining new skills and power while expeirimenting on the living and the dead and himself.

In my opinion anyone that thinks Kabuto is a push over clearly hasn't been reading the manga or is just biased with there love of other characters. Watch and see how powerful he has become when they finally reintroduce him :)

-G

[kt5nc9]

Why is everyone always on "Madara" 's cock? As has been said before, the only things we know about him are that he was beaten by the first hokage, that he fails at almost everything, and as far as I know the only technique he has ever been shown to use is that space/time jutsu... wouldn't it be funny if after all the hype and assumptions, that jutsu is all he has? Not saying that's likely, but for all you people know, it could be true.... So my point is, doesn't at least one person here agree that it's a little stupid to just assume that someone who has lost the only fight he's ever been shown to be in, and who may not even be who he claims is the most powerful ninja in the world? Put all assumptions aside and look at what "Madara" has done compared to what Nagato has done...

[jdw]

Why is everyone always on "Madara" 's cock? As has been said before, the only things we know about him are that he was beaten by the first hokage, that he fails at almost everything, and as far as I know the only technique he has ever been shown to use is that space/time jutsu... wouldn't it be funny if after all the hype and assumptions, that jutsu is all he has? Not saying that's likely, but for all you people know, it could be true.... So my point is, doesn't at least one person here agree that it's a little stupid to just assume that someone who has lost the only fight he's ever been shown to be in, and who may not even be who he claims is the most powerful ninja in the world? Put all assumptions aside and look at what "Madara" has done compared to what Nagato has done...

I am not a really big fan of Madara but just reading the manga carelessly reveals a hell of a lot of stuff about him. It is true that he has failed a hell of a lot, but we know some things for what seems to be certain:

He survived his battle with the 1st though he lost (but was thought to be dead).
He survived an encounter with the 4th. And the 4th, by his own words to Naruto, sealed a demon fox in his own child because a special power is needed to beat Madara. and he saw through everything the 4th did.
He can control Kyuubi.
He can allow attacks to phase through him
He can teleport.
He has a counter to Amaterasu.
He has, at a minimum right now, regular sharingan, so h could be decent in taijutsu because of semi-prediction of movement and he can steal jutsu (though possibly higher level sharingan because of his history but who knows what occurred over the years).
He was running Akatsuki from the shadows (so it appears)
He was mizukage, which means he was probably at least decent in strength, politics, or both.
He was revered among Uchiha, a notoriously strong clan


There is probably more but this should be sufficient to explain why people think he may be powerful.

[Belisar]

Why is everyone always on "Madara" 's cock? As has been said before, the only things we know about him are that he was beaten by the first hokage, that he fails at almost everything, and as far as I know the only technique he has ever been shown to use is that space/time jutsu... wouldn't it be funny if after all the hype and assumptions, that jutsu is all he has? Not saying that's likely, but for all you people know, it could be true.... So my point is, doesn't at least one person here agree that it's a little stupid to just assume that someone who has lost the only fight he's ever been shown to be in, and who may not even be who he claims is the most powerful ninja in the world? Put all assumptions aside and look at what "Madara" has done compared to what Nagato has done...
but he is an uchiha! it's enough for those fanboys. :D
[hr]


Many people take characters words in this manga as fact too much. Use the evidence that you SEE, not that you READ, for facts.

well that explains why we never agree in those vs-threads. manga and databooks are canon since verified by kishimoto, the author. you can interpret as much as you want but it doesn't change the facts of manga.

you can see what happens if everyone take his opinion as the corect one: itachi is seen by many here nearly as god, even if the manga showed us that's not the truth. the same for uchiha generally and minato. keep to the manga and less baseless discussions will occur.
[hr]

I regard Kabuto at an extreemley high level.

He is on par with Shikamaru with intelligence.
He is on par with Tsunde with as a medical ninja.
His taijitsu is on par with Kakashi.
Also he has the uncanny ability to reanimate corpses.
His knowledge of edible drug enhanchments and previous human testing done while with oro also make him an EXTREME wild card. Not to mention he now has Oro's own cells implanted in his body.

If we look at all the ninja's in the world 3 stick out as being the most well rounded ninja's Sasuke , Kakashi, and yes Kabuto. The facts speak for themselves. and yes though Naruto did technically put Kabuto temporaily out of commision a couple of times I don't think we have scene Kabuto fight at full force yet. The first time was a plot device to show the power of the rasengan AND lets not forget to indroduce Kabuto's self healing abilities. Most people forgot about that. Kabuto was surely taken by suprise at such an unexpected technique but it didn't kill him. Even with the force of the three tails chakra throwing him 100s of yards back against the tree. His resposne was that of delight that this boy had so much chakra it wasn't fear.

Kabuto is calculating and learns from his mistakes and the actions of others. He is consistantly gaining new skills and power while expeirimenting on the living and the dead and himself.

In my opinion anyone that thinks Kabuto is a push over clearly hasn't been reading the manga or is just biased with there love of other characters. Watch and see how powerful he has become when they finally reintroduce him :)

-G
besides kakashi admitted himself that kabuto is highly skilled and said that his current level is not enough.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/89/10/

[wildG]

Why is everyone always on "Madara" 's cock? As has been said before, the only things we know about him are that he was beaten by the first hokage, that he fails at almost everything, and as far as I know the only technique he has ever been shown to use is that space/time jutsu... wouldn't it be funny if after all the hype and assumptions, that jutsu is all he has? Not saying that's likely, but for all you people know, it could be true.... So my point is, doesn't at least one person here agree that it's a little stupid to just assume that someone who has lost the only fight he's ever been shown to be in, and who may not even be who he claims is the most powerful ninja in the world? Put all assumptions aside and look at what "Madara" has done compared to what Nagato has done...
He has failed officially only in one thing and that is defeating hashirama and obtaining the hokageship

Madara is the reason of negato's pain, madara has manipulated him and took him to his side

Madara caused all these wars, what else do you want? And no it would be more funny to put negatos/nagatos doings on par with madara.. Negato is a victim, madara is the master.

[jdw]

He has failed officially only in one thing and that is defeating hashirama and obtaining the hokageship

Madara is the reason of negato's pain, madara has manipulated him and took him to his side

Madara caused all these wars, what else do you want? And no it would be more funny to put negatos/nagatos doings on par with madara.. Negato is a victim, madara is the master.

He failed to destroy leaf when he summoned Kyuubi to do it for him. His plan failed, thus he failed. Yondaime secured the safety of the village when he a sealed Kyuubi in death god & Naruto.

[Belisar]

He has failed officially only in one thing and that is defeating hashirama and obtaining the hokageship

Madara is the reason of negato's pain, madara has manipulated him and took him to his side

Madara caused all these wars, what else do you want? And no it would be more funny to put negatos/nagatos doings on par with madara.. Negato is a victim, madara is the master.
lol says who? ^^

[Franckie]

Even if we accept all of that as true, Kabuto got pwned by Naruto's very first successful in battle rasengan. It speaks to Kabuto's level, at least a little bit.

Has it ever occurred to you that Kabuto was hit with the idiot ball? Kabuto still had one hand free at the time and Naruto had yet to form the Rasengan. Kabuto had both the means and the opportunity to counterattack, yet he didn't thanks to being made deliberately stupid by the author.

[jdw]

Has it ever occurred to you that Kabuto was hit with the idiot ball? Kabuto still had one hand free at the time and Naruto had yet to form the Rasengan. Kabuto had both the means and the opportunity to counterattack, yet he didn't thanks to being made deliberately stupid by the author.

It happened. It is the author's tale. What do you want me to do?

[Forever_Melody]

Kabuto got fodder for Rasengan. He was the only character Kishi could make that'd take a Rasengan directly into the stomach and survive it so Kishi could say "look! it even causes damage even if the guy can heal himself!". Really that moment served as hype for Rasengan more than anything else(which includes any statement on Kabuto's strength).

Until recently, Kabuto was never commented on being much of a combatant anyways(save that moment where he dispatched those ANBU). He specializes in medical jutsu(or kinjutsu) and experimentation really. Orochimaru even states it, the reason he likes Kabuto so much is for the kid's medical abilities.

Now that he's absorbed Orochimaru however, it's a pretty free ballpark what'll happen. Orochimaru was already one of THE most enduring guys in the series so if Kabuchimaru is like that AND has the ability to heal himself, it'll be a scary combination.

[Franckie]

It happened. It is the author's tale. What do you want me to do?

Feats which are clear-cut cases of Plot no Jutsu, aka Deus ex Machina, don't count. Kabuto is elite jounin in terms of strength as dictated by both statements and actions. You can't hold something such as Kabuto being hit with a Rasengan in the manner he was against him.

[wildG]

He failed to destroy leaf when he summoned Kyuubi to do it for him. His plan failed, thus he failed. Yondaime secured the safety of the village when he a sealed Kyuubi in death god & Naruto.

that is still pending, there are currently two sides, one claiming that it was natural disaster and the other one saying that it was madara

None the less you could aswell make it 2 failures which add more villeness to him. He is the cause of naruto's bane, naruto lost his family and had an aweful life cause of him.

[THM Nindo]

In my opinion Kabuto was always really strong.
He was on par with a "Frighten Tsunade" and was often compared to Kakashi.

Only thing that make me wonder if he was that strong is that he was even with Shizune during their little fight (and in my opinion, Shizune is not a great fighter) and that he got hit by Naruto's Rasengan (even though you can say that he was really surprised and he underestimated Naruto.)

So basically, I'd say he was just under Kakashi (and Gai since I'll always put those two equal in the list)...

But, now... With Orochimaru slowly taking over his body, he will get even stronger. Not only can he use his healing technique, he can now probably do stuff that Oro was able to do, like changing skin and shit...

I think he's stronger than Kakashi now... (well, Kakashi hasn't been shown to be really strong lately, he lost all his fight)...

Probably one of the strongest villain left. And if he gets his hands on the Rin'negan like a lot of people think he will, he would just get so strong...

[jdw]

that is still pending, there are currently two sides, one claiming that it was natural disaster and the other one saying that it was madara

None the less you could aswell make it 2 failures which add more villeness to him. He is the cause of naruto's bane, naruto lost his family and had an aweful life cause of him.

Still pending? So you are inclined to place the word of Madara on the same level as Yondaime? I will give the honorable Yondaime the benefit of the doubt when his word is put against that of the conniving Madara until he is proven to be a liar or misinformed.

[wildG]

Still pending? So you are inclined to place the word of Madara on the same level as Yondaime? I will give the honorable Yondaime the benefit of the doubt when his word is put against that of the conniving Madara until he is proven to be a liar or misinformed.

lol, well in my opinion, theres something behind it, i wouldn't be suprised if madara was just watching or he gave his eye to danzou in order to control the kyuubi and let it loose in konoha

And no i have never questioned my self about w/e anyone says, i take everything stated as a fact till we have more resources....

[Forever_Melody]

It's 3 against one for the Kyuubi attack 16 years ago lol :p Itachi, Jiraiya and Minato against Madara >.> Kishi has basically gathered probably 3 characters with the largest fanbase to make a pretty clear statement lol :p

But arguably, this doesn't really change Madara's strength level.

What puzzles me is Raikage's position. A Kage is supposed to be the strongest in the village, yet Nii is supposed to be the 2nd strongest(according to other translations, not the onemanga one) and arguably Killebee is stronger than her. That means it'd make Raikage the 3rd assuming she was telling the truth and Killerbe is indeed better than Nii. Perhaps Yugito was bluffing or perhaps the strength gap between all 3 of them isn't that large.

I mean, Raikage can apparently deal with Killerbee's cloaked form and he doesn't have Sharingan or anything to help him...

[jdw]

It's 3 against one for the Kyuubi attack 16 years ago lol :p Itachi, Jiraiya and Minato against Madara >.> Kishi has basically gathered probably 3 characters with the largest fanbase to make a pretty clear statement lol :p

But arguably, this doesn't really change Madara's strength level.

What puzzles me is Raikage's position. A Kage is supposed to be the strongest in the village, yet Nii is supposed to be the 2nd strongest(according to other translations, not the onemanga one) and arguably Killebee is stronger than her. That means it'd make Raikage the 3rd assuming she was telling the truth and Killerbe is indeed better than Nii. Perhaps Yugito was bluffing or perhaps the strength gap between all 3 of them isn't that large.

I mean, Raikage can apparently deal with Killerbee's cloaked form and he doesn't have Sharingan or anything to help him...

Kage isn't always the strongest in our experience. When discussing Hokage, other considerations matter, like willingness to do the job (Jiraiya), or disposition (Orochimaru--not that Oro was certainly stronger than Yondaime, but Hiruzen stated that Oro's "issues" contributed to his not being selected).

[Belisar]

What puzzles me is Raikage's position. A Kage is supposed to be the strongest in the village, yet Nii is supposed to be the 2nd strongest(according to other translations, not the onemanga one) and arguably Killebee is stronger than her. That means it'd make Raikage the 3rd assuming she was telling the truth and Killerbe is indeed better than Nii. Perhaps Yugito was bluffing or perhaps the strength gap between all 3 of them isn't that large.

I mean, Raikage can apparently deal with Killerbee's cloaked form and he doesn't have Sharingan or anything to help him...
finally! i red this translations when the chapter came out but then i could only find the one from onemanga. i already thought that i imagined things. thanks mel.

when raikage is weaker than yugito than his muscles are just for show (sadly). ok, she lost to kakuzu and hidan but afterall she had the fully control of her beast.

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Why does everyone rank madara top because of of his Teleportation??? Hanza had the same teleportation jutsu yet he still got destroyed by Nagato. Nagato must have an counterattack for this jutsu.

[jdw]

Why does everyone rank madara top because of of his Teleportation??? Hanza had the same teleportation jutsu yet he still got destroyed by Nagato. Nagato must have an counterattack for this jutsu.

Hanzou showed a simple shunshin no jutsu, Madara used a space/time jutsu of a much different level & type. They are not the same, not even close. Sorry :(

[DRAGON-PEIN-SAMA]

Hanzou showed a simple shunshin no jutsu, Madara used a space/time jutsu of a much different level & type. They are not the same, not even close. Sorry :(

Simple??? Teleport is teleport, nothing more nothing less, the point of it is to run like a coward.

How do u know madara controls Time/space? from wat we've seen, he always avoids attacks, yeah just like Hanzo did.

[Forever_Melody]

Shunshin isn't teleportation, it's high speed movement. Shino stated in the manga.

Shunshin is a basic shinobi technique that most can use. Madara uses some form of space/time jutsu akin to Hiraishin albeit with perhaps different mechanics(it's not self summoning after all).

Really, Madara's strength currently is shrouded in mystery. He has one great jutsu, but we've yet to see that jutsu's limits nor the cost on him or really anythign else from the man.

Nagato IMO still tops in the current living shinobi who have actually shown what they can do fully.

[jdw]

Simple??? Teleport is teleport, nothing more nothing less, the point of it is to run like a coward.

How do u know madara controls Time/space? from wat we've seen, he always avoids attacks, yeah just like Hanzo did.

They are different, shunshin, which Sasuke also uses, is just high speed movement (teleportation, as described by Shino). The jutsu Madara uses is not the same. Please see this page Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/09/).

Here is Hisshouburaiken's translation

Shino: My bugs were reacting to his chakra, and then they just...lost him.
This is...unprecedented...

Sakura: Was it a teleportation jutsu?

Shino: No...it wasn't teleportation.
How do I know? Because teleportation is merely high-speed movement - the bugs still would've sensed the direction he moved

in and pursued. [H: He doesn't say all of this, but i thought a little exposition was in order given what teleportation

usually means to us]
They wouldn't let him escape.

Kakashi: ...Which means he used a space/time ninjutsu? In THAT situation?
No...that's impossible.


Here is CNet's translation

Shino: The insects reacting to the Chakra suddenly... lost sight of him. // Impossible.
Sakura: Shunshin no Jutsu?
Shino: No... it can't be Shunshin. // After all, if it were, the insects would react to his movement and follow. / They would not allow him to escape.
Kakashi: Could he have used a time-space technique in that situation...? // No... That's impossible...

10
Hinata: ...Impossible... He just... // ...disappeared...
Kakashi: Moving through space without making any seals, markings or using a Kuchiyose? // That would be superior to the Fourth himself!
Yamato: His body disappeared completely... // He can eliminate his very existence?
Sakura: That's not... // (But...!) // ...If he can actually make his body disappear completely, he could probably just eliminate a portion of it, instead... // He could eliminate just the part of his body where an external attack would otherwise land... / That way, it would appear to have gone right through him.

It is stated plainly. It is in the manga, I am not making it up. Argue with the mangaka.

[segua]

Why does everyone rank madara top because of of his Teleportation??? Hanza had the same teleportation jutsu yet he still got destroyed by Nagato. Nagato must have an counterattack for this jutsu.

Madara has lived long enough and proved himself to be a very capable ninja. He took out the Sanbi with a one-hit KO jutsu, untouchable and could render the Amaterasu useless and has survived a battle with possibly one of the most strongest shinobi in all of history, Senju Hashirama.

His skills and years of experience makes him a formidable opponent in addition to him being a genius of the Uchiha clan.

[Delbi]

Madara has lived long enough and proved himself to be a very capable ninja. He took out the Sanbi with a one-hit KO jutsu, untouchable and could render the Amaterasu useless and has survived a battle with possibly one of the most strongest shinobi in all of history, Senju Hashirama.

His skills and years of experience makes him a formidable opponent in addition to him being a genius of the Uchiha clan.

I agree 100%

I love how people undermine this man, his body of work is astounding.

He achieved the greatest level of Sharigan use in the Eternal Mangekyo Sharigan.

He controlled the Kyuubi, the single most powerful entity in the Naruto world, like a pet.

He stood atop the shinobi world for years with his rival, Senju Hirashima.

He has lived for over 100 years, and may very well be immortal.

He has shown the ability to make himself invulnerable, he has a way to allow objects and attacks to pass through him. We've seen "ultimate defenses" before, but this is above and beyond all of them.

He has the ability to travel through space time better than the Yondiame Hokage could as stated by Kakashi.

He orders around Pain/Nagato, the man with the Rinnegan, the Doujutsu said to be the most powerful Doujutsu.

He was once the Mizukage. And also rivaled Hirashima for the position of the Hokage.

He has created an organization that united some of the most powerful, dangerous, psychotic, greedy, and evil people ever in the Naruto world into having one goal.

He is on the verge of capturing the last two Jinchuriki, and thus, on the verge of world domination. It would seem only two people, Uchiha Sasuke, and Uzumaki Naruto even have the potential to stop him, neither yet has the ability it would seem.

Top all of this off with the years of experience he has, and the possible other powers he posses and there is no one in the entire manga has a resume that even comes close to matching his.

[Forever_Melody]

Madara is a man of a man to be sure lol :p I still don't get how he managed to live for so long though(the manga is really vague on this IMO). Not saying that he wasn't great, but arguably if all the characters of the manga were given a chance at a long life like Madara did, some of them might have an equally impressive resume.

IMO, Madara's life long experience(and long lief) are what set him apart the most from the rest.

[M3J]

Why does everyone rank madara top because of of his Teleportation??? Hanza had the same teleportation jutsu yet he still got destroyed by Nagato. Nagato must have an counterattack for this jutsu.

Hanzo's required a jutsu, from the looks of it, Madara's doesn't. He teleported quite a distance away to recover Itachi and Sasuke, even Zetsu couldn't get there fast enough. He was also covered in Shino's bugs and couldn't move, yet he teleported out. Without the apparent use of hand seals. Nagato's counterattack for Shunshin is probably Shinra Tensei and/or Bansho Tenin. With Madara, that might not be enough.
Madara is mysterious, but he has survived this long for a reason and is the leader of the few of the most powerful shinobi in Naruto world.

[Grizz]

1 - Nagato
2 - Madara
3 - Naruto
4 - Sasuke
5 - Kisame
6 - Gai
7 - Yamato
8 - Kakashi
9 - Sugestu
10 - KB

[Zero Sama]

1.madra
2.zetsu!
3.nagato
4.naruto
5.danzu
6.raikage
7.killerbee
8.kisame
9.kakashi(i want him to be alive:eyeroll)
10.sasuke

[Grizz]

Why are most people keep putting Madara as number?? we haven't even seen him fight yet, so you cnt know for sure the limit of his powers right??

[Zero Sama]

well I guess Delbi45 reasoned enough for this matter!
:eyeroll

[Grizz]

Yeh i've just read it now as well.... lets leave this matter behind now :):):)

[Forever_Melody]

Well nobody can really reason Zetsu though lol :p Those who put him are putting him on the assumption that he'd be better and surprise, not based on what he's shown. Same goes for Konan to an extent(since we've only seen her Paper Bushin).

[Destined_One]

1.madra
2.zetsu!
3.nagato
4.naruto
5.danzu
6.raikage
7.killerbee
8.kisame
9.kakashi(i want him to be alive:eyeroll)
10.sasuke

I understand Madara, there has been enough evidence to make a case with Hype alone, but why Zetsu?, Danzou and the Raikage? all of these Ninja's have shown nothing at all.. all zetsu has shown is the ability to hide, scout, personal cam corder and eat bodies... the Raikage, umm lifts barbells? and Danzou, Plot to become Hokage... Hunch Maybe?

Though If Ni Is number 2 in Kumo, then Bee is number 1 IMO, Raikage, come's across as fodder tbh, IDK its just the way he looks... Someone on the forums mentioned this before.. he wreaks of Hercule From DBZ... lol

[Grizz]

Ya huh, thats what i was thinking as well, i can understand @zero sama, having the other ninja's there, but i don't understand why you would have Raikage, Zetsu or Danzou, well maybe they have huge potentials but we have yet to see them do anything major you know.... the raikage we saw lift weights, Zetsu, enjoys spying with his own cam corder... and well .. danzou, ever since he started plotting on his plan to become Hokage, which might nt even succeed...

[Forever_Melody]

Well I suppose hunches are also valid in this thread since it's opinion-based, not necessarily factually based. Some people put Kabuto on the list and arguably he's not shown much either.

[Grizz]

Why was Kabuto even on the list???? he hasnt been shown much either...

[jdw]

Why was Kabuto even on the list???? he hasnt been shown much either...

Because at one point he was said to be Kakashi level by Orochimaru, around that same point even Kakashi recognized Kabuto's skill and said his own may not be enough, and at one point even Tsunade said that Kabuto's medical jutsu may be better than her own in her prime. The guy is not just some mere fodder. He has not shown a hell of a lot but respectable people consider him a dangerous man with a decent level of ability (2 Sannin and a great nin).

[M3J]

Kabuto has shown to be talented enough and intelligent enough. Remember when Tsunade messed up his nerves? It didn't take him as long to figure out how to control his body with the messed up nerves. He's even managed to trick Kakashi and would have fooled Yamato too if he didn't notice the scar or w/e that indicates that the body wasn't really Sai's.
His medic jutsu is what makes him dangerous, IMO anyway.

[Grizz]

Yeah he's regarded as a very good ninja by those around him... but am sure Naruto defeated him quite easily???

[M3J]

to show off Rasengan. Kabuto's healing technique was to show off how powerful Rasengan was, and to show Naruto's development, since he beat someone on an equal footing with Kakashi, or said to be on equal footing. Another purpose of Kabuto losing to Naruto like that was to make Tsunade feel hope and have her become godaime; seeing Naruto finally complete the Rasengan and beat someone strong, and seeing how he refused to die, Tsunade finally felt hope and got over her fear of blood. Kabuto had a role to play, though he most likely didn't know it yet.

[Grizz]

I dindnt quite get her blood alergie thingy?? was sumtin to do when her boyfriend and brother died or sumtin??

[jdw]

I dindnt quite get her blood alergie thingy?? was sumtin to do when her boyfriend and brother died or sumtin??

Wasn't an allergy, it seemed like a phobia. Probably had everything to do with those deaths.

[Grizz]

a phobia thats make more sense....

[M3J]

It was a phobia she got after Dan's death. She was trying to heal him and saw blood on her hand, that's when she started having phobia.

[Grizz]

and it took her that long to overcome it... wow and once again thanks to Naruto.... blah blah

[M3J]

Try not being able to save someone from death with blood on your hand, then you'll understand how she felt, though she's a fictitious character. <_< And of course Naruto would do that, he's the main character and it's another way to show his talent, the power that Kakashi and Chiyo talked about, the power that Itachi trusted to protect Konoha and keep Sasuke safe.
Naruto has failed few times though, like trying to get Sasuke back, at least twice. The manga wouldn't be fun if the main character was dull and couldn't do shit.
Kabuto lost to Naruto, Tsunade felt hope because of Naruto, Neji and Gaara changed their outlook after fighting against Naruto and talking with him... these serve to further Naruto's strength and his power/hidden power. It also offers us glimpse into his mind, what he thinks, and his view on stuff.

[Belisar]

He controlled the Kyuubi, the single most powerful entity in the Naruto world, like a pet.
controlling is not the same as being as strong as. genjutsu gives the user the advantage over everything since kishi made it almost a godlike technique that owns everything since itachi's ms in part 1.

first jiraiya said that you can dispell genjutsu with enough chakra but who has more chakra than kyuubi? and it's not that kyuubi is dumb or something. now even killerbee and hachibi needs each other to dispell a genjutsu. strange.



He has lived for over 100 years, and may very well be immortal.

no. "only" for about 90 years. when he tells his story to sasuke he said that he must go back to the foundings of konoha, more than 80 years back. he was a child back then, about 7-10 years old. konoha was founded about 60 years ago. so he was about 27-30 when konoha was founded. he lived for maybe 90 years but not 100 years or longer like you imply.

seriously people, can't you read? :notrust

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/05/

[Grizz]

Try not being able to save someone from death with blood on your hand, then you'll understand how she felt, though she's a fictitious character. <_< And of course Naruto would do that, he's the main character and it's another way to show his talent, the power that Kakashi and Chiyo talked about, the power that Itachi trusted to protect Konoha and keep Sasuke safe.
Naruto has failed few times though, like trying to get Sasuke back, at least twice. The manga wouldn't be fun if the main character was dull and couldn't do shit.
Kabuto lost to Naruto, Tsunade felt hope because of Naruto, Neji and Gaara changed their outlook after fighting against Naruto and talking with him... these serve to further Naruto's strength and his power/hidden power. It also offers us glimpse into his mind, what he thinks, and his view on stuff.


Obviously i know how it would feel.. i was being sarcastic on ma previous post

[jdw]

controlling is not the same as being as strong as. genjutsu gives the user the advantage over everything since kishi made it almost a godlike technique that owns everything since itachi's ms in part 1.

first jiraiya said that you can dispell genjutsu with enough chakra but who has more chakra than kyuubi? and it's not that kyuubi is dumb or something. now even killerbee and hachibi needs each other to dispell a genjutsu. strange.


no. "only" for about 90 years. when he tells his story to sasuke he said that he must go back to the foundings of konoha, more than 80 years back. he was a child back then, about 7-10 years old. konoha was founded about 60 years ago. so he was about 27-30 when konoha was founded. he lived for maybe 90 years but not 100 years or longer like you imply.

seriously people, can't you read? :notrust

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/05/

IMO, when he was talking about it started 80 years ago, it seemed like he was including himself in the chaos, and the images of him appeared to be in late teens (17+) to mid 20's (24-25), possibly slightly older. We are left to interpret time based on many vague details. In my estimation he could be anywhere from 97-105.

Even if you are right, the "seriously people, can't you read?" part is a turn off.

[Belisar]

Even if you are right, the "seriously people, can't you read?" part is a turn off.
you're right but i was simply tired about "madara is over 100 years old", "madara is older than 120" and so on, stuff.

isn't mean personally. it's just that people should read the manga before starting arguing with wrong statements the whole time.

[goldb]

I think from his flashbacks, Madara is just older that our current heroes(Naruto,etc...) if you add that to the 80 years then I would say he's in his late 90s, I don't think he's reached 100 yet, but we'll know soon

Here's my list:

1. Madara
2. Nagato(Pain)
3. Killerbee
4. Raikage
5. Naruto
6. Sasuke
7. Tsunade
8. Kisame
9. Gai

I kinda rushed that list, some honorable mention for those who weren't included: , Zetsu( but we haven't seen him fight the slightest so I can't include him), Neji, Rock Lee, Suigetsu,Gaara

Remember

[jdw]

I think from his flashbacks, Madara is just older that our current heroes(Naruto,etc...) if you add that to the 80 years then I would say he's in his late 90s, I don't think he's reached 100 yet, but we'll know soon

Here's my list:

1. Madara
2. Nagato(Pain)
3. Killerbee
4. Raikage
5. Naruto
6. Sasuke
7. Tsunade
8. Kisame
9. Gai

I kinda rushed that list, some honorable mention for those who weren't included: , Zetsu( but we haven't seen him fight the slightest so I can't include him), Neji, Rock Lee, Suigetsu,Gaara

Remember

Any list that leaves off Kakashi is interesting indeed :)

Care to discuss why he is off? (assuming you consider him among the living, that is).

[goldb]

Any list that leaves off Kakashi is interesting indeed :)

Care to discuss why he is off? (assuming you consider him among the living, that is).

Yeah I forgot to mention him, At this point I don't know what to say about Kakashi being alive or dead so for that reason alone I didn't include him.

If he were alive, he would be 8th imo

[Forever_Melody]

Well even if he's under 100 years old, for Madara to still remain physically apt to be a shinobi is amazing. Sandaime who was in his 70s when he fought Oro was having trouble even using techniques and his age ended up being the factor so he couldn't win against Oro. So really, if Madara is 20 years older and shows no sign of such things, it's already pretty awesome. I still don't like the manga's explanation of WHY Madara is so old though -_-;

I mean, from the people alive he ranks on the top no doubt, but then again, he's been alive for more than most.

[goldb]

Do you ultimately we'll learn that it has something to do with his Eternal Mangyekou Sharingan?

[jdw]

Well even if he's under 100 years old, for Madara to still remain physically apt to be a shinobi is amazing. Sandaime who was in his 70s when he fought Oro was having trouble even using techniques and his age ended up being the factor so he couldn't win against Oro. So really, if Madara is 20 years older and shows no sign of such things, it's already pretty awesome. I still don't like the manga's explanation of WHY Madara is so old though -_-;

I mean, from the people alive he ranks on the top no doubt, but then again, he's been alive for more than most.

Yeah, having a "strong chakra" seems like a weak explanation. I would have preferred something a little better, but I guess kishi dipped in the special reason for immortality well too man times: Oro (body transfer), Hidan (Jashin), Kakazu (multiple hearts, tho he doesn't believe in immortality).

[Forever_Melody]

Well form my personal definition, immortal has to do with time. Invulnerable/invincible has to do with the abilty to take damage.

So Oro, Kakuzu & Madara are "immortal" while Hidan is more "invulnerable/invincible". madara is in his own way "invincible/invulnerable" thanks to his space/time jutsu though.

But yeah, it's not much of an explanation I agree. Perhaps it'll get elaborated on more because I don't see exactly WHAT sets Madara's chakra apart from the rest(nor Sasuke's for that matter).

[jdw]

Well form my personal definition, immortal has to do with time. Invulnerable/invincible has to do with the abilty to take damage.

So Oro, Kakuzu & Madara are "immortal" while Hidan is more "invulnerable/invincible". madara is in his own way "invincible/invulnerable" thanks to his space/time jutsu though.

But yeah, it's not much of an explanation I agree. Perhaps it'll get elaborated on more because I don't see exactly WHAT sets Madara's chakra apart from the rest(nor Sasuke's for that matter).

It was never shown that Hidan was only "invincible/invulnerable," unless it was in the databooks (which I don't really read too often), we can't say he was aging or anything (I don't recall the point being addressed).

[Belisar]

Well even if he's under 100 years old, for Madara to still remain physically apt to be a shinobi is amazing. Sandaime who was in his 70s when he fought Oro was having trouble even using techniques and his age ended up being the factor so he couldn't win against Oro. So really, if Madara is 20 years older and shows no sign of such things, it's already pretty awesome. I still don't like the manga's explanation of WHY Madara is so old though -_-;

I mean, from the people alive he ranks on the top no doubt, but then again, he's been alive for more than most.
there is an explanation? do you have contact with kishi?

[Forever_Melody]

It was never shown that Hidan was only "invincible/invulnerable," unless it was in the databooks (which I don't really read too often), we can't say he was aging or anything (I don't recall the point being addressed).
Well it was never stated he DIDN'T age either >.> Only comment was really in function of the fact that he didn't die of mortal wounds.


there is an explanation? do you have contact with kishi?
Well I'm referring to this vague statement Madara made that he had exceptional chakra. Then he says "the fact that I'm still alive is proof of that".

[jdw]

there is an explanation? do you have contact with kishi?

I think This (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/) is the best we have so far. Unless someone has another link :)
[hr]

Well it was never stated he DIDN'T age either >.> Only comment was really in function of the fact that he didn't die of mortal wounds.


Well I'm referring to this vague statement Madara made that he had exceptional chakra. Then he says "the fact that I'm still alive is proof of that".

I know, but they kept referring to him as immortal, so I thought it came with all the bells & whistles :)

[Forever_Melody]

I know, but they kept referring to him as immortal, so I thought it came with all the bells & whistles :)

Well like I said, it comes back to the definition used for "immortal". Mine includes time, but perhaps theirs does or doesn't. It migh thought considering it includes Kakuzu and he doesn't age(however Kakuzu CAN die sooooo).

Oh well >.>

Hmm Hidan's immortality was never explained as well(other than attributing it to his religion) so I might lose hope for Madara's lol :p

[THM Nindo]

Well like I said, it comes back to the definition used for "immortal". Mine includes time, but perhaps theirs does or doesn't. It migh thought considering it includes Kakuzu and he doesn't age(however Kakuzu CAN die sooooo).

Oh well >.>

Hmm Hidan's immortality was never explained as well(other than attributing it to his religion) so I might lose hope for Madara's lol :p


Well, as it goes for definition, here's my take on this :

Eternal = Can be killed, but can't die from old age (ex: Elves)
Invincible = Cannot be killed, can die from old age
Immortal = Cannot be killed, cannot die from old age

I don't want to brag about it, but I think those definition are the right ones :p:p

If someone wants to contradict me with some Dictionnary definition, go for it !! :tem

[Delbi]

you're right but i was simply tired about "madara is over 100 years old", "madara is older than 120" and so on, stuff.

isn't mean personally. it's just that people should read the manga before starting arguing with wrong statements the whole time.

Excuse me for not being exactly correct. He's lived for a long ass time, k :D

In any event, no one has come close to being as powerful as the Kyuubi, not even Nagato. Madara being able to control it gives him it's power under his command, so the Kyuubi's power to an extent becomes his own.
[hr]

there is an explanation? do you have contact with kishi?

Madara commented that it was the nature of his chakra that has made him live for so long. And Itachi eludes to the fact that it may be his EMS that has made him immortal.

[Phoenix946]

I also think that it has something to do with his EMS, strong chakra just sounds too vague. Of course we won't know until Sasuke also gets his EMS, but we do know there's one last trick to the Sharingan that you get with an EMS. Could be the immortal thing.

My list:
1. Madara.
2. Nagato.
3. Killer Bee.
4. Naruto.
5. Sasuke.
6. Kakashi. (assuming he's alive :wtf )
7. Kisame.
8. Gai.
9. Gaara.
10. Yamato.

No Tsunade because I don't see her winning against any of those people, no Raikage or Zetsu because we don't know anything about them.

[Belisar]

Well I'm referring to this vague statement Madara made that he had exceptional chakra. Then he says "the fact that I'm still alive is proof of that".
he said that he was able to survive due to his strong chakra, not that strong chakra let him live this long.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/

he could be even a ghost who possesses other bodies.

[Forever_Melody]

he said that he was able to survive due to his strong chakra, not that strong chakra let him live this long.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/18/

he could be even a ghost who possesses other bodies.

Yeah yeah semantics semantics. Point of the matter is that the manga does a very very bad job at any attempt to explain how Madara is still considered among the living(i.e. not at all) -_-;

[Grizz]

But i think once... they start showing Madara more in the manga Kishi will get in more detail about his survival all these years...

[bgx]

Why would someone post Naruto above Nagato ?(i know its outdated now)

Do we ever read the same manga ?

Also agreed with Kakashi>Tsunade.

[jdw]

Why would someone post Naruto above Nagato ?(i know its outdated now)

Do we ever read the same manga ?

Also agreed with Kakashi>Tsunade.

To the victor goes the spoils of a higher ranking, perhaps?

[Raizen]

1. Madara, Pein b4 he died (EMS and Rinnegan)
3. Hachibi (complete control of his bijuu and toyed with sasuke and co)
4. NAruto (Master of senjutsu, extremely skilled in all combat minus gen, 9-tails)
5. Raikage (Was said to be able to doge hachi's 8-tails)
6. Tsunade (Hokage ans sannin)
7. Kakashi, kisame (One is a well rounded powerful ninjas while the other is a chakra monster with great skills)
8. Yamato Gai, Sasuke (Skilled jonins, pansy ass who has the author;s love)
9. Gaara (my favovrite sand buddy, his sand makes him a force to be reckoned with)
10. Kabutomaru (crazy....

[jdw]

With the abilities of the rinnegan and the sharingan combined, I am hard pressed to list a living shinobi above Madara.

[warbandit66]

The thing with Madara is that for all his boasts we are yet to really witness the power that he's so feared for.

[chitilinLasagne]

Madara has one major weakness when using those two eyes. The rinnegan uses even more chakra then the sharingan hence the reason an Uzamaki was able to use it so effectively. I think Madara can use it because Uchias have high chakra capacity but I doubt he'll be able to use any of the major techniques because they're so chakra intensive. Considering Bee's skills the only issue he ever had in battle was using too much chakra but with the sword he took from kisami that shouldn't be an issue any longer.

[warbandit66]

Not to mention that Madara is unable to use Gedo Maizo for extended periods of time. It must be a massive drain on his chakra.

[chitilinLasagne]

Personally I think Madara has implemented the Rinnigan to compensate for the weakness in his space/time jutsu. It's got a 5 sec recharge if I remember correctly but during that time he can use the rinnigan's abilities to repel attacks. It remains to be seen however if that protects him from sammahada's ability to absorb chakra since it takes chakra to use that ability

[Dutchy]

Personally I think Madara has implemented the Rinnigan to compensate for the weakness in his space/time jutsu. It's got a 5 sec recharge if I remember correctly but during that time he can use the rinnigan's abilities to repel attacks. It remains to be seen however if that protects him from sammahada's ability to absorb chakra since it takes chakra to use that ability
Deva's jutsu doesn't use chakra in the same way that Neji's Gentle Fist Art One Blow Body does - it's more like Guy's Morning Tiger, so I doubt Samehada could do much if he kept his distance.

[Alexis]

Personally I think Madara has implemented the Rinnigan to compensate for the weakness in his space/time jutsu. It's got a 5 sec recharge if I remember correctly but during that time he can use the rinnigan's abilities to repel attacks. It remains to be seen however if that protects him from sammahada's ability to absorb chakra since it takes chakra to use that ability
I don't recall reading about it having a 5 second recharge. I think you might be confusing Madara's 5 minute intangibility (http://www.narutopod.com/manga/Naruto-Chapter-510/05.png.php) with Shinra Tensei's 5 second Recharge.

[SenninSage]

Well, according to Hinata, Madara's chakra actually never moves from that location while he goes intangible. Shino's bugs were still able to absorb his chakra up until he used his Space-Time Ninjutsu to escape, so Bee with Samehada should be extremely dangerous for Madara.

And I've always held to the firm belief that Naruto's Kawazu Kumite (Frog Katas or Toad Sage Fist as it's called in Viz Manga) is the key to landing an attack on Madara while he's intangible. Naruto takes Natural Energy in his surrounding environment, makes it apart of himself, and then he uses it to attack his opponent. Well, Natural Energy can be used to directly attack something physical or solid. I suspect that it can also just as easily be used to land an attack on something that isn't, because the chakra or energy that makes up Madara while he's intangible is still very much there in that same spot.

Madara's limit with his intangible technique is 5 minutes at a time. He can't stay intangible for more than 5 minutes, and then we don't know how long he'll have to actually wait before he can perform the jutsu again after that initial 5 minutes. If someone can manage to lock an intangible Uchiha Madara into a consistent and deadly enough string of attacks for longer than a 5 minute period while he's intangible, they'd be almost assured to harm him when he's forced to exit his intangibility technique.

Kakashi already said the FRS packs so many attacks that his Sharingan can't keep up. Naruto won't always be limited to just two FRS while in Sennin Mode. He could create something like 12 or more shadow clones, and have them create and toss 4 FRS at different intervals. Naruto has a chakra sensory ability in Sennin Mode, so he'd be able to confirm if Madara actually changed his location somehow. It wouldn't be safe for Madara at all to exit intangibility or use his Space-Time Ninjutsu.

[bigman]

Kakashi already said the FRS packs so many attacks that his Sharingan can't keep up. Naruto won't always be limited to just two FRS while in Sennin Mode. He could create something like 12 or more shadow clones, and have them create and toss 4 FRS at different intervals.

High hopes for Naruto huh?... How long is this war supposed to last again? lol

[Zoro #1]

High hopes for Naruto huh?... How long is this war supposed to last again? lol

Thats what i'm wondering, it has only been like 1 or 2 days and half the people are dead already, unless there is a long process through which the juubi is revived i can see this war ending pretty quickly, otherwise kishi would have to draw things out quite a bit.

[Alexis]

Madara's limit with his intangible technique is 5 minutes at a time. He can't stay intangible for more than 5 minutes, and then we don't know how long he'll have to actually wait before he can perform the jutsu again after that initial 5 minutes. If someone can manage to lock an intangible Uchiha Madara into a consistent and deadly enough string of attacks for longer than a 5 minute period while he's intangible, they'd be almost assured to harm him when he's forced to exit his intangibility technique.
I doubt that anything can harm Madara while he is intangible. And the problem is that he also has Izanagi, which according to his fight with Konan lasts somewhere between 5 to 10+ minutes. (Him grasping his eye before she started the 10 minute barrage suggests that it could be slightly over 10 minutes.)
And he has a big stash of Sharingans he can teleport to whenever he wants. His abilities are just too hax to think about at the moment.


Anyway, I wonder if Bee and A will continue to fight? Or if A will cave and let them pass just because Killerbee finally surpassed his Lariat? That would be a weird reason to let them through though.

[roggie]

Well, according to Hinata, Madara's chakra actually never moves from that location while he goes intangible. Shino's bugs were still able to absorb his chakra up until he used his Space-Time Ninjutsu to escape, so Bee with Samehada should be extremely dangerous for Madara.

And I've always held to the firm belief that Naruto's Kawazu Kumite (Frog Katas or Toad Sage Fist as it's called in Viz Manga) is the key to landing an attack on Madara while he's intangible. Naruto takes Natural Energy in his surrounding environment, makes it apart of himself, and then he uses it to attack his opponent. Well, Natural Energy can be used to directly attack something physical or solid. I suspect that it can also just as easily be used to land an attack on something that isn't, because the chakra or energy that makes up Madara while he's intangible is still very much there in that same spot.

Madara's limit with his intangible technique is 5 minutes at a time. He can't stay intangible for more than 5 minutes, and then we don't know how long he'll have to actually wait before he can perform the jutsu again after that initial 5 minutes. If someone can manage to lock an intangible Uchiha Madara into a consistent and deadly enough string of attacks for longer than a 5 minute period while he's intangible, they'd be almost assured to harm him when he's forced to exit his intangibility technique.

Kakashi already said the FRS packs so many attacks that his Sharingan can't keep up. Naruto won't always be limited to just two FRS while in Sennin Mode. He could create something like 12 or more shadow clones, and have them create and toss 4 FRS at different intervals. Naruto has a chakra sensory ability in Sennin Mode, so he'd be able to confirm if Madara actually changed his location somehow. It wouldn't be safe for Madara at all to exit intangibility or use his Space-Time Ninjutsu.

You must be at shikamaru's level on strategy skills :) Nevertheless, and i must add i totally agree it should be as you said, i doubt forg kata will be enough to land a hit on an intangible Madara. Unless Madara shows unprecedent new powers, that would make him extremly vulnerable to Naruto. I believe a good amount of important characters will be needed to defeat that monster, not only Naruto.

But i really hope we can see more of the frog katas! Now that i think about it, if it can be used to "extend" a punch, it should be possible to create a shield or an aura of natural energy, even if its for just a split second.

[SenninSage]

Madara's use of his intangibility is timing based, for sure. With Naruto's Frog Katas, Naruto could potentially land a punch on Madara well before Madara even feels he's in any type of imminent danger, and thus should activate his intangibility, possibly surprising him with a connected hit before he goes intangible. And imagine the potential strategic benefits of such a thing while also using Shadow Clones as distractions, knowing full well Madara will have them pass through him, which should lore him into a false sense of security.

The reason why I suspect nature's energy itself would be able to hit Madara is because all things that exist, exist in nature, including an intangible Madara. For Madara to ever escape the energy of nature, he'd have to exist outside of nature itself while intangible, which I don't think is possible for any living creature or individual. I mean, Madara may seemingly be able to mask his chakra from sensors, but I don't think he can make his chakra truly non-existent, which is why Shino's bugs were able to keep absorbing his chakra even while he was making their attacks pass through him. His chakra was still there.

It might truly be the case that the only way imaginable to escape from being hit with natural energy from Naruto's Frog Katas, is to avoid it entirely. However, it's pretty difficult to dodge and avoid something you can't see, so they'd have to keep as far away from Naruto as humanely possible.

Only a Sage can see Natural Energy. The Rinnegan can't see it, the Sharingan can't see it, and the Byakugan shouldn't be able to see it either, because it isn't chakra. It's a form of energy, separate from physical energy and spiritual energy. Yep, Naruto could potentially use Natural Energy to shield himself from something like Amaterasu's flames temporarily. Amatarasu has been proven to not burn through everything immediately, so a shield of natural energy should be able to protect him for a period of time. As a matter of fact, how do you even burn nature's energy in the first place?

[Silvers Rayleigh]

Madara's use of his intangibility is timing based, for sure. With Naruto's Frog Katas, Naruto could potentially land a punch on Madara well before Madara even feels he's in any type of imminent danger, and thus should activate his intangibility, possibly surprising him with a connected hit before he goes intangible. And imagine the potential strategic benefits of such a thing while also using Shadow Clones as distractions, knowing full well Madara will have them pass through him, which should lore him into a false sense of security.

The reason why I suspect nature's energy itself would be able to hit Madara is because all things that exist, exist in nature, including an intangible Madara. For Madara to ever escape the energy of nature, he'd have to exist outside of nature itself while intangible, which I don't think is possible for any living creature or individual. I mean, Madara may seemingly be able to mask his chakra from sensors, but I don't think he can make his chakra truly non-existent, which is why Shino's bugs were able to keep absorbing his chakra even while he was making their attacks pass through him. His chakra was still there.

It might truly be the case that the only way imaginable to escape from being hit with natural energy from Naruto's Frog Katas, is to avoid it entirely. However, it's pretty difficult to dodge and avoid something you can't see, so they'd have to keep as far away from Naruto as humanely possible.

Only a Sage can see Natural Energy. The Rinnegan can't see it, the Sharingan can't see it, and the Byakugan shouldn't be able to see it either, because it isn't chakra. It's a form of energy, separate from physical energy and spiritual energy. Yep, Naruto could potentially use Natural Energy to shield himself from something like Amaterasu's flames temporarily. Amatarasu has been proven to not burn through everything immediately, so a shield of natural energy should be able to protect him for a period of time. As a matter of fact, how do you even burn nature's energy in the first place?

WOW wonder where you got that information from:-_-
Amaterasu will burn natural energy the same way it burns other flames, God i hate that jutsu

[EMS]

Madara has one major weakness when using those two eyes. The rinnegan uses even more chakra then the sharingan hence the reason an Uzamaki was able to use it so effectively. I think Madara can use it because Uchias have high chakra capacity but I doubt he'll be able to use any of the major techniques because they're so chakra intensive. Considering Bee's skills the only issue he ever had in battle was using too much chakra but with the sword he took from kisami that shouldn't be an issue any longer.
i was born with the greatest,strongest chakra they'd ever seen.
,http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/_Mangekyou_Sharingan_/madarauchiha.jpg

[Zoro #1]

WOW wonder where you got that information from:-_-
Amaterasu will burn natural energy the same way it burns other flames, God i hate that jutsu

It burns anything that the user focuses his eyes on, if the user can't see natural energy then he can't burn it. I think What senninsage meant was that the natural energy might help naruto buy few seconds to avoid the jutsu.

---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------


i was born with the greatest,strongest chakra they'd ever seen.


I think it more about the body than the chakra, both eyes put a lot of strain on the body of the user just look at nagato we was a walking skeleton.

[Roman]

Regardless of how much chakra Madara has, he is the descendant of the brother who inherited power in his eyes. Hashirama got the body. Madara may have implied that he got the strongest chakra by Uchiha's standards in their clan.

[Alexis]

The reason why I suspect nature's energy itself would be able to hit Madara is because all things that exist, exist in nature, including an intangible Madara. For Madara to ever escape the energy of nature, he'd have to exist outside of nature itself while intangible, which I don't think is possible for any living creature or individual. I mean, Madara may seemingly be able to mask his chakra from sensors, but I don't think he can make his chakra truly non-existent, which is why Shino's bugs were able to keep absorbing his chakra even while he was making their attacks pass through him. His chakra was still there.
Well that's leaving out the 'state' of things though. Two separate things can't necessarily affect each other just because they're on the same plane, so to speak. Their properties matter in this series. Otherwise, you could argue that something made out of chakra should be able to harm anything else made out of chakra. But that's not always the case. Just like how some energetic particles can't affect others. A beam of light can't disrupt radioactive energy, even though they're both made of energetic particles.

Anyway, Madara didn't seem to be intangible while the bugs were on him. We know this because they were able to absorb his chakra. http://www.narutopod.com/manga/Naruto-Chapter-395/07.png.php
He was staying solid because he needs to stay solid while absorbing himself.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8996/madaran.png

[Roman]

You guys still rant about character's powers. Though that is ridiculous, I'd say the logical answer would be Madara. On the good side, the choice would be A, even though we learned that B's capacity is far bigger than A ever imagined. Then, we have Sasuke with his Eternal Mangekyou who is probably strong as hell now. And of course, Naruto, whose powers are growing rapidly, from chapter to chapter. Either one of these guys could be entitled the strongest, but we won't know until Kishi decides it, will we?

[benelori]

Thread has been merged with Top ten living shinobi...you can continue discussing in the current format, or it's okay to post a list of top shinobis as well. However please state reasons for the chosen order.

Thanks!

[EMS]

Top six Strongest shinobi alive.

Tier 1.
1.-Madara.
Tier 2.
2.- & 3.-Naruto & sasuke or Sasuke & Naruto.
Tier 3.
4.-,5.- & 6.
Kabuto,Killer bee & Raikage.
This 6 to me are above the rest of the shinobies that are alive and so far they're in another league.

[Prince Sasuke]

1. Madara
2. Kabuto Can't deny him with his massive Edo Tensi
3. Killer bee
4&5. Sasuke and Naruto
6. Raikage

[Hauradrims3]

1. Madara
2. Kabuto
3. killer bee
4. sasuke
5. Raikage
6. Naruto