Chapter Naruto 545 Discussion [Archive] - Page 2

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 11:30 AM

Naruto isn't that great with his SC jutsu. He didn't even know they returned knowledge to him until Kakashi pointed it out to him. The only thing that he can do with his SC's better then anyone else is endlessly spam them. He can make a few hundred or a thousand because of his chakra pool. Other then that his SC use and mastery is absolutely no different then other shinobis who can use the same jutsu. Also why even waste time setting up such a premise in the first place? "For every clone you make he'll be absorbing a portion of your Naruto-chakra...you'd run out and die in an instant" (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/519/10). It doesn't get any more specific and clearer then that. So we go from that explanation with a single SC being shown in the Hachibi's example to "oh Naruto can just make 15 or w/e clones and be completely fine". If these rules aren't going to apply to Naruto then why bother even placing restrictions or limits in the first place? That whole SC Hachibi talk could have just been avoided. Because right now it absolutely hold no weight. "Don't use the SC jutsu or you will die in an instant"...."ok i'll just make 10+ SC's then!".

Well, there you go, then his ability to spam the shadow clone technique is on a level far surpassing any shinobi we've ever known of. Yea, he didn't initially know of all the shadow clone's secrets, but he's a monster with the jutsu, always has been. He's able to do things with the shadow clone technique that no other shinobi we have ever seen is capable of doing.

In your entire post, you are missing one vital piece of information: The Hachibi knows very, very little, if anything, about Naruto's insane mastery and ability with the Shadow Clone Technique.

It isn't just because of Naruto's chakra pool that he can make so many and maintain the jutsu the way he can. It's all down to his natural stamina that he was gifted with from the start. He is an Uzumaki, but then the Kyuubi his whole life has been making his stamina even more impressive. Remember Orochimaru said that the Kyuubi's power would be mixing with Naruto's over time.

If it were all down to Naruto's chakra capacity, then Naruto making just 4 shadow clones -- since his chakra is perfectly divided between himself and all the clones he creates -- would be down to just 20% of his reserves. Why isn't that the case for Naruto? Because his stamina is so incredible that his recovery time is amazing, allowing more stamina to again convert into chakra. This has been established since part one. They weren't referring to Naruto as just some chakra monster, he was, on occasion, to a freak in the stamina department. It has never been just about chakra capacity with Naruto.

If it was, there wouldn't be so much that made him special, or different from other people who had great chakra capacity. His stamina and ability to recover from using ninjutsu, or from physically exerting himself, is one of his most powerful assets.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 11:33 AM

next after meeting Bee i would say next thing should be Tsunade of the Senju vs Uchiha Madara! Anyone else seeing how epic and meaningful and deep this fight would be?!?

It certainly would be meaningful, but I don't see how Tsunade will stand a chance... Perhaps she and Raikage will fight together though.. But really, im not saying Tsunade is weak, but we have never been shown proof or even hints of a destructive side of hers except massive strenght, but that alone won't do anything to Madara...

Will Tsunade even stand a chance to fight on close to even grounds?

NAM61

June 29, 2011, 11:33 AM

I saw Tsunade has the same mark on her forehead as Uzumaki Mito thus showing her Uzumaki ancestry.the way Madara talked about the dissappearance of the Senjus Will of Fire plus the way Tsunade figured out Madaras immortality plus the old Sage-Frogs prediction of Naruto fighting "the young man with such power in his eyes" next after meeting Bee i would say next thing should be Tsunade of the Senju vs Uchiha Madara! Anyone else seeing how epic and meaningful and deep this fight would be?!?

mito is tsunades grandmother after all. and i think madara was talking about the end of the senju will of fire was referring to naruto. madara did say naruto reminded him of shodai.i doubt madara will fight tsunade i think she will just fight dan

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 11:35 AM

In your entire post, you are missing one vital piece of information: The Hachibi knows very, very little, if anything, about Naruto's insane mastery and ability with the Shadow Clone Technique.

So lots of chakra to spam a jutsu = Insane Mastery now? What? Everything Naruto does with his SC's is a direct result of his possessing a lot of chakra. He throws as many SC's out there as he needs to in order to get the job because he can due to his chakra. His SC jutsu mastery is no different then anyone elses. Unless of course you define mastery as spamming a jutsu. In which case Naruto is the Yoda of SC's.

NAM61

June 29, 2011, 11:37 AM

So what used to take him six hands to do he can now create FRS with one finger?

Bee tells him he can't create Kage Bushin in this form, yet he makes a bunch?

He couldn't even make a Rasengan before in this form, yet now he can make multiple at once?

I'm very confused....

And just to clarify, God only knows what Sasuke is going to be capable of now thanks EMS. So there should be no bitching about his power-ups after everything Naruto just did lol.
bee did not says he could not create clones in RM just that if he does he would lose chakra and die quicker. not that it is was impossible to do. and after he came back from his sage mode training he only needed one other clone to create the frs and now he can create mini hands to compensate for the clones. and bee said naruto was almost done creating the rasenbomb when he lost control,after sensing kin.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 11:37 AM

In the end, Naruto will find a way to merge Rikudo and Sage Mode.

Because Sage Mode gives you natural chakra while your real chakra could regather in that moment. Basically, in Sage Mode, you dont loose chakra, you gain chakra.

No, Sage Mode gives you Natural Energy, which when molded with your chakra creates Sage Chakra. Essentially, your chakra supply last longer but you don't gain any chakra, you simply loose it at a slower rate.

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 11:37 AM

About Naruto making shadow clones, he made them at the end of the chapter so I'd expect some sort of negative effect or a warning from Bee at the beginning of the next chapter. If this dosen't happen then I'd say it's fair to explain. We all know that Naruto has large amounts of chakra so he won't die as soon as he makes a single shadow clone.

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 11:38 AM

i wonder does that frog stand around all day on the frog mountain with his arms cross ready for someone to summon him so he can come into the fight looking like a boss, it cant be coincidence lol

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 11:40 AM

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 11:41 AM

Even directly after the timeskip kakashi praised naruto improved KB timing, etc. Anything else?

Now was that before or after the SC jutsu Master Naruto realized that his most used jutsu returned knowledge to him?

jalix

June 29, 2011, 11:43 AM

Naruto, for all this epicness though, will be nerfed at some point. For as badass as even Madara's proven to be, we haven't seen him use his EMS... mysteriuosly. And we havent' even seen is MS. I don't think we even saw it when he attacked Konoha and controlled the kyuubi, strange as it is. More was confirmed, but I still have some weird suspicions about this Madara/Tobi character based on that and the mask... unless the guy is just fugly...

jdw

June 29, 2011, 11:43 AM

Now was that before or after the SC jutsu Master Naruto realized that his most used jutsu returned knowledge to him?

Thats fine, but it is clearly more than just spam. Naruto uses KB's very creatively all the time.

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 11:44 AM

Naruto's use of shadow clones won him the fight against Kakuzu and Pain, No-one else has been shown to use Shadow clones as effectively as Naruto.

Thats because no one can use as many clones as he can. In battles he constantly throws away clones and chakra left and right. He isn't effective with his SC jutsu usage. He just uses the jutsu enough times to the point where it becomes effective.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 11:44 AM

i wonder does that frog stand around all day on the frog mountain with his arms cross ready for someone to summon him so he can come into the fight looking like a boss, it cant be coincidence lol

HAHA i was thinking the same thing, Lol maybe the get a tingle feeling before be summon, so that they can prepare to enter looking badass.

White Silver King

June 29, 2011, 11:44 AM

It seems Tsunade's Yin Seal is an Uzumaki Clan sealing tech. I wonder why Tsunade doesn't use more Fuinjutsu - she is a direct Uzumaki descendant.

Mack

June 29, 2011, 11:45 AM

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 11:46 AM

Naruto can cancel the clone, also the clone can cancel himself.

Are you sure? I don't remember anywhere where we see the original cancel the clone, only the clones cancelling them selves..
Don't need a link or anything, would love to know where abouts in the story it is shown or told in short words.

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 11:46 AM

Thats fine, but it is clearly more than just spam. Naruto uses KB's very creatively all the time.

No one is denying that. The issue at hand is how well he uses his SC's. And he only uses them well because he can make so many of them. He constantly use 10X more clones then needed to accomplish something. And constantly looses 10x more clones then he needs to. Thats not exactly being a master at something. Its just possessing an ability that allows you to spam a skill. He relies purely on attrition when it comes to his SC jutsu. Not effectiveness. Hiruzen took out two Kage with two shadow clones. Thats effectiveness and mastery and knowing how to maximize the jutsu's usage. Naruto would have thrown hundreds of clones away before figuring out something.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 11:47 AM

bee did not says he could not create clones in RM just that if he does he would lose chakra and die quicker. not that it is was impossible to do. and after he came back from his sage mode training he only needed one other clone to create the frs and now he can create mini hands to compensate for the clones. and bee said naruto was almost done creating the rasenbomb when he lost control,after sensing kin.

So I misspoke, it doesn't matter though, because according to Bee, Naruto should drop dead momentarily because of all the clones he just made.

As for FRS, even still, he needed three hands to create it or whatever. A man with average at best chakra control just managed to make one of the most complicated jutsu in the world with the tip of his finger.

While I can only half believe the utter BS of Naruto doing what he's doing now, I'll accept it. But I can't wait, can not wait, until everyone starts bitching about what power-ups Sasuke gets, because I will point right back to this chapter lol.

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 11:47 AM

I still don't get it ... he tried NORMAL rasengan and it automaticly went into bijuu bomb ... how in the hell is he able to do normal rasengans and even FRS??? Kinda BS for me

lordHokage

June 29, 2011, 11:48 AM

Tobi may have all the different cells and everything, but he doesn't have the proper chakra as everything he has isn't native to him. It's not as if he was born that way like Nagato or Rikudou. If he the chakra can make cells grow and Tobi has all these cells in one body that he's trying to perfectly combine into one creation, he's going to need that chakra to make it possible. It's likely why he wants all of the bijuu chakra and to possibly seal the bijuu inside him. I think the chakra is what will allow him to grow a new body. Seeing as Naruto's chakra can do just that, he's likely decided to target Naruto in hopes of growing a body. I think Tobi understands Naruto's power more than Naruto understands him. Don't forget that they will both look completely different to each other than they were before.

Naruto continues to prove that he's one of the most awesome Shinobi to watch in combat, and also one of the most creative.

Don't get me started on the idea he came up with for his Rasengan Riot, or that Rasengan Vacuum Jutsu he used. He's so damn cool, it isn't even funny really.

And that mini Rasen-Shuriken? How many ways is there to say that Naruto is awesome?

This just makes me all that more certain that my original prediction, that Naruto will have a Sealing Rasengan in his arsenal, all the more likely. He will activate his father'seal key on his right arm, which, when combined with the markings already all over Naruto's body, will give Naruto the power to seal his enemies.

toussaintac, what Tobi doesn't understand is that if he secretly extracts Naruto's powers, he and his Six Path of Pain will slowly turn into stone. Naruto's powers are not only Rikudou power and Kyuubi power but its Sage powers too and they are all connected. :p

SenninSage, the possibilities of Rasengan variation is endless. Sealing Rasengan sounds good but Absorbing Chakra Rasengan sounds better. Imagine Naruto perfoming Tajuu Kage Bunshin no jutsu of Mini Absorbing Chakra Rasengan. Why would Naruto use his chakra when he has an army of white Zetsu's chakra and abilities at his disposal. :D

akatsuki27

June 29, 2011, 11:49 AM

So I misspoke, it doesn't matter though, because according to Bee, Naruto should drop dead momentarily because of all the clones he just made.

As for FRS, even still, he needed three hands to create it or whatever. A man with average at best chakra control just managed to make one of the most complicated jutsu in the world with the tip of his finger.

While I can only half believe the utter BS of Naruto doing what he's doing now, I'll accept it. But I can't wait, can not wait, until everyone starts bitching about what power-ups Sasuke gets, because I will point right back to this chapter lol.

Well, technically he did use 3 outputs, so that didnt change...he used 2 mini chakra hands and his finger

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 11:51 AM

The naruto vs pain fight, naruto cancel his clone to gain the Sage mode chakra from the clone

hmm... I would have to go back and re-read it, as I remember it, the clone unleashed it self upon summoning.
Interesting if he actually can though.

demons_halo

June 29, 2011, 11:52 AM

he is apparently using the kyuubis chakra to manipulate his own in order to create a normal rasengan. On the other hand if he use the kyuubis chakra to create a rasengan, that will turn into a bijuu bomb.

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 11:52 AM

Fantastic post, and this is essentially what it boils down to. Naruto, thanks to his ability and extraordinary stamina + chakra, is much better with the kage bunshin than most. It would be a disaster if the introduction of the Kyuubi feeding on his chakra were to somehow make him like that of a normal shinobi when using the Shadow Clone technique.

Which verifies the fact that tajuu kage bunshin is a forbidden jutsu and had to be kept away from shinobis. Not anyone has the strength/stamina/chakra capacity or even sheer will to perform this jutsu since it is dangerous.

UchihaUchiha

June 29, 2011, 11:52 AM

mito is tsunades grandmother after all. and i think madara was talking about the end of the senju will of fire was referring to naruto. madara did say naruto reminded him of shodai.i doubt madara will fight tsunade i think she will just fight dan

yes mito is her grandmother. thats what makes Tsunade so special.she as a Senju and Uzumaki Hokage is definitely worth being Madaras opponent.the "Senjus Will of Fire" refers to the whole spirit of the Leaf.dont you underestimate Senju Hashiramas granddaughter.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 11:53 AM

Rarhyx

June 29, 2011, 11:55 AM

Mini rasenshuriken: LOL

naruto is awesome, just awesome.

this chapter makes me think sasuke will lose aginst naruto xD

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 11:55 AM

No one is denying that. The issue at hand is how well he uses his SC's. And he only uses them well because he can make so many of them. He constantly use 10X more clones then needed to accomplish something. And constantly looses 10x more clones then he needs to. Thats not exactly being a master at something. Its just possessing an ability that allows you spam a skill. He relies purely on attrition when it comes to his SC jutsu. Not effectiveness. Hiruzen took out two Kage with 2 shadow clones. Thats effectiveness and mastery and knowing how to maximize the jutus usage. Naruto would have thrown hundreds of clones away before figuring out something.

How effective the use of a technique is not based on how many you use, it's the end result. So what if Naruto spams SC, the point is that it distracts the opponent and gets the job done. Overuse of shadow clones dosen't really apply to Naruto b/c of his large chakra pool, it's only a negative reprecussion if it prevents him from using other techniques, which I don't think it ever has.

jalix

June 29, 2011, 11:55 AM

Yeah it was pretty deliberate. They seem to be keeping what happened to it tightly under wraps. Goes with the conspiracy around all of those eyes he has IMO and why he'd go for the Uchiha massacre too.

edit: here's the chapter

http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/501

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 11:55 AM

toussaintac, what Tobi doesn't understand is that if he secretly extracts Naruto's powers, he and his Six Path of Pain will slowly turn into stone. Naruto's powers are not only Rikudou power and Kyuubi power but its Sage powers too and they are all connected. :p

SenninSage, the possibilities of Rasengan variation is endless. Sealing Rasengan sounds good but Absorbing Chakra Rasengan sounds better. Imagine Naruto perfoming Tajuu Kage Bunshin no jutsu of Mini Absorbing Chakra Rasengan. Why would Naruto use his chakra when he has an army of white Zetsu's chakra and abilities at his disposal. :D

Naruto isn't using Sage Mode. He also isn't drawing in Natural energy either. I'm talking about Tobi somehow getting the chakra that Naruto is using in Bijuu Chakra mode. If Tobi can somehow steal that chakra fast (which is likely easy for him) he could use it to power his cells and expedite the growth to the point that he regenerates a new body. It's not as if Naruto would even know that that's what Tobi's plan is in the first place. I'm saying that that's what i think Tobi has planned. Tobi needs a new body. He has all these different cells combined but not perfectly combined. Naruto's chakra gives life to things around it. Put that together and tobi may be trying to take advantage of the properties of Naruto's new chakra.

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 11:58 AM

How effective the use of a technique is not based on how many you use, it's the end result. So what if Naruto spams SC, the point is that it distracts the opponent and gets the job done. Overuse of shadow clones dosen't really apply to Naruto b/c of his large chakra pool, it's only a negative reprecussion if it prevents him from using other techniques, which I don't think it ever has.

So what you are saying is that the archer that needs 50 shots to hit a bulls eye is just as effective and as good at his craft as the archer who needs 2 shots to hit the bulls eyes because they both still hit the bullseye? Yeah....that works.

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 11:58 AM

we all should be able to admit that naruto has stepped up his shadow clone game since the beginning where he had to compensate with mass clones for what he lacked in other jutsus but nows hes at a point where he uses just the right amount to get the job done. he uses 3 or 4 at a time on the guy with the hearts to access his fighting strategy, he used a mixture of 3 to 4 clones on pain to eliminate each path till he deva, on deva he used just enough to get him the 5 second window he needed, and overwhelmed the kyuubi with enough numbers to drag out the kyuubi's chakra. i dont kno about most but that seems pretty consistent with mastering a tool to fit the job you need it to perform

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 11:59 AM

I mean it is a jutsu, I am sure he can cancel it if he wants.

So true, but it is a special jutso.. It seems to lean to both sides actually..
We once saw the Kyuubi disrupt his clones (back in the rescue Gara arc), so somehow they got a "live" connection to the real body and you may be right, it's a cancelable jutsu.
I just find it odd, that it was never shown more clear, giving the impression that cloes are acting on their own untill they decide to return, get killed or run out of fuel (chakra).

Either way, you're probably right, it's just still very odd.

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 12:01 PM

I think the reason for all the rasengans and clones is to make it interesting and more dynamic and dramatic. I'm sure Naruto, in this form, could just kick, punch, or chakra arm each of the Zetsus but people would be saying that's boring and people would be wondering why he didn't use rasengans or use multiple arms to slam all the Zetsus at one time or something.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 12:04 PM

Naruto isn't using Sage Mode. He also isn't drawing in Natural energy either. I'm talking about Tobi somehow getting the chakra that Naruto is using in Bijuu Chakra mode. If Tobi can somehow steal that chakra fast (which is likely easy for him) he could use it to power his cells and expedite the growth to the point that he regenerates a new body. It's not as if Naruto would even know that that's what Tobi's plan is in the first place. I'm saying that that's what i think Tobi has planned. Tobi needs a new body. He has all these different cells combined but not perfectly combined. Naruto's chakra gives life to things around it. Put that together and tobi may be trying to take advantage of the properties of Naruto's new chakra.

I dont think it would be easy for him to steal naruto chakra, and base on what I have seen from this chapter naruto turns the zetsu's into trees, I think the same would most likely happen to madara if they came in contact, I am not sure but it would make sense, not that I am trying to put logic in this >< oh no I wouldn't do that. and plus madara plan is to use naruto chakra to finish his moon eyes plan, not to regenerate the cells in his body to get a new one.

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

lol yes ? ....

:rolleyes:

Maybe you have to read it again. You saw the kyuubi's eyes change, but I don't remember seeing 'Madara's' sharingan change. It was very much deliberate. Cute response though.

I opologize on the last page, I misread you post and thought you said that we have not seen madara take control of the kyubi 16 years ago, Sorry again. I didn't see that you said Use the Ems during that time.

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 12:04 PM

someone explain this:

I still don't get it ... Naruto tried NORMAL rasengan and it automaticly went into bijuu bomb when he was in RS mode ... how in the hell is he able to do normal rasengans and even FRS while being in RS mode??? Kinda BS for me

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 12:05 PM

I think the reason for all the rasengans and clones is to make it interesting and more dynamic and dramatic. I'm sure Naruto, in this form, could just kick, punch, or chakra arm each of the Zetsus but people would be saying that's boring

Agreed, if Naruto is a master in anything, it would be to waste chakra, lol... and it was enough to kick, it was how the first Zetsu ended.
But he's also in a hurry, people are dying rapidly if he dosnt hurry, using high level techniques certainly gets the trick done in a flash :tem

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 12:05 PM

So what you are saying is that the archer that needs 50 shots to hit a bulls eye is just as effective and as good at his craft as the archer who needs 2 shots to hit the bulls eyes because they both still hit the bullseye? Yeah....that works.

Good point, but if the usage of those two clones prevented Hiruzen from finishing off Orochimaru due to lack of stamina then they can't be considered as effective. My point is that greater use of shadow clones can't be considered less effective for Naruto because they won't cause the same negative effects for him as they will other people. He wastes chakra yes, but he still has enough to defeat an opponent.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 12:08 PM

someone explain this:

maybe that applies to the original rasengan, I am not sure that the rasengan we saw during this chapter was normal, I know the Frs is not.

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 12:08 PM

maybe that applies to the original rasengan, I am not sure that the rasengan we saw during this chapter was normal, I know the Frs is not.

well it looked like normal rasengans and FRS to me...

Mack

June 29, 2011, 12:13 PM

hmm... I would have to go back and re-read it, as I remember it, the clone unleashed it self upon summoning.
Interesting if he actually can though.

It is here
http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/433/7

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 12:14 PM

well it looked like normal rasengans and FRS to me...

hmm.. abit theory; will Rasengan be stronger with more chakra? Essentially, it dosn't seem like it, and that all it takes is a minimum about of chakra for it to reach a critical point, where the chakra spinning will attempth to rip apart whatever it hits.
In other words, it's a very cheap and destructive jutso, it dosnt eat up alot of chakra.

So it really woulnd't matter if he used his own chakra or the Kyuubi's chakra, the result of a normal rasengan or FRS would "likely" be the same.

jalix

June 29, 2011, 12:15 PM

someone explain this:

I think it was said to be his father's work-around to mimmick the tailed beast bomb, but I'm not sure he was trying to do a normal rasengan back then. Maybe they were different? With the tailed beast bomb rasengan he was doing he might have been trying to integrate another part to it, which was much harder to do. Maybe someone else though can elaborate. Could be wrong - maybe it is the same one after-all and he just mastered the technique off panel.

http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/519/6

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 12:16 PM

Good point, but if the usage of those two clones prevented Hiruzen from finishing off Orochimaru due to lack of stamina then they can't be considered as effective. My point is that greater use of shadow clones can't be considered less effective for Naruto because they won't cause the same negative effects for him as they will other people. He wastes chakra yes, but he still has enough to defeat an opponent.

I completely agree that Naruto has accomplished some insane things with his SC's. That can't be argued. However the point that i'm making is that he accomplishes all of that because he can throw so many SC's out there at once. And to be called a master at something among other things you need to be able to fully maximize the full effectiveness of a skill or ability. Naruto does that to a certain extent, but he only does that when he uses hundreds of clones. And subsequently he ends up wasting most of those clones and their chakra in the process. I can't call someone a master of something if they are so wasteful in accomplishing a goal. Yes Naruto can afford to be wasteful because of his chakra pool. But how great would he be if he accomplished things with 1-2 clones that normally he would need 50 clones to accomplish? Everyone talks about Minato being so great due to him never really wasting movements or techniques or doing everything with a direct purpose. Naruto still hasn't gotten past that with his SC jutsu, because so many of this clones are just thrown needlessly away. Thats why i can't call him a master of the SC jutsu.

THM Nindo

June 29, 2011, 12:21 PM

Karin was able to sense chakra the darkness of it, naruto is able to sense evil thoughts and intensions

That's why I said "similar" power and not "the same" power.

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 12:22 PM

from what i gather you use the yin and yang chakra of a bijuu to create a bijuu bomb. the first rasengan naruto did in the cloak he accidentally added yin and yang chakra into his rasengan, and aftewards started trying to combine the two to make the bijuu rasengan but couldnt get the ratio right each time. i figure if he could add yin and yang chakra to a rasengan to try and make a bijuu rasengan that he could make one like normal using his chakra arms.

jaymizzo

June 29, 2011, 12:24 PM

@ Zerocooldx

Actually, Naruto has gone past that stage of not wasting his chakra.

In the Fight Vs Pein, he displayed great improvement on his KB Timing and execution, all the KB He had had a purpose and not a single one was wasted.

And even when he wastes KB, he sacrifices them for a greater purpose - Shinobi need to sacrifice right?

Naruto mightn't be a God at KB, but he certainly is proficient enough with it to be considered a Master.

P.S. Naruto hardly ever wastes Chakra anymore

luffyg2

June 29, 2011, 12:26 PM

I though Naruto could not use Kage bushin while in fox mode.... and how is madara immortal when Konan nearly killed him...anyway nice action sequence there with all of Naruto's new move.. loved that mini rasenshuriken

sarutobi_sensei

June 29, 2011, 12:27 PM

Mini rasenshuriken: LOL

naruto is awesome, just awesome.

this chapter makes me think sasuke will lose aginst naruto xD

Lol and you had doubts that Sasuke would lose against Naruto? I mean, srsl? You really did?

What's this about Naruto not being a master @ Kage Bunshin? The guy has complete control over them. He knows how to effectively use it, and even if Bee says something like, you shouldn't use them in this mode, he'll still use them and say something to be like, I know what I'm doing, and then we get an explanation.

RaveDragon

June 29, 2011, 12:30 PM

Naruto grew very strong, but kishimoto overpowerd madara but in a way naruto too if he can finally use the full ninetails power which i guess is what he'll aim at a despearate naruto seeing or feeling his friends getting hurt and finally does it after either coming to an agreement with the ninetails who would hate madara the most (common 'hate' here) and agree to help or Naruto really finally seals his darkness.

Am i the only one who wants to see a nonetails flashback maybe he was actually a nice tailed beast and then people hurt it (killing its wife and children maybe?)

xaither

June 29, 2011, 12:31 PM

I like naruto's confidence this chapter

" well thats one piece of good news, I wont have to hold back any of my strength then"

god- I wonder how powerfull he is still, even after hearing its an army of immortals :D

pancheda

June 29, 2011, 12:32 PM

He went HARD! mini frs! its nice to see naruto being ruthless. Tho i am a little confused on the whole you can't use shadown clones, when he just spawned a shit load of them, Madara is gonna wear him down then get him tbh.

Now if naruto is summoning up natural Chakra is the 9 nails going to turn into a statue?

bigman

June 29, 2011, 12:34 PM

Hm so anyone think after Naruto gets rid of the Zetsus hes gonna just drop because he blatantly ignored the Hachibi's advice. Like really, Hachibi said make no clones and how many did Naruto just make? And all those Rasengans and the mini FRS had no kyubi chakra in it, just Naruto's. I have a feeling a comatose Naruto is about to appear after he finishes the Zetsus and everyone will have to defend his resting body. If not then... I dunno, Naruto has no restrictions and seems a little over powered so far but I guess Sasuke's EMS will fix that.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 12:35 PM

I completely agree that Naruto has accomplished some insane things with his SC's. That can't be argued. However the point that i'm making is that he accomplishes all of that because he can throw so many SC's out there at once. And to be called a master at something among other things you need to be able to fully maximize the full effectiveness of a skill or ability. Naruto does that to a certain extent, but he only does that when he uses hundreds of clones. And subsequently he ends up wasting most of those clones and their chakra in the process. I can't call someone a master of something if they are so wasteful in accomplishing a goal. Yes Naruto can afford to be wasteful because of his chakra pool. But how great would he be if he accomplished things with 1-2 clones that normally he would need 50 clones to accomplish? Everyone talks about Minato being so great due to him never really wasting movements or techniques or doing everything with a direct purpose. Naruto still hasn't gotten past that with his SC jutsu, because so many of this clones are just thrown needlessly away. Thats why i can't call him a master of the SC jutsu.

I agree with you if you look at Naruto in the past, but Naruto dosn't really waste any clones anymore, not since he actually learned more of "other" techniques than his first "SC" tech. He used to use desperate measures, spamming it, but now, it's alot more in control...

Since he learned FRS, we have seen Naruto use SC in many clever ways, some never seen from other ninjas or to that level... This is like writing a ph.d at the university, you have to come with something new to the community you study in. Naruto has seemingly done that, and a ph.d is a master, one way or another. I know it's abit farfetched to compare with a ph.d, but it's just the point I try to make.

Below is what he came up with on his own, sure Kakashi told him that clones bring back knowledge, but we don't have to invent the deep plate twice right? Instead we take it further, advancing what we today take as obvious and granted.

1: He created a smoke scene and smashed 2 of Pains dead bodies in a very smart and tactical way, thats pretty good useage of 1-2 clones if you ask me.
2: He used his mass shadow clones to fast locate Sasuke nearby, since his not a sensory type, this is rather brilliant, not desperate.
3: He used mass shadow clones in a tactical way against Pain, towards the end, overwhelming him while he was down. While it looks similar to his past desperate moves, it actually was a plan and tactic rather than a instant desperate spammed move like in the past.
4: Sending out 1 clone in each direction to "fight" issn't the same as his usual way in the past, if that clone looses, then it will vanish and that area is lost to Zetsu. This move is great as well.
5: He uses his shadowclones to create a technique, far superior to that of normal Rasengan, did any other Ninja do this in the past? Unknown, but also unlikely.

What keeps you from saying he has not mastered Shadow Clone? He basically does whatever is possible with it. Created new ways of fighting with it. He also has not wasted a move with shadow clones since Kakashi taught him about them bringing back knowledge...

If Naruto is not good enough to be a master of shadow clones, then I would like to see one who is :blink

xaither

June 29, 2011, 12:37 PM

$nipe

June 29, 2011, 12:37 PM

So what you are saying is that the archer that needs 50 shots to hit a bulls eye is just as effective and as good at his craft as the archer who needs 2 shots to hit the bulls eyes because they both still hit the bullseye? Yeah....that works.

Effective is not the same as efficient. Accomplishing an objective means being effective; doing it by using less resources means being efficient.

So yes, both examples show effectiveness.

DaHeroic1

June 29, 2011, 12:38 PM

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 12:40 PM

This chapter really shows how powerful of a life force Hashirama had. Just by having his cells Madara can't die by age and this really shows why Orochimaru the man who wanted to prolong his life as long as possible studied Hashirama so intently. This also brings up the question of how Hashirama died. Since he's he original he should of been immortal to but the only way he could of died is if someone killed him. I used to think he died of his wounds from Madara but he lived long enough to be a grandfather so who knows.

He wasn't around when Tsuande was born, so while he is a grandfather, he wasn't around then.

Deepak5191

June 29, 2011, 12:40 PM

That chapter was pretty damn epic. Kishi multiplied Naruto's aresenal in a single chapter with so many different rasengan variations. Mini FRS is a good idea and being able to throw it helps immensely.

DaHeroic1

June 29, 2011, 12:42 PM

He wasn't around when Tsuande was born, so while he was a grandfather, he wasn't around then.

Wasn't their a scene where Hashirama was holding Tsunade in his arm though if i remember correctly?

sarutobi_sensei

June 29, 2011, 12:43 PM

And what about Naruto being able to rotate his mini rasenshuriken to enhance their rotation power? Making them even faster :D

lordHokage

June 29, 2011, 12:43 PM

Naruto isn't currently in Sage Mode, he doesn't always have Natural Energy in him. Even still, all Madara needs to do is put a genjutsu on him to knock him out and he can do whatever he wants to him.

Naruto isn't using Sage Mode. He also isn't drawing in Natural energy either. I'm talking about Tobi somehow getting the chakra that Naruto is using in Bijuu Chakra mode. If Tobi can somehow steal that chakra fast (which is likely easy for him) he could use it to power his cells and expedite the growth to the point that he regenerates a new body. It's not as if Naruto would even know that that's what Tobi's plan is in the first place. I'm saying that that's what i think Tobi has planned. Tobi needs a new body. He has all these different cells combined but not perfectly combined. Naruto's chakra gives life to things around it. Put that together and tobi may be trying to take advantage of the properties of Naruto's new chakra.

With Sage power, Rikudou power and Kyuubi power, Genjutsu is cancel out. Naruto was in Sage Mode (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/57765310/13). Tobi stealing Naruto's chakra is possible but would that help him, I think not because Natural Energy play a big role in Naruto's chakra giving life to things and since Tobi is so evil, one drop of Naruto’s goodness will either turn him into stone or a completely new character. :p

Deepak5191

June 29, 2011, 12:44 PM

Ok now I have a theory on why naruto is able to do teh Resengans normally, Before naruto had Wind chakra correct, Now when he tried to use the resengan he accidentally used his new chakra nature, yin-yang. But in this chapter we were able to see naruto created the Frs, which use wind chakra, so naruto is has three chakra nature which for some odd reason came to me. Wind,Ying,Yang.

I just assumed that he provided his own chakra this time rather than the QB chakra. Just using the hands for sculpting the rasengan instead. Although I still don't how he is able to create multiple rasengan and even FRS (even if it is tiny) just by himself when the biggest problem for him was the concentration required. It's still the same Naruto so the same problems should be there even if was using the bijuu cloak.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 12:44 PM

This chapter really shows how powerful of a life force Hashirama had. Just by having his cells Madara can't die by age and this really shows why Orochimaru the man who wanted to prolong his life as long as possible studied Hashirama so intently. This also brings up the question of how Hashirama died. Since he's he original he should of been immortal to but the only way he could of died is if someone killed him. I used to think he died of his wounds from Madara but he lived long enough to be a grandfather so who knows.

lol interesting... Kinda raises the question how Madara who is way inferior than Oro in science, managed immortality in the same way both was seeking, yet Oro went out of his way to switch bodies instead.

Another part 1 part 2 plot hole perhaps?

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 12:45 PM

Wasn't their a scene where Hashirama was holding Tsunade in his arm though if i remember correctly?

Not that I remember. To me, it seemed like he died right after fighting Madara. By the way to the story was told by Madara it seems like Tobirama took over as Hokage right after.

And in this fight with Madara, I'm guessing Hashirama took serious injuries to the point that, even he who has this incredible life force died of his wounds after.

IMO, this just makes the most sense to me.

shuha27

June 29, 2011, 12:47 PM

I thought Naruto couldn't use his shadow clone technique in nine tails form. Does that mean him and the nine tails are finally cooperating with one another?

Adv2011

June 29, 2011, 12:48 PM

Madara as a villain is beyond epic.my guess is Senju Tsunade vs Uchiha Madara next.that´d be a fight as meaningful as Hashirama vs Madara.

Tsunade is all out and every ninja child can beat 2 big boobs so it will be a big disrespect to Madara's intelligent! what i still think is that Madara is just playing with everything to make them think his eye moon plan is real because There was no need for him to let Kisame not defeat bee and bring him back just for some information of how naruto is developing his new powers....

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 12:48 PM

Not that I remember. To me, it seemed like he died right after fighting Madara. By the way to the story was told by Madara it seems like Tobirama took over as Hokage right after.

And in this fight with Madara, I'm guessing Hashirama took serious injuries to the point that, even he who has this incredible life force died of his wounds after.

IMO, this just makes the most sense to me.

Agreed, it is what makes most sense to me as well.
Just sad though, it gives the impression that Madara in reality was the one who won the fight, sure Hashirama could have stopped Madara's plans, but Madara would still have won the "fight" surviving and Hashirama dying from injuries.

*sad panda*

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 12:51 PM

With Sage power, Rikudou power and Kyuubi power, Genjutsu is cancel out. Naruto was in Sage Mode (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/57765310/13). Tobi stealing Naruto's chakra is possible but would that help him, I think not because Natural Energy play a big role in Naruto's chakra giving life to things and since Tobi is so evil, one drop of Naruto’s goodness will either turn him into stone or a completely new character. :p

Are you blind? Where the fuck is Naruto in Sage Mode lol.

Naruto's "life energry" from Rikudou Mode is not Sage Mode, they are completely different.

And while it's entirely possible Madara ill turn into a Tree if he absorbs Naruto's chakra (which I highly doubt will happen), it is also entirely possible Madara's strength will be taken to knew heights.

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:49 PM ----------

Agreed, it is what makes most sense to me as well.
Just sad though, it gives the impression that Madara in reality was the one who won the fight, sure Hashirama could have stopped Madara's plans, but Madara would still have won the "fight" surviving and Hashirama dying from injuries.

*sad panda*

IMO, I think they exchanged death blows. Madara immediatly died from his, but used Izanagi to bring himself back to life at the cost of a lot of his power.

Hashirama recieved wounds and retreated to his comrades, Madara having his cells didn't want to follow and die again, and so he left. Hashirama then died a few days later simply because he was probably torn to shreds.

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 12:52 PM

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 12:56 PM

lol interesting... Kinda raises the question how Madara who is way inferior than Oro in science, managed immortality in the same way both was seeking, yet Oro went out of his way to switch bodies instead.

Another part 1 part 2 plot hole perhaps?

Well, not anyone is capable of harnessing, let alone, inject, the DNA/cells of Shodai Hokage. That's is why only Yamato survived out of the many babies Oro experimented with. Who knows, maybe Madara's body is capable of doing just that.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 12:56 PM

i wonder to what extent does naruto's cloak effect mokuton, i can see it basically turns zetsu's to trees but how exactly? is it like what happened to danzo's arm and their chakra goes haywire and they spontaneously root (sorry bad pun), im curious cause i wonder what will happen in the tournament when the first hokages trees touch naruto, wil they just grow out of control or what? and the last thing madara needs is to be dynamic entry kicked in the face by naruto and a tree grows out the side of his head and ruining his perfectly good stolen eye lol

It seemed to only happen when the zetsus died and lost control of their chakra that they turned into trees. We didn't see spontanous growth for no reason, he kicked their ass and they turned into trees.

God, and I though Naruto was a hippie before, Hug no Jutsu, Book no Jutsu, Talk no Jutsu, and now the all new TREE NO JUTSU!

KnuckleheadedNinja

June 29, 2011, 12:57 PM

That was an alright chapter. I don't exactly find Naruto taking out bunch of stupid plant that impressive. Though the new ways he can now use the Rasengan were impressive. And Madara is the epitome of immortality. I think the only way he can be "kill" is by sealing him.

DementedKirby

June 29, 2011, 12:58 PM

This chapter was epic on so many levels. We already know that Naruto is gonna be the one to take out Madara. So more than likely it's gonna be Madara and his 6 Paths against Naruto and Killer Bee. By the way, how legendary has Naruto become in the mastery of his father's technique? That training with Killer Bee must've been something! He can manipulate the Kyuubi chakra in the cloak as extra hands to make multiple Rasengans at once, a mini Rasenshuriken with his finger and he can even reverse the rotation of the Rasengan to make a vacuum effect instead of a pushing effect. Wow!
Also, a few things have been cleared up:
Confirmed:
White Zetsu is not a ninja but clones from Hashirama's cells.
My personal speculation:
As to what Black Zetsu is... maybe the inspiration for creating the clones (in other words a true existing non-cloned-or-created-by-man ninja) or a special clone created from the cells. Who knows. This also explains why Zetsu has no headband in Akatsuki. He never really belonged to any village. He was created in a lab. This is how Madara always knew what was happening in Akatsuki. Maybe this is how he was able to do some things without Itachi being aware of it.
Confirmed:
Tobi is Madara and he merely transplanted Hashirama's cells into his body in order to extend his life. That explains his sometimes gooeyness.
My personal speculation:
More than likely his S/T jutsu is product of his EMS. In other words, Madara no longer needs to use the pseudonym of "Tobi" since the jig is up.

Also, the fact that Naruto is clearly putting his life in danger worries me. Will the Kyuubi not try to steal Naruto's chakra while he does the mass clones? Killer Bee already warned him about using it. Maybe while he's scouring the battlefield for Zetsu dopplegangers he talks to the Kyuubi.

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 12:59 PM

Not that I remember. To me, it seemed like he died right after fighting Madara. By the way to the story was told by Madara it seems like Tobirama took over as Hokage right after.

And in this fight with Madara, I'm guessing Hashirama took serious injuries to the point that, even he who has this incredible life force died of his wounds after.

IMO, this just makes the most sense to me.

No, there definitely is a scene with the 1st holding baby tsunade. Sorry can't reference a chapter, it's around the tsunade intro arc

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 01:00 PM

It seemed to only happen when the zetsus died and lost control of their chakra that they turned into trees. We didn't see spontanous growth for no reason, he kicked their ass and they turned into trees.

God, and I though Naruto was a hippie before, Hug no Jutsu, Book no Jutsu, Talk no Jutsu, and now the all new TREE NO JUTSU!

well i guess its just as bee said them zetsu's "...got bitch slapped turned into a tree" lol

warbandit66

June 29, 2011, 01:00 PM

At the end of the war I imagine the forest created by Naruto will serve as a sacred ground and a tribute to him when he passes.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 01:00 PM

No, there definitely is a scene with the 1st holding baby tsunade. Sorry can't reference a chapter, it's around the tsunade intro arc

Someone needs to find that page. jdw where are you!

DaHeroic1

June 29, 2011, 01:03 PM

No, there definitely is a scene with the 1st holding baby tsunade. Sorry can't reference a chapter, it's around the tsunade intro arc

Yeah i thought i remembered something like that so it's either a mistake by Kishi or Hashirama lasted a good 15 or so years after the madara fight magically lol.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 01:04 PM

Someone needs to find that page. jdw where are you!

Seen that page as well, but can't remember wether it was a fan-art of actual manga canon.. :headscratch

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 01:04 PM

Someone needs to find that page. jdw where are you!

My bad he's not holding her, he's patting her on the head. And she's a toddler. Search flickr if you can't find the chap

demons_halo

June 29, 2011, 01:07 PM

btw, tobi has 3 openings in his mask! 10$ that he's got a combination of sharingan/rinnegan in the top socket of the mask!

jdw

June 29, 2011, 01:07 PM

Someone needs to find that page. jdw where are you!

Lol, at work reading this place om a phone. Looking for manga on it is a pain in the ass :(

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 01:08 PM

It's in this episode at 13:37 (http://www.narutospot.net/naruto-english-dubbed/naruto-episode-90-english/), I don't remember that being in the manga though.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 01:09 PM

Lol, at work reading this place om a phone. Looking for manga on it is a pain in the ass :(

Google to the rescue!

http://fsb.zedge.net/content/9/8/7/5/1-3433438-9875-t.jpg

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 01:11 PM

one word for this chapter....epic!!!

where to start...the kick, the variations on the rasengan, the mini rasenshiruken, the summon (this gave me goose bumps...wow brough J-man back to mind), the leaving behind of the KB....and lastly going to war....I just had real goose bumps reading this chapter...this was awesome...

On using KB, I think Naruto knows something we don't..just like with the training, we all thought he was practicing the bijuu bomb but look at all those variations of the rasengan he came up with...I think he has figured out something with the QB that we don't know...

It was interesting to see that Mito had the same ability as Naruto....

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 01:11 PM

Yeah i thought i remembered something like that so it's either a mistake by Kishi or Hashirama lasted a good 15 or so years after the madara fight magically lol.

Either that, or Tsuande was born before the fight.

Sarturobi was 68 when he died Tsuande was 50 at this time, making her 18 years younger than him.

Sarturobi seemed to be around 18-21 when he was made Hokage by Tobirama. If Tobirama died a few months, to maybe a year after Hashirama, its a possibility that Hashirama patted Tsuande on the head when she like two right before his fight with Madara.

Even still, I want to see this picture because I don't remember that for the life of me.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 01:11 PM

At the end of the war I imagine the forest created by Naruto will serve as a sacred ground and a tribute to him when he passes.

lol I hope he does not die till he is like uzumaki mito age o3o, he has to defeat sasuke and be hokage naruto.

NeoMajinbuu 005

June 29, 2011, 01:13 PM

Either that, or Tsuande was born before the fight.

Sarturobi was 68 when he died. Tsuande is 50 years younger than him.

Sarturobi seemed to be around 18-21 when he was made Hokage by Tobirama. If Tobirama died a few months, to maybe a year after Hashirama, its a possibility that Hashirama patted Tsuande on the head when she like two right before his fight with Madara.

Even still, I want to see this picture because I don't remember that for the life of me.

Tsuande is not 50 years younger than Sarutobi mabye 20 years younger not 50

matzik1212

June 29, 2011, 01:13 PM

WOW this chapter was freaking awesome ..kishi did such a great job with all those new jutsu and were so amazing that i don't even care to ask when the hell did naruto have the time to invent them and master them so well :XD ....now i'm really starting to have goosebumps thinking naruto's on the move and to think he just started ^_^ , this once again makes me wonder just how awesome could he be if he were to have all kyuubi's chakra :D ...kyuubi is indeed a mass of hatred and all but it's power is beyond our imagination so :worship :amuse

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 01:16 PM

Tsuande is not 50 years younger than Sarutobi mabye 20 years younger not 50

Crap, meant to say 18 years. She was 50 when he was 68.

Raizen

June 29, 2011, 01:18 PM

Naruto was sooo badass!!
He is becoming more like his father everyday... :D
Mini FRS is going to cut a bitchhh

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

naruto is sooo badass!
He is becoming more like his father everyday... :D
Mini FRS is going to but a bitchh

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 01:26 PM

I dont think it would be easy for him to steal naruto chakra, and base on what I have seen from this chapter naruto turns the zetsu's into trees, I think the same would most likely happen to madara if they came in contact, I am not sure but it would make sense, not that I am trying to put logic in this >< oh no I wouldn't do that. and plus madara plan is to use naruto chakra to finish his moon eyes plan, not to regenerate the cells in his body to get a new one.

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

I opologize on the last page, I misread you post and thought you said that we have not seen madara take control of the kyubi 16 years ago, Sorry again. I didn't see that you said Use the Ems during that time.

Tobi has said that he wants a new body. This is a way to get it. The Zetsus may have grown into tree, but they were defeated and and the mix of Mokuton and naruto's chakra took affect. Remember when Danzou was weakened and lost control of Hashirama's cells? It turned into a tree. this is similar. However, this is not the same as Tobi somehow drawing in that chakra and using it to rebuild himself.

DarkPrinceRevan

June 29, 2011, 01:32 PM

Tobi has said that he wants a new body. This is a way to get it. The Zetsus may have grown into tree, but they were defeated and and the mix of Mokuton and naruto's chakra took affect. Remember when Danzou was weakened and lost control of Hashirama's cells? It turned into a tree. this is similar. However, this is not the same as Tobi somehow drawing in that chakra and using it to rebuild himself.

if naruto grows tobi a new body that will be a real nice job breaking it hero moment for naruto and id facepalm cause thats a light yagami level of zanatos gambit

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 01:32 PM

lordHokage

June 29, 2011, 01:33 PM

Are you blind? Where the fuck is Naruto in Sage Mode lol.

Naruto's "life energry" from Rikudou Mode is not Sage Mode, they are completely different.

And while it's entirely possible Madara ill turn into a Tree if he absorbs Naruto's chakra (which I highly doubt will happen), it is also entirely possible Madara's strength will be taken to knew heights.

Naruto's Life Energy different from Rikudou Mode and Sage Mode? Yes, but they are connected. In Sage Mode, Naruto couldn't sense Kakashi but in Rikudou Mode, Naruto sense the presence of evil. Tobi's strength will be taken to new heights when he absorbs all seven Bijuu or the new Six Path of Pain but not from Naruto's chakra. :p

Googlez_kun

June 29, 2011, 01:34 PM

Even still, I want to see this picture because I don't remember that for the life of me.
I just checked,it's anime-only.

Ryokahn

June 29, 2011, 01:34 PM

The mini-rasenshuriken was cracking me up as well. Some people seem surprised at his showing of new techniques, but really it seemed very Naruto-esque to me. It's just like he told Bee in their training "Just tell me when it's the right mix, all I need to do is get the feeling of it once."

Regarding the next chapter, I'm expecting 546 to be dealing with Bee or someone else freaking out over Naruto making shadow clones, and within a couple chapters, a Talk no Jutsu with Kyubi. I don't know if it's the route Kishi will take, but I actually don't see this being that hard of a sell to Kybui -- Naruto just needs to point out that Madara is the enemy. What is Kyubi's alternative? If he breaks free and does not fight with Naruto, he will simply be controlled by Madara via Sharingan and immediately sealed to bring back the Jyubi. That's hardly any better than being with Naruto, who has at least shown some desire to help him in the long run.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 01:36 PM

Tobi has said that he wants a new body. This is a way to get it. The Zetsus may have grown into tree, but they were defeated and and the mix of Mokuton and naruto's chakra took affect. Remember when Danzou was weakened and lost control of Hashirama's cells? It turned into a tree. this is similar. However, this is not the same as Tobi somehow drawing in that chakra and using it to rebuild himself.

Tobi said he wanted to become whole, why does he need a new body, when he is immortal and has the power that he has now, all he want is the the remaining jinchuriki to complete his plan, and plus I dont see how naruto power can give him a new Body, I dont even remember him saying that he needs a new body, If you find a link post it and show me please.

Uriel

June 29, 2011, 01:36 PM

It seems Tsunade's Yin Seal is an Uzumaki Clan sealing tech. I wonder why Tsunade doesn't use more Fuinjutsu - she is a direct Uzumaki descendant.
Nope, She's an indirect familiar.
Senju are distant relatives with Uzumaki, we can say that Uzumaki is a branch of Senju and therefore an old descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths as well as the Uchiha.

And seems that the branch works different, probably passed down by the female rather than the male. As the surname.

I still don't get it ... he tried NORMAL rasengan and it automaticly went into bijuu bomb ... how in the hell is he able to do normal rasengans and even FRS??? Kinda BS for me
Mix and blends of different chackras.

Damn, Naruto discussions are always so fast paced in terms of posts. >_>

Exodi

June 29, 2011, 01:38 PM

Holy badass, Naruto!
Three brand new techniques in the same chapter? If I didn't just read it, I'd say it was unheard of~

Awesome chapter. Although somehow I wish there was more to Zetsu than just being a clone, but whatever.

Atobe the king

June 29, 2011, 01:40 PM

Um...i normally don't post here but my bro told me about the chapter....am i to understand that naruto is biologically related to 4/5 hokages?

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 01:42 PM

Nope, She's an indirect familiar.
Senju are distant relatives with Uzumaki, we can say that Uzumaki is a branch of Senju and therefore an old descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths as well as the Uchiha.

And seems that the branch works different, probably passed down by the female rather than the male. As the surname.

Mito was Tsuande's grandmother though, so she has both Senju and Uzumaki blood in her. Her knowing more Fuuinjutsu is entirely possible, as for why she hasn't used it yet, just blame that on the plot not needing her too and Kishi not deciding the Uzumaki's were sealing experts until 250 chapters after Tsuande was introduced.

Googlez_kun

June 29, 2011, 01:42 PM

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 01:43 PM

Um...i normally don't post here but my bro told me about the chapter....am i to understand that naruto is biologically related to 4/5 hokages?

No, Naruto has no blood relation to Hashirama, Tobirama, and Tsuande. His mother was an Uzumaki, which is branch of the Senju clan that was created prior to Hashirama even being born.

So while he isn't directly related to the past Kages, if you traced his ancestry back far enough he is related to a Senju.

Atobe the king

June 29, 2011, 01:48 PM

Hmm i see....saddening. I liked the idea of coming from nothing and becoming great but it seems that it was in his blood to be hokage lol.

jorped

June 29, 2011, 01:48 PM

I think the most interesting one was the Chibi Rasenshuriken,mainly because Nartuo can use it in different and clever ways.They are small,even smaller than normal shuriken i think,so they can be used as a surprise attack.For example,Naruto could hide them in the shadow of shuriken and catch the enemy totally off-guard.The possibilities seem endless and can be accustomed to every given situation.Now i hope that Kishi won't forget those for plot-purpose.

That's true. This was what made me most impressed. Naruto finally showed us that he can indeed "manipulate" and do a lot of stuff with the same jutsu, something that until now we had only saw from Sasuke. Naruto being able to finally use his jutsu at his will is just awesome and as you, i hope Kishi won't forget this.
I am still expecting a lot from Naruto but this kinda kill some of my hunger :p

akatsuki27

June 29, 2011, 01:49 PM

Um...i normally don't post here but my bro told me about the chapter....am i to understand that naruto is biologically related to 4/5 hokages?

I dont think that's how it is...that's only true if Uzumaki Mito is related to Kushina and I dont think they were....I could be wrong though

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 01:50 PM

My understanding Naruto's control over the kyuubi's chackra is that Naruto is using the Kyuubi's chackra in a way Madara didn't expect. In a way no one ever expected.

He is actually filtering all Kyuubi's hatred and delivering a pure chackra of life force, capable of reacting to mokuton.

I believe this might lead to destabilize Madara's plant body and ultimately defeat him.

jdw

June 29, 2011, 01:54 PM

Hmm i see....saddening. I liked the idea of coming from nothing and becoming great but it seems that it was in his blood to be hokage lol.

As if every person of their lineage became hokage. You still have to earn it, and Naruto is definitely showing he is hokage material.

Atobe the king

June 29, 2011, 01:59 PM

As if every person of their lineage became hokage. You still have to earn it, and Naruto is definitely showing he is hokage material.

Not what i was getting at, but okay i like it when a character has no prior ties to greatness with Naruto seeing his past revealed it all feels like "it's in his blood"....gonna get off this forum before my head gets bitten off or something.

Uriel

June 29, 2011, 02:04 PM

Mito was Tsuande's grandmother though, so she has both Senju and Uzumaki blood in her. Her knowing more Fuuinjutsu is entirely possible, as for why she hasn't used it yet, just blame that on the plot not needing her too and Kishi not deciding the Uzumaki's were sealing experts until 250 chapters after Tsuande was introduced.
But Kushina was the one being thought (Past tense of teach, sorry I don't know it :P) of those seals being not only the next Jinchuriki but another Uzumaki as well.
She passed the technique to Naruto. It's not so simple to transfer the techniques by bloodline...If not there would be more Mokuton users.

I blame Tsunade's father though :P

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 02:08 PM

I think it was said to be his father's work-around to mimmick the tailed beast bomb, but I'm not sure he was trying to do a normal rasengan back then. Maybe they were different? With the tailed beast bomb rasengan he was doing he might have been trying to integrate another part to it, which was much harder to do. Maybe someone else though can elaborate. Could be wrong - maybe it is the same one after-all and he just mastered the technique off panel.

http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Naruto/519/6

No when naruto obtained kyuubi chakra bee told him to show him his jutsu it was even before he tried bijuu bomb and he tried NORMAL rasengan and it went STRAIGHT to bijuu bomb ... so how can he do a normal rasengan in RS mode? BS in my book

mattiaildivino

June 29, 2011, 02:14 PM

Ehi guys,isn't kishi's mistake the fact that Kisame has told tobi about naruto's power? how the hell did Kisame write tobi? He was being defeated by our guys:he had no time to write it.

lordHokage

June 29, 2011, 02:17 PM

You're fundamentally wrong. Yes Natural energy can't be absorbed and used by anyone other than sages. however, it's definitely not what made those wood statues grow and those Zetsus turn into trees. That was the chakra from bijuu Chakra Mode. There's a huge difference. Chakra is chakra. I'm sure Tobi won't change at all or enough in time to stop his reconstruction into a new body. i think Tobi wants to use that special chakra for his new body. There's no point in putting the jyuubi if you don't have a strong enough body to handle it.

What make you thing that Tobi body is strong enough to handle Naruto's chakra? What made those wood statues to grow branches and Zetsus to turn into trees was the Sage of the Six Path. Natural Energy cannot grow branches but it can sense the presence of someone or something too. When Preta Pain absorbed Naruto's chakra he slowly turned into stone and if Tobi wants to absorb Naruto's Kyuubi charka not Senjutsu chakra, he better have a chakra sensing jutsu in place if not, he will turn into stone too because Chakra is not Chakra. :p

NAM61

June 29, 2011, 02:20 PM

No when naruto obtained kyuubi chakra bee told him to show him his jutsu it was even before he tried bijuu bomb and he tried NORMAL rasengan and it went STRAIGHT to bijuu bomb ... so how can he do a normal rasengan in RS mode? BS in my book

bee said naruto was almost done with the bomb how do you know this is not the complete for or a variant of it. wait for an explanation before calling it bs.

zerocooldx

June 29, 2011, 02:22 PM

Ehi guys,isn't kishi's mistake the fact that Kisame has told tobi about naruto's power? how the hell did Kisame write tobi? He was being defeated by our guys:he had no time to write it.

Kisame had time to write while he was escaping and being chased by Gai. Or when he stopped to summon his shark he could have written it down then as well. Oh and Itachi was right when he told Sasuke that Madara was "immortal". Not surprising that Itachi knew so much.

benelori

June 29, 2011, 02:24 PM

Ehi guys,isn't kishi's mistake the fact that Kisame has told tobi about naruto's power? how the hell did Kisame write tobi? He was being defeated by our guys:he had no time to write it.

Actually by the time Gai managed to track him down, he already completed his report, and he even had time to cast a trap on the scroll...

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 02:28 PM

Not what i was getting at, but okay i like it when a character has no prior ties to greatness with Naruto seeing his past revealed it all feels like "it's in his blood"....gonna get off this forum before my head gets bitten off or something.

When Tsunade was out for the count for a while, a new Hokage was suposed to be picked, atleast temporarily. I belive it was revealed by Danzou at this point that all of the Hokage's thus far, has been of the same family line. Im not too much into the families line ages, but it's a hint, yes.

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 02:29 PM

bee said naruto was almost done with the bomb how do you know this is not the complete for or a variant of it. wait for an explanation before calling it bs.

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/519/p-13

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/519/p-14

he is clearly trying for NORMAL rasengan as he himself said as bee asked him to do it... so I can't really see how he managed it ...

akatsuki27

June 29, 2011, 02:30 PM

When Tsunade was out for the count for a while, a new Hokage was suposed to be picked, atleast temporarily. I belive it was revealed by Danzou at this point that all of the Hokage's thus far, has been of the same family line. Im not too much into the families line ages, but it's a hint, yes.

No, what Danzou said was they all followed Hashirama's ideals...so they were like following in that same tradition not that they were related...

roggie

June 29, 2011, 02:36 PM

bigman

June 29, 2011, 02:41 PM

although we dont percieve it in the manga, the rasenshuriken is very noisy. but i'm sure they will be a useful trick in his arsenal

yeah, if only naruto would learn shadow clone shuriken jutsu i'd be happy. I wanted him to learn it way before i even saw him do a FRS but now that he has a mini FRS it would be amazing if he would just learn that damn jutsu. can't be that different from his shadow clone jutsu I would think he'd be able to pick it up quickly.

mattiaildivino

June 29, 2011, 02:45 PM

I wonder why Bee isn't using samehada to defeat the zetsus quickly. And why has naruto summoned hiro and not bunta,or fukasaku and shima? Anyway Naruto is really too strong now!

Googlez_kun

June 29, 2011, 02:50 PM

although we dont percieve it in the manga, the rasenshuriken is very noisy. but i'm sure they will be a useful trick in his arsenal

That what i was thinking about.Is the small version as noisy or maybe even louder because of the density?I don't know,but well,in the fight against Kakuzu the noise did not seem to be a hindrence.Naruto was able to get behind him anyway.

I also wonder if we'll see him use it with all his ten fingers.Would be rather funny looking.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 02:50 PM

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/519/p-13

http://www.mangarush.com/manga/naruto/519/p-14

he is clearly trying for NORMAL rasengan as he himself said as bee asked him to do it... so I can't really see how he managed it ...

Naruto was using back and white then. just because he used it doesn't mean that when in Rs mode he cant use normal chakra, I think you were thinking too hard and thought that he could only use black and white and not his wind chakra, calm down its not such a big of deal.

PoopNScoop

June 29, 2011, 02:56 PM

Naruto
Wow, what a chapter for Naruto! He looks seriously very strong. There is no question that Naruto is presently more powerful than anyone else we have seen so far in the Manga, including: the 1st and 2nd Hokage, Sasuke, Madara, Uzumaki Mito, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Danzo, Negato, Itachi, and Yondaime Hokage. I do believe Sasuke's EMS will balance the fight with Naruto, but what counter is there to 9 RS-mode Naruto Kagebunshin clones? My concern is that Naruto will manage to defeat all of the White Zetsus, but will need to rest and will leave the war at the most important moment.

Zetsu
The White Zetsus are made using Shodaime Hokage's DNA and are capable of a lesser version of Wood Stye. I guess it wouldn't be an exaggeration to assume that Black Zetsu was made with Uchiha Madara or Uchiha Izuna's DNA. If that is the the case, then I wonder what special abilities he possesses.

KillerBee
I think Killerbee will be defeated in the next ten to fifteen chapters. I believe it will either be Madara and the 6 Paths of Pain that end him or it will be Itachi and Negato that do the trick. My bet is that Killerbee will ultimately be captured by Kabuto, Itachi, and Negato rather than Madara. Looks like Killerbee will be playing a support role for Naruto. I could just see Naruto getting into trouble and then Killerbee trading places with Naruto and sacrificing himself.

Sasuke
One thing that seems strange to me is how Sasuke fits into this whole puzzle. What is the point of Sasuke right now? Why is he being saved up? Madara seems pretty confident that he has all the tools he needs to capture Killerbee and Naruto and end this war at the end of the day. I think Sasuke will only come into play after Kabuto's betrayal. Something needs to tip the scales.

bigman

June 29, 2011, 03:01 PM

[
Sasuke
One thing that seems strange to me is how Sasuke fits into this whole puzzle. What is the point of Sasuke right now? Why is he being saved up? Madara seems pretty confident that he has all the tools he needs to capture Killerbee and Naruto and end this war at the end of the day. I think Sasuke will only come into play after Kabuto's betrayal. Something needs to tip the scales.

Yeah this Sasuke build up is getting ridiculous now. How many days has past since he got the transplant? Kakashi got his sharigan and was using it in battle 5 min afterwards.

llamapie

June 29, 2011, 03:04 PM

Holy crap Naruto is imba. Wtf mini Rasenshurikens, thats fricking bad ass. Best chapter in ages. Naruto is unstoppable.

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 03:05 PM

What make you thing that Tobi body is strong enough to handle Naruto's chakra? What made those wood statues to grow branches and Zetsus to turn into trees was the Sage of the Six Path. Natural Energy cannot grow branches but it can sense the presence of someone or something too. When Preta Pain absorbed Naruto's chakra he slowly turned into stone and if Tobi wants to absorb Naruto's Kyuubi charka not Senjutsu chakra, he better have a chakra sensing jutsu in place if not, he will turn into stone too because Chakra is not Chakra. :p

You're still wrong. Sage chakra allows Naruto to sense. Meaning he would already be in sage mode. Natural energy would have to be drawn in for it to affect Tobi. natural Energy is the only thing that could really harm you if absorbed. Natural Energy + Physical energy + Spiritual Energy = Sage Chakra. Anyways, if Tobi were to be absorbing energy from naruto as Naruto drew in natural energy, then he would be turned to stone. However, as I've pointed out. Naruto isn't in that form right now. Also, we're not sure exactly how Tobi would go about and fast he would be able to take and utilize the chakra. The point still stands that Naruto's Bijuu Chakra mode gives life and that could be used to make Tobi become whole again.

hakuthehedgehog

June 29, 2011, 03:08 PM

Wow, just wow, Naruto is breaking unbelievable o_O and we've got a winner in our tournament, since Sasuke was already eliminated by Jiraya.

I mean, damn, three new jutsus in one chapter: HELL YES.

Raizen

June 29, 2011, 03:19 PM

I feel it is those who TRIED to downplay (and failed) Minato that are downplaying naruto now.
What naruto did this chapter was great. His master over rasengan and KB is something to be admired

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 03:22 PM

Naruto is doing what his dad did...fixing the war...The yellow flash had kunais, Naruto has bijuu chakra with the same effect. This is awesome... I didn't expect this from Kishi.. nice one!

matzik1212

June 29, 2011, 03:26 PM

Naruto

Sasuke
One thing that seems strange to me is how Sasuke fits into this whole puzzle. What is the point of Sasuke right now? Why is he being saved up? Madara seems pretty confident that he has all the tools he needs to capture Killerbee and Naruto and end this war at the end of the day. I think Sasuke will only come into play after Kabuto's betrayal. Something needs to tip the scales.

i think sasuke will show up much sooner and he will start taking his revenge against konoha first, well against the shinobi alliance and then he will eventually be stopped by naruto :D .....i'm curious to see what new justu can he do 'cause seeing naruto using some awesome new ones (also based on the same old rasengan but well it doesn't matter:p) i'm thinking he also has new ones ....i have a feeling the following chapters will be awesome i'm starting to get sad that this is coming to an end :(

KiSwordsman

June 29, 2011, 03:34 PM

Am i the only one who wants to see a nonetails flashback maybe he was actually a nice tailed beast and then people hurt it (killing its wife and children maybe?)

No offense, but that just sounds like really sappy fanfiction. Also, because we know how the tailed beasts came into existence, and from what, I doubt that would fit in a back story about the fox.

Something I was wondering about though, before this chapter i was curious as to wether Naruto would be able to use more then two chakra arms. this chapter confirmed it.

CBlitz

June 29, 2011, 03:35 PM

finally, we haven't seen Naruto be half-way competent ever since the Pain arc years ago. I guess Naruto formed a little understand with the Kyuubi since he's able to use Shadow Clones in his new form. Speaking of that, I still don't think it renders Sage Mode useless since Naruto can use that when he's running low on chakra to keep the momentum up. So if he's slightly weakened after this, he still has SM to fall back on which is cool since its not really a throw away power-up. Managing to get Rasenshuriken down to that size shows some insane chakra control, I hope he pulls some more neat tricks out of his sleeve concerning that. The possibilities are really limitless at this point

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 03:36 PM

I feel it is those who TRIED to downplay (and failed) Minato that are downplaying naruto now.
What naruto did this chapter was great. His master over rasengan and KB is something to be admired

Don't think anyone is downplaying Naruto, what he did is awesome. Only thing people seem to be saying is that what Naruto is doing seems to be rather rushed, seeing as how he's breaking all the rules Killerbee put out for him, while also displaying and using techniques in ways he hasn't trained for and simply wasn't able to do in RK Mode before.

lexx

June 29, 2011, 03:37 PM

So...Naruto's overuse of 9tails mode has already allowed the 9tails within him to rejuvenate itself. Not only that, but he's done a little sparring with the powered-up Raikage, acted as a human nightlight, spammed a good dozen or so rasengans, spammed an equally great number of chakra arms, used a gigantic vortex-style rasengan, chucked a tiny mini rasenshuriken, and summoned one of the great big toads.

And now he's done a half-dozen or more shadow clones, still in 9tails mode. Is it just me or is he trying to die really, really fast? 8Tails told Naruto that he should use tailed beast mode sparingly, and never use shadow clones, else the 9tails would suck the last dregs of chakra from him and kill him.

Am I missing something here?

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 03:39 PM

So lots of chakra to spam a jutsu = Insane Mastery now? What? Everything Naruto does with his SC's is a direct result of his possessing a lot of chakra. He throws as many SC's out there as he needs to in order to get the job because he can due to his chakra. His SC jutsu mastery is no different then anyone elses. Unless of course you define mastery as spamming a jutsu. In which case Naruto is the Yoda of SC's.

We've seen plenty of other shinobi with high chakra capacity who didn't use the shadow clone technique like Naruto does. So, call it whatever you like, Naruto is in a league of his own with regards to mastery of the Shadow Clone Technique.

Yes, someone being able to spam the hell out of a jutsu to impressive result is mastery. Just like Madara spams the hell out of his intangibility and dimensional transfer jutsu.

"His SC jutsu mastery is no different then anyone elses."

Bull. :) Go ahead and show me one other shinobi in this manga that uses the shadow clone jutsu at the same incredible level that Naruto does. Not even Itachi qualifies. The fact that Naruto can make so many without draining himself and is able to perform such unbelievable things with shadow clones in combat, is proof that he's the best shinobi in the world when it comes to using that technique. I mean, any attempt to argue otherwise is a joke really.

No other shinobi has accomplished the kinds of feats with shadow clones that Naruto has, none. Arguing this is like trying to argue that Itachi has proven more skilled with the black flames of Amaterasu than Sasuke. Or that Sasuke has showcased more skill with Genjutsu than Itachi.

llamapie

June 29, 2011, 03:40 PM

EMS

June 29, 2011, 03:42 PM

Good chapter and naruto using mini-rasengan shiruken and vacuum rasengan and others was really nice, it made me see how good control naruto has over kyuubi power and how strong had become since pa toad trained him and it was just a matter of time that we knew 100% that zetsu was created by madara from senju hashirama cells..
It looks that Naruto came up with a way to use kage bushin while using kyuubi power or it could be that naruto already had agreemented with the kyuubi and we haven't see it in the manga yet but it was pretty good while Madara might be the true meaning of immortal.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 03:46 PM

If Naruto runs out of fox chackra, he can still use Sage Mode, which btw is strong enough to defeat Pain.

I think he is fine.

THM Nindo

June 29, 2011, 03:48 PM

I guess this chapter also clarified what Naruto was intending to do when Raikage was charging at him.
We were wondering if he really was about to create a clone.

It seems is able to do it in this mode too, so that's probably what he was going to do.

Funny though, as Raikage seemed to be on par with Naruto last chapter and now he seems to be so far away from him in term of power.
I guess we were just impressed, that's all...

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 03:49 PM

We've seen plenty of other shinobi with high chakra capacity who didn't use the shadow clone technique like Naruto does. So, call it whatever you like, Naruto is in a league of his own with regards to mastery of the Shadow Clone Technique.

Yes, someone being able to spam the hell out of a jutsu to impressive result is mastery. Just like Madara spams the hell out of his intangibility and dimensional transfer jutsu.

"His SC jutsu mastery is no different then anyone elses."

Bull. :) Go ahead and show me one other shinobi in this manga that uses the shadow clone jutsu at the same incredible level that Naruto does. Not even Itachi qualifies. The fact that Naruto can make so many without draining himself and is able to perform such unbelievable things with shadow clones in combat, is proof that he's the best shinobi in the world when it comes to using that technique. I mean, any attempt to argue otherwise is a joke really.

Naruto has shown on several occasions, that his strategic use of Shadow Clones is great. But that doesn't make him a master of said technique.

If you wish to praise Naruto, praise his ability to formulate plans with the armies of clones he makes, not with his actual mastery of the technique. Again, he didn't even know he was recieving knowledge from the clones until Kakashi told him.

Can Naruto's clones explode like Itachi's? No. Can they be made of elements like Kakashi's? No.

Naruto's ability to have so much chakra makes him able to spam clones. There is no ninja in the manga with a greater natural chakra pool than Naruto. Combine the fact that Naruto also has the God damn Kyuubi in him and he can literally never tire. So, just because he was gifted with all this chakra doesn't make him a master of the Kage Bushin technique.

Is he good at it? Sure he is. But if you want to call him a "master" of anything, call him a master of Sage Mode, because he is, or call him a master of implementing Kage Bushin in battle, because he's close to becoming a master in that as well.

But again, that doesn't mean his control of the technique makes him a master. When his clones become more durable, can explode, can telepathically communicate with one another, etc etc, then you can call him a master of the Kage Bushin jutsu.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 03:50 PM

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 03:50 PM

If Naruto runs out of fox chackra, he can still use Sage Mode, which btw is strong enough to defeat Pain.

I think he is fine.

Sage Mode didn't defeat Pain, Kage Bushins and the Kyuubi did.

And no, he won't run out of fox chakra, the fox with devour all of his chakra and kill him. And Sage Mode requires a lot of chakra to use, if Naruto is low on his own chakra he won't even be able to get into Sage Mode because he'd be too tired so to speak.

Remy

June 29, 2011, 03:55 PM

Nice chapter, lot of actions, no boring flashbacks of emotional past souvenir. I kinda found it disapointing that he splitted the fox chakra into 20 on the last pages. He was already using it prematurely. Kinda reckless. He's goint to do his show with the Zetsu and face Madara all worn up.

I was hoping he would be at full force when facing him, seem he'll be out of chakra... Or maybe Samehada will now swap to like Naruto better and provide chakra, who knows... Kagebushin was still not the wiser choice I belive.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 03:55 PM

Sage Mode didn't defeat Pain, Kage Bushins and the Kyuubi did.

And no, he won't run out of fox chakra, the fox with devour all of his chakra and kill him. And Sage Mode requires a lot of chakra to use, if Naruto is low on his own chakra he won't even be able to get into Sage Mode because he'd be too tired so to speak.

Well, SM defeated most of the Pains, and Naruto did use SM to attack Deva Pain too.

Murdock

June 29, 2011, 03:57 PM

Naruto was using back and white then. just because he used it doesn't mean that when in Rs mode he cant use normal chakra, I think you were thinking too hard and thought that he could only use black and white and not his wind chakra, calm down its not such a big of deal.

he clearly said he attemped rasengan not bijudama since he didn't know anything about black and white after that observation it was asssumed that yondaime made rasengan out of bijudama ... so he was just using chakra to make normal rasengan and it went straight into bijudama

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 03:57 PM

Well, SM defeated most of the Pains, and Naruto did use SM to attack Deva Pain too.

Sage Mode defeated most of the Pains while the strongest of them wasn't even fighting. And again, Sage Mode didn't defeat Deva, Naruto and his clones did after tiring him out with the Kyuubi.

IMO, when Nagato uses Pain to it's full power, only Naruto as he is now, Minato, Madara, Kabuto, and probably EMS Sasuke could defeat him.

kkck

June 29, 2011, 03:58 PM

1001 uses for rasengan with naruto:

1.- Smoothies: Just put a bunch of fruit in a bowl and strike it with rasengan

2.- stilish haircut: Messy hair? Strike it with rasengan and turn it into a entirely new stile. (results may vary)

3.- Motorboat: Your boat ran out of gas? Just put half your rasengan under the watersurface and you got an instant pollution free mode of transportation. Not enough speed? A second rasengan does the trick. Keep adding rasengans until desired speed is achieved.

4.- Clean your house? Rasengan immediately gets rid of all the dust and stains. If the mess is bad enough just use mini fuuton rasenshuriken and the problemb will vanish (don't leave it within the range of children).

5.- Kid got a booboo? Get rid of it with fuuton rasenshuriken!

6.- Tired of the hordes of dirty diapers left by babies? Nothing which would not be destroyed at the molecular level by FRS!

7.- Your garbage disposal unit is broken or just a pain? Rasenkyugan won't give it a chance. Also works to dispose of pests like rats, roaches and angry plant man who want to take over the world.

8.- Got problems with bullies and the principal won't do anything? rasenrangan can take care of all of them.

9.- Are the corpses of bullies just a pain in the ass and the cops won't stop asking questions? mini FRS can take care of it all!

10.- Is your blentec total blender just not doing the trick with your iphone, golf balls, magnets and crowbars? rasengan will blend them as if they were pudding! (check youtube for blendtec if you don't get it)

11.- Is an immortal lunatic with crazy eyes trying to take over the world? In that case you probably read too much manga but rasengan can take care of that!

12.- Are your shoulders just too stiff? Rasengan can give you the relaxing masage you always thought you'd have to go to thailand to get for the right price! (side effects can include shoulder pain, internal bleeding, broken bones, burned skin and constipation. If you experience any of this consult your physician immediately)

13.- Are weeds just ruining your garden! mini FRS is the ideal tool to make it all disappear! If you just got bored with your current garden then you can start from scratch by applying a layer of regular FRS!

14.- Are the cold hearted baby murderers in your manga for some reason not killing characters devoid of personality, charm or relevance to the manga? FRS can make your manga make sense again by disposing of those characters!

15.- Did your dog eat your homework and your unreasonable teacher won't believe you? FRS is the ultimate persuacion tool!

16.- Is your current date just THAT boring? Spice things up (or her) with rasengan!

17.- Is your neighboor's dog just using your lawn as its bathroom? With mini FRS you can get rid of the crap AND the dog in just one go!

18.- Are the villagers just hating you for reasons you can't understand? FRS can make you more lovable than a 3 legged puppy with a bowtie before you even realize it!

19.- is the girl you like dating a douchbag? FRS was made to dispose of douche!

20.- Stuck in a traffic jam? FRS can get rid of all the annoying people in front of you in a sec!

Rasengan just makes your life easier!

__________________________________________

Ok, chapter was not THAT terrible although I can't say it made sense for naruto to suddently be capable of crapping rasengans like that. A minute ago he could not make a proper rasengan and now he is making them with one finger? kinda weird IMO.

The relationship between zetsu and hashirama was more than obvious for a while now although it is nice to have confirmation. Madara's body is most likely a variation of zetsu too, even the portions of his face we have seen look like zetsu. I would bet the black half of zetsu holds the power of the uchiha and madara used the two of them to make himself a rikudo body so to speak. I wonder how madara took control of the former jinchuiriki and attached rinnengans to them without the eyes they had before regenerating. Naruto has a real problem considering regular pain was just that dificult to beat. These new six paths of pain have the chakra of their biju and immortal bodies... Regular old pain was able to take out thousands of shinobi on his own and shinra tensei disposed of konoha as a whole. Saying those 7 guys can take out the remainder of the shinobi alliance is not exageration. If anything, a gross understatement. Naruto would need at least the actual cooperation of the kyubi to win IMO and the other half of its chakra which minato did not seal in him.

EMS

June 29, 2011, 04:00 PM

why some people complained about naruto using kage bushin and his high level of chakra?...each shinobi have something that made them special like a Kekkei Genkai,forbidden jutsu,doujutsu or other techniques that is what made each shinobi strong and if you take away does abilities it will make them like everyone else..
Naruto is strong in his own way like hashirama was strong with his mokuton or the uchiha with the sharingan.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 04:00 PM

yeah, if only naruto would learn shadow clone shuriken jutsu i'd be happy. I wanted him to learn it way before i even saw him do a FRS but now that he has a mini FRS it would be amazing if he would just learn that damn jutsu. can't be that different from his shadow clone jutsu I would think he'd be able to pick it up quickly.

Naruto does know the shadow clone shuriken jutsu, I believed he used it during the pain arc

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 04:00 PM

If Naruto runs out of fox chackra, he can still use Sage Mode, which btw is strong enough to defeat Pain.

I think he is fine.

Is it strong enough to defeat pain? Or is it actually just strong enough to defeat a weakened pain, and only if he goes 8tails in the middle of the fight? Hmmm

Remy

June 29, 2011, 04:02 PM

well, technically if you recall chapter 3 I think. yeah thats old. He learn mass shadow clone on a forbidden scroll stolen from the hoklage office.

Wich would explain why you never saw other shinobi with huge chakra pool use this technique as good as him.

CBlitz

June 29, 2011, 04:03 PM

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 04:05 PM

Naruto has shown on several occasions, that his strategic use of Shadow Clones is great. But that doesn't make him a master of said technique.

If you wish to praise Naruto, praise his ability to formulate plans with the armies of clones he makes, not with his actual mastery of the technique. Again, he didn't even know he was recieving knowledge from the clones until Kakashi told him.

Can Naruto's clones explode like Itachi's? No. Can they be made of elements like Kakashi's? No.

Naruto's ability to have so much chakra makes him able to spam clones. There is no ninja in the manga with a greater natural chakra pool than Naruto. Combine the fact that Naruto also has the God damn Kyuubi in him and he can literally never tire. So, just because he was gifted with all this chakra doesn't make him a master of the Kage Bushin technique.

Is he good at it? Sure he is. But if you want to call him a "master" of anything, call him a master of Sage Mode, because he is, or call him a master of implementing Kage Bushin in battle, because he's close to becoming a master in that as well.

But again, that doesn't mean his control of the technique makes him a master. When his clones become more durable, can explode, can telepathically communicate with one another, etc etc, then you can call him a master of the Kage Bushin jutsu.

He didn't know he got experience from the clones until Kakashi told him, but his use of the technique in combat is second to none. You can't praise his ability to use the shadow clone technique in combat and to formulate plans with, and not somehow praise his ability with the shadow clone technique.

I've never heard of something so ridiculous. Naruto doesn't need his shadow clones to be able to explode. He doesn't need to be able to create a lightning element shadow clone.

Based on those two things, are you implying that Itachi and Kakashi have shown themselves as more impressive than Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique? One or two tricks with shadow clones is not enough to challenge the record of accomplishment and feats that Naruto has with the shadow clone technique.

He can be called a master of implementing shadow clones in combat, but he can't be called a master of the technique? Sorry, if that was the criteria alone then Kakashi, in some weird way, can be classified as an equal to Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique. Are there people really insane enough to believe such a thing? Nobody in the shinobi world uses the shadow clone technique at the level that Naruto can, nobody. That makes him a master. Yes, Naruto is a master of Sage Mode, but you'd be more willing to label him as a master of Sage Mode before you'd label him a master of the shadow clone technique? Come on now, even that's a stretch, and I think even you realize that

And even if you aren't willing to classify Naruto as a master of the Shadow Clone Technique, you'd be very hard pressed to claim that someone else showcases greater mastery over the use of technique than Naruto himself does.

Jiraiya? No.
Kakashi? No.
Itachi? No.

All those shinobi have over Naruto, is that they have some unique tricks that they combine with their use of the shadow clone technique. Naruto's creativity with the shadow clone technique more than makes up for that. Even the databook praises Naruto's mastery of the shadow clone killing method. Naruto, using the shadow clone technique, created a jutsu equaling in terms of purpose a jutsu out of the Legendary Third Hokage's arsenal.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken_Shadow_Clone_Technique

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 04:05 PM

Is it strong enough to defeat pain? Or is it actually just strong enough to defeat a weakened pain, and only if he goes 8tails in the middle of the fight? Hmmm

It was Nagato's fault for not being able to come up with a good strategy to deal with Konoha and Naruto. He wasted his power before fighting the most powerful of the bijuu hosts.

Power isn't everything for a Ninja.

It doesn't matter how or when or why, he was ultimately defeated and outsmarted by Naruto.

Remy

June 29, 2011, 04:09 PM

why some people complained about naruto using kage bushin and his high level of chakra?....

Because this is stupid as hell. If your going to run a marathon and start a full speed people are gonna say thisis stupid. Make sense.

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 04:09 PM

It was Nagato's fault for not being able to come up with a good strategy to deal with Konoha and Naruto. He wasted his power before fighting the most powerful of the bijuu hosts.

Power isn't everything for a Ninja.

It doesn't matter how or when or why, he was ultimately defeated and outsmarted by Naruto.

Ah, okay, in that case put an asterisk after your extremely subjective comment. "...which by the way was enough to defeat pain"*

*in highly particular conditions

bigman

June 29, 2011, 04:11 PM

Naruto does know the shadow clone shuriken jutsu, I believed he used it during the pain arc

not that one, I mean the one that the third hokage used when Oro blocked it with Edo tensei coffins. Maybe i'm mixing up the names of the jutsus.

Remy

June 29, 2011, 04:11 PM

Ruhina

June 29, 2011, 04:15 PM

It was Nagato's fault for not being able to come up with a good strategy to deal with Konoha and Naruto. He wasted his power before fighting the most powerful of the bijuu hosts.

Power isn't everything for a Ninja.

It doesn't matter how or when or why, he was ultimately defeated and outsmarted by Naruto.

And now he's up against an immortal with 6 ET pains imbued with the one speciality he cannot comprehend, genjutsu (sharingan) as well as presumably all their natural abilities.

If you honestly think sage mode alone is enough to deal with all that, I believe you're (ironically) making the same mistake as Pain did when he invaded Konoha...

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:16 PM

He didn't know he got experience from the clones until Kakashi told him, but his use of the technique in combat is second to none. You can't praise his ability to use the shadow clone technique in combat and to formulate plans with, and not somehow praise his ability with the shadow clone technique.

I've never heard of something so ridiculous. Naruto doesn't need his shadow clones to be able to explode. He doesn't need to be able to create a lightning element shadow clone.

Based on those two things, are you implying that Itachi and Kakashi have shown themselves as more impressive than Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique? One or two tricks with shadow clones is not enough to challenge the record of accomplishment and feats that Naruto has with the shadow clone technique.

He can be called a master of implementing shadow clones in combat, but he can't be called a master of the technique? Sorry, if that was the criteria alone then Kakashi, in some weird way, can be classified as an equal to Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique. Are there people really insane enough to believe such a thing? Nobody in the shinobi world uses the shadow clone technique at the level that Naruto can, nobody. That makes him a master. Yes, Naruto is a master of Sage Mode, but you'd be more willing to label him as a master of Sage Mode before you'd label him a master of the shadow clone technique? Come on now, even that's a stretch, and I think even you realize that

And even if you aren't willing to classify Naruto as a master of the Shadow Clone Technique, you'd be very hard pressed to claim that someone else showcases greater mastery over the use of technique than Naruto himself does.

Jiraiya? No.
Kakashi? No.
Itachi? No.

All those shinobi have over Naruto, is that they have some unique tricks that they combine with their use of the shadow clone technique. Naruto's creativity with the shadow clone technique more than makes up for that. Even the databook praises Naruto's mastery of the shadow clone killing method. Naruto, using the shadow clone technique, created a jutsu equaling in terms of purpose a jutsu out of the Legendary Third Hokage's arsenal.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken_Shadow_Clone_Technique

I believe Naruto is the master of KBs..period... Besides what will Naruto do? Create Wind-based SCs? What will that do lol? A clone made of wind...it can't punch or do anything...

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:17 PM

You guys are saying that Naruto spams clones....but when was the last time he actually did that? Ever since Kakuzu he's been using his Shadow Clones very efficiently and competently. He hasn't "spammed" them in ages, he knows how to tactically use them. And more importantly, what's the point of using exploding SCs or elemental ones? Its a waste of chakra, especially since one of Naruto's Shadow Clones are now worth more tactically than entire squads of Shinobi. Honestly Naruto mastered Shadow Clones when he got Sage Mode, its the epitome and best example of his mastery. Not only did he curbstomp Pain with it but he did it with 3 other clones, a far cry from the "spamming" everyone is talking about now.

Please do me a favor and re-read the entire Pain fight. When he was no longer in Sage Mode, he spammed Kage Bushins. Again, re-read please.

Googlez_kun

June 29, 2011, 04:18 PM

Well,i doubt Madara and Naruto will clash this early.The day is still long and i'm sure Madara won't just travel through the country like this without being noticed.He'll most likely get a warm-up match to showcase his powers and to show the readers (and maybe Naruto as well) just how badass he is.I can't wait for the next chapters.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 04:19 PM

Right, and Naruto does the same mistake in this chapter. Using all he's got before the big opponents.

Well, I don't think Naruto has much of a choice here. He needs to save his friends after all.

CBlitz

June 29, 2011, 04:21 PM

Please do me a favor and re-read the entire Pain fight. When he was no longer in Sage Mode, he spammed Kage Bushins. Again, re-read please.

Don't be condescending or patronizing, it doesn't do you or your argument any favors. And again unless you weren't paying attention, the mass Shadow Clones there had a purpose. To withstand the force of Shinra Tensei. You'd do well to re-read it yourself

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 04:22 PM

And now he's up against an immortal with 6 ET pains imbued with the one speciality he cannot comprehend, genjutsu (sharingan) as well as presumably all their natural abilities.

If you honestly think sage mode alone is enough to deal with all that, I believe you're (ironically) making the same mistake as Pain did when he invaded Konoha...

Maybe you are right, but I still think that SM alone can give a lot of trouble to Madara.

Of course, this is just my interpretation of things.

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 04:22 PM

hahahha
point taken

Good sport.

The action was intense this chapter, I don't mind that Kishi didn't show narutos development because his intentions seems to have been to hit us with all the news techniques at once. I will mind if naruto doesn't pass out from doing kb next chapter though, Kishi can't skirt around that

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:24 PM

Please do me a favor and re-read the entire Pain fight. When he was no longer in Sage Mode, he spammed Kage Bushins. Again, re-read please.

So what if he spams KB? Who cares?..Itachi spammed Tsukiyomi, Sasuke spams amaterasu/Susanoo/chidori, Madara spams S/T, Shikamaru spams shadow bind etc....we can go on the whole night...KB is Naruto's base jutsu from which he builds everything else...it is he default starting position really... nothing wrong with that.....

you could say KB is just a tool for him like a kunai....he has discovered a multitude of ways of using it just like Asuma could put wind chakra into his kunai or Minato could put special tags on his...KB is a tool which Naruto uses effectively depending on the situation..

xaither

June 29, 2011, 04:25 PM

Right, and Naruto does the same mistake in this chapter. Using all he's got before the big opponents.

you dont know for the fact that naruto use all that he's got, I highly doubt that, stop making assumption before you have evidence.

GOOMOONRYONG

June 29, 2011, 04:26 PM

So people have a problem with Naruto spamming clones but won't say Sasuke spams his MS? Come on now everybody it was the first jounin technique Naruto learned and he has made it his own. Why don't we just say that Itachi spammed genjutsu? Any time people want to shit on the main character they do so but look at all the other elite ninja out there, you are ALWAYS going to use the technique you are most comfortable with and can use most effectively. Guess this means the 4th spammed his body flicker technique :/

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:27 PM

He didn't know he got experience from the clones until Kakashi told him, but his use of the technique in combat is second to none. You can't praise his ability to use the shadow clone technique in combat and to formulate plans with, and not somehow praise his ability with the shadow clone technique.

I've never heard of something so ridiculous. Naruto doesn't need his shadow clones to be able to explode. He doesn't need to be able to create a lightning element shadow clone.

Based on those two things, are you implying that Itachi and Kakashi have shown themselves as more impressive than Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique? One or two tricks with shadow clones is not enough to challenge the record of accomplishment and feats that Naruto has with the shadow clone technique.

He can be called a master of implementing shadow clones in combat, but he can't be called a master of the technique? Sorry, if that was the criteria alone then Kakashi, in some weird way, can be classified as an equal to Naruto in the use of the shadow clone technique. Are there people really insane enough to believe such a thing? Nobody in the shinobi world uses the shadow clone technique at the level that Naruto can, nobody. That makes him a master. Yes, Naruto is a master of Sage Mode, but you'd be more willing to label him as a master of Sage Mode before you'd label him a master of the shadow clone technique? Come on now, even that's a stretch, and I think even you realize that

And even if you aren't willing to classify Naruto as a master of the Shadow Clone Technique, you'd be very hard pressed to claim that someone else showcases greater mastery over the use of technique than Naruto himself does.

Jiraiya? No.
Kakashi? No.
Itachi? No.

All those shinobi have over Naruto, is that they have some unique tricks that they combine with their use of the shadow clone technique. Naruto's creativity with the shadow clone technique more than makes up for that. Even the databook praises Naruto's mastery of the shadow clone killing method. Naruto, using the shadow clone technique, created a jutsu equaling in terms of purpose a jutsu out of the Legendary Third Hokage's arsenal.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Shuriken_Shadow_Clone_Technique

Is there anything different about Naruto's clones now than there was back when he first created a thousand of them back in chapter 3? No, nothing is different.

So, unless you believe Naruto was a master then, then there is no way he is a master now of technique.

If you want to praise something, praise how Naruto's intelligence has grown where he can formulate effective stategies with his clones to outmanuver and overwhelm his opponents. That however has nothing to do with his actual mastery of the technique.

As for Kakashi and Itachi, they're clones can do serious damage once they die, Naruto's can not. That implies that they have control over the technique that he does not.

Naruto can create a 1000 clones where they cannot because he possess a massive chakra supply. That is a gift he was given at birth, and he did nothing to train to go from creating 1 clone to 10 to 1000.

As for his technique that rivals the Thirds, it doesn't at all. He uses much more chakra to basically do the same thing, and that technique can only be used when in a forest so clones can get into trees and all around an opponent. Having a bunch of clones throw shuriken isn't all that impressive if you ask me.

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:28 PM

Good sport.

The action was intense this chapter, I don't mind that Kishi didn't show narutos development because his intentions seems to have been to hit us with all the news techniques at once. I will mind if naruto doesn't pass out from doing kb next chapter though, Kishi can't skirt around that

He can...just like he didn't show us Naruto training all those techs...he may not have shown us any agreement between Naruto and the QB...though I don't think they are any agreements. I think simply Naruto has figured out something about the QB chakra. Or the clone he has left behind will collect sage chakra to balance some of his chakra loss (that is if it can)

Robaciek

June 29, 2011, 04:28 PM

So what we get is more rasengan spam, even more hype on Madara and kage-bunshin bullshit. I mean seriously what is Kishi doing here? I'm afraid what will Sasuke return with...

On the side note:how come Naruto was able to throw that mini rasen-shuriken? I thought he needs natural chakra to do that.

EMS

June 29, 2011, 04:29 PM

Because this is stupid as hell. If your going to run a marathon and start a full speed people are gonna say thisis stupid. Make sense.

Naruto know how strong he has became and he feel that he need to take care of the zetsus as soon as posible before the allies shinobies number start going down that is why he is in a rushed to neutralize the enemy, he is beeing smart to protect the shinobi allies and to me that isn't stupid at all.

Ruhina

June 29, 2011, 04:29 PM

Maybe you are right, but I still think that just SM alone can give a lot of trouble to Madara.

That indeed. The problems are just that despite all his destructive power and sensor abilities, SM Naruto has nothing to counter the effects of ET and Madara's space-time jutsu, not even with Raikage's speed could he land a blow on Madara. Minato specifically predicted that the Kyuubi's chakra would be required for Madara's downfall, as even he himself could not stop Madara entirely. So an SM Naruto would likely deal massive blows to the new Pains, but not able to deal conclusive damage to take them out.

I would say that the SM Naruto is clearly a jounin on A-S level, but it was the Kyuubi's outbreak that turned the battle around in Konoha. Up until that point, he got completely outmatched by Deva pain and were already captured before the turnaround.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:30 PM

So what if he spams KB? Who cares?..Itachi spammed Tsukiyomi, Sasuke spams amaterasu/Susanoo/chidori, Madara spams S/T, Shikamaru spams shadow bind etc....we can go on the whole night...KB is Naruto's base jutsu from which he builds everything else...it is he default starting position really... nothing wrong with that.....

you could say KB is just a tool for him like a kunai....he has discovered a multitude of ways of using it just like Asuma could put wind chakra into his kunai or Minato could put special tags on his...KB is a tool which Naruto uses effectively depending on the situation..

I don't deny that, but again, his skill with the actual technique does not show he is a master of it. He is simply great at using the clones once he makes them, but there is nothing special about the clones themselves that make him a master.

Picture this unrealistic situation.

A marksman is a master shot, but he is not a master of creating a gun.

A gunsmith is a master at making a gun, but not a master shot.

Naruto is the marksman, not the gunsmith more or less. He makes A LOT of normal clones, then uses them expertly.

If he could say, make a thousand clones that all go boom like Itachi's did, then we might be going somewhere as the clones are more developed than just a regular Kage Bushin.

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:30 PM

Is there anything different about Naruto's clones now than there was back when he first created a thousand of them back in chapter 3? No, nothing is different.

So, unless you believe Naruto was a master then, then there is no way he is a master now of technique.

If you want to praise something, praise how Naruto's intelligence has grown where he can formulate effective stategies with his clones to outmanuver and overwhelm his opponents. That however has nothing to do with his actual mastery of the technique.

As for Kakashi and Itachi, they're clones can do serious damage once they die, Naruto's can not. That implies that they have control over the technique that he does not.

Naruto can create a 1000 clones where they cannot because he possess a massive chakra supply. That is a gift he was given at birth, and he did nothing to train to go from creating 1 clone to 10 to 1000.

As for his technique that rivals the Thirds, it doesn't at all. He uses much more chakra to basically do the same thing, and that technique can only be used when in a forest so clones can get into trees and all around an opponent. Having a bunch of clones throw shuriken isn't all that impressive if you ask me.

That is not true..against Pain he not only created them but I believe they took on the shape of rocks did they?

ptolemy

June 29, 2011, 04:31 PM

He can...just like he didn't show us Naruto training all those techs...he may not have shown us any agreement between Naruto and the QB...though I don't think they are any agreements. I think simply Naruto has figured out something about the QB chakra. Or the clone he has left behind will collect sage chakra to balance some of his chakra loss (that is if it can)

Then what was the point of Kishi imposing that limit on naruto in the first place

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:32 PM

Don't be condescending or patronizing, it doesn't do you or your argument any favors. And again unless you weren't paying attention, the mass Shadow Clones there had a purpose. To withstand the force of Shinra Tensei. You'd do well to re-read it yourself

Did you miss the moment when he used all of them to close the gap on Deva yet they all get blown away? Or when he had them hide as rocks? He spammed them the whole time lol.

Again, what he did is smart, I'm not debating that, Naruto is great with how he uses his Kage Bushins. Point I'm making is, that just because he can create a ton and then come up with a strategy to use them, does not mean he is an actual master of the jutsu.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 04:33 PM

That indeed. The problems are just that despite all his destructive power and sensor abilities, SM Naruto has nothing to counter the effects of ET and Madara's space-time jutsu, not even with Raikage's speed could he land a blow on Madara. Minato specifically predicted that the Kyuubi's chakra would be required for Madara's downfall, as even he himself could not stop Madara entirely. So an SM Naruto would likely deal massive blows to the new Pains, but not able to deal conclusive damage to take them out.

I would say that the SM Naruto is clearly a jounin on A-S level, but it was the Kyuubi's outbreak that turned the battle around in Konoha. Up until that point, he got completely outmatched by Deva pain and were already captured before the turnaround.

That is very true.

But Naruto is one tricky ninja. I'm pretty sure he will come up with something awesome to counter Madara. =D

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:33 PM

That is not true..against Pain he not only created them but I believe they took on the shape of rocks did they?

They used henge no jutsu which is just another jutsu, it has nothing to do with Kage Bushin. All Kage Bushin can preform the jutsu of their orginal copy so long as they have the chakra to do so.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 04:35 PM

Because this is stupid as hell. If your going to run a marathon and start a full speed people are gonna say thisis stupid. Make sense.

How in the world do you even know that naruto is going at full speed, can you actually magically tell how much chakra is he using, I mean for god sake he hasn't even use the Bijuu bomb, stop assuming stuff before you have evidence. I dont know where some of you people are getting this fact from.

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:36 PM

I don't deny that, but again, his skill with the actual technique does not show he is a master of it. He is simply great at using the clones once he makes them, but there is nothing special about the clones themselves that make him a master.

Picture this unrealistic situation.

A marksman is a master shot, but he is not a master of creating a gun.

A gunsmith is a master at making a gun, but not a master shot.

Naruto is the marksman, not the gunsmith more or less. He makes A LOT of normal clones, then uses them expertly.

If he could say, make a thousand clones that all go boom like Itachi's did, then we might be going somewhere as the clones are more developed than just a regular Kage Bushin.

Mate...who cares who makes the tool so long as the person using it is effective right? Naruto learned KB from a scroll and he is the master of using KB as a tool in his base form...Itachi making KBs explode is just a way he has decided to use the base KB tool because he can't possibly make a thousand. Kakashi and his lightning clones which suck a lot of chakra is the same..Naruto's way of using the KB tool is making a higher number and employing them in strategies...

Sparkling Chidori

June 29, 2011, 04:36 PM

People complaining about KB spamming and Rasengan spamming? Really?

I'm glad I'm not you guys, honestly speaking 'cos I felt that was an awesome chapter. The variations of the rasengan's and the mini rasenshuriken were just mind-boggling, Naruto's evolved so much and I very much doubt we've seen the full extent of his power. Can't wait to see the reactions of everyone once they see Naruto's Kage Bunshin's and it will be very interesting to see if the KB's will have a great effect on the actual battles that are taking place or if they are just for information gathering purposes.

This chapter was pure gold.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 04:37 PM

Did you miss the moment when he used all of them to close the gap on Deva yet they all get blown away? Or when he had them hide as rocks? He spammed them the whole time lol.

Again, what he did is smart, I'm not debating that, Naruto is great with how he uses his Kage Bushins. Point I'm making is, that just because he can create a ton and then come up with a strategy to use them, does not mean he is an actual master of the jutsu.

Before you go any further, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE A MASTERED KB WOULD LOOK LIKE ? I want to know, because so far naruto is the only one to show any skill with it.

Thats the question everyone should be asking themselves if they wish to make this debate go any further. Because I dont know what a mastered Kb would look like.

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:38 PM

They used henge no jutsu which is just another jutsu, it has nothing to do with Kage Bushin. All Kage Bushin can preform the jutsu of their orginal copy so long as they have the chakra to do so.

Yeah but you claimed that KB was only useful in a forest and I was just pointing out that the statement was incorrect because he can use KBs anywhere effectively as he has shown...

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 04:41 PM

One thing I would like to point out is that Naruto would need a good amount of chakra to perform Sage mode. If Naruto was almost drained from bijuu chakra Mode, he may not even be able to go into Sage Mode. Also, Sage Mode doesn't regenerate your chakra. The main problem would be how tired Naruto is after Bijuu chakra Mode and how tired Naruto would be after sage mode wore out also. On top of that, against certain people naruto could be in huge trouble if he dropped out of either of those modes.

With that said, i think collaboration with the Kyuubi will become very important. I also hope to see if naruto will be able to integrate Sage Mode and Bijuu Chakra Mode and what advaantages and disadvantages that might have.

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 04:42 PM

__________________________________________

Ok, chapter was not THAT terrible although I can't say it made sense for naruto to suddently be capable of crapping rasengans like that. A minute ago he could not make a proper rasengan and now he is making them with one finger? kinda weird IMO.

The relationship between zetsu and hashirama was more than obvious for a while now although it is nice to have confirmation. Madara's body is most likely a variation of zetsu too, even the portions of his face we have seen look like zetsu. I would bet the black half of zetsu holds the power of the uchiha and madara used the two of them to make himself a rikudo body so to speak. I wonder how madara took control of the former jinchuiriki and attached rinnengans to them without the eyes they had before regenerating. Naruto has a real problem considering regular pain was just that dificult to beat. These new six paths of pain have the chakra of their biju and immortal bodies... Regular old pain was able to take out thousands of shinobi on his own and shinra tensei disposed of konoha as a whole. Saying those 7 guys can take out the remainder of the shinobi alliance is not exageration. If anything, a gross understatement. Naruto would need at least the actual cooperation of the kyubi to win IMO and the other half of its chakra which minato did not seal in him.

Actually, I think it's proof that Naruto simply has more control over the Kyuubi's power now. Naruto has his normal chakra, and then he can perform nature transformation to use wind nature chakra. It seems the first time Naruto tried a Rasengan in Kyuubi Chakra Mode, he inadvertently used the Kyuubi's plus and minus chakra, which I believe is a basic chakra nature of all bijuu, even though other bijuu have showcased that they can use other elements too. It's with that plus and minus chakra that Naruto had trouble creating a Rasengan.

It seems that Naruto, with better control over the Kyuubi's power, can create rasengans that simply benefit from the massive and powerful chakra of the Kyuubi. Think of it in the context of when Naruto was training to combine wind natured chakra with his Rasengan. We all knew that a Rasengan was easy for Naruto, but he was having all sorts of hell combining the rasengan perfectly with wind natured chakra.

At any time Naruto wanted to give up on trying that, he could have, and he could have simply just created normal rasengans. Well, I think that's where we're at currently. Naruto, right now, is choosing not to use that black looking chakra nature of the Kyuubi, and is just using all that basic and powerful chakra of the Kyuubi's.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:42 PM

Yeah but you claimed that KB was not only useful in a forest and I was just pointing out that the statement was incorrect because he can use KBs anywhere effectively as he has shown...

Christ, I explained that Naruto's jutsu Skuriken from all directions isn't useful unless in a forest because clones can't magically fly or be in tree to throw shuriken from all direction. There's a reason why Naruto only used that jutsu once.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 04:43 PM

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:45 PM

Christ, I explained that Naruto's jutsu Skuriken from all directions isn't useful unless in a forest because clones can't magically fly or be in tree to throw shuriken from all direction. There's a reason why Naruto only used that jutsu once.

Ok - Maybe I read you incorrectly. I apologise. I thought you were implying that KBs were only good for the forest etc... :p

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 04:47 PM

Tobi said he wanted to become whole, why does he need a new body, when he is immortal and has the power that he has now, all he want is the the remaining jinchuriki to complete his plan, and plus I dont see how naruto power can give him a new Body, I dont even remember him saying that he needs a new body, If you find a link post it and show me please.

As far as the translations that I've read are concerned, Madara wanted to be whole/complete. He said this when he visited Naruto, Kakashi, and Yamato in the Iron Country. He also said after Pain was defeated that he wanted the Resurrection Jutsu to be used on him. I wonder though how this would all play out in the current events.

I don't know if it's because of Tobi's character which is very misleading, but I also want to know why he said that he wants Sasuke to sync with Gedo Mazo. In light of recent chapters, I don't know how this is going to happen especially since he can summon the monster himself.

All in all, Tobi seemed to have plans underneath the underneath that we can't really deduce everyone of them accurately. All we can do is speculate or guess based on what was shown and hope that Kishi answers our questions soon.

Mito was Tsuande's grandmother though, so she has both Senju and Uzumaki blood in her. Her knowing more Fuuinjutsu is entirely possible, as for why she hasn't used it yet, just blame that on the plot not needing her too and Kishi not deciding the Uzumaki's were sealing experts until 250 chapters after Tsuande was introduced.

That or maybe Tsunade was too young yet to be thought sealing jutsus. Although, actually, I like your take on the matter. Plus, why doesn't she have Mokuton? Is is because one of her parent's blood/genes is more dominant over her uzumaki and senju lineage?

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:49 PM

Before you go any further, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE A MASTERED KB WOULD LOOK LIKE ? I want to know, because so far naruto is the only one to show any skill with it.

Thats the question everyone should be asking themselves if they wish to make this debate go any further. Because I dont know what a mastered Kb would look like.

Naruto is the only one to show skill with it? So Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi, and Sarturobi all sucked with Kage Bushin ok.

We haven't seen a master of Kage Bushin. A master to me, would be someone who could make a clone that could basically take all the damage of the orginal body. Thus far, Naruto's clones get punched and kicked and they die.

A master could also be someone who could make perfect clones out of elements. Or who could create clones that are connected telepathically making them an even greater danger in combat.

Like I said, Naruto is a master of Sage Mode. Why is a master? Because he perfected it, then he managed to find a way to get into it near instantly, and stay in it for longer periods of time.

Naruto is also a master of Rasengan. Why? Because he added an element to it, and has several different versions of the jutsu. Similar to how Kakashi and Sasuke are masters of chidori.

BUT, to say Naruto is a master of Kage Bushin makes no sense. Why? Because his Kage Bushins now are no different than they were when he first made them in the Forest in chapter 3. In fact, Naruto after 3 years of using the damn technique didn't even know one of it's basic functions until someone else told him.

Understand the DIFFERENCE between being a master of a technique, and being a master of implementing it in combat. Naruto is the latter, not the former.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Ok - Maybe I read you incorrectly. I apologise. I thought you were implying that KBs were only good for the forest etc... :p

Lol hell no. Kage Bushin is perhaps the best jutsu in the manga. Being able to make an identical copy of yourself that can do everything you can is insane.

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 04:50 PM

It would be interesting to see Naruto using SM to slow down Kyuubi leaching his chackra.

The issue with that is that Sage Mode doesn't give you more chakra and doesn't regenerate it. It uses your chakra, mixes it with natural energy and makes it stronger and makes the user overall stronger. I don't think people are fully understanding that. i believe Naruto will just have to pass that phase with Kyuubi in order to not have his chakra leeched.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 04:51 PM

That or maybe Tsunade was too young yet to be thought sealing jutsus. Although, actually, I like your take on the matter. Plus, why doesn't she have Mokuton? Is is because one of her parent's blood/genes is more dominant over her uzumaki and senju lineage?

I liken Moukton to the Rinnegan, it's a bloodline trait, but not one that everyone in a bloodline can have.

Genetically speaking Moukton and the Rinnegan are probably mutations that can only happen once, or a few times or the many generations. And Moukton is even more rare than the Rinnegan as Hashirama was the only one to ever have it prior to Yamato.

lordHokage

June 29, 2011, 04:52 PM

You're still wrong. Sage chakra allows Naruto to sense. Meaning he would already be in sage mode. Natural energy would have to be drawn in for it to affect Tobi. natural Energy is the only thing that could really harm you if absorbed. Natural Energy + Physical energy + Spiritual Energy = Sage Chakra. Anyways, if Tobi were to be absorbing energy from naruto as Naruto drew in natural energy, then he would be turned to stone. However, as I've pointed out. Naruto isn't in that form right now. Also, we're not sure exactly how Tobi would go about and fast he would be able to take and utilize the chakra. The point still stands that Naruto's Bijuu Chakra mode gives life and that could be used to make Tobi become whole again.

When was Tobi never whole? :p

His true identity is still a mystery but he claims to be Uchiha Madara. I just cannot see why this loser wants Sage Naruto powers all for himself unless Tobi is falling hard for him. I don't think Tobi knows the full extent of Toad powers but something tells me that he's going to find out sooner rather later just how powerful Sage Naruto really is. And as for Naruto isn't in that form right now, I disagree because there is no way possible for Sage Naruto performing Tajuu Kage Bunshin no jutsu since he hasn't mastered Kyuubi Chakra Mode. I hope Sage Naruto creates another variation of Rasengan for Tobi and his wanna be Six Path of Pain. Mini Rasen Shuriken was so cute and awesome but I want to see something very special for Tobi. :D

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:53 PM

Naruto is the only one to show skill with it? So Jiraiya, Kakashi, Itachi, and Sarturobi all sucked with Kage Bushin ok.

We haven't seen a master of Kage Bushin. A master to me, would be someone who could make a clone that could basically take all the damage of the orginal body. Thus far, Naruto's clones get punched and kicked and they die.

A master could also be someone who could make perfect clones out of elements. Or who could create clones that are connected telepathically making them an even greater danger in combat.

Like I said, Naruto is a master of Sage Mode. Why is a master? Because he perfected it, then he managed to find a way to get into it near instantly, and stay in it for longer periods of time.

Naruto is also a master of Rasengan. Why? Because he added an element to it, and has several different versions of the jutsu. Similar to how Kakashi and Sasuke are masters of chidori.

BUT, to say Naruto is a master of Kage Bushin makes no sense. Why? Because his Kage Bushins now are no different than they were when he first made them in the Forest in chapter 3. In fact, Naruto after 3 years of using the damn technique didn't even know one of it's basic functions until someone else told him.

Understand the DIFFERENCE between being a master of a technique, and being a master of implementing it in combat. Naruto is the latter, not the former.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Lol hell no. Kage Bushin is perhaps the best jutsu in the manga. Being able to make an identical copy of yourself that can do everything you can is insane.

The master of a technique is the one that knows how to implement it in battle, he knows the inside out of the tech and knows how to apply it....surely that is what a master is ...surely that is what it means to master a tech?

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 04:53 PM

I dont think that's how it is...that's only true if Uzumaki Mito is related to Kushina and I dont think they were....I could be wrong though

But Mito is related to Kushina. They're both Uzumaki. Like how all Uchiha's are related.

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 04:57 PM

I think mastery of KB is dependent upon who is using it. In Naruto's case, he has the chakra to do more over the top things with them and form different strategies. Itachi uses clones and explodes them, confuses his opponent with them and genjutsu so they aren't sure if they're in genjutsu or not and he's already so adept at not getting hit that you think you're fighting the real one the whole time.

fistsofrage

June 29, 2011, 04:57 PM

I like the idea of Naruto using Sage mode to help him replenish his chakra. When he's tired he can just meditate until his tank is full again lol. Either that or eat ramen.

Hrathgrath

June 29, 2011, 04:58 PM

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 04:59 PM

Truballa11

June 29, 2011, 04:59 PM

As we get closer to the end of the Manga I see that Naruto has made his own family throughout the course of the story. Tsunade is grandma, J-man is grandpa, Bee is his uncle, Sasuke(I cry about everything) is like his brother. It's getting more family oriented than I would have ever thought. I like this revalation. It shows that his strong family values are what carry who thru during many of his fights whenever he want to protect someone.

On a different note--- What the hell is that Power from Itachi

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 05:00 PM

But Mito is related to Kushina. They're both Uzumaki. Like how all Uchiha's are related.

I've always wondered how a species could start without some form of inbreeding. I still haven't figured that out.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:00 PM

The master of a technique is the one that knows how to implement it in battle, he knows the inside out of the tech and knows how to apply it....surely that is what a master is ...surely that is what it means to master a tech?

Naruto doesn't know the insides an out of Kage Bushin tho. He knows the insides and out of Rasengan, that's for sure, but not Kage Bushin.

Saying I know how to implement a gun in battle means I point and shoot it. But I don't know how to take the gun apart, modify it to make it fire better, do I?

This is the point I've been trying to make, Naruto's actual clones themselves haven't gotten any better. He hasn't made the jutsu better or refined it like he has his other techniques. It doesn't take him less chakra to make clones, and the clones themselves don't have any improvements on them.

samsiufan

June 29, 2011, 05:03 PM

Sooooo.... Did Kishi decide that chapter 518 didn't happen?? Cause in that chapter they determined that #1 a normal rasengan won't work in naruto's ninetail chakra mode, and#2 that if naruto used shadow clones in that mode that the fox would drain his chakra really really fast and he would die......but I guess that never happened???

He is not using a normal rasengan though...he is using a rasengan made out of the chakra cloak and not his chakra...so he is manipulating the chakra cloak to create rasengans...at least that is how I saw it...regarding the KB, I await Kishi's explanation with baited breadth...

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Naruto doesn't know the insides an out of Kage Bushin tho. He knows the insides and out of Rasengan, that's for sure, but not Kage Bushin.

Saying I know how to implement a gun in battle means I point and shoot it. But I don't know how to take the gun apart, modify it to make it fire better, do I?
This is the point I've been trying to make, Naruto's actual clones themselves haven't gotten any better. He hasn't made the jutsu better or refined it like he has his other techniques. It doesn't take him less chakra to make clones, and the clones themselves don't have any improvements on them.

Why would I modify a gun that works? I master it and learn its nuances and use it effectively... :p

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 05:05 PM

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:08 PM

Why would I modify a gun that works? I master it and learn its nuances and use it effectively... :p

Does Naruto know it's nuances though? After three years of using the technique Kakashi had to explain to him that he recieved info. back from the clones :notrust.

IMO, just because Sasuke had a three tomoe Sharigan and used that to it's fully abilities, did that make him a master of the Sharigan? No, because he had yet to achieve the Sharigan's full potential.

Same thing applies here for Naruto with Kage Bushins if you ask me, he hasn't reached the full potential of the technique, and thus can't truly be considered a master of it like he is with Sage Mode and Rasengan.

jaymizzo

June 29, 2011, 05:08 PM

I don't deny that, but again, his skill with the actual technique does not show he is a master of it. He is simply great at using the clones once he makes them, but there is nothing special about the clones themselves that make him a master.

Picture this unrealistic situation.

A marksman is a master shot, but he is not a master of creating a gun.

A gunsmith is a master at making a gun, but not a master shot.

Naruto is the marksman, not the gunsmith more or less. He makes A LOT of normal clones, then uses them expertly.

If he could say, make a thousand clones that all go boom like Itachi's did, then we might be going somewhere as the clones are more developed than just a regular Kage Bushin.

Naruto is a master at KB, But not good with Elemental Manipulation.

Your examples state; Kakashi using Lightning KB etc, those are Elemental infused bunshins, not regular bunshins, hence they have different names. Naruto is a Master of Regular/Base KB

Hrathgrath

June 29, 2011, 05:09 PM

It's best to wait and see how it plays out. I think the issue with the rasengan was not that it was impossible to do a normal rasengan in that form. i think it was just that he didn't realize, due to no experience with the form, he was using yin and yang chakra at the time. I think once he learned to form and how to manipulate the chakra, he could use whichever chakra he wanted. For example, he's able to do FRS where he adds wind nature.
If I remember right he said specifically, "I guess a normal rasengan won't work in this mode.."

hakuthehedgehog

June 29, 2011, 05:10 PM

I don't think Naruto is using the chakra from the Kyuubi to make the rasengans: Bijuu chakra is the white and black chakra: he is probably using his own chakra, with the support of the extra hands from the Kyuubi, to make the Rasengans.

While it actually makes him able to awesome sh*t like in this chapter, it probably tires him much more quickly because he is using his own chakra and not the Kyuubi's.

About the KB: the Kyuubi is now sucking 13 times faster: if Naruto doesn't talk-no jutsu Kyuub: which should be easy (Madara will make you his bitch (again) and kill you if you don't cooperate - btw you are a cute fox) he's going to drop pretty fast.

Also, Naruto's KB were able to enter Sage mode, so I don't think Naruto will be unable to enter it unless he has only 5% of chakra.

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 05:12 PM

I don't really know what some are trying to argue. Naruto is THE most impressive shinobi when it comes to using Shadow Clones in this entire manga.

Sarutobi, Itachi, Jiraiya and Kakashi can all use the shadow clones. In fact, they can do some advanced things with shadow clones that Naruto can't. However, when you look at all the advanced things that Naruto is able to accomplish with Shadow Clones that none of those other shinobi can, then it's clear that Naruto is the most impressive Shadow Clone user in the manga.

Kakashi used his lightning shadow clone, and then where was he? He was left with about half of his chakra after that. Itachi performed a special shadow clone against Kakashi, and then shortly after using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi, Itachi became noticeably tired, which Kakashi noticed. Even with their impressive tricks, the roof isn't nearly as high for their potential uses of the shadow clone technique compared to Naruto's.

A big part of the reason that Naruto was able to master the FRS is because of his high chakra and stamina. Kakashi himself noted that Naruto is the only shinobi who could go through training such as that. The Shadow Clone technique, to use it the way Naruto does, is about more than just having impressive chakra. You require amazing stamina as well, and just because there may be shinobi who also has a 5 in the stamina department in the databook, we should know that not all 5s in the databook are created equally. That'd be like comparing Orochimaru's 5 in Genjutsu to Itachi's.

Also, Itachi used Crow Clone techniques against Sasuke, not the shadow clone technique. The Crow Clone Technique requires less chakra because Crows are used as a medium.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

The master of a technique is the one that knows how to implement it in battle, he knows the inside out of the tech and knows how to apply it....surely that is what a master is ...surely that is what it means to master a tech?

Exactly, people are trying to play this clever word game, and somehow hope that people aren't smart enough to realize that someone who is a master at implementing a technique in battle, is still, at the end of the day, a master of that technique.

I wouldn't say that Kakashi or Itachi aren't masters of using the shadow clone technique, not at all. However, Naruto is an even greater master than they are.

toussaintac

June 29, 2011, 05:15 PM

If I remember right he said specifically, "I guess a normal rasengan won't work in this mode.."

Yeah, he may have said that when he originally had that problem, but that doesn't mean it was a permanent issue. All that's needed was practice. training solves a lot of issues.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 05:15 PM

Naruto doesn't know the insides an out of Kage Bushin tho. He knows the insides and out of Rasengan, that's for sure, but not Kage Bushin.

Saying I know how to implement a gun in battle means I point and shoot it. But I don't know how to take the gun apart, modify it to make it fire better, do I?

This is the point I've been trying to make, Naruto's actual clones themselves haven't gotten any better. He hasn't made the jutsu better or refined it like he has his other techniques. It doesn't take him less chakra to make clones, and the clones themselves don't have any improvements on them.

thats not true he has been able to shorten the time from when he summon them and how fast he summon them, just like how he can enter sage mode faster-

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 05:20 PM

Please do me a favor and re-read the entire Pain fight. When he was no longer in Sage Mode, he spammed Kage Bushins. Again, re-read please.

You know, it really issn't fair to just say that, it was a tactic he came up with. He lost the speed to deal with Pains ability, so whats the other option? Momentum, of cours! If nothing else, Naruto was brilliant in realizing he needed momentum, for gods sake, it was a strategy, not some desperate measure, and it worked!

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:21 PM

thats not true he has been able to shorten the time from when he summon them and how fast he summon them, just like how he can enter sage mode faster-

They are summoned instantly right after he makes the seal....they always have been done that way.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 05:23 PM

They are summoned instantly right after he makes the seal....they always have been done that way.

they have not, then why did kakashi said during the time when naruto had came from training with J-man that he has better timing on Kb when him and sakura was trying to get the bell.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:26 PM

You know, it really issn't fair to just say that, it was a tactic he came up with. He lost the speed to deal with Pains ability, so whats the other option? Momentum, of cours! If nothing else, Naruto was brilliant in realizing he needed momentum, for gods sake, it was a strategy, not some desperate measure, and it worked!

It would be great if you could re-read my comments before saying something like this. The entire time have be praising Naruto for how good he is at using his mass amout of Shadow Clones. My gripe is that I don't think he deserves the title of master via is actual ability to do more than just spam the technique.

insid3rkill3r

June 29, 2011, 05:26 PM

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:27 PM

they have not, then why did kakashi said during the time when naruto had came from training with J-man that he has better timing on Kb when him and sakura was trying to get the bell.

Better timing as in he wasn't making them pointlessly, he managed to get one behind Kakashi's clone when they first started fighting only for Kakashi to say he hadn't said go yet.

rell250

June 29, 2011, 05:30 PM

I don't really know what some are trying to argue. Naruto is THE most impressive shinobi when it comes to using Shadow Clones in this entire manga.

Sarutobi, Itachi, Jiraiya and Kakashi can all use the shadow clones. In fact, they can do some advanced things with shadow clones that Naruto can't. However, when you look at all the advanced things that Naruto is able to accomplish with Shadow Clones that none of those other shinobi can, then it's clear that Naruto is the most impressive Shadow Clone user in the manga.

Kakashi used his lightning shadow clone, and then where was he? He was left with about half of his chakra after that. Itachi performed a special shadow clone against Kakashi, and then shortly after using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi, Itachi became noticeably tired, which Kakashi noticed. Even with their impressive tricks, the roof isn't nearly as high for their potential uses of the shadow clone technique compared to Naruto's.

A big part of the reason that Naruto was able to master the FRS is because of his high chakra and stamina. Kakashi himself noted that Naruto is the only shinobi who could go through training such as that. The Shadow Clone technique, to use it the way Naruto does, is about more than just having impressive chakra. You require amazing stamina as well, and just because there may be shinobi who also has a 5 in the stamina department in the databook, we should know that not all 5s in the databook are created equally. That'd be like comparing Orochimaru's 5 in Genjutsu to Itachi's.

Also, Itachi used Crow Clone techniques against Sasuke, not the shadow clone technique. The Crow Clone Technique requires less chakra because Crows are used as a medium.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

Exactly, people are trying to play this clever word game, and somehow hope that people aren't smart enough to realize that someone who is a master at implementing a technique in battle, is still, at the end of the day, a master of that technique.

I wouldn't say that Kakashi or Itachi aren't masters of using the shadow clone technique, not at all. However, Naruto is an even greater master than they are.

Even though its very hard for me to say this after Naruto being so awesome. He hasn't been as efficient with SC as Kakashi, Itachi, and Hiruzen. He can no doubt spam the technique without drawbacks but compared to other characters who are forced to use it efficiently, I think he's a step behind in that department. I don't think Naruto is master of the jutsu at all actually. But Naruto knows alot about the jutsu now so hopefully he'll be even more efficient. but then again he has so much chakra he doesn't need to be efficient. We've seen Kakashi make a lightning clone that paralyzes the target and we've seen Naruto spam a bunch of regular clones. Idk what you consider to be mastering. No doubt being able to make sooo many clones is a feat only he can do which sets him apart but doesn't make him a master of the jutsu.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 05:30 PM

I thought the rasen shuriken could only be thrown in sage mode, guess thats not the case.

As for the rasengan, it still makes sense for it to work like that. The explanation would be that to create it, Naruto uses his own chakra which isnt mixed with the kyuubi's and uses kyuubi's shape manipulation to do the shaping job.

Kyuubi's chakra just isnt being implanted into the rasengan, it's 100% naruto chakra made rasengans

We can't say for sure yet those rasegans are made of Naruto chackra. They could potentially be made of kyuubi's chackra.
Naruto is a master in bending the rules, and finding different ways to do what he wants.

Of course that according to what we have seen so far, those rasengans are probably made of Naruto's chackra. But there is still a chance that this might not be the case.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 05:32 PM

The FRS had to made of Naruto's chakra because you need wind to make it, so unless the Kyuubi has an affinity for wind, we know he made that jutsu at the very least.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 05:33 PM

xaither

June 29, 2011, 05:35 PM

Better timing as in he wasn't making them pointlessly, he managed to get one behind Kakashi's clone when they first started fighting only for Kakashi to say he hadn't said go yet.

the page that I was reading kakashi said " the use of the Kb.... The Timing.... very clever",either way I believe that to say something is mastered is to say that it was incomplete in the first place, I dont believe that KB was incomplete.

Lexotan

June 29, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 05:38 PM

The FRS had to made of Naruto's chakra because you need wind to make it, so unless the Kyuubi has an affinity for wind, we know he made that jutsu at the very least.

That is true.

I hope Kishi elaborates more on this subject later on.

That would also explain why we saw a very small FRS, his trying to save on his chakra, which illustrates that he is concerned about overuse, although maybe not enough.

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 05:38 PM

I liken Moukton to the Rinnegan, it's a bloodline trait, but not one that everyone in a bloodline can have.

Genetically speaking Moukton and the Rinnegan are probably mutations that can only happen once, or a few times or the many generations. And Moukton is even more rare than the Rinnegan as Hashirama was the only one to ever have it prior to Yamato.

You're probably correct. This could also explain why the Nidaime didn't have Mokuton. Tough luck really if we're to consider the Senju as the only clan to fight equally with the Uchiha and that Mokuton is what primarily helped the Shodaime to fight Madara and the Kyuubi. How the hell they managed to fight a clan of sharingan users is beyond me although we can say that some Uchihas, bar the named ones, are just as good as any normal shinobi.

xaither

June 29, 2011, 05:40 PM

That would also explain why we saw a very small FRS, his trying to save on his chakra, which illustrates that he is concerned about overuse, although maybe not enough.

I think it safe to say that naruto is smart enough to know when he need to save chakra and when he doesn't, Its his body and we don't know what happening to it at the moment, but he wouldn't push it to the point where he would be exhausted to fight madara, just believe in him and dont worry :p like I am doing right now.

Sage ninetail

June 29, 2011, 05:41 PM

It was an awesome chapter where naruto showcased true awesomeness, but this is only zetsus. I want to see him against true opponents where he is going to show some new tricks as well.
Also prepare prepare to see naruto use sealing jutsus as it was stated that the only way to beat the zombies is to seal them. I would've said so(like many others) because I think naruto is pretty good at it, and his new seal probably has more to it than what meet the eye.
When naruto talked with kyubi awhile back; he noticed himself that the kyubi is eating his chakra while he is using kyubi's.
what I'm going for is that naruto may have come with the idea to use kyubi as a big magnet to attract natural energy.
My point is this:
-if kyubi has naruto chakra while naruto is using kyubi's, then if naruto collect natural energy to create sage chakra, kyubi would be like a container,
-since natural energy + naruto chakra= sage chakra and we all know the kyubi has the greatest pool of chakra,
-then naruto could extract a huge amount of sage chakra and stored in one of his temple like what he did with kyubi chakra.
With this way naruto could not only combine the two modes, but could use them independently. he would no longer have to sit around and gather natural energy and can enter sage mode while moving, and resolve the KB issue as well.
Anyways we'll see what's going to happen next week, but given the confidence he displayed and knowing the danger I wouldn't be surprise if he came up with something to counter the drawbacks.
And of course in order for naruto to do what I just predicted, he would've to befriend kyubi first.
well then see you next week

decadoh

June 29, 2011, 05:44 PM

I've always wondered how a species could start without some form of inbreeding. I still haven't figured that out.

At one point or another, but most probably at the early stages of a clan, in breeding is needed. This would also make it that no outside bloodline would affect the clan's lineage thus preserving their Kekkai Genkai. I'm purely speculating. I can't remember how it works in reality when we take the study of ACTUAL biology into the equation.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 05:47 PM

I think it safe to say that naruto is smart enough to know when he need to save chakra and when he doesn't, Its his body and we don't know what happening to it at the moment, but he wouldn't push it to the point where he would be exhausted to fight madara, just believe in him and dont worry :p like I am doing right now.

Well yeah, given that you had to go through a chain of thoughts to reach that logic, sure :P
In all honestly though, I don't belive in Naruto, it seems as if his too overconfident in him self, it's bound to backfire. His still not a real experienced either.

Madara is way underestimated, and no one knows that he now also has Rinnegan and dead bodies following him around with same eyes.... Madara just jumped to a whole new level, I would be surpriced if Naruto knows what his going into.

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 05:48 PM

Even though its very hard for me to say this after Naruto being so awesome. He hasn't been as efficient with SC as Kakashi, Itachi, and Hiruzen. He can no doubt spam the technique without drawbacks but compared to other characters who are forced to use it efficiently, I think he's a step behind in that department. I don't think Naruto is master of the jutsu at all actually. But Naruto knows alot about the jutsu now so hopefully he'll be even more efficient. but then again he has so much chakra he doesn't need to be efficient. We've seen Kakashi make a lightning clone that paralyzes the target and we've seen Naruto spam a bunch of regular clones. Idk what you consider to be mastering. No doubt being able to make sooo many clones is a feat only he can do which sets him apart but doesn't make him a master of the jutsu.

The amount of clones he can produce isn't what makes him a master of it though. It's he consisent ability to outsmart his opponents through the use of KB. I also don't see how creating a new technique from an old one as mastering the old technique. Naruto mastered rasengan when he was able to use it against Kabuto in battle, not when he created FRS/all the variations.

uzumaki30

June 29, 2011, 05:50 PM

People are saying that itachi, kakashi, third hokage are better at using the shadow clone technique than naruto, but aren't you forgetting that there are different clone jutsus for example won't kakashi lighting jutsu and the other element jutsus.. also don't the clone jutsu have different hand seals. like itachi's exploding clone and naruto does no those handseals. so we can say that naruto is a master of the shadow clone specifically but not the other clone jutsus.

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 05:58 PM

The amount of clones he can produce isn't what makes him a master of it though. It's he consisent ability to outsmart his opponents through the use of KB. I also don't see how creating a new technique from an old one as mastering the old technique. Naruto mastered rasengan when he was able to use it against Kabuto in battle, not when he created FRS/all the variations.

I guess we're all talking past each others with the pick of words though.. There are different understandings of "mastering".

Variations of the word "mastering"...
- At University, a Master, aka ph.d, is someone who is simply graduated at highest level, but brought something "new" to the community. So you're only a master, if you're graduated at highest level (not the best, but graduated) and brought something new to the community. You're then rewarded the title of a doctor, master, pd.d even if you lack knowledge in other areas of the study.
- The word mastering gives the impression that can do / know everything about the subject, you have to be perfect, knowing everything there is to know or be cable of anything possible.
- Third way, just beeing able to do the technique is mastering.
- Possible more ways of understanding the word...

hmm, interesting :headscratch

godaijutsu-no-hito

June 29, 2011, 05:58 PM

It would be great if you could re-read my comments before saying something like this. The entire time have be praising Naruto for how good he is at using his mass amout of Shadow Clones. My gripe is that I don't think he deserves the title of master via is actual ability to do more than just spam the technique.

Just because he CAN spam the technique because it is NEEDED doesn't make Naruto's use of SC inefficient!!! He needs to be in several places at once...so he needs to spam SC...which is exactly what he did. Against Pain, Naruto HAD to create a lot of SCs to absorb the shock of shinra tensei which mind you was able to throw and pulverize 3 massive frogs at once! Naruto's technique of creating a cushion using SCs required him to create multiple SCs.

In every other occasion in his fight against Pain, Naruto used his SCs very skillfully. He worked around his limitation of shadow clone numbers and did really well. Naruto's use of SCs has been with pin point precision when it needed to be so (eg. being able to gather natural chakra using a SC!) and in prodigious numbers when he needed it (eg. against God Pain when he fought him in base mode). Another amazing example of precise control of his SCs has been his ability to use SCs to infuse other elements into rasengan.

Any way you look at it, Naruto's mastery of SC is complete. "Mastering a skill/tool" usually almost always refers to ability to use the skill/tool. Eg. programmers who make the computer games are hardly ever "masters of their computer games". The ones who are called the "masters of the game" are people who excel in playing the game and accomplishing things within the game that the original programmer would hardly hope to achieve. Those who make things are actually "Masters of making those things" but not necessarily "Masters of those things". At least that is how the word is usually used. A Kung Fu master doesn't invent Kung Fu...he/she just practices Kung Fu at a level over an above everyone else.

Naruffy

June 29, 2011, 06:02 PM

I guess we're all talking past each others with the pick of words though.. There are different understandings of "mastering".

Variations of the word "mastering"...
- At University, a Master, aka ph.d, is someone who is simply graduated at highest level, but brought something "new" to the community. So you're only a master, if you're graduated at highest level (not the best, but graduated) and brought something new to the community. You're then rewarded the title of a doctor, master, pd.d even if you lack knowledge in other areas of the study.
- The word mastering gives the impression that can do / know everything about the subject, you have to be perfect, knowing everything there is to know or be cable of anything possible.
- Third way, just beeing able to do the technique is mastering.
- Possible more ways of understanding the word...

hmm, interesting :headscratch

Well, if you look at the bet Naruto and Tsunade made, Naruto had a week to 'master' Rasengan. After that week Naruto used it in battle against Kabuto and thus won the bet. By that definition used in the manga, Naruto along with a lot of other ninja and indeed masters of KB. Who uses it best/ is more efficient is all down to opinion.

meeedoooz

June 29, 2011, 06:03 PM

Epic, Just Epic... This Is How a Shounen Manga Should Be :D, Maybe It's a Bit too Rushed But The Fans Were Getting a Little Bored With All The Talking And Flashbacks So Kishi Gave Us a Treat ... He Never Let Us Down That Kishi :D

Quantized

June 29, 2011, 06:08 PM

Well, if you look at the bet Naruto and Tsunade made, Naruto had a week to 'master' Rasengan. After that week Naruto used it in battle against Kabuto and thus won the bet. By that definition used in the manga, Naruto along with a lot of other ninja and indeed masters of KB. Who uses it best/ is more efficient is all down to opinion.

I don't disagree with you, nevertheless, I dind't show it either.
It's just that the term is understood very differently, you would have to make new words not to talk past each others or write it carefully.

In the case with Rasengan, I don't think Naruto actually "mastered" it by the terms Tsunade expected of him. Naruto cheathed but it was accepted by Tsunade.. :)
I guess what Tsunade expected was to be able to change size and to do it in 1 hand, but Naruto found a shotcut.

Saint Markus

June 29, 2011, 06:51 PM

after seeing this, i am dying to see what Sasuke can do. "DYING" to "SEE" what he can do now. can-not-wait.

katon_style

June 29, 2011, 06:52 PM

So now naruto kage bunsjin in RM will reach all battlefields and will start throwing FRS all over and will create a great supremacy.I bet a naruto KB on RM is much stronger than every other shinobi there except kakashi Guy Darui Kitsuchi and some other elite jounins.After this chapter now it is sure that juubi will be definetly revived but he will not become madara host and i still predict two other powerups for naruto.
1.In his current state he will defeat Sasuke
2.With Itachi gift and "that jutsu" he will kill madara after he has managed reviving juubi
3.With kyuubi full cooperation and with sasuke's help we will defeat juubi.

chitilinLasagne

June 29, 2011, 07:17 PM

Okay I think it's official Naruto is now in the same class of Ninja as the 4th. He's got a completely different style but based upon his abilities his father might be the only Kage who is his superior and that's a definate maybe. I only hope that when Sasuke appears they don't make the battle close because of some plot device like "Naruto is tired from the war" or something like that. It would makes his eventual victory seem contrived. Even though I can't stand Sasuke he is Naruto's rival and they both should be at full strenght when the fight finally happens.

Kinmagan Gil

June 29, 2011, 07:37 PM

Prediction! Naruto will crush the clones on the battlefield, then be forced to face the Six Paths, however KB will take his stead in the fray, and meet his doom, while Naruto faces off against Kabuto, and then Sasuke. It is my prediction that Sasuke and Naruto will eventually work against Madara. Next chapter in particular, a clone will meet Madara. Or... perhaps Madara is off to face Kabuto? Who knows? He has to solve that problem eventually. I think that Kabuto and Madara will perhaps be the ones to finish one or the other off(hopefully Madara loses for the twist, to be absorbed by Kabuto), leaving Naruto fresh for a showdown against Sasuke, then the victors or both facing the final boss in battle.

SenninSage

June 29, 2011, 07:46 PM

Just because he CAN spam the technique because it is NEEDED doesn't make Naruto's use of SC inefficient!!!

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Naruto's use of countless shadow clones isn't necessarily some sign that he's inefficient. It's his fighting style.

The funniest part about this entire chapter, is you actually have people trying to doubt that Naruto is a master of the shadow clone technique. It reminds me of all those people who still believe that Naruto has somehow not completely mastered the Rasengan because he doesn't create it with a single hand. Fact is, people arguing that Naruto somehow isn't a master of the Shadow Clone Technique, really don't even have an argument. It's that silly a suggestion. Naruto, Mr. Shadow Clone himself, isn't a master of the shadow clone technique.

There are many shinobi in this manga who would disagree with the very notion. Kakuzu, Pain, Gaara, Neji being among them. Even Kakashi himself would disagree. Complaining about Naruto's chakra and stamina as being the only reason he can do what he does with the shadow clone technique, is like complaining that Itachi and Sasuke being Uchiha are the only reason they can do what they do with their Sharingan. That would mean the very fact that they are skilled with it is made irrelevant by the fact that they were born Uchiha. Naruto was born the way he is, and he actually mastered the shadow clone technique separately. It wasn't just something he was destined to be capable of using the moment he was born.

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

So now naruto kage bunsjin in RM will reach all battlefields and will start throwing FRS all over and will create a great supremacy.I bet a naruto KB on RM is much stronger than every other shinobi there except kakashi Guy Darui Kitsuchi and some other elite jounins.After this chapter now it is sure that juubi will be definetly revived but he will not become madara host and i still predict two other powerups for naruto.
1.In his current state he will defeat Sasuke
2.With Itachi gift and "that jutsu" he will kill madara after he has managed reviving juubi
3.With kyuubi full cooperation and with sasuke's help we will defeat juubi.

A RM Naruto shadow clone is definitely more powerful than Kakashi, Gai, Darui, etc. However, it's instantly limited by the fact that it's done in a single hit. But make no mistake, Naruto is stronger than all the Alliance Shinobi currently present on the battlefield. He's even stronger than the ones not on the battlefield.

Delbi

June 29, 2011, 07:55 PM

Just because he CAN spam the technique because it is NEEDED doesn't make Naruto's use of SC inefficient!!! He needs to be in several places at once...so he needs to spam SC...which is exactly what he did. Against Pain, Naruto HAD to create a lot of SCs to absorb the shock of shinra tensei which mind you was able to throw and pulverize 3 massive frogs at once! Naruto's technique of creating a cushion using SCs required him to create multiple SCs.

In every other occasion in his fight against Pain, Naruto used his SCs very skillfully. He worked around his limitation of shadow clone numbers and did really well. Naruto's use of SCs has been with pin point precision when it needed to be so (eg. being able to gather natural chakra using a SC!) and in prodigious numbers when he needed it (eg. against God Pain when he fought him in base mode). Another amazing example of precise control of his SCs has been his ability to use SCs to infuse other elements into rasengan.

Any way you look at it, Naruto's mastery of SC is complete. "Mastering a skill/tool" usually almost always refers to ability to use the skill/tool. Eg. programmers who make the computer games are hardly ever "masters of their computer games". The ones who are called the "masters of the game" are people who excel in playing the game and accomplishing things within the game that the original programmer would hardly hope to achieve. Those who make things are actually "Masters of making those things" but not necessarily "Masters of those things". At least that is how the word is usually used. A Kung Fu master doesn't invent Kung Fu...he/she just practices Kung Fu at a level over an above everyone else.

Dear God you people need to read carefully. Have I said he was insufficient? Find my post where I said that, I dare you.

I can't make this any clearer, I've been saying his ability to use his clones is masterful, but his actual clones are not. They are just normal clones, Naruto is not a master of actual Kage Bushins, but you could say he is a master strategist while using them which is an entirely different thing.

As for you're last paragraph, you basically proved my argument correct, and it goes to show you can't even understand what the hell i've been saying the whole time.

Naruto is master at using the Kage Bushin strategically when it comes to using massive amounts of clones. With say, just one clone, Kakashi and Itachi have certainly shown to be better at it than Naruto. But when it comes to using multiple clones Naruto is the master.

HOWEVER! Naruto does not know how Kage Bushin works as good as say, Kakashi. AND he hasn't expanded upon the technique like Kakashi and Itachi have.

Nor has Naruto found a more chakra conserving way to make clones, or make clones that are more durable.

SO before responding to this post, understand what I am talking about.