Naruto's downfall & the dawn of the Legend!

[Quantized]

Right, I will likely get alot of haters and people who only read half the post before they start to yell at me, but in all seriousness, this is only discussion, peace :super


Embrace your self, this is pretty long prediction :sweat

Spoiler; This prediction is pretty long term, and analyses used that may spoil a "possible"ending of Naruto. Remember this is my theory, I do by no means claim any of this to be true or that im somehow magically has become "author", this may turn out very wrong.

Naruto's downfall & the dawn of the Legend!

Lately, we have seen Naruto go throgh alot of processes.
- Pain, "Will you be able to do something about the circle of hate?"
- Taking a beating willingly for Sasuke's crimes.
- Begging infront of Raikage
- Making up wih Sasuke, saying, "we will fight to the death if you attack Konoha".
- Then he learned Kyuubi mode, and got amazing power. This is where the movie cracks, Naruto looses it, in the sense, that he becomes way way too overconfident in him self, acting like a big shot, beeing arrogant, doing everything on his own even more than before.

Some people Welcome an arrogant Naruto, I don't. However I think it's a pattern that will pass like the others mentioned above, Naruto is developing as a charecter.
But how will he get out of beeing arrogant?
When people suddenly come to power, this is typically what happends, they loose connection to the ground and start to act weird, like beeing arrogant or high on them selves.

What will push Naruto down again? Whats the next charecter development?
I belive for this to happend, Naruto needs to have everythingas in power, and then, loose it all. Yes, he will loose the Kyuubi, as I see it, it's the only way for Naruto to come back down from his high horse.

Madara will win the war, we will see him attain the Juubi, and put the whole world into a major genjutsu by becomming the host of the Juubi. He will attain the perfect body.
I think we will see everything and everyone in missery, we will get a peak into the world Madara wants.

From this point on, it may sound abit farfetched, but Naruto will likely survive having the Kyuubi extracted, just like his mom did, (Forshadow or not?).

Naruto wakes up after a everything has happend, and he will find his world in ruin, everything is destroyed (all the villages) and many people has died (or not, depends). Tsunade will be dead (sorry granny, but Madara is really not so happy about you).

Ok, the farfetched part, and where I my self start to think, this is crazy :darn

Naruto looses everything, his powers, his world, his village, his old life, he failed to revert Sasuke once more, all his friends and the entire world lives in missery, everything is chaos, perhaps Madara is even killing ppl that Naruto care about.

Remember what ingredients that was needed to awaken Pain's rinnegan?
Ultramative pain. Well assuming it really is whats needed.

I don't think it was for no reason that Pain was called Pain, the Rinnegan is in many ways similar to the Sharingan.
Like how you archieve MS, you have to kill your best friend or close family member.
The special eyes are driven by emotions.

While Naruto has had a tough life, he never ever had the pain, to such an degree that Pain did experience.

Remember Naruto was better at handling his pain as a grownup teenager, than a little kid (7 years old?).

Seeing as Uzumaki is a distant relative to the Senju, this might just happend.
The Rinnegan is a mutation, an extreamly rare one at that, that can happend to anyone in the family of Senju / Uzumaki. The requirement could be both having the mutation and ultrmative pain / emotion? Just like with the MS Sharingan.

Naruto will be in pain, however, because of his past and charecter developement, unlike Pain (the char) he will not blame anyone but himself, he will push so much pain through him self, that he will reach the point Pain did as a 7 year old kid, his world will shatter, and Rinnegan will be born, in the midst of a world in chaos, where it's needed the most!

Remember Naruto's charecter developement? He will not blame others but him self, he will belive that he was the one who doomed everyone by going to the war (yet Madara would prolly have gotten to him anyway), but what matters is what he belives.
Unlike Pain, Naruto will gather the pieces up, remain his old self but still changed alot.
He will be reborn together with the Rinnegan, he will be Rinnegan, Rinnegan will be him.

We will then have the most epic battle to come, Naruto alrady had his fight with Sasuke in the mid-war, (Naruto affected Sasuke, but only some, Sasuke is now half evil / half good).

Naruto, a descentant of the great Sage, having both his body and his eyes, will Naruto be able to surpass the great Sage him self?

Madara will somehow archieve this perfect body of his (or nearly perfect), while keeping both the Sharingan and Rinnegan, he will archieve around the same level as the Sage was.

The ultramative showdown, the world is in chaos, everything is burning, everything is broken to pieces, and everyone are in missery... Yet there are still a slight hope, Naruto!

Naruto, the last great hope, becomes a legend defeating Madara, who basically, held the entire world in his palm.

I can't picture Sasuke into the last part, somehow we still lack the prober charecter developement from him to even guess a place for him... But a fan-fic guess would be that Sasuke at this point, after having faught Naruto, has lost some of his tainted evil heart and started to reverse a little bit back to his former self. I know this is cliche, but I think Sasuke will pull a Darth Vader on us, Naruto may archieve greatness alike the Sage, but will need Sasuke's help, somehow... But ultramatively, Naruto will be the one fighting Madara, and Sasuke is a too and rivall to develope the main Hero, considering it's a shounen not a normal story.

What better way is there to become a legend, which Naruto btw was predicted to become? Than doing this?
I don't see Naruto simply beating Madara making him a Legend, in fact, it would just be any other war with the minor detail that they worked together, for once.
The world has to taste the bitterness of Madara's victory, and only then, can Naruto perhaps surpass the Great Sage himself.
The world will not desire peace enough unless everyone has been pushed so far, that they nearly lost everything. Naruto will be that someone, who brings back peace, which nearly was lost forever.

As a shounen story, you also see the great Sage to be someone who is needed to be surpassed. Someone who won't be the greatest legendary forever, it will be handed over to Naruto, a true shounen hero.

Ok, alot of this could happend differently, but this is just my theory / prediction in large, of what will happend. But I belive in it, I think the main idea is actually what will happend.
It's up to you what you think, I only felt like sharing my thoughts.

You're most Welcome to come with your own theory in this thread, changes and constructive criticism is much appareciated! :amuse

[Gingitsune]

I agree with the part that Naruto will probably lost Kyuubi and won't die of it. Mito was too old to withstand the removal of Kyuubi and Kushina, although weak, didn't get the chance to die from it, she got impaled by Kyuubi's claw. Maybe she would have lived if she didn't had to fight Kyuubi. It's probably a forshawing to prevent a wtf!? moment when Naruto will survive (helped by Sakura or Tsunade maybe).

I don't think your take on the Rinnegan is right. Rinnegan is always "on", we have never seen Nagato with dark eyes like the Uchiha, so it's more likely to works like Byakugan than Sharingan. Sure, its power are triggered by strong feeling, but nothing confirm or infirm that Nagato could turn his doujutsu "on" and "off" like Uchiha do. Then, the Senju/Uzumaki link is just wong. Rikudou's doujutsu was passed down to his elder son and his descendants, the Uchiha and the Hyuuga. The younger son had his vitallity and body power (physical Kekkei Genkai ?), like the Senju and the Uzumaki. Of course, one of Nagato's parents was an Uzumaki, but the Rinnegan probably come from the other. Madara must have arrange a mix of the two lineages to recreate the original ancestor. If Naruto gain the Rinnegan, I believe it will be from ET Nagato, he did give Rinnegan to his six bodies and his numerous summons, to give it to Naruto and complete his Rikudou Sennin cosplay would be more probable.

Another problem I have with your theory is how would Naruto escape from the giant Tsukiyomi genjutsu? He can't brake a commun genjutsu to save his life, litterally. Someone else will have to break from the genjutsu (Sakura maybe?) and then go get Naruto.

[Quantized]

Hey! Thanks for reading it all, much appreaciated that you pulled through :amuse

yay someone else who belives the Kyuubi will be extracted :turtle


I belive, if I remember correctly, that Pain, Nagato, didn't have the eyes activated when Jiraiya first found him, it was only when he later got attacked and where Jiraiya rushed to their help that he for the first time saw Rinnegan in Nagato's eyes.
Edit: I went back in the chapters, and you're abselutely right, we never see his normal eyes, in fact, they're not shown by purpose by the looks of it... It's a blow to the theory! But we still don't know how exactly the Rinnegan is initiated though :)
http://www.mangareader.net/93-449-17/naruto/chapter-444.html

Fair point about the illusion, Naruto would need a way out of it. While I didn't forget it, I really don't have an idea how he could find a work around... Perhaps the Rinnegan has more special powers? It is afterall the superior eye technique.
This part is much more towards fan-fic, can't explain a possible way out of it, you got me good there :tem

Nevertheless, I think we yet have to see Rinnegans true power, something further than the 6 paths.

Im dying to see what Rinnegan is really cable of doing :sweat

[Gingitsune]

The bang over the eyes thing was to make the reader wonder which of Nagato and Yahiko would become Pain, and so Jiraiya wouldn't know before the death of the iwanin.

Edit: "Fair point about the illusion, Naruto would need a way out of it."

Maybe Itachi or Nagato could get out of the illusion and their master, Kabuto, could go help Naruto to skrew Madara.

[benelori]

The theory, or most of it, begins from the premise that Naruto is or will act in an arrogant way...but he hasn't shown signs of this...and I don't think Naruto's confidence that followed him throughout the manga will transform into arrogance...
And this single element somehow reinforce my theory, that Naruto won't lose Kyuubi...

[Quantized]

The bang over the eyes thing was to make the reader wonder which of Nagato and Yahiko would become Pain, and so Jiraiya wouldn't know before the death of the iwanin.

Edit: "Fair point about the illusion, Naruto would need a way out of it."

Maybe Itachi or Nagato could get out of the illusion and their master, Kabuto, could go help Naruto to skrew Madara.

Certainly would be interesting if Kabuto could get out and even went temporarily to Naruto's side or even if Itachi or Nagato gave hints to Naruto, I like that path! :amuse

Raises the question though, if normal release techniques will even work against the eye if the moon plan? Perhaps as soon you dispell it, you re-enter because it's re-cast through the moon? Thats a scary thought :blink



The theory, or most of it, begins from the premise that Naruto is or will act in an arrogant way...but he hasn't shown signs of this...and I don't think Naruto's confidence that followed him throughout the manga will transform into arrogance...
And this single element somehow reinforce my theory, that Naruto won't lose Kyuubi...

By getting offended by what I wrote you quite missed the whole point about what I was trying to say :blink I did say in the start of the post, this is only a discussion & peace etc" and that it's only my thoughts, in the end, so please keep it civil! :p

Quite frankly, yes, I did try to push some boundaries by downing Naruto in such a hard words, this is pretty much to remove prejudge, but I guess it also goes the opposite effect.

In all honestly though, yes, Naruto is on his high horse, you really can't deny that, whatever way you look on it, his full of him self right now.
You may still love him for who he is, ofc, and this is only a temporary growth of him.
In all stories you see charecrers develope, (I sure hope so, for the stories sake).

There is the arrogant confidence.
There is the humble confidence.

How many times didn't he tell off his elders now, "breaking them off telling them he knows".
Thats just one example. Sure, Naruto had the "good" & "humble" confidence through out the story, but ever since Jiraiya died, he changed slowly towards the arrogant.
Take the word with a grant of salt, arrogant is a strong word, I do by no means say that Naruto is completely arrogant, just that his on his high horse.

No offense to your openion, I just don't agree.

[Gingitsune]

Arrogant may not be the right word, but it seems he has a messiah complexe since the Pain arc. Well, his fellow villagers didn't help, they were powerless against Pain and are powerless against Madara, Naruto is more efficent than them individually or collectively against goodlike foes. ^^;

Well, he hasn't started to call himself god yet, like Nagato before him, but I'd like to see him a bit more humble about his cosmic role. His "I'm the savior" lines are rather taseless, I'd prefer a "I don't know if I am the savior or not, but I know I can do this" or "I can't let my parents down, they sacrifed so much, I have to make the much of what they left me".

[Quantized]

Arrogant may not be the right word, but it seems he has a messiah complexe since the Pain arc. Well, his fellow villagers didn't help, they were powerless against Pain and are powerless against Madara, Naruto is more efficent than them individually or collectively against goodlike foes. ^^;

Well, he hasn't started to call himself god yet, like Nagato before him, but I'd like to see him a bit more humble about his cosmic role. His "I'm the savior" lines are rather taseless, I'd prefer a "I don't know if I am the savior or not, but I know I can do this" or "I can't let my parents down, they sacrifed so much, I have to make the much of what they left me".

The blessing about forums, you learn something new everyday :amuse
Indeed it is a very misunderstandable word, and it creates strong feelings in people when mentioned, thus it strays off the path of objectiveness and becomes subjective, I really need to pick up on the weight of words I use..

Agreed about the situations you point out, in particular where Naruto talks about his parents, it was abit too.. don't know the right word.. preaching? Not the best word either.. messiah complexe is quite fitting though, I even laughed from such a gloomy manga detail :p

If we shave away the Rinnegan part (assuming you're born with the eyes activated), and Naruto still looses the Kyuubi, it gives room for another base theory.. I wonder, what Kishi will use to put Naruto straight again, if it really will be loosing the Kyuubi that will do the trick or something else... But what would that be? Loosing to Sasuke? =/

[benelori]

By getting offended by what I wrote you quite missed the whole point about what I was trying to say :blink I did say in the start of the post, this is only a discussion & peace etc" and that it's only my thoughts, in the end, so please keep it civil! :p

How did you manage to conclude that I was offended?:XD
And I'm a green of this section...I promote discussion and peace, so no worres:p


Quite frankly, yes, I did try to push some boundaries by downing Naruto in such a hard words, this is pretty much to remove prejudge, but I guess it also goes the opposite effect.

In all honestly though, yes, Naruto is on his high horse, you really can't deny that, whatever way you look on it, his full of him self right now.
You may still love him for who he is, ofc, and this is only a temporary growth of him.
In all stories you see charecrers develope, (I sure hope so, for the stories sake).

There is the arrogant confidence.
There is the humble confidence.

How many times didn't he tell off his elders now, "breaking them off telling them he knows".
Thats just one example. Sure, Naruto had the "good" & "humble" confidence through out the story, but ever since Jiraiya died, he changed slowly towards the arrogant.
Take the word with a grant of salt, arrogant is a strong word, I do by no means say that Naruto is completely arrogant, just that his on his high horse.

No offense to your openion, I just don't agree.

Then instead of arrogance, maybe over-confident is a better word...what you identified as humble confidence is kinda same with the arrogant confidence, at least IMO...because throughout the entire story Naruto did do stuff alone, or tried to do them alone, despite warnings...but you identified the turning point quite well...after the death of Jiraiya...from that moment after, his power was actually backing up his confidence...

I would like to ask you where did you see Naruto showing signs of arrogant confidence, or shortly arrogance?

Because IMO the only thing that has changed is his power level, which kinda backs up his confidence...of course noting that in the process he received information about what was happening in the world, and some sort of closure as well

[Quantized]

How did you manage to conclude that I was offended?:XD
And I'm a green of this section...I promote discussion and peace, so no worres:p


lol, then we're cool :amuse im not that worried that you're green, you're just as much human (meant in a good way), but it's nice that it only was a missunderstanding :amuse
International communities tend to be like that, full of misunderstandings, anyway :p
I agree I have to weight my words better though, but we learn through our whole life, so thats an area im gonna try improve heavily on.

About the arrogance thingy, this is abit complicated, but i'll try to explain why I say like I do.. especially considered my culture, let me rephrase that with a link, it's a scandinavian thing (Norway, Denmark, Sweden etc) that not all of us agree on, but many ppl here actually live by that ideal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law
Scroll down to the Headline Definition.

Now don't get me wrong, I really don't agree to this idealism, at all.
But I don't like the extream opposite either, i'd like to call the golden middleway the right one. If you're not trusting your self, and belive you are something, then you wont progress in life and you wont be happy. But on the other hand, if you belive too much in your self and you show it off to your suroundings, then you're starting to become, abit "tasteless", "arrogant" or whatever word that may be fitting to it..

Some cultures think it's oki to belive so much in your self that you're practically boasting, while others are the direct opposite, like here in Scandinavia, neither is good.
I fight the Jantelaw, I don't like it, but I don't like the direct opposite either.

A golden middle way, you should belive in your self, but show it in a humbling way to your suroundings so you're not boasting, while still keeping a strong self belief.
If you're worth anything, let others tell you, don't tell others.

It's a tricky thing, to maintain the belief that all humans are equal worth, yet, that you also should be beliving your self, thus, making your self more worth. It's damn hard to balance.

In Naruto you see a change, as a kid he was full of energi, it's natural that he can't sit still, he was always on his move and coulnd't sit and study.. However he also strongly belive in him self, but by no means was it arrogant, because, he didn't boast about it, Naruto was much closer to the middle way back then, even if he sometimes lacked the confidence.

When Jiraiya died, he changed, something happend to him... In my openion it's because of 2 things;

Naruto lost his only living family he had experienced (not by blood), Jiraiya was like a granddad to him, maybe even fatherish. When he died, Naruto who should be full of love and not hate beeing related to Senju and all, got filled with "hate".
He almost killed Pain, but in large he had control over him self, yet, something changed.
His heart might have gotten a serious wound, that wont heal anytime soon.

He got alot of power, it's known in our world as well, if you sudden raise to power, you loose earth connection and belive you can fly, thereby, become arrogant and boasting.


Intel on boasting;
–verb (used without object)
1.
to speak with exaggeration and excessive pride, especially about oneself.
2.
to speak with pride (often followed by of ): He boasted of his family's wealth.


What I think happend, is the overjoy of getting back love, he meet his mom and dad and talked to them, together with getting alot of power, while also having the respondsibility that no one on earth can handle, his the saviour of the world.

It's amazing Naruto issn't more boasting, he has a pure heart if you compare to the human in general. But no one can be that truely pure, his bound to be abit arrogant after all that happend to him. His closing up his heart, which btw, I think will be why he might loose to Sasuke, the wounds are deep. He cant save others if his not pure enough. Im not trying to contradict my self, what I mean is, nothing is 100% pure, but Naruto is hurt right now, still, and therefore his heart issnt close to be pure enough, to actually convert someone else. Pure might be a bad word, try not to misunderstand what I mean :)

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/544/4
I'd say this is at the limit between boasting and balanced, his doing it to get acces and to get past Raikage, but his talking in a rather almighty way, which could be considering boasting. It's not an extream case, but then again, never said Naruto was exteamly boasting, I did pick a bad word "arrogant".
If Naruto has to save the world and Sasuke, I belive he needs his pure heart back undamaged.
Of cours you can see the picture as overjoy of his newfound love, but even then, I woulnd't agree with Kiski portraying the frames the way he did and some of the word picks...

If Naruto is suposed to be loved by all nationalities, he should remain balanced, not boasting, and not act as someone whos not worth anything, balanced. Since it's where the whole world meet, and can agree to some extinct.


http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/545/9
Both before and after the page I link you see sign of boasting, while I agree it's a difficult thing to balance when you truely are the world saviour, but at the very least, Naruto is been portrayed in a poor way, or, if Kishi is actually doing this on purpose, which is what part of my theory was based on.
It's really hard to nail down directly, it's a combinatiuon of frames and words.
Nevertheless, true, translations are a BIG problem, it may sound very differently in Japanese.
Page 9, in the mid, of chapter 545 that I linked earlier, you see that he says "No matter what, I'll defeat Madara" and "We can always talk later" afterwards, basically ignoring his very clever and intelligent elder. His pushing him off as his warning is nothing.
This is arrogance, to some degree, if you experience it in real life, you will recognice it in the story.. But you may also not see it, and just enjoy the chapter, which btw, I find good, because it's not nice to see Naruto that way...

Page 10, same chapter link, you see "Actually, thats a good thing to know", it's like saying, all you said ealier was crap, now you're finally saying something. It's because of the "actually".. I have read 2 translations, in the other he says "well, ATLEAST thats some good news", same arrogance, said in 2 different ways.
It may be that it's just 2 bad translations, but it's very likely that Naruto is crossing his pure heart.
However it may also be by purpose by Kishi...


As a perfect example of boasting, im not perfect my self, just writing the OP and this thread in my pick of words, is leaning towards the "boasting" rather than balanced becuase I write so direct as I do, that it almost seems like im saying "this is fact" rather than my intended, "this is my openion".
Im not happy about it, another thing to improve through life.. Not to step on other peoples feets the way you write.

Really sorry about this rather huge post, but atleast I have explained my self, hope it wassnt annoying to get through :)

There are alot of people who manage to be balanced, I got much respect for thoes <3 :glomp

[Jammin]

@Cez
I find your theory very interesting. I'm not sure i actually believe it will happen but i like your ideas a lot. If the plot movde in an unexpected direction like that i would be thrilled.

Seeing Naruto lose everything like you suggest would take me completely by surprise(in a good way).

I also agree with you about Naruto's recent attitude, i'm not sure how to phrase it correctly but it seems....unwise. He's acting like he has all the answers before he even hears the questions. Since he has embraced the idea that he is the savior of the shinobi world, he has often greeting problems with an "i know what i'm doing attitude" which is hard for me to see as wise.

I honestly think this is just how Kishimoto has decided to write him as an all-knowing all-powerful champion in his haste to end the series but if i'm wrong, and this is just the pride the comes before the fall, i'd be stunned, impressed, and pleased.

-------------------------------

I think if the kyuubi got taken from Naruto. This series could be reinvigorated like never before.

[Quantized]

@Cez
I find your theory very interesting. I'm not sure i actually believe it will happen but i like your ideas a lot. If the plot movde in an unexpected direction like that i would be thrilled.

Seeing Naruto lose everything like you suggest would take me completely by surprise(in a good way).

I also agree with you about Naruto's recent attitude, i'm not sure how to phrase it correctly but it seems....unwise. He's acting like he has all the answers before he even hears the questions. Since he has embraced the idea that he is the savior of the shinobi world, he has often greeting problems with an "i know what i'm doing attitude" which is hard for me to see as wise.

I honestly think this is just how Kishimoto has decided to write him as an all-knowing all-powerful champion in his haste to end the series but if i'm wrong, and this is just the pride the comes before the fall, i'd be stunned, impressed, and pleased.

-------------------------------

I think if the kyuubi got taken from Naruto. This series could be reinvigorated like never before.

Cheers :) I too don't belive it will happend anymore though, as Gingitsune pointed out, Rinnegan seemingly is a ability you're born with.. :darn Unless Madara did awaken them in him early and thus why he claims it was his eyes? :blink

Indeed if he lost the Kyuubi, then Naruto won't end in a "rushed" way of feeling.. Opens up alot of unpredictable possible plot posibilities :headscratch

Im with you, don't want to see Naruto end the way it is heading right now either :)
If just something like loosing the Kyuubi happend, then i'd be pleased, "nearly" no matter what happends next :)

[ashher]

I don't really felt arrogance from naruto, and i really don't like the idea of naruto gaining rinnegan. But except for them, the basic ideas of yours - a failed naruto, a dystopian ninja world...these seems really appealing. But i wouldn't bet on this to happen. This is a shonen after all.

[Brill]

Well Naruto is a proud failure and he brims with confidence even when the situation is not in his favor. However, I don't see Naruto as a tragic character awaiting his fall from grace. Will the Kyuubi be removed? Hopefully it will, and Madara will form a full Jyuubi not one made from a tentacle and some Kyuubi gut. The remaining question is how Naruto can survive the ordeal. Well it's 1/2 a Kyuubi not a full one, and with people like Sakura and Tsunade you can heal yourself out of any scenario if you wanted and make it sound reasonable. So the next question is can Naruto now at his "normal" form be a match for a godlike Madara. The answer is yes. We've seen if before, we can see it again. We don't need to strip Naruto of his godlike Kyuubi powers just to reinflate him with deus ex machina Rinnegan powers because we want a collosal battle of epic perportions. You can do David and Golliath or battle of Achilles. There are plenty of ways to topple a villian at the zenith of their power within grasp of complete domination, just to strike them down as the bitches they are. What? You thought Naruto was going to lose the final battle? Naruto will get his face on that wall. He may not get the title of Hokage after the ending of the 4th Ninja War but he will be known as the man who saved the world from Madara's plan.

[gnut]

off topic...there may be a place for sasuke in your theory.remember naruto warned him that if they fought...they would both die.so in turn...how did naruto see this if in fact it is not going to happen?naruto isn't a psychic...but i think his character has always been intuitive towards other characters.kishi-san has done this time and time again...haku,neji,gaara and so on.that promise/prediction to sasuke is a definite clue to them meeting in a showdown.so what ever happens in the next few chapters...even if he loses the kyuubi...sasuke is determined to attack konoha.so game on!
good theory though.sure i could write more but i,m cooking dinner...u guys will have kids one day 2...lol

[ninjabot]

I think the only thing that could abolish my distaste for Naruto's character is if he loses the Kyuubi... and I was always hoping he would for a couple reasons, and I think that the setup of the war, the Moon's Eye plan, and Naruto's current abilities give logical enough reason for him to lose the Kyuubi.

1: Sage Mode. It's a perfect replacement for a bijuu in that it actually has downsides AND gives him all the abilities of his Kyuubi shroud save for regeneration. Increased speed, strength, stronger jutsu, and boosted durability. Even better, anything he pulls off would be thanks to power that didn't come from a beast made of pure hatred. Kinda defeats his message if he's spreading peace by using a hate-monster's chakra to do so.

2: Sense of desparation. So far there has been no true sense of dread throughout the war. Until Madara becomes dangerously close to succeeding with his plan, there won't be. Meaning that Bee HAS to die, and Naruto HAS to lose the Kyuubi, granting Madara status as the new Jyuubi Jinchuuriki and throwing everyone on the battlefield into a sense of despair. Defeating Madara without him being the clear and present most powerful ninja ever won't make for a good ending IMO, and with Naruto handicapped with only Sage Mode and Itachi's power, it gives Sasuke reason to help him out... or die trying.

[gnut]

all arguments aside...i don't think naruto is arrogant as much as he is loyal to his comrades and country.how would any of you feel if there was a war being fought over you...all your family is involved and getting wiped out.of course you would want to fight on your own behalf...so his decision is no different than the one i would make or you would make.it has nothing to do with arrogance...it's only right for him to get involved.
how can you ask anyone to die for you if you aren't willing to die yourself for what you preach/believe in?

[benelori]

2: Sense of desparation. So far there has been no true sense of dread throughout the war. Until Madara becomes dangerously close to succeeding with his plan, there won't be. Meaning that Bee HAS to die, and Naruto HAS to lose the Kyuubi, granting Madara status as the new Jyuubi Jinchuuriki and throwing everyone on the battlefield into a sense of despair. Defeating Madara without him being the clear and present most powerful ninja ever won't make for a good ending IMO, and with Naruto handicapped with only Sage Mode and Itachi's power, it gives Sasuke reason to help him out... or die trying.

I agree with this second point...but only because of the desperation you mentioned...the only time we got anything remotely close to this, was when Madara appeared with GM on the field...and that was awesome...if something similar would be achieved would be great...

On a side note I don't really like the possibility of Naruto losing Kyuubi for various reasons...but I am willing to somewhat agree with this being good if it is done for that purpose

[NAM61]

naruto is not acting arrogant so that messes up your theory. when naruto fights he is serious and is never over confident, or arrogant. it would be out of character when he fights he is a smart fighter ho comes up with many different strategy's to win. right now he knows he is the only one who can stop madara and i doubt he would lose the kyuubi since minatos sacrifice would have been for nothing. the kyuubi will play a huge role in defeating madara. so what kushina and minato did for him would have been a waste if he lost the kyuubi. i think madara will just use kin and gin for the kyuubi. so there is no way naruto will lose the kyuubi he will be the last jin alive in the manga. what would have been the point of minato putting the kyuubi in him.



I think the only thing that could abolish my distaste for Naruto's character is if he loses the Kyuubi... and I was always hoping he would for a couple reasons, and I think that the setup of the war, the Moon's Eye plan, and Naruto's current abilities give logical enough reason for him to lose the Kyuubi.

1: Sage Mode. It's a perfect replacement for a bijuu in that it actually has downsides AND gives him all the abilities of his Kyuubi shroud save for regeneration. Increased speed, strength, stronger jutsu, and boosted durability. Even better, anything he pulls off would be thanks to power that didn't come from a beast made of pure hatred. Kinda defeats his message if he's spreading peace by using a hate-monster's chakra to do so.

2: Sense of desparation. So far there has been no true sense of dread throughout the war. Until Madara becomes dangerously close to succeeding with his plan, there won't be. Meaning that Bee HAS to die, and Naruto HAS to lose the Kyuubi, granting Madara status as the new Jyuubi Jinchuuriki and throwing everyone on the battlefield into a sense of despair. Defeating Madara without him being the clear and present most powerful ninja ever won't make for a good ending IMO, and with Naruto handicapped with only Sage Mode and Itachi's power, it gives Sasuke reason to help him out... or die trying.


also i doubt sasuke will help naruto vs madara he will finish him off on his own. madara and naruto have been made as opposites madara the darkness and naruto the light. i think sasuke will still be evil when madara falls. plus i think naruto will mix sage mode and this RM to a new form. we already saw a hint vs pain. so he will not lose the kyuubi. it would make minatos death pointless.

[Naruto_Rasengan]

I don't have any doubt Naruto will lose Kyuubi, but I don't think he will gain Rinnegan. Rather I believe he will meet an Uzumaki, an elder, who will pass everything onto him. Thus the rebirth of the fearsome Uzumaki Fuuinjutsu.

There are a few reasons I think this will happen, one is because I believe it was Madara who was behind the destruction of Uzushiogakure. The other is Naruto's recent recognition of only being able to defeat Edo Tensei via Fuuinjutsu and at some point he is going to have to seal the Juubi. For this he will need extremely powerful Fuuinjutsu, the kind his mother and father knew.

Let's not forget that members of the Uzumaki clan possess incredible longevity. One example of this is Uzumaki Mito who was still alive during Hiruzen's reign as Hokage.

[Liof]

I still don't think he'll lose QB, the kingin brothers were there for a purpose

[Quantized]

Really a lot of good points and constructive criticism, cheers :)


naruto is not acting arrogant so that messes up your theory. when naruto fights he is serious and is never over confident, or arrogant. it would be out of character when he fights he is a smart fighter ho comes up with many different strategy's to win. right now he knows he is the only one who can stop madara and i doubt he would lose the kyuubi since minatos sacrifice would have been for nothing. the kyuubi will play a huge role in defeating madara. so what kushina and minato did for him would have been a waste if he lost the kyuubi. i think madara will just use kin and gin for the kyuubi. so there is no way naruto will lose the kyuubi he will be the last jin alive in the manga. what would have been the point of minato putting the kyuubi in him.





also i doubt sasuke will help naruto vs madara he will finish him off on his own. madara and naruto have been made as opposites madara the darkness and naruto the light. i think sasuke will still be evil when madara falls. plus i think naruto will mix sage mode and this RM to a new form. we already saw a hint vs pain. so he will not lose the kyuubi. it would make minatos death pointless.

I doubt you read my other post about arrogance, since you say the opposite of what I meant by the word.. Granted, it was a huge post :-_-

When you hear the word arrogant, you can easily misinterpret the message sended, because arrogance can be understood in more ways, yet still similar in it's meaning, though not quite.

What I mean by this, is the way Naruto is being portrayed by Kishi.

Yet another example is;
Bee is supposed to be superior (sensei if you like), Naruto doesn't respect Bee as his sensei, and talks like a street boy in a rough environment, bossing Bee around where being arrogant is essential for surviving. The problem is, Naruto is no street boy, he didn't grow up like that, it was different.
Almost as if it wants to make a uproar against Japanese's view on society? O.o but that's another take on the issue...

Don't forget that Naruto has not been showing any "good" moments with his friends since Jiraiya died. Naruto has grown lonely, withdrawn into him self, and thereby arrogant as well through his sense of responsibility.

What I try to say is, Naruto is not the same any more since Jiraiya died.. Either Kishi f****ed up, or Naruto is undergoing a change once again preparing for the final Naruto, character development.

Call it whatever you want, but Naruto is not showing prober etiquette right now.

It also reflects in that everything is focusses on "the second characters" and "the main character" but the two don't mix anymore, plot vice, it's almost as if Kishi wants to do this intentionally, for whatever reason it may be in the big picture.
For example a flawed Naruto, finding his path back to his old "personal" self through his nakama.

It's my take on it, I enjoy constructive criticism, so disagree all you want :p just not that it feels like you read the following post's in the thread about understanding the word arrogant.

I agree with you that it won't add up Naruto getting Rinnegan this way, (if he had to), but in that case, it would still make sense for Kushina and Minato to sacrifice their lifes, although their intentions would fail, they still created the Hero who would save the world through their actions, just not as planned. Yet I agree, it's a bit flawed, but so is all the foreshadowing telling Naruto will loose the Kyuubi, which will it be? We probably can't tell at this rate...

Peace :)

---------- Post added at 04:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 AM ----------

On another matter, if Madara achieved the Juubi, i'd love for some different theories on this, how will Naruto fight Madara? Assuming he does not get the Rinnegan, or even, if he did afterall?

What are your ideas? Please share :)