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Fox666
July 01, 2011, 03:40 PM
I find interesting that the manga gives some tips on how measure someone's Nem. And Knuckle's Hakoware ability provided some direct numerical figures for someone's Nem.

Gon (fighting Knuckle): approximately 21,500
Morel: 70,000
Yupi (before evolving): over 700,000


Also there is the radius of someone's nem, which Nobunaga states (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v11/c094/11.html) that the masters of En can spread their it to 50 meters.

Nobunaga: 4 meters
Pitou: 2 kilometers
Also, compare Neferpitou irregular nem in this page (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v25/c267/11.html) with the radius of Meryem after he revived here (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/hunter_x_hunter/v28/c308/13.html).

Going by Nobunaga description, some users have a better control of En than others. So I suppose that it doesn't necessarily means that Neferpitou Nem is 500 greater than Nobunaga. However based on the measuring of Knuckle's ability, it is still an acceptable difference (for example, you can speculate that Nogunaga Nem is 30,000 while Neferpitou is 1,500,000).

NoFreakingWay
July 06, 2011, 03:11 AM
Pitou's Nen is indeed larger than Nobunaga's. It's Pitou's sheer amount of nen that enables her to become an extremely frightening opponent. If you think about it Pitou's barely, what, three months old? And with that amount of time even Netero himself thought Pitou is stronger than him. And we all know how long it took Netero to get that amount of Nen.

The Nen-user's En size is not a good basis for Actual and Potential Aura Power (for most human Nen-users) because En and the other sub-techniques of Nen are dependent on the individual's need. Nobunaga's fighting style doesn't need his En to extend that far away from him, because he uses it to slash his opponents afterwards. Also remember how Pufu's modest En blew Novu's mind. In Pitou's case, her protective nature and her role as Royal Guard made it so that she, with the help of her immense AOP/POP, has that great En range, for detecting enemies trying to kill the King.

The actual extent of their En is dependent on AOP and training. So while Nobunaga (and Zeno) has years of training under his belt he can only extend his En to that distance.

So for Nobunaga, that En extent is perfect for his power level and his personality/ fighting style.

The Royal Guards and Meryem are special cases since they all have a lot of Nen to spare. They will change, enhance or create skills at will because of their craploads of Nen. They'll remind you of a certain Ninja from another manga.

kkck
July 06, 2011, 08:46 AM
To be honest I would speculate that nobunaga's en is a little higher. Gon was said to have the nen of a mid level nen user a while back so I would think a ryodan member is a bit above that. I would think a ryodan fighting nen user would have the amount of nen someone like murao does.

Now, using nen is more about skill than it is about the amount of it, that much has been seen repeatedly through the manga. Lets take gon for example. He was said to have the nen of a mid level hunter but does that mean gon would actually be a match for a mid level hunter in that context? God no, even if he does have that sheer amount of nen there are still a million things wrong with it. His control over it is overall poor, his techniques are a bit slow and the way his nen moves around his body is so awkward that his moves are easily predictable. It is true that the size of en is directly limited by the amount of nen you have but in turn the skill you have with it depends on how much you trained it. In that regard you could easily have someone with much more nen than someone but in turn not be able to use a much larger en. Netero is a perfect example of how training can make a difference even when the enemy has much more nen than you. He was able to blow away a royal guard with more nen than himself and kept the king at bay even though the king obviously had much more nen than himself to begin with.

zelllogan
July 07, 2011, 11:57 AM
I expect any member of genei ryodan to have a nen much higher than than. At least 50000 for the weakest members (such as Scharnalk without auto-mode) ... and maybe Nen close to 400000 - 500000 for the strongest members ... maybe even higher.

But, it's just a guess and there is no way to know for sure ... Those NEN numbers are part of the problem. Kimera ants are way too overpowered & I never could accept that.

NB: Don't know why but ... I want to eat nems right now

Fox666
July 07, 2011, 01:42 PM
Well, apparently the Royal Guard are a very special case and completely overpower (to the point they are a world thread just because of their Nem size). So I wouldn't expect anybody from the Ryodan to have much more than Morel.

NoFreakingWay
July 07, 2011, 09:50 PM
All you've said is applicable only for nen-users below this group that we've seen so far:

Meryem
Uber Gon
Royal Guards.

Mind that there is a huge gap of power separating them from the next strongest guy (Netero, so far).

Just remember that one scene in which Novu was turned mad just by seeing Pufu's En. And Novu is a guy who is near Netero's level.

And remember how Yupi overcame a group of guys who had tons of experience and skill (Morau, Knuckle, Shoot, Killua, Meleoron).

The guys in that bunch are in such a level that years of experience and wisdom doesn't matter anymore. They really can't be compared to the Ryodan, who, despite being very powerful people, would not probably be in the same league as Netero, Zeno, or Silva, individually. Perhaps they could put up a fight when they gang up on one Royal Guard, though.

Unless you can come up with an ability like Kurapika's that will make you super effective against these guys, it really doesn't matter to these guys anymore. They'll blow up crap with their bucketloads of Nen.

Let's leave the people in that group out of discussions about nen skill and strategy since they were always about sheer power.

kkck
July 08, 2011, 12:44 PM
I don't think novu ever was anywhere near netero's level. Netero was being kind as noted by murao, netero is still far stronger than either of them. Heck, netero held back and hurt the king quite a bit with his nen while the rest could barely stand against the royal guard. Netero is on an entirely different level from them in terms of amount of nen and ability with it.

konfuzed
July 09, 2011, 06:34 AM
Yeah, palace raid netero in particular would have absolutely wiped the floor with Morau and Novu from that period. But between him making that comment and the raid, Netero shook off a lot of rust with his intense training, Morau went down to 35% of his max power, and Novu was so mentally broken he could barely function, so it's not like his reality-busting nen ability did him much good at that point. So at the time of the comment it wasn't nearly as large a gap as when the important battles took place. It's not like Netero knew how Novu would break down from witnessing off-the-charts raw power or how Morau would be reduced to hardly more than a third of his typical strength from overextending himself.

But that's what made Netero truly a cut above them all along. I don't think he would mentally break like Novu or physically break like Morau even if he had to face their circumstances. He was the perfect warrior in body and mind, polished in every way.

NoFreakingWay
July 09, 2011, 10:25 PM
If Netero was at his prime, Novu would nowhere be on his level, for sure. Novu and Morau just looks weak in comparison because they don't have flashy techniques that are designed to deliver a shipment of pain (however it's possible Novu can defeat Meryem if his waypoint-closure decapitation technique would ignore nen defense). Nen-amount wise, in Netero's latest incarnation, they might have been close. Morau has been spamming non-sentient and semi-sentient nen-smoke for so long and who knows how much Nen is needed to maintain the Hide and Seek waypoints and mansion. Surely they both have massive nen-amounts near to what Netero in his latest living state was.

Besides, if Netero factored in discipline and experience he would never have said that Pitou is stronger than him, since we all know Pitou is just a noob that was given so much power. Therefore when Netero says Novu and Morau are about as strong as him he should mean their amount of nen is close to his at that point.

But since Netero has trained so much he's able to summon a lot of nen at once in one move. That's basically what Nen-training does, as we all know, so that you can pull up a lot of Nen in a single move effortlessly.

We never talked about discipline here so I don't know why that was brought up in the first place. We are talking amount of nen here.

Even when you factor in discipline and experience in a thread about making ballpark estimates about AOP/POP, how did they fare against Meryem's?

That's right, they didn't matter much. Though it took the King some time (30 or so minutes?) to prevail.

Off-topic: Sure, Netero's mind didn't break when he faced Meryem. However we must realize that Meryem did not move towards overwhelming the valiant grandmaster. Meryem could've just, you know, bulldozed his way through and make a Pufu impression by driving Netero to insanity by just showing off his aura.

Fox666
July 10, 2011, 03:10 AM
Well, Morel's amount of Nem was provided in the manga, and it is 70,000. Netero, on the other hand, when he showed his Nem to Colt it was clear his nem is somewhat closer to that of the Royal Guard (which in Yupi case his Nem is much higher than 700,000).

So as far the manga is now, the hierarchy of Nem amount is this:

- Meryem after ressurrection
|
|
|
- Meryem
- Royal Guard
- Netero
|
|
|
- Morel and Knov
|
- Knuckle and Shoot
- Gon and Killua

Also Pitou mention Gon would be a threat to Meryem after he transformed. However his placement is still unknow.

NoFreakingWay
July 10, 2011, 10:29 PM
Morau had ~70,000 but his maximum amount is close to Netero's because he's well below his best condition. I thought that was obvious. He's easily around 100,000 and above.

Netero can't be that near the Royal Guards in terms of amount of nen. He wasn't even able to hurt Pitou (Pitou just got flung far away) which would probably be the Royal Guard with the lowest maximum amount of nen because he's the first to emerge and therefore the RG to have received the least amount of nourishment.

Zero damaged Meryem decently because it pours all of Netero's nen into that single blast. So it would inflict decent damage if he had 30,000 units left. And I don't believe Meryem 1's Ken is good enough to defend against that to not gain damage.

The tiers should be:

Meryem 2
|
Uber Gon
|
|
Yupi
Pufu
Pitou
|
|
Netero
|
Zeno
|
Morau and Novu
|
|
Knuckle and Shoot
|
Gon and Killua

That's strictly based on amount of nen. And I'm being generous with the gaps.

In that tier placement I think Uber Gon is good enough to fight Meryem 2 and have a decent chance of winning, nen-amount wise. If we consider Meryem 1 (pre-Rose Meryem), Uber Gon would probably be as strong.

kkck
July 10, 2011, 10:45 PM
I don't think the 70000 was murao's nen during the battle but rather his usual maximun. I still don't get the impression Murao was anywhere near netero as far as amount of nen goes. Netero probably does not compare all that well to the royal guard either IMO as that ant pointed out netero's nen would not allow him to even get past the guards. In that regard expecting netero to have anywhere near 700000 nen is a bit too much. What netero had that no one else in the arc has shown so far is a nen so overwhelmingly polished that his sheer speed is enough to blow away a royal guard easily. Netero did that fairly casually and when he did fight the king seriously he was stated to have hit the guy hundreds of thousands of times which I don't think would be possible with a measly 70000 nen even if that polished.

zelllogan
July 11, 2011, 06:28 AM
If internet was as huge 20 years ago, the same conversation would have been possible during Namek Arc in Dragon Ball Z ...

NoFreakingWay
July 12, 2011, 12:29 AM
It's not like the Hyakushiki Kannon had no "drawback" so to speak when casting it. Hyakushiki Kannon is just like Jajanken in that there are some preparatory stances Netero had to go through before he's able to unleash the actual attack. This preparatory stance enhances the attack strength, as in the "risky" stances and shouts Gon makes before releasing either Guu, Paa or Chii. Meryem, as he is still a nen noob, does not understand why Netero had to do these stances. He saw this as a risky and probably stupid gesture when involved in a high-speed battle of life and death. For Netero, it allows him to express his gratitude to martials arts. This makes him more psyched about the attack and therefore his attack comes out more powerful. We all have seen the increase in strength of Gon's nen when he completes his phase of stances and shouts. This has been grasped by Knuckle and Morau, respectively. This will be the case with Netero's string of gestures. Therefore Netero does not really need a huge amount of aura to inflict a lot of damage because of this aura-enhancing string of gestures that is independent from the user's Aura amount. It's like a damage multiplier one gets when one puts restrictions and conditions on one's Nen ability, as in Kurapika's, however this one is less desperate and took the longer route as it went through a long process of training and perfection. We also need to consider that Nen is dependent on the user's psyche. Netero was in a state of pure concentration and total bloodlust in his fight against Meryem and that is a good cause as to why his Nen amount probably got a boost. It's a decent excuse for the age-old manga/anime cliche that characters gain a sudden increase in power in battle, however this is subtly explained by Togashi, therefore we cannot dismiss this as "ass-pull powerup" mentioned by a lot of disgruntled yet unenlightened HxH readers in this current arc.

It's just that since Netero has trained himself to the point that his gesture phase and actual attack launch is faster than the speed of sound, that there's actually no risk against most enemies. However the risk factor amped up against Meryem and therefore the damage multiplier racked up as well.

Therefore Netero does not need 10,000,000+ Nen to launch hundreds of thousands of Kannonslaps during his battle with Meryem.

There's also another theoretical explanation why Netero does not need more than 100,000 nen to inflict huge damages on an opponent. Let's say the actual Kannon statue costs 50,000 Nen to create and all or some (realistically a small portion) of the nen used to create it is translated to damage on a single attack. However Netero would have to go through the gestures to materialize it (its already there however its not materialized) and attack. So he just creates the statue once, set it aside while "out of the playing field", and summons it for free by doing those gestures. So he could have the rest of his nen consumed with the other nen applications (like Ken).

In short, in this explanation, there's no summoning maintenance cost unlike Ken which needs continual (?) nen expenditure to keep running; it's a cast-once statue summoned by a no-cost string of gestures that actually boost its speed and attack strength (as explained above).

The explanation in the paragraph just above this one could be expressed in Magic The Gathering rules, but I'm just interested in the card art so I really don't know the rules and I don't know how I could express it.