Naruto Tournament Discussion Thread V.2

[juUnior]

Previous fghts of top tier:
- Ji-man vs Kakashi - no hard feelings, I didn't vote because I thought either of them could win, hyhy ^^
- NARUTO CURBSTOMPS FREAKIN' HASHIRAMA - HELLLLLL YEAHHHHH!!!!!!! XDXDXDXDXDXD

Newest fights:
- Tobi vs Itachi and Minato vs Nagato will have some nice discussion going on methinks <3

[mattiaildivino]

jiraiya and naruto have won,as I expected. now the most awaited matches,even if tobi itachi is a bit strange(as every match of tobi),Minato VS nagato is the best of ever. the fight everyone would have liked to see in the manga.

[xXan]

God i hope Madara wins so i can see a Madara vs Nagato. That would be cool. Also the best fight we could see in the finals is Naruto vs Nagato. Aside from that its a sure win for Naruto.

[En Yang Ji]

Madara vs Nagato would be cool. I was kind of hoping for Minato vs Itachi.

[mattiaildivino]

anyway it was said that in the next chapters nagato and itachi will go to naruto and Bee,they might explain something of their abilities.

[xXan]

anyway it was said that in the next chapters nagato and itachi will go to naruto and Bee,they might explain something of their abilities.

Where was that said?

[3c]

It was in the preview of the latest WSJ magazine. There's always short previews at the end of the magazine for all the mangas, it's a selling trick to get readers hyped for the next release so that they will buy them. Often the previews don't happen as "promised", either never or they happen "later" when they don't happen in the next issue. As such don't get your hopes up.

[mattiaildivino]

It was in the preview of the latest WSJ magazine. There's always short previews at the end of the magazine for all the mangas, it's a selling trick to get readers hyped for the next release so that they will buy them. Often the previews don't happen as "promised", either never or they happen "later" when they don't happen in the next issue. As such don't get your hopes up.

exactly,we might see it or something else,but we might not see it. anyway I wait for the chapter before voting,and I hope you do so.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

It's a shame we aren't one chapter ahead so that we could see more of Itachi and Nagato... I know! Hold off the current polls!

[xXan]

It's a shame we aren't one chapter ahead so that we could see more of Itachi and Nagato... I know! Hold off the current polls!

Meh its irrelevant. I can asure you Minato is going to get into the finals no matter what Itachi shows now.

Ps. I know its the next fight lol. The curent fights are going to end with Minato the victor and Itachi (probably). After that is Minato the victor and he goes to the finals. There we are going to have interesting poll results as Naruto and Minato look to have a equal number of fans :P

[DementedKirby]

Lol at all those waiting 'til this chapter came out before seeing how they'd vote in the Minato vs. Nagato and Itachi vs. Madara fights :p.

[jdw]

Minato v. Itachi should be pretty good in terms of debate. I wasn't quite sure who would win between Itachi & Madara.

Two of Konoha's top shinobi get to face off. This should be interesting!

[Delbi]

Yea, the two greatest geniuses in the histroy of Konoha going at it should be intense. IMO this is the most difficult fight so far for me to determine because both characters have such incredible abilities.

[DementedKirby]

If I had to choose between Minato and Itachi... that's like choosing between which two sons of mine get the last cupcake...

If I had to choose, I'd make them tilt over to each other ever so serpentinely, arched just enough so as both of them touch each other's index fingers and get the match up just right in order to... "FUSION!". If that were at all possible, that fusion would be my choice in that fight ;).

'Cause I might as well just flip a coin. It's that hard a decision.

[3c]

Sorry for the short delay, two new matches are up. Between the two Itachi vs Minato is definitely my favorite, the thread should spark some interesting debate.

While I gave it to Madara in the previous fight, I'm kind of glad that it didn't turn into a Minato vs Madara.

[mattiaildivino]

I agree with 3c,I think tobi is stronger than itachi but I like he is out of the tournament.
Delbi I was more worried about the result of minato VS nagato,but here it's obvious minato wins.

[UchihaHunter]

Lol I wanted Tobi out against A, but that didn't work out =/

[DementedKirby]

I know it's not my place, but I think that maybe these two images I made can be used for avatars (resized, of course ;)) for Minato and Itachi:
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9766/minatomotivationaldone.jpg

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/926/itachimotivationaldone.jpg

Enjoy! :p

[UchihaHunter]

Man, he really should've said "That's Hiraishin Level 2, bitch"

Even with how annoyed I'm getting with Minato fanboys, that panel is too freaking epic!

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

And he catches the damn kunai that he just threw! Hahahahaha he just trollololol'd the ultimate troll!

[DementedKirby]

Man, he really should've said "That's Hiraishin Level 2, bitch"

Even with how annoyed I'm getting with Minato fanboys, that panel is too freaking epic!

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 PM ----------

And he catches the damn kunai that he just threw! Hahahahaha he just trollololol'd the ultimate troll!

Roflsengan! I know! Legendarily epic! Minato: "That's Hiraishin Level 2, bitch." and Itachi: "Got anything else, bitch?" Well, actually, the bitch at the end of those sentence is omitted, much like the subject in various imperative sentences ;).

[EMS]

this is fight is going to be epic while itachi is the best genjutsu user so far and undefeeated and saved konoha vs one of the best kages of all the time and he defeated madara and stooped his plan while gaving safety to konoha and put his son thw so much to give naruto this power to defeat madara in the future which make minato one of the best kages of all the time..

[M3J]

Minato vs. Itachi should be awesome. Two of the best Konoha shinobi I've seen so far (minus Kakashi and Jiraiya) against each other. This would be an epic fight in the manga, especially since we haven't fully seen just what Minato and Itachi can do!

Dammit, why not show more of Minato against Tobi or Raikage? :( I think we saw like, 1-10% of what Minato's really capable of, while we saw like, 50-75% of what ITachi was capable of against Sasuke.

[Naruffy]

Minato vs. Itachi should be awesome. Two of the best Konoha shinobi I've seen so far (minus Kakashi and Jiraiya) against each other. This would be an epic fight in the manga, especially since we haven't fully seen just what Minato and Itachi can do!

Dammit, why not show more of Minato against Tobi or Raikage? :( I think we saw like, 1-10% of what Minato's really capable of, while we saw like, 50-75% of what ITachi was capable of against Sasuke.

I agree, It was implied that Minato knows a lot more seals that we haven't seen yet and it'd be great to see Itachi against an opponent he actually wants to kill. It's too bad this will be over before we get to see some more of Minato and the other characters

[tobeulp]

While I don't know how Itachi wins against Madara I guess the Sasuke vs Jiraiya is equal now that Itachi won against Madara...

I wish that Sasuke had won that battle so it would be Itachi vs Minato and Sasuke vs Naruto in the semis...

How many days does semis last I hope that it could be extended until the latest chapter is finish so that we could see how Itachi could handle speedy ninja's like Naruto and Bee

[jdw]

Minato v. Itachi ends July 27, the next chapter should be out the same day.

[juUnior]

Previous fights: no shock here, though Minato devastated Nagato <lurkers powaaaaah! xP> And Itachi won <3

Newest fights: Itachi vs Minato should have epic discussion, and this time I don't even think lurkers will stay on one side, as both characters have great fans.. even if this fight will have proper discussion, the winner will be: who has more fanboys and fangirls! <3
Naruto vs Ji-man - poor Jiraiya, he does not stand a chance :p in any way :p

[mattiaildivino]

Minato v. Itachi ends July 27, the next chapter should be out the same day.

should we wait for the chapter before voting XD ? I doubt itachi can show something to be stronger than minato in the next chapter.

[En Yang Ji]

Doesn't have to be stronger just add to his versatility.

[jdw]

should we wait for the chapter before voting XD ? I doubt itachi can show something to be stronger than minato in the next chapter.

I think people should decide how they want to proceed. Still, waiting for the chapter could lead to a person missing the opportunity to vote (if they are not home when the chapter comes out and the poll ends around the time , etc.).

[EMS]

i haven't vote yet because i want to be 100% sure but in the other hand i voted for naruto.minato is a badass and we know little about his arsenal, i can't imagen if we could have 80% info of minato's jutsu.

[xXan]

The chapter could be all a talk no jutsu lol or Naruto busting out some special tech out of his but:P

I do hope for a fight but knowing Naruto he will use his talk no jutsu.

[EMS]

The chapter could be all a talk no jutsu lol or Naruto busting out some special tech out of his but:P

I do hope for a fight but knowing Naruto he will use his talk no jutsu.

Yes i agree with you, it might be alittle action but they will fight kabuto control and then their souls will be free by naruto talk no jutsu as you said.

[Naruffy]

I'm really surprised that a lot of people are still annoyed by the fact that some matches are being decided merely by fan-base/votes from lurkers. When the structure of the tournament was decided wasn't it known from then that it was a public poll and lots of people would just pop in and vote for who they preferred without really commenting? Even before the tournament when the battle section (whatever it's called) was open it was pretty clear from those polls that even if one side had a much better argument that the other or if one side was completely haxed the more popular character would win. I just think it's kind of pointless to complain about it when it was so obvious from the beginning that this was going to happen.

[mattiaildivino]

I think people should decide how they want to proceed. Still, waiting for the chapter could lead to a person missing the opportunity to vote (if they are not home when the chapter comes out and the poll ends around the time , etc.).

of course,the last day is too risky. anyway I doubt in the next chapter there will be prooves for the winners. Naruto surely owns jiraiya. and itachi might say:" the only personwho would be able to counter my illusions without having sharingan is the 4th hokage minato namikaze" or "I would defeat even the 4th hokage" but I doubt he can says something like this,unless Kishi is in this forum and is voting in the tournament :p

[hakuthehedgehog]

of course,the last day is too risky. anyway I doubt in the next chapter there will be prooves for the winners. Naruto surely owns jiraiya. and itachi might say:" the only personwho would be able to counter my illusions without having sharingan is the 4th hokage minato namikaze" or "I would defeat even the 4th hokage" but I doubt he can says something like this,unless Kishi is in this forum and is voting in the tournament :p

Not something that direct: but Itachi saying: it's difficult for me to put Naruto in a genjutsu thanks to his speed, or him doing it without much of an effort could have an effect on the votes, since both Minato and Itachi should have equal amount of lurkers.

[Prince Sasuke]

Itachi Uchiha will never have the amount of fans/lurkers as Minato. This will not even be close, Minato wins 85% - 15%.

[DementedKirby]

Itachi Uchiha will never have the amount of fans/lurkers as Minato. This will not even be close, Minato wins 85% - 15%.

Why do people complain about a character's fanbase? So what? There's no point. My second favorite character is Itachi and then Minato. My disdain for Sasuke does not cloud my adoration of Itachi. I also hate Madara as a character. I believe that Orochimaru was a much more interesting and unique villain. Madara's too cliché. I don't use my fanaticism to cloud my judgement - as does the majority of the people here. It seems much more common to see whining on the side of apparent losers than the gloating on the apparent winners. If being a fan shouldn't matter, the last thing a fan should do is complain about a loss.

My favorite character is Jiraiya and I had to vote against him when facing Naruto. Let's face it, given the facts, Naruto can beat Jiraiya. There are obviously way more Naruto fans than Jiraiya fans, does that mean that Jiraiya losing is a result of blind fandom? No. Not everyone is a troll. I honestly find incessant whining way more trolling.

To be clear, I am not flaming anyone in particular - character or otherwise. I am stating a point and voicing my opinion concerning how some tangents occur during heated arguments. None of my comments were meant to insult or offend anyone :).

[tobeulp]

Fanbase and Lurkers are here from day 1 at the start of this tournament whining now is just making excuses...
First if you know since day 1 that there will be lurkers and fanbase why waste your time defending your character if in the end if he/she lose you will just whine and say this is garbage and not accept the results..

It is like running for Senator when you know that your opponent had more voters but you still try to win but in the end lose will you say damn this is garbage that Senator shouldn't have won only because he had many voters at first.

Don't want to flame just saying that be a sport and accept whatever results may come this tournament isn't even official and just a fanbase tournament but I have seen people that if their character lose it is like they lose a lot of money on that character...

Lastly in the high tier it isn't like there is a SSJ3 Gokou vs Yamcha matchup just saying that all of the characters had chances to win even as slim as 10%..

[M3J]

Bleh, it sucks Jiraiya has to fight Naruto. If it weren't for Jiraiya's jutsu repertoire, I can see Naruto winning the fight. Rikudou and Sage Modes are just too powerful for Jiraiya to stand a chance against, no matter what the mode.

Too bad Tobi didn't win. Tobi vs. Minato would have been easier in Minato's victory since he actually beat Tobi or at least, made him retreat. Though, would Tobi have been allowed Kyuubi? He did show the ability to summon Kyuubi when it was free. Actually, Tobi vs. Naruto would have been interesting since Tobi was able to free the Kyuubi from Kushina. Doubt Tobi would be able to push Naruto that far enough to weaken him though, since Rikudou and Sage Modes = extremely hard to surprise Naruto. Naruto also has tons of chakra so that'd make it easier to continuously attack Tobi, not to mention speed and strength. Sage Mode Naruto would be dangerous though since his reach can be extended, which I doubt Tobi can see.

Funny how I think Tobi can beat Itachi, but not Naruto. :P

[xXan]

You know the problem is not that they exist and of course we knew from day one. The thing is the mods could have made this a Tournament but they whent with a popularity contest (as this is fun for everybody or so they say :P). We had options that would prevent the fan voting (some would be more work for mods true :P) but none was accepted and they whent with voting.

[Tonix]

You know the problem is not that they exist and of course we knew from day one. The thing is the mods could have made this a Tournament but they whent with a popularity contest (as this is fun for everybody or so they say :P). We had options that would prevent the fan voting (some would be more work for mods true :P) but none was accepted and they whent with voting.

What other options were there? It ultimately has to come down to a vote. Or have you not noticed that people can't seem to agree on who would win?

[xXan]

What other options were there? It ultimately has to come down to a vote. Or have you not noticed that people can't seem to agree on who would win?

I gave more then 1. I am not going to post all of them.
Just one of them- Remove the polls (NO VOTING). Then 3 mods are going to vote the winer based on the arguments that WE present in the discusion topic of that fight.

Anyway at the very least they could do a hard questionnaire before alowing you to vote. That questionnaire would include questions abou the tournament rules (lots of peeps don't even read those) and of course questions about the manga and specific questions about the fighters at hand.

[hakuthehedgehog]

But most fights boil down to personal opinion and interpretation of the character's skills and powers.

For instance, lots of people thought Minato could blitz Nagato with his normal speed, even tough others don't.

Some thought Naruto Kisame would own Naruto, others thought Naruto would blitz Kisame with RM.

The list goes on, having mods deciding based on argument would leave the victory at the mercy of the opinions of three people, which IMO is unfair.

However, the questionary regarding the rules before each voting (if that could be made), would be a very good idea.

[xXan]

But most fights boil down to personal opinion and interpretation of the character's skills and powers.

For instance, lots of people thought Minato could blitz Nagato with his normal speed, even tough others don't.

Some thought Naruto Kisame would own Naruto, others thought Naruto would blitz Kisame with RM.

The list goes on, having mods deciding based on argument would leave the victory at the mercy of the opinions of three people, which IMO is unfair.

However, the questionary regarding the rules before each voting (if that could be made), would be a very good idea.

Most of the mods i see on this site posting got a very good grasp of the manga. So at least the people voting will be people who have knowledge about the material discussed there. Personaly i would prefer to have some mods deciding the fights them some lurkers who don't even whant to bother to post there opinion on that fight and give a logical explanation for there vote (something that the 3 mods could do) and just vote for who they like more.
So however bad this would be its going to be way better then the curent system. Not perfect but way better.

Or we, the people who actualy debate could vote some peeps(mods including and forum posters that we find are good at this stuff) to become judges like in many other contests. Having qualifide people voting is way better :P

[ninjabot]

Why do people complain about a character's fanbase? So what? There's no point. My second favorite character is Itachi and then Minato. My disdain for Sasuke does not cloud my adoration of Itachi. I also hate Madara as a character. I believe that Orochimaru was a much more interesting and unique villain. Madara's too cliché. I don't use my fanaticism to cloud my judgement - as does the majority of the people here. It seems much more common to see whining on the side of apparent losers than the gloating on the apparent winners. If being a fan shouldn't matter, the last thing a fan should do is complain about a loss.


Yes there is most certainly a point. This tournament is meant to find out who is the best of the best in the Narutoverse according to the fans. And that is NOT found out by voting on who the hell you think "looks cool" or "badass". It's about who is smarter, stronger, has a more hax repertoire, more staying power, and more versatility clashing their powers against those who others think are actually stronger. But because you can vote without having to use said arguments as reason to decide who would win you get to conveniently ignore who is the better ninja in favor of who you want to win without anyone pointing it out.

Thus, ninja who are clearly inferior to one ninja will slip by and be mistaken as the best when they clearly are not. Clearly. Those of us complaining are complaining because we're the only ones not willing to bend over and take it. Likewise this is nothing new to anyone. Go watch any boxing match, any UFC match, any competition anywhere in sports, and when ANYONE loses in ANYTHING, you always have people desputing over how and why.

Me: "You know, such-and-such team should've won that ballgame. I mean they scored more touchdowns and had a higher score than the hometeam... and then the fans just decided to vote for the home team instead because they are local and such-and-such team are visitors. It's... pretty sad. Now at the Super Bowl we'll have someone there that doesn't deserve to be. Tragic, really."

Mangahelpers: "GAWD! Stop whining! We know it's true! But we won, so we're gonna pretend that's actually not the case as not to cheapen our victory!"

Me: "Isn't that worse than whining, don't you think? I mean... lying is more reprehensible than whining. I'd think."

Mangahelpers: "STOP CRYING!!! FUUUUUUUU-"



You know the problem is not that they exist and of course we knew from day one. The thing is the mods could have made this a Tournament but they whent with a popularity contest (as this is fun for everybody or so they say :P). We had options that would prevent the fan voting (some would be more work for mods true :P) but none was accepted and they whent with voting.

LOL, yeah, I'm having hella fun. You couldn't tell?

[Naruffy]

Most of the mods i see on this site posting got a very good grasp of the manga. So at least the people voting will be people who have knowledge about the material discussed there. Personaly i would prefer to have some mods deciding the fights them some lurkers who don't even whant to bother to post there opinion on that fight and give a logical explanation for there vote (something that the 3 mods could do) and just vote for who they like more.
So however bad this would be its going to be way better then the curent system. Not perfect but way better.

Or we, the people who actualy debate could vote some peeps(mods including and forum posters that we find are good at this stuff) to become judges like in many other contests. Having qualifide people voting is way better :P

It was predictable that voters were going to decide who was going to win, based on the polls in the battle section. Which is why the complaints now could of been avoided if the idea of having judged choose a winner could/should of been brought up when the participants of the tournament where being decided. If you knew that this was going to be a popularity contest, why not ask the mods to change it before hand, rather than waiting until your favourite characters have been knocked out to bring up that you don't like the way the winners where decided?

[ninjabot]

It was predictable that voters were going to decide who was going to win, based on the polls in the battle section. Which is why the complaints now could of been avoided if the idea of having judged choose a winner could/should of been brought up when the participants of the tournament where being decided. If you knew that this was going to be a popularity contest, why not ask the mods to change it before hand, rather than waiting until your favourite characters have been knocked out to bring up that you don't like the way the winners where decided?


I mentioned it far before the tournament started that things would go down this way, hoping the mods had the foresight to see it aswell, but didn't make any kind of official plea to fix it. Apparently they either did not see things my way, or did and didn't care as the fun of many outweighs the fun of the few.

[jdw]

Ninjabot for solo MH Naruto Tournament 2012 Judge? We have to look to the future. I can help you with your campaign.

[ninjabot]

To be fair, I couldn't be the only judge no more than you could be the only judge. It'd have to be done American Idol style with multiple people who know what their talking about and can also stow their bias. Though American Idol might not be the best example because just like tha Mangahelpers tournament it also results in better singers losing the competition because America votes for who they like rather than who's the better singer.

[xXan]

It was predictable that voters were going to decide who was going to win, based on the polls in the battle section. Which is why the complaints now could of been avoided if the idea of having judged choose a winner could/should of been brought up when the participants of the tournament where being decided. If you knew that this was going to be a popularity contest, why not ask the mods to change it before hand, rather than waiting until your favourite characters have been knocked out to bring up that you don't like the way the winners where decided?

LOL i already proposed more then 1 option b4 it started. I even stated so some 2 posts above yours.

[Naruffy]

I mentioned it far before the tournament started that things would go down this way, hoping the mods had the foresight to see it aswell, but didn't make any kind of official plea to fix it. Apparently they either did not see things my way, or did and didn't care as the fun of many outweighs the fun of the few.

LOL i already proposed more then 1 option b4 it started. I even stated so some 2 posts above yours.

There's a difference between just stating a different system and following through until a either says no or changes something. Since you guys seem to be greatly annoyed by the way the polls turned out while knowing it would turn out this way, I would of figured that you had at least made sure the mods responded to your options. Then again it comes down to what the majority wants vs minority, so I'm sure they at least would ask if people preferred your way over the other.

[M3J]

I mentioned it far before the tournament started that things would go down this way, hoping the mods had the foresight to see it aswell, but didn't make any kind of official plea to fix it. Apparently they either did not see things my way, or did and didn't care as the fun of many outweighs the fun of the few.

To be honest, I think the mods guessed what would happen but decided to give benefit of doubt. Seeing as how this is a tourney, mods probably thought members would make a more rational choice, but I'm just assuming. I have no idea what they thought, though I did suggest (?) that there'd be fanbased voting. Plus, having the mods decide is too time consuming as they'd have to read posts, be on at the same time, and discuss.


In the end though, members would complain of bias instead of the ones on the losing side. If Sasuke beat Jiraiya because of the mods seeing Sasuke's arguments better, almost everyone would complain it was bias and crap, despite evidence otherwise. By having people vote for Jiraiya instead of Sasuke, it's just those select few who complain, mostly you and me.

I mean, I've seen many bad arguments that were thanked mostly because it was supporting what the others thought. If anyone said Sasuke would win and backed up why, they were called fanboy. If anyone said Jiraiya would win without backing it up, just saying "Jiraiya rox and Sasuke sux," they'd get away with it and Jiraiya supporters would ignore those posts, saying it's sad that others blame fanbase when the proof is right there.

And, I didn't realize I was ranting. Oh well. <_<

[xXan]

There's a difference between just stating a different system and following through until a either says no or changes something. Since you guys seem to be greatly annoyed by the way the polls turned out while knowing it would turn out this way, I would of figured that you had at least made sure the mods responded to your options. Then again it comes down to what the majority wants vs minority, so I'm sure they at least would ask if people preferred your way over the other.

Yes the mods stated they whant a system where even the lurkers have fun. I can't fight that. Its their Tournament and they are doing the hard work so we can have fun. In the end the majority are the lurkers so meh.
Now also i can't say the results greatly annoy me... But i would have liked a Tournament where we would have fights and winners based on logic.
I am fully aware that i can't change anything at this point.. But i can at least state i don't like the outcome.

@M3J

Not realy. They just wanted a system where somehow everybody get's something(as i said above to the other dude). The lurkers get there votes and we get to debate (even if we can't change the result lol).

[jdw]

Moderators, with respect to the tournament, are the three MS jutsu known to the entire shinobi world?



Characters will have no detailed information about the other characters in the tournament. Which means that all characters are unaware of other's techniques, abilities, fighting style and mindset. Widely known facts are however still known, like Hashirama is known for mokuton, Uchiha for Sharingan/MS etc, but no details and unknowns like Hidan's ritual and need of being in the circle to perform it.


After Sasuke's attack on the Kage summit, it seems that MS has been exposed to the entire shinobi/samurai world. Does this mean that the three techniques are known throughout the tournament?

[xXan]

Moderators, with respect to the tournament, are the three MS jutsu known to the entire shinobi world?



After Sasuke's attack on the Kage summit, it seems that MS has been exposed to the entire shinobi/samurai world. Does this mean that the three techniques are known throughout the tournament?

That is a good question and how much would they know about Itaci's MS genjutsu? Would they know is way superior to Sasuke's and it can control time? Personaly i belive somewhere all of this would fall into the "detailed information" part.

[UchihaHunter]

Also, even if opponents don't know that Hiraishin is S/T rather than speed, wouldn't this (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/542/12) mean that the basic workings of Hiraishin are known? That is, that at the very least, a seal is needed for teleportation?

[jdw]

I argue that MS has now become a widely known fact after the Kage Summit (and knowing Sasuke's role as an akatsuki so the information has spread as intel), and that to limit shinobi knowledge in the tournament would in effect be a bending of the rules in the favor of MS users.

[Gats]

3. Knowledge
Characters will have no detailed information about the other characters in the tournament. Which means that all characters are unaware of other's techniques, abilities, fighting style and mindset. Widely known facts are however still known, like Hashirama is known for mokuton, Uchiha for Sharingan/MS etc, but no details and unknowns like Hidan's ritual and need of being in the circle to perform it.

I think it's clear enough, no ?
MS powers are known. But the fact that Sasuke has weaker Tsuyukomi than Itachi is widely unknown.

Basically, knowing his opponent has "Sharingan" = knowing its doujutsu. It doesn't make sense otherwise.

Details like Itachi having the ultimate sword and shield should be unknown, it's detail that almost no one knows.

edit : Tsuyukomi should be known, since Kakashi endured it and Itachi fully explained him how it works. There is 0% chance that Kakashi didn't share the intel after that.

[M3J]

Amaterasu should definitely be known, and Suano'o to some extent as well. Not only did Kumo know about Amaterasu before the fight, but Kakashi and Kankurou heard about Amaterasu as well, the latter seeing it in action.

Although only Kakashi and Sakura saw the full Susano'o, it should be known somewhat at riblet version as that's what Kumo and Suna saw (Mizukage too). I don't think Itachi's Susano'o was known.

Tsukuyomi should still be a mystery though.

[UchihaHunter]

Lol, so shinobi who happened to not be involved in a war in which all countries share their intel have an advantage now, eh?

Edit: And freaking Kumogakure! They're uber! Tried to take the Kyuubi, were involved in the death of Tobirama, had two jinchurriki at once, knew roughly about Hiraishin, knew about Amaterasu and the MS, wtf did these dudes not know?

[Rikudou Sennin]

Edit: And freaking Kumogakure! They're uber! ..................., wtf did these dudes not know?

Knowledge? Maybe Jiraiya talked to much while " visiting certain clubs" with Raikage.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Knowledge? Maybe Jiraiya talked to much while " visiting certain clubs" with Raikage.

Or maybe Raikage's secretary has others purposes other than buying new desks and windows and teleporting stuff.

In all honesty: amaterasu's flames should be known, the fact that the sharingan has deadly genjutsu should be known and Susano'o that made the cave in of hatred should also be known.

[chilibun]

I don't think MS techniques should be known at all. Its been a secret and unknown to the world until Sasuke made it notorious. If we want to used the plot timeline, then all previously dead characters like Jiraiya, Minato, etc. still won't know about it. Raikage, Jiraiya, Madara, and a few others also knows exactly how Hiraishin works while others don't. Where do you draw the line? It either characters know everything about each other or they don't at all except for maybe renowned racial traits like the basic Uchiha Sharingan, Hyuuga Byakugan, Aburame bugs, etc. And even then their opponents still shouldn't know anything until they reveal their clan traits or lineage.

[jdw]

Generally known things are generally known. The tournament is taking place now, so people should know what is generally known now. MS jutsu are generally known now thanks to Sasuke. He did not make them notorious for the sake of the tournament but they are notorious now all the same. MS is now a renowned trait for Uchiha, is it not?

[chilibun]

Everything revealed in the manga is generally known. Everybody can pick up a report on Minato and learn about Hiraishin, Nagato and his Rinnegan, Madara and his S/T jutsu, etc. None of them are exactly secrets now.

[jdw]

Everything revealed in the manga is generally known. Everybody can pick up a report on Minato and learn about Hiraishin, Nagato and his Rinnegan, Madara and his S/T jutsu, etc. None of them are exactly secrets now.

I am not sure this is true. When we first saw Amaterasu, it was not generally know, imo, even if it is generally known right now. Even Jiraiya, a top Konoha shinobi with a long history, didn't really know anything of it. Madara revelealed Jinchuuriki Pain in the manga, but it is not generally known to anyone, is it? Where is the report of the jinchuuriki set with sharingan + rinnegan? -_-;

[chilibun]

I am not sure this is true. When we first saw Amaterasu, it was not generally know, imo, even if it is generally known right now. Even Jiraiya, a top Konoha shinobi with a long history, didn't really know anything of it. Madara revelealed Jinchuuriki Pain in the manga, but it is not generally known to anyone, is it? Where is the report of the jinchuuriki set with sharingan + rinnegan? -_-;

I am talking about the current timeline and the characters in this tournament. Reports on Madara, Minato, Nagato, etc. are all available. Their skills are shown to plenty of people including numerous characters in this tournament. The MS techniques is only known because its been documented. Only a handful of people have actually seen the techniques in action. Others only know them from reports, and the same reports exist for almost all the other characters as well. Its simply not fair to single out the MS if others can keep their techniques secret.

[jdw]

I am talking about the current timeline. Reports on Madara, Minato, Nagato, etc. are all available. Their skills are shown to plenty of people including numerous characters in this tournament. The MS techniques is only known because its been documented. Only a handful of people have actually seen the techniques in action. Others only know them from reports, and the same reports exist for almost all the other characters as well. Its simply not fair to single out the MS if others can keep their techniques secret.

Documents exist for a reason. It isn't singling them out. If others are better at keeping secrets that is their business, or if they do not attack summits at which all of their secrets will be exposed to the world at once. Once things are exposed to the shinobi world generally, the people involved won't expect it to be a secret.

[M3J]

I don't think MS techniques should be known at all. Its been a secret and unknown to the world until Sasuke made it notorious. If we want to used the plot timeline, then all previously dead characters like Jiraiya, Minato, etc. still won't know about it. Raikage, Jiraiya, Madara, and a few others also knows exactly how Hiraishin works while others don't. Where do you draw the line? It either characters know everything about each other or they don't at all except for maybe renowned racial traits like the basic Uchiha Sharingan, Hyuuga Byakugan, Aburame bugs, etc. And even then their opponents still shouldn't know anything until they reveal their clan traits or lineage.

Mangekyo and Amaterasu was known by Kumo though when they encountered Sasuke, which was due to Itachi.

[chilibun]

Documents exist for a reason. It isn't singling them out. If others are better at keeping secrets that is their business, or if they do not attack summits at which all of their secrets will be exposed to the world at once. Once things are exposed to the shinobi world generally, the people involved won't expect it to be a secret.

But everything is pretty much documented. Hiraishin has been shown to Madara, Raikage, Bee, Konoha, etc. Its no secret. Same with the Rinnegan from Pain's Konoha invasion. Almost everything can be learned from reports. There is no reason why everybody should receive a report on Sasuke's MS usage, but not of other characters.

[jdw]

Even if things are documented, it does not mean that everything documented is generally known. Some documents are confidential/internal, etc., no? I don't think every document created in Naruto was photocopied and carrier-pigeon'ed all around the world, or Gaara has 3 million sand-eyes looking at everyones notes, or Neji has a worldwide byakugan copying notes. Sasuke attacked the Kage summit. like 3 people were there from each major village, and countless Samurai. Also, as part of a war effort, knowing that Sasuke is a tool, for Akatsuki that is, of course that intenl on an opponent would be shared with the alliance, but even if no one shared about Sasuke, they all know anyway, lol. Are you really serious right now?

[chilibun]

Well, Hiraishin is known by Madara, Jiraiya, Sarutobi, Raikage, Bee, Kakashi, Naruto, and most of Konoha during his time. Its no secret. Since the Alliance, all Akatsuki information is shared so all their intel is available. Madara has shown is S/T jutsu at the summit. Onoki's dust release is also well known as he is the only known shinobi to have a bloodline expansion. That covers almost everybody in the tournament. There are no secrets really, so why single out the MS.

[Rikudou King]

Concerning the whole issue of what is know, only Amaterasu would be considered well known by the general public. Tsukuyomi and Susanoo were discovered during a previous encounter, which was made non existence for this tournament. the only ones who would know about all the MS techniques would have been those who already possessed them, the three Uchihas.

[ninjabot]

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v56/c542/13.html

The kunai that Raikage, Bee, and whats-his-face saw let them know immediately who they were dealing with. They didn't even see him teleport and knew it was him. I'd say that's proof enough that Hiraishin was well known outside of Konoha. And since Minato's not fighting someone from a forein country his chances of knowing of the jutsu are greater.

In other words, seeing that kunai is the same as seeing Itachi's eye turn into an MS eye. Once they both see it they know what they're dealing with. In otherwords no one gets an advantage here (except maybe Itachi, because Susanoo was the one jutsu not well known anywhere except by those with Sharingan or specifically focused on weilding Sharingan).

[jdw]

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v56/c542/13.html

The kunai that Raikage, Bee, and whats-his-face saw let them know immediately who they were dealing with. They didn't even see him teleport and knew it was him. I'd say that's proof enough that Hiraishin was well known outside of Konoha. And since Minato's not fighting someone from a forein country his chances of knowing of the jutsu are greater.

In other words, seeing that kunai is the same as seeing Itachi's eye turn into an MS eye. Once they both see it they know what they're dealing with. In otherwords no one gets an advantage here (except maybe Itachi, because Susanoo was the one jutsu not well known anywhere except by those with Sharingan or specifically focused on weilding Sharingan).

He "knew" it was the mark of a shunshin no jutsu (Naruhodo trans) (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/28815369/13), not actually Hiraishin, so if you want to say the world has inaccurate information go right ahead. Good luck with that.


those blonde hairs and the shunshin no jutsu\\ there is no doubt about it he is the yellow flash!! He have no other choice but to run away! Link (http://mangahelpers.com/t/aegon-rokudo/releases/30024)

[ninjabot]

I actually don't remember saying it said Hiraishin on it. Even funnier, I don't see where I typed it either. Infact, in the scan I posted it says Shunshin on it, so the only way you could think I was implying something else is if you didn't take the time to click on the link, lmao.

I said the tag was proof they knew who they were dealing with. Do you disagree?

[kelv015]

^The Mangekyo Sharingan as a Doujutsu is pretty well known by now. Be it for whatever reason it is, but now apparently EVERYONE knows that an Uchiha not only can have the 3 Tomoe Sharingan but also the Mangekyo. But, imo, they only know that this doujutsu grants him ''Amaterasu'' & an ''pretty great defense''. At first Raikage had no knowledge of that (we all see his ''wtf'' moment after the Liger Bomb?). But by know, all 5 Nations know about the MS and the abilities it grants it's user.

And, about the Hirashin argument. Yes, people knew who Minato was, yes peoples THOUGHT they had a grasp on Minato's jutsu....but I think it's been pretty well shown people actually knew literally nothing. For Pete's sake, Rin, her student, companion, teammate, etc. thought Minato was using a Shunshin Jutsu instead of Hirashin so I doubt that if she who had to be in countless missions with her sensei failed to grasp his jutsu, everyone else in Konoha should be the same. And about A and his ''dude'' screaming out how he was....well, even after being told it was Minato and that his Kunai had ''special markings''....he still got wtf-owned. And once he THOUGHT he had grasped Hirashin....Minato once again schools A. And btw, I'm not bringing up the fact that although Hirashin was as ''well-known'' you say, people still hadn't made NO COUNTER against since all orders where to retreat at the sight of Minato. So, in the end, just because you know the hype of a jutsu and you THINK you have grasped the basics of that jutsu...doesn't mean you actually understand the jutsu and know of a way to counter it.

And as far as the Rinnegan, if Konoha had shared with the other countries the REAL abilities that gave the Rinnegan (since all people knew was that it would allow the user to use any jutsu ever created), I doubt Raikage & everyone else would've downplayed Naruto in such a way...

[ninjabot]

^The Mangekyo Sharingan as a Doujutsu is pretty well known by now. Be it for whatever reason it is, but now apparently EVERYONE knows that an Uchiha not only can have the 3 Tomoe Sharingan but also the Mangekyo. But, imo, they only know that this doujutsu grants him ''Amaterasu'' & an ''pretty great defense''. At first Raikage had no knowledge of that (we all see his ''wtf'' moment after the Liger Bomb?). But by know, all 5 Nations know about the MS and the abilities it grants it's user.


Thanks to recent events, yes. And if all nations have a run-on-sight decree for Minato, and he's fought in both Kumogakure and the other ninja war where he fought the rock-nin, then that's atleast two countries where an entire platoon and it's leaders knew how Hiraishin works. It's never been said that people were afraid of Minato's summons or his Rasengan. It's his speed. For everyone in the world to know how dangerous he is aswell as why he's dangerous ASWELL as that he's got special kunai you'd be hardpressed to prove that no one knew of it. Hell, Raikage may have even known how it worked but thought he was fast enough to counter it.


And, about the Hirashin argument. Yes, people knew who Minato was, yes peoples THOUGHT they had a grasp on Minato's jutsu....but I think it's been pretty well shown people actually knew literally nothing. For Pete's sake, Rin, her student, companion, teammate, etc. thought Minato was using a Shunshin Jutsu instead of Hirashin so I doubt that if she who had to be in countless missions with her sensei failed to grasp his jutsu, everyone else in Konoha should be the same. And about A and his ''dude'' screaming out how he was....well, even after being told it was Minato and that his Kunai had ''special markings''....he still got wtf-owned. And once he THOUGHT he had grasped Hirashin....Minato once again schools A.


Bee, not Raikage. Instead of going for Raikage the second time he rushes to attack Bee. Raikage didn't get a chance to put his knowledge of Hiraishin's workings into play because Minato didn't take the fight to him, he took it to the guy on the sidelines.



And btw, I'm not bringing up the fact that although Hirashin was as ''well-known'' you say, people still hadn't made NO COUNTER against since all orders where to retreat at the sight of Minato. So, in the end, just because you know the hype of a jutsu and you THINK you have grasped the basics of that jutsu...doesn't mean you actually understand the jutsu and know of a way to counter it.


Then why even bring up the well known MS if that's the case? Minato doesn't know the speed of the black flames from Amaterasu or where they appear. Instead the attack is only ever stated to be hotter than the sun, and inextinguishable. Ditto, he doesn't know how fast Susanoo can be manifested or how much damage it can tank. Nor that he needs Uchiha blood and a Sharingan to escape Tsukuyomi. He can know of the jutsu and still fail in every aspect by not knowing how each one is countered.

[jdw]

I actually don't remember saying it said Hiraishin on it. Even funnier, I don't see where I typed it either. Infact, in the scan I posted it says Shunshin on it, so the only way you could think I was implying something else is if you didn't take the time to click on the link, lmao.

I said the tag was proof they knew who they were dealing with. Do you disagree?

Aside from saying the tag was proof of who they were dealing with, you also said:


I'd say that's proof enough that Hiraishin was well known outside of Konoha.

Read your own posts more thoroughly. And my point what that even though they heard of Minato, there is no basis to say that Hirashin was known because upon seeing the the kunai/tag, the guy said it was the shunshin no jutsu mark. Furthermore, your scan doesn't say anything about what the mark on the kunai says. If you have time to laugh, you should pay closer attention to detail.

In chapter 543, the guy sees the mark on Bee and says:


On one of the tails of the hachibi there is the shunshin’s…!\\

So, again, I don't think any of this indicates Hiraishin itself was well-known. Yellow hair, marking, speed, and leave immediately were known.

[xXan]

Aside from saying the tag was proof of who they were dealing with, you also said:



Read your own posts more thoroughly. And my point what that even though they heard of Minato, there is no basis to say that Hirashin was known because upon seeing the the kunai/tag, the guy said it was the shunshin no jutsu mark. Furthermore, your scan doesn't say anything about what the mark on the kunai says. If you have time to laugh, you should pay closer attention to detail.

In chapter 543, the guy sees the mark on Bee and says:



So, again, I don't think any of this indicates Hiraishin itself was well-known. Yellow hair, marking, speed, and leave immediately were known.

That is all well and good but we are not using the ninja comunity as it was some 16 years ago. The curent one should defenetly know Minato had teleportation in his arsenal.

[ninjabot]

Read your own posts more thoroughly. And my point what that even though they heard of Minato, there is no basis to say that Hirashin was known because upon seeing the the kunai/tag, the guy said it was the shunshin no jutsu mark. Furthermore, your scan doesn't say anything about what the mark on the kunai says. If you have time to laugh, you should pay closer attention to detail.


You just said the guy says it was the shunshin mark on it... and then, immediately after, in the same paragraph, state that it DOESN'T say anything about what the tag says in the scan? But I should pay attention.

Just... stop.

Hiraishin, whether by name was known by ninja worldwide because Minato's speed was known worldwide and atleast by Kumogakure and Tsuchigakure, his kunai were known. So well that ninja from Kumogakure even knew what seal was written onto the kunai. They knew that Minato had kunai with the shunshin tag on them, and that was enough to know that it was him.

I'd say that's proof enough that Hiraishin was well known outside of Konoha. Whether by name or just that he was incredibly fast thanks to his kunai.

[jdw]

The mark could be known for Shunshin but not say shunshin. I could scribble a marking down and it can become affiliated with my katon, and people will expect katon even if it does not say katon. I think the marking itself became affiliated with Minato's "shunshin," but I am not certain that the marking itself says "shunshin," though it might, I have no recollection of it being translated as such.

[xXan]

At 1 point he states sunshin at another teleport God i would love to be anble to read that Japaneze stuff:
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/94143801/3

Raikage also states here teleportation after the first hit:
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/94143801/1

Anywhay its obvious that at present day its common info so i really don't see why we need to debate what was known then.

[UchihaHunter]

Eh, Shunshin no Jutsu is the Body Flicker technique. The translation as teleport/teleportation in some instances and Shunshin in other instances is just the privilege of those that scanlate. Since they don't know the name of the technique, they treat it as some advanced form of Shunshin no Jutsu. It's similar to how Deidara treated Sasuke's Chidori techs as Raikiri techs...it's not a complete misunderstanding of the technique, even though Raikiri is an entire rank above Chidori; it's just Deidara not knowing 100% what the technique is.

For all intents and purposes, Hiraishin is a super Shunshin. Without Minato actually telling you that it's called Hiraishin, it's easy to call it Shunshin instead. His own students referred to it as Shunshin. Once you know that he teleports to the seal, I don't think knowing the name is that important. The difference in speed is exceptional; indeed, that's because Hiraishin is an S/T technique, more comparable to Kuchiyose than an actual body activation speed tech like Shunshin (a closer comparison to Shunshin would be the Raikage's speed with the armor on). However, like the Raikage and B showed, if you know where the seals are, you basically have a grasp on the technique, and with the proper tools can attempt a counter.

Basically, my point is everyone unfamiliar with Minato refers to it as Shunshin/teleportation. I think even Madara, who knew of the seal and such, referred to it as such (I'll have to check the raw). However, knowing the name isn't as important as knowing the function.

[Lelo]

I just notcied the semis should have been Naruto vs Sasuke and Itachi vs Minato. Senjus vs Uchihas. That would have been epic but somehow, someway Jiraiya beat Sasuke

[White Silver King]

We don't know if Minato is a Senju.

[kelv015]

Thanks to recent events, yes. And if all nations have a run-on-sight decree for Minato, and he's fought in both Kumogakure and the other ninja war where he fought the rock-nin, then that's atleast two countries where an entire platoon and it's leaders knew how Hiraishin works. It's never been said that people were afraid of Minato's summons or his Rasengan. It's his speed. For everyone in the world to know how dangerous he is aswell as why he's dangerous ASWELL as that he's got special kunai you'd be hardpressed to prove that no one knew of it. Hell, Raikage may have even known how it worked but thought he was fast enough to counter it.

Exactly, and where did his speed come from? Right, Hirashin. And they didn't know exactly why he was dangerous, heck, people believed he had just mastered the Shunshin technique to a point where no one else had gotten before him, but that wasn't it. So, you know that's his special kunai, Raikage knew that was his special kunai, the dude accompanying A knew that was Minato and he ought to know what his future Raikage is able to do alongside his partner Bee. But did he say, I'm gonna sit back and let you two handled him. Now, he said, ''omfg it's Konohas Yellow Flash lets skedaddle!". And that's the thing, Minato realizes his jutsu in paper is fairly easy to comprehend, thus we he never uses the same strategy before, ask A or Madara and how they epicly failed after ''grasping'' his jutsu.


Bee, not Raikage. Instead of going for Raikage the second time he rushes to attack Bee. Raikage didn't get a chance to put his knowledge of Hiraishin's workings into play because Minato didn't take the fight to him, he took it to the guy on the sidelines.

So? If the guys in the sidelines weren't there, A would've died before ever becoming Raikage so I don't get your point there. Well again, that's the thing about Minato, you think you get his jutsu, he goes from one kunai to another. But suddenly, you don't know he can make his seal on EVERYTHING he touches in a single second, he can throw a Kunai and telport to the Kunai after you avoid/reflect it...just because people back then knew he was the Yellow Flash means they knew how his jutsu worked.



Then why even bring up the well known MS if that's the case? Minato doesn't know the speed of the black flames from Amaterasu or where they appear. Instead the attack is only ever stated to be hotter than the sun, and inextinguishable. Ditto, he doesn't know how fast Susanoo can be manifested or how much damage it can tank. Nor that he needs Uchiha blood and a Sharingan to escape Tsukuyomi. He can know of the jutsu and still fail in every aspect by not knowing how each one is countered.

Raikage didn't know the speed of Amaterasu since he had never seen it before either but that didn't stop him from dodging it. Exactly, if a fire is inextinguishable, common logic says to avoid the giant black fireball, and for someone that showed to have better reflexes than a full powered Cloaked A, I doubt it would be much trouble. Kakashi managed to use Kamui before Susanoo's arrow hit him, so I doubt that someone with better reflexes and an arguably even faster S/T Tech would fail to do so. And as far as Tsukuyomi, all you gotta do is not look at the Sharingan and that's it, he doesn't need to know he needs to be an Uchiha, have Sharingan or a Bijuu to break out of it...if he never falls for it in the first place. So yeah, keep trying my friend.

[ninjabot]

Raikage didn't know the speed of Amaterasu since he had never seen it before either but that didn't stop him from dodging it. Exactly, if a fire is inextinguishable, common logic says to avoid the giant black fireball, and for someone that showed to have better reflexes than a full powered Cloaked A, I doubt it would be much trouble. Kakashi managed to use Kamui before Susanoo's arrow hit him, so I doubt that someone with better reflexes and an arguably even faster S/T Tech would fail to do so. And as far as Tsukuyomi, all you gotta do is not look at the Sharingan and that's it, he doesn't need to know he needs to be an Uchiha, have Sharingan or a Bijuu to break out of it...if he never falls for it in the first place. So yeah, keep trying my friend.


I think what you're trying so hard to avoid admitting is the same thing you're saying about the MS for Hiraishin: that hearing of a jutsu doesn't give you the means to defend against it, nor lack of that knowledge stops you from being able to overcome it simply because general knowledge isn't the same thing as full understanding. You want to believe that the hundreds of people with knowledge of Hiraishin don't know how to defend against it, but also want to believe that everyone that knows MS exists can defend against each jutsu (or atleast Minato) without knowing the crucial secrets of it, getting by on general knowledge alone.

You can't have it both ways. Likewise you're giving obvious disadvantages to the MS that it just doesn't have. Minato can't see a giant black fireball approaching him just like Raikage couldn't. He could just see Itachi's eye bleed and prepare to move beforehand (he doesn't know it appears on where Itachi's looking instead of firing at him). He can dodge Susanoo arrows and attacks, but hasn't a sliver of a chance to break through it (just regular old Rasengan? Hell no). He can dodge Tsukuyomi but if he doesn't, then he's literally beyond dead (he's super mega brain-rape dead).

My point is you can barely get by on general knowledge and fall for the specifics. A perfect example would be Raikage knowing how Hiraishin works, but not knowing that Minato could place the tag on any object around him. That lack of complete knowledge resulted in Minato attacking his partner by surprise, something Raikage wasn't ready for even though he had some knowledge of the jutsu.

[M3J]

It's Minato Double Standard. Anytime anyone downplays Minato, even with perfectly good reason, people get mad. However, they won't mind downplaying anyone else. Example: Sasuke and 1000 shinobi vs. Minato and 50 shinobi. People say Minato's feat was more impressive because he was up against 50 chuunins although he had Hiraishin to bail him out of trouble. Sasuke's feat was nothing even against 1000 shinobi as training practice despite not tryin to kill them and despite Orochimaru saying he was nothing compared to Sasuke. Why? Because of a horrible excuse called "those shinobi weren't really shinobi" EVEN THOUGH they dressed like shinobi and it'd make no sense for Sasuke to train if he got no challenge. If Minato got attacked from behind, he could use Hiraishin. An exploding tag? Hiraishin. Sasuke had no leisure, if he got attacked from behind, Sasuke would have needed to defend himself well or he'd get injured.

So many rules for MInato, like no downplaying him, but overplaying him works, yet those rules apply to no one else. The manga even gets ignored. People can say MInato can break out of any genjutsu he wants, but no one is allowed to say Sasuke is a genius despite so many characters, even Sasuke's enemies, saying that he is. They can say Sasuke isn't a genius though.

These statements have actually been said and somehow mostly involves Sasuke (which shows the level of hatred for Sasuke and love for Minato, which may show that Minato is liked because he could probably beat Sasuke). Minato Double Standard no Jutsu is as real as Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.

[DementedKirby]

@ninjabot:

Hmmm, it seems you didn't get what I'm saying. Basically, I meant that being a fan should be a point, however a lot of people vote because of preference and without support. However, not everyone does. So, basically, I am saying the same thing you are, in essence, at the very least.

This happens all the time with politicians. We live in the United States. You know how it goes, bro. A lot of times people are elected merely because of popularity and oratory skills and not much support of how good a job they'd do in office, yatta, yatta, yatta.


I mentioned it far before the tournament started that things would go down this way, hoping the mods had the foresight to see it aswell, but didn't make any kind of official plea to fix it. Apparently they either did not see things my way, or did and didn't care as the fun of many outweighs the fun of the few.

While I do agree to some extent, you guys gotta cool down and understand a couple of things as well:

1 - This is for fun. Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, trollers gonna troll. That's just the way it is. If you get mad, then they win.

2 - That being said, I don't know any of the mods nor do I know how anything happens behind the green curtains in the wizard's chambers here at mangahelpers, but it's pretty obvious that the mods did an extraordinary job predicting the tournament outcome, thus providing a very well thought-out layout for the characters. Obviously they assumed that the finals would be Sasuke vs. Naruto and Minato vs. Itachi. However, much like the first season of Survivor, we got a big :blink at the end. So I disagree and say the mods did the best they could under the given circumstances. Worst comes to worse, it's the people's fault for voting how they did and not the mods. I'd say that's pretty fraggin' brilliant:amuse. Kudos!:p

3 - Obviously, people should have some prior knowledge to how the manga works and the details before voting. I mean, heaven forbid that people go to court where their future lies in the hands of a jury composed of people who have not a single clue of law, how the legal system works, what DNA means, have every intention of paying attention to every single detail of a case, and then debate on the cold hard facts without paying attention to the oratory or charm and charisma of a lawyer in the courtroom while also setting personal opinions aside and merely rely on the irrefutable evidence presented. Oh wait, that's exactly how a jury works. Hmmm, my bad. My point? This happens everywhere - even the biggest and most important forum of all... COURTROOMS. So just relax, bro.

Sasuke lost to Jiraiya. Big deal. Did you think he'd win the tournament against Minato or Naruto or Itachi? Yeah right! He just got one cell shorter of his destination. It's not that Sasuke sucks, or that I'm flaming him, it's just that I named three shinobi who are currently - now bear with me a bit, Sasuke-fans - currently better than he is. Sorry, people. Facts.

---------- Post added at 04:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:04 AM ----------


@M3J

It's Minato Double Standard. Anytime anyone downplays Minato, even with perfectly good reason, people get mad. However, they won't mind downplaying anyone else. Example: Sasuke and 1000 shinobi vs. Minato and 50 shinobi. People say Minato's feat was more impressive because he was up against 50 chuunins although he had Hiraishin to bail him out of trouble. Sasuke's feat was nothing even against 1000 shinobi as training practice despite not tryin to kill them and despite Orochimaru saying he was nothing compared to Sasuke. Why? Because of a horrible excuse called "those shinobi weren't really shinobi" EVEN THOUGH they dressed like shinobi and it'd make no sense for Sasuke to train if he got no challenge. If Minato got attacked from behind, he could use Hiraishin. An exploding tag? Hiraishin. Sasuke had no leisure, if he got attacked from behind, Sasuke would have needed to defend himself well or he'd get injured.

So many rules for MInato, like no downplaying him, but overplaying him works, yet those rules apply to no one else. The manga even gets ignored. People can say MInato can break out of any genjutsu he wants, but no one is allowed to say Sasuke is a genius despite so many characters, even Sasuke's enemies, saying that he is. They can say Sasuke isn't a genius though.

These statements have actually been said and somehow mostly involves Sasuke (which shows the level of hatred for Sasuke and love for Minato, which may show that Minato is liked because he could probably beat Sasuke). Minato Double Standard no Jutsu is as real as Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.

Yes, I totally agree. I'm a bigass Jiraiya fan and a bigass Minato fan. However, it's not blind devotion. I'm not following either of them off a cliff in hopes of salvation, nor will I drink any special fruit punch they provide me so that my soul will be freed from my mortal coil and be picked up by a spaceship to transport the faithful to a comet where we drink Jack Daniels out of the skulls of Uchiha corpses. I get annoyed by people who are fans of a character without really knowing that characters. These people are called posers. And posers ruin everything. Ever spend a shitload of money to go to a concert of a band you really love and then stand next to someone who paid the same money as you just to chant and scream at the band telling them to only play singles - in other words, the only songs a poser would know? That pisses me off to no end, even if they did put money into my favorite artists' pockets. Catch my drift? Hmmm, seems I ranted on as well, my apologies :p

[kelv015]

I think what you're trying so hard to avoid admitting is the same thing you're saying about the MS for Hiraishin: that hearing of a jutsu doesn't give you the means to defend against it, nor lack of that knowledge stops you from being able to overcome it simply because general knowledge isn't the same thing as full understanding. You want to believe that the hundreds of people with knowledge of Hiraishin don't know how to defend against it, but also want to believe that everyone that knows MS exists can defend against each jutsu (or atleast Minato) without knowing the crucial secrets of it, getting by on general knowledge alone.


If you know an Uchiha has Amaterasu you'll be on your toes ready to avoid it, if you don't know it's coming 99.9% of the time you'll get burned. Raikage knew Amaterasu was at some point going to be used so he was waiting for it and when the moment came, he was able to dodge. On the other hand, Raikage knew Minato could ''shunshin'' to all his kunai, he knew what Minato could do....yet he couldn't stop Minato from appearing on his back kunai in hand ready to (possibly) slash him in half (or possibly) just give him a minor cut. I'm not using a double standard, I'm simply telling something that's been SHOWN in the MANGA. If you have REALLY GREAT speed and reflexes and you know Amaterasu is coming you can avoid it. If you have great speed and reflexes and know Minato can shunshin or teleport to every kunai with a tag on it...you're still gonna get hit by him. And I'm not saying ANYONE can protect against Amaterasu, someone like Shikamaru even knowing it's coming would have no means of avoiding it...but, someone as Minato who has an S/T Tech surely has the means to do so if he is ready for it. You don't need to be constantly looking at his eyes and fall in Tsukuyomi while doing so, you'll see the blood dripping down to the floor and you'll know it's gonna come.

[ninjabot]

@DementedKirby:I posted a big-ass post before a storm knocked out my internet. I don't feel the need to rewrite it all, but I'll address the big points:

In court trials can be overturned with new evidence. Jurors can be DEMANDED to strike certain evidences from the courtroom and not rely on them (like say, if someone claimed Jiraiya could get out of Tsukuyomi but had no proof), and even if the jury sees fit to screw over Sasuke the way Mangahelpers did, he can appeal, he could file his own lawsuit claiming prejudice (the jurors hate Uchiha. That's racial profiling), and he can come out of this on top.

My point is that you guys keep saying "What's done is done, stop crying and move on." siting real life as evidence of this. But your very analogy is proof that things don't have to work that way. You got screwed over? You raise hell. Even if it doesn't correct what went down you get the self satisfaction of knowing you didn't bend over and take it. You fought back.



Sasuke lost to Jiraiya. Big deal. Did you think he'd win the tournament against Minato or Naruto or Itachi? Yeah right! He just got one cell shorter of his destination. It's not that Sasuke sucks, or that I'm flaming him, it's just that I named three shinobi who are currently - now bear with me a bit, Sasuke-fans - currently better than he is. Sorry, people. Facts.


Two of those ninja are better than him. One is just stronger than him. And listen to what you're saying. Sasuke losing to two of the most hax ninja in the manga? Acceptable. Sasuke losing to someone he left in the dust a hundred or so chapters ago? Big difference.

[xXan]

It's Minato Double Standard. Anytime anyone downplays Minato, even with perfectly good reason, people get mad. However, they won't mind downplaying anyone else. Example: Sasuke and 1000 shinobi vs. Minato and 50 shinobi. People say Minato's feat was more impressive because he was up against 50 chuunins although he had Hiraishin to bail him out of trouble. Sasuke's feat was nothing even against 1000 shinobi as training practice despite not tryin to kill them and despite Orochimaru saying he was nothing compared to Sasuke. Why? Because of a horrible excuse called "those shinobi weren't really shinobi" EVEN THOUGH they dressed like shinobi and it'd make no sense for Sasuke to train if he got no challenge. If Minato got attacked from behind, he could use Hiraishin. An exploding tag? Hiraishin. Sasuke had no leisure, if he got attacked from behind, Sasuke would have needed to defend himself well or he'd get injured.

So many rules for MInato, like no downplaying him, but overplaying him works, yet those rules apply to no one else. The manga even gets ignored. People can say MInato can break out of any genjutsu he wants, but no one is allowed to say Sasuke is a genius despite so many characters, even Sasuke's enemies, saying that he is. They can say Sasuke isn't a genius though.

These statements have actually been said and somehow mostly involves Sasuke (which shows the level of hatred for Sasuke and love for Minato, which may show that Minato is liked because he could probably beat Sasuke). Minato Double Standard no Jutsu is as real as Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.

If i remember right he even had other people trow his kunai form him...

[jaymizzo]

It's Minato Double Standard. Anytime anyone downplays Minato, even with perfectly good reason, people get mad. However, they won't mind downplaying anyone else. Example: Sasuke and 1000 shinobi vs. Minato and 50 shinobi. People say Minato's feat was more impressive because he was up against 50 chuunins although he had Hiraishin to bail him out of trouble. Sasuke's feat was nothing even against 1000 shinobi as training practice despite not tryin to kill them and despite Orochimaru saying he was nothing compared to Sasuke. Why? Because of a horrible excuse called "those shinobi weren't really shinobi" EVEN THOUGH they dressed like shinobi and it'd make no sense for Sasuke to train if he got no challenge. If Minato got attacked from behind, he could use Hiraishin. An exploding tag? Hiraishin. Sasuke had no leisure, if he got attacked from behind, Sasuke would have needed to defend himself well or he'd get injured.

So many rules for MInato, like no downplaying him, but overplaying him works, yet those rules apply to no one else. The manga even gets ignored. People can say MInato can break out of any genjutsu he wants, but no one is allowed to say Sasuke is a genius despite so many characters, even Sasuke's enemies, saying that he is. They can say Sasuke isn't a genius though.

These statements have actually been said and somehow mostly involves Sasuke (which shows the level of hatred for Sasuke and love for Minato, which may show that Minato is liked because he could probably beat Sasuke). Minato Double Standard no Jutsu is as real as Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.

Double Standards exist everywhere in this forum, its Sad if you think that it only applies to Minato.

Alot of Characters are overhyped by us fans and some even go so far as to say that they're untouchable. Yes most it does involve Sasuke, but mainly because as ive said plenty of times; People have made him into some kind of God, Remember after the Kage Summit? People actually said he was untouchable, In those Arena match-ups the same Argument was used over and over again etc.

Ofcourse As ive mentioned many characters do end up getting Godlike treatment, but the most notable one after Minato is Sasuke, so ofcourse the fans would clash.

And i do agree that some Minato fans are actually overstepping assumptions or facts, but the same for the "other" people who try and "troll" him.

P.S. I find it funny that some people still havent gotten over the fact that Sasuke lost to Jiraiya, and the same people said they knew that this Tournament was heavily decided on fanbase. I mean seriously, if you know that Fanbase is always going to decide the end result, why in Gods name do you get so emotional..

[benelori]

Double Standards exist everywhere in this forum, its Sad if you think that it only applies to Minato.

Alot of Characters are overhyped by us fans and some even go so far as to say that they're untouchable. Yes most it does involve Sasuke, but mainly because as ive said plenty of times; People have made him into some kind of God, Remember after the Kage Summit? People actually said he was untouchable, In those Arena match-ups the same Argument was used over and over again etc.

Ofcourse As ive mentioned many characters do end up getting Godlike treatment, but the most notable one after Minato is Sasuke, so ofcourse the fans would clash.

And i do agree that some Minato fans are actually overstepping assumptions or facts, but the same for the "other" people who try and "troll" him.

P.S. I find it funny that some people still havent gotten over the fact that Sasuke lost to Jiraiya, and the same people said they knew that this Tournament was heavily decided on fanbase. I mean seriously, if you know that Fanbase is always going to decide the end result, why in Gods name do you get so emotional..

But this God-like treatment has roots in the manga you know...if you give a character absolute defense, eyes that can track, long range mountain moving jutsu, and on top of that you repeatedly say he is a genius, who at a younger age surpassed another acclaimed genius(Oro), then I think that is very similar to God-like treatment...and it's not fanfic...it actually comes from the author...it's the same with Naruto nowadays, Minato w/e

[M3J]

Double Standards exist everywhere in this forum, its Sad if you think that it only applies to Minato.

Alot of Characters are overhyped by us fans and some even go so far as to say that they're untouchable. Yes most it does involve Sasuke, but mainly because as ive said plenty of times; People have made him into some kind of God, Remember after the Kage Summit? People actually said he was untouchable, In those Arena match-ups the same Argument was used over and over again etc.
It mostly applies to Minato. Nowhere have I seen anyone say anything negative about him, and if anyone did, the fans would throw a shitstorm. I modded and I've pointed out things about Minato that weren't positive, I know what I'm talking about, even though it's exaggerated opinion I make.

I don't think anyone said Sasuke was untouchable as Killerbee, Raikage, and Danzou gave him a major challenge. Killerbee brought Sasuke close to death twice, and Raikage did the impossible and avoided Amaterasu and couldn't be traced. After seeing those, I find it hard to believe people can hype Sasuke and consider him untouchable when he had problems even with Mangekyo. With Minato, he can apparently do anything. He can make a barrier on the ground and let people fall through although that makes no sense, he is immune to genjutsu although NO ONE is, etc etc. I like Minato and all, but his fans are annoying him and overpower him undeservedly.


Ofcourse As ive mentioned many characters do end up getting Godlike treatment, but the most notable one after Minato is Sasuke, so ofcourse the fans would clash.

And i do agree that some Minato fans are actually overstepping assumptions or facts, but the same for the "other" people who try and "troll" him.

P.S. I find it funny that some people still havent gotten over the fact that Sasuke lost to Jiraiya, and the same people said they knew that this Tournament was heavily decided on fanbase. I mean seriously, if you know that Fanbase is always going to decide the end result, why in Gods name do you get so emotional..

I think it's either Jiraiya or Itachi who get the godlike treatment, as shown when they beat Sasuke and Tobi just because they're them. There was the horrible Jiraiya hair withstanding Amaterasu argument, people saying Itachi ftw because Tobi never made a move, etcetc. Two of my favorite characters and I don't really agree with the victory.

I agree, but it's probably a response to those that overrate Minato.

Because I expected decent reasons from fanbase. Jiraiya fans barely gave any, just saying it was his hair that'd stop Amaterasu, he could break out of any genjutsu, and just because it was Jiraiya. If people make good arguments for someone that I think won't win, then I won't mind, yanno?

[jaymizzo]

It mostly applies to Minato. Nowhere have I seen anyone say anything negative about him, and if anyone did, the fans would throw a shitstorm. I modded and I've pointed out things about Minato that weren't positive, I know what I'm talking about, even though it's exaggerated opinion I make.

I guess it is true, but partly because Kishi hasnt given anyone any reason to think Minato cannot do certain things. I mean ofcourse Minato is no Rikudou Sennin and some of the things the fans say are ridiculous, but you have to agree that Fanboys always keep theyre Favs high.


I don't think anyone said Sasuke was untouchable as Killerbee, Raikage, and Danzou gave him a major challenge. Killerbee brought Sasuke close to death twice, and Raikage did the impossible and avoided Amaterasu and couldn't be traced. After seeing those, I find it hard to believe people can hype Sasuke and consider him untouchable when he had problems even with Mangekyo. With Minato, he can apparently do anything. He can make a barrier on the ground and let people fall through although that makes no sense, he is immune to genjutsu although NO ONE is, etc etc. I like Minato and all, but his fans are annoying him and overpower him undeservedly.


Trust me when i tell you that people did say this, i actually went into extreme heated arguments with people, some even went into PMs. I got infracted alot because i couldnt stand what people were saying and thats the reason i decided to stay out of "Uchiha" threads.

I wouldnt say that without a reason, I agree the Hype surrounding Minato is huge, and the things the fans say are sometimes ridiculous but like ive said before, the same can be said by the opposition. Especially the Itachi vs Minato thing, i mean seriously 1 Genjutsu and its lights out for Minato? I really dont see the point in giving Itachi any fights at all (well ofcourse same for Minato) if he is going around 1shotting people with Finger genjutsus.


I think it's either Jiraiya or Itachi who get the godlike treatment, as shown when they beat Sasuke and Tobi just because they're them. There was the horrible Jiraiya hair withstanding Amaterasu argument, people saying Itachi ftw because Tobi never made a move, etcetc. Two of my favorite characters and I don't really agree with the victory.

I understand what you mean, but you gotta admit this tournament isnt perfect :darn


Because I expected decent reasons from fanbase. Jiraiya fans barely gave any, just saying it was his hair that'd stop Amaterasu, he could break out of any genjutsu, and just because it was Jiraiya. If people make good arguments for someone that I think won't win, then I won't mind, yanno?

As i continuously have been saying, the same can be said for the opposition, people just tried to be creative perhaps. I mean remember the Hidan fight? I mean was it ridiculous to think that Hidan can atleast draw some blood from his opponents?

I remember Hidan was treated as a non factor and that he would get speedblitz, no other arguments were welcomed by the other side, and the same claims as the one in Minatos threads were made like being "1shotted" because he was slow.

Ive read the Jiraiya thread and alot of threads, i wished not to discuss in most of them but there were some decent arguments, ofcourse once your set on one path its very hard to convince you to break from it ;)

[hakuthehedgehog]

Most of the fights boil down to personal interpretation of the manga and the respective techniques.

The Jiraya blocking amaterasu with hair is one of those examples: while I believe that Jiraya could put a shiton of hair in between him and Sasuke before he casts amaterasu, some people either didn't think so, either because amaterasu would burn too fast or because Jiraya wouldn't get up in time.

No matter how much we discussed and used manga pannels, it was obviously the opinion of one vs another, and no one could be considered wrong: it could conceivably go both ways.

The same can be said for almost every fight: Kakashi vs Konan; Hashirama vs Orochimaru; Nagato vs Minato; Tobi vs Itachi, etc.

PS: I voted for Jiraya, but I don't think he would lose to the MS techniques: IMO Kirin is what would give Sasuke the win.

[jdw]

Even if the tournament isn't perfect, I don't really think it matters. Stuff happens in fights too. People get lucky, opportunities are missed, and upsets occur. Just because A may seem more powerful than B to some, it doesn't mean that B takes an automatic loss. Fight exist because people don't just walk away when the odds are against them, and anything can happen, or at least that is the hope anyway. Not to say that Moegi can beat Madara, but once people of a decent/great level are fighting, the smallest skills can play a big role in turning the battle around, imo.

[M3J]

]Trust me when i tell you that people did say this, i actually went into extreme heated arguments with people, some even went into PMs. I got infracted alot because i couldnt stand what people were saying and thats the reason i decided to stay out of "Uchiha" threads.
Not shocked. How many actually said that? Sasuke is hard to touch though due to Susano'o. You'd either need speed, gas (apparently), or pure power to break through his Susano'o defense. Though, we could say Rikudou Mode has better defense than Susano'o riblets as the riblets broke through while Naruto wasn't pulverized.


I wouldnt say that without a reason, I agree the Hype surrounding Minato is huge, and the things the fans say are sometimes ridiculous but like ive said before, the same can be said by the opposition. Especially the Itachi vs Minato thing, i mean seriously 1 Genjutsu and its lights out for Minato? I really dont see the point in giving Itachi any fights at all (well ofcourse same for Minato) if he is going around 1shotting people with Finger genjutsus.
I feel the same as well, I never liked how people kept saying Itachi could one shot anyone with his genjutsu or how he's definitely better than Jiraiya. However, there's no proof Minato can break out of genjutsu yet or no indication he can break out of Tsukuyomi. I'm supporting Itachi but I'm also being fair to Minato as well. It's not necessarily the genjutsu that'd take out Minato, but it'd prevent him from reacting to Itachi like it did when Itachi paralyzed Orochimaru.



As i continuously have been saying, the same can be said for the opposition, people just tried to be creative perhaps. I mean remember the Hidan fight? I mean was it ridiculous to think that Hidan can atleast draw some blood from his opponents?

I remember Hidan was treated as a non factor and that he would get speedblitz, no other arguments were welcomed by the other side, and the same claims as the one in Minatos threads were made like being "1shotted" because he was slow.

Ive read the Jiraiya thread and alot of threads, i wished not to discuss in most of them but there were some decent arguments, ofcourse once your set on one path its very hard to convince you to break from it ;)
People are bad at creativity. Speedblitzing won't help unless his head is cut off. Against Minato and Raikage, I can understand the speedblitz argument, but it makes no sense for anyone else. He should at least be able to scratch someone, as you said. His weapon is based around that, even.

Depends. If there's good argument and such, it's not really hard for some people to be swayed otherwise.


Most of the fights boil down to personal interpretation of the manga and the respective techniques.

The Jiraya blocking amaterasu with hair is one of those examples: while I believe that Jiraya could put a shiton of hair in between him and Sasuke before he casts amaterasu, some people either didn't think so, either because amaterasu would burn too fast or because Jiraya wouldn't get up in time.

No matter how much we discussed and used manga pannels, it was obviously the opinion of one vs another, and no one could be considered wrong: it could conceivably go both ways.

The same can be said for almost every fight: Kakashi vs Konan; Hashirama vs Orochimaru; Nagato vs Minato; Tobi vs Itachi, etc.

PS: I voted for Jiraya, but I don't think he would lose to the MS techniques: IMO Kirin is what would give Sasuke the win.

Amaterasu could burn too fast, and the hair wouldn't have blocked him from getting burned. If it's like steel as people claim, then Jiraiya can't really cut it, can he? Amaterasu was able to burn a fire-breathing toad's stomach and overpower a kaaton jutsu easily, it can beat Jiraiya's hair defense. Even his hair jutsu isn't impregnable as Orochimaru was able to bite Jiraiya's neck when he used that jutsu.

[jdw]

If Amaterasu is burning the hair, and Jiriaya extends it, he has bought himself some time to cut/break the hair (or have Ma/Pa cut or break it for him). Of course Amaterasu is still burning the whiole time he is trying to do this, but it is not like Amaterasu always burns at a rapid pace, engulfing everything it touches within 1 second. During the Kage summit, Raikage didn't burn to death in 1 second (he had raiton armor), nor did the Samurai who was standing on the side (he did not have raiton armor, it seems). The amaterasu didn't even burn through his ordinary armor after quite a bit of time burning. He was just there, chilling, and it wasn't like the heat from the fire took him out either. The fact that Amaterasu can burn fast on occasion is no reason to assume it will burn fast on a select occasion. It is just possible that it will burn fast, not manga fact, imo.

[M3J]

Did Amaterasu even hit Raikage long enough? The samurai not being burned by Amaterasu can be explained by Sasuke not focusing on the Amaterasu as he was looking around for Raikage. If Itachi was able to burn a hole through a fire-breathing toad's stomach or intestines with Amaterasu within a minute, Sasuke - who was stated to have more powerful eyes and better mastery of Amaterasu - should be able to be just as quick with Amaterasu. Itachi while focusing on Sasuke's "body" managed to burn it pretty quickly.

Once again though, how can Jiraiya cut his hair off if it's like steel? Can his Sage Mode (if he was even given a chance to get into Sage Mode) let him? He's strong in Sage Mode, but is he strong enough to cut off something that can resist Amaterasu, especially without touching it?

I still want to know how Sasuke would let Jiraiya get into Sage Mode. The fact that Jiraiya was against Animal Realm made it easy for him to get into Sage MOde as all he needed to do was be on a summon and let it block and dodge attacks from other summons. If Deva or Asura was attacking, Jiraiya may not have been able to get into Sage Mode. Sasuke would be hard to hit for a summon and could easily get on top of the summon and attack Jiraiya, who'd need to stop focusing in order to fight Sasuke.

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Plus, it's kinda stupid comparing Kakashi's feat against Pain with Jiraiya's. Jiraiya fought against Hungry Ghost, Animal, and Human Realms. He basically was suited to fighting them with what being able to summon big toads and having the chakra. Kakashi had to fight two of hte most powerful Pain bodies, one who could do long range and one who could push away attacks and people or pull people. Both had help, whether summons are part of ninjas or not, and both were impressive in their own ways.

IMO it makes better sense to compare Raikage and Killerbee against Sasuke. I think Killerbee did better as he was up against four shinobi on his own and still had the upperhand, although he didn't go up against Susano'o, fully healed Sasuke, or Sasuke with more mastery over his Mangekyo.

[Rikudou King]

Amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes. We saw that it could incinerate an object in moments. Not just that, but we also saw that Amaterasu could be shot over a wide range. So not only would Jiraiya be caught in it, but he and the area he's in would be completely covered in the flames.

[jdw]

Did Amaterasu even hit Raikage long enough? The samurai not being burned by Amaterasu can be explained by Sasuke not focusing on the Amaterasu as he was looking around for Raikage. If Itachi was able to burn a hole through a fire-breathing toad's stomach or intestines with Amaterasu within a minute, Sasuke - who was stated to have more powerful eyes and better mastery of Amaterasu - should be able to be just as quick with Amaterasu. Itachi while focusing on Sasuke's "body" managed to burn it pretty quickly.

Once again though, how can Jiraiya cut his hair off if it's like steel? Can his Sage Mode (if he was even given a chance to get into Sage Mode) let him? He's strong in Sage Mode, but is he strong enough to cut off something that can resist Amaterasu, especially without touching it?

I still want to know how Sasuke would let Jiraiya get into Sage Mode. The fact that Jiraiya was against Animal Realm made it easy for him to get into Sage MOde as all he needed to do was be on a summon and let it block and dodge attacks from other summons. If Deva or Asura was attacking, Jiraiya may not have been able to get into Sage Mode. Sasuke would be hard to hit for a summon and could easily get on top of the summon and attack Jiraiya, who'd need to stop focusing in order to fight Sasuke.

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Plus, it's kinda stupid comparing Kakashi's feat against Pain with Jiraiya's. Jiraiya fought against Hungry Ghost, Animal, and Human Realms. He basically was suited to fighting them with what being able to summon big toads and having the chakra. Kakashi had to fight two of hte most powerful Pain bodies, one who could do long range and one who could push away attacks and people or pull people. Both had help, whether summons are part of ninjas or not, and both were impressive in their own ways.

IMO it makes better sense to compare Raikage and Killerbee against Sasuke. I think Killerbee did better as he was up against four shinobi on his own and still had the upperhand, although he didn't go up against Susano'o, fully healed Sasuke, or Sasuke with more mastery over his Mangekyo.

Why would Sasuke have to let Jiraiya do it? Jiraiya can buy time using summons', he can use the terrain to his advantage to buy time (especially if there is water nearby). When it comes to Sasuke v. Jiraiya (before Sasuke's EMS), I think they are fairly close, basically 50/50, but someone has to win and I think it would be Jiraiya. If they fight 100 times, I expect Jiraiya to win 51, not Sasuke.

The hair does not have to have great resistance to Amaterasu, just buy time, like the steel on the samurai, which survived a massive amaterasu (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+463+-+Sasuke+vs+Raikage&page=13&next=true). The armor didn't have great resistance, but it bought him time to be saved (he was on fire for a while!!1 (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+464+-+The+Power+Of+Darkness&page=5&next=true)). I am sure jiraiya could thrash that armor, and that was enough resistance for Amaterasu. As for Jiraiya breaking steel in sage mode, I am sure he can. But, assuming he cannot for the sake of argument, if Jiraiya is in Sage mode then Pa is there, and the hair would be chopped easily (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+376+-+Child+Of+Prophecy&page=8&next=true), imo.

[M3J]

Like I said, Sasuke can get on top of the summons and attack Jiraiya as the summons can't hit him while he can jump up and climb up the summons. Sasuke has shown ability to jump up higher than normal, and that was right after when he finally mastered the tree climbing exercise.

How can he use water nearby? Even if Jiraiya did hide under water (and not drown, lulz), Sasuke could just infuse lightning and shock Jiraiya. Wasn't lightning shown to do that?

However, Sasuke was not focusing on the Amaterasu on the samurai, hence why the steel on the samurai survived a massive Amaterasu. Whenever we saw a user focus on Amaterasu, Itachi on the stomach covering the window or on Sasuke's body, it burned quickly. Whenever we saw a user not focus on Amaterasu, Raikage's arm getting Amaterasu on it or samurai's armor getting hit with Amaterasu, it didn't burn through anything. So if Jiraiya was trying to summon Ma and Pa, Sasuke can just use Amaterasu on Jiraiya, which would have better chances if JIraiya's on top of a toad since he can't see a thing. Plus, Jiraiya would not be able to react fast enough anyway, so hair jutsu is pointless. Raikage and Sasuke reacted because they knew about Amaterasu and knew it was coming; Jiraiya would have no knowledge of Amaterasu and most likely even Mangekyo. The no knowledge of Amaterasu is manga fact, by the way, as Jiraiya did not know what the black flame was. If he did learn about it later on, he did not tell Naruto, which was rude of him!

There's a difference between squeezing something with strength of steel and squeezing a living thing whose flesh is its only protection. Plus, wouldn't Jiraiya's hair still be his hair, not actual steel? If so, then Amaterasu will have an easier time burning through.

[jdw]

Like I said, Sasuke can get on top of the summons and attack Jiraiya as the summons can't hit him while he can jump up and climb up the summons. Sasuke has shown ability to jump up higher than normal, and that was right after when he finally mastered the tree climbing exercise.

How can he use water nearby? Even if Jiraiya did hide under water (and not drown, lulz), Sasuke could just infuse lightning and shock Jiraiya. Wasn't lightning shown to do that?

However, Sasuke was not focusing on the Amaterasu on the samurai, hence why the steel on the samurai survived a massive Amaterasu. Whenever we saw a user focus on Amaterasu, Itachi on the stomach covering the window or on Sasuke's body, it burned quickly. Whenever we saw a user not focus on Amaterasu, Raikage's arm getting Amaterasu on it or samurai's armor getting hit with Amaterasu, it didn't burn through anything. So if Jiraiya was trying to summon Ma and Pa, Sasuke can just use Amaterasu on Jiraiya, which would have better chances if JIraiya's on top of a toad since he can't see a thing. Plus, Jiraiya would not be able to react fast enough anyway, so hair jutsu is pointless. Raikage and Sasuke reacted because they knew about Amaterasu and knew it was coming; Jiraiya would have no knowledge of Amaterasu and most likely even Mangekyo. The no knowledge of Amaterasu is manga fact, by the way, as Jiraiya did not know what the black flame was. If he did learn about it later on, he did not tell Naruto, which was rude of him!

There's a difference between squeezing something with strength of steel and squeezing a living thing whose flesh is its only protection. Plus, wouldn't Jiraiya's hair still be his hair, not actual steel? If so, then Amaterasu will have an easier time burning through.

I am not sure if Sasuke was shown to be able to immediately shock an entire body of water and incapacitate people in the water.

I am also not sure if people have a decent grasp of Jiraiya's abilities. Jiraiya possesses a toad that will allow him to be undetectable in the water and complete sage mode.


Hiding in a Toad Technique (蝦蟇隠れの術, Gamagakure no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
User: Jiraiya

Using a toad's mouth as cover
A waterside infiltration technique!!

The user of this infiltration technique summons a "Diving Toad" (潜り蝦蟇, Moguri Gama) from Mt. Myouboku and hides themselves inside its stomach.
This toad can dive up to 100 metres in fresh water. It is particularly effective when infiltrating an enemy camp surrounded by a lake or river. Inside the stomach is also a chakra-blocking barrier space, protecting the user from detection-type ninjutsu.

[picture of Jiraiya's arm protruding from the Diving Toad's mouth]
[picture of Jiraiya getting out ot the Diving Toad]
↑→Jiraiya crawls out of the barrier space inside the stomach of the "Diving Toad". This is the moment one needs to be most careful for detection-type ninjutsu, but...

Jiraiya also has the toad barrier jutsu used against Pain:


Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison (結界・蝦蟇瓢牢, Kekkai: Gama Hyourou)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Supplementary
User: Jiraiya

In the gourd is a tranquil and terrifying barrier space where no escape is possible.

After summoning a "Gourd Toad" (瓢箪蝦蟇, Hyoutan Gama) from Mt. Myouboku, one drags the target into its stomach. There exists a "barrier space" that is isolated from the outside world. It is also possible to push the target into an acid lake and dissolve them.

[picture of the inside of the Gourd Toad]
→Within the toad's stomach, silence rules. However, the lake is filled with a powerful acid!!

↓At the contractor's command, it is possible to enter or exit in an instant.
[picture of Jiraiya exiting the Gourd Toad]


On Amaterasu, the flame burns hotter than the sun on its own. It was never said to burn at 1 degree if no one is concentrating, but at the heat of the sun if the caster pays attention. Even with the heat of the sun, the POS armor survived. There is no mention of concentration in the manga or databook, it seems to me like something created to explain when Amaterasu loses.

As for the squeezing flesh or whatever, Pa cut through the summon and the metal pipes in the background, if you look closely. The page even says "cutting."

[Rikudou King]

We have seen clear examples of Amaterasu becoming more powerful when the user is concentrating. Not only does it burn faster, but the amount of flames cover a far greater area. On the other hand, we have seen Amaterasu act dormant when left own it's own.

[jdw]

Amaterasu was not dormant when left on its own to burn a huge amount of trees over a great area during the Uchiha fight. Many Uchiha fans spam that page as a point of pride. Fire burns and Amaterasu does that, even when left alone. All of this from catching a small area of a tree and no concentration:


http://oi52.tinypic.com/2s8fiac.jpg

[Rikudou King]

It's dormant compared to when the user concentrates and it fast enough to spread over a huge area instantly (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v45/c415/2.html).

[M3J]

I am not sure if Sasuke was shown to be able to immediately shock an entire body of water and incapacitate people in the water.
Who said he had to shock an entire body of water? Didn't Suigetsu get shocked when Bee hit him with some raiton attack? Maybe it was just Sasuke (http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-14/naruto/chapter-412.html) when he used chidori on Bee while his fist was stuck in Suigetsu's stomach.


I am also not sure if people have a decent grasp of Jiraiya's abilities. Jiraiya possesses a toad that will allow him to be undetectable in the water and complete sage mode.
Only if Jiraiya is able to get in the toad. Sasuke could stop him, unless the toad is able to suck Jiraiya in. I forgot, to be honest.




Jiraiya also has the toad barrier jutsu used against Pain:
If Sasuke gets sucked in too, then we see that the Pain sucked in endured the acid lake. Sasuke could endure it as well. Since there is a chakra-blocking barrier, Animal Realm couldn't get the chakra it needed from Nagato and thus fell.

Besides, what's to stop Sasuke from stabbing the toads like Danzou did? I don't think there's water since it'd give Jiraiya an edge, thus he can't use water to retreat. He can certainly summon either toads to hide into, but they can be stabbed as well. If they reverse-summon themselves, it's an automatic loss for JIraiya.





On Amaterasu, the flame burns hotter than the sun on its own. It was never said to burn at 1 degree if no one is concentrating, but at the heat of the sun if the caster pays attention. Even with the heat of the sun, the POS armor survived. There is no mention of concentration in the manga or databook, it seems to me like something created to explain when Amaterasu loses.
It was never said the flame burned through stuff on its own, just that it burned hotter than the sun. While there's no mention of concentration, we see Itachi's Amaterasu do the most damage when he concentrates while any Amaterasu he or Sasuke does without concentrating does little damage. Databooks aren't always good to rely on, and it's kinda weak people resort to that rather than manga feats to say this or that character can win.

------------------------------------------------------

Though, why is it impossible for Sasuke to touch Jiraiya while it's possible for Jiraiya to touch Sasuke to turn him into a toad? Sasuke's Sharingan and speed and reflexes make him nearly impossible for Jiraiya to touch, especially if Jiraiya does doton seal and tries to touch Sasuke; Sasuke will be aware and dodge that. If Jiraiya tries, Sasuke can just ram a chidori through Jiraiya's heart.

[jdw]

Who said he had to shock an entire body of water? Didn't Suigetsu get shocked when Bee hit him with some raiton attack? Maybe it was just Sasuke (http://www.mangareader.net/93-417-14/naruto/chapter-412.html) when he used chidori on Bee while his fist was stuck in Suigetsu's stomach.


Only if Jiraiya is able to get in the toad. Sasuke could stop him, unless the toad is able to suck Jiraiya in. I forgot, to be honest.

If Sasuke gets sucked in too, then we see that the Pain sucked in endured the acid lake. Sasuke could endure it as well. Since there is a chakra-blocking barrier, Animal Realm couldn't get the chakra it needed from Nagato and thus fell.

Besides, what's to stop Sasuke from stabbing the toads like Danzou did? I don't think there's water since it'd give Jiraiya an edge, thus he can't use water to retreat. He can certainly summon either toads to hide into, but they can be stabbed as well. If they reverse-summon themselves, it's an automatic loss for JIraiya.

It was never said the flame burned through stuff on its own, just that it burned hotter than the sun. While there's no mention of concentration, we see Itachi's Amaterasu do the most damage when he concentrates while any Amaterasu he or Sasuke does without concentrating does little damage. Databooks aren't always good to rely on, and it's kinda weak people resort to that rather than manga feats to say this or that character can win.

------------------------------------------------------

Though, why is it impossible for Sasuke to touch Jiraiya while it's possible for Jiraiya to touch Sasuke to turn him into a toad? Sasuke's Sharingan and speed and reflexes make him nearly impossible for Jiraiya to touch, especially if Jiraiya does doton seal and tries to touch Sasuke; Sasuke will be aware and dodge that. If Jiraiya tries, Sasuke can just ram a chidori through Jiraiya's heart.

Nagato was able to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra by using his chakra through the rod while Jiraiya was in the barrier. How did animal Pain lose to that? I think it lost to the stomach acid.

It isn't impossible for Sasuke to touch Jiraiya as all. Clearly I am not arguing that if I say Sasuke could win almost 50% of the time. Sasuke might stop jiraiya from getting in the toad, but he might not as well.

Databooks have a purpose and do it quite well. It is not my issue if you dislike them. I read them and use them. And it works, imo.

As for the terrain, I think the mods stated that they are ordinary, with bodies of water, etc.

[M3J]

Animal Realm probably used the last of its chakra to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra. If it was the stomach acid, it wouldn't have been able to stab Jiraiya or even make it out of the acid alive.

Stats mean nothing though, otherwise Naruto would lose most of his fights. Kiba was faster than Naruto, but Naruto still managed to dodge most of his attacks. Neji and Kakuzu have higher intelligence than Naruto and still managed to get outsmarted. Raikage most likely is faster than Sasuke, and possibly Killerbee as well, but Sasuke still managed to dodge most of their attacks.

[DementedKirby]

Animal Realm probably used the last of its chakra to disrupt Jiraiya's chakra. If it was the stomach acid, it wouldn't have been able to stab Jiraiya or even make it out of the acid alive.

Stats mean nothing though, otherwise Naruto would lose most of his fights. Kiba was faster than Naruto, but Naruto still managed to dodge most of his attacks. Neji and Kakuzu have higher intelligence than Naruto and still managed to get outsmarted. Raikage most likely is faster than Sasuke, and possibly Killerbee as well, but Sasuke still managed to dodge most of their attacks.

You forgot to mention that Konohamaru Rasengan'ed Hell Realm ;).

That's why the manga's amazing. You can never really tell how a battle's gonna go. Stats and rank never really meant anything in Naruto. Hell, Naruto schooled both Neji and Kakuzu. However, I don't think it was so much of Naruto outsmarting them as it was them underestimating him. Had they taken him seriously, he would've been a goner. When Kiba took him seriously he would've won the match had Naruto not farted point-blank in Kiba's nose. Epic!

Oh! By the way, I'm sporting a new sig. What do you guys think?

[xXan]

You forgot to mention that Konohamaru Rasengan'ed Hell Realm ;).

That's why the manga's amazing. You can never really tell how a battle's gonna go. Stats and rank never really meant anything in Naruto. Hell, Naruto schooled both Neji and Kakuzu. However, I don't think it was so much of Naruto outsmarting them as it was them underestimating him. Had they taken him seriously, he would've been a goner. When Kiba took him seriously he would've won the match had Naruto not farted point-blank in Kiba's nose. Epic!

Oh! By the way, I'm sporting a new sig. What do you guys think?

No... Konohamaru + the entire village of Konoha rasengan'ed Pein. Get your facts straight as it is a big diference.

[benelori]

No... Konohamaru + the entire village of Konoha rasengan'ed Pein. Get your facts straight as it is a big diference.

Not really...Konohamaru didn't know anything about that Pein body...he thought of a plan, executed it and saved Iruka...that little battle was not really part of the entire deal of bringing down Nagato...

[jdw]

Konohamaru bravely faced Hell Pain on his own, after seeing him wtfpwn a few other adult shinobi, them murked him on the spot.

[xXan]

Not really...Konohamaru didn't know anything about that Pein body...he thought of a plan, executed it and saved Iruka...that little battle was not really part of the entire deal of bringing down Nagato...

I never said anything about knowing something about Pein.
Let's see why that was a Konoha + Konohamaru feat.

1- Konohamaru had a distraction so he can make a clone BEFORE engaging Pein in battle. We all know all level of ninja's got fooled by clones, its imposible to tell the diference (including Itachi, Kakuzu etc). So Konohamaru had help from the Open Pervert (or closed i don't remember lol). Anyway some ninjas died so he can live and then Iruka got him the time as i said above.
2-Why is the entire village feat? Well Nagato was fighting the ENTIRE village at the same time. Imagine playing 1000 chess games at the same time(and having to make a move every second) and then 1 of those dudes stating he defeated you solo.

That was defenetly a Konoha and Konohamaru feat.


Konohamaru bravely faced Hell Pain on his own, after seeing him wtfpwn a few other adult shinobi, them murked him on the spot.

I never said Konohamaru is not brave, he is, sure. All i said is that feat does not belong to him alone. Read above for more details.

[3c]

Let's discuss things that hold a relevance to the actual tournament please.

[xXan]

We get the final fight todat right?

[benelori]

We get the final fight todat right?

The polls close around 10 PM our time

[DaHeroic1]

I've been thinking that for the next tournmant it should be tag team based. That would really make the debates very interesting and it would end some of the complaints and faults of the 1 on 1 fights. Obviously the top fighters like Naruto,Itachi, Minato,Nagato,etc can't be on the same teams so for fighters that are at the highest level of the top tier could be paired with a fighter who don't exactly match up to make things even out. We could also get around the speed blitzes, or being 1 shotted with genjutsu as their will be a partner to provide support and break them out. Imagine Orochimaru with Itachi, Kakashi and Naruto, and the funniest team which would bring both fanboys together Jiraiya and Sasuke lol. Also for the characters with less exposure like Mei,Darui,Tsunade could be teamed with the likes of Minato,Madara,Nagato, etc. It might be farfetched but the debates would be definently something different from what we're all use to seeing.

[DementedKirby]

The polls close around 10 PM our time

Holy smokes! I still gotta vote in the Minato vs. Itachi! I'm gonna probably end up flipping a coin! It's like choosing between two of my children! It's unacceptable! :p


I've been thinking that for the next tournmant it should be tag team based. That would really make the debates very interesting and it would end some of the complaints and faults of the 1 on 1 fights. Obviously the top fighters like Naruto,Itachi, Minato,Nagato,etc can't be on the same teams so for fighters that are at the highest level of the top tier could be paired with a fighter who don't exactly match up to make things even out. We could also get around the speed blitzes, or being 1 shotted with genjutsu as their will be a partner to provide support and break them out. Imagine Orochimaru with Itachi, Kakashi and Naruto, and the funniest team which would bring both fanboys together Jiraiya and Sasuke lol. Also for the characters with less exposure like Mei,Darui,Tsunade could be teamed with the likes of Minato,Madara,Nagato, etc. It might be farfetched but the debates would be definently something different from what we're all use to seeing.

Yeah, but then whoever gets paired up with Shikamaru gets an insta-win :p. It could even be a tournament where it's a low-tier ninja paired up with a top-tier ninja. They can paired at random from like a sorting hat. Oh man, can you imagine the heinousness? Kimimarou + Hidan. Minato alone. Itachi alone. It's gonna be legen- wait for it... DARY!!! :D

[DaHeroic1]

Yeah, but then whoever gets paired up with Shikamaru gets an insta-win :p. It could even be a tournament where it's a low-tier ninja paired up with a top-tier ninja. They can paired at random from like a sorting hat. Oh man, can you imagine the heinousness? Kimimarou + Hidan. Minato alone. Itachi alone. It's gonna be legen- wait for it... DARY!!! :D

Hadn't thought of the low tier paired with high tier. It would make even the more worthless ninja of the low tier useful. Imagine Tenten throwing minato's kunai's for him lol. At least then she would have some worth.:tem

[Rikudou King]

Naruto and Minato win over Jiraiya and Itachi. The final match between father and son is here.

[Nicholas.Sama]

Holy shit! That fight was actually close. Minato didn't win by a landslide!
I'm totally satisfied :amuse

[Rikudou King]

It was even closer a few days ago. The difference between Minato and Itachi was only about two or three people.

[M3J]

Anyway, I'm glad it wasn't a landslide victory as well. Minato definitely doesn't deserve such honor against Itachi, though he does deserve to win as much as Itachi does. Fanbase was evident for both sides based on the posts as well. Though, too many assumed MInato's too fast to be put in a genjutsu when all it'd take is a finger or an eye contact no matter how fast Minato moves. Sasuke was able to put Bee in genjutsu while they were moving. Minato always look at his opponents in his eyes.

And not looking at Uchiha in the eyes thing was a horrible argument. Out of Chiyo, enemy villages of Konoha, Kakashi, and so many others, it was only Gai who came up with that method to fight against Kakashi.

[huynhlan]

Anyway, I'm glad it wasn't a landslide victory as well. Minato definitely doesn't deserve such honor against Itachi, though he does deserve to win as much as Itachi does. Fanbase was evident for both sides based on the posts as well. Though, too many assumed MInato's too fast to be put in a genjutsu when all it'd take is a finger or an eye contact no matter how fast Minato moves. Sasuke was able to put Bee in genjutsu while they were moving. Minato always look at his opponents in his eyes.

And not looking at Uchiha in the eyes thing was a horrible argument. Out of Chiyo, enemy villages of Konoha, Kakashi, and so many others, it was only Gai who came up with that method to fight against Kakashi.

I don't know about that, the senju seem to another clan that created some form of method to combat the almighty sharigan, and A wasn't really paralyze when he stare sasuke down, so unless more info on how A and senju deal with genjustu than it's really dificult to said that the only method to fight uchiha is avoiding the eyes when alone cause harashima did it by himself a few time against the strongest uchiha and yet he didn't die in those battles.

[Josear XIII]

So... we'll have a fight between Itachi and jiraya to see who gets the 3rd place?

[benelori]

So... we'll have a fight between Itachi and jiraya to see who gets the 3rd place?

No we won't...this final is the last match of the tournament. Enjoy it while it lasts. After that we will have the Konohagakure Arena back, and IIRC there is already a thread about that.

[Silvers Rayleigh]

Like I said a couple times this tourney was a waste because minato will win no matter what.
Minato will win this, just wait and see.

[jorped]

Like I said a couple times this tourney was a waste because minato will win no matter what.
Minato will win this, just wait and see.

I actually think that Naruto is going to take this one. I don't find weird that Minato got to this place, though i would also understand if he had for example been defeated by Itachi. What i found shameful was the fact that Jiraya defeated Sasuke. People can say what they want, but if that happened, it wasn't because Jiraya is stronger but yes the fact that a lot of people hate Sasuke. It would have been much more interesting Naruto vs Sasuke fight on the previous round. But this also doesn't matter much, cuz what matters is the fact that we are going to see it on the manga pretty soon :p

[M3J]

I don't know about that, the senju seem to another clan that created some form of method to combat the almighty sharigan, and A wasn't really paralyze when he stare sasuke down, so unless more info on how A and senju deal with genjustu than it's really dificult to said that the only method to fight uchiha is avoiding the eyes when alone cause harashima did it by himself a few time against the strongest uchiha and yet he didn't die in those battles.
Where was it said they created some form? Maybe it was the same form as other villages used: one against Sharingan = running away, two against Sharingan = one to distract and one to sneak attack from the behind. Did Sasuke use genjutsu on A though? We know he used it on Shi.

Hashirama looked at Madara in the eyes though, we see him looking right at Madara in a flashback panel. Madara was never said to be good at instantaneous genjutsu, and the first one people thought of when they didn't know about Zetsu impersonation no jutsu was Itachi, not Tobi.


Like I said a couple times this tourney was a waste because minato will win no matter what.
Minato will win this, just wait and see.

I always said it was either Minato or Naruto that'd win. It doesn't matter how superior to Minato Itachi or anyone else can be, but for some reason Minato's speed and Hiraishin give him an edge even if the opponent can keep up. :-_- Not to mention, Minato has a major fanbase that'll make up stuff and fake hype him over characters that actually deserve more hype or victory. I didn't know more than 10 people voted for Minato compared to Itachi.

[jdw]

Anyone can predict strong people will win while setting up an excuse for their favorites losing. "OMG, my gaiz will lose to de udder strong gaiz, inb4theygetwtfpwned."

In the end, it is time for you guys to choke back your tears and move on. Lose with some dignity from time to time. In the finals we have an epic legend and a legend in the making. Both deserving, imo.

[M3J]

You can say that because the ones that you like got far ahead even with horrible arguments, which you don't care about since it's your side. Call it crying all you want, we're just stating the truth: it's fanboyism that let most of the characters like JIraiya and Hashirama win. Jiraiya is my favorite, yet I voted for Sasuke because he was clearly able to beat Jiraiya, yet Jiraiya had horrible arguments and fanboy votes going for him.

Proof? Look at the posts there. It's evident. "Oh hey, it's Jiraiya! He'll win because he can get out of any genjutsu and use his hair to block anything!!!11" Right, his hair wouldn't block Amaterasu or stall it long enough if Sasuke focuses his Amaterasu. Minato and Jiraiya get fanfic plot no jutsu on their side, which leads them to victory.

I mean, people even said Naruto would one-shot Kisame. Kisame was hit by speedblitzing Naruto and was still able to run. He was hit by Gate 6 or 7 Gai's punch and still able to move. He was locked up after being punched again by Gai and was still able to break open the lock, and people say Naruto would one-shot him. Bad arguments and ignoring manga facts and hyping a character while downplaying the opponent is what got me mad, not my favorites losing. Most of my favorites even moved on to the finals or semifinals - Jiraiya, Naruto, Itachi, and Minato.

It's not my fault I'm unbiased enough to call out bullshit even on characters that I love. People have overhyped Minato into being immune to genjutsu, breaking out of genjutsu, or avoiding genjutsu despite no proof of previous two, and the fact that Sasuke was able to put Bee in a genjutsu despite both moving. Jiraiya's hair jutsu has an opening, as shown when Orochimaru bit him in the neck. Kakashi isn't gonna use Kamui early on as an offensive against Jiraiya when he has little information on Jiraiya, because it's not in his personality. Yet somehow, Kakashi and Itachi get dumbed up.

While MInato and Naruto are deserving, there are some fights they should not have won, at least not so easily. And I actually like Minato and fanboy for Naruto, but whatever. Illogical arguments for a character results in their victory, from what I've seen here.

[ninjabot]

What!? Minato won?! Really!?!

Wow! What a well debated and thought-out group of posts that lead to that result! I have a new respect for the posters of Mangahelp--

...lmao. I can't do it. Damn. Never underestimate the power of wrong people in great numbers. Because when you're wrong, if you've got enough equally wrong people, your collective opinions eventually become right.



You can say that because the ones that you like got far ahead even with horrible arguments, which you don't care about since it's your side. Call it crying all you want, we're just stating the truth: it's fanboyism that let most of the characters like JIraiya and Hashirama win. Jiraiya is my favorite, yet I voted for Sasuke because he was clearly able to beat Jiraiya, yet Jiraiya had horrible arguments and fanboy votes going for him.


And now Minato joins that list. Though it's a waste of time explaining all this. It's nothing that they didn't know and feigning ignorance is either a play at trolling or inability to accept their hero wouldn't win otherwise. Losing with dignity is saved for those who lose fairly.

[Naruffy]

What!? Minato won?! Really!?!

Wow! What a well debated and thought-out group of posts that lead to that result! I have a new respect for the posters of Mangahelp--

...lmao. I can't do it. Damn. Never underestimate the power of wrong people in great numbers. Because when you're wrong, if you've got enough equally wrong people, your collective opinions eventually become right.


No-one is wrong or right. Maybe your side had more facts to bolster your opinion that Itachi would win, but that dosen't make the opinions of those who thought Minato would win wrong.

[Nicholas.Sama]

What!? Minato won?! Really!?!

Wow! What a well debated and thought-out group of posts that lead to that result! I have a new respect for the posters of Mangahelp--

...lmao. I can't do it. Damn. Never underestimate the power of wrong people in great numbers. Because when you're wrong, if you've got enough equally wrong people, your collective opinions eventually become right.



Hey, look on the bright side. Itachi was the only person to lose to Minato without suffering a humiliating fan-induced landslide. He only lost by 23 votes.

And considering some of the arguments we had to deal with, (Kage Level, Genjutsu Immunity, Genjutsu Dodge, Tsukuyomi Tank, Chakra Exhaustion, and one of my favorites, Killing Intent-Induced Stupidity)I think we did very well.

[kelv015]

Funny how suddenly there is so much hating on Minato for winning versus Itachi, but I didn't read anyone complain when Itachi beat Madara....I'm still wondering exactly how Itachi would beat Madara since that man has way more knowledge on the Sharingan, MS & EMS than Itachi, and he's got Sharingan & Uchiha Blood to stop Itachi's Trump Card in Tsukuyomi...but oh well. I thought that it was already known that ''lurkers'' would actually be the ones to decide the result of this tournament...well then, let the hating continue.

[M3J]

It's obvious Itachi has fanbase on his side as well. Though, I may not be considered his true fan since I didn't vote for Itachi in Itachi vs. Tobi, but I didn't vote for Tobi either. I think Itachi is that powerful but not powerful enough. I'd have voted for Minato in a heartbeat if it was him vs. Tobi, though who knows how Minato would have fared against Madara.

To be fair though, we did see some decent or good arguments from Minato's supporters. It's not like with Jiraiya, where there was ridiculous statements, reasons, and arguments. And unlike with Jiraiya vs. Sasuke, we got fanboy posts for both sides in Itachi vs. Minato. It's not really farfetched to think Minato can beat Itachi.

The thing is, Itachi's Tsukuyomi can be hard for anyone to break through while they're experiencing pain. Sasuke didn't really experience continuous pain like Kakashi did, so he could break out. I don't think Tsukuyomi is Itachi's trump card, that's more a description for Susano'o, as seeing as how it's used for last resort.


I do think it's absurd that Minato got that many vote though. If he won by less than ten votes, then yeah, but about twenty-three is too overwhelming. Though now that we found out Nagato has no time limit to his Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin, he can actually beat Minato.

[Prince Sasuke]

Funny how suddenly there is so much hating on Minato for winning versus Itachi, but I didn't read anyone complain when Itachi beat Madara....I'm still wondering exactly how Itachi would beat Madara since that man has way more knowledge on the Sharingan, MS & EMS than Itachi, and he's got Sharingan & Uchiha Blood to stop Itachi's Trump Card in Tsukuyomi...but oh well. I thought that it was already known that ''lurkers'' would actually be the ones to decide the result of this tournament...well then, let the hating continue.

I agree, Itachi should never have gotten passed Madara, but Minato should never gotten passed Nagato..... but since they did.
No one complain about Madara or Nagato because there fanbase is average at best, people didn't care even though these two should been in the semi finals, not Itachi and Minato.

Itachi vs Minato.... could definitely go either way, both very powerful strong opponents. I choose Itachi cause he is more versatile, Minato is basically a one trick pony BUT his one trick is the best I've seen... overall I'm not satisfied... but not disappointed either.

[Rikudou King]

I don't know about that, the senju seem to another clan that created some form of method to combat the almighty sharigan, and A wasn't really paralyze when he stare sasuke down, so unless more info on how A and senju deal with genjustu than it's really dificult to said that the only method to fight uchiha is avoiding the eyes when alone cause harashima did it by himself a few time against the strongest uchiha and yet he didn't die in those battles. It came down to numbers it seems. We were informed by Chiyo that the common method of fighting an Uchiha was to outnumber them, so that when one person was caught in a genjutsu the other would have the opening to attack. With only a small portion of the Uchiha clan possessing the Sharingan, outnumbering one wouldn't have been that much of a challenge. It would have been even more so in regards to the MS and EMS, which an even tinier portion of the Uchiha clans had and that only appeared recently in the Senju and Uchiha rivalry. So while the Sharingan and it's upgrades were powerful, they would have only been a small part of the actual Uchiha forces and thus the majority of ninjas wouldn't have had to face in battle. In addition, just because they wielded the Sharingan doesn't mean that they would have always made use of genjutsu in battle. They could have very well been like Sasuke and Madara, who prefer their other abilities to using genjutsu. So there were several factors that would have allowed others to fight an Uchiha without necessary having to have some way to avoid genjutsu. In fact, Chiyo's words pretty much imply that there was no real way to escape a Sharingan based genjutsu on your own.

As for Ee, it's questionable to exactly what happen. It could very well have been that Sasuke didn't attempt a genjutsu in the first place or that Ee's enhanced reflexes allowed him to break the genjutsu as soon as Sasuke put him in it.


Funny how suddenly there is so much hating on Minato for winning versus Itachi, but I didn't read anyone complain when Itachi beat Madara....I'm still wondering exactly how Itachi would beat Madara since that man has way more knowledge on the Sharingan, MS & EMS than Itachi, and he's got Sharingan & Uchiha Blood to stop Itachi's Trump Card in Tsukuyomi...but oh well. I thought that it was already known that ''lurkers'' would actually be the ones to decide the result of this tournament...well then, let the hating continue. It's because Madara admitted in the series itself that if Itachi had the right info, he would have been able to kill him. In addition, we pretty much seen that Madara's abilities aren't exactly foolproof. In every battle we have seen from him, he's been injured and stuff. So it all came down to exactly how fast Itachi could figure out Madara's abilities, since once he had that, he would have the right information to finish Madara.

[xXan]

Well it looks like Itachi won the fight in a stomp based on any logical approach but Minato won the popularity contest. Can't change that.


Now for the finals we are going to see who wins the popularity contest as the fight its obviously going to Naruto.

[ninjabot]

No-one is wrong or right. Maybe your side had more facts to bolster your opinion that Itachi would win, but that dosen't make the opinions of those who thought Minato would win wrong.


Yeah, we did. And yeah, it does, based solely on the sound thrashing of the debates in favor of Minato. The defense against Genjutsu was flatout horrid. The opinion that he would tank Tsukuyomi or simply not ever look him in the eyes? Come on. Gotta love your logic though.

"Yeah, you guys may have reached the finish line first, but that doesn't mean you beat the guy you left behind."

"Yeah, you KO'd that guy in the 6th round, but that doesn't mean you won the fight."

"Yeah, you scored higher than he did on the test, but that doesn't mean you deserve a higher grade."

God I'm ready for the regular arena thread to come back. No more polls. If you're rebuttal falls flat on it's face there's no lurkers there to bolster it and prop it up with votes.

[huynhlan]

It came down to numbers it seems. We were informed by Chiyo that the common method of fighting an Uchiha was to outnumber them, so that when one person was caught in a genjutsu the other would have the opening to attack. With only a small portion of the Uchiha clan possessing the Sharingan, outnumbering one wouldn't have been that much of a challenge. It would have been even more so in regards to the MS and EMS, which an even tinier portion of the Uchiha clans had and that only appeared recently in the Senju and Uchiha rivalry. So while the Sharingan and it's upgrades were powerful, they would have only been a small part of the actual Uchiha forces and thus the majority of ninjas wouldn't have had to face in battle. In addition, just because they wielded the Sharingan doesn't mean that they would have always made use of genjutsu in battle. They could have very well been like Sasuke and Madara, who prefer their other abilities to using genjutsu. So there were several factors that would have allowed others to fight an Uchiha without necessary having to have some way to avoid genjutsu. In fact, Chiyo's words pretty much imply that there was no real way to escape a Sharingan based genjutsu on your own.


I disagree ooniki pretty much talk about madara's genjustu that mean back then madra often uses genjutsu in his battle so it still stand harashima fought him several time and didn't die, also senju wouldn't be consider the uchiha's equal, if in every fight it something like two versues one, if they fight were like that, then people would be calling the senju weaker than the uchiha right now. Chiyo word imply that's the method people from other village other than konoha would use against sharigan's genjustu, also in the serie right now the only know senju left is tsunade so chiyo word might not included the senju. Also it seem like you seem to think if one with the sharigan then they could be consider as the strongest.



@xXan
I disagree with your " Itachi won the fight in a stomp based on any logical approach but Minato won the popularity contest." cause for one thing we saw minato goes face to face with an uchiha who posses powerful genjustu ooniki can vouch for him and we all saw how that battle when, yet we have yet to see itachi put someone as fast as A in a genjustu, has sasuke done it than your comment would have been accurate so right now I gotta dissagree with your comment.

[Naruffy]

Yeah, we did. And yeah, it does, based solely on the sound thrashing of the debates in favor of Minato. The defense against Genjutsu was flatout horrid. The opinion that he would tank Tsukuyomi or simply not ever look him in the eyes? Come on. Gotta love your logic though.

"Yeah, you guys may have reached the finish line first, but that doesn't mean you beat the guy you left behind."

"Yeah, you KO'd that guy in the 6th round, but that doesn't mean you won the fight."

"Yeah, you scored higher than he did on the test, but that doesn't mean you deserve a higher grade."

God I'm ready for the regular arena thread to come back. No more polls. If you're rebuttal falls flat on it's face there's no lurkers there to bolster it and prop it up with votes.

My logic makes perfect sense, because the tournament wasn't a competition between the users. It comes back to realizing that this was a popularity contest and not a competition and the results where predictable. If you don't like the way it turned out, either make the effort to get it changed or just get used to the fact that the more popular characters are going to win, no matter how clear it's made that one-side would absolutely destroy the other.

[Rikudou King]

I disagree ooniki pretty much talk about madara's genjustu that mean back then madra often uses genjutsu in his battle so it still stand harashima fought him several time and didn't die, also senju wouldn't be consider the uchiha's equal, if in every fight it something like two versues one, if they fight were like that, then people would be calling the senju weaker than the uchiha right now. Chiyo word imply that's the method people from other village other than konoha would use against sharigan's genjustu, also in the serie right now the only know senju left is tsunade so chiyo word might not included the senju. Also it seem like you seem to think if one with the sharigan then they could be consider as the strongest. Onoki mentioning Madara's genjutsu doesn't mean that Madara used it often or in battle itself. Madara waited until he had already won against Konan to use genjutsu. So Madara could very well have been like Sasuke, someone who didn't employ genjutsu that much. Why wouldn't they be considered equals? It wasn't able individual skills. It was about their past connection between the Rikudou Sannin's sons. And like I mentioned, as only a small portion of the Uchiha clan held the Sharingan, it wasn't as if teh senju had to outnumber every single Uchiha.

How does Chiyo words imply that it was only a method for people from other villages? She didn't say anything like "this is the way we Suna ninjas deal with it" or something. It was a general statement, meaning it likely was followed by everyone. Why wouldn't her words include the senju when they were the ones mainly dealing with the Uchiha clan. If they had a better method, it would have become known and spread to everyone else. Heck, if they had their own method, then surely someone from Konoha would have mentioned it by now. Surely Danzo, who was trained by Hashirama and Tobirama, would have known and made use of this secret anti-genjutsu method against Sasuke, instead of getting caught and being saved by his seal. The point being, it has been made clear how dangerous their genjutsus is by multiple ninjas and as far as we have seen, the only way to counter it besides being a Jinchuuriki or fellow Uchiha is to have someone to help.

[kelv015]

@ M3J: I actually voted for Tobi. Sharingan + Uchiha Blood (for now he's still Madara) = able to brak Tsukuyomi and with Izanagi he probably would've taken it. Minato-Tobi, the only problem I had with voting for Minato was Izanagi...that's can always be a game changer. The J-Man fight, it was obvious people just wanted to take Sasuke out of the tourney for hating his character, some arguments made looked to be from 5 year olds...really. Well, I said Tsukuyomi as his Trump Card cause with Minato, that really would be his Trump Card. While Susanoo would grant him defense and be able to seal anyone he touches...Minato ain't gonna be as egomaniac as Oro and let himself be impaled by such a huge sword. So if he were gonna beat Minato, it would be via Tsukuyomi only....imo. Well, at least it wasn't such an overwhelming landslide as was the case with Nagato... :/.

@ Prince Sasuke: Yeah, people don't really care about those two that much. I'll admit I was a bit hasty in voting (the only fight that I did not vote instantly was Yamato-Darui) and by the time I realized my vote for Minato was wrong....I also realized I couldn't change my vote :/

@ Rikudou King: Wait, really? Could you please send me a link to that chapter/panel? I really can't remember Madara saying that, maybe I skipped that page or something cause the only thing I remember was that once Itachi died he didn't have to worry about keeping his promise to Itachi.

[UchihaHunter]

http://www.mangareader.net/93-402-12/naruto/chapter-397.html

That's the page he's talking about; seeing as how Madara was taking off his mask to show Sasuke his face, I feel like him putting the mask back on means that he used Izanagi there to get away...but of course, there are any number of reasons why he was removing the mask, I suppose (like maybe he didn't think Sasuke would see the Sharingan that easily)

From Hisshouburaiken's translation

"Fortunately, I managed to keep a few secrets even from him...if I hadn't, I'd be dead right now."


From cnet's translation

"(But thankfully, even Itachi did not know everything there is to know about me... // ...Otherwise, I would have died.)"

[shuha27]

Bhasty voting for a character you don't like isn't called being a fanboy, just because M3J voted for Sasuke doesn't make him a fanboy.....He had a good reason to choose Sasuke over Jiraiya that isn't called being a fanboy. I like Jiraiya way more then Sasuke and I myself voted for Sasuke. Sasuke has the talent to beat Jiraiya. You should seriously stop basing so much assumptions on trivial things.

Anywho, what characters were you guys hoping to see in the finals?

[Rikudou Sennin]

Yeah, we did. And yeah, it does, based solely on the sound thrashing of the debates in favor of Minato. The defense against Genjutsu was flatout horrid. The opinion that he would tank Tsukuyomi or simply not ever look him in the eyes? Come on. Gotta love your logic though.

"Yeah, you guys may have reached the finish line first, but that doesn't mean you beat the guy you left behind."

"Yeah, you KO'd that guy in the 6th round, but that doesn't mean you won the fight."

"Yeah, you scored higher than he did on the test, but that doesn't mean you deserve a higher grade."

God I'm ready for the regular arena thread to come back. No more polls. If you're rebuttal falls flat on it's face there's no lurkers there to bolster it and prop it up with votes.

Who gives you the right to say that you have the correct logic or knowledge here, Sir! A little bit arrogant, are we?

I "gotta" love how frustrated you get with this topic.

More of a fact, Minato would win if Kishimoto had drawn this. Its obvious many voted because of what Minato is shown and capable of. But you sir, are also denying facts which others clearly see. Which wikisite list as I said, yet, you come up with "They are wrong"...."Databooks wrong".

Dont you see how ridiculous that is, sir!

The only "lmao" you can really laugh about is your own.

Stop whining. Matter of fact is that Minato is written by Kishimoto as THE NINJA, THE HOKAGE, the whole obstacle Naruto has to surpass. Minato is written and hinted by Kishimoto as the strongest shinobi there is, and Naruto is the only one who can surpass him.

That is a fact. Minatos abilties even surpass the 4th Raikage....that is enough to be said.

[benelori]

Bhasty voting for a character you don't like isn't called being a fanboy, just because M3J voted for Sasuke doesn't make him a fanboy.....He had a good reason to choose Sasuke over Jiraiya that isn't called being a fanboy. I like Jiraiya way more then Sasuke and I myself voted for Sasuke. Sasuke has the talent to beat Jiraiya. You should seriously stop basing so much assumptions on trivial things.

Anywho, what characters were you guys hoping to see in the finals?

I somehow opted between Itachi and Nagato...even though Itachi's genjutsu is still something to be reckoned with, even if Naruto is the opponent...but Nagato...that would've been an awesome fight, and we are having it on screen as well...

Yeah...Nagato vs Naruto...that would've been ideal for me

[hakuthehedgehog]

I also wanted to see Nagato vs Naruto in the finals: Minato vs Naruto so far seems really one sided.

[jaymizzo]

I find it quite funny that the same people who were saying that they know this tournament is based on "Popularity" are all over the thread crying because Minato beat Itachi.

Unfortunately not many people bought into your "Itachi will 1shot Minato with a basic genjutsu" nonsense and went with theyre instincts.

Like Jdw said, man up, swallow them tears and move on. If you cant then good luck changing the past

[benelori]

I find it quite funny that the same people who were saying that they know this tournament is based on "Popularity" are all over the thread crying because Minato beat Itachi.

Unfortunately not many people bought into your "Itachi will 1shot Minato with a basic genjutsu" nonsense and went with theyre instincts.

Like Jdw said, man up, swallow them tears and move on. If you cant then good luck changing the past

Nonsense? Well in most cases yeah...but nobody told me, how Minato is supposed to get out of a genjutsu, when he doesn't know he's under one:headscratch...I accept any reasonable answer:p

[ninjabot]

Nonsense? Well in most cases yeah...but nobody told me, how Minato is supposed to get out of a genjutsu, when he doesn't know he's under one...I accept any reasonable answer


Don't ask, because there are none. The only answer you need is "Minato got more votes than Itachi". Also, you're gonna get accused of crying if you call them on their bullshit anyway, lmao. Just a heads up.

[jdw]

Nonsense? Well in most cases yeah...but nobody told me, how Minato is supposed to get out of a genjutsu, when he doesn't know he's under one:headscratch...I accept any reasonable answer:p

Even if a person does not know they are in a genjutsu, it does not always remain that way, much like the latest chapter reveals, things can be uncovered, even when Itachi is involved. But getting out of genjutsu is only a concern for someOne who is in one.

[xXan]

Even if a person does not know they are in a genjutsu, it does not always remain that way, much like the latest chapter reveals, things can be uncovered, even when Itachi is involved. But getting out of genjutsu is only a concern for someOne who is in one.

Like Deidara that almost blew himself right? Depends what Itachi wants to achive with that genjutsu. Also and again Bee neded the biju to bust him out. Any genjutsu coming from Itachi is going to instantly own Minato.


I find it quite funny that the same people who were saying that they know this tournament is based on "Popularity" are all over the thread crying because Minato beat Itachi.

Unfortunately not many people bought into your "Itachi will 1shot Minato with a basic genjutsu" nonsense and went with theyre instincts.

Like Jdw said, man up, swallow them tears and move on. If you cant then good luck changing the past

Yes i am disapointed but not with what you belive. Its the level of logic on this site that disapoints me and how fans can't see above there love for a given caracter.

If you say that is nonsense how about yo do something that i asked for some 60 pages in Minato vs Itachi? Provide evidence as to WHY Minato is not going to get owned from a basic genjutsu. Now and again EVIDENCE.

[jdw]

Minato and Deidara are not one and the same. Deidara has shown himself to be fairy susceptible to genjutsu.

[Delbi]

Well can't say I'm surprised Minato won, but I am glad to see Itachi got as many votes as he did, because if you ask me he derserves to win for the simple reason that he, nor anyone not named Sasuke or Madara truly has a counter to his genjutsu. Nontheless, if anyone had to beat him, I'm glad it was Minato for the sole reason that Minato is a badass.

Naruto winning is good, because at this point I don't see how Jiraiya could hope to match up against him because Naruto is just that powerful.

But this is all old news, because now ladies and gentlemen, we have what should be the biggest shit storm ever of a fight. FATHER VS. SON! The Yellow Flash vs....The Yellow Night Light! Should be an interesting debate to say the least :D

[xXan]

Minato and Deidara are not one and the same. Deidara has shown himself to be fairy susceptible to genjutsu.

LOL? And Minato has great feats in that area RIGHT? For you to state Minato is better then Deidara proof is needed. He is better then the other guy just because, no evidence is needed, right?

PS. Deidara was NOT shown to be fairy susceptible to genjutsu. He was just showed to get own like anybody else...

[Rikudou Sennin]

LOL? And Minato has great feats in that area RIGHT? For you to state Minato is better then Deidara proof is needed. He is better then the other guy just because, no evidence is needed, right?

Then proof Minato can get oneshooted by Itachi. You talk about evidence, but I think I do not need to tell you what real evidence is, sir.

Matter of fact is that you cant put up evidence Minato cant snap out of that genjutsu. You come up with other "Kage Level Ninja", yet, you assume that because they cant, Minato cant too. Fact is, you cant proof it.

The fact we have is that Minato even surpasses the abilities of the 4th, and people tend to stick what they read and wiki workers and readers also read and write, instead of your "I know how it is and my logic is the correct one" opinion.

[jdw]

Well, even if he does not have great feats, he has no known weakness either, like other characters have displayed.

[benelori]

Even if a person does not know they are in a genjutsu, it does not always remain that way, much like the latest chapter reveals, things can be uncovered, even when Itachi is involved. But getting out of genjutsu is only a concern for someOne who is in one.

The latest chapter reveals a partner, not somebody who figures it out by himself...but I'm talking about scenes similar to how Orochimaru and Deidara got under genjutsu...with Orochimaru there was no eye contact, and Deidara almost blew himself up...

So no eye contact is needed, and the genjutsu is can make one kill himself...that's something that works against anybody who is not a Jinchuuriki or an Uchiha...

However if I may find an argument against myself, I would think of something that Deidara did...training his eye to recognize genjutsu...it's just that I haven't read this argument...so it is a reasonable assumption that Minato had a well trained eye...but still assumption:amuse

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------


Well can't say I'm surprised Minato won, but I am glad to see Itachi got as many votes as he did, because if you ask me he derserves to win for the simple reason that he, nor anyone not named Sasuke or Madara truly has a counter to his genjutsu. Nontheless, if anyone had to beat him, I'm glad it was Minato for the sole reason that Minato is a badass.

Naruto winning is good, because at this point I don't see how Jiraiya could hope to match up against him because Naruto is just that powerful.

But this is all old news, because now ladies and gentlemen, we have what should be the biggest shit storm ever of a fight. FATHER VS. SON! The Yellow Flash vs....The Yellow Night Light! Should be an interesting debate to say the least :D

I don't think there will be much...though I would certainly hope it would...but Naruto is just that strong...there's no genjutsu threat, and no speed disadvantage, so...

[En Yang Ji]

Then proof Minato can get oneshooted by Itachi. You talk about evidence, but I think I do not need to tell you what real evidence is, sir.

Matter of fact is that you cant put up evidence Minato cant snap out of that genjutsu. You come up with other "Kage Level Ninja", yet, you assume that because they cant, Minato cant too. Fact is, you cant proof it.

The fact we have is that Minato even surpasses the abilities of the 4th, and people tend to stick what they read and wiki workers and readers also read and write, instead of your "I know how it is and my logic is the correct one" opinion.

That's like saying "there's no evidence that any of Minato's jutsu would work on Itachi, because we haven't seen them used against him".

[Shinomori Aoshi]

Bhasty voting for a character you don't like isn't called being a fanboy, just because M3J voted for Sasuke doesn't make him a fanboy.....He had a good reason to choose Sasuke over Jiraiya that isn't called being a fanboy. I like Jiraiya way more then Sasuke and I myself voted for Sasuke. Sasuke has the talent to beat Jiraiya. You should seriously stop basing so much assumptions on trivial things.

Anywho, what characters were you guys hoping to see in the finals?

I was hoping to see Naruto vs Itachi and a win for Itachi, but I was expecting Naruto vs Madara and a win for Madara, based solely on skill/power levels.

[Delbi]

Then proof Minato can get oneshooted by Itachi. You talk about evidence, but I think I do not need to tell you what real evidence is, sir.

Matter of fact is that you cant put up evidence Minato cant snap out of that genjutsu. You come up with other "Kage Level Ninja", yet, you assume that because they cant, Minato cant too. Fact is, you cant proof it.

The fact we have is that Minato even surpasses the abilities of the 4th, and people tend to stick what they read and wiki workers and readers also read and write, instead of your "I know how it is and my logic is the correct one" opinion.

Fact is though, we have seen Itachi dismantle and own Kage level ninja before with his genjutsu. That is a fact.

So, one could argue, that since we have seen Itachi do this to others, that he can indeed do it to Minato.

Saying that, though, anyone else could say "well Minato has never been put under a genjutsu, and therefore Itachi can't do it to him because he has shown neither strength nor weakness to genjutsu". Fine, but also keep this in mind.

At this point in the manga, Minato is no longer a mystery. We know what he is good at now, we have seen him fight two very powerful ninja in Raikage and Tobi. In both of those fights, we saw him display speed and ninjutsu. Not once however, did he ever display genjutsu skill, or genjutsu defense because he never had to.

BUT, we have never heard of Minato being great at using or defending against genjutsu. His sensei, Jiriaya, was not good at using genjutsu, and never showed great genjutsu defense either.

His son, has shown himself to be terrible at both using and defending against genjutsu.

AND, as others have pointed out, other Kage level ninja have fallen to Itachi's genjutsu.

So let us recap the evidence for Itachi, and the evidence for Minato

Evidence for Itachi being capable of putting Minato in a genjutsu:

1) Itachi is a masterful genjutsu user, the best the manga has seen
2) Itachi has put several Kage Level ninja in Genjutsu without much effort. They range from ninja who were Kage Candidates, Sharigan users, Genjutsu experts, to his own son.
3) Minato's own teacher, was never good at genjutsu, and himself never showed he was capable of defending against high level genjutsu, he merely showed us he knew how to defeat genjutsu, something his own student, Naruto also knew how to do, yet didn't have the ability to do so.
4) Minato's own flesh and blood Naruto, who shares many traits with his father, is very bad at using and defending agianst genjutsu. Genetics should count for something.
5) Minato himself has shown no strength against genjutsu.

Evidence for Minato not being put into Itachi's genjutsu, or being able to break it:
1) Minato has never been put into a genjutsu before
2) Minato has shown no weakness for genjutsu
3) Minato is Minato, a Kage and genius
4) Minato is "too fast" to be put into a genjutsu

Looking at this evidence, I think most people would assume that Minato is much more likely to fall to Itachi's genjutsu, than he is to avoid it or break it. There is overwhelming evidence that Itachi is capable of putting Minato in a genjutsu, as he has done it to everyone he has faced without failing it once. Only 1 ninja, his own brother Sasuke, who he was taking it easy on and who is perhaps more prepared to deal with Itachi's genjutsu than any ninja in the manga has ever broken a genjutsu made by Itachi.

So, can Minato avoid Itachi's genjutsu? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Can Minato break Itachi's genjutsu? Yes. Is it likely? No.

So, people can cry all they want about Minato never being put into a genjutsu, and being great and all, but the fact remains, that the odds are stacked heavily against him succumbing to Itachi's genjutsu, a fact no one can really debate seeing as how Minato lacks known feats and abilities to deal with genjutsu of Itachi's caliber.

[3c]

When I meet a case such as Minato vs Genjutsu where nothing is really known about Minato's skill with genjutsu (and breaking out), I personally tend to go with an assumption of said character being average in that department. However in Minato's case it's pretty obvious that he is a highly intelligent and skilled ninja in all fields that we've seen him perform within. Minato is a master of ninjutsu, being an inventor of highly complicated techniques and being an obvious master of taijutsu. Even if genjutsu is a complete unknown, I would assume that in his case he's above average with it. I can't say he's an expert (like having a 5 in databook stats) but I would assume he has major knowledge and fair skill with it (maybe a 4).

Regardless genjutsu would be his death against an opponent such as Itachi IMO. All Itachi needs is to trap Minato a few seconds in a genjutsu and he should have more than enough time to hurt/kill him. To break out of a genjutsu you would first need to know that you are within a genjutsu to begin with, that is either done by 1) a tailed beast telling you and poking you out, 2) having a tool to decode genjutsu (Sharingan) or 3) be in it long enough or experience something within it (like Itachi turning into a crow after killing him) which is an obvious sign of genjutsu. Unless you are a Jinchuuriki or Uchiha you're pretty much screwed unless you figure out you're within a genjutu quick enough. Personally I don't see Minato doing all this before Itachi manages to hurt/kill him. However, if Minato gets caught in a genjutsu to begin with is another case entirely. Personally I think Itachi would win, but Minato is a very tough opponent. Too bad I didn't have time to participate in the thread. I did however at least vote.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I haven't had a chance to participate in this tourney in a while. So the final match up is Naruto vs Minato. That is not much of a surprise, Naruto was obviously the strongest in his side (i think that side of the bracket was somewhat weak, most of the strong strong people were on Minato's side of the bracket). Minato was one the four strongest in his side of the bracket. I think his biggest challenge was Nagato, and once he got past him, it was straight to the final. I'm surprise that the voting in that fight wasn't closer.

[rell250]

Jiraiya is no doubt strong, but he can't defeat Sasuke pre EMS let alone Itachi or Madara. My favorite character is Kakashi so yea forget all this accusing us rational thinkers of suddenly being Uchiha lovers. If you can honestly name a counter for Minato against Itachi's genjutsu let alone Susanoo's sword and shield with proof from the manga heck i would of voted for minato. But guess what there's nothing in the manga that states he could do anything to save himself from that. Let me ask you this as well. How could Jiraiya dodge Amaterasu let alone the Susanoo arrow? When has Jiraiya been showed speeds of that level? I'm not saying Uchiha can't be defeated but these matchups were over run by the popularity. Sasuke can defeat Jiraiya IMO. But would i say he can defeat Minato at his current level. NO. But you would simply vote against Uchiha simply because you belive certain characters are unstoppable and are immune to the things that make the Uchiha what they are. So the people that use the manga as proof to decide how they vote are fanboys?

[En Yang Ji]

Whatever the results of the tournament it's all good, we can just create threads in the Konohagakure thread if we're disappointed over the end results.

:kkthumbs

[M3J]

Anywho, what characters were you guys hoping to see in the finals?
Naruto vs. Nagato
Naruto vs. Itachi
Itachi vs. Hashirama

I knew Naruto and MInato would win, which would be boring. I see more posts saying Naruto would win with a speedblitz or whatever. Boring to debate Naruto vs. Minato, to be honest.



Unfortunately not many people bought into your "Itachi will 1shot Minato with a basic genjutsu" nonsense and went with theyre instincts.

No they didn't. They went with who they liked more. THere are at least four posts saying "Minato/Itachi ftw!" providing one or two reasons why one would win. I find it funny how Minato/JIraiya supporters totally ignore those posts, but that's not new.

Itachi can beat MInato with a genjutsu and kunai. He was able to put Orochimaru, a genius with 5 in genjutsu (since you like using databooks), in a genjutsu that was hard for Orochimaru to break out. Itachi even cut his hand off before he could finish doing the seal, so why can't the same happen to MInato? Especially when we saw Sasuke put Bee in a genjutsu despite them moving?

The main reasons why I'm not as annoyed is because I do think Minato can win, and there were at least some good arguments.



But this is all old news, because now ladies and gentlemen, we have what should be the biggest shit storm ever of a fight. FATHER VS. SON! The Yellow Flash vs....The Yellow Night Light! Should be an interesting debate to say the least :D
This is based on about twelve hours ago, but when I saw the debate, it was basically boring and mostly in Naruto's favor. Rikudou Mode made him immortal and stuff, though I voted for Naruto.


Well, even if he does not have great feats, he has no known weakness either, like other characters have displayed.
Itachi has no known weakness either, at least not fully healthy. Even when he was sick and nearly blind, he was keeping up with Sasuke almost effortlessly.

He was able to fight Kakashi and Kurenai with less than half his power and did what no one else could do, take out Kakashi on his own (although that is debatable).

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Come on guys seriously.

You had to know that this tournament was going to boil down to popularity and who likes who better and yet you STILL insist on complaining and whining.

Please get over it.

I am really getting sick and tired of hearing about the Sasuke vs Jiraya thread.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Jiraiya is no doubt strong, but he can't defeat Sasuke pre EMS let alone Itachi or Madara. My favorite character is Kakashi so yea forget all this accusing us rational thinkers of suddenly being Uchiha lovers. If you can honestly name a counter for Minato against Itachi's genjutsu let alone Susanoo's sword and shield with proof from the manga heck i would of voted for minato. But guess what there's nothing in the manga that states he could do anything to save himself from that. Let me ask you this as well. How could Jiraiya dodge Amaterasu let alone the Susanoo arrow? When has Jiraiya been showed speeds of that level? I'm not saying Uchiha can't be defeated but these matchups were over run by the popularity. Sasuke can defeat Jiraiya IMO. But would i say he can defeat Minato at his current level. NO. But you would simply vote against Uchiha simply because you belive certain characters are unstoppable and are immune to the things that make the Uchiha what they are. So the people that use the manga as proof to decide how they vote are fanboys?

You rational thinkers? I'm very sure the meaning of that term haven't change since the last time i check. And you guys don't fall under that definition. You guys who raise all hell when the the Uchiha guy you voted for lost in a fanbase opinionated tourney, don't fall under that definition. You guys who act like that Uchiha guy just lost to Tenten rather than another very capable ninja who is in no doubt on the Uchiha guy lvl, don't fall under that definition. You guys who act like Kishi, and act like you already know with 100% certainty who will win in this fight, don't fall under that definition. You guys who act like multiple rational thinkers cannot look at something/problem and arrive at different conclusion are not rational thinkers. Calling yourself rational thinkers don't make you one. Thinking only people who came to the same conclusion as you, in a highly opinionated subject, are rational thinkers likely means you are not a rational thinker.

Characters that i like and voted for lost in this tournament, you don't see me raising hell. Characters who ain't Uchihas, who people like lost in this tourney you don't see them having a whining party. There are ways to voice you disagreement with something without whining and come across as a delusional fanboy, just take a look at 3c last post.

[jorped]

I am seeing that a lot of people are not happy with the results and i think that's understandable, at least until some point.
Except Naruto himself, i consider that my votes are not at all based in what i like or don't like, but it's understandable that unconsciously we end sometimes voting for something that could not deserve win. Though i think that taking that to extreme is also a bit bad for the Tournament itself.
I have been following this Tournament since the beginning and the only fight that think that ended with a result, that wasn't indeed IMO a very understandable one was Jiraya win against Sasuke. I mean if Sasuke didn't had MS i wouldn't be sure, but on this case he did had it. And based of what we saw of Jiraya i don't think he would be strong enough to beat Sasuke, that has awesome weapons at his side, like Susano or Amateratsu.
But the same i can't really say this too the people that question Minato win. Why all this whine, seriously ? Both Minato and Itachi are incredibly strong shinobis and there isn't anything on the manga that you can use to say that Itachi/Minato would definitely win. I mean that fight was predestined to be based on opinions, not on facts ! We never got to know how skilled Minato was against Genjutsus ! Itachi's speed was always praised but we don't know if he for example would be able to avoid an hit of Raikage using full speed, like Minato did. Both of them are incredibly strong and whatever would be the outcome of this fight it wouldn't be that predictable at all IMO.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

So why aren't you getting mad at people saying Naruto can oneshot Jiraiya and/or MInato? -.-


Like i said in my first post here today, i haven't had a chance to participate in this tourney in awhile. I didn't read the Naruto vs Jiraiya or Minato vs Itachi thread. And i haven't even take a look at Naruto vs Minato thread yet.

I have never seen you get mad over people saying Itachi (or Sasuke) would oneshoot a character, all you have to do is look at a thread involving Itachi and you will see multiple posts alluding to that. But you always get mad when someone say Minato would do the same thing. And i don't see you whining about Itachi beating Madara even though you said yourself you don't see him beating Madara, then again he is your favorite character. I don't see any whining party over Itachi beating Madara, and i sure as hell don't see how he can beat Madara (unless he would have done so why he was alive)

But regarding that, i have always believe the same thing, i don't believe in one ninja oneshooting another, unless the power gap between is quite huge. I

[hakuthehedgehog]

Again, every fight in the tournament boils down to personal interpretation of the participants skills and jutsu: some people say that Itachi would ownstomp Minato with one genjutsu (because he did against Deidara- who doesn't have info on the sharingan, which Minato does) and Orochimaru, who actually managed to get away from Itachi, so he wasn't owned.

People have diferent opinions regarding the outcome of every fight: do people think that Jiraya will win against Sasuke? Yes. Do I? Hell no! Do I rage about it? Of course not, that's pointless.

Do I understand what it is to be bored and go on the forums to discuss? Yes, but there's a point in the fights where you are constantly repeating yourself over and over, and at that moment, you should give up since you both have voted already and your points are clear.

[huynhlan]

Hey I got an idea, it's probably stupid and an impossible one, but hey I just want to throw it out there. My idea is why don't one of us who have a friend in japan, ask that friend of his to attend one of kishi's interview and if he could then try to ask kishi who is stronger in a fight minato or itachi or who would win between those two. I know it's an stupid idea, but hey it can solve every thing.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Hey I got an idea, it's probably stupid and an impossible one, but hey I just want to throw it out there. My idea is why don't one of us who have a friend in japan, ask that friend of his to attend one of kishi's interview and if he could then try to ask kishi who is stronger in a fight minato or itachi or who would win between those two. I know it's an stupid idea, but hey it's not impossible.

Lool. I doubt any author would ever answer that. You would have to be stupid as an author/mangaka to answer that. Part of been a good author/mangaka is to keep the fanbase/fanboys debating, even when the manga is over. That would keep people talking about the manga even when it's over. That is why i think there wouldn't be a certain winner when Naruto and Sasuke fight next.

[jdw]

I saw someone once mention an interview in which Kishi states that Minato is the strongest among all dead shinobi. I am not sure if it is real/fake or whatever.

[Delbi]

Well, I wish that there was something I could say to offer comfort to those who are very hurt by their losses. Perhaps your time can be spent coming up with a tournament structure you think will allow your favorite Uchiha to win in the future. My suggestion would be:

1. Leave out Naruto
2. Leave out Minato
3. Leave out Nagato
4. Disallow creative uses of character jutsu
5. Appoint yourselves as judges

1. If Naruto had faced Itachi or Madara he would have been stomped into the ground. At his current level those are the only two ninja I believe have any chance in defeating him thanks to Itachi's Genjutsu and Madara's S/T powers and genjutsu.

2. As far as Minato goes at this point Itachi, Naruto, Madara, Kisame, and Orochimaru have the skills to defeat him thanks to their own speed, durability, or in Itachi's case genjutsu.

3. Nagato is a very overhyped character IMO. Naruto, Minato, Itachi, Sasuke, Jiraiya, Madara, and even Orochimaru all have a very good chance at defeating him. When all of his powers are placed in one body he isn't nearly as deadly or invulerable as he is when he is using the Pain jutsu.

4. Creative ways for characters to use jutsu is fine, and while I hate to bring it up, no one came up with any creative ways for Jiriaya to defeat Sasuke, yet he did. The whole genjutsu argument for Minato and to a lesser extent Jiraiya is absurd given their lack of feats against genjutsu and Sasuke, and especially Itachi's skill and feats with genjutsu.

So say what you will, but saying Jiraiya can be creative with his jutus use, but Itachi and Sauske can't use their genjutsu how they normally do against Jiraiya or Minato for no other reason other than "they are Jiraiya and Minato, and neither have fallen to a genjutsu is bullshit". Because let's be frank, many of the "creative" jutsu uses that people have explained, have never happened by the people they explain using them, so that's quite a double standard no?

5. Well that just a remark that doesn't need to be said. But, from what I gather, more people seem to openly support some people that have lost fights (Itachi, Orochimaru, Sasuke, etc.) than people that have won them (Jiraiya, Hashirama, Minato). So that does sort of go to prove that the tourney is a popularity contest, which is fine, but when people don't support their votes, it's kind of hard to take them seriously. And in many instances, when people do support their votes (Jiraiya vs. Sasuke), they don't make much sense.

IMO, I'm fine with Minato defeating Itachi, because despite the fact that I think Itachi should have won, it's very reasonable to assume Minato would have won. But for things like Jiraiya defeating Sasuke, or Hashirama defeating Orochimaru, I tend to feel as if people just vote for who they like more.

[3c]

I've pretty much had enough of all this fanboy and name calling. If you guys can't discuss the tournament in a friendly manner then this thread might as well be closed. Get a grip on. There are 9 days left of the tournament (4 of the final match and 5 more days where the board is open for discussion of the tournament as a whole and how it went, what you liked (seems like close to nothing was liked) etc. Keep this thread FRIENDLY for those 9 days. No more fanboy calling, no more name calling, no more baiting and bashing. Let's behave like adults.

[xXan]

I saw someone once mention an interview in which Kishi states that Minato is the strongest among all dead shinobi. I am not sure if it is real/fake or whatever.

Was it before or after Itachi died? Also how could that be true considering the Sage of 6 paths?

Edit: perhaps it was among all dead Hokages?

[3c]

Was it before or after Itachi died? Also how could that be true considering the Sage of 6 paths?

Edit: perhaps it was among all dead Hokages?

Not sure if the interview was real or not, but I think it was quite some time ago. It might have been after Itachi's death. Regardless of who is "stronger" I wouldn't use it. The stronger fighter can still lose to the weaker one simply because this is Naruto not Dragonball. Even if Minato might be per definition "stronger" than Itachi, Itachi could beat him because of his abilities (as an example).

[Silvers Rayleigh]

Was confirmed fake along time ago, Some minato fan made it up.The interview was posted on One manga
You should be able to find it there.

[M3J]

Not sure if the interview was real or not, but I think it was quite some time ago. It might have been after Itachi's death. Regardless of who is "stronger" I wouldn't use it. The stronger fighter can still lose to the weaker one simply because this is Naruto not Dragonball. Even if Minato might be per definition "stronger" than Itachi, Itachi could beat him because of his abilities (as an example).

Exactly. It doesn't matter who's stronger, matchups are everything. Like I said, Sasuke can wipe the floor with Jiraiya and lose to Kakashi, while Kakashi can lose to Jiraiya. Tobi can beat Itachi while losing to Minato, who could lose to Itachi. Winners aren't as clear cut as people make 'em out to be.

[rell250]

Like i said in my first post here today, i haven't had a chance to participate in this tourney in awhile. I didn't read the Naruto vs Jiraiya or Minato vs Itachi thread. And i haven't even take a look at Naruto vs Minato thread yet.

I have never seen you get mad over people saying Itachi (or Sasuke) would oneshoot a character, all you have to do is look at a thread involving Itachi and you will see multiple posts alluding to that. But you always get mad when someone say Minato would do the same thing. And i don't see you whining about Itachi beating Madara even though you said yourself you don't see him beating Madara, then again he is your favorite character. I don't see any whining party over Itachi beating Madara, and i sure as hell don't see how he can beat Madara (unless he would have done so why he was alive)

But regarding that, i have always believe the same thing, i don't believe in one ninja oneshooting another, unless the power gap between is quite huge. I

First of all, if you haven't even participated in the tournament you don't even know what or how the argument for Itachi went. In the Minato vs Itachi thread we discussed under the rules of the tournament which way to judge who'd win as far as what we've seen and has been confirmed in the manga/databook. Itachi can counter anything Minato can do from what the manga has provided. Minato has nothing shown or even hinted at in the manga that can counter Itachi's genjutsu nor any persons genjutsu if caught in it. Let's not forget Susanoo either. People sitting there and telling me to assume Minato can do things we haven't even seen him do and accept that as a fair win? I'm not mad at all either i just would like to make a point. I mean it is a discussion about the tournament>_<

[Raizen]

It's Minato Double Standard. Anytime anyone downplays Minato, even with perfectly good reason, people get mad. However, they won't mind downplaying anyone else. Example: Sasuke and 1000 shinobi vs. Minato and 50 shinobi. People say Minato's feat was more impressive because he was up against 50 chuunins although he had Hiraishin to bail him out of trouble. Sasuke's feat was nothing even against 1000 shinobi as training practice despite not tryin to kill them and despite Orochimaru saying he was nothing compared to Sasuke. Why? Because of a horrible excuse called "those shinobi weren't really shinobi" EVEN THOUGH they dressed like shinobi and it'd make no sense for Sasuke to train if he got no challenge. If Minato got attacked from behind, he could use Hiraishin. An exploding tag? Hiraishin. Sasuke had no leisure, if he got attacked from behind, Sasuke would have needed to defend himself well or he'd get injured.

So many rules for MInato, like no downplaying him, but overplaying him works, yet those rules apply to no one else. The manga even gets ignored. People can say MInato can break out of any genjutsu he wants, but no one is allowed to say Sasuke is a genius despite so many characters, even Sasuke's enemies, saying that he is. They can say Sasuke isn't a genius though.

These statements have actually been said and somehow mostly involves Sasuke (which shows the level of hatred for Sasuke and love for Minato, which may show that Minato is liked because he could probably beat Sasuke). Minato Double Standard no Jutsu is as real as Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.
1. Where does it say those rock ninjas were chuunin?
2. Those ninjas had no headbands so hence they were not real ninjas... simple
3. Why exactly are u complaining about an attack. Minato has hiraishin the same way itachi and sasuke has susanoo. When things don't go your way, u whine and complain.
______________________
I don't understand why people are complaining about who is in the finals. U act as if naruto and Minato has not shown the strength that would permit them to be in the finals...like it is only because of their fans that they win. It's sad :fail

[Naruffy]

Question, If Minato where to place a seal on Itachi's susanoo, would he be able to teleport inside since the seal allows him to teleport around the general area it's placed?

[M3J]

1. Where does it say those rock ninjas were chuunin?
2. Those ninjas had no headbands so hence they were not real ninjas... simple
3. Why exactly are u complaining about an attack. Minato has hiraishin the same way itachi and sasuke has susanoo. When things don't go your way, u whine and complain.
______________________
I don't understand why people are complaining about who is in the finals. U act as if naruto and Minato has not shown the strength that would permit them to be in the finals...like it is only because of their fans that they win. It's sad :fail

1. Weren't you and the others saying Minato fought the chuunin rock ninjas? So are you admitting they can be genins as well?
2. That's a horrible reason, really. Sasuke and Tobi have no headbands, neither does Orochimaru... does that mean they're not real ninjas? Raikage wasn't wearing a headband, does that mean he's not a real ninja either? Stop trying to downplay Sasuke, he did a lot better than Minato considering he fought more shinobi without the element of surprise, ability to teleport, and trying to kill. Orochimaru even said he was nothing like Sasuke at that age.
3. Hiraishin is more haxxed than Susano'o. Minato can be slow as hell, but with his fast reflexes, he can escape any attack he wants. Susano'o can be broken and still puts the users at risk, as well as eating up a lot of chakra compared to Hiraishin. I'm not whining or complaining, I'm pointing out the truth that people seem to deny or ignore.

From what it looks like, you're not really reading any post at all, just a few and then assuming something. If you did read posts, then you'd actually know what I say has merit, that Jiraiya got far because of fans, not on his own talent. Of course, those that supported Jiraiya keep ignoring the horrible posts some Jiraiya supporters made just so they can continue thinking Jiriaya won because people thought he could win.

Um, because it's true? I don't see how it's sad at all when there's actual proof. How can Naruto beat Kisame, whose Samehada can suck up chakra, who has a jutsu that can absorb chakra and get bigger, and who can tank powerful attacks and still keep going? How can Jiraiya beat Sasuke when he can't move fast enough to counter Susano'o's arrows or Amaterasu? Amaterasu, when focused on, could burn his hair and eventually get to his head. How can Hashirama beat Killerbee when Killerbee's too fast to catch with Mokuton and doesn't only rely on his bijuu? How can Hashirama beat Orochimaru when he doesn't have any powerful moves we've seen so far?

Doesn't really look like you read most of the posts, if any. If Jiraiya had decent arguments backing up why he'd win, I wouldn't mind he beat Sasuke (although I dunno about others). Minato may have some decent arguments, but I don't mind much because Minato actually has a chance of beating Itachi as Itachi has a chance of beating Minato.

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------


Question, If Minato where to place a seal on Itachi's susanoo, would he be able to teleport inside since the seal allows him to teleport around the general area it's placed?

If Susano'o disappears, I don't think he'd be able to teleport inside. However, if he tags Itachi, then I do think Minato can teleport inside Susano'o where Itachi is, and assuming from Itachi and Sasuke, Minato wouldn't get hurt inside, unless one's own chakra doesn't hurt them. Though, if Susano'o does come out again, it could still possibly be tagged, but I'm not sure on this.

[Raizen]

Here is the link to the interview
http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com2009/07/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about.html

It is after the death of J-man and Itachi. OS it is clear that Minato and saidame in his prime are the strongest among the fallen. That is what I have stated all along.
Comparison of strength allows us to tell who will win the majority of a fight against a certain opponent!

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------


1. Weren't you and the others saying Minato fought the chuunin rock ninjas? So are you admitting they can be genins as well?
2. That's a horrible reason, really. Sasuke and Tobi have no headbands, neither does Orochimaru... does that mean they're not real ninjas? Raikage wasn't wearing a headband, does that mean he's not a real ninja either? Stop trying to downplay Sasuke, he did a lot better than Minato considering he fought more shinobi without the element of surprise, ability to teleport, and trying to kill. Orochimaru even said he was nothing like Sasuke at that age.
3. Hiraishin is more haxxed than Susano'o. Minato can be slow as hell, but with his fast reflexes, he can escape any attack he wants. Susano'o can be broken and still puts the users at risk, as well as eating up a lot of chakra compared to Hiraishin. I'm not whining or complaining, I'm pointing out the truth that people seem to deny or ignore.

From what it looks like, you're not really reading any post at all, just a few and then assuming something. If you did read posts, then you'd actually know what I say has merit, that Jiraiya got far because of fans, not on his own talent. Of course, those that supported Jiraiya keep ignoring the horrible posts some Jiraiya supporters made just so they can continue thinking Jiriaya won because people thought he could win.

Um, because it's true? I don't see how it's sad at all when there's actual proof. How can Naruto beat Kisame, whose Samehada can suck up chakra, who has a jutsu that can absorb chakra and get bigger, and who can tank powerful attacks and still keep going? How can Jiraiya beat Sasuke when he can't move fast enough to counter Susano'o's arrows or Amaterasu? Amaterasu, when focused on, could burn his hair and eventually get to his head. How can Hashirama beat Killerbee when Killerbee's too fast to catch with Mokuton and doesn't only rely on his bijuu? How can Hashirama beat Orochimaru when he doesn't have any powerful moves we've seen so far?

Doesn't really look like you read most of the posts, if any. If Jiraiya had decent arguments backing up why he'd win, I wouldn't mind he beat Sasuke (although I dunno about others). Minato may have some decent arguments, but I don't mind much because Minato actually has a chance of beating Itachi as Itachi has a chance of beating Minato.
1. Are u kidding?! That was a war. No way a group of leaf ninjas would be afraid of a team of genin or chuunin. Those were most likely jonins
2. Doesn't raikage wear his headband around his waist? Sasuke is a traitor. Tobi does not wear a headband for the simple reason to hide his identity. Are u seriously bringing up such horrible cases to help ur argument? Because its not working. Fact is, even missing nins wear headbands. if u don't have a headband, that means u aren't even good enough to pass the academy. oro's statement means nothing in the case of comparison with Minato
3. A technique is a technique. Susanoo basically gives the user a powerful defense and offense. And it is not something that the user has to develop, it just happens to be a technique from their eye from birth :notrust

Here u go again, just because a match didn't go the way u wanted it to, u automatically claim that the other fighter can't beat another. J-man was strong enough to fight against pein and considered a threat even against itachi. W/o EMS, sasuke would lose against J-man.
Naruto can beat kisame b/c he can blitz kisame. There are no facts to back up ur claim that susanoo or amaretsu is too ffast for J-man. In the cases where the susanoo arrow was shot, the opponent was just standing still and was not expecting it.
Truth is, those are the results. The author wrote this manga and portrayed his characters as such. Obviously he did a great job if he got the majority of fans to believe in the strength of Minato for him to be in the finals, or that harashima could beat oro, or J-man could beat sasuke before EMS, etc. That is what it is. Stop whining and just enjoy.

[Rikudou King]

Why exactly wouldn't Orochimaru's ninjas be considered ninjas? With only a hundred of them in addition to the Suna ninjas, he was able to do devastating damage to Konoha, one of the strongest villages.


Question, If Minato where to place a seal on Itachi's susanoo, would he be able to teleport inside since the seal allows him to teleport around the general area it's placed? We saw with Sasuke's Susanoo that even though it looks empty, Susanoo's protection still extends to it's inside. So Minato couldn't teleport inside it.

[rell250]

Here is the link to the interview
http://naruto-spoilers.blogspot.com2009/07/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about.html

It is after the death of J-man and Itachi. OS it is clear that Minato and saidame in his prime are the strongest among the fallen. That is what I have stated all along.
Comparison of strength allows us to tell who will win the majority of a fight against a certain opponent!

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------


1. Are u kidding?! That was a war. No way a group of leaf ninjas would be afraid of a team of genin or chuunin. Those were most likely jonins
2. Doesn't raikage wear his headband around his waist? Sasuke is a traitor. Tobi does not wear a headband for the simple reason to hide his identity. Are u seriously bringing up such horrible cases to help ur argument? Because its not working. Fact is, even missing nins wear headbands. if u don't have a headband, that means u aren't even good enough to pass the academy. oro's statement means nothing in the case of comparison with Minato
3. A technique is a technique. Susanoo basically gives the user a powerful defense and offense. And it is not something that the user has to develop, it just happens to be a technique from their eye from birth :notrust

Here u go again, just because a match didn't go the way u wanted it to, u automatically claim that the other fighter can't beat another. J-man was strong enough to fight against pein and considered a threat even against itachi. W/o EMS, sasuke would lose against J-man.
Naruto can beat kisame b/c he can blitz kisame. There are no facts to back up ur claim that susanoo or amaretsu is too ffast for J-man. In the cases where the susanoo arrow was shot, the opponent was just standing still and was not expecting it.
Truth is, those are the results. The author wrote this manga and portrayed his characters as such. Obviously he did a great job if he got the majority of fans to believe in the strength of Minato for him to be in the finals, or that harashima could beat oro, or J-man could beat sasuke before EMS, etc. That is what it is. Stop whining and just enjoy.

If you can't describe to me how Jiraiya can beat Sasuke he CANT REALLY BEAT HIm and you know it. Nobody's whining we're right and you're not even listening to anything were trying to say. What exactly are you trying to say? We've seen Jiraiya fight right? We've seen AMaterasu in use right? We've seen Susanoo's arrown in use right? So how can Jiraiya from what we've seen counter those attacks? TELL ME PLS? He can't and Jiraiya has NEVER been showed to be physically fast enough nor has any jutsu of his been mentioned to counter those.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v52/c484/6.html Kakashi doesn't use Kamui unless he absolutely needs to and he had to right off the bat. So how are we wrong here? You keep believing in the hype of certain characters instead of going by what we've seen is the complete wrong way to judge these matchups. Just ask Shikamaru's dad. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v56/c529/12.html Hey i provided manga proof GO FIGUREEE

[Nath Uchiha]

ere u go again, just because a match didn't go the way u wanted it to, u automatically claim that the other fighter can't beat another. J-man was strong enough to fight against pein and considered a threat even against itachi. W/o EMS, sasuke would lose against J-man.

Why would Sasuke without EMS lose? We don't even know what the hell it does! I, like more, probally just used the abilities shown thus far and added ''eye sight doesn't deteriorate''.


Naruto can beat kisame b/c he can blitz kisame.

Except you know, taking a beating from the Taijutsu master of Konoha who was using 7 gates, and not being, I don't know, dead? Naruto has shown nothing in terms of Taijutsu that Gai couldn't do.


here are no facts to back up ur claim that susanoo or amaretsu is too ffast for J-man. In the cases where the susanoo arrow was shot, the opponent was just standing still and was not expecting it.

This is the most retarted part yet. You basically agree that Jiraiya would lose unknowingly. Why would Jiraiya expect the arrow? HE WOULDN'T! Hell, Kakashi had to resort to Kamui or he would have ben hit, and Danzo had to use his unstable Mokuton powers to deflect it as he wasn't able to dodge it.

[jdw]

The fact remains, actions can be taken against the arrow. Jiraiya has a jutsu that allows him to become flat. Theoretically, he can just become flat, allowing the arrow to pass over him.

Naruto has shown that he can become an army of 1000. With this, he can basically be an army of taijutsu, striking with 2000 hands, 2000 feet, and wield thousands of kunai for combat. Gai has not shown any such ability.

[ninjabot]

The fact remains, actions can be taken against the arrow. Jiraiya has a jutsu that allows him to become flat. Theoretically, he can just become flat, allowing the arrow to pass over him.


Sasuke's been shown to be able to fire multiple arrows consecutively. And if he sees Jiraiya flatten (this is all assuming he both sees the arrow coming and performs handseals faster than Kakashi can cast a Kamui...), then what's stopping Sasuke from just blasting the flattened Jiraiya while he's prone, or trying to unflatten himself?

I think that's the biggest annoyance is that there's an answer for everything Sasuke does per se... they're just either trash, or easily countered right back, bringing Jiraiya back to zero. And the only ones that wanted to accept the ease at which that could happen is those not willing to appease a member of the arian trinity.

[rell250]

The fact remains, actions can be taken against the arrow. Jiraiya has a jutsu that allows him to become flat. Theoretically, he can just become flat, allowing the arrow to pass over him.

Naruto has shown that he can become an army of 1000. With this, he can basically be an army of taijutsu, striking with 2000 hands, 2000 feet, and wield thousands of kunai for combat. Gai has not shown any such ability.

He becomes flat and then boom Amaterasu.

[M3J]

1. Are u kidding?! That was a war. No way a group of leaf ninjas would be afraid of a team of genin or chuunin. Those were most likely jonins
2. Doesn't raikage wear his headband around his waist? Sasuke is a traitor. Tobi does not wear a headband for the simple reason to hide his identity. Are u seriously bringing up such horrible cases to help ur argument? Because its not working. Fact is, even missing nins wear headbands. if u don't have a headband, that means u aren't even good enough to pass the academy. oro's statement means nothing in the case of comparison with Minato
3. A technique is a technique. Susanoo basically gives the user a powerful defense and offense. And it is not something that the user has to develop, it just happens to be a technique from their eye from birth :notrust
1. And can you provide manga evidence they were jounins and not chuunins or even genins? We've seen genins and chuunins sent on those kinds of missions as well, aka Obito and Rin. They've sent kids as young as 12 on missions like destroying the bridge on enemy land. Minato may have killed fifty talented genins for all we know.
2. No, that's just a belt. Sasuke still has no headband on, and neither does Raikage nor Tobi, whatever the reason is. I don't know how they're horrible cases when yours is just ridiculous, stating that ninjas need to wear headbands when we see at least three examples of ninjas not wearing headband, and one of them is a freakin' kage. Hell, have we even seen any kage wear headband? Your logic is horrible... just because ninjas don't wear headbands doesn't mean they're not ninjas, it means they chose not to wear headbands. So Sasuke and Orochimaru weren't good enough to pass the academy? Seriously, stop trying to downplay Sasuke with made up facts, it's just sad. And how does it not mean anything? the fact is: Minato had the element of surprise, ability to teleport to avoid any attacks, and was aiming to kill. Sasuke didn't have any of those benefit and was up against more shinobi, he was clearly superior.
3. Hiraishin is basically the most powerful offense and defense. If a nuke is used, then whoever has the Susano'o will be killed. If Minato uses Hiraishin and teleports to a tag out of range of nuke, he's safe. Yet Susano'o was very rare, and even with MS only a select few could use Susano'o. Oh yeah, definitely not something a user has to develop. He certainly does not need to kill his best friend, who could be very powerful as well. He certainly does not have to experience the trauma of killing someone he loved. He certainly does not have to steal his brother's eyes and apparently, hope it works. He certainly does not have to face the low chances of getting Susano'o. Yep, definitely can't be developed. Susano'o appears to anyone with Sharingan for sure.


Here u go again, just because a match didn't go the way u wanted it to, u automatically claim that the other fighter can't beat another. J-man was strong enough to fight against pein and considered a threat even against itachi. W/o EMS, sasuke would lose against J-man.
That's not why I automatically claim it. Even during the fight I said Jiraiya can't beat Sasuke, and even before the fight I thought Sasuke would beat Jiraiya. It has nothing to do with a match going the way I wanted, it has something to do with the actual fight. Just because Jiraiya is strong enough to fight Pain and be a threat to Itachi, it doesn't mean he'd beat Sasuke. It's all about the matchups, not about power level.


Naruto can beat kisame b/c he can blitz kisame. There are no facts to back up ur claim that susanoo or amaretsu is too ffast for J-man. In the cases where the susanoo arrow was shot, the opponent was just standing still and was not expecting it.
He blitzed Kisame once. Kisame was still able to run away and even fight. Gai used Gate 6 or 7 Afternoon Tiger on Kisame, Kisame was still able to move. Gai punched Kisame when he tried to move. Kisame was locked up but still able to break (http://www.mangareader.net/93-56935-15/naruto/chapter-507.html) out and summon a shark after using Water Prison. Kisame can get Naruto close after the blitz and then swipe his chakra.

There are no facts to back up your claim that Susano'o or Amaterasu isn't too fast for Jiraiya. We saw Susano'o arrow be too fast for Kakashi and Danzou. Kakashi didn't have time to run away, and he's pretty fast, and Danzou had to use up chakra to use Mokuton to divert the arrows' path. Jiraiya certainly won't have time. Plus, Raikage was expecting Amaterasu, just as Sasuke was, hence why they were able to dodge it. It took a fully charged shunshin with raiton cloak to avoid Amaterasu from Sasuke. Are you gonna make up Jiraiya being faster than Raikage now? Only time he's shown speed was against Pain, and that was in Sage MOde. Jiraiya won't be expecting Susano'o arrows either, so what makes you think he can dodge it?


Truth is, those are the results. The author wrote this manga and portrayed his characters as such. Obviously he did a great job if he got the majority of fans to believe in the strength of Minato for him to be in the finals, or that harashima could beat oro, or J-man could beat sasuke before EMS, etc. That is what it is. Stop whining and just enjoy.

Results of fans either making up stuff or voting for who they like. Like I said, read the posts in JIraiya vs. [anyone but Naruto], Minato vs. [anyone], or Itachi vs. [anyone], it's pretty much obvious. Minato hasn't shown strength, he's shown speed and ability to teleport. Even Bee was fast enough to react to Minato's Hiraishin twice. Either way, Minato coming this far isn't shocking since he is actually good enough. But, now that we learned that Nagato had no time limit, he'd have a better chance of beating Minato. I still don't know how Hashirama can beat Orochimaru, and no one's given a good reason apart from Orochimaru standing still and lettin himself be stabbed over and over.

The only reason why you find it whining, is because I'm disagreeing with you and your favorites winning. Whatever, people will find any reason to knock down any valid argument, whether it be accusation of whining, crying, or fanboyism.






Also, I think it was a bad choice to let Minato win. The amount of posts in Minato vs. Naruto so far rivals like what... less than an hour of Minato vs. Itachi? Naruto vs. Itachi was better, or even Naruto vs. Nagato. Only rell250 (I think) is arguing for MInato, actively anyway. So much for an exciting or active finals, lulz.

[jdw]

Sasuke's been shown to be able to fire multiple arrows consecutively. And if he sees Jiraiya flatten (this is all assuming he both sees the arrow coming and performs handseals faster than Kakashi can cast a Kamui...), then what's stopping Sasuke from just blasting the flattened Jiraiya while he's prone, or trying to unflatten himself?

I think that's the biggest annoyance is that there's an answer for everything Sasuke does per se... they're just either trash, or easily countered right back, bringing Jiraiya back to zero. And the only ones that wanted to accept the ease at which that could happen is those not willing to appease a member of the arian trinity.

Even if you think Sasuke has a counter for everything, that's fine but Jiraiya has abilities of his own. From the start most of you guys just discounted Jiraiya's jutsu without even trying to know or understand them.

If Sasuke goes to shoot another arrow, that is fine because Jiraiya has more time. If nothing else, Sasuke has to draw an arrow from his little sphere and then draw the bow to shoot. He can summon, attack, try to evade as he might be on the move, etc.

I know you find it annoying that other shinobi are trying to survive and win, perhaps in the next tournament Sasuke's EMS will force them to just lay down and die, or maybe they will commit seppuku.

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

@M3J: How would Naruto v. Itachi be better? Naruto has proven to be weak to Itachi's genjutsu on a few occasions. The arguments will end there in post #1.

[M3J]

People would actually argue that Naruto can break out of Itachi's genjutsu due to Kyuubi's chakra and stuff. Some, including me, would even argue Naruto can tank Tsukuyomi like Kakashi did, even if Minato was said to be incapable of doing so. Naruto knows about MS, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, so he can fight better. Unless, that's against the rules?

Plus, Naruto vs. Itachi fan fights would be more interesting. Itachi would definitely get more support than Minato is getting right now.

Or, we can nerf Naruto for discussion sake, not actually nerf him, but that'd confuse people. Minato vs. Naruto just isn't getting much posts. :\

[En Yang Ji]

I heard that interview was before Itachi's death on NF.

[bhasty]

If you can't describe to me how Jiraiya can beat Sasuke he CANT REALLY BEAT HIm and you know it. Nobody's whining we're right and you're not even listening to anything were trying to say. What exactly are you trying to say? We've seen Jiraiya fight right? We've seen AMaterasu in use right? We've seen Susanoo's arrown in use right? So how can Jiraiya from what we've seen counter those attacks? TELL ME PLS? He can't and Jiraiya has NEVER been showed to be physically fast enough nor has any jutsu of his been mentioned to counter those.http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v52/c484/6.html Kakashi doesn't use Kamui unless he absolutely needs to and he had to right off the bat. So how are we wrong here? You keep believing in the hype of certain characters instead of going by what we've seen is the complete wrong way to judge these matchups. Just ask Shikamaru's dad. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v56/c529/12.html Hey i provided manga proof GO FIGUREEE

No. He was making an arguments for jiraiya because he believe jiraiya can defeat sasuke. YOu got your own opinion that sasuke can defeat jiraiya and so are we.. Infact, my opinion is that sasuke doesn't have a chance at all.. So stop making such an arguments as if you're kishi himself.. Nobody knows who is more stronger, sasuke or jiraiya, except kishi.. So we're debating in this tournament for whom in our opinion could win. YOu got your own opinion and the others and so am i and the others.. So stop saying to anyone as if his lying and just trolling. He voted for jiriaya because he knows jiraiya can win over sasuke.

And We've never seen the true power of jiraiya or how he fought on a genjutsu user. If you're just basing his fighting style or fighting power in his fight against pain then it's irrelivant. Jiraiya will never fight sasuke the way he fought the paths.

And for amaterasu
- jiraiya was already encounter that technique by sealing. And he can defend himself by his hair mane jutsu, and i doubt the amaterasu can burn a metal instantly. Infact the manga never shown that the amaterasu can really burn a metal. It was just a trees, human and a bijuu.. I'm sure it was a ridiculous in your opinion and you can't accept that assumption. But for me, it was indeed a posible and jiriaya can really defend the amaterasu with his hair jutsu or by a sealing jutsu.

Susanoo arrow
- nah.. it was nothing compared to jiriaya's hair.. The arrow was barely pierce to the bridge. So it will never pierce into jiriaya's hair either.

If danzo can even grow a tree then jiraiya definitely can grow his hair.

[ninjabot]

Even if you think Sasuke has a counter for everything, that's fine but Jiraiya has abilities of his own. From the start most of you guys just discounted Jiraiya's jutsu without even trying to know or understand them.


How can you say that when you've seen the posts of people taking every answer you could think of, stacking it up next to Sasuke's own abilities, and then debating accordingly. This is where the annoyance came from. Not only do we know how Sasuke can counter Jiraiya's strategies, everyone who cares to see why he would/should win can just look at the arguments, they're all there. How to defend against his own jutsu, how to escape his Yomi Numa, how to guarantee he doesn't reach Sage Mode, and how to keep him and his summons out of commision with Genjutsu. And it's too easy. So you can't believably say no one acknowledged your arguments, because your argument was countered just as easily as everyone else's was.


If Sasuke goes to shoot another arrow, that is fine because Jiraiya has more time. If nothing else, Sasuke has to draw an arrow from his little sphere and then draw the bow to shoot. He can summon, attack, try to evade as he might be on the move, etc.


Sasuke forms 2 arrows, aims, fires one while holding the other. Even if Jiraiya manages to get off the handseals to turn flat and go prone, Sasuke's watching as he loads his next arrow. Easy enough, he's got friggin' 3 arms and 6 fingers on each hand. Recovering from his flattened position (he hasn't shown an ability to run while flattened. A strong gust of wind is likely his greatest enemy in this form) gives Sasuke the time it takes for the second arrow to hit, an Amaterasu to hit, a Goukakyuu to be performed and hit, or a Genjutsu prepared to hit him in the eye while he unflattens. That's the last jutsu someone would want to use against a ninja with AoE attacks.



I know you find it annoying that other shinobi are trying to survive and win, perhaps in the next tournament Sasuke's EMS will force them to just lay down and die, or maybe they will commit seppuku.


LOL, snide comment aside, Sasuke can already do that with Genjutsu. Step one, paralyze opponent from looking him in the eye. Step two, decapitate them. Endgame. Therein lies the problem. The ease at which Sasuke could win was ignored to the point that he was downgraded to Jiraiya's equal. And I hope there's not another tournament. Ever. I sincerely do. These very same reactions happnened in the Bleach tournament so there's no way the mods didn't expect the same reactions.

[Rikudou King]

How would Naruto v. Itachi be better? Naruto has proven to be weak to Itachi's genjutsu on a few occasions. The arguments will end there in post #1. It would be better because while Naruto has no real genjutsu counter, his inherent defenses in Sage Mode or Rikudou Mode would men that Itachi couldn't kill him the first time around, thus allowing Naruto to survive long enough for the genjutsu to end and him to prepare accordingly.


No. He was making an arguments for jiraiya because he believe jiraiya can defeat sasuke. YOu got your own opinion that sasuke can defeat jiraiya and so are we.. Infact, my opinion is that sasuke doesn't have a chance at all.. So stop making such an arguments as if you're kishi himself.. Nobody knows who is more stronger, sasuke or jiraiya, except kishi.. So we're debating in this tournament for whom in our opinion could win. YOu got your own opinion and the others and so am i and the others.. So stop saying to anyone as if his lying and just trolling. He voted for jiriaya because he knows jiraiya can win over sasuke. Um, no. Kishi has made it pretty clear that Sasuke is stronger. Apart from the inherent strength the Sharingan grants, Sasuke is suppose to be on par with the current Naruto, who is far superior to Jiraiya. As Naruto's rival, Sasuke's not gonna be weaker then a guy Naruto surpassed a hundred chapters ago.


And We've never seen the true power of jiraiya or how he fought on a genjutsu user. If you're just basing his fighting style or fighting power in his fight against pain then it's irrelivant. Jiraiya will never fight sasuke the way he fought the paths. We did see the true power of Jiraiya. He was fighting at his best against Pain. And we saw in Naruto's flashback Jiraiya's method of fighting genjutsu, which wouldn't work at all against Sasuke.


And for amaterasu
- jiraiya was already encounter that technique by sealing. And he can defend himself by his hair mane jutsu, and i doubt the amaterasu can burn a metal instantly. Infact the manga never shown that the amaterasu can really burn a metal. It was just a trees, human and a bijuu.. I'm sure it was a ridiculous in your opinion and you can't accept that assumption. But for me, it was indeed a posible and jiriaya can really defend the amaterasu with his hair jutsu or by a sealing jutsu. It took Jiraiya time to seal the embers of Amaterasu. there would be no way for him to pull that off in actual battle. Amaterasu is fire, meaning there's no reason it can't burn metal and we have sen that Amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes. That aside, it burning through metal matters little since Jiraiya's hair is nowhere near that strong. When Sasuke concentrates on Jiraiya, he would be turn to ashes within seconds.


Susanoo arrow
- nah.. it was nothing compared to jiriaya's hair.. The arrow was barely pierce to the bridge. So it will never pierce into jiriaya's hair either. Exactly what evidence is there that shows that Jiraiya's hair could stand up to one of Susanoo's arrows? The arrow didn't "barely" pierce anything. It got embedded nearly halfway into the bridge.


If danzo can even grow a tree then jiraiya definitely can grow his hair. Danzo was able to grow a tree nearly instant. The same with Kakashi and Kamui. Kakashi had the Sharingan and he still had no other option then to use Kamui to block it.

[Rikudou Sennin]

Um, no. Kishi has made it pretty clear that Sasuke is stronger. Apart from the inherent strength the Sharingan grants, Sasuke is suppose to be on par with the current Naruto, who is far superior to Jiraiya. As Naruto's rival, Sasuke's not gonna be weaker then a guy Naruto surpassed a hundred chapters ago.

Wait wait wait. What happed ? Jirayia lost to Pain, because of the suprise element. Naruto beat Pain while Pain was already weakend. Sasuke beat Killer Bee who fooled him according to Madara/Tobi . What did Zetzu say? "If you ask me, he is stronger than you right now, Sasuke"

Since then, what happend? Sasuke got his butt handed to him in Kage battles and he beat Danzo, only thing added to him was Susanno control. Naruto on the other hand learned AFTER Sasuke went offscreen for a long time now how to control Kyuubi. The Sage Mode Naruto was already stronger than MS Sasuke. And now he learned how to control Kyuubi. Its insane to think Sasuke is as strong as Naruto right now. Of course he will be once he reappers with EMS; but that is no fact for this tournament right now.



We did see the true power of Jiraiya. He was fighting at his best against Pain. And we saw in Naruto's flashback Jiraiya's method of fighting genjutsu, which wouldn't work at all against Sasuke.

How do you know? Thats what some people pointed out already. You assume because it happend to Ninja A that it can happen to Ninja B because Ninja A and Ninja B are equal. But that is no waterproof evidence. That is a fact. Which is way you assume Sasuke would win, while other assume Jiraiya can. No matter which facts we get, we can just assume because this isnt Dragonball.




It took Jiraiya time to seal the embers of Amaterasu. there would be no way for him to pull that off in actual battle. Amaterasu is fire, meaning there's no reason it can't burn metal and we have sen that Amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes. That aside, it burning through metal matters little since Jiraiya's hair is nowhere near that strong. When Sasuke concentrates on Jiraiya, he would be turn to ashes within seconds.

Jiraiya is a pro himself. He wouldnt get to beeing attacked by Amaterasu. He would hide in a toad, activate Sage Mode. Cast genjutsu (frong song) and remerge. As you can see, there are plenty ways to fight.



Exactly what evidence is there that shows that Jiraiya's hair could stand up to one of Susanoo's arrows? The arrow didn't "barely" pierce anything. It got embedded nearly halfway into the bridge.

You got a point. That is correct, but can you proof that is can pierce through. Dont show me the bridge, because we dont know how strong jiraiyas "needle hair" is. As you can see, again, all we alltogether do, is assume.



Danzo was able to grow a tree nearly instant. The same with Kakashi and Kamui. Kakashi had the Sharingan and he still had no other option then to use Kamui to block it.

That is absolutly correct. But what does this have to do with Jiraiya and Sasuke? Right, nothing.

[Rikudou King]

Wait wait wait. What happed ? Jirayia lost to Pain, because of the suprise element. Naruto beat Pain while Pain was already weakend. Sasuke beat Killer Bee who fooled him according to Madara/Tobi . What did Zetzu say? "If you ask me, he is stronger than you right now, Sasuke"

Since then, what happend? Sasuke got his butt handed to him in Kage battles and he beat Danzo, only thing added to him was Susanno control. Naruto on the other hand learned AFTER Sasuke went offscreen for a long time now how to control Kyuubi. The Sage Mode Naruto was already stronger than MS Sasuke. And now he learned how to control Kyuubi. Its insane to think Sasuke is as strong as Naruto right now. Of course he will be once he reappers with EMS; but that is no fact for this tournament right now. Um, both Pa and Tsunade pretty much stated that Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya. We were told this. And anyway, Jiraiya didn't lose because of surprise, he lost because he was outclassed. He couldn't do a thing to Pain on his own. For all the help Naruto got, he still held his own better then Jiraiya. Zetsu's words matter little, considering Madara himself believes that Sasuke has the potential to become more powerful then Nagato.

The only Kage Sasuke had trouble with was Ee and he was holding his own quite fine until Ee used his max speed. Ee, who Rikudou Naruto is comparable to in speed, reflexes, and probably strength. If Sasuke could content with someone as fast and strong as Rikudou Naruto, how exactly is he not as strong as Naruto?


How do you know? Thats what some people pointed out already. You assume because it happend to Ninja A that it can happen to Ninja B because Ninja A and Ninja B are equal. But that is no waterproof evidence. That is a fact. Which is way you assume Sasuke would win, while other assume Jiraiya can. No matter which facts we get, we can just assume because this isnt Dragonball. It didn't just happen to "ninja A". It also happen to "ninja B", "ninja C", "ninja D", and "ninja E". The tools required to counter a Sharingan genjutsu has been made clear, and Jiraiya doesn't have neither the Bijuu or the Sharingan to save him. Without them, he'll end up like every other ninja who has gone against the Sharingan genjutsu, trapped with no way out.


Jiraiya is a pro himself. He wouldnt get to beeing attacked by Amaterasu. He would hide in a toad, activate Sage Mode. Cast genjutsu (frong song) and remerge. As you can see, there are plenty ways to fight. Jiraiya would get attacked by Amaterasu because he wouldn't have a single clue about it. Not only does he not have a clue it exist, but he doesn't have the reflexes to act before it hits. Hiding in a toad or using Ma and Pa isn't gonna work, as Sasuke can simply take control of them or kill them. Jiraiya has no way to prevent Sasuke from doing so.


You got a point. That is correct, but can you proof that is can pierce through. Dont show me the bridge, because we dont know how strong jiraiyas "needle hair" is. As you can see, again, all we alltogether do, is assume. Why wouldn't it be able to pierce through? It's no as if Jiraiya's hair has been said to be some absolute defense. Heck, we saw the needles weren't even that strong when powered by natural energy. By default, you're suppose to assume it would work unless you have proof otherwise.


That is absolutly correct. But what does this have to do with Jiraiya and Sasuke? Right, nothing. It has plenty to do. Jiraiya hasn't shown any reaction comparable to Kakashi, thus if Kakashi can't react to the arrows, then there's no way Jiraiya's gonna do so.

[Rikudou Sennin]

You are making the things how you want them to look. Thats common and normal for a person to do. Anybody wants to prove his points.

Nevermind. Its completly useless talking about it because everybody will stand by his opinion.

[jdw]

@Ninajbot: Sasuke's abilities allow him to win in those ways if other shinobi don't do anything, but everyone who is not fodder is trying to survive and win with their own skills. How many victories does Sasuke have to genjutsu + decapitation from the outset? Not many, because people fight back, lol. Could Sasuke draw 17 arrows at once, sure, but he usually draws one, sometimes 2. If he draws one and an opponent takes action, then the fight continues. If he draws two and shoots the second straight away, maybe the opponent dies. But why should I assume it goes your way, and Sasuke has his second arrow always in hand? If Sasuke's first arrow is avoided, it might be likely for him to draw two the second time, because now he has seen the problem, but at this point the opponent has also seen the arrow.

Even if Sasuke can escape the swamp, it is possible for Jiraiya to use that time to enter a barrier and come out in sage mode. Although you have sealed Sage Mode from the start of the match, I think it is unreasonable to do so. For instance, Jiraiya has the means to be untraceable in the environment while obtaining sage mode if there is any water around. Jiraiya can get to sage mode using toads as sacrifices to genjutsu or Susanoo. If they get too troubling when controlled by Sasuke, he can just release the jutsu or let them die.

---------- Post added at 07:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

On Itachi v Naruto being better than Minato v. Naruto:


It would be better because while Naruto has no real genjutsu counter, his inherent defenses in Sage Mode or Rikudou Mode would men that Itachi couldn't kill him the first time around, thus allowing Naruto to survive long enough for the genjutsu to end and him to prepare accordingly.

You say this now because you don't actually have to say it in a thread where you and the rest of the Uchiha contingent is coming up with ways for Itachi to mockingly kill Naruto, who would be trapped in Tsukuyomi. The other day Ninjabot came up with some creepy scenario of someone being genjutsu'd, sliced up, and being kicked down hills of salt. I can imagine what would happen if you guys had a whole thread to torture Naruto with Tsukuyomi.

[xXan]

@Ninajbot: Sasuke's abilities allow him to win in those ways if other shinobi don't do anything, but everyone who is not fodder is trying to survive and win with their own skills. How many victories does Sasuke have to genjutsu + decapitation from the outset? Not many, because people fight back, lol. Could Sasuke draw 17 arrows at once, sure, but he usually draws one, sometimes 2. If he draws one and an opponent takes action, then the fight continues. If he draws two and shoots the second straight away, maybe the opponent dies. But why should I assume it goes your way, and Sasuke has his second arrow always in hand? If Sasuke's first arrow is avoided, it might be likely for him to draw two the second time, because now he has seen the problem, but at this point the opponent has also seen the arrow.

Even if Sasuke can escape the swamp, it is possible for Jiraiya to use that time to enter a barrier and come out in sage mode. Although you have sealed Sage Mode from the start of the match, I think it is unreasonable to do so. For instance, Jiraiya has the means to be untraceable in the environment while obtaining sage mode if there is any water around. Jiraiya can get to sage mode using toads as sacrifices to genjutsu or Susanoo. If they get too troubling when controlled by Sasuke, he can just release the jutsu or let them die.

---------- Post added at 07:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

On Itachi v Naruto being better than Minato v. Naruto:



You say this now because you don't actually have to say it in a thread where you and the rest of the Uchiha contingent is coming up with ways for Itachi to mockingly kill Naruto, who would be trapped in Tsukuyomi. The other day Ninjabot came up with some creepy scenario of someone being genjutsu'd, sliced up, and being kicked down hills of salt. I can imagine what would happen if you guys had a whole thread to torture Naruto with Tsukuyomi.

The thing is Naruto HAS the counters to MS and genjutsu. Naruto already knows Uchiha = not look at eyes(and fights acordinly as is showed in the manga) + people can put you in genjutsu with a finger(so he is not going to look at Itachi at all before he creates some clones). Naruto starts the fight with 30 clones running about making Amaterasu and Genjutsu irrelevant. After the 30 clones are out he can chose what mode to use. RM or SM and have HUGE chanses of winning. Minato on the other hand has absolutly no way of countering genjutsu. If he could AT LEAST summon clones(like 2-3)... But he never showed even that.

Now i am not stating Naruto would win vs Itachi, i am stating he has a chanse as there is a logical way to do it.

PS. Naruto is not going to know the man before him can use genjutsu with a finger, just the fact that he can end up in genjutsu even trough body movement.

[ninjabot]

@Ninajbot: Sasuke's abilities allow him to win in those ways if other shinobi don't do anything, but everyone who is not fodder is trying to survive and win with their own skills. How many victories does Sasuke have to genjutsu + decapitation from the outset? Not many, because people fight back, lol.


There's more to it than that. Not only did those ninja fight back , but they had the means to guarantee escape from Genjutsu. Orochimaru was extremely versed in Genjutsu (as far as having a max stat). Deidara escaped thanks to training his eye to counter ocular Genjutsu beforehand. Bee had a bijuu to disrupt his chakra. And he did attempt just that with Danzou (genjutsu, then a stab right afterword) but couldn't because he saw through his Tsukuyomi after a certain amount of time...and had also prepped a paralysis seal before that point which saved him. One could even argue his ten damn Sharingan broke him out of the Tsukuyomi, as we actually see the eyes on his arm twitch right before his realization that he's trapped in a Genjutsu. Jiraiya's got none o' these options.

But I'm not just bringing his Genjutsu strength at face value, my point is that you're dead wrong about ninja not fighting Sasuke back in the instances where he actually got his Genjutsu to work because almost every time he caught someone with Genjutsu, they were on the offensive. Orochimaru was attempting to take over his body, approaching him. Bee was moving at chakra shroud speeds and was felled by one instantly. Deidara was using C4, saw through one, and was caught by the second. Raikage was super-charged to the point that Genjutsu couldn't work, also was crushing Juugo. Danzo wasn't on the offensive, but had the high ground. Second instant though, he WAS on the offensive. All S-rank ninja. All fighting back. All but one effected by his Genjutsu, whether it guaranteed Sasuke's victory, or only held the opponent back momentarily. There was ALWAYS a chance to hit them WHILE they were fighting back.



Could Sasuke draw 17 arrows at once, sure, but he usually draws one, sometimes 2. If he draws one and an opponent takes action, then the fight continues. If he draws two and shoots the second straight away, maybe the opponent dies. But why should I assume it goes your way, and Sasuke has his second arrow always in hand? If Sasuke's first arrow is avoided, it might be likely for him to draw two the second time, because now he has seen the problem, but at this point the opponent has also seen the arrow.


Because you have to have an answer for every scenario both offensively and defensively and, before even posting them, question how the opponent may escape/counter it to begin with. I even take the time to think of how my own scenarios could fail. When you mentioned him being caught in Yomi Numa I instantly thought:

1: Not if he's already flying.
2: If he IS caught, summoning a hawk to pull him into the sky out of the ground works.
3: His eyesight isn't bothered by Yomi Numa. Dropping an Amaterasu on Jiraiya guarantees he can't capitalize on Sasuke's immobile stance.
4: Is he even sure he's the real Sasuke? He could be a Genjutsu sitting there sinking as Sasuke stabs him in the back.
5: Susanoo doesn't seem to have actual space in between it that muck can seep through. He could very well seep to the bottom in Susanoo, pushing the muck outwards til he touches the ground. Maybe.
6: Yomi Numa is Doton. Raiton has been shown to negate Doton's special effects, so Raiton might possibly negate the suction forces of the muck, turning it into plain old mud. I can't prove this one, but it's totally possible.
7: Handseals to perform the jutsu. Jiraiya could very well be performing seals right infront of Sasuke before reaching to the ground. If that's the case, Sasuke expects an attack from the surface of the ground thanks to the predicting abilities of the Sharingan and Jiraiya's body language. From there he defends accordingly (running, climbing trees or cliffsides, jumping in water, summoning hawk)


Ditto for the Susanoo arrow example, the instant you mentioned flattening to dodge one arrow, I took the weaknesses of said scenario (handseals required, likely immobile while flat, takes time to unflatten, leaves you weak to AoE attacks) and adjusted accordingly. But I also came to the conclusion that Sasuke can indeed have multiple arrows made from the beginning because he didn't need to "learn" against Kakashi as you say. The instant he decided he wanted Kakashi dead he fired two arrows back to back to have a wider arc, making up for his weakening aim most likely. This tournament is a fight to the death, meaning Sasuke's in a mindset where he wants to guarantee a chance to hit his opponent. He starts the fight in "make sure Jiraiya dies" mode. Trial and error comes AFTER his bloodlust doesn't work.

It's no different from the time you said "And what is Jiraiya doing while Sasuke's doing this?", as if to imply he was already taking actions that would keep him out of Genjutsu. The point is, no matter what he's doing, if he is indeed looking at him to attack, he is always, ALWAYS susceptible to Sasuke locking eyes with him. He's not Minato fast, Raikage fast, or even Bee fast. Sasuke's locked eyes with ninja far faster, and ninja who knew better than to look him in the eyes in the first place. AND while they were on the offensive.



Even if Sasuke can escape the swamp, it is possible for Jiraiya to use that time to enter a barrier and come out in sage mode. Although you have sealed Sage Mode from the start of the match, I think it is unreasonable to do so. For instance, Jiraiya has the means to be untraceable in the environment while obtaining sage mode if there is any water around. Jiraiya can get to sage mode using toads as sacrifices to genjutsu or Susanoo. If they get too troubling when controlled by Sasuke, he can just release the jutsu or let them die.


It's gonna take Sasuke an entire chapter to get out of Yomi Numa? It's gonna take as long as it took for Jiraiya to sit still against Animal Realm just for him to get out? Do you care to reread that fight and guage how many years it took for Jiraiya to pull said feat off? And yes, Jiraiya can definately just release his toads, but if he wants them back he has to spend the necessary chakra. High chakra reserve or not, that doesn't mean his mistakes won't add up. As for untraceable in the water, I beg to differ. If Sasuke can see chakra underneath the ground, he can definately see chakra under water. And do you know what water can't protect Jiraiya from? That's right, Amaterasu. Not only does he slow his movement speed down, but Sasuke need only set the gourd he's hiding in aflame with Amaterasu.

While it's a waste of time to revisit this fight so many times, it's clearly far more interesting than the one going on right now. I wouldn't be surprised if this little spat lasts longer than the actual Naruto vs. Minato fight. Since this one IS actually a fight, and it's kept returning throughout the whole tournament. During and after each match we all keep going back to Sasuke vs. Jiraiya match because it's without a doubt the biggest upset in the entire tournament. The ENTIRE tournament. Moreso than Itachi vs. Minato.

[M3J]

Sasuke and Itachi will always be downplayed against MInato, Jiraiya, and Naruto because most people can't handle latter three losing or possibly losing to Uchiha, their enemy. Anyway, most statements aren't necessarily facts or not exactly clearcut facts. Tsunade and Pa said Naruto surpassed Jiraiya, but that could be in usage of Sage Mode. Until Naruto learns more jutsu, I can't really consider him to have surpassed Jiraiya, even if he can beat Jiraiya.


Also, lulz: Minato was hyped up as powerful, people said he could beat anyone, but once Minato faces Naruto, he's like a whimpering puppy, getting beaten easily. Guess even Minato's fodder compared to the current Naruto....

[ninjabot]

It's a shame, because Minato is a trillion times cooler than Naruto could ever be. It's sad to see him trounced so handily by such a moron. I mean, he's like a damn blue eyed Itachi. Which infact is likely his appeal.

[M3J]

What the... how is Naruto a moron? He may not be socially adept, but he's a pretty good fighter and quite intelligent in terms of combat.

[Ryokahn]

People are taking all this way too seriously, so much for the tourny being a fun distraction.

Minato vs Naruto, to me, kind of feels like Naruto Part 1 vs Naruto Shippuden. Minato was designed to be epic by Part 1 standards, when the strongest ninjas still, well, seemed like ninjas. Naruto now becoming epic is happening in Shippuden, when the strongest characters don't really fight like ninjas at all and seem more like DBZ characters. Part 1's characters were endlessly more interesting (to me), but as soon as Naruto became able to fire off 6 rasengans at once with magic gumdrop energy arms, shoot shuriken-sized Rasen-shurikens from his finger tips, and became arguably the fastest nin alive... it doesn't seem realistic for anyone to stand a chance against him.

[Rikudou King]

You say this now because you don't actually have to say it in a thread where you and the rest of the Uchiha contingent is coming up with ways for Itachi to mockingly kill Naruto, who would be trapped in Tsukuyomi. The other day Ninjabot came up with some creepy scenario of someone being genjutsu'd, sliced up, and being kicked down hills of salt. I can imagine what would happen if you guys had a whole thread to torture Naruto with Tsukuyomi. Uchiha contingent? Anyway, that's pretty presumptuous of you to say that. When have I ever done something like that? When have anyone ever did that in an actual thread? Was Mei mockingly killed? How about Gaara, Madara, or Minato? I don't recall any incredible descriptions of torture being done in any of their threads. So to presume that it would been done to Naruto is just wrong, especially since no one has done it before now.

[ninjabot]

Would you rather place your hopes on the guy that always stumbles before figuring out how to beat the opponent, or the guy that figures out a way to beat you just from watching and paying attention? Naruto's fighting style up til' now relied on second chances after full-on assaults, not systematically figuring out the enemy's fighting style through insight and deduction.

Naruto's fighting style works against people trying to capture him for his tailed beast, but not ninja in a tournament that want him dead. At this point he's powerful enough that his lapses in common sense won't get his ass killed, but back in the day Kakuzu had him were it not for Kakashi and Yamato saving him. Stuff like that.

EDIT: You'll likely site his actions in the fight against Pein as proof of his strategy changing, but you risk forgetting that he already knew who he was dealing with, thus he knew what to do against each enemy. Pretty much everything after that has been a complete test of strength or speed against ninja he was superior to, so there was no actual fight. Just a flexing of muscles (punching Kisame, but spraining his ankle,outrunning Raikage after being swatted multiple times, stomping a bunch of weakling Zetsu clones that he was already stronger than).

[White Silver King]

Minato vs Naruto, to me, kind of feels like Naruto Part 1 vs Naruto Shippuden. Minato was designed to be epic by Part 1 standards, when the strongest ninjas still, well, seemed like ninjas. Naruto now becoming epic is happening in Shippuden, when the strongest characters don't really fight like ninjas at all and seem more like DBZ characters. Part 1's characters were endlessly more interesting (to me), but as soon as Naruto became able to fire off 6 rasengans at once with magic gumdrop energy arms, shoot shuriken-sized Rasen-shurikens from his finger tips, and became arguably the fastest nin alive... it doesn't seem realistic for anyone to stand a chance against him.
That's what bores me about Naruto. It can go either of two ways

1) It can end after the War (including Naruto's final face-off against Sasuke)
2) It can be just like Bleach and Naruto's power can get downgraded so as to not take out every opponent he encounters without having to move.

[UchihaHunter]

Uchiha contingent? Anyway, that's pretty presumptuous of you to say that. When have I ever done something like that? When have anyone ever did that in an actual thread? Was Mei mockingly killed? How about Gaara, Madara, or Minato? I don't recall any incredible descriptions of torture being done in any of their threads. So to presume that it would been done to Naruto is just wrong, especially since no one has done it before now.

ninjabot actually came up with that in the Itachi vs. Minato thread, IIRC, but considering that the person voicing his complaint about it said something about Uchiha fanboys being willing to give up their scrotum to see Itachi fight at full power...I'm not really seeing what jdw's point is.

Personally, I think it's still hard for Naruto to overcome genjutsu without the Kyuubi's help, but whether it's a "creepy scenario" or not, we've seen someone get stabbed continuously for 72 hours...that's pretty damn creepy on its own, lol

[DementedKirby]

Hadn't thought of the low tier paired with high tier. It would make even the more worthless ninja of the low tier useful. Imagine Tenten throwing minato's kunai's for him lol. At least then she would have some worth.:tem

Lol! I think that TenTen is so worthless that even if she would be paired up with Minato, she'd lose :p. Minato would probably put her out of her misery just so he wouldn't have to put up with defending her against their opponents :D.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not surprised that Minato won. I actually expected even more votes for Itachi. I expected Itachi to lose by less than 10 points. I voted for Itachi, because thinking about it carefully, I really didn't see anyway for anyone to bypass Itachi's Susano'o. That trumped my vote for him even if he was made unnecessarily ill and blind in this tournament. If Itachi weren't blind or sick he would've pulled the win over Minato no problem. Minato is epic, but i always thought that if someone were to defeat Minato it' be Itachi.

[M3J]

Naruto and Sasuke both have their own way of fighting which worked for them. Naruto does stumble, but it's not like Sasuke has an easy time either. They both get the job done, and if you look at it, Naruto's got the job done more than Sasuke has, not having have lost any fight so far, except for VotE.

You forget that in Part I, people were actually trying to kill him. Naruto fought Kiba and came up with a way to beat him with a new taijutsu, which apparently according to Kakashi was taken from Sasuke's taijutsu move, Lion Barrage. When Naruto was fighting Neji, he predicted Neji would think the real Naruto would stay back and thus go for the "real" Naruto in the back and came pretty close to hitting Neji. Naruto had no idea of Kaiten or just exactly Neji was capable of, apart from Jyuuken. When he and Neji got blasted and were on the ground, Naruto timed his shadow clone perfectly so he could trick Neji into thinking Naruto was defeated, while the real Naruto jumped up and took out Neji.


Naruto wasn't 100% sure who he was dealing with. He was still able to come up with strategies on the fly. Information alone doesn't help against a powerful enemy if you don't know what to do, and from the looks of it Naruto was told information in battle, not before. While Naruto did sprain his ankle speedblitzing Kisame, he wasn't used to the mode at all. Nor was he trying to fight Raikage when Naruto was running.

Naruto may not think and dissect like Sasuke, but his way of fighting is different. He tricks enemies and gets them in a position where Naruto can do damage. It's probably due to his chakra that he can afford to use jutsu, but Naruto's way works even if he fails the first time around. Even when he's failing, it's not for nothing as his fight against Neji proved. Even in his first fight against Zabuza, he managed to outsmart Zabuza to free Kakashi.

[jdw]

ninjabot actually came up with that in the Itachi vs. Minato thread, IIRC, but considering that the person voicing his complaint about it said something about Uchiha fanboys being willing to give up their scrotum to see Itachi fight at full power...I'm not really seeing what jdw's point is.

Personally, I think it's still hard for Naruto to overcome genjutsu without the Kyuubi's help, but whether it's a "creepy scenario" or not, we've seen someone get stabbed continuously for 72 hours...that's pretty damn creepy on its own, lol

My point: The guy saying Naruto v. Itachi would be better than Naruto v. Minato is not being honest because all that would happen is that every person, myself included, would really just say: Naruto loses due to genjutsu. Naruto lost to Itachi's genjutsu on a few occasions already, so there is really no reason to think he will escape now when he does not have Kyuubi partnership in his pocket. Sure, we could spend time trying to say Naruto might win, but his shown weakness to genjutsu and lack of knowledge about Itachi's finger genjutsu would just lead to Genjutsu + decapitation, or Genjutsu + Amaterasu target. This guy argued against Minato, who does not have a positive or negative genjutsu status, saying he will be put in genjutsu and killed basically immediately, and now I am supposed to think that he will take Naruto, who has a massive negative genjutsu status and suddenly think it will be more interesting? -_-;

[EMS]

i agree that if someone using genjutsu against naruto is a loose for naruto but i don't agree with it, itachi was the only one with a unique genjutsu that almost anybody couldn't fight it and we haven't see nobody like itachi but i think naruto is in the level to fight itachi and sasuke but people still doubt that naruto can really pull it thw against genjutsu users but i believe naruto is ready and now more than ever because itachi told naruto that he was right to trusting naruto to deal with sasuke and now itachi pulling that crow out of naruto mouth that could be the key to deal with sasuke's EMS.

[M3J]

My point: The guy saying Naruto v. Itachi would be better than Naruto v. Minato is not being honest because all that would happen is that every person, myself included, would really just say: Naruto loses due to genjutsu. Naruto lost to Itachi's genjutsu on a few occasions already, so there is really no reason to think he will escape now when he does not have Kyuubi partnership in his pocket. Sure, we could spend time trying to say Naruto might win, but his shown weakness to genjutsu and lack of knowledge about Itachi's finger genjutsu would just lead to Genjutsu + decapitation, or Genjutsu + Amaterasu target. This guy argued against Minato, who does not have a positive or negative genjutsu status, saying he will be put in genjutsu and killed basically immediately, and now I am supposed to think that he will take Naruto, who has a massive negative genjutsu status and suddenly think it will be more interesting? -_-;

Well, it'd be more interesting than Minato vs. Naruto. There will be some people that will argue Naruto can escape Itachi's genjutsu since he's the "perfect" jinchuuriki and stuff. I've thought along that lines too, but it's always shocking how people can come up with counters. It'll definitely be far more interesting than majority saying Naruto will win and few defending Minato since, as we've seen, there are ardent Naruto supporters and Itachi/Uchiha/Sharingan haters.

I never said Itachi's genjutsu would lead to Minato losing a head, I said it was a possible. Only time I ever said it as a definite was to counter people who said Minato could oneshot Itachi or something. I've even said Naruto and Minato could tank a Tsukuyomi. -_-;

[bhasty]

Um, no. Kishi has made it pretty clear that Sasuke is stronger. Apart from the inherent strength the Sharingan grants, Sasuke is suppose to be on par with the current Naruto, who is far superior to Jiraiya. As Naruto's rival, Sasuke's not gonna be weaker then a guy Naruto surpassed a hundred chapters ago..

No. Sasuke with MS isn't on par with sage mode naruto. Kishi has made it very clear that naruto is much stronger than sasuke with MS through zetsu.


We did see the true power of Jiraiya. He was fighting at his best against Pain. And we saw in Naruto's flashback Jiraiya's method of fighting genjutsu, which wouldn't work at all against Sasuke..

No, we're not. Jiraiya was fighting the six paths and he was almost defeated them. DEVA path admitted that. But we never seen the actual fight of jiraiya and the 6 paths. But if jiraiya almost won that fight, then he has the power to stomp sasuke. The six paths, with 6 rinnegan's power is much powerful than sasuke. If jiraiya was giving a hell of a fight to the paths and he was almost defeated that six paths, then sasuke isn't on the same level of jiraiya.

And i think the method of fighting a genjutsu is depend on the shinobi's caliber. And we all know that jiraiya has a high caliber. If jiraiya's method of fighting a genjutsu isn't enough for naruto to escape from itachi's genjutsu then it will have a different result if it was jiraiya who was using that method to escape from itachi's genjutsu. Because jiraiya's caliber is diferent from naruto.


It took Jiraiya time to seal the embers of Amaterasu. there would be no way for him to pull that off in actual battle. Amaterasu is fire, meaning there's no reason it can't burn metal and we have sen that Amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes. That aside, it burning through metal matters little since Jiraiya's hair is nowhere near that strong. When Sasuke concentrates on Jiraiya, he would be turn to ashes within seconds..

Yeah. The amaterasu burn the samurai armor that was made up of metal. but the problem is, it never burn that armor instantly. The samurai was never harm with that amaterasu. And we all know that jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal. And where did you get that information that the amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes.? There's no such thing as that in the manga. The user can only control that fire. no more, no less..


Exactly what evidence is there that shows that Jiraiya's hair could stand up to one of Susanoo's arrows? The arrow didn't "barely" pierce anything. It got embedded nearly halfway into the bridge..

No. the head of the arrow was still visible to the bridge. So basically, it was just barely peirce to the bridge. If jiraiya's hair is strong enough to hold a summon of pain, then deflecting those arrow is a piece of cake.


Danzo was able to grow a tree nearly instant. The same with Kakashi and Kamui. Kakashi had the Sharingan and he still had no other option then to use Kamui to block it.

Instantly.? nope. It takes almost a 2 or 3 seconds for me. and jiraiya can grow his hair in an instant.. And i think kakashi is different, because he doesn't have a hair technique like jiriaya so basically he was relying to his MS. Afterall, it was his powerfull technique to teleport anything into another dimension.

[ninjabot]

No. Sasuke with MS isn't on par with sage mode naruto. Kishi has made it very clear that naruto is much stronger than sasuke with MS through zetsu.


Where in the manga was this stated or even implied? Did Sage Naruto gain an anti-Genjutsu power up that everyone missed except you? Has Sage Naruto shown speed comperable to Bee, let alone Raikage? Let me guess, because Naruto can survive falling on a rock, he can survive Amaterasu?



And i think the method of fighting a genjutsu is depend on the shinobi's caliber. And we all know that jiraiya has a high caliber. If jiraiya's method of fighting a genjutsu isn't enough for naruto to escape from itachi's genjutsu then it will have a different result if it was jiraiya who was using that method to escape from itachi's genjutsu. Because jiraiya's caliber is diferent from naruto.


And Orochimaru is the same caliber as Jiraiya. Infact, technically, he's of a higher caliber as he was considered for Kage status over Jiraiya. You saw how much that caliber helped him out of Genjutsu though. Absolutely no reason to believe Jiraiya would do better. At all.



Yeah. The amaterasu burn the samurai armor that was made up of metal. but the problem is, it never burn that armor instantly. The samurai was never harm with that amaterasu. And we all know that jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal. And where did you get that information that the amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes.? There's no such thing as that in the manga. The user can only control that fire. no more, no less..


Itachi focused his eyesight on the inside of a fire toad's stomach, which is naturally flame retardant. It burned right through. Sasuke focused his eyesight on Danzou with his Amaterasu and he burned until nothing was left. Sasuke didn't focus on the samurai, as he was looking for Raikage. The flames simply burned like natural flame.

As for Jiraiya sealing Amaterasu to stop it from killing him, how does he manage this while his body is set aflame? He has to pull out a scroll, pull out ink and a brush, write out the sealing characters, then suck them into the scroll. How in the hell does he do this while set aflame?



No. the head of the arrow was still visible to the bridge. So basically, it was just barely peirce to the bridge. If jiraiya's hair is strong enough to hold a summon of pain, then deflecting those arrow is a piece of cake.


That is not how strength is measured. A Boa Constricter (snake) can break a man's bones from squeezing him, but that doesn't mean it can tank an arrow being shot through it. Jiraiya's hair being strong enough to squeeze a giant summon simply means the amount of pressure he applied was too much for the summon to take. It doesn't mean that if he wraps himself in hair he's gonna prevent a giant arrow from piercing through. That's a terrible example.



Instantly.? nope. It takes almost a 2 or 3 seconds for me. and jiraiya can grow his hair in an instant.. And i think kakashi is different, because he doesn't have a hair technique like jiriaya so basically he was relying to his MS. Afterall, it was his powerfull technique to teleport anything into another dimension.


No. Here's the prep Danzo needed to block the arrow:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c478/9.html

No handseals, no preperation at all. It simply sprang out in an instant. You even see the arrow is practically touching his shoulder before the tree erupts. THAT is instantaneous. Jiraiya's hair however?

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c374/4.html Handseals performed. Then? He aims his hair. That's one jutsu and it's already not as fast as what Danzou did.

[Rikudou King]

My point: The guy saying Naruto v. Itachi would be better than Naruto v. Minato is not being honest because all that would happen is that every person, myself included, would really just say: Naruto loses due to genjutsu. Naruto lost to Itachi's genjutsu on a few occasions already, so there is really no reason to think he will escape now when he does not have Kyuubi partnership in his pocket. Sure, we could spend time trying to say Naruto might win, but his shown weakness to genjutsu and lack of knowledge about Itachi's finger genjutsu would just lead to Genjutsu + decapitation, or Genjutsu + Amaterasu target. This guy argued against Minato, who does not have a positive or negative genjutsu status, saying he will be put in genjutsu and killed basically immediately, and now I am supposed to think that he will take Naruto, who has a massive negative genjutsu status and suddenly think it will be more interesting? -_-; As I pointed pout before, why Naruto could be caught in a genjutsu, his inherent defenses in Sage Mode and Rikudou Mode would mean that he wouldn't be easy to kill the first time he was caught. Itachi wouldn't know he needs something more powerful to injure Naruto during his first attempt to kill him. It wouldn't be until afterwards. So while Itachi is learning this, it would avoid Naruto to recover and go from there. Of course Naruto will eventually lose once Itachi traps him in a genjutsu and then toasts him with Amaterasu or slices him apart with Susanoo's blade, but Itachi isn't gonna employ those methods right off the bat, meaning Naruto would last longer then someone like Minato, who has no inherent defense to stop him from being killed by a simple stab while trapped in a genjutsu.


No. Sasuke with MS isn't on par with sage mode naruto. Kishi has made it very clear that naruto is much stronger than sasuke with MS through zetsu. And then Kishi had Sasuke fight nearly on par with not just the strongest ninja, but the fastest ninja in the world and have only minor trouble. Now considering Ee isn't too far from Naruto's level of speed and their likely even in strength, that clearly proves that MS Sasuke was at the very least on par with Sage Mode Naruto.


No, we're not. Jiraiya was fighting the six paths and he was almost defeated them. DEVA path admitted that. But we never seen the actual fight of jiraiya and the 6 paths. But if jiraiya almost won that fight, then he has the power to stomp sasuke. The six paths, with 6 rinnegan's power is much powerful than sasuke. If jiraiya was giving a hell of a fight to the paths and he was almost defeated that six paths, then sasuke isn't on the same level of jiraiya.

And i think the method of fighting a genjutsu is depend on the shinobi's caliber. And we all know that jiraiya has a high caliber. If jiraiya's method of fighting a genjutsu isn't enough for naruto to escape from itachi's genjutsu then it will have a different result if it was jiraiya who was using that method to escape from itachi's genjutsu. Because jiraiya's caliber is diferent from naruto. We did see the fight against the Paths. Jiraiya was on the run the majority of the fight. The only time he had an advantage was when he employed the Toad Song to trap them in a genjutsu. Every other thing he tried had little effect. Heck, without genjutsu, it took all his effect just to defeat a single Path. And Deva Path admitted that had Jiraiya known the truth about the real Nagato not being there, he would have won, which simply meant that Jiraiya wouldn't have wasted all his efforts attempting to fight the Path and would have taken the fight to Nagato himself.

Jiraiya, by his own admission, is not very good at genjutsu. Orochimaru, who was shown to have great genjutsu stats and Shi, who is an actual expect with genjutsu and has excellent chakra control, were both unable to do anything in front if Sasuke's genjutsu. At his best Jiraiya would do as well as them, which isn't that good at all.


Yeah. The amaterasu burn the samurai armor that was made up of metal. but the problem is, it never burn that armor instantly. The samurai was never harm with that amaterasu. And we all know that jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal. And where did you get that information that the amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes.? There's no such thing as that in the manga. The user can only control that fire. no more, no less.. That's because Sasuke didn't care about burning the samurai's armor. Amaterasu burns fastest and biggest when the user concentrates on it. Nothing suggest that Jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal. We saw this when Itachi used it on Sasuke's Fireball and when Sasuke used it on Danzo.


No. the head of the arrow was still visible to the bridge. So basically, it was just barely peirce to the bridge. If jiraiya's hair is strong enough to hold a summon of pain, then deflecting those arrow is a piece of cake. What? You don't see the head at all. The arrows are about five times the size of Sasuke (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v51/c478/8.html). When they hit Danzo, who is abut even with Sasuke in height, only about three times that length is still above ground (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v51/c479/2.html). And how are you comparing an animal summon with Susanoo's arrows? That doesn't even make sense. By that logic, the fact that is hair could barely get through the Panda means that his hair wouldn't stand a change against the superior defense of Susanoo and it's arrows of the same material.


Instantly.? nope. It takes almost a 2 or 3 seconds for me. and jiraiya can grow his hair in an instant.. And i think kakashi is different, because he doesn't have a hair technique like jiriaya so basically he was relying to his MS. Afterall, it was his powerfull technique to teleport anything into another dimension. It was instantly, which Jiraiya has never grown his hair out that fast. Kakashi specifically states that the arrows were so fast,. he had no time to dodge or anything. His only choice was to use his MS, something he reserves for last. Kakashi is not only faster the Jiraiya, but he had the advantage of prediction and he still could barely react. Jiraiya has no advantage like that. Heck, if his hair can't protect him from Orochimaru biting him, there's no way it would stop an arrow from Susanoo.

[benelori]

I think this hair defense thing is just thrown out there, like many of the arguments we've seen throughout the tournament...the best example were some of the arguments for Shodai, even against Naruto...Shodai control Bijuus he wins...same with Jiraiya...he can grow hair, so he can defend...

However there are problems with this...because there are questions like...does he know where to defend, does he know when to defend, how does he manage to counter attack and not forsake his defense?

So if anyone can answer these questions, regarding Amaterasu of course, not kunai attack, and in Jiraiya's favour, then I'm all ears...but let me remind everyone, that Jiraiya doesn't know about Amaterasu, so that means that he doesn't know when it's coming and were it lands...

[bhasty]

Correct me if im wrong, the MS is known in this tournament right.? And jiraiya already seen that technique. So basically, he was already knows about the amaterasu.. no.?

[benelori]

Correct me if im wrong, the MS is known in this tournament right.? And jiraiya already seen that technique. So basically, he was already knows about the amaterasu.. no.?

The basic principle behind this tournament is...just widely known aspects are known, in this case that the Uchiha has sharingan, and the possibility of Mangekyou...but only a select people know what those MS techniques are and those are the Uchiha...
So no, Jiraiya doesn't know about Amaterasu...and this was said on multiple occasions, both in this thread, and the fight thread when we had it...that's why I said a million times, that this tournament is different from the manga...in the manga the information flow is unchecked, and what was unknown 200 chapters ago, it is a widely known fact in the current chapter...

But not here...the only thing that we import from the manga and from newer chapters are the arsenal of techniques of each ninja, and how they use it

[bhasty]

Where in the manga was this stated or even implied? Did Sage Naruto gain an anti-Genjutsu power up that everyone missed except you? Has Sage Naruto shown speed comperable to Bee, let alone Raikage? Let me guess, because Naruto can survive falling on a rock, he can survive Amaterasu?.

Zetsu said that.. And there's no such thing that kishi clearly stated that sasuke was stronger than naruto. It was just your opinion. And also it was just an assumption that naruto in sage mode doesn't have a genjutsu resistance. Naruto in sage mode is different level than before he was caught by itachi's genjutsu. And i don't know if the speed of sage naruto where he was able to hit the robot pain with his rasengan isn't enough as a proof that sage mode naruto has a speed much greater than sasuke. And honestly, i doubt sasuke can even use his amaterasu on naruto. Sasuke knows that naruto prefer in close combat and so is he. But naruto's frog katas is enough for sasuke. Sasuke doesn't even know that naruto's taijutsu (frog katas) is much more deadlier than any taijutsu he encounter.


And Orochimaru is the same caliber as Jiraiya. Infact, technically, he's of a higher caliber as he was considered for Kage status over Jiraiya. You saw how much that caliber helped him out of Genjutsu though. Absolutely no reason to believe Jiraiya would do better. At all..

Honestly, this kind of logic isn't acceptable. Both of them is the same as sannin and has different level of caliber. They got different kinds of power up and techniques. So basically, their caliber isn't the same.




Itachi focused his eyesight on the inside of a fire toad's stomach, which is naturally flame retardant. It burned right through. Sasuke focused his eyesight on Danzou with his Amaterasu and he burned until nothing was left. Sasuke didn't focus on the samurai, as he was looking for Raikage. The flames simply burned like natural flame..

NAh.. Sasuke focused his eyesight on danzo, who use the izanagi, so basically, that danzo was just an illusion. It was the same as bunshin. And i think you didn't notice that everytime danzo was hit by arrows he goes *pooP*. He just disappear. And again, there's no such thing in the manga that the amaterasu burns as fast as the user wishes.. Stop giving sasuke a power that never mention in the manga.. it's not right..


As for Jiraiya sealing Amaterasu to stop it from killing him, how does he manage this while his body is set aflame? He has to pull out a scroll, pull out ink and a brush, write out the sealing characters, then suck them into the scroll. How in the hell does he do this while set aflame?.

That's why i said jiraiya can defend himself from amaterasu by his hair jutsu and write a seal and sealed it..




That is not how strength is measured. A Boa Constricter (snake) can break a man's bones from squeezing him, but that doesn't mean it can tank an arrow being shot through it. Jiraiya's hair being strong enough to squeeze a giant summon simply means the amount of pressure he applied was too much for the summon to take. It doesn't mean that if he wraps himself in hair he's gonna prevent a giant arrow from piercing through. That's a terrible example. .

How come it was a terrible example.? A hair that's strong as a metal can hold a summon and how come it can't prevent a giant arrow to pierce through.? Metal is much harder than the stone bridge.

[jdw]

Where in the manga was this stated or even implied? Did Sage Naruto gain an anti-Genjutsu power up that everyone missed except you? Has Sage Naruto shown speed comperable to Bee, let alone Raikage? Let me guess, because Naruto can survive falling on a rock, he can survive Amaterasu?

I think this (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+453+-+Eve+Of+The+Kage+Summit&prev=%3C%3C-+Prev&page=16) is what he is referring to:


http://oi55.tinypic.com/f04tc6.jpg

[ninjabot]

So if anyone can answer these questions, regarding Amaterasu of course, not kunai attack, and in Jiraiya's favour, then I'm all ears...but let me remind everyone, that Jiraiya doesn't know about Amaterasu, so that means that he doesn't know when it's coming and were it lands...


If I remember correctly the only ninja in the tournament with access to Amaterasu have been defeated, so it doesn't matter anymore whether the jutsu is known or not. Madara has confirmed access to Tsukuyomi, but that's it.

@jdw: Good, then it holds no wait whatsoever.

[jdw]

I am not sure it held no weight at the time when spoken, but the clash of fists at the Team 7 reunion leads me to believe they are on even ground right now. Naruto has leveled up and it was shown. Sasuke has leveled up, and although it has not been shown yet, it would be useless if it didn't at least put him on Naruto's level as a basic assumption.

[xXan]

I think this (http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+453+-+Eve+Of+The+Kage+Summit&prev=%3C%3C-+Prev&page=16) is what he is referring to:


http://oi55.tinypic.com/f04tc6.jpg

If he realy is refering to that ... Just lol.
Zetsu is stating creap. Not only does he state that its his personal opinion and not even himself is sure of it he also lies when he stated Naruto defeated Pein on his own.

EDIT: I have to state that my personal opinion is that Naruto was somewhat above Sasuke before his fight with Raikage where he actualy developed Susano and all those nice combos (Susano+Ama). But this is in a general term as Sasuke defenetly has the chanse to 1 shot Naruto with MS genjutsu if Naruto is not carefull.

[ninjabot]

I didn't mean insofar as their current levels, I meant at that exact point in time it held no weight to the argument he's trying to present right now. Naruto with Sage Mode being compared to MS Sasuke by the way. He's using a Sasuke who didn't know he had Amaterasu or Susanoo to stand in as a full MS-mastery Sasuke and Zetsu's comparison of PRE MS mastery Sasuke to Post Sage Mode Mastery Naruto. Bhasty thinks that Zetsu saw into the future into the fights against Raikage and Danzou and used that to guage that Sage Naruto was better than MS Sasuke.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------


That's why i said jiraiya can defend himself from amaterasu by his hair jutsu and write a seal and sealed it..


Oh! My bad. He's gonna stop the flames with his hair, cut his hair off, then sit down, pull out his scroll, pull out his ink, perform his handseals, write the words onto the scroll, and THEN seal away the flames. All while Sasuke sits there and watches.

Silly me.

[juUnior]

Previous fights: no shock in Naruto vs Ji-man fight, but Minato vs Itachi.. well, I expected an even fight, hehe, I didn't know who would be the victor, hyhy ^^

About the final: Naruto ftw! <3

[jdw]

I didn't mean insofar as their current levels, I meant at that exact point in time it held no weight to the argument he's trying to present right now. Naruto with Sage Mode being compared to MS Sasuke by the way. He's using a Sasuke who didn't know he had Amaterasu or Susanoo to stand in as a full MS-mastery Sasuke and Zetsu's comparison of PRE MS mastery Sasuke to Post Sage Mode Mastery Naruto. Bhasty thinks that Zetsu saw into the future into the fights against Raikage and Danzou and used that to guage that Sage Naruto was better than MS Sasuke.

A comparison has to occur at a point in time, and it won't always be when each person has reached their full potential of life at that moment. At the point of Zetsu's comment, Sasuke had Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and Sasuke knew it, but not Susanoo. Of course Sasuke's level would go up with the arrival of Susanoo, but it is hard to say if that would lead Zetsu to say that it put Sasuke above Naruto or on the same level.

[bhasty]

So madara is a liar then so is zetsu. Yeah, it was posible at all.. The lies of dou partner...

How come zetsu was lying when he stated that naruto defeated the 6 paths.? What kind of manga anyway where it was stated that naruto never defeated the pein on his own.?

naruto was indeed defeated the 6 paths. From the robot pain who was hit by his rasengan, the fat pain who killed twice, the summoning pain by rasengan, hell pain by FRS, human pain by rasengan and deva pain by rasengan. and naruto made nagato to commit suicide.. So basically, naruto defeated the 6 paths. plain and simple. so what zetsu said is true.

[ninjabot]

Sigh.

My point bhasty is that you CAN say "Back then, when Zetsu said so, Naruto was superior to Sasuke." That's not what you said though, is it? You stated that Sage Mode Naruto was superior to MS Sasuke, and used it as proof that Sage Mode Jiraiya could counter MS Sasuke just as Naruto would.

That's logic that doesn't hold up in any kind of debate anywhere.



No. Sasuke with MS isn't on par with sage mode naruto. Kishi has made it very clear that naruto is much stronger than sasuke with MS through zetsu.


There's the damning quote right there. Ofcourse he just said regular Naruto instead of SM Naruto but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[benelori]

So madara is a liar then so is zetsu. Yeah, it was posible at all.. The lies of dou partner...

How come zetsu was lying when he stated that naruto defeated the 6 paths.? What kind of manga anyway where it was stated that naruto never defeated the pein on his own.?

naruto was indeed defeated the 6 paths. From the robot pain who was hit by his rasengan, the fat pain who killed twice, the summoning pain by rasengan, hell pain by FRS, human pain by rasengan and deva pain by rasengan. and naruto made nagato to commit suicide.. So basically, naruto defeated the 6 paths. plain and simple. so what zetsu said is true.

You are confusing terms here mate...
Zetsu is not stating an information there, he's stating an opinion...so nobody calls him a liar, people just say his opinion doesn't count, doesn't have much weight, that's all...opinions aren't facts you know, and Zetsu clearly says the word personally there, so

[bhasty]

I didn't mean insofar as their current levels, I meant at that exact point in time it held no weight to the argument he's trying to present right now. Naruto with Sage Mode being compared to MS Sasuke by the way. He's using a Sasuke who didn't know he had Amaterasu or Susanoo to stand in as a full MS-mastery Sasuke and Zetsu's comparison of PRE MS mastery Sasuke to Post Sage Mode Mastery Naruto. Bhasty thinks that Zetsu saw into the future into the fights against Raikage and Danzou and used that to guage that Sage Naruto was better than MS Sasuke..

Sasuke was already knows how to use the amaterasu, tsukuyomi and the riblets/partial susanoo. He goes to the summit to test his new MS power and the power he was trying to combine, the amaterasu and the riblets susanoo. So zetsu was already knows that sasuke knows how to use his MS power. Then zetsu's opinion is true.

[jdw]

Perhaps they are saying that Naruto's intel counts against him, or the toads, who knows. I don't consider either a strike against Naruto. The toads are Naruto's to command, and Pain had intel on Naruto as well. He knew of Naruto and a jinchuuriki, and from Shizune he learned that Naruto was partnered with the toads, I don't think Myobokuzan can be considered a vacation getaway for randoms.

[benelori]

Sasuke was already knows how to use the amaterasu, tsukuyomi and the riblets/partial susanoo. He goes to the summit to test his new MS power and the power he was trying to combine, the amaterasu and the riblets susanoo. So zetsu was already knows that sasuke knows how to use his MS power. Then zetsu's opinion is true.

No no...the Zetsu opinion is an opinion...you said many times in your posts, that people are just assuming and stating their opinions, so that doesn't mean it's the truth...well the same can be applied here as well:p
But if you want opinions and maybe considered them as truth, then you might as well just take Naruto's opinion, after they met and Sasuke was blind

[ninjabot]

Sasuke was already knows how to use the amaterasu, tsukuyomi and the riblets/partial susanoo. He goes to the summit to test his new MS power and the power he was trying to combine, the amaterasu and the riblets susanoo. So zetsu was already knows that sasuke knows how to use his MS power. Then zetsu's opinion is true.


Dude, just stop. You haven't the slightest chance of proving Zetsu knew about Susanoo before Taka did. Likewise, that could very well have been the first time he had ever used it, as he stated there was "something he wanted to try". Not something he'd practiced over and over. We all know that it requires emotional and physical duress to manifest MS techniques, so a fight is needed to gain it.


@jdw: It's not a knock against Naruto. It's a knock against Sasuke, that's the point. He's stating Zetsu has knowledge he couldn't possibly have inorder to try to make Naruto look superior to MS Sasuke, pure and simple.

[xXan]

So madara is a liar then so is zetsu. Yeah, it was posible at all.. The lies of dou partner...

How come zetsu was lying when he stated that naruto defeated the 6 paths.? What kind of manga anyway where it was stated that naruto never defeated the pein on his own.?

naruto was indeed defeated the 6 paths. From the robot pain who was hit by his rasengan, the fat pain who killed twice, the summoning pain by rasengan, hell pain by FRS, human pain by rasengan and deva pain by rasengan. and naruto made nagato to commit suicide.. So basically, naruto defeated the 6 paths. plain and simple. so what zetsu said is true.

Yes he lied when he stated he defeated Pein ALONE. Let's put up a list on WHO defeated Pein:

1- JMan sacrifice to bring Naruto information on Pein.
2- The ENTIRE konoha fighting Pein and forcing Deva to go offline for some time (BIG DIFERENT here). Including Kakashi who died to ensure Chouji would get the info on Deva out. Nagato lost a good deal of chakra fighting the entire vilage.
3-Naruto and HUGE summons getting summoned for FREE before the fight starts (Naruto is not the one who summoned them).
4-3 huge summon, 2 elder frogs with great power.
5-Minato. If not for Minato leaving that part of himself to save Naruto's but he would have lost his mind and go Kyuubi mode completly.
6-Nagato killing himself after Naruto pulled his speech no jutsus.
7-Pein wanted him alive and spare his but and only whent for a incapacitate win. If Pein wanted him dead he would have died.
8-Prep time before the fight started and had those clones ready and started the fight in sage mode.

[M3J]

I think this hair defense thing is just thrown out there, like many of the arguments we've seen throughout the tournament...the best example were some of the arguments for Shodai, even against Naruto...Shodai control Bijuus he wins...same with Jiraiya...he can grow hair, so he can defend...

Jiraiya supporters like to make up facts and delude themselves in any way that Jiraiya can win against someone like Sasuke. Those that do not like Sasuke like to delude themselves that Sasuke's not as strong as he actually is, coming up with excuses.

If Jiraiya tries to hide in a toad to go into Sage Mode, what's stopping Sasuke from using Amaterasu on the toads or stabbing it with his sword or chidori? If Jiraiya uses his hair jutsu, Amaterasu will burn the hair and hit Jiraiya, or Sasuke can move the Amaterasu to Jiraiya's face, which would be open. Or, Sasuke can run and pierce Jiraiya's hair with a chidori.

There's so many ways Sasuke can counter and beat Jiraiya, but for those that support Jiraiya, it's all conveniently forgotten....

[benelori]

Jiraiya supporters like to make up facts and delude themselves in any way that Jiraiya can win against someone like Sasuke. Those that do not like Sasuke like to delude themselves that Sasuke's not as strong as he actually is, coming up with excuses.

If Jiraiya tries to hide in a toad to go into Sage Mode, what's stopping Sasuke from using Amaterasu on the toads or stabbing it with his sword or chidori? If Jiraiya uses his hair jutsu, Amaterasu will burn the hair and hit Jiraiya, or Sasuke can move the Amaterasu to Jiraiya's face, which would be open. Or, Sasuke can run and pierce Jiraiya's hair with a chidori.

There's so many ways Sasuke can counter and beat Jiraiya, but for those that support Jiraiya, it's all conveniently forgotten....

Well those arguments do have counters you know...Chidori is close combat, and I think Jiraiya wins in close combat, especially if he has his hair on the loose...using Amaterasu on the toads is not that effective either...

That's why the most effective way is to Amaterasu the body, or the face, when in mid range...Jiraiya has the chance to avoid those, I admit, if he wants to study Sasuke for example...but I think Sasuke is intelligent enough to decide that it's best to use Amaterasu, as a defensive move and try to hit the real Jiraiya, not some clone or Kawarimi...

It is a close call when it comes to Jiraiya, no matter the opponent, but Uchiha is just too hax IMO...

[bhasty]

Sigh.

My point bhasty is that you CAN say "Back then, when Zetsu said so, Naruto was superior to Sasuke." That's not what you said though, is it? You stated that Sage Mode Naruto was superior to MS Sasuke, and used it as proof that Sage Mode Jiraiya could counter MS Sasuke just as Naruto would.

That's logic that doesn't hold up in any kind of debate anywhere.





There's the damning quote right there. Ofcourse he just said regular Naruto instead of SM Naruto but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Well, i'm just replying to RK. He stated that kishi has made it very clear that sasuke is much stronger than jiraiya. Simply because naruto was already surpassed jiraiya, so sasuke who suppose to be on par to naruto, then sasuke also was already surpassed jiraiya.

My bad,. i forgot the sage mode. And it was suppose to be a sage mode naruto is much stronger than sasuke. and i think it was stated in my first sentence..

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 AM ----------


Dude, just stop. You haven't the slightest chance of proving Zetsu knew about Susanoo before Taka did. Likewise, that could very well have been the first time he had ever used it, as he stated there was "something he wanted to try". Not something he'd practiced over and over. We all know that it requires emotional and physical duress to manifest MS techniques, so a fight is needed to gain it..

Zetsu seen the fight between itachi and sasuke. He seen itachi's susanoo. And hell no.. How could sasuke going to the kage summit without being prepared. And it's pretty abvious that sasuke was already practicing his MS power on how to use them before going into the battle.. Whats more if he seen how powerful it is by looking it on itachi.. And do you really think that it has been the first time for sasuke to used his susanoo at the summit.? i don't think so..

How would he know to activate the riblets susanoo to counter raikage's attack.? is that an accident or coincedence or he activate it by luck.?

He knows how to activate the susanoo simply because he knows how to use it. as simple as that..


Sasuke stated that those who has a double mangekyu sharingan can activate the third power, the susanoo.. So it was pretty obvious that before going to the summit he was already knows how to use the susanoo..

---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------


You are confusing terms here mate...
Zetsu is not stating an information there, he's stating an opinion...so nobody calls him a liar, people just say his opinion doesn't count, doesn't have much weight, that's all...opinions aren't facts you know, and Zetsu clearly says the word personally there, so

Well, i'm just replying to someone who stated that zetsu was lying for saying that naruto defeated the six paths on his own.. It wasn't an opinion of zetsu, it was a fact. Because zetsu seen how naruto defeated the six paths..

[Rikudou King]

Well, i'm just replying to RK. He stated that kishi has made it very clear that sasuke is much stronger than jiraiya. Simply because naruto was already surpassed jiraiya, so sasuke who suppose to be on par to naruto, then sasuke also was already surpassed jiraiya.

My bad,. i forgot the sage mode. And it was suppose to be a sage mode naruto is much stronger than sasuke. and i think it was stated in my first sentence.. Yeah, Kishi made it clear by having Sasuke fight with someone comparable to Rikudou Naruto. Not to mention the whole "reading each other mind" thing, where Naruto pretty much states that they're even enough to kill each other in battle.


Zetsu seen the fight between itachi and sasuke. He seen itachi's susanoo. And hell no.. How could sasuke going to the kage summit without being prepared. And it's pretty abvious that sasuke was already practicing his MS power on how to use them before going into the battle.. Whats more if he seen how powerful it is by looking it on itachi.. And do you really think that it has been the first time for sasuke to used his susanoo at the summit.? i don't think so..

How would he know to activate the riblets susanoo to counter raikage's attack.? is that an accident or coincedence or he activate it by luck.?

He knows how to activate the susanoo simply because he knows how to use it. as simple as that..


Sasuke stated that those who has a double mangekyu sharingan can activate the third power, the susanoo.. So it was pretty obvious that before going to the summit he was already knows how to use the susanoo.. Just because Zetsu saw Itachi's Susanoo doesn't mean that he knew that Sasuke would have Susanoo too. Madara clear stated that even with MS, one that could activate Susanoo was a rarity. They couldn't have know what Sasuke's third MS was until he actually activated it.

Do we need to mention Amaterasu? Sasuke went into battle against Kirabi without knowing or practicing with Amaterasu. He didn't even awaken it until well into the battle, by sheer luck. So the idea that Sasuke didn't activate Susanoo until he fought Ee is perfectly reasonable, especially since the rest of Team Taka didn't know of it. Sasuke mentioning the third power of the MS simply meant that he went to the summit for the purpose of drawing whatever his final MS was out.

[Bokkle]

There needs to be a Naruto vs Sasuke Tournament post, then we'll get some real votes. Who else agrees?:plot