Question about the Rinnegan

[NarutoThe6th]

Well,Tobi just told us,that the two sons of the sage had unique abilities.

One possesed an unique eye-technique -> Sharingan
And the other possed an unique-body -> Sage

This two sons were the Senyu and the Uchiha.

And the Uchiha Clan is known for the possession of the "Sharingan"

But where in Hell does the Rinnegan come from ?

If im not wrong somewhere in the manga someone from the leaf mentioned that it was just an mutation.

How how could Nagato get this eyes... Isnt there the possibility that one of his parents was a Senyu and the other an Uchiha ?

And uniting this both Clans can only lead to this rinnegan :S
Somewhere in his genes there must be the key for his rinnegan,but i can explain it -.-

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------

so the key to end the hatred of the cursed Ninjaworld must be the unity of the two clans or am i wrong ?

[Kaiten]

Yes, that seems to be what Kishi is implying. When Sasuke and Naruto make up and curbstomp Madara together it will symbolize a new age of peace, love, flowers, and ponies ruling the shinobi world :)

And the Rinnegan was the eyes the sage of six paths had. The sharingan is the eyes his son had. The rinnegan is a recessive gene carried by anyone descended from the Sage. Nagato was an Uzumaki, a cadet branch of the Senju clan and a direct descendant of the Sage. Nagato and Naruto are actually from the same clan, even if they are not close relatives. It was not explained why the Uchiha branch inherited the sharingan, a lesser ocular jutsu, rather than the rinnegan.

[NarutoThe6th]

Naruto is after all the reincarnation of the sage of the six path and not nagato:D

[Kaiten]

Naruto is not the resurrection of the sage. He inherited the senju will of fire. The will of fire alone is not enough to make someone the second coming of the sage. Naruto did not inherit the rinnegan, jyuubi, and all six elemental ninjutsu. At best Naruto is the philosophical successor to the sage.

[3c]

1. But where in Hell does the Rinnegan come from ?

2. How could Nagato get this eyes... Isnt there the possibility that one of his parents was a Senyu and the other an Uchiha ?

3. And uniting this both Clans can only lead to this rinnegan
Somewhere in his genes there must be the key for his rinnegan,but i can't explain it

Kaiten explained most of the details. But I'm going to elaborate.

1. The Rinnegan comes from the combination of the Sage's Body and Eyes (http://www.mangareader.net/93-31099-12/naruto/chapter-462.html). Senju and Uchiha. However I doubt you could just make a random Senju with weak genes and random Uchiha have a kid together and suddenly the kid has a Rinnegan. The Rinnegan would probably only be born in a kid with the epitome of both factors, Body and Eyes.

2. No, Nagato was only an Uzumaki, a "brother clan" of the Senju. According to my theory above, he wouldn't be born with the Rinnegan or even be able to activate it by chance without having both Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha parents. However according to Madara this is explained by him giving Nagato the Rinnegan (http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-4/naruto/chapter-509.html).

3. You basically answered 1. and 2. here.

[Quantized]

Kaiten explained most of the details. But I'm going to elaborate.

1. The Rinnegan comes from the combination of the Sage's Body and Eyes (http://www.mangareader.net/93-31099-12/naruto/chapter-462.html). Senju and Uchiha. However I doubt you could just make a random Senju with weak genes and random Uchiha have a kid together and suddenly the kid has a Rinnegan. The Rinnegan would probably only be born in a kid with the epitome of both factors, Body and Eyes.

2. No, Nagato was only an Uzumaki, a "brother clan" of the Senju. According to my theory above, he wouldn't be born with the Rinnegan or even be able to activate it by chance without having both Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha parents. However according to Madara this is explained by him giving Nagato the Rinnegan (http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-4/naruto/chapter-509.html).

3. You basically answered 1. and 2. here.

I agree that logically you'd want to mix all 2-3 clans to even have a remote chance of redeveloping the bloodline Rinnegan.

But also in real life (not manga though), I believe you can inherit traits from ancestors over 1.000 years ago, that did not appear in-between, but it's extremely unlikely.
It's also why we don't look exactly like a mix between our mothers and fathers, but has some traits from our ancestors further down of the line as well, the further down, the more unlikely.

Now as far how this is applied in the manga I don't know, just throwing the possibility if anyone want to dig into it and do some research.

[Kaiten]

2. No, Nagato was only an Uzumaki, a "brother clan" of the Senju. According to my theory above, he wouldn't be born with the Rinnegan or even be able to activate it by chance without having both Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha parents. However according to Madara this is explained by him giving Nagato the Rinnegan (http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-4/naruto/chapter-509.html).

The translation hisshou used was "distant blood relatives" (http://www.mangareader.net/93-54942-3/naruto/chapter-500.html). That phrase still leaves a lot of room for interpretation but implies a common line of descent. Considering the Uzumaki clans specialty is a sealing jutsu for bijuu, a technique originating with the Sage of Six Paths, it would make sense that the Uzumaki are a junior branch that split from the Senju clan sometime before the creation of Konoha. That would mean they share blood with the Sage and could carry the gene for the rinnegan. Madara's claim to giving Nagato the rinnegan should be taken with a grain of sugar. This was the same man who claimed that he did not mastermind the kyuubi's attack on the leaf, that it was a natural disaster. Madara seems to be a compulsive liar who wanted to stake a claim to Nagato's eyes.

[Quantized]

The translation hisshou used was "distant blood relatives" (http://www.mangareader.net/93-54942-3/naruto/chapter-500.html). That phrase still leaves a lot of room for interpretation but implies a common line of descent. Considering the Uzumaki clans specialty is a sealing jutsu for bijuu, a technique originating with the Sage of Six Paths, it would make sense that the Uzumaki are a junior branch that split from the Senju clan sometime before the creation of Konoha. That would mean they share blood with the Sage and could carry the gene for the rinnegan. Madara's claim to giving Nagato the rinnegan should be taken with a grain of sugar. This was the same man who claimed that he did not mastermind the kyuubi's attack on the leaf, that it was a natural disaster. Madara seems to be a compulsive liar who wanted to stake a claim to Nagato's eyes.

True, Madara can't be trusted in what he says.. Maybe he merely taught Nagato how to use Rinnegan..? Strikes me that he's arrogant enough to say he owns Nagato from that..
Can't imagine Madara having anything to do with Nagato's parents being together, they seemed like a happy family if not in a tragic war. It really is a mystery..

It's a good idea that Uzumaki split from Senju in order to keep certain qualities of the great sage pure, never really thought about that, that way.
They do seem like a brother/sister clan relationship, so it's not like they seemed to have their differences, it almost seemed like they were the same clan, and yet, not.

What strikes me as odd though, is how they all disappeared...


Uchiha - Big in numbers, likely because they tried to preserve the Uchiha bloodline.
Senju - Low in numbers, did they promote the idea to marry who you want to..? and disappeared among the population...?
Uzumaki - medium/big in numbers, protected bloodline like Uchiha did, but got destroyed in war..?


What I can't add up is how Senju and Uchiha seemingly are equal when Konoha is created.
I don't remember where I read this, but seemingly the Uchiha and Senju had their current differences when 2 factions tend to hire them to fight against each others, because Senju and Uchiha were the 2 strongest clans around.

So, seemingly, there were a lot more Senju at the time Konoha was created... or were they slaughtered... What happen to them.. where are they now..?

I can see why Rinnegan is truly rare if the population of Senju always have been low in population though, and it seems to have even lower chance to appear in the Uzumaki clan considering preserving bloodline, unless a lot more Senju were married into the Uzumaki clan..?

If an Uzumaki/Senju have the sages body, and have a chance to get Rinnegan, then what about Uchiha...?

Can an Uchiha be born with the the sages body and achieve Rinnegan instead of sharingan, the same way that a Senju/Uzumaki can develop Rinnegan...?

Argh! If only Madara was not such a liar! He seems to lie with half truth though, like he did against Sasuke :darn

[hyper_megaman]

food for thought

why is the uzumaki clan symbol the sharingan ancestor (continuous spiral)?

[Quantized]

food for thought

why is the uzumaki clan symbol the sharingan ancestor (continuous spiral)?

When reading your post I went on the Naruto wiki looking for the symbols, but instead I stumbled over this interesting detail by accident,


According to the third Naruto databook, the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox is the only one who knows the truth about the Uchiha clan and about Naruto. However, it appears that it has no intention of telling what it knows.

Naruto is currently overusing his chakra in the war, eventually, he'll probably be forced to talk with the kyuubi again, and possibly, make an alliance with it.

Maybe, just maybe, if it tells Naruto and us some more details, possibly, we'd also learn more about Senju and Uchiha, thereby, possibly also more about Rinnegan through it.
What information Madara did not share, or even lied about, the Kyuubi can confirm it. I doubt the kyuubi wants to "lie", it seems to be a creature of honour, even if it is filled with hatred.

Possible answers in sight!! :tem



But about the ancestor symbols, you're right, it seems like they're similar and Senju is on a whole other path in symbol design.. It could indeed lead on to some clues I guess.
Senju ancestor symbol: None found.
Senju clan symbol: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Senju

Uchiha ancestor symbol: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Uchiha_Clan_Ancestor
Uchiha clan symbol: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Uchiha_Clan

Uzumaki country symbol: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Uzushiogakure
Uzumaki clan symbol: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Uzumaki_Clan
Same Uzumaki symbol though.

[hyper_megaman]

yea that isn't the uchiha ancestor symbol, that's his power

why is the uzumaki clan sy mbol so similar to the sharingan anecstor eyes, and why is their clan the only one to have a rinnegan appear and not the senju?

[Suzaku]

The Uzumaki clan lived in the Land of Whirlpools, which is why their symbol is a spiral. When the country still existed, that was on their forehead protectors, too.

The Uchiha clan symbol is an uchiwa, which is a type of paper fan used to fan flames; it relates to their proficiency with Fire Release techniques.


The Rinnegan is the doujutsu that the Sage of Six Paths was born with. He had two sons, one inherited his body, the other inherited his eyes. These two bloodlines became the Senju and Uchiha clans, and by extension the Uzumaki clan and possibly the Hyuuga clan.

Essentially, the "body" and "eye" symbolize "yin" and "yang", which you can take further and draw out "physical" and "mental", or "taijutsu" and "genjutsu".

The Sage of the Six Paths had complete control over reality and illusion, and could bring imaginary things to life or turn living things into illusions.

The Senju and Uchiha are his genetic legacy, and the two bloodlines eventually developed the "Will of Fire" and "Curse of Hatred" which is at the core of the feud between the two clans, starting with the Sage of Six Paths favoring one son over the other.

He also left behind the art and philosphy of ninjutsu, a host of powerful ninja weapons, and the nine bijuu.


Anyway, as Madara explains it, the only way to obtain the Rinnegan is by uniting the two bloodlines of the Sage of the Six Paths: the Senju and Uchiha. As the Uzumaki clan is related by blood to the Senju, they carry those genes as well.

My personal theory is that Nagato's parents were an Uzumaki and an Uchiha (they look the part) and that Madara is speaking figuratively about "giving" Nagato the Rinnegan, the same way he speaks figuratively about being the "founder" of Akatsuki because he gave Yahiko the idea. He always overstates his own role and makes himself out to be more important.

[shafagh]

True, Madara can't be trusted in what he says

I think he didn't tell lie to himself and a dying women ... Tobi obtained rinnegan in blink of an eye and he was able to use it ( compare it to Sasuke's MS and his EMS ) ...



Uchiha - Big in numbers, likely because they tried to preserve the Uchiha bloodline.
Senju - Low in numbers, did they promote the idea to marry who you want to..? and disappeared among the population...?
Uzumaki - medium/big in numbers, protected bloodline like Uchiha did, but got destroyed in war..?


I think you are wrong ... it seems most of clans in konoha are senjo ....

[Quantized]

I think he didn't tell lie to himself and a dying women ... Tobi obtained rinnegan in blink of an eye and he was able to use it ( compare it to Sasuke's MS and his EMS ) ...


I think you are wrong ... it seems most of clans in konoha are senjo ....

This is more towards the discussion with Naruto right before the Kage summit where Sasuke attacked, and Madara passed by to "talk", what motives would there be other than being arrogant and helping his future plans along..?

Also we don't know how powerful Rinnegan is yet, for all we know, the eye view from summons and corpses could be the very most basic ability in Rinnegan, heck, what if Nagato only showed Rinnegan abilities that Madara taught him..? In other words, Madara claiming he gave Nagato rinnegan, could be that he teached him.

When Nagato faught aginst Danzou and Hanzou, it really didn't look like he knew what he was doing, randomly using Rinnegan abilities that had consequences etc.. Madara might have helped him master it, atleast the basic abilities.

[Rosebunse]

I just assumed that the old Sage was a either a mutant or some kind of demi-god, like, a literal demi-god, where either his mother or father was a god-god. That's the only way to really explain most of this. As for the Sharigan, can't it just be explained as a bastard rinnegan?

[Quantized]

I just assumed that the old Sage was a either a mutant or some kind of demi-god, like, a literal demi-god, where either his mother or father was a god-god. That's the only way to really explain most of this. As for the Sharigan, can't it just be explained as a bastard rinnegan?

That's actually the original explanation to Sharingan :p That it's origin came from a demon in a human form having a child with a Hyuuga, and sharingan was born! As crazy as it sounds :p

It seems Kishi goes with 3 patterns revealing the eye powers in Naruto.

Byakugan - Seemingly we know a lot of it's secrets already from the beginning of Naruto, being the weakest it might not hold too many secrets.

Sharingan - Slowly revealed potential throughout the story, it certainly has been a ride from it's original pure genjutsu, copy and speed tracker abilities.

Rinnegan - Very late introduction, a lot of it's secrets has seemingly been discovered. Overall it's still having the same number of techiques as a EMS user, so it's possible we're still in for a secret or two behind Rinnegan. Unless a very lucky born Uchiha with unique sharingan powers could overpower a Rinnegan user when it came down to compare eye techniques, assuming the ninjas are equally skilled and lucky in that battle.
This is assuming that Rinnegan is normally way over the league than Sharingan when used correct, the same way Sharingan is way over the league of Byakugan when used correct.

Seemingly, we knew all to major parts of Byakugan from the beginning of part one, then we learned all about the Sharingan through part 2, and now when Naruto has grasped powers (Sage mode and Kyuubi) we start to learn about Rinnegan.

I don't think it's over yet, Rinnegan still holds secrets.. :o

[insid3rkill3r]

Well,Tobi just told us,that the two sons of the sage had unique abilities.

One possesed an unique eye-technique -> Sharingan
And the other possed an unique-body -> Sage

This two sons were the Senyu and the Uchiha.

And the Uchiha Clan is known for the possession of the "Sharingan"

But where in Hell does the Rinnegan come from ?

If im not wrong somewhere in the manga someone from the leaf mentioned that it was just an mutation.

How how could Nagato get this eyes... Isnt there the possibility that one of his parents was a Senyu and the other an Uchiha ?

And uniting this both Clans can only lead to this rinnegan :S
Somewhere in his genes there must be the key for his rinnegan,but i can explain it -.-




Kakashi said it was a mutation regarding the fact that 'Rikudou' likely wasnt wielding it and that it was nothing but a myth but according to Madara, Rikudou really existed and indeed was wielding the Rinnegan.

Given Rikudou was the first and only wielded until Nagato, we could say the Rinnegan has no origin itself, and it really was a mutation and a 'random' god given tool that was born within Rikudou himself. But as far as Nagato's rinnegan goes, it's not a mutation but rather is a 'kekkai gankai' as being part of the Uzumaki linegage and Sensu's descendant, Nagato had the 'slight' chance to awake what was once part of the one who gave birth to his lineage. Rikudou's rinnegan likely is a mutation that came out of no where.


One thing we need to not mix together is that the Rinnegan isnt a result of the union of the Senju and Uchiha blood, it's simply a doujutsu and that is all. Izanagi so far is the only thing that results from the Senju and Uchiha blood union.



so the key to end the hatred of the cursed Ninjaworld must be the unity of the two clans or am i wrong ?


That is pretty much what Madara said indeed

The two brothers were entrusted in finding an answer on how to break the curse of hatred so that they could reach peace.

I don't think it had anything to do with the rinnegan, it simply symbolized imo. that both Sasuke and Naruto would be in the end needed to work together to break the curse of hatred which sympolizes the one we know as Tobi/Madara today. And it would make more than enough sense as everything points towards that direction and that Madara was described as being 'The darkness' in the manga.



Rinnegan = Doujutsu that doesnt need Senju / Uchiha union, it only requires you to be part of either of the clan to have a chance to awake (likely the case)

Izanagi = requires both the Uchiha blood and Senju blood and the Sharingan (for imcomplete version) or Rinnegan (for complete version) to be used.









As for the 'demon' having a Hyuuga as a wife which resulted in the Uchiha's birth that was a lie. Kishi never showed us such thing.

In fact, there are three scenarios now.

-That the Hyuuga was the origin of the Sharingan (that was in part 1 and was only a speculation) = not the case anymore

That Rikudou is the origin of the Sharingan

And that the Juubi's eye is the origin of the Sharingan

The first is likely not true anymore from what we've seen.



And as for the other two, the 'basic' Sharingan seems to be purely coming down from the Juubi's eyes.

The reason for this is that Madara himself said that he wanted to use the Juubi's power to empower his eye to the point it would look like the Juubi's and that with that power, he could be able to cast the ultimate genjutsu.

So going from this, if the 'ultimate genjutsu' has the look of the Juubi's eye as seen on the moon when he talks about this, it's safe to say that the Juubi's eye power is oriented towards genjutsu, at the very least partially.

And given we have not seen a single genjutsu immunity of power coming from the rinnegan this seems to be confirming it. The Rinnegan is a eye solely oriented towards ninjutsu so far, while the Sharingan has genjutsu prowess no matter how good you are at it, it comes with it.

The mangekyo is an other story, the fact that now, ninjutsu is being 'implanted' in it's arsenal could point towards being the result of an uniion of the Juubi's eye and the Rinnegan.

Mixing both the power of genjutsu coming from the Juubi's eye and the Ninjutsu prowess that the Rinnegan posseses. This is only a theory of course, but the part about the 'basic' Sharingan to me seems pretty much confirmed given what we have seen/heard from Madara regarding the Juubi and his plan.

[shafagh]

I think RiKudo was Jubbi's son ... like that was in the mythology , but this time Tengo is Jubbi ...

[Anduren]

I've been thinking for a while now that its weird that at some point in time a random mutation caused a dojutsu (something that hasn't happened ever before that time in history) which gave birth to the most powerful and inhuman person (Sage of Six Paths) to come to be. Its even more weird that at the exact same time period, an insanely powerful chakra monster called the jyuubi came from nowhere to terrorize the world. It was also said that the Sage of Six Paths was born into a world torn by war which probably means that the Jyuubi incident started after he was born (the Jyuubi wasn't already rampaging around before he came around which is why the people were fighting each other instead).

This makes me think that the Sage of Six Paths' "mutation" is a result of Orochimaru style experiments driven by the war plagued world of the time and that the Rinnegan displayed by Nagato isn't the complete Rinnegan that the Sage of Six Paths originally had. At least this is my theory :). At some point, the sage, while preaching peace and traveling, in an attempt to purge himself of evil, gave birth to the manifestation of the evil inside him as the Jyuubi who separated from him taking with it the genjutsu aspect of his Rinnegan eyes. This would mean that once it has left him, the Rinnegan (as Nagato had it) is ninjutsu oriented and lacking the genjutsu abilities it originally had. So, the evil that left him as the Jyuubi took with it the genjutsu aspect of the eyes along with his curse of hatred. It was also said that Nagato said his abilities paled in comparison to the original Sage of Six Paths (I guess there's lots of other ways to explain this though).

Truely, desire for power can lead to evil so there's lots of angles that can be taken in how this story evolves as far as what actually happened. But I think the older brother's belief in peace through power (and also inherited his chakra and eyes) was already a path the sage had taken before and is why he chose the younger brother to succeed him.... leading to the will of fire vs. curse of hatred to continue even after his death.