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View Full Version : Discussion The Metagame of the Prince of Tennis: Konomi-dundancy



Brandnewkid
September 13, 2011, 06:10 PM
Am I the only one that noticed that as the story went on Konomi began to recycle his surreal concepts?

For instance, Ryoma always had the ability to copy other moves just by seeing them once, compliments of Konomi's Marty-Sue, but come the introduction of the State of Self-Actualization, was it me or did everyone treated it like it was some new thing? I have more to say about the State of Self-Actualization later, but for now I just want to focus on some other redundant things seen in PoT.

One of the most infamous moves guilty of Konomi-dundancy, the Hadokyu, or Wave Surge. Initially it was used by Tetsu Ishida as a single-handed heavy groundstroke. Then, Kawamura utilized it and created his own variations, such as the Two-Armed Wave Surge, the Wave Surge Dash and the Jumping Wave Surge. But, then we meet Gin Ishida, the Wave Surge's founder, who has 108 forms of the Wave Surge technique. The kicker? They're all the same, except they have different amounts of power. Okay, am I the only one that finds that boring? At least Kawamura came up with more interesting variations; Gin's 107 other Wave Surge blows are basically ways of saying "You aren't worth my strongest technique."

And then we meet other power players in NPoT and, lo and behold, Danji, Kawamura and Kabaji's doubles opponent, has power that surpasses both of them! But the thing is, isn't nearly every power shot a Wave Surge? What's the point in giving Danji a technique like "Danji Summer" or "Danji Springtime" when they're more or less the same thing, just more power? I'm just saying, all power shots sans Kawamura's obvious variations are basically the same, just different [unknown] degrees of power put into them. I mean, the only thing that can really diversify the power players and their shots are how strong they are.

Let me see if I can give another example. Compare Kippei Tachibana's Abare Dama / Wild Ball to Yoshiro Akazawa's (Don't remember him? He's St. Rudolph's captain, and another victim of potential shafted away by the rest of the cast) Magic. Isn't it more or less the same thing; making multiple balls appear? If anything, Akazawa's technique is just more theoretically possible. Need I mention Sengoku's Tiger Canon and Momoshiro's Dunk Smash? Love how the Smiling Hitman's Zapper~/Bakyu~un is basically Yagyu the Gentleman's Laser Beam turned up to the high school level. Oh, and Renji, the chances of your Cicada being just like Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot is 99.18% ... is what I was going to say. I can go along with the similarities, but I wish the characters would stop marveling at these techniques as if a pre-existing character hasn't done similar or the same exact things before; they can at least make the connection.

Another runner-up for most annoying reoccurrence and then treated like a brand new slice of bread is the aforementioned ability to copy techniques. Like I said earlier, this was a part of Ryoma's gimmick; he could play Megaman 8 with all the tricks and trades he had encountered like it was nothing. Then cue Kabaji, who could do the exact same thing. Then came a guy called Nio, who was an interesting case. At first, he didn't just copy other players; he actually dressed up as them. But now, Konomi, has him appear to clone other players through artistic representation. No more player-swindling; Nio is another Kabaji. So what the heck?

I'll give it to Konomi, though. There are times when he gives these moves distinctions. For instance, ex-Seigaku captain Yamato's Gen'u Yume Utsutsu / Lucid-Dreaming Phantasm is basically Anti-Data Tennis, and Fuji's Vanishing Serve is a serve unlike Chitose Senri's groundstroke, Spirited Away (though this can be hit as a serve in addition to a groundstroke).

And what really gets to me, what really grinds my gears, is how Ryoma and Fuji are treated as these epic tennis gods because they're prodigies. Okay, lets kick the ballistics here, damn near half the cast are prodigies. Lets go through the list of characters that were said to be tennis prodigies:

1. Ryoma Echizen
2. Shusuke Fuji
3. Jin Akutsu (He was even said to be a "once-per-decade" kind of player!)
4. Jiro Akutagawa
5. Yushi Oshitari
6. Hikaru Zaizen


Not to mention characters who are said to have high IQs ala Koharu and Inui and other haxxorz like Yukimura and Tezuka. There's really no point in identifying characters like say, Fuji, as a genius when the cast has a shit-load of "scary guys." Really, if you're not a genius that can evolve in this series then you're really not important.

And then I could go on back to the techniques themselves and not about how redundant but how surreal they are (like the Danji Summer sending both doubles opponents flying at once, or a sky smash or whatever that "Vanish" thing is that Kintaro is currently up against), but that's a battle that won't end.

Atobe the king
September 13, 2011, 11:59 PM
I pretty much agree with most of the points, but had konomi kept the manga a simple unrealistic take on tennis and not what it is now (i'm seeing so much blood in the recent chapters i forgot it was tennis these guys were playing), only so far you can go with silly techniques before you have to start breaking rules. Fuji's whole thing was that no one knew his full potential since he wasn't pushed until Kanto. Ryoma's whole thing is that he's "young".

As for copying, iirc ryoma didn't really do it mid match right? He would copy something he had seen before. Kabaji can only copy whats in front of him but his copying is has met some walls , and Nio's aren't limited to who he's playing but they aren't perfect. While muga is just a bunch of random moves from people you didn't even have to play and cant control what comes next. Similar concepts, executed pretty differently.

Agree with everything else though

Brandnewkid
September 14, 2011, 01:03 AM
(i'm seeing so much blood in the recent chapters i forgot it was tennis these guys were playing),

Which brings me to another point in the art of Konomi-dundancy which I'd forgot to mention: bloody tennis matches.

First we had Klauza as our favorite red-painter in tennis. The guy had so much power that he really dyed Akaya in blood. Then Devil Akaya, who just goes nuts. Then there are power players like Gin, Takashi, and Danji who can send their opponents bleeding into the sky. Now there's Hakamada Izou, Kintaro's high-school opponent and a guy who's obviously so bad-ass that his acts of making his opponents bleed actually compels Konomi to call it Blood-stained Tennis.

... What? We've seen it before; Harada's not special when it comes to obviously breaking the rules and making the game a blood-bath.

Kaoz
September 14, 2011, 03:25 AM
Hmm you altered it a bit from when you posted in on MF, it looks better now...

I still have to disagree with you on the copy section. I already went over it before, so I won't repeat myself, but it's basically as Atobe said, same concept, different execution.
It'd kinda be like saying that Twist Serve and Kohou are too similar because they're both serves.

That being said, reusing moves isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time, with over 100 characters, giving each of them completly unqiue stuff is probably not doable.
There are also instances where it makes sense for two characters to use similar techniques, examples include Gin and Tetsu or Yanagi and Inui.

I more or less agree with the rest.

Brandnewkid
September 14, 2011, 02:07 PM
H
It'd kinda be like saying that Twist Serve and Kohou are too similar because they're both serves.

No, that analogy does not work. The Twist Serve isn't a power shot like the Kohou.



That being said, reusing moves isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time, with over 100 characters, giving each of them completly unqiue stuff is probably not doable.

I may agree with you on this, my beef is with how they all treat every "new" move as totally amazing in-universe.



There are also instances where it makes sense for two characters to use similar techniques, examples include Gin and Tetsu or Yanagi and Inui.

I more or less agree with the rest.

True. But, when you have things like Renji's Cicada and Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot being the same thing is just ... weird.

Airgrimes
September 14, 2011, 02:42 PM
Its Hakamada* Izou who is facing Tooyama Kintaro btw. Not Harada.
But I agree with your post.

But the Muga issue is bearable.
Coz luckily the only players who can access it are Echizen, Tezuka, Sanada, Chitose, Yukimura, Kevin Smith(Anime) and... thats it for now.

But to be fair Konomi, he has added some variation to the similar play styles of the characters.

Yanagi and Inui are.... well yeah the same.

Kawamura & Ishida. G - Kawamura has takent he Hadoukyuu into different forms like you said, so Im cool with that. And yeah, thankfully Konomi puts it in that the other characters also think he is boring :D

The Muga no Kyouchi guys - Only Echizen, Tezuka and Chitose can open the doors to it. So its not too bad.

Yagyuu & Taira - Yeah, Im a lil annoyed too. It even had the SFX for Laserbeam. And like you said at High School level since it breaks through strings. But surely Konomi will hand him something else, since that technique cant be the reason why he is No.18 in Japan.
Coz I cant see how that shot alone could defeat Yamato.

Kabaji - I dont enjoy his matches. But we need him in the series to show the WIDE Variety of play styles that Konomi has been able to think up.

Niou - You have to admit, Synchronizing with the opponent to get their next moves is freaking awesome.

Date - LOL Dont even get me started on Danji Summer & Spring. Whats next Autumn or Winter!!?? I totally agree. But it cant be helped since he is No. 12. So if Konomi wanted him to be a Power Play user he had to be insane powerful since he had to PROVE what makes him better than Akiba, Taira, Hakamada, Hara etc.

Geniuses -
>Fuji. Konomi will hand him a power-up. He is the 2nd most popular character in the series as of the last poll.
>Zaizen. To be honest, that whole ''Ill end this in 17 rallies'' moment during Tezuka VS Chitose has made me look down on him and he has done NOTHING to change my mind.

He even reveals he initially declined his U-17 invite. So he's not gonna have that cool epic moment of determination for him to be handed a power-up. He is a big disappointment.
Although it seems he is the next Captain of Shitenhoji.

>Jirou. His Magic Volley technique is awesome. His intro was really cool. The fact he took out Fuji Yuuta in under 15mins. But after being slapped by Fuji, we have yet to see him have a Singles match :(
He needs a Singles Match. He was a popular character in the polls so im doubting he'll get left behind in Shin PoT.

>Oshitari. Y. He was introduced as near Fuji level. Took 6 straight games from Momoshiro and practically broke him down. Although his hand got numbed at the end.
He slapped Mukahi 7-0 in the tie-break which has underlined his power so I think Konomi has still kept him as a genius.

>Akutsu. Oni has told him to fill that darkness in his heart. He was really badass so I dont think Konomi will forgot that he is a ''once in a decade talent''. He can hit 5 balls at once right?
Akutsu and Kite have appeared in a Pair Puri, so I reckon Akutsu still has more chances to prove his Genius in the upcoming chpters considering there is an anime and we aint even seen the Top 10 in action yet.

So its too early to write off all the geniuses as of yet.

The questions are guys like Kite, Hirakoba, Sengoku, Ibu and Kamio.
Guys that began cool, but became sucky as the story progressed.

Kaoz
September 14, 2011, 02:51 PM
No, that analogy does not work. The Twist Serve isn't a power shot like the Kohou.

While it's true that the effect of the moves differs, in the end they are both serves.

The same holds true for the Echizen, Kabaji and Niou though, they all copy stuff but the conditions and effects are different.

That seems like a perfectly viable analogy to me.


I may agree with you on this, my beef is with how they all treat every "new" move as totally amazing in-universe.

Hmm that can be quite unnecessary at times I guess.


True. But, when you have things like Renji's Cicada and Tezuka's Zero-Degrees Drop Shot being the same thing is just ... weird.

But ZSD rolls backwards, whereas Cicada rolls forwards, they are totally different

That's true, Cicada wasn't really needed. Yet... I wouldn't exactly say it's weird. Maybe that's just me but as Renji collects data on various players, I could imagine that when he sees a move that fits into his playstyle he tries to either copy it or use an altered version, and ZSD is definately displayed as one of the best moves.

In Cicada's case, for me it's more a "This didn't really amount to anything, rather than "It doesn't make sense for him to have it".

Brandnewkid
September 14, 2011, 03:47 PM
While it's true that the effect of the moves differs, in the end they are both serves.

The same holds true for the Echizen, Kabaji and Niou though, they all copy stuff but the conditions and effects are different.

That seems like a perfectly viable analogy to me.

What the- that's not a perfectly viable analogy at all. Yes, they're generally serves but with entirely different purposes. The Twist Serve is usually an end-game move for Ryoma, while the Kohou is Sengoku's mid-game technique that he unleashes whenever his Feng Shui charms just ain't working for him. Saying that the two are the same because they're serves is like saying Ryoma and Sengoku are the same people because they're human. You're thinking too generally, there.

Airgrimes
September 14, 2011, 03:59 PM
Twist Serve and Kohou are treated differently.
Twist Serve is a serve well used by pros.

Kohou is a freaking huge leap.

Konomi has really put in a nice bit of variation there.

Kick Serve is far more closely linked to Twist Serve than Kohou.


Echizen and Niou and Kabaji have the same copy style?
They dont really.

Konomi was careful with his variations. I think what he's done their isnt too bad.

Niou - Copies a players play style.

Echizen - Copies various moves he has seen before.

Kabaji - Copies simply like a mirror.

They are each quite different. Nice variation.

Atobe the king
September 14, 2011, 04:10 PM
Twist serve was the shit because a a middle schooler hitting a kicker with that much kick was amazing, A twist serve and a kick serve are the same thing. But as it got more and more unrealistic it wasn't so impressive...by the end of the series he started matches with it. And i know i'm likely nitpicking but...Cicada looks like a drop volley rather than a drop shot. Assuming it is, drop volley has to be done in a volley position...you can do a dropper as far as behind the baseline if you've got good enough touch. http://www.mangareader.net/422-27253-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-356.html

Airgrimes
September 14, 2011, 04:33 PM
Yeah that sounds right.

Kaoz
September 14, 2011, 05:29 PM
What the- that's not a perfectly viable analogy at all. Yes, they're generally serves but with entirely different purposes. The Twist Serve is usually an end-game move for Ryoma, while the Kohou is Sengoku's mid-game technique that he unleashes whenever his Feng Shui charms just ain't working for him. Saying that the two are the same because they're serves is like saying Ryoma and Sengoku are the same people because they're human. You're thinking too generally, there.

My statement:
"Twist Serve and Kohou are both serves, they are too similar."

Your rebuttal:
"No they aren't, their effects are different."

Your statement about copies:
"Echizen, Kabaji and Niou all copy stuff, they are too similar."

My rebuttal:
"No they aren't, their techniques have different effects."

See what I'm getting at? Of course Twist Serve and Kohou are nowhere near the same thing, my point is that Muga, Illusion and Simple-Mindedness aren't the same or anywhere close to it either.

Brandnewkid
September 14, 2011, 06:09 PM
Your statement about copies:
"Echizen, Kabaji and Niou all copy stuff, they are too similar."

My rebuttal:
"No they aren't, their techniques have different effects."

See what I'm getting at? Of course Twist Serve and Kohou are nowhere near the same thing, my point is that Muga, Illusion and Simple-Mindedness aren't the same or anywhere close to it either.

This is where you're wrong. I'm not saying they, the players, are all similar because they can play copycat- I'm saying that they all share the three different talents which basically amounts to the same thing. Konomi could've just given Muga to Kabaji and Niou and called it a day, but he basically wrapped the same gift three times with different wrappers.

Hope that makes sense.

Kaoz
September 15, 2011, 04:29 AM
This is where you're wrong. I'm not saying they, the players, are all similar because they can play copycat- I'm saying that they all share the three different talents which basically amounts to the same thing. Konomi could've just given Muga to Kabaji and Niou and called it a day, but he basically wrapped the same gift three times with different wrappers.

Hope that makes sense.

My apologies for my choice of words.

And no, it doesn't make sense because the three abilities used to copy are distinctly different from each other.

Muga
The user's base abilities are increased and what is copied is random, based on past experiences. In return it eventually takes a lot of stamina to keep up.

Simple Mindedness
Copies are restricted to the abilities used by the opponent. No side effects (unless you want to include that some techniques take longer to copy than others).

Illusion
The only restriction is the difficulty of the abilities Niou wants to copy. However, certain preperations have to be made. Furthermore, it's broken when the opponent overcomes the mental barrier.

Long story short, giving Niou and Kabaji Muga instead of their own abilities would change things quite a bit.

Airgrimes
September 15, 2011, 02:09 PM
Niou, Kabaji and Echizen's abilities are very different in their own right and the Author has purposely and carefully shown this.

Kabaji is the lowest of them all.
He is effectively a mirror.
But Tezuka showed that experience is as important as skill to a player.

Echizen uses Muga which has been explained my both me and Chaosmaster before, its VERY different to Kabaji's style.

Niou completely impersonates a persons playstyle. So instead of copying techniques seen before like Muga, or copying whats infront of you like Kabaji, it takes on all the attributes of the player being impersonated.

They are all very different.

Sai_the_Shaman
September 15, 2011, 02:54 PM
Twist serve was the shit because a a middle schooler hitting a kicker with that much kick was amazing, A twist serve and a kick serve are the same thing.[/url]

Slight correction. Twist kicks with a side spin added to make it twist upwards. Kick goes straight up and forward. At least that's how I've always differentiated them. They are used pretty interchangeably nowadays though....

Atobe the king
September 15, 2011, 09:45 PM
Yeah i am a bit unsure about that since commentators are using them interchangably or just calling them kickers.

Brandnewkid
September 15, 2011, 11:24 PM
I gotta hand it to him, though. Konomi-sensei seems like the type that would admit that he sorta recycles concepts. Like, in one of the Pair Puri's he admitted that Kenya and Gin were basically created to prove how lame Kamio and Ishida T. were; to illustrate how good Shitenhouji was. That explains why there's more than one speed player. But, what's the point in making a loser like Richard Sakata, who was also said to be an insanely fast bastard? All the guy does is lose and laugh. "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" all the way to the losers team.

Atobe the king
September 16, 2011, 12:47 PM
Richard seems to be a shoutout to Gael Monfils...i really don't know why he brought him back though.

Kaoz
September 16, 2011, 01:16 PM
I think Richard was thrown in to show that Sengoku had developed, and that's about it. I really have no idea why he got into the camp though... maybe Kadowaki and Richard made it because Konomi knew they weren't popular (or were they?) and that way not many people would feel bad when they got hit by Abare Dama and Hopping Ball.

Airgrimes
September 16, 2011, 05:03 PM
Yeah Richard is fodder.

The fault I found with Konomi though, was that in the U-17 Camp, he has Fuji Yuuta and Mizuki Hajime from a team who didnt even make the nationals, But no Tetsu Ishida.


Also what about the other teams from the Kansai Region and the Japanese players of Nagoya Seitoku who defeated Yamabuki and reached the Semi-finals only to be replaced by some foreigners.

I imagined at the start that Konomi would bring in guys not mentioned in the Nationals coz they were from other teams in other regions.
Coz there are SO many prefectures in Japan yet the Camp only has Tokyo, Kanagawa, Osaka, Hyougo, Chiba, Okinawa and where ever Richard is from.

I didnt think Konomi would use only characters that had been defeated by Seigaku before for the camp.
Disappointed a little.

Atobe the king
September 16, 2011, 08:38 PM
Yeah Richard is fodder.

The fault I found with Konomi though, was that in the U-17 Camp, he has Fuji Yuuta and Mizuki Hajime from a team who didnt even make the nationals, But no Tetsu Ishida.

Haven't read the opening chapters in a while but it's not long after nationals he could still have the wrist injury taka gave him, not best to aggravate that injury playing DBZ high schoolers.


Also what about the other teams from the Kansai Region and the Japanese players of Nagoya Seitoku who defeated Yamabuki and reached the Semi-finals only to be replaced by some foreigners.

yamabuki is pretty irrelevant, as were the original members of Nagoya team, they were replaced for a reason.


I imagined at the start that Konomi would bring in guys not mentioned in the Nationals coz they were from other teams in other regions.
Coz there are SO many prefectures in Japan yet the Camp only has Tokyo, Kanagawa, Osaka, Hyougo, Chiba, Okinawa and where ever Richard is from.

He's already got his hands full with the HS students you want him to make even MORE characters?


I didnt think Konomi would use only characters that had been defeated by Seigaku before for the camp.
Disappointed a little.

Richard and Krauser weren't beaten by Seigaku, Konomi included the majority of the relevant and not so relevant teams. Seigaku has beaten all of them.

Sai_the_Shaman
September 16, 2011, 11:55 PM
He said Tetsu. not Gin.

Gin was the older brother whom taka injured his wrist.

Tetsu was the younger brother in Fudo....

Also, Gin is in the camp....

Atobe the king
September 17, 2011, 12:10 AM
derp got them confused, and no tetsu...well thats probably because they have gin there lol.

Brandnewkid
September 17, 2011, 05:36 PM
Konomi admitted that Gin and Kenya were created as being basically better versions of Tetsu Ishida and Kamio. So, there's no real reason to have Tetsu and Kamio in the story anymore other than to cheer on Tachibana and Shinji seeing how Gin and Kenya effectively took their roles. I mean, all Tetsu had was the basic Hadokyu while Gin has 108 different forms of it, each one stronger than the next; and Kamio's rhythm doesn't mean jack-squat compared to a guy so fast he can run on water.

Airgrimes
September 18, 2011, 03:26 AM
Haven't read the opening chapters in a while but it's not long after nationals he could still have the wrist injury taka gave him, not best to aggravate that injury playing DBZ high schoolers.

I think Tetsu > Kadowaki so the camp confused me there a little.



yamabuki is pretty irrelevant, as were the original members of Nagoya team, they were replaced for a reason.

Yeah, but they didnt start off that way.
The Jimmies were meant to be an EXCELLENT Doubles pair and pushed the Golden pair to 7-5.
Sengoku was referred to as freakin Awesome, and Akutsu? Everyone knows he was Badass.

But now they totally suck? I think that goes under Konomi's dundancy or whatever this thread-owner calls it.




He's already got his hands full with the HS students you want him to make even MORE characters?

He doesnt have his hands full. He works less than he did with Part I. Monthly.
yeah he has the HS students who are 2nd Stringers who he has seemingly thrown away. We didnt even see ONE of those
''5 shuffle matches a day''.

He didnt even explain how St. Rudolph players were chosen when they didnt even reach Nationals.




Richard and Krauser weren't beaten by Seigaku, Konomi included the majority of the relevant and not so relevant teams. Seigaku has beaten all of them.

Yeah Besides THREE players Richard, Krauser and Kadowaki and lets face it. None of them are PARTICULARLY AMAZING.

Brandnewkid
September 18, 2011, 04:48 PM
Yeah, but they didnt start off that way.
The Jimmies were meant to be an EXCELLENT Doubles pair and pushed the Golden pair to 7-5.
Sengoku was referred to as freakin Awesome, and Akutsu? Everyone knows he was Badass.

It's called "bad writing." The thing with Konomi is that he doesn't know how to keep his power balances in check. The way Momoshiro vs. Sengoku played out made it seem that Momo was on Sengoku's National-player level, and we all know that wasn't true, at that point.

Atobe the king
September 19, 2011, 12:46 AM
Yeah, but they didnt start off that way.
The Jimmies were meant to be an EXCELLENT Doubles pair and pushed the Golden pair to 7-5.
Sengoku was referred to as freakin Awesome, and Akutsu? Everyone knows he was Badass.

But now they totally suck? I think that goes under Konomi's dundancy or whatever this thread-owner calls it.



I think you forgot this is a shounen manga. Remember when Vegeta was the greatest threat to earth? yeah me neither. That analogy is really stressing it but it should sum up what im getting at. They hype up a lot of people early on but they dont deliver in the end..ironically the whole cast is subjected to this. They hype up the middleschoolers and how "X can do this and he's just a middle schooler" then you see the HS players who im sure can commit mass murder with their tennis.


He doesnt have his hands full. He works less than he did with Part I. Monthly.


A manga with such a large ensemble cast will be hard to manage, period regardless of how much time he has.


Yeah Besides THREE players Richard, Krauser and Kadowaki and lets face it. None of them are PARTICULARLY AMAZING.

Well the may it to nationals which apparently makes them in some way important

Airgrimes
September 21, 2011, 12:20 PM
I think you forgot this is a shounen manga. Remember when Vegeta was the greatest threat to earth? yeah me neither. That analogy is really stressing it but it should sum up what im getting at. They hype up a lot of people early on but they dont deliver in the end..ironically the whole cast is subjected to this. They hype up the middleschoolers and how "X can do this and he's just a middle schooler" then you see the HS players who im sure can commit mass murder with their tennis.

I didnt forget. I mean straight off the bat of this new series, I mean if you think about it, not much has actually happened, SEVERAL Characters have been thrown away practically. Even the promising bunch.

Jirou, Zaizen, Yagyuu, Jimmies, Kite, Hirakoba, Kamio, Ibu, Sengoku, Amane(Davide)
These guys all had promise created by the author.

The whole ''just a Middle Schooler thing'' is fine. The whole High Schoolers causing bloodshed during Tennis isnt so cool though.



A manga with such a large ensemble cast will be hard to manage, period regardless of how much time he has.

On average he does far less than last time. This shoudnt be too hard for him. Im not saying its easy at all, I know none of us here could do it,
But before he was during 17pgs a week. He is now doing 12pgs a month.

You work it out. His job is now far easier.



Well the may it to nationals which apparently makes them in some way important

Not at all. Saeki Kojiro went to the nationals. He aint in the camp.
I cant see him losing to Kadowaki Satoru.

Cant see why Konomi only brought those guys from other schools in.
Kadowaki from Makinofuji, that school didnt even go far. They only reached 2nd Round.

Richard from St. Icaria only went 1st round.
Konomi could have used characters that came from teams that reached the Quarter-Finals. this year.

Also
In this camp he could have used High Schoolers who formerly went to schools in the series that just graduated and are in the year above Fuji, Tezuka, Atobe etc.

Like the Makinofuji High School 1st Years that took them to defeat Shishigaku who had the 2 wings of Kyushu, and reach last years Finals.

Like how Hara has been revealed, which makes perfect sense as to why Shitenhoji were just as strong last year.
Surely he could have revealed who this ''Dai Sempai'' was.
When Tachibana/Chitose VS Suzuki/Washio is taking place, Chitose says that he hasnt paired up with Tachibana since he faced ''Dai-Sempai''.
Who must have been the year above him in his school and helped them to the Semi's last year.

Like how it is stated that Seigaku went to the Nationals last year, and also, their Captain faced Atobe some time last year and lost.
And how Tezuka defeated their Captain last year.
shouldnt the old Hyotei and Seigaku captains be in the camp too?

Konomi could have used them as fodder instead of recycling guys like Kadowaki and Richard who were meant to be Comic-relief but arent even funny.

MochiRoll
September 21, 2011, 09:22 PM
On average he does far less than last time. This shoudnt be too hard for him. Im not saying its easy at all, I know none of us here could do it,
But before he was during 17pgs a week. He is now doing 12pgs a month.

You work it out. His job is now far easier.




This is not quite the case.

Back in 2009, Konomi said that:

Konomi: The serialization was weekly up until now, so now that I'm serialized in the monthly SQ, I thought that it was time. (laughs) But, I've gotten several jobs and am actually even busier than when I was serialized weekly. Between doing drafts, I have recording, radio, TV, and events, and then doing drafts again.

This is what I don't like about Konomi. He's not just a mangaka, he's a celebrity. Or at least living like one.

Brandnewkid
September 21, 2011, 09:40 PM
I just want to ask, what's with this excuse, "Well, this is a Shonen manga?"

Seriously? All Shonen are written the same? Go read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. Loads of characters doesn't mean bad writing when executed properly.

Atobe the king
September 22, 2011, 04:48 AM
No one is saying that, but they're damned similar and have many aspects they almost always share, that point should be obvious enough. In terms of revolutionizing the genre PoT is the wrong place to look for that.

Brandnewkid
September 22, 2011, 01:53 PM
No one is saying that, but they're damned similar and have many aspects they almost always share, that point should be obvious enough. In terms of revolutionizing the genre PoT is the wrong place to look for that.

No. I'm pretty sure that you guys are using "It's Shonen" to excuse bad writing, which is just totally wrong. Konomi's skills as a writer were actually pretty good in the beginning - things like the drama between the Shusuke brothers, Kikumaru's troubles, and the like. Then, this manga somehow became about who has the biggest ego. There's almost zero things to even come close to relating to now.

Atobe the king
September 22, 2011, 05:22 PM
The drama never really went anywhere and it's funny you say he was good in the beginning since i found the early arcs of the manga boring. It's a middle school tennis team, you beat the guy on the other side of the net and that's pretty much that. I don't really see how it became and ego fest, the characters motivations and back stories were still present to the very end, not like the actual sport isnt about who has the biggest ego.

Brandnewkid
September 22, 2011, 11:00 PM
The drama never really went anywhere and it's funny you say he was good in the beginning since i found the early arcs of the manga boring. It's a middle school tennis team, you beat the guy on the other side of the net and that's pretty much that. I don't really see how it became and ego fest, the characters motivations and back stories were still present to the very end, not like the actual sport isnt about who has the biggest ego.

Ironic, considering that the end of PoT1 showed how finding fun in tennis made you invincible, and SPoT goes against all that with it's ego-pushing characters, namely the 1st stringers. Go look at the dialogs from any 20 of 'em and see if they come off as having fun playing tennis or fully-intent on killing these middle-school students.

Airgrimes
September 24, 2011, 06:46 AM
Ironic, considering that the end of PoT1 showed how finding fun in tennis made you invincible, and SPoT goes against all that with it's ego-pushing characters, namely the 1st stringers. Go look at the dialogs from any 20 of 'em and see if they come off as having fun playing tennis or fully-intent on killing these middle-school students.

I agree, but perhaps Konomi has done this on purpose.
He probably intends to have several Middle Schoolers in the Top 20.
Which isnt cool at all.

You can only laugh now, the way Date casually sends his opponents into fences, how Yukimura blinds people, how Fuwa blinks and reverses any states.
Or the way Taira can casually break strings on a racket in ONE return and how Hakamada can casually make a shot disappear, but then come crashing down from the sky and cause a bloodfest.

I just hope Konomi doesnt dash these characters like he did with A LOT OF GUYS FROM Part I.

Think about Jirou, Zaizen, Hitouji, Ootori, Mukahi, Yushi etc.

Atobe the king
September 24, 2011, 12:07 PM
Series isn't over all those guys are still in...seeing as everyone you mentioned was from Hyotei or Shitenhouji

Airgrimes
September 24, 2011, 02:22 PM
well, besides Hyotei and Shitenhoji,

There are Mizuki introduced as pretty strong. The flashback shows Yuuta saying he hadnt lost like that since he faced his big bro making us think Mizuki was freaking powerful, he got trashed by Fuji & Atobe who are the sort of guys you expect to trash ppl but surely he is worth more than being trashed and deserves more than being forgotten?

Sengoku, The Jimmies - Introduced as national level players.

Chinen - Introduced with trashing Aoi 6-0. But he was forgotten about immidiately after.........

Ibu & Kamio - Introduced as exccellent Juniors, and not far off from Momoshiro & Kaido's level and had a great back story they have a rivalry and are great characters but they then got forgotten...

I know the series isnt over but, its taken 60+ chapters to get to where we are and we arent far at all, so I really feel its going to be a LONG time til we see the guys that I mentioned in action anytime soon.

Atobe the king
September 24, 2011, 11:54 PM
Mizuki will be okay i think....or he was just a plot device to reuinite Sadaharu and Yanagi lol. Him being trashed by fuji was to show that fuji isnt all smiles and how drastically he'll change for his brother (i forget if this is anime only or not but he kinda beat the crap out of the guys picking on yuuta).

Sengoku was introduced as national level...but the definition of that changed pretty quickly. Jimmies..well they have nothing special...they're from the era of "normal" tennis in PoT. Also you must understand there's two types of national level players..there's national level like fudomine..and there's "tezuka class" players.

Chinen, well i've been trying to point out for a while that rokkaku just isnt on everyones level...to illustrate this konomi made it so that ryoma didnt even play in that match.

Fudomine has been used as introduction fodder =/ they were used to illustrate the strength of Rikkai when tachibana (who was considered tezuka level) gets destroyed by Kirihara. They were used to illustrate how dangerous shiten was when kamio/tetsu/shinji cant even finish a set of tennis with them. Not to mention that they beat Hyoteis crappy reserve players (and shishido intro).

Airgrimes
September 25, 2011, 07:46 AM
Mizuki will be okay i think....or he was just a plot device to reuinite Sadaharu and Yanagi lol. Him being trashed by fuji was to show that fuji isnt all smiles and how drastically he'll change for his brother (i forget if this is anime only or not but he kinda beat the crap out of the guys picking on yuuta).

Sengoku was introduced as national level...but the definition of that changed pretty quickly. Jimmies..well they have nothing special...they're from the era of "normal" tennis in PoT. Also you must understand there's two types of national level players..there's national level like fudomine..and there's "tezuka class" players.

Chinen, well i've been trying to point out for a while that rokkaku just isnt on everyones level...to illustrate this konomi made it so that ryoma didnt even play in that match.

Fudomine has been used as introduction fodder =/ they were used to illustrate the strength of Rikkai when tachibana (who was considered tezuka level) gets destroyed by Kirihara. They were used to illustrate how dangerous shiten was when kamio/tetsu/shinji cant even finish a set of tennis with them. Not to mention that they beat Hyoteis crappy reserve players (and shishido intro).

Now that you mention it, that really is all Fudmoine has been used for...
Well then what about:

Kikumaru, Jackal, Marui, Yagyuu, Kaido, Akutsu, Kite, Ishida Gin ?

Theyve done close to nothing since the tiebreaks...

Do you think they will be back into Singles matches after ALL of the Top 20 are introduced?

Coz remember Oni told Akutsu to ''fill the darkeness in his heart''.
Coz they were all good characters, it would be a shame if they got dashed away.
Although we'll have to wait roughly 10-15 chapters minimum.

It depends if the Top10 play proper matches or if Konomi decides that they win instantly where you click next page and the opponent is breathing heavily on the ground.

Kaoz
September 25, 2011, 08:22 AM
It depends if the Top10 play proper matches or if Konomi decides that they win instantly where you click next page and the opponent is breathing heavily on the ground.

I'd be disappointed if that were to happen, as the 2nd String's top 10 has at least 4 players worth mentioning (Kazuya, Oni, Yamato, and a guy that was not yet introduced in the manga, but got multiple mentions in the pair puris from what I recall).

Atobe the king
September 25, 2011, 10:52 AM
Kikumaru, Jackal, Marui, Yagyuu, Kaido, Akutsu, Kite, Ishida Gin ?


Kikumaru and Kaido are from seigaku...they're safe lol. Yagyuu,marui are safe. Ishida too and ESPECIALLY Akutsu, Konomi had him come out of his retirement for a reason...wouls be so dumb not do anything with him...i just hope he doesnt shoot himself in the foot with having to manage all these characters....we haven't seen ryoma play a complete match at all in this series and to be frank that disturbs me lol.

Airgrimes
September 25, 2011, 03:04 PM
Echizen not playing is an excellent thing.
He has PoP.

Konomi is doing this to allow other players to improve I think.
Surely if he allowed Echizen to go beyond PoP, it would make EVERY other character even Sanada, Fuji, Atobe etc. look like crap lol.

and @ Chaosmaster, your talking about Migihashi Itarou.
He is the guy with long brown hair on the end of the Colour Splash page featuring a lot of the High schoolers like Oni who is crouching down, and Irie, beside Takei and it has Yamato, Tokugawa and the rest.
(I think you know which one im talking about).

Migihashi was on the list I read the pair puri that featured him, so since Konomi has made effort with him,
I hope it means that he, Tokugawa and Oni at least get a full match and not a One Page Killing.
When I say full match I mean like Tezuka VS Yamato full match.

Not like whats happening now with the crappy 5 matches at a time idea.
Its just horrible and I cant even get into the Yukimura Match or the Irie match :/
I SERIOUSLY hope a Tokugawa VS RandomTop10 player doesnt happen at the same time as Migihashi's match, Oni's match and ALL the other matches.

Kaoz
September 25, 2011, 03:11 PM
Ah yes, Migihashi... I can never remember his name and was too lazy to look it up. Incidentally, Pair Puri 9 mentions that his playstyle is Light Rounder... whatever that's supposed to be.

That being said, I think the multiple matches at the same time thing won't be repeated for the top 10 matches. I believe it was mainly so that it actually feels like a revolution.

Airgrimes
September 25, 2011, 04:18 PM
Lol, Light Rounder?
That sounds weird. Ill look it up when I have the time.

And it doesnt feel like a revolution.
It feels...............not good.

I really hope its one match at a time.

Konomi had better not rushany of the characters being introduced during the Top10 matches!!!

He didnt even fully introduce the likes of Washio Issa, Suzuki Shun and Takei Toshio but he quickly turned them into fodder :/

FrostyMouse
September 25, 2011, 06:45 PM
Lol, Light Rounder?
That sounds weird. Ill look it up when I have the time.

And it doesnt feel like a revolution.
It feels...............not good.

I really hope its one match at a time.

Konomi had better not rushany of the characters being introduced during the Top10 matches!!!

He didnt even fully introduce the likes of Washio Issa, Suzuki Shun and Takei Toshio but he quickly turned them into fodder :/

Yeah, we're expecting the Light Rounder to get a good match in, probably.

Considering that probably 8 of the top 10 are going to lose, they don't need huge introductions. It would be nice, but considering that they need to be surpassed for the story to progress, it's not completely necessary.

Takei was roflstomped 6-0 offscreen by Oni, so he was never going to be any good.

Airgrimes
September 29, 2011, 03:05 PM
When you say 8 of the 10, do you mean straight off the bat?
Like in their FIRST match!?
Theyre gonna instantly lose??

I mean, guys like Kai Yuujirou got a full intro even though he was OBVIOUSLY going to lose.
And guys like Nakagauchi's abilities were thoroughly explained.

Washio Issa and Suzuki Shun seemed interesting.

I miss the days when Konomi would explain a character's ability, and their background over the course of the match.
This One Page Kill method is gonna really kill the flow of the anime :/

We havent had a proper 3+ Chapter Match And I mean 'MATCH' (Not all these matches at once) in AGES.
it would be great if Konomi could end this here and hurry up and make Yukimura bounce back against Fuwa.

But mostly, he HAD BETTER give a hint of an explanation with Fuwa's Reflection.

LetalHawk
September 29, 2011, 03:15 PM
When you say 8 of the 10, do you mean straight off the bat?
Like in their FIRST match!?
Theyre gonna instantly lose??

I mean, guys like Kai Yuujirou got a full intro even though he was OBVIOUSLY going to lose.
And guys like Nakagauchi's abilities were thoroughly explained.

Washio Issa and Suzuki Shun seemed interesting.

I miss the days when Konomi would explain a character's ability, and their background over the course of the match.
This One Page Kill method is gonna really kill the flow of the anime :/

We havent had a proper 3+ Chapter Match And I mean 'MATCH' (Not all these matches at once) in AGES.
it would be great if Konomi could end this here and hurry up and make Yukimura bounce back against Fuwa.

But mostly, he HAD BETTER give a hint of an explanation with Fuwa's Reflection.


I expect that next month Yuki will make his comeback since everybody is starting theirs. If Yuki beats him (obviously, he will), will he aim for higher ranks?

Airgrimes
September 29, 2011, 03:28 PM
I expect that next month Yuki will make his comeback since everybody is starting theirs. If Yuki beats him (obviously, he will), will he aim for higher ranks?

He had better.
Since at 4-1, Yukimura got stopped by Sanada's black aura.
But since the little tie-break game ended 7-1, it means Yukimura managed to shut down the Black Aura.

He even tells his Rikkai Dai teammates only HE can Beat Sanada.
So ill be confused if Sanada goes to aim at the top 10 and Yukimura doesnt considering Yukimura is stronger.

Brandnewkid
January 23, 2012, 05:59 PM
Was re-reading the Shitenhoji doubles match with Momo and Kaido vs. Konjiki and Yuuji and found another instance of Konomi-dundancy.

Yuuji's Impressions = Nioh's Illusion.

LetalHawk
January 23, 2012, 06:40 PM
Yuuji's imitations aren't as good as Niou's. I'd say Niou's approach more to the real thing.

Brandnewkid
January 23, 2012, 10:53 PM
Yuuji's imitations aren't as good as Niou's. I'd say Niou's approach more to the real thing.

Yuuji takes on the target's voice and playstyle. Does Nioh not do the exact same thing?

If anything, Nioh is more prone to other tricks, like using fake blood to convince the opponent he's injured, or switching faces with his doubles partner.

Airgrimes
January 24, 2012, 03:34 AM
Thats quite true. Hitouji's Impression was really close to Illusion.

However is creating the IMPRESSION that your facing Tezuka Kunimitsu or Yukimura Seiichi stronger than the ILLUSION?

Its definetely dundancy but I imagine Konomi realized and thought hold on, let me call Niou's an Illusion.

Also, it should mean that Hitouji should be a fairly good Singles player. Although we havent seen and will never see that.

Fuji Shusuke
January 24, 2012, 06:26 AM
On my tier list, Impression is 59 and Illusion is 11. I reckon that Niou's Illusion is much more powerful than Impression. Impression is only limited to voices and techniques. Illusion can emulate voices, appearance, play styles and techniques. Kabaji's Super Copy is more powerful as well because it works by seeing a technique once whereas Impression requires a lot of time to observe the opponents.

LetalHawk
January 24, 2012, 06:34 AM
Kabaji's Super copy is more effective because the time to copy is much shorter. But Kabaji, like Niou, is limited by his own physical abilities, so there will never be a real illusion. If you can copy perfectly all the playstyle, voices, and techniques of the other player, then the Illusion that you're facing another opponent becomes real.

Crasher
January 24, 2012, 07:27 AM
Here are some Konomi-dunduncy move or skills from other characters...

Copycats:
Seigaku - Ryoma
Hyotei - Kabaji
Josei Shonan - Wakato
Shitenhoji - Yuuji
Rikkaidai - Niou
American Team - Kevin

Data Tennis Players:
Seigaku - Inui
St. Rudolph - Mizuki
Rikkaidai - Renji
Shitehoji - Koharu
U-17 previous no. 17 - Akuto

Maybe there are still more...

But imho, I think it is really hard to make a unique special move for each character... I think Konomi-sensei make so many copycats just to differentiate the talents of each... Like for example Wakato, he is copying move from Pros and use them in the match. Kabaji, copy the moves of the one infront of him but by the time that he is not playing with them anymore, he already forgets everything. Niou, the master of copycats, who even copies the form of the Players..

There is somewhat difference in power or level of each character.
Niou > wakato , wakato = kabaji, ryoma > kevin
Konomi made this characters as variations of different levels of the same skills..

Also, I dont know why lot of people are complainingwhy didn't Konomi-sensei introduced the other national players from other schools rather than the ones we are seeing right now. But surely complain, when he introduce the other national players and not seeing the likes of st. Rudolph, fudomine, yamabuki players...

LetalHawk
January 24, 2012, 11:21 AM
There are moves like Atobe Kingdom or TnK that are impossible to copy. Atobe Kingdom is related with the vision, you can't copy Atobe's ultra vision, he was naturally born with that. And no matter how hard you try, unless you have enough experience and you're enjoying tennis, you can't copy TnK.

Brandnewkid
January 24, 2012, 12:02 PM
On my tier list, Impression is 59 and Illusion is 11. I reckon that Niou's Illusion is much more powerful than Impression. Impression is only limited to voices and techniques. Illusion can emulate voices, appearance, play styles and techniques. Kabaji's Super Copy is more powerful as well because it works by seeing a technique once whereas Impression requires a lot of time to observe the opponents.

No it can't. Konomi just draws the target of the illusion for artistic effect. Nioh is not really a shape-shifter. You don't know if Impression requires a lot of time to the observe the opponents. Yuuji just brought it out when Shitenhoji was on the brink. It copies play styles too. That's more or less Illusion.

Fuji Shusuke
January 24, 2012, 12:33 PM
Yukimura says himself that even he is deceived by Niou's Illusion, meaning that his eyes saw Tezuka when Niou was playing Fuji. So Illusion does emulate appearance but as you said, it is not a shape shift, just an Illusion. Oh yeah, Impression does copy play styles but Osamu says that Hitouji needs time to observe and analyse the opponent's habits, behaviour, voice and skills.

Airgrimes
January 24, 2012, 02:01 PM
Here are some Konomi-dunduncy move or skills from other characters...

Copycats:
Seigaku - Ryoma
Hyotei - Kabaji
Josei Shonan - Wakato
Shitenhoji - Yuuji
Rikkaidai - Niou
American Team - Kevin

Data Tennis Players:
Seigaku - Inui
St. Rudolph - Mizuki
Rikkaidai - Renji
Shitehoji - Koharu
U-17 previous no. 17 - Akuto

They arent dundancy...

Ryoma's and Kevins was explained that they use Muga to do so. Also, they they are excellent at copying and actually keeping techniques.

Kabaji's Super Copy was explained because his mind is very pure.

Wakato to be honest is no different to Hitouji. With Niou being the Daddy of them all with Illusion which I believe is due to being able to even copy mannerisms and habits and actually becoming the player.



But imho, I think it is really hard to make a unique special move for each character... I think Konomi-sensei make so many copycats just to differentiate the talents of each... Like for example Wakato, he is copying move from Pros and use them in the match. Kabaji, copy the moves of the one infront of him but by the time that he is not playing with them anymore, he already forgets everything. Niou, the master of copycats, who even copies the form of the Players..


Dont even count Wakato. It has nothing to do with Konomi. THe anime guys were just having a laugh. And actually, Konomi has done the manga so that there are SO MANY ways just to hit a ball. He definetely has tons of ideas.
Kabaji's mind is pure so he is essentially a mirror. Nothing more nothing less.



There is somewhat difference in power or level of each character.
Niou > wakato , wakato = kabaji, ryoma > kevin
Konomi made this characters as variations of different levels of the same skills..
Wakato = Kabaji? I doubt it. The anime showed them play just a game or two. Had they played a full match, Kabaji has pretty good stamina. Wakato would eventually wear out.
Wakato was technically a pretty good player. Not too far away from Kaido, but as a member of Josei Shounan, it would completely counter Konomi's manga if he were to appear as he was not a regular for Josei in the manga, while Kevin doesnt actually counter Konomi.



Also, I dont know why lot of people are complainingwhy didn't Konomi-sensei introduced the other national players from other schools rather than the ones we are seeing right now. But surely complain, when he introduce the other national players and not seeing the likes of st. Rudolph, fudomine, yamabuki players...

Are you kidding? He could have simply ADDED them to the story. And just have more fodder since he has fodderized at least 20-25 of the MSers he brought over. How can a ''National'' camp not have a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL from Kyoto, Nara, Shizuoka, Gunma, Fukuoka, Yamaguchi, Kumamoto or several other big cities in the country. Actually, I have heard each of these places mentioned several times in other animes too, yet the players have only come from Tokyo, Chiba, Kanagawa, Osaka, Okinawa, and individual players from Hyougo, Yamagata and Aichi.

No matter which way you look at it, its not realistic of a ''national'' camp. Its simply players that have faced Seigaku + Kadowaki, Krauser and Richard.
Its not a big deal since I love the characters that were brought anyway. But its definetely a fair argument.

Brandnewkid
January 24, 2012, 05:20 PM
Yukimura says himself that even he is deceived by Niou's Illusion, meaning that his eyes saw Tezuka when Niou was playing Fuji. So Illusion does emulate appearance but as you said, it is not a shape shift, just an Illusion. Oh yeah, Impression does copy play styles but Osamu says that Hitouji needs time to observe and analyse the opponent's habits, behaviour, voice and skills.

You're taking that line way too literally.

Airgrimes
January 25, 2012, 11:13 AM
You're taking that line way too literally.

Not really. Its not like Seigaku were all like ''MASAKA!!, Hitouji has become Momo!!''. But with Niou everybody was like ''MASAKA, Its as if Tezuka is on the court!!''.

I think Konomi corrected his dundancy by having players comment on how this Illusion looks like the real thing.
While making Impression look so-so.

But by right, Hitouji should be quite awesome.

Brandnewkid
January 25, 2012, 05:27 PM
Not really. Its not like Seigaku were all like ''MASAKA!!, Hitouji has become Momo!!''. But with Niou everybody was like ''MASAKA, Its as if Tezuka is on the court!!''.

I think Konomi corrected his dundancy by having players comment on how this Illusion looks like the real thing.
While making Impression look so-so.

Think about that for a second. A player copied Momo ... and then another player copied Tezuka ... and his Hyakuren.

Now tell me which one would get more "ZOMG!!" responses.

Airgrimes
January 26, 2012, 01:12 PM
Think about that for a second. A player copied Momo ... and then another player copied Tezuka ... and his Hyakuren.

Now tell me which one would get more "ZOMG!!" responses.

Precisely what Im saying. Its that simple. Hitouji becoming Kikumaru wouldnt give the visual image that Kikumaru was on the court but the ''Impression'' and nothing but the Impression, while Niou created the ''Illusion'' that Kikumaru was on the court.
Konomi has corrected his dundancy by having the other characters confirm the extent of his Illusion.

Brandnewkid
January 26, 2012, 09:04 PM
Precisely what Im saying.

No it's not. I'm saying that the reason Nioh got more reactions to his technique is because he mimicked Tezuka of all people. If Hitouji mimicked Tezuka he would get the same reactions. An impression and an illusion are roughly the same exact thing.

Airgrimes
January 27, 2012, 01:47 PM
No it's not. I'm saying that the reason Nioh got more reactions to his technique is because he mimicked Tezuka of all people. If Hitouji mimicked Tezuka he would get the same reactions. An impression and an illusion are roughly the same exact thing.

No. Not at all the case. Mimicking ANYONE perfectly would get a reaction.
Illusion and Impression are not the same. Konomi has shown that.

Brandnewkid
February 01, 2012, 08:05 PM
No. Not at all the case. Mimicking ANYONE perfectly would get a reaction.
Illusion and Impression are not the same. Konomi has shown that.

There you go, making scales that don't exist. The skills are the same guy, please admit it. They both even need time to mimic their opponents.

Airgrimes
February 02, 2012, 03:45 PM
There you go, making scales that don't exist. The skills are the same guy, please admit it. They both even need time to mimic their opponents.

Lol, no man. Your right you kinda caught Konomi out but I'll only admit it if you accept Konomi corrected his dundancy bro. Coz be fair, he did correct it with illustrating Niou to actually look like the character. Basically taking it that bit farther, although in theory it shouldnt have made that much of a difference, but... With PoT Logic it makes helluva difference and puts Niou FAR ABOVE Hitouji in Singles.

-Ken-
February 02, 2012, 04:39 PM
Except that Niou Illusion's so good it can even trick the reader. I mean, if you see just the picture and nothing else, can you really tell?

Honestly, though, in practice, I don't think it should make much of an ACTUAL difference. However, this is DBZ tennis. So...

Fuji Shusuke
February 03, 2012, 03:49 AM
Guys, when you see a Niou Illusion, put your face right up to the screen, slap yourself in the face with both hands, put your tongue on the screen, stare at Niou's Illusion and scream out loud. Then take a deep breath through your nose and the Illusion is gone.

The Illusion is your sanity.

LetalHawk
February 03, 2012, 06:43 AM
Guys, when you see a Niou Illusion, put your face right up to the screen, slap yourself in the face with both hands, put your tongue on the screen, stare at Niou's Illusion and scream out loud. Then take a deep breath through your nose and the Illusion is gone.

The Illusion is your sanity.

lol

Airgrimes
February 03, 2012, 01:21 PM
Except that Niou Illusion's so good it can even trick the reader. I mean, if you see just the picture and nothing else, can you really tell?

Honestly, though, in practice, I don't think it should make much of an ACTUAL difference. However, this is DBZ tennis. So...

I think that is Konomi's excuse for making Illusion better than Impression. That Niou genuinely looks like Tezuka, Kikumaru, Mutsu etc.

LetalHawk
February 03, 2012, 05:00 PM
I think that is Konomi's excuse for making Illusion better than Impression. That Niou genuinely looks like Tezuka, Kikumaru, Mutsu etc.

Niou improved dramatically his physical abilities, so he could be able to become power players like Danji or Gin, if he wanted to. If he can hit ZSS, then he has expanded his limits.

Brandnewkid
February 03, 2012, 09:52 PM
Nioh's a broken player. He can become any player, is the best mimic in the series, gets away with cheating, and is already a national-level player on his own. Not to mention he's a beast with both hands.

Airgrimes
February 04, 2012, 04:52 AM
Niou improved dramatically his physical abilities, so he could be able to become power players like Danji or Gin, if he wanted to. If he can hit ZSS, then he has expanded his limits.

We dont know that his physique has improved. Its never even been mentioned. Its shown that he know longer needs time to create his illusion but he can now do it immediately which I think is amazing improvement. Im not saying its impossible to become Ishida or Date but I dont think his physique improved.

I believe his Technique has improved since he can now hit ZSS. However the match should end due to Niou not being able to keep up with being Tezuka hopefully. Since Konomi has made Niou far too strong for my liking. Any player with access to most of Tezuka's abilities is a standard hack.

LetalHawk
February 04, 2012, 07:27 AM
He isn't dumb, when Tezuka no longer works, he can switch to Sanada and spam Rai all over the place before his legs reach their limits. ochi and Mouri aren't strong enough to return Rai, and I'm pretty sure about it.

Brandnewkid
February 04, 2012, 12:33 PM
ochi and Mouri aren't strong enough to return Rai, and I'm pretty sure about it.

How do you know thaat?

Airgrimes
February 04, 2012, 04:50 PM
He isn't dumb, when Tezuka no longer works, he can switch to Sanada and spam Rai all over the place before his legs reach their limits. ochi and Mouri aren't strong enough to return Rai, and I'm pretty sure about it.

I doubt it. if was casually returned, then Im guessing Ochi will reach over and get Rai or something. They must have fantastic reflexes if they are taking a game casually from Atobe Kingdom + Tezuka Zone.
Seriously im hoping Konomi doesnt make Niou as powerful as Tezuka and Yukimura, Sanada etc. He was just that guy in PoT for him to become THE guy in SPoT is just a joke.

LetalHawk
February 05, 2012, 05:31 AM
They are strong, but they don't have Yukimura's level, pre PoP Tezuka couldn't do a thing against Rai, only Yukimura has returned the shot, I doubt Mouri and Ochi, even having returned ZSS, can return Rai, you need an amazing power to return it.

And omg, if they can return it, and they're No.9 and 10, I don't want to imagine about the other first stringers.

Airgrimes
February 05, 2012, 02:37 PM
They are strong, but they don't have Yukimura's level, pre PoP Tezuka couldn't do a thing against Rai, only Yukimura has returned the shot, I doubt Mouri and Ochi, even having returned ZSS, can return Rai, you need an amazing power to return it.

And omg, if they can return it, and they're No.9 and 10, I don't want to imagine about the other first stringers.

Fair point there. But if Ochi naturally serves amazing serves. And Mouri makes ZSS ineffective, as a pair they are quite frightening.
Makes you understand that Rikkai Dai must have had such an easy time at the last year's nationals lol.
Honestly im hoping Atobe/Niou pair lose to the classic, Niou isnt actually Tezuka. Niou runs out of stamina and passes out hopefully when Atobe/Niou are about to win lol.

LetalHawk
February 05, 2012, 02:47 PM
Fair point there. But if Ochi naturally serves amazing serves. And Mouri makes ZSS ineffective, as a pair they are quite frightening.
Makes you understand that Rikkai Dai must have had such an easy time at the last year's nationals lol.
Honestly im hoping Atobe/Niou pair lose to the classic, Niou isnt actually Tezuka. Niou runs out of stamina and passes out hopefully when Atobe/Niou are about to win lol.

I prefer that they win the first match, Atobe was made a fool by Irie, and needs some victory, and Niou has to win throwing away his illusions and play with his true style.

Airgrimes
February 05, 2012, 04:47 PM
I prefer that they win the first match, Atobe was made a fool by Irie, and needs some victory, and Niou has to win throwing away his illusions and play with his true style.

This IS his true style. I think Niou becoming others is an awesome technique as shown in other anime's which usually involve fighting while this tennis....... But yeah its a cool ability if this was any other manga it would be under Genjutsu or Shape shifting. Its great. My only problem is that Konomi might change things and make Niou as strong as his illusion.

I imagine Niou is in the storyline again since he landed a high place of 7 in the Top 10. Whichi is perhaps why Yanagi and Kenya are still getting panel time as they ranked quite highly with Yanagi now 11th and Kenya 9th.
I just feel there should be a limit as to how strong Niou gets.

Brandnewkid
February 05, 2012, 04:57 PM
Wrong thread guys.

LetalHawk
February 05, 2012, 06:10 PM
Wrong thread guys.

Sorry, let's keep discussing on the chapter discussion

Airgrimes
February 06, 2012, 05:36 PM
Sorry, let's keep discussing on the chapter discussion

No, this thread is actually to bitch about Konomi.

Brandnewkid
February 06, 2012, 07:40 PM
No, this thread is actually to bitch about Konomi.

No, it isn't. Stop, before I have to report you. No author is perfect. This thread is to point out Konomi's flaws in the redundancy of the skills he gives to his characters. Quit playing the fool or leave.

Kaoz
February 07, 2012, 07:04 AM
Get back on track guys...