What is your opinion of gender bender?

[phio_chan]

If you take a look at some shoujo/josei series, for example like Kuragehime (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/64845-Josei-Kuragehime-by-HIGASHIMURA-Akiko) or Usotsuki Lily (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=48916), you would notice that there is an element of gender bender in those titles.


Gender Bender series are series with girls dressing up as guys, guys dressing up as girls.. Guys turning into girls, girls turning into guys.. I think you get the picture.

What do you think of crossdressing characters in shoujo/josei series? Do you think it's appropriate? Do you find it uncomfortable? Or perhaps you have another opinion?

Talk it away! <3

[baboysai]

I used to not like gender-benders. Because I started with Hana Kimi, and found BL to be quite... not to my liking, lol. I still don't like BL, so if a gender-bender comes across like that, I usually don't wanna go for it.

Like in the case of Hana Kimi (http://mangahelpers.com/m/hana-kimi), sure she was really a girl. But posing as a guy, another guy fell in love with her... which meant, quite indirectly that it was BL haha. It's not that I can't stand it, )I actually finished the series) but I feel sorry for the guys and the deception.

Another one I read was My Barbaric Girlfriend (http://mangahelpers.com/m/boku-to-kanojo-no-xxx)that I initially started reading because I thought it was fun. It turned out to be too weird for my tastes (too sci-fi and eventually stupid, IMO) that I dropped it.

However, there was Ouran High Host Club (http://mangahelpers.com/m/ouran-host-club) that I really enjoyed because it had a different sense of humor- sort of like, a mockery of shoujo, if you will. Eventually though I also lost interest and dropped it- after the gag wore out and became too fluffy, the direction was lost.
(http://mangahelpers.com/m/ouran-host-club)
I think the case of Kuragehime is different because it's all hetero-romance, hehe. I love this series because it's very well written. A bit unbelievable but there's that slight probability that it could happen. Plus, since it's josei it has a different flavor to it.


Well, in conclusion, I guess gender-bender for most cases usually is just for the gags. It's hard to pull off that the gender-bender should have a strong cohesion up to the end. Most stories fall apart and stray away from this very main plot that they constructed in the beginning. To rank, excluding Kuragehime because I think it wins above all, Hana-Kimi had higher value than Ouran, based on this criteria.

One thing though, it might be shounen but, Ranma 1/2 is by far unsurpassed too.

[Josef K.]

I almost was surprised not to see Ranma there, right until I got to the final sentence of the post. :D

Truly for me, the first introduction to "gender-bender" series was via Ranma, it had a nice base and a very interesting explanation to how these occur, I am sad that gender-bender is now more viewed as "traps" and people with suspicious gender, rather the magical way it used to be defined by, literally a girl changing into a boy and a boy into a girl.

[baboysai]

in short, Josef, you like Gender Benders as long as they're magical? ^^

[Josef K.]

In the old anime glossary that is how I believe it was intended to be, the rise of the trap character was within the previous decade meaning it is something really new. Not that I do not like them, it's just that the meaning really shifted, I like them sometimes but truly I prefer the classics. Plus traps are not really a gender- bender, I mean the person has one gender it is just brought into question because we are not completely sure. On the other hand bending nature is when the person actually has two genders.

[baboysai]

Well I never really went deep into that, but now that you mention it- so that's where the term comes from! bending nature... lol :sweatdrop

[Josef K.]

Hehe, indeed, nature bends, the gender bends, it turns into something else, something unnatural occurs, though the current meaning is actually within all kinds of similar story lines and plots, it's difficult to find the ones I would like since I prefer the old, in my opinion true gender bending mangas.

[MattC302]

The only gender bender manga I read is Wandering son, and it isn't your typical comedic gender bender. It's kind of a serious take on gender identity issues that young people may go through. I highly recommend it for everyone to read. Not just gender bender fans.

Also, I have a weird fetish for gender bent, One Piece fan art :rawfranky

Therefor, I would say that I am a fan of gender bender.

[baboysai]

True Wandering Son is good, but it's seinen- and as such its story writing is much more for adults. The portrayal of it is, at least with my own feeling while watching (the anime) is that it's cute because it's about young children and their "crisis" that because of their innocence don't seem like crises at all.

Genshiken, especially the second installment of the manga, has very prevalent concepts on cross dressing but again it's seinen so it has a very different approach compared to shoujo ones.

[phio_chan]

To be honest I haven't read a gender-bender series. There are no real reasons why; I simply feel strange with the idea of having a boy as a girl and a girl as a boy. I used to have this kind of thinking: "I want to read a shoujo. What's the point in it if the lead female acts as a boy or the one I thought a female is a boy instead?". Though reading your posts above, it seems like it is not that bad. I guess I might give it a try some time soon. ^__^

Perhaps it is indeed designed as an additional element of a series, not that it would stand dominating the plot? Just for the sake of make things merrier.

[baboysai]

Perhaps it is indeed designed as an additional element of a series, not that it would stand dominating the plot? Just for the sake of make things merrier.

oh it's a plot device, for sure. One that has been used for centuries. Even Shakespeare used it.

It's all personal taste- and my personal taste relies heavily on plot if not delivery.

regarding what you said, phio, does that also mean you hesitate on gender-benders because you want purely hetero romance?

[phio_chan]

It's all personal taste- and my personal taste relies heavily on plot if not delivery.

Me too. With the addition of artwork. :nod


regarding what you said, phio, does that also mean you hesitate on gender-benders because you want purely hetero romance?

It's not that I want purely hetero romance. I admit that the basic idea of romance between same sex is still new and strange for me, but I am not completely against this. I found it strange like you did with Hana Kimi. I would have thought like: "This can be done naturally, why should go to disguise as a boy/girl?". ^__^

[baboysai]

do you guys think those into BL, or yuri might like gender-benders as much?

I read into some yuri but I haven't seen gender-benders that entertain this possibility, only BL ones. Wait, maybe Wandering Son had that theme explored a bit, since the cross-dressing boy was the object of his (lesbian) friend's affection? I haven't encountered anything else like it though.

[phio_chan]

It depends on how the readers view the gender-bender-ed characters. XD Probably they wouldn't like it so much because deep inside the relationships between characters are not very real if the gender changes. But they can also love it for giving the chance of 'forbidden' love (I can't find a better word for that, lol XD) inside shoujo/josei series.

Need opinions from fans of yaoi and yuri, it seems. :vbunny

[baboysai]

then you should invite Asclepius to join us then :nuts

[Asahina]

Hehe, indeed, nature bends, the gender bends, it turns into something else, something unnatural occurs, though the current meaning is actually within all kinds of similar story lines and plots, it's difficult to find the ones I would like since I prefer the old, in my opinion true gender bending mangas.The way you were talking about nature & gender bending really moved me. It reminded me of some specific supernatural plot; earth bending, fire bending, air bending, water bending.

Anyhow, in my opinion, gender-bender in the shoujo genre is really an interesting plot device. I find it necessary when trying to introduce science, fantasy, supernatural, comedy, and adventure plots to a shoujo genre.

I've read ½ Prince (http://mangahelpers.com/m/1-2-prince). This manhua has been seen as both shoujo & shounen on a demographic scale. I loved this series not only because of the gender-bender scenario, but also because of the 'living a double life' scenario. The gender-bender character would receive conflicts on how to hide who she really is as the whole gaming world becomes inescapably infatuated by her male-elf game character. The magazine that this series is published in is considered shounen, but the way it is drawn, it's like a bi-shounen. I consider it shoujo regardless of the action that is constantly shown in this.

Another one I've read was Basara (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=264). It centers around a strong female lead. The romance is nothing I've ever read before. It's the gender-bender plot and the dynamics between the characters that make this manga stands out from the 'mainstream shoujo'. Don't let the 'old school shoujo art' clouds your judgement. I got the same impression when I first read this manga, thankfully, I kept on reading until the scenes got even more interesting.

I've also read Romeo x Juliet (http://mangahelpers.com/m/romeo-x-juliet). Personally, I loved the anime better than the manga. The anime was airing before the manga was created, so that may be the reason. A manga is only better than an anime was the manga has its own natural plot. It felt like the manga was based on the anime. Sorta like the Solty Rei (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=3605) (shounen) series, where the manga was based off the anime. The gender-bender element in the story gave a more "shounen" feeling in the beginning of the anime/manga counterpart. One of the best shoujo gender-bender series I've read.

Angel Sanctuary (http://mangahelpers.com/m/angel-sanctuary) was also my ultra fave. It was adapted to anime, so check it out! Great gender-bender series for a shoujo. Warning to younger readers of manga, this may not be for you. Themes of incest run rampant in the series and with how angels and devils are portrayed, it's very controversal to say the least. I actually didn't really understand it. Everyone looks alike, except for the main dude with short hair because he's in every scene. It's very interesting to see that the good guys may not actually be "good guys" and the bad guys may not actually BE that "bad guys." It all depends on how you view them. This manga is very dark but it's illustrations is just superb. It suits the dark and serious tone very well.

Other series like: Yukarism (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=58430), Carat! (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=13367), NG Life (http://mangahelpers.com/m/ng-life), Nephylym (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=14695), Metamo Kiss (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=5552), Destination Heaven Chronicles (http://mangahelpers.com/m/destination-heaven-chronicles), Hana no Asukagumi! (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=4485), Jewels (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=934), and Vampire Game (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=907). There are more, but these are the ones I felt that were interesting.

Mainly in all these shoujo series, the gender-bender aspect doesn't always appear to be the main concentration. I agree with baboysai that the gender-bender scenario is usually just for gags. Its sole purpose is to create more attachment for a certain character.

I think that if a shoujo manga is to have gender-bender, it should also involve scientific, supernatural, or fantasy plots in order to keep the gender-bender aspect of it balanced and unique. In shoujo, the typical gender-bender main character having a school-life and involving themselves in romance, drama, harem and tragedy - gets a little played out. In other words, it needs intense imagination in order for it to really strike home when it comes to popularity.

[Josef K.]

Um I personally really like the Kämpfer anime it had the magic gender-bender that was lost in the old days, it kind of helped me renew my interest, although the series it self was similar to the good old days the plot was obviously a 21st century thing. :/

[baboysai]

Asahina, I think I'll take your word for Basara and start reading it... hehe.

I tried watching the first ep of Romeo x Juliet, and I think I also attempted to read the manga but dropped it very early in the game.

I also tried Angel Sanctuary A LOT- always attempting and never getting past ten chapters because the scans were horrible :shakefist It's strongly recommended by friends here at MH (including the great Xophien) but I never really got down to it. But after your nudge, I might take it up again... if I can just stay above the bad quality scans... :/

[phio_chan]

I think that if a shoujo manga is to have gender-bender, it should also involve scientific, supernatural, or fantasy plots in order to keep the gender-bender aspect of it balanced and unique. In shoujo, the typical gender-bender main character having a school-life and involving themselves in romance, drama, harem and tragedy - gets a little played out. In other words, it needs intense imagination in order for it to really strike home when it comes to popularity.

Great explanation. Perhaps the reason why gender bender is not welcomed so much is because it hasn't been paired with the correct other genre? I admit it is kinda hard for me to imagine what kind of genre goes well with gender bender. You say something scientific and fantasy, but then again I haven't read any series like that so I couldn't tell yet. XD Guess I'll check it out once I have more time~

[kakashi919]

I'm not a fan of gender bender. I just can't read it... it's kind of weird seeing a guy turn into a girl and acting like a girl being in love with another guy. I'm not saying that happens all the time, but it does sometimes. There are the ones where the guy just crossdresses and it can be an interesting manga to read, though I haven't really gotten into those either. If the gender bender stuff isn't too often, then I can actually like it, but having it too often is a no go for me.

[Asclepius]

Hahahaha, i didn't know the term gender bender till i read this discussion.

I usually can't stand shoujo or close to shoujo stories (Sailor Moon trauma). But i loved Ouran. That begining of the series with Tamaki flirting with Haruhi without realizing she was a girl was so good and funny! And yes, the gender-bender fact was a plus for me. I remember describing Ouran as pseudo-shounen-ai. ^_^
Oh the humor around Yakuza-boy and Haruhi express how i feel inside when i read yaoi:

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/146/ouran04.jpg

But, i don't enjoy gender-bender in the BL world. Sometimes a character has the fantasy of seeing the lover in maid clothes or girl-sailor clothes and that doesn't get my expectations high. But dressing like a cat is really cute.
I started to remember the tail plug in Rin http://www.laymark.com/i/o/13.gif

Oh, i just remembered this manhwa about vampire that i tried to read. you know that WTF feeling from Twilight when the vampire started to glow gay-ly? I had the same feeling when the main character said that he became a girl after being bitten. That's probably the real gender bender thing with a guy becoming a girl for real. I can't remember the name of the manhwa right now.

[lawlett-kun]

I have absolutely no problems with gender benders. Most of gender benders I watched/read are amazing. Kuragehime, Usutsuki Lily. I think they add some spiceness and "lol" moments to the plot. I am talking about girl >boy relationship here btw. :D Also gender benders bring epicness to series, for example romeo x juliet haha

[phio_chan]

Does the gender bender element last until the end of the series and play quite a role in the development of the story? Sometimes it is only a mere addition that you feel like "even without gender bender this series can be okay, even better" or something like that. :3

[Josef K.]

Comedy is a key factor for a great gender-bender series! Indeed as I am reading it I am always laughing and keep rereading the interesting situations. There was once a series I read that had a supernatural aspect to it, it also had a small cute cat like thing that always made faces, I do not remember if it was a series where the character was a trap though. That was a rare one that got my attention simply because of the comedy effect. I think it had something to do with the son dressed as a daughter taking over from his mom as some sort of magical girl. Funny stuff. :D

[baboysai]

Hmm Usotsuki Lily sounds good now that I've seen it more than three times in this thread...

Maybe I should give it a try. It sure doesn't sound like anything BL anyway...

[lawlett-kun]

Does the gender bender element last until the end of the series and play quite a role in the development of the story? Sometimes it is only a mere addition that you feel like "even without gender bender this series can be okay, even better" or something like that. :3

well sometimes you know gender bender is a key element, like for example in romeo x juliet. Romeo fall in love with juliet but at the same time he had to fight the guy she was cross dressin into at first. But i agree with prev comments that gender benders goes well with only comedy. But doesnt gender bender bring comedy feeling to series by itself?

[Asclepius]

well sometimes you know gender bender is a key element, like for example in romeo x juliet. Romeo fall in love with juliet but at the same time he had to fight the guy she was cross dressin into at first. But i agree with prev comments that gender benders goes well with only comedy. But doesnt gender bender bring comedy feeling to series by itself?

Not in Okane ga nai. It's a very violent yaoi with constant rape of a 18 years old guy that looks like a 12 years old girl.
Maybe comedy was the author intention, but it didn't make me laugh or smile.

[lawlett-kun]

Not in Okane ga nai. It's a very violent yaoi with constant rape of a 18 years old guy that looks like a 12 years old girl.
Maybe comedy was the author intention, but it didn't make me laugh or smile.

i am fully aware of Okane ga nai. But is it really gender bender? I mean the guy just looks like a girl and thats all. And also i stated that I was refering girl and boy relationship, wasnt talking about yaoi in this case. And btw okane ga nai is not that violent :hurr

[kakashi919]

Constant raping sounds pretty violent to me. :oh

I think the only series I enjoyed with gender bender was To Love Ru. It didn't have much of it and it didn't really go overboard. Maybe because it had so much comedy it didn't bother me so much.

[lawlett-kun]

Constant raping sounds pretty violent to me. :oh

I think the only series I enjoyed with gender bender was To Love Ru. It didn't have much of it and it didn't really go overboard. Maybe because it had so much comedy it didn't bother me so much.

well it wasnt constant raping there. Just couple of time. But thats nott he point. Since i dont see okane ga ani as gender bender really. So gender bender bothers you? I think tis awesome actually and funny

[Asclepius]

It's not consented, so it is constant raping.
I guess you forgot when the okamas in the club dressed Ayase as a maid.

Edit: he wasn't dressed as a maid, but as a nurse (Ayaya-chan=Ayase) (http://www.manga-go.com/r/l_manga/manga/okane_ga_nai/ot/view/96608/okane-ga-nai/vol-05/read/137/). Don't worry, no sex/naked scene in the page.

[kakashi919]

well it wasnt constant raping there. Just couple of time. But thats nott he point. Since i dont see okane ga ani as gender bender really. So gender bender bothers you? I think tis awesome actually and funny

Not all of them. Just the ones where the guy/girl actually turns into the opposite sex often.

[Zeltrax]

It doesn't bother me but I don't find any enjoyment reading it.
I dropped hourou musuko, both the manga and anime after giving it a few episodes. I couldn't really understand the stuff going on so I didn't see the point.

[baboysai]

Does that mean you haven't read any manga with gender bender themes except Houro Musuko? Or you've been avoiding the genre?

Why do you "not find any enjoyment" in it? Is it in bad taste for you, Zeltrax? Does it turn you off? Or something to do with Moral standing, perhaps?

I'm asking in pure curiosity, if you don't mind, so don't feel offended or anything. Consider yourself interviewed, hehe.

[Zeltrax]

Uh.. the only one that I know is hourou. Maybe if there's one that's good, I'll pick it up
but as far as I know, hourou is a great title but like I mentioned, it failed to keep me interested to
continue reading although it's premise is interesting.
It's got nothing to do with moral standing or bad taste, I don't discriminate and I believe everyone have the freedom to choose how to live.
It's simply because it doesn't appeal to me as I don't understand what they are going through, I can't connect with the story, I know it's not hard but it's just not my thing.
Tbh, whether it turns me off? It does at some parts but I can accept it.

However, I'm open to any good series with gender bender and I can give it a try to understand it. :p

[yukihime03]

Gender bender? Well, I don't mind at all, though too many gender bender theme will make me bored of course.
Gender bender is usually the source of comedy in anime/manga so if the scriptwriter/mangaka can weave the story well, it can make a story very funny and romantic. I know quite a lot of gender bender anime/manga, I think the very famous one is Ouran HSHC.

[lawlett-kun]

Gender bender? Well, I don't mind at all, though too many gender bender theme will make me bored of course.
Gender bender is usually the source of comedy in anime/manga so if the scriptwriter/mangaka can weave the story well, it can make a story very funny and romantic. I know quite a lot of gender bender anime/manga, I think the very famous one is Ouran HSHC.

yeah Ouran HSHC is a great example. I honestly have never felt dissapointed in the manga because of the gender bender, on the contarary I think Gender Bender add something special to romance shoujo mangas :XD

[baboysai]

It's simply because it doesn't appeal to me as I don't understand what they are going through, I can't connect with the story, I know it's not hard but it's just not my thing.

Interesting.

Sometimes I do find gender benders to be too shallow. Quite unbelievable, especially in this day and age. That is why if there are sci-fi or fantasy elements then it might pass easily as reasons why changing genders happens. If its due to something bizarre, chances are, the characters don't have any choice in the matter (Ex. Ranma)

Example, at first Hana Kimi's premise that she pretended to be a boy just to be in the same school as her crush (that she saw only in magazines, to boot) was definitely too contrived to me. :/

But some may be forgivable. Like Ouran, where the girl protagonist was enrolled in an all-boys school and made to act like a boy because that school was prestigious and she got in on a scholarship.

I also like the premise of Uwasa no Midori Kun (http://mangahelpers.com/m/uwasa-no-midori-kun) because she joins an all-boys school who has the highest chances of competing against her rival (and his school) in football.


Non-fantasy gender benders should have enough believable motivation. Because really, changing into a boy or a girl REQUIRES A LOT OF EFFORT, not to mention painful and inconvenient. So the characters need to have not only conviction, but they have to have the background so we can understand why they're putting themselves up for something utterly stupid.

[yukihime03]

Ah yeah, one thing I don't like about gender bender is that the other characters are quite stupid for spending a lot of time with girl-turned-boy/boy-turned-girl yet not suspecting anything. Only after a "particular accident", they will be shocked and so on. I mean, hey, take a look at his/her throat and you'll find out.

[rudorofu]

Gender benders...It's not that I hate or dislike them, but I'd prefer not to read them because they are awfully confusing @_@ I have a hard time following who's who when the girls look so much like guys and vice versa so I just don't bother. The manga series I read should make sense to me and not make it such a trivial matter for me while I'm reading :x But that's just my personal opinion.