Time/Space Ninjutsu... Where is the time so far???

[Eprst]

Hi dear naruto experts,

Well we have seen time space ninjutsus by Minato and by Tobi - I would agree there is a space manipulation because Minato could go to any other places and Tobi could warp anything to absolutely different dimension... Well I think there is one more user which is Orochimaru he was also manipulating with dimensions...

But from all these examples we havent seen anything related to time? Have you ever thought about it dear experts? If so maybe there is still more to come from Tobis abilities)

[SnailBeast]

teleportation is impossible.
Technically you are switching dimention, holding time, walking to different place and returning to basic dimention so it makes in an instant or smthng like this.

[Disastorm]

teleportation is impossible.
Technically you are switching dimention, holding time, walking to different place and returning to basic dimention so it makes in an instant or smthng like this.
You are incorrect, teleportation is possible with the manipulation of space, without the need for manipulating time.

In any case, in sci fi, time and space are usually linked together so they are used in the same term time/space, its possible thats how its being used here, and we may not see tobi do anything related to time.

[kkck]

Aren't space and time the same thing in the end (hence space time jutsu)? I am not saying they should be able to time travel though.

[Eprst]

Well actually now I remember time manipulation - Tobi did it, when he fooles bunch of kages, I am not sure does manga describe this or this is unknown Tobis ability?

[SHeeDeD]

u guys are arguing about something even scholars cant agree with each other about. but, most of them are saying time and space are separated( as i remember from the magazine that i read)

[Quantized]

u guys are arguing about something even scholars cant agree with each other about. but, most of them are saying time and space are separated( as i remember from the magazine that i read)

Einstein would disagree :o
While it's discussed that time and space might be "slight" out of sync with each other, it's so small that it's almost impossible to measure, atleast with current technology, however a rogue theory.
Time and Space is connected, and it's what makes the universe work with our current understanding. If the sync between time and space was big, (assuming there is a minor one to begin with) the universe would essentially fall apart.

What Einstein said that time and space is not separated from each others is heavily supported by all mainstream science as of today.

VERY basic explanation of what is meant;

Spacetimes are the arenas in which all physical events take place—an event is a point in spacetime specified by its time and place. For example, the motion of planets around the sun may be described in a particular type of spacetime, or the motion of light around a rotating star may be described in another type of spacetime. The basic elements of spacetime are events. In any given spacetime, an event is a unique position at a unique time. Because events are spacetime points, an example of an event in classical relativistic physics is (x,y,z,t), the location of an elementary (point-like) particle at a particular time. A spacetime itself can be viewed as the union of all events in the same way that a line is the union of all of its points, formally organized into a manifold, a space which can be described at small scales using coordinates systems.

This is also how Einstein realized E=M*C^2, time is important to mainstream physics.
Some still argure whether time is real or not, but if it turned out to be "not real" then all our current understanding of physics would fall apart and we'll have to rebuild it or heavily change it.

So when one say that Minato's "space time" jutsu can't go through time, it might be that he can only instantly teleport. The "Rozenbridge" thoery of Einstein, and not the general understanding of time and space below.

Further more, Einstein said that you can only go forth in time, you can't go back again.
This has been proved so many times now, you can in fact go forth in time, but many people don't realize this, but it's mainstream physics.
What many astrophysicist's are unsure about, is can you go "back" in time...? This is the one million dollar question, is it possible...?
Some think you have to travel faster than light, thus, it's impossible. While others again have other theories on how to find a way back in time.

Regardless, it makes absolutely perfect sense to call it a space time jutsu, afterall, Minato is changing the x y z and time t coordinates in space AND time, exactly like in physics (:
So Minato's t, is merely considered constant by the flow of time, he seemingly can't change it.
All he can change is x y z while t remain the same given the current movement "in" the universe. (Keep in mind, the faster you move, the slower time goes, the slower you move the faster time goes, space and time is always connected.).

Think that there is a limitation on the jutsu for time travel, it'd be too haxed.
Also he's technique doesn't fit with forth ward space time travel, you need "speed" to change the rhythm of time.

The faster you go, the slower the time goes in your time frame, while the ones you leave behind remain in their time frame. This is proven fact in Physics, it's NOT Sci Fi.

Thus, Minato is moving instantly, he goes POP and he's gone, his jutsu is not working with speed.
Essentially what Minato is doing is creating wormholes (Einstein's Rozenbrigde), which is a tunnel from one point in time and space to another point in time and space.
2 things, we don't see these "wormholes" and Minato can't change time, however he still "breaks" time, by moving out of the frame "time and space" and back into another space but with same time. Since he broke time, and changed space, it's still considered a spacetime jutsu by all means.

My 2 cents on the jutsu to real life physics, I'm merely highly interested in physics, I'm not working with this daily or something, so if I did say something wrong somewhere here, feel free to point it out (:

[badluckartist]

Moving through space faster than light, as ST jutsus imply the user to do, essentially moves the user through time as well (or something distant from the user, like Kamui). Or rather, the two become synonymous with one another at that point (probably why the words are always featured together, and never apart).

Tobi's ST jutsu seems to be wholly unique, though, since we (as the readers) have seen that his jutsu involves the existence of some kinda extra-dimensional pocket universe... so there's that >_> In reality, it just means that Tobi could have a dimension-hopping ability only, since he potentially wouldn't need to travel faster than light in order to teleport long distances if the rules of his own dimension allowed it.

[EnvyOS]

Regardless, it makes absolutely perfect sense to call it a space time jutsu, afterall, Minato is changing the x y z and time t coordinates in space AND time, exactly like in physics (:
So Minato's t, is merely considered constant by the flow of time, he seemingly can't change it.
All he can change is x y z while t remain the same given the current movement "in" the universe. (Keep in mind, the faster you move, the slower time goes, the slower you move the faster time goes, space and time is always connected.).

Just a little something to add in here. Gravity plays a major roll on how much Space and Time are distorted. The closer you are to a Black Hole, the faster time speeds up outside of it's pull.

But overall you hit the needle on the head.

[Delbi]

Thus far all the Space Time jutsu used revolve around a ninja moving from point A to point B in a relatively short amount of time or instantly. Also, in Madara, Kakashi and Orochimaru's case (and in the case of all sealing jutsu) we have people who have the ability to move an object or person into a different demension.

But, what we have yet to see, is someone distort time itself, as in stop it, slow it, or speed it up. In this sense, only Itachi has ever been able to do such a thing in his genjutsu world of Tsyukiyomi.

[GetToSomeSleep]

I hope there wont be any time travelling, it would ruin this manga... its just too haxed.

[Suzaku]

It's not "Space and time" ninjutsu. It's "spacetime" ninjutsu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Spacetime is not a scifi concept, it is one of the most fundamental principals of physics. Spacetime is the four-dimensional "ocean" that everything in the universe "floats" in.

And to whoever said it, no, you can't travel through time without also traveling through space. If you tried to travel just through time, you would wind up somewere different, because the universe is constantly expanding and the planets and stars are all moving around in space, relative to the passage of time. The Earth would literally move out from under you.

[Quantized]

It's not "Space and time" ninjutsu. It's "spacetime" ninjutsu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Spacetime is not a scifi concept, it is one of the most fundamental principals of physics. Spacetime is the four-dimensional "ocean" that everything in the universe "floats" in.

And to whoever said it, no, you can't travel through time without also traveling through space. If you tried to travel just through time, you would wind up somewere different, because the universe is constantly expanding and the planets and stars are all moving around in space, relative to the passage of time. The Earth would literally move out from under you.

"Almost" entirely agree with you. Space and time and spacetime really is the same thing.
It's the same as saying "Miles pr. hour", it's also "space and time", but it's also spacetime at the same time, since you move in space.
Miles are also pointless without time (hour) the same way as space is pointless without time. Time is pointless without distance or area.

Whether you're talking about time isolated, or space isolated, or as you call it "spacetime" as the combined effect between space and time doesn't matter. It's still the same thing, as long you combine them.

Also I ain't sure I would agree with that you can say you can purely travel in time without changing space, you my friend, can't prove that any better than Einstein could, unless you got proof of this of cours..? :tem
Mainstream accepted physics is not proof, it's merely an accepted understanding.
For all we know, it may not be possible to purely travel in time, you would likely also need to travel in space. I'm not talking about relativity now, but wormholes.

If you were to travel through a wormhole, sure enough, one may say time cease to exist the moment you enter (or almost), and you instantly reappear on the other side.

But don't forget that without space and time, or spacetime, matter would not exist.
If you were to enter this wormhole and to purely travel in time, would you cease to exist the same way the atoms making you up would..?

One may also consider the possibility that once you go through a wormhole, assuming time cease to exist the moment you're inside, would cause you to never appear again, since you don't "Move" in space.

Can you really separate space and time...? I don't think it's possible without the other, either you would freeze without time or you would loose your existence.
Space and time, both always have to be there with our current understanding, imho.

If we wanted to "leave" our universe, we would most likely have to create our own space and time mini universe. The same thing will likely have to be applied to wormholes, or if you want to attempt to travel purely in time, which in essence, can't be done as far as we know.

Can you freeze time...? We really don't know if this is possible yet.. no less whether atoms would cease to exist the moment you try.

[Suzaku]

Also I ain't sure I would agree with that you can say you can purely travel in time without changing space, you my friend, can't prove that any better than Einstein could, unless you got proof of this of cours..? :tem
When I say it's "spacetime" not "space and time", what I'm saying is that the term used in Naruto is 時空間 (Jikūkan), which literally means "Spacetime", as in the unified concept of space and time. They are ninjutsu that manipulate the spacetime continuum.

It's not a matter of "they are teleporting but when will they time travel?" as the OP seems to think. The two are inextricably linked.


Also, reread my post, I said you can't travel in time without also traveling through space.

Even based purely on the basic mechanics of the universe, you'd at the very least have to change your physical coordinates in space to compensate for the rotation and orbit of the Earth and the expansion of the universe.

For example, 6 months and 12 hours ago, even if you were sitting at your computer reading this forum, you would not have been at the same point in the universe you are in right now. You were on the opposite side of the sun, with the Earth rotated around to the opposite of where it is now. So if you tried to travel back in time 6 months and 12 hours, without also changing your location within space, you'd wind up floating in outer space.

Everyone knows that the Earth isn't a flat, stationary surface, but whenever they think about time travel, they seem to forget that the Earth is hurling through space and they're riding on it.


Of course, there's also the theory that the entire universe as we see it is just a 3D projection of two-dimensional information.

So the nature of spacetime is something we still have very little grasp of.

But within relation to Naruto, it means manipulating the spacetime continuum with ninja magic.

[Tonix]

Also I ain't sure I would agree with that you can say you can purely travel in time without changing space, you my friend, can't prove that any better than Einstein could, unless you got proof of this of cours..? :tem


I know you are talking about irl things, but would Izanagi count? It allows the user to travel through time to point when they weren't injured, while leaving the rest of the universe unchanged . It seems like a purely time and no space jutsu when you think about it like that, but maybe I'm just missing the space part.

[Suzaku]

Izanagi doesn't reverse time, and it's not spacetime ninjutsu. It's yin-yang transformation, which modifies the nature of reality and illusions.

Basically, it briefly turns reality into an illusion. So if you get fatally wounded, you can use Izanagi to turn that injury into an illusion, which means it never actually happened.

[Quantized]

@Suzaku
Well the reason I went down that road was because you made it look differently from space and time and spacetime and came with the example if you only changed time, but used the same x y z coordinates you'd end up in a new place, which in large I agree, but we still can't prove what exactly would happen though, it's a realistic mainstream guess at best.
The Universe expanding faster than light indeed makes it pretty devastating if you tried to change time and not make up for the new coordinates in which the universe had shrunk or expanded accordingly to time, I agree with you on that, but still only a theory though.

One also have to consider if it's the universe "expanding" that creates time, if this is the case then time travel "back" in time might be impossible.. If the universe first and foremost "creates" time rather than space and time creates the universe, then it seems impossible to travel in time other than relativity.

What put me off is that you keep saying there is a difference between the terms, yet also saying there isn't. This might just be a language barrier, who knows if we misunderstood each others somehow :tem

Fun thought:
We still don't know if time and space is in perfect sync with each others either, seems we can't measure it yet, *shrug* we'll see some day, I'm really curious about this specific theory, always nice to learn something new.

@Tonix
Izanagi is indeed likely not a timespace jutsu as Suzaku explained, although I wish he had more intel on that specific jutsu, it seems interesting :)

[Suzaku]

Izanagi was pretty much fully explained when Danzou and Madara used it. It's based on the same abilities that the Sage of Six Paths used to turn illusion into reality (which is how he created the Tailed Beasts), except it works in reverse. To use Izanagi you also need the same genetic makeup as the Sage (Senju + Uchiha DNA).

Basically, Yin is "spiritual energy" and is linked to the imagination, while and Yang is "physical energy" and is linked to vitality. The Uchiha clan obtained the Sage's eyes and his control over Yin chakra, while the Senju clan obtained his body and control over Yang chakra. Yin also represents darkness, and Yang light.

By taking Yin (imagination) and applying Yang (vitality) you can create reality from an illusion (this is the Sage's ability "Universal Creation"). By taking Yang (vitality) and applying Yin (imagination) you can turn reality into an illusion (this is the ability "Izanagi").

[juUnior]

To use Izanagi you also need the same genetic makeup as the Sage (Senju + Uchiha DNA).
I still want to know why the hell Tobi said its "the forbidden Uchiha clan technique", its just contradictory to this statement with the Senju dna.

[DementedKirby]

Space/time is one single thing. It's not space-or-time, it's space/time. Therefore, space/time jutsu refers to actual teleportation and not simulated teleportation (body flicker, etc). It's not that there aren't justu that just manipulate space or just manipulate time, just that space/time refers to actual teleportation.

[sentazar]

Easy way to understand spacetime is thinking of time as a location

x,y,z coordinates @ xx:yy time is not the same location as x,y,z coordinate at gg:cc time.

D:

So you would have to bend both. Goku`s instant transmission is a good representation of how Spacetime ninjutsu works.

[xXan]

Just read on wormhole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Its something like this.


Also some people really need to read up on what spacetime is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime


I still want to know why the hell Tobi said its "the forbidden Uchiha clan technique", its just contradictory to this statement with the Senju dna.

Because you can use that as Uchiha (no need for senju blood) but it would last for only a fraction of what it would last if you had Senju DNA. It is forbidden" as you lose that eye.
Senju DNA just makes it "perfect"in a sense and extends the duration. Madara can do from 5 to 10 minutes (depends how you interpret the event) and a normal Uchiha can do it for the briefest of moments. Not even Danzou that had some senju DNA + Oro made modifications could not use it that long.

[young simba]

What is weird about inzangi and how the sage created the tailed beasts is that the beasts have emotions of their own. I agree with most in this thread. The spacetime jutsu is just a jutsu that manipulates space and time

[xXan]

What is weird about inzangi and how the sage created the tailed beasts is that the beasts have emotions of their own. I agree with most in this thread. The spacetime jutsu is just a jutsu that manipulates space and time

It is not weird. After the biju's where created they got separate minds in a sense. Think of multiple personality disorder. It happeneds even to us in a sense.

Of course its obvious RK was using Izanagi to a completly diferent level then what we got to see up to now.