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faintsmile1992
November 03, 2011, 12:55 AM
Have you ever wondered why boys tend to hate Raki, but straight females tend to have a crush on him both before and after the time skip? He has so many of these qualities.:^_^

Spunks, sex appeal 'what women really want'
By Emily O'Keefe

Women might not want to admit it but when it comes to what they really want in a man it's all about good looks and sex appeal, according to new research.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/7959134/spunks-sex-appeal-what-women-really-want


According to the 2800 women surveyed in the study, honesty, trustworthiness, love, respect, humour and kindness were the most important attributes a man could bring to a relationship.

But further questioning revealed what really mattered the most to them was sexual attraction, good looks, sharing similar interests and masculinity.

D&M research director Derek Jones, who led the study, said the research had come up with some unexpected results.

"What I thought I was going to unearth was the importance of the "bad boy quality" but it didn't really turn out that way," Mr Jones told ninemsn.

"Instead I found that you just can't underestimate the power of sexual attraction and good looks."

The national study, which included women of all ages, found the top five turn offs in a man were dishonesty, anger, arrogance, poor hygiene, and rudeness.

Raki's certainly not a beta. He's an alpha who respects and worships his lady, and his post-timeskip personality traits haven't really changed from before, they've only been nurtured by Isley.

This article explains why Raki is so hot too.

Why It's Smart for Teen Girls to Date Younger Boys
by Jillita Horton

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/501153/why_its_smart_for_teen_girls_to_date.html?cat=25


All along, I've always thought that if teen girls usually dated younger boys, the teen pregnancy rate would be significantly lower. What's a more likely scenario: 1) an 18 year old man pressuring a 16 year old girl to have sex; or, 2) a 14 year old boy pressuring a 16 year old to have sex?

Come on, you know that many more times than not, the boy who gets on the girl's case to lose her virginity is older. Even one year older is substantial, when we're talking a 15 year old girl and 16 year old boy.

It just stands to reason that a boy will feel more confident about putting on the heat to a naïve girl to have sex, if she is younger.

Several years ago, it finally happened: A demographic study came out that verified my suspicions all along: A boy is far more likely to pressure a girl to have sex when she's younger!

Girls say they prefer older boys because they are more mature. Where did they get this idea from, considering that older boys seem to have only one thing on their mind? A boy talking a lot about having intercourse, telling the girl she should lose her virginity, threatening to break up with her if she doesn't - THAT'S maturity?

On the other hand, a boy who openly shows a sincere, genuine interest in an older girl is a boy with self-confidence who doesn't easily follow the crowd. He doesn't care what the herd mentality thinks and is not easily swayed by the foolish opinions of others. Sounds like a pretty mature kid to me. But typically, the girl of his affection will blow him off because he still doesn't need to shave, or doesn't have a driver's license. Now THAT'S immaturity on the part of the girl.

That older boy, with his gleaming car and part-time job, has more appeal to her. But a car and money don't mean he's mature and responsible!

If your 15 year old daughter has a crush on a 13 year old boy, don't fret! So what if he's only 5-2! In a few years he could be six feet. Would you rather that your daughter do what all the other girls her age are doing - going after the college boys?

Suppose you speak to 1,000 teen girls who had out-of-wedlock pregnancies. Now honestly, what percentage do you think got pregnant by younger boys? Be honest. You know doggone well you'd name a very, very, very low percentage.

Now, that 14 year old boy may be on course to becoming a very horny, pushy 17 year old. But like I said, it's logical to conclude that a 14 year old boy who approaches a 16 or 17 year old girl is a boy who feels very sure of himself, perhaps thinks on a very mature level, and isn't intimidated by what his peers might think. I can easily see him developing into a trustworthy, sensitive and respectful young man.

Lastly, when a teen girl is in an abusive relationship, what are the odds that the boy is younger, and I don't mean two months younger, but rather, she's 17, he's 15; or she's 16, he's 14, or she's 14, and he's 13? You know the answer.


So straight girls evaluate males Raki in terms of wether he has traits that make him daddy material, like his proving himself as a man to protect Clare, whilst straight boys aren't looking for such traits in other males so they're more likely to remember him as crying when he was first introduced, rather than his manliness which led him to overcome his crying, and they don't tend to notice that he did it for Clare because they aren't checking him out as a mate. If they had the instincts to find a male mate, they'd innately recognise his 'stick around' alpha traits before the timeskip, which we girls did.

My Raki-chan is much more of a man than Raki-haters! :p

ZERO PHOENIX
November 03, 2011, 11:23 AM
Ummmmmm, no.



Have you ever wondered why boys tend to hate Raki,

From a literary standpoint Raki is a damsel in distress. He possesses few masculine qualities that typical readers are familiar with.



but straight females tend to have a crush on him both before and after ?

I've never known anyone healthy having a crush on Raki. You might say "some" females have a crush on him but if we're talking about having a crush on ficitional character then that's an entirely different discussion littered with its own landmines.




Women might not want to admit it but when it comes to what they really want in a man it's all about good looks and sex appeal, according to new research.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/7959134/spunks-sex-appeal-what-women-really-want

You are aware these studies deal with human men yes? :-_-





According to the 2800 women surveyed in the study, honesty, trustworthiness, love, respect, humour and kindness were the most important attributes a man could bring to a relationship.

But further questioning revealed what really mattered the most to them was sexual attraction, good looks, sharing similar interests and masculinity.

D&M research director Derek Jones, who led the study, said the research had come up with some unexpected results.

"What I thought I was going to unearth was the importance of the "bad boy quality" but it didn't really turn out that way," Mr Jones told ninemsn.

"Instead I found that you just can't underestimate the power of sexual attraction and good looks."

The national study, which included women of all ages, found the top five turn offs in a man were dishonesty, anger, arrogance, poor hygiene, and rudeness.

How does any of this tie-in with a manga?




Raki does have the positive aspects of the 'bad boy' quality, he's certainly not a beta. He's an alpha who respects and worships his lady, and his post-timeskip personality traits haven't really changed from before, they've only been nurtured by Isley.

Issue number one is that contrary to what interpretation you may have taken from these findings, Raki does not exhibit any traits of a "bad boy." Not only that but while some women might be attracted to a man who "worships" them, embodying this trait is emasculating for men and more or less irritating for women who value their independence.



This article explains why Raki is so hot too.

Why It's Smart for Teen Girls to Date Younger Boys
by Jillita Horton

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/501153/why_its_smart_for_teen_girls_to_date.html?cat=25

Is hot a scientific term? The article does not explain why Raki is hot. The article explains why some researchers believe teenage girls should date younger boys. The entire issue with this ridiculous thread is that you misappropriated, well, everything you posted here. The article is dealing with, you know, actual human beings. Claymore well, it's a comic book. Secondly, this article only has bearing in socially and mentally healthy teenage girls. Most of our Claymores are adult women with social and psychological issues.




So straight girls evaluate males Raki in terms of wether he has traits that make him daddy material, like his proving himself as a man to protect Clare, whilst straight boys aren't looking for such traits in other males so they're more likely to remember him as crying when he was first introduced, rather than his manliness which led him to overcome his crying, and they don't tend to notice that he did it for Clare because they aren't checking him out as a mate. If they had the instincts to find a male mate, they'd innately recognise his 'stick around' alpha traits before the timeskip, which we girls did.

My Raki-chan is much more of a man than Raki-haters! :p

Enjoy your fiction. :p

faintsmile1992
November 03, 2011, 11:52 AM
'Hot' may not be a scientific term, but science shows the traits that attract people to mates of the opposite sex. And as to 'You are aware these studies deal with human men yes?', if you mean what I think you mean then women are attracted to the same things in fictional characters as they are in real life. This is however the interesting bit of what you just wrote.

"Issue number one is that contrary to what interpretation you may have taken from these findings, Raki does not exhibit any traits of a "bad boy." Not only that but while some women might be attracted to a man who "worships" them, embodying this trait is emasculating for men and more or less irritating for women who value their independence."

Zero Phoenix, would you say the medieval courtly knight of medieval literature is a manly alpha, or an emasculated beta? My point was that not all alpha men are 'bad boys', its possible for an alpha to respect women, and Raki is the kind of male the troubadors sang about in northern Iberia and southern France. That's why Raki has an appeal to female Claymore fans on the different forums that most of the male fans don't understand. The first article in particular explains why men and women see Raki differently, so it does have something to do with Claymore. People think Raki changed his personality after the timeskip. He didn't, his personality traits from before the timeskip are still present, he's just got stronger.

(The idea that alphas are bad boys and betas are good is a myth of a media led by beta males and feminists who seek to promote emasculated men and to demonise alphas. And because of the message, many alpha types now feel they have to be bad boys because its expected of them.)

Louvre
November 03, 2011, 04:58 PM
From a literary standpoint Raki is a damsel in distress.

I think this should had ended the discussion. Fact.

HegemonKhan
November 03, 2011, 09:14 PM
Raki was not a damsel in distress:

1. He was willing to die with Clare in the cathedral, in an attempt to protect her from her letting Galk decapitate her.

2. He certainly was not a damsel in distress against Ophelia, he just didn't have the power to succeed, which was to be expected obviously.

3. He stood up to Cid and Galk in Rabona in defense of Clare, that certainly takes bravery. I would never stand up to a cop or policeman, which is the equivalent of Cid and Galk.

4. He managed to follow Clare, until he collapsed in "The Fields".

5. He survived on his own after they separated due to Ophelia.

6. He survived Isley and Priscilla, and Isley's training.

7. He wasn't afraid of Clare, even though she could Awaken at any time and eat him up

8. He bravely tried to punch the NY in his second time.

9. etc...

----------------

Raki is a human, so of course he's powerless, but that's a far cry from being a damsel in distress, especially with his displayed bravery in such a terrifying world and situations.

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

Please keep this thread respectful towards others and decent (non-vulgar) too, or this thread will be closed.

I'm going to be a bit more passive with arguments being made in the posts as this is more of a political debate or discussion. But, if anything offends you, please pm me or report the post, and I'll address it quickly as I can (and let you know that I am looking into it), so please don't respond with a post of your own that will get you into trouble. PM me or report the post if anything offends you, and let me adress it, so you don't get into trouble yourself.

earthforge
November 03, 2011, 09:51 PM
Eh? The spikes in blood pressure in some people in this thread is quite confusing. So the heck what if Raki is more appealing to girls than guys? It's not surprising.

For one, this is a manga about hot blonde women in silver suits jumping around and killing monsters. That's automatically going to shift the manga appeal to more guys than gals (plot's a nice motivator and whatnot, but Claymore's plot isn't the most original or driving that I've read, so fanservice is the deciding factor).

Think about it: had Raki never been introduced, I doubt there would be as many female fans. While mainly acting as a our viewpoint so we could pull apart and examine Claire's character and motivations, he doubled as an interesting character on his own. I certainly wouldn't have started reading Claymore were it not for his tenacity and dedication to follow Claire. It was a good hook, and gave a nice relationship to examine. Relationships are more interesting to girls, if you think about it (social dynamics with females is alliances, with males it's looking for the angry face - see anthropological studies on this.)

faintsmile1992
November 04, 2011, 01:01 AM
HK has listed Raki-chan's alpha traits which most men do not understand whilst females pick up on them.

"According to the 2800 women surveyed in the study, honesty, trustworthiness, love, respect, humour and kindness were the most important attributes a man could bring to a relationship.

But further questioning revealed what really mattered the most to them was sexual attraction, good looks, sharing similar interests and masculinity."

Khorr
November 04, 2011, 08:32 AM
For me, I watched the Claymore anime first before reading the manga. Hearing the horrible annoying voice of Raki in the dubbed English version of the anime has forever earned my loathing for this character. Die Raki die! Die die die!! Never has a character I wanted to get ripped apart and eaten by yoma in Claymore then Raki.

If you have any respect for Raki at all, make sure to turn on mute whenever Raki speaks if you watch the dubbed Englih version of the anime!

faintsmile1992
November 04, 2011, 01:40 PM
It's a shame I can't dislike posts Khorr, ;)

But a lot of people seem to dislike anime Raki whilst showing respect for manga Raki. Of course Raki really is a little kid when he first appears in the manga, so that explains why he cried so much at first, but he's taller when he first appears in the anime. According to the Funi audio commentaries, Raki is 12 through the entire series, which is much less acceptable especially to men, but he's still only entering his teens anyway, so he will be a bit more childlike at first. If he wasn't then we couldn't squee as he gets manlier lol.

I like him in both, but I agree he's much hotter in the manga.

Louvre
November 04, 2011, 02:19 PM
Raki was not a damsel in distress:

1. He was willing to die with Clare in the cathedral, in an attempt to protect her from her letting Galk decapitate her.


For a boy who had nothing, and that would probably die anyway if left alone, dying 1 day before, or 1 day after made no difference.



2. He certainly was not a damsel in distress against Ophelia, he just didn't have the power to succeed, which was to be expected obviously.


Why do you assume it was bravery? Why not blind anger?



3. He stood up to Cid and Galk in Rabona in defense of Clare, that certainly takes bravery. I would never stand up to a cop or policeman, which is the equivalent of Cid and Galk.


There's a big difference between rebelliousness and bravery. Certainly a kid being called a kid, will pretend to be a "grown up". Every kid does that. Until they really grow up, then we all want to be kids again. Hehe.



4. He managed to follow Clare, until he collapsed in "The Fields".


Again, I think it's a survival instinct, not bravery. This is something that Clare accomplished following Theresa. Does that makes Clare manly?



5. He survived on his own after they separated due to Ophelia.


Well yes, but for how long? He found Priscilla and Isley pretty quickly, and I doubt that Isley made him work to earn his bread.



6. He survived Isley and Priscilla, and Isley's training.

He survived WITH Isley and Priscilla, with them, not them. Priscilla hugging him all the time... I don't know, doesn't sound much of a challenge.



7. He wasn't afraid of Clare, even though she could Awaken at any time and eat him up

Any "monster" giving you bread is better than starving to death.



8. He bravely tried to punch the NY in his second time.

Then he cried.

I'm not being stubborn, but I just never saw this "bravery" of a little kid who had nothing in his life. It's more like a little puppy struggling to hold to his only chance to live.

faintsmile1992
November 04, 2011, 03:11 PM
Raki was not a damsel in distress:

1. He was willing to die with Clare in the cathedral, in an attempt to protect her from her letting Galk decapitate her.

2. He certainly was not a damsel in distress against Ophelia, he just didn't have the power to succeed, which was to be expected obviously.

3. He stood up to Cid and Galk in Rabona in defense of Clare, that certainly takes bravery. I would never stand up to a cop or policeman, which is the equivalent of Cid and Galk.



For a boy who had nothing, and that would probably die anyway if left alone, dying 1 day before, or 1 day after made no difference.



Why do you assume it was bravery? Why not blind anger?



There's a big difference between rebelliousness and bravery. Certainly a kid being called a kid, will pretend to be a "grown up". Every kid does that. Until they really grow up, then we all want to be kids again. Hehe.

Clue, Louvre-san: teenage boys have a lot of male hormones. ;) And in Raki's case, his desire to be Clare's manly protector 'awakened'...

Louvre
November 04, 2011, 10:24 PM
Clue, Louvre-san: teenage boys have a lot of male hormones. ;) And in Raki's case, his desire to be Clare's manly protector 'awakened'...

Clue: rebelliousness is empowered by hormones, bravery is not. ;D

wickedsmile
November 04, 2011, 11:20 PM
Faintsmile1992:

If you haven't seen the Anime, please watch in the English version that Funimation released. You'll understand Khorr's point of view, one with which I completely agree. That voice just drives me nuts at times.

I don't understand why anyone would have a crush on pre-Pieta Raki. He's a teen-aged boy, probably no more than 15 years of age. Yagi portrayed him as an insecure individual. He does develop into a fine young man, after the Pieta War, most likely as a result of Isley's regal influence. However, insecure he may have been in the early chapters, you had to admire his devotion to Clare. He saved Clare in the "Darkness in Paradise" arc and was willing to sacrifice himself again, to save Clare from Ophelia. There are some admirable qualities in this young man. Most of us who have read Claymore a few times have come to appreciate both, his flaws and strengths.

This is a bit off topic but Zero Phoenix has made some very good points in discussing your assertions. You need to watch what you're referencing as support material. Just because it's from a newspaper or from an on-line source doesn't mean that it has "credibility" or "bares relevance" in support of your material.

Would I be on point if I stated that you might not have a crush on Raki, the character, but you have a great deal of affinity to the qualities of his personality?

faintsmile1992
November 05, 2011, 12:20 AM
Clue: rebelliousness is empowered by hormones, bravery is not. ;D

It wasn't rebelliousness that causes him to risk himself for Clare. ;) Even Ophelia mentioned Raki wasn't crying out as she tortured him, so that Clare could escape.

It was the hormones that made Raki brave. (Because they gave him urges to pair bond and protect his mate, that are related to having sex.)

---------- Post added at 05:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 AM ----------


I don't understand why anyone would have a crush on pre-Pieta Raki. He's a teen-aged boy, probably no more than 15 years of age.

That is why. ;)

Younger boys are hotter when they're devoted to you (but of course you have to catch the right one, so its best to let him make the first move). Didn't I already explain that a good way to make sure an alpha is devoted to you is to catch him young before hes tasted other females, and before he's been conditioned by the ridiculous 'alphas are bad boys, betas are caring' shit in the media to become something more undesirable.

Raki is a knight, before and after the timeskip, and he first becomes hot (as Clare herself recognises) during the Darkness in Paradise story arc.


This is a bit off topic but Zero Phoenix has made some very good points in discussing your assertions. You need to watch what you're referencing as support material. Just because it's from a newspaper or from an on-line source doesn't mean that it has "credibility" or "bares relevance" in support of your material.

The support material fits with male and female psychology, there's a lot of girls who have crushes on boys like Raki and Hope Estheim whilst an awful lot of males hate such characters, or at least don't see whatever it is that attracts girls to them.


Would I be on point if I stated that you might not have a crush on Raki, the character, but you have a great deal of affinity to the qualities of his personality?

Actually I don't, but I do have similarities to Clare and Teresa.

Louvre
November 05, 2011, 01:54 AM
It was the hormones that made Raki brave.

Well, as much as I enjoy these debates, this argument ends my participation here. As the famous meme says: Nothing to do here.

HegemonKhan
November 05, 2011, 03:06 AM
One thing to take into account:

Most males don't have the power within society to be heroes, regardless of whether or not they're cowards and too scared of the consequences, as there will be negative consequences, as our modern society hates heroes, as the heroic male has been nearly made extinct over the many years of human existence. Some males would like to be that heroic "do-good'er" chivalrous knight for females (and anyone for that matter), but society crushes them, even if they get the bravery to accept the punishment by society. Heroism has become the negative label of "Vigilanteism". When did we forfeit over our rights to be heroes, to do the right thing, when did society turn so evil, so oppressive of heroism, so opposed of its members doing the right thing, of us being chivalrous knights. Why are these heroic males now only found in Disney movies, and not the real world's modern society? why have we oppressed the Hero?

Where's the real life Rakis?, as females still desperately yearn and hope for them, for their return to protect and to romantically sweep the ladies off of their feet. Where's the Man, that the woman, the wife, can be so proud of-with?

Where's the "Conan the Barbarian" male?

~"I live, I love, and I slay" (from the new, Conan: the Barbarian, movie)

.

faintsmile1992
November 05, 2011, 03:26 AM
One thing to take into account:

Most males don't have the power within society to be heroes, regardless of whether or not they're cowards and scared of the consequences, as there will be negative consequences, as our modern society hates heroes, as the heroic male has been nearly made extinct over the many years of human existence. Some males would like to be that heroic "do-good'er" chivalrous knight for females (and anyone for that matter), but society crushes them, even if they get the bravery to accept the punishment by society. Heroism has become the negative label of "Vigilanteism". When did we forfeit over our rights to be heroes, to do the right thing, when did society turn so evil, so oppressive of heroism, so opposed of its members doing the right thing?

Yep, the demonisation of alphas as bad boys which in turn has set a standard that encourages alphas to be bad boys, instead of possessing standards. Feminism was promoted by weakly leftist males to encourage their own access to females, and of course male feminists are not good husbands and fathers.

Boys like Raki aren't found in Western pop culture.

wickedsmile
November 05, 2011, 04:44 AM
Faintsmile1992:

Raki risked his life to save Clare, merely for the opportunity at procreation and to ensure the continuation of his lineage? If that was the only motive, then he could have accomplished this with far less trouble.

Raki didn't save Clare because of any sexual desire. He saved Clare because he genuinely loved her and appreciated what she had done back in that rabble of a town, in which he lived. Clare took him in, even when his village ostricized and banished him. He saw how she risked her life to save the humans that treated her with disdain and mistrust.

Hormones absolutely do not make you brave. Your discipline, your tenacity an your will to overcome adversity is what makes you brave, in essence it's the quality of your character.

faintsmile1992
November 05, 2011, 05:10 AM
Faintsmile1992:

Raki risked his life to save Clare, merely for the opportunity at procreation and to ensure the continuation of his lineage? If that was the only motive, then he could have accomplished this with far less trouble.

Raki didn't save Clare because of any sexual desire. He saved Clare because he genuinely loved her and appreciated what she had done back in that rabble of a town, in which he lived. Clare took him in, even when his village ostricized and banished him. He saw how she risked her life to save the humans that treated her with disdain and mistrust.

Well people do not like to accept that love and pair bonding are related to the mating instinct. I know I didn't used to think about boyfriends much, until I got broody. There's a reason why little kids don't behave like teenagers do when they're around the opposite sex.

And you're right, Clare is awesome too, she deserves someone like Raki and they'd be a great mum and dad.


Hormones absolutely do not make you brave. Your discipline, your tenacity an your will to overcome adversity is what makes you brave, in essence it's the quality of your character.

Yep, Raki's manly alpha character *squee*... but testosterone is related to bravery. His bravery proves that Raki is a man!

earthforge
November 07, 2011, 02:52 PM
Oh my. Please, keep civil.

faintsmile, it's not about what is scientifically correlated. Work within the range of facts that the mangaka will most likely consider. I doubt he is looking at testosterone or hormones at all. I mean, really? Because fictional characters are created by people, there is going to be a finite scope.

I agree with wickedsmile's analysis. Raki's reasons for being with Claire were near identical to Claire's reasons for being with Teresa. That's why she even kept him near - he was like her when she was younger, and she doesn't want to make Teresa's mistakes. Although I see a lot of amusing moments where Raki seems to have a crush on Claire, when it comes to when he'll lay down his life for her, it's more because she's like a big sister. Platonic, like Claire and Teresa.

Now, as to what fans see? That's a different kettle of fish entirely. Then you're dealing with who wants to see what. As I said, this manga already has a mainly male demographic because of hot blondes in form-fitting suits kicking monster ass. Whenever Raki appears, it takes away from that and gives more to other fans who might be more interested in relationships (not necessarily romantic ones). (Also, to be fair, Raki's dub voice is like nails on chalkboard - hurts like hell.) Take the bellcurves and there'll be more girls than guys who like Raki.

Khorr
November 07, 2011, 06:17 PM
One thing to take into account:

Most males don't have the power within society to be heroes, regardless of whether or not they're cowards and too scared of the consequences, as there will be negative consequences, as our modern society hates heroes, as the heroic male has been nearly made extinct over the many years of human existence. Some males would like to be that heroic "do-good'er" chivalrous knight for females (and anyone for that matter), but society crushes them, even if they get the bravery to accept the punishment by society. Heroism has become the negative label of "Vigilanteism". When did we forfeit over our rights to be heroes, to do the right thing, when did society turn so evil, so oppressive of heroism, so opposed of its members doing the right thing, of us being chivalrous knights. Why are these heroic males now only found in Disney movies, and not the real world's modern society? why have we oppressed the Hero?

Where's the real life Rakis?, as females still desperately yearn and hope for them, for their return to protect and to romantically sweep the ladies off of their feet. Where's the Man, that the woman, the wife, can be so proud of-with?

Where's the "Conan the Barbarian" male?

~"I live, I love, and I slay" (from the new, Conan: the Barbarian, movie)

.

Well, I'll just say I agree with some parts but mostly no. Personally, when it comes to women. I don't want to be their hero. I want them to be my equals. I think many people also agrees with me on this, both women and men alike. Hypothetically if a girl and I were in a tight jam, say stuck behind enemy line in a war torn country. I don't want her to have to relied on me the entire time to save her. I want her to help me to save us both because two person working togather will greatly improve the odds of survial and if I go down doing a fire fight, I want her to be able to continue and save herself and not froze up.... and maybe call for help once she's safe..... if I'm not dead yet.

Whenever somone talks about not enough heros in the world. I always remember this famous quote by a famous writer in the 1900s that basically very true and to the point.

"Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy." ~ F. Scott Fitzgerald

The point I'm trying to make is, you can't have heroes without tragedies. In the world of Claymore, there are plenty of tragedies that gives opportunities for heroes to appear. In real life, not so much so unless you are living in parts of the world where really really bad things happens all the time, like war, diseases, violent oppression among other things, you're not going to see too many opportunities for people to rise up as heroes in a classical sense.

In todays modern society, the world is moving to a more equal footing for both men and women. Women don't need to be "saved" because they can save themselves in modern society. Also unlike hundreds of years ago in the medieval era, which Claymore seems to resemble. People usually end up dead or worse for trying to be heroes thanks to the invention of personal firearms. In the old days, if you see a few punks beating up another guy, chances are you can fend them off the person if you're big and strong. Today, being big and strong doesn't mean a thing cause any of the punk could be carrying a gun. The risk of being a hero vs the reward of trying to be one are just much higher then the ole days.

Heck even the definition of heroes have been redefined. Modern day heroes arn't defined as the person who goes out to do the "right thing" but the one whom "contribute to society" with everyday work. Teachers, doctors, police, fire fighters and good parents are examples of modern day heroes and they can be both men and women. In the fictional Claymore world, it's much different since it's basically a war zone and the people living there are split between two different roles, heroes whom get stronger or victims that just end up dead without ever doing anything.

In short, there are less classical hero type out there because we have a more peaceful, humane society with greater equality more then ever and I think it's a good thing. Maybe one day, we will have a society that have no need of heroes at all because there would be no preventable would be tragedies, but I seriously doubt it.

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------


Faintsmile1992:

Raki risked his life to save Clare, merely for the opportunity at procreation and to ensure the continuation of his lineage? If that was the only motive, then he could have accomplished this with far less trouble.

Raki didn't save Clare because of any sexual desire. He saved Clare because he genuinely loved her and appreciated what she had done back in that rabble of a town, in which he lived. Clare took him in, even when his village ostricized and banished him. He saw how she risked her life to save the humans that treated her with disdain and mistrust.

Hormones absolutely do not make you brave. Your discipline, your tenacity an your will to overcome adversity is what makes you brave, in essence it's the quality of your character.

I agree, Clare and Raki are like family members, just as Clare and Teresa was. They said so themselves in the manga. Most people would sacrifice a lot to keep their family members safe and go a long way to avenge the death of one.

THM Nindo
November 08, 2011, 01:43 PM
Well, I'm a man and Raki is one of my favorite character.
I guess, since he's really the only male character on the good side, I always kinda identify to him.

So, I never saw him as a "damsel in distress", but as a boy that would grow up to become strong, as he would want to become Clare's protector.

You can clearly understand that with what he tell her before leaving:
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29345-20/claymore/chapter-34.html

And it seems that he indeed became very strong, with the help of Isley.

And he's known Priscillia as well, so there's no doubt that he will be important in the story.
He might even be forced to choose between Clare and Priscillia!!

Anyway, I'm eager to see what he will do when he see Clare again.

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------


I agree, Clare and Raki are like family members, just as Clare and Teresa was. They said so themselves in the manga. Most people would sacrifice a lot to keep their family members safe and go a long way to avenge the death of one.

I think there's more to it than that.
Clare might have liked Raki like a little brother, but I get the feeling that Raki had feelings for her.

And, we can't just forget about the fact that they kissed right before she order him to leave:
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29345-21/claymore/chapter-34.html

HegemonKhan
November 08, 2011, 10:01 PM
Raki saw Clare as a big sister, and Clare saw Raki as herself when she was with Teresa, wanting to become like Teresa by caring for Raki, as Teresa had for her.

However, Raki's love and concern-protection of-for Clare, was quickly causing Clare to develop romantic feelings for Raki.

Clare first took notice of it in Rabona, where Raki protected Clare from Cid+Galk, especially Cid's advances upon Clare (ending with Raki kicking Cid in the "groin"). Also, not to mention how Raki stayed by Clare's bedside, as she was unconscious from her first encounter with the SNY. And lastly in the cathedral arc, was obviously Raki protecting Clare from execution by Galk, shield her from decapitation with his own body, gladly willing to die with Clare, he loved her like Romeo&Juliet, if Clare was to die, he'd have to die too (this is also seen by especially Riful and Dauf, but they aren't the only ones either: Alicia+Beth, Deneve+Helen, and etc). Oops, I forgot to mention... we can arguably say that Clare might have already been lewdly-romantically flirting with Raki, by mentioning her "talents", of being able to go from an aristocratic noblewoman to a flirtatious prostitute, and then directly offering to show her flirtatious prostitute's smile to raki... Does this show that Clare already have the "hots" for Raki, offering to show her seductive smile... and heck maybe even was willing-interested in doing more as well... cough cough...

Next we see it with Raki's concern for Clare when she went on the Lido "Spiderman" male AB mission, with Clare's cutely-sweet-loving light punch to Raki's forehead.

Of course then we got the Ophelia battle, with Raki's "Monty Python's defending of Clare from Opehlia, Tis but a flesh wound, you're puny attacks don't even make me itch, you *itch Ophelia!"

Clare couldn't take it anymore, Raki was too perfect, what a hunk! "Emotions of love and romance, flooding out of control, Clare orders Raki to hug her, hug her closely, smothering his face against her chest, yes, that feels good, mmm, and you can see from the suggestive satisfied and lurid smile-smirk on her face."

Also, at the same time, Raki was finally seeing her as a beautiful woman, and not merely a big sister.

Raki, finally has his perberty/hormones kicking in, seeing Clare as a lovely young lady and not a big sister, as seen by his gulping and slight blushing at being ordered to hug her, pressing his face against her soft bosom. Yes, Raki was having his own romantic feelings, timid and shy, in this new feeling of romantic interest, "Your.. your.. asking me to hug you, asking me to press my face against your chest... gulp...I... I... I'm...not.. ready... for this.. gulp... cause I like you... I REALLY like you... you know... romantically like you... Clare... gulp".

Raki's love is proven absolute for Clare, when he's traveling with Priscilla, seeking out his love, CLARE. While Priscilla was merely seen by Raki as a monster-girl to try to help out, while he could do so. We also do see Raki faithfully, pushing away Priscilla and her advances when he was with Isley training. Oh, if only Clare new just how perfect a Man, her Raki was !!! Or, maybe she does already know, he's perfect - he'd never cheat on her, hehe.

faintsmile1992
November 09, 2011, 01:20 AM
HK has said it so perfectly, except that you'll remember she kept trying to ditch Raki-chan even as she let him travel around with her, until the eents in the Darkness in Paradise arc, where he proved himself both manly and genuinely useful. HK-sama left that bit out, and he should remember that Raki says Clare smiles for the very first time during that arc, when she gives one of those subtle kuudere smiles that mean so much. ;)

As a kid, Clare knew how to use Teresa and turn a situation to her own advantage, so I'm sure she was testing if Raki was old enough to make the first move yet when she offered to smile like a prostitute for him.

wickedsmile
November 12, 2011, 03:10 AM
Faintsmile1992:


I find myself disgreeing with your analysis of thes early chapters. You're losing focus of the overall story by examining individual events without considering its implications on past or future events in the storyline. The beginning chapters that introduce us to Clare and Raki naturally lead up and through Teresa of the Faint Smile. By the beginning of The Slashers arc, you should have realized the parallels between Clare/Raki and Teresa/Clare. Teresa was to Clare what Clare was to Raki. Clare NEVER EVER used Teresa nor did Raki EVER use Clare. All were losts souls that found comfort in each other. Teresa became mother to Clare. For a woman dying ot loneliness, to suddenly be gifted with a child must have been a blessing from the God(s) of Rabona. Likewise for Clare, who was orphaned for so long, to finally have someone to call mother again would have lifted a overwhelming veil of despair.

Did Raki have a crush on Clare, by his reactions to Cid kissing Clare, I would assume that he had one. That's a far cry from the sexual connotations that you depict from either Clare or Raki.

faintsmile1992
November 12, 2011, 06:43 AM
Faintsmile1992:


I find myself disgreeing with your analysis of thes early chapters. You're losing focus of the overall story by examining individual events without considering its implications on past or future events in the storyline. The beginning chapters that introduce us to Clare and Raki naturally lead up and through Teresa of the Faint Smile.

Yep, and I don't see how anyone can miss that, however there are differences as well as similarities.


By the beginning of The Slashers arc, you should have realized the parallels between Clare/Raki and Teresa/Clare. Teresa was to Clare what Clare was to Raki. Clare NEVER EVER used Teresa nor did Raki EVER use Clare. All were losts souls that found comfort in each other. Teresa became mother to Clare. For a woman dying ot loneliness, to suddenly be gifted with a child must have been a blessing from the God(s) of Rabona. Likewise for Clare, who was orphaned for so long, to finally have someone to call mother again would have lifted a overwhelming veil of despair.

People use one another all the time but they don't like to think about it that way. Raki, Clare and Teresa all had instinctual desires to be fulfilled, and they fulfilled these needs in one another. You'll notice the desires involved were different for Teresa and Clare and the similarity is the presence of a desire at all, and that Clare and Raki were initially pushed away. Teresa had maternal instincts and teenage Clare starts developing mating instincts when she's around Raki once he enters adolescence himself. Until the Darkness in Paradise arc, she tries to abandon him. And she only gets truly attached to Raki as he becomes adolescent.


Did Raki have a crush on Clare, by his reactions to Cid kissing Clare, I would assume that he had one. That's a far cry from the sexual connotations that you depict from either Clare or Raki.

If you can't pick up on the subtexts that exist between Raki and Clare, and there' a lot of wierd sexual themes and innuendo in Claymore, then you are very innocent indeed. Even the female AB that says Raki smells good is a toothed vagina monster, and the change in body odour associated with puberty has a place in Japanese culture (ie it means that girls are becoming attracted to Takkun in FLCL).

wickedsmile
November 13, 2011, 02:29 AM
Faintsmile1992:

I still disagree with you in regards to Clare attempting to leave Raki. Could you please elaborate with specific examples from the Darkness in Paradise arc? If anything, I found that their bond grew stronger through out the chapter. If you're referring to Clare's request of Father Vincent sheltering Raki, then you error in your thinking. Clare knew that she could die on this mission. She sought to ensure Raki's future, since he had none other on whom depend.

You get the sense that Clare is growing quite fond of Raki by the end of Darkness in Paradise. Raki throwing himself onto her to prevent her from awakening and staying by her side as she lay on her death bed touched Clare deeply. She realized how much Raki cared for her. Raki allowed Clare to open herself emotionally. Do they care for each other by this time? They absolutely do. However, there isn't anything in the graphics or in the text to imply a sexual relationship or even the beginning of one. They do imply the formation of a very strong and heart warming friendship.

In the Endless Gravestones arc, you do see Clare kissing Raki. If you want to imply the revelation of Clare's amorous feelings for Raki, then I won't disgree with you there. Sex is a natural progression of such a relationship. If you want to impose real life psychology at this point and say that Clare "may" have wanted sex, then perhaps you're right. Whether it has relevance to the Claymore story, I don't believe it has.

Khorr
November 13, 2011, 10:49 AM
Faintsmile1992:
In the Endless Gravestones arc, you do see Clare kissing Raki. If you want to imply the revelation of Clare's amorous feelings for Raki, then I won't disgree with you there. Sex is a natural progression of such a relationship. If you want to impose real life psychology at this point and say that Clare "may" have wanted sex, then perhaps you're right. Whether it has relevance to the Claymore story, I don't believe it has.

I agree with you there. Personally when it comes to fiction in both books and movies, I try not to debunk it using real life law, physics, or psychology when I'm trying to enjoy it. Most of the times, I find real life facts just does not apply to fiction, especially manga. Like child Clare falling off from that cliff without sustaning any injuries. In short Claymore is purely fiction and as such only "anime physics" and "anime psychology" applies. How Clare and Raki feel about each other sexually, I think only Yagi himself can explain that one. Who knows, maybe he just draw it in because he think people would like to see them kiss.

faintsmile1992
November 13, 2011, 12:43 PM
Actually part of the appeal of Claymore is the realistic psychology of the characters. Besides my crush on Raki and the general coolness of Claymore in general, Claymore is actually relevant to my life.

HegemonKhan
November 13, 2011, 03:59 PM
Wickedsmile is correct, as we don't know when the "desired beautiful girl" over "big sister" occured with Raki, until the hugging escape from Ophelia.

As Raki could still simply care, loving, Clare as his "big sister".

there's a huge difference between love (like between siblings, parent-child, family including pets, and friends) and lust (romantic/sexual physically intimacy or love).

----------------

actually now that I'm thinking about it... Wickedsmile is really correct... as if Raki was interested in Clare as a beautiful girl... he (well most guys would anyways) would gladly see that "flirtatious smile", and probably want to "find a room", as that seems to be Clare's wanting... based on the way she is behaving towards Raki... hehe :D

notice his response to her "flirtatious smile" vs his response to her "hug me close"

faintsmile1992
November 13, 2011, 06:11 PM
HK, between that flirtation and the spacing of the beds in the hotel room they shared, its obvious to me that Clare was trying to get Raki to make the first move to prove to her that he's worth the effort. Raki was definitely sexually attracted to Clare by the age he is in Rabona, or he wouldn't have got so cute and flustered. :amuse

He was just nervous because he was unsure about his new feelings and because Clare was treating him differently. And because he adores her so much he doesn't want to do anything wrong around the girl he loves...

Although of course, he has been living with Clare like a big sister, but that just makes the pairing hotter lol... why should he see her as one or the other?

ClaFanN1
March 25, 2012, 07:10 AM
Raki lacks something shinji from Evangelion has: A giant EVA :D

Ryus
March 25, 2012, 09:43 AM
Someone get ~clarakiss from animesuki over her... something tells me this thread would be so much more amusing with her here backing upfaintsmile that Raki is the lead character is more popular with female fans.

For the record I hate anime raki for becoming a whinny brat like shinji from NGE however manga Raki is for the most part a very good charactet and has been very badass of late, even though he has no powers and cant kill anyone due to his blunt sword (personally though I wish Roxanne and Cassandra never went at it and instead Roxanne wentto steal Raftelas power and bumped into Raki and found his almost inhuman fighting skills even more interesting but couldnt figure out how/why he was so good, since the plot since Cassandra couldnt speak without saying shit every sentence has become so boring I want Roxanna (or hell even Priscilla or Clare) just to run her through to get her have some new dialog).

KaoruAoiShiho
March 25, 2012, 10:39 AM
Who doesn't like Raki lol. Raki is awesome, for both boys and girls.

faintsmile1992
March 25, 2012, 11:37 AM
And extremely hot! You know what Stephanie Young said in the Funi commentaries! :)

Claymore1
March 25, 2012, 04:03 PM
I am sure that there are a lot of feminists that don't like Raki because he one of the only important male characters in the story. So i don't think that it depends just on gender.

I personally always liked Raki. Even when he was an annoying little kid.

faintsmile1992
March 25, 2012, 04:10 PM
He definitely wasn't annoying when he was a little taller and protecting Clare. ;)

claremore
March 25, 2012, 11:20 PM
The foundation of Raki and Clare's relationship was Raki having recognized Clare's benevolence even though she didn't outwardly express it. Is this not correct? As for Raki I don't think he's a great character but he's decent
(He's definitely not the worst character in the series in my opinion. That would be Roxanne :D)

faintsmile1992
March 26, 2012, 02:43 AM
Well Raki saw Clare as lonely, and tried to befriend her. Probably she would have killed Raki at first with that sword, if it weren't for knowing Teresa's punishment - she really hates humans. At first her attitude's more tolerance than benevolence, aided by her projection because of her similar past, she doesn't visibly enjoy his presence around her and attempts to dump him in villages.

There's a reason why Clare smiles at Raki for the first time in Rabona, though he's taller by then so they've been travelling together for some time, its only after he began defending her, and becoming sexually attractive, that she smiles.

gherkin
April 04, 2012, 02:09 PM
All in all, I never hated Raki, but as a kid he talked too much. I dislike that in all males, young & old.

As an adult i flat out like him. He's got a healing quality to his liberally applied foolish smile & can adequately serve to be a significant role player in the future.

His character has been consistent, and like all Claymore characters he is presented as a fallible personality with an upside. That he isn't perfect is what makes him (& all Claymore characters) realistic.

As a kid, this was more obvious than it is yet as an adult. When he was confronted by Helen, he overextended himself foolishly (talked too much,) vs Cid & Galk, he did the same. He then had that scene when he tries to take only the money he needs to ensure Claire would return when she said she would, which was charming, and he was charming again trying not to distract Claire in his contest vs Ophelia. So he had annoying moments & Charming moments as a kid.

As an adult He's mostly been very patient, happy & hasn't presented any real downside to his personality, but I suspect he isn't that bright & may get himself into trouble in the future. I don't agree that his role is to play the Damsel in distress, he has before vs the warrior impersonating Yoma, & I think he will play that role again, but the nature of his character seems to be a humanizing element, not a victim. I suspect he will play a role of ambassador between the continents Warriors & Civilians in the coming chapters & not just set up camp outside the Yoki Wad while playing love songs through a boom box until Clare emerges.

ClaFanN1
April 09, 2012, 11:17 AM
Where are the Raki fangirls? <.< >.>

Ozelot
April 11, 2012, 01:05 PM
In the beginning i didn´t lioke him because he was always so whinny, but now as the Story goes on i have the feeling that he is really Growing up and becoming a good man. I think a girl should not fall in love with the whinny Raki of the Beginnig, but the Mature Raki of the End... Just my cents. And i don´t hate Raki, never did. He always had Potential.

THM Nindo
August 05, 2012, 04:47 PM
So, what did you guys thought of Raki's crying in the last chapter?

I must say, that I wasn't as disappointed as many other, but it certainly wasn't really manly...
Despite becoming a man and a warrior, Raki is still only a boy in love when in front of Clare.

I must say, though, I'm really pleased that they are finally reunited.
I've been waiting for that a long time.

To me, it seems like Raki is the only one that kinda helped develop Clare's character as something else than a woman in seek of revenge.
I can't wait to see how their relationship will evolve, especially that they have now passed the biggest challenge (the "scar").

Although, I think that Clare might be a little pissed off when she learned that Raki has been friend with her sworn enemy all along!
In any case, it seems like the main plot is finally coming back!

ClaFanN1
August 05, 2012, 07:10 PM
Raki is for Clare what Naruto is for hinata: a total mismatch.

faintsmile1992
August 05, 2012, 07:32 PM
I must say, that I wasn't as disappointed as many other, but it certainly wasn't really manly...
Despite becoming a man and a warrior, Raki is still only a boy in love when in front of Clare.So were medieval knights for their damsels. ;)


Although, I think that Clare might be a little pissed off when she learned that Raki has been friend with her sworn enemy all along!
In any case, it seems like the main plot is finally coming back!Yep, here come the interesting bit. ;)

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 AM ----------


Raki is for Clare what Naruto is for hinata: a total mismatch.You forget that opposites attract. ;) And not that opposite in all ways, they share for example the same impulsive streak.

Raki supplies Clare with the companionship and care she's been missing out on, and without him around she goes off the rails.

Lots of us think they're made for one another. ;)

They're cute together.

ClaFanN1
August 05, 2012, 08:32 PM
Sorry, I don't know how girls think, that only god knows :)

Claymore1
August 05, 2012, 09:06 PM
Raki and Clare belong together, just like Naruto and Hinata belong together :XD

faintsmile1992
August 05, 2012, 09:48 PM
Sorry, I don't know how girls think, that only god knows :)

Observe Raki and find out. Boys like Raki and Allen Walker are popular with female fans, why do you think that is? ;)

zimbardo
August 05, 2012, 10:55 PM
Observe Raki and find out. Boys like Raki and Allen Walker are popular with female fans, why do you think that is? ;)

Is it the eyes?

faintsmile1992
August 06, 2012, 12:09 AM
Is it the eyes?

Its their personalities.

Ancy
August 06, 2012, 06:56 AM
So, why did you guys thought of Raki's crying in the last chapter?

I assume that many people hate Raki just because he's crying. Indeed, Yagi exaggerated with portraying him as a cry-baby, yet that's a part of his character development. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong seeing an emotional adult Raki who is reunited with the woman he's mirroring. However, this crying attitude will tick off many people who believe that big boys should not cry. But the truth of the matter is that men Do cry, even though our society considers it a tabu subject.

zimbardo
August 07, 2012, 12:20 AM
I assume that many people hate Raki just because he's crying. Indeed, Yagi exaggerated with portraying him as a cry-baby, yet that's a part of his character development. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong seeing an emotional adult Raki who is reunited with the woman he's mirroring. However, this crying attitude will tick off many people who believe that big boys should not cry. But the truth of the matter is that men Do cry, even though our society consider it a tabu subject.

I thought the reunion was very well handled. Although I half didn't want Claire to return so soon, but rather for her to be released upon Cassandras arrival. I thought the tears of joy for Raki, and the hint of tears in Claire's eyes, were very touching considering how long they have been apart.
It was a nice, subtle, reminder of how much they care for each other.
A nice respite before the sh*t hits the fan and Cassandra arrives...

claremore
August 07, 2012, 04:10 PM
If raki wasn't crying like that, he wouldn't be the same raki. Claire probably wouldn't have recognized him.That's just how he is. :hee

BleachFan2010
August 16, 2012, 07:29 AM
I dont mind Raki as a character, yeah he crys and stuff but thats who he is. I mean whou wouldn't cry like him after been reunited with someone after youve been searching for seven years? She was the one who took him in after her lost his family to a Yoma and he was with her for a while but was seperated by her for seven years and now hes found her? his reation was normal XD

ClaFanN1
August 26, 2012, 09:07 AM
Raki will never cry again :D
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/239/5/1/hacked_by_clafann1-d5clgyr.jpg

Utsune
February 15, 2013, 04:55 AM
Despite being a somewhat old thread, I'm not sorry for digging it back up at all :D

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/utsune/rakicool_zps39f1eae7.jpg

I don't think I have seen a cooler panel than this in 17+ years worth of manga-reading. If I were a girl I might just fall in love, haha.
Secondary thought is, why can't I say something amazingly cool such as this :(

Brother Coa
February 15, 2013, 06:26 AM
Secondary thought is, why can't I say something amazingly cool such as this :(

You can, the only difference would be that you would hold M-16 instead of broadsword ;)

Utsune
February 15, 2013, 07:22 AM
You can, the only difference would be that you would hold M-16 instead of broadsword ;)

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/utsune/rakicoolreplace_zps04234655.jpg

Though it took 5 minutes, I still have way too much free time.

I think the sword is more imposing though :P

Brother Coa
February 15, 2013, 10:07 AM
I think the sword is more imposing though :P

I don't know about that. Here we have:
-a huge sword that can slice me in half in a second.
-a gun that can hit me from 800 meters with ammunition that was designed to rip apart my internal organs once it hits me. A slow and painful death unless I am hit directly in head, heart or major artery.

In case of scarier and more imposing weapons guns always beat swords.

Utsune
February 15, 2013, 11:53 AM
Paah, if Raki were using M-16 I don't think he'll be as attractive in his atheletic display to the female population. Look at him fighting those MiB during the rebellion saving all those girls. Aaand he wouldn't be able to say all those cool things he was saying that granted him a full page in Yagi's best art, haha :D
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u432/utsune/25_zps8ab5bd27.jpg

faintsmile1992
February 19, 2013, 01:59 PM
He's awesome and always was, he was hotter before though cause I prefer 'em like 12-14 and eager to please. My present boyfriends a bit older than that but he's actually very similar. I'm kind of like Clare too IRL even though I call myself faintsmile. (My real name is Clare too, so guess why I first watched and read Claymore lol.)

Anyway the female fandom for boys like Raki or Allen Walker confirms what girls go for isn't the 'bad boy' traits in itself, but things they share with 'bad boys' like confidence. People think men are either nice guy betas or bad boy alphas but that isn't the case, alphas are protectors and betas are providers. If you're a fairly independant omega female like me then the protective alpha is better, and the best way to find an alpha is to find one as young as possible. And the best thing to do then would be to have him knock you up once you're sure he's in love to secure the relationship.

And boys evaluate one another differently to the way girls do to check for threats to their own sexual monopoly over females, which is why boys saw pre-timeskip Raki as a little kid and a crybaby, whilst girls saw devotion and the emergence of extremely manly protective traits when he started protecting Clare. Its all about the way people interpret others and its why the different ways people see the same character is interesting.

Utsune
February 20, 2013, 01:35 PM
He's awesome and always was, he was hotter before though cause I prefer 'em like 12-14 and eager to please. My present boyfriends a bit older than that but he's actually very similar. I'm kind of like Clare too IRL even though I call myself faintsmile. (My real name is Clare too, so guess why I first watched and read Claymore lol.)

Anyway the female fandom for boys like Raki or Allen Walker confirms what girls go for isn't the 'bad boy' traits in itself, but things they share with 'bad boys' like confidence. People think men are either nice guy betas or bad boy alphas but that isn't the case, alphas are protectors and betas are providers. If you're a fairly independant omega female like me then the protective alpha is better, and the best way to find an alpha is to find one as young as possible. And the best thing to do then would be to have him knock you up once you're sure he's in love to secure the relationship.

And boys evaluate one another differently to the way girls do to check for threats to their own sexual monopoly over females, which is why boys saw pre-timeskip Raki as a little kid and a crybaby, whilst girls saw devotion and the emergence of extremely manly protective traits when he started protecting Clare. Its all about the way people interpret others and its why the different ways people see the same character is interesting.

I can't help but to grin at all the coincidence you've nailed, haha :D
Yes you've put it extremely well, though I'm starting to get scared at the thought of being able to totally understand and agree with what you're saying...
...could I be a girl? D:

Brother Coa
February 20, 2013, 01:47 PM
I can't help but to grin at all the coincidence you've nailed, haha :D
Yes you've put it extremely well, though I'm starting to get scared at the thought of being able to totally understand and agree with what you're saying...
...could I be a girl? D:

Not really, it all comes down to how do you think and feel.
I feel the same for Raki when I first saw him - a poor fellow that lost everything and in need of someone to take care of him in the meantime.
I felt the same for Clare, a poor girl who gave even her Humanity to protect Humans and to reach her goal. She needed someone to take are of her too and to show her that there is more in life then simple revenge - and Raki and her comrades showed her that.
Off course the most people saw two things in Clare - how badass she is with her sword and how large breast she have ( my friend who is deeply religious by the way commented about Clare's breast when he first saw her ). In the end it really comes to individual and how we feel when it comes to that.

Utsune
February 20, 2013, 01:55 PM
Not really, it all comes down to how do you think and feel.
I feel the same for Raki when I first saw him - a poor fellow that lost everything and in need of someone to take care of him in the meantime.
I felt the same for Clare, a poor girl who gave even her Humanity to protect Humans and to reach her goal. She needed someone to take are of her too and to show her that there is more in life then simple revenge - and Raki and her comrades showed her that.
Off course the most people saw two things in Clare - how badass she is with her sword and how large breast she have ( my friend who is deeply religious by the way commented about Clare's breast when he first saw her ). In the end it really comes to individual and how we feel when it comes to that.

Sorry what? Breasts?







[/JOKE]

But yes Brother Coa you're absolutely right. Although when it comes down to it, it is all in line with the shounen theme, no matter how 'typical' this theme may be, I still find it admirable to learn from. What's more, I personally don't find anything wrong with how Yagi-sensei presented Raki's character. In fact, I really really like him. As with many characters in the series, he has his own cool moment, which literally makes me say "damn, that's too damn cool" in my seat :P

Whirlzap
February 21, 2013, 08:49 PM
Not really, it all comes down to how do you think and feel.
I feel the same for Raki when I first saw him - a poor fellow that lost everything and in need of someone to take care of him in the meantime.
I felt the same for Clare, a poor girl who gave even her Humanity to protect Humans and to reach her goal. She needed someone to take are of her too and to show her that there is more in life then simple revenge - and Raki and her comrades showed her that.
Off course the most people saw two things in Clare - how badass she is with her sword and how large breast she have ( my friend who is deeply religious by the way commented about Clare's breast when he first saw her ). In the end it really comes to individual and how we feel when it comes to that.

I wanted to clarify on the bolded statement.
The only reason Clare became a Claymore was to kill Priscilla, as revenge for the only one she did care about, which was Teresa.
Note she initially told Raki that her reason for killing the Yoma was simply to finish a "job", not to provide revenge for him.
However, as her story continues, Clare gradually develops some more feelings of compassion that allows her personality to stray away from that of the typical Claymore: cold-hearted, emotionless, silver-eyed killers, or so the general population of humans dub them.

I agree that most people generally view Clare and pretty much all the Claymores as "sexy", and often are much more aware of their breasts and sexual properties rather than the more evasive personality and story plot.
But then again, I'd say that's the reason these forums are here; for people who are more concerned about character development and plot analysis rather than breasts and cute faces within the manga/anime.
Sadly, however, I'm pretty sure the breasts and whatsoever eye candy that Yagi drew in was simply an incentive to lure anime-lovers into loving this anime.
Essentially, this anime is directed for an audience of ages 12-18, assuming the typical interests of society.
Even more so, it's quite likely that 45% of the current audience all over Korea/Japan/scan-lated America were lured by the breasts and "sexy Claymore women", another 45% for the medieval bad-ass Claymore with claymore (the sword/weapon) story, and then 10% with genuine interest in such an intricate plot.
(Perhaps a hint of sarcasm there haha xD).

But referring more to the larger discussion, it's much likely that girls will love Raki, since by the American stereotype, boys think teen girls are "hot and sexy", girls think little or teen boys are "cute and handsome".
So of course it makes sense that girls think Raki-"chan" is pretty awesome. (sexappeal)
Finally, you have to consider how age is factored into this.
I'm sure the cuteness of Raki vanishes and becomes more handsome-fall-in-love after the seven year time skip.

If all males were loved, why isn't Isley pounced on by so many fangirls instead of having his Awakened Body being continually exclaimed as "sick!", "epic!", "likeabaws!" by boys who are combat-crazy?

Brother Coa
February 21, 2013, 09:11 PM
The only reason Clare became a Claymore was to kill Priscilla, as revenge for the only one she did care about, which was Teresa.
Note she initially told Raki that her reason for killing the Yoma was simply to finish a "job", not to provide revenge for him.
However, as her story continues, Clare gradually develops some more feelings of compassion that allows her personality to stray away from that of the typical Claymore: cold-hearted, emotionless, silver-eyed killers, or so the general population of humans dub them.


Even if her main goal was to kill Priscilla ( and by that it is primary reason why she became Claymore ) she also suffered pain that cannot be described ( her past is full of pain ) and as we have seen by her personality one more reason why she joined is so that nobody have to feel that pain that she feel.
And even at the beginning she was out of the ordinary and we could see that she cared about Humans even if her primary goal was revenge. You can see that in chapter 2 where she decide to go on ahead so that few more lives could be saved.
My point was: yes, she joined mostly because of revenge but partially she joined to protect Humans form misfortune that she had to go trough.

Ancy
February 22, 2013, 06:53 AM
But referring more to the larger discussion, it's much likely that girls will love Raki, since by the American stereotype, boys think teen girls are "hot and sexy", girls think little or teen boys are "cute and handsome".
So of course it makes sense that girls think Raki-"chan" is pretty awesome. (sexappeal)
Finally, you have to consider how age is factored into this.
I'm sure the cuteness of Raki vanishes and becomes more handsome-fall-in-love after the seven year time skip.

I'm not sure whether sex appeal is the exact statement to describe how the female fandom sees Raki. Indeed, he is as a pretty awesome character, not because of his stagerring cuteness or sex appeal, but rather because of his loyalty and unconditional friendship. Heck, he has been there for Clare more than anyone else (well with the exception of Teresa). Raki is not the type trying to get under Clare's clothes in order to touch her breasts or whatnot :lmao; he's the type trying to understand her soul :zomg. Maybe that's the reason Clare (and any other female fan) felt attracted to him.

Besides, even if he's weak, Raki won't hold back from protecting Clare. He knows he is a mere human and his power is non-existent when compared to that of Ophelia, for example; yet, he's determined to protect the ones he loves. Although, he's been saved on numerous occasion and he's a crybaby, nobody can deny that Raki is brave, fearless. I don't know how many teens, after meeting an odd person (Clare, in the beginning of the manga), will go up to her and start a friendly conversation. Maybe, some of you might point out that's pure stupidity. It might be true. But then again...aren't courageous people stupid to some extent?

Lastly, I appreciate Raki's fascination with the unknown and his desire to become stronger (overcoming his weaknesses and enhancing physical strength). Besides, a curious mind ready to explore the unknown is a major turn on for women (at least for me ~ if other ladies around here think the opposite, please feel free to chip in :3c ~)

Whirlzap
February 22, 2013, 04:02 PM
Even if her main goal was to kill Priscilla ( and by that it is primary reason why she became Claymore ) she also suffered pain that cannot be described ( her past is full of pain ) and as we have seen by her personality one more reason why she joined is so that nobody have to feel that pain that she feel.
And even at the beginning she was out of the ordinary and we could see that she cared about Humans even if her primary goal was revenge. You can see that in chapter 2 where she decide to go on ahead so that few more lives could be saved.
My point was: yes, she joined mostly because of revenge but partially she joined to protect Humans form misfortune that she had to go trough.

I concur.
Even more so, all the other Claymores who were part of Clare's friendship circle generally had a post-determined reason for becoming a Claymore.
Clare is the first girl who willingly submitted to becoming a Claymore, but this was because she had pre-determined reasons for doing so.
However, I do recall her friend Elena saying that becoming a Claymore would make her stronger, or so she thought.
After the operation and transformation into a Claymore, it seems that the orphan girls each had a specific and perhaps even common reason to keep fighting and doing their duty.
While some reasons are directly mentioned, others are not.
Some of the more obvious reasons include Alicia and Beth's mindless duty to keep training hard and practicing their Soul Link in order to conquer the Abyssal Ones, Deneve's goal to "live on", Ophelia's goal to slay Priscilla, Teresa's betrayal for Clare, and Undine's goal to remember her friend through her dual wield combat style.
A less opaque motivation can be Isley's brief but meaningful and significant short-lived temporary family; he mentioned that he wanted only just some more time to live with his makeshift "kin", and thus sent away Raki and Priscilla in order to take on the Abyssal Feeders alone.


My point....
So, what's Raki's goal?
Of course it all makes sense now.
"To live on and protect Clare" is Raki's solid goal, as his gregarious personality proclaims more than often throughout the manga.
Perhaps this ultimately factors into why so many girls love Raki; it's a direct mirror of Teresa's promise to Clare (and everyone loved Teresa so much because of that), only it was never made such an apparent theme as the former.
Everyone loves a hero/heroine, and Raki might just be the one in the eyes of those fangurls.

@Ancy:
Raki's willingness to train with former number 1 Claymore Isley is similar to that of the Ghosts' strenuous training to extremes.
Both are motivated by the common desire to become stronger and achieve their goals.
For Raki, again, it is to become strong enough to protect Clare instead of being protected by her.
(Notice how the manga closely shadows this statement when they have Raki slay a Yoma after the seven year timeskip.
When the manga originally began, Raki was unable to get revenge for his parents and had to rely on Clare to slay the Yoma.
And perhaps note where Raki slayed the Yoma? In his birthtown of course. The manga seemingly wishes to convey that after the seven year timeskip, Raki has become a much more successful person, and that his motivation ultimately paid off in the slaying of the Yoma.
(laughs at Priscilla in that chapter)

I also agree that Raki had such a genuine interest in Clare and the Claymores.
And I also want to note that Raki was never interested because Clare was a female; when Clare came in, he was surprised to see that the Claymore was a woman, and never knew that all Claymores were women.
Also notice how all the townsfolk called Clare a "monster" and were terrified when she glanced over to them. Unlike such townsfolk, Raki was an extremely curious and keen boy, which is typical of the pre-teen child (especially a boy).
All these qualities allowed Raki to become associated with Clare and develop such a strong bond.


In terms of the anime;
It seems like the hate for Raki is because he gets in the way very often.
It seems like an all-out battle between evil and good as well.
There is complete sympathy for Teresa and Clare, yet no sympathy for Priscilla.
Now Raki is stuck here in the middle. Unfortunately, so many people hate on Priscilla to even attempt to begin understanding the rather very strong bond developed between Raki and her as well.
So when Raki intervenes right before Clare is about to kill Priscilla in Episode 26 of the Anime, the strong affection and admiration that the biased audience has for Clare obviously morphs their view of Raki into something immature, stupid, and hindering.
And since that is the nature of humans; to always root for good and barely sympathize with the evil, at least when we are not forced to do so by the author/director, the typical audience does not regard Priscilla's extremely troubled past at all.
Therefore, the audience might regard Raki as simply being "evil" for developing such a deep relationship with Priscilla as well.

And from there we can see where all that "1h8uRakee!!!!11!" comes from.

faintsmile1992
February 24, 2013, 02:34 AM
Just to add a brief comment.

Isley looks a little too much like Galatea for many of us to lust over. ;)

Whilst Clare is grateful to have Raki. Its up to you whether you interpret that as 'true love', to me it seemed purer and hotter when they were obviously attracted in Rabona because their relationship doesn't have the sentimental nonsense.

Someone like Clare has a combination of abusive life history and constitutional aloofness that makes her hard to identify with. Sort of like if Haruhi Suzumiya had been abused since childhood and yet recieved enough kindness in time to develop something more like normal empathy, before having that source of kindness snatched away by fate - with the emphasis upon 'more like'. She will always be odd and her emotions will be weird, even to other Claymores. So there's no higher emotion there only a feeling of gratitude, attachment issues to certain individuals, and loneliness without a desire for 'normal' friendships or inclusion the way most people would feel. She can only acquire feelings of gratitude for another, very grudgingly.

You can compare Clare's loneliness to Rorschach's and, viewed in that way, Yagi does a very good job of portraying her as a vulnerable teenage girl the audience can sympathise with. Someone like her is extremely tough to portray sensitively, especially while anvilling the point she could erupt into a monster at any time, because the explosive temper is always just under the surface.

Anyways the attraction isn't that he's 'the type trying to understand her soul' - he just accepts her as she is, as you would a cat. There's a difference.

---------- Post added at 07:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ----------


I can't help but to grin at all the coincidence you've nailed, haha :D
Yes you've put it extremely well, though I'm starting to get scared at the thought of being able to totally understand and agree with what you're saying...
...could I be a girl? D:How pretty are ya in a dress. ;)

But seriously if you 'got' what girls like, you should be good at getting and holding onto girls yourself.

Ancy
February 24, 2013, 01:36 PM
Anyways the attraction isn't that he's 'the type trying to understand her soul' - he just accepts her as she is, as you would a cat. There's a difference.

The statement above does not take into consideration that Raki was the only person who helped Clare (TWICE) return to her normal state (thanks to Raki, Clare did not fully awaken ~Rabona scene. On top of that he helped her emerge from the blob). I would say that those specific actions require more than acceptance. I would even go further and state that it requires a special connection (something like soul link).

It's true that Clare is an introvert person, but that does not mean she is incapable of higher emotions or feelings (if that's the case why the heck is she trying to kill Priscilla, or searched for Raki for SEVEN YEARS??). What I'm trying to say here is that Clare experiences normal feelings, but she's just not showing them as normal people or other Claymores would do.

On a different note ~ to be honest, I accept and love my cat deeply, but I'm certain that her meows won't turn me back when I'm about to die. :oh

@Whirlzap. Indeed, Raki is the direct mirror of Teresa's promise to Clare. I couldn't have said it better myself.

faintsmile1992
February 24, 2013, 03:12 PM
It's true that Clare is an introvert person, but that does not mean she is incapable of higher emotions or feelings (if that's the case why the heck is she trying to kill Priscilla, or searched for Raki for SEVEN YEARS??). What I'm trying to say here is that Clare experiences normal feelings, but she's just not showing them as normal people or other Claymores would do.Yea she's coldhearted, which in psychology that means she feels but doesn't show them, rather than being a synonym for callousness as most people might use the word (callousness is an impairment in recognising emotions at the affective level). The thing about 'higher emotions' is about what she feels and her self-awareness. She watches but she presumably doesn't 'get' what she sees.

Wanting to destroy one's enemies, wanting to be protected and to protect, wanting to be with a mate (and therefore procreate), are pretty basic emotions. Higher emotions require 'looking inwards', a concept I can't understand as if you can't guess. Altruism is also a lower emotion when it is simply responding to distress signals from others as a way to shut off something that reminds us of our own suffering because we don't like to see it. People assume such altruism as related to higher human emotion as opposed to some bestial evolutionary past, but even insects will do this. And cats certainly can. ;) So do I, not as often as Clare but still Yagi needs to offset the appearance of the same impulsive streak that makes her a successful killer. The presentation of the character is so skillfully done that people don't want to admit her positive side is the exact same thing as her destructive killer instinct.


On a different note ~ to be honest, I accept and love my cat deeply, but I'm certain that her meows won't turn me back when I'm about to die. :ohBut they risk going back in to wake you up if there's a fire. ;)

Brother Coa
February 24, 2013, 03:58 PM
One more thing you must take into account regarding Claymores and their emotions - they are warriors who sacrificed their own Humanity to protect Humanity.
That also means that they sacrifice most of their Human emotions to protect Humans, so it should not be so strange if they act almost emotionless in front of other Humans.

The only Claymore who acted "relaxed" in front of Humans is Helen, even when she was not drunk.

Ancy
February 24, 2013, 06:33 PM
Wanting to destroy one's enemies, wanting to be protected and to protect, wanting to be with a mate (and therefore procreate), are pretty basic emotions. Higher emotions require 'looking inwards', a concept I can't understand as if you can't guess. Altruism is also a lower emotion when it is simply responding to distress signals from others as a way to shut off something that reminds us of our own suffering because we don't like to see it. People assume such altruism as related to higher human emotion as opposed to some bestial evolutionary past, but even insects will do this. And cats certainly can. ;) So do I, not as often as Clare but still Yagi needs to offset the appearance of the same impulsive streak that makes her a successful killer. The presentation of the character is so skillfully done that people don't want to admit her positive side is the exact same thing as her destructive killer instinct.

So, are you saying that being selfless (altruist) is actually a way to ultimately protect/preserve yourself?? That is a bold paradoxal statement. As for comparing animal and human altruism ~aren't they a little different? Awareness of one's intrinsic motivation it's what makes the difference! Not to mention that human altruism is not necessarily an extension of biological needs ~just think of adoptions. There are various other factors involved in developing human emotions - reasoning, culture, beliefs, society, etc, etc,etc - pretty much everything that is shaping our behaviour. In other words, humanity is not just biological evolution. It's so much more than that!

Anyways, this thread is about Raki. Thus, let's get back on topic!

faintsmile1992
February 24, 2013, 07:39 PM
One more thing you must take into account regarding Claymores and their emotions - they are warriors who sacrificed their own Humanity to protect Humanity.
That also means that they sacrifice most of their Human emotions to protect Humans, so it should not be so strange if they act almost emotionless in front of other Humans.

The only Claymore who acted "relaxed" in front of Humans is Helen, even when she was not drunk.

Yea but Clare's different and that's why I have such an interest in the character because she would be diagnosed similarly to me. She's disinhibited and socially withdrawn with deficits in social interractions (she doubts her own social abilities and can be irritable and hostile) but other than her lack of narcissistic traits she also has the character traits of boldness which are distinct and supposedly overlap only slightly when presented as a Venn diagram.

"Disinhibition entails proneness toward impulse-control problems, including lack of planfulness and foresight, impaired regulation of affect and urges, insistence on immediate gratification, and deficient behavioral restraint. Related concepts include externalizing behavior (Achenbach & Edelbrock, 1978; Krueger et al., 2002), disinhibitory psychopathology (Gorenstein & Newman, 1980; Sher & Trull, 1994), and low inhibitory control (Kochanska, Murray, & Coy, 1997). In personality terms, disinhibition represents the nexus of impulsivity and negative emotionality (Krueger, 1999a; Sher & Trull, 1994), and it shows up behaviorally as irresponsibility, impatience, rapid action with negative consequences, alienation and distrust, volatile emotional displays including reactive aggression, untrustworthiness, proneness to drug and alcohol problems, and illicit and other norm-violating activities (Krueger, Markon, Patrick, Benning, & Kramer, 2007).2

"Boldness encompasses the capacity to remain calm and focused in pressured or threatening situations, rapid recovery from stressful events, high self-assurance and social efficacy, and a tolerance for unfamiliarity and danger. Terms related to boldness include fearless dominance (Benning, Patrick, Blonigen, et al., 2005), daringness, audacity, indomitability, resiliency (Block & Block, 1980), surgency (Cattell, 1947), and hardiness (Kobasa, 1979). In personality terms, boldness is the nexus of social dominance, low stress reactivity, and thrill/adventure seeking (Benning et al., 2003, Benning, Patrick, Blonigen, et al., 2005). Boldness manifests behaviorally as imperturbability, social poise, assertiveness, persuasiveness, bravery, and venturesomeness. Although it includes features that are essentially adaptive, boldness is also associated empirically (see below) with certain maladaptive proclivities (e.g., narcissism, thrill seeking, lack of empathy; Benning, Patrick, Blonigen, et al., 2005; Miller, Watts, & Jones, 2011)."

"Meanness describes a constellation of attributes including deficient empathy, disdain for and lack of close attachments with others, rebelliousness, excitement seeking, exploitativeness, and empowerment through cruelty. Related terms connected to specific operational measures include callousness (Frick, O’Brien, Wooton, & McBurnett, 1994), coldheartedness (Lilienfeld & Widows, 2005), and antagonism (Lynam & Derefinko, 2006). In personality terms, meanness resides midway between (high) dominance and (low) affiliation (Blackburn, 2006; Harpur et al., 1989). From this perspective, meanness can be viewed as agentic disaffiliation: a style in which individuals actively pursue valued goals without regard for the impact their actions have on others, or perhaps even with the explicit intent to cause harm. Meanness can be expressed in terms of arrogance, verbal derisiveness, defiance of authority, an absence of close personal relationships, aggressive competitiveness, physical cruelty toward people and animals, strategic aggression and exploitation of others, and destructive excitement seeking."

I'll probably get some flak for the meanness, but think back to the beginning and the strained relationship she had with Rubel and how she shoves people away. When she meets Raki she starts to develop personal bonds and then when they're separated and she's obsessed by revenge again, she slips back into her obsessive and destructive agentic disaffiliation again.

She is most definitely disinhibited, and other than lacking narcissistic personality traits she fits with boldness. Though I guess these are shounen hero traits. Either way its remarkable how she scores above average on all three without coming across negatively.

---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------


So, are you saying that being selfless (altruist) is actually a way to ultimately protect/preserve yourself?? That is a bold paradoxal statement. As for comparing animal and human altruism ~aren't they a little different? Awareness of one's intrinsic motivation it's what makes the difference! Not to mention that human altruism is not necessarily an extension of biological needs ~just think of adoptions. There are various other factors involved in developing human emotions - reasoning, culture, beliefs, society, etc, etc,etc - pretty much everything that is shaping our behaviour. In other words, humanity is not just biological evolution. It's so much more than that!

Anyways, this thread is about Raki. Thus, let's get back on topic!Sure, I did the last reply while you were typing this so it came through later.

Brother Coa
February 24, 2013, 07:58 PM
Wow...just wow faintsmile1992... On what colleague do you go when you are this thorough on people's behavior and have access to such extensive material? :D
Good job posting all that, there are some very interesting thing in that post.

Clare is meanned and disinhibited because of what happened in her past - her family was murdered by yoma who used her as a toy until Teresa saved her, she was already scarred back them. And just when she was returning to normal Priscilla killed Teresa - in front of her. That was crucial period of time for her as she as person changed once again. Her body was full of hatred and she thought of nothing else but to kill her. Add to that the fact that nobody in her life beside Teresa and those few Human is that village where Teresa left her helped her. All other Humans in her life either didn't care or attacked her ( bandits ), so normally she would be anti-social because of that. She is heartless because she probably decided to keep all her pain for herself, probably not to be burden to anyone.

As for boldness... she probably got that from the beginning, she is insanely brave and has quite the temper when she is angry. She showed that from the very beginning when she followed Teresa even if she kicked her few times and threaten to kill her, she even attacked bandit who tried to rape her even if she knew that she doesn't have any chance against him. This is the trait I believe she carried from the very beginning.

To tell you the truth, I am surprised she is not psycho like Ophelia after all that happened to her. It's a bloody miracle she is only anti-social and heartless. I guess Raki is the one thing that will keep her on her path to Humanity, that is if they both survive this battle and stay together this time.

faintsmile1992
February 26, 2013, 03:16 AM
But since you ask I quoted this over on our forum while it seemed eloquent.


" In the same way that evolution by natural selection can produce purposeful designs without an intelligent designer to prefigure the purpose, so animals can show behavior that evolved to be purposeful but is not psychologically motivated. The rats may decide to free their fellow rats because they're descended from rats that helped relatives and thus allowed their genes to thrive, not because they feel their fellows' pain.

And human beings? Can we be so sure it is fellow-feeling rather than instinct that drives us to our virtuous as well as our vicious actions?"


---------- Post added February 26, 2013 at 07:23 AM ---------- Previous post was February 25, 2013 at 01:09 AM ----------


Wow...just wow faintsmile1992... On what colleague do you go when you are this thorough on people's behavior and have access to such extensive material? :D
Good job posting all that, there are some very interesting thing in that post.Thank you, Brother. ;)


Clare is meanned and disinhibited because of what happened in her past - her family was murdered by yoma who used her as a toy until Teresa saved her, she was already scarred back them. And just when she was returning to normal Priscilla killed Teresa - in front of her. That was crucial period of time for her as she as person changed once again. Her body was full of hatred and she thought of nothing else but to kill her. Add to that the fact that nobody in her life beside Teresa and those few Human is that village where Teresa left her helped her. All other Humans in her life either didn't care or attacked her ( bandits ), so normally she would be anti-social because of that. She is heartless because she probably decided to keep all her pain for herself, probably not to be burden to anyone.

As for boldness... she probably got that from the beginning, she is insanely brave and has quite the temper when she is angry. She showed that from the very beginning when she followed Teresa even if she kicked her few times and threaten to kill her, she even attacked bandit who tried to rape her even if she knew that she doesn't have any chance against him. This is the trait I believe she carried from the very beginning.Right, she has a strong will to power but it was supressed.


To tell you the truth, I am surprised she is not psycho like Ophelia after all that happened to her. It's a bloody miracle she is only anti-social and heartless. I guess Raki is the one thing that will keep her on her path to Humanity, that is if they both survive this battle and stay together this time.Well, you're supposed to make the connection. And with Priscilla.

Some people have said that Yagi re-uses characters in the Claymore-verse but it's more like you're supposed to recognise the parallels between certain characters.

---------- Post added at 08:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 AM ----------

I still want to know where Raki's name comes from.

The 'r' coulf have been an 'r' or an 'l' whilst the first wowel could be 'a', 'o' or 'u' and the final letter in his name could be silent.

My guess is Yagi is giving either a nod to the Polish origins of The Witcher, or to Raki the dog-king of the Danes.

"An earlier account is given in the Chronicon Lethrense V (SMHD, p.48) where Athisl of Sweden made his dog Raki king of the Danes, and this animal also jumped down to join in a fight among other dogs in the hall, and was killed. Athisl had so loved his dog that he had sworn to execute anyone who told him of its death, but finally a clever messenger tricked the king into announcing the death himself. Saxo has made use of this story to express his contempt for the Norwegians." - from Hilda Roderick Ellis Davidson's notes about the dog-king episode in Saxo's The History of the Danes. Will he get killed by jumping into a fight?

lies
February 27, 2013, 03:23 PM
faintsmile1992: I'm a bit confused by your use of the terms "alpha" and "beta" in this context. I've never heard those used non-allegorically to describe humans before. I'd like to know more about what you mean, but we also shouldn't derail the thread. Could you perhaps direct me to some sources?

faintsmile1992
February 28, 2013, 03:01 AM
faintsmile1992: I'm a bit confused by your use of the terms "alpha" and "beta" in this context. I've never heard those used non-allegorically to describe humans before. I'd like to know more about what you mean, but we also shouldn't derail the thread. Could you perhaps direct me to some sources?

Its informal and relates to the 'rules of game' that people such as Roissy/Heartiste talk about if you Google for the words 'alpha', 'beta' and 'game', some definitions are probably on the Urban Dictionary too if you search there.

Basically, alphas have the personality traits women seek in protectors whilst betas have the traits women seek in providers. Raki is therefore a protector and not a provider.

Obviously the words aren't used in 'real' psychological texts, but they reflect evol psych and what people have observed for centuries. Also what women are more likely to find attractive at a given time is affected by ovulation, during which time women become more attracted to alpha traits than usual.

If a girl finds a lad like Raki, he's daddy material because he's an alpha who'd stick around. It's also why girls get crushes on lads with a similar personality like Allen Walker. Though their nonthreatening look could be said to give them a more beta attractiveness as well, its their masculine instincts to protect that are turn on, and not the promise of economic provision lol.

If you want to understand the underlying psychology, this link ought to help. Women don't seek cads as dads, when they sleep with a 'bad boy' they want him to become a Raki or an Allen Walker - protective, masculine and not boring though sure to stick around. There's a reason why girls go for manga males who take part in battles, and not for fictional characters who start their own businesses or something.

Ovulation Leads Women to Perceive Sexy Cads as Good Dads
Kristina M. Durante et al
http://business.utsa.edu/faculty/kdurante/files/OvulationPaternalInvestment.pdf

"Women, of course, ideally want the best parts of both types of men in a romantic partner (Buss & Shackelford, 2008; Fletcher, Simpson, Thomas, & Giles, 1999). Thus, many women seek sexy husbands—men who are attractive, charismatic, and dominant, while also being faithful, reliable, and investing fathers (Li, Bailey, Kenrick, & Linsenmeier, 2002). However, because it is difficult to find and secure such an ideal mate, most women must make a trade-off between pursuing long-term relationships with men who are good dads versus short-term relationships with men who are sexy cads (Gangestad et al., 2007; Gangestad & Simpson, 2000; Li et al., 2002)."

Where possible women go for bravery and kindness but if a woman has to choose then bravery wins out when women are most fertile.

mortalshinobi
June 03, 2013, 01:46 AM
hm... i find your raki discussion interesting. though i am not a huge raki fan, i do like him because i can identify with him far more. though he has grown some alpha qualities, i believe he is more a mixture of alpha and beta. more precisely, he has beta qualities that he started with as being weaker, depending on another, and being emotional, and gained some alpha qualities or had some to start from clare and isely. learning the sword and fighting are qualities he probably learned from clare and isely, while wanting to protect clare and running off to see "the new girl in town" are probably alpha qualities he had at the beginning.
for me i like the combo of him and the fact that older him still reflects his younger years, i.e. being emotional and still being very affectionate with clare. though obviously he's evolved in his older years too.

faintsmile1992
June 05, 2013, 07:58 AM
hm... i find your raki discussion interesting. though i am not a huge raki fan, i do like him because i can identify with him far more. though he has grown some alpha qualities, i believe he is more a mixture of alpha and beta.Yes, the perfect boyfriend is a protector and a provider.

Ancy
August 21, 2013, 01:22 PM
Well at the beginning he was a cry baby. Does that mean he has omega qualities as well?:derp

faintsmile1992
August 23, 2013, 05:35 PM
I don't go all that into the categories stuff the gamers talk about in the Manosphere, but the distinction between 'alpha' and 'beta' attractiveness relates as I wrote to a scientific fact that there are different kinds of good genes. Because women want it both ways, there's something very sexy about lads like Raki, Korluk Eihon, Allen Walker etc. That such lads are usually young or look young for their age is more or less a Japan-specific trope, probably related to the mixture of immature insecurity and surging manhood felt by boys entering adulthood making this age group particularly suitable for the trope - surging manhood channeled into defending others is definitely 'alpha', whilst at another level such characters are 'beta', safe, cute and unthreatening. I can however think of older examples such as Kiba from Wolfs Rain, who I got a crush on at once despite it being technically bestiality. ;) (He has a soothing side Tsume doesn't.)

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Its worth considering Raki's age here and the accusation that Clare is a shotacon. At the beginning of the manga when they are introduced, he is obviously a child. By the time later in the series that they're sexually attracted, he's taller (in the Funimation audio commentary to the anime, in which Raki is this same height through the series, it is stated that he is 12 - Laura Bailey and especially Stephanie Young like Raki very much). Of course now Raki is older he's still hot. ;)

I don't know whether I commented on this in the thread, so remember that Raki is the same height throughout the anime unlike the manga. Men don't mind a little boy crying because kids do. But they have contempt for a young man who cries. In the manga when Raki defends Clare he is clearly a man for the first time and before that he was a boy - when facing death fighting Ophelia he did not cry. But in the anime men have already seen a 12yo acting like a crybaby before that point. This is why men make more of the difference between manga Raki and anime Raki. (Of course girls aren't evaluating him in this same way - it doesn't matter so much to girls, we just see him 'man up' for his woman and become a perfect mate to have kids with.)

Utsune
August 23, 2013, 06:05 PM
I'm not speaking for anybody but myself here, but to be honest I don't find anything bad in particular for young men who cry. Of course, I can't say whether some girls prefer that or not, you tell me :p But I do think, crying is an expression of honesty in the general case, sometimes admirable even, when knowing full well the so-called "expectation of society" they choose to go against it and let out their feelings in the truest form.

I don't know what is attractive and what isn't (it obviously depends on the person's preference) but I certainly wouldn't give a direct comparison of the two or more types of male even subjectively. They are all admirable in their own way (at least for the good-hearted ones anyway.) Though I quite acknowledge the scientific aspect of the topic, I do believe our moral reasoning by the 21st century is evolved enough to counter our genes or society's stereotypes.

Ancy
August 24, 2013, 05:28 AM
Often the society goes double standards against men and women. Whereas girls are encouraged to express their feelings through crying, boys are often mistreated or even bullied if they do so, simply because there's the gender differentiation. No matter of their personality type (alpha, beta, omega or even zeta), boys/men are expected to behave in a certain manner. Although it's the 21 century and our mentality shifted towards a more tolerant view, the society is still rigid when it comes to gender roles. Heck, even colours are assigned accordingly even before we're born <_> (think about baby rooms).

Raki's most attractive trait is that he does not care whether he fits a certain framework. He just acts according to his emotions, feelings, and reasoning...and that takes insane courage. I absolutely admire people who swim upstream.

Speaking of frameworks: I believe that the alpha beta labels should not even be considered when referring to the complexity of the human nature. These behavioural badges are too rigid and simplistic, if you'll ask me.

faintsmile1992
August 25, 2013, 07:27 AM
On the contrary, they're too ill defined and not supposed to be scientific. But the alpha and beta personality traits and their attractiveness to females are nonetheless real.

wickedsmile
August 25, 2013, 04:04 PM
I don't know what is attractive and what isn't (it obviously depends on the person's preference) but I certainly wouldn't give a direct comparison of the two or more types of male even subjectively. They are all admirable in their own way (at least for the good-hearted ones anyway.) Though I quite acknowledge the scientific aspect of the topic, I do believe our moral reasoning by the 21st century is evolved enough to counter our genes or society's stereotypes.

You would hope that the human race, as a whole, has evolved to such high level reasoning. However, removing what has been ingrained into us from childhood proves quite difficult, if not impossible. As so often is the case, we fail to learn the lessons learned by those who preceded us. We're also dealing with issues that have social and emotional repercussions that transcend logical and ethical reasoning. I think the good Doctor Mc Coy from Star Trek called it the "human factor."

I, for one, think that such demarcation between the genders and the behaviors expected of them will always remain to a higher or lesser degree.

Ancy
August 25, 2013, 04:47 PM
But the alpha and beta personality traits and their attractiveness to females are nonetheless real.

What do you mean by REAL? Attractiveness is subjective, at least for humans!
...or am I missing something?

faintsmile1992
August 25, 2013, 05:21 PM
Not entirely. people do have hardwiring, you know lol. Women are hardwired so to find certain personality traits appealing in men. Personal preferences differ but onnly within reason.

Utsune
August 25, 2013, 08:15 PM
You would hope that the human race, as a whole, has evolved to such high level reasoning. However, removing what has been ingrained into us from childhood proves quite difficult, if not impossible. As so often is the case, we fail to learn the lessons learned by those who preceded us. We're also dealing with issues that have social and emotional repercussions that transcend logical and ethical reasoning. I think the good Doctor Mc Coy from Star Trek called it the "human factor."

I, for one, think that such demarcation between the genders and the behaviors expected of them will always remain to a higher or lesser degree.

Unfortunately I'd have to very much agree with you, I guess saying what I've said is partially lying/comforting myself about the reality. Sometimes biases or discrimination can be extremely subtle, the one doing it doesn't even notice it (a perfect example would be racism even in places where people supposedly have a strong sense of anti-racism, the problem doesn't just run on a 'reasoning' scale, but that much should be obvious.)

Though I wouldn't directly call expectation a bad thing, being ruled by that expectation is. Whether you are the party that is expecting, or the party that is receiving the expectation, I think this is the more fundamental issue. You may have formed some sort of expectation, but that's only natural as that is probably how humans are conditioned/made. But rather than sticking to your expectation, maybe one could try giving everything else - other than your expectation - a chance. Well, that's something that works for me anyway, of course everyone has different priorities.



@faintsmile1992
Thing is I'm straight (male, just to make sure lol) so it's a bit difficult for me to talk about attractiveness in terms of Raki. But when I talk about my kind of attractive female, (I don't know what of the female kind males are attracted to in your presumed 'hardwiring,') I can safely say I'm totally different from the 'norm' that you might have in mind. I like females who are literally better than me at most or all things I care about, even in the martial arts that I do. Funnily enough, I couldn't care less if they weren't good with kids at all, even though I do intend to start a family of my own. I would also be attracted to females who are more or less clueless about makeup, or never wear dresses or skirts. Although I haven't directly listed anything pertaining personality traits, I think the above two points are enough to imply the kind of traits those females would have. And I pretty much doubt your expectation of a guy would want to be with a female stronger than he is, or better than he is at playing drums or guitar. This surely isn't "within reason," and before you say it, I'm definitely not one-of-a-kind lol. Weird by expectation, maybe, but not unique in tastes :P

Ancy
August 26, 2013, 06:38 AM
Not entirely. people do have hardwiring, you know lol.

When you say hardwiring do you refer to pheromones, visual cues, or personalities? I agree that visual cues and pheromones/smell might influence the selection of a mate to some extent. However, when adding human reasoning and personalities to the mix, the situation changes.

As I mentioned before, the alpha beta badges are rather simplistic. Why? Well the answer is simple:

1. most humans present a behavioural mix of the traits specific to alpha, beta, omega
2. some people may act as an alpha at home, as an omega at the office and as a beta when going out with friends or viceversa. This indicates that their behaviour is dictated by social contexts.
3. there is the issue of dynamic behaviour. For example alpha teens may become omega adults later in life or viceversa.
4. subjective attractiveness (the halo effect (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuometYfMTk), herd behaviour, men become even more attractive when they are in a relationship, etc)
5. cultural alpha, beta, omega (an alpha in America might behave differently than an alpha in Japan, for example)
6. etc

See why I consider the alpha beta labels simplistic?

TStew
October 15, 2013, 09:03 PM
Wow I had no idea so many (girls) actually liked Raki. Interesting discussion, and I actually learned a few thing about gals. :hee

I saw the anime first, and I suppose am more the stereo typical male that did not care to much for Raki. Infact I was kind of mad at the very end when Jean who was my favorite besides Clare, had to give up her life to save Raki (ok, it was to save Clare too). I mean there were some scenes early on that I felt embarrassed to watch when he was crying. I think they may have over-dramatized it in the anime, the manga wasn't quite so bad, but manga leaves a lot up to your own imagination. To get the effect across in drawing, I think crying was used a bit much, and while ok in the manga I think the anime adaptation took it a bit too far. I think it was partly the voice of Raki too, (especially with it tone shifted to sound younger or whatever its called) as other anime that feature Todd H. I also feel similar.

Since his return though I've done a 180, probably like most guys who originally didnt like him. I'd say if i ever went so far as to cosplay a Claymore at a con, I'd probably do Raki. Isely is probably my favorite male character (especially his awakened form) but its hard to cosplay a centaur well, atleast the hind legs would be hard to do well, so Raki it would be!

faintsmile1992
October 19, 2013, 10:59 AM
The terms like 'alpha male' and 'beta male' are only supposed to be informal and an entire heirarchy has been created that is irrelevant here, but what is relevant here is that the personality traits popularly attributed to 'alpha' and 'beta' males (protectors and providers) match what is known of the sex appeal of males at different times depending whether the female is ovulating or not. I have said this before. ;)

Hardwiring simply refers to the innate structure of the human brains that determine choices, that is all. Personality variation is also largely hardwired and hereditary.

And TStew, thanks. :)

littleangel
October 19, 2013, 03:29 PM
Good to see you back Faintsmile :)

number12michael
October 19, 2013, 04:12 PM
Omg i did not even notice it was you

Welcome back Faintsmile :D

faintsmile1992
October 20, 2013, 05:47 AM
Thanks.

I've been in hospital in Asia and caught an infection is why I haven't been around here.

killy-.-
October 20, 2013, 10:13 AM
The answear is simple, there is many more heterosexual men than pedophiles in the world, if u like the young Raki-chan I advise You to go see a doctor, also there is many half naked women in this manga, why would a normal guy like the young Raki-chan ... man go see a doctor

number12michael
October 20, 2013, 11:52 AM
The answear is simple, there is many more heterosexual men than pedophiles in the world, if u like the young Raki-chan I advise You to go see a doctor, also there is many half naked women in this manga, why would a normal guy like the young Raki-chan ... man go see a doctor

I agree and even in the context of the manga clare was in love with and kissed a child Raki. kind makes clare a pedophile.

But now that he is all grown up Raki looks pretty hot......Not nearly as hot as Chronos tho :D
and they both are not nearly as sexy as Roxanne <3
Then there is sexy nun Galatea ! i would go to church more often if the nuns looked like her ;)

And LMFAO at your country being "Vatican city state"- is that not the birth place of pedophiles?

Utsune
October 20, 2013, 03:31 PM
Before this gets too out-of-hand, I'd like to remind you dudes and dudettes please keep on topic, thanks :)

faintsmile1992
October 21, 2013, 01:40 AM
The answear is simple, there is many more heterosexual men than pedophiles in the world, if u like the young Raki-chan I advise You to go see a doctor, also there is many half naked women in this manga, why would a normal guy like the young Raki-chan ... man go see a doctorI wasn't referring to sexual attraction alone by 'like', people don't need to be sexually attracted to a character to like them. Male readers used to hate Raki, whilst he had a female fandom even for the period before the timeskip (like the owner of the Stronger webring, and the half-Amerindian girl who posted on AnimeSuki, and Stephanie Young and Laura Bailey said they were sexually attracted to Raki in the Funi audio commentary.)


I agree and even in the context of the manga clare was in love with and kissed a child Raki. kind makes clare a pedophile.

But now that he is all grown up Raki looks pretty hot......Not nearly as hot as Chronos tho :D
and they both are not nearly as sexy as Roxanne <3
Then there is sexy nun Galatea ! i would go to church more often if the nuns looked like her ;)

And LMFAO at your country being "Vatican city state"- is that not the birth place of pedophiles?

Before they separated Raki was already an adolescent like Clare, in fact he looked like the standard age of those shounen heros girls get crushes on. In the manga he only began to show manly traits and stop crying like a baby after he grew taller. In the anime he is the same height throughout, maybe why many people have less tolerance for 'anime Raki' than for him in the manga where he cries as a little kid - he still cries in the beginning of the anime, though in the beginning he was already at Clare's shoulder height not a little boy.

TStew
October 22, 2013, 03:54 PM
... man go see a doctor


I wasn't referring to sexual attraction alone by 'like', people don't need to be sexually attracted to a character to like them.

Agreed. I for one (and I assume most) were reffering to how we liked or disliked Raki's character, nothing to do with anything sexual geez. Kind of like how I 'love' Miria's phantom ability, or the design of Isley's awakened form.

number12michael
October 22, 2013, 05:59 PM
Agreed. I for one (and I assume most) were reffering to how we liked or disliked Raki's character, nothing to do with anything sexual geez. Kind of like how I 'love' Miria's phantom ability, or the design of Isley's awakened form.

i loved how he could turn his arms into different weapons.....almost like they adapted to his opponents

SSJPabs
October 26, 2013, 08:10 PM
Design wise, I found the face of Raki's young design very strange and unusual. Yagi, up until about the last year or so (around the time Miria was thought to have died), drew in a way that I find somewhat unsettling so his character design made me biased against him. Clare shares this look in the early parts of the manga too, but it was very pronounced with Raki. Angel Densetsu was the same from what I've seen. He's gotten better lately and that includes adult Raki.

As an adult I like Raki a lot because he's matured enough that he appears to want what's best for Clare. As a kid he was more concerned over what he wanted from Clare (wanted to stay with her) which I found annoying as he was clearly endangering her even though as a child he wouldn't be expected to have that level of maturity. But then, I don't particularly like real children either. :derp

clarakiss
January 01, 2014, 05:04 AM
Okay, so, one of my new years resolution this year was to finally join this claymore forum and lead the raki army to greater heights! :3

Leroid
January 01, 2014, 07:27 AM
Okay, so, one of my new years resolution this year was to finally join this claymore forum and lead the raki army to greater heights! :3

Wellcome to this forum clarakiss. It's been a while. :)

clarakiss
January 01, 2014, 04:27 PM
Wellcome to this forum clarakiss. It's been a while. :)

why thank you, good sir. you seem to know me from teh animesuki forum i assuming? :nod

Leroid
January 01, 2014, 06:40 PM
why thank you, good sir. you seem to know me from teh animesuki forum i assuming? :nod

You assume well.

littleangel
January 03, 2014, 06:19 PM
Okay, so, one of my new years resolution this year was to finally join this claymore forum and lead the raki army to greater heights! :3

You were a Raki fan?? Now Raki got an extra oldie from AS.. Damn we have to deal with this by spreading more Raki hate.. I think I should make this my resolution..