Theory Why Naruto won't become Hokage and will die with Sasuke [Archive]

Roman

November 24, 2011, 04:36 AM

I agree with that theory and would like it to end that way, but it's a shounen manga so I think Naruto can't die. Naruto isn't a God, but he already surpassed all the Kages that are fighting. That's why all of them count on him as the one to save the world from all this shit. The best example for that is that even the mighty stubborn Raikage let him pass (once Naruto owned his speed). And as far as I can tell, Kyuubi, who is one distrustful son of a b****, is starting to listen to his words and will finally give in in the next couple of chapters. So there really is no one that can resist his morals and views, except for Madara and Sasuke, of course. From the beginning we knew that he'll rise up to the top, specially ever since we started hinting that Minato is his father. With his excellence and superiority in reputation, it's only natural that his son exceeds him in every possible way. Naruto is the descendant of the Sage's younger son and he will become the leader of the shinobi world, just like Sage Of The Six Paths wanted his son to be.

Zancrow

November 24, 2011, 10:54 PM

jaymizzo

November 25, 2011, 05:15 AM

When the shinobi alliance wins the war and naruto becomes a hero , theres no point in naruto becoming kage , as the fighting among villages would probably stop and ninja villages would probably become a democracy and have a government instead lolz and naruto probably wouldnt want to be involved in boring politics so he might just go low profile , get married to hinata and smell the air of peace and tell himself what an awesome job he had done xD

Personally i dont see it that way, ive been having this dream/thought that Naruto wont be successful in defeating Tobi and will get captured, Tobi will create a Zetsu clone of Naruto to sever his connections with the Shinobi Alliance, like make him attack Konoha etc then he will be marked as a traitor/missing nin etc (i know its extremely out of Character). Naruto escapes Tobi because while being in prep to get his Bijuu taken out he creates an extremely strong bond with the kyuubi and it helps him out break out.

Naruto goes around and realizes that his a wanted Nin with a KOS order on his head, He secretly goes to Konoha and gets Konohamaru and his team and goes out training with them, He goes on a search for his Roots (Uzumaki and Namikaze). Say after a few years, Tobi and Madaras plan comes to place, on the Infinate Tsukuyomi, but instead of using it on the Narutoverse, we learn the existenece of a new continent of Ninjas who get inslaved by them. After they resurrect the Jyuubi unbeknownst to them, they resurrect Rikudou sennin too, but a tainted version from being exposed to negative energy for such a long time. He reveals himself to both Continents and gives them an ultimatum, Join him or die etc

Some villages join him and that becomes the start of a new arc :P

In summary, i dont think Naruto would die, i think he will live but in his own self established village IMO if not Konohas Hokage

DementedKirby

November 25, 2011, 08:24 AM

For ninjas, it is in death where you get most remembered. Even Sarutobi told Jiraiya that what makes a ninja epic is how they die, not how they live. Minato died protecting Konoha. Minato = epic. Sarutobi died protecting Konoha. Sarutobi = epic. A's father took on like 50 villages at once for three days and nights. A's father = epic. I could go on and on.

Sure, it's a romantic notion to have Naruto survive and see him smile at the horizon in the last panel of the last chapter of the last volume of Naruto, but I personally don't see that happening. His death taking out the last threat to peace (along with that threat) is much more epic, solemn, and impacting than him just offing the threat, coming back with thumbs up, going "yo...". It sinks the nail even further in the coffin of hate.

Why would Naruto have to survive 'til the end anyway? What's his role in a world full of peace? To be the jinchuuriki that keeps the Kyuubi happy? Naruto himself would probably want the ninja to stay aware of all the released bijuu and have them sealed away, never to be used again - Kyuubi included. I think that for the world to be a truly peaceful place, Naruto has to die. Sacrifice is the best way to open people's eyes.

Uchiha_Blood

November 25, 2011, 10:53 AM

knowing Kishi,he will troll naruto so hard by made him sacrifice his life for the good of the world, while a redeemed Sasuke leads Konoha while making tons of Uchiha babies with Sakura.
That way every three characters have their happy ending, Naruto is hailed as a hero, Sasuke is ridden of his hatred and can reform his clan, and Sakura is with the love of his live ( that's her role anyway ).

While a prefer the classic happy ending with the trio reunited and all, I think that Naruto will likely die, don't know if Sasuke will follow him though. And yet a little part of me thinks that, like with Harry Potter, Kishi will do the ending the fans will want, and killing Naruto off would not bode well with all the children that watches Naruto. It's not like they would like the hero to die for a better world, much better for them is a lame ending while rainbows shines upon the head of team 7. Still Naruto wants to be hokage, and even recently he received a lecture from Itachi on his dream. And I think that Naruto, more of every other character of the Narutoverse combined, needs some peace in his life:
being ostracized from the moment he is been born, without a family, without someone to praise him until Iruka and Team 7, losing his mentor and paternal figure ( the almighty Ero-Sennin ), betrayed by his best friend, not loved by the one he himself loved ( thank god for that ), and having the strongest bijuu in his belly that, while being useful, bought him sorrow like no other. Only with the invasion of Pein he received the recognition he sought so badly, while being 16 years old. 16 years while not knowing even who his parents were, waiting 16 years to hear his mother and father saying that they loved him. Imho a good life as a Hokage, loved by all, ordering Sasuke around just for the fun of it is something he deserves

ninjabot

November 25, 2011, 03:32 PM

Why would Naruto have to survive 'til the end anyway? What's his role in a world full of peace? To be the jinchuuriki that keeps the Kyuubi happy? Naruto himself would probably want the ninja to stay aware of all the released bijuu and have them sealed away, never to be used again - Kyuubi included. I think that for the world to be a truly peaceful place, Naruto has to die. Sacrifice is the best way to open people's eyes.

Naruto seems like he wants to set the Kyuubi free one day, once he's sure he can save him from his hatred or some such gayness: http://www.mangareader.net/93-53820-15/naruto/chapter-499.html

So I dont know about sealing all the tailed beasts away. Though if they all combine to make the Juubi, and the Juubi is then sealed away inorder to defeat Shin Madara, that's another story. I could see sealing the bijuu working that way, but not with Naruto hunting them down and sealing them one by one. That seems kinda... badguy-ish.

And I'm not sure Naruto has to die to convince the world to unite and refine their ninja system. Tsuchikage and all the other Kage have pretty much come to that consensus already, that there needs to be a change. If 40,000 deaths wasn't enough of a sacrifice I don't see how losing Naruto would change that.

DementedKirby

November 25, 2011, 06:37 PM

I see your point, but Naruto rambling some fruity, peace stuff at the end would seem anticlimactic for a Shounen manga. Even if the Juubi's resurrection were detained and Madara foiled, if the manga were to continue (which I doubt), then the next villain would probably be Sasuke (or at least after the war). Because Itachi's going to go fight Kabuto, Naruto + KillerBee are fighting Tobi, the kage are fighting Madara, and the remaining alliance members are tending their wounds. What's next then? Besides, the other puny villages would have to succumb to the mass ninja alliance. What good would saying no be? They're gonna be severely outclassed. Only time will tell if the ending will suit the epicness of the manga.

Roman

November 26, 2011, 10:56 AM

DementedKirby

November 26, 2011, 12:29 PM

Well, the tailed beasts are masses of hatred because people used them as weapons and instruments for war. It is because of people that they need a one big ass chill-pill. I'm sure that Naruto wants, not just Kyuubi, but all the tailed beasts to live freely on their own without being used for violence and domination. I imagine, when this war is over and if Naruto doesn't die, Kyuubi will be so infatuated by Naruto that he'll stay as his pet and start loving Konoha as his own. Which would be pretty cool. Sasuke will definitely conclude whether Naruto lives or dies but how will Kishimito picture that, we'll see soon enough.

Since Naruto will now face Sasuke with the intent to kill and not convince, I doubt Sasuke will have such an easy time facing Naruto such as to be able to "decide whether he lives or dies". Their fight at the Valley of the End ended the way it did because Naruto, unlike Sasuke, wasn't fighting to the death. Only upon defeating Naruto did Sasuke decide to not kill him - and he only did so because he went against Itachi's wishes in killing his best friend. I think that Sasuke's fate lies in Naruto's hands, and not the other way around. We've seen how strong Naruto's become, and he's yet to be a perfect jinchuuriki or complete the Bijuu Bomb. Sasuke's already reached his highest level - EMS. Naruto's still got more leveling up to do. That says a lot.

Roman

November 26, 2011, 01:38 PM

Since Naruto will now face Sasuke with the intent to kill and not convince, I doubt Sasuke will have such an easy time facing Naruto such as to be able to "decide whether he lives or dies". Their fight at the Valley of the End ended the way it did because Naruto, unlike Sasuke, wasn't fighting to the death. Only upon defeating Naruto did Sasuke decide to not kill him - and he only did so because he went against Itachi's wishes in killing his best friend. I think that Sasuke's fate lies in Naruto's hands, and not the other way around. We've seen how strong Naruto's become, and he's yet to be a perfect jinchuuriki or complete the Bijuu Bomb. Sasuke's already reached his highest level - EMS. Naruto's still got more leveling up to do. That says a lot.

Agreed. Naruto and Sasuke are basically sons of Sage Of The Six Paths. Their clash will be legendary. Tracking down how much Naruto has improved in the last 50 chapters, not even Sasuke's EMS doesn't look that cool and strong in front of his growth, and like you said, he'll become even stronger. If Naruto beats Tobi now, imagine how powerful Naruto and Sasuke will actually be in their fight. Madara and Hashirama would probably wet their pants.

DementedKirby

November 26, 2011, 08:48 PM

The thing is, every battle has to be more epic than the previous one. Naruto faced Pain and that was pretty much his last battle until now. So the only way to up that ante was to face another 6 paths, but with 6 jinchuuriki instead of corpses and a teleporting, phasing shell-of-a-former-self instead of a megalomaniacal cripple. Granted, Naruto has KillerBee to save his ass now, but back then he'd summon the toad bosses to help him and Hinata jumped in and saved his ass. So basically, this battle has everything necessary to anticipate the epicness!

Since Sasuke's gonna be the supposed final match with Naruto, it's gotta be greater than all of Naruto's previous matches combined (Zabuza, Haku, Kiba, Neji, Gaara, Kimimaro, Sasuke, Deidara, Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Pain, and Tobi).

ninjabot

November 27, 2011, 07:34 PM

Since Naruto will now face Sasuke with the intent to kill and not convince, I doubt Sasuke will have such an easy time facing Naruto such as to be able to "decide whether he lives or dies".

That's not the case. Naruto never said he was going to try to kill Sasuke, he said they were both going to die. Huge difference. He'll fight with everything he has to stop him, short of killing him, but his death could still result from the fight without him actively trying to murder him, which is the case (overexhaustion, some dumb mistake, betrayal by an ally).

Their fight at the Valley of the End ended the way it did because Naruto, unlike Sasuke, wasn't fighting to the death. Only upon defeating Naruto did Sasuke decide to not kill him - and he only did so because he went against Itachi's wishes in killing his best friend. I think that Sasuke's fate lies in Naruto's hands, and not the other way around.

'Fraid not. If you mean fate, neither are in control or else only one of them would die when they fight. With all of Naruto's greater strength the future-seeing toad saw that they will both die. So did Naruto in that BS epiphany they had when they clashed jutsu. He's stronger, no doubt. But strength is hardly the deciding factor in a manga where ninja die from poison, disease, chakra stealing and ally summoning.

As for Sasuke only winning because Naruto held back: no. The most Naruto could've hoped for is a draw at that point, and after the Kyuubi took control you can't use the excuse that he wasn't going for the kill, because he wasn't in control when the shroud sprouted a full tail. And when they both hit at the same time, the only attack Naruto could still manage was a headshot.

We've seen how strong Naruto's become, and he's yet to be a perfect jinchuuriki or complete the Bijuu Bomb. Sasuke's already reached his highest level - EMS. Naruto's still got more leveling up to do. That says a lot.

We've yet to see what Sasuke's EMS grants him. It could be as simple as a greater chakra reserve or a single offensive jutsu... or as grand as an S/T jutsu or supplimentary powerup ala Chakra Mode. There'd be no reason to leave Naruto more time to grow if he was strong enough to win as he is without us seeing the new power Sasuke's gained from EMS.

DementedKirby

December 03, 2011, 09:16 PM

We've yet to see what Sasuke's EMS grants him. It could be as simple as a greater chakra reserve or a single offensive jutsu... or as grand as an S/T jutsu or supplimentary powerup ala Chakra Mode. There'd be no reason to leave Naruto more time to grow if he was strong enough to win as he is without us seeing the new power Sasuke's gained from EMS.

That's my point. Sasuke already reached his peak - whatever it may be. Naruto's still got a ways to get there. It's not gonna be a piece of cake for Sasuke. Period. I don't think it ever was. If Naruto were so inferior to Sasuke he wouldn't've almost had a draw at the Valley of the End. When Sasuke started training under Orochimaru then he surpassed Naruto a hundred fold. But after Naruto learned the Rasenshuriken and Kyuubi Mode, all bets are off.

Rikudou King

December 03, 2011, 10:48 PM

Naruto really doesn't have that far to go. "Befriending" the Kyuubi isn't really gonna change anything at this point aside from possibly giving him the ability to fully transform. The only new upgrade he has left is to actually master the Bijuu Rasengan.

And VotE pretty much did show how uneven they were.

DementedKirby

December 04, 2011, 10:16 AM

Transforming into the Kyuubi is what Naruto needs to manage against Sasuke's Susano'o. It's practically a necessity.

Rikudou King

December 04, 2011, 11:01 AM

That sounds like it would be a real bad idea. Sasuke already showed he can manage against a transformed Jinchuuriki and such large being like the Kyuubi would make an easy target for his arrows. I'm not seeing any advantage in transforming, especially since it's been made clear he's gonna gain the usage of the Bijuu Blast as his Bijuu Rasengan, eliminating the one advantage of transforming.

DementedKirby

December 04, 2011, 11:48 AM

Naruto might be a bigger target but I doubt the Kyuubi's gonna be that easy to damage by Susano'o's arrows. If anything, the weakness of transforming is Amaterasu.

ninjabot

December 04, 2011, 02:30 PM

That's my point. Sasuke already reached his peak - whatever it may be. Naruto's still got a ways to get there. It's not gonna be a piece of cake for Sasuke. Period. I don't think it ever was. If Naruto were so inferior to Sasuke he wouldn't've almost had a draw at the Valley of the End. When Sasuke started training under Orochimaru then he surpassed Naruto a hundred fold. But after Naruto learned the Rasenshuriken and Kyuubi Mode, all bets are off.

Again, how are you convinced we know Sasuke's at his peak when we haven't seen the upwards limit of his power when his EMS is active? It's like saying Sasuke's usage of Amaterasu is his peak of MS mastery, before even finding out that he has access to Susanoo. Hidden power aside, we also don't even know how much stronger his Susanoo is now that it's achieved it's full armored form. And look at Amaterasu: learning it wasn't the peak of mastery. Creating Enton and manipulating it to it's whim... THAT was mastery of it. It's like you're saying Naruto having Chakra Mode isn't his peak because there's new abilities to learn from it (which I agree with). But you won't accept that Sasuke also hasn't reached his peak because there's something new out there for him to learn from his EMS (both learning it, then mastering it down the road in battle like all his other MS abilities).

Why is it different for Naruto, when Naruto's growth is already defined/confined to Bijuudama, Genjutsu defense, and full Kyuubi transformation, while Sasuke's growth can be literally ANYTHING?

And I never said that beating Naruto was a walk in the park. It's just Sasuke's always ahead because he's flatout better, whether by an inch or a mile. He has ways to defeat ninja faster than him. He has ways to defeat ninja with more stamina than him. Naruto hasn't shown anything that isn't counterable thanks to regular MS, let alone EMS. Also, you're getting ahead of yourself by saying "Sasuke's hit his limit, but Naruto hasn't, so he's gonna eventually become too much for Sasuke to handle". You don't know what he can handle. None of us do.

jdw

December 04, 2011, 02:51 PM

I am not sure if Sasuke is always ahead of Naruto. Generally, he has spent much time ahead of Naruto, but that his been questionable at different periods in the manga. For instance, during the Chuunin exam, Naruto appeared to have completely surpassed Sasuke, and it seemed to be highlighted during the Gaara fight, though some may argue Sasuke was still ahead (I would definitely not agree). Additionally, after the Pain fight, another indicator of level was Zetsu's comment that Naruto might be out front. Sasuke didn't have Susanoo active around that time, so he clearly increased after, but it isn't clear whether it brought him to Naruto, or allowed him to pass Naruto. My opinion is that Sasuke and Naruto were even as of the team 7 reunion, and that that Naruto is ahead at the moment but only because Sasuke's post-EMS ability or abilities have not been revealed. Once they are shown, there will likely be a tie again or Sasuke will have a clearly dominant lead over Naruto.

ninjabot

December 04, 2011, 03:01 PM

Depends on the measuring stick being used. Overall worth, or destructive force/strength alone. That said, I don't think there's a single poster here who thought Chuunin Exams Naruto could defeat Chuunin Exams Sasuke in a fight. And if they did that'd make for a... colorful debate in the arena thread. It's like I say in every "Sasuke or Naruto" thread that's ever been made here. Naruto's always trumped Sasuke in the power department, but that's never made him better than him, as Sasuke always had something that made that power neglegable (or atleast manageable), or was always superior in far more areas than just "hitting really hard". Chiefly in the speed department.

jdw

December 04, 2011, 03:19 PM

Well, I think it would be unreasonable to just declare Sasuke as permanently ahead from the beginning to now when there are indications that there were times when Naruto pulled ahead. Using the entirety of the manga as a measuring stick, I think most objective people would stay that Sasuke has been out front the overwhelming majority of the time with Naruto closing in and even enjoying periods of being out front.

DementedKirby

December 04, 2011, 05:14 PM

The only way Sasuke "surpassed" Naruto was in intelligence. However, Naruto is no longer just a brawling moron. Also, in all of Naruto's recent fights he's used his brain. Sasuke is no longer fighting intelligently. He's just spamming the Mangekyou. Now that it's eternal, he won't have to worry about going blind - just chakra depletion. So now it's basically established that Sasuke's gonna spam the Mangekyou even more. So whatever advantages Sasuke had over Naruto in battle intelligence is no longer such an insurpassable gap. So the debate will always be hot because Naruto is no longer (if he ever were) a pushover to Sasuke. The only time I could've called it hands down Sasuke wiping the floor with Naruto was when they caught up to Orochimaru at the beginning of Shippuuden. After that, and Naruto leveled up a lot, it's anybody's fight.

What we've yet to see is Sasuke use his new abilities. Showing them off isn't a leveling up. He's not gonna level up anymore. Period. He's reached his peak. We've just to see his abilities. Naruto hasn't reached his peak yet. That simple.

Rikudou King

December 04, 2011, 08:47 PM

Naruto might be a bigger target but I doubt the Kyuubi's gonna be that easy to damage by Susano'o's arrows. If anything, the weakness of transforming is Amaterasu. Don't forget, Susanoo's arrows are now seemly made from the flames of Amaterasu. It's two birds with one stone.

The only way Sasuke "surpassed" Naruto was in intelligence. However, Naruto is no longer just a brawling moron. Also, in all of Naruto's recent fights he's used his brain. Sasuke is no longer fighting intelligently. He's just spamming the Mangekyou. Now that it's eternal, he won't have to worry about going blind - just chakra depletion. So now it's basically established that Sasuke's gonna spam the Mangekyou even more. So whatever advantages Sasuke had over Naruto in battle intelligence is no longer such an insurpassable gap. First off, while Naruto has gotten smarter, it's only been while in Sage Mode. Naruto in his cloak form is still the "brawling moron" that completely forgets someone's abilities they just witness. Secondly, Sasuke does still fight intelligently. His fight with Danzo showed that. And Sasuke doesn't spam his MS. Against both Kirabi and the Kages, he didn't engage his MS until he had used his other ninjutsu and had no other option. The closest he has come to spamming is at the start of his fight with Danzo and even then he soon switched to his other techniques before having to recall Susanoo to save his life, again switching back to his ninjutsu afterward. At no point have we witness anything that could be called spamming. So Sasuke's advantages still remain and aren't likely to change considering what we have seen.

ninjabot

December 04, 2011, 10:12 PM

What we've yet to see is Sasuke use his new abilities. Showing them off isn't a leveling up. He's not gonna level up anymore. Period. He's reached his peak. We've just to see his abilities. Naruto hasn't reached his peak yet. That simple.

That makes no sense. How is Naruto learning to use the bijuudama leveling up, when Sasuke learning to use his EMS isn't? They're both simply aquiring new abilities that are already hard-wired into their potential to use. No growth in physical strength, speed, or durability. Just a new attack. Unless you're placing faith in full Kyuubi transformation as a new level. That's the worst possible thing Naruto could do against Sasuke in a fight.

And if leveling up were that important I could consider the Rinnegan a new level up for Sasuke, which he most certainly has the potential to gain (provided he had a Senju booster shot). What could Naruto possibly gain that could be considered a level above Chakra Mode? AKA, superior to Chakra Mode?

jdw

December 05, 2011, 07:16 AM

As a an Uzumaki, which are relatives to Senju, It may also be possible for Naruto to obtain rinnegan with some something Uchiha.

Roman

December 05, 2011, 11:19 AM

As a an Uzumaki, which are relatives to Senju, It may also be possible for Naruto to obtain rinnegan with some something Uchiha.

That would be the lamest thing in this manga, if it were to happen. Also, it wouldn't make one shred of a sense since one son always had the body power while the other had eyes. Senju didn't have eye power to begin with, so that makes it even more pointless. Nagato was an Uzumaki, but he didn't awaken the Rinnegan since Tobi/Madara literally gave it to him. Naruto is probably the descendant of the younger Sage's son and representative of love which is a key to leading shinobi world. Eyes are basically what fuels the hatred and would stain Naruto's character, aside from mentioned reasons as why it shouldn't happen.

ninjabot

December 05, 2011, 12:49 PM

As a an Uzumaki, which are relatives to Senju, It may also be possible for Naruto to obtain rinnegan with some something Uchiha.

Agreed. Both Sasuke and Naruto would need an outside source to gain that eye, but it'd definitely be a power up worthy of being called a level up. I don't however see how learning the bijuudama could be considered a new level while learning to use the EMS's hidden ability wouldn't.

Personally I'd rather niether of them got the Rinnegan, but I won't argue against the logic of it. It's perfectly viable.

DementedKirby

December 22, 2011, 09:51 PM

That makes no sense. How is Naruto learning to use the bijuudama leveling up, when Sasuke learning to use his EMS isn't? They're both simply aquiring new abilities that are already hard-wired into their potential to use. No growth in physical strength, speed, or durability. Just a new attack. Unless you're placing faith in full Kyuubi transformation as a new level. That's the worst possible thing Naruto could do against Sasuke in a fight.

And if leveling up were that important I could consider the Rinnegan a new level up for Sasuke, which he most certainly has the potential to gain (provided he had a Senju booster shot). What could Naruto possibly gain that could be considered a level above Chakra Mode? AKA, superior to Chakra Mode?

I don't consider Sasuke learning to use his EMS a "level-up" because it's pretty redundant. It's obvious that if it's new and he's just awakenend it then he's gotta learn how to use it. It's pretty much common sense. It's not like: "Alright! EMS! It's an instant level up! Now, mastering it - another level up!" I'm simply already taking into consideration his learning how to use it because obviously merely awakening it is not enough.

Sure, just as Sasuke was born with Uchiha blood and thus being granted a Sharingan since the beginning, so was Naruto with the Kyuubi. However, in both cases, they had to learn to use it. Sasuke trained his Sharingan and power and he literally leveled up. Naruto had to learn every aspect of the Kyuubi in order to use it. Naruto had to first access the chakra (Jiraiya), then seal the Kyuubi (Kushina), then access Cloak Form (Killer-Bee), then he's gonna probably transform into it (Kyuubi itself (most likely)).

In summation, getting EMS automatically implies eventual mastery, so that's why I say that Sasuke will get no other level-up. What's left for him to do besides awaken Rinnegan and we all hope to Kishimoto that he will never do that.

ninjabot

December 22, 2011, 10:51 PM

The question was why Naruto who essentially is doing the same thing as Sasuke (finding out the full pontential of his current powerup) is expected to grow an entirely new level, simply from mastering a new ability, whereas Sasuke won't, simply from mastering a new ability. But it's becoming apparent that there literally is no difference.

I'll try to simplify: If the ability that Sasuke gains from his EMS grants him twice the speed, strength, and chakra he's had recently, how can you not consider that a level above what he has had previously? Likewise, if Naruto does nothing more than say... learn to turn into the full Kyuubi mode, and that's it: would that be a big enough powerboost to consider him a level above what he's currently shown? Ofcourse not. Sasuke doesn't need a new looking eye or physical transformation inorder for him to be considered a level greater than he was since we last saw him. All he has to do is show the difference in strength between the Sasuke that has show his fully formed Susanoo, and the Sasuke who has shown the new power he's aquired from gaining EMS.

What I'm trying to get you to understand is if you're gonna break things down into levels, it should be in ascending order. Next level literally always means a new plateu, symbolizing that the character has amassed power greater than what they had before by a significant amount. I really don't see how you can say there's no difference from having an EMS, and haveing a mastered EMS.

DementedKirby

December 23, 2011, 02:53 PM

Prince Sasuke

December 23, 2011, 03:56 PM

Well, it's the nature of the Eternal Mangekyou. It's been said that the purpose of the Eternal Mangekyou is simply to not go blind by using your Mangekyou. The Mangekyou itself already grants you an ability besides the three gods. So basically EMS = the spamming of the MS without going blind. That's why I say that there's nothing new to master. I may be proven wrong if Sasuke does something unique to an EMS, but so far, he's reached his limit level-wise - at least with what I've interpreted from the manga. I'm not breaking anything down. If Sasuke hasn't been shown before until Naruto mastered Kyuubi Mode it's safe to say that he's now reached Naruto's current level. How will Sasuke then reach Naruto's level when Naruto becomes a perfect jinchuuriki like Killer Bee?

That is inaccurate. The MS grants the power of the three Gods and allow one to control the Kyuubi. EMS stops the user from going blind,AND gives birth to a completely NEW Dojutsu. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/9
Sasuke has at least two more power ups in the making..... its probably a 80% chance that Sasuke will obtain the Rinnengan.... that will be the second power up.... if its not included in the first.

DementedKirby

December 23, 2011, 06:54 PM

Sasuke himself probably wouldn't want the Rinnegan given his megalomania with his clan. He'll probably think that the Sharingan is superior to anything else.

Besides, the purpose of this thread is the fact that the absorption of the hokage title (absolution, actually) means that Naruto's quest is goalless. He can't become hokage if there is no longer a hokage title. So if he can't become hokage he'll probably die with Sasuke. I really don't see Sasuke getting saved - much less Naruto. Maybe his promise to Konohamaru trumps his promise to Sasuke and lives, but Sasuke won't team up with Naruto, won't fight alongside Naruto, Naruto's gonna have to put him down like the rabid dog he's become.

The irony of Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan is that he is already blinded by hatred.

Prince Sasuke

December 23, 2011, 08:03 PM

Sasuke could very well not have a choice in whether he gains the Rinnengan or not. He gave up that right the minute he decided to take Itach's eyes. EMS evolves into rinnengan with or without Senju DNA.

I believe all Kages will continue to exist... The villagers and Kages will just have more respect for one another, but every shinobi want live in the same village.

You are underestimating Sasuke, sure Naruto looks more impressive right now, that's due to Sasuke has been missing for the last eight months. One Sasuke show his powers, the same old routine will be shown. Sasuke and Naruto will be equal or Sasuke will have the edge.

DementedKirby

December 23, 2011, 09:06 PM

I don't think Sasuke will have the edge. He's had the edge every time they've crossed paths. It's about time Naruto had the upper hand when facing Sasuke.

Rikudou King

December 23, 2011, 09:20 PM

If Naruto had the edge, that would completely eliminate his status as the underdog and such. Not only that, but then in order to maintain an even and extended battle, Naruto would then have to be nerfed in exchange for Sasuke.

chilibun

December 23, 2011, 09:29 PM

Sasuke could very well not have a choice in whether he gains the Rinnengan or not. He gave up that right the minute he decided to take Itach's eyes. EMS evolves into rinnengan with or without Senju DNA.

Where did you get this from? Everything so far implies that Madara obtained Hashirama's cells to achieve more power, to evolve his EMS to the Rinnegan.

ninjabot

December 23, 2011, 09:42 PM

Sasuke could very well not have a choice in whether he gains the Rinnengan or not. He gave up that right the minute he decided to take Itach's eyes. EMS evolves into rinnengan with or without Senju DNA.

No it doesn't. There's never been an instant in the manga where the Sharingan has become a Rinnegan without Senju DNA being present. Tobi has Hashirama's Senju DNA, thus he can use the Rinnegan. Madara gained Hashirama's DNA and then he gained the ability to use the Rinnegan. Nagato gained the Rinnegan because as an Uzumaki he had atleast a bit of Senju DNA in his blood, no matter how diluted. The eldest son of Rikudou Sennin was the first to have a magical doujutsu and that wasn't the Rinnegan and, even if it was, he still had similar DNA to his younger brother and his father, meaning he had both Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Who in the manga has unlocked the Rinnegan without having some form of Senju DNA? Who has unlocked it just by gaining the EMS? Keep in mind only two ninja in the entire manga have had the EMS mind you.

Prince Sasuke

December 23, 2011, 10:18 PM

Where did you get this from? Everything so far implies that Madara obtained Hashirama's cells to achieve more power, to evolve his EMS to the Rinnegan.

That's possibly, but the way I see it is, that's the power of EMS. It was said to give birth to a completely new dojutsu. Madara could have very well obtain renningan by gaining Senju DNA, but it could be different for Sasuke. Sasuke has been stated a few times by a few different people that he has very strong eyes, so it's possibly that he could gain Rinnengan just by EMS evolving that way. Afterall, the elder son had the rinnengan and Sasuke is a part of his linage. Either way, nothing has been confirmed.

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

No it doesn't. There's never been an instant in the manga where the Sharingan has become a Rinnegan without Senju DNA being present. Tobi has Hashirama's Senju DNA, thus he can use the Rinnegan. Madara gained Hashirama's DNA and then he gained the ability to use the Rinnegan. Nagato gained the Rinnegan because as an Uzumaki he had atleast a bit of Senju DNA in his blood, no matter how diluted. The eldest son of Rikudou Sennin was the first to have a magical doujutsu and that wasn't the Rinnegan and, even if it was, he still had similar DNA to his younger brother and his father, meaning he had both Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Who in the manga has unlocked the Rinnegan without having some form of Senju DNA? Who has unlocked it just by gaining the EMS? Keep in mind only two ninja in the entire manga have had the EMS mind you.

Like i said, you can't prove my theory wrong. Madara EMS evolved to Rinnengan with or without Senju Dna. The point is EMS evoles, it has not been stated that one need senju dna to obtain the rinnnegan has it?? a lot of things are implied.
EMS gives birth to a completely new Dojutsu http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/9 it can be implied that new DOJUTSU is the Rinnengan. I mean how many other Dojutsu are out there??

Megapithicanthrope

December 23, 2011, 10:28 PM

Prince Sasuke

December 23, 2011, 10:37 PM

I'm afraid I agree that Senju DNA is required. They're the two halves of the Rinnegan after all.

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------

I might also suggest that Nagato has the Rinnegan because Madara used his DNA and Hashirama's DNA to give it to him. Nagato's own references to the weakness of his techniques compared to the Sages seemed reminiscent of Yamato's comparisons to Hashirama. He was weaker than the Sage because, just like Yamato, he was not born with the ability.

Senju Dna could very well be requied, but it hasn't been confirmed yet. No. the are the two halves of RS, the elder son had the rinnengan aswell as RS.
It was implied that Nagato got the rinnengan cause they were literally Madara's eyes. Meaning Madara developed the rinnengan and took his eyes out of his head and gave them to Nagato

Megapithicanthrope

December 23, 2011, 10:48 PM

I can't see the story ending this way. Abolition of the seperate countries has never been the goal of the story. Peace between them has. I think Naruto will become the Hokage but he's still got a long way to go before he gets there.

And I just can't picture Naruto defeating Sasuke. I have a sense that their duel is imminent at this point (what with Sasuke entering the battlefield and all) but I don't think Naruto is going to be strong enought to beat him. I'm hoping to see Naruto and the Nine Tails cooperating and the Nine Tails' Yin chakra restored. I don't think the fight will last more than a few mintues otherwise.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

Senju Dna could very well be requied, but it hasn't been confirmed yet. No. the are the two halves of RS, the elder son had the rinnengan aswell as RS.
It was implied that Nagato got the rinnengan cause they were literally Madara's eyes. Meaning Madara developed the rinnengan and took his eyes out of his head and gave them to Nagato

That's true about the Older Brother's eyes but remember that the Sharingan can use Izanagi which is a technique derived from the Sage's Creation of all Things ability. Thus, the Sharingan can be seen as the descendant of the Older Brother's original dojutsu and still equating to being roughly one half of the Rinnegan.

I guess I always assumed Madara kept his eyes in his head since Tobi still had his original Sharingan in the right eye socket. I think he may have lost the left one in his duel with Hashirama. I always figured Nagato's were his own because he had them from childhood.

Rikudou King

December 24, 2011, 12:01 AM

No it doesn't. There's never been an instant in the manga where the Sharingan has become a Rinnegan without Senju DNA being present. Tobi has Hashirama's Senju DNA, thus he can use the Rinnegan. Madara gained Hashirama's DNA and then he gained the ability to use the Rinnegan. Nagato gained the Rinnegan because as an Uzumaki he had atleast a bit of Senju DNA in his blood, no matter how diluted. The eldest son of Rikudou Sennin was the first to have a magical doujutsu and that wasn't the Rinnegan and, even if it was, he still had similar DNA to his younger brother and his father, meaning he had both Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Who in the manga has unlocked the Rinnegan without having some form of Senju DNA? Who has unlocked it just by gaining the EMS? Keep in mind only two ninja in the entire manga have had the EMS mind you. I was under the impression that Nagato didn't actually achieve the Rinnegan, but was instead given Madara's Rinnegan by Tobi, thus the whole "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" statement and the reason why it was always shown active.

chilibun

December 24, 2011, 12:09 AM

I was under the impression that Nagato didn't actually achieve the Rinnegan, but was instead given Madara's Rinnegan by Tobi, thus the whole "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" statement and the reason why it was always shown active.

Yea, I'm under the same impression but its hard to confirm it as canon without Kishi giving us more details. It definitely makes sense though especially given Madara's knowledge of Nagato.

ninjabot

December 24, 2011, 12:17 AM

I was under the impression that Nagato didn't actually achieve the Rinnegan, but was instead given Madara's Rinnegan by Tobi, thus the whole "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" statement and the reason why it was always shown active.

That's exactly what happened, that's what I meant. It took his Senjuzumaki DNA to do it, but it took Madara's Sharingan to allow him to go into EMS territory. If Madara would take his EMS and put it in a non Uzumaki, Senju, or Uchiha body, then they'd only get a Sharingan (potentally MS and EMS), but likely no Rinnegan.

Prince Sasuke

December 24, 2011, 12:33 AM

No. They mean Madara already had the rinnengan when he gave Nagato his eyes, not Nagato took Madara EMS and evolved it to the rinnengan.

ninjabot

December 24, 2011, 01:58 AM

No, not evolved it. It was a Rinnegan, but only when it could draw on Senju chakra to TURN it into a Rinnegan. Nagato didn't evolve it, but if Madara would've put his Rinnegan into any other body that didn't have some form of Senju DNA in it, it would simply be a Sharingan/MS. They wouldn't be able to push it to it's final form (Rinnegan) despite the fact that those very same eyes had already done it before inside a different body (Madara's).

Why do you think he chose an Uzumaki to put his eyes in in the first place? Senju DNA is definately a prerequisite. As for this down here:

Like i said, you can't prove my theory wrong.

Sure I have, though I gotta admit it's not my job to prove it in this particular situation. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim in the first place. You said that an Uchiha can gain Rinnegan without Senju DNA yet not one (not a single one) has done it. It's your responsibility to back up your claim. I've shown you that literally everyone who's ever had the Rinnegan has had both the Sharingan aswell as Senju DNA.

Madara EMS evolved to Rinnengan with or without Senju Dna. The point is EMS evoles, it has not been stated that one need senju dna to obtain the rinnnegan has it?? a lot of things are implied.
EMS gives birth to a completely new Dojutsu http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/9 it can be implied that new DOJUTSU is the Rinnengan. I mean how many other Dojutsu are out there??

Doujutsu means eye technique. Not eye. That's why in most translations you'll see that Itachi states Madara gained "a new power".

Dōjutsu (瞳術; Literally meaning "Eye Techniques") are genetic ninja abilities that utilise the eyes, granting the wielder ocular abilities. Being a by-product of specific kekkei genkai, dōjutsu are not classified as one of the major jutsu types. They do not require the use of hand seals and sometimes facilitate in the use or defence against genjutsu, taijutsu and ninjutsu and then defeat his or her opponent. All known dōjutsu also provide the user with some unique abilities, such as an extended field of vision or predictive capabilities. The use of dōjutsu consumes chakra.

Even worse is the panel in your own manga scan where it states, and I quote:

The transplant also gave birth to a completely new doujutsu. Obviously the "exchange" could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power.

So even if what you say is true, and gaining a new eye is all that happens, the bolded clearly says that gaining the eyes from another person isn't all it takes for the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan to turn into the Rinnegan. We know what else it takes to gain the Rinnegan when you've already got the EMS: Senju DNA.

Now, I know we have to wait until they show us proof down the road... but when that day comes, if I'm wrong, I'll change my avatar to a damn Naruto one.

shafagh

December 24, 2011, 03:01 AM

Well , I think EMS can involved to Rinnegan but without special body wouldn't use true power of it ... like Izanagi , Tobi said Izanagi is an uchiha forbidden technique so that mean uchiha's members could use it ; but without senju power , their Izanagi were incomplete ....

( IMO if they couldn't use it , their leaders didn't need to forbid it ... for example : we living earth so we don't need any law about how to living in sun's surface , because we can't living on it !!! )

Megapithicanthrope

December 24, 2011, 05:05 AM

I never thought Madara literally gave Nagato his own eyes. Wouldn't Nagato be exhausted after using them like Kakashi? I guess his being an Uzumaki might make a difference but I always compared him more to Yamato. The extent of their abilities always seemed more similar to me.

ninjabot

December 24, 2011, 07:07 AM

^Remember, Kakashi has a naturally small chakra reserve in addition to the Sharingan's constant chakra drain and we know from experience in the manga that Nagato most certainly has anything but a small chakra reserve. His chakra reserve is massive.

Prince Sasuke

December 24, 2011, 08:26 AM

No, not evolved it. It was a Rinnegan, but only when it could draw on Senju chakra to TURN it into a Rinnegan. Nagato didn't evolve it, but if Madara would've put his Rinnegan into any other body that didn't have some form of Senju DNA in it, it would simply be a Sharingan/MS. They wouldn't be able to push it to it's final form (Rinnegan) despite the fact that those very same eyes had already done it before inside a different body (Madara's).

Why do you think he chose an Uzumaki to put his eyes in in the first place? Senju DNA is definately a prerequisite. As for this down here:

Sure I have, though I gotta admit it's not my job to prove it in this particular situation. Burden of proof is on the one making the claim in the first place. You said that an Uchiha can gain Rinnegan without Senju DNA yet not one (not a single one) has done it. It's your responsibility to back up your claim. I've shown you that literally everyone who's ever had the Rinnegan has had both the Sharingan aswell as Senju DNA.

Doujutsu means eye technique. Not eye. That's why in most translations you'll see that Itachi states Madara gained "a new power".

Dōjutsu (瞳術; Literally meaning "Eye Techniques") are genetic ninja abilities that utilise the eyes, granting the wielder ocular abilities. Being a by-product of specific kekkei genkai, dōjutsu are not classified as one of the major jutsu types. They do not require the use of hand seals and sometimes facilitate in the use or defence against genjutsu, taijutsu and ninjutsu and then defeat his or her opponent. All known dōjutsu also provide the user with some unique abilities, such as an extended field of vision or predictive capabilities. The use of dōjutsu consumes chakra.

Even worse is the panel in your own manga scan where it states, and I quote:

The transplant also gave birth to a completely new doujutsu. Obviously the "exchange" could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power.

So even if what you say is true, and gaining a new eye is all that happens, the bolded clearly says that gaining the eyes from another person isn't all it takes for the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan to turn into the Rinnegan. We know what else it takes to gain the Rinnegan when you've already got the EMS: Senju DNA.

Now, I know we have to wait until they show us proof down the road... but when that day comes, if I'm wrong, I'll change my avatar to a damn Naruto one.
I've read that page at least fifty times and must have over looked the bolded part every single time. Which is the part that give your claim more plausible then mine. But the next few pages, Itachi says Madara took control of the Uchiha clan and became known as the strongest shinobi in the world. Well he had all that power with just MS, EMS didn't make him any stronger that we know of. So EMS has to do more then be the access to Rinnengan.right?

DementedKirby

December 24, 2011, 12:44 PM

I think that the absolution of the villages will be a first step to peace. However, in the beginning, when the clans created villages that didn't stop the hate. A good example is the Senju / Uchiha. However, it's the only example shown in the manga. So, being as the Uchiha is practically extinct and the only other Senju shown is Tsunade, true peace will be obtained through absolution. One world order will mean no squabbles over land or resources, etc.

Megapithicanthrope

December 24, 2011, 02:47 PM

I don't think it's neccessary to unite the countries under one government. They simply have to get along and coexist peacefully such as with Konoha and Suna in the present story. A one world government is absolutelly no guarantee of peace. They can still squabble amongst themselves just as easily. I don't think the removal of the Uchiha and/or Senju from the world stage will change anything either nor is it neccessary for peace. I fully expect to see Sasuke carry a redeemed Uchiha clan with a new legacy into the future.

DementedKirby

December 24, 2011, 03:44 PM

I doubt all of those things. How many peace treaties have there been between countries and neither of them were honored. Iwa betrayed Konoha and their treaty, Suna betrayed Konoha and their treaty, there are leaders such as Hanzou, the Salamander, who pretty much hated everyone, etc. There have been three great wars before this one and a whole bunch of fights between other villages. If they're united under one rule, eventually there would be no fighting because no one would want to obtain any other clans' secrets (the cause for some wars), it would all be just one country (no cause for fights), etc.

Sasuke's insanity will prevent him from resurrecting or redeeming his clan. He's already a wanted criminal and has only helped in continuing to smear the Uchiha name, along with Madara and Itachi. If Sasuke has simply "killed" Itachi and have been done with it, then the Uchiha would've been redeemed. But no, Sasuke had to go and piss off A. Also, in order to continue a clan you need clansmen. Sasuke has already a horde of moist kunoichi all antsy to obtain his seed. He could've just impregnated Karin, Sakura, Ino, etc and created more Uchiha. He wants to kill everyone. He's hellbent on it. So no cleansing of the Uchiha name and no resurrection of his clan.

As for who will become the world leader, it would be just as they chose the main general for the coalition. Instead of kage there would simply be elders or council, just like in a normal village anyway. There might be conspiracies and such in the new world nation (like how Danzou wanted to eliminate Sarutobi or Tsunade), how Tobi took over the Mist, and how there was a civil war in the Rain, but nothing as extensive as what's happened in the past.

Joint nation = no hokage. No hokage = no fulfillment of Naruto's childish dream of becoming hokage. Being set straight by Itachi = oh snap, hokage isn't what i thought it'd be, caring more about one countryman than all the rest of them = suicidal. Suicide = death which in turn = no hokage.

ninjabot

December 24, 2011, 06:02 PM

I've read that page at least fifty times and must have over looked the bolded part every single time. Which is the part that give your claim more plausible then mine. But the next few pages, Itachi says Madara took control of the Uchiha clan and became known as the strongest shinobi in the world. Well he had all that power with just MS, EMS didn't make him any stronger that we know of. So EMS has to do more then be the access to Rinnengan.right?

Ofcourse the EMS will do something other than turning into the Rinnegan, as it's stated to grant a new power. And it'll be powerful alright, that's why I think even if Sasuke does gain Rinnegan, it won't be for his fight with Naruto. I think they'll fight eachother before the last antagonist character is defeated, and I think their final powerups won't be reached until that last fight. Sasuke's EMS could grant him anything from a bigger chakra reserve, to a S/T jutsu, to a new attack, to a new summon contract. We don't know. But we DO know it'll be strong enough that it'll put him on par with Naruto's strength whenever they actually fight.

Joint nation = no hokage. No hokage = no fulfillment of Naruto's childish dream of becoming hokage. Being set straight by Itachi = oh snap, hokage isn't what i thought it'd be, caring more about one countryman than all the rest of them = suicidal. Suicide = death which in turn = no hokage.

While I don't think he'll be Hokage, I wouldn't go as far as to say he's gonna die without realizing his dream of being loved by everyone (it's kinda already happened). It's like how everyone says Sasuke has to die, and that if he dies Naruto's dream of "saving" him isn't forefiet aslong as he helped him redeem himself before he died. The same works here: Naruto doesn't need the title of Hokage, he just needs to live by the tenets that the Hokage represents. Will of Fire, fighting to protect the Leaf and all that. Even if he's not the "funny hat and robe" type of Hokage he'll still be damn Savior of The Free World, which is even better.

DementedKirby

December 24, 2011, 08:32 PM

Exactly, however being loved by everyone produced mixed feelings inside him (waterfall of truth). It's almost as if he wasn't used to it and/or didn't really want it. When confronted by Itachi on what it takes to be hokage, he listened to him, but you could tell that he really didn't agree with Itachi. Naruto's still gonna be one who's gonna wanna take everything on and off of everyone else (he asked Tsunade to heal his clone instead of just letting the kage take on Madara). O'onoki and the other kage had to set him straight and remind him again of what his role was. Then he poofed his clone and finally reached Tobi. He's been told from every smart person and capable shinobi in the series to forget Sasuke and he isn't. He's not gonna be one to take advice from any member of his council and what's the point of being the leader of a ninja village if you're gonna fight for everyone? Therefor I think that Naruto still doesn't get it.

He can't be hokage on strength and popularity alone. He needs the jounin vote. And, even though the best jounin in Konoha know that he's someone who can convince people of anything and he's the strongest ninja currently in Konoha, they know that he's not ready to become Hokage (besides, Naruto's only 16 anyways). He's gonna face Sasuke before being old enough to even be considered for the title. Naruto's gonna either have no other choice but to kill Sasuke or die with Sasuke because it's obvious that Sasuke isn't gonna kill Naruto (in the sense that that won't be what Kishimoto's gonna do). Given Sasuke's mental trajectory in the manga I doubt he's gonna join forces with anyone to take on any evildoer in the series.

Dutchy

December 24, 2011, 11:10 PM

Since the Sharingan seems to be powered by emotion and hate is always trumped by love, I think that it would make sense for Naruto to sacrifice either his life or power for Sasuke thus unleashing the Uchiha's true power. Also, during Naruto's rasenshuriken training it was been implied that that Naruto's power would make Sasuke's own more powerful.

DementedKirby

December 25, 2011, 06:06 PM

Hate isn't always trumped by love in Naruto. Madara is still a hateful bastard, Tobi is obviously a heartless bastard, and Sasuke's definitely off the deep-end insane so he's not gonna get all teletubby lovey dovey any time soon.

shafagh

December 26, 2011, 02:33 AM

rukori

December 26, 2011, 07:04 PM

There's no way it'll end so boring.... Naruto will DEFINITELY become hokage

DementedKirby

December 26, 2011, 11:21 PM

well , an insane Sasuke is more human than a angel - I mean , Savior, child of prophecy , next Hokage , best jinchuriki , Minato's child and ... well , he has so many titles so I can't remember his name easily ; Oh I remember his name , his name is Naruto - , so humans can be effect by their emotions ( actually , Sasuke's emotion make him insane )

Naruto's megalomania, i.e. what you consider to be child of prophecy, etc., is actually just as insane as Sasuke. It's the exact same thing - just different poles. Sasuke is obsessed on death and destruction and Naruto is obsessed with love and peace. Same exact thing. Naruto even says it himself constantly throughout the series. If not for Iruka, they could've just as easily been against each other but on different sides.

People are too quick to attack Naruto because he's the goody-two-shoes hero of the story and Sasuke started off as being an awesome, calculating badass. Characters change and evolve in the story. Sasuke lost his mind and became insane, but Naruto believing he can take the hate of the world on his shoulders - all alone - he's just as insane.

shafagh

December 27, 2011, 11:24 AM

Naruto's megalomania, i.e. what you consider to be child of prophecy, etc., is actually just as insane as Sasuke. It's the exact same thing - just different poles. Sasuke is obsessed on death and destruction and Naruto is obsessed with love and peace. Same exact thing. Naruto even says it himself constantly throughout the series. If not for Iruka, they could've just as easily been against each other but on different sides.

People are too quick to attack Naruto because he's the goody-two-shoes hero of the story and Sasuke started off as being an awesome, calculating badass. Characters change and evolve in the story. Sasuke lost his mind and became insane, but Naruto believing he can take the hate of the world on his shoulders - all alone - he's just as insane.

sorry , but , IMO Naruto achieve his goal only with Talk no jutsu ... even in recent chapter he become friend with a bijuu only by 5- 8 dialogue ... so IMO he isn't a hero , he is only main character that author solving his problems without any trouble ,,, Itachi , Nagato , Bijuus and .... but Sasuke problem is more realistic ... he want avenge his family's death but those elder have their ninjas and they protect them without any question ... even his master support those elder after hearing truth about that massacre ... even that angel ( Savior ... ) didn't bother himself about asking truth from Hokage or those elder ( Why !? because he didn't care !! )

Sasuke can become insane because he isn't main character and he has many enemy ( for sure who try to take down a country by himself is crazy ) but Savior hasn't this problem ... because Kishi will solving his problems without any trouble ...

people relying him with only 5 -10 dialogue , his enemy become dumb and .....

..................

So I think you know my opinion about this topic ,,,, Naruto won't become Hokage because kishi want make him above all of kages ( All of Kages not only Hokages ))

DementedKirby

December 31, 2011, 09:49 AM

Naruto probably didn't ask any of the elders because Kakashi told him not to (so did Yamato) and Naruto's not as dumb anymore. He knows that if he poked around asking questions than the elders would know that the truth got out and Itachi's mission/sacrifice would've been an utter failure.

As for his talk no jutsu solving anything, even Shikaku told him that Tobi isn't someone he can talk to or reason with like Nagato. Naruto's simply gotta go kick his ass. Also, Naruto himself knows that not everyone can be talked to. He finally came to terms with that with Sasuke. He said he wasn't gonna waste his time dialoguing with him. He's just gonna kill him.

shafagh

December 31, 2011, 12:37 PM

well ,
I think it is useless to discuss about " Uchiha Genocide " because you and someone like you will using "greater good " ideology ( and I think it is a ridiculous idea ) ... IMO that was a " Uchiha Genocide " not " Itachi's mission/sacrifice " , so I have other view and I can't accept your logic ...

but I have ask2 questions :

1- If Naruto could accept genocide of Uchiha clan so easily ( for a greater good ) , why he couldn't accept Sasuke as a International criminal !? at least Uchiha didn't make any crimes but Sasuke already make it .....

2- Itachi's objective was , keep world in peace ( prevent of 4th war ) , but why he being summon in 4th great war !? killing of all Uchiha solved anything !?

Uchiha_Blood

December 31, 2011, 12:49 PM

1- If Naruto could accept genocide of Uchiha clan so easily ( for a greater good ) , why he couldn't accept Sasuke as a International criminal !? at least Uchiha didn't make any crimes but Sasuke already make it .....

2- Itachi's objective was , keep world in peace ( prevent of 4th war ) , but why he being summon in 4th great war !? killing of all Uchiha solved anything !?

1- Because the Uchiha's wanted to overthrow the Hokage with a civil war for their selfish reasons ( thus making Tobi's and Danzou's interests ), and by doing that they would have started an inner conflict that would have lead to their genocide, but at the price of greatly weakening Konoha, that would've been an easy target for the other nations.
Since they would've all died either way, they decided to murder them all without all the damage a civil war would bring.
Sasuke instead wanted a personal revenge, and foolishly attacked a summit with all the 5 Kages. Itachi prevented a war, Sasuke helped start one

2- Itachi's objective was to save Konoha and his brother, he saved the village from an enourmous threat and gifted his brother with the strongest means to survive ( his hateful attitude and the Mangekyou Sharingan ). He may have not do a perfect job ( hell Sarutobi did some pretty awful decisions as Hokage, and he was far less experienced and old and wise than Itachi ) but he managed to do what he wanted to

shafagh

December 31, 2011, 01:29 PM

1- Because the Uchiha's wanted to overthrow the Hokage with a civil war for their selfish reasons

it is off topic but ... selfish reasons !? those elders were trying to wipe out them ... so you saying they should stand still and waiting for a night to get wipe out ( unfortunately they were so slow and .... ) ..... s

o I have another question : if you was an uchiha , what would you do !?

2- Itachi's objective was to save Konoha and his brother, he saved the village from an enourmous threat and gifted his brother with the strongest means to survive ( his hateful attitude and the Mangekyou Sharingan ).

IMO That Sasuke died in that night and the new person was born .... a person that his heart is full of hatred and his mind is full of anger ... so Itachi's little brother died in that bloody night ...

Itachi is true dictator who want erase someone else mind with illusion and force him to become dog of his enemy (konoha ) ... and that little useless Saviour to accept that way was worse than him >>> so I can explain Itachi's personally with this : an selfish person who think he is above all others and he allowed to deciding for others ... exactly like Naruto ... IMO Itachi = Naruto ...

and now Itachi's action become Sasuke and now he is a threat for all o world ( well , actually for konoha and their ally )

....................

IMO you really believe to "jungle law " ( or " Forest Act " >> well my English isn't good ) and I think you are a dangerous person ...

DementedKirby

December 31, 2011, 01:39 PM

Why are you even trying to find sense in the logic of a 16 year old simpleton? The adults in the series clearly have a firm grip on logic and strategy. Do you honestly expect that from Naruto? That's the design of his character. He's a kid who puts heart before logic. Even so, if he doesn't understand something he usually does (eventually). If all the characters were the same, it'd be a pretty dull story. Simple as that.

I find it quite entertaining that there are people who expect Naruto to possess some intelligence on league with Sir Isaac Newton...

Uchiha_Blood

December 31, 2011, 02:01 PM

it is off topic but ... selfish reasons !? those elders were trying to wipe out them ... so you saying they should stand still and waiting for a night to get wipe out ( unfortunately they were so slow and .... ) ..... s

o I have another question : if you was an uchiha , what would you do !?

The elders wanted to wipe them out because, as I said, the Uchihas wanted a civil war. While the Senjus and later the advisors wanted to isolate them, we saw how Sarutobi wanted a pacific resolution of the conflict. The Uchiha's didn't want to, so Itachi was ordered to kill them all. Of course the Uchiha's aren't all to blame, almost half the blame was to be shared by Danzou and the elders, but Uchiha's aren't good or innocent, not by a long shot.
If I were an Uchiha, instead of being a prideful and useless clowns ( like the ones that attempted to arrest Itachi, and Itachi's father as well ) I would've tried to be a ninja on my own.
Search for Itachi's speech during the VOTE flashback, and you will see one of the reasons why Uchihas were terminated

IMO That Sasuke died in that night and the new person was born .... a person that his heart is full of hatred and his mind is full of anger ... so Itachi's little brother died in that bloody night ...

Itachi is true dictator who want erase someone else mind with illusion and force him to become dog of his enemy (konoha ) ... and that little useless Saviour to accept that way was worse than him >>> so I can explain Itachi's personally with this : an selfish person who think he is above all others and he allowed to deciding for others ... exactly like Naruto ... IMO Itachi = Naruto ...

and now Itachi's action become Sasuke and now he is a threat for all o world ( well , actually for konoha and their ally )

....................

IMO you really believe to "jungle law " ( or " Forest Act " >> well my English isn't good ) and so I think you are a dangerous person ...

Yes, to sacrifice his family, his life in the village and everything else and die as a traitor is the epitome of selfishness.
And he is the one that made the speech about how Naruto can't do everything on his own and that should rely and trust on his friends.

Of course Itachi made a mistake with Sasuke ( I said so myself in the previous post, and Itachi himself said it (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/11) ) but, as Tobi stated, he valued his brother's life more than the village, and so he wanted to make him the strongest. But since Sasuke's isn't as strong mentally ( for plot induced reasons ) he decided that, should he be tainted by Tobi, to ensure a mean to survival for Konoha. Manipulative and wrong, of course.

And funny how you seems to think that Naruto knowed what Kotoamatsukami was and how worked, since here (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/550/2) he seems pretty surprised and here he says that he will take care of Sasuke, not Kotoamatsukami (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/549/10). And that he will, hopefully not killing himself and Sasuke off. And I sincerely hope it will not end in a dumb way like Sasuke donating his eyes to Naruto or some other BS like that, I really wish for an happy ending.

As for the elders, I don't they that, with Danzou's death, they will ever be shown again, if not with some flashback. They made their time, and Sasuke achieved his revenge by killing Danzou.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

Why are you even trying to find sense in the logic of a 16 year old simpleton? The adults in the series clearly have a firm grip on logic and strategy. Do you honestly expect that from Naruto? That's the design of his character. He's a kid who puts heart before logic. Even so, if he doesn't understand something he usually does (eventually). If all the characters were the same, it'd be a pretty dull story. Simple as that.

I find it quite entertaining that there are people who expect Naruto to possess some intelligence on league with Sir Isaac Newton...

My point exactly, two 16 years old boys with screwed up pasts and ppl expect them to be adult, all mature and cool-headed.
If I think back, when I was 16 I wasn't not mature nor cool-headed, at that age one is a little more than a child. If they were 30, then one would have every right to bash them

shafagh

December 31, 2011, 02:50 PM

wow ... as I predict , we can't accept each others logic and ideas >>> نرود میخ آهنین در سنگ >>> don't try to use google translete for this ... because the result will be worse than my English knowledge ... ( I Test it )

he valued his brother's life more than the village, and so he wanted to make him the strongest

another sign of itachi selfishness ...

and what about Sasuke's opinion , will and ideas ...
are you saying Sasuke is Itachi's puppet because Itachi liked him !?

I don't remember itachi ask anything about Sasuk's opinion , idea in entire of manga ....

Yes, to sacrifice his family, his life in the village and everything else and die as a traitor is the epitome of selfishness.
And he is the one that made the speech about how Naruto can't do everything on his own and that should rely and trust on his friends.

well , you can't understand me , I believe it was a " Genocide " and Uchiha action was normal , because they didn't want geting wipe out because a suspect and something that they wasn't aware it ( QB's attack )
IMO , konoha's elders start everything not uchiha

as I say we have different view ,,, I watch at the problem from Uchiha view , and you watch at it from Itachi/konoha view ....

Tobi stated, he valued his brother's life more than the village, and so he wanted to make him the strongest. But since Sasuke's isn't as strong mentally ( for plot induced reasons ) he decided that, should he be tainted by Tobi, to ensure a mean to survival for Konoha. Manipulative and wrong, of course.

well , I think it is easy to make a great bad guy and saying all thing is his failure ... he was behind QB attack but all thing is his failure !? Konoha and Uchiha had their problems ...

And funny how you seems to think that Naruto knowed what Kotoamatsukami was and how worked, since here he seems pretty surprised and here he says that he will take care of Sasuke, not Kotoamatsukami. And that he will, hopefully not killing himself and Sasuke off. And I sincerely hope it will not end in a dumb way like Sasuke donating his eyes to Naruto or some other BS like that, I really wish for an happy ending.

that wasn't funny , that only show Itachi and Nartuo selfishness , why they should decide for Sasuke , oh because one of them is Konoha's shadow hero and another is an idiot savior that has Talk no jutsu and Love no jutsu and kishi no jutsu ....

IMO , if Sasuke become konoha dog, that will be saddest ending in all of story that I read it ... at least he killed 14 samuraei , I hope kishi don't revive them .... ( yeah this shonen ... damn , now I asking this from myself " why I didn't know shonen meaning before of reading this manga "... honestly this was first manga I read ... but berserk and vinland saga are my favorite manga ... )

Why are you even trying to find sense in the logic of a 16 year old simpleton? The adults in the series clearly have a firm grip on logic and strategy. Do you honestly expect that from Naruto? That's the design of his character. He's a kid who puts heart before logic. Even so, if he doesn't understand something he usually does (eventually). If all the characters were the same, it'd be a pretty dull story. Simple as that.

I find it quite entertaining that there are people who expect Naruto to possess some intelligence on league with Sir Isaac Newton...

well , he is their savior , he is the one who want save all of world . so his action must having logic , right !?

well , I think our post was off topic , so let end this here ...

DementedKirby

December 31, 2011, 05:13 PM

Naruto alone can't be the savior of the world, which is another reason why he'll die without becoming hokage. The five kage themselves told him to take care of Tobi while they take care of Madara (and by defect, Kabuto). Naruto's not the only hero in this war. Naruto's not the only hero in the struggle. There are other ninja who have done their part and who've sacrificed themselves. If he were to be the "sole hero of anything", he's the hero of Konoha for not only defeating Pain but the fact that Nagato resurrected the fallen. Also, Naruto is credited with being the savior of the Land of Waves, however, he wasn't the only one - all of Team 7 did their part. He was just the most charismatic (plus, he saved the kid and his mom).

Besides, no one's really considering Naruto to be the savior of the world - merely the child of prophecy. What the child of prophecy will do is beyond me. However, how many "child of prophecy" have there been? First it was Minato, then it was Nagato, now it's Naruto. How convenient that the title has changed so many hands. On a second note, I call the child of prophecy to be Minato: he followed Jiraiya's footsteps and he provided the seed that created Naruto. He also sealed Kuruma in Naruto as a baby. Minato put all the gears in motion to defeat Tobi so many years ago. The true child of prophecy is not Naruto. But that's just a side rant :p.

Prince Sasuke

December 31, 2011, 07:18 PM

There is no way Naruto will die... Sasuke either for that matter. if either of these tow die, Naruto life story would be completely wasted.

DementedKirby

January 01, 2012, 11:20 AM

Minato's life story wasn't wasted, he's still the legend of Konoha - of the world, in fact. 'Cause he's known the world over. And he hasn't even had contact with as many ninja as Naruto has. So Naruto dying doesn't kill his fame, legend, or story. And we all know that Sasuke's gonna die by the end of the manga.

young simba

January 01, 2012, 01:47 PM

Naruto isn't going to die, but I think he will not be hokage either. The ninja system is changing, and i think there will be no need for a kage over the village, but maybe representatives from each nation.

DementedKirby

January 01, 2012, 03:45 PM

Prince Sasuke

January 01, 2012, 04:36 PM

DementedKirby

January 01, 2012, 05:48 PM

If Minato's life was never told why did A know he sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto as if it were common knowledge?

Prince Sasuke

January 01, 2012, 06:40 PM

One incident is not a mans life story. Sasuke and Naruto... Maybe Madara and Itachi are only the people LIFE story has been told.

DementedKirby

January 01, 2012, 07:26 PM

What life story of Itachi? Itachi's story was merely how he was sent to massacre his clan. One. Incident. Just like how you claim Minato's was.

Rikudou King

January 01, 2012, 09:49 PM

Thank you; that's what I've been saying this whole time. Ever since it was brought up, it's always been linked together that it's the ninja system itself that breeds hatred. If the bijuu are peaceful and aren't targeted, people wouldn't need to use jutsu to fend them off. If there's no ninja system there wouldn't be ninja villages squabbling over missions, resources, secrets, jutsu, power, etc. Since no ninja system = no hidden villages, that in turn equals no village leader, i.e., no kage. I think you mean ninjutsu itself, since the ninjas were fighting and such long before the ninja system was formed. The formation of the villages didn't seem to change anything expect bring all the various clans and groups together under a central command as they settled down.

Prince Sasuke

January 01, 2012, 10:02 PM

What life story of Itachi? Itachi's story was merely how he was sent to massacre his clan. One. Incident. Just like how you claim Minato's was.

1. Itachi life story was lived not told, and Madara filled in any questions.
2. Minato was dead before the Manga started. One incident is not even close to what we witness from itachi.

DementedKirby

January 02, 2012, 02:02 AM

Itachi's massacre of the Uchiha happened before the manga started, so it wasn't "lived" either. It was shown in flashbacks - be they Sasuke's or Tobi's retelling. Just as Minato's sacrifice was cleared up and filled by Kushina. It's still the same thing. In fact, you're cementing my claim and not disproving it ;)

Prince Sasuke

January 02, 2012, 08:16 AM

Nope, your proving mine by mentioning one incident by each character that happen before the manga started. Itachi's involvement with sasuke,naruto and akatsuki DURING the manga proves that his life story is still being told. Even his part in the war is still telling his life story... While Minato died 16 years ago and stop the Kyuubi from destroying kohona. Fact is we don't know any more about Minato then we know about the First Hokage, or the second. If you believe there life story has been told, your just fooling yourself.I

DementedKirby

January 02, 2012, 05:48 PM

Minato's memory appearing and helping Naruto reseal the Kyuubi is just as significant. A living memory and a resurrected person is the same plot device.

Prince Sasuke

January 02, 2012, 06:00 PM

Minato's memory appearing and helping Naruto reseal the Kyuubi is just as significant. A living memory and a resurrected person is the same plot device.

Yet you continue to talk about the SAME incident. It dosen't matter if it happen in real life or memory.... its not his life story,and that all we know.

DementedKirby

January 02, 2012, 08:33 PM

So Itachi appearing once to try and get Naruto is part of a "life story"? That's a mere hiccup if anything. What groundbreaking event is that?

Liof

January 03, 2012, 02:15 AM

Prince Sasuke

January 03, 2012, 09:18 AM

So Itachi appearing once to try and get Naruto is part of a "life story"? That's a mere hiccup if anything. What groundbreaking event is that?

What about the time he spared kakashi? What about the time he faced naruto and kakashi stoping them from saving Gaara? What about his interactions with akatsuki? What about the real reason why he came back to the village? What about his epic battle with sasuke and the info he shared about MS and Madara?
That's not including everything he has done in the war! Or the truth that Madara revealed about him.

DementedKirby

January 03, 2012, 12:30 PM

idk about this one ... there could very well be an alliance for a couple of years after which an incident occurs. Which leads em back to the old system.
Cause I really would like to see Naruto as a Jman type mentor in the end. Passing on the peace problem to the next generation.

If that were to happen it might be a nice way to continue the manga. However, Naruto not bringing about ultimate peace to the world is kind of counterproductive to the whole manga. Jiraiya left the situation as an open problem to all his students, two of which left it to Naruto as well (Minato and Nagato). Naruto not solving the problem, being the titular character, is pointless, in my opinion. If anything, it could be how the Sage of the Six Paths left it to his sons. Naruto can merely have someone to take his place as symbol of peace, or someone to make sure peace endures. Maybe that's what he'll do with Konohamaru. I mean, that kid is bound to be destined for greatness. He's a Sarutobi, plus, he'll probably be Naruto's student. Epic!

Uchiha_Blood

January 03, 2012, 02:09 PM

Naruto will become a head of something, if after 500 and more chapters we have Itachi that gives a speech about becoming Hokage then we can assume that Naruto's wish will become true, very much like how we see Sakura that loves Sasuke even after he tried to kill her time and time again.
He's the main character, and shonen's main always achieve their goals. It gives a message, a good message. Naruto as a hermit would be nice, but it would be a crappy ending imho since he would've failed, period. I don't know if he will become Hokage, as many said, and I agree with them, this war seems like the end for the village sistem, as it leads to an unified shinobi nation.
And talking about Konohamaru, the very promise Naruto and he shared is another hint and motivation, since it was introduced from the second chapter ( if I remember right, Kono was introduced even before Team 7 ) and repeated costantly.

I hope that Kishi will not create an ending where nothing is decided, like Naruto and Sasuke agrees to fight again, and Naruto continues training postponing his Hokage's incoronation while searching for Sasuke, with the world at peace. Everyone is happy since the ending is open to the imagination of the reader, and Kishi would not face any criticism for an unpopular ending.
With a series this big, and with all the money that it brings, there is very little space to important decisions, since mangakas are slaves of the editors and the like.
Toriyama is the perfect example, as we all know that he was "forced" to continue Dragonball Z. I, for my part, really hope for a definite, happy ending for both Sasuke and Naruto, since, after years of sufference and everything, they definitely deserve a happy life