Discussion Kishi tries to hard to justify Sasuke's character (Rant) [Archive]

sho87

December 03, 2011, 08:19 PM

Hi there, anyone ever think about how much Kishimoto seemingly faps to Sasuke getting away with all these crimes, his general arrogance and self entitlement and being redeemed is wrong and unfair, well I'm here to clear that misconception.

I think the main reason we call Sasuke a badly written and despicable character, is that Kishimoto writes him off as someone who’s inevitable fate is set in stone and is can’t do anything about plot wise, because Sasuke is someone who is choosen by the villain to represent the core foundation of hate, Kishimoto finds various excuses to make Sasuke potent to this ideal as a main character, making him fail and suffer all because the author is desperately trying to portray an epic clash of peace vs. hatred with Sasuke as the scapegoat in a manga that so hopes to solidify a legendary main hero and his story on how he defeated and won over his de facto arch rival and anti thesis.

Sasuke’s characters leaves a lot to be desired(he could have been more than generic emo rival who is a genius), but he’s written to justify Naruto’s character and goals, to make him the centerpiece of the standard example of hope, friendship, bonds, destiny and hardwork. Nothing Sasuke does is character driven on choice alone, Sasuke blames the hate he’s become and solves all his problems by getting revenge or venturing out to settle some personal score making him one dimensional in his role in the manga.

Notice how Naruto has the most develop outside of becoming Hokage and being acknowledged, he’s always doing the greatest adventures and being useful for different things. But Sasuke is always brooding and frowning at the world trying to gain more power.

I think Kishimoto loves Naruto so much, he uses Sasuke to show his readers which path to him is the most tragic and failing in life, while Naruto is a character that we relate to and find our self immersed in his story and life, being the hero and actually having strong social themes in the manga.

So Sasuke doesn’t deserve this, I believe Kishimoto made Sasuke to over glorify his blonde headed avatar so that the hero can become Jesus status, while the dark and tortured emo basks in his transcendent light scowling at the envy he holds to Naruto.

ninjabot

December 04, 2011, 04:36 AM

I agree to a certain extent, if only because Sasuke was never supposed to exist in the first place, but was created intentionally to be a foil to Naruto. There wasn't a rival type character in Kishimoto's manga, but he was convinced by his editor to create one. Then Kishimoto researched what made a good rival in a manga and eventually put those ideas together to create Sasuke as we know him now.

He's designed to be the polar opposite of Naruto, but his use as an antagonist contradicts that, as Naruto is far more emotionally driven than Sasuke is, yet it's Sasuke who's the one being enslaved by his emotions.

The part I don't agree with is why people hate him. It's not because of what Kishimoto has planned for him in the end and the roll he's played: it's because of what he's been doing up to this point. He stole the manga from Naruto for a long time, which would piss off anyone who's a Naruto fan that'd rather see the main character in action. Even worse, Naruto's made at every turn to look inferior to Sasuke to keep the "anti-thesis rivalry" going. From character design, to ninjutsu, to plot, to action scenes, everything. Even when he does something right, he's immediately shown to still be inept (tripping and falling on his face in a fight, forgetting an opponent's abilities 1 minute after just seeing them, showing up to save the day and requiring someone to save him instead).

It wouldn't be such a big problem if Naruto could do the same badass stuff Sasuke does, but in a different way. And even better: stop making Naruto act stupid. Unfortunately he can't, because the downside of having Sasuke act like the complete opposite of Naruto is that both ninja can't go too far out of their defined roles. Naruto may not always be completely inept, but he WILL always be vapid. Sasuke may not always be hate filled in the end, but he WILL always be cool and distant.

chilibun

December 04, 2011, 08:36 PM

@sho87

I disagree. I don't see how Kishi is trying to justify Sasuke's actions anymore than previous villians such Nagato, Gaara, or even Orochimaru. Even the lesser "evil" characters like Hanzou and Danzou are given some type of justifications for their actions. Kishi simply doesn't want his characters or his shinobi world to be so black and white.

I also don't think Sasuke is poorly written at all. I don't understand this notion that all characters are "suppose" to overcome their fate/demons. That's just way too unrealistic for me. Not everybody strives be "good." You can call Sasuke a victim of fate, but he chose his path the moment he left for Orochimaru. If anything, I applaud him for staying his path because unlike everybody else in this manga, he is at least committed. How many times does the villian just change his mind because Naruto gave him some hugs and kisses? Its so stupid. Even the so called embodiment of hate, the Kyuubi, is a weak minded pansy.

juUnior

December 05, 2011, 06:30 AM

I think the main reason we call Sasuke a badly written and despicable character
As I always write about such things mentioned by ppl: 'despicable character'? Yes, indeed, right now definitely for most of the ppl. "Badly written"? Hell no, he is one of the few characters to be written just almost perfectly till now. Those 2 things shouldn't be mixed up as they are 2 different things whether someone likes or hates Sasuke, imo. <I don't even think its imo, its just common logic xd>

Jammin

December 14, 2011, 11:06 AM

ninjabot

December 14, 2011, 02:52 PM

Naruto's irrational loyalty makes sense but everybody else's comes across to me as completely ridiculous. He's not charismatic. He's not preaching some ideal that people believe in.

I agree with most everything up there except for this part (and the terribly written part). The girls were attracted to him, and the guys respected and envied his skill. Likewise there was a sense of loyalty to him because he was from the same village as they were. Shikamaru said it best when he started the "rescue Sasuke" arc. He didn't like him, and he was sure Sasuke didn't like him either, but he was a Konoha ninja, and they were honor-bound to help him. Ontop of that they gave up when it was time to, so that adds more realism to the villagers feelings about Sasuke.

As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be. He's incredibly prideful, he's family oriented, he's driven to a fault, he respects power, and pretty much anything else needed to be known to flesh out his character can be read at a wiki. Infact, they're less biased than me so I'll just link to his personality: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha

xXan

December 14, 2011, 03:22 PM

All i will say here is that Sasuke is fully accountable for his actions but i can understand why he is doing them. Does he deserves a friend like Naruto and getting saved and redeemed in the end? Sure he does.

Personaly i love Sasuke as a caracter and how Kishi is tring justify Sasuke's action to show things from Sasuke's side of view.

Then again i love where the manga is going now. I can't w8 for Sasuke to fight whoever he is going to fight (last chapter, Sasuke moving out).

Delbi

December 14, 2011, 03:41 PM

I would agree with sho87 in that I think Sasuke has not been well written. Terribly written in fact.

But I would not say it's because Kishi favors Naruto because ever since the turtle island arc Naruto's character has suffered almost as much. Naruto and Sasuke have both been so ridiculously polarized into "Hatred" and "Friendship" that the characters themselves have been left by the wayside.

The thing that makes it worse for Sasuke is that there was never much of a character there to begin with. What is really underneath the hatred, desire for revenge, egotism, insecurity? Those are all great things when applied to a character. The problem with Sasuke underneath all those things his character is as shallow as dry river bed.

Sasuke to me is the ultimate example of character that is all style and very little substance.

If you take away vengeance, hatred, arrogance, etc..; and focus on who he is as a person....you get almost nothing. The last time we saw any sign of a character in Sasuke was at the Valley of the End and even that was just a trickle. Every since he's practically been cardboard cutout making an angry face. Even when he fought Sasuke showed almost no underling character, he was all about the moment.

Something that also damages my opinion of him are his relationships with those around him. He is now and always has been emotionally distant, humorless, ill tempered, arrogant, jerk. Naruto's irrational loyalty makes sense but everybody else's comes across to me as completely ridiculous. He's not charismatic. He's not preaching some ideal that people believe in. He was never really a great guy. So people acting like he was, makes him seem even weaker as a character. If he is to lead others he should be doing it for some reason not because being the antagonist somehow entitles him to them!

There is a reason why Sasuke is not much more than a revenge filled asshole, it's because as a child everything he had was taken from him, and Itachi instilled within him that he had to gain power so he could kill him. When he should have been developing his personality and the substance of his actual being, he instead was training and turning himself into a weapon with one goal: kill Itachi.

After that happened, he had nothing left until Tobi starting manipulating him. Sasuke's mind is extremely fragile since he's been continually mind fucked by his brother since he was seven, and then later manipulated by Tobi.

Ask yourself this. What was Gaara before he met Naruto? He wanted to kill people because he was lonely and because he thought he lacked love in his life. Gaara shined as a character when he had his breakthroughs with Naruto and his later his father. Sasuke hasn't quite had that breakthrough yet, although he has come close with Kakashi and Naruto.

So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is.

Jammin

December 14, 2011, 04:11 PM

I agree with most everything up there except for this part (and the terribly written part). The girls were attracted to him, and the guys respected and envied his skill. Likewise there was a sense of loyalty to him because he was from the same village as they were. Shikamaru said it best when he started the "rescue Sasuke" arc. He didn't like him, and he was sure Sasuke didn't like him either, but he was a Konoha ninja, and they were honor-bound to help him. Ontop of that they gave up when it was time to, so that adds more realism to the villagers feelings about Sasuke.

As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be. He's incredibly prideful, he's family oriented, he's driven to a fault, he respects power, and pretty much anything else needed to be known to flesh out his character can be read at a wiki. Infact, they're less biased than me so I'll just link to his personality: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sasuke_Uchiha When I say written terribly I don't mean as Foil or Naruto's anti-thesis. In that role he is functional, though I still would not call him well written even in that regard.

Where I think he is terribly written is as an individual character. In a good character personal motivations, systems of beliefs, relationships with others, and their natural personalities all play into creating a complete being. With Sasuke I just don't think the whole thing has ever come together. His personal motivations barely make sense. His system of beliefs seems to be constantly, and unnaturally, pushed in the most bitter and hate filled direction for narrative reasons, and lost almost completely in all that is his individual personality.

Sasuke's skill and good looks make sense to a degree regarding his relationships with other people but for people to base their relationship with him on that is so unbelievably shallow. And even that is all one directional, being about their relationship to him and never his relationship to them. In order to make meaningful relationships believable such connections need to flow both ways and with Sasuke they almost never do.

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.

-----------------------------------------

And something that scares me in all this is that I'm starting to see similarities to what was done with Sasuke's character and what is currently being done to Naruto's. And I don't like that at all.....

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

There is a reason why Sasuke is not much more than a revenge filled asshole, it's because as a child everything he had was taken from him, and Itachi instilled within him that he had to gain power so he could kill him. When he should have been developing his personality and the substance of his actual being, he instead was training and turning himself into a weapon with one goal: kill Itachi.

After that happened, he had nothing left until Tobi starting manipulating him. Sasuke's mind is extremely fragile since he's been continually mind fucked by his brother since he was seven, and then later manipulated by Tobi.

Ask yourself this. What was Gaara before he met Naruto? He wanted to kill people because he was lonely and because he thought he lacked love in his life. Gaara shined as a character when he had his breakthroughs with Naruto and his later his father. Sasuke hasn't quite had that breakthrough yet, although he has come close with Kakashi and Naruto.

So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is. I have no problem with Sasuke being a "revenge filled asshole" as you put it or a "flawed character". That doesn't make him poorly written, in fact often times such characters are the best written. The problem with Sasuke is that his whole character flows unnaturally and IMO is put together poorly.

Let me throw out some characters I think Kishimoto crafted well. Orochimaru, Kisame, Danzou, Raikage, Sasori, and Deidara.

All of those character's are complete characters. The whole package comes together with each of them. Sasuke despite being far more vital to the plot never manages to seem coherent as a character and other people's actions regarding seem equally unnatural to me. I think he needs his role as Naruto's anti-thesis at this point, and the same goes for Tobi manipulating him, because that's the only thing holding it all together. Without that he would just be a train wreck of character that Kishi would have to kill off just for the sake of getting ride of him. Sasuke the character is dead and left in his place a hate-zombie with no soul.

Now I know that probably sound harsh, but that's the way I see Sasuke at this point. He's more of a plot device than he is a character in my eyes.

-----------------------------------

And as for the example of Garra. His character was always coherent. His pain and loneliness turned to rage and caused him to do terrible things until he learned that what he truly longed for was the kind of connection he saw in Naruto. He was flawed as a person but the flow of his character was not flawed; in fact it was well written.

ninjabot

December 14, 2011, 07:54 PM

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.

Fair enough. The only thing I can say in defense of that is that it's because of the character's role that more of his life can't be fleshed out. He's the rival. He got a huge amount of screen time to flesh out his development as the anti-Naruto, but only enough to show how worse off he's doing mentally and how strong he is in a fight. Inorder to give more layers to him it would've taken even more time showing him and Taka aswell. It would've taken an entire arc of literally just Sasuke reacting to stimuli to give us the kind of character interaction needed to make him as fleshed out as you'd like. And that amount of screentime can't be allocated to just the rival or there'd be a mutiny among fans.

Hell, look how many complaints there were for the amount of screen time he actually DID get.

Also, I don't know how you could say Orochimaru is a more complete character than Sasuke. Just like Sasuke we've seen that a tragedy during childhood screwed him up, and he devoted his life to conquering death, which lead him to do despicable things. The only difference between he and Sasuke is that he's not letting anyone control him. Just like with Sasuke and Taka, everyone beneath him was a tool. That's the extent of his character interaction: using people and killing people on his way to his goal. It's not dead, but it's certainly no more impressive a history. Hell, we don't even see the exact instant he turned batshit crazy. He just kinda... did. With Sasuke it all gels. It all works. Hate switched from a driving force to a controlling one gradually, and there are climaxes in his development that lets you pinpoint and say "Okay, this is the instant he reached maximum insanity". The same can't really be said about Orochimaru IMO.

Though in his defense, just like Sasuke, he was just a tool to set things in motion for Naruto to overcome. We didn't need to know anything at all outside of "Orochimaru is a badguy", which is less than we needed to know about Sasuke.

Rosebunse

December 14, 2011, 08:22 PM

I don't think Kishi is really trying to justify what Sasuke's doing. I think his break down after his fight with Naruto the last time pretty much says that.

He's insane, but also, he's supposed to show the process of what the ninja system does to certain people.

Jammin

December 14, 2011, 08:48 PM

Fair enough. The only thing I can say in defense of that is that it's because of the character's role that more of his life can't be fleshed out. He's the rival. He got a huge amount of screen time to flesh out his development as the anti-Naruto, but only enough to show how worse off he's doing mentally and how strong he is in a fight. Inorder to give more layers to him it would've taken even more time showing him and Taka aswell. It would've taken an entire arc of literally just Sasuke reacting to stimuli to give us the kind of character interaction needed to make him as fleshed out as you'd like. And that amount of screentime can't be allocated to just the rival or there'd be a mutiny among fans.

Hell, look how many complaints there were for the amount of screen time he actually DID get. That's true enough.

Which is one of the reasons I just don't think Sasuke is Kishi's best work overall. Seems to me that characters like Garra, Itachi, Minato, Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade all managed to bring a lot more to the story with a lot less screen time. It seems like Sasuke should be a lot deeper character than he is by now.

Which begs the question, considering where the Naruto/Sasuke focus has taken the series, was all that stuff really worth it? I ask because I truly am not sure.

Also, I don't know how you could say Orochimaru is a more complete character than Sasuke. Just like Sasuke we've seen that a tragedy during childhood screwed him up, and he devoted his life to conquering death, which lead him to do despicable things. The only difference between he and Sasuke is that he's not letting anyone control him. Just like with Sasuke and Taka, everyone beneath him was a tool. That's the extent of his character interaction: using people and killing people on his way to his goal. It's not dead, but it's certainly no more impressive a history. Hell, we don't even see the exact instant he turned batshit crazy. He just kinda... did. With Sasuke it all gels. It all works. Hate switched from a driving force to a controlling one gradually, and there are climaxes in his development that lets you pinpoint and say "Okay, this is the instant he reached maximum insanity". The same can't really be said about Orochimaru IMO.

Though in his defense, just like Sasuke, he was just a tool to set things in motion for Naruto to overcome. We didn't need to know anything at all outside of "Orochimaru is a badguy", which is less than we needed to know about Sasuke. Orochimaru was a charismatic sociopath.

In his mind the world was his playground and all the people in it his playthings. His search for power and knowledge became a motivation onto itself seeking to become more than human. And people followed him because that was an ideal they could understand and because he often valued people the world did not, even if he did so only as tools, experiments, or playthings.

So, though Orochimaru was a crazy ruthless villain, the underlying character was pretty well put together in my opinion. He makes sense from every angle I look at him from.

UchihaHunter

December 14, 2011, 08:50 PM

Where I think he is terribly written is as an individual character. In a good character personal motivations, systems of beliefs, relationships with others, and their natural personalities all play into creating a complete being. With Sasuke I just don't think the whole thing has ever come together. His personal motivations barely make sense. His system of beliefs seems to be constantly, and unnaturally, pushed in the most bitter and hate filled direction for narrative reasons, and lost almost completely in all that is his individual personality.
Um...people have killed people for less than what Sasuke's gone through, so I'm not entirely following you here. He had a happy family, then his older brother took that away from him. The village itself never made an effort to include him in things, etc., he just gained respect due to his Uchiha name and his skills. From the age of what, 7? he's been training to avenge his family. He actually begins to mellow out and realize that there are other things that are important (see him protecting Naruto and Sakura, especially in the fight with Gaara), and twice we see him willing to give up his life to do so (which would negate his life's purpose). Then, right after his shining moment (the fight with Gaara) his brother shows up and mindfucks him again...and what's worse, he treats him as a nuisance and is interested in Naruto. Even after that, it seemed that Kakashi had talked some sense into him, but...we have the Sound 4 encounter. Considering his life's goal was to avenge his family, I'm not sure what you mean by "his personal motivations barely make sense." He lost everything. He sought vengeance.

THEN! After actually achieving his goal, he finds out his brother committed his acts at the behest of the village elders! Knowing how his brother was, remembering his brother crying, blah blah blah, he realizes how messed up Itachi must have felt, and now he seeks vengeance not only for Itachi, but for the clan as a whole, since he believes Tobi's story (which honestly seems to be true outside of the Kyuubi attack being a natural occurrence). His motivations are pretty clear, IMO. They're the clearest thing he has. Then he actually gets the chance to kill one of the ones responsible, and he knows that the village would protect the others...so why not get rid of the village? What have they done for him? Danzou's walking around with tons of sharingan, and he's the freaking Hokage at that point, lol

Sasuke's skill and good looks make sense to a degree regarding his relationships with other people but for people to base their relationship with him on that is so unbelievably shallow.
To be fair, the relationships we saw were with kids 12 and 13 years old, lol...what are you really expecting from children?

And even that is all one directional, being about their relationship to him and never his relationship to them. In order to make meaningful relationships believable such connections need to flow both ways and with Sasuke they almost never do.
He kinda didn't have a family. Naruto didn't have meaningful relationships for quite some time. In fact, Naruto and Sasuke were each other's first meaningful relationship with someone their age, no? And we saw that Sasuke cared a lot for Naruto...but at the end of the day, when he decided to leave the village, he made the choice to move on from that stage in his life.

To be clear I'm not saying that Sasuke doesn't have a personality, relationships, or motivations. He does, but I think those facets of him have become so weak that they no longer allow him to pass as a shell of a believable character, and with him it's been that way since Itachi died.
What do you mean by personality? I'm pretty sure we know Sasuke's personality, it's been roughly the same for a while...it's just that now, his focus is on vengeance, annihilation, etc. rather than still seeking bonds.

And something that scares me in all this is that I'm starting to see similarities to what was done with Sasuke's character and what is currently being done to Naruto's. And I don't like that at all.....
You mean you don't like Uzumaki Jesus? or Christ Naruto? Haha

I have no problem with Sasuke being a "revenge filled asshole" as you put it or a "flawed character". That doesn't make him poorly written, in fact often times such characters are the best written. The problem with Sasuke is that his whole character flows unnaturally and IMO is put together poorly.
I still can't understand what you mean by unnatural.

Let me throw out some characters I think Kishimoto crafted well. Orochimaru, Kisame, Danzou, Raikage, Sasori, and Deidara.
I think I'll have to see why you think these characters were crafted well. I actually think Orochimaru was done VERY well, I just hated that they brought this whole "his parents died" thing into it. Kisame was...he had nothing special of his own until his death. I don't see how he was crafted well. Danzou was done decently considering how short he was on the scene for. I love Raikage, so I'm biased there. Sasori...it felt contrived to me, honestly. All he wanted was someone to embrace him and pass down his art? Then don't freaking kill hundreds of people, hahaha. Deidara also = love, so I can agree there.

The main thing to me is we keep seeing people/creatures who are bad, but then we're supposed to feel sorry for them. I love the unapologetic nature of a Deidara. He knew he was doing asshole shit, but he didn't care. He wanted to express his art. Danzou was never bad, he was just an extremist of a sort. Orochimaru was great until they tried to justify his crap. Just say that he wanted to learn all jutsu and leave it at that. Immortality is trite, but Orochimaru was a great villain, IMO. I think a lot of us would've been more satisfied with him as a final villain than Tobi.

And as for the example of Garra. His character was always coherent. His pain and loneliness turned to rage and caused him to do terrible things until he learned that what he truly longed for was the kind of connection he saw in Naruto. He was flawed as a person but the flow of his character was not flawed; in fact it was well written.
I like Gaara because he's showed more growth than probably anyone else in the manga. However, we've basically seen Sasuke do the same thing, in the opposite direction. Gaara found the connection he wanted, then he strove to become important to others and to build those bonds. He's now probably Naruto's #1 advocate from outside Konoha.

Sasuke, on the other hand, got the connection he wanted, but realized that his goal was more important. And after finding out everything that went down regarding his goal, he's gone in the opposite direction of Gaara. Now he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, similar to how Gaara was all "imma kill you guys for the evulz"

Tl;dr - What about the characters you mentioned made them more believable, etc. than Sasuke?

ninjabot

December 14, 2011, 09:53 PM

Which begs the question, considering where the Naruto/Sasuke focus has taken the series, was all that stuff really worth it? I ask because I truly am not sure.

That's dependant on the reader's personal opinion. I enjoyed Sasuke in the start, so more Sasuke made me happy. From a monetary standpoint it definately payed off, as he's always been in the top 5 in fan lists (in Japan atleast), meaning he'd sell tons of merchandise and bring in/maintain readers. But if you're a Naruto (character) fan then I guess not.

Jammin

December 14, 2011, 10:25 PM

*sigh* I'm sorry in advance for the multipost, this beast is going end up hogging an entire forum page. I solemnly promise to avoid doing it again.:amuse

Um...people have killed people for less than what Sasuke's gone through, so I'm not entirely following you here. He had a happy family, then his older brother took that away from him. The village itself never made an effort to include him in things, etc., he just gained respect due to his Uchiha name and his skills. From the age of what, 7? he's been training to avenge his family. He actually begins to mellow out and realize that there are other things that are important (see him protecting Naruto and Sakura, especially in the fight with Gaara), and twice we see him willing to give up his life to do so (which would negate his life's purpose). Then, right after his shining moment (the fight with Gaara) his brother shows up and mindfucks him again...and what's worse, he treats him as a nuisance and is interested in Naruto. Even after that, it seemed that Kakashi had talked some sense into him, but...we have the Sound 4 encounter. Considering his life's goal was to avenge his family, I'm not sure what you mean by "his personal motivations barely make sense." He lost everything. He sought vengeance.

THEN! After actually achieving his goal, he finds out his brother committed his acts at the behest of the village elders! Knowing how his brother was, remembering his brother crying, blah blah blah, he realizes how messed up Itachi must have felt, and now he seeks vengeance not only for Itachi, but for the clan as a whole, since he believes Tobi's story (which honestly seems to be true outside of the Kyuubi attack being a natural occurrence). His motivations are pretty clear, IMO. They're the clearest thing he has. Then he actually gets the chance to kill one of the ones responsible, and he knows that the village would protect the others...so why not get rid of the village? What have they done for him? Danzou's walking around with tons of sharingan, and he's the freaking Hokage at that point, lol Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.

Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!

He supposedly spends every day and every hour unflinchingly and unquestionably pursuing his dark path. Think about that. Every minute of every hour of days, of years! Yet, not one hint of introspection. No one moment of "Gee, maybe I should move on with my life...." It's ridiculous that's just not the way human emotion works. If it did humanity would have blown the planet up by now.

To be fair, the relationships we saw were with kids 12 and 13 years old, lol...what are you really expecting from children? Exactly my point they aren't 12-13 anymore yet most of them still act like they are. Why in gods name would Suigetsu possibly care about Sasuke? Ask yourself that? Or Ino for that matter? He's a handsome douche-bag she knew in middle-school. His relationships to everyone outside of Naruto, Sakura, Karin, and Juugo have all been silly like that.

He kinda didn't have a family. Naruto didn't have meaningful relationships for quite some time. In fact, Naruto and Sasuke were each other's first meaningful relationship with someone their age, no? And we saw that Sasuke cared a lot for Naruto...but at the end of the day, when he decided to leave the village, he made the choice to move on from that stage in his life. Not having a family doesn't make you emotionally dead to the world. He should still be able to form attachments to people if he isn't a zombie or a robot.

I don't have a problem with the idea of him cutting ties with Konoha either. That's fine. My problem is that people like Suigetsu considering themselves close to Sasuke for no reason. If he treats nobody like a friend, how can they consider themselves his?

What do you mean by personality? I'm pretty sure we know Sasuke's personality, it's been roughly the same for a while...it's just that now, his focus is on vengeance, annihilation, etc. rather than still seeking bonds. Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.

You mean you don't like Uzumaki Jesus? or Christ Naruto? Haha Ouch! Nothing hurts quite like a good analogy.

I suppose, that would make Sasuke the Uchiha Anti-Christ. God, I hate how well that fits.:(

I still can't understand what you mean by unnatural. I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.

And Sasuke declaring revenge against everybody involved in his clan's destruction as well as a village that was, by his own admission mostly uninvolved, yet seemed to ignore Tobi who confessed to actually helping to carry it out. That would not be what I would call a natural reaction. Nor would that relationship stuff I mention earlier.

I think I'll have to see why you think these characters were crafted well. I actually think Orochimaru was done VERY well, I just hated that they brought this whole "his parents died" thing into it. Kisame was...he had nothing special of his own until his death. I don't see how he was crafted well. Danzou was done decently considering how short he was on the scene for. I love Raikage, so I'm biased there. Sasori...it felt contrived to me, honestly. All he wanted was someone to embrace him and pass down his art? Then don't freaking kill hundreds of people, hahaha. Deidara also = love, so I can agree there.

The main thing to me is we keep seeing people/creatures who are bad, but then we're supposed to feel sorry for them. I love the unapologetic nature of a Deidara. He knew he was doing asshole shit, but he didn't care. He wanted to express his art. Danzou was never bad, he was just an extremist of a sort. Orochimaru was great until they tried to justify his crap. Just say that he wanted to learn all jutsu and leave it at that. Immortality is trite, but Orochimaru was a great villain, IMO. I think a lot of us would've been more satisfied with him as a final villain than Tobi.

I like Gaara because he's showed more growth than probably anyone else in the manga. However, we've basically seen Sasuke do the same thing, in the opposite direction. Gaara found the connection he wanted, then he strove to become important to others and to build those bonds. He's now probably Naruto's #1 advocate from outside Konoha.

Sasuke, on the other hand, got the connection he wanted, but realized that his goal was more important. And after finding out everything that went down regarding his goal, he's gone in the opposite direction of Gaara. Now he wants to kill everyone in Konoha, similar to how Gaara was all "imma kill you guys for the evulz"

Tl;dr - What about the characters you mentioned made them more believable, etc. than Sasuke? The core thing is how they are put together. To state it as simply as I can it's how well the following things flow together as one.

"Who they are"
Sasuke is his ideals at this point. He has nothing else and he is nothing else.
"Why they fight"
Sasuke fights for revenge and to share his misery with the world.
"What they hope to achieve"
To avenge, redeem, and restore his clan's honor through mass murder.
"How they relate to the world around them."
He hates it. Other than that he doesn't relate to it much at all.

That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".

He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.

---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

That's dependant on the reader's personal opinion. I enjoyed Sasuke in the start, so more Sasuke made me happy. From a monetary standpoint it definately payed off, as he's always been in the top 5 in fan lists (in Japan atleast), meaning he'd sell tons of merchandise and bring in/maintain readers. But if you're a Naruto (character) fan then I guess not. The sad thing is that I think Sasuke could have worked for me, flawed as he is. If only they entire narrative didn't focus on the Uchiha's as clan and instead focused on Sasuke as a person. He could have still done bad things and been bent on revenge but it would have given him real substance to back it all up. Drop this destiny, fate, and the power of hatred crap and make him a real character with real goals and plan to realize those goals. .

Have him form his own village, ala Orchimaru. Or have him stage a takeover of the criminal organization of Akatsuki. That could have been great.

chilibun

December 15, 2011, 12:40 AM

Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.

Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!
I disagree with this. Anger and pain can certainly blind a person. Drive one mad even. The human psyche can be a very fragile thing, especially at a young age. But besides that, what you said about Sasuke isn't even true. He was aware of the world around him. Sasuke did share a bond with Kakashi, Naruto, and Sakura. He did at one point try to live his life as one of them. But at the end of the day, he just feels that pain and loneliness that they don't have nor understand. Sasuke explains this is what sets him apart from them and why his path is not with them, but with Orochimaru.

Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.
Sasuke is arrogant, angry, hateful, cold and calculating. Not having some loud flamboyant personality is not the same as not having a personality.

I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.
Huh??? This doesn't make any sense. If anything Sasuke's vengeful personality is exactly opposite of what you are stating here. If you punched Sasuke in the face, he wouldn't reply with an "unnatural" thank you. He would cut your balls off and feed them to you. Perhaps, I went to far with that, lol. But the point is that his personality is actually much more natural and realistic. Pain often creates anger, and anger often causes people to lash out. This is exactly what Sasuke is now. With Itachi's death and revelation, all he has is the pain of losing his family especially his brother. This causes him to be angry at those who are responsible, the Konoha Elders. Well, with so much pain and anger bottled up, he's pretty much a psycho now who would lash out at pretty anybody. And since we're on the subject of being unnatural, Naruto is the only one who would get punched in the face and say "thank you." Worst goddamn character in the manga. Argh, I hate him so much!!! You see how I'm lashing out in this post because of my anger at Naruto. It's quite natural.

That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".

He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having a consistent character. If anything, I would find it quite unrealistic and out of character for him to have major changes. And he is evolving. Do you seriously not see a difference between a Sasuke who sacrificed himself to save Naruto and Sakura, and the one now? In the beginning, despite his cold attitude, he cared greatly for his fellow teammates. When Itachi returned the first time and Naruto strength challenged his, his frustration in his own lack of strength boiled over into anger towards himself and Naruto. Then, he had the pivotal choice of staying with Konoha or leaving for Orochimaru. Is his bonds with team 7 more important to him than vengeance? Of course, we know his pain and anger led him to choose the latter. Even, after 3 years with Orochimaru though, he still had that sense of humanity when he spared the lives of those 300 fodder nins. Itachi's death was suppose to be the release of all his emotional stress, but with the revelation, all Sasuke has is even more pain and anger of losing his brother. Only then, does he snap and lash out at the world. IMO, his evolution really does illustrate what happens when you let hate and anger fester.

benelori

December 15, 2011, 07:42 AM

Many cool stuff have been said here....
I agree somewhat that Sasuke is not that well-written, I mean I can't really compare him to the Sannin for example, or even Pein until he was portrayed as a murderer...in a sense that all these characters were more complete...they had a core character, they had a reason for being the way they were, and they had a goal, something to do, something with a little more imagination than wiping out Konoha...

I've read that if you take the arrogance, the selfishness away there's nothing really left...but I'm asking why would you take that away from him...the arrogance and selfishness do seem dry a bit, but if you look at the reason for all these traits, then I think we can notice the depth, and the humanity about him...

So the premise of the character called Sasuke or if you will the core of the character is well written IMO...the Sasuke Saga as it is known was a way to consolidate his ruthlessness and craziness...I think this is the only part where character development might've gone wrong a bit...I mean was it really necessary to consolidate the ruthlessness? We did see him as pretty crazy and cold-blooded the first time Naruto encountered him in Oro's lair...

From this POV the entire Sasuke Saga could be considered pointless, but in my eyes the Sasuke Saga was meant to show that Sasuke is actually strong enough to act on his commitment...I think it would've been pretty shallow if Sasuke would've done nothing on his path to revenge...

So the character core and the reasons are there...what's left is the actual goal, which is pretty shabby though, I agree with that...but are we actually there, yet, to see Sasuke come forth with something that has real substance in both avenging and resurrecting his clan? If we are looking at the amount of screen time, and length of the manga, I could say it is about damn time to see Sasuke in such a light...

But I think Sasuke will receive this, after the meeting with his old team and especially Naruto...so I think we are yet to see a complete Sasuke character, IMO...

What is bad though, and I absolutely agree with that point...this entire Uchiha Senju mythology doesn't allow Sasuke much room to develop as an individual...the only uniqueness about him is his complicated relationship with Naruto, and even that from Tobi's POV is part of a larger scheme...
His powers, his hatred, his specific character traits were all included in a big scheme that somehow transcends time...SenjuxUchiha conflict

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

Sasuke’s characters leaves a lot to be desired(he could have been more than generic emo rival who is a genius), but he’s written to justify Naruto’s character and goals, to make him the centerpiece of the standard example of hope, friendship, bonds, destiny and hardwork. Nothing Sasuke does is character driven on choice alone, Sasuke blames the hate he’s become and solves all his problems by getting revenge or venturing out to settle some personal score making him one dimensional in his role in the manga.

That's true, that Sasuke was meant to be an antithesis...I don't see why that's bad though...because Kishimoto wants him to be another hurdle for Naruto to overcome? On this question alone, it's not such a bad thing, because even if Kishimoto has a plan for him, he can still face Sasuke with choices, to make his path to darkness a bit more realistic...

This is where I don't agree...because Sasuke was indeed confronted with the chance to choose...3 times...first when we slowly got to meet him, in his first fight against Orochimaru...there he chose the path of being strong, to fight and struggle in order to get what he wants...the second choice was when he was presented the opportunity to leave the village to train under Orochimaru...that choice was one of the better written choices, because it wasn't one dimensional, just the revenge...his grudge with Naruto concerning his own lack of power was also added as a reason to leave...
The third occasion was when Tobi told him the truth about the massacre...the dilemma was even greater then, and I really can't blame him for wanting to go further down the path of revenge

So the choices were there, it is true that they were not entirely character driven, because there were always people around to influence him and guide him on one path or the other...but isn't that normal in a manga?...characters interact with each other, and influencing each other...

UchihaHunter

December 15, 2011, 08:18 AM

*sigh* I'm sorry in advance for the multipost, this beast is going end up hogging an entire forum page. I solemnly promise to avoid doing it again.:amuse
Nonsense! Huge posts make the forum better!

Anger does not blind a person to the world around him indefinitely. No matter how great.
Except...he wasn't blinded indefinitely.

Is it understandable that he seeks vengeance for his family? Absolutely. Is it understandable jumping headlong into the deepest darkness he can find all to kill a brother that wasn't the evil person he thought drove him crazy? Again, absolutely. Is it understandable that he spends his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge without regret or doubts about his path? No!
Of course...he didn't spend his entire life pursuing nothing but revenge. He bonded with Team 7, he acknowledges later that he believed that maybe working with them was his proper path. He's had doubts.

He supposedly spends every day and every hour unflinchingly and unquestionably pursuing his dark path. Think about that. Every minute of every hour of days, of years! Yet, not one hint of introspection. No one moment of "Gee, maybe I should move on with my life...." It's ridiculous that's just not the way human emotion works. If it did humanity would have blown the planet up by now.
False.

Exactly my point they aren't 12-13 anymore yet most of them still act like they are. Why in gods name would Suigetsu possibly care about Sasuke? Ask yourself that? Or Ino for that matter? He's a handsome douche-bag she knew in middle-school. His relationships to everyone outside of Naruto, Sakura, Karin, and Juugo have all been silly like that.
Regarding his classmates: they have known each other for years. Don't they enter the academy at 6 or something? So they've known each other for 6 years, they're fellow villagers, etc.

Regarding Suigetsu: We have no idea how they met each other. And...Suigetsu kinda owes his freedom to Sasuke, no? He'd be in that water tank still.

Regarding Ino: I think Kishi has been trying to express that both Ino and Sakura actually love Sasuke, which would explain a lot if you've ever been in love.

Regarding Karin: Again, we have no idea how they knew each other during Orochimaru's time, and Sasuke did save her life, lol.

Regarding Juugo: Considering how he felt about Kimimaro, and considering Sasuke's role as a neo-Kimimaro for him, it makes sense.

Not having a family doesn't make you emotionally dead to the world. He should still be able to form attachments to people if he isn't a zombie or a robot.
Which he did.

I don't have a problem with the idea of him cutting ties with Konoha either. That's fine. My problem is that people like Suigetsu considering themselves close to Sasuke for no reason. If he treats nobody like a friend, how can they consider themselves his?
Again, he's kinda responsible for Suigetsu's freedom AND for him getting Zabuza's sword, which is apparently important to him.

Focus, goals, and ideals are a bit different than personality. I suppose a more accurate term for what I'm talking about would be "Voice".

The identifiable parts of Sasuke that makes him stand out as Sasuke if you push all powers and motivations aside. Regardless of what he is doing or how strong he is there should be Sasuke's base character that are constant, and do not relate to his ideals etc.

Naruto is the easiest example. Strip away all his power and motivations. And put him in any situation and he'll still be easily recognizable as Naruto. With Sasuke if you strip away all his powers and motivations and their would be almost nothing left.
Again, you're not really being clear. What is Naruto without his motivation to become Hokage/have people recognize him/become Jesus (now)?

Sasuke's base character is constant as well: driven, aloof, elitist. Basically "The Rival"

Ouch! Nothing hurts quite like a good analogy.

I suppose, that would make Sasuke the Uchiha Anti-Christ. God, I hate how well that fits.:(
It really does at this point =/

I mean, "Not natural." If somebody walked up and punched me in the face. Saying "Thank you, sir." would not be a natural reaction for me.
If someone killed your entire family, I would think that moving on and accepting that helplessness wouldn't be natural as well, especially when you're the son of the former Police Chief and the brother of one of the most gifted clan members in history. Personally, I think that I'd think I had the potential to avenge them.

And Sasuke declaring revenge against everybody involved in his clan's destruction as well as a village that was, by his own admission mostly uninvolved, yet seemed to ignore Tobi who confessed to actually helping to carry it out. That would not be what I would call a natural reaction. Nor would that relationship stuff I mention earlier.
He basically made his point clear during the fight with Kakashi. Even the villagers who had nothing to do with it benefited from it, and Itachi got absolutely nothing for it. Regarding Tobi, Amaterasu didn't work on him, and he's already attacked him twice to no effect. He's probably waiting until he can pull a Sasuke vs. Orochimaru situation.

I think I addressed the relationships thing earlier.

The core thing is how they are put together. To state it as simply as I can it's how well the following things flow together as one.

"Who they are"
Sasuke is his ideals at this point. He has nothing else and he is nothing else.
"Why they fight"
Sasuke fights for revenge and to share his misery with the world.
"What they hope to achieve"
To avenge, redeem, and restore his clan's honor through mass murder.
"How they relate to the world around them."
He hates it. Other than that he doesn't relate to it much at all.

That's who he is now and that is who he has been for a very long time. Shallow, uncomplicated, uninteresting, and mechanical in how he devotes himself to his ideal of "Embracing hatred".
If by a very long time you mean since he found out Itachi's truth, then sure. Before that, we saw that he was a different person, going so far as to not kill anyone except Itachi.

He isn't a living evolving character. He's a fixed point. And there is no greater insult to a character than calling them that.
That'd be because he's gotten to Kishi's presumed endgame for him. He's evolved from the beginning to now though.

The sad thing is that I think Sasuke could have worked for me, flawed as he is. If only they entire narrative didn't focus on the Uchiha's as clan and instead focused on Sasuke as a person. He could have still done bad things and been bent on revenge but it would have given him real substance to back it all up. Drop this destiny, fate, and the power of hatred crap and make him a real character with real goals and plan to realize those goals. .

Have him form his own village, ala Orchimaru. Or have him stage a takeover of the criminal organization of Akatsuki. That could have been great.
I think the issue you're having is that his goals were never large. What does he need a village for? He's not experimenting on people, nor does he need a body to transfer to. He formed his platoon only to deal with distractions; he still wanted Itachi 1v1. His goals have been from the beginning: Kill Itachi and revive his clan. Why does he need a village or to take over Akatsuki to do that?

I agree with your views on the destiny stuff, and I'm glad you realize that Naruto is going along the same path in the opposite direction. A lot of what made the manga interesting was the whole Naruto vs. Neji thing, where fate wasn't inevitable. They've thrown that away, haha

juUnior

December 15, 2011, 04:35 PM

I pretty much agree with the ppl which posts I 'like' here, and especially what I wanted to write for reply to Jammin's first post here was definitely similar to this:

As for terribly written, Sasuke was written to hold a certain spot, and he does so well (the yang to Naruto's yin, the anti-thesis). His reasoning for opposing him is okay, his reason for taking a different path perfect, and his anger understandable. It's the stuff outside of that that could use some work (though really, if we saw things like 'what's Sasuke's favorite hobby' or 'how does Sasuke feel about ramen', it'd take away from how serious he is about the destruction of Konoha).

Anything learned about Sasuke outside of his singular focus would be chalked up to a simple quirk, and wouldn't really matter at all (how many times has Kakashi's porn novels been important to... anything? What about Tsunade's gambling habit and bad luck?) I get that it would've been great to know more about him, but we know plenty for the type of character he's meant to be.

So while you may think he is flawed, understand he is flawed for a reason, and to me, Sasuke is actually one of most well written characters in the manga because of how human and messed up he is.
That - I never even once did put Sasuke as a character of Naruto manga as someone with something more to him THAN it was already shown in the manga, and the way Kishi made him to be <I see no reason to gauge characters in that way - if I would, plenty of characters in Narutoverse would be - for me at least - waaay below the level of 'well-written' stuff>. If I would put it in the same context as Jammin, that is:

Sasuke to me is the ultimate example of character that is all style and very little substance.
then my final note about how well written he is would be - definitely - much lower <maybe to the extent of Jammin's opinion about him> BUT I don't see a reason to gauge how well written he is in this way if thats not the point of his character to begin with. I mean: from the moment Sasuke was introduced with that 'famous' speech of his about killing his bro etc. in Kakashi's introduction to team 7 we KNEW what his goal is or what we can expect from him. To me the rest is to gauge HOW well Kishi has written him about this main point/goal/hate stuff, and thats why I believe he is a well-written character.

@Jammin, I think you want too much from the way he was written; the way I see it: he would be a completely different person <and if we will see such Sasuke, it will definitely be at the end of the manga if he ever survives as culmination of all of this/conclusion/redeem> Not to mention how well Kishi portrayed him turning from the 'good guy' to 'anti hero' to 'evil guy' <still want to see more now> while constantly remembering 'Sasukes ninja way', that is: his goal/hate stuff <whether he was saving someone from his team <Naruto/Sakura/Karin> or was killing/trying to kill someone from his team <Karin>

I agree somewhat that Sasuke is not that well-written, I mean I can't really compare him to the Sannin for example, or even Pein until he was portrayed as a murderer...in a sense that all these characters were more complete...they had a core character, they had a reason for being the way they were, and they had a goal, something to do, something with a little more imagination than wiping out Konoha...
Well, Sasuke also has ALL these stuff: he has a 'core' character driven by hatred/his goal <whichever it is, connected with vengeance>, he has a reason for being the way he is <Uchiha clan annihilation/Uchiha Itachi sacirifice knowledge>, and he has a goal, something to do, something which is not very different from any other characters goal <in general sense, driven by hatred/vengeance, his overall theme>. I mean: I pretty much understand him and why he wants to do it.
Now, even if I like Nagato/Pain or Sannins, I cannot say that I think they are better wirtten than Sasuke because they arent' to me <on the other hand I like them more than Sasuke but that doesn't mean I have to say they are well executed> From the Sannins only Jiraiya from the very beginning to the end was well-written character, Orochimaru <for how much I like him> was just ANNIHILATED as a character by Kishi at 'the end' <assuming he doesn't come back in any way because that would depend on new approach and would likely change>, and Tsunade.. well, almost anybody would agree that her execution <at least on fighting stuff> is pure as hell.. does it mean I don't like her? Hell, no, I like her probably more than Sasuke BUT it doesn't change a fact that she is in some ways purely written. <yes, I like fighting in fighting shounens so I also consider this stuff as well.. maybe its just me xP>
Pain/Nagato is well-written character to me as well, though some parts of the execution of Nagato's conversion is not great.

About Gaara discussion: Jammin, you made me realize he is more 'well-written' character than I already thought about him, and in many ways the guy really, really resembles Sasuke <though, like you said, both are 'vice versa' of each other: Sasuke, even though driven by his goal, was a 'good guy' while Gaara, even though driven by his goal, was a 'bad guy' = Sasuke became 'bad guy' while Gaara became 'good guy' <terms good guy/bad guy are just 'for fun', we know its always grey somewhere there in this manga, but I wanted to make the explanation simple>

I'm open for discussion in details :p

UchihaHunter

December 16, 2011, 09:08 PM

Gaara really may be the most well-written character in Naruto. At the very least, he is the the one with the most development. Looking at him during the Chuunin exam vs. him now...you wouldn't even think they were the same person.

xXan

December 17, 2011, 08:12 AM

You know i will never understand why Sasuke, after finaly fiding people he cared about and was ready to die for would cut those connections and be in that hell again...
I don't understand how can he be that stupid to belive that killing Itachi would somehow erase that pain... If he never had anybody ... Well ok that would make sense but he had great friends that where ready to die for him....

Damn i miss the "good" Sasuke.... He had great chemistry with Naruto (not in gay way)...

UchihaHunter

December 17, 2011, 07:27 PM

He pretty much explained it himself, no? He's an avenger. I see people saying he should've just stayed with Naruto, etc. and had a good time in Konoha...he's supposed to do this while knowing his family's murderer is alive and well (well, not exactly "well," but yea...)?

I have 3 younger siblings, two brothers and a sister. I've gotten in fights with other people over people hitting my brothers or trying to hook up with my sister. If older brothers are willing to do that for siblings...if parents are willing to go to jail for their children...why is it odd that Sasuke would rather leave the village to get stronger and kill his family's murderer? Not only that, but he realized that there was someone else behind the tragedy as well...so he clearly wanted vengeance for his family, and it's not as if he thought about it irrationally.

ninjabot

December 17, 2011, 08:01 PM

I have an identical twin brother, and I remember getting into a fist-fight with him in the locker room back in highschool. Immediately after, some random kid was making jokes about it, so we turned and jumped his ass not 2 minutes later. I just think it's funny no matter how angry we are with eachother, we're ready to defend eachother's honor at the drop of a hat.

That said, if I knew someone was responsible for my family's death I'd go Dog the Bounty Hunter on them too. If it was my brother who did it... I don't know. My brother is worth alot to me, and if he was the only family I had left, I think I'd find a way to punish him without leaving me alone in the world. Even if I didn't become a murderous monster, I still would've become an Avenger and would care less about alienating my friends than I do about the eventual reunion between he and I. Granted, I doubt I'd be willing to kill people that get in the way of that vengeance, but Sasuke has the right to act a little out of the ordinary. It's shounen, lol.

It hasn't been confirmed yet, but I'm thoroughly convinced Sasuke's hatred is of a supernatural nature, and it's not just about controlling his own human emotions. Hell, look at what it took for Naruto to control his hatred. It was personified as a doppleganger. Sasuke's actually manifests as a unique, cold aura. When Tobi mentioned him shouldering the hatred of the entire Uchiha clan, that could possibly be a literal statement. He could have the combined hatred of an entire clan corroding his subconscious. Though... no one wants that to be the case because it would give Sasuke an easy-out.

shinsengumi

December 17, 2011, 08:31 PM

sasuke's character is already justified . his older brother massaccared his entire clan before his eyes , then came back to village and further mind-raped him . this is more than enough reason for someone to turn into a psycho
im not saying he is a psycho , im just saying i wouldnt blame him if he became one

look at oro for example , just because his parents died he became obsessed with mortality/immortality and turned into a big boss villian . how is that justified and sasuke is not ?

xXan

December 18, 2011, 11:02 AM

ninjabot

December 18, 2011, 07:31 PM

UchihaHunter

December 19, 2011, 12:14 AM

^ If it's not an action that Jesus would do, then xXan can't understand it.

Basically, because of the village elders...

Sasuke had no family to speak of after the age of what, 7 or 8?

Sasuke was mindraped...once on the day of the massacre, then again when Itachi showed up

Sasuke was targeted by Orochimaru (if the massacre doesn't happen, one could argue that Oro would find another Uchiha...although, Sasuke being the youngest might have still caused Oro to focus on Sasuke.)

Itachi had to participate in the massacre of his family, had to carry the burden of being a criminal, and wasn't able to spend any time with the only family member important enough to him that he didn't kill him

Sasuke killed his brother

Sasuke ended up leaving the village (no massacre, no reason for vengeance, no reason for Sasuke to leave), resulting in him losing the friends that he had made in Naruto and Sakura (we see later that he still thought of them)

There's plenty of reasons for him to want to kill the village elders, and considering that the village itself did nothing but benefit from the sacrifice his brother had made, it's understandable why he's angry with them as well...

Basically, to Sasuke, his brother sacrificed everything to give the village what they wanted, and he never got anything for it...other than a designation as an S-rank criminal. To him the village got all of the pros of Itachi's sacrifice, yet none of the cons. He wants them to feel what he felt, by taking everything away.

Btw, what exactly would you understand Sasuke doing? Choosing to protect Konoha because that's what his brother wanted? Despite what they put him through?

Side note: Danzou and the two elders knew, but no one told Tsunade about it when she came to power? So you can keep info from your Kage like that? That shit cray.

---------- Post added at 01:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

All i will say here is that Sasuke is fully accountable for his actions but i can understand why he is doing them. Does he deserves a friend like Naruto and getting saved and redeemed in the end? Sure he does.
How did you say this not even a full week ago, and then later say that his current actions "make no bloody sense" to you?

xXan

December 19, 2011, 02:57 AM

^ You don't understand wanting to punish the people responsible for setting your brother down a road that resulted in the murder of your family, and him faking his hatred for you and orchestrating his murder by your hand, after making your life miserable aswell, and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you?

You don't understand that? Really?

You misunderstood me. I can understand and comprehend the need for vengence, revange, hate, justice and so on. What i can't understand is how he is acting.
You yourself stated above that you have a brother. Let's asume you have 1 more (Naruto in manga and you love him just as much as you're real one). Then for whatever reason you're real brother kills your entire family aside for the other brother. Then you need revange and this other(Naruto) brother get's in the way and tries to stop you from killing you're real brother. Then you decide to kill him/spare him on whim(as Sasuke put it).

Another example. Some random guy kills you're entire family aside from that brother (real one). Now imagine him tring to save you from yourself (like Naruto) and you tring to kill him because ...err i don't even know why... For a whim aparently. Can you really wrap you're mind around that? Would you kill him for that or comprehend it? I sure as hell can't and i don't even got a brother.

I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi).

Then after all of that he finds out Itachi was actualy protecting him and loving him and what not and he decides to go against all that Itachi wanted for him and what Itachi loved and destroy it in his Name?!?!?! Makes no bloody sense to me man. He is even "cheering" to Itachi after he killed Danzou. The only thing i can say its that he is completly insane and no rational person can understand what insane people think. He could just keep Itachi out of the equation completly and never stated he is doing it for him/in his name(and the rest of his clan of course).

I am not even saying this does not make sense to anybody, just to me.

PS. this is wrong:

and then multiplying your pain when you find out that you killed the only person in the world still alive that truly loved you

Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi just to name some that would have died for Sasuke, Naruto is curently stating he is ready to die with Sasuke just to be able to save him. If that is not truly loving him i don't know what is. What i can't understand is why would Sasuke be ok with killing Naruto, its like killing Itachi all over again but this time knowing what is what.

I wonder what would Sasuke state if he somehow found out how much faith Itachi put in Naruto.

@UchihaHunter

Ah more smug and bait posts from you... What exacly is you're problem with my faith?
I would apreciate if you keep stuff like that out of you're posts as i faill to see how insulting my belief is helping you get whatever you need to state across(also yes that was insulting in case you belived it was not).
Now if you whant to discuss stuff civilized i am all for that. I don't know what people around here think about me but i never tried to shove my faith down anybody's throat or act like a zealot.

How did you say this not even a full week ago, and then later say that his current actions "make no bloody sense" to you?

Diferent things. I can understand his goal, get revange for his pain and for his family but i can't understand how he is going about in achiving that goal.

chilibun

December 19, 2011, 06:37 AM

@xXan

I think you fail to realize that Sasuke's bond with Itachi is much greater than that with Naruto. Also, Sasuke did at one point care for team 7, but he clearly does not care about them as much as they cared for him. The feelings were not mutual.

On a somewhat related note, I hate how people keep referring to Naruto wanting to "save" Sasuke as some ultimate act of love. Its not. As far as I'm concerned, all Naruto is doing is trying to impose his own will onto others. God forbid if somebody doesn't share the same views as you do. Sasuke doesn't want nor needs to be saved. I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with Sasuke's initial pursuit of vengeance when it was just Itachi, because it was justified. He's chosen his own path. Learn to respect it. A real friend would have been more supportive, lulz. Naruto's just an obsessive controlling bitch. Somebody needs to save him from himself. Current Sasuke has gone bonkers though.

ninjabot

December 19, 2011, 07:22 AM

I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi).

You forget that Sasuke more than anyone knew that the difference between Itachi's strength and his own was like comparing heaven and earth. He told him the only way he'd have the strength to kill him is if he had the same eyes as him (Mangekyou) and he also told him how to get it. At that point Sasuke could either not try to kill Naruto, fight Itachi, and die, or he could kill Naruto, gain the MS, fight Itachi, and then win. That's the thought that was going through his head.

Likewise, I think you're putting too much faith in Naruto and Sasuke's friendship. They were never so close that Sasuke would cry over him, and him risking his life to save him against Haku took a back seat when he started to envy Naruto's strength (because unlike the readers, Sasuke didn't know that Naruto was only as strong as he was because of the Kyuubi, otherwise he wouldn't have taken it so hard). Sasuke may have liked Naruto a bit, but he also wanted to kick his ass. Itachi just gave him an excuse to do so without holding back.

I can't say I would've tried to kill a pseudo friend/aquaintance to gain the strength to avenge my family, but then I didn't experience the hell Sasuke experienced as a child, so I can't honestly say that with certainty. Tragedy changes people.

UchihaHunter

December 19, 2011, 08:15 AM

Another example. Some random guy kills you're entire family aside from that brother (real one). Now imagine him tring to save you from yourself (like Naruto) and you tring to kill him because ...err i don't even know why... For a whim aparently. Can you really wrap you're mind around that? Would you kill him for that or comprehend it? I sure as hell can't and i don't even got a brother.
I can wrap my mind around beating Naruto when he's trying to stop me from achieving my goal (Part I). We can see that Sasuke felt as though he had made little progress in his skill while staying at Konoha. He primarily left to improve his chances at killing Itachi.

As far as now, once again Naruto is trying to stop him from achieving his goals. What's more, Naruto has already said he's ready to die to stop Sasuke and "save him." So...considering he's made his goals and Naruto continuously attempts to stop him from achieving them, sure, I can understand him trying to kill Naruto.

I could understand Sasuke tring to kill Itachi even considering how much he loved him but killing his "new famility" that is only tring to save him (expecialy Naruto) to achive that goal i just can't do. If Sasuke would try to kill Itachi at first and then the elders but would never even imagine killing Naruto, Saskura, Kakashi then that would make sense to me (well not so much after finding out about Itachi)
The thing is that Team 7 is trying to stop him from achieving his goal. He's already noted earlier that his goal (which was initially killing Itachi) was more important than the bonds that he shared with them. I see no reason why he'd reverse his decision after finding out that Itachi was used.

Then after all of that he finds out Itachi was actualy protecting him and loving him and what not and he decides to go against all that Itachi wanted for him and what Itachi loved and destroy it in his Name?!?!?! Makes no bloody sense to me man. He is even "cheering" to Itachi after he killed Danzou. The only thing i can say its that he is completly insane and no rational person can understand what insane people think. He could just keep Itachi out of the equation completly and never stated he is doing it for him/in his name(and the rest of his clan of course).
Because they used Itachi. Again, he explained why he's doing what he's doing when he spoke to Tobi. What he saw and what Itachi saw were two different things. To him, Itachi was used for nothing. To him, losing Itachi (at his own hands at that) was justification for destroying Konoha.

PS. this is wrong:

Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi just to name some that would have died for Sasuke, Naruto is curently stating he is ready to die with Sasuke just to be able to save him. If that is not truly loving him i don't know what is. What i can't understand is why would Sasuke be ok with killing Naruto, its like killing Itachi all over again but this time knowing what is what.
First part of this is fair. Naruto, Sakura, Kakashi, and arguably Ino all love him. Second part is again easy to understand when you realize that Sasuke already had strong bonds with his brother, was forced to cut them, and then found out that the reason for cutting them was invalid. Naruto, etc., aren't actual family to him, even if he was very close to them, and he resolved a long time ago to cut those bonds.

I wonder what would Sasuke state if he somehow found out how much faith Itachi put in Naruto.
This is one reason why I hope he encounters Itachi...that would be an interesting situation, but I think it would result in Sasuke just killing Itachi again, lol

Ah more smug and bait posts from you... What exacly is you're problem with my faith?
Nothing really, it's just hilarious to see you on some "it makes no sense to me" type of thing as if it hasn't already been explained in the manga AND multiple times on the forum.

Diferent things. I can understand his goal, get revange for his pain and for his family but i can't understand how he is going about in achiving that goal.
Yet, that's not what you said. I quoted what you said, man. You said you understood why he's doing his actions. I took your own words. How are they different things? If you had initially stated that you understood his goal but not his actions, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but you didn't say that at all.

xXan

December 19, 2011, 01:08 PM

@UchihaHunter

Its about cuting those bounds. If Sasuke is ready to go this far to avenge his family and its not able to cut THOSE BOUNDS (other type of bounds as he himself stated) then how come he can cut the bounds with his new family? Just think how he acted when he found out what he has done after killing Itachi. He was crying his eyes out. Naruto to him was like another brother, like another Itachi.
His goal is nice and all but deciding to kill Naruto because he is in the way is the part that i can't get. He could do things to try to avoid him, to spare him and so on. That entire post was addresed to ninjabot who actualy has a brother. I was asking him if he could kill his brother to avenge the rest of his family just because he was in his way... And not only that but tring to save him...

Because they used Itachi. Again, he explained why he's doing what he's doing when he spoke to Tobi. What he saw and what Itachi saw were two different things. To him, Itachi was used for nothing. To him, losing Itachi (at his own hands at that) was justification for destroying Konoha.

I am aware of that but what i don't understant is how can he belive he is cleansing the Uchiha name and somehow avenging what was done to Itachi when everything Sasuke is doing is taking a great big dump on everything Itachi was?

Nothing really, it's just hilarious to see you on some "it makes no sense to me" type of thing as if it hasn't already been explained in the manga AND multiple times on the forum.

Its not explained, its personal interpretation. Its not like its something that can be proven with numbers. Its like tring to treat an insane person. What i am tring to do is understand what in the blazers is going trough Sasuke's head (very insane person). To me how he acts makes no sense. As i said i can understand him neededing that revange but how he is ready to piss on Itachi and Naruto makes no sense (to me).

Yet, that's not what you said. I quoted what you said, man. You said you understood why he's doing his actions. I took your own words. How are they different things? If you had initially stated that you understood his goal but not his actions, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but you didn't say that at all.

What i said its that i undestand why he seeks revange, what i don't get is how he goes about achieving that revange. The only time i actualy felt like Sasuke is getting rational it was vs Bee when he remember his team 7.

I could explain this with the fact that revange is all he has left but that is not true, he had a new family, that is the real puzzle.

chorns

December 21, 2011, 01:05 PM

I also don't think Sasuke is poorly written at all. I don't understand this notion that all characters are "suppose" to overcome their fate/demons. That's just way too unrealistic for me.

Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...

Exodi

December 21, 2011, 02:26 PM

Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...

They're also still human. They can love, hate, overcome their metaphorical demons, or succumb to them. They can lie or be honest and have memories and beliefs and feelings. For everyone ever to somehow change because one young man convinced them to is a little extreme, even in the Naruto universe, because some people are so unhinged (e.g. Sasuke) that they can't be changed, even with action (and more action, and moooore action. I think there was some crying, too).

That's the point of Sasuke anyway. That guy that was supposed to be Naruto's "friend" became the one guy Naruto couldn't save, whether with words or action. Sasuke's thirst for revenge was unstoppable even before Itachi died, then multiplied after finding out the truth, and then evolved into what seems like empty bloodlust to me. It's actually quite riveting, imo.

FrostyMouse

December 21, 2011, 02:37 PM

I was thinking about it, and I was comparing the scene of Sasuke destroying a rock to an episode of Bleach's filler where Kenpachi spends half the episode destroying a forest, literally cutting trees.

While I think that Sasuke is in the dumps of characters at this point, I actually think that Naruto's the one who's worse off. Naruto keeps believing, quite naively, that he can always save Sasuke. Regardless of what happens, Naruto believes that he can save Sasuke. Whether Sasuke attacks Sakura or what, Naruto always believes that Sasuke's redeemable. I actually think that the scene of the crow saving Itachi instead of being used to save Sasuke is evidence that Naruto's belief in Sasuke's ability to be redeemed is just that, naive.

I question the bonds that ever existed between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke easily cuts them, but Naruto has it in his head that they're literally blood brothers. There are moments where friendship is evident, but more often than not, Naruto appears to read into situations far more than the actuality of the situation.

Sasuke's failed on the whole, but I believe that Naruto's failings are the reason that Sasuke's failing.

xXan

December 22, 2011, 02:41 AM

Too unrealistic? This is manga where ninjas have abilities like having lightning blades coming out of their hands yet that is too unrealistic...

That is defenetly not the same thing. Curent age guns would look like MAGIC to some people 2000 years back. But emotions and how they all need and how they all will overcome those demons... Well its diferent and its not that realistic for all of them to be able to do it. Now i am not saying i have a problem with it but the comparison is not exacly valid :P

@FrostyMouse

Having faith in diferent things and always finding something good in people is not "naive". If anything you need some insane caracter strenght to try to save/love someone that is hating your and tring to kill you and you're friends. If you whant to go with the manga even Itachi put his faith in Naruto to save Sasuke. Then we also have Konan, Nagato, Tsunade, J Man, Minato, Itachi, Sakura, Bee, Raikage and this list is HUGE with people that entrusted the world to this kid who's main "weapon" is the thing that you call "naivety".

If you only go with Nagato and Gaara as the dudes he saved by beeing "naive" ands its enough. I mean really both of those dudes where mass murderers and if he can save them why would he give up on Sasuke? From part 1 was made clear that Naruto never gives up. Do you remember when JMan told Naruto that he should give up on Sasuke as only stupid people do what he is doing? Naruto stated that if that is what it means to be smart then he will be dumb for the rest of his life. Naruto NEVER give's up on his friends and that is what i love about the kid.

Uchiha_Blood

December 22, 2011, 09:44 AM

Imho Kishi simply lost control with the character of Sasuke, at the point of resorting to bad writing to justify his "anger". I'll elaborate on that. Sasuke is Kishi's favorite character, he said so from day one ( and to be completely clear, said so again in the last interview ) and he clearly created his ideal idea of a perfect character:
loved by all, a genius, has the coolest Gekkei Kenkai and so. The perfect opposite of Naruto which, in a right environment ( not hated but accepted by the rookie of the year and his sensei ) and sheer hard work and unexpected talent ( do not forget that he completely mastered a Rank B Kinjutsu in 2-3 hours while Sasuke struggled with a C rank Ninjutsu for a week ) managed to be on par with him. So far, the dynamics between the two was flawless:
the failure managed to be aknowledged by the genius, which felt a threat in Naruto. And so we have the battle at VOTE, and the climax of Part 1. So far so good, part 1 was an extraordinary example of a great manga imho.

Now Part 2. On one hand we have Naruto that accomplished, in a 3 year trip, to learn only 1 jutsu ( while he learned the Rasengan in a week ) and anything else, starting again imho as a talentless dead last. On the other hand we have Sasuke which is cool, battles the entire team 7 without trouble etc. And this is good, if they mantained the balance they had in part 1 we wouldn't enjoyed naruto's struggle to be on par once more with his "brother". Bad writing, but acceptable nonetheless. From then, Sasuke manages to steal Naruto's spot as the main character ( he is, after all, the only one who has his own cover devoid of Naruto, in more than an occasion and even on consecutive occasions if my memory doesn't trick me ) until Sasuke manages to kill Itachi.

The focus then returns to Naruto, which battles and ends Pein, and is finally aknowledged by his village, while Sasuke falls in the trap set by Madara. Yet, in this moment, we see the best imho impression of Sasuke, who lost his brother, get stomped by a foe even after obtaining the strongest ( at the time at least ) Gekkei Kenkai of the manga, relying on his companions, being saved and saving them time and time again. We now have a likable Sasuke, who is no one puppet, who cares about others, who remembers Team 7 while retaining the cool things that he always had. So far Sasuke is not the main antagonist, but a main character, on the same spot of Naruto.

Then begins the bad writing imho:
Sasuke has a 180° turn, he becomes a merciless killer, a hate filled ninja without no apparent reason ( I mean everything he knows he knowed before attempting to capture Killer Bee, and at the time was the likable Sasuke, not the ass Sasuke ). He kills ( or attemps to do so ) anyone who stand in his way, do not care for his comrades and foolishly tries to battle Kage after Kage, instead of being the smart guy he is ( was? ) and using a different approach. His chakra becomes colder and eviler than his Second Stage, again without apparent reason. He kills Danzou while sacrificing Karin and tries to do the same with Kakashi and Sakura, and clearly states that he will be pleasured by killing them personally. then we have the confrontation with Naruto and his decision to get stronger to kill him.

Now, why is that? He learned that Itachi sacrifice was for the village of Konoha. He was ordered by Danzou and the 2 advisors, not the Hokage. He realistically and logically would want revenge against them, but he childishly blames Konoha ( which always treated him right, by Itachi's warning ). Now he is but a merciless, uncaring murderer, as we saw when he killed Zetsu just for the fun of it.
Imho the reason is that Kishi doesn't want that the final fight between Naruto and Sasuke to be a popularity contest when the main character loses ( face it, Sasuke was more popular than Naruto until this arc ) and so he "killed" the character he was so wrapped to make cool and likable for the sake of the story. That and he seems to like downplaying Naruto every chance he gets, not really helping his case.

It his reasonable that Sasuke doesn't want to return to Konoha and all, he has his own life and its not Naruto or Sakura's business to butt in his by force, assuming that Sasuke must return to Konoha because they want to. That is selfish. Sasuke wanted power for his goal, exactly like Naruto wanted power for his own. He killed Oro, so Naruto really didn't have any reason to make him come back, since he was safe from the body transfer. It is not reasonable imho his turning in a killer without a plausible reason, unless this Mangekyou Sharingan really corrupts his user, which is bullshit, as Itachi ans Shisui were the finest shinobi ever.

Naruto2011

December 22, 2011, 10:38 PM

My best explanation for why Sauke does this and that is simple, he is insane. We cant wrap our mind around his decisions and his logic know of days because his mind is long past gone, he was analytical and prob still is, it is just his way of going about things has went 180 so now instead of thinking things out in a stategy he has just went with the idc/go with the flow attitude, tactic are out of the window n he just do things

Megapithicanthrope

December 23, 2011, 11:12 AM

I appreciate the sentiment behind everything you've said but I see Sasuke's role in the story a little bit differently. From the beginning Kishimoto has protrayed Sasuke as a very moral and righteous person. It was from Sasuke, after all, that Naruto first began to learn about the importance of relationships and living for other people. Sasuke was Naruto's role model.

I also think Sasuke's character is why he's had to go through so much. Only by having Sasuke suffer so much has Kishimoto been able to push Sasuke to the point of doing such terrible things. That's how righteous of a person the author sees Sasuke as. Nor do I think the author has pushed Sasuke down this dark path to make Naruto look better but rather to make it impossible for Naruto to ever reach Sasuke and bring him back. That way Naruto will have no choice left but to turn to the one person who actually can reach Sasuke.

I think all of this has been done to finally teach Naruto the all importan lesson of accepting himself for who he is. In his quest to gain acceptance, Naruto set Sasuke up as his bench mark and instigated a rivalry with him, trying to become just like Sasuke. The only problem is that Naruto is not now, nor will he ever be, Sasuke.

I also think it will teach Naruto about the importance of relying on others. Because of his uprbringing, Naruto shuns reliance on others and tries to do everything himself (something that not even Sasuke felt he could do as evidenced by his reliance on Taka). If Naruto is to become Hokage and be effective at it, he must learn to accept his own limitations and be willing to work with and rely on others.

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

I should also add that it'll teach Naruto some humility. He's become insufferably arrogant.

xXan

December 23, 2011, 03:25 PM

Prince Sasuke

December 23, 2011, 04:02 PM

Megapithicanthrope

December 23, 2011, 08:46 PM

@Megapithicanthrope

Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?

You're forgetting Itachi's entire speech to Naruto, I think. In it Itachi stongly warns Naruto against the very arrogance I'm referring to and reminds Naruto not to forget his need to rely on others or else he'll turn out just like Madara.

chilibun

December 23, 2011, 09:18 PM

@Megapithicanthrope

Arrogant? Not the way i see it. Sure Naruto keeps blabling about doing it alone but that is not because he things he is God (like Nagato) but because he does not whant to see his friends getting hurt. He also feels like everybody left this for him to do (like Minato). Even if there is some arrogance there to state "insufferably arrogant" makes no sense to me. Perhaps you can give some examples ?

Naruto is indeed "insufferably arrogant" because he thinks he is above everybody else. That he can solve all problems that nobody else can solve. Nobody wants to see their comrades hurt but everybody has found ways to work as a team, including Kages. I don't quite blame him for it since Kishi turned him into Jesus and everybody praises him to no end, but it is what it is. Naruto is a controlling, arrogant, self-centered douche whose only goal is to impose his will on to others. True Story.

Megapithicanthrope

December 23, 2011, 09:28 PM

Naruto is indeed "insufferably arrogant" because he thinks he is above everybody else. That he can solve all problems that nobody else can solve. Nobody wants to see their comrades hurt but everybody has found ways to work as a team, including Kages. I don't quite blame him for it since Kishi turned him into Jesus and everybody praises him to no end, but it is what it is. Naruto is a controlling, arrogant, self-centered douche whose only goal is to impose his will on to others. True Story.

There's too much truth in that statement to ignore. Well said.

xXan

December 27, 2011, 09:01 AM

chilibun

December 27, 2011, 02:43 PM

@xXan

You don't need a "I am arrogant" dialogue in the manga to be arrogant. Naruto's arrogance comes from his behavior. Just believing he is destined is arrogance in itself. What, so he is born destined to be the world's hero and savior and everybody else are born to witness his holy acts? To me, this pretty much translates to "Why you fighting a war? Go home and sleep, I'll save your helpless ass." It matters little whether Naruto knows how to fixt the world or not. He believes he is the ONLY one who can do it, that nobody can accomplish anything without him. There is a big difference between saving somebody in need and believing everybody needs to be saved.

PS: I just remembered this. If you need manga quotes, here ya go:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/6
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/7
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/552/8

xXan

December 28, 2011, 03:15 AM

@chilibun

As i said before Naruto is tring to take blows that where intended for other people. What you people are failing to understand is that Naruto is acting based on what Minato and JMan left him to do, its the mission that his loved ones left him. Its like your parents ending up dead and leaving that mission TO YOU. Understand? He is just following on what Minato and JMan set him up to do, its as simple as that. Minato and JMan belived he is the one to do it and they told him that, Naruto belived "in what JMan belived". He is not doing it because he feels superior but because that is what JMan and Minato told him to do.

Minato and JMan direcly told him he is the one who needs to save the world and he is the only one and he is just doing the mission that they left him to do. SIMPLE...

Then aside from JMan and Minato he also has to follow the promise he made. Nagato died as Naruto promised something... People are forgeting the important stuff. Nagato himself and left this for Naruto to do. Nagato sacrificied himself as Naruto was giving his word to "shoulder the world" and FIX it.

Those links are irrelevant as i gues you missed the part with DUTY? Its his duty to act that way after what was left to him by Minato, JMan and Nagato. Itachi has no idea what happened to Naruto and what is his legacy and duty. But Itachi is right that Naruto can't do it alone but Itachi is wrong on why he is dooing it. He is not doing it out of arrogance but because of his duty.

If my loved ones died so i could complete that mission i would be acting like Naruto to. Even Kushina died embracing Minato's vision.

Heh even Konan and aparently has the same idea:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-57323-1/naruto/chapter-509.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-13/naruto/chapter-510.html

They ALL entrusted this mission to NARUTO and he feels like its his DUTY to do so.

To add to that the side effects are not that of a arrogant man. When he get's saved or helped he is not pissed off, upseat or angry... He is HAPPY and thankfull. That is not how an arrogant man acts. Not only that he is NOT refusing help, he just feels like its his duty to be there for everybody. Stopind Madara(Tobi) and therefore this war is the reason his father died and left him that weapon (Kyuubi). Yes Naruto is foolish, its obvious but he is not arrogant.
Besides he already defeated his "dark side" no?

Megapithicanthrope

December 28, 2011, 01:31 PM

You're listening too much to what Naruto says and not analyzing how he actually behaves. Look more closely at how Naruto treats Gaara and especially Onoki and you can glean more of what Naruto is really all about. Besides, as I said before, Itachi actually does call Naruto arrogant when warning him of the importance of relying on his friends.

No legacy has been left specifically to Naruto either. Naruto and Nagato together were the Child of Prophecy as stated by the old frog. What's more it was Jiraya's decision that determined which path the Child would take concerning the fate of the world. Specifically, Jiraya's choosing to pass on the message of Pain's identity allowed the meeting between Naruto and Nagato with the result that Nagato used the Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique to revive the dead in Konoha rather than Madara. As can be seen from the battle between "zombie" Madara and the Kages, Madara's revival would have had serious consequences. Nagato's final words to Naruto before Itachi sealed him were merely encouragment, comparing himself to Jiraya and telling Naruto not to follow the same sort of path he did, but rather to stay on the straight-and-narrow, just as Jiraya had.

Minato left the Nine-Tails to Naruto to use as a weapon but I don't recall him stating whether or not he thought Naruto would defeat Madara or bring peace to the world, merely that he forsaw them coming into conflict and wanted to leave Naruto some means of defending himself (seeing as Naruto has no other abilities beyond what the Nine-Tails has granted him).

As for Naruto "taking the blows for everyone else" this is something he simply can't do. He can't fight the war all alone (he lacks the strength and talent) and in Sasuke's case specifically, Naruto lacks the relationship neccessary to reach Sasuke in his current state of mind. Sasuke will never allow Naruto to "bare the burden of his hatred" because they simply aren't close enough. Sasuke doesn't care enough about Naruto to stop.

chilibun

December 28, 2011, 11:35 PM

@xXan

Like Batman says, "it's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me." You don't have to be a prick like Sasuke to be considered arrogant. Nobody has asked Naruto to shoulder everything alone. Nobody has said they needed him to protect them from the scary monsters. Minato and Jiraiya left him their ideals and dreams to him like most fathers/teachers would do to their successors. They didn't ask him to do it alone. Naruto is so completely caught up in his own ego that he believes it is his duty alone, and that only he can bring peace to the world. And this is exactly what I and Itachi is referring to when we call Naruto arrogant. Naruto is not the only person who wants peace nor is he the only one fighting for it. The world does not belong to Naruto and is not up to him to change.

Since the NBA just started, I'll use a basketball analogy to illustrate my point. The goal is obviously to win the game and everybody on the team is working towards that. But instead of working together towards a common goal, Naruto is chucking up every shot because he feels like he needs to carry the team on his back. That is arrogance and a lack of trust of his teammates. The team does not consist of Naruto alone. Every member is working towards winning and even though some players are better than others, they are all capable of contributing.

Naruto's sense of duty and need to protect other's might be the cause or justifications of his actions, but it doesn't change the fact that his actions are arrogant.

xXan

December 29, 2011, 01:17 AM

Perhaps how we look at arrogance differs but when someone trows away his life just so he can go all over the battlefield so he can help all his friends... Well that is not arrogance to me... Naruto had NO idea that the Kyuubi would stop taking his chakra and he was worned that ANY clone would = you dead... Then he whent ahead and created 12 or 13 (i can t remember right now).

I faill to understant how would JMan and Nagato once beeing part of the prophecy have ANYTHING to do with the fact that Naruto is curently the only one that will save the world?!?! JMan and Nagato where there to shape Naruto but NARUTO is the one who right now is the only one part of that legacy and destiny to save the world.

@Megapithicanthrope

Minato left the Nine-Tails to Naruto to use as a weapon but I don't recall him stating whether or not he thought Naruto would defeat Madara or bring peace to the world, merely that he forsaw them coming into conflict and wanted to leave Naruto some means of defending himself (seeing as Naruto has no other abilities beyond what the Nine-Tails has granted him).

Hmmz? Minato started to belive in what JMan belived but noticed that NARUTO is going to save the world and that he is the one that is going to stop the darkness:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-17/naruto/chapter-503.html

JMan was stating about the one to save the world and MINATO understood it was his SON.

MINATO DIRECLY left this job to NARUTO and gave him that weapon to do it:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55672-18/naruto/chapter-503.html

Naruto is just tring his best to save the world as his father and master left him, in a foolish way granted.

As for Naruto "taking the blows for everyone else" this is something he simply can't do. He can't fight the war all alone (he lacks the strength and talent) and in Sasuke's case specifically, Naruto lacks the relationship neccessary to reach Sasuke in his current state of mind. Sasuke will never allow Naruto to "bare the burden of his hatred" because they simply aren't close enough. Sasuke doesn't care enough about Naruto to stop.

How is this relevant? This is part of the "foolish" part and NOT the arrogance one.

Here the Kyuubi himsels explains it, Naruto is NAIVE:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/538/2

He whants to stop the war himself:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/538/3

BUT BECAUSE HE IS NAIVE and feels like is his duty. It is also explains WHY HE IS DOING IT. To save his friends.
Yes he wants to shoulder the world:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/538/5

Naruto never gives up, is the will of fire and the will to never give up that he got from JMan:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/538/17

JMan himself and was tring to solve the world hate ALLONE.

Now about Sasuke... Yes Naruto does understands Sasuke right now, he was unable to do so before but not now. After the Pein fight he does. They where also able to trade punches and found out just what it is going on there. It was clearly stated that Naruto himself is going to sholder Sasuke's hate alone, even Kakashi let it go.

@chilibun

Read above to, what i said to Megapithicanthrope.

Like Batman says, "it's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Agree and that is what i am working with. Naruto's behavior is not of that of a arrogant man any time he get's help. You are NOT happy when you get saved, you are not gratefull when you are saved, you DON'T accept help like that if you are arrogant... That is NOT how an arrogant man ACTS. Now to add to this trowing your life just so you can go to all your friends and make sure they don't die (creating the clones as i said above) its not something about arrogance but love for your friends.

You like using Batman.... Well GUES WHAT, Batman himself is WORKING ALONE (most of the time and most of the incarnations, he does have Robin and Oracale in some versions but even having them he goes allone lost of times) and even refusing help for most of the time.

Basketball is a sport, your friends are not ending up dead on the field. Naruto felt lots of his friends in trouble and people ending up dead left and right...
The alliance lost some 40000 people and Naruto somehow was able to sense it and see it in his SM. How would you feel if you would find out 40000 people died protecting your but. Granted is not exacly his fault for that but Naruto still looks at it like all those people died to protect him, he does not whant more people to die.

Naruto looking at this like its HIS and HIS alone duty is not arrogance but more naivety as the Kyuubi stated (read above). He does not what any more people to die (40000 people already died) and is trowing his life away(clones) to go everywhere to help them.

I don't know how you people look at things but someone who is trowing his life away just so he can save his friends is NOT arrogance in my book expecialy considering how everybody entrusted this mission to HIM. Nobody direcly stated he needs to do it allone but he feels like its his duty to pull it off no matter what the cost and is tring to do as much as possible.

This is Naruto:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-453-15/naruto/chapter-448.html

And this is NOT arrogance in my book. It is also intersting how people are beliving in Naruto's so called arrogance:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-453-18/naruto/chapter-448.html

What you people don't understand is that Naruto is tring to prevent this:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-454-11/naruto/chapter-449.html
http://www.mangareader.net/93-454-12/naruto/chapter-449.html

The pain that those that die bring to there loved ones... You people can call him arrogant but he is defenetly not one in my book.

Uchiha_Blood

December 29, 2011, 07:04 AM

Naruto is a shonen, shonen is mainly for boys and children ( so deep, adult themes aren't really that exploited by the authors ) , so you can't really expect that mains characters act as mature ppl.

Good going at expecting a 16 years old boy who was without parents from the beginning of his life to act as the sagest guy in the universe, really. Of course he can't act as his age, is Naruto, is not like ppl do wrong, they can't make mistakes, expecially when you're young and immature. And of course he is an arrogant idiot because someone like Itachi ( the epitome of the shinobi ) lectured him, and it doesn't count that afterwards he made a dozen of Kage Bushins to help recognise the Zetsus, teaming up with all the alliance. Naruto is such an immature, arrogant brat, because he thinks he can help others, not because he wants to save them, but because he is selfish.
Surely! And its not like he thinks that the war was his fault for a great part, because he hosts one of the two very objectives of the bad guys. I'm sure that if someone's country was attacked and destroyed because you made a mistake, or for a possession he has, that someone doesn't have the right to feel guilty, and to try to do something about it, shouldering everything he can, even beyond his limit. And if someone who is sager ( ugh, really don't know if one can use that word, my english is rusty ) than him points out his mistake and he learns from it, surely he didn't improve, he's arrogant for default even if he doesn't act as such.

Better to kill them all because they all made his life like shit, even after his parents sacrificed their life and his life to save his village. That is surely mature, yes?

shafagh

December 29, 2011, 10:35 AM

Megapithicanthrope

December 29, 2011, 11:49 AM

@ xXan

You're misunderstanding the situation. At the time Minato (and Jiraya) said those things they had no idea who the Child of Prophecy would be. They were only stating their interpretation of the prophecy and both of them would later prove to be wrong. Naruto isn't the Child of Prophecy, Naruto and Nagato together are, and the result of their meeting has changed the world. Because of their choices, Madara has been screwed out of his resurrection and been forced to declare himself openly to the world after years of working in secrecy and is now embroiled in a war with all of the other ninja villages united against him. This united war effort, this revolution in ninja thinking, is changing the fate of the world.

Naruto, however, does not acknowlege this. He is the "Saviour of the World"! Only he matters and only he can make a difference! He can do it all by himself and he'll be damned if anyone is going to sacrifice themselves for his sake. He's the hero and he’s not having any martyrs. No one is sharing his lime light.

This attitude becomes most clear when Onoki is making his speech about wanting to fight Madara. Finally, after all these years Onoki has found something he truly wants to fight for, he sees the future he wants to help create. Onoki gives an empassioned speech.

How does Naruto respond to this old man’s wish? Is Naruto inspired by this old man’s dream? Does Naruto graciously step aside and allow him to make a difference or at least agree to fight with the old man and achieve their dreams together? The answer is a resounding no!

This is Naruto’s parade and no one is going to rain on it. Naruto asserts that he’s going to take both Madara’s out right then and there without anyone else’s help. He even goes so far as to question Tsunade’s ability to fight!

This is the chance Naruto has been waiting for, his chance to become the big hero, gaining the recognition and awe of everyone and surpassing every Hokage or whatever else that has come before. He’ll be a legend equaling or even surpassing the Sage of the Six Paths. He’ll even have finally beaten Sasuke, as Naruto will be the one to save him and bring him back into the fold, and he’ll be damned if some little old man is going to cheat him out of that.

Konan supports Naruto because he is carrying on Yahiko and Nagato’s dream. Minato and Jiraya thought the way they did because of their misunderstanding the prophecy. The Raikage and others let Naruto have his way because they take pity on Naruto for how he is feeling and sympathize with his determination. I don’t think anyone truly believes Naruto can do what he says he can do (except may be Sakura and Sai and Lee).

The hard reality that is about to slap Naruto in the face is that he can’t do any of it. Naruto won’t be able to defeat Sasuke nor will anything Naruto says reach him. He most certainly won’t be able to defeat Madara. Naruto has been on a kind of high ever since his “defeat” of Pain and I think he’s about to be brought crashing back to earth.

Uchiha_Blood

December 29, 2011, 01:44 PM

Well , I think this manga is publishing for more than 10 years ... most of readers become adult in past decade ....

And yet is serialized on Jump ( where the target of the reader is midschool/highschool students ) and is a Shounen, the genre where main characters are usually good guys that values above all friendship and the like, heroes so to speak. They don't have that dept in character unless you look through the main facade of the character ( example, Naruto's goal is to became Hokage, Luffy's is to become the Pirate King, pretty much like, when asking a kid what will be when he grows up he will answer "a famous star" or "an astronaut" ) simply because the readers seems to favour cool fights, abilities and the sort.

Ask yourself why, for example, the Sharingan passed to be from a distant descendant of the Byakugan to a direct descendant of the primordial Doujutsu. It is simply because the readers loves the sharingan, and on and on ( ask ten ppl the coolest Gekkei Kenkai of Naruto, and I'm sure 9 out of 10 will answer the Sharingan ). But I'm digressing, what I wanted to say is that is unlikely that a shounen has deep, meaningful characters, because almost all of them follows the same pattern

@ xXan

You're misunderstanding the situation. At the time Minato (and Jiraya) said those things they had no idea who the Child of Prophecy would be. They were only stating their interpretation of the prophecy and both of them would later prove to be wrong. Naruto isn't the Child of Prophecy, Naruto and Nagato together are, and the result of their meeting has changed the world. Because of their choices, Madara has been screwed out of his resurrection and been forced to declare himself openly to the world after years of working in secrecy and is now embroiled in a war with all of the other ninja villages united against him. This united war effort, this revolution in ninja thinking, is changing the fate of the world.

Naruto, however, does not acknowlege this. He is the "Saviour of the World"! Only he matters and only he can make a difference! He can do it all by himself and he'll be damned if anyone is going to sacrifice themselves for his sake. He's the hero and he’s not having any martyrs. No one is sharing his lime light.

This attitude becomes most clear when Onoki is making his speech about wanting to fight Madara. Finally, after all these years Onoki has found something he truly wants to fight for, he sees the future he wants to help create. Onoki gives an empassioned speech.

How does Naruto respond to this old man’s wish? Is Naruto inspired by this old man’s dream? Does Naruto graciously step aside and allow him to make a difference or at least agree to fight with the old man and achieve their dreams together? The answer is a resounding no!

This is Naruto’s parade and no one is going to rain on it. Naruto asserts that he’s going to take both Madara’s out right then and there without anyone else’s help. He even goes so far as to question Tsunade’s ability to fight!

Yes, is not like that after Oonoki speech (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/563/15) he dispelled the clone (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/563/16).
And also why didn't he made a Kage Bushin after he headbutted (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/564) Tobi? He had the time, no?

And also, for example here (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/6):
why he says to Hinata and the others "Let's go" ? He should've said "Stay here, I'll handle it", or something like that. Or here (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/558/14), "Let's destroy the white shapeshifting guy together". Yes, definitely an arrogant ass.
Good god..

xXan

December 30, 2011, 01:41 AM

@Megapithicanthrope

LOL you people are absurd. The guy is ready to trow his life away to save ALL his friends (clones = Naruto dead at that point) out of arrogance and not love? Ok dudes if you say so.

You're misunderstanding the situation. At the time Minato (and Jiraya) said those things they had no idea who the Child of Prophecy would be. They were only stating their interpretation of the prophecy and both of them would later prove to be wrong. Naruto isn't the Child of Prophecy, Naruto and Nagato together are, and the result of their meeting has changed the world.

Can you read? I posted a pic where Minato himself stated that he understood that Naruto is that one? Nagato was in a sense part of that prophecy but more in the same way as JMan was, he was there to make Naruto grow. Naruto himself is the one who aparently has to save the world. They where not WRONG. Naruto IS child of the prophecy, they had no idea that Naruto is going to end up getting help to grow from Nagato but that is besides the point. Nagato himself aknoledged that he was wrong and Naruto should correct his mistakes. Nagato himself was saved by Naruto. Yes he made him grow but the one that is going to travel the world to save it is Naruto himself so its not like they where wrong, they just never had complete information but they where not wrong.

Naruto, however, does not acknowlege this. He is the "Saviour of the World"! Only he matters and only he can make a difference! He can do it all by himself and he'll be damned if anyone is going to sacrifice themselves for his sake. He's the hero and he’s not having any martyrs. No one is sharing his lime light.

So you are telling me that someone not whanting his friends to die is arrogance? What world are you living in? The rest is completly wrong as someone else posted links already to Naruto fighting with others. Naruto does not care to be the only one in the spot light..

This attitude becomes most clear when Onoki is making his speech about wanting to fight Madara. Finally, after all these years Onoki has found something he truly wants to fight for, he sees the future he wants to help create. Onoki gives an empassioned speech.

What attitude? The fact that Naruto wants to fight with them? Perhaps you are reading a diferent manga but Naruto wanting to help them fight off the most dangerous man alive (or close to) is not arrogance lol.

How does Naruto respond to this old man’s wish? Is Naruto inspired by this old man’s dream? Does Naruto graciously step aside and allow him to make a difference or at least agree to fight with the old man and achieve their dreams together? The answer is a resounding no!

WHAT? I can't belive i have to argue with this stuff... Naruto not only does undo the clone BUT he is ok with that:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/563/16
He understood that he can't fight on 2 fronts, he needs all his power on 1 fighting with Tobi. He wanted to stay there not out of arrogance but to help them. He never stated that they should back off and let him and him alone fight Madara and Tobi... He is VERY happy Bee is there with him. That is not arrogance.

This is Naruto’s parade and no one is going to rain on it. Naruto asserts that he’s going to take both Madara’s out right then and there without anyone else’s help. He even goes so far as to question Tsunade’s ability to fight!

He is concerned for her safety as he knows what happeneds when she activates her healing jutsu:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/563/7
He does not stated he is going to do it alone, he only states HE WANTS TO FIGHT HIM TO. The rest is just wrong... Naruto never stated or implied any of the above. As i said you people just see what you whant to see...

Really i can only conclude that you people just don't like Naruto and are reading the manga in a way that would get to that end. As i said there somebody who is arrogant would NOT be happy when he get's helped,saved and he would defenetly not stated things like let's fight togeder or be happy when reinforcements get there and so on. But ok keep beliving that Naruto's arrogance is what made him trow away his life to create the clones to go help everybody.

Delbi

December 30, 2011, 02:32 AM

Not the way i see it. Naruto is taking the world on his sholders, in a way Jesus has (yes religious stuff don't kill me).

I faill to see 1 instance when Naruto is stating that he is above ANYBODY. He is humble and apologizing even to biju's (curent chapter). He is getting saved on the battlefield and saying ty.

He is doing what he is doing because he feels like this is his destany and he has to shoulder the worlds hate, he does not whant other people to have to sholder it. Even Sasuke he whant to save him himself and die with him. He does not even belive he will fight and WIN. He is ready to SACRIFICE himself for that.

The only time when its a somewhat arrogance on his part is when he states he does not doughts himself. But then he explains why. He never even states HOW he can do it or that he KNOWS how to do it. He just tries his best to do it. He just belives in what JMan belived (as stated so in the manga).

I dare anybody to find a clear line from curent Naruto where he states he is above anybody else or whatever.

Again sacrifing yourself for the world is NOT arrogance.

Naruto is just following on the teaching, legacy and the job left to him by JMan and Minato. Nothing more. If anything he is foolish beliving he can save the world himself but NOT arrogant. Itachi himself was NOT arrogant beliving he can save Sasuke himself... Mistaken yes but not arrogant.

Naruto has never turned down ANY HELP he got. He just whants to do as MUCH AS HE CAN.
He is just pushing himself as much as possible to intercept all the punches that are directed at any of his friends, if that is arrogance i don't know what a hero is.

@chilibun

Oh do show me where Naruto stated he knows how to fix the world? The last time i cheked he stated he belives in what JMan belived and THAT is his answer. Aka this invalidates your post.

PS. Naruto is working with Bee so its not like he is not working in a team or he is alone. Hell on all the battlefields he worked AS PART OF A TEAM.

Kakazu and Pain. Two perfect examples of Naruto's arrogance. Later on we see this when he first entered the war and didn't listen to anyway.

Naruto's arrogance lies in the fact that he believe those who have taught him have taught him everything correctly, and that what Naruto is doing is the best and only way to do things. Itachi brought him back to Earth and now Naruto is showing signs of improvement but again, we'll have to wait and see what happens in the end.

---------- Post added at 03:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 AM ----------

All things about Sasuke boil down to this: Because of the trauma he endured at a young age he never developed properly, and thus, his ability to form meaningful relationships is damaged.

He's thus a flawed character for a reason, and while Kishi has essentially ruined his, and most other characters developments by losing a hold of his manga, Sasuke isn't as messed up as some would believe.

xXan

December 30, 2011, 03:29 AM

@Delbi

Kakazu and Pain. Two perfect examples of Naruto's arrogance.

What examples? You just trew some names? Elaborate... Also this was about curent Naruto after the Kyuubi "training".

Later on we see this when he first entered the war and didn't listen to anyway.

What? Pages, scans, quotes .. Anything? The only thing he didn't listen to was to sit back and count his toes as his friends where ending up dead to protect his but... Already 40.000 people died protecting him and he noticed that as he got out... 40.000 friking people... Obviously he had no way to get a exact number but he felt the death and how huge it was.

Naruto's arrogance lies in the fact that he believe those who have taught him have taught him everything correctly

So its arrogance to belive in JMan and in Minato... And its arrogance to whant to do what they asked of him as they sacrifeced themself for him right? Then add Nagato, Konan to that list ok?
As he said "I will belive in what JMan belived". Yes that was his answer as he had no idea how to fix the world BUT it was good enough that a mass murderer of kids included whent from that to good and sacrificed himself.

and that what Naruto is doing is the best and only way to do things.

He never said its the best or only way. Its just the only way he knows how to do it. Foolish? Perhaps. Arrogant? No.

Itachi brought him back to Earth and now Naruto is showing signs of improvement but again, we'll have to wait and see what happens in the end.

Itachi had no bloody idea what he was talking about. Itachi had no idea where his DUTY comes from.. Its not from arrogance. The Kyuubi put it better when he stated it was about naivety... Itachi does not know what Nagato, Konan, Minato, Kushina, JMan and so on left him to do. Hell even Itachi ended up putting his faith, trust and hopes into Naruto...

chilibun

December 30, 2011, 09:43 AM

@xXan

40,000 people didn't die to protect Naruto because they care about him. They died to protect the world from Tobi, to deny him access to the Kyuubi. Naruto is just a bystander. Ee had no problem killing him if he needed to. If Naruto actually thought they died for him, that's just another example of his oh so self-important arrogance.

Again, the world does not belong to him and its not his destiny nor duty to save it alone. Everybody, from Kages to fodder, have a duty to save the world. Naruto is so caught up in his own ego, that he fails recognize that it is everybody's responsibility and that everybody has a role to play. Naruto is nothing without the support of the people around him. So yea, Itachi knows exactly what he is talking about.

young simba

December 30, 2011, 10:55 AM

In my humble opinion if I knew I was one of the 10 strongest shinobi alive, I wouldnt want my friends fighting people they can not beat. It has ultimately boiled down to a war of top shinobi. Naruto is naive, but not arrogant. He accepts help, he listens to people ie. the convo with itachi, and he wants no one to lose their lives or be controlled by some ass who wants to brain wash the entire world.

ninjabot

December 30, 2011, 06:30 PM

I woldn't want my friends to fight people they can't beat either, but I wouldn't try to fight the whole world by myself. I'd have the sense to know I can't save the world on my own, and I'd use my strengths to accentuate my ally's strengths. I'd help them win the fight, not take the fight from them, or else when I'm gone they're all screwed.

I blame it on Kishimoto for having double standards. He stated that no one was strong enough to help Naruto fight Pein back in the day, but now he wants us to accept that he can't do it all on his own. I was never of the opinion that there was no one that could've helped Naruto defeat Pein, but he had to make it look that way because it had to be his big "I'm the best now!" moment. Whatever.

Megapithicanthrope

January 01, 2012, 04:13 AM

@ xXan

Whatever, dude. I'm not deliberately misreading the manga and even if I'm wrong about some of it (like the stuff with Onoki) Itachi still called Naruto out for being too full of himself. Naruto and Nagato together are still the Child of Prophecy, the old frog said so.

xXan

January 01, 2012, 07:14 AM

@chilibun

Madara's goal was Naruto, those people where tring to stop Madara from getting to Naruto and KILL HIM. Naruto knows that. In a sense they died for him. That war WAS the protect Bee and Naruto but at a point it got more then that:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-58567-13/naruto/chapter-516.html
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/535/9

This is when it got to more then this and AGAIN its because of Naruto and aparently him going about in his foolishness my view and arrogance your view is achieving:

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/563/14

This is why Naruto moved out:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/535/9

I mean people ending up dead right and left and his friends in mortal danger vs the enemy that is his legacy to stop. Minato died asking this of him and Nagato to, even Konan died stating how Naruto is bla bla bla. Hell at that point the entire war was to protect him (Iruka stated to him). There are multiple factors here but him fighting all the battles he can is in no way arrogance.

Now Raikage was ready to kill him if he could not stop him because he belived that Madara would capture him. Nothing more. He belived that if Naruto was going alone out there he would be captured by Madara and its way better to kill him then that happening.

@ninjabot

That would be foolishness not arrogance and not even that. Naruto is not going anywhere and telling them to hide or go away or anything. In all the places he whent he worked as PART of the group. He states let's fight him TOGEDER and stuff:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/6
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/558/14

Naruto just wants to do as much as he can and take as many blows that where meant for his friends. Not only that aparently what he is doing is WORKING. Read Gaara's speac and the old man's Kage. Perhaps is bad writing but its WORKING. Hell even Raikage changed his view.

I mean aside from Itachi who could he send after Kabuto for one? Of course 1 of his clones would be way better then anybody aside from the kages lol. If anything that was a smart move. Now perhaps he could have asked Itachi to do it but i don't think he belived he had the right to do that.

@Megapithicanthrope

Itachi called him out true BUT he had no idea what is driving Naruto. So Itachi had insuficient information to base that statemant. I linked you before the Kyuubi stating something about the same problem but his word was foolish.. Now the Kyuubi knew about his legacy and what his master, parents, Nagato and so on left him. It apears to be arrogance but its not. Itachi himself can be wrong and proven so. If anything Itachi warned him from what would happen if he would become arrogant.

The elder frog words don't make much sense to me. Nagato himself was saved by Naruto... The only thing Nagato was able to do is open Naruto's eyes on a fact that he would become obvious in time, its just that Naruto was to young. But even so its nothing wrong in the fact that Minato belived Naruto is that person and he will save the world. He got helped alone the way but NARUTO himself is going to end up saving the world. Nagato has no more to add to it and he himself left this mission to Naruto.