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Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 01:01 AM
I have thought of this for a while now and that is the idea of "Absolute Techniques" or moves of the highest caliber. For a move to be classified as an "Absolute Technique" it must have a property which will win the point regardless of opponent interference and must be the highest level of the technique group.

So far in the PoT series, we can confirm that Zero-shiki Serve is an Absolute Technique. It is the highest level serve and no matter what the opponent does, it will win the point (Sanada you rule breaker!).

Also, Ten'imuhou no Kiwami (Pinnacle of Perfection) is an Absolute Technique, although not completely confirmed. It is an aura of the highest level, and no matter what the opponent does they cannot defeat it (yet).

We can also argue if whether or not if Tezuka Phantom is an Absolute Technique. We can say it is classified as an Absolute Technique, but it is conditional. You can argue the same for Fifth Counter too.

Atobe Kingdom is an Absolute Technique (maybe). When the shot is aimed at your absolute blind spots, the point is won. So if it is impossible to return, then it is classified as an Absolute Technique.

The list so far:

Zero-shiki Serve
Ten'imuhou no Kiwami
Tezuka Phantom (Conditional)
Atobe Kingdom


Any others?

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 04:08 AM
Houou Gaeshi after hitting the ground

Kaoz
December 09, 2011, 04:34 AM
Houou Gaeshi after hitting the ground

I don't think that's necessarily the case. After hitting the ground Houou Gaeshi has pretty much the same properties as COOL Drive and Yukimura returned that one from the baseline without any problems.

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 05:16 AM
I don't think that's necessarily the case. After hitting the ground Houou Gaeshi has pretty much the same properties as COOL Drive and Yukimura returned that one from the baseline without any problems.

True, I forgot about it. Sanada's KaRinRai, that puts a heavy burden on the legs, is an absolute technique I think.

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 06:57 AM
Houou Gaeshi can be prevented by hitting slice or Sinkers which counts as opponent interference. KaRinRai = Teleport to ball, negate spin, add power right? Yukimura's Butt Return (LOLOLOL) can return it probably. Wait, should I add Racquet Butt Return to the tier list?

Kaoz
December 09, 2011, 07:59 AM
KaRinRai = Teleport to ball, negate spin, add power right? Yukimura's Butt Return (LOLOLOL) can return it probably. Wait, should I add Racquet Butt Return to the tier list?

It's not a technique in that sense, so I'd say no.

Also Tezuka was very close to returning KaRinRai and probably would have made it if his arm had been in a better condition. I wouldn't put it as absolute, personally.

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 09:01 AM
Then, there are no other techniques instead the ones you mentioned, butt return is just a return with the gut, nothing special xdd

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 09:22 AM
Then, there are no other techniques instead the ones you mentioned, butt return is just a return with the gut, nothing special xdd

Are you kidding? I though it would be a names technique when I saw it. That was just amazingness. Im surprised Konomi allowed Lightning to be handled like that.

I think Tezuka Phantom is absolute since Yamato couldnt actually get around it.

Synchro is definetely absolute. Once Synchro is introduced, it has yet to be defeated in the series without both opponents accessing Syncrho.

Even Niou had to synchro with his opponent. Apparently Tachibana/Chitose have access to Mojuu no Synchro.

Kaoz
December 09, 2011, 09:58 AM
If Synchro was absolute, the Mutsu twins wouldn't have been No. 15 and 16.

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 11:29 AM
What about Kamikakushi? If it stays invisible after the bounce (which it does) then I reckon it might just be absolute. Although I'm not quite sure for this one, if the player can remove the ball's presence (no sound, invisible, no wind) then it would be absolute right?

Also, Zero-shiki Drop Shot could be absolute. But I reckon it is very close to being an absolute but not there. There are quite a few number of players who can return it before the bounce. And what about a perfect Tannhauser Serve? If only my evolved 5th counter idea were real...

Airgrimes
December 09, 2011, 11:30 AM
If Synchro was absolute, the Mutsu twins wouldn't have been No. 15 and 16.

Im pretty sure that beyond No.15 and No.16 could have been initially Singles players.

Since Date as a Singles player would beast any other HSer below him. Ban has been shown to have the power to return or handle all of Kawamura's Hadoukyuu's casually. except the last one.
I believe that Mutsu/Mutsu arent all that great Singles wise and that is the reason they were only No.15 and No.16.
Of course its just a theory since:

We are yet to see Synchro be bested. However we did see Zero-Shiki Serve bested..........

Fuji Shusuke
December 09, 2011, 11:47 AM
What Sanada did was illegal. Sure the timing was flawless but technically when Sanada hit the ball, you can say it bounced on his side first then went to Tezuka's side. So just touching the ball is illegal. TAKE THAT SANADA!

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 12:35 PM
What Sanada did was illegal. Sure the timing was flawless but technically when Sanada hit the ball, you can say it bounced on his side first then went to Tezuka's side. So just touching the ball is illegal. TAKE THAT SANADA!

Point for Tezuka ^^. Nah, butt return is amazing actually, but against Byodouin's serve, fail.

Synchro can't be considered absolute, if the Mutsu twins played against, f.e, Tezuka/Sanada, synchro would be useless there (synchro can't work if the other team hits very powerful, unreturnable shots), they could overpower synchro.

FrostyMouse
December 09, 2011, 12:40 PM
What Sanada did was illegal. Sure the timing was flawless but technically when Sanada hit the ball, you can say it bounced on his side first then went to Tezuka's side. So just touching the ball is illegal. TAKE THAT SANADA!

Good luck with that. Heca's technically illegal and Atobe's poorly drawn smash that hits Hiyoshi's hand in SPoT should end the point, but it doesn't. It's SPoT, you're not looking for realism anyway.


_______________________

Here are some thoughts on this whole idea of absolute techs. Other than TnK, nothing's absolute in the world of SPoT.


[12:29] <Zi> AK can be prevented.
[12:29] <Zi> If you're pressuring Atobe hard enough, he breaks and AK can't be used.
[12:30] <Kaoz> rather, if you're pressuring enough he doesn't have enough time to focus his insight on your blind spots
[12:30] <Kaoz> him enough*
[12:30] <Zi> Either way. Due to the intense focus, AK leads to Atobe injuring himself.
[12:30] <Kaoz> probably, yes
[12:30] <Zi> After that, Atobe isn't able to move well enough to even use AK.
[12:30] <Zi> At least, that's how I interpreted it.
[12:31] <Kaoz> maybe... imo Irie just didn't allow him to use it anymore, using the method I outlined
[12:31] <Zi> Perhaps.
[12:31] <Kaoz> it comes down to the same thing
[12:31] <Zi> Yeah.
[12:31] <Zi> We won't know until we see Atobe play again.
[12:32] <Zi> AK, at least until it gets the assumed power up, doesn't seem powerful enough for the associated risks.
[12:32] <Kaoz> indeed...
[12:32] <Zi> I mean, there's a chance that Atobe can get injured because of using AK.
[12:33] <Zi> TnK is the only thing that has yet to be broken.
[12:33] <Kaoz> yeah
[12:33] <Zi> Even if a move isn't broken, it's usually countered/avoided.
[12:33] <Kaoz> theoretically Tezuka Phantom should work, as long as you can catch up with the ball just once
[12:33] <Zi> Hyakuren is never broken, it's just avoided.
[12:33] <Kaoz> true
[12:34] <Zi> Except, we saw that by using Rin, Sanada can avoid the effects of Phantom, so Sanada found a way to counter it.
[12:34] <Kaoz> yes, but I meant theoretically TPhantom should be able to beat TnK
[12:34] <Zi> If Phantom could be combined with Hyakuren so as to not damage your arm, it would be a much better move.
[12:35] <Zi> TnK breaks anything though. If the shot is fast enough, it might not have time to be pulled outside of the court.
[12:35] <Kaoz> hmm that's a possibility
[12:35] <Zi> Neither Rai nor GUYU are particularly quick shots.
[12:36] <Zi> GUYU doesn't need to be and Rai just bounces oddly plus assumes it'll break your racket if you get your racket on it.
[12:36] <Kaoz> not as fast as TnK shots in any case
[12:36] <Zi> Definitely not.
[12:36] <Zi> The only time that Yuki was even able to return TnK shots is when Echizen slowed it way down so that they could actually play.

LetalHawk
December 09, 2011, 01:15 PM
About the last thing, that's true, if Echizen played with TnK at maximum speed, Yukimura couldn't even react to the shots, that explains why he was able to return them, Echizen wasn't at his true speed didn't he?

Kaoz
December 09, 2011, 01:25 PM
Indeed, starting with the 2nd serve Echizen slows his shots down.

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27274-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-377.html

And it still took Yukimura 4-5 games to even start returning them.

FrostyMouse
December 09, 2011, 01:30 PM
About the last thing, that's true, if Echizen played with TnK at maximum speed, Yukimura couldn't even react to the shots, that explains why he was able to return them, Echizen wasn't at his true speed didn't he?

No, Echizen's not close to being at his max speed.

Here, he slows the serve down, but Yuki still can't react.

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27274-8/prince-of-tennis/chapter-377.html
http://www.mangareader.net/422-27274-9/prince-of-tennis/chapter-377.html

Yuki has to get some balls in play on Echizen's serve, so logically, Echizen slows down his serve even more or somehow Yuki's eyes begin to adapt to the slower pace.

During the seventh game of the match, which would be on Echizen's serve, you see Echizen smashing a ball, which would show that Yuki got a service return back into play.

http://www.mangareader.net/422-27274-14/prince-of-tennis/chapter-377.html

Fuji Shusuke
December 10, 2011, 12:11 PM
When Atobe could not use Kingdom, I reckon it is user inability, not opponent interference. He just received that move and it requires time and effort to master it. If Atobe fully masters it, then it is absolute.

LetalHawk
December 10, 2011, 01:21 PM
When Atobe could not use Kingdom, I reckon it is user inability, not opponent interference. He just received that move and it requires time and effort to master it. If Atobe fully masters it, then it is absolute.

If he masters AK up to the extend that he can use during all the match, then he can defeat everybody, because there's no way to cover up one's absolute blind spots.

FrostyMouse
December 10, 2011, 04:24 PM
If he masters AK up to the extend that he can use during all the match, then he can defeat everybody, because there's no way to cover up one's absolute blind spots.

Except that TnK breaks everything.

Plus, Atobe's never been in the highest tier. He's the most popular character, but he's never at the very top of tier rankings. He's one of the better players, but even with the assumed upgrade for AK that he'll receive, he's not going to leap above Echizen, Kazuya, or Oni. Tezuka would obviously remain above Atobe. :P

Airgrimes
December 10, 2011, 06:05 PM
Except that TnK breaks everything.

Plus, Atobe's never been in the highest tier. He's the most popular character, but he's never at the very top of tier rankings. He's one of the better players, but even with the assumed upgrade for AK that he'll receive, he's not going to leap above Echizen, Kazuya, or Oni. Tezuka would obviously remain above Atobe. :P

Damn... This is completely right. As much as I wanna throw Atobe up our ranking tier, I cant. I dont see Sanada or Yukimura succumbing to the AK.
Although I still see it besting the likes of Fuji.
Thing is, with Shiraishi's Perfect Tennis, could that allow him to work his way around having a blind spot?