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UnknownMugiwara
December 14, 2011, 02:35 PM
So, I after reading todays chapter(14 dec) I just kept wondering, who is still stronger than Luffy after the 2 years. And who has Luffy supassed or is he now/still equal to?
Anyways, I wanted to know what you guys thought about it :D
Here's my list anyway:

Stronger than Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Mihawk "Hawk eye"
Blackbeard (Yea, he is stronger atm.)
Monkey D. Dragon
Oh, and Kaidou and Shanks

Equal to Luffy
Law
Kidd
Big Mam
Rob Lucci (Yep he also trained in the 2 years)
Jinbei

Note: I do not mean only their physical strenge, but their strenge + skill.
Usopp and Nami aren't really that much strong physically, but because of what they can do, they are much much stronger :D

Zehahaha
December 14, 2011, 03:00 PM
Akainu/Aokiji/Kizaru/Mihawk/Doflamingo/Garp/Sengoku/Yonkou/Rayleigh/Marco

Well... He'll grow stronger, probably more stronger than even Roger if you ask me.

Uriel
December 14, 2011, 05:51 PM
I bet there is people stronger than him currently that we don't know. I would say Sengoku and Garp are stronger than him and probably Doflamingo is above him as well.

kkck
December 15, 2011, 07:49 AM
I dunno about lucci being currently stronger than luffy, I would find that a bit weird. Lucci got only to the point he was at and he was already around 30 while luffy got to where he is now and he is not even 20. More so, luffy grew A LOT during the timeskip due to the special training he had (an island full of animals which he would not stand a chance against and haki training with the dark king) and even during the first part of the manga he essentially multiplied his strength when compared to the earlier parts of it. Lucci awakening haki would not be strange however it would be weird that suddenly his training would give him that massive a boost...

UnknownMugiwara
December 15, 2011, 11:00 AM
I didn't say Lucci was stronger than Luffy, I just said that they were still equally strong.

kkck
December 15, 2011, 12:09 PM
Its the same deal.... does it make sense for lucci who got to where he was after 20 years of fighting would suddenly get to where luffy is now? I don't think it adds up, evidently luffy is the one with the significantly greater growth rate. Lucci would have to get out of the past 2 years more than what his past 20 years of training combined got him.

UnknownMugiwara
December 15, 2011, 03:17 PM
Aren't you forgetting that Luffy trained since he was 7?
And yeah, maybe Luffy is a little bit stronger, but overall I think Lucci could have trained just as hard as Luffy during these two years.

kkck
December 15, 2011, 05:00 PM
Luffy has been training for a long time but it is still barely have the time lucci has been around. Under any reasonable scenario lucci has been fighting for 10 more years than luffy lol.There is a very real chance lucci was already about as good as he is going to get....

UnknownMugiwara
December 15, 2011, 05:06 PM
Yea I guess you're right. But Lucci did have a 5 year break before he returned to Enies Lobby.

Zeltrax
December 16, 2011, 12:55 AM
I don't think garp is stronger than luffy. Sengoku, maybe but not garp.
Garp was asked to be an admiral before(that I know) but his age is getting on him and he has no df except haki, so i think
I'll categorize him with "equal to luffy" or "just a bit stronger than luffy".

Kong, Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk is stronger than luffy (only ones I can think of now).
Not sure about Boa Hancock but I'm sure there will be an arc for doflamigo in the future, their strength now is not equal, but close.
I sometimes wonder about Jinbei.
Jinbei is as strong as ace, so I think its logical to assume luffy surpassed jinbei and ace(before timeskip).

ErosVp
December 16, 2011, 06:21 AM
The 4 Yonkous, Garp, Sengoku, Akainu, aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Do Flamingo, Boa Hancok, Marco, Jozu and some others captains from New World that do well in that hellish place are still stronger than Luffy....

I don't see why you think Big Mom is equal to Luffy....

matzik1212
December 16, 2011, 06:24 AM
I think the answer is a lot of people from those we already know are stronger than him ....but let's not forget that there are many pirated in NW we don't know about and are probably much stronger than Luffy but well Luffy gets stronger as they travel so i'm sure he will manage to improve till he meets these strong guys :D

kkck
December 16, 2011, 10:26 AM
I would actually think garp is still somewhat stronger than luffy and at least equal to sengoku. Garp might be old but I would argue he has not gotten to a point where luffy right now would win against him. Garp is a beast, everyone at the war feared what he might do, just look at everyone's reaction when he acted and how easily he kicked marco out of the platform. Luffy would not be spanked by garp anymore but defeating him is an entirely different deal.

Kukriblades
December 16, 2011, 02:06 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned magellan.

okaneman
December 17, 2011, 01:32 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned magellan.

magellan? before, yes he is stronger, but now, with luffy's haki, i think he can overcome him by now.


Luffy has been training for a long time but it is still barely have the time lucci has been around. Under any reasonable scenario lucci has been fighting for 10 more years than luffy lol.There is a very real chance lucci was already about as good as he is going to get....

you must know, it's not just luffy and friends only got training, all the major characters must also be training for the NW by now... that lucci must be training beyond crazy just to beat luffy again... don't expect the characters stays the same in terms of strength and so on after the time skip...

kkck
December 17, 2011, 08:42 PM
Dunno if luffy would defeat magellan. Certainly luffy is stronger now by quite a bit to put it mildly however as far as we know magellan's poison would be just as effective now (except if luffy has immunity to poison now). It is altogether possible they could kill each other though, luffy has the firepower but magellan has the poison and luffy does not have the means to fight at a range without touching the guy. As long as luffy needs to make actual contact with magellan to win then I don't see things ending well for him.

I agree in that a bunch of other characters should be training, I merely question lucci's potential and growth rate in respect to luffy. At this point he would not even be able to hold rokushiki over luffy as the kid has developed his own versions of those techniques (armor hardening, snake shot, his rubber body would already mimic kamie, and soru). Luffy had formal haki training for 2 years and developed his gears to an entire new level, would it make sense lucci somehow kept up as a rogue world government agent? I don't see many scenarios where lucci would get the same guidance which allow luffy his insane growth rate honestly, not that lucci had that to begin with.

okaneman
December 18, 2011, 12:58 AM
and that blackbeard now is really scary. he climb up to be a yonkou without using the gura2 fruit. if he happens to obtain haki, well, you know.. big mam also is a monster, apparantly a sweet obsessed and would destroy anything for the sake of it, so looking forward to see her next chapters...

kkck
December 18, 2011, 08:48 AM
I think the "without the gura gura no mi" part was a mistranslation. Another one said he indeed used the fruit which makes more sense.

OdaForPresident
December 20, 2011, 07:59 AM
Shanks' officers should also be stronger than Luffy right now, so Ben Beckman, Lucky Roux and Yassop.

tret16
December 20, 2011, 12:53 PM
I think the "without the gura gura no mi" part was a mistranslation. Another one said he indeed used the fruit which makes more sense.

Your right about that. He does infact use the gura gura no mi. The translation on manga reader isn't alway's the best one to have. If you want to have a more accurate one when it comes to translations, go on eatmanga.com there translations are usually best. the only down side to the site is on very rare accasions they are missing one page one the chapter, in which case you can alway's go to manga reader and see the missing page on that site... But as for the translations, eatmanga is better then manga reader.

Shinobuden
February 02, 2012, 05:22 PM
Considering the level of strength Lucci was at two years ago I don't think much will have changed by now, Luffy has gone through drastic changes these past two years and he's become a completely different person in terms of strength. *If* they were to fight again, I imagine the outcome would be the same as with the Pacifista when the Straw Hats met up on Sabaody again, one hit KO. And as far as I have seen Lucci doesn't seem to particularly hold a grudge against Luffy, at least not as much as he does against Spandam.

I actually think Luffy would have quite a good chance of beating Magellan as he is now. Given his two years of training and having unlocked the full potential of his Haki, and the fact he now has an immunity to a very large sortiment of poisons (he was unfazed by Hyouzou's poison just after they arrived at Fishman Island). Then again, Magellan may still have a lot of different poisons that Luffy hasn't been struck with yet...more specifically Venom Demon. If Haki such as armament is able to protect him from the poison that would greatly increase Luffy's chances of winning but we haven't seen the full extent of that ability yet. I personally doubt they'll cross paths again, to me it's more of a what if.

Other than that I think there are lots of characters that are stronger than Luffy, and not just the known ones. They're in the New World now, and it's not exactly a walk in the park there. He may have become monstrously strong in these past two years and his Haki will give him a huge advantage against other devil fruit users but he's bound to run into someone as strong as he is at some point.

Page356
February 02, 2012, 05:48 PM
I think he should be able to take most anyone besides most of the emperors and some of their captains, and maybe an admiral or two. This is all just speculation but I think Luffy was probably a top tier supernova and some of them seem to be doing fine in the new world, even openly attacking Big Mam's ships. If they have gotten that powerful then with the specialized training that Luffy has recieved he should be able to handle just about anything. Plus Reyleigh left early during the training, so there must have been some reason he'd do that, so perhaps Luffy is stronger than we think.

Uriel
February 02, 2012, 08:56 PM
Attacking a ship full of fodders is not "doing well" in the New World. :/ And it's not a provocation since Big Mom EATS her fodders.
About Magellan...HE was defeated by Shiryu. So there must be some way to defeat him and not by immunity to poison exactly.

Drmke
February 02, 2012, 09:03 PM
This is kind of a strange thread title. Should I make a list?

Shinobuden
February 02, 2012, 09:35 PM
About Magellan...HE was defeated by Shiryu. So there must be some way to defeat him and not by immunity to poison exactly.

Shiryu has been shown to be pretty darn strong and fast, that and he uses a sword. He most likely wounded Magellan without physically touching him like Luffy did with his fists. That's a pretty big difference.

And I never said immunity to his poison by itself would be enough to take him down, I merely said it would give Luffy more of an advantage if they were to fight again. Considering the vast amounts of poisons Magellan uses in his attacks and the immunities Luffy's body has built up for them. Then again, the poisons his attacks uses are generated at random and there are so many of them the doctors in Impel Down can't even make any antidotes for it so it's possible it wouldn't change anything. But it's an advantage nonetheless, IF he were to be struck by the same poisons again.

kkck
February 02, 2012, 09:59 PM
Well, the issue with magellan is not IMO to kill him per say. The thing is to kill him while staying alive yourself. Given the circumstances I would think that crocodile or jinbe would have indeed defeated magellan had they fought him (fishman karate or dehydration would do wonders against him IMO) however given the wide area of effect of magellan's abilities and the fact that the prison is a relatively close space which works to magellan's advantage it is unlikely either of them would have walked out of that one without being poisoned.

Shinobuden
February 02, 2012, 10:20 PM
^
Good point. Still doesn't quite explain how Shiryu survived the massive amount of poison though, if he now was poisoned during his fight with Magellan. I doubt Ivankov felt generous and dug into his cell then gave him some hormones to get through it. And as has been stated, the doctors wouldn't have been much help either.

Could always have been a non-lethal amount of poison, just enough to incapacitate him maybe?

kkck
February 02, 2012, 10:48 PM
Was it actually said shiryu was the one who defeated magellan? I don't think that was actually said.... More so, magellan fighting a level 6 prisoner on his own and losing is not that far fetched. Gear 2 luffy was actually capable enough of punching magellan which means in the grand scheme of things magellan was hardly powerful physically (if anything, he was not worth a damn physically if a rookie could take him on in that department). Level 6 had a number of people who the world government deemed to dangerous to even keep their names in history, there were probably a number of fruit users and people with insane skills there. If level 6 broke out there I could easily see magellan getting killed even if his overly hax ability would result in him taking a few guys with him. Its not like his ability can be countered with willpower or strength, even WB in his prime would die from poison just as the next guy...

Shinobuden
February 03, 2012, 06:56 AM
That's a pretty good question now that you mention it. I was always pretty sure Shiryu defeated Magellan, but I'm not so sure now. I don't know if there is anyone else in Impel Down besides Magellan who has the power to defeat Shiryu, other than Level 6 prisoners. It is after all an unseen battle, all we know is that Shiryu was locked up in Level 6 which means Magellan must have won. Either that or Shiryu was too weakened after their fight to put up any further resistance.

I agree with Magellan not being too strong physically, and Luffy's attacks did a good number on him when they first connected but it didn't take him long to recover from them either. That and after he defeated Luffy he didn't seem to be suffering from his injuries that much as he just casually walked away. I do agree that if enough firepower were to hit Magellan he would lose pretty easily though.

As for Whitebeard, it took a lot to kill him. It took numerous gunshots, stabs, cannon balls, half his head being ripped off then a barrage from Blackbeard's underlings to kill him...and this was when he was old. While it may be true that no matter how strong you are you can't defend yourself from poison, I doubt Whitebeard in his prime would be done in that easily from poison. But it's all up to speculation really.

Zehahaha
February 03, 2012, 10:16 AM
Shiryu has been shown to be pretty darn strong and fast, that and he uses a sword. He most likely wounded Magellan without physically touching him like Luffy did with his fists. That's a pretty big difference.



He did touch him, or else Luffy wouldn't have poison in his hands.

Shinobuden
February 03, 2012, 10:30 AM
He did touch him, or else Luffy wouldn't have poison in his hands.

I would say read my post again more thoroughly, since you obviously didn't. But, I'll elaborate just for you.

Shiryu uses a sword, thus he could fight Magellan without physically touching him with any of his body parts (such as fists, as said above). Luffy, on the other hand couldn't since he uses his fists to fight, and had to physically touch Magellan and in the process poisoning himself. Thus, Shiryu had more of a chance of beating Magellan than Luffy, since Shiryu uses an otherwise inanimate object, a weapon. Of course, the sword could be poisoned in theory but that's another subject of discussion. So, to summarize...I didn't say Luffy *didn't* touch him, I said Magellan didn't since he uses a sword.

Zehahaha
February 03, 2012, 10:40 AM
Aw shit my mistake, I don't disagree with you about Shiryuu thing, misread the Luffy part, sorry

Shinobuden
February 03, 2012, 10:59 AM
Aw shit my mistake, I don't disagree with you about Shiryuu thing, misread the Luffy part, sorry

No sweat. I realize I write a bit incoherently sometimes, so you're not really at fault. I need to realize that just because I understand what *I* mean doesn't mean everyone else will. Didn't mean to come across as a douche there. I'll try to be more specific in the future.

sudhush
February 07, 2012, 08:51 PM
Aokiji / Akainu / Kizaru / Mihawk / Doflamingo / Garp / Sengoku / Yonkou / Rayleigh / Marco / Smoker
are indeed stronger the Luffy
But What about the Escaped prisoners from Impel Down???
According to Sengoku's Expression when mentioned it was very Bad.
I think there are lot of Strong People out there not known to yet

ish3
February 07, 2012, 11:06 PM
There is no proof Smoker is stronger but he was unable to be on par with him his training would be pointless they're not showing his character for no reason I feel anyway. All the others you mentioned before are fine though as we haven't seen Luffy's full strength either. Nor the crew. Most of the mid tiers at the war and high tiers are stronger now as of two years after the timeskip well have to see. I doubt we'll see him lose fights but he'll escape and fight on par if not defeat a lot of people. He lost a ton of battles after Rob Lucci. I don't think we'll be seeing him lose unless specific circumstances permit him to give himself up for the crew to live in the end of the manga. He will have rough life and death battles though I can't wait. :)

kkck
February 09, 2012, 10:13 AM
Smoker stronger than luffy? Why? I am sure he is pretty damn strong but 2 years ago the only thing he realistically had over luffy was the fact that he was intangible. I don't think that is going to be an issue nowadays. I do think that safe for the intangible thing smoker and luffy were actually equals 2 years ago....

THM Nindo
February 09, 2012, 11:16 AM
Lol about Rob Lucci.
I really hope we never see him again.

There are plenty of people stronge than Luffy right now, but he wiill end up surpassing them all soon.
The thing is... since he probably won't go and train again until the end of the manga, I don't see how he can suddenly become better.

This manga is different from the other...
It's not like he could train to learn FRS (like in Naruto), or stop time and train to become a god (like in Bleach).

In any case, he beat people that were far stronger than him in the first part of the manga (Crocodile, Enel), so he might be able to beat stronger people in Part 2 as well...

Kaiten
February 10, 2012, 09:03 PM
There are plenty of characters stronger than Luffy, my question is what difference does it make? His strength, or lack thereof, in comparison to other characters has hardly effected the plot or outcome of fights thus far. Nor will it likely be a deciding factor later in the series. When it comes time to fight, he will fight irregardless of how much stronger his opponent is. Databook stats and special techniques don't play a large role in One Piece fights.

Momotaros
March 08, 2012, 03:25 PM
There are plenty of characters stronger than Luffy, my question is what difference does it make? His strength, or lack thereof, in comparison to other characters has hardly effected the plot or outcome of fights thus far. Nor will it likely be a deciding factor later in the series. When it comes time to fight, he will fight irregardless of how much stronger his opponent is. Databook stats and special techniques don't play a large role in One Piece fights.

Agreed, but I do feel that special techniques do play a large role in One Piece fights, as opposed to dumb power-ups. For me, the special attacks unique to the characters are what drive the fights. It's really cool seeing Luffy use his iconic attacks against new foes as well as new attacks that he just made up or have been working.

Surprise
March 08, 2012, 11:21 PM
I think that gear 2 plus kenbunshoku haki could help luffy not get poisoned by anything he doesn't have an immunity to, and busoshoku haki could let luffy punch magellan without getting poisoned, it has that property. I'm going to give the edge to luffy but it wouldn't be a blowout

mattiaildivino
March 13, 2012, 05:15 PM
I think the admirals are still stronger than luffy,but i'd like him to have surpassed at least the shichibukais. of course the emperors are still too far above him,except for BB who is nearer them nonetheless.

warsetone
March 14, 2012, 02:19 AM
nah I got a feeling that BB is probably the strongest of the yonkous at the moment
- Big Mom and Kaido might lose to luffy in the upcoming arcs if they end up fighting eachother
- I dont think Garp and Sengoku are stronger than luffy anymore, they are getting old, the same goes to rayleigh

I'd go with Mihawk, Doflamingo, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Dragon, Shanks, BB, and maybe Kaido/Big Mom (we will have to see how they fare when they show up)

- the rest known characters are equal to luffy at best

--------

notice the list is pretty much still old list of top shichibukai + admirals + yonkou + dragon... hasnt changed much lol and they've all been mentioned through out the serie

Mihawk/Dragon/Shanks (first arc), BB (second arc), Doflamingo (third arc), Admirals (fourth arc, *akainu was first mentioned in third arc in anime), Kaido (fifth arc), Big Mom (eighth arc, fifth arc if she is the same person mentioned by Lola)

Now here is what I think:

if you reverse this order, you get:

1) Big Mom and Kaido appeared too late compared to other characters from this list, so expect them to be eliminated first,
2) followed by Aokiji/Kizaru (Aokiji might avoid a fight)
3) final opponents are BB/Akainu/Doflamingo

Shanks/Dragon/Mihawk wouldnt be elimitated by luffy via fighting

By now, we shouldve already heard all characters in the OP universe that are powerful enough to be heard. There shouldn't be anyone else out of the blue that's this powerful yet we still don't know about. If we haven't heard of their names, then they are probably not that famous/powerful to be remembered.
RMB that the top forces in OP are Shichibukai/Marine HQ/Yonkou/Dragon

tomte
March 14, 2012, 03:37 AM
Big Mam? kidding? so far it's impossible for Luffy to beat him. let's what will happen next. one piece 660 (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v60/c660/) is coming out soon:teehee:teehee:teehee

Filster
March 14, 2012, 05:42 PM
So, I after reading todays chapter(14 dec) I just kept wondering, who is still stronger than Luffy after the 2 years. And who has Luffy supassed or is he now/still equal to?
Anyways, I wanted to know what you guys thought about it :D
Here's my list anyway:

Stronger than Luffy
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Mihawk "Hawk eye"
Blackbeard (Yea, he is stronger atm.)
Monkey D. Dragon
Oh, and Kaidou and Shanks

Equal to Luffy
Law
Kidd
Big Mam
Rob Lucci (Yep he also trained in the 2 years)
Jinbei

Note: I do not mean only their physical strenge, but their strenge + skill.
Usopp and Nami aren't really that much strong physically, but because of what they can do, they are much much stronger :D

I hardly dought Luffy is equal to Big MoM,although about the other statements your correct,i dont know about Lucci thought,Luffy progressed a long way after he defeated him... So i think hes not equal.

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------


Big Mam? kidding? so far it's impossible for Luffy to beat him. let's what will happen next. one piece 660 (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v60/c660/) is coming out soon:teehee:teehee:teehee

and its not him,its her...

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------


nah I got a feeling that BB is probably the strongest of the yonkous at the moment
- Big Mom and Kaido might lose to luffy in the upcoming arcs if they end up fighting eachother
- I dont think Garp and Sengoku are stronger than luffy anymore, they are getting old, the same goes to rayleigh

I'd go with Mihawk, Doflamingo, Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Dragon, Shanks, BB, and maybe Kaido/Big Mom (we will have to see how they fare when they show up)



- the rest known characters are equal to luffy at best

--------

notice the list is pretty much still old list of top shichibukai + admirals + yonkou + dragon... hasnt changed much lol and they've all been mentioned through out the serie

Mihawk/Dragon/Shanks (first arc), BB (second arc), Doflamingo (third arc), Admirals (fourth arc, *akainu was first mentioned in third arc in anime), Kaido (fifth arc), Big Mom (eighth arc, fifth arc if she is the same person mentioned by Lola)

Now here is what I think:

if you reverse this order, you get:

1) Big Mom and Kaido appeared too late compared to other characters from this list, so expect them to be eliminated first,
2) followed by Aokiji/Kizaru (Aokiji might avoid a fight)
3) final opponents are BB/Akainu/Doflamingo

Shanks/Dragon/Mihawk wouldnt be elimitated by luffy via fighting

By now, we shouldve already heard all characters in the OP universe that are powerful enough to be heard. There shouldn't be anyone else out of the blue that's this powerful yet we still don't know about. If we haven't heard of their names, then they are probably not that famous/powerful to be remembered.
RMB that the top forces in OP are Shichibukai/Marine HQ/Yonkou/Dragon

Shanks(the red-haired pirates) are currently stronger than BB,i can guarantee that.Beaucse BB wouldent wait one second to kill Shanks.Hes not that stupid...
And i think Shanks is currently the strongest pirate in the one piece world,excluding Dragon(hes no pirate)....

PS: Luffy cant take on kaidou or Big MoM yet,they arent King's of the sea for nothing dude.If you can beat a younkou after 2 years of training ,than people would train more and go out to do it....

hyper_megaman
March 14, 2012, 10:30 PM
this isn't dragonball, not everything is decided by power alone, you can't rank people in a straight line hierarchy

having seen the latest chapter, i highly doubt anyone can match law easily bar an ambush happening. law has TK control over everything in his room power range, and his room is shown to be huge now

luffy's powers are too physical based to enable him to fight law well. smoker would be able to fight law well though.

rob lucci was always stronger than luffy anyway. he's a brute strength genius, reaching 4000 douriki on brute strength alone (even gifted individuals like kaku and jyabura could only reach 2000 or thereabouts). luffy was never even close to lucci. he merely depended on gear 2nd to increase his strength momentarily at the expense of stamina.

if lucci learns haki anytime, he'd be nigh unstoppable

Page356
March 15, 2012, 04:26 PM
I'm a proponnent of Luffy being equal to Big Mam. Let's face it, there shouldn't be anymore major power ups unless Luffy gains another devil fruit ability, which although possible I personally don't believe DF powers mean too much when faced with haki, fighting ability, and brute strength. That being said, when he faces her he'll have to be able to win right? Nobody thinks, "hey, Luffy is totally gonna lose to Big Mam if and when they face" so you pretty much have to think he's totally close to her fighting level if he's gonna face her in 2-3 arcs, which should be about right if you believe that One Piece is slightly over half way complete and that Big Mam is not the main/final villain.

mattiaildivino
March 16, 2012, 08:31 AM
a lot of you are crazy,imo. forgive me,but how can you say that luffy is equal to an emperor??? emperors are the strongest pirates and it was stated that to deal with them HQ and shichibukai are needed! so goes for mihawk,he can't be stronger than an emperor,otherwise he could have stopped WB or marco by himself.

UnknownMugiwara
March 16, 2012, 08:52 AM
Just because WB was that strong doesn't mean the other emperors are that strong.. 1 Emperors strength isn't equal all emperors strengths..

hyper_megaman
March 16, 2012, 09:08 AM
a lot of you are crazy,imo. forgive me,but how can you say that luffy is equal to an emperor??? emperors are the strongest pirates and it was stated that to deal with them HQ and shichibukai are needed! so goes for mihawk,he can't be stronger than an emperor,otherwise he could have stopped WB or marco by himself.

emperors are known for their capability in keeping territories, not their fighting ability

of course fighting power would in some way influence how their crew and the general public respect them, so they would have to be decently strong, but they don't necessarily have to be top 5 or top 10 in the world

buggy could easily be an emperor now with his stupidly infatuated crew fighting in his stead. doesn't make him as strong as wb in that case, i think even usopp could beat him

fcToho
March 16, 2012, 03:07 PM
I will make it short, here's my breakdown:

stronger (there are still plenty, don't worry) (no particular order)

Kong (don't think this will be relevant)
Akainu
Kizaru + 2 new Admirals :zomg
Aokiji
still Sengoku + Garp (won't be relevant, maybe Garp as a test)
Dragon
Mihawk
Doflamingo
Blackbeard
Shanks
Kaido
Big Mom
Magellan
(Rayleigh)


relatively equal

Law
Kid
Kuma
Ivankov
Hancock
Marco
Smoker


overcome

Crocodile
Rob Lucci
Jinbei
Moriah
Jozu
(generally the first mates in my eyes. debatable)
other Vice Admirals
other Supernovas


Don't know if I forgot someone (relevant).

So in the end, my conclusion is that the timeskip didn't help Luffy this much to become much stronger than many other pirates/marines, but more to close the gap to the top. But reaching it will fortunately only happen as the story advances.

edit:
I think the important point is, that Luffy has become equal to people like Kuma/Marco (in my eyes) but is still progressing as in the first part. So now he can win fights like against Crocodile/Rob Lucci but with contrahents as Big Mom/Magellan.
And with doing so (nearly deathmatches for him) he becomes equal/somewhat stronger.

mattiaildivino
March 16, 2012, 04:14 PM
Just because WB was that strong doesn't mean the other emperors are that strong.. 1 Emperors strength isn't equal all emperors strengths..

sure? all 3 emperors could stand him so they were more or less at the same level. As someone already said here: it can't be that between emperors there is much strength difference ,hence it can't be Emperor A >>>> Emperor B , nor Emperor A > Emperor B ,because they wouldn't be yonkous anymore,but sankous ! I could understand if they were as akainu and aokiji,equal with a winner after some days of fight,perhpas there is even a bigger difference,but surely the level is quite even.

UnknownMugiwara
March 16, 2012, 05:00 PM
As Hyper_Megaman said, they are emporers because they have conquered islands as their territories in the NW.. It doesn't have to be because of their stregth, if they have enough (more) people in their crew they would win the fight. That's what Don Creek did (however that was not in Grand line)

mattiaildivino
March 16, 2012, 05:10 PM
As Hyper_Megaman said, they are emporers because they have conquered islands as their territories in the NW.. It doesn't have to be because of their stregth, if they have enough (more) people in their crew they would win the fight. That's what Don Creek did (however that was not in Grand line)

those fodders don't matter anymore in new world,in fact against a strong enemy those fodders can't help but die,as mihawk "taught" them. and again,it's false what you said,since garp had stated that here http://www.mangareader.net/103-2539-7/one-piece/chapter-432.html . Mihawk possesses an island himself,that doesn't make him an emperor. you are mistaking the cause and the effect,imo. I mean,it's not that you are emperor because you reign,you reign because you are emperor!

UnknownMugiwara
March 17, 2012, 12:12 PM
So what you're saying is that as soon as Luffy kicks BM's ass he will become an emperor because he know has ONE island.. That's stupid, having one island doesn't make you an emperor, having ten do (depending on the number of islands in the new world.)
Also fodder does matter, 1 G-5 marine may not be strong but if you have a 1000, then they are trouble.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

Also when was it shown/stated that Mihawk has an island in the New World?

Zehahaha
March 18, 2012, 01:38 PM
Guys guys... Luffy will never have, nor even give a fuck, about the title of Yonko.
The whole notion of Yonko will disappear as soon as Luffy will defeat BM and make the balance crumble IMO. The one who wants to become PK has to break this balance and defeat those 4 to become ultimately the PK.

I think that this is how it is gonna be : Luffy will defeat BM ----> Status quo is broken, huge turmoil will happen in the NW where Marines, Pirates, all the big forces will play a part, after long and terrific battles and stuff, in which I believe, Luffy vs BB will be the final act of those fights, Luffy will emerge as the PK. Somehow, it is gonna follow nearly the same scheme as in the first half : Luffy defeated Crocodile, empty spot in the Shichibukai, which lead to BB wanting to be part of it, which lead to him giving Ace to the Marines, which eventually lead to the war and the death of WB/Ace, and the apparition of a new force called BB.

mattiaildivino
March 19, 2012, 10:54 AM
So what you're saying is that as soon as Luffy kicks BM's ass he will become an emperor because he know has ONE island.. That's stupid, having one island doesn't make you an emperor, having ten do (depending on the number of islands in the new world.)
Also fodder does matter, 1 G-5 marine may not be strong but if you have a 1000, then they are trouble.

---------- Post added at 06:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

Also when was it shown/stated that Mihawk has an island in the New World?
where did you read these posts of mine???mihawk has got an island,but I didn't say he has got it in the NW. Furthermore,fodders are fodders,read again fishmen arc,50 thousands were defeated with a glance

kkck
March 19, 2012, 12:35 PM
Well, mihawk being comparable in strength to a yonko does not necessarily mean he has to take over territory and whatnot. He could simply not give a fuck about pirate shenanigans and take a job with the government which would give him the freedom to fight at his convenience only with people who can somehow amuse him when he is bored (say, the occasional east blue worthless pirate with a 50 ship fleet or someone he believes could be a match for his sword) while not having to bother fighting everyone he sees along the way.

As for luffy vs big mom, I don't think we have a way to know. Big mom is not necessarily as strong as WB and that is extremely important. We also have no clue whatsoever of when luffy will fight her. For all we know luffy ends up fighting her 4 arcs from now in which case it would mean he would have substantial growth from when the challenge was issued and it would make perfect sense for him to win against her. Luffy right now is insanely strong, he is not the worthless powerless rookie he was in the first part of the manga and he is going to keep getting stronger.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 PM ----------


where did you read these posts of mine???mihawk has got an island,but I didn't say he has got it in the NW. Furthermore,fodders are fodders,read again fishmen arc,50 thousands were defeated with a glance

Well, the 50000 fishmen who were taken out were not necessarily warriors... I don't think their strength deserved any praise beyond being stronger than the average fishmen.... Based on what we have seen, it seems like luffy is capable of taking out regular pirates worth up to 30 mil with haki (the guy who impersonated him and mr 3 for instance).... It would not be weird for grand line pirates to be stronger than individual pirates worth that much though, if I recall tashigi did mention the lot of them was trained to reflect cannon fire which is not small feat (although it does not make them beasts in any form). As luffy moves on in the new world it is likely that his conqueror's haki will not quite be enough to take out armies.

Lord Rayleigh
March 19, 2012, 07:26 PM
I think that there are many people in the New World who are stronger than Luffy right now. For example, the top fighters among Yonko's crew would beat Luffy with ease, just like strong captains would do. Luffy has only learned Haki which is a must-have but still developped among new world pirates.

It is just like when Luffy entered Paradise : most of the famous people there are stronger but he will surpass them all and quickly, the same way he did in the past with an exponential growth from East Blue to Marineford. He has a massive potential because of his harsh training and now he only lacks experience. New World is exactly the experience which is going to turn him from candidate to Pirate King, from middle tiers to world top fighters.

Here's a previous post on my view about 2-years training and world superpowers :
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/74836-One-Piece-655-Discussion?p=2777542&viewfull=1#post2777542

mattiaildivino
March 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
@KKck,how can you compare current rufy to the one who made Mr.3 fall down 2 years ago at MF??? surely luffy has become stronger,and his conqueror's haki must have increased as well. anyway,as you pointed out,numbers don't matter when we are talking about fodders. a G-5 marine is fodder but 1000 aren't,unknownmugiwara said. I'd disagree: if you can crush (in the sense that you literally own him) a G-5 marine,1000 of the same level wouldn't be a problem,you need just some more time.

Cyrs
March 20, 2012, 11:34 PM
Big Mom's way stronger than Luffy right now. But he will get stronger and stronger, and eventually kick her ass.

Many people are stronger than Luffy, but the thing with Luffy is that he's always getting stronger. Eventually, he will be the strongest!

But for now, a few of the people stronger than Luffy are

Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Sengoku
Garp

Blackbeard
Big Mom
Kaidou
Shanks

Mihawk
Doflamingo
Kuma

Dragon
Ivankov

...and others, too. But they won't be stronger than him for long. He'll be Pirate King after all, right?

Shinobuden
March 22, 2012, 08:33 AM
I think some people underestimate the strength of New World pirates. The New World is even more cruel and unforgiving than Paradise, the storms and season changes in Paradise pales in comparison to the New World (gravity even reverses there for crying out loud) so it only makes sense the pirates there have the physical strength and mental fortitude to sail there.

Luffy's gotten stronger and he has Haki now on top of that but he's still nothing more than a newcomer in the New World, so I think even Luffy would have trouble against New World veterans. Naturally this is just an assumption as we've seen Luffy emerge victorious against overwhelming odds before.

mattiaildivino
March 24, 2012, 09:54 AM
I see that a lot of you guys consider law and kid stronger than rufy. bu that's clearly impossible,imo. although their bounties might have surpassed rufy's,that doesn't mean they are stronger than him. Kid's bounty was higher than him but,as shakky told the SH,the onlt supernovas worthy of being an over 300 M was rufy. thereby rufy spent 2 years in training,while the others went on with their plans. so rufy now must be even stronger than them,although they should know NW better than him.

hoeru
March 24, 2012, 10:24 AM
I'm just throwing in a list of known characters:

After the Timeskip, currently while on Punk Hazard:

Kizaru
Sakazuki
Kuzan
Rayleigh
Marco
Blackbeard
Shanks
Bigmom
Kaidou
Mihawk
Vista
Siliew
Doflamingo


I simply don't expect Luffy to beat them now since they have been classified as ubermonsters. Either their DF powers or their haki strength and experience is too much ahead of Luffy - or they are simply the absolute experts with their fighting skills even from what we've seen before the timeskip. I'm not trying to lower neither the training itself nor the trainers nor the trainees. It's just that Luffy (and his crew) still need some development.

Therefore, I'd say that the Sabaody rookie crews ("The Eleven Supernovae") are also still rivals on par to Luffy and his crew, while I'm curious why Oda let Bonney out of Sakazuki's grip - and how she did this. That could possibly make her the biggest and strongest of Luffy's rivals.

mattiaildivino
March 24, 2012, 02:14 PM
I don't understand why you guys put mihawk and doflamingo above the other shichibukais... except mihawk,I don't see them so strong. I also thought tha kuma would be the strongest amongst them because he can teleport,possesses a powerful DF,and can also use kizaru's beams

Zehahaha
March 24, 2012, 05:48 PM
I think some people underestimate the strength of New World pirates. The New World is even more cruel and unforgiving than Paradise, the storms and season changes in Paradise pales in comparison to the New World (gravity even reverses there for crying out loud) so it only makes sense the pirates there have the physical strength and mental fortitude to sail there.

Luffy's gotten stronger and he has Haki now on top of that but he's still nothing more than a newcomer in the New World, so I think even Luffy would have trouble against New World veterans. Naturally this is just an assumption as we've seen Luffy emerge victorious against overwhelming odds before.

Yeah, I recall back at East Blue how " Paradise " was hyped and stuff... It turned out to be a nice sea. So seriously, all the hyping shouldn't be taken so seriously by readers.
Sure NW is scary, and different from Paradise, but all that hyping was from the perspective of shitty pirates (Like the one Kidd's caught), and also, from the few scenes at the war showcasing the strenght of the NW's captains, they weren't that impressive at all.

Shinobuden
March 28, 2012, 07:34 PM
Yeah, I recall back at East Blue how " Paradise " was hyped and stuff... It turned out to be a nice sea. So seriously, all the hyping shouldn't be taken so seriously by readers.
Sure NW is scary, and different from Paradise, but all that hyping was from the perspective of shitty pirates (Like the one Kidd's caught), and also, from the few scenes at the war showcasing the strenght of the NW's captains, they weren't that impressive at all.

I think it's still too early to assume the pirates in the NW won't present any challenge. I agree the showcasing during the war wasn't too impressive but I hardly think the captains shown there are enough to represent the majority of pirates that most likely inhabit the NW. And let's not forget the Straw Hats are still only on their first island there.

I have to disagree with Paradise being a "nice" sea however. Take Don Krieg for example, his fleet got cut up by Mihawk AND was hit by a storm out of nowhere. Brook's crew was hit by a disease which forced the remaining uninfected crew to leave Yorki and the other infected crew members behind only to later be attacked by enemy pirates who had coated their weapons with poison, killing the remaining crew members and Brook himself. Each of these pirate crews were strong in their own right but there's *always* someone stronger.

It may have been interpreted as a "nice" sea when seen in Luffy and co's point of view but the Straw Hats have an outstanding navigator on their side who can sense the weather and avoid cyclones while having a 41 degree fever, not all captains have that kind of luxury on their side...you've seen what the rest of the Straw Hats can do, just used Nami as an example for the weather.

Just my two cents.

Zehahaha
April 01, 2012, 01:16 PM
I think it's still too early to assume the pirates in the NW won't present any challenge. I agree the showcasing during the war wasn't too impressive but I hardly think the captains shown there are enough to represent the majority of pirates that most likely inhabit the NW. And let's not forget the Straw Hats are still only on their first island there.

I have to disagree with Paradise being a "nice" sea however. Take Don Krieg for example, his fleet got cut up by Mihawk AND was hit by a storm out of nowhere. Brook's crew was hit by a disease which forced the remaining uninfected crew to leave Yorki and the other infected crew members behind only to later be attacked by enemy pirates who had coated their weapons with poison, killing the remaining crew members and Brook himself. Each of these pirate crews were strong in their own right but there's *always* someone stronger.

It may have been interpreted as a "nice" sea when seen in Luffy and co's point of view but the Straw Hats have an outstanding navigator on their side who can sense the weather and avoid cyclones while having a 41 degree fever, not all captains have that kind of luxury on their side...you've seen what the rest of the Straw Hats can do, just used Nami as an example for the weather.

Just my two cents.

But this whole adventure it's from the point of view of the SH's... I don't give a flying fuck about Krieg & co...
The adventure in the NW will be from the point of view of the SH's...

Shinobuden
April 02, 2012, 02:59 AM
But this whole adventure it's from the point of view of the SH's... I don't give a flying fuck about Krieg & co...
The adventure in the NW will be from the point of view of the SH's...

Alright. I was merely trying to put up a good debate.

Zehahaha
April 02, 2012, 03:04 AM
Alright. I was merely trying to put up a good debate.

I know that, but I just wanted to say, for Krieg or any shitty pirate, Paradise is hell etc.
But honestly, from the point of view of the SH's, it was never like that.

I do expect the NW to be something else, but it will not be like how other shitty pirate were hyping it, that's why I said we shouldn't take their words literally. What they may see as hell, Luffy may see it as paradise.

Shinobuden
April 02, 2012, 09:48 AM
I know that, but I just wanted to say, for Krieg or any shitty pirate, Paradise is hell etc.
But honestly, from the point of view of the SH's, it was never like that.

I do expect the NW to be something else, but it will not be like how other shitty pirate were hyping it, that's why I said we shouldn't take their words literally. What they may see as hell, Luffy may see it as paradise.

True enough, good point too. I've yet to see anything that scares Luffy, if you don't count angry Nami or Garp.

Great Potato
June 20, 2012, 02:32 PM
I'm including dead characters too


-Dragon
-Kong
-Sengoku
-Akainu
-Aokiji
-Kizaru
-Garp
-Tsuru
-John Giant
-Onigumo
-Doberman
-Mihawk
-Doflamingo
-Hancock
-Whitebeard
-Marco
-Jozu
-Vista
-Ace
-Squardo
-Oars Jr.
-Kaidou
-Big Mom
-Bobbins
-Shanks
-Beckmann
-Lucky Roo
-Yasopp
-Blackbeard
-Shiliew
-Roger
-Rayleigh
-Scopper

GomuGomu_Getsuga
June 20, 2012, 02:46 PM
Akainu
Kizaru
Aokiji
Kaido
BlackBeard
Gol D. Roger
WhiteBeard
Dragon

I also believe Luffy can defeat any one of these opponents if he gets serious.

Curtarc
June 20, 2012, 06:47 PM
I don't think Luffy has reached the level of strength of the guys at the very top of the food chain. Characters like Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu, Whitebeard, Blackbeard, Dragon, Roger, etc still have the upper hand in terms of experience and raw power. However I think that's fine, it just gives a good margin of progress left for Luffy until he reaches that level. We are still far from the end of the manga, it would be strange if, at this point, Luffy was at the level of these monsters. I am pretty sure we can expect a couple more power upgrades as he travels around the New World.

SlayerKisame
June 26, 2012, 04:50 PM
I don't think Luffy has reached the level of strength of the guys at the very top of the food chain. Characters like Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu, Whitebeard, Blackbeard, Dragon, Roger, etc still have the upper hand in terms of experience and raw power. However I think that's fine, it just gives a good margin of progress left for Luffy until he reaches that level. We are still far from the end of the manga, it would be strange if, at this point, Luffy was at the level of these monsters. I am pretty sure we can expect a couple more power upgrades as he travels around the New World.I don't get how you could think that.

Alright, let's look at this from a third person perspective. Everyone was going about their duties during the timeskip. Sure, the pirates/marines may have gotten stronger, but nobody trained as hard as Luffy. He restrained himself to an island, got a PhD in all studies of haki, and now probably knows everything, literally everything about his DF. Keep in mind Luffy spent 2 full years in training. Why would he quit the training if he was not even strong enough to kill the guy who killed his brother?

Curtarc
June 26, 2012, 06:27 PM
I don't get how you could think that.

Alright, let's look at this from a third person perspective. Everyone was going about their duties during the timeskip. Sure, the pirates/marines may have gotten stronger, but nobody trained as hard as Luffy. He restrained himself to an island, got a PhD in all studies of haki, and now probably knows everything, literally everything about his DF. Keep in mind Luffy spent 2 full years in training. Why would he quit the training if he was not even strong enough to kill the guy who killed his brother?

It's a personal conviction really, there's no proof to back up my theory of Luffy not being at the level of the guys at the top of the food chain(since he hasn't fought anyone close to their level since he finished his training) but the same applies to the claim that he's already at their level. I believe we haven't seen everything he has learned from his training and I also believe he will learn something new along the way(mangas like these usually see their main characters evolving as time goes by) but as I said before, I can't prove what I am saying, it's just a feeling.

Dice
June 26, 2012, 07:52 PM
I don't get how you could think that.

Alright, let's look at this from a third person perspective. Everyone was going about their duties during the timeskip. Sure, the pirates/marines may have gotten stronger, but nobody trained as hard as Luffy. He restrained himself to an island, got a PhD in all studies of haki, and now probably knows everything, literally everything about his DF. Keep in mind Luffy spent 2 full years in training. Why would he quit the training if he was not even strong enough to kill the guy who killed his brother?



The training was merely to survive in the new world which none of them would have for a long time. I don't won't to say that he is a weak or something but I'd say he is not even close to defeat the likes of Akainu he will just not die almost instantly and might very well be able to put up a fight. Especially plot wise it wouldn't make that much sense if he is able to fight one of the top dogs of the marines. Hell Akainu might be even the strongest person of the marines.
I see the training just as a tool to close the gap he experienced in the war not to surpass everybody. The last progress to be strong enough to beat them will be gained through his journey.

Jirachier
July 02, 2012, 05:11 AM
Characters who are still stronger than Luffy: the admirals, the emperors, the emperors's lieutenants, garp, mihawk, rayleigh, marco, kong, sengoku, dragon.

I also do not think that the other supernovas are on par with Luffy, even before the timeskip Luffy was already stronger than all of them and the only reason why Kidd
had a slightly higher bounty than him was because he was hurting civilians, and while they were splitting their time between training and exploring the new world
luffy was focusing all of his attention on training so the obvious conclusion is that luffy is stronger than the supernovas by quite a margin, not that they are weak.
The same thing is valid for Smoker, he was only beating Luffy because the later was unable to land a hit on his logia body, but now not only did he gain the ability
to hit logia users he also improved his devil fruits powers and gained haki of observation, luffy is definitely stronger than Smoker.
Lucci and Luffy were almost on par before the timeskip but now it's clear that Luffy is much stronger than him, you can't except every person that luffy has fought
in the past to have the same growth rate as he does otherwise everyone will become admiral-level by the end of the serie
Ivankov is also not stronger than luffy, we've seen his fight with Magellan and he didn't really have more luck than luffy did, they were probably on the same level back then, now luffy is stronger.
Also the emperors are do not hold that title just because they have large territories and soldiers, it's also because they are exceedinly powerful, look at Shanks, Whitebeard, Blackbeard
you can't expect the soldiers, especially pirates to follow someone who is weaker than the are, and we all know that in OP massive numbers of fighters isn't what determines
the outcome of a battle, it's the strength of the top fighters, the strawhats vs the fishermen is a good example of how 10 people defeated an entire army and it wasn't that hard for them to do so,
and the argument that in the NW the pirates are stronger than the ones in the first part of the grand line isn't valid, we've all seen these pirates fight in the war of the best, besides their captains who were
probably each on par with a vice admiral(remember that before the timeskip luffy could defeat multiple vice admirals by himself) they weren't that strong, and i know that the pirates that were present
were only a few crews of all the ones in the NW but it was explicitly said that they were veterans of the NW, they still lost consciousness to Luffy's haki even before
he gained control over it so my guess is, in the NW there is more top tiers pirates but the foot soldiers level is still not high enough to pose a threat.

abc1233
July 02, 2012, 04:47 PM
Characters who are still stronger than Luffy: the admirals, the emperors, the emperors's lieutenants, garp, mihawk, rayleigh, marco, kong, sengoku, dragon.

I also do not think that the other supernovas are on par with Luffy, even before the timeskip Luffy was already stronger than all of them and the only reason why Kidd
had a slightly higher bounty than him was because he was hurting civilians, and while they were splitting their time between training and exploring the new world
luffy was focusing all of his attention on training so the obvious conclusion is that luffy is stronger than the supernovas by quite a margin, not that they are weak.
The same thing is valid for Smoker, he was only beating Luffy because the later was unable to land a hit on his logia body, but now not only did he gain the ability
to hit logia users he also improved his devil fruits powers and gained haki of observation, luffy is definitely stronger than Smoker.
Lucci and Luffy were almost on par before the timeskip but now it's clear that Luffy is much stronger than him, you can't except every person that luffy has fought
in the past to have the same growth rate as he does otherwise everyone will become admiral-level by the end of the serie
Ivankov is also not stronger than luffy, we've seen his fight with Magellan and he didn't really have more luck than luffy did, they were probably on the same level back then, now luffy is stronger.
Also the emperors are do not hold that title just because they have large territories and soldiers, it's also because they are exceedinly powerful, look at Shanks, Whitebeard, Blackbeard
you can't expect the soldiers, especially pirates to follow someone who is weaker than the are, and we all know that in OP massive numbers of fighters isn't what determines
the outcome of a battle, it's the strength of the top fighters, the strawhats vs the fishermen is a good example of how 10 people defeated an entire army and it wasn't that hard for them to do so,
and the argument that in the NW the pirates are stronger than the ones in the first part of the grand line isn't valid, we've all seen these pirates fight in the war of the best, besides their captains who were
probably each on par with a vice admiral(remember that before the timeskip luffy could defeat multiple vice admirals by himself) they weren't that strong, and i know that the pirates that were present
were only a few crews of all the ones in the NW but it was explicitly said that they were veterans of the NW, they still lost consciousness to Luffy's haki even before
he gained control over it so my guess is, in the NW there is more top tiers pirates but the foot soldiers level is still not high enough to pose a threat.
It was so difficult reading your post lol

Firstly, I'd have to disagree with you on Iva. This is a person who is very highly ranked in the RA and is someone who could fight on par with a pacifista-enhanced Kuma. The more solid proof of him not being on the same level as Luffy is that he beat Sanji without breaking a sweat, can you honestly say that Luffy can do the same?

Also, when did Luffy beat multiple vice-admirals on his own? I can't remember such a thing occuring



The training was merely to survive in the new world which none of them would have for a long time. I don't won't to say that he is a weak or something but I'd say he is not even close to defeat the likes of Akainu he will just not die almost instantly and might very well be able to put up a fight. Especially plot wise it wouldn't make that much sense if he is able to fight one of the top dogs of the marines. Hell Akainu might be even the strongest person of the marines.
I see the training just as a tool to close the gap he experienced in the war not to surpass everybody. The last progress to be strong enough to beat them will be gained through his journey.

Right now you can't exactly back up that statement. We haven't seen Luffy pushed to his limits yet since the TS, nor have we seen him take on someone of Akainu's level. For all we know, he may not be that far off, he is expected to beat BM by the end of this saga anyway but who knows? It's Oda after all...

Jirachier
July 03, 2012, 06:42 AM
The 5 vice admirals of the Enies Lobbis arc weren't even able to capture Luffy that should be proof enough that he is already stronger than any vice admiral.
As for Iva Sanji is very strong but he's nowhere near Luffy strength and now after the timeskip both of are much stronger, I don't see Iva being stronger than they are.

kkck
July 03, 2012, 04:01 PM
^I don't think that is necessarily the case. The VAs at ennies lobby where there solely for the buster call. At no point they ever tried to get involved and most of them probably wouldn't have been able too. The odds of a VA actually being stronger than luffy are small IMO however I do think a few of them should be roughly even.

As for people currently stronger than luffy I would go for these guys:

- All three admirals
- Maybe a few VAs. Smoker should be close to a match to luffy and I do doubt smoker is the strongest of them considering his age.
- Marco, jozu and vista (I rate this guys at roughly the admiral level)
- Mihawk (match for shanks and the admirals IMO)
- Shanks
- garp
- the yonko. I guess there is the possibility that currently at least one of the yonko is actually at about luffy's level although the odds of that are slim
- A few of the commanders should be about as strong as luffy
- jinbe is equal to luffy
- Iva is a bit of a wildcard IMO however it wouldn't be strange to me if he was on the level or stronger than luffy. The guy actually kicked kuma's but a bit in a strictly non sexual way.
- Kuma should be stronger than luffy
- Hancock should be stronger than luffy IMO
- There should be several crews in the NW with captains as strong and perhaps stronger than luffy.

hoeru
July 03, 2012, 07:04 PM
Since we've been talking about mainly pre-time skip characters: I think Vergo is also stronger than Luffy - unless his powers can't bring down Luffy because "he's a rubber man". :/

Jirachier
July 04, 2012, 08:51 AM
I think we shouldn't speculate on Vergo's strength for now until we know for sure how he brought down Law to his knees.
Smoker is in no way close to luffy's strength, we've seen how he didn't last long against Law, and when you remember that Luffy is the strongest of the eleven supernovas.
Jinbei is pretty strong but I don't think he is stronger than Luffy, currently I think luffy is as powerful as Ace was before dying and yes we saw Ace fighting Jinbei and they were a match to each other but that was years ago, Ace was still young and he became a lot stronger than that, so no Jinbei is weaker.
Kuma isn't stronger than Luffy especially after seeing how Luffy OHKO'd a pacisifta, yes Kuma must be the strongest of the pacisifta but still.
And I don't think a single vice-admiral is stronger than Luffy, and for Vergo who's current strength is unknown you need to remember that he is a pirate who infiltrated the marines so even if he's very powerful it doesn't mean the other vice admirals are near his level.

abc1233
July 05, 2012, 12:49 PM
I think we shouldn't speculate on Vergo's strength for now until we know for sure how he brought down Law to his knees.
Smoker is in no way close to luffy's strength, we've seen how he didn't last long against Law, and when you remember that Luffy is the strongest of the eleven supernovas.
Jinbei is pretty strong but I don't think he is stronger than Luffy, currently I think luffy is as powerful as Ace was before dying and yes we saw Ace fighting Jinbei and they were a match to each other but that was years ago, Ace was still young and he became a lot stronger than that, so no Jinbei is weaker.
Kuma isn't stronger than Luffy especially after seeing how Luffy OHKO'd a pacisifta, yes Kuma must be the strongest of the pacisifta but still.
And I don't think a single vice-admiral is stronger than Luffy, and for Vergo who's current strength is unknown you need to remember that he is a pirate who infiltrated the marines so even if he's very powerful it doesn't mean the other vice admirals are near his level.

Kuma isn't stronger? He's probably got one of the most powerful DFs out there, he is in a completely different league to the other pacifistas so the fact that Luffy OHKO'd a pacifista isn't saying much, Kuma pretty much did that pre-TS.


How can you say that all the VAs are weaker than Luffy? We've only got a rough idea of Smoker's strength, the others are pretty much unknown. All we know is that they all have haki and most likely have much more experience with haki than Luffy.


The 5 vice admirals of the Enies Lobbis arc weren't even able to capture Luffy that should be proof enough that he is already stronger than any vice admiral.
As for Iva Sanji is very strong but he's nowhere near Luffy strength and now after the timeskip both of are much stronger, I don't see Iva being stronger than they are.

The buster call is really a poor example, they weren't exactly fighting Luffy properly and it's just ridiculous to think that pre-TS Luffy could take on 5 experienced haki users who are just below admiral level.

Sanji is obviously weaker than Luffy, but could Luffy have taken him out without breaking a sweat like Iva did? I very much doubt it.



^I don't think that is necessarily the case. The VAs at ennies lobby where there solely for the buster call. At no point they ever tried to get involved and most of them probably wouldn't have been able too. The odds of a VA actually being stronger than luffy are small IMO however I do think a few of them should be roughly even.

As for people currently stronger than luffy I would go for these guys:

- All three admirals
- Maybe a few VAs. Smoker should be close to a match to luffy and I do doubt smoker is the strongest of them considering his age.
- Marco, jozu and vista (I rate this guys at roughly the admiral level)
- Mihawk (match for shanks and the admirals IMO)
- Shanks
- garp
- the yonko. I guess there is the possibility that currently at least one of the yonko is actually at about luffy's level although the odds of that are slim
- A few of the commanders should be about as strong as luffy
- jinbe is equal to luffy
- Iva is a bit of a wildcard IMO however it wouldn't be strange to me if he was on the level or stronger than luffy. The guy actually kicked kuma's but a bit in a strictly non sexual way.
- Kuma should be stronger than luffy
- Hancock should be stronger than luffy IMO
- There should be several crews in the NW with captains as strong and perhaps stronger than luffy.

I wouldn't say that Hancock is stronger. Pre-TS she didn't do anything of note which post-TS Luffy can't do equally or better

TitaniumOxide
July 10, 2012, 06:03 AM
@Abc1233 Hancock pre timeskip was able to kick the hell out of a pacifista without effort And her legs didn't even go dark to show she was using any haki although Oda might have omitted that because back then he didn't put much emphasis on using CoA as much as he did now in terms of color scheme especially when Shanks's sword didn't go dark yet it saved Coby from Akainu.

Anyways off the top of my head I say...

Equals:
Law
Kidd
Jimbe
(Almost Zoro)
Magellan
Hancock
Some Vice Admirals
Smoker

Stronger:
Admirals
Some Vice Admirals
Doflamingo
Mihawk
Emperors
Marco and the rest of his commander colleagues
Sengoku
Garp

The reason why I said some VMs for both spots is because there has never been a mention of VMs having to be on the same level. Maybe the VMs during the Enies Lobby arc were fodder but perhaps others are more capable. Smoker lost to Law because it seems like he didn't know of the extent of Law's powers because Smoker isn't stupid. If he knew of Law's full power I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten in such a situation where Law can rip his heart out in that particular way. I'm not kissing his ass but I think until we see Smoker truly fight a big time antagonist/Luffy, we shouldn't underestimate him and give him a second chance after losing to Law like that.

abc1233
July 10, 2012, 11:42 AM
@Abc1233 Hancock pre timeskip was able to kick the hell out of a pacifista without effort And her legs didn't even go dark to show she was using any haki although Oda might have omitted that because back then he didn't put much emphasis on using CoA as much as he did now in terms of color scheme especially when Shanks's sword didn't go dark yet it saved Coby from Akainu.

Anyways off the top of my head I say...

Equals:
Law
Kidd
Jimbe
(Almost Zoro)
Magellan
Hancock
Some Vice Admirals
Smoker

Stronger:
Admirals
Some Vice Admirals
Doflamingo
Mihawk
Emperors
Marco and the rest of his commander colleagues
Sengoku
Garp

The reason why I said some VMs for both spots is because there has never been a mention of VMs having to be on the same level. Maybe the VMs during the Enies Lobby arc were fodder but perhaps others are more capable. Smoker lost to Law because it seems like he didn't know of the extent of Law's powers because Smoker isn't stupid. If he knew of Law's full power I'm sure he wouldn't have gotten in such a situation where Law can rip his heart out in that particular way. I'm not kissing his ass but I think until we see Smoker truly fight a big time antagonist/Luffy, we shouldn't underestimate him and give him a second chance after losing to Law like that.

Well as you said, Oda didn't make CoA usage that obvious before. Vista and Marco used CoA on Akainu, Shanks too but there was nothing to suggest that they had done so other than being able to touch logias/others commenting on it. So we can't say if she did or not, even if she didn't, it's still not a feat which is beyond Luffy's capabilities. Sanji pretty much achieved the same thing and we can all agree that Luffy can hit harder than Sanji.

Also, I'd have to disagree on Law/Kidd being Luffy's equals. They were equal/slightly below Luffy before the TS in which Luffy focused purely on getting stronger with the PK's first mate. I highly doubt Law/Kidd grew to the same extent as Luffy during the TS. If they had then there wouldn't have been any point in Luffy wasting 2 years training when he could have just gone into the NW and levelled up to the same extent.

Kaiten
July 10, 2012, 08:37 PM
All of the Kujo Pirates can use armament haki, confirmed by Rayliegh (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/14). Hancock is also a confirmed (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v53/c519/20.html) wielder of conqueror's haki.

fcToho
July 11, 2012, 01:28 PM
Also, I'd have to disagree on Law/Kidd being Luffy's equals. They were equal/slightly below Luffy before the TS in which Luffy focused purely on getting stronger with the PK's first mate. I highly doubt Law/Kidd grew to the same extent as Luffy during the TS. If they had then there wouldn't have been any point in Luffy wasting 2 years training when he could have just gone into the NW and levelled up to the same extent.
But I think this is exactly the case. I find it kind of stupid too, but imo Luffy, Kid, Law are supposed to be still on the same level. Heck.. I can even believe Kidd is stronger at the moment.

Ourum
July 13, 2012, 06:02 PM
Stronger
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Dracule Mihawk
Donquixote Doflamingo
Big Mom (Charlotte Linlin)
Kaidou
Shanks
Blackbeard
Bartholomew Kuma
Rayleigh Silvers

Equal
Eustass Kidd
Trafalgar Law
Rob Lucci (maybe)
Crocodile (maybe)
X Drake
Basil Hawkins

Weaker
Magellan (haki turns the battle right around)
Sengoku
Garp
Smoker
Coby
Mr. 1
all other important characters


Weakest
Buggy


all just my own speculation, and none of them are in order of strength

jaymizzo
July 13, 2012, 06:25 PM
Stronger
Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Dracule Mihawk
Donquixote Doflamingo
Big Mom (Charlotte Linlin)
Kaidou
Shanks
Blackbeard
Bartholomew Kuma
Rayleigh Silvers

Equal
Eustass Kidd
Trafalgar Law
Rob Lucci (maybe)
Crocodile (maybe)
X Drake
Basil Hawkins

Weaker
Magellan (haki turns the battle right around)
Sengoku
Garp
Smoker
Coby
Mr. 1
all other important characters


Weakest
Buggy


all just my own speculation, and none of them are in order of strength

I know its your speculation and all but how can you think Garp and Sengoku are weaker than Luffy?

FaustXIII
March 10, 2013, 04:54 AM
Eneru, Kong, Kaidou, is stronger than Luffy

suraj5898
March 11, 2013, 05:31 AM
i think Kidd , Law , Kuma , Crocodile , Hancock and Jimbe r equal to luffy if not stronger.

1+ admirals (Akainu + all other admirals) , Aokiji , Shanks , Big Mom , Kaidou , Blackbeard , Rayleigh , Mihawk , kong , gorosei (i dont think they r just for show) and dragon r stronger than LuffY

MiyamotoMusashi
March 11, 2013, 07:01 AM
This estimation is a huge generalization and ignores individual match ups like Luffy vs Enel for example, it is obvious that there are exceptions but this is how i see it right now:

Vice Admirals = Crocodile pre-TS, Jinbe(on land), Zoro, Sanji < Kidd, Law, Kuma (mindless), Luffy, Ace < Vice Captains and commanders of Yonkou (Marco, Jozu) < Doflamingo, Hancock < Mihawk = Admirals, Garp, Rayleigh =/< Yonkou

Explanation:
Vice Admirals´fighting style has been shown to consist of this: Rokushiki + Haki + either a weapon or a DF (Onigumo has both). Of course they belong to the strongest fighters in the OP world but it still is way inferior to the real big players. I think Sanji and Zoro are pretty much on their level now, nothing that the VAs have shown exceeds the feats both Zoro and Sanji have shown. Some people might say that this estimation overestimates the SHs (including Luffy) but looking at the opponents they are soon going to face, i think it is appropriate. Crocodile pre-TS has one of the deadliest fruits we have seen, his Logia gives him an advantage in movement and in variety of his attacks but what he lacks is Haki and advanced physical abilities. Jinbe is pretty much the opposite, being a strong physical fighter but without a deadly ability.
Of course there are weaker and stronger characters in this level while the lines between the levels are also not absolute, especially considering that there are no real tiers in OP because of the variety of different abilities but this is just a simplification and generalization.

Next level is a bit stronger than the one before. Law has one of the strongest abilities in OP, he almost becomes god in his room but what he definitely lacks is physical abilities, meaning strength, speed and endurance which also reveals his biggest weakness, namely melee. Smoker, though being weaker than Law overall, was able to corner Law for a certain amount of time and even almost got him. Kuma also has one of the strongest abilities in OP, is very fast and physically strong (probably) but since his transformation, he lacks two things, namely intelligence and endurance. The former should be clear, the latter is because of him being a Pacifista, either you are strong enough to break or cut the the exterior of a Pacisfista or not. Kidd is on this level solely because of his portrayal as rival of Law and Luffy. Luffy has impressive physical abilities (speed, strength and endurance), is one of the few who has all 3 types of Haki, even if its not advanced enough yet, has immense destructive power (Noah, Kraken) and since the timeskip, a deadly attack, namely Red Hawk. These points already make him very strong while still giving him room to grow.

Next "level" is the vice captains and strongest commanders of a Yonkou. They are capable to fight Admirals for a longer time, have strong and unusual abilities, impressive physical skills and a high level of Haki. From what we have seen (could obviously change with the other commanders) is that they lack deadly abilities. Marco purely fights on a physical basis while Jozu turns into diamond and still has to punch the opponent.

Next level is extremely close to the admirals but not completely equal, they are capable of beating the admirals under certain circumstances though. Both Hancock and Doflamingo have all 3 types of Haki, have shown impressive physical feats and most importantly, both have extremely deadly abilities that are also extremely hard to defend against. Hancock is generally underestimated and underrated, probably because she has not been portrayed and hyped as a villain and antagonist.

Next level is the strongest one where the biggest players play. Mihawk´s estimation is pretty much only based on the symbolism, namely him being the rival of Shanks while the latter was able to clash with WB. Admirals were able to clash with WB, Rayleigh was able to clash with Kizaru, Garp is a legend and the only one who could fight WB and Roger equally in their respective prime, the Yonkou were in a stalemate.

Wha
March 11, 2013, 07:27 AM
I think Kidd and Law are at the moment on a levl with Luffy. Crocodile? His ace was his logia ability. Luffy no longer needs water to touch croc. He developed gear 2, which greatly increased his speed. He developed haki and fought against monsters stronger than him (500 or more....) http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-10/one-piece/chapter-597.html

hancock is a hard one. Her ability is damn strong, but isn't working on luffy. It wasn't working on that vice admiral because he stabbed himself. I don't know what else might work against her DF. Sure, she has got the Conquerors Haki and was able to hit a logia while he was trangile (smoker), but right now i don't see her even close to luffy.

Jimbey might be close. But it's hard to predict and as some people stated before, if person a beats person b and person b wins against person c, it's not sure if a would beat c.

By example: Enel. I think he is one of the strongest characters introduced so far. Luffy was mostly immune against him. Yet he nearly lost. Zoro, who is the closest to Luffy (in my opinion), didn't stand a chance against him. He can use haki (at least observation) and has got an incredible strong ability. I don't think that any char so far (yeah, even the admirals and the yonkous) would have an easy job taking him down. Yet Luffy won before he even developped gear 2 and 3.
Or think of the battle against mister 3 - he is inferior in strength, yet he managed to capture Zoro.

so if you ask another question, let's say who would beat or could beat Luffy in my opinion at the moment: Kidd, Law, Dofla, appou (with his sound waves), CC (he beated Luffy in their first fight), the admirals, aikanu, aokiji, maybe the unknown shichibukai, Dragon, the yonkous, or some weak guy like foxy....luffy defeated stronger guys in the past - and was nearly beaten by weaker ones.

ukimix
March 11, 2013, 08:02 AM
This estimation is a huge generalization and ignores individual match ups like Luffy vs Enel for example, it is obvious that there are exceptions but this is how i see it right now:

Vice Admirals = Crocodile pre-TS, Jinbe(on land), Zoro, Sanji < Kidd, Law, Kuma (mindless), Luffy, Ace < Vice Captains and commanders of Yonkou (Marco, Jozu) < Doflamingo, Hancock < Mihawk = Admirals, Garp, Rayleigh =/< Yonkou

Explanation:
Vice Admirals´fighting style has been shown to consist of this: Rokushiki + Haki + either a weapon or a DF (Onigumo has both). Of course they belong to the strongest fighters in the OP world but it still is way inferior to the real big players. I think Sanji and Zoro are pretty much on their level now, nothing that the VAs have shown exceeds the feats both Zoro and Sanji have shown. Some people might say that this estimation overestimates the SHs (including Luffy) but looking at the opponents they are soon going to face, i think it is appropriate. Crocodile pre-TS has one of the deadliest fruits we have seen, his Logia gives him an advantage in movement and in variety of his attacks but what he lacks is Haki and advanced physical abilities. Jinbe is pretty much the opposite, being a strong physical fighter but without a deadly ability.
Of course there are weaker and stronger characters in this level while the lines between the levels are also not absolute, especially considering that there are no real tiers in OP because of the variety of different abilities but this is just a simplification and generalization.

Next level is a bit stronger than the one before. Law has one of the strongest abilities in OP, he almost becomes god in his room but what he definitely lacks is physical abilities, meaning strength, speed and endurance which also reveals his biggest weakness, namely melee. Smoker, though being weaker than Law overall, was able to corner Law for a certain amount of time and even almost got him. Kuma also has one of the strongest abilities in OP, is very fast and physically strong (probably) but since his transformation, he lacks two things, namely intelligence and endurance. The former should be clear, the latter is because of him being a Pacifista, either you are strong enough to break or cut the the exterior of a Pacisfista or not. Kidd is on this level solely because of his portrayal as rival of Law and Luffy. Luffy has impressive physical abilities (speed, strength and endurance), is one of the few who has all 3 types of Haki, even if its not advanced enough yet, has immense destructive power (Noah, Kraken) and since the timeskip, a deadly attack, namely Red Hawk. These points already make him very strong while still giving him room to grow.

Next "level" is the vice captains and strongest commanders of a Yonkou. They are capable to fight Admirals for a longer time, have strong and unusual abilities, impressive physical skills and a high level of Haki. From what we have seen (could obviously change with the other commanders) is that they lack deadly abilities. Marco purely fights on a physical basis while Jozu turns into diamond and still has to punch the opponent.

Next level is extremely close to the admirals but not completely equal, they are capable of beating the admirals under certain circumstances though. Both Hancock and Doflamingo have all 3 types of Haki, have shown impressive physical feats and most importantly, both have extremely deadly abilities that are also extremely hard to defend against. Hancock is generally underestimated and underrated, probably because she has not been portrayed and hyped as a villain and antagonist.

Next level is the strongest one where the biggest players play. Mihawk´s estimation is pretty much only based on the symbolism, namely him being the rival of Shanks while the latter was able to clash with WB. Admirals were able to clash with WB, Rayleigh was able to clash with Kizaru, Garp is a legend and the only one who could fight WB and Roger equally in their respective prime, the Yonkou were in a stalemate.

It's curious, I will rank Zoro a level up in your classification, and Luffy almost at the level of Doflamingo if not in that level.

Kidd's fruit always has seemed to me a weak one. Only indication about him, in terms of power is his bounty, which is not a good one. But Oda has plans for him, so he should be strong for sure.

Not sure about Hancock. She is superior to Smoker and to Viceadmirals (Momonga), and easily beats the pacifistas pre time skip. But, beyond that level, we don't have enough evidence to know where she is; so she could be understimated as well as overestimated in that part of the ranking.

What about the Pirate King level over the yonkou?

MiyamotoMusashi
March 11, 2013, 08:32 AM
It's curious, I will rank Zoro a level up in your classification, and Luffy almost at the level of Doflamingo if not in that level.

Kidd's fruit always has seemed to me a weak one. Only indication about him, in terms of power is his bounty, which is not a good one. But Oda has plans for him, so he should be strong for sure.

Not sure about Hancock. She is superior to Smoker and to Viceadmirals (Momonga), and easily beats the pacifistas pre time skip. But, beyond that level, we don't have enough evidence to know where she is; so she could be understimated as well as overestimated in that part of the ranking.

What about the Pirate King level over the yonkou?

First, i should say that we have not seen most of the characters in my list fight a proper fight. My "estimation" is based on their abilities, their indicated and shown feats and of course symbolism or statements in the manga itself.
I think guys like Law, Luffy and Kuma still have an edge over Zoro but that is only my opinion. We have not seen the SHs in a proper fight like pre-TS yet.
Doflamingo was besides Hancock, Mihawk, the admirals (besides Akainu who fought WB) and Sengoku/Garp the only one in the war who was not hurt at all, despite taking on guys like Jozu, Crocodile or Atamos. He was toying with not only one but 2 VAs in Mariejoa, he fodderized Smoker who previously fought Law and Vergo equally, he has guys who should be or are almost as strong as Law (Vergo, the other seats) and his ability can control or even cut you without you realizing what´s going on. He, just like Hancock, just does not have this overwhelming and destructive power the admirals and WB have/had which is why he is almost on their level, but not completely.

I don´t disagree with Kidd´s fruit seeming weak pre-TS. It seemed like he heavily relies on the amount of metal that is around him, including the metal his opponents carry but like i said, the symbolism is important here. He has been introduced as the only rival besides Law from Luffy´s generation and his fruit has an immense potential. Just think about Magneto.

Hancock´s ability is extremely hard to defend against and is deadly upon impact. Forget about the Mero Mero Beam which probably would not work against high level characters but her slave arrows and her punching and kicking in general is always deadly, unless your CoA is strong enough. Just think about it. People have been pierced by Kizaru´s laser, frozen by Aokiji´s ice or burned by Akainu´s magma but they still came back (well, at least besides Ace) but there is no turning back from petrification. That + 3 types of Haki justifies her high level.

If you are referring to Roger, i think it is clear that Roger, WB, Rayleigh and probably Garp in their respective prime were all stronger than the strongest guys right now who would be the Yonkou and the admirals. If Luffy is supposed to surpass Roger, then i would not be surprised if BB, Akainu and Luffy will be stronger than the rest of the elite at teh end of the series.

ukimix
March 11, 2013, 09:03 AM
Hancock´s ability is extremely hard to defend against and is deadly upon impact. Forget about the Mero Mero Beam which probably would not work against high level characters but her slave arrows and her punching and kicking in general is always deadly, unless your CoA is strong enough. Just think about it. People have been pierced by Kizaru´s laser, frozen by Aokiji´s ice or burned by Akainu´s magma but they still came back (well, at least besides Ace) but there is no turning back from petrification. That + 3 types of Haki justifies her high level.

But, is Hancock petrification ability efective against all rivals, in despite of their df or haki or physical abilities? We don't know. As CoC, it has been probed only against fodders, nothing more. So, as evidence to rank here there, it's higly arguable, valid only as an opinion (a fallible but possibly correct estimation). She could be also at the level of vice captains in your rank or at the level of Mihawk. As estimations those have the same chances to be true.

MiyamotoMusashi
March 11, 2013, 09:14 AM
But, is Hancock petrification ability efective against all rivals, despite of their df or haki or physical abilities? We don't know. As CoC, it has been probed only against fodders, nothing more. So, as evidence to rank here there, it's higly arguable, valid only as an opinion (a fallible but possibly correct estimation).

Like i said before, you would need a high level of Haki to defend yourself against it. The only ones who actually defended themselves against DF products and attacks with Haki successfully are Shanks against Akainu, Rayleigh against Kizaru and the 3 admirals against WB´s shockwave and i guess Vergo against Law in the past. Other than that, we did not see someone using Haki to defend against DFs. Furthermore, her ability should work despite the df or physical abilities of her opponent because she can combine it with Haki. Her Mero Mero beam only works if you have lustful feelings towards her but every other attacks works without that, proven by her turning the cannon balls into stone and petrifying the Pacifista. Furthermore, every kick of her is deadly because the point of impact turns into stone. http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-555-page-5.html , http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-555-page-6.html .

Even if CoC only works against fodder, which is debatable considering the importance characters give it, it still is a part of the overall fighting ability of a character. Luffy had to fight 1000 marines in Enies Lobby before reaching Blueno and Lucci, now he could take out the entire island. The 100000 fishmen would have been much more dangerous without CoC and so forth. People are always degrade the importance of CoC by saying that it is only a "fodder attack" but i don´t see the problem in that, considering that with it you do not have to fear any number of fighters, you can basically take out entire countries.

ukimix
March 11, 2013, 09:24 AM
Those are not the only ones. We already saw Sentomaru vs Luffy (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v52/c511/13.html). So where would you put Sentomaru in the ranking?

I don't say CoC is efective only agains fodders. I hope it will reveal as a major power. I say CoC has been probed effective only agains fodders. That's cannon. And the same we could say of Hancock's petrification power.

MiyamotoMusashi
March 11, 2013, 09:32 AM
Those are not the only ones. We already saw Sentomaru vs Luffy (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v52/c511/13.html). So where would you put Sentomaru in the ranking?

I don't say CoC is efective only agains fodders. I hope it will reveal as a major power. I say CoC has been probed effective only agains fodders. That's cannon. And the same we could say of Hancock's petrification power.

Sentoumaru is hard, he seems to have a high level of Haki but nothing else.

Like i said, even if it works only against fodder (CoC), it still is a huge power and a part of a character´s overall strength.
The petrification power, meaning slave arrow and perfume femur, works just like any other DF attack from other character. Think about Vergo who was confident that his Haki would be enough against Law´s DF attack. Kizaru´s laser, Kuma´s DF for example also only worked against fodder until this point, or rather was only shown against fodder but nobody doubts their strength.
What fact is: Hancock´s Mero Mero Beam only works against people who lust after her, every other attack has no requirements besides hitting the opponent. We have only seen people with high level of Haki defend against DF attacks, other than that it always worked.

ukimix
March 11, 2013, 09:55 AM
Sentoumaru is hard, he seems to have a high level of Haki but nothing else.

Like i said, even if it works only against fodder (CoC), it still is a huge power and a part of a character´s overall strength.
The petrification power, meaning slave arrow and perfume femur, works just like any other DF attack from other character. Think about Vergo who was confident that his Haki would be enough against Law´s DF attack. Kizaru´s laser, Kuma´s DF for example also only worked against fodder until this point, or rather was only shown against fodder but nobody doubts their strength.
What fact is: Hancock´s Mero Mero Beam only works against people who lust after her, every other attack has no requirements besides hitting the opponent. We have only seen people with high level of Haki defend against DF attacks, other than that it always worked.

Yes. Sentomaru makes doubtful the idea that to be able to defend agains a df power with haki you have to be a high level fighter. Instead of that idea, it would be possible to say that in order to effectively be able to defend against a df power using haki, the difference in powers between the df fighter and the haki user has to be big enough. Put in the same ring the kid Luffy that just have eaten the gomu fruit (or even the Luffy from Romance Down times) and Tashigi from Punk Hazard times. Who do you think will win: the df power or the haki power? I would say, we can't be sure. But the fact that we can't be sure is evidence in favor of adopting that perspective.

Now that you mention it, is that the reason why Luffy didn't get affected by Hancock's power: because he didn't lust after her? Do you have a reference? It would be really funny thing. When we read FI arc, I was especulating that if Teach defeats Hancock and robs her fruit, we would have a severe tragedy in the manga, because it would be horrible if everyone there want to kiss such an ugly guy. But if the feeling of lust is a requisite, that wouldn't be a problem. Because who is going to lust after Teach? Also that would be the weak point of Hancock's ability.

MiyamotoMusashi
March 11, 2013, 10:04 AM
Yes. Sentomaru makes doubtful the idea that to be able to defend agains a df power with haki you have to be a high level fighter. Instead of that idea, it would be possible to say that in order to effectively be able to defend against a df power using haki, the difference in powers between the df fighter and the haki user has to be big enough. Put in the same ring the kid Luffy that just have eaten the gomu fruit (or even the Luffy from Romance Down times) and Tashigi from Punk Hazard times. Who do you think will win: the df power or the haki power? I would say, we can't be sure. But the fact that we can't be sure is evidence in favor of adopting that perspective.

Now that you mention it, is it that the reason why Luffy didn't get affected by Hancock's power? Because he didn't lust after her? Do you have a reference? It would be really funny thing. When we read FI arc, I was especulating that if Teach defeats Hancock and robs her fruit, we would have a severe tragedy in the manga, because it would be horrible if everyone there want to kiss such an ugly guy. But if the feeling of lust is a requisite, that wouldn't be a problem. Also that would be the weak point of Hancock's ability.

Sentoumaru can easily have a high level of Haki without being a high level fighter overall. He said that he has the best defense in the world which is doubtful of course but would still make sense considering that he is/was Vegapunk´s bodyguard and VP is very important to the WG.

Yes, Luffy had no lustful or impure thoughts about Hancock at all, that´s why her Mero Mero Beam did not work. Two panels http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-516-page-18.html , http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-518-page-6.html . Though i would not really call it a weakness. Mero Mero Beam is the only attack that requires the opponent having impure and lustful thoughts, every other attack works without that.
Lol, people lusting after BB.

KuroKarasu
May 18, 2013, 10:49 AM
I think some people overestimate luffy. Of course he has grown in those 2 years but I think there are still many unknown characters in the new world that are stronger than Luffy as well.

I personally think atleast Yonkou, Admirals, Dragon,Doflamingo, Kuma, Kong, maybe 1. commanders of Yonkou, Jack and some unknown guys are above him.

But some of them are at their maximum while Luffy keeps getting stronger and stronger. But if he was to challenge Doflamingo for example he would be beaten I guess. Luffy may be above Smoker for the first time - but Dofla DESTROYED smoker (granted he was weakened) and Luffy is not at that level yet.

0Xellos
May 18, 2013, 11:08 AM
I think some people overestimate luffy. Of course he has grown in those 2 years but I think there are still many unknown characters in the new world that are stronger than Luffy as well.

I personally think atleast Yonkou, Admirals, Dragon,Doflamingo, Kuma, Kong, maybe 1. commanders of Yonkou, Jack and some unknown guys are above him.

But some of them are at their maximum while Luffy keeps getting stronger and stronger. But if he was to challenge Doflamingo for example he would be beaten I guess. Luffy may be above Smoker for the first time - but Dofla DESTROYED smoker (granted he was weakened) and Luffy is not at that level yet.

Admirals, Yonkou, Dragon: most definitely. They're the top of the respective world powers. Still, I believe Luffy would at least be able to fight Dofla.
Luffy couldn't beat Smoker because he didn't have haki; right now, Luffy would pulverize Smoker with a barrage of haki-coated punches (as Vergo explained, Smoker going smoke makes it easy for those punches to connect). So using Smoker as comparison is not good :)
We could see a small repeat of Luffy vs Croc, just this time with the victory not based on Luffy exploiting Croc's natural weakness, but gradually getting stronger through multiple fights with Dofla, to the point when Dofla's finally beaten.

KuroKarasu
May 18, 2013, 11:48 AM
Admirals, Yonkou, Dragon: most definitely. They're the top of the respective world powers. Still, I believe Luffy would at least be able to fight Dofla.
Luffy couldn't beat Smoker because he didn't have haki; right now, Luffy would pulverize Smoker with a barrage of haki-coated punches (as Vergo explained, Smoker going smoke makes it easy for those punches to connect). So using Smoker as comparison is not good :)
We could see a small repeat of Luffy vs Croc, just this time with the victory not based on Luffy exploiting Croc's natural weakness, but gradually getting stronger through multiple fights with Dofla, to the point when Dofla's finally beaten.

I don't think Luffy would stomp Smoker just because of his Haki. Smoker is a strong fighter and knows how to use his devil fruit. He is fast aswell (he was strong even in Tashigis body). If Luffy was at Doflamingos Level I would be a bit disappointed though. I think Dofla and Mihawk are the known characters closest to the strenght of the Admiral/Yonkou.

Azuma
May 18, 2013, 12:55 PM
I think some people overestimate luffy. Of course he has grown in those 2 years but I think there are still many unknown characters in the new world that are stronger than Luffy as well.

I personally think atleast Yonkou, Admirals, Dragon,Doflamingo, Kuma, Kong, maybe 1. commanders of Yonkou, Jack and some unknown guys are above him.

But some of them are at their maximum while Luffy keeps getting stronger and stronger. But if he was to challenge Doflamingo for example he would be beaten I guess. Luffy may be above Smoker for the first time - but Dofla DESTROYED smoker (granted he was weakened) and Luffy is not at that level yet.

Who is Jack? I don't think Luffy would have too much trouble against Smoker, to be honest. Luffy should now be above him. As for Doflamingo stomping Smoker, it could also have been a match-up thing. Perhaps Dofla's DF is super effective against someone like Smoker. At the very least, Luffy's Haki puts him on par with people who would've destroyed him earlier in the series. Personally, I hope that there are people that are stronger than Luffy, otherwise it would become too boring. I don't think he can stand up to the top tier just yet, but probably will, soon.

Dofla was scared shitless by the prospect of Kaido coming after him. In other words, Dofla should be fodder to someone like Kaido. That says a lot about the Yonkou's strength.

danzouismadara
May 19, 2013, 03:43 AM
LAW, shanks, blackbeard, DD, Akainu, > Luffy.

Kidd, drake, kaido, big mam, apoo, kizaru, kuzan, shichibukai, fujitora= Luffy

Hawkins and other rookies< luffy.

KuroKarasu
May 19, 2013, 03:54 AM
LAW, shanks, blackbeard, DD, Akainu, > Luffy.

Kidd, drake, kaido, big mam, apoo, kizaru, kuzan, shichibukai, fujitora= Luffy

Hawkins and other rookies< luffy.

If 2 Yonkous and an Admiral were at Luffys level then this manga would be extremely boring now. He can't be anywhere near the Yonkou and Admiral strenght. (Ok, we don't know how strong Fujitora is but Kizaru and Aokiji are still stronger)

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 04:28 AM
LAW, shanks, blackbeard, DD, Akainu, > Luffy.

Kidd, drake, kaido, big mam, apoo, kizaru, kuzan, shichibukai, fujitora= Luffy

Hawkins and other rookies< luffy.

You are so far off it's not even funny. If Akainu were stronger than Kaido, then the Yonkou wouldn't be feared.

In terms of skills, Kuzan should be above Akainu. It took Akainu several days to overcome Kuzan, and he had a clear advantage because Akainu could melt the ice with ease. Had it not been for that decisive factor, I think Kuzan would've beaten Akainu.

For strange reasons, you've put Kid and Apoo above Hawkins. Why? We haven't seen anything that would imply that one is stronger than the other, except for bounties.

You've put Law as stronger than Kaido, yet Law is going through so much trouble to weaken Kaido and his Crew as well as team up with Luffy to actually stand a chance against him. Even then, Law has stated that there is a high chance that they would fail.

Clearly Kaido > Law.

Then, you've also put Doflamingo as stronger than Kaido. Yet when Doflamingo thought about the prospect of having Kaido come after him, he practically shat his pants. That shows that compared to Kaido, Doflamingo is practically nothing.

You've put Big Mom = Kid resp. Apoo, yet in order to stand a chance, Kid, Apoo and Hawkins have formed an alliance. Big Mom is thus much stronger than either of them.

I could go on and on but there's no need. Your list is nothing but flawed. It's probably only based on what characters you like.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------


If 2 Yonkous and an Admiral were at Luffys level then this manga would be extremely boring now. He can't be anywhere near the Yonkou and Admiral strenght. (Ok, we don't know how strong Fujitora is but Kizaru and Aokiji are still stronger) Based on what? Perhaps Fujitora is stronger and that's why they thought he would be sufficient to cover the NW by himself while the rest were off to fight WB.

KingOfNight
May 19, 2013, 04:44 AM
Based on what? Perhaps Fujitora is stronger and that's why they thought he would be sufficient to cover the NW by himself while the rest were off to fight WB.

He meant that Kizaru and Aokiji are still stronger than LUFFY. Also, Fujitora wasn't an Admiral at that time, since there was only three of them.

0Xellos
May 19, 2013, 04:50 AM
LAW, shanks, blackbeard, DD, Akainu, > Luffy.

Kidd, drake, kaido, big mam, apoo, kizaru, kuzan, shichibukai, fujitora= Luffy

Hawkins and other rookies< luffy.

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

I agree with Azuma on this. The list needs moving many chars from "=Luffy" upward and downward.

Tonix
May 19, 2013, 05:05 AM
LAW, shanks, blackbeard, DD, Akainu, > Luffy.

Kidd, drake, kaido, big mam, apoo, kizaru, kuzan, shichibukai, fujitora= Luffy

Hawkins and other rookies< luffy.
People have been giving this list a lot of criticism, and I do agree that it's pretty flawed, but my biggest problem is that, unless I'm mistaken, you have forgotten Mihawk. Or is he just lumped in with the rest of the Shichibukai?

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 05:39 AM
He meant that Kizaru and Aokiji are still stronger than LUFFY. Also, Fujitora wasn't an Admiral at that time, since there was only three of them.

Oh I see. Well I don't think we have a clear indication of where Fujitora lies in relation to Kuzan/Borsalino/Sakazuki. There might have been a number of reasons as to why he didn't take up the position of admiral, just like with Garp. It could also be that that he might have been stronger than either of the three, but Sengoku preferred someone who could see in the position of Admiral. Perhaps Sengoku just didn't like Fujitora and had him stationed in the NW etc etc.

Mihawk is probably the strongest Shichibukai. I believe him to be above Dofla, but I am not sure if he would be stronger than the unnamed one, depending on who it is obviously.

KuroKarasu
May 19, 2013, 08:00 AM
Oh I see. Well I don't think we have a clear indication of where Fujitora lies in relation to Kuzan/Borsalino/Sakazuki. There might have been a number of reasons as to why he didn't take up the position of admiral, just like with Garp. It could also be that that he might have been stronger than either of the three, but Sengoku preferred someone who could see in the position of Admiral. Perhaps Sengoku just didn't like Fujitora and had him stationed in the NW etc etc.

Mihawk is probably the strongest Shichibukai. I believe him to be above Dofla, but I am not sure if he would be stronger than the unnamed one, depending on who it is obviously.

Yeah, I don't know how strong Fujitora is at all. I expect him to be above Luffy too but you never know. I think Mihawk and Dofla are similar in strenght - Doflamingo has the king's haki and he could easily escape aokijis ice (which was strong enough to beat Jozu).

0Xellos
May 19, 2013, 08:17 AM
Well, Dofla was quite freaked out and decided not to fight Aokiji. The best he could do is hold his ground, but most likely wouldn't win. It's no shame, though - Aokiji is out of many people's league.

Airgrimes
May 19, 2013, 09:59 AM
I don't think detail is required.
Dragon, Kong, Garp, Sengoku, Yonkou, Admirals, Dofla, Mihawk, Hancock, Benn Beckmann, Shiliew, Marco, Jozu, Vista, > Luffy.
I wouldn't necessarily put Law in a tier above Luffy.
Kid, Luffy and Law were expressed as roughly in the same bracket outside of the slave selling show. Regardless of all the countless fandom that put Luffy and Law higher because Kid isn't as cool as them.

I'm interested in people like Vice Admirals Momonga, Onigumo and Dalmatian who appeared as seriously strong during the war.

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 11:20 AM
I don't think detail is required.
Dragon, Kong, Garp, Sengoku, Yonkou, Admirals, Dofla, Mihawk, Hancock, Benn Beckmann, Shiliew, Marco, Jozu, Vista, > Luffy.
I wouldn't necessarily put Law in a tier above Luffy.
Kid, Luffy and Law were expressed as roughly in the same bracket outside of the slave selling show. Regardless of all the countless fandom that put Luffy and Law higher because Kid isn't as cool as them.

I'm interested in people like Vice Admirals Momonga, Onigumo and Dalmatian who appeared as seriously strong during the war.

Benn Beckman is very interesting. He seemed to only use a gun, yet Kizaru felt compelled to 'surrender'. I assume he's at the very least a Haki master and that he imbues his bullets with a gun. There has to be more to him than that, given that Yasopp is the marksman. He also seems to have exceptional speed given how he managed to sneak up to Kizaru.

Shiliew is strong, but I wouldn't necessarily put him above Luffy. As for Kong, my guess is that he's the most powerful marine.

vagabond87
May 19, 2013, 12:35 PM
So I would say that Luffy is on level with Rayleight right now. Before bashing me just read few lines.
Rayleigh was seen fighting Kizaru for some time yet he was visibly getting tired as he was panting while Kizaru wasnt. So in long run if that fight continued as it was I do think that Kizaru might be able to capture Rayleigh or that Rogers right hand man would be able to escape with big problems.
So I would say that Rayleigh is slightly weaker than Admiral right now- almost on par with them yet between Marco/Jozu and Admirals.

I would put in that thin space strength of Doflamingo- so I am stating that Doflamingo and Rayleigh as he is now are pretty much equall in combat power.

Sooooo... Luffy will most probably be the one to beat Doflamingo imo, by battle like the one with Rob Lucci- getting really close to death yet winning and seeing another day after going all out on enemy. As for backing up my words I have to add that Rayleigh who is monster in One Piece uniwerse said to Luffy after 2 year time skip "Go straight to the top!" and for me this one line speaks volumes about what Luffy is now capable or will be soon enough. Ace while bein a little older than Luffy during Whitebeard war was able to fight quite well for a moment with Aokiji and he was seen to be bad match against Akainu- most probably Aces haki wasnt as good as Luffys one is at the moment, maybe he concentrated on training his Devil Fruit power more than Haki during his time as Whitebeards commander.

So stronger than Luffy are Admirals- not by much but still, Luffys father- Dragon and all of Emperors as it is for now, of course Mihawk..
Some of Emperors top underlings and some of not seen yet pirates from New World are on par with Luffy.
This is how Luffys strength/ combat power looks in my mind as it is for now.
I would really like if I can post my thoughts about other two people from monster trio but its not good place for it..

matzik1212
May 19, 2013, 02:07 PM
I think we will have a big surprise when we'll witness Luffy post timeskip fully unleashed . What we saw till now is nothing IMO , there's no way we saw everything that's why it's still too soon to say for sure we know who is stronger than him or who's weaker ...

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 02:17 PM
So I would say that Luffy is on level with Rayleight right now. Before bashing me just read few lines.
Rayleigh was seen fighting Kizaru for some time yet he was visibly getting tired as he was panting while Kizaru wasnt. So in long run if that fight continued as it was I do think that Kizaru might be able to capture Rayleigh or that Rogers right hand man would be able to escape with big problems.
So I would say that Rayleigh is slightly weaker than Admiral right now- almost on par with them yet between Marco/Jozu and Admirals.

I would put in that thin space strength of Doflamingo- so I am stating that Doflamingo and Rayleigh as he is now are pretty much equall in combat power.

Sooooo... Luffy will most probably be the one to beat Doflamingo imo, by battle like the one with Rob Lucci- getting really close to death yet winning and seeing another day after going all out on enemy. As for backing up my words I have to add that Rayleigh who is monster in One Piece uniwerse said to Luffy after 2 year time skip "Go straight to the top!" and for me this one line speaks volumes about what Luffy is now capable or will be soon enough. Ace while bein a little older than Luffy during Whitebeard war was able to fight quite well for a moment with Aokiji and he was seen to be bad match against Akainu- most probably Aces haki wasnt as good as Luffys one is at the moment, maybe he concentrated on training his Devil Fruit power more than Haki during his time as Whitebeards commander.

So stronger than Luffy are Admirals- not by much but still, Luffys father- Dragon and all of Emperors as it is for now, of course Mihawk..
Some of Emperors top underlings and some of not seen yet pirates from New World are on par with Luffy.
This is how Luffys strength/ combat power looks in my mind as it is for now.
I would really like if I can post my thoughts about other two people from monster trio but its not good place for it..

I disagree. I don't think that Rayleigh was actually panting. It seemed more like he was messing around with Kizaru. The fight must have continued off-panel where Rayleigh must have gotten away. Seeing as Kizaru stated that he can't simply let Rayleigh leave suggests that Rayleigh perhaps came out victorious, or at the very least easily got away from someone as strong and fast as Kizaru, which is a testament to his skill.

There's also the fact that it's been stated that Rayleigh would've knocked out all 100 000 soldiers in the Fishman Island. His Haki is thus at least twice as strong as Luffy's. Given that he was able to train Luffy in all aspects of Haki also suggests that he's mastered all four (including Conquerer's Haki). In response to Rayleigh being spotted in Sabondy, Sengoku said something like "we can only handle one legend at the time". That, to me, suggests that Rayleigh is actually closer to a Yonkou than an Admiral. At the very least, he implied that he would defeat Kizaru without much trouble in his prime.

danzouismadara
May 19, 2013, 02:47 PM
You are so far off it's not even funny. If Akainu were stronger than Kaido, then the Yonkou wouldn't be feared.

In terms of skills, Kuzan should be above Akainu. It took Akainu several days to overcome Kuzan, and he had a clear advantage because Akainu could melt the ice with ease. Had it not been for that decisive factor, I think Kuzan would've beaten Akainu.

For strange reasons, you've put Kid and Apoo above Hawkins. Why? We haven't seen anything that would imply that one is stronger than the other, except for bounties.

You've put Law as stronger than Kaido, yet Law is going through so much trouble to weaken Kaido and his Crew as well as team up with Luffy to actually stand a chance against him. Even then, Law has stated that there is a high chance that they would fail.

Clearly Kaido > Law.

Then, you've also put Doflamingo as stronger than Kaido. Yet when Doflamingo thought about the prospect of having Kaido come after him, he practically shat his pants. That shows that compared to Kaido, Doflamingo is practically nothing.

You've put Big Mom = Kid resp. Apoo, yet in order to stand a chance, Kid, Apoo and Hawkins have formed an alliance. Big Mom is thus much stronger than either of them.

I could go on and on but there's no need. Your list is nothing but flawed. It's probably only based on what characters you like.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Based on what? Perhaps Fujitora is stronger and that's why they thought he would be sufficient to cover the NW by himself while the rest were off to fight WB.

akainu almost killed whitebeard. killed ace. he was very close to killing luffy ,ivankov, jinbe all in like 5 mins lol and he fought with all of the whitebeard commanders at the same time who werent even able to scratch him.

vagabond87
May 19, 2013, 02:57 PM
I disagree. I don't think that Rayleigh was actually panting. It seemed more like he was messing around with Kizaru. The fight must have continued off-panel where Rayleigh must have gotten away. Seeing as Kizaru stated that he can't simply let Rayleigh leave suggests that Rayleigh perhaps came out victorious, or at the very least easily got away from someone as strong and fast as Kizaru, which is a testament to his skill.

There's also the fact that it's been stated that Rayleigh would've knocked out all 100 000 soldiers in the Fishman Island. His Haki is thus at least twice as strong as Luffy's. Given that he was able to train Luffy in all aspects of Haki also suggests that he's mastered all four (including Conquerer's Haki). In response to Rayleigh being spotted in Sabondy, Sengoku said something like "we can only handle one legend at the time". That, to me, suggests that Rayleigh is actually closer to a Yonkou than an Admiral. At the very least, he implied that he would defeat Kizaru without much trouble in his prime.

Sorry but I wont go easy on you:3c Dont be angry.

1. Rayleight was panting http://www.mangareader.net/103-2620-10/one-piece/chapter-513.html 20 years of not fighting regularly made him rusty.
2. Getting easily away from Admiral, especially Kizaru is not an option- if I was you I would cut out word "easily".
3. His haki might be twice as strong as Luffy but that doesnt mean that he is two times stronger than Luffy, he is old so he cant endure as much as Luffy when it comes to stamina etc
4. I know 3 types of haki(including CoC), what is 4th type of haki?
5. Not Sengoku said that but Garp.
6. In his prime he would most probably defeat Kizaru without going 100% at him. IN HIS PRIME he was closer to Emperor than anyone else. Now he is below Admiral. Old age fellow poster, old age. Oda puts emphasis on it on many occasions.

Luffy in league with current Rayleigh.

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 03:26 PM
akainu almost killed whitebeard. killed ace. he was very close to killing luffy ,ivankov, jinbe all in like 5 mins lol and he fought with all of the whitebeard commanders at the same time who werent even able to scratch him. Come on. We both saw that it was the other way around. Whitebeard almost killed Akainu.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------


Sorry but I wont go easy on you:3c Dont be angry.

1. Rayleight was panting http://www.mangareader.net/103-2620-10/one-piece/chapter-513.html 20 years of not fighting regularly made him rusty.
2. Getting easily away from Admiral, especially Kizaru is not an option- if I was you I would cut out word "easily".
3. His haki might be twice as strong as Luffy but that doesnt mean that he is two times stronger than Luffy, he is old so he cant endure as much as Luffy when it comes to stamina etc
4. I know 3 types of haki(including CoC), what is 4th type of haki?
5. Not Sengoku said that but Garp.
6. In his prime he would most probably defeat Kizaru without going 100% at him. IN HIS PRIME he was closer to Emperor than anyone else. Now he is below Admiral. Old age fellow poster, old age. Oda puts emphasis on it on many occasions.

Luffy in league with current Rayleigh.

My bad. At that point in the story, I was still watching the anime and not the manga. There, Rayleigh doesn't pant if memory serves me right. Regardless, I do think him getting away is a testament to his great skill given Borsalino's Logia. He also showed incredible speed in deflecting Kizaru's first attack, for the record. The 'four' Haki types was merely a typo, it's meant to say three.

Fair enough, Garo or Sengoku. The end-result is still the same. Because of his poor stamina, perhaps he is slightly below an admiral after all. I do think he's still stronger than Luffy, unless the fight goes on for an extended period of time and he tires.

I love Kizaru's style, for the record.

vagabond87
May 19, 2013, 03:39 PM
Come on. We both saw that it was the other way around. Whitebeard almost killed Akainu.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 PM ----------



My bad. At that point in the story, I was still watching the anime and not the manga. There, Rayleigh doesn't pant if memory serves me right. Regardless, I do think him getting away is a testament to his great skill given Borsalino's Logia. He also showed incredible speed in deflecting Kizaru's first attack, for the record. The 'four' Haki types was merely a typo, it's meant to say three.

Fair enough, Garo or Sengoku. The end-result is still the same. Because of his poor stamina, perhaps he is slightly below an admiral after all. I do think he's still stronger than Luffy, unless the fight goes on for an extended period of time and he tires.

I love Kizaru's style, for the record.

Glad you can agree. I had to point few things out just to clearly show that time did numbers on Rayilegh. He was monster close to Emperor but it was many years ago. I would put him and Doflamingo at same "level".
As for your love for Borsalino- prepare for some serious ass whooping done by Strawhats to light logia user :3c Zoro has a score to settle with Kizaru for almost killing him. I do think that 2 out of 3 people from Monster Trio would be just enough to defeat Kizaru.

Azuma
May 19, 2013, 04:39 PM
Glad you can agree. I had to point few things out just to clearly show that time did numbers on Rayilegh. He was monster close to Emperor but it was many years ago. I would put him and Doflamingo at same "level".
As for your love for Borsalino- prepare for some serious ass whooping done by Strawhats to light logia user :3c Zoro has a score to settle with Kizaru for almost killing him. I do think that 2 out of 3 people from Monster Trio would be just enough to defeat Kizaru. If only the OP Universe followed the laws of our universe.. Kizaru should be the strongest character to have ever lived. He is able to travel at the speed of light for gods sake! People should be permanently blinded just by looking at him, not to mention the ridiculous size of momentum behind each and every hit.

There are a number of characters I would love to see in their prime, including Garp and Rayleigh. I am sure (more like hoping) that we will eventually see a 'real' Roger flashback which involves them taking on the marines, including Garp. How fantastic wouldn't it be to see Garp, Roger and Rayleigh go all out.

Airgrimes
May 19, 2013, 06:03 PM
If only the OP Universe followed the laws of our universe.. Kizaru should be the strongest character to have ever lived. He is able to travel at the speed of light for gods sake! People should be permanently blinded just by looking at him, not to mention the ridiculous size of momentum behind each and every hit.
Scientifically speaking, The Speed of Light should enable you to jog from village to village and city to city since the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s
So if you can cover that amount in a second... and... Japan is 377,873,000,000 meters...
so dividing it by the latter is 1260.44865345
Average person walks between 3000 to 4000 steps per day... He can run up and down the whole of Japan more than twice in under 5 seconds.
But of course, OP Universe defies even scientific logic, which is just how I like it.

Yeah Kizaru makes no sense. He is fast enough to run along the water without sinking.

Ninja_Pirate
May 20, 2013, 06:47 AM
Glad you can agree. I had to point few things out just to clearly show that time did numbers on Rayilegh. He was monster close to Emperor but it was many years ago. I would put him and Doflamingo at same "level".
As for your love for Borsalino- prepare for some serious ass whooping done by Strawhats to light logia user :3c Zoro has a score to settle with Kizaru for almost killing him. I do think that 2 out of 3 people from Monster Trio would be just enough to defeat Kizaru.

Time is the strongest weapon no one can defeat ... So obviously time did numbers on rayleigh ... But not as much as it did on WB (he was ill… he was on medicine 24x7) … And if that old WB >>>current luffy then I must say even Rayleigh >>Current luffy ….

Even at Shabondy … here http://www.mangareader.net/103-2619-2/one-piece/chapter-512.html .. If we need to capture u here even we need to do some preparations… When they only had beaten SHs who could not do a thing … Even after all SHs disappeared ,,,, Rayleigh escaped in presence of not only Kizaru but a pacifista and Sentaoumaru/… So how come you are putting Rayleigh below admiral is out of my understanding at least … It doesn't even matter if he did it while panting or not .. When WB started panting in war … after that how much destruction he has done … Luffy started panting in very early stage of his fight with Lucci … Clearly Panting is something U can’t define as the person being weak… Panting generally happens when you don’t let your strength go down in your performance … Even when your stamina is low …

And for your reference of this page …http://www.mangareader.net/103-2620-10/one-piece/chapter-513.html …. Rayleigh is cursing his old age because while fighting Kizaru he can’t give hand to SHs … not that he is having trouble trolling Kizaru .. And that's y Kizaru said “you are embarrassing me” … lol … Kizaru was easily trolled by Rayleigh … One more of the reason for panting is .. Kizaru was fighting without any tension while Rayleigh had tension of SHs on his mind …

1. If it has been stated by Oda that Rayleigh’s conquerer’s haki is twice the strength of luffy’s conqueror haki (which is definitely a rare form of haki than CoO and CoA) … I would assume that Rayleigh’s CoO and CoA is also stronger than Luffy’s CoO and CoA…
2. He freaking swam across Calm belt killing a Sea king with his bare hand (would like to see someone doing that without using his DF) … and after that also he came out panting … Doesn’t mean Law and troop weren’t amazed …
3. Moreover if garp at his age can be a beast enough to kick marco’s ass so easily I bet so does Rayleigh ..

susanoo13
May 20, 2013, 07:11 AM
After the timeskip although it would be hard to measure Luffy's full power I'd still bet on him not needing more than one fight to take out DD since that is the power I'd expect from someone able to give a finishing blow to a Yonkou and who's trained with someone probably almost as strong as WB.

No disrespect to everything the worst generation has done in NW up till now but still I don't think it matches up to what at least 5 SHs did within the timeskip so I would say Luffy is stronger than any supernova and once Law will witness what Luffy is capable of he won't regret taking that loose cannon.

Now I would say that the admirals are stronger than luffy, Jozu, Marco and Vista are sronger than him and possibly the top 3 of and Yonkou right now which we still don't know, in BB's crew I would guess he, Shiryu and another level 6 prisoner although they all strike me as not fast enough but that's just by their design.

KingOfNight
May 20, 2013, 09:57 AM
If only the OP Universe followed the laws of our universe.. Kizaru should be the strongest character to have ever lived. He is able to travel at the speed of light for gods sake! People should be permanently blinded just by looking at him, not to mention the ridiculous size of momentum behind each and every hit.

Shouldn't Marco be the strongest ? Dude's immortal...or so he was said to be...

Sproumfch
May 20, 2013, 10:04 AM
At first, measuring Luffy's strengh was very complicated because of the level of his angryness. Secondly because now we don't know his powers.
We only know that :
-before time skip he has an endless lifeforce, and started to use well his fruit
-he trained with the most powerfull known man's second hand (Rayleigh, even old he still rocks) during one year and a half. then he trained alone 6 months
-he mastered his fruit with a lot of new skills (the flying legs, runin'fire, Red Hawk, Elephant Gatling, Grizzly Magnum, Snake Shot and I hope more) and learned Haki
-he fought very strong beasts during 2 years, so improoved his strenght
-he has a fruit that allows him to strenghten a punch (it's his strenght + the stretching effect) and make it stronger than a "normal" punch
-before time skip a lot of people during the Marineford Arc praised him, his strenght and the threat he could be in the future

So. When he leaves Rayleight, him tells "Straight head to the top". Well, Luffy is reallllly strong.
Let's say at the end of the manga, he will be at 100%.
In the beginning he was 0%. I'd say at Marineford he is 40%. And now he is 80. I strongly believe that the training is an important Key in the history.

I think everybody remembers Luffy saying "What's wrong with me. I couldn't even save a single nakama" ( http://www.mangareader.net/103-2620-17/one-piece/chapter-513.html ) and the pain following when he realizes he wasn't strong enough for the NW. He heard about that and saw the strenght of the Admirals, a Yonkou, the Shishibukai, etc.
And now he's quite relaxed and chill. He knows he is now strong enough to face the powers of the world.
Yes, he stills have to master Haki at a Vergo-like level.
But Luffy IS the man who will be the strongest. Cause he has to. And where is the point of writting the story if he doesn't makes it????
Maybe some of the Yonkous are stronger than him. But certainly not DD. Luffy may be hurt by his strings, but in terms of pure power, stamina, speed, Luffy is above him. The problem with DD may be Haki. But... http://www.mangareader.net/103-2627-7/one-piece/chapter-520.html and the next page. It shows us that pure strenght can be usefull against Haki (not too strong haki imo). But know Luffy has Haki. His punches are the next Pirate King's punches. STRRRRONG ONES :P
I think that we will see Luffy bleed and have bad times in Arcs like Kaidou, BB, and the lasts.

IMO (today) : Shanks > Akainu/Kuzan > rest of Emperors / Admirals / Mihawk / Dragon = or > Luffy/DD/Kuma > Zoro/the Supernovas...
Luffy is close to the top, but he still have to master Haki and get some new technics (as Red Hawk gatling :D).
Zoro is here because... well it's Zoro. He know can can anything he wants since he can use Haki. I think that's not for nothing that Oda made the Chapter "Wild Beast" and all that's in it. Zoro is just below the captain, as it has always been.

BTW this is only my point of view. I don't think I'm overestimating Luffy, since he is now in the NW and got a special train.
And i think in the nexts few months we will know the Mugi's strenght, especially Luffy's : he's got to win over half of DD crew, BB's second and other strong people.

REN KOUEN
May 20, 2013, 10:20 AM
its hard to say right now, but if i had to guess
maybe the yonko especially black beard

and thats probably it

mihawk would be a bad matchup for luffy, but i think he could take the rest of the schibukai

kkck
May 20, 2013, 10:28 AM
I don't think any of the rookies will turn out to be stronger than luffy. IMO what would make the most sense is that they are at most equal with luffy. It didn't seem like any of them was actuallys stronger than luffy 2 years and if luffy spent 2 years solely training and doing nothing else with the help of Rayleigh it makes sense he would have grown stronger than the rest. Even if luffy is even with the other supernova it would still make more sense for him to at least be superior in terms of haki considering the training.

As far as the shichibukai go, I would think luffy is not so hot against them. IMO he would still be inferior to hancock, mihawk and doflamingo. With kuma I would argue luffy is even or weaker. One way or another things lean towards kuma. Buggy is obviously not an issue here. Luffy would be roughly even with jinbe. He would of course be superior to crocodile nowadays although being hit by his dehydrating blades would be just as dangerous as it was 2 years ago (although it is possible crocodile got stronger). Moria would definitely be weaker. BB would definitely be stronger, specially considering he should have mastered the quake fruit by now and he could have grown stronger himself. The sixth one is anyone's guess so far.

Luffy is definitely inferior to any of the previous generation of admirals. Dunno about the new ones though.

As far as the VAs go, I would think it depends on each case considering they are numerous. Luffy is at most even with the ones that were at the war IMO. The rest of them would give him trouble in a fight.

Beatrice
May 20, 2013, 10:41 AM
Who is Jack?

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/106/60-692.0/compressed/i011.jpg?v=11355361607


That's all we know just the name.
Though it may be someone involved with Dofla seeing as the whole Cards theme surrounds him.

Azuma
May 20, 2013, 10:59 AM
I don't think any of the rookies will turn out to be stronger than luffy. IMO what would make the most sense is that they are at most equal with luffy. It didn't seem like any of them was actuallys stronger than luffy 2 years and if luffy spent 2 years solely training and doing nothing else with the help of Rayleigh it makes sense he would have grown stronger than the rest. Even if luffy is even with the other supernova it would still make more sense for him to at least be superior in terms of haki considering the training.

As far as the shichibukai go, I would think luffy is not so hot against them. IMO he would still be inferior to hancock, mihawk and doflamingo. With kuma I would argue luffy is even or weaker. One way or another things lean towards kuma. Buggy is obviously not an issue here. Luffy would be roughly even with jinbe. He would of course be superior to crocodile nowadays although being hit by his dehydrating blades would be just as dangerous as it was 2 years ago (although it is possible crocodile got stronger). Moria would definitely be weaker. BB would definitely be stronger, specially considering he should have mastered the quake fruit by now and he could have grown stronger himself. The sixth one is anyone's guess so far.

Luffy is definitely inferior to any of the previous generation of admirals. Dunno about the new ones though.

As far as the VAs go, I would think it depends on each case considering they are numerous. Luffy is at most even with the ones that were at the war IMO. The rest of them would give him trouble in a fight.

Hancock? Really? She seems to be one of the weaker Shichibukai. I don't see how Luffy would be inferior to her gven that the only advantage she held over him was Haki.

Personally, I don't think there are any Vice Admirals capable of defeating Luffy, with a few exceptions such as Smoker and Vergo. Generally speaking, I agree that a few of them should be able to give him trouble, but he should be victorious in the end nonetheless. Otherwise, he's still far too weak to accomplish anything that he's set out to do.

It's interesting that there's both a Joker and a Jack. To me, these seem to be clear references to the Batman villain. When I heard the name Joker for the first time, I suspected that it was going to be Dofla because of his similarities to 'the' Joker (such as the enormous smile). Seeing as Jack is another alias for Joker, my guess is that Jack is Dofla's partner. It could be Kaido, but more likely, I think it's another subordinate of Kaido. Perhaps he's the middle-man between Dofla and Kaido.

Impossibility
May 20, 2013, 11:53 AM
Personally, I don't think there are any Vice Admirals capable of defeating Luffy, with a few exceptions such as Smoker and Vergo. Generally speaking, I agree that a few of them should be able to give him trouble, but he should be victorious in the end nonetheless. Otherwise, he's still far too weak to accomplish anything that he's set out to do.

I'm not saying that the VAs are superior to Luffy, but how can you argue that Smoker is capable of defeating Luffy while the other VAs can't. Smoker is one of the newer VAs, what reason is there to believe that he is superior to the others of his rank. I'd be more likely to believe that Smoker is one of the weaker VAs, particularly after his showing against Vergo. If Smoker is a match for Luffy, the odds are Luffy would be defeated by quite a few VAs.

Airgrimes
May 20, 2013, 12:38 PM
Hancock? Really? She seems to be one of the weaker Shichibukai. I don't see how Luffy would be inferior to her gven that the only advantage she held over him was Haki.
This isn't so right. Hancock was unscratched throughout the entire war. She got stuck in against Pirates and against Marines for Luffy but she dispatched of Pacifistas effortlessly 2 years ago. No reason to assume she was only strong from Haki. She is genuinely good fighter.
You're underrating her. She can't be so weak since she wouldn't be so highly regarded for her strength since she is known for both her combat ability and beauty.



Personally, I don't think there are any Vice Admirals capable of defeating Luffy, with a few exceptions such as Smoker and Vergo. Generally speaking, I agree that a few of them should be able to give him trouble, but he should be victorious in the end nonetheless. Otherwise, he's still far too weak to accomplish anything that he's set out to do.

This is rather off. Dalmatian and Momonga outclassed Luffy 2 years ago effortlessly when they bumped into him in the war.
Onigumo's efficiency with his Spider Fruit in catching Marco should be noted. How effortless it was for Onigumo to cuff Marco by the wrist is something
Don't underestimate the VA's. They're still the real deal.

Smoker only just got promoted so there is nothing to suggest he is the strongest of the VA's after he was shut down by Vergo, another VA.
Smoker > Luffy? I dunno about that. It was ArmorHaki that was holding Luffy back previously.

I think Luffy can fight VA's without his life being in sheer danger like back in Part I.
I can totally see Luffy winning against VA's at this moment. Zoro against some too.

kkck
May 20, 2013, 12:48 PM
Hancock? Really? She seems to be one of the weaker Shichibukai. I don't see how Luffy would be inferior to her gven that the only advantage she held over him was Haki.

Personally, I don't think there are any Vice Admirals capable of defeating Luffy, with a few exceptions such as Smoker and Vergo. Generally speaking, I agree that a few of them should be able to give him trouble, but he should be victorious in the end nonetheless. Otherwise, he's still far too weak to accomplish anything that he's set out to do.

It's interesting that there's both a Joker and a Jack. To me, these seem to be clear references to the Batman villain. When I heard the name Joker for the first time, I suspected that it was going to be Dofla because of his similarities to 'the' Joker (such as the enormous smile). Seeing as Jack is another alias for Joker, my guess is that Jack is Dofla's partner. It could be Kaido, but more likely, I think it's another subordinate of Kaido. Perhaps he's the middle-man between Dofla and Kaido.

Well, sengoku was damn grateful (http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-523-page-11.html) hancock actually joined the war and acknowledged her strength. I don't think we have any reason to consider her weak even among the shichibukai.... She is a proficient haki user with the conqueror's haki and has a versatile fruit which even seems to sexually arouse people regardless of gender.... She is basically the non plus ultra of femme fatales... most feme fatales kill you with weapons or martial arts, hancock can defeat you via being sexy.

Well, it does seem like luffy is still to weak to become PK overall. The manga would actually be boring if luffy already had that kind of strength. Just being capable of fighting admirals is already enough to scare even the likes of doflamingo(who didn't want to fight kuzan), I doubt luffy has that sort of strength just yet. Even now his attempt at taking on a yonko is a combined venture between his and law's crew and they likely will have trouble even with doflamingo. I also doubt smoker or even vergo are among the stronger VAs for that matter. Smoker was basically worthless 2 years ago and even then he was capable of holding his ground against vergo who was supposedly already a proficient haki user years ago. I could be wrong but I have a hard time believing those two would be the most the VAs have to offer, specially if we consider any potential admiral would normally be selected from among the VAs....

vagabond87
May 20, 2013, 01:14 PM
Well, sengoku was damn grateful (http://www.mangastream.to/one-piece-chapter-523-page-11.html) hancock actually joined the war and acknowledged her strength. I don't think we have any reason to consider her weak even among the shichibukai.... She is a proficient haki user with the conqueror's haki and has a versatile fruit which even seems to sexually arouse people regardless of gender.... She is basically the non plus ultra of femme fatales... most feme fatales kill you with weapons or martial arts, hancock can defeat you via being sexy.

Well, it does seem like luffy is still to weak to become PK overall. The manga would actually be boring if luffy already had that kind of strength. Just being capable of fighting admirals is already enough to scare even the likes of doflamingo(who didn't want to fight kuzan), I doubt luffy has that sort of strength just yet. Even now his attempt at taking on a yonko is a combined venture between his and law's crew and they likely will have trouble even with doflamingo. I also doubt smoker or even vergo are among the stronger VAs for that matter. Smoker was basically worthless 2 years ago and even then he was capable of holding his ground against vergo who was supposedly already a proficient haki user years ago. I could be wrong but I have a hard time believing those two would be the most the VAs have to offer, specially if we consider any potential admiral would normally be selected from among the VAs....

Vergo was G5 Commander and he pretty much defeated Smoker even if Smoker was aiming at giving Law his heart back he could have beaten Vergo and then give Law his heart. He wasnt capable of beating him sooo he changed his strategy and fallen in process. Vergo was pretty much above Smoker imo. He should be considered imo as one of top Vice Admirals even if we didnt saw some top dogs like Onigumo or Dobreman fighting anyone seriously in a fight as long as Vergo had.

FetherMan
May 20, 2013, 01:51 PM
I agree with some of the people chosen to be equal to Luffy, but not Big Mam. Seriously underestimating what she could be capable of and for all we know, Oda could deem her as the second previous strongest Yonkou to Whitebeard.

Luffy has gotten stronger, but Oda has already shown that there are a lot of strong people in the New World.

Azuma
May 20, 2013, 01:59 PM
I'm not saying that the VAs are superior to Luffy, but how can you argue that Smoker is capable of defeating Luffy while the other VAs can't. Smoker is one of the newer VAs, what reason is there to believe that he is superior to the others of his rank. I'd be more likely to believe that Smoker is one of the weaker VAs, particularly after his showing against Vergo. If Smoker is a match for Luffy, the odds are Luffy would be defeated by quite a few VAs.


This isn't so right. Hancock was unscratched throughout the entire war. She got stuck in against Pirates and against Marines for Luffy but she dispatched of Pacifistas effortlessly 2 years ago. No reason to assume she was only strong from Haki. She is genuinely good fighter.
You're underrating her. She can't be so weak since she wouldn't be so highly regarded for her strength since she is known for both her combat ability and beauty.


This is rather off. Dalmatian and Momonga outclassed Luffy 2 years ago effortlessly when they bumped into him in the war.
Onigumo's efficiency with his Spider Fruit in catching Marco should be noted. How effortless it was for Onigumo to cuff Marco by the wrist is something
Don't underestimate the VA's. They're still the real deal.

Smoker only just got promoted so there is nothing to suggest he is the strongest of the VA's after he was shut down by Vergo, another VA.
Smoker > Luffy? I dunno about that. It was ArmorHaki that was holding Luffy back previously.

I think Luffy can fight VA's without his life being in sheer danger like back in Part I.
I can totally see Luffy winning against VA's at this moment. Zoro against some too.

Both of you misunderstood me. I do not think Smoker (or Vergo) would definitely defeat Luffy. In a one-on-one, I am sure Luffy would be victorious. What I meant was that depending on the conditions of the fight, they have the potential to give him a hard time and be victorious in the end. If there were another scenario a lá Marineford where Luffy fights one opponent after the next, I could see him having a lot of trouble getting past someone like Smoker and Vergo. Other VAs like Momonga and Dalmatian are of course included in the exceptions.

In contrast, there are some characters like Coby (pre-timeskip) etc. that the current Luffy would defeat in his sleep. Even amongst the VA, there are some I just can't see Luffy struggling against. Most of the giants would fall into that category. One Red Hawk would probably be enough to defeat the majority of them since it seems like their size plays an enormous role behind their appointment as VA. They did not seem too impressive during the Marineford Battle.

To be honest, I could see Zoro giving the VAs more trouble than Luffy. At the moment, it seems like Zoro is ridiculously strong, perhaps even stronger than Luffy. He has practically stomped each and every one of his opponents, including Hody (under water as well).

As for Hancock, I was not implying that she was weak. What I said was that I do not believe her to be stronger than Luffy. Luffy is clearly immune to her DF and the only advantage she held over him, as I said, was that she could use Haki whereas he could not. Now that he has gained that ability too, I do not see how Hancock would be able to defeat Luffy. Compared to others, she is still a very strong character, of course. I wouldn't be suprised if she were to defeat the likes of Moria and Crocodile, for example.

Of course Sengoku would be happy to have her join their side. She is undoubtedly a strong fighter and having another Shichibukai is a great pscyhological boost. Especially after Jinbei and Blackbeard defected, the WG & Marines would look bad if 3/7 Shichibukai wouldn't show up. The footsoldiers would probably lose morale as well (they rarely do anything useful, though).

David Rose
May 20, 2013, 06:15 PM
I think it's also important to reconsider that every fight, we have been shown from the strawhats yet, was either a one-hit-win or at a clear disadvantage. Imagine Luffy's fight with Hody on an Island. Until he learned Armament Haki, Luffy was always at a disadvantage against blades. Imagine him fighting Mr. 1 and Zorro fighting Enel.
Oda always finds ways to give every strawhat their best match up when it comes to important fights, which kinda overthrows the power-balance in theory. When it comes to Luffy, he should be stronger than any Vice-Admiral and maybe even stronger than most Yonkou-officers atm. He will still be inferior to Admirals and Yonkou by himself. And it would be awfully boring it he weren't.

Luffy is far stronger than Zorro, if it would be possible to measure their power on a scale. Otherwise Zorro would be the Captain. To me it's that simple. And Zorro being overpowered? Please show me a fight with an equal opponent. :P

I'm not a fan of discussions if Luffy would be stronger than Hancock, since they won't fight in the manga. It's clearly not intended and therefore could be kinda ignored.

Azuma
May 21, 2013, 12:12 AM
I think it's also important to reconsider that every fight, we have been shown from the strawhats yet, was either a one-hit-win or at a clear disadvantage. Imagine Luffy's fight with Hody on an Island. Until he learned Armament Haki, Luffy was always at a disadvantage against blades. Imagine him fighting Mr. 1 and Zorro fighting Enel.
Oda always finds ways to give every strawhat their best match up when it comes to important fights, which kinda overthrows the power-balance in theory. When it comes to Luffy, he should be stronger than any Vice-Admiral and maybe even stronger than most Yonkou-officers atm. He will still be inferior to Admirals and Yonkou by himself. And it would be awfully boring it he weren't.

Luffy is far stronger than Zorro, if it would be possible to measure their power on a scale. Otherwise Zorro would be the Captain. To me it's that simple. And Zorro being overpowered? Please show me a fight with an equal opponent. :P

I'm not a fan of discussions if Luffy would be stronger than Hancock, since they won't fight in the manga. It's clearly not intended and therefore could be kinda ignored.

I never used the term overpowered so I'm not entirely sure what it is you are asking me [about Zoro]. But in any case, Luffy isn't far stronger than Zoro. From the beginning, Oda has made them somewhat equal and it's hard to see which one of them is stronger. And I can't show you a fight with an equal opponent because there hasn't been any. That was my point. Zoro has defeated everyone with ease.

vagabond87
May 21, 2013, 12:42 AM
I never used the term overpowered so I'm not entirely sure what it is you are asking me [about Zoro]. But in any case, Luffy isn't far stronger than Zoro. From the beginning, Oda has made them somewhat equal and it's hard to see which one of them is stronger. And I can't show you a fight with an equal opponent because there hasn't been any. That was my point. Zoro has defeated everyone with ease.

Since when Zoro was defeating his opponents with ease? Mr1? Kaku? Ryuma?
As for posts comparing Zoro and Luffy- strongest guy is capitan, simple as that. There is small margin between them, same with Zoro-Sanji. Its wasting time going into discussion who is stronger. For example in Punk Hazard arc Zoro gotten far weaker enemy than pretty beaten up Sanji, you cant explain that. Vergo was most probably lot stronger than Cesar.
Its not thread about monster trio combat power but about who is stronger than Luffy and Zoro is not. Thats all that there is.. and they are not equall.
After Dressrosa arc we will have better insides into strength of Luffy(and other Strawhats).

David Rose
May 21, 2013, 03:13 AM
That's really the whole point. Zorro hasn't had any serious opponents and Luffy too. But he had more struggles since CC was still far stronger than Monet was, plus he never did Luffy the favor of confronting him directly from 100 to 0. He was always either running, or catching everybody off guard and thus escaping.

Maybe the fight with Don Chinjao will bring more information on this whole matter. I still want an explaination for the Red Hawk and how strong is really is as an attack, compared to his Elephant Gun.

Azuma
May 21, 2013, 02:48 PM
Since when Zoro was defeating his opponents with ease? Mr1? Kaku? Ryuma?
As for posts comparing Zoro and Luffy- strongest guy is capitan, simple as that. There is small margin between them, same with Zoro-Sanji. Its wasting time going into discussion who is stronger. For example in Punk Hazard arc Zoro gotten far weaker enemy than pretty beaten up Sanji, you cant explain that. Vergo was most probably lot stronger than Cesar.
Its not thread about monster trio combat power but about who is stronger than Luffy and Zoro is not. Thats all that there is.. and they are not equall.
After Dressrosa arc we will have better insides into strength of Luffy(and other Strawhats). I am talking about Zoro post-timeskip. Hody, Monet, Octopus-swordsman have all been fodder compared to him.

I guess it also depends quite a bit on the match-ups. I think Zoro would have defeated Vergo with ease since he uses swords.

susanoo13
May 21, 2013, 02:55 PM
Although this would steer away from the subject a little how do you think Lucci would fare against VAs?
His douriki was said to be unheard of and he was very fast and powerful so it does make me think assuming Luffy would right now pretty much kick his ass I don't think at least any VA can pose a serious threat to him aside for the ones closer to being Admiral.
I believe we will have more information once we can more or less know where Vergo stood in the power of VAs.

Azuma
May 21, 2013, 03:08 PM
Although this would steer away from the subject a little how do you think Lucci would fare against VAs?
His douriki was said to be unheard of and he was very fast and powerful so it does make me think assuming Luffy would right now pretty much kick his ass I don't think at least any VA can pose a serious threat to him aside for the ones closer to being Admiral.
I believe we will have more information once we can more or less know where Vergo stood in the power of VAs.

Nah. Lucci is nothing comapred to any VA, at least not any known. The fact that they all use Haki pretty much puts them above him.

Airgrimes
May 21, 2013, 03:32 PM
Although this would steer away from the subject a little how do you think Lucci would fare against VAs?
His douriki was said to be unheard of and he was very fast and powerful so it does make me think assuming Luffy would right now pretty much kick his ass I don't think at least any VA can pose a serious threat to him aside for the ones closer to being Admiral.
I believe we will have more information once we can more or less know where Vergo stood in the power of VAs.
Hey... Don't go there with this man... I did this and it kicked up a shitstorm in another thread fairly recently.
There are tons of Lucci believers on here who think his post time-skip self is a complete beast even to this day and that Lucci could beat VA's... ... ...

I would like to re-iterate that Luffy is at a level where he can win against VA's where people forget in his post timeskip self, Luffy would have comfortably lost to pretty much every VA?

alisdfd
May 21, 2013, 06:44 PM
post time skip luffy can face VAs and possibly win against them

Ninja_Pirate
May 21, 2013, 11:48 PM
One thing I really really like in one piece.. the power levels are not absurd …. There is no power house in one piece who can’t be taken down (proved by the fall of WB) … There is no fight which goes one way until its main character vs fodder…..

When luffy has beaten Don krieg with such a big fleet.. that feat alone didn’t make the fight at arlong park any less interesting …. When luffy has beaten Crocodile oda has put that fight so beautifully that even today we recognise croc as a force to reckon … If luffy won against Enel or CP9 or Moriah … still we readers are not sure if he can win against any other shichibukai … I still think Enel and Croc as enemies u would not like to cross paths with ….

Luffy can be pushed to limits and Enemy could be driven by emotions at the end which might result in luffy’s victory … like Moriah .. And that enemy could be a yonkou …. So even if luffy beats a yonkou or Dofla… We will still be arguing that is luffy par with an admiral or not :p …

So I really love how power levels are put up in one piece by Oda… :)

And also I believe that there is no one left in one piece world who luffy cant hold off physically and come out alive... including each and everyone ...

vagabond87
May 22, 2013, 12:55 AM
I am talking about Zoro post-timeskip. Hody, Monet, Octopus-swordsman have all been fodder compared to him.

I guess it also depends quite a bit on the match-ups. I think Zoro would have defeated Vergo with ease since he uses swords.

Oh ok I thought that you were talking about whole One Piece- I didnt understood as I should.

When it comes to Vergo I do think that both Sanji and Zoro could defeat him with going all out. Vergos bamboo when imbued with CoA was no joke, I do think that Zoros attacks beside Ashura might not have cut it. Vergo was really tough cookie, I still kind of wait for his comeback as I think he might have been Devil Fruit user- metal paramecia- and way he was taken out, no flashback of what he has done to Law kind of points that there will be more to him that we have seen till now.

matzik1212
May 23, 2013, 09:51 AM
post time skip luffy can face VAs and possibly win against them

Let me remind you that Zoro defeated a VA pretimeskip (I know it was just just one slash but that saved their asses while they were trying to reach EL ) Luffy can defeat a VA now IMO

KingOfNight
May 23, 2013, 11:59 AM
Let me remind you that Zoro defeated a VA pretimeskip (I know it was just just one slash but that saved their asses while they were trying to reach EL ) Luffy can defeat a VA now IMO

Who's that VA ? I don't remember that scene...

kkck
May 23, 2013, 12:30 PM
Before ennies lobby... I don't think zoro ever fought a VA. he fought tbone if I recall but he only a captain and overall fodder.

ish3
May 23, 2013, 12:42 PM
it
Who's that VA ? I don't remember that scene...

hes referring to marine captain ship cutting t bone.....whos not a vice admiral.

eww im mad kkck was first damn phone been trying to post for twenty minutes but yea pre time skip no one defeated a va in thw mugiwaras crew.

matzik1212
May 23, 2013, 03:15 PM
Oh I don't know why I had the idea he was a VA :oh .... My bad :p

Airgrimes
May 24, 2013, 10:08 AM
Oh I don't know why I had the idea he was a VA :oh .... My bad :p
Its because he was seriously hyped up. All the lesser petty officers (that's actually their rank lol) were hyping him up as he stepped up to take on Zoro who just... Well... wrecked him...

At EL in the story, the entire crew were strong enough to dispatch of a Marine Captain individually. With many of them taking out various Captains lol.
The average Captain level was already fodder in the eyes of the SH's too.
Although if Coby learns to use his Soru more efficiently he could be stronger than the average one.

zelllogan
May 24, 2013, 12:13 PM
For what we have seen, a lot of VA are only around pre-timeskip supernova level. A current luffy , sanji or zoro would simply trash most of them. If Bartolomeo can do it, no reason for our monster trio not to do it.

alisdfd
May 24, 2013, 07:10 PM
Let me remind you that Zoro defeated a VA pretimeskip (I know it was just just one slash but that saved their asses while they were trying to reach EL ) Luffy can defeat a VA now IMO

thank you for the reply but not being rude please help me to find the chapter where zoro defeated a VA

I think you are talking about T-BONE - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/T-Bone he is a captain not a VA if I am wrong correct me

---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------


For what we have seen, a lot of VA are only around pre-timeskip supernova level. A current luffy , sanji or zoro would simply trash most of them. If Bartolomeo can do it, no reason for our monster trio not to do it.

bart boy's df works in his favour thus he could have won due to maynard's impatience to find out the weak spot


I think they will be able to defeat VA but only lower class ones not the ones that are being trained as law already said the marines have been preparing. in my mind those who are part of the preparation are able to give luffy a hard time

Azuma
May 25, 2013, 06:13 AM
thank you for the reply but not being rude please help me to find the chapter where zoro defeated a VA

I think you are talking about T-BONE - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/T-Bone he is a captain not a VA if I am wrong correct me If you had bothered to actually read the posts here, you would've noticed that she was shown to be wrong and acknowledged that. You pointing it out again is somewhat unnecessary.

Airgrimes
May 25, 2013, 06:17 AM
For what we have seen, a lot of VA are only around pre-timeskip supernova level. A current luffy , sanji or zoro would simply trash most of them. If Bartolomeo can do it, no reason for our monster trio not to do it.
Pre-timeskip Supernova level? Where the hell did that come from?
Dalmatian and Momonga just bumped into Luffy in the war and outclassed him effortlessly and continued dispatching of pirates.

I agree Monster Trio can all beat Vice-Admirals, but trash them? That's a bit too far.

matzik1212
May 25, 2013, 08:55 AM
thank you for the reply but not being rude please help me to find the chapter where zoro defeated a VA

I think you are talking about T-BONE - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/T-Bone he is a captain not a VA if I am wrong correct



bart boy's df works in his favour thus he could have won due to maynard's impatience to find out the weak spot



Someone already pointed out my mistake :) And I already replied admitting it was my bad . You should read all the pots before bringing back the already solved puzzle

KingOfNight
May 26, 2013, 03:24 AM
For what we have seen, a lot of VA are only around pre-timeskip supernova level. A current luffy , sanji or zoro would simply trash most of them. If Bartolomeo can do it, no reason for our monster trio not to do it.

I don't think all VA are at the same level. For example : Momonga and Onigumo seem to be quite fearsome, while in comparison, Smoker and Vergo seem petty before them. There's also Garp, who's (or was?) much more powerful than any VA and maybe some Admirals. You could say that he was supposed to be promoted but that doesn't change the fact that he's (was?) still a VA.

zelllogan
May 26, 2013, 04:08 AM
That's why I said a "lot" & not "all". But aside from Garp, no VA had an interesting background or story importance yet. VA are just used as stepping stones to assess the strength of the opponents. VA represent just nothing in One piece.

- the 4 VA in Enies Lobby were not able to stop Luffy ... & they were almost scared by Lucci. They didn't move a finger & they let the two beasts (lucci-luffy) fighting each other.
- VA Lacroix was easily beaten by Oars Jr
- VA Ronse was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA John Giant was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA Momonga had to stab himself in front of Hancock
- VA Momonga was stopped by Do Flamingo
- Vergo was beaten by post-time skip Law and also did a quick draw against sanji.
- A VA was trashed by Bartolomeo


You can see the patern here ... And to see a VA beating someone relevant in One Piece ... well there was just no VA able to do that aside from Garp. That's a fact. The biggest achievement from a VA who is not Garp was to caught Marco off-guard. Vergo wasn't too bad either but that's it. In 700 chapters, that's it.

I'm not saying there aren't strong, very strong VA but so far in the manga, I'm still waiting for a VA to impress me. Based on facts alone, VA are just disappointing. The impressive marines so far were Magellan, Garp, Sentomaru & the amirals.

To finish, VA is just a rank for very experienced marines. IF Oda want me to take a VA seriously, give me a very young VA.

Airgrimes
May 27, 2013, 08:06 AM
That's why I said a "lot" & not "all". But aside from Garp, no VA had an interesting background or story importance yet. VA are just used as stepping stones to assess the strength of the opponents. VA represent just nothing in One piece.

- the 4 VA in Enies Lobby were not able to stop Luffy ... & they were almost scared by Lucci. They didn't move a finger & they let the two beasts (lucci-luffy) fighting each other.
No.
Firstly, ALL VA's are said to have Haki,
There were 5 VA in Enies Lobby, and you need to read the manga urgently.
The VA's didn't even fight so this is nonsense. They allowed CP9 to finish the job. All they were doing was destroying the island.
Have you forgotten the BusterCall in Ohara? Aokiji and Sakaizuki didn't jump onto the island and engage in combat.

I'll tell you this, since Onigumo effortlessly caught Marco in mid-flight, and ALL VA's have Haki, Onigumo would have beaten Luffy at Enies Lobby, also Luffy was too tired to even move after the fight with Lucci so had the VA's known that, they could have easily jumped inside and killed him.

You watched the anime. In the manga, only ONE VA comments on Lucci's ability, the rest just relax since their job was only to destroy the island. Had they got involved Luffy would have died.

The others didn't give a damn about Lucci so you shouldn't say they were afraid. Re-read the chapter and you'll understand no VA was actualy "scared" of Lucci.
It was just respect.

Momongo and Dalmatian completely outclassed Luffy when they met in him in the war.



- VA Lacroix was easily beaten by Oars Jr
- VA Ronse was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
- VA John Giant was easily beaten by WhiteBeard
This is just ridiculous. Oars Jr. is a got damn tank. The descendant of Oars who completely wrecked the SH's and tons of others.
Since when was losing to WB an insult?
They took several critical genuine quake hits to them.
You're joking if you think losing to WB means you're unimpressive.

Remember how WB took on Sakaizuki and knocked him elsewhere. Sakaizuki at no point looked like he was going to win against WB.
So this is an invalid point.


You can see the patern here ... And to see a VA beating someone relevant in One Piece ... well there was just no VA able to do that aside from Garp. That's a fact. The biggest achievement from a VA who is not Garp was to caught Marco off-guard. Vergo wasn't too bad either but that's it. In 700 chapters, that's it.

I'm not saying there aren't strong, very strong VA but so far in the manga, I'm still waiting for a VA to impress me. Based on facts alone, VA are just disappointing. The impressive marines so far were Magellan, Garp, Sentomaru & the amirals.

To finish, VA is just a rank for very experienced marines. IF Oda want me to take a VA seriously, give me a very young VA.
Firstly, Magellan isn't even a Marine, he works for the WG but not through the Navy.
Sentomaru has only shown Haki, something that the VA's have. There is zero evidence to assume Sentomaru is any stronger than the VA's.
First of all, Vergo beat Smoker, so unless you want to tell me Smoker is really weak as you say VA's are...

Had the war not been so hectic, Momonga would have dispatched of Luffy right here.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101121163256/onepiece/images/thumb/4/47/Momonga_luffy.jpg/640px-Momonga_luffy.jpg

X Drake only had the rank of Rear-Admiral and he was pretty strong but clearly not enough to be a VA.
Honestly, you're really wrong for saying the VA's are weak.

How would a Young VA make a difference?
In fact, that's the key to showing how difficult it is to be a VA or Admiral, nobody when they are so young is strong enough to attain the rank.

Ninja_Pirate
May 28, 2013, 01:19 AM
No.


How would a Young VA make a difference?
In fact, that's the key to showing how difficult it is to be a VA or Admiral, nobody when they are so young is strong enough to attain the rank.

That is the reason young VA sounds cool... There are young pirates who are stronger than VA :) ... But I guess since its government we are talking about.. it works not solely on strength but also on experience... :)

Azuma
May 28, 2013, 01:42 AM
We'll probably soon see a young VA in the form of Coby. He has already unlocked Haki and has probably become significantly stronger. It wouldn't surprise me if he's now a rear-admiral, depending on how much stronger Oda feels like making him.

Jorge D. Dragon
May 28, 2013, 02:23 AM
If I'm not mistaken, it was stated in a thread about the last OP movie that Coby is now a Captain like Tashigi, so he is quite far from being Vice Admiral.

Ninja_Pirate
May 28, 2013, 02:36 AM
We'll probably soon see a young VA in the form of Coby. He has already unlocked Haki and has probably become significantly stronger. It wouldn't surprise me if he's now a rear-admiral, depending on how much stronger Oda feels like making him.

Considering Sentomaru joined as rear admiral (who pawned pre time skip luffy),,, I have doubts that Coby will join as Rear Admiral... I think it can be concluded that marine ranks cannot be achieved by strength only .... Experience matters,,, :)

vagabond87
May 28, 2013, 04:15 AM
Considering Sentomaru joined as rear admiral (who pawned pre time skip luffy),,, I have doubts that Coby will join as Rear Admiral... I think it can be concluded that marine ranks cannot be achieved by strength only .... Experience matters,,, :)

Coby is confirmed to be Capitan after time skip. Please do some research people if you want to discuss.
And I would like to get to see where it was said that Sentomaru joined as rear admiral :3c links please:3c
BTW I would say that Sentomaru being one of strong Vice Admirals would fit for me really nice

Ninja_Pirate
May 28, 2013, 06:14 AM
Coby is confirmed to be Capitan after time skip. Please do some research people if you want to discuss.
And I would like to get to see where it was said that Sentomaru joined as rear admiral :3c links please:3c
BTW I would say that Sentomaru being one of strong Vice Admirals would fit for me really nice

I guess both the things I commented/quoted turned out to be wrong..lol... Coby is a captain... but again that is told in One piece volume 1000 (have not gone through that yet) and not in regular manga (or may be SBS- cant see it till SBS vol 68) .. For Sentomaru..he said marine officer dont know why i remembered him saying rear admiral... My bad..oops

TheLuffySmile
May 28, 2013, 09:17 AM
Coby is confirmed to be Capitan after time skip. Please do some research people if you want to discuss.
And I would like to get to see where it was said that Sentomaru joined as rear admiral :3c links please:3c
BTW I would say that Sentomaru being one of strong Vice Admirals would fit for me really nice
Can you please link to where it says that Coby is a captain? (in the manga)

vagabond87
May 28, 2013, 12:22 PM
Can you please link to where it says that Coby is a captain? (in the manga)

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Coby
Dig this- its info from One Piece voulme 1000(that is canon) + some info from anime episode that showed Coby after time skip(not canon yet Cobys design and power most probably is same as it will be shown in the manga). Sorry but I wont give you exact page of volume 1000, you must be stisfied with what I gave..
@Ninja_ Pirate- sorry for sounding harsh I really like when we share our thoughts here at same time keeping eye to some small facts/details that overally matter in greater scope of this manga:)

Airgrimes
May 28, 2013, 01:24 PM
That is the reason young VA sounds cool... There are young pirates who are stronger than VA :) ... But I guess since its government we are talking about.. it works not solely on strength but also on experience... :)
Tell me a young Marine besides Sentomaru that has been strong so far in the series?
Its because besides those who don't wish to be good people but instead live for their own selfish dream, there are few young marines that are strong.

I don't see why a Young VA makes a difference. You guys have all changed the subject for an empty discussion.
On average in this series, the Elderly and Middle Age people kick the ass of the Youth.

Monster trio, Law, Kid, Bonney, Hawkins, Apoo cannot compare to Admirals, Rayleigh, Yonkou, WB Commanders, Dragon, Garp, Sengoku, Doflamingo, Mihawk,
The Middle Age and Elderly will kick the ass of most youth.
Nobody who can compete for the rank of strongest in the series right now, is in their youth so its a nonsensical idea.

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------


Considering Sentomaru joined as rear admiral (who pawned pre time skip luffy),,, I have doubts that Coby will join as Rear Admiral... I think it can be concluded that marine ranks cannot be achieved by strength only .... Experience matters,,, :)
Is Sentomaru's rank of Rear Admiral confirmed?
It is by experience up until about Rear Admiral to Vice Admiral.
You cannot be VA without Haki. That statement that all VA's are weak was nonsense.

kkck
May 28, 2013, 10:26 PM
If I'm not mistaken, it was stated in a thread about the last OP movie that Coby is now a Captain like Tashigi, so he is quite far from being Vice Admiral.

well, in rank he would obviously be inferior to a VA however strength is a different matter altogether. 2 years can make a huge difference for people and we know that coby was at least talented enough to awaken haki on his own. Even if coby does not match up to a VA nowadays his strength could easily exceed that of a mere captain. By now coby should have mastered haki considering everything. He should be well stronger than what most supernova were 2 years ago considering that just matching pre time skip luffy would mean coby at the moment has irrelevant strength.

Ninja_Pirate
May 29, 2013, 12:18 AM
Tell me a young Marine besides Sentomaru that has been strong so far in the series?
Its because besides those who don't wish to be good people but instead live for their own selfish dream, there are few young marines that are strong.

I don't see why a Young VA makes a difference. You guys have all changed the subject for an empty discussion.
On average in this series, the Elderly and Middle Age people kick the ass of the Youth.


There is a reason why there is no young VA… Marine is an organisation and joining it is followed by giving a certain rank (cadet for youngsters I guess) and then training…. In training they are trained in an organised way from 1 level to another… and there is no jumps… like we do in school… And that kind of things are not applicable for pirate .. they can train however and whatever pace they want to .. they are not limited by laws of any organisation… no boundations…

No one is saying that young people can equate to middle aged younkous or admirals… The point was that the young pirates exist who are stronger than Vice admirals who are middle aged or old… that means pirates growth is faster than marines…

VAs are obviously stronger than lot of people and that's y it is a statement to be made for Luffy, or other supernovas or Barto who can trash them …

---------- Post added at 10:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------


[SPOILER]

@Ninja_ Pirate- sorry for sounding harsh I really like when we share our thoughts here at same time keeping eye to some small facts/details that overally matter in greater scope of this manga:)

Was it harsh.. I thought you are being sarcastic.. I don't mind .. because I like doing that too when I catch someone .. :p .. I did search for sentomaru’s rear admiral status as I remembered it that way (don’t know why).. If I would have find out that to be true… my statements were ready for you pal… ;)

Jorge D. Dragon
May 29, 2013, 01:31 AM
kkck
Well, when we last saw Coby (before timeskip) he was even more useless than any of weak Trio from Mugivaras, so I seriously doubt that after just two years he would grow tha much.
When I learned about Coby's new rank I was actually surprised, since I believe it's too much for him. I seriously doubt he is stronger than minimum Captain.

Azuma
May 29, 2013, 01:48 AM
Tell me a young Marine besides Sentomaru that has been strong so far in the series?
Its because besides those who don't wish to be good people but instead live for their own selfish dream, there are few young marines that are strong.

I don't see why a Young VA makes a difference. You guys have all changed the subject for an empty discussion.
On average in this series, the Elderly and Middle Age people kick the ass of the Youth.

Monster trio, Law, Kid, Bonney, Hawkins, Apoo cannot compare to Admirals, Rayleigh, Yonkou, WB Commanders, Dragon, Garp, Sengoku, Doflamingo, Mihawk,
The Middle Age and Elderly will kick the ass of most youth.
Nobody who can compete for the rank of strongest in the series right now, is in their youth so its a nonsensical idea.

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------


Is Sentomaru's rank of Rear Admiral confirmed?
It is by experience up until about Rear Admiral to Vice Admiral.
You cannot be VA without Haki. That statement that all VA's are weak was nonsense.

I'd classify Smoker as somewhat young.

Jorge D. Dragon
May 29, 2013, 04:57 AM
Young? If I'm not mistaken he is 36 years old... So I don't know if he can be called young. In my opinion he should be middle-aged at least.

Airgrimes
May 29, 2013, 05:05 AM
I'd classify Smoker as somewhat young.
How the hell is a 36 year old not in the Middle Age category in your mind lol?
Luffy is 19. THAT is young. He is almost half Smoker's age. Age 34 and below can be Youth.
Anything older is middle age. 36 year olds don't got to the same parties as 19 year olds. Completely different age groups lol.

Schabrak
May 29, 2013, 05:27 AM
kkck
Well, when we last saw Coby (before timeskip) he was even more useless than any of weak Trio from Mugivaras, so I seriously doubt that after just two years he would grow tha much.
When I learned about Coby's new rank I was actually surprised, since I believe it's too much for him. I seriously doubt he is stronger than minimum Captain.
What am I reading here? Coby 1.0 was a nothing, someone lower than fodder. Than some months later, under the tutelage of Garp he grew immensely and was even able to start an attack on Luffy, who at that point had to deal with some of the toughest people in Paradise. Not saying that they had a chance at winning at W7, but to say that they couldn't grow greatly within two more years is idiotic and I'm sure you would agree with that. Especially since Luffy and crew grew thousands of percent in strength during their short journey until their seperation.

Smoker is an "older" man, no matter how I look at it. Much older and it's time for a slow retirement and lot's of grey hair, if he hadn't had that hair color already. Aside from Tsuru, Garp, Kong and Sengoku, I can't remember any particular marine in that age group.

Azuma
May 29, 2013, 05:31 AM
Young? If I'm not mistaken he is 36 years old... So I don't know if he can be called young. In my opinion he should be middle-aged at least.

A 36 year old is somewhat young in my eyes.

Airgrimes
May 29, 2013, 05:57 AM
There is a reason why there is no young VA… Marine is an organisation and joining it is followed by giving a certain rank (cadet for youngsters I guess) and then training…. In training they are trained in an organised way from 1 level to another… and there is no jumps… like we do in school… And that kind of things are not applicable for pirate .. they can train however and whatever pace they want to .. they are not limited by laws of any organisation… no boundations…
No.
There ARE Jumps.
Coby has jumped ranks.
As far as we know, Smoker went from Commodore to Vice Admiral since there was no mention of him being a Rear Admiral.
Helmeppo skipped 3-4 ranks to get to his current rank of Lieutenant Commander.
Actually the names of the ranks you start are either Chore Boy- 19th rank.
Or Seaman Recruit - 18th rank.



No one is saying that young people can equate to middle aged younkous or admirals… The point was that the young pirates exist who are stronger than Vice admirals who are middle aged or old… that means pirates growth is faster than marines…
But this isn't a point. His point was also that VA's were weak. Something that isn't true.

In this series, the strongest people are the middle-aged and the elderly. Fact.
While its true the Youth have a faster growth rate, that's common sense since that's how life works. Even with this fast growth rate, there is no youth who can stand a chance against those known as the strongest in the series.
A Young VA who has a fast rate of growth makes no impact on the issue of VA's being weak.

Considering Issho may have had the rank of VA prior to being Admiral, or he was a Marine who was far too strong for the rank of VA and just had his own specific rank outside of the Rank system like Inspector or Instructor like Sengoku and Zephyr.


A 36 year old is somewhat young in my eyes.

Smoker is very close in age to Red-Haired Shanks. only 3 years separate them iirc.

Young is Luffy. Like I said, 19 years and 20 years old cannot be in the same category as 36.
Nowhere in the world are 36 year olds viewed as the youth of the nation.
36 is much more middle aged than "young".

In Soccer, Basketball and most Sports, 36 is a retirement age. It isn't young.

Azuma
May 29, 2013, 07:07 AM
There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.

Tonix
May 29, 2013, 07:49 AM
No.
There ARE Jumps.
Coby has jumped ranks.
As far as we know, Smoker went from Commodore to Vice Admiral since there was no mention of him being a Rear Admiral.
Helmeppo skipped 3-4 ranks to get to his current rank of Lieutenant Commander.
Actually the names of the ranks you start are either Chore Boy- 19th rank.
Or Seaman Recruit - 18th rank.



Considering Issho may have had the rank of VA prior to being Admiral, or he was a Marine who was far too strong for the rank of VA and just had his own specific rank outside of the Rank system like Inspector or Instructor like Sengoku and Zephyr.


Do we have proof that Coby and Helmeppo actually 'jumped' ranks, instead of them just being promoted while the story was focused on the Straw Hats?

And the bold part seems like something you pulled out of... someplace smelly... when you remember that Garp (who fought with Roger) was never considered 'too strong' for VA rank. I liked all the other stuff you said though :p

Airgrimes
May 29, 2013, 07:57 AM
There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.
No. Don't bring a condescending attitude since my age has nothing to do with what I've said.
There is somewhat young, and there is "in your youth".

When I say "Youth", it includes 26 year old Law, 23 year old Kid, 27 year old Killer,

In what country is somebody at the age of 36 grouped together with part of the youth?
Cut the 35-36 crap since he is 36, 36 just isn't what people call youth.

The term youth generally describes those between 16-24 but commonly extends to early 30s.
36 isn't early 30s.
Your idea of "somewhat" young is like you say, only in your eyes.
In sport the common retirement age is around 36 too.

Bottom line, Smoker isn't really in his Youth anymore.
Your argument is invalid since Franky is the same age as Smoker and has been refered to as uncle in the series and is noted to not be particularly young.



And the bold part seems like something you pulled out of... someplace smelly... when you remember that Garp (who fought with Roger) was never considered 'too strong' for VA rank. I liked all the other stuff you said though :p
Considering we have no mention of Issho being a VA, I didn't pull anything out of the place you're referring to :p
Its a fact we don't know what rank Issho had before becoming an Admiral so it was a fair statement hahaha.


Do we have proof that Coby and Helmeppo actually 'jumped' ranks, instead of them just being promoted while the story was focused on the Straw Hats?

Well... see this.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Vice_Admiral#Chore_Boy

They did a jump early on the series.

Schabrak
May 29, 2013, 08:23 AM
There's a difference between somewhat young and young. You simply chose to ignore 'somewhat'. Someone that's younger than 30 is young. A 35-36 year old is somewhat young. It's because you're 'only' 17 years old that you see 36 as middle-aged. I can understand that.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Median_age.png

Seems to be the median age for a big part of the world, let's stop this ridiculous discussion, as there is nothing to discuss. 36 is not young by every standard exclusing immortals, which do not exist. With 36 many people have their kids in high school already, can hardly be called young.

Azuma
May 29, 2013, 08:37 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Median_age.png

Seems to be the median age for a big part of the world, let's stop this ridiculous discussion, as there is nothing to discuss. 36 is not young by every standard exclusing immortals, which do not exist. With 36 many people have their kids in high school already, can hardly be called young.

I'd still consider them somewhat young. I know a handful of 30 year olds and neither of them would consider themselves to be middle-aged. Why do you care so much about it anyway? Kizaru is like 56 years old and still considered middle-aged.

Schabrak
May 29, 2013, 11:49 AM
I'm not worked up, I'm just giving you a portion of reality. Look at the median age of african countries? There, you are old as fuck with 40. 36 is just not young anymore, it doesn't matter what your colleagues like to think in that regard. By their definition and your opinion maybe, but not in OP and neither one earth excluding a couple first world countries like japan, german, sweden etc. With 36 many people will have lived half their life's, have spend as much time as an adult as a child, how can that be young?

Wikipedia on middle age :

According to Collins Dictionary, this is "... usually considered to occur approximately between the ages of 40 and 60".[1] The current edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives a similar definition but with a shorter span: "The period of life between young adulthood and old age, now usually regarded as between about forty-five and sixty." The US Census lists middle age as including both the age categories 35 to 44 and 45 to 54, while prominent psychologist Erik Erikson saw it ending a little later and defines middle adulthood as between 40 and 65. TheDiagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the standard diagnostic manual of theAmerican Psychiatric Association, used to define middle age as 40–60, but as of Edition IV (1994) revised the definition upwards to 45–65.

zelllogan
May 29, 2013, 01:20 PM
Launching a two-pages discussion just by telling "give me a young VA", I'm the master troll.

kkck
May 30, 2013, 10:22 AM
kkck
Well, when we last saw Coby (before timeskip) he was even more useless than any of weak Trio from Mugivaras, so I seriously doubt that after just two years he would grow tha much.
When I learned about Coby's new rank I was actually surprised, since I believe it's too much for him. I seriously doubt he is stronger than minimum Captain.

You have to considering that coby and helmepo have been trained by garp though. That is just about the same situation as luffy being trained by Rayleigh or Zoro being trained by mihawk. And even in part 1 coby went from being beneath average in terms of strength when compared to a normal human to being someone capable of performing at least zoru and earn a place among the marines fighting at marineford. To put in in perspective perhaps he would not be much of a match for luffy at the time of the war but perhaps he would be able to at least hold his ground against luffy at the start of the manga (who was magnitudes of strength beneath luffy at the time of the war). 2 years under garp and mastery of haki could easily make coby and helmepo into a force worth fearing among the marines. Its unlikey either of them would actually win against luffy but I don't think an scenario where they are not at the bare minimum proficient haki and rokushiki users capable of surviving on their own in the new world makes sense. His growth by the time we last saw him was already ridiculous so to speak, 2 more years worth of that would make them a threat for quite a few strawhats at least.

Airgrimes
May 30, 2013, 11:59 AM
Launching a two-pages discussion just by telling "give me a young VA", I'm the master troll.
You sir, are talented haha.

Jorge D. Dragon
June 03, 2013, 04:31 AM
kkck
Well, until Coby shows more than he showed in one of the last movie (some Soru and some other Rokushiki moves and breaking a metal plate) I can't see him beeing capable of taking down any of the Strawhats, especially after what they showed on Fishman Island and during Punk Hazard Arc. Even anyone from Weak Trio are too much for him individually for now until he actually shows otherwise. Not even talking about stronger members of Mugivara crew. Well Coby and Helmeppo can take down anyone from the Weak Trio, but I also doubt they have any chance against Brook, Franky or Robin after what they showed after timeskip.

P.S. We still have to see one new Admiral and maybe even one or more Vice Admirals, so it might be interesting if another Admiral is the one promoted from previos Vice Admirals or he is a completely new one like Fujitora.

Airgrimes
June 03, 2013, 05:28 AM
kkck
Well, until Coby shows more than he showed in one of the last movie (some Soru and some other Rokushiki moves and breaking a metal plate) I can't see him beeing capable of taking down any of the Strawhats, especially after what they showed on Fishman Island and during Punk Hazard Arc. Even anyone from Weak Trio are too much for him individually for now until he actually shows otherwise. Not even talking about stronger members of Mugivara crew. Well Coby and Helmeppo can take down anyone from the Weak Trio, but I also doubt they have any chance against Brook, Franky or Robin after what they showed after timeskip.
I get your point, but remember Monkey D. Garp quit the Marines Pre time-skip and set up a brand new Marine branch (probably 200+th lol) and was asked to become an instructor entirely for strengthening recruits).

So he would have been giving Coby & Helmeppo 2 years of training with even more focus than the months he had been with them pre-timesip since he had Marine duties.
Considering Coby learned Rokushiki moves in months with Garp, 2 years with a lot of Garp's attention, should result in somebody genuinely strong like even fighting on par with the Luffy that reached Enies Lobby.



P.S. We still have to see one new Admiral and maybe even one or more Vice Admirals, so it might be interesting if another Admiral is the one promoted from previos Vice Admirals or he is a completely new one like Fujitora.
Going by the war, despite Onigumo, Dalmatian and Momonga standing out as extremely strong, considering Issho the new Admiral has immediately appeared as ridiculously strong like the original 3 Admirals, I doubt they will be from the Vice-Admirals that we saw at Marineford but just Marine members we haven't seen yet like you say.

David Rose
June 05, 2013, 08:55 AM
I read this today:

Oda mentioned in a SBS that Shanks could have knocked out all 100,000 pirates and fishmen opposing the Straw Hats during the Fishman Island Arc with his Haoushoku Haki (Luffy managed to overwhelm 50,000).[25]

Well at first it only says, that Shanks Haki has roughly the double power, if not more. But since the King's disposition measures the willpower (or what else you like to call it) it may be Oda's way of telling us that Luffy has about half the strengh of the current Yonkous.

I don't know if this was mentioned before. I just happened to find it today, without double checking. Confirmation would be nice tho :P

Sproumfch
June 05, 2013, 12:03 PM
@David Rose :
Yeah that's a very interesting fact. But remember, you can see Jinbei saying "To think he'd go that far in only two years". Also, we know that's the King Disposition must be trained.
So it all makes sense. Shanks is a maybe 40 years old pirate, using his king's disposition for longer than Luffy has. But I don't see Shanks knocking out 50 000 guys back in his 20th (maybe he could, I don't know).
But I'm not sure it means that Luffy has half the stenght of a Yonkou. Well now the world (us & in OP universe) that Luffy is far weaker than a Yonkou. When 1, then 2, then 3 will get beaten by Luffy, everyone will acknoledge his streng. Let us have this conversation in one year, I think we may know a lot more about King's Disposition and Luffy's strenght.
But I still think that Rubber + Pure Strenght is the key to deliver the strongest fists here.

David Rose
June 05, 2013, 12:33 PM
I actually think that the 50% are some good value. Since Luffy always gets a huge power up during importan fights and he still got a lot fighting to do, before even facing the first Yonkou, his current strengh would still be huge, but leave a comfortable place for improvement.


But I still think that Rubber + Pure Strenght is the key to deliver the strongest fists here.

I really like that concept of Devil Fruits. It shows the power balance throughout the storyline. At first Logias are the most powerful fruits in any possible case. Now, further into the story the balance shifts.
In the end i would bet on parameica fruits, that alter your physical attacks, to be the strongest. Excluding Earthquakes in this matter, Luffy, Bellamy, even Miss Doublefinger have some pretty potent abilities. In a 1v1 match-up everything that boosts your raw physical strengh counts most, if you have a strong Haki.

Zoans are pretty good to, but i would rather consider them midclass, since they do increase your power, but not in an unnatural way like parameicas do. The possible multiplier is not that high in my opinion.