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HegemonKhan
December 28, 2011, 03:10 AM
Warning: Spoilers' (new chapters') contents *ARE* allowed in-for this thread


The AO Ranking and Discussion Thread

This thread is to Fan-Rank the AOs, and explain, discuss, and/or debate your rankings


The (Old) "Unholy Trinity":

(1) Isley, (2) Riful, and (3) Luciela

The Lone "Alien Queen":

(4) Rosemary (vs Ripley, J/K)

The "Tainted" Black Ones:

(5) Alicia and (6) Beth

The (New) "Unholy Trinity":

(7) Cassandra, (8) Roxanne, and (9) Hysteria

(Or, Credit to ZP, the "Death Divas", :super)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HK's Rankings:


The (Old) "Unholy Trinity":

Most Powerful

1. Luciela
2. Isley
3. Riful

Least Powerful

The (New) "Unholy Trinity":

(I haven't looked at ch 122 yet)

Most Powerful

1. Cassandra
2. Roxanne
3. Hysteria

Least Powerful

All 9 AOs in Ranking:

(I haven't looked at ch 122 yet)

Most Powerful

1. Alicia
2. Cassandra
3. Luciela
4. Isley
5. Riful
6. Rosemary
7. Beth
8. Roxanne
9. Hysteria

Least Powerful

Alisia
December 28, 2011, 05:12 AM
The Most Powerful (excluding Priscilla) is Alicia. Her sword tecnique on the awake is somethig of terrible. She is the perfect swordmaster. No one can alive to her attack.

Alicia Vs Easley = Alicia
Alicia Vs Riful = Alicia
Alicia Vs Luisella = Alicia

So....Alicia is most powerful than the old trinity

Now, about the new abyssal one (R-C-H) Roxy / Cassy / Histy :)

All the 3, do not seems to have particullary ability that can resist to the attack of Alicia. I' dont know what about their yoki ( if the three have the same ability of priscilla to regenerate her body faster), but in the match 1 Vs 1, no one of the three can beat Alicia.

Alicia Vs Cassandra = Alicia
Alicia Vs Roxanne = Alicia
Alicia Vs Histerya = Alicia

Alicia and Beth are a very letal weapon that was born to exterminate the abyssal one. If Priscilla doesn't exist, the org have win the war. Her ability, her strong, her speed, her sense to kill the enemy. All is perfect in this claymore.

For Beth: She have the same power of her sister, but her awakened form is not the same. Her aspect is not very good for a battle how the aspect of Alicia.

In the end...Alicia is the most powerfull AO int he entire story. Priscilla is owerpowered.

FrostyMouse
December 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
I'll get you an explanation when I have more time/can copy other explanations over.

However, for the moment:

1. Alicia
2. Isley
3. Cassandra
4. Riful
5. Hysteria
6. Luciela
7. Rosemary
8. Beth
9. Roxanne

HegemonKhan
December 29, 2011, 12:57 AM
@ Mei Terumi

what are your thoughts on:

Alicia vs Priscilla (and/or Destroyer)

would not Alicia be able to slice up Priscilla (and/or Destroyer) into little itty bitty pieces, just like all the other AOs ?

(I know I didn't include Priscilla, nor Destroyer, as they're more powerful than the other AOs, but I'm interested in whether you think Alicia can pwn Priscilla and/or Destroyer or not, and why yes or no, hehe)

--------------------

Also, Beth did quite well too against Priscilla, it wasn't just Alicia. Beth may not be as "sexy" as our "tm^ SC:BW Sarah Kerrigan Queen of Blades" Alicia, but that doesn't mean that Beth wasn't powerful too (her tail did rip open up Priscilla's back, lol), and Beth didn't do any worse against Priscilla either, both were easily pwned and toyed with by Priscilla, neither sister could last longer against Priscilla than the other sister, they were both simply far outclassed, as Priscilla proves, lol.

Alisia
December 29, 2011, 05:34 AM
Alicia would be able to slice up Priscilla (but not the Destroyer) into little itty bitty pieces. This is the true. The super power of priscilla comes largely from its incredible ability to regenerate instantly. I think she have a reserve of almost unlimited yoki, otherwise she would suffer the continuous use making it. In the scenes of the battle between the twins and Priscilla, she was hit / cut / damaged several times. If she not had her super quality, would not have survived.

The speech is different for the destroyer. She is a cluster of yoki, impossible to deal with in my opinion, so much so that even Priscilla have failed to manages to stop it or damage it. How do you fight something that does not have a true form?

About Beth: I'm not saying that is not strong, in practice has the same power to Alisia, but its form is less scope to direct confrontation like that of her sister. The physiognomy of Alisia is that of the perfect exterminator.

Louvre
December 29, 2011, 05:34 AM
I think this is a hard one.

For starters:

- We don't really know what was Rosemary capable of. We only know she was in the category of abyssal, being an awakened former number one. After all, vs Teresa any Abyssal would look weak.
- We don't really know what's Luciela's actual power/skill.
- Awakened Beth had the power of the Destroyer's hatchling. That's another awakened being's power we cannot truly measure.
- Cassandra, Roxanne and Hysteria are borrowing Priscilla's power. Wether if the power they're displaying is entirely theirs or not, is not certain.
- Techniques > Net power. As shown by Riful and more recently Cassandra.

So I think Cassandra has the upper hand vs Awakened being who's techniques include multiple slashes like: Alicia, Beth, Riful, Roxanne.


Also, Beth did quite well too against Priscilla, it wasn't just Alicia.

Beth+Destroyer's Hatchling. And human Clare did almost the same damage to human Priscilla.


what are your thoughts on:

Alicia vs Priscilla (and/or Destroyer)

To be honest, I don't even think Alicia could have beaten Riful without the abyssal feeders and the Destroyer around.

Alisia
December 29, 2011, 07:07 AM
To be honest, I don't even think Alicia could have beaten Riful without the abyssal feeders and the Destroyer around.

Why? Abyssal feeder has destroyed by Alisia. Destroyer are not envolved in the battle directly. Alisia have beat Riful in her human form, in spite of themselves by checking the yoki of beth.

Louvre
December 29, 2011, 01:32 PM
Why? Abyssal feeder has destroyed by Alisia. Destroyer are not envolved in the battle directly. Alisia have beat Riful in her human form, in spite of themselves by checking the yoki of beth.

Abyssal feeders require combat experience to be at their top in a fight. You cannot have them as a reference of Alicia's power.

Destroyer's hatchlings are not involved in battle, but they do add their strenght to the individual they infect (as shown with Dauph).

You're talking of a Riful who was weaken by:

- A little by Abyssal feeders.
- Greatly by the Destroyer's projectiles.

What exactly makes you think Alicia could take Riful 1 on 1?

Alisia
December 29, 2011, 02:18 PM
Riful dont' have hit Alisia. Alisia have hit more time Riful. Riful face is terrorizzed by the strong of her enemy.

eefrit
December 29, 2011, 03:00 PM
I always pegged Isley as the strongest since he was the oldest living AO. Though it's kind of hard to gauge their strength when we haven't seen much and don't have a proper way to gauge their strength. I'll give it a shot though...

Okay you know what, I can't judge them. I've been sitting here for 45 minutes arranging and re-arranging ranks, but nothing would work for me so you know what? I'm going to say that everyone besides Isley, Roxanne, and Rosemary are of equal strength. Isley is left out because I think he is the strongest because he is the oldest, by how much I don't know though. As for Roxanne and Rosemary, they haven't shown enough to be fairly judged.

Louvre
December 29, 2011, 04:10 PM
Riful dont' have hit Alisia. Alisia have hit more time Riful. Riful face is terrorizzed by the strong of her enemy.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/claymore/v17/c094/1.html

Here's the beggining of the short battle between Alicia and Riful.

HegemonKhan
December 29, 2011, 10:49 PM
Alicia would be able to slice up Priscilla (but not the Destroyer) into little itty bitty pieces. This is the true. The super power of priscilla comes largely from its incredible ability to regenerate instantly. I think she have a reserve of almost unlimited yoki, otherwise she would suffer the continuous use making it. In the scenes of the battle between the twins and Priscilla, she was hit / cut / damaged several times. If she not had her super quality, would not have survived.

The speech is different for the destroyer. She is a cluster of yoki, impossible to deal with in my opinion, so much so that even Priscilla have failed to manages to stop it or damage it. How do you fight something that does not have a true form?

About Beth: I'm not saying that is not strong, in practice has the same power to Alisia, but its form is less scope to direct confrontation like that of her sister. The physiognomy of Alisia is that of the perfect exterminator.

I forgot... Alicia did battle Priscilla... and got pwned... lol.

IGNORING Priscilla's Supremacy of Power, of physical abilities (strength and speed), of so easily slap-smack decapitating Alicia's head from her neck, killing Alicia...

If Alicia sliced up Priscilla's body, how would even she Regenerate? Priscilla has only done Regeneration while "much" of her body remained whole, we've never seen Priscilla chopped up into pieces like PA Clare did to Rigardo or 10% YR Teresa did to AO Rosemary.

Also... Priscilla does NOT have "near-infinite, nor infinite" Yoki, as was finally revealed somewhat recently, as Priscilla said to the Destroyer: ~"I'll use my FULL POWER to kill you". Finally we saw Priscilla's use of her FULL POWER, and yet the Destroyer wasn't killed, hehe. Meaning, her Yoki amount is finite, and she reached it against the Destroyer. Priscilla just has a very large amount of Yoki, but it's finite, it just took something as powerful as the Destroyer, to reveal the limit of her Yoki amount.

Alicia, I'd say could perfectly kill Priscilla, the problem is that Priscilla was simply superior to Alicia, too strong and too fast, for poor Priscilla, just as Teresa was as well, to everyone else, including Priscilla, hehe.

However... PA Clare's HUGE BLADE ARMS were an inch from pulverizing Priscilla's face-head, yet Priscilla didn't even flinch... is Priscilla truly unkillable then ?? Or, maybe does she have a body like Riful, Ophelia, and Agatha, and her "head" is actually just a fake head, with her real head and body somewhere inside of her Awakened form.

Khorr
December 30, 2011, 03:30 PM
Of all the AOs I can only conclude Isley > Luciela, but barely. None of the AOs were fighting a fair 1vs1 fight to determine who is stronger. We will see Roxanne VS Cassandra in near future I guess, unless the current claymore decided to throw off the fight.

spit
January 01, 2012, 12:52 PM
i think Hysterias speed is trulely horrifying

i quite agree with what i read from HK's post somewhere ---- that speed is very very important factor

since she has the power of AO and speed on edge i dont think normal AO can match her at all

claymore chapter 122 - i think ghosts could do good against AO, but against AO having speed as its special ability...

i dont know whether Hysteria's momentary top speed can match Priscilla's, frankly if it doesnt, i think Priscilla truly is just overpowered.. in this regard i believe Hysteria is the fastest AO and since her speed remains the factor while flying i dare to say she would win against everyone.. ( i can imagine Hysteria getting pwned against Priscilla easily but i think that is not very realistic)

SaphG1
January 01, 2012, 03:53 PM
Hard for me to say on this one. I do not consider Rosemary an AO, because it isn't just the requirment of having the numerical demonination of the number one given to you by the organization, but also you need a certain level of power before you awaken to really be an Abyssal one. Rosemary was more on par with Rigardo and Agatha then an Abyssal one like Isley or Riful. Likewise the Destroyer is on par with Priscilla and well beyond an Abyssal one in power so i don't count it amongst the list.

I think that power wise it's too difficult to say, these are all creatures that stalemate one another, if there were any pure defining power between them there such stalemates would not have existed, but because they are comparable fighting head to head makes them even enough that both side have to worry about losing.

If i were giving awards though...

Riful is awarded most Versatile body
Isley is awarded best offensive ability
Luciela is awarded most unique offense/defensive ability (Luciela is also awarded Fanfic awakened kittens with Rigardo, cat's unite!)
Beth is awarded an A for effort
Alicia is awarded most destructive single target attack
Hysteria is awarded the title of fastest Abyssal one
Cassandra is awarded the title most agile Abyssal one
Roxanne is is awarded the the meanest bit*ch trophy (because sometimes being a mean chick really does work out)

HegemonKhan
January 02, 2012, 03:07 AM
i quite agree with what i read from HK's post somewhere ---- that speed is very very important factor.

I don't think it was me who's post you're talking about, as I don't think I've ever really discussed Hysteria's speed, let alone avocated for it's "prowess". As, I'm not a fan of "travel speed", but rather instead of "combat speed". Miria-Hysteria may be fast, in moving towards (or away from) their opponents, but once they're close, then it's about "combat speed", Attack Quickness (AQ), and I feel Cassandra wins here. Hysteria's ES and/or Miria's AS vs Cassandra's "Dust Eater" (DE), Cassandra wins.

-----------------

AO Hysteria's speed does seem to make it impossible for the Ghosts to win against...

But, aside from the speed problem, I wouldn't count out Deneve... yet, *grins*

spit
January 03, 2012, 05:45 PM
i consider beings that are beyond AO still AO
the same as awakened beings are still yoma just on higher level
therefore destroyer,Priscilla are AO that are on higher level you can call them beyondAO they will be AO nonetheless

not saying it is like i said - i imagine it that way
as for Rosemary thats a difficult one - she WAS #1! she had qualifications no matter how strong or weak she was #1 is #1 + #1 can be weak no matter what generation..
the fact that stronger claymore (teresa) came doesnt change that she had qualifications therefore i consider her AO too

btw
the problem in finding out true strength is that you cant measure strength of beings that doesnt have the same kind of power if one is armored the other one quick what is better? it all depends in utilising power --> intelligence matter, condditions matter ---> there is no way deciding this solely on paper statistics.. thats bad but also much more good - we can debate over it

SagaraSouske
April 15, 2012, 03:51 PM
It is hard to compare really since certain match up may favor certain awaken forms. I would say Isley, Riful and Luciella are about equal in power (Isley and Luciella was shown to be just about equal in their fight). Alicia may be a good counter to Riful but not necessarily to Isley or Luciela. I would may be classify her to be slightly stronger then the 3 but she really cannot dominate any of them.

I would say all three zombie AOs are weaker then the original with Cassandra being the strongest. Hysteria may be stronger then Roxanne but she may lose in a real fight since her pride is her downfall.

I am firmly in the camp that think Rosemary was not a strong No.1 and thus no where near AO class.

FrostyMouse
April 15, 2012, 04:04 PM
It would appear that my original thoughts were wrong.


I'll get you an explanation when I have more time/can copy other explanations over.

However, for the moment:

1. Alicia
2. Isley
3. Cassandra
4. Riful
5. Hysteria
6. Luciela
7. Rosemary
8. Beth
9. Roxanne

Hysteria's clearly lower than I put her. Perhaps Beth should be higher, but I'm not sure.

With Rosemary, we didn't see enough to really know. If you can tank/avoid Roxanne's spears/needles/whatever they are, you win, so on that front, Rosemary could probably do it.

If I looked at it now, I'd probably put it as this:

1. Alicia
2. Isley
3. Cassandra
4. Riful (It's close between Cassandra and Riful, but Cassandra can eat Riful, plus Riful wasn't overwhelming quick, so I give the edge to Cassandra)
5. Luciela
6. Beth (Hysteria has more speed, but isn't durable at all, so if Beth can land a hit, and she's far more durable than a Claymore...)
7. Hysteria
8. Rosemary
9. Roxanne

SutterCain
April 15, 2012, 09:23 PM
1) alicia - has the advantage of being a custom made abyssal one...was most likely the most powerful...would have loved to have seen her vs isley
2) beth - it's hard to say how powerful she was/how the rod effected her, but i see no reason why she wouldn't have been at least equal to alicia
3) isley
4) riful - my personal fav of the bunch, i thought she had a great awakened form, without any obvious weaknesses
5) hysteria - i know, the performance we just saw from her was lackluster to say the least...but if we were to match her up against another abyssal one, and she fought more seriously, i think she'd be a big problem with her overwhelming speed
6) cassandra
7) luciela
8) roxanne
9) rosemary

number12michael
April 16, 2012, 06:36 AM
1) alicia - has the advantage of being a custom made abyssal one...was most likely the most powerful...would have loved to have seen her vs isley
2) beth - it's hard to say how powerful she was/how the rod effected her, but i see no reason why she wouldn't have been at least equal to alicia
3) isley
4) riful - my personal fav of the bunch, i thought she had a great awakened form, without any obvious weaknesses
5) hysteria - i know, the performance we just saw from her was lackluster to say the least...but if we were to match her up against another abyssal one, and she fought more seriously, i think she'd be a big problem with her overwhelming speed
6) cassandra
7) luciela
8) roxanne
9) rosemary

1) Alicia ( no doubt she was the strongest AO )
2)Cassandra- Her dust eater like attack style paired with her regeneration and ability to eat anything plus the heads move very fast makes her stronger then Isley
3) Isely
4) Riful- :D
5)Roxanne- She pretty much killed Hysteria before Cassandra bit her, on top of that i think if she was fighting another AO and they did not "know" her like Cassandra did then i think she would win.....put your hate aside people she was strong....not as strong as Cassandra but still strong.
6)Hysteria- Fighting another AO i think her speed Would be hard to handle
7)Luciela
8)Rosemary- we dont know much of her ability only that Teresa went to 10% and Obliterated her.

And Beth was a number 2 when she awakened, so she is not a Abyssal One

FrostyMouse
April 16, 2012, 08:39 AM
1) Alicia ( no doubt she was the strongest AO )
2)Cassandra- Her dust eater like attack style paired with her regeneration and ability to eat anything plus the heads move very fast makes her stronger then Isley
3) Isely
4) Riful- :D
5)Roxanne- She pretty much killed Hysteria before Cassandra bit her, on top of that i think if she was fighting another AO and they did not "know" her like Cassandra did then i think she would win.....put your hate aside people she was strong....not as strong as Cassandra but still strong.
6)Hysteria- Fighting another AO i think her speed Would be hard to handle
7)Luciela
8)Rosemary- we dont know much of her ability only that Teresa went to 10% and Obliterated her.

And Beth was a number 2 when she awakened, so she is not a Abyssal One

Rosemary had been a No. 1, but she was a No. 2 when she awakened. :P

The Based
April 16, 2012, 10:02 AM
And Beth was a number 2 when she awakened, so she is not a Abyssal One

The thing is though that just like with Luciela and Rafaela they were of equal strength so the ranking was little more than a formality. We also know from the new twins that Beth's pure awakened form would've been identical to Alicia's. The strategy of having twins swap roles mid-battle just hadn't been implemented until the latest generation.

As for Rosemary I'm under the impression that she only got her promotion because no one knew who was actually responsible for Hysteria's defeat. My speculation is that any other potential candidates were slain. Despite Teresa's hiding her strength she was still eventually recognized as being above Rosemary and given a seat in the elite 8 (Rose wasn't a part of that conversation). However, I can still see her being #1 material in an "average" generation with less HAX. So here is my ranking.

Tier 1:
Cassandra, Isley

Tier 2:
Everyone else including Beth

Tier 3:
Rosemary

SutterCain
April 16, 2012, 10:18 AM
1) Alicia ( no doubt she was the strongest AO )
2)Cassandra- Her dust eater like attack style paired with her regeneration and ability to eat anything plus the heads move very fast makes her stronger then Isley
3) Isely
4) Riful- :D
5)Roxanne- She pretty much killed Hysteria before Cassandra bit her, on top of that i think if she was fighting another AO and they did not "know" her like Cassandra did then i think she would win.....put your hate aside people she was strong....not as strong as Cassandra but still strong.
6)Hysteria- Fighting another AO i think her speed Would be hard to handle
7)Luciela
8)Rosemary- we dont know much of her ability only that Teresa went to 10% and Obliterated her.

And Beth was a number 2 when she awakened, so she is not a Abyssal One

cassandra's regeneration was impressive, but she's a little bit of a one trick pony...i say that without minimizing how powerful/effective the dust eater is, but against a battle savvy opponent, she'd be in trouble the longer the battle went on

i don't hate roxanne, in fact she was my favorite of the resurrected 3...there's no question she had the power of an abyssal one, cassandra did have to wait til she unarmed herself to go in for the kill...but she had no ability that would have given her an edge over an awakened being of equal power
(and she & cassandra only landed blows on hysteria cause she wasn't paying attention)

and the based already covered what i had to say about beth

number12michael
April 16, 2012, 12:34 PM
cassandra's regeneration was impressive, but she's a little bit of a one trick pony...i say that without minimizing how powerful/effective the dust eater is, but against a battle savvy opponent, she'd be in trouble the longer the battle went on

i don't hate roxanne, in fact she was my favorite of the resurrected 3...there's no question she had the power of an abyssal one, cassandra did have to wait til she unarmed herself to go in for the kill...but she had no ability that would have given her an edge over an awakened being of equal power
(and she & cassandra only landed blows on hysteria cause she wasn't paying attention)

and the based already covered what i had to say about beth

ok that make sense about Cassy, Roxy and hysteria

but i dont agree The term Abyssal one is just a name to describe a number one who has awakened...so technically by definition Rosemary and Beth are not Abyssal ones. but they do posses the power of those "called abyssal ones". and besides we dont know how much power beth got from the Destroyer. but i agree that she was probably the same if not a little weaker then her sister...only because she never trained in battle as an awakened so it was all new to her.

And yeah i love Roxanne to i am hoping that the bitch is still alive some how lol :3

FormerAbyssalone
May 07, 2012, 10:38 PM
After really thinking about and doing some rethinking, I believe Cassandra is the most powerful. Her abilities are the same as the AFs that defeated Isley. She would simply eat him as did the AFs. Just like the Afs she is good at dodging blows to her head and she is fast enough to catch and bite Isley's sword if it came down to that. Also unlike Luciela, cassandra has larger mouths and can bite off larger chunks of attackers.

Ryus
May 08, 2012, 01:56 PM
How come everyone believes Cassandra stronger than Roxanne?

Cassadra herself flatout implied Roxanne should have beaten her any day of the weak and twice on Tuesdays if she just didnt hold back due to being too cautious and wanting to show off later. It was a clear case of the weak winning only since the stronger one no longer had the heart of a true warrior (aka Teresa being defeated by Priscilla, Isley not conquring the world since he was happy but ended up giving the org time to build the AFs, etc...). This is a major theme in this series, so Roxanne was likely far stronger (awakened form wise) but lost since she thought she was smarter but didnt realize a fool like Cassandra had figured out her fatal flaw and exploited it, end of story. (The same argument could be made with Riful vs Alicia... Riful figured out the link and was about to counter until The Destroyer unleashed salvo number one)

The best thing to ask yourself with these two is if Roxanne came back a second time knowing Cassandras words about what lead to her downfall, would she still lose? I believe the answer is no, she'd go all out from the get go and curse and torture Cassadra's dying body for as long as she could.

By simple math Roxanne could have defeated Cassandra twice over if she went all out from the beginning and would have still had 2 shots left in reserve...

Goral
May 08, 2012, 02:13 PM
(...) Cassadra herself flatout implied Roxanne should have beaten her any day of the weak (...)
Not really.


If you had used the remaining three together, you would have still had a chance to defeat me...
She only said that Roxanne would have a chance. And seeing how pathetically she died and couldn't do a thing once she used up her projectiles I doubt she could do much more. Maybe if she had used everything she had at once she would have a chance but that would be a risky move since in the case of failure it would also leave her completely vulnerable and she didn't know exactly what Cassandra had in store and how much damage she could take. And seeing how little damage she did to Cassandra in the end and how quickly Roxanne was obliterated by her I tend to think that Cassandra was the one who was playing with Roxanne, not the other way around.

Ryus
May 08, 2012, 02:30 PM
Not really.


She only said that Roxanne would have a chance. And seeing how pathetically she died and couldn't do a thing once she used up her projectiles I doubt she could do much more. Maybe if she had used everything she had at once she would have a chance but that would be a risky move since in the case of failure it would also leave her completely vulnerable and she didn't know exactly what Cassandra had in store and how much damage she could take. And seeing how little damage she did to Cassandra in the end and how quickly Roxanne was obliterated by her I tend to think that Cassandra was the one who was playing with Roxanne, not the other way around.
First off their whole convo was banter where Cassadra was getting back at Roxanne and earlier setting her up to make her fatal mistake so take the chance with a grain of salt lolz, second the entire purpose of Cassandras final words to Roxanne was her lack of resolve killing her since she was both a coward and bitch. So it matters not if 3 in a salvo wasnt a 100% garanteed kill, cause by pure logic of whatvwe know one shot equaled easy evade and two equaled harder evade, and maybe three equaled chance of defeat or defeat... than 4 in a salvo likely would have been all but impossible to evade and what about 5 in a slavo... you know one more for good measure. Which still means Roxanne could have defeated Cassandra twice over (just without a remaindr of two assuming she didnt do 5)... plus what would stop Roxanne from using five in the first salvo just to be sure and save a three round salvo for after she was pinned to the ground bleeding her guts out? That way shed have a backup defence and be able to gloat over Cassadra later...

Next off as stated in my previous post I agree Cassadra was playing with Roxanne all along but more just so she could manipulate her into defeat than she just simply over powred her... if that was the case as you imply Cassadra's best revenge would have just to have been to pull a Teresa because you dont understand is why you are number two instead of the whole fatal flaw exploit that she did. Sorry but I think you're reading what you want to rather than what was really implied. That whole fight played out like a Greek tragedy not a power off, therefore it was Roxanne's own nature that defeated her and nothing else beyond Cassandra being bold enough to exploit it.

When you get down to it... this was Roxanne's fight to lose (meaning the odds where on her side)

Goral
May 08, 2012, 02:54 PM
Firstly, I don't see how Roxanne could even use her attack at a close distance (which gave Cassandra the advantage) and Roxanne was very slow as seen when Cassandra came to eat her and she couldn't do a thing (although it's strange how come she gained such distance over Cassie even though for most of the fight they were next to each other as shown in ch. 121 and 123, the most likely explanation is that it was Cassandra who did most of the work). Secondly, I don't see how she could concentrate everything she had on Cassandra, her attack was more like carpet bombing than precise strike. Also, as seen in chapter 121st, Cassie could dodge everything Roxanne threw at her and in chapter 124 (page 11) she couldn't hit such a fast target which very quickly changed it's position. And while Roxy had Cassie under her foot, seeing that Cassandra could eat Roxanne in a few bites I tend to think that she really was only playing with #2 and could defeat her any time she wanted but wanted to humiliate her, not insta-kill her (she wouldn't get her revenge if Roxanne didn't know what hit her).

FormerAbyssalone
May 08, 2012, 03:12 PM
No cassy is still stronger than Roxanne, now Roxanne may have had better sword skills when they were warriors but that doesn't matter now. As awakends its all about overal power and what abilities you have with your new form.

Ryus
May 08, 2012, 05:27 PM
Firstly, I don't see how Roxanne could even use her attack at a close distance (which gave Cassandra the advantage) and Roxanne was very slow as seen when Cassandra came to eat her and she couldn't do a thing (although it's strange how come she gained such distance over Cassie even though for most of the fight they were next to each other as shown in ch. 121 and 123, the most likely explanation is that it was Cassandra who did most of the work). Secondly, I don't see how she could concentrate everything she had on Cassandra, her attack was more like carpet bombing than precise strike. Also, as seen in chapter 121st, Cassie could dodge everything Roxanne threw at her and in chapter 124 (page 11) she couldn't hit such a fast target which very quickly changed it's position. And while Roxy had Cassie under her foot, seeing that Cassandra could eat Roxanne in a few bites I tend to think that she really was only playing with #2 and could defeat her any time she wanted but wanted to humiliate her, not insta-kill her (she wouldn't get her revenge if Roxanne didn't know what hit her).

*Sorry for long reply rl prevented me from even reading your reply for over an hour

Firstly I'd like to point out ch 124 page 14 where Roxanne used her tentacles instead of as projectiles launchers but as a cat of ninetails whip, attacking the nearby ground to keep Cassandra at bay. Lets face it Goral, if Roxanne wasn't able to hold off Cassandra as she clearly did in close range the fight would have ended long ago. So your who argument about lack of close range attack ability is misleading, since you ignored the other application of Roxanne's whips.

As to your argument about why Roxanne didn't counterattack once she was pinned, used up all her rods, and was half eaten by Cassandra already (and surrounded by her heads) I'd like to point out Isley mysteriously not trying to roll and squash the AFs on him simply by his greater mass too. Simply put she was already dead and knew no matter what she did it was pointless and wouldn't harm her opponent at that point just as Isley was. Plus Yagi was limited on how many pages he had and had a lot he needed to do, so simply put he just killed her quickly after what he wanted to say was said yet you too it as divine proof of Cassandra's power.

This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne. You where so quick to point out her lack of close range attacks and her lame death yet you missed the truly vital bit where neither was really true. Simply the fighting wasn't focused on Cassandra and Roxanne but more a quick fight and resolution to there characters and how Miria could exploit it. It is simple Cassandra failed to exploit any direct opening in Roxanne's attacks and defenses, so instead she used her fatal flaw make her oblivious to Cassandra setting her up for a Rope-a-dope. Cassandra was never able to beat Roxanne's overwhelming offensive abilities and her ability to shred her in close range with 8 whips, so instead she taunts and near misses to make Roxanne think she had the upper hand (which she did) however like in Muhammad Ali's 1974 Rumble in the Jungle match against George Foreman she let the stronger fighter who exploited all their power quickly do just that until she was drained of power, rods to attack with, then half way ate her so she could easily move in have the final words then eat the bitch.

Roxanne was defeated by a strategy that would only work once, if Roxanne escaped and faced that same situation again she likely would have been much harder to defeat... and as implied likely would have won.

Finally ch 124 page 16 Cassandra was laying prone and on the ground defeated under Roxanne's feet... yet clearly she some how escaped. So I ask you if Cassandra was as strong as you imply and Roxanne lacked close range abilities then how the fuck come that wasn't exactly what Cassandra was waiting for and how come she just didn't eat the whips off that "slow" Roxanne right then and there? Yet even after the escape Roxanne didn't just go OMG you overpowered me... therefore logically I'm weaker and I won't be so cocky later... It is simple, Roxanne had won but talked too long and Cassandra then realized Roxanne's nature of both wanting something held in reserve and the desire to gloat over her beaten opponent. This is where she got the idea from and Cassandra did escape but Roxanne believed it was from her Cassandra having a pointless second wind and her just not finishing her off then and there (think Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in Empire where Luke is pinned down at lightsaber point but when Darth Vader starts blabbing about why Luke should join the DS brings up Obiwan's death Luke gains a weak second wind and swats the saber away and get back up, in short Roxanne (Vader) knew she was stronger but in this case Cassandra (Luke) figured out a fatal flaw and went for it rather than how Vader vs Luke played out).

You're explanation literally requires plot holes in several places and/or Cassandra to be beyond typical AO power (or Roxanne under it... but neither was implied the case so we can rule this out). So when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


It is impossible for Roxanne to still have acted how she did after having defeated Cassandra, unless Cassandra was actually defeated and got away due to Roxanne giving her an opportunity to escape (either on purpose or a seemingly desperate escape).
It is impossible for Cassandra to have been captured by Roxanne like she was when Roxanne unexpectedly unleashed the first of two of her two salvo attacks she did (ch 124 p 5 shot 1, ch 124 p 6 shot 2, ch 124 p 11 shot 3, ch 124 p shots 4 and 5 (resulting in Cassandra's capture), ch 125 p 2-3 shots 6 and 7, ch 125 p 10 shot 8 (final)) unless she was taken by surprise and unable to escape as a result of unleashing more power or dodging ability. Thus proving she would have really had a problem if Roxanne unleashed 3 or more shots in a single salvo, since dodging two while she was able to do it clearly pushed her to her limit and her entire plan (as she stated to Roxanne was that she wouldn't fire three shots).


Therefore the only possibility remaining is that Cassandra's ability to dodge Roxanne's rods was limited to reliably dodging about 2 per salvo as stated... surviving a salvo of 3 would be at least 50/50 and surviving a salvo of 4 would have been neigh impossible. What was stated was in fact reality and you are reading too much into it. Yes, Cassandra could have maybe survived a salvo of 3 but doing so uninjured would have been very very hard and would really come down to if Roxanne released it at the opportune moment or not. So even if she did survive who is to say she wouldn't have been wounded (thus possibly reducing her ability to dodge or maybe even made her unable to dodge at all) and from there Roxanne could have exploited her injury and defeated her. If even if it was for a few moments, if Roxanne really wanted too she could win then and there just as she could have won at ch 124 page 16 when she caught Cassandra by surprise with a two round salvo.

You are right Roxanne just carpet bombed an area but so what... Cassandra can only move so fast and dodge so much, if Roxanne was to cover a wide enough area with enough shots then no matter what Cassandra would get hit... after all her ability to dodge was hindered by her size since at the end of the day no matter where she bent it she was pretty big and she had no yoki precog abilities so we can't give her the benefit of the doubt. Both Cassandra and Roxanne agreed dodging 3 attacks would have been the likely chance when the fight would have got "interesting". So I think we can take both of them at there word (both just bantered from there own I'm going to win pov but both agreed 3 was the magic number)... however mathematically Roxanne had 8 shots and when it comes down to a poweroff thread like this Roxanne was capable of likely killing Cassandra twice over. Lets face it nothing stopped Roxanne from firing a salvo at the downed Cassandra other than her choosing to step on her... she could have won with only 2 rounds in the salvo due to the element of surprise, only Roxanne's fatal flaws of Vanity and Pride caused her from defeating Cassandra several times over and Cassandra herself told Roxanne that is why she defeated her too. Roxanne was too concerned with either playing it safe or a desire to capture/wound Cassandra so she could gloat over her before she finished her off.

It is very clear cut Roxanne was stronger than Cassandra. She lost due to her own tragic flaw and yes at the end Cassandra did use that against her. However the question here is power ranking in which case Roxanne was stronger, not who had the best mind of a warrior and does that counter the balance of power. In ranking, based solely on power Roxanne was more powerful and would have defeated Cassandra 9 out of every 10 fights.

---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 PM ----------


No cassy is still stronger than Roxanne, now Roxanne may have had better sword skills when they were warriors but that doesn't matter now. As awakends its all about overal power and what abilities you have with your new form.

I dare you to actually try to prove Cassy's powers where stronger. Cassy's own words imply otherwise


3 = maybe

8 = overkill :derp

FormerAbyssalone
May 08, 2012, 05:34 PM
that being said who knows how many heads she could form, yeah we saw 3 but who knows really?

Ryus
May 08, 2012, 05:38 PM
that being said who knows how many heads she could form, yeah we saw 3 but who knows really?

Those "heads" where more mouths... we all knew the tiny one was her humanity and real head.

BTW recall ch 124 page 16 when Roxanne stepped on it and could have squashed her at any moment but choose to blab instead. :teehee

God Eye Galatea
May 08, 2012, 07:38 PM
Those "heads" where more mouths... we all knew the tiny one was her humanity and real head.

BTW recall ch 124 page 16 when Roxanne stepped on it and could have squashed her at any moment but choose to blab instead. :teehee

Well Ryus, we can't really be sure that the "tiny one" head on the human body between the awakened boobs are actually Cassandra's real body. For all we know, Cassandra can be like Agatha, she may be actually moving her vital organs around the huge awakened body of hers. If you recall, before Roxanne stepped on her tiny head, Cassandra's tiny head was damaged already, left eye portion of her head was missing. If it was really her real body, then it would have been really severe damage, but yet she was regenerated only a few pages later.

I'm not going to argue with you about Cassandra and Roxanne since you already have made up your mind already. Like you said "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne." lol
However, from what I read, Cassandra is indeed stronger than Roxanne!:3c

Ryus
May 08, 2012, 10:47 PM
Well Ryus, we can't really be sure that the "tiny one" head on the human body between the awakened boobs are actually Cassandra's real body. For all we know, Cassandra can be like Agatha, she may be actually moving her vital organs around the huge awakened body of hers. If you recall, before Roxanne stepped on her tiny head, Cassandra's tiny head was damaged already, left eye portion of her head was missing. If it was really her real body, then it would have been really severe damage, but yet she was regenerated only a few pages later.

At the end of the day even Agatha and Riful's human head was their real head. All one had to do was damage them enough for the "real" head to stop moving and end up in a visible location.

However as whether or not that head was the real one it is a game of semantics and not really relevant (after all even Deneve got hit in her real head so we know that the head injury that Cassandra's head got was very survivable, so we both could play that game... plus we know the tentacle weren't the real head since they kept getting cut off or stabbed), however I'm going to go out on a limb and say due to no single fake human sized head in the series yet talking that it was the real head. Plus the whole body design of pure AB body for one part and small looking but vulnerable human body and head sticking out was a rip of Ophelia that it might was well have been a massive clue from Yagi that is was the real head. Not every AB can do that after all.


I'm not going to argue with you about Cassandra and Roxanne since you already have made up your mind already. Like you said "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne." lol
However, from what I read, Cassandra is indeed stronger than Roxanne!:3c

I demote your user name to Galatea, you are no God Eye. :derp Cute rebuttal but it had no substance beyond sounding cute. I mean really all you really said was, your just like everyone else seeing what you wanna see but I know my opinion is correct [victory face], but since that wasn't a real argument it just makes you sound like Helen but without it being funny. :errr

For the record I haven't "made up my mind". Let me clarify my history in this debate since I'm from AS (mostly) and I doubt you read my posts on AS. I'll be kind from here on and simply clarify that on AS I, for a long time, debated Cassandra would end up being the strongest and or was (hell for a while I debated she'd end up being the new almost Teresa level character but she just failed to deliver time and again). My read of the situation is based on facts found in the manga and subject to change as more info is released, as Cassandra slowly became a flipping all over the place in terms of her power I changed my read on the situation with her power almost every chapter. By the end of her fight I just viewed it as I do now. I'm willing to debate my thesis, yet so far no one on any forum has been able to disprove it or provide me with a better thesis (mostly no one has bothered to try and like you just "substituted my reality for their own" and acted like they where so cleaver after that... *sigh).

However let me also supply a post I made on animesuki about a common mistake I believe people make for Roxanne's motivation for attacking Cassandra when they where both warriors. It wasn't that solely that she was a coward as many assume.


Cowardism... fear of fighting Cassandra 1 vs 1... I think you totally misunderstand just how evil Roxanne is and her motives. It wasn't fear that caused her to do this, it was her vindictive nature.

I believe that Roxanne's reasoning for setting the stage up so Cassandra would fight her in front of all the other warriors, was to humiliate her then let them reject her by joining her side against Cassandra. She wasn't scare of attacking her at all... what she wanted to mess with her head as much as possible is what it boiled down to.

Look, Cassandra viewed her move as disgusting and was ashamed of the technique, so Roxanne attacked that aspect of her personality. First she removed the only warrior whom had accepted her and her technique, this scoring the double victory of being the trigger for Cassandra to attack everyone to get to her. Then Roxanne set up a situation back at org HQ where Cassandra would be forced to use the technique she was ashamed of in front of everyone in order to totally humiliate her by making her reveal her vial technique before she killed her. That is why Roxanne personally antagonized her about #35 enjoying her horrible death and then was shouting how odd and ungraceful the move was. Both to point out to Cassandra what she had just down, whom she revealed the technique too, and to drive the warriors into a frenzy to attack her. However since Cassandra's greatest fear was rejection, after Roxanne stopped her movements she let the other warriors finish her off slowly and painfully just to add further insult to injury. That way she'd feel utterly rejected by her fellow warriors at the end, deprived of vengeance, and ashamed of harming her fellow warrior all at once... while slowly dying over several hours in agony.

Roxanne was aiming to torment Cassandra and then kill her once done, not protect herself by hiding behind other warriors. Roxanne is more twisted than you realize... and totally evil and beyond redemption. She truly is a villain you love to hate... well assuming you aren't messed up like me anyhow , then you cheer her on wanting to see what other conflict she'll add to the plot before she dies.

Think of it like this, Roxanne is that mean & vindictive girl at school but with endless power, plenty of brains, and nothing else to do besides attacking your very being then killing you once she's done. She may have been a coward in the past and still maybe but in that moment cowardism wasn't her [sole] motivation. At best she liked the idea of watching more than doing in this case and at worst she considered the protection a bonus to her plan... but her motivation was to torment poor Cassandra [since she truly hated her], nothing else.

This was further evidenced by Roxanne charging the awakened Cassandra all by herself... she wasn't a bloody coward though she was a bit cautious by nature, and there is a difference there.

A coward would have brought Miria into her fight against Cassandra or tried to get Hysteria involved too so she could flee. Yet Roxanne took her on head by herself without a second thought and was laughing like a psycho about it, her hatred of Cassandra outweighed any self preservation instinct she had. Roxanne's nature was love and hate, both to insane levels and little else. Yes, she was a weak warrior in the past clinging to stronger warriors to survive but like Deneve she is was no longer that person by the time we got to know her.

Most argue Roxanne was weaker since she didn't kill Cassandra by herself and assume it was since she was weaker and scared of her (yet we have plenty of examples to counter both assumptions both there and by her later actions in the series). Or because she was defeated so easily in the end and you read my read on that above (Cassandra herself said Roxanne lost due to her nature not her power). Sorry but both are likely untrue, do you have something else to add here or where you just trying to be witty and kneejerkingly reacting to an opinion you disagreed with? I supported my argument fully and why I believe "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne."

Oh btw, you took that quote out of context since it showed someone only evidencing the ranged rod attack failing upclose but ignored/overlooked the short ranged whip like attack holding Cassandra off 2 pages later... yet concluding Roxanne then had a disadvantage at close ranges. Which is akin to arguing since Isley could shoot arrows he logically was a weak close ranged fighter and failing to mention his arms ability to become a sword, lance, or axe. Good job at a comical strawman argument though :mono (:teehee)

God Eye Galatea
May 09, 2012, 10:25 AM
For the record I haven't "made up my mind". Let me clarify my history in this debate since I'm from AS (mostly) and I doubt you read my posts on AS. I'll be kind from here on and simply clarify that on AS I, for a long time, debated Cassandra would end up being the strongest and or was (hell for a while I debated she'd end up being the new almost Teresa level character but she just failed to deliver time and again). My read of the situation is based on facts found in the manga and subject to change as more info is released, as Cassandra slowly became a flipping all over the place in terms of her power I changed my read on the situation with her power almost every chapter. By the end of her fight I just viewed it as I do now. I'm willing to debate my thesis, yet so far no one on any forum has been able to disprove it or provide me with a better thesis (mostly no one has bothered to try and like you just "substituted my reality for their own" and acted like they where so cleaver after that... *sigh).

However let me also supply a post I made on animesuki about a common mistake I believe people make for Roxanne's motivation for attacking Cassandra when they where both warriors. It wasn't that solely that she was a coward as many assume.



This was further evidenced by Roxanne charging the awakened Cassandra all by herself... she wasn't a bloody coward though she was a bit cautious by nature, and there is a difference there.

A coward would have brought Miria into her fight against Cassandra or tried to get Hysteria involved too so she could flee. Yet Roxanne took her on head by herself without a second thought and was laughing like a psycho about it, her hatred of Cassandra outweighed any self preservation instinct she had. Roxanne's nature was love and hate, both to insane levels and little else. Yes, she was a weak warrior in the past clinging to stronger warriors to survive but like Deneve she is was no longer that person by the time we got to know her.

Most argue Roxanne was weaker since she didn't kill Cassandra by herself and assume it was since she was weaker and scared of her (yet we have plenty of examples to counter both assumptions both there and by her later actions in the series). Or because she was defeated so easily in the end and you read my read on that above (Cassandra herself said Roxanne lost due to her nature not her power). Sorry but both are likely untrue, do you have something else to add here or where you just trying to be witty and kneejerkingly reacting to an opinion you disagreed with? I supported my argument fully and why I believe "This is a perfect example of what I meant about people just reading what they want to with Cassandra vs Roxanne."

Oh btw, you took that quote out of context since it showed someone only evidencing the ranged rod attack failing upclose but ignored/overlooked the short ranged whip like attack holding Cassandra off 2 pages later... yet concluding Roxanne then had a disadvantage at close ranges. Which is akin to arguing since Isley could shoot arrows he logically was a weak close ranged fighter and failing to mention his arms ability to become a sword, lance, or axe. Good job at a comical strawman argument though :mono (:teehee)

Sigh... you really wanna go there.. :-_- fine then, but it's good to know you didn't make up your mind already...

Regarding Claymore Cassandra and Roxanne, I didn't think she is motivated by cowardly intention, but her actions to Cassandra could be seen as cowardly tho (Having her friend tortured and killed, and setup for Cassandra's death). I always thought that Cassandra rocked Roxanne's mental world upside down. Roxanne being the Love and Hate person that she is have always (from what we read )"love" a technique first instead of that the person. For instance, Roxanne didn't go love at first sight with Uranus or Neideen, but rather when she seen their technique that she fell in love with them. After Roxanne acquired the technique, she would then "hate" the person and planned for their demise. However, in Cassandra's case since she hid her technique in secrecy, Roxanne was in "love" with Cassandra the person rather than her technique first (Ch 117 pg 13). When Roxanne finally seen the Dust Eater technique, she "hate" it before even acquiring it. I think that really messed up Roxanne's head big time, the many instances where she laughed like a psycho. In my opinion, I think consciously Roxanne hated the Dust Eater technique because it looked so weird and thus she wanted to believe that it is inferior to her. However, subconsciously I think Roxanne knew how powerful the Dust Eater technique really is. Thus, she planned for Cassandra's death in a way so everyone would be present, so she could exposed how weird and ugly Dust Eater technique (conscious motivation) and an insurance that she would sucessfully take out Cassandra and the hated Dust Eater technique (subconscious motivation). From the flashback, it looked like Cassandra was chopped up by other warriors and Roxanne in just minutes, but I beg to differ. From Dae, Cassandra took hours to die after getting cut up and Roxanne stated that she was the one who finished her off after she was all cut up. So I believed that Cassandra was actually Dust eating around the room for hours before Roxanne's Blade of Evil finished her off. Roxanne had the ability to hid her yoki from one target, so it is likely that she hid her presence from Cassandra and was running around the room as Cassandra was Dust Eating and other warriors wearing her out.

I think Claymore Roxanne still "love" Cassandra the person, but yet she still "hate" her Dust Eater technique, thus she laughed like a psycho and acted like psycho ex around awakened Cassandra. Awakened form of Cassandra, nude Cassandra (Roxann loves lol) and many heads representing the Dust Eater (Roxanne hates lol), Roxanne's mind was totally screwed by Cassandra's awaken forms as she laughed hysterically and charged at awakened Cassandra. :teehee

Ok now the awakened Cassandra and Roxanne part.

Have you consider the possibility that Cassandra was playing with Roxanne all along and she could have finish off Roxanne before Roxanne ran out of claws to fire? From what I read, Cassandra was enjoying messing with Roxanne and putting her in her place. I think Cassandra was giving Roxanne false hope that she has a chance to win against her, so she taunted her about how she would win if she dodge all her claws shootings. I believed that Cassandra allow Roxanne to use her techniques and so that she could then put Roxanne back in her place as a No.2. We can argue all day about how Roxanne could have or should have shoot more of her claws and etc. However, from what we seen in the awakened fight between Cassandra and Roxanne, Cassandra only fully utiliized the defenseness aspect of the Dust Eater which is evasiveness. The true offensive aspect of the Dust Eater is quick limbs removal, if Cassandra truly utilize the offenseness of the Dust Eater, Roxanne legs would have been long gone and after that her many arms would then be eaten as well. Considering Roxanne's regenerative ability is lacking in her awakened form, having her legs removed she would surely be crawling on the ground or keep standing with some of her arms. Cassandra would have surely Dust Eating her arms away quickly by then and Roxanne would be limbless on the ground and biting dust.

Ryus
May 09, 2012, 02:12 PM
Sigh... you really wanna go there.. :-_- fine then, but it's good to know you didn't make up your mind already...

I'll keep this shot and sweet, ok maybe not :derp


Regarding Claymore Cassandra and Roxanne, I didn't think she is motivated by cowardly intention, but her actions to Cassandra could be seen as cowardly tho (Having her friend tortured and killed, and setup for Cassandra's death). I always thought that Cassandra rocked Roxanne's mental world upside down. Roxanne being the Love and Hate person that she is have always (from what we read )"love" a technique first instead of that the person. For instance, Roxanne didn't go love at first sight with Uranus or Neideen, but rather when she seen their technique that she fell in love with them. After Roxanne acquired the technique, she would then "hate" the person and planned for their demise. However, in Cassandra's case since she hid her technique in secrecy, Roxanne was in "love" with Cassandra the person rather than her technique first (Ch 117 pg 13). When Roxanne finally seen the Dust Eater technique, she "hate" it before even acquiring it. I think that really messed up Roxanne's head big time, the many instances where she laughed like a psycho. In my opinion, I think consciously Roxanne hated the Dust Eater technique because it looked so weird and thus she wanted to believe that it is inferior to her. However, subconsciously I think Roxanne knew how powerful the Dust Eater technique really is. Thus, she planned for Cassandra's death in a way so everyone would be present, so she could exposed how weird and ugly Dust Eater technique (conscious motivation) and an insurance that she would sucessfully take out Cassandra and the hated Dust Eater technique (subconscious motivation). From the flashback, it looked like Cassandra was chopped up by other warriors and Roxanne in just minutes, but I beg to differ. From Dae, Cassandra took hours to die after getting cut up and Roxanne stated that she was the one who finished her off after she was all cut up. So I believed that Cassandra was actually Dust eating around the room for hours before Roxanne's Blade of Evil finished her off. Roxanne had the ability to hid her yoki from one target, so it is likely that she hid her presence from Cassandra and was running around the room as Cassandra was Dust Eating and other warriors wearing her out.

I get where you're coming from but I see a few flaws you need to hammer out, Roxanne also was with Elizabeth and saw her beautiful sword at the same time she saw Uranus yet she only fell for Uranus however we know that she fell for Elizabeth later and did indeed take her sword power too (still angry we never saw her use it or even know what it is beyond a name, but moving on...). So the when doesn't matter, this isn't a true confection but it does indicate Roxanne had a choice of what she fell in love with and had the ability to reject something and then change her mind about it later... so implying that Roxanne just flipped due to falling Cassandra in the wrong order just doesn't fit too well with what we know. It's more likely Roxanne was just reminded of past hates, she saw Cassandra's technique as dirty and desperate just like the dirty sword and choose to reject it for that reason. It didn't break her so much as remind her of her old self which she now hated, Finally Roxanne was already broken even before hand as evidenced her hatred cycle and lack of caring about Uranus and especially Neideen's death (there relationship was stated to be very close, and if the pillow talk with Cassy was true it could be true to in this relationship) plus I don't think I need to remind you all 3 of her previous love hate victims died on missions they shouldn't have, it's a big hint Roxanne killed them or at least set them up to die. So Roxanne was already broken, it just that once Cassandra was out of the way no one could challenge her so she didn't need to be a subtle about it and Cassandra was too easy to manipulate. Don't get me wrong I'm sure Roxanne was extra vindictive since Cassandra's powers where such a disappointment to her but she didn't break due to her cycle being broken since she was already a murdering backstabbing bitch, all that happened was she became more open about it (all serial killers eventually "up the game" it's the same thing here, nothing more nothing less).

Next off Dae's wording was quite clear "There are 126 different wounds all over her body and yet it still took several hours for her to die" if you combine this with Cassandra's own words of "While cutting many, and being cut by many, all I did was head for Roxanne. I was not the least bit concerned about evading my comrades' attacks. In return for cutting my comrades I was prepared to be cut too. I lost my right arm, I lost my left leg and had one eye gouged out. And yet I drew , was unbecoming of Roxanne.A sword style called the Blade of Evil. I lost my remaining limbs and was cut to pieces by the hands of many comrades that where present..."

Simply put Cassandra herself stated all she did was charge forward not caring about injury to herself, so she couldn't have taken an hour or more to do so. Next off she was just too good of a fighter to have left uninjured as many warriors that sliced her up in the end as where shown if she took more than a minute to get through them, she blasted though number 3, 5 and 9 like they where nothing in mere moments. The only way these two different quotes work together and don't conflict is if Cassandra charged forward was sliced up but about to close in on Roxanne when Roxanne stopped her movements and everyone else hacked her limb from limb, then left her to die once she was defenseless. This would also make perfect sense since as far as everyone else was concerned she was a traitor who unlike Miria didn't try to not maim anyone but only KO them where as Roxanne was hacking off limbs of offensive warriors, not holding back, and using a move that had unnatural movements (combine that with rumors of Cassandra wanting to start an insurrection and people would start wondering if she had awakened in secret or gone mad)

Anyways I'd just like to point out Roxanne's usage of the Blade of Evil, I see its usage as a message to Cassandra "That move is dirt and so are you", Roxanne's hating of Cassandra was mostly due to Roxanne viewing her as unbecoming of a number one due to having to rely on such a desperate technique (fill in your own beliefs here if the motivation behind it was because Roxanne went extra insane due to it reminding her of her past and being a weakling or just because she despised weakness and hated Cassandra since she looked up to her thinking she wasn't and disappointed her, or whatever)


I think Claymore Roxanne still "love" Cassandra the person, but yet she still "hate" her Dust Eater technique, thus she laughed like a psycho and acted like psycho ex around awakened Cassandra. Awakened form of Cassandra, nude Cassandra (Roxann loves lol) and many heads representing the Dust Eater (Roxanne hates lol), Roxanne's mind was totally screwed by Cassandra's awaken forms as she laughed hysterically and charged at awakened Cassandra. :teehee

I view it more as Roxanne wanting to destroy an aspect of her past... relying on a very strong but dirty technique to make up for a weakness. Though like you I suspect part of her was close to Cassandra still since only those you care about greatly can effect you that much.


Ok now the awakened Cassandra and Roxanne part.

Have you consider the possibility that Cassandra was playing with Roxanne all along and she could have finish off Roxanne before Roxanne ran out of claws to fire? From what I read, Cassandra was enjoying messing with Roxanne and putting her in her place. I think Cassandra was giving Roxanne false hope that she has a chance to win against her, so she taunted her about how she would win if she dodge all her claws shootings. I believed that Cassandra allow Roxanne to use her techniques and so that she could then put Roxanne back in her place as a No.2. We can argue all day about how Roxanne could have or should have shoot more of her claws and etc. However, from what we seen in the awakened fight between Cassandra and Roxanne, Cassandra only fully utiliized the defenseness aspect of the Dust Eater which is evasiveness. The true offensive aspect of the Dust Eater is quick limbs removal, if Cassandra truly utilize the offenseness of the Dust Eater, Roxanne legs would have been long gone and after that her many arms would then be eaten as well. Considering Roxanne's regenerative ability is lacking in her awakened form, having her legs removed she would surely be crawling on the ground or keep standing with some of her arms. Cassandra would have surely Dust Eating her arms away quickly by then and Roxanne would be limbless on the ground and biting dust.

I agree that took place during the last 3 shots phase of the fight (note: the taunting happened at this point not before, so I agree with that logic) and when Cassy was awakened but Roxanne not. However Cassy's temporary defeat after shots 4 and 5 where double shoted disprove it took place elsewhere in the fight (I even went a step further and said it was due to roxanne's gloating here rather then finishing Cassy off that Cassy was able to figure out the taunting would work and Roxanne would only fire 2 shots not 3), please reread my last post for the list of contradictions in the plot to this theory for Cassy manipulating Roxanne between shots 1-5. Cassy was honestly defeated there and wasn't like Teresa who could act defeated but the powerup and everything would be fine again. It was a fairly even fight that potentially Roxanne could have won twice over due to her insane attack powers (but with limited shots). Cassy herself said Roxanne lost due to her tragic flaw not lack of ability to win.

Once again I must remind you this is a power off thread not a who defeated who thread. What worked once won't always work again and in a power off thread it must work the majority of the time to have any substance. It's like saying since Miria beat Hysteria once she could do it again, yeah well maybe but 9 out of 10 times I'd wager not.

As to your reference to Cassy's ability at quick limb removal I'd say Roxanne countered that ability very well until she wasted all her shots being a dumbass. Cassy landed only 2 hits before Roxanne started firing and one of those was when Roxanne was chasing the twins, Roxanne must have scored dozens more and defeated Cassy but started the cliched villain mistake of monologuing rather than finishing off Cassandra then and there she gave Cassandra the vital clue of how to defeat her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7O7sBg-iJc#t=1m47s

Though maybe this scene is more closer to what happened with Roxanne vs Cassandra, minus the whole bomb thing lolz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBIMQxsJb_s

Until you can explain how come one who was playing around with someone else could get trapped and defeated, your argument holds little weight. Yes she messed around with her, but not for the entire fight and she didn't win from power or by making Roxanne dance to her beat the entire fight but from exploiting her opponents very nature which was revealed after she was honestly defeated. I get where you are coming from but I feel you are overlooking many important points in the plot, points which I addressed earlier yet you didn't even bring up here. I do have an open mind but as I told you I am clinging to my current pov since I see no other way to explain the events I'm seeing in the plot. If you can explain them better then great I may change my tune but if you don't I must ask if it's because you can't. I mean no offense with that but it simple it the way it is.

God Eye Galatea
May 09, 2012, 10:02 PM
Oh my gosh... must you write an essay Ryus? :gwah


I'll keep this shot and sweet, ok maybe not :derp


I get where you're coming from but I see a few flaws you need to hammer out, Roxanne also was with Elizabeth and saw her beautiful sword at the same time she saw Uranus yet she only fell for Uranus however we know that she fell for Elizabeth later and did indeed take her sword power too (still angry we never saw her use it or even know what it is beyond a name, but moving on...). So the when doesn't matter, this isn't a true confection but it does indicate Roxanne had a choice of what she fell in love with and had the ability to reject something and then change her mind about it later... so implying that Roxanne just flipped due to falling Cassandra in the wrong order just doesn't fit too well with what we know. It's more likely Roxanne was just reminded of past hates, she saw Cassandra's technique as dirty and desperate just like the dirty sword and choose to reject it for that reason. It didn't break her so much as remind her of her old self which she now hated, Finally Roxanne was already broken even before hand as evidenced her hatred cycle and lack of caring about Uranus and especially Neideen's death (there relationship was stated to be very close, and if the pillow talk with Cassy was true it could be true to in this relationship) plus I don't think I need to remind you all 3 of her previous love hate victims died on missions they shouldn't have, it's a big hint Roxanne killed them or at least set them up to die. So Roxanne was already broken, it just that once Cassandra was out of the way no one could challenge her so she didn't need to be a subtle about it and Cassandra was too easy to manipulate. Don't get me wrong I'm sure Roxanne was extra vindictive since Cassandra's powers where such a disappointment to her but she didn't break due to her cycle being broken since she was already a murdering backstabbing bitch, all that happened was she became more open about it (all serial killers eventually "up the game" it's the same thing here, nothing more nothing less).


It's your assumption that Elizabeth had actually use her beautiful sword technique during that hunt. The fact is that single digit warriors can finished off awakened hunt without ever using their special technique. Considering that awakened hunt have 2 No.30's warriors, it's my assumption that awaken being couldn't pose enough threat for Elizabeth to use her special beautiful technique. Roxanne could have seen Elizabeth's technique later on. Whether or not Elizabeth has used her technique during that particular hunt is up to debate.

I'm not sure if you really understand my points on how Cassandra screwed up Roxanne's already twisted mind. Moreover, I am not sure where you get Roxanne hated her past self from.


Next off Dae's wording was quite clear "There are 126 different wounds all over her body and yet it still took several hours for her to die" if you combine this with Cassandra's own words of "While cutting many, and being cut by many, all I did was head for Roxanne. I was not the least bit concerned about evading my comrades' attacks. In return for cutting my comrades I was prepared to be cut too. I lost my right arm, I lost my left leg and had one eye gouged out. And yet I drew , was unbecoming of Roxanne.A sword style called the Blade of Evil. I lost my remaining limbs and was cut to pieces by the hands of many comrades that where present..."

Simply put Cassandra herself stated all she did was charge forward not caring about injury to herself, so she couldn't have taken an hour or more to do so. Next off she was just too good of a fighter to have left uninjured as many warriors that sliced her up in the end as where shown if she took more than a minute to get through them, she blasted though number 3, 5 and 9 like they where nothing in mere moments. The only way these two different quotes work together and don't conflict is if Cassandra charged forward was sliced up but about to close in on Roxanne when Roxanne stopped her movements and everyone else hacked her limb from limb, then left her to die once she was defenseless. This would also make perfect sense since as far as everyone else was concerned she was a traitor who unlike Miria didn't try to not maim anyone but only KO them where as Roxanne was hacking off limbs of offensive warriors, not holding back, and using a move that had unnatural movements (combine that with rumors of Cassandra wanting to start an insurrection and people would start wondering if she had awakened in secret or gone mad).


But it's hard to imagine someone with that many wounds laying around for hours not dead and not awakening. Resurrected Cassandra awakened once her wounds were reopened. So it's really up for debate.


Anyways I'd just like to point out Roxanne's usage of the Blade of Evil, I see its usage as a message to Cassandra "That move is dirt and so are you", Roxanne's hating of Cassandra was mostly due to Roxanne viewing her as unbecoming of a number one due to having to rely on such a desperate technique (fill in your own beliefs here if the motivation behind it was because Roxanne went extra insane due to it reminding her of her past and being a weakling or just because she despised weakness and hated Cassandra since she looked up to her thinking she wasn't and disappointed her, or whatever).

No, I didn't believe Roxanne went extra insane because Cassandra reminded of her past and being a weakling. If she really hated her past self and the dirty technique and such, then she wouldn't have incorporated "Blade of Evil" in her awakened form, her claws shooting looks just like "Blade of Evil." Moreover, I think it is safe to assume that her whip attack is actaully the beautiful technique that she mentioned. If she really hated herself, then her awakened form would have reflected of her own powers instead. I think Roxanne went extra insane because the existence of Cassandra and her digusting Dust Eater technique disturb her already twisted mind. How I see it, is that Roxanne's twisted mind of love and hate, have always been "love" the technique, acquired the technique, then "hate" the original user and get rid of them (plan their demise or kill them). However, with Cassandra since she hid her technique in secrecy, Roxanne actually "love" Cassandra first, she tried to acquired Cassandra but she always kept her distance and wouldn't go to awaken hunt with her, when Roxanne finally saw the Dust Eater she "hate" it. Then what we have here, Roxanne "love" Cassandra, but failed to acquire her or her technique, and she hates her technique deeply. You can read what I wrote earlier on what I think Roxanne consciously and subconsciously felt about Cassandra and the Dust Eater.


I agree that took place during the last 3 shots phase of the fight (note: the taunting happened at this point not before, so I agree with that logic) and when Cassy was awakened but Roxanne not. However Cassy's temporary defeat after shots 4 and 5 where double shoted disprove it took place elsewhere in the fight (I even went a step further and said it was due to roxanne's gloating here rather then finishing Cassy off that Cassy was able to figure out the taunting would work and Roxanne would only fire 2 shots not 3), please reread my last post for the list of contradictions in the plot to this theory for Cassy manipulating Roxanne between shots 1-5. Cassy was honestly defeated there and wasn't like Teresa who could act defeated but the powerup and everything would be fine again. It was a fairly even fight that potentially Roxanne could have won twice over due to her insane attack powers (but with limited shots). Cassy herself said Roxanne lost due to her tragic flaw not lack of ability to win.

Cassandra evaded Roxanne's whip attacks in the beginning of the fight as well. If the fight was really that evenly match and Roxanne could have win twice over, then how do you explain why Cassandra is good as new after the fight. If Roxanne was really as powerful and strong as you claim, then the Cassandra should have been severely damaged after the fight. After Luciella and Isley fought, they were both exhausted, that how I see as a evenly match fight.

What you are implying is that if Roxanne shot more of her claws then Cassandra would have been easily defeated. I agree somewhat that if Roxanne have shoot more of claws then she would have a chance on winning against Cassandra, but it doesn't mean that even if Roxanne shoot more claws she would definitely beat Cassandra.


Once again I must remind you this is a power off thread not a who defeated who thread. What worked once won't always work again and in a power off thread it must work the majority of the time to have any substance. It's like saying since Miria beat Hysteria once she could do it again, yeah well maybe but 9 out of 10 times I'd wager not.

Exactly, I am discussing Cassandra's power, the Dust Eater defensive power and offensive power comparing to Roxanne's. If I am going off on a who defeated who argument, it would have been simple to say Cassandra defeated Roxanne, end of story, but I am not.


As to your reference to Cassy's ability at quick limb removal I'd say Roxanne countered that ability very well until she wasted all her shots being a dumbass. Cassy landed only 2 hits before Roxanne started firing and one of those was when Roxanne was chasing the twins, Roxanne must have scored dozens more and defeated Cassy but started the cliched villain mistake of monologuing rather than finishing off Cassandra then and there she gave Cassandra the vital clue of how to defeat her.


Roxanne countered Cassandra's evasiveness a bit with her claws shooting, I'll give her that. But her whip attacks didn't even touch Cassandra. If Cassandra truly utilitze her offensive aspect of the Dust Eater, Roxanne limbs would have been long gone. Even using your logic, Cassandra only landed 2 hits, if Cassandra truly utilize the offensiveness of the Dust Eater, then on her second hit she would have aim at Roxanne's leg instead of her hair. Again, using your logic, Cassandra could have actually scored more hits on Roxanne than it was actually shown. :-_- And you didn't address how Roxanne would counter Cassandra if she truly utilize her offensive aspect of the Dust Eater that aim at removing her limbs.

If you are talking about the part where Roxanne stepped on Cassandra, using your logic Roxanne could have finished off Cassandra then and there, but with the same logic Cassandra could have use her Dust Eater to remove Roxanne's legs, then her arms and Roxanne would have been doom.


Until you can explain how come one who was playing around with someone else could get trapped and defeated, your argument holds little weight. Yes she messed around with her, but not for the entire fight and she didn't win from power or by making Roxanne dance to her beat the entire fight but from exploiting her opponents very nature which was revealed after she was honestly defeated. I get where you are coming from but I feel you are overlooking many important points in the plot, points which I addressed earlier yet you didn't even bring up here. I do have an open mind but as I told you I am clinging to my current pov since I see no other way to explain the events I'm seeing in the plot. If you can explain them better then great I may change my tune but if you don't I must ask if it's because you can't. I mean no offense with that but it simple it the way it is.

I'm afraid you are actually clinging to your current pov tighter than you thought and you are not as open minded as you think. You may be falling into the same trap of what you see other people are falling into as to read what you want to read. Your main points on Roxanne and Cassandra is that Roxanne could have shoot more claws and Cassandra would have been done, and when Roxanne stepped on Cassandra she could have finished her off. In addition, Cassandra only won because she exploited Roxanne's flaw tragic nature. I'm afraid you are actually overlooking Cassandra's powers in favor of Roxanne's. Yes, Roxanne's "Blade of Evil" shooting claws has strong cutting power. Can you really say for sure that if Roxanne launches more claws she would be beat Cassandra? If you take Cassandra's impressive regenerative power into consideration, even if Roxanne shoot all her claws at her, can you really say for sure that Cassandra can't regenerate from those attacks?
We can't be sure that Roxanne have actually trapped Cassandra and defeated her on the panels where Roxanne stepped on her. The fact is that the pose of Cassandra's awakened form look like it is laying there, and Roxanne standing and stepping on her does give a false appearance of defeat.:3c

From what we have seen:

Cassandra's Powers
-Regenerative Power (regenerated all wounds received from Roxanne)
-Evasiveness Dodging ability (can dodge whip attacks, evade moderate claws shooting)
-Dust Eater head limb removing attacks (didn't use it to remove Roxanne's limbs)
-Hard skin (ineffective against Roxanne's claws shooting)

vs

Roxanne's Powers
-Whip claws arms attacks (ineffective against Cassandra)
-Claws shooting attack (can somewhat hit Cassandra, cover large area but not really precise location)

Yes, Roxanne best bet and only chance in winning against Cassandra was her claws shooting attack. Yes, I strongly believe that Cassandra was playing with Roxanne. If Cassandra was serious, she would have aim for Roxanne's legs then arms from the start. If she did that, Roxanne would have little to no chance against her considering her bad regenerative power. Cassandra have plenty of chances in removing Roxanne's limbs, but she didn't. Roxanne's whip attacks was ineffective against her, she could have close in and remove a leg or two. Even when Roxanne stepped on her, she has the chance to remove her limbs. Like I said, it's the nature of the position that makes it looks like Roxanne defeated Cassandra. :teehee Keep in mind, Cassandra regenerated all the wounds she received from Roxanne quickly. Thus, I believe that she allowed Roxanne to use her attacks on her. Awakened Cassandra is a bad girl, she gave Roxanne the false hope that she could beat her, and then by letting Roxanne finsh all her attacks she then cruelly crushed that hope and finish her off.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

Oh I missed this before, have to address these.


First off their whole convo was banter where Cassadra was getting back at Roxanne and earlier setting her up to make her fatal mistake so take the chance with a grain of salt lolz, second the entire purpose of Cassandras final words to Roxanne was her lack of resolve killing her since she was both a coward and bitch. So it matters not if 3 in a salvo wasnt a 100% garanteed kill, cause by pure logic of whatvwe know one shot equaled easy evade and two equaled harder evade, and maybe three equaled chance of defeat or defeat... than 4 in a salvo likely would have been all but impossible to evade and what about 5 in a slavo... you know one more for good measure. Which still means Roxanne could have defeated Cassandra twice over (just without a remaindr of two assuming she didnt do 5)... plus what would stop Roxanne from using five in the first salvo just to be sure and save a three round salvo for after she was pinned to the ground bleeding her guts out? That way shed have a backup defence and be able to gloat over Cassadra later...

Cassandra stated that "If you had the remaining three properly, then you would still had a chance to defeat me." With "pure logic," how does a chance translate to most certainly defeat? Then 4 salvo would then equal to 100% defeat? For all we know, Cassandra could have implied a 5% chance or even 30% Roxanne could defeat her using three salvo. But, Ryus what you are implying is more like 90% to 95% with just using just three of her arms. I think you may have really falling into the trap of reading what you want you read. Like I said before, if you take Cassandra's regenerative power into consideration, even if Cassandra can't evade all of Roxanne's claws, would she really be unable to regenerate? Do you really think with just her claws shooting ability, Roxanne can beat Cassandra 9 out of 10 time?


Next off as stated in my previous post I agree Cassadra was playing with Roxanne all along but more just so she could manipulate her into defeat than she just simply over powred her... if that was the case as you imply Cassadra's best revenge would have just to have been to pull a Teresa because you dont understand is why you are number two instead of the whole fatal flaw exploit that she did. Sorry but I think you're reading what you want to rather than what was really implied. That whole fight played out like a Greek tragedy not a power off, therefore it was Roxanne's own nature that defeated her and nothing else beyond Cassandra being bold enough to exploit it.

When you get down to it... this was Roxanne's fight to lose (meaning the odds where on her side)

Cassandra was playing with her, she was giving Roxanne a dose of her own medicine, and she was beating Roxanne at her own game. I believe Cassandra could have overpower her if she wanted to, but she wanted to screw with Roxanne and put her in her place. If Cassandra really wanted to overpower Roxanne in the beginning, she would have truly and fully utilize her Dust Eater heads offensively in removing Roxanne's legs and then arms, but she didn't. I think the best revenge for Cassandra against Roxanne, is exactly what she did, beat her at what Roxanne was best at, twisted mind game, and then destroy her!:cheez
If how Cassandra finish off Roxanne is not "overpower" then I am not sure what is. Cassandra is good as new after her battle with Roxanne. If Roxanne was as powerful and could defeat Cassandra twice over as you believed, then Cassandra would have suffered severely after their battle even if she did win with your logic that she exploited Roxanne's flaw tragic nature.

Fermat
May 10, 2012, 03:25 AM
First, let it be known that most of what shall follow are purely speculative. Please, feel free to object, but please, do so in an insightful and constructive manner. I consider Alicia and Beth to be identical in all aspects, so what goes for Alicia will be the same for Beth. So let's see...

1) Isley vs Riful - 75/25 in Isley's favor. I'm convinced that Isley would be able to morph his arms into bladed weapons similar to Alicia's, which, as we know, is Riful's weakness. I also assume that Isley's speed is comparable to Alicia's, so in the end, this battle should be similar to Riful vs a bigger Alicia. Though the interference of the Destroyer led to some mishaps for Riful, it's quite clear that she was at a disadvantage against Alicia, as such, the hypothetical scenario between Isley and Riful would likely be similar. The big difference is Isley's size. A 10-m tall centaur is far easier to hit than a 2- or 3-m tall humanoid AO.

2) Isley vs Luciela - Isley

3) Isley vs Alicia - 50/50. This one can go either way. Both have ridiculous damage potential, and both are likely to be unable to defend against the other's offensive power. Alicia doesn't seem to have all that much defense and Alicia's blades are likely to be sharp enough to cut through any shield Isley can conjure. Again, Isley's size puts him at a disadvantage, but he has been shown to be far nimbler than he looks.

4) Isley vs Hysteria - 75/25 in Isley's favor. I know most will object to this, but this is what is special about Hysteria's case. Hysteria, when pitted against every other AO, will always have a chance of winning, however small, simply because of her speed. She is easily the fastest thing in the CLAYMORE universe and is very unlikely to be hit by anything, even Isley's homing arrows. However, her damage potential is laughable, considering she can only tear off small chunks with every attack. So in the end, it's a matter of 1) how large an opponent is, and 2) how the opponent fares in regeneration. The longer the battle rages on, the more likely Hysteria will begin to suffer fatigue, leading to a decrease in evasiveness, and as we have seen, given Hysteria's defense, one strong, clean hit is enough to finish her off.

5) Isley vs Roxanne - Isley. This is essentially another Isley vs Riful. However, Roxanne has a far smaller number of whips compared to Riful's strips, so her damage potential is inferior. Also, Roxanne's body isn't nearly as versatile as Riful's. As for her claws, I don't know. While Isley's size makes it difficult for him to evade such an attack type, Roxanne's claws don't seem to have enough destructive capacity to kill Isley outright, much less if he managed to conjure a pretty hefty shield with his arms before the attack goes off.

6) Isley vs Cassandra - Isley. While agile in Dust Eater mode, it would be quite easy for Isley to simply run out of range and fire volley after volley of arrows upon Cassandra. Cassandra has expressed that had Roxanne used enough of her claws, the latter may have had the chance of defeating her, and since Isley's arrows are a similar attack type, I'm guessing the statement holds true. Isley's projectiles have far greater destructive capacity than Roxanne's slim and tiny claws, but the most important thing is the arrows' homing nature. The question lies in whether Cassandra in Dust Eater mode is fast enough to evade such homing projectiles. Personally, I believe Cassandra would be able to evade a few, and would eventually get worn down later by the cumulative damage she receives. Also, Cassandra's head-tipped tentacles are easy targets for the arrows, thus reducing Cassandra's offensive output. They were easy enough targets for Roxanne's claws, much more with projectiles that could home in on the "necks."

7) Riful vs Luciela - 75/25 in Riful's favor. Luciela's damage potential seems to be limited to her mouth and claws, whereas Riful's is limited by the number of strips she has. True, Luciela may be able to instantaneously grow mouths in areas she knows would be attacked, but the question lies in whether she would be able to keep up given the sheer number of strips Riful can put out at any given time.

8) Riful vs Alicia - Alicia

9) Riful vs Hysteria - 50/50. Again, Riful's strips don't seem all that fast, so it's unlikely Hysteria would be hit at all. As such, Hysteria would simply have to whittle away at Riful's body. Now, Riful's body isn't as large as it seems since it's mostly hollow so she would be more manageable compared to someone like Isley. However, Riful herself is quite difficult to gnaw away at, considering she could disassemble into narrow strips.

10) Riful vs Roxanne - Riful. It would be easy enough for Riful to expend eight of her strips to keep Roxanne's whips at bay while using the rest to attack Roxanne. As for Roxanne's claws, Riful could easily disassemble into strips once Roxanne launches the attack. Since all the claws radiate from Roxanne, Riful could orient her strips so that the narrower side faces Roxanne, allowing for maximal evasion. Unfortunately for Roxanne, using multiple arms at the same time doesn't increase the density of blades, i.e. the number of blades raining upon a given area, it simply increases the attack radius (she says so herself in Scene 124). As such, using all eight arms at once would not increase the probability of hitting Riful.

11) Riful vs Cassandra - 75/25 in Riful's favor. While Cassandra is incredible agile in Dust Eater mode, she would still be hard-pressed if Riful used a significant number of strips at once. Who knows, if Riful used every single strip she could afford, she might even be able to slice at Cassandra's feet, rendering her unable to use the Dust Eater. Nevertheless, the speed of Cassandra's head-tipped tentacles isn't something to laugh about, and Cassandra would likely be able to consume a fair number of Riful's strips during the battle.

12) Luciela vs Alicia - Alicia. Alicia's size and speed would make her a difficult target to hit. Couple this with her ridiculous damage potential and Luciela is bound to be overwhelmed. Of course, there's the slim possibility that Luciela would be able to sprout a mouth near an attacking Alicia, but I'm guessing Alicia's reflexes are fast enough to shred that mouth to pieces even before it manages to snap shut and bite her.

13) Luciela vs Hysteria - 50/50. Similar to Alicia, except for the fact that Hysteria's offensive power is far lower but her agility is likely to be significantly higher. It's unlikely that Luciela would be able to predict where Hysteria would attack next given the latter's overwhelming speed, so the mouths would be ineffective. That is, of course, unless she decides to grow mouths on every single inch of her body. I doubt she has the capacity, though, since she battled Isley, who was as strong as they come, and didn't use such a technique. Again, some may argue that it's an unfair supposition but I think it's wise to limit ourselves in such a manner.

14) Luciela vs Roxanne - 75/25 in Luciela's favor. One of the rare fights Roxanne might actually win. I highly doubt Roxanne's whips are faster than Isley's arrows, so Luciela should be able to grow mouths and sever Roxanne's whips. As for the Roxanne's claws, Luciela's awakened form is quite large, so without a doubt, she'd get hit. I'm guessing they are about as fast as Isley's arrows, so again, the mouths should be able to swallow those relatively small blades easily enough. The question lies in whether Luciela can grow enough mouths to eat everything. If she doesn't, then Roxanne just might win. However, if she empties her arms and doesn't inflict enough damage to Luciela, then she's as good as dead.

15) Luciela vs Cassandra - Cassandra. An eater vs an eater. As to whose mouths shall emerge triumphant, I don't know. They're each as likely to gnaw the other out before the other has a chance to bite, so that aspect's a draw. Cassandra emerges triumphant, however, in everything else. Her Dust Eater was able to evade eight of Roxanne's whips at once, so evading the swipes from two arms and two tails +/- a head should be child's play.

16) Alicia vs Hysteria - 50/50. One with great speed and offensive power; the other, with even greater speed but far lower damage potential. This fight can go either way. It's unlikely that Alicia would be able to hit Hysteria, but if she does manage to get a hit in, Hysteria's minced meat. Being roughly the same size as her, however, Hysteria would be able to gnaw off chunks of Alicia and reduce her to nothing faster than any other AO.

17) Alicia vs Roxanne - Alicia. Being a small and nimble, Alicia should be able to evade and cut up Roxanne's whips with as much ease as she did Riful's, and considering Roxanne only has eight of these, well, you get the idea. As for the claws, Alicia has a small body, so the hit percentage is already low to begin with. Add to this Alicia's agility and she should be able to evade the rain of claws easily enough. Given Alicia's offensive power, it's also quite likely she could face one of those claws head on and shred it to pieces.

18) Alicia vs Cassandra - Alicia. Alicia should be able to cut up those head-tipped tentacles easily enough. As for the Dust Eater, well, it's quite hard to say, but I'm hypothesizing that she could catch Cassandra's feet with some effort, rendering her unable to execute the Dust Eater.

19) Hysteria vs Roxanne - Hysteria. One of the rare fights I'm guessing Hysteria can outright win. As with Alicia, Hysteria could easily evade anything Roxanne throws at her. Again, using several arms at once only increases Roxanne's attack radius but does not decrease the gaps between the blades, as such, using one armful of blades has the same efficacy against Hysteria as using all eight at once. Considering Roxanne's regenerative and defensive capabilities seem to be lackluster, Hysteria should be able to take her apart faster than she would, say, Isley, who is of similar size but with greater regenerative and defensive capabilities.

20) Hysteria vs Cassandra - 75/25 in Cassandra's favor. While Cassandra shouldn't be able to hit Hysteria, her defensive capabilities and regeneration seem to be very good. Likewise, her agility while using Dust Eater is nothing to laugh about. True, it may not be on par with Hysteria's speed, but it should be enough to get Hysteria to put a bit more effort than usual. This, added to the likelihood that the battle will be drawn out because of Cassandra's size, defense and regeneration, gives Cassandra the edge. As mentioned earlier, Hysteria may end up developing fatigue because of the length of the battle and end up getting hit.

21) Roxanne vs Cassandra - Cassandra

22) Everyone vs Rosemary - Everyone. Just 'cause Rosemary was so easily pwned. True, it was Teresa, but still...

So all-in-all, the rankings would be:

1-3) Isley/Alicia/Beth - each with 6 "points"
4) Riful - with 4.25 "points"
5-6) Hysteria/Cassandra - each with 4 "points"
7) Luciela - with 2.5 "points"
8) Roxanne - with 1.25 "points"
9) Rosemary - with 0 "point"

Surprisingly close to SutterCain's own ranking. If we choose to use a weighted system, wherein those who actually stand a chance to win against more powerful AOs (based on the above) would get a higher "score," (e.g. a certain win against Isley or Alicia would be awarded 6 points while a 50-50 chance would get 3 points, etc) then the ranking would be:

1-2) Alicia/Beth
3) Isley
4) Hysteria (Huh!?)
5) Riful
6) Cassandra
7) Luciela
8) Roxanne
9) Rosemary

I was surprised by what came out as well. Hysteria shot up despite her lackluster performance in the manga because of her hypothetical probability to win against even the "stronger" AOs because of her speed. Cassandra, surprisingly, ranked lower than her because her hypothetical wins were against the "weaker" AOs.

metalia
May 17, 2012, 11:56 AM
I voted Alicia because of her slice&chop technique :). But here is my top:

The (Old) "Unholy Trinity":

1. Isley
2. Riful
3. Luciela

The apparent "alliance" made by Riful and Luciela to kill Isley suggests they are weaker than him. Also I think Riful is the most inteligent of the three, so I gave her the nº2 despite having no proof of her being stronger than Luciela.

The (New) "Unholy Trinity":

1. Cassandra
2. Hysteria
3. Roxanne

To me Cassandra is clearly superior to the other two, this together with the fact that Roxanne is lower than shit, puts Hysteria in the nº2.

All 8 AOs in Ranking:

1. Alicia
2. Cassandra
3. Isley
4. Hysteria
5. Riful
6. Luciela
7. Roxanne
8. Rosmary

I put Rosmary at the nº8 because:
(a) I don't think she's stronger than the three old abysal ones (or maybe she is and Teresa can tear apart Isley, Riful and Luciela with a single blow :zomg).
(b) The Organization didn't chose to revive her nor mentioned her in the list of possible nº1 that could be cloned.

God Eye Galatea
May 17, 2012, 10:25 PM
Oh noes lol I didn't say anything about the original topic :^_^
Here is my analysis.

I believe all of the Abyssal Ones (AOs) overall power levels in terms of yoki are about equal, even if there are any differences, it wouldn't be as significant compare to Priscilla or the Destroyer. What really distinguish them from being the "strongest" or the "weakest" really lies in their specialized abilities, techniques, and endurance in their awakened forms.

I always thought the Original "Unholy Trinity" powers were about equal and their abilities kind of cancel each others' out, like they are like rock, paper, and scissors (Rock = Isley, Paper = Riful, Scissors = Luciella)

Luciella vs. Riful: 55% vs. 45%, Luciella can counter Riful's many ribbons attacks with her mouths and actually eat Riful's attacks like spaghetti, it's more of an endurance fight, although she would win she would still suffer significant damages.

Riful vs. Isley: 55% vs. 45%, Riful's body could probably evade Isley's arrows easily, it's more of close combat fight, although Isley's could change his arms to different weapons but with only 2 arms he is limited to 2 weapons meanwhile Riful has many ribbon blades at her disposals.

Isley vs. Luciella: 55% vs. 45%, Luciella countered Isley's arrows with her mouths, it was a close combat and endurance fight, at the end Luciella lost and Isley barely won with more endurance.

"The Queen of Blades" Alicia and Beth are created and designed for destroying the Original AOs and they specialized in cutting especially Alicia and with the speed to evade attacks from Riful. I am not really counting Beth because she sort of got a power boost from the Destroyer.

Alicia vs. The Original Three AOs: 60% vs. 40%, Alicia may have some problem with Luciella tho, due to Alicia required fighting in close combat, Luceilla's mouth from her tails and body may catch her off guard and damage her. Alicia can probably cut up everything Isely throw at her, and then cutting him up close range. If Alicia is a full AO without Beth suppressing her yoki and keeping her mind, Riful wouldn't find any weakness to exploit, it would have been only a matter of time before Alicia cut her up and finish her.

Hysteria the Elegant specialized in speed, the fastest AO, but the downside is her small body with lack of weapons especially in her final winged form. When using her speed attacks, firing herself like a rocket, Hysteria actually rely on her body to cause damage to the target. In her initial form, she could use her anchors as weapons, but it doesn't seem it would add much more damage factors to her against other AO level opponents.

Hysteria vs. Luciella: 40% vs. 60%, Luciella just have to wait for Hysteria to come at her and have her mouths ready to damage Hysteria enough to slow her down and finish her.

Hysteria vs. Riful: 40% vs. 60%, Riful just have to adjust her ribbons body when Hysteria come at her, and use her ribbons blades to wear Hysteria down and then finish her.

Hysteria vs. Isley: 40% vs. 60%, Isley just have to transforms his arms into giant fly smackers lol

Hysteria vs. Alicia: 40% vs 60%, Since both have similar body size, all Alicia have to do is keep spinning herself around and when Hysteria come at her she would just kill herself by Alicia's cutting blades arms

Roxanne of Love and Hate has whip claw arms attack and limited strong claws shooting ability, but lack regenerative power and her body movements speed seem average at best. Unless she still has parasitic ability or other ability yet to be revealed, these are all she has.

Roxanne vs. Luciella: 40% vs. 60%, Luciella just have to tank Roxanne's claws and eats them and she could probably countered Roxanne's whip attacks with her own tails whip attacks

Roxanne vs. Riful: 40% vs. 60%, Riful's ribbon body could minimize most of the damage caused by Roxanne's shooting claw, so she just have to wait out Roxanne to empty all her claws to win the battle.

Roxanne vs. Isley: 40% vs. 60%, As strong as Roxanne's limited shooting claws are, it would still be no match against Isley homing arrows, so Roxanne really lacks any defense against long range homing arrows.

Roxanne vs. Alicia: 35%% vs. 65%, With Alicia's small body size she could probably evade Roxanne's claws shooting (huge gaps) and also with super cutting power, even if she can't evade a claw she could probably could cut them to pieces, and close in to finish Roxanne

Roxanne vs. Hysteria: 45% vs. 55%, with Hysteria's speed she could probably evade all of Roxanne attacks, and with Roxanne's lack of regenerative ability, Hysteria could just continue to speedy damage Roxanne until she is down.

Cassandra the Dust Eater, a technique created and specialized in taking down awakened beings, a defensive and offensive technique, defensive aspect is evasiveness a fast dodging ability, and offensive aspect is quick limbs removal, legs and then arms. Once you are down unless the opponent has instantaneous regeneration of the limbs like Priscilla, the battle is pretty much over. Cassandra also have an impressive regenerative power and endurance.

Cassandra vs. Luciella, 65% vs. 35%, Cassandra evades Lucilla's tail whips, close in to remove the legs, Luciella once she is down she is as good as dead.

Cassandra vs Riful: 60% vs. 40%, Since Riful has so many ribbons blades as legs, Dust Eater limbs removal wouldn't be that useful, so it's more of a battle of endurance, Cassndra would probably win the endurance battle though.

Cassandra vs. Isley: 60% vs. 40%, As fast as Isley is, Cassandra's Dust Eating speed is pretty good, and her Dust Eating heads can extend to good long range, once she get the legs of Isley and down him, the battle is pretty much over.

Cassandra vs. Alicia: 55% vs. 45%, It's a battle of how fast Alicia can cut Cassandra versus how fast can Cassandra remove the legs of Alicia, but with Cassandra's impressive regenerative power even if Alicia cut a head tip or two, she can probably regenerate fast enough to remove a leg or two from Alicia, once she is down it's over.

Cassandra vs. Hysteria: 65% vs. 35%, As fast as Hysteria is, Cassandra is a tank, Cassandra just have wear Hysteria down enough to take her out.

Cassandra vs. Roxanne: 65% vs. 35%, Cassandra easily evade Roxanne's whip attacks, she can somewhat dodge Roxanne's claws shooting. If Cassandra just aim for Roxanne's legs from the start, then considering Roxanne's bad regenerative ability, once she down she is good as dead.

Rosemary seems like a eater type fighter, but we don't know much about her abilities or what she specialized in. Therefore, it very difficult to gauge how she fair against other AOs' abilities and techniques.

Rosemary vs. Hysteria: 40% vs. 60%, If Rosemary can damage Hysteria when she come at her then she has a possibility to win, but if not she is dead.

Rosemary vs. Roxanne: 40% vs. 60%, If Rosemary can tank the claws shooting from Roxanne, then she has a possibility to win.

Rosemary vs. the Rest of AOs: 35% vs. 65%, Unless more reveal about Rosemary's awakened abilities, I am not sure how Rosemary can counter against other AOs abilities.

So my rankings would be:

1. Cassandra
2. Alicia
3. Isley, Riful, and Luciella
4. Hysteria
5. Roxanne
6. Rosemary

Cassandra tops the ranking because of her abilities, specialized awakening being killing technique the Dust Eater, fast dodging, and her impressive endurance.

Yomaslayer 95
May 18, 2012, 02:55 AM
Nice analysis Galatea, the only one i kinda disagree with is hysteria vs alicia.
Since hysteria can only chip away small pieces off her enemies she is in an enormous disadvantage when fighting large AOs, but when fighting a small one she can deal massive damage using her speed and agility. I think hysteria has the advantage in this fight, but only because of her speed. Alicia is more badass though!

God Eye Galatea
May 18, 2012, 08:31 AM
Nice analysis Galatea, the only one i kinda disagree with is hysteria vs alicia.
Since hysteria can only chip away small pieces off her enemies she is in an enormous disadvantage when fighting large AOs, but when fighting a small one she can deal massive damage using her speed and agility. I think hysteria has the advantage in this fight, but only because of her speed. Alicia is more badass though!

Thanks Yomaslayer!
Yes, I did take into consideration their similar body size, but Alicia's arm blades cover a good area of her body, attached to her long blades are smaller blades that move constantly cutting away anything it touches, and she can spin attack like this :3
http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/186/11-062.0/compressed/mclaymore_v11c062_kindred_of_paradise_i.claymore_v11_143.jpg

Hysteria would just kill herself if she uses her speedy attacks if Alicia just spin herself like that.
As fast as Hysteria is, her downside is firing herself like a rocket using to body to cause damages, and she really lacks any defenses or weapons against AO level opponents. If her opponent has offensive power like Alicia at close range, it's dangerous for Hysteria.

Oh I forgot to mention, as funny as it sounds, I think Hysteria would have more offensive power if she still has the claymore stuck in her throat. She could have actually incoporate the claymore in her throat when using her speedy attacks that would have added more damage since the claymore is indestructible. With Hysteria's precision, she can probably speedy attacks only using that part of claymore sticking out to attack, much like her Elegant technique she was using as a warrior. But of course, it still dangerous to have a claymore stuck in your throat because the opponent can exploit as a weakness as well.

Oh one more thing I am always curious about, whatever happened to Alicia's claymore sword when she awakens. The claymore sword is on her back, but when she awakens it magicially disappeared, but when she de-awaken it's magically appeared back on her back. Considering the size of the claymore sword and the body size of awakened Alicia, and we can still see the cape and her uniform (the claymore sword is supported by a clip on the uniform and it's partly cover under the cape), so I don't think it is suck into her awakened form tho. *Shrugs*

Yomaslayer 95
May 18, 2012, 11:02 AM
Oh yea, that uber spin attack alicia has :zomg
I kinda forgot about that one *facepalm*
And about alicia's sword, i think its just Inconsistency. Yagi probably just forgot about it or just didn't want to come up with a solution...

113
May 19, 2012, 04:49 AM
I don't see Hysteria would win against pretty much most of the other AOs, sure she has speed, but her attack and defence just suck. Under normal circumstances fighting organisation warriors, she would definately win in time. The only way Miria and Co. were able to beat her was by putting her between two AO that were already fighting each other.

In the luciella vs. Isley fight (which we didn't really get to see much of) we can't be entirely certain of how it finished. Clearly luciella was in retreat, forced back to her human form, but if rafaela had not found her soon after, I get the impression that she would have gone off to regenerate and bide her time. We also don't know whether the fight towards the end was close but luciella felt the true presence of pricilla (as riful did) and that is why she chose to escape as fast as possible. The fight also did not show luciella's regenerative ability. If they were close or similar to cassandra's then I would place these two AOs as some of the most powerful of the group, purely due to the fact that the tend to eat most other attacks :) and in cassie's case, can regenerate so fast.

If Cassie were faced with a claymore or AO with better yoki sensing abilies, paired with pwning sword-techniques like Alicia's or the quick sword technique, I think she would be shredded past regenerating (which as a quiet aside, I think is why Yagi has given Clare the quick-sword and windcutter techniques in prep for her fight against pricilla).

I don't really know who I'd rank as the top AO though, too much you don't get to see in some of the fights and as someone else has previously stated, each fight seems to be determined by the match of skills / powers, setting and the outcome Yagi requires. I really view the new three ZAOs as filler material and nothing more. Whether Cassie will play a defining future part .. meh, who knows. I'm still bummed that Riful was killed off so easily, I still think she was one of the most interesting AOs to date.

If only Yagi would create a universe in which Teresa didn't die and fought Pricilla as awakened beings!

Shiek927
June 17, 2012, 04:34 PM
Sorry for anybody who may have been waiting on me to reply to anything – I've been very sick in bed these past two days with a stomach virus and without much interest in doing much of anything.




.....about the second thing that you said instead i have to say that i read perfectly well that in your speculation Isley let Luciela escape on purpose,but sorry that's a very stupid speculation that has not even a little logic supporting it,especially since Isley himself made it clear that he wanted to KILL her.
If you want to support that speculation you have at least to give a GOOD reason why letting Luciela escape at the end was a good thing for Isley,so far all you said on the matter doesn't make any sense.
On the contrary,letting Luciela escape AFTER a mortal fight like that is COMPLETELY against Isley's interests since that would push even more the other 2 abyssals to join forces (especially since we have already seen that Luciela is not exactly the type that necessarily wants to have a personal revenge,infact as soon as she saw Raph she asked her to finish the job for her,lol.......so an alliance between Riful and Luciela would have been very probable).

In conclusion,letting Luciela escape would have been a 100% idiotic move from Isley pow.

Also you should note that when Isley express his disappointment for not being able to finish her off, HE IS ALONE!!! What do you think? That he was lying to himself?
Please Shiek,open your eyes, this speculation of yours is weak as hell......
==


Malak, calm the hell down please.

Again, I'm not getting the real impression you actually read what I wrote since I tried to express every single possibility I could think of to arrive at what I think is the most likely answer, objectively – unfortunately, such a thing is very difficult with this because I don't think you can give an explanation without actually giving your own subjective point-of-view on things.

What does he have to fear by two Abyssals joining forces together now that he has Priscilla? Again, if you're arguing whether or not his strategy was stupid, then yes, I can agree...we can come up with all sorts of better strategies that he could have take to completely arrive at a better outcome, the same way we rip into Miria's strategies all the time and, say, argue that she should have simply left Pieta with all the warriors instead of trying to fight them all off.

But that's all beside the point Malak....we're not hear to argue what Isley should or shouldn't have done – we're hear to analyze what he DID too and try to understand “why”, and that's what I've tried to do....we can spend X amount of time thinking of better strategies he could have done, but it would be moot in the end because it wouldn't change what actually did take place in the story.

As for Riful and Luciella joining forces, then yes, it would be in their best interests considering they are both seemingly under the assumption that, if they did, they could beat Priscilla....however, I already went into why he may have not tried to chase after her if he could, and I feel there is enough visual indication that he didn't fight as well as he could have....plus, as far as he knows, Luciella is not the type to join up with anybody since that's plainly what she said and, as far as we know, that's the truth – unlike Riful who wants to 'make friends', Luciella had no allies or comrades of any sort whatsoever...if you're arguing that letting her go would have been a mistake because she would have joined up with Riful, then, given her personality, he couldn't be blamed for thinking she wouldn't bother....and even if she did, what difference would it make compared to Priscilla? Either way, it's no skin off his back.

==


Shiek, you have to admit that what Galatea has written is logical and quite possible even if no direct evidence is there, the principles of logic and possibilities are on Galatea's favor this time, because the Destroyer (which is the name that we have to use because Racilla was the name given at the time because she was nameless back then) is in principle just like Hellcats and as we have seen Deneve mentioning that it takes them half a day to stop moving and die (stop functioning) but we all know that the destroyer is actually way stronger than those (above AO's level) but losing power with every shot it shoots, and if she doesn't get a source of power she will lose even more power just to sustain living. So the idea of her to be sucking energy from Priscilla is quite possible and possibly not as much as we think, just enough to sustain the power levels so the barrier (the seal of the blob) would be unbroken by the difference in powers.

I'm not saying it's NOT a possibility....I'm just not placing too much into it until we've gotten more evidence – like GEG said, it's just speculation at this point.

Unless I'm mistaken however, where did you get the idea that Raciella wasn't self-sustaining? I can understand the HellCats and what is “sprouted” from her not having their own source of energy and dying off naturally in time, but I don't remember anything saying that Raciella herself was also living on borrowed time. If there is something in the manga that actually says this, then the speculation definitely has more merit to it.

As for Raciella's name, that's just the name I prefer to use since it was the first name we ever heard from her – old habits, what can I say.

haegar
June 17, 2012, 04:41 PM
What does he have to fear by two Abyssals joining forces together now that he has Priscilla? Ah no offense there shieky but go re-read the chap Isley (and Riful in the follow up) explicitly stated that he did what he did to prevent a Riful x Luciella vs Priscilla since they just 'might' have stood a chance against her and he wanted to smash that only chance they had from the getgo, it is the very reason he attacked Luciella in the first place

given what we have seen from Priscilla since then maybe that was being overly careful - but at the time that undoubtedly was his motivation and Riful immediately understood what he had done - that famous angry glare face of hers while saying "that woman is far stronger than us" - she has it because she realized precisley THIS was Isley's plan all along ...

anyways, hope you get over your cassy style inconveniences soon :teehee

Shiek927
June 17, 2012, 05:25 PM
s
Ah no offense there shieky but go re-read the chap Isley (and Riful in the follow up) explicitly stated that he did what he did to prevent a Riful x Luciella vs Priscilla since they just 'might' have stood a chance against her and he wanted to smash that only chance they had from the getgo, it is the very reason he attacked Luciella in the first place

given what we have seen from Priscilla since then maybe that was being overly careful - but at the time that undoubtedly was his motivation and Riful immediately understood what he had done - that famous angry glare face of hers while saying "that woman is far stronger than us" - she has it because she realized precisley THIS was Isley's plan all along ...

anyways, hope you get over your cassy style inconveniences soon :teehee

I'll say again Haeger - we know for a fact that Riful and Luciella joining together would have truly meant nothing in the end; of course, going by what they, and we for that matter, knew at the time, of course it all seemed that way and was also why everything turned out the way it did in the end. You say he was being overly-careful, but the way I see it, is that he knew from the get-go how strong she was (he fought her after-all, so he would know better them most), which is why he deliberately planted the false rumors that she lost to him and that she could have been beaten by two Abyssals.

My core point with the Northern Campaign, is that everything turned out exactly the way Isley intended it too....we could argue if it was a good strategy or not, but that's beside the point - it turned out the way he intended it too, and I'm trying to understand why and rationalize that over what he should have done instead.

As for why he chose to go after Luciella, you also need to keep in mind that he promised to take Priscilla to the South to find her family...now, obviously, how much that promise was of importance to him or had effect in choosing to aim for the South is another thing entirely, but the point is, as with other things I brought up (like if he told Priscilla to attack Riful), their was only so much he could stretch his relationship with Priscilla before it fell apart...it's one thing to ally with this man in hopes of her finding her family, it's another for him to ask her to kill people she's never even met before seemingly as part of that.

Haeger, like I said in my original post on this to Gooral....their is only so many coincidences a person can take - we know Isley is a strong manipulator, if not a flawless one, and trying to argue what he should and shouldn't have done is pointless...I'm trying to simply make sense of what happened and that's why I feel everything I've written.

Ugh, thanks....believe me, I can understand how Cassandra feels >_<

gnut
June 17, 2012, 06:04 PM
i would have loved isley to mention what he had planned for rigaldo before he snapped:gwah...he may have had rigaldo be part of the group that attacked the org.
but,it would have been cool to see him fight riful and dauf...:super
i don't know...you guys' convo got me thinking about rigaldo and how he was so obediant towards isley.
i know he was someone strong for the girls growth(especially clare)...but what if...right(shrugs)

haegar
June 17, 2012, 06:26 PM
I'll say again Haeger - we know for a fact that Riful and Luciella joining together would have truly meant nothing in the end
I'll say again, what we know now matters not, what matters is what Isley knew, or believed to know at the time insofar as we can deduce it from his words to Riful and her reaction
(hint: quote Horsey: "manical laugh: It's to late ... everything.. all of it too late. My objective was already complete the second I entered the fight with Luciella. [blah blah no matter how many awakends blah blah] no one can kill priscilla NOW." *insert Riful rageface here*
quote Noodles: "if there was even a little chance to defeat that woman it was a power that surpasses abyssal ones. in other words there was no way but for me and luciella to team up and defeat her. Anticipating this Isley made the first move."

Now, granted this is Riful's version, but we get a flashback and Isley's no one can kill priscilla NOW corobates exactly what riful assumes as his reasoning.)

hence, forgive me for being blunt: end of story - if logic intended to be part of story.

get some rest you should - your posts it might do good :teehee

*ducks and runs*

Gonzaro
June 17, 2012, 08:21 PM
I think the most powerful is Cassandra. She is like a bullied kid who gets crazy, buys some guns and kills everyone.

serpico
June 18, 2012, 01:05 AM
Hard for me to say on this one. I do not consider Rosemary an AO, because it isn't just the requirment of having the numerical demonination of the number one given to you by the organization, but also you need a certain level of power before you awaken to really be an Abyssal one. Rosemary was more on par with Rigardo and Agatha then an Abyssal one like Isley or Riful. Likewise the Destroyer is on par with Priscilla and well beyond an Abyssal one in power so i don't count it amongst the list.

I think that power wise it's too difficult to say, these are all creatures that stalemate one another, if there were any pure defining power between them there such stalemates would not have existed, but because they are comparable fighting head to head makes them even enough that both side have to worry about losing.

If i were giving awards though...

Riful is awarded most Versatile body
Isley is awarded best offensive ability
Luciela is awarded most unique offense/defensive ability (Luciela is also awarded Fanfic awakened kittens with Rigardo, cat's unite!)
Beth is awarded an A for effort
Alicia is awarded most destructive single target attack
Hysteria is awarded the title of fastest Abyssal one
Cassandra is awarded the title most agile Abyssal one
Roxanne is is awarded the the meanest bit*ch trophy (because sometimes being a mean chick really does work out)

Say that Rosemary is not an abissal because she lost against teresa is not just
Because teresa was awesome powerful - while isley does a poorly performance -
Against Helen he was unable to Dodge Helen slow motion attack
.

su5so
June 18, 2012, 02:04 AM
I think Isley would not prevent the alliance of Riful and Luciela. Is common sense, if he thought that these two could beat both together Priscilla, if he fought alongside Prisicilla, the two abysmal have nothing to do. Avoid an alliance does not make sense, if he always stay with Priscilla.
What he wanted was to restore the mental stability to Priscilla because she was currently unstable.
(Remember that in his fight with Isley, he could kill her because she reacted too late). He used the clash of two abysmal yoki to recover awareness of Priscilla, because an unstable priscila (even stronger) could be overcome by Riful or Luciela due to her mental instability .
If we remember the words Isley told Riful, then everything fits, "Now no one can beat Priscilla" This clearly indicates that even a few hours before, she did could be overcome, but after the abysmal fight anyone could beat Pricilla

Whether Isley fought with all his might against Luciela, I think so. The last sentence he said, clearly demonstrated that he wanted to kill her, but could not. And if he wanted to kill her, obviously had to use all its power, otherwise it would not make sense.
In addition, at that time, Yagi showed little his fight and had not even thought of the sword. The battle with the devouring, I think it was when it was invented to make fanservice.

haegar
June 18, 2012, 07:00 AM
assuming he was running under the logic of "two abyssals might get prissy down", sure he would smash one of them - it is a precautionary measure - who knows, maybe they could come up with some scheme to temporarily separate him and Prissy as long as they are side by side all is fine but if he wanted to secure Prissy's position he would follow through to destroy the chance of anything like this ever happening. This whole plot of his he executed also had some sort of psychological angle as with it he kind of rubbed it in that as things are they stand no chance. He proved himself to be marginally stronger or at the least equal to Luciella while at the same time getting his point across to Riful (granted, that backfired as she came up with the destroyer plan later) On why I read things this way: Yagi sometimes likes to leave things wide open for specualtion, but here he actually went to the trouble to give us a flashback of that meeting and add Riful's reasoning to explain further so I am inclined to take that at face value. In a way he also made use of the old 3AO plot line to introduce the new SAO on level with Prissy as the outcome of this whole scheme of his eventually cumulated in Riful raising the destroyer. So I fell it all adds up fairly well and personally don't see the need to speculate deeper on this - I admit the notion of him doing what he did to appease Priscilla's whishes and thus keep her by his side has some merit, but that does not void the above points, it is achieving two objectives at the same time ...

littleangel
June 18, 2012, 09:17 AM
Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature and since she awakened she needs more now to keep her powers as is but now there is no source of power I don't know how they will survive unless what is done is the same as what Raphaela did with Lucilla which is not understood even for us as how they are alive all this time, and even when Clare tried to free her, Raphaela awakened!

Claymore1
June 18, 2012, 09:47 AM
Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature
Plus priscilla said that the destroyer had no desire for meat and didn't have any memomeries or emotions left. So it doesn't feed, but it constantly releases yoki. So eventually if it didn't absorb someone else's yoki it would run out of energy.

Shiek927
June 18, 2012, 02:03 PM
I'll say again, what we know now matters not, what matters is what Isley knew, or believed to know at the time insofar as we can deduce it from his words to Riful and her reaction
(hint: quote Horsey: "manical laugh: It's to late ... everything.. all of it too late. My objective was already complete the second I entered the fight with Luciella. [blah blah no matter how many awakends blah blah] no one can kill priscilla NOW." *insert Riful rageface here*
quote Noodles: "if there was even a little chance to defeat that woman it was a power that surpasses abyssal ones. in other words there was no way but for me and luciella to team up and defeat her. Anticipating this Isley made the first move."

Now, granted this is Riful's version, but we get a flashback and Isley's no one can kill priscilla NOW corobates exactly what riful assumes as his reasoning.)

hence, forgive me for being blunt: end of story - if logic intended to be part of story.

get some rest you should - your posts it might do good :teehee

*ducks and runs* Haeger haeger haeger......just because the characters at large, and so we the readers, thought a certain way at the time, doesn't change the fact it was always like that since the very beginning or that other characters actually knew the truth. The revelations behind the DoDs and Yoma being infected humans...we only learned them very recently but they've been around for hundreds of years.

Isley is one of those people - your argument is that he was being overly-careful or that, put simply, didn't know Priscilla's actual potential...I say otherwise however - he knew her potential because he fought her himself and was damaged by her in a single blow; he knows what she's capable of better then most.

Your argument is semantics and picking apart what he said; that maybe he didn't know at the time, but he somehow knew then and there talking with Riful....how? that doesn't make sense - what happened at that exact moment to, if this is you reasoning, make him understand Priscilla's true potential?

What? because Riful was scared of her and walked away? that still doesn't say much....Riful responded by saying that she was stronger then both herself and Dauf - their is nothing, going with semantics the same way, that says she still couldn't have been able to beat her if she allied with Luciella.

Plus, we have to remember Priscilla's style....her natural suppresion abilities, her conservative way of fighting....indeed, it would make sense if Isley didn't indeed know her true power -- it takes an Eye physical contact to even sense her powers, after all (when they are suppressed)....again however, what happened during that situation to suddenly make Isley realize her true power if he was only being overly-careful before? She was touching his shoulder...you can argue that he was sensing her real power then, but again, it took an Eye physical contact to sense anything from her at all....being an Abyssal doesn't really count either -- Riful is a fantastic sensor, but she isn't perfect and their are those better then her in individual areas...

My personal reasoning is that, even if Isley never understood her true potential, he understood it better then most because, again, he actually fought against her....so even if he didn't know how far her power could go, he knew better then most, and certainly knew that Riful and Luciella joining forces wouldn't change anything....thus, he planned accordingly, and set up his information warfare with his false rumors as he began his war campaign.


I think the most powerful is Cassandra. She is like a bullied kid who gets crazy, buys some guns and kills everyone. roflmao, I basically said the same thing at one point....While I won't argue for or against her being the most powerful, I do agree with the expression - Awakening turned her from a meek girl to someone who brings a gun to school...a fairly common thing. Of course, mind you, she hasn't 'changed' and is still the meek girl she ever was....this is more of a surface manifistation then anything else.


Shiek, first I have to say that I didn't mean that the destroyer has like 10 days to die or something, I meant it like she needs a source of power to survive just like any living creature and since she awakened she needs more now to keep her powers as is but now there is no source of power I don't know how they will survive unless what is done is the same as what Raphaela did with Lucilla which is not understood even for us as how they are alive all this time, and even when Clare tried to free her, Raphaela awakened!

Oh, I see, I didn't understand you.

*shrug, well, I don't know...time will tell - it's a sensible speculation like anything else I suppose...I guess we'll see what happens.

Nixl
June 18, 2012, 03:18 PM
Shieky, I think one can make the argument that no one, not even Isley, truly understood Priscilla. While it is true Isley had a better understanding of Priscilla than anyone else, we have no evidence that he ever met Priscilla's adult personality nor did he understand what that would mean for her fighting prowess. To me, that makes a huge difference, especially in how Priscilla fights. It may be that Isley gauged Priscilla's fighting capability off of the infantile state that he found her in and not the adult personality that she became later. Hence, he believed Luciella+Riful could potentially be against a infant Priscilla, but that says nothing of av Priscilla armed with an adult personality.

I understand that this is a stretch, but I would compare the extra chapter and the 90s chapters up to the latest to show the difference between the infant and adult personalities of Priscilla. The reason is that I do not think Infantile Priscilla and Adult Priscilla are comparable in terms of power. I know that may be strange, but the way they fight does seem slightly different. Infantile Priscilla, defeated Isley with her Awakened form going crazy. Adult Priscilla killed Alicia and Beth in human form with her bare hands. After that, Adult Priscilla killed Riful, Dauf, a legion of Hellcats, Zombie Dauf, and then proceeded to one shot the Destroyer's form in one sitting. I think that there is a precision and a cruelty in Adult Priscilla that is not shown in Infantile Priscilla.

I do not think Isley, let alone anyone, could have understood what Priscilla would be like with an adult personality.

I would also make a parallel with Miata. She is insanely strong, but her mental problems hold her back from reaching her potential. I do not see Priscilla as being that much different.

number12michael
June 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
Shieky, I think one can make the argument that no one, not even Isley, truly understood Priscilla. While it is true Isley had a better understanding of Priscilla than anyone else, we have no evidence that he ever met Priscilla's adult personality nor did he understand what that would mean for her fighting prowess. To me, that makes a huge difference, especially in how Priscilla fights. It may be that Isley gauged Priscilla's fighting capability off of the infantile state that he found her in and not the adult personality that she became later. Hence, he believed Luciella+Riful could potentially be against a infant Priscilla, but that says nothing of av Priscilla armed with an adult personality.

I understand that this is a stretch, but I would compare the extra chapter and the 90s chapters up to the latest to show the difference between the infant and adult personalities of Priscilla. The reason is that I do not think Infantile Priscilla and Adult Priscilla are comparable in terms of power. I know that may be strange, but the way they fight does seem slightly different. Infantile Priscilla, defeated Isley with her Awakened form going crazy. Adult Priscilla killed Alicia and Beth in human form with her bare hands. After that, Adult Priscilla killed Riful, Dauf, a legion of Hellcats, Zombie Dauf, and then proceeded to one shot the Destroyer's form in one sitting. I think that there is a precision and a cruelty in Adult Priscilla that is not shown in Infantile Priscilla.

I do not think Isley, let alone anyone, could have understood what Priscilla would be like with an adult personality.

I would also make a parallel with Miata. She is insanely strong, but her mental problems hold her back from reaching her potential. I do not see Priscilla as being that much different.

he has met her adult persona...when he confronted her in the north....she commented on the fact that he was "big". during there fight is when she slipped into the little girl with no memories(of awakening) and thinks she is looking for her family..

No if miata has the power of a number one dose that mean she is going to be used to fight prissy(if she is released) or Cassandra (if something happens and miria and co. dont make it in time)....were would you rank her in power with everyone else...i say she is stronger then helen and deneve

Nixl
June 21, 2012, 01:57 PM
I disagree. I would argue that the Priscilla Isley met was her regressed infantile personality. Maybe she looked like an adult in size, but the persona she showed after killing Teresa was absent. Just look at pages 9 and 11 of extra chapter 3. Her dialogue is utterly childish, with questions of why people are running away or Rigardo, "not looking tasty." Compare that dialogue to Priscilla's lines just as she awakens or even when she goes on the attack in the chapter 90s/100s. She talks differently.

I would argue what really sets "adult" Priscilla from her infantile personality is cruelty. Adult Priscilla is cruel and mocks her opponents. She mocked Irene after tearing her arm off and Alicia/Beth and so on. The Priscilla of the extra chapter shows none of that. I just do not see the Priscilla of the extra chapter as the adult Priscilla at all.

Also, I am not comparing Miata to Priscilla in terms of power, but rather how the state of their personalities hold them back.

serpico
June 22, 2012, 12:41 PM
he has met her adult persona...when he confronted her in the north....she commented on the fact that he was "big". during there fight is when she slipped into the little girl with no memories(of awakening) and thinks she is looking for her family..

No if miata has the power of a number one dose that mean she is going to be used to fight prissy(if she is released) or Cassandra (if something happens and miria and co. dont make it in time)....were would you rank her in power with everyone else...i say she is stronger then helen and deneve

I would not compared miata against Priscilla miata performance against Galatea was poor the same isley against Helen he could not even Dodge single impaled attack fro Helen /the same miata was unable to beat Galatea went they clash with the sword miata was the one who always was sending flying mining miata is inferior in strength against Galatea so to trying to make fight against Priscilla would be ridiculous and her on demise even the rest of de ghost stand no chance and am whiting form them to kicked the but :derp

kstefan88
June 27, 2012, 01:03 AM
I would not compared miata against Priscilla miata performance against Galatea was poor the same isley against Helen he could not even Dodge single impaled attack fro Helen /the same miata was unable to beat Galatea went they clash with the sword miata was the one who always was sending flying mining miata is inferior in strength against Galatea so to trying to make fight against Priscilla would be ridiculous and her on demise even the rest of de ghost stand no chance and am whiting form them to kicked the but :derp

First of all, judging Miata's strength from her fight with Galatea, how to put it, is at best a very vague thing to do. Galatea can manipulate Yoki, so, basically spoken, most likely can read it, too (I think it's the same, as with reading and writing. If you can't read, you can't write). Since Miata basically is a raging pile of Yoki Galatea shouldn't have problems with that.

Concerning the physicaL strength.

Miata is a child, Galatea a woman, I'd say in her late twenties - and that is, for a Claymore, a long life to live. For a Claymore it is like getting stronger nearly all her life (even without training). How I came to that conclusion is simple: When a Claymore awakens, she unleashes all her potential (as stated at the time of Priscilla's Awakening). However, up until now, no matter how old she was, every Claymore who awakened got a power boost - meaning, that there was still potential. Ergo, a Claymore becomes stronger gradually, no matter what.

Taking the fact that Galatea already was number three and the seven years passed, I daresay that she may be even stronger than a your regular number one. Miata could not win to her, but she did not lose either. So saying that she is on number one level sounds pretty much legit to me.

On a side note: how much does Miata weigh compared to Galatea? Most likely less then half, so it should not be a problem for Galatea to toss her around while clashing in mid-air. Strength? Doesn't matter.
Prissy still would tear her to shreds, though, as long as she has not gotten weaker in the blob.

kstefan88

PS: Please, for the sake of our poor eyes, use punctuation. At least a little.

number12michael
June 27, 2012, 09:58 AM
First of all, judging Miata's strength from her fight with Galatea, how to put it, is at best a very vague thing to do. Galatea can manipulate Yoki, so, basically spoken, most likely can read it, too (I think it's the same, as with reading and writing. If you can't read, you can't write). Since Miata basically is a raging pile of Yoki Galatea shouldn't have problems with that.

Concerning the physicaL strength.

Miata is a child, Galatea a woman, I'd say in her late twenties - and that is, for a Claymore, a long life to live. For a Claymore it is like getting stronger nearly all her life (even without training). How I came to that conclusion is simple: When a Claymore awakens, she unleashes all her potential (as stated at the time of Priscilla's Awakening). However, up until now, no matter how old she was, every Claymore who awakened got a power boost - meaning, that there was still potential. Ergo, a Claymore becomes stronger gradually, no matter what.

Taking the fact that Galatea already was number three and the seven years passed, I daresay that she may be even stronger than a your regular number one. Miata could not win to her, but she did not lose either. So saying that she is on number one level sounds pretty much legit to me.

On a side note: how much does Miata weigh compared to Galatea? Most likely less then half, so it should not be a problem for Galatea to toss her around while clashing in mid-air. Strength? Doesn't matter.
Prissy still would tear her to shreds, though, as long as she has not gotten weaker in the blob.

kstefan88

PS: Please, for the sake of our poor eyes, use punctuation. At least a little.

ok i was not comparing Mitia to prissy , what i was asking was how strong is mitia compared to the other Ghosts.....and would she be used in the fight agents prissy

Yomaslayer 95
July 02, 2012, 02:41 PM
I think miata is one of the best ways to keep prissy distracted or pinned down (using her super strenght) She isn't strong enough to defeat prissy by herself but she can certainly hold her own. As for comparing her to the other ghosts, i think she's slightly superior to miria and clare in combat effectiveness, just because of her raw power:^_^

kstefan88
July 03, 2012, 05:20 AM
I think miata is one of the best ways to keep prissy distracted or pinned down (using her super strenght) She isn't strong enough to defeat prissy by herself but she can certainly hold her own. As for comparing her to the other ghosts, i think she's slightly superior to miria and clare in combat effectiveness, just because of her raw power:^_^

According to Clare, you don't need strength to fight Priscilla, just speed and technique. Miata sure has great speed, but her technique is just to... raw to give Priscilla problems. So, I don't think that she actually can do something about her. She'd be slain, to put it simple.

Yomaslayer 95
July 09, 2012, 04:05 PM
According to Clare, you don't need strength to fight Priscilla, just speed and technique. Miata sure has great speed, but her technique is just to... raw to give Priscilla problems. So, I don't think that she actually can do something about her. She'd be slain, to put it simple.

It's still better than throwing in tabitha or any of the lower ranking ghost's.:^_^

Claymore1
July 09, 2012, 08:57 PM
It's still better than throwing in tabitha or any of the lower ranking ghost's
Ahh, Tabitha..... One of the best pieces of background scenery Yagi has ever drawn :D

Nixl
July 12, 2012, 12:13 PM
It's still better than throwing in tabitha or any of the lower ranking ghost's.:^_^

Ahem, cough* cough*

Let's keep Mitia, Clarice, and Brolatea out of this fight, so that we can have fun arcs later.

Let Tabitha handle this one. It is not like she has any character development to lose.

kstefan88
July 14, 2012, 05:32 PM
Ahem, cough* cough*

Let's keep Mitia, Clarice, and Brolatea out of this fight, so that we can have fun arcs later.

Let Tabitha handle this one. It is not like she has any character development to lose.

Galatea? May die.
Clarice? May die (rather not), but then Miata will go AO (yeah yeah, she's no number one, but you know about what I mean).
Miata? Mustn't die.
Tabitha? Will eventually rule the world (and Miria).

Oh, and Nixl:

Brolatea
I don't get that one, will you be so kind to explain?

Nixl
July 14, 2012, 09:06 PM
If Tabitha is still alive by the end of the manga and in a position of power/authority I may very well eat my keyboard.

As fro Brolatea (Bro+Galatea), she has always been helping characters out from Claire, Miria, Clarice/Miata, and finally Tabitha. She is a bro.