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Page356
January 21, 2012, 08:17 AM
Okay I'm just curious as to how powerful you would consider Mihawk. The man obviously has the title "World's Greatest Swordsman" but how does he compare to all of the other characters? Is he at the level of an admiral, an emperor, or something else? Was he stronger than Shanks back in the day when they used to fight? Since Shanks still uses a sword does that make Mihawk stronger than Shanks even though Shanks is an emperor? We know for a fact already that combat prowess varies quite a bit amongst the Shichibukai so is he the strongest warlord?

kkck
January 21, 2012, 02:43 PM
I believe that mihawk is actually above the admirals and on or at the most extremely relatively equal to shanks. Mihawk is the ultimate target of zoro's. In this regard, it is not likely zoro will defeat him halfway through the new world, as he is an ultimate target it is likely mihawk will finally be defeated close to the end of the manga. However, if they fight close to the very end of the manga it would seem rather likely that by this point the strawhats have already faced a couple of admirals or admiral level people and bested them. In this particular regard plotwise it makes sense for mihawk to be stronger than those guys simply because it is extremely likely he will be zoro's final enemy given the current context of the story. At the very least I doubt mihawk will be defeated halfway through the new world, how would it make sense for zoro to accomplish his dream so much before luffy?

Zmsp
January 21, 2012, 04:12 PM
Putting Mihawk above an admiral is to much, those 3 dudes fought evenly with WB,Akainu actually having had the upper hand in most of the fight, while Mihawk stated during the war that he wanted to see the difference in strenght between him and WB, meaning he believed not to be on his level..

And I dont think Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, it was said they used to duel before shanks got injured,so we dont know if the title of the strongest was only claimed by Mihawk after Shanks lost his arm, or even if Shanks had any intention on being granted such a title while he still had both his arms.
He is,no doubt,incredibly strong, and will probably be one of the last, if not the last, big opponent of Zoro,but I dont even think Zoro will end the manga being capable of defeating an admiral 1 vs 1, they are just that powerful,I even doubt Luffy himself will beat any admiral 1vs1 except,perhaps, Akainu, because of revenge,and that will be pretty close to the end of the manga,considering how difficult it is to reach Akainy nowadays.

So, Mihawk is probably the strongest of the shichibukai,depending on Flamingo (from whom we've had so little information) and belongs on the tier of strongest characters in the manga, aside from the final antagonist/Admirals.

I do not doubt he could evenly fight with any Yonkou ( captain ), but I personaly dont believe the captains of the yonkou crews are the strongest characters in the manga, they are very strong,but are only the top 4 because of the crews they've gathered,well, aside from Blackbeard who is being hyped to be the strongest character Luffy will have to defeat..

Regino
January 22, 2012, 02:20 PM
I think it is hard to measure real strength in OP...

Mihawk had difficulties to fight vs jozu because of his diamond ability, but Jozu did not stand a chance against an admiral. Of course Jozus abillity was a big advantage, but to consider Mihawk as strong as an admiral is really too much.

Among the swordsman in Op he is certainly one of the strongest and maybe the strongest... I cant measure Shanks (as a fighter, not as an Yonkou) and Shiryuu.

Within the world of Op as a whole I would say he is one fo the 20 strongest characters (considering fighting skills only)

matzik1212
January 22, 2012, 03:47 PM
Hmm i think Mihawk is Yankou's lvl for sure. I personally find him an interesting character and i always had the feeling from the battles we saw that he hasn't fought to his fullest not even once. Maybe with Shanks he fought seriously since i doubt he would spar so many times with him just to kill some time but of the fights we saw till now i can say i haven't felt him being serious. He's the type of guy who likes to calculate his moves so he doesn't give too much when he's fighting ,that's the impression he gives me :)
And i think he is able to stand up to an admiral. I guess it all depends of the situation. Remember he wasn't afraid to attack WB head on. I don't think he would have done that if he wasn't confident in his skills and power.

bisha16
January 22, 2012, 04:45 PM
I believe that mihawk is actually above the admirals and on or at the most extremely relatively equal to shanks. Mihawk is the ultimate target of zoro's. In this regard, it is not likely zoro will defeat him halfway through the new world, as he is an ultimate target it is likely mihawk will finally be defeated close to the end of the manga. However, if they fight close to the very end of the manga it would seem rather likely that by this point the strawhats have already faced a couple of admirals or admiral level people and bested them. In this particular regard plotwise it makes sense for mihawk to be stronger than those guys simply because it is extremely likely he will be zoro's final enemy given the current context of the story. At the very least I doubt mihawk will be defeated halfway through the new world, how would it make sense for zoro to accomplish his dream so much before luffy?

I like your idea it would be cool if they will fight at the end and to see a fight in a higher level than the admirals because zoros dream is as important as luffy's one so it would make sense if oda-sensei would let us mouth-open when he shows us the real power of the greatest swordman in one piece which surpased even admirals that would make the fight between zoro and mihawk:zomg epic maybe the best fight in one piece and zoro deserves that:amuse

Schabrak
January 22, 2012, 04:46 PM
Expecting a couple more swordsman being introduced with the Yonkou and NW marine crews, I would put him into the Top 5 of swordsman, Top 10 to 20 of fighters.

Why? While he is a Shichibukai, he doesn't give a shit about their[WG/Marines] opinion and follows his own agenda. Dracule[besides the Yonkou] is one of the most free characters presented, which shows off his own power already. Factor in being Zoros supposedly final rival, he should be capable of fighting some of the top dogs equaly.

BlackHair
January 23, 2012, 03:25 AM
Mwk is definitely last tier. Capable of fighting equally with any introduced high tier. Out of the Yonkou and Admirals, I personally believe he is stronger than Shanks and Kizaru. I beleive each high tier is extremely close in power lvl. Means even if I said he would be able to defeat Kiz and Shanks, those fights will be much like Lucci vs Luffy. Luffy won, but just barely, he couldn't even move. I expect a similar scenario.

Anyway strongest Shichubukai followed by DoFlamingo.

vagabond87
January 23, 2012, 04:52 AM
Mihawk said to Luffy that if he want to be King of Pirates he will have to become stronger than him. So I think that Zoros final enemy is equal to emperors and admirals.. I wonder why he doesnt have even single scar on his body while being swordsman his entire life(Oda drawn him as a kid and even back then he had sword with him).
BTW I cant wait for Bleckbeard killing of Jozu and giving diamond DF power to Shiliew- I predicted something like this when it was said that BB is in hunt for DF powers.

BlackHair
January 23, 2012, 05:32 AM
Mihawk said to Luffy that if he want to be King of Pirates he will have to become stronger than him. No, Mwk said that becoming Pk is harder than defeating him. (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2114-13/one-piece/chapter-52.html) It has a different meaning than ur interpretation.

Now since we know how the world works, we perfectly understand Mwks words from back then. After all becoming the strongest swordsman means only to defeat the title holder (Mihawk), while becoming PK means conquering the Grand Line and beating every contestant on the way to finally reach Raftel. The island which was said to be only reached by Roger. Leaving anything in the blank century and prior aside.

Samui
January 23, 2012, 07:39 AM
Over 9000.

kkck
January 23, 2012, 09:25 AM
I think it is hard to measure real strength in OP...

Mihawk had difficulties to fight vs jozu because of his diamond ability, but Jozu did not stand a chance against an admiral. Of course Jozus abillity was a big advantage, but to consider Mihawk as strong as an admiral is really too much.

Among the swordsman in Op he is certainly one of the strongest and maybe the strongest... I cant measure Shanks (as a fighter, not as an Yonkou) and Shiryuu.

Within the world of Op as a whole I would say he is one fo the 20 strongest characters (considering fighting skills only)

Well, all jozu did was block a slash from mihawk. I would not quite call that a fight just yet lol. Among people who have reached that level I really doubt we can say much from blocking a lone attack. And from what I recall jozu did give aokiji a fight, that he lost in the end is another matter.

---------- Post added at 09:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 AM ----------


Putting Mihawk above an admiral is to much, those 3 dudes fought evenly with WB,Akainu actually having had the upper hand in most of the fight, while Mihawk stated during the war that he wanted to see the difference in strenght between him and WB, meaning he believed not to be on his level..

And I dont think Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, it was said they used to duel before shanks got injured,so we dont know if the title of the strongest was only claimed by Mihawk after Shanks lost his arm, or even if Shanks had any intention on being granted such a title while he still had both his arms.
He is,no doubt,incredibly strong, and will probably be one of the last, if not the last, big opponent of Zoro,but I dont even think Zoro will end the manga being capable of defeating an admiral 1 vs 1, they are just that powerful,I even doubt Luffy himself will beat any admiral 1vs1 except,perhaps, Akainu, because of revenge,and that will be pretty close to the end of the manga,considering how difficult it is to reach Akainy nowadays.

So, Mihawk is probably the strongest of the shichibukai,depending on Flamingo (from whom we've had so little information) and belongs on the tier of strongest characters in the manga, aside from the final antagonist/Admirals.

I do not doubt he could evenly fight with any Yonkou ( captain ), but I personaly dont believe the captains of the yonkou crews are the strongest characters in the manga, they are very strong,but are only the top 4 because of the crews they've gathered,well, aside from Blackbeard who is being hyped to be the strongest character Luffy will have to defeat..

I don't think we ever saw the admirals fighting evenly with WB. If I recall aokiji was unable to freeze WB and while akainu did land a few hits he also definitely took a pounding from WB. In the end I don't see where exactly the admirals seemed equal to even wounded WB (he was stabbed before he started fighting).

Well, shanks actually caring for the title of the strongest is kinda out there however given what we have seen of shanks and his crew at the start of the manga I doubt there would have been many duels if they hadn't actually tied. Mihawk is not the sort to run away from a fight (no scars of retreat) and shanks is not quite the type to spare an enemy (he and his crew killed the mountain bandits). at least given the context of the story it would make sense they were equal.

I do think the monster trio will eventually be able to take out the admirals though. Wouldn't they need to be able to do at least that much? The 4 yonkou are insanely strong and to boot they should at least a couple people in their crews capable of fighting with admirals. heck, if luffy's crew is meant to have any parallels with the roger pirates it would even make sense for the monster trio to eventually best them. Even Rayleigh at his advanced age and after years of not fighting was able to fight evenly with kizaru.

Samui
January 23, 2012, 11:06 AM
Jozu blocking Mihawk's slash doesn't mean he will be able to do so in close quarters. Remember how Zoro and Mihawk cut through steel? By making contact with said steel. It shouldn't work differently with Jozu. Of course, it won't be so easy because it IS Jozu, as he has a high defence and a strong body as it is.

bisha16
January 23, 2012, 02:47 PM
Jozu was being manipulated by doflamengo just like a puppet but he is a diamond and thats why mihawk's attack didn't had any effect just like with bugy whom not even the strongest sword could do a thing to him because of hes devil fruit but this doesn't mean that mihawk is weaker than bugy or jozu

mattiaildivino
January 23, 2012, 03:28 PM
I think he is the only one who could defeat kuma out of the 7warlords,if we consider BB,as he was before volume 59. although i don't know how he could defeat kuma,who can teleport and can shoot beams and "air" . anyway I think he is weaker than jows,admirals and emperors. hw should have haki but it doesn't mean much,he is the strongest swordsman because he is the best one in using swords,but he would be stomped by a lot of other warriors.

frontaLobotomy
January 23, 2012, 03:36 PM
Power levels are such a tough one to call in One Piece, as fights are often dictated by the situation. Mihawk may be the strongest swordsman in the world, but if he fought Magellan in Impel Down, for instance, he'd be dead the same as pretty much everyone else. Compared to his fellow Shichibukai (those that we know anyway) I'd put him as one of the top 3 fighters alongside Doflamnigo and Boa Hancock. Whoever replaces Jinbei, Teach and Moria would still be below their level as well imho.

Zehahaha
January 23, 2012, 04:04 PM
Power levels are such a tough one to call in One Piece, as fights are often dictated by the situation. Mihawk may be the strongest swordsman in the world, but if he fought Magellan in Impel Down, for instance, he'd be dead the same as pretty much everyone else. Compared to his fellow Shichibukai (those that we know anyway) I'd put him as one of the top 3 fighters alongside Doflamnigo and Boa Hancock. Whoever replaces Jinbei, Teach and Moria would still be below their level as well imho.

Why would he be dead ? It's not like he makes direct contact with Magellan, it's only the sword...

kkck
January 23, 2012, 04:20 PM
Why would he be dead ? It's not like he makes direct contact with Magellan, it's only the sword...

I guess it depends, if we think about it the whole magellan situation had a few points which made no sense. Say crocodile... He has range and there is no reason for his attacks to not his magellan and get him dehydrated. Still we saw the guy running from him... heck, if crocodile could make a path to scape level 6 there is no reason for him to not be able to turn the entire prison into sand or simply climb out of the prison by the same means.

Shiliu seems like a reasonably powerful swordsman, strong enough to impress BB (who was unimpressed by luffy and bonnie). If he is as strong a swordsman as he is implied to be then things like ranged slashes should pretty much be a given and even then he did not seem to be a match to magellan even though realistically speaking magellan did not seem fast or strong enough to keep up with luffy during his bout with him. it wouldn't make sense if shiliu was not THAT strong either as he is likely to fight zoro in the future....

Zehahaha
January 23, 2012, 04:43 PM
Thing is, dehydrating him would mean " touching " him. If you just touch him, you're dead.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but say that he stretched his hand by turning it to sand, if you threw a liquid at that hand, would it turn normal ?
Or let's say for example Crocodile turns into sand or partially, someone throw a liquid at him, he will turn to his normal self right ?

In the case of Mihawk, he has long range attacks, and also, even in close range, it's his sword that will make direct contact, not Mihawk himself.

About Shiliu, well we don't know if they fought to begin with (unless I forgot), but it has probably happened, and taking into consideration that Magellan is in a closed place, which grants him quite the advantage, it is normal for him to win if there was ever a fight I guess.

BlackHair
January 23, 2012, 05:28 PM
Im putting Shiryu and Magellan below Mwk. Not together, individually. I don't see how Magellan can beat him. He can fight in long range and his cuts should have no problem passing through his liquid poison. Hence I don't see how Magellan can stop his immense brutal cuts. And since Luffy was able to "scratch" him, it rules him as a high tier out imo.

About Crocodile vs Magellan, this is a though one. Its true that he was running away, but that was for plot reasons imho. I mean Magellan was supposed to be beaten down by BB pirates. And Croco was needed to seize the marine ship. I would still put Magellan above Crocodile, but should be tough one for him. Except the poison fog, everything can be dehydrated by his sand.

Don't get me wrong, Im not downplaying Magellan. I think he is a worthy Admiral candidate, if he got a bit stronger. Im also putting him above Shiryu Crocodile but below Mwk.

kkck
January 23, 2012, 09:40 PM
Thing is, dehydrating him would mean " touching " him. If you just touch him, you're dead.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but say that he stretched his hand by turning it to sand, if you threw a liquid at that hand, would it turn normal ?
Or let's say for example Crocodile turns into sand or partially, someone throw a liquid at him, he will turn to his normal self right ?

In the case of Mihawk, he has long range attacks, and also, even in close range, it's his sword that will make direct contact, not Mihawk himself.

About Shiliu, well we don't know if they fought to begin with (unless I forgot), but it has probably happened, and taking into consideration that Magellan is in a closed place, which grants him quite the advantage, it is normal for him to win if there was ever a fight I guess.

Crocodile does not need to actually touch magellan to do that. His spada attacks have range and dehydrate the targets. Remember when he attacked the marines that were going to execute ace?

Zehahaha
January 24, 2012, 05:13 AM
Crocodile does not need to actually touch magellan to do that. His spada attacks have range and dehydrate the targets. Remember when he attacked the marines that were going to execute ace?

Yes that's what I'm talking about, even if he turns into sand, it is still his body right ?

Lemonadez
January 24, 2012, 05:36 AM
Who knows about his strength, maybe mihawk capable of using haki too? I mean u cant defeat a logia with out using a haki, considering mihawk been in New World already, we know New World have logia user.

Beside even white beard commander able to use haki. I say Mihawk would probably be in admiral level too, Haki can harm admiral :-). If mihawk really that weak then diamon jozu wont even block his attack.

Schabrak
January 24, 2012, 05:59 AM
Yes that's what I'm talking about, even if he turns into sand, it is still his body right ?
Don't think so, or else Ace attacks at BB or Kizarus laser spikes would have been their own body too. I believe they have control over the element once it's just a moving mass. Of course there's a difference to the extension of their bodies they have shown us at times, like Smoker catching people with his smoke hands. The water Aokiji turns into ice, isn't his body too obviously.

bisha16
January 24, 2012, 06:28 AM
Don't think so, or else Ace attacks at BB or Kizarus laser spikes would have been their own body too. I believe they have control over the element once it's just a moving mass. Of course there's a difference to the extension of their bodies they have shown us at times, like Smoker catching people with his smoke hands. The water Aokiji turns into ice, isn't his body too obviously.

If u remember the fight between crocodile and doflamingo crocodile got a injury from doflamingo and he got that while he was in his sand form so this means that the sand is part of his body and if u hit the its the same as hitting a part of his body

Zehahaha
January 24, 2012, 06:33 AM
Don't think so, or else Ace attacks at BB or Kizarus laser spikes would have been their own body too. I believe they have control over the element once it's just a moving mass. Of course there's a difference to the extension of their bodies they have shown us at times, like Smoker catching people with his smoke hands. The water Aokiji turns into ice, isn't his body too obviously.

Well, aren't Crocodile long range attacks an extension of his body ?

Schabrak
January 24, 2012, 06:36 AM
What I'm talking about is that if the logia user is 100% in human form and sends his element towards the enemy. The destruction of that object doesn't/shouldn't hurt the user, as seen with ... all characters? Could you pm me the scene of the CvsD fight? Only if the user uses the element as an extension of his body/extremities, it would of course hurt the user when the oponent has enough/more control over CoA.

BlackHair
January 24, 2012, 07:35 PM
In the SBS it was said that any elemental attacks of a logia are part of their body. I remember it clearly since it was one of my first discussions on this forum, I believe it was with Imitorar. (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/member.php/21789-Imitorar) But I couldn't find it in the SBS nor the discussion from back then.

Anyway jsut wanted to say this, hopefully someone else remembers it. Since tbh I lost interest in searching after 2 minutes, maybe tomorrow xD :derp


If u remember the fight between crocodile and doflamingo crocodile got a injury from doflamingo and he got that while he was in his sand form so this means that the sand is part of his body and if u hit the its the same as hitting a part of his bodyDon't remember Crocodile getting hurt by any other than Jozu.

Jet Piston
January 24, 2012, 09:38 PM
I think Mihawk is one of the strongest characters but to say he is stronger than Kizaru is ridiculous. Kizaru is by far one of the most powerful characters in OP with a really hax logia.

Lemonadez
January 24, 2012, 09:46 PM
Remember smoker, he's also a logia type.

Boa manage to kick smoker when he's not even solid himself. Haki can harm logia user wether their in solid form or not. we dont know if Don Flamingo can also use haki, we dont even know what his abilities exactly do.

And kizaru isn't the one with hax abilities. Heck u let him fight between Jimbei and kizaru in ocean. Jimbie wins -.- as devil fruit weakness would be sea it self.

If i were to choose between hax abilties, it would be Enel, his abilities can read mind and further more he can tap into unlimited lightning and his lightning alone can wipe out entire island into dust. 200,000,000 volts will hurt other logia user. only rubber was his weakness -.-, imagine if enel took part in whitebeard war, he can wipe out the entire sland where navy standing. His lightning alone is enough to melt a metal. He will just melt aokiji ice and they all sink into sea -.-

kkck
January 24, 2012, 10:12 PM
Yes that's what I'm talking about, even if he turns into sand, it is still his body right ?

Not necessarily. A bit part of being a logia is the innate ability to generate significant amounts of one element. The sand crocodile creates is not necessarily a part of his body in this particular regard.

ocajavati
January 24, 2012, 10:29 PM
Um.

If no one noticed, WB was beating back Akainu with relative ease up until he got a stroke or something.

Not to mention WB was nowhere near his prime; Mihawk's gauge of WB's strength could easily be from past memories. Both Marco and Jozu were fighting on par with Admirals until they were caught unaware.

I find it hard to believe Mihawk would be considered weaker than Marco and Jozu. At least on par.

Maybe Mihawk will pick up a few tricks before the end of the manga? Who says the Strawhats are the only one getting stronger as the story progress?

Remember how Roger's first mate was able to beat back Kizaru, despite his lack of practice and advance age? If Luffy does indeed become the Pirate King, I would hope Zoro, being the first mate, could at least match Rayleigh in power.

Otherwise... it would just be a very depressing generation.

GomuGomu_Getsuga
January 24, 2012, 11:13 PM
I wouldn't put Mihawk on par with the Yonkou or Admirals. He wasn't capable of defeating Vista and didn't show any extreme strength against an injured and tired Luffy. We also have no idea what new swordsmen might rise. Mihawk probably hasn't fought every swordsman in the world.

I think Mihawk can fight an Admiral or Yonkou to some extent but would lose. If Mihawk were that strong then Zoro would be strong enough to defeat Blackbeard, Kaidou, Sengoku or Akainu in the end. That would put Luffy on too high of a level for any villain to stand a chance against him.

xeteboi
January 25, 2012, 12:55 AM
I would put Mihawk equal to the Admirals,saying Mihawk losing to the Admirals is just like saying that Shanks will lose too. It is the dream of Zoro, next to Pirate Kings dream of Luffy, it is no joke.

Drakrami
January 25, 2012, 01:22 AM
I'm guessing with the plot twist that Mihawk trained Zoro, someone like Shiryu will eventually defeat or kill Mihawk (no one wants to see this) and Zoro in turn would have to defeat Shiryu to claim the throne of the strongest swordman. At least that is how a traditional manga would develop.

But then One Piece is always unpredictable, and that is why it is One Piece.

BlackHair
January 25, 2012, 06:52 AM
He wasn't capable of defeating Vista and didn't show any extreme strength against an injured and tired Luffy. We also have no idea what new swordsmen might rise. Mihawk probably hasn't fought every swordsman in the world.

I think Mihawk can fight an Admiral or Yonkou to some extent but would lose. If Mihawk were that strong then Zoro would be strong enough to defeat Blackbeard, Kaidou, Sengoku or Akainu in the end. That would put Luffy on too high of a level for any villain to stand a chance against him.I strongly disagree with ur Bleach or Dragonball concept. Honestly I can't stand it. It doesn't work in OP. Luffy is always portrayed close to Zoro's lvl -> red datebook. One Piece isn't like: A beat B, so naturally A has to be stronger than C, who was beaten by B. Such theory simply doesn't work. There will be certainly opponents who Luffy jsut can't handle.

Just cause Mwk has the title of the strongest, doesn't make any other swordsman a fodder for his swords. Take AoKiji vs Akainu for example. They needed to fight 10 days to determine the stronger one. So now considering that how long did Mwk fight with Vista? couple of seconds maybe?! What makes u think Vista can be beaten in mere seconds, in minutes max? Why do u portray Vista as a fodder?

Anyway, Mwk played with Luffy and Vista is no fodder. Period.



I think Mihawk is one of the strongest characters but to say he is stronger than Kizaru is ridiculous. Kizaru is by far one of the most powerful characters in OP with a really hax logia.Kiz hax? hm.. true some ability's of Kiz may hax, but that goes also for some of Croco's or any other df abilities. Guys with hax abilities are Kuma and Enel imo. Maybe Im forgetting someone xD


Oda is saving Mwk for future plot. Means he couldn't let him go wild in the war arc. Mwk along with just a few guys (Kizaru, Hancock..) left the marineford war with absolute zero damage line. No panting, no dirt, no wounds, no signs of battle altogether. Think about it for a second.

Mwk is Zoros goal, a endgame character. Saying that he will definitely lost to Admirals or Yonko is just a false statement imho.

kkck
January 26, 2012, 04:26 PM
So... isn't luffy's crew meant to mimic in some form roger's own to some degree? In this particular regard, we did see Rayleigh being a match for an admiral even though he was an old fart who had spent the last 20 something years boosing. It wouldn't be strange at all that zoro to end up being actually stronger than an admiral nearing the end of the manga which incidentally is, as I said before, the most likely time he will finally defeat the strongest swordsman in the world. Mihawk is a monster among monsters, heck, casually swinging his sword resulted in a several mile long cut of a huge iceberg (admittedly the iceberg was indeed created by an admiral but still).... Heck, mihawk is one of the few people who walked out of the war without so much as a scratch on him....

elitefox
January 27, 2012, 02:29 AM
Remember smoker, he's also a logia type.

Boa manage to kick smoker when he's not even solid himself. Haki can harm logia user wether their in solid form or not. we dont know if Don Flamingo can also use haki, we dont even know what his abilities exactly do.

And kizaru isn't the one with hax abilities. Heck u let him fight between Jimbei and kizaru in ocean. Jimbie wins -.- as devil fruit weakness would be sea it self.

If i were to choose between hax abilties, it would be Enel, his abilities can read mind and further more he can tap into unlimited lightning and his lightning alone can wipe out entire island into dust. 200,000,000 volts will hurt other logia user. only rubber was his weakness -.-, imagine if enel took part in whitebeard war, he can wipe out the entire sland where navy standing. His lightning alone is enough to melt a metal. He will just melt aokiji ice and they all sink into sea -.-

Well ground is infinite conductor of electrical energy so he cannot really destroy an island, that is why he like the floating piece of ground but all that is above land is going to be destroyed nevertheless... Enel's teleportation > Kisaru, that I think is his advantage but kisaru have haki so kisaru is going to kick his ass big time :^_^

BlackHair
January 27, 2012, 02:15 PM
I believe at the very end of the story the monster trio will be capable of fighting the Admirals/Yonko on par. They will be definitely high tier. Luffy will be without doubt the strongest man at the very end. Since Zoro has been imo always portrayed close to Luffy's lvl, I have every reason to believe that Mwk as his last game foe will be extremely strong. Oda is saving him for plot after all.

I think Mwk can definitely win against Shanks and Kizaru, individually. Not by a big margin, much like Luffy vs Lucci.

kkck
January 27, 2012, 03:48 PM
To be completely honest I don't think that even now the monster trio are that far off from the admirals... I mean, not one of them would actually win in a fight just yet against them however with the strength they have shown I do think they would indeed be able to put up a fight. The monster trio at least are by no means people who could be easily dealt with by admirals nowadays, without at the very least that much now there is no way they would be able to survive their impending fight against the full might of one of the yonko...

BlackHair
January 27, 2012, 10:15 PM
Actualy Im not sure about that. Though a lot of ppl seem to share ur opinion. True the monster trio are much stronger. But putting them on high tier lvl, I don't know. I mean we are despite everything just barely past the middle of the grandline. There has to be at east 3 arcs before Raftel. I don't think the crew has already high tier fighters in their midst. Otherwise there wouldn't be much space for improvement.

The monster trio were taken by AoKiji's single attack. Now I might see them fighting back together, maybe even win by hairbreadth. But each monster on his own? I don't think they can hold their own yet.

kkck
January 28, 2012, 12:42 AM
Well, the whole point of the timeskip was that they would be able to defend themselves from strong people. more so, if they are not capable of at least holding their ground against an admiral there is no way they can in any imaginable way get the best of the guys that make up big mom's crew (at least I can't imagine a yonko without people capable of going 1 on 1 against an admiral).

suraj5898
October 28, 2012, 09:38 AM
I wouldn't put Mihawk on par with the Yonkou or Admirals. He wasn't capable of defeating Vista and didn't show any extreme strength against an injured and tired Luffy. We also have no idea what new swordsmen might rise. Mihawk probably hasn't fought every swordsman in the world.

I think Mihawk can fight an Admiral or Yonkou to some extent but would lose. If Mihawk were that strong then Zoro would be strong enough to defeat Blackbeard, Kaidou, Sengoku or Akainu in the end. That would put Luffy on too high of a level for any villain to stand a chance against him.

when luffy find one piece and will have final war i think it he will have war against world government that means admiral will not be strongest fighter from their side they will be these 5 old man . i m 100% sure they r more powerful then admiral

eefrit
October 29, 2012, 06:49 PM
I completely missed this topic somehow. Mihawk is strong, there is no doubt about that, but I highly doubt that he is stronger than an admiral or Shanks. I'm am certain that he is on the same level as them, however. I personally would be rather vexed if he were stronger than all three of the marine's greatest fighting force. We've seen what the admirals can do when they go all out (Punk Hazard).

I'm pretty sure he and Shanks were equal in strength before Shanks lost his arm. Remember, it was said that Mihawk had stopped pursuing Shanks. Meaning Shanks was someone Mihawk felt he had to either prove his superiority to or he was the only one who he could take on while not holding back. Either way he apparently went out of his way to find Shanks whenever he wanted to fight. As for now, I'm certain they are still on the same level, as a databook stated Shanks was not weakened in anyway and when Mihawk found Shanks to tell him about Luffy, Shanks seemed pretty comfortable with the idea of fighting him, although Mihawk lost interest.

Jorge D. Dragon
October 29, 2012, 11:08 PM
Well, Mihawk is obviously damn strong. As for how strong he is. I would put him around an Admiral level. The difference is that if he can defeat an Admiral or just manage to tie with them? I believe he won't actually win against any of the Admirals. These guys are just beasts in any term and with their DFs they are just beyond a reason. Also they seem to be quite proficient in terms of Haki. If we remember the fight between Akainu and those who tried to prevent him chaising Luffy and Jimbei barely managed to hurt him and they were Marco, Vista dn some other strong guys and Marco and Vista do know Haki, so it's not only about Haki and being strong to take down a Logia Admiral.

And about Shanks and Mihawk... Well, there is a difference between being still that strong and being as strong as before as a swordsman. Mihawk was interested in a sword fight, not a fight of Haki or something else and obviously that Shanks got worse with sword as he lost his main hand. And nothing implies that he is as good as he was with his sword than before as the only thing he did was a block, but you can do it without being a swordsman. For now Shanks relies mostly on Haki and it's obviously great, but Mihawk clashed with him before as a swordsman, so he isn't interested in fighting him anymore.;)

eefrit
October 30, 2012, 04:19 PM
As weird as it is, I still think Shanks is one of the strongest swordsmen. I just believe that Mihawk, like Zoro, has an honor code and he feels that there is no honor in fighting a one armed opponent, even if he hasn't lost any skill.

GomuGomu_Getsuga
October 30, 2012, 04:31 PM
I think the new big question is if Mihawk will be the final swordsman that Zoro will face. Mihawk is known as the strongest swordsman but he hasn't defeated every swordsman in the world.

I still think the real strongest is Zoro's original master. Wouldn't that be badass?

eefrit
October 30, 2012, 07:26 PM
Mihawk is Zoro's final goal. There should be nothing to change that. He hasn't fought every swordsman, true, but I'm sure any swordsman would want to test their skills against the "World's Greatest Swordsman".

Jorge D. Dragon
October 31, 2012, 07:25 AM
Well, now after Zoro was training under Mihawk,, I don't really think they will have an actual fight for the title of the strongest swordsman. I believe that Mihawk, after witnessing Zoro's progress at some point will claim that Zoro has become the strongest one and pass this title to him.;)

M3J
November 01, 2012, 08:04 PM
I would put Mihawk as an admiral-level strength, considering he became a shichibukai and managed to beat Zoro like it was nothing. I think he's the only one to have done that, although Zoro was nowhere near the level he was after Skypeia. Not to mention, Zoro became far more powerful under Mihawk, being able to take on a Pacifista when even the Monster 3 had to go all out to even damage it.

He could even be Yonkou level though, since he and Shanks fought a lot for fun, but I dunno who won those fights, and whether Shanks went all out.

kkck
November 09, 2012, 04:00 PM
I doubt mihawk would let go of the title of the strongest without a fight... He is a swordsman who we know for a fact challenged shanks solely to test and prove his skills, he cares about being the strongest. I'd argue there is no reason for mihawk to not be zoro's final enemy even after the admirals.

M3J
November 11, 2012, 02:54 PM
Mihawk will definitely be one of Zoro's final enemies. I'm not sure if he's stronger than the admirals, but if he's not, then I stand by with what I said, if none of the admirals use swords. It would be pretty cool to see that fight, considering Mihawk beat Zoro without a problem. A great way to see how strong Zoro's gotten. I wouldn't mind seeing Mihawk when he started out to the middle and up to the current to see how strong he was and how much stronger he's gotten, considering his power. So far, Mihawk is the only person to beat Zoro like nothing, if I recall.

Even a pacfista or Lucci couldn't keep Zoro down.

Zehahaha
November 12, 2012, 01:43 PM
Well, now after Zoro was training under Mihawk,, I don't really think they will have an actual fight for the title of the strongest swordsman. I believe that Mihawk, after witnessing Zoro's progress at some point will claim that Zoro has become the strongest one and pass this title to him.;)

Nope, a fight is fated between these two (and certainly a long awaited one), although I'd love to see a peek at Mihawk's true strength (you know, some wtf feat like cutting a huge thing into half, not the iceberg, but imagine him cutting a freaking island haha)

MiyamotoMusashi
November 12, 2012, 02:53 PM
My estimation of power levels, although to declare it as such is not entirely possible since the strength of the characters are not easily defined but it is just how i view the characters based on the feats we have seen + the build-up a character got and i´ll probably believe in this until i am proven otherwise:


Yonkou =/> Admirals = Mihawk>DD> Yonkou commanders (Marco, Jozu, maybe Ace)> Kuma, Hancock = Luffy >Jinbe, Crocodile = Vergo, Smoker, Zoro, Sanji

This could easily change when new characters are introduced or i see something that does not fit with this

Ankit
January 06, 2013, 12:19 AM
He is probably the strongest out of the Schichibkai, or atleast one of the strongest. I'd have to say that he's probably weaker than the Admirals because the Admirals are incredible military powers. The fact that the Admirals couldn't take down WB by themselves is irrelevent because WB was arguably the Strongest person to live in the OP world at the time. Having the title of Yonkou probably also means that you are also of an incredibly high caliber when it comes to fighting(evidenced by the Marines not willing to continue when Shanks came to stop the war, as well as the preperations for WB's arrival).

Mihawk is probably somewhere between Yonkou/Admiral level and Schibukai/Vice Admiral level (not saying that they are equal to each other, but that's how I see the "tiers" at the moment).

llaubacher
January 06, 2013, 08:28 AM
I'd see Mihawk's power at the level of an Admiral. Also, in my opinion, he is the strongest out of the Shichibukai, if there is someone equal to him, then it MIGHT be Doflamingo. I can't imagine anyone else of Shichibukai to go toe on toe with him. I believe he would give an Yonkou a hard time as well. It's known about his matches with Shanks before he has lost his hand, however, we don't know the outcomes of those fights. Hopefully, we will get to see them in the future in some flashbacks.

7pac
October 22, 2013, 09:35 AM
I don't like this whole "shichibukai labeling"

There are vast differences in shichibukai's.

Kuma, Doflamingo and Mihawk are defently Admiral level.

Seeing that scene between Doflamingo and Aokiji was awesome. Clearly shows us that doflamingo is incredible strong.
He basically acts as a "5th" Yonkou. Kuma has one of the most op fruits + perfect pacifista and old leader of the revolutionaries. And Mihawk is the world strongest Swordsman.

Shichibukai = Admirals

Now back to Mihawk.
IMO, but im 100% sure oda will show it. Mihawk > Admirals(Some)
Mihawk > Shanks.

I just can't wait till it's shown in manga so all shanks fanboys stfu.

eefrit
October 22, 2013, 09:49 AM
You are somehow 100% sure that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, yet all the Shanks fanboys need to STFH? Hello pot! Have you met Kettle yet? We've no evidence that says Mihawk is stronger than Shanks or the Admirals(the Veterans anyway). Not that I think either Shanks or the Admirals are stronger. I think Mihawk is equal in power to both groups. In fact, in the case of Shanks, there is more evidence pointing to the fact that both are equal in strength, than the assumption that one is superior than the other.


I didn't give him the title, Oda did.

As for this, Oda has everyone else around Mihawk call him the Greatest. Mihawk hasn't said one word about himself being the Greatest. It could be that he's just being a humble SoB or it could be that he knows there are others out there that could potentially challenge him for the title should they choose.

Schabrak
October 22, 2013, 10:52 AM
I don't like this whole "shichibukai labeling"

There are vast differences in shichibukai's.

Kuma, Doflamingo and Mihawk are defently Admiral level.

Seeing that scene between Doflamingo and Aokiji was awesome. Clearly shows us that doflamingo is incredible strong.
He basically acts as a "5th" Yonkou. Kuma has one of the most op fruits + perfect pacifista and old leader of the revolutionaries. And Mihawk is the world strongest Swordsman.

Shichibukai = Admirals

Now back to Mihawk.
IMO, but im 100% sure oda will show it. Mihawk > Admirals(Some)
Mihawk > Shanks.

I just can't wait till it's shown in manga so all shanks fanboys stfu.
Labeling people as fanboys, missing how strongest swordsman doesn't say anything about him being the best fighter or not, providing a nonsensical equations, eh ... STFU yourself ?

edit: Let's not use such words to describe members please.

DutchPhoenix
October 23, 2013, 01:09 AM
As for this, Oda has everyone else around Mihawk call him the Greatest. Mihawk hasn't said one word about himself being the Greatest. It could be that he's just being a humble SoB or it could be that he knows there are others out there that could potentially challenge him for the title should they choose.

u should start reading the manga
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2114-12/one-piece/chapter-52.html

7pac
October 23, 2013, 03:39 AM
u should start reading the manga
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2114-12/one-piece/chapter-52.html

I was looking for that, great point.
Anyways, we'll just have to see, indeed arguing is useless, I mean Mihawk is sais to be the world strongest so that should be enough proof, but ok, let's wait 2014 I'm sure we will get to see more of shanks and mihawk.

Schabrak
October 23, 2013, 06:00 AM
The world strongest what!? Strongest pure swordman. Does he accept Shanks as a rival anymore because he lost an arm? Maybe not. Does that mean Shanks is weaker? Hell No! It says absolutely nothing about that.

You don't even seem to think one step ahead. What about the end? What about Shiryu contesting the #1 spot? What about thinking ahead of a comment from fifteen years ago, neart he beginning of the series?

eefrit
October 23, 2013, 07:40 AM
@DutchPhoenix and 7pac

Yeah, I looked at that page yesterday as a matter of fact while I was writing my post, so telling me to read the manga was unnecessary and quite a rude assumption to make. I did the research on the slight possibility I could be wrong and and guess what? I wasn't and I still stand by what I said. Mihawk said nothing about being the Greatest. He said he will always be at the top of the world, something that echoes what both Ace and Shanks have said to Luffy, and that he wants Zoro to work hard to surpass him. Doesn't mean he's the strongest at all. He is one of the strongest. Just like Yonkou who are at the top, just like the Admirals who are at the top, and just like a few of his fellow Shichibukai who are at the top. They are the World's Elite and it isn't just Mihawk who at the summit.

As a pure Swordsman, he's probably the strongest. In terms of technique his swordsmanship probably perfected, but that doesn't mean no one can go against him.

Vista was doing well and even got a hit in on him, so, as I said in the Yonkou discussion topic, if Vista can go toe to toe with Mihawk and fight evenly with him, why is so hard to believe that Shanks is equal to him? Especially when it has been said that Shanks was Mihawk's rival before he lost his arm and that losing his arm didn't weaken him in anyway. Which, again, points to them being equal in strength rather than one being superior to the other.


The world strongest what!? Strongest pure swordman. Does he accept Shanks as a rival anymore because he lost an arm? Maybe not. Does that mean Shanks is weaker? Hell No! It says absolutely nothing about that.

You don't even seem to think one step ahead. What about the end? What about Shiryu contesting the #1 spot? What about thinking ahead of a comment from fifteen years ago, neart he beginning of the series?

Pretty much this as well.

DutchPhoenix
October 23, 2013, 10:43 AM
Too bad shanks doesnt have the title ''worlds strongest swordsman'' giving by oda.
Too bad readers like shanks more then mihawk, so they try to make him a stronger swordsman then the one with the actual title.

lol people even wanted to make shanks just as strong/stronger then whitebeard.

REN KOUEN
October 23, 2013, 10:55 AM
I doubt mihawk would let go of the title of the strongest without a fight... He is a swordsman who we know for a fact challenged shanks solely to test and prove his skills, he cares about being the strongest. I'd argue there is no reason for mihawk to not be zoro's final enemy even after the admirals.

i agree, there is no way someone with pride like mihawks would concede the title of greatest swordsman without settling it with the blade:super

Schabrak
October 24, 2013, 01:41 AM
Too bad shanks doesnt have the title ''worlds strongest swordsman'' giving by oda.
Too bad readers like shanks more then mihawk, so they try to make him a stronger swordsman then the one with the actual title.

lol people even wanted to make shanks just as strong/stronger then whitebeard.
Do you fucking even read!? Piss off if you have no intention to argue, that's the most important part here, using your mind and think this through formulate more than "Oda said", read the arguments and counter them, some, a single one of those? How about that.

TheLuffySmile
October 24, 2013, 08:59 AM
Just gonna express my humble opinion here. I Believe that Mihawk and Shanks are about equal in swordsmanship, but Mihawk has perfected his swordsmanship and style to a greater extent than his "former" rival. I still feel that Shanks is the stronger of the two, due to having an extremely powerful Haki, and conquerors at that. But since we have yet to see the two of them go all out against any opponent, this is just my opinion from what I've picked up so far in the manga and what Oda sensei himself has stated.

My two cents:
Mihawk: Around admiral level.
Shanks: Around admiral level, slightly stronger.

ish3
October 24, 2013, 01:33 PM
My qualm here is it's inconceivable to think either party was vastly superior to the other. One is Yonkou with Kings Haki who stopped whitebeard and when they clashed they cut though clouds and pretty much purged the sky. Mihawk on the other hand since the beginning has been known as the worlds strongest swordsman.

Similar to Luffy and Zoro's relationship in my opinion. Pretty equal one slightly stronger then the other. But who knows we haven't even seen either party in a serious one one or use full strength so any comparison with lack of information besides titles at the moment is disgusting. WB was known as the strongest being on the planet but guess what he was still killed. They're all still human so it doesn't really matter who's stronger. Some of you guys really need to use common sense. What matters is how strong and what abilities they use against other strong opponents that's what I want to know not pure speculation.

DutchPhoenix
October 25, 2013, 06:12 AM
well oda is the writer of the mange one piece, and he said mihawk is the most strongest swordman, not shanks, so i go with mihawk being stronger then shanks.

Schabrak
October 25, 2013, 06:35 AM
Do you not want to participate in this discussion or are you too obtuse to understand the problem with your arguments?

A yonkou pirate is rated higher than a shichibukai, so there is that. Sounds stupid? Because that's what it is, a stupid conclusion ignoring everything else in the manga. We know that most Shichibukai are likely weaker than the Yonkou, but for all we know Mihawk is seemingly of similar strength to the top characters, not enormously stronger/weaker, but somewhere around Shanks fighting capability.

DutchPhoenix
October 25, 2013, 09:22 AM
Do you not want to participate in this discussion or are you too obtuse to understand the problem with your arguments?

A yonkou pirate is rated higher than a shichibukai, so there is that. Sounds stupid? Because that's what it is, a stupid conclusion ignoring everything else in the manga. We know that most Shichibukai are likely weaker than the Yonkou, but for all we know Mihawk is seemingly of similar strength to the top characters, not enormously stronger/weaker, but somewhere around Shanks fighting capability.

a younko is pirate captain of one of the four most powerfull pirate crews in the new world, they govern lots of islands and have many allies.
Mihawk doesnt have a crew, he doesnt govern islands.

this discussion is about his powerlevel, not about how strong hes non-excisting crew is, or how many island he ''controls''
Shanks IS a swordsman, and the fact oda didnt give him the title strongest swordsman should be enough to put a end to this discussion.
Sure till now we've seen impressive things from shanks, and aswell from mihawk.

However we havent seen their maximum fighting capability either.
Comparing shanks and mihawk , like luffy and zoro isnt good either, Luffy is using fists, unlike zoro, shanks and mihawk.
Is shanks damn powerfull? yes he is.
Is shanks stronger then Mihawk in a 1 on 1 confrontation now? no he isnt, simply because if he was, he would have been the strongest swordman.
Will mihawk have a easy win? nop, however we dont know how big that gap actually is yet.
is shanks more populair then mihawk? 100%

As for the future of one piece.
Zoro will surpass both shanks and mihawk eventually, and luffy will be as strong as whitebeard in his prime.
In terms of powerscale 1 too 100 , in the end luffy will be 100 and zoro 99

Also, i cant wait for coby to surpass garp ^^

TheLuffySmile
October 25, 2013, 09:53 AM
^ Just one thing, Shanks couldn't be labeled the strongest swordsman, because that would screw up the whole story. hence that makes pretty much all you're saying irrelevant. And how dare you state so many things like they're facts. I can't help but get to really annoyed at your ignorance and lack of information backing up what you're stating.

DutchPhoenix
October 25, 2013, 09:59 AM
^ Just one thing, Shanks couldn't be labeled the strongest swordsman, because that would screw up the whole story. hence that makes pretty much all you're saying irrelevant.

facepalm :D

7pac
October 25, 2013, 11:07 AM
^ Just one thing, Shanks couldn't be labeled the strongest swordsman, because that would screw up the whole story. hence that makes pretty much all you're saying irrelevant. And how dare you state so many things like they're facts. I can't help but get to really annoyed at your ignorance and lack of information backing up what you're stating.



lolwut

all he said is true 110%.

ish3
October 25, 2013, 02:04 PM
@Schabrak: Don't even waste your time. You can't even have a debate with people who have a clear cut ideal in their heads as facts when it's clearly not.

On topic though I want I know what lead Mihawk to be a loner at this point at time. Did he ever have a crew? No pirate is able to roam the seas alone. I feel he was either labeled a pirate for his destructive capabilities was on a pirate crew but decided to be on his own once he gained the title of warlord or his crew was killed. I doubt they offer the position to just regular any single handed being. I'm sure he had a following. But I could be wrong and that's what makes him more badass.

eefrit
October 25, 2013, 02:54 PM
Yeeaaah, I'm going to follow ish3's advice as well.

He must have had a crew at some point. The Grand Line is harrowing enough for beginners, I can't imagine someone being able to take it on alone until they become strong enough. Hell, even Roger and Whitebeard needed a crew to get as far as they did. He might have a crew and just disbanded it after some point in time. If his dream was to become a great swordsman, then he accomplished it early and didn't need a crew any longer.

DutchPhoenix
October 25, 2013, 03:32 PM
mihawk having a crew is just speculation, nothing more.
Facts are hes shown to live alone, having a 1 man boat, and has a castle in a country withoud people and manga never mentioned or even hinted at him ever being in a crew. hes just that badass to go where he pleases, alone.

ish3
October 25, 2013, 08:31 PM
Dutch it's all speculation and theory as what these threads are for. As badass as that sounds no one not even former and current admirals move throughout the world without a crew. At least before they obtained their titles. Every strong man has a following even if he's a lone wolf the right people would follow regardless that's why it's odd especially in a story such as One Piece. That's why I feel at some point his origin and backstory will be necessary. He definitely wasn't the person he is today since birth. Something happen to make him believe in destiny and its turning gears. Whether it be gol d roger or another experience.

Until he was the level he is now there's no way in hell he traveled the grandline let alone the new world on his own. I know it won't be until near the end of the series but I can't wait till we delve more into his character. I could care less about his feats or powers as he already has the strongest swordsman title. At least until Zoro fights him.

DutchPhoenix
October 26, 2013, 01:24 AM
if u want 100% facts..

1. Mihawk is the worlds most powerfull swordman
2. shanks got his arm eaten by a fish
3. shanks got 3 scars on his eye by blackbeard.
4. shanks has a big crew/allies and controls many islands and is a younko
5. mihawk is alone, and is warlord title given by government
6. mihawk and shanks were rivals before who had legendary duells.
7. mihawk doesnt consider shanks a rival anymore, now that he lost an arm.

Schabrak
October 26, 2013, 09:36 AM
a younko is pirate captain of one of the four most powerfull pirate crews in the new world, they govern lots of islands and have many allies.
Mihawk doesnt have a crew, he doesnt govern islands.

this discussion is about his powerlevel, not about how strong hes non-excisting crew is, or how many island he ''controls''
Shanks IS a swordsman, and the fact oda didnt give him the title strongest swordsman should be enough to put a end to this discussion.
Sure till now we've seen impressive things from shanks, and aswell from mihawk.

However we havent seen their maximum fighting capability either.
Comparing shanks and mihawk , like luffy and zoro isnt good either, Luffy is using fists, unlike zoro, shanks and mihawk.
Is shanks damn powerfull? yes he is.
Is shanks stronger then Mihawk in a 1 on 1 confrontation now? no he isnt, simply because if he was, he would have been the strongest swordman.
Will mihawk have a easy win? nop, however we dont know how big that gap actually is yet.
is shanks more populair then mihawk? 100%

As for the future of one piece.
Zoro will surpass both shanks and mihawk eventually, and luffy will be as strong as whitebeard in his prime.
In terms of powerscale 1 too 100 , in the end luffy will be 100 and zoro 99

Also, i cant wait for coby to surpass garp ^^
What does governing islands have to do with this? Provide a connection between power levels and the reign of characters over territories please. For all we know Shanks just sails around every couple months and chills on an island, uninhabited or not.

But it's not enough, this manga has gone fourteen times as long as it has been at that chapter, fifteen years have gone by since that moment, the manga has increased in volume, characters, had added a huge amount of plot and world building.

Why should we not be capable of comparing characters if they aren't using the same weapons? What idiocy is this!?

The long bolded sentence is a false equivalence. The popularity of a character doesn't say anything about strength, keep this bullshit out of the discussion.

And considering that you just wrote that those two are not comparable like Shanks and Mihawk, Luffy or Zorro better stay out of this topic, unless you can provide a connection to it.

Coby surpassing Garp until Luffy reaches his PK titles would be really weird and not make sense considering it took Garp decades to reach his prime, just like it took the fighters of Strawats years of their life to reach their current strength.


if u want 100% facts..

1. Mihawk is the worlds most powerfull swordman
2. shanks got his arm eaten by a fish
3. shanks got 3 scars on his eye by blackbeard.
4. shanks has a big crew/allies and controls many islands and is a younko
5. mihawk is alone, and is warlord title given by government
6. mihawk and shanks were rivals before who had legendary duells.
7. mihawk doesnt consider shanks a rival anymore, now that he lost an arm.
1. Yeah we all know that, every single reader of OP knows that. What's the point of repeatedly posting this information!?

2. http://i.minus.com/ibsICruF2sBOSl.gif
Did you just admit that you have a huge lack of understanding of this manga? Because posting this says nothing about Shanks capability to rip that Sea Monster apart in the first chapter. It rather ignores that physical sacrifice of Shanks for the one person he though could follow in his captain's footsteps.

3. Shanks confirmed Blackbeard to be a tough fighter, even before he stole the DF. What's your point?

4/5. What does that have to do with anything? Rayleigh swam through the calm belt before rowing there, Shanks would likely be capable of the same. What's your point?

6. And?

7. What does that say about Shanks being a capable combatant to Mihawk considering he's officially one of the top 4 pirates on the planet? Nothing.

Fact #8: You do not understand how discussions/argumentations work.

Please leave if you have no intention to actually talk, reply or rebut the argumentations provided.


_________


"Greatest Swordsman in the World"

Greatest as in most skilled on earth and likely the strongest as well, but that's not 100% sure. If Blackbeard used swords now and was capable of beating Dracule with help of his powers and sword, he would be the strongest on earth, but not the greatest/magnificent/briliiant/terrific/excellent/admirable one.

And Since Shanks lost his sword hand, his skill in swordmanship will have decreased, yet he surely wouldn't be weak either, just weaker than with both hands or rather his sword hand. Therefore Mihawk doesn't accept him as a rival anymore, as he is not capable of fighting to 100% as he was before.

MBVC
October 26, 2013, 06:37 PM
if u want 100% facts..

1. Mihawk is the worlds most powerfull swordman
2. shanks got his arm eaten by a fish
3. shanks got 3 scars on his eye by blackbeard.
4. shanks has a big crew/allies and controls many islands and is a younko
5. mihawk is alone, and is warlord title given by government
6. mihawk and shanks were rivals before who had legendary duells.
7. mihawk doesnt consider shanks a rival anymore, now that he lost an arm.


^ Not always true, I'm very certain that Mihawk wasn't the strongest swordsman of 25 years ago, that title belonged either to Rayleigh or someone else like the old monk who is among the top people controlling the WG. Hawkeye "never actually owns the title strongest swordsman, he merely looks after it for the next generation"!

DutchPhoenix
October 27, 2013, 03:18 AM
^ Not always true, I'm very certain that Mihawk wasn't the strongest swordsman of 25 years ago, that title belonged either to Rayleigh or someone else like the old monk who is among the top people controlling the WG.
We dont know who was the previous worlds most powerfull swordsman, manga hasnt mentioned that yet.



Hawkeye "never actually owns the title strongest swordsman, he merely looks after it for the next generation"!

I dont really understand your logic, that mihawk doesnt own it.
Mihawk really is the strongest swordman in One piece, thats why he currently has that title.
We dont know for how long he has that title, or how long he will keep it, but right now, he does own the title.

PS: i wouldnt be suprised if Rayleigh was the previous holder of that title ;)

MBVC
October 29, 2013, 06:16 PM
There must be some super strong swordsman who doesn't give a damn about the silly title. I hope Zoro will realize this truth, because I don't like Zoro wastes his remaining life defending this useless title.

TheLuffySmile
October 29, 2013, 07:35 PM
There must be some super strong swordsman who doesn't give a damn about the silly title. I hope Zoro will realize this truth, because I don't like Zoro wastes his remaining life defending this useless title. The thing is, Zoro probably knows that. And you would think that if there's some "super strong swordsman" that isn't in the marines, nor a bounty hunter or pirate, I'd be really disappointed. There is no way that someone of Mihawk-lvl strength is just out there somewhere in a small village cutting onions. Zoeo is not doing this for anyone but himself. He wants an adventure, and to defeat the man regarded as the strongest, just to know his own strength. What his limit is as a man, how far he can go. It's not a useless title, that is just your subjective opinion.

DutchPhoenix
October 30, 2013, 01:39 AM
There must be some super strong swordsman who doesn't give a damn about the silly title. I hope Zoro will realize this truth, because I don't like Zoro wastes his remaining life defending this useless title.

What makes you say this is the truth? an unknown superstrong swordman nobody knows about? xD

ikuroi
October 30, 2013, 07:42 AM
Just to add my two cents in this thread/debate;

Being the strongest swordsman doesn't mean he is the strongest in general.

I think what the databook said about Shanks not becoming weaker by loosing an arm (fact) is a hint, about a power we have yet seen (theory). We know he got amazing haki (fact).

What I believe;



Shanks vs. Mihawk,

In a swordsfight between Shanks and Mihawk, Mihawk will win (not an easy fight though).

In a all-out-fight between Shanks and Mihawk, Shanks will win (not an easy fight thouh).



An Admiral vs. Mihawk,

From what i've seen, admirals are monsters. But there are some people who can give them a fight and come up on top of it (Rayleigh, Marco, WB).
Even amongst the admirals there seems to be a power diffrence (Akainu seems to be at the top). I can't see alot of people beating him tbh.

So I say, Mihawk can fight them equally or beat or get beaten by them. But he is def up there power wise.


An Yonkou vs. Mihawk,

First off, I think the title goes to the most powerful pirate. So I think it's pretty similiar to the admiral case. But we have to little information on them, so I don't really know.. I can only go with my gut feeling on this one, to debate this also pretty useless as we haven't seen Shanks (since he became a yonkou), Kaidou or Big Mom fight.



An Shichibukai vs. Mihawk,

Can't really see any of them beating him. After what I've seen in the marineford arc and punk hazzard/dressrosa arc.


Oh I forgot, power =/= strength.

DutchPhoenix
October 30, 2013, 08:11 AM
Just to add my two cents in this thread/debate;

Being the strongest swordsman doesn't mean he is the strongest in general.

I think what the databook said about Shanks not becoming weaker by loosing an arm (fact) is a hint, about a power we have yet seen (theory). We know he got amazing haki (fact).

What I believe;



Shanks vs. Mihawk,

In a swordsfight between Shanks and Mihawk, Mihawk will win (not an easy fight though).

In a all-out-fight between Shanks and Mihawk, Shanks will win (not an easy fight thouh).
.

Shanks is a swordsman , but he does have impressive Haki, did you know Haki can be used to imbue swords?:)
In a all-out-fight between shanks and mihawk, shanks will still lose, even with his monster haki.
Thats how strong mihawk is, and why he has the title of strongest swordsman, and also why hes the ultimate goal for zoro ever since the beginning.
It aint shanks that zoro wants to beat, its mihawk.

Sure Shanks hes very strong and is a younko and is very respected, however he still will lose from mihawk combat wise 1 on 1.

Story wise Mihawk should be as strong or stronger then most of the younko, because hes zoro's final goal.
Besides, being the strongest swordsman, means he is the strongest swordman, including shanks.
It doesnt mean hes the strongest overall though, i agree on that.

As for people who think shanks isnt a swordman, should explain their own theory why he isnt a swordman anymore?
Its not like he ate a devilfruit, and haki can be imbued into swords.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-14/one-piece/chapter-597.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2623-6/one-piece/chapter-516.html

Reason why im sure why hes a swordman.
1. Shanks flag contain sword
2. Shanks in one piece games, is a swordman
3. Shanks is Always seen with a sword
4. shanks clashed with WB with a sword
5. Shanks blocked magma fist, with a sword.
6. Shanks was mihawks former rival.

Impossibility
October 30, 2013, 09:16 AM
This debate is pointless. There are those that have decided that the title given to Mihawk is somehow the most meaningful thing to ever have been put forth, and apparently nothing is going t dissuade them from spurious conclusions. These claims obviously have to wilfully disregard his showings and how he has compared to others, WB captains in particular. This also requires some to ignore the greater context of the manga. Suffice it to say, Mihawk holds the title of the strongest swordsman, but from what we've seen, that title means very little when he hasn't put much behind it.

ikuroi
October 30, 2013, 12:35 PM
Shanks is a swordsman , but he does have impressive Haki, did you know Haki can be used to imbue swords?:)
So what is your point?


In a all-out-fight between shanks and mihawk, shanks will still lose, even with his monster haki.
Thats how strong mihawk is, and why he has the title of strongest swordsman, and also why hes the ultimate goal for zoro ever since the beginning.
It aint shanks that zoro wants to beat, its mihawk.

So in an all-out-fight(brawl) he will still loose? Why? Last time I READ the manga strongest swordsman =/= strongest person.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2341-12/one-piece/chapter-234.html

We haven't seen Shanks fight yet, just defend. SO if you base all his abilty based on that. Go ahead.


Sure Shanks hes very strong and is a younko and is very respected, however he still will lose from mihawk combat wise 1 on 1.

Don't see your point.


Story wise Mihawk should be as strong or stronger then most of the younko, because hes zoro's final goal.

No you're wrong. That's no indications for him beating or being stronger than most of the yonkous. Zoro is aiming for the swordsman top, not the seat of the strongest person.


Besides, being the strongest swordsman, means he is the strongest swordman, including shanks.
It doesnt mean hes the strongest overall though, i agree on that.

Well if Shanks only fights with swords.. which we don't know. We haven't seen him fight, only defend with his sword. Until I or we see him fight we can't make that conclusion.



As for people who think shanks isnt a swordman, should explain their own theory why he isnt a swordman anymore?
Its not like he ate a devilfruit, and haki can be imbued into swords.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-14/one-piece/chapter-597.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2623-6/one-piece/chapter-516.html

I'm not denying he can fight with swords, but who says that's all he amounts to? Or that he hasn't eaten a fruit? Your just to hasty with your assumptions.

Whitebeard fought with his bisentō but he fought much without. So there isn't any room for fighters to be able to fight with a weapon and their body or ability (by your logic)? Like WB or Rayleigh?


Reason why im sure why hes a swordman.
1. Shanks flag contain sword
2. Shanks in one piece games, is a swordman
3. Shanks is Always seen with a sword
4. shanks clashed with WB with a sword
5. Shanks blocked magma fist, with a sword.
6. Shanks was mihawks former rival.

1. Pirate flags, usually contain bones or swords. It's just a typical pirate flag. Which might give away that he fights with swords.. or sword or with more than just that perhaps?
2. Non-canon, next please.
3. WB is always seen with a bisentō, doesnt make him a pure spear/naginata fighter. No?
4. True, and whitebeard with a bisentō.
5. I guess it's a smarter choice than stopping it with a haki imbued fist?
6. Guess that makes him a very good swordsman.


To be honest, im astonished.. that people claim that Shanks is a pure swordsman after we've seen him so little. For example I don't think Roger only fought with a sword just because we've seen him with a sword. Same goes for WB, Rayleigh, Smoker etc etc

MBVC
October 30, 2013, 03:32 PM
What makes you say this is the truth? an unknown superstrong swordman nobody knows about? xD


Similar to the new one just popped up and joined BB crew, that jailer, anyway you misunderstood my post. It's the truth about the tittle which Zoro wants, but great people like Shanks doesnt give a damn about being one of the Yonkou, he only wants adventures, rums, ales etc....


Most tittles are given by people who admire strong fighters, nobody has any copy right owning them.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------





To be honest, im astonished.. that people claim that Shanks is a pure swordsman after we've seen him so little. For example I don't think Roger only fought with a sword just because we've seen him with a sword. Same goes for WB, Rayleigh, Smoker etc etc


I think both Roger and BB used hand guns somewhere (can't remember the chapter #)


From my point of view only, in term of pure sword skills then Mihawk >>> Shanks but when it comes to haki then it's the other way around, because I don't think Hawkeye could beat Shanks in general. If Mihawk is hyper strong then why did he join shichibukai? Truly a strong person don't work for any organization but himself. If Hawkeye >> all Yonkou in 1-1 battle then why the WG didn't ask him to erase all of them with some help from the admirals for cleaning up Yonkou's crew members and alliances?

TheLuffySmile
October 30, 2013, 03:35 PM
^ Shiryu was a feared jailer of Impel Down, he was not some unknown nobody until he decided to join BB's crew.

MBVC
October 30, 2013, 03:50 PM
He's still unknown to those outside pirates who aren't in jail :)

Anyway, it seems like Hawkeye vs Shanks debate is going to last for a long long period of time in the future.

That monk at the top WG food chain is also a fighter I guess, but not many people know about his skills, similar to some marines officers never saw Sengoku true form.

TheLuffySmile
October 30, 2013, 04:04 PM
^ How can you be so sure that people don't know about him? Since he was a head jailer together with Magellan, and Magellan is famous for his strength, I suspect people know of Shiryu as well.

MBVC
October 30, 2013, 04:25 PM
Lol, we just switched from Hawkeye to Shiryu.

Well, all prisoners do know him, but I wonder how his name can reach out to those pirates who aren't in GL or in 1st part of GL.

TheLuffySmile
October 30, 2013, 04:35 PM
^ Probably by newspapers and such! and people coming back from the GL with stories perhaps?

DutchPhoenix
October 30, 2013, 04:44 PM
So what is your point?



So in an all-out-fight(brawl) he will still loose? Why? Last time I READ the manga strongest swordsman =/= strongest person.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2341-12/one-piece/chapter-234.html

We haven't seen Shanks fight yet, just defend. SO if you base all his abilty based on that. Go ahead.



Don't see your point.



No you're wrong. That's no indications for him beating or being stronger than most of the yonkous. Zoro is aiming for the swordsman top, not the seat of the strongest person.



Well if Shanks only fights with swords.. which we don't know. We haven't seen him fight, only defend with his sword. Until I or we see him fight we can't make that conclusion.




I'm not denying he can fight with swords, but who says that's all he amounts to? Or that he hasn't eaten a fruit? Your just to hasty with your assumptions.

Whitebeard fought with his bisentō but he fought much without. So there isn't any room for fighters to be able to fight with a weapon and their body or ability (by your logic)? Like WB or Rayleigh?



1. Pirate flags, usually contain bones or swords. It's just a typical pirate flag. Which might give away that he fights with swords.. or sword or with more than just that perhaps?
2. Non-canon, next please.
3. WB is always seen with a bisentō, doesnt make him a pure spear/naginata fighter. No?
4. True, and whitebeard with a bisentō.
5. I guess it's a smarter choice than stopping it with a haki imbued fist?
6. Guess that makes him a very good swordsman.


To be honest, im astonished.. that people claim that Shanks is a pure swordsman after we've seen him so little. For example I don't think Roger only fought with a sword just because we've seen him with a sword. Same goes for WB, Rayleigh, Smoker etc etc

alright, so you think that shanks isnt a swordsman, thats fine.
So what fighting style is shanks adapted on then?
Will he go around punching his enemies with his one remaining arm? :')
Or will he slap everyone with his feet?
Or perhaps haki imbued spit people to death.

ikuroi
October 30, 2013, 06:13 PM
alright, so you think that shanks isnt a swordsman, thats fine.
So what fighting style is shanks adapted on then?
Will he go around punching his enemies with his one remaining arm? :')
Or will he slap everyone with his feet?
Or perhaps haki imbued spit people to death.
Don't know. But he has enough strength to be a yonkou, or go toe to toe with, WB, Akainu and Mihawk (or at least did by some ppls assumptions).

Just keep on reading the manga and you will find out.

eefrit
October 30, 2013, 07:10 PM
Lol, we just switched from Hawkeye to Shiryu.

Well, all prisoners do know him, but I wonder how his name can reach out to those pirates who aren't in GL or in 1st part of GL.

Seeing as how Impel Down is the jail in One Piece, I would assume that the Jailers would be rather infamous to the pirates as much as the prison itself. And seeing as how Shiryu is said to have strength comparable to Magellan, I'm sure his name would come up as well. I'm sure pirates would want to be aware of the people strong enough to keep legends like Ace, Crocoboy, Jinbe, and other infamous powerhouses in check.

And if Shiryu is as skilled a swordsman as we think, I'm sure Mihawk will know his name similar to how he knew Vista's.

MBVC
October 30, 2013, 07:55 PM
" There is no way that someone of Mihawk-lvl strength is just out there somewhere in a small village cutting onions."


Well, Shiryu almost rotted inside his cell.

Anyway, this debate goes like the way of the Mobius strip, with Shanks' fans vs Mihawk's fans argue until Oda shows us what we want and maybe more hopefully.

My answer to this topic is that Hawkeye is around the admiral level which is below Kong, Garp and Sengoku who fought kinda evenly with any yonkou I guess.

I really wonder why Hawkeye joined the WG; because unlike DD, he doesn't need anything from the WG, his reason is indeed intriguing. If he joined the WG just to get info for Shanks then I'll either :worship2 or :jawdrop not sure which one though.

TheLuffySmile
October 30, 2013, 09:20 PM
^ Yeah he almost rotted in his cell, after being an infamous Head Jailer of Impel Down. Being put there for slaughtering countless prisoners for joy. Biiiig difference from some dude sittin by his house cutting onions.

Schabrak
October 31, 2013, 08:45 AM
Shanks is a swordsman , but he does have impressive Haki, did you know Haki can be used to imbue swords?:)
In a all-out-fight between shanks and mihawk, shanks will still lose, even with his monster haki.
Thats how strong mihawk is, and why he has the title of strongest swordsman, and also why hes the ultimate goal for zoro ever since the beginning.
It aint shanks that zoro wants to beat, its mihawk.

Sure Shanks hes very strong and is a younko and is very respected, however he still will lose from mihawk combat wise 1 on 1.

Story wise Mihawk should be as strong or stronger then most of the younko, because hes zoro's final goal.
Besides, being the strongest swordsman, means he is the strongest swordman, including shanks.
It doesnt mean hes the strongest overall though, i agree on that.

As for people who think shanks isnt a swordman, should explain their own theory why he isnt a swordman anymore?
Are you implying that Mihawk, the most feared swordsman around the world, can't imbued his sword with haki too?

A claim based on nothing but your imagination.

Stop making claims you can't back up at all.

When Luffy becomes PK, Zoro will have fought all the good swordman and beat them turning him into a contender for greatest swordsman, if he hasn't clashed with Mihawk by that time already. It doesn't say anything about him being weaker/stronger than the four mightiest pirates alive.

People mean he doesn't go around boasting and looking for a fight with other swordsman, of course he is still a swordsman and so are 1/3 or more of the whole fighting cast in OP. There are no axeman or spearman, those are all swordsman.

Wano Kuni is a country filled with swordsman, BB has strong swordsman in his crew, Marines have strong swordsman, Kirazu is one of these, Kaidou and Big Mam will have some of the best swordsman of the world too. There are countless swordsman to fight, all strong, all not easy matches for Mihawk or Zoro.

DutchPhoenix
October 31, 2013, 09:52 AM
i didnt said that mihawk cant put haki in his sword...

Schabrak
October 31, 2013, 10:18 AM
You mentioned that Shanks can as if that's something special for the top echelon of fighters in the OP world. Than it's followed up by that sentence that's not based on anything the manga has shown.

The strongest human alive at that time has clashed swords evenly, even if only for a second, with Shanks. Making him lose in every fight against Mihawk is not even reaching, that's pure fan fiction. How do you imagine someone could take that opinion seriously?

7pac
November 01, 2013, 06:04 AM
You mentioned that Shanks can as if that's something special for the top echelon of fighters in the OP world. Than it's followed up by that sentence that's not based on anything the manga has shown.

The strongest human alive at that time has clashed swords evenly, even if only for a second, with Shanks. Making him lose in every fight against Mihawk is not even reaching, that's pure fan fiction. How do you imagine someone could take that opinion seriously?

I don't know who said that, but I started this mihawk debate with eefrit.
What I was suggesting is merely that Mihawk is currently at the same level with shanks, not stronger not weaker. What others didn't like in my statement is the fact that basically mihawk is yonkou level.

Airgrimes
November 01, 2013, 09:08 AM
I don't know who said that, but I started this mihawk debate with eefrit.
What I was suggesting is merely that Mihawk is currently at the same level with shanks, not stronger not weaker. What others didn't like in my statement is the fact that basically mihawk is yonkou level.
I see. I would say I agree with your viewpoint on Mihawk. I think its a bit too far to say either is stronger due to the lack of evidence and the way Shanks has been extremely hyped.
It would be weird if Mihawk was superior to a Yonkou considering in the war, Whitebeard didn't give two shits about him.
Whitebeard looked at Mihawk with the same look he gave Shanks/Aokiji/Akainu etc.

I reckon Mihawk and Shanks are the same level.

eefrit
November 01, 2013, 10:33 AM
I don't know who said that, but I started this mihawk debate with eefrit.
What I was suggesting is merely that Mihawk is currently at the same level with shanks, not stronger not weaker. What others didn't like in my statement is the fact that basically mihawk is yonkou level.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned this


Now back to Mihawk.
IMO, but im 100% sure oda will show it. Mihawk > Admirals(Some)
Mihawk > Shanks.

The majority of your post on this topic don't come across like you actually believe that the two are equal. It seemed as if you were more biased towards Mihawk. And in the Yonkou thread, you argued that since Mihawk has the title of the Strongest Swordsman in the World, and Shanks and Rayleigh are swordsman, that makes Mihawk stronger than them because they don't have the title. Most of the people arguing against both you and DutchPhoenix believe they are equal. Since this thread has been bumped, no one except DutchPhoenix believes that one is superior to the other. I am and always have been in the "they are equal" camp. Which would indeed make Mihawk as strong as a Yonkou.

7pac
November 01, 2013, 12:21 PM
Earlier in the thread you mentioned this



The majority of your post on this topic don't come across like you actually believe that the two are equal. It seemed as if you were more biased towards Mihawk. And in the Yonkou thread, you argued that since Mihawk has the title of the Strongest Swordsman in the World, and Shanks and Rayleigh are swordsman, that makes Mihawk stronger than them because they don't have the title. Most of the people arguing against both you and DutchPhoenix believe they are equal. Since this thread has been bumped, no one except DutchPhoenix believes that one is superior to the other. I am and always have been in the "they are equal" camp. Which would indeed make Mihawk as strong as a Yonkou.



I admit I was a bit more leaning towards mihawk being stronger. I however re-read all of shanks appearances in the manga, and mihawks, What I came to believe is what other people mentioned in the thread, as the fact that mihawk is the better swordsman, but not necessarily better in an overall fight. I also admit I like mihawk a lot, partly because most people love shanks, and lol I do to, he's awesome, but it's a letdown for mihawk, who in my opinin is an awesome character to explore.
I kinda conviced myself that mihawk is stronger because of the fact he stopped dueling with shanks. Thought plot wise it would be weird if mihawk ended up being stronger. This little thing came to mind. In italian it means. " Don't Argue to be Right, Argue to Understand" Which is fair enough. Sorry Eefrit. :)
http://www.qbarz.it/pics/discutere-ragione-capire-peanuts-charlie-brown.jpg

eefrit
November 01, 2013, 01:03 PM
No need to apologize, it's all good. I'm rather fond of Mihawk as well. I think he's badass! There is no reason for me to think he isn't. That's also a good saying you posted. Now let's have a drink! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yYQXHCz1GQ0#t=114)

Deus Machina
January 03, 2014, 04:10 AM
Mihawk is not stronger than the Admirals. Yes he is at admiral level no doubt but not strong enough to beat them. People should not use his duel as Shanks to justify this. Mihawk had the skill and technique to take on Shanks as a swordsman. In a battle against the admirals he losses at high difficult or more.

Schabrak
January 03, 2014, 05:46 AM
And you justify opinion with what exactly? Your imagination only is seems.

Deus Machina
January 03, 2014, 06:14 AM
Marineford for one gave an indication of how strong the admirals were and there is nothing to suggest that Mihawk has the firepower to beat the admirals in a battle.

Schabrak
January 03, 2014, 06:21 AM
Mihawk gave an indication of how strong some of his "air" slashes are and there is nothing to suggest that the admirals couldn't be sliced into a million pieces with a haki induced attack from Dracule, leaving them crippled or dead on the floor.

I asked what you were basing it on, you didn't provide a single good argument/example though. Mihawk hiding his true power still is a clear indication that he is a monster of monsters, similar to Garp, who was held back talking about killing Akainu right then and there.

DutchPhoenix
January 03, 2014, 09:15 AM
Mihawk is not stronger than the Admirals. Yes he is at admiral level no doubt but not strong enough to beat them. People should not use his duel as Shanks to justify this. Mihawk had the skill and technique to take on Shanks as a swordsman. In a battle against the admirals he losses at high difficult or more.

Since mihawk is stronger then shanks is, ur saying shanks cant beat admirals either.

kkck
January 03, 2014, 09:27 AM
Well, at this point it is all speculation although I still would make the point that mihawk being beneath the admirals would make little sense plotwise. MIhawk remains zoro's goal as far as we know so his strength has to be considerably above current zoro for that to remain a valid plot point (which as far as I know it still is). So the question is, do luffy, zoro and even sanji have to beat the admirals at some point? Probably yes, not in the immediate future, but yes. Zoro is pretty much the equivalent to Rayleigh in the strawhats and even then we saw Rayleigh as an old man going up against kizaru which is quite something if we consider kizaru is not that old and probably way closer to his prime than Rayleigh was. If zoro at any point matches Rayleigh in his prime then odds are he will be well stronger than an admiral himself.... How would mihawk compare to Rayleigh from 2 years ago? If mihawk is merely a match for the guy then it is already enough for him to be a match to an admiral. If mihawk is stronger than rayleigh was two years ago then he would be more than a match to an admiral. Considering mihawk was at some point a rival to shanks and his future role in the story I would argue mihawk is in a position where he should be at least as strong as an admiral.

DutchPhoenix
January 03, 2014, 03:58 PM
you know if it wasnt for roger, rayleigh would have been the pirate king at his prime, hence the title dark king.
and since zoro is like rayleigh for luffy, and luffy will eventually be stronger then prime roger, safe to assume zoro will surpass prime rayleigh

llaubacher
January 03, 2014, 05:32 PM
Oh, made me laugh, seriously.

Mihawk in Marineford never actually showed what he is capable of. Only thing he kept on sending out were some cute lil air slashes. Tried the distance between him and Whitebeard, split the iceberg, played with Luffy. But he never actually did anything in madness or seriousness, did he? I for one think that he's the only Shichibukai capable of madafakin beating the Admirals. He's even with them, or! he is above them.

Silvers Rayleigh was the best swordsman of Roger's era, I suppose. Mihawk is of this. And so Zoro shall be of the upcoming one.
Can you imagine world's strongest swordsman under Admirals? Oh come on, he should be able to give trouble to Yonkou. Only difference between his title and Yonkou title is that Yonkou usually have mega big ass crews and allies, wheres the strongest swordsman seems to be only person at the moment. (Rayleigh was in Roger's crew and Zoro is in Luffy's, I admit that.) But their goal was, is and will be to be best swordsman, not a man conquering part of the New World. Power-wisely the same for me.

Mr. Ototo would be cut in piece by Mihawk, though Mihawk would suffer serious injuries, can't even be otherwise.

eefrit
January 03, 2014, 06:29 PM
Marineford for one gave an indication of how strong the admirals were and there is nothing to suggest that Mihawk has the firepower to beat the admirals in a battle.

Not really. Punk Hazard gave us an indication of how strong the Admirals potentially are. Marineford was just a sample buffet of how strong the veteran fighters are. Knowing what we know now about Punk Hazard and the now prevalent haki, we can assume that Oda held those characters back. Mihawk included.

That being said, I definitely don't see Mihawk being terribly superior to an Admiral or any of the Yonkou. As I've said time and time again he is most definitely equal to them. Well, Sakazuki, Kuzan, and Borsalino at least. It'd be rather lame if no one in the One Piece world could stand up to Mihawk.

Deus Machina
January 04, 2014, 03:06 AM
I cannot reply individually to you so before I will construct my points.
Shanks has been demonstrated to have on of the best haki of all active fighters in the universe. We know that Mihawk sort out Shanks who is not an atypical swordsman which proves that Shanks reputation on the sword was great. However unlike Mihawk Shanks has the advantage of haki. He can use KH to dodge moves and his stronger BH allows him to take on the future WSS slashes. The two had duels which means that either matches would have gone to either one.

This is why I said as a swordsman = Mihawk > Shanks and in power due to beastly haki Shanks > Mihawk. There is nothing to suggest that Miahwk has the firepower to beat admirals. The WB war showed the arsenal of Ads and it should be taken into account that they did not go all out. Kizaru did nothing and Inu is supposedly stronger while Aoikji was playing puppet with Jozu. I did not point PH as we did not see the actual fight but since you pointed it out fine.
I dare ask those who claim Mihawk is stronger than Admirals to provide proof. BTW how long ago was it when Shanks and Mihawk duelled? That's right around 12 years ago before the man lost his hand.

Are you telling me Shanks is as strong now as he was when he was 27 and did not get even stronger than he was?

DutchPhoenix
January 04, 2014, 04:20 AM
I cannot reply individually to you so before I will construct my points.
Shanks has been demonstrated to have on of the best haki of all active fighters in the universe. We know that Mihawk sort out Shanks who is not an atypical swordsman which proves that Shanks reputation on the sword was great. However unlike Mihawk Shanks has the advantage of haki. He can use KH to dodge moves and his stronger BH allows him to take on the future WSS slashes. The two had duels which means that either matches would have gone to either one.

This is why I said as a swordsman = Mihawk > Shanks and in power due to beastly haki Shanks > Mihawk. There is nothing to suggest that Miahwk has the firepower to beat admirals. The WB war showed the arsenal of Ads and it should be taken into account that they did not go all out. Kizaru did nothing and Inu is supposedly stronger while Aoikji was playing puppet with Jozu. I did not point PH as we did not see the actual fight but since you pointed it out fine.
I dare ask those who claim Mihawk is stronger than Admirals to provide proof. BTW how long ago was it when Shanks and Mihawk duelled? That's right around 12 years ago before the man lost his hand.

Are you telling me Shanks is as strong now as he was when he was 27 and did not get even stronger than he was?

You really think shanks isnt a swordsman just because mihawk has the title worlds most powerfull swordman?

kkck
January 04, 2014, 04:47 AM
I cannot reply individually to you so before I will construct my points.
Shanks has been demonstrated to have on of the best haki of all active fighters in the universe. We know that Mihawk sort out Shanks who is not an atypical swordsman which proves that Shanks reputation on the sword was great. However unlike Mihawk Shanks has the advantage of haki. He can use KH to dodge moves and his stronger BH allows him to take on the future WSS slashes. The two had duels which means that either matches would have gone to either one.

This is why I said as a swordsman = Mihawk > Shanks and in power due to beastly haki Shanks > Mihawk. There is nothing to suggest that Miahwk has the firepower to beat admirals. The WB war showed the arsenal of Ads and it should be taken into account that they did not go all out. Kizaru did nothing and Inu is supposedly stronger while Aoikji was playing puppet with Jozu. I did not point PH as we did not see the actual fight but since you pointed it out fine.
I dare ask those who claim Mihawk is stronger than Admirals to provide proof. BTW how long ago was it when Shanks and Mihawk duelled? That's right around 12 years ago before the man lost his hand.

Are you telling me Shanks is as strong now as he was when he was 27 and did not get even stronger than he was?

We don't even know if shanks has a haki advantage. Shanks is without a doubt a powerful haki user and oda has made the point that shanks has very strong conqueror's haki however non of that is by any means an indication of mihawk's haki prowess (although it is a pretty safe bet that mihawk himself is a pretty exceptional haki user). Without a doubt mihawk has at least mastery over observation and armor haki, whether he has the kings disposition and how his haki prowess compares to shanks remains to be seen. Shanks could have gotten stronger but the thing is, so could mihawk. Mihawk simply took a different route than shanks.

You are right but the thing goes both ways, you can't proof shanks is the stronger one either. Hence why I go with context and comparisons with the roles with other characters. Being zoro's ultimate goal, Rayleigh's strength and the amount of power the monster trio should have by the time they reach their potential are IMO indications that Mihawk should be at least comparable to the top dogs around. I mean, what good would zoro be if his ultimate goal as second only to the pirate king was to defeat some guy who could not even match an admiral? Or WB's main commanders? Rayleigh as a weakened old man was at least a match for kizaru, who knows what he could have done in his prime....

Schabrak
January 04, 2014, 04:53 AM
Sorry, but are you reading a different manga from everybody else?


I cannot reply individually to you so before I will construct my points.
Shanks has been demonstrated to have on of the best haki of all active fighters in the universe. We know that Mihawk sort out Shanks who is not an atypical swordsman which proves that Shanks reputation on the sword was great.
Yeah every single reader knows that the Yonkou fighting with a sword and having duells with the Mihawk in the past is a good swordsman himself. That's no argument for/against Mihawk still, none, whatsoever.


However unlike Mihawk Shanks has the advantage of haki.
Again, how would you know that if Mihawk didn't even have to use haki once until now? Be fucking sure that he is a monstrous haki user as well or he wouldn't be the most feared pirate without a crew in the whole world, he wouldn't be known as the Greatest Swordsman in the World, if he wasn't capable of fighting other end game haki combatants/swordsmen. Has that infiltrate into your mind yet?


He can use KH to dodge moves and his stronger BH allows him to take on the future WSS slashes. The two had duels which means that either matches would have gone to either one.
What does this have to do with anything?


There is nothing to suggest that Miahwk has the firepower to beat admirals.

...there is nothing to suggest that the admirals couldn't be sliced into a million pieces with a haki induced attack from Dracule, leaving them crippled or dead on the floor.
See what I did here? I pointed out that we know nothing about his full capabilities, so neither you or I have made an argument for any party here. But wait, we have. We know that Mihawk is the final enemy of Zoro most likely, who holds his most desired position in the world, at the top of the swordsmen. We know that Mihawk hasn't fought using all of his skills even once during all his panel time in the manga, he simply never did release strong attacks in close combat and he never did openly use haki attacks to attack a Devil Fruit user. All that hints to him having an unlimited potential yet, something only reached by other Yonkou, who haven't been shown fighting to the end too. We have seen Akainu go wild, we have seen him bloodthirsty rampaging through the remaining WB members, we have seen him rain down magma from above on the whole bay, we have seen him give his all again Newgate. We have seen his limits fighting against the at the time ill, yet most powerful/strongest man of the world and get quake slapped into the Earth's crust.


The WB war showed the arsenal of Ads and it should be taken into account that they did not go all out. Kizaru did nothing and Inu is supposedly stronger while Aoikji was playing puppet with Jozu.
Admirals and the top WB commanders were shown to be pretty equal until they were all distracted by their father.


I dare ask those who claim Mihawk is stronger than Admirals to provide proof.
I dare of you to do the same for the argument of Admirals vs Mihawk. Please be so nice and don't ask for things you can't provide yourself.


BTW how long ago was it when Shanks and Mihawk duelled? That's right around 12 years ago before the man lost his hand.
Are you telling me Shanks is as strong now as he was when he was 27 and did not get even stronger than he was?
As before, what does this have to do with anything?
Are you telling me Dracule is as strong now as he was when he was 31 and did not get even stronger than he was before?


everyone knows shanks is a swordsman, however he doesnt hold the title of the strongest swordsman.
I think "Most Powerful" or "Greatest" is the better translation.

DutchPhoenix
January 04, 2014, 10:06 AM
everyone knows shanks is a swordsman, however he doesnt hold the title of the strongest swordsman.

M3J
January 04, 2014, 12:44 PM
I cannot reply individually to you so before I will construct my points.
Shanks has been demonstrated to have on of the best haki of all active fighters in the universe. We know that Mihawk sort out Shanks who is not an atypical swordsman which proves that Shanks reputation on the sword was great. However unlike Mihawk Shanks has the advantage of haki. He can use KH to dodge moves and his stronger BH allows him to take on the future WSS slashes. The two had duels which means that either matches would have gone to either one.

This is why I said as a swordsman = Mihawk > Shanks and in power due to beastly haki Shanks > Mihawk. There is nothing to suggest that Miahwk has the firepower to beat admirals. The WB war showed the arsenal of Ads and it should be taken into account that they did not go all out. Kizaru did nothing and Inu is supposedly stronger while Aoikji was playing puppet with Jozu. I did not point PH as we did not see the actual fight but since you pointed it out fine.
I dare ask those who claim Mihawk is stronger than Admirals to provide proof. BTW how long ago was it when Shanks and Mihawk duelled? That's right around 12 years ago before the man lost his hand.

Are you telling me Shanks is as strong now as he was when he was 27 and did not get even stronger than he was?
I enjoyed this fan fiction.

I also dare ask you to provide proof that Mihawk ISN'T stronger than the admirals or at least, one of them. I don't recall anything that implies Mihawk or the admirals/an admiral is stronger.

everyone knows shanks is a swordsman, however he doesnt hold the title of the strongest swordsman.

Haven't they tied in power though?

DutchPhoenix
January 04, 2014, 06:05 PM
they did untill shanks lost an arm, currently mihawk holds the title of strongest swordsman alive stated by oda.

TheLuffySmile
January 04, 2014, 06:19 PM
they did untill shanks lost an arm, currently mihawk holds the title of strongest swordsman alive stated by oda. Oda also stated that Shanks' power didn't decrease after losing an arm.

eefrit
January 04, 2014, 06:37 PM
Oda also stated that Shanks' power didn't decrease after losing an arm.

Yep. For all we know, Shanks could very well be a contender for the title of World's Greatest Swordsman, but because Mihawk doesn't want to fight a one armed man, they'll never get to prove who is the better swordsman.

Deus Machina
January 04, 2014, 07:11 PM
You really think shanks isnt a swordsman just because mihawk has the title worlds most powerfull swordman?

The whole Shanks Mihawk scenario is like that of Zoro & Law. Roronoa Zoro is the better swordsman as he has the skill and power. However Law has finesse and the advantage of his DF ability and all it's haxed glory. When it comes to overall power he edges Zoro.

The same with Shanks & Mihawk. However instead of OpeOpe Shanks has haki. Shanks has had an entire decade to grow in power. OP people hit thre primes at 35 and maintain this if not grow further.Shanks is stronger than Mihawk but the latter is the better swordsman.

At the rest of the forum. While. I may lack proof of my statements I am using logic to construct my points. Show me where you got the idea that Mihawk is stronger than an admiral. Based on a twelve year fight? I also said Shanks edges. Mihawk in haki. That does not mean that Mihawk has none. The admirals have more going for the offensively they can use haki have the advantage of their fruits and rokushiki. All Mihawk has shown is a slash and that makes him above top tier?

People above Ads have been some of Rodger generation and from the current one Shanks has proved that he is slightly above them. I dare say the Yonkos are equal to them and the other top tiers are slightly below them. Shanks has been hinted to be a haki beast as per the extent of his HH. What about Mihawk?

DutchPhoenix
January 05, 2014, 04:47 AM
Both shanks and mihawk have haki and shanks doesnt have a DF

Even if shanks didnt get weaker by losing an arm, his growth rate must have been less then it was capable off.

Both shanks and mihawk are known swordsman, but shanks is not stronger then mihawk, even if he is an emperor of has very strong kings haki.
We dont know how shanks other 2 haki types will hold up against those of mihawk.
If mihawk wasnt stronger, oda would have given shanks the title, but he didnt.
So even if you think shanks is cooler, you cannot denie the fact that the writer of this manga made mihawk the stronger one simply by giving the title.

TheLuffySmile
January 05, 2014, 10:50 AM
Another thing. Mihawk's blade has a hilt made for two-handed combat, whilst Shanks' is a sabre, made for one-handed combat.

So I actually doubt that his growth rate was stunted at all.

Schabrak
January 05, 2014, 11:17 AM
Shanks lost his main sword hand if you look at the position of the sheath.

Kaiten
January 05, 2014, 11:33 AM
Shanks is a Yonkou, one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World. Even Sengoku spoke to him with respect, despite Shanks being a pirate. His arrival marked the end of the War. None of the combatants seemed interested in fighting another Yonkou. I doubt Shanks "growth rate" was stunted, due to his handicap.

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 AM ----------

Being a better swordsman does not make Mihawk stronger. All it means is that Mihawk is more skilled at one particular specialty. Saying swordsmanship along makes Mihawk stronger is akin to saying Newton was a superior scientist than only because he was better at math. That would be true (Newton developed calculus, Einstein needed help with Non-Euclidean geometry from his old professor when writing General Relativity), but it would also ignore all of their other skills and accomplishments. If Mihawk is stronger based on his superior skill as a swordsman, that implies his swordsmanship is not only stronger than Shank's swordsmanship, it is stronger than all of Shanks abilities.

DutchPhoenix
January 05, 2014, 11:47 AM
SO if shanks fighting style isnt swordfight, then what does he do? brawler with 1 arm? lolol

TheLuffySmile
January 05, 2014, 11:56 AM
Shanks lost his main sword hand if you look at the position of the sheath.
So? Oda still stated that Shanks didn't lose any power at all. Even if he lost his main arm.

DutchPhoenix
January 05, 2014, 12:44 PM
So? Oda still stated that Shanks didn't lose any power at all. Even if he lost his main arm.

true, but its fair to assume his growth rate has been slowed down, since its logic that he'd be even stronger today if he had both arms

for sample a powerscale

from 1 too 100

shanks had a power of 75 when he had both arms
mihawk had a power of 75

shanks lost an arm, however he became stronger and has a power of 90
mihawk became stronger and has a power of 99
Shanks could have a power of 100 if he didnt lose an arm.

TheLuffySmile
January 05, 2014, 03:39 PM
true, but its fair to assume his growth rate has been slowed down, since its logic that he'd be even stronger today if he had both arms

for sample a powerscale

from 1 too 100

shanks had a power of 75 when he had both arms
mihawk had a power of 75

shanks lost an arm, however he became stronger and has a power of 90
mihawk became stronger and has a power of 99
Shanks could have a power of 100 if he didnt lose an arm.
That's a completely baseless argument. Powerscaling is pretty much always irrelevant in OP since there are so many factors to weigh in. And why is it fair to assume that? Shanks only uses a one-hand swordstyle, and along with Oda's statement, nothing has given me the impression of Shanks being weakened in any way by the loss of his arm.

Kaiten
January 05, 2014, 04:06 PM
SO if shanks fighting style isnt swordfight, then what does he do? brawler with 1 arm? lolol

Even with only one arm he was able to parry a blow from Whitebeard. (http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2541-14/one-piece/chapter-434.html) He also was able to block Akainu's (http://www.mangapanda.com/103-49210-12/one-piece/chapter-579.html) fist, mid-strike, with his logia ability activated. Just because Shanks has been shown using a sword, that does not mean he is primarily a swordsman. Shanks has not been shown fighting for more than a panel, or two, at a time. His actual combat style is still a secret. He has been shown as a masterful haki user, both armament and conquerors. There is almost no chance that Shanks is totally reliant on swordplay. It probably is merely one part of his arsenal. He is a Yonkou, shown to be roughly equal in strength to Whitebeard and Akainu. Mihawk most likely is not on that level. If he is, it has never been hinted in the manga. Furthermore, he and Shanks are on friendly terms. They may have fought in the past, but it is unlikely they will ever fight again.

DutchPhoenix
January 05, 2014, 05:36 PM
shanks fighting style isnt a secret, hes a swordsman.

Schabrak
January 05, 2014, 05:48 PM
If he was having equal duells with Mihawk in the past he definitely is a swordsman, it's not like Oda is hiding it by letting him always use a sword and keeping his past with Dracule in mind. Maybe Zoro isn't a swordsman too, he sometimes uses the palm of his hand to crush skulls too. He's secretly a skullcrushingman. :P


That's a completely baseless argument. Powerscaling is pretty much always irrelevant in OP since there are so many factors to weigh in. And why is it fair to assume that? Shanks only uses a one-hand swordstyle, and along with Oda's statement, nothing has given me the impression of Shanks being weakened in any way by the loss of his arm.
In her defense, she wrote for example so those aren't direct values and losing the main hand can be highly important, like it or not, OP is that realistic still.

TheLuffySmile
January 05, 2014, 11:18 PM
If he was having equal duells with Mihawk in the past he definitely is a swordsman, it's not like Oda is hiding it by letting him always use a sword and keeping his past with Dracule in mind. Maybe Zoro isn't a swordsman too, he sometimes uses the palm of his hand to crush skulls too. He's secretly a skullcrushingman. :P


In her defense, she wrote for example so those aren't direct values and losing the main hand can be highly important, like it or not, OP is that realistic still.
Yes, it can be highly important. But since Oda himself stated that it did not decrease Shanks' power even the slightest is proof enough for me. He is just as strong as he would have been with both arms.

M3J
January 06, 2014, 12:56 PM
Nothing implies Mihawk is stronger or weaker than the admirals. He and Shanks rivaled each other in swordsmanship, but that was ages ago. Mihawk is likely stronger but he can still be beaten by Shanks. It doesn't look like Mihawk has an ambition to become the pirate king, he only wants to be the best swordsman. There's still a chance he could beat an admiral. Just as Shanks power is unknown, so is Mihawk's. Even Luffy was unable to do anything to Mihawk, who didn't have a devil fruit power or seemed to use haki for defense.

DutchPhoenix
January 06, 2014, 01:00 PM
Yes, it can be highly important. But since Oda himself stated that it did not decrease Shanks' power even the slightest is proof enough for me. He is just as strong as he would have been with both arms.

he didnt become weaker, but theres no way losing ur dominant arm wouldnt affect a persons growth.
Its like if sanji would lose a leg at the beginning of his training, he would still be stronger then he was pre-time skip, but he'd be stronger if he didnt lose it.

M3J
January 06, 2014, 01:53 PM
you can't compare losing an arm to losing a leg, though. If Sanji lost his leg, he'd weak because he can't move or fight. If he lost an arm, he'd still get stronger, but not as strong as he could become, probably. If anyone loses a leg, he loses tons of power. Just look at Zeff, and how he couldn't fight much against Krieg and his pirates. If Luffy or Zoro lost an arm, they can still fight and compensate for that, but not if they lose a leg.

BASED Shinigami
January 06, 2014, 03:39 PM
Let's look at four factors:

1. Admirals acknowledged his strength during the war.
2. Fought Shanks numerous times in the past.
3. Wrecked Jinbe.
4. Fought evenly against Vista.

Taking those four factors into consideration, I'll say Mihawk is more or less stronger than a marine admiral. Also, someone powerful enough to challenge a Yonko. That's it.

eefrit
January 06, 2014, 04:06 PM
you can't compare losing an arm to losing a leg, though. If Sanji lost his leg, he'd weak because he can't move or fight. If he lost an arm, he'd still get stronger, but not as strong as he could become, probably. If anyone loses a leg, he loses tons of power. Just look at Zeff, and how he couldn't fight much against Krieg and his pirates. If Luffy or Zoro lost an arm, they can still fight and compensate for that, but not if they lose a leg.

I don't know, Aokiji seems to be doing just fine without his leg. Zeff is an interesting case. Losing a leg didn't weaken him, losing his crew did. He was the first example of someone who lost his dream and ambition because of his crew's death. We eventually saw the same situation with Moriah, a man who had all his limbs intact. I'd say a lot of it has to deal with ambition and making sure you don't take any or can endure losses on the sea.

TheLuffySmile
January 06, 2014, 05:09 PM
I don't know, Aokiji seems to be doing just fine without his leg. Zeff is an interesting case. Losing a leg didn't weaken him, losing his crew did. He was the first example of someone who lost his dream and ambition because of his crew's death. We eventually saw the same situation with Moriah, a man who had all his limbs intact. I'd say a lot of it has to deal with ambition and making sure you don't take any or can endure losses on the sea.

Gin was able to get the drop on Zeff only because of the latters wooden leg. If he had two healthy legs, Gin would not have been much of a threat to him (yes, I can agree that it's a little assumptive but I stand by it). Zeff didn't lose his strength when he lost his crew, he just lost his reason to sail the seas. Because he felt that without his comrades, it would have been for naught.

Kuzan is able to handle his handicap so well because of his ingenuity and Devil fruit. He's made an ice prosthesis that works just like a regular leg would.

Moriah however is a whole other story. He was so psychologically damaged by the utter defeat and slaughter of his crew by the hands of Kaido. He started using his Devil fruit to make zombies because he was so afraid of losing his comrades all over again, he wanted an army of zombies that didn't feel pain.

But I agree to a certain degree with your last statement. A lot of people's psyches have been crushed by defeat and loss.

Schabrak
January 06, 2014, 05:17 PM
Kuzan can also create feet from ice... Shanks is powered by ambition and his hope in Luffy, but is that enough to reach the potential he had with two hands?

RichardMNixon
January 06, 2014, 06:05 PM
I don't understand why people latch on to Mihawk's "World's Strongest Swordsman" title so voraciously, but ignore Shanks "title" as a Yonkou. No one calls him that out of pity. If having one arm prevented Shanks from being strong, then it would have prevented him from being a Yonkou. He's silly strong. Sengoku-scared-to-fight-him strong. If you want to put Mihawk on the same level as Shanks, do so knowing you're also putting Mihawk on the same level as Whitebeard, Kaidou, and Big Mom.


3. Wrecked Jinbe.
Not a huge deal, but do note that Mihawk vs. Jinbei was anime-only filler.

Kaishaku
January 06, 2014, 06:38 PM
I very much doubt that the title of the strongest Swordsman would be handed to Mihawk if he didn't deserve it. Let alone him keeping it. He doesn't strike me as a fraud. However, I do consider the dilemma between him and Shanks like this:
Although he and Shanks still are on comparable levels, the title of the strongest remains with Mihawk for two reasons: First Shanks has no interest in fighting him or claiming the title (which I doubt would be a pure formality anyhow). Second, as Mihawk stated, he has no interest in fighting Shanks now that hes crippled. Even though it didn't handicap him strength-wise, its possible that Mihawk still would see it as an insult to his honor to fight a one-armed man. Possibly Shanks just accepts that, too.

eefrit
January 06, 2014, 06:45 PM
Gin was able to get the drop on Zeff only because of the latters wooden leg. If he had two healthy legs, Gin would not have been much of a threat to him (yes, I can agree that it's a little assumptive but I stand by it). Zeff didn't lose his strength when he lost his crew, he just lost his reason to sail the seas. Because he felt that without his comrades, it would have been for naught.

I personally believe he did lose strength, or at least the drive to keep growing in strength, when his crew died. To me it appears that he let his skills rust and he didn't continue to develop them despite his handicap, unlike Shanks who didn't let his loss of an arm deter his dreams of sailing the seas(it helps that his crew didn't die as well). Instead, he spent his time focusing on building and running the Baratie and only passing his technique to Sanji.

Had things turned out differently and Zeff loss his leg, but managed to keep his crew, I could see him simply finding a stronger material to replace his lost leg with so that his kicking strength wouldn't be halved.



Kuzan is able to handle his handicap so well because of his ingenuity and Devil fruit. He's made an ice prosthesis that works just like a regular leg would.

Zeff did as well though(granted one of poor quality), but his functions as a regular leg too. MJ3 mentioned that anyone who loses a leg, losses a ton of power, and I mentioned Aokiji as someone who lost a leg and kept his power. You can throw Shiki in that category as well.


Moriah however is a whole other story. He was so psychologically damaged by the utter defeat and slaughter of his crew by the hands of Kaido. He started using his Devil fruit to make zombies because he was so afraid of losing his comrades all over again, he wanted an army of zombies that didn't feel pain.

I used him as an example because it shows that a pirate losing his crew does have an effect on his psyche and that can extend to his strength. We saw the same thing happen to Luffy, although he was able to realize that his crew was alive and well, unlike Moriah, until he lost Ace, where, again, he realized he still had things to live for(his crew). Moriah switched his goal up and stopped focusing on his own power, instead relying on others.

Shanks still has things to do and reasons to live for. His crew and Luffy are alive and well and he is aiming to be the Pirate King(possibly). Zeff lost his crew, his ship, and his dream to find the All Blue himself. Shanks continued to grow. Zeff didn't.


Kuzan can also create feet from ice... Shanks is powered by ambition and his hope in Luffy, but is that enough to reach the potential he had with two hands?

I don't see why not. Just because one path is closed, doesn't mean all paths are closed. Would he have to work harder? Most definitely, but it can be done. Especially with his ambition being as high as it is.

Long story, short...losing a limb in One Piece doesn't appear to mean squat when it comes to certain folk, so Shanks can still potentially go toe to toe with Mihawk when it comes to sword technique.


Even though it didn't handicap him strength-wise, its possible that Mihawk still would see it as an insult to his honor to fight a one-armed man. Possibly Shanks just accepts that, too.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Phil-Dunphy.gif

BASED Shinigami
January 07, 2014, 11:43 AM
Not a huge deal, but do note that Mihawk vs. Jinbei was anime-only filler.

True, but I don't think it takes too much away from my main points. Anyway, thanks for pointing that out.

DutchPhoenix
January 07, 2014, 12:40 PM
Sure shanks can still go toe to toe with mihawk in combat, but he wont win though.

M3J
January 07, 2014, 01:34 PM
I don't know, Aokiji seems to be doing just fine without his leg. Zeff is an interesting case. Losing a leg didn't weaken him, losing his crew did. He was the first example of someone who lost his dream and ambition because of his crew's death. We eventually saw the same situation with Moriah, a man who had all his limbs intact. I'd say a lot of it has to deal with ambition and making sure you don't take any or can endure losses on the sea.
Aokiji was able to replace his leg by using an ice leg, which seems to act just like a real leg. But we don't know just how fine he's doing, all we saw was that he stopped Doflamingo from killing Smoker. Being a logia devil fruit user would help Aokiji here. If Shanks is a logia, then that might explain why he's a Yonkou despite not having an arm. However, Zeff being substantially weaker wasn't due to losing his crewmates, it was due to losing his leg. So yeah, can't compare losing a leg to losing an arm, because legs provide support. Without one, you won't have the same power as you did before. with arms though, it can be different as you can train and use one arm to fight.

We don't know how powerful Shanks was before he lost his arm... I don't think we even know whether he was established yet or not. If he was stronger back then than he is now, in terms of fighting, then that would put Mihawk at Yonkou level.

As for why he's not opposing a Yonkou or Marine if he truly is that strong... the only reason why the Yonkou, shichibukai, and the Marines aren't trying to wipe each other out is because they'd suffer losses due to the size of the crews. I doubt even Mihawk can take on an entire crew of a Yonkou by himself.

I don't understand why people latch on to Mihawk's "World's Strongest Swordsman" title so voraciously, but ignore Shanks "title" as a Yonkou. No one calls him that out of pity. If having one arm prevented Shanks from being strong, then it would have prevented him from being a Yonkou. He's silly strong. Sengoku-scared-to-fight-him strong. If you want to put Mihawk on the same level as Shanks, do so knowing you're also putting Mihawk on the same level as Whitebeard, Kaidou, and Big Mom.


Not a huge deal, but do note that Mihawk vs. Jinbei was anime-only filler.
I don't th ink Sengoku was scared to fight him, he just wanted to avoid any more losses. While Sengoku could have taken on Shanks, Shanks's crew would be too powerful for most Marines to beat, especially given how damaged and exhausted they were. Sengoku just made a wise decision, unlike Akainu.

I don't see what's wrong with putting Mihawk on the same level as Kaidou and Big Mom, given we dont' know how strong they are. We just know they're stronger than any opponent we've seen so far, given the status.

eefrit
January 07, 2014, 02:20 PM
Aokiji was able to replace his leg by using an ice leg, which seems to act just like a real leg. But we don't know just how fine he's doing, all we saw was that he stopped Doflamingo from killing Smoker. Being a logia devil fruit user would help Aokiji here. If Shanks is a logia, then that might explain why he's a Yonkou despite not having an arm. However, Zeff being substantially weaker wasn't due to losing his crewmates, it was due to losing his leg. So yeah, can't compare losing a leg to losing an arm, because legs provide support. Without one, you won't have the same power as you did before. with arms though, it can be different as you can train and use one arm to fight.

We don't know how powerful Shanks was before he lost his arm... I don't think we even know whether he was established yet or not. If he was stronger back then than he is now, in terms of fighting, then that would put Mihawk at Yonkou level.

There is no difference in function between Zeff and Aokiji's prosthesis though. Both act as support in place of their missing limb. Aokiji's is just more detailed. He still doesn't have muscles, joints, etc. that allows it to function like a leg. And Aokiji still has the muscles in the rest of his body. He should still be a physical monster. Losing one leg isn't going to make those muscles suffer, unless he just gave up and let those muscles atrophy. Zeff on the other hand gave up being a pirate because of his lost crew and probably hadn't fought in years. Again, had he not gave up, he would have been able to create a peg leg out of stronger material and keep trucking. Maybe even get a cybernetic leg sometime down the line. On that note, we should probably move this discussion elsewhere or just let it be since it's not really about Mihawk anymore.

As for Shanks and Mihawk, I think they were established well before that, seeing as how Whitebeard kept tabs on them on their duel. I'm sure he is stronger now than he was back then. He wasn't even in his prime at that time.

As for Mihawk not challenging Yonkou or Marines? Why should he? They leave him alone and he leaves them alone. No real reason to get in each others hair if we're minding our own business. Mihawk always struck me as neutral for the most part. Don't start none, won't be none.

Schabrak
January 07, 2014, 04:06 PM
Being an ice-man he likely will be able to use his feet like normal feet too, he will just have to stay in that ice form. It's also as hard as any of his ice attacks, so no, it's definitely not the same as Zeff.

Airgrimes
January 07, 2014, 07:48 PM
There is no difference in function between Zeff and Aokiji's prosthesis though. Both act as support in place of their missing limb. Aokiji's is just more detailed. He still doesn't have muscles, joints, etc. that allows it to function like a leg.
In all fairness, Crocodile made sand into things the functioned how he wanted them too without much effort.
So did other Logias like Ace and Monet.
I think Aokiji can effortlessly make a foot that is efficient for running around quickly in.

Not the same as Zeff who has a peg leg. Whereas Aokiji's leg can do anything a human leg can with his Logia capabilities.

eefrit
January 07, 2014, 08:25 PM
You guys are killin' me, lol.

My point is, I don't believe losing a leg doesn't mean one loses power, as M3J had posted earlier. I know Aokiji has a foot for his ice prosthesis. I know that the quality and durability of his prosthesis is higher than that of Zeff's. When I was comparing the two, I meant that there is no difference in the main function of their prosthetics, which is to support their body. I know Aokiji's "leg" would work a lot better in battle than Zeff's, it just doesn't have the ability to completely control certain parts of it, like ankles, toes, calf muscles, etc (as far as I know). I'm just talking about support. Although, Zeff has shown the ability to jump (rather high) with it and is still strong enough to generate enough power to douse flames and stop attacks in mid air.

DutchPhoenix
January 08, 2014, 08:49 AM
Its simple for me

Mihawk is the worlds most powerfull swordsman, stated by oda himself, the writer of this manga.
Shanks is a swordsman, since he doesnt have the title, therefor loses by default in a 1 on 1 match, when both go all out.

Since whitebeards death, he might very well be the strongest person in OP currently.

Schabrak
January 08, 2014, 10:03 AM
You seem to forget Blackbeard and his growth during the timeskip.

Airgrimes
January 08, 2014, 11:20 AM
Since whitebeards death, he might very well be the strongest person in OP currently.
You've gotta chill out.
You're reasoning was fine until now.

I'll tell you this now, due to the way the storyline has been written, there isn't a chance in hell Mihawk is strongest in the series.
Mihawk is Yonkou level. Sure.
We don't know the strength of all the other Yonkou's.
We don't know the strength of the Gorosei. We don't know the strength of Dragon. We don't know the strength of Kong.

I'm pretty confident he isn't the strongest in OP currently.
WB never even broke a single sweat on the thought of him.
Nobody referenced Mihawk being 2nd strongest in that war.

DutchPhoenix
January 08, 2014, 12:04 PM
You've gotta chill out.
You're reasoning was fine until now.

I'll tell you this now, due to the way the storyline has been written, there isn't a chance in hell Mihawk is strongest in the series.
Mihawk is Yonkou level. Sure.
We don't know the strength of all the other Yonkou's.
We don't know the strength of the Gorosei. We don't know the strength of Dragon. We don't know the strength of Kong.

I'm pretty confident he isn't the strongest in OP currently.
WB never even broke a single sweat on the thought of him.
Nobody referenced Mihawk being 2nd strongest in that war.

Mihawk wasnt even sure if WB was actually stronger then he was.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-22774-12/one-piece/chapter-553.html

Impossibility
January 08, 2014, 12:17 PM
Mihawk wasnt even sure if WB was actually stronger then he was.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-22774-12/one-piece/chapter-553.html

Nope, he was sure. He just wanted to see how much stronger WB was. Then Jozu showed up and stopped his test, making it very clear that he was a long way from the top.

kkck
January 08, 2014, 12:22 PM
To be honest I don't think a yonko necessarily has to be as strong as WB or even the admirals. They should be able to put up a fight but the yonko themselves are huge threats for reasons entirely different of their strength. Strength is without a doubt important however the issue here is not just that, what makes a yonko is the number of subordinates and resources they manage. For all we know there could be a number of people capable of matching the yonko or admirals out there who simply have not yet been able to do something like gathering a proper crew. Perhaps the case can be made that doflamingo is roughly in this boat. He could be an actual match to an admiral or even a yonko but does not have the subordinates to actually make a stand against them. Even if he does have the strength of a yonko it does appear the strength of his crew is limited to some extent. Take vergo, wasn't he one of doflamingo's most important subordinates? Wasn't law originally meant to take the heard position in doflamingo's crew? Doflamingo was easily able to foderize law who was stronger than vergo and sanji who even injured was able to go toe to toe with vergo (although neither got to using their full power). Can you imagine doflamingo attempting to take on the yonko if his top 3 subordinates are around comparable to vergo in terms of strength? Franky is supposedly fighting doflamingo's main combat squad... Assuming they match franky they would at most have ok strength for regular crewmembers in the new world. They would still be a far cry from WB's commanders or shank's main crewmembers. The situation is specially sad if we consider they are not even a new crew, they have been around for quite some time.

Seeing things this way perhaps the case can be made that within the context of what he wanted to achieve doflamingo is actually a failed pirate. He has insane strength himself, perhaps he could even match an admiral but 10 years of being in the grand line did not allow him to become what he wanted, the PK (at least he seems to be aiming for that so far). The arc is remarkably similar to alabasta in this regard with the main villain being a failure even if he had a high position. So seeing doflamingo failed to become a gold medalist on his own he would have turned to more underhanded methods even by pirate standards. He got control of the underworld and sells stuff for everyone however he is still not a match for the yonko or the big players around. He probably aims to use his influence to take over a yonko at least however his method, while smart, is still an indication that he is not good enough to do it the proper way so to speak. Within the context of the series the PK has to be someone with the gigantic lead balls necessary to take on the world and come out on top while simultaneously not giving a damn. My theory is that doflamingo plans on using smiles and his power to take control over the people who eat the fruits however if we consider my previous point having to resort to that means he already failed in the grand scheme of things.

DutchPhoenix
January 08, 2014, 02:14 PM
Nope, he was sure. He just wanted to see how much stronger WB was. Then Jozu showed up and stopped his test, making it very clear that he was a long way from the top.

then admirals are also a very long way from the top
http://www.mangareader.net/103-22774-16/one-piece/chapter-553.html

Schabrak
January 08, 2014, 04:40 PM
Nope, he was sure. He just wanted to see how much stronger WB was. Then Jozu showed up and stopped his test, making it very clear that he was a long way from the top.
How does it make it clear that he's a "long way" from the top!? He can't be that far away being the most renowned swordfighter of the world and earlier rival to Shanks who was similarly strong as Whitebeard. Just wanted to point out that your shouldn't use such exaggeration, when it's obvious that the statement is completely wrong when you think it through for ten seconds.

M3J
January 08, 2014, 06:10 PM
Its simple for me

Mihawk is the worlds most powerfull swordsman, stated by oda himself, the writer of this manga.
Shanks is a swordsman, since he doesnt have the title, therefor loses by default in a 1 on 1 match, when both go all out.

Since whitebeards death, he might very well be the strongest person in OP currently.

Is there a definite proof that Mihawk is the most powerful swordsman or are you basing it on what the characters themselves said? Even though Shanks isn't the best swordsman it doesn't mean he'll lose if both go all out if he has other skills.

DutchPhoenix
January 08, 2014, 06:33 PM
Is there a definite proof that Mihawk is the most powerful swordsman or are you basing it on what the characters themselves said?.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2109-12/one-piece/chapter-50.html

M3J
January 08, 2014, 10:47 PM
That doesn't work for me, that's just a title. Either way, just because Mihawk might be the best swordsman doesn't necessarily mean he can beat Shanks. This isn't Dragon Ball Z.

DutchPhoenix
January 09, 2014, 05:37 AM
That doesn't work for me, that's just a title. Either way, just because Mihawk might be the best swordsman doesn't necessarily mean he can beat Shanks.

He can beat shanks, simply because shanks isnt the strongest swordsman in the world, unlike mihawk.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 06:24 AM
Oh stop it already! It's almost like you had anything of worth past the chapter 50 description block, a info 15+ years old already.

Impossibility
January 09, 2014, 09:32 AM
then admirals are also a very long way from the top
http://www.mangareader.net/103-22774-16/one-piece/chapter-553.html

Not something I'd necessarily disagree with.



How does it make it clear that he's a "long way" from the top!? He can't be that far away being the most renowned swordfighter of the world and earlier rival to Shanks who was similarly strong as Whitebeard. Just wanted to point out that your shouldn't use such exaggeration, when it's obvious that the statement is completely wrong when you think it through for ten seconds.

Simply being Shanks earlier rival doesn't mean that he was close to Whitebeard in ability or power. WB showed that he was superior to everyone involved, most by a sizeable margin, at that point, including Akainu. If it weren't for Squardo's betrayal, WB would have been even more primed for action.

DutchPhoenix
January 09, 2014, 09:35 AM
Oh stop it already! It's almost like you had anything of worth past the chapter 50 description block, a info 15+ years old already.

alright, but regardless if old info or not, its still legit.
http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/700/16



Not something I'd necessarily disagree with.


Same goes for shanks then aswell.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 12:31 PM
It doesn't change the words of Mihawk not wanting to fight a one-armed Shanks. Dracule disqualified him as a rival in swordmanship, that doesn't mean that a full blown fight with all their abilities would automatically end in Hawekeye's favour, it means that Shanks might not be able to use 100% of his two potential as a swordsman without his main sword hand.



Simply being Shanks earlier rival doesn't mean that he was close to Whitebeard in ability or power. WB showed that he was superior to everyone involved, most by a sizeable margin, at that point, including Akainu. If it weren't for Squardo's betrayal, WB would have been even more primed for action.
That's not at all what I was pointing out with my post, don't move the goal post please. It's about your "long way" comment, you may try defend it again with a reasonable explanation.

Impossibility
January 09, 2014, 12:48 PM
That's not at all what I was pointing out with my post, don't move the goal post please. It's about your "long way" comment, you may try defend it again with a reasonable explanation.

I was defending that, which is why I said 'sizeable margin'. I elucidated on why I thought so. The goalposts aren't moved, WB is far more powerful than Mihawk, by both reputation and feats. Your justification that he was somewhere in the ballpark is purely that he was once rival to Shanks. There isn't anything to suggest that Mihawk was operating on the same level as WB, in fact, there's more to support that he was a considerable distance from WB in terms of strength and power.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 12:52 PM
What feats besides beside being known for being the strongest man with the strongest devil fruit ability? What is there to support a "considerable" distance? I'm waiting. What about Shanks seeing Mihawk as his equal, what about Mihawk leaving the war without a single scratch, what about Mihawk being feared by everyone but the highest tier characters, what about him being Zoro's final goal, what about Mihawk following Silver's steps as a partner to the Pirate King?

In fact, there are several more arguments to be made for Mihawk being an end game character like the Yonkou than him being far away from WB/Shanks/Kaidou or Big Mom.

Or are you trying to tell me that Shanks was far apart from Whitebeard too? Well, that would be nothing but a creation of your fantasy.

Kaiten
January 09, 2014, 01:04 PM
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to prove that Mihawk is a strong character. There is nothing that proves how strong. Comparing him to Yonkou, at this point in the series, is more than a little premature. Mihawk has not had a starring role in any arc yet, he has only been seen briefly, as a supporting character. It is too soon to anoint him as strong as the Yonkou, pirates who divided the New World between themselves. I am willing to believe he is comparable in strength to Doflamingo, based on his actions during the Baratie and Marineford Arcs. He could be stronger than Doflamingo, I just have not seen enough of him to form an opinion.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 01:11 PM
It is too soon to anoint him as strong as the Yonkou, pirates who divided the New World between themselves.
Yonkou are captains with crews equal in strength to admirals, they have a way of crontrolling big territories with subordinates and subservant countries/pirate crews, a lone pirate like Mihawk does not.



lol I know what the Yonkou are.
Just pointed out the aimless argument, which had little to do with individual power.

Kaiten
January 09, 2014, 01:13 PM
Mihawk is a character we know very little about. We know he is "The World's Strongest Swordsman", we know he is a Shichibukai, we know he is a former rival of Shanks, we know that he and Shanks are on good terms. We do not know his former bounty. We don't know his backstory. We don't know why, or how, he joined the Shichibukai. I find it hard to speak in definitives about such an enigmatic characters. I agree he is very strong. I am not willing to decide how strong until there are fewer mysteries about this character.

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------


Yonkou are captains with crews equal in strength to admirals, they have a way of crontroling big territories with subordinates and subservant countries/pirate crews, a lone pirate like Mihawk does not.

lol I know what the Yonkou are.

M3J
January 09, 2014, 01:15 PM
He can beat shanks, simply because shanks isnt the strongest swordsman in the world, unlike mihawk.

Can you please provide proof? Because that logic is very faulty. If you're talking about pure swordsman fighting, you could be right. However, if it's fighting overall, Shanks seems to have the edge here since he can fight in different ways. It's similar to how Sanji despite using legs to fight can use knives and his hands to fight when needed, so even if he and someone else were even in leg karate, Sanji can have the edge and win because he's more versatile.

Your conclusion is far too premature is all I'm saying. Maybe Mihawk can beat Shanks, maybe he can't. Maybe he didn't want to fight Shanks anymore because Shanks as a swordsman wouldn't be the challenge he used to be, even though overall, Shanks could probably beat Mihawk. All we know is that Mihawk is scary powerful, he was able to beat Zoro almost effortlessly (which almost no one has been able to do so far, even when Zoro was hurt and exhausted) and push Luffy away from his brother with little problem. All we can judge here is that Mihawk is very powerful, on a high tier and Zoro's final or second to final boss, while despite having one arm, Shanks became a respected Yonkou who was able to stop Akainu with one arm and issued a challenge without any fear or hesitation to the Marines and Blackbeard crew.

Impossibility
January 09, 2014, 01:26 PM
What feats besides beside being known for being the strongest man with the strongest devil fruit ability?

That is a reference to his reputation. His feats would be composed of everything that happened during the war, even after being betrayed by Squardo.


What is there to support a "considerable" distance? I'm waiting.

Above.


What about Shanks seeing Mihawk as his equal, what about Mihawk leaving the war without a single scratch, what about Mihawk being feared by everyone but the highest tier characters, what about him being Zoro's final goal, what about Mihawk following Silver's steps as a partner to the Pirate King?

Shanks relationship with Mihawk is what it is, I don't see that as much of an indicator. Mihawk left the war unscathed because he didn't get involved with any of the monsters around for any considerable amount of time, Vista and later Croc are the only two people of note that he engaged, and the battle against Croc isn't shown. Mihawk's attack against Jozu and his duel with Vista that stood as a draw before being interrupted are far better indicator of his abilities, mainly because his abilities are shown; quite frankly they are the only time we've seen his abilities on display against individuals of notable power and ability. If his ability is somewhat comparable to Vista's, or marginally superior, I don't think it's a stretch to say he's a ways away from WB, very few would likely object if I laid the claim that Vista was a long way from WB in power. Being Zoro's final goal doesn't mean he was near to WB in power, and Zoro's goal is to defeat him, be better than he is. I'm not sure what the reference to Silver was about.


In fact, there are several more arguments to be made for Mihawk being an end game character like the Yonkou than him being far away from WB/Shanks/Kaidou or Big Mom.

And these arguments and their relevance to his ability compared to WB's during the war are?


Or are you trying to tell me that Shanks was far apart from Whitebeard too? Well, that would be nothing but a creation of your fantasy.

I wouldn't be able to give many specifics on how Shanks compares to WB, although I believe him to be inferior, by how much, I don't know. And I also don't know precise difference in ability between Shanks and Mihawk. What the manga did provide was a clear comparison of Mihawk's ability to a WB commander, or two of them in particular, through different means. And those are the only clear comparisons in ability that we've seen.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 01:43 PM
Nobody is doubting Newgate to have been the ultimate #1 while he was alive. It's just that Shanks was really comparable and therefore Mihawk was too. I will reply to the rest some time later.

Kaiten
January 09, 2014, 01:45 PM
Other than being former rivals, why do you think Shanks and Mihawk are comparable? There last fight was over ten years ago, before Shanks lost his arm. Comparing Mihwak to Whitebeard seems downright heretical, to me, running counter to everything the manga said about Newgate.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 01:55 PM
Don't mistake me with DutchPhoenix, she's the one who threw that stuff about WB into the discussion. There was/is an equilibrium between the Yonkou, with Shanks, an emperor being a rival to Mihawk, who also hold the position of Zoro's ultimate goal and to whom Oda indicated a succession from the Dark King himself in the StrongWorld one shot. But that's a topic for the Luffy/Zorro thread and has been discussed in there far too often already.

Kaiten
January 09, 2014, 02:20 PM
Mihawk's rivalry with Shanks carries the same significance as Newgate's rivalry with Roger. Newgate was strong enough to fight Roger to a draw. It would be ridiculous to take that to mean he was as strong as the Pirate King. His rivalry with Shanks does not establish Mihwak as Shanks equal, or equal to any of the other Yonkou. It establishes him as a formidable pirate, reinforcing what we saw at Baratie, and making his epithet as "World's Greatest Swordsman" more than just empty words. Yonkou and Admiral are not power levels. One Piece is not Bleach. Could Mihawk fight Big Mom or Kaido, one on one, and win? I don't know. There is nothing in the manga that makes me think there is an answer to that question. Yes, no, and maybe are all equally incorrect.

Schabrak
January 09, 2014, 04:30 PM
It establishes him as someone who can fight admirals and probably emperors, but doesn't give a fuck about reigning large territories.

But Newgate was as strong or nearly as strong as the Pirate King, Oda made a huge point of WB never having the same goals as Gol, so they wouldn't get in each others way aside from a couple skirmishes.

making his epithet as "World's Greatest Swordsman" more than just empty words.
And Edward had to fight in the war to establish himself as the worlds strongest man? He did not, the marineford war was a show off of some power houses, which wouldn't be able to have as much panel time later on.

Of course they aren't power levels, but we know that all of them are near end game character, who have reached the highest form of their "careers", who are clearly established fighters with the power to back themself up against other monsters.

kkck
January 09, 2014, 05:36 PM
Well, to be fair we do have little to go on about regarding how shanks and WB would compare. All we know is that shanks had a brief skirmish with WB however that actually says little about how they would ultimately compare if they were to fight to a draw. A yonko is not a yonko just because of strength, a yonko is a pirate that has influence over territory thanks to a vast amount of subordinates which follow them. A yonko does not have to be as strong as WB or even comparable for that matter, he just needs to get people to follow him. Strength is a given to get that but not necessarily the defining factor. For all we know shanks didn't even win his little skirmish with WB or mihawk would be able to do the same.

Airgrimes
January 10, 2014, 06:54 PM
A yonko does not have to be as strong as WB or even comparable for that matter, he just needs to get people to follow him.
Do you think someone outside of the World Govt or not a Shichibukai can really do this without having insane power?
Like... Really own a whole bunch of villages/cities/towns?

I think that's the whole point behind these ranks such as Admiral/Yonkou etc.
It'd be foolish to think that they don't indicate a minimum level of immense power. Whilst there is nothing to prove all Yonkou's are equal, there must obviously be a minimum level of power they have to be to able to monopolize areas across the world.

DutchPhoenix
January 10, 2014, 07:01 PM
buggy is a feared warlord

M3J
January 10, 2014, 10:31 PM
buggy is a feared warlord

Where did you get that from? As far as I recall, no one was even remotely scared of Buggy whenever we saw him. It seems the only reason why he's a shichibukai is because of the powerful former prisoners that joined Buggy's crew, whose power would be troublesome for the Marines. As far as we see and know, Mihawk is a lone man.

kkck
January 11, 2014, 03:24 AM
As far as we know people are scared shitless of buggy. Well, strong people aren't necessarily like that however in the vast majority of cases his name alone willl be enough to intimidate a decent number of pirates. As far as we know he has a decent number of level 4 and 5 prisoners following him. Even if someone challenges him odds are they have to get past them first. Its not necessarily an easy task.

I am not saying a yonko does not have to be powerful, I am just saying he does not have to be as strong as WB or an admiral. They key here is gathering powerful followers, not being individually that strong.

M3J
January 11, 2014, 01:31 PM
Could you provide links? Because I don't remember anyone not part of his crew respecting or fearing him much. The only reason why he's feared now is because of his crew, the amount of powerful prisoners that joined him. Whitebeard and Sengoku said it themselves, which is why Whitebeard wanted Buggy to join his side.

True. Though we can determine Shanks is pretty strong, if Mihawk didn't hold back. All we know is that Mihawk is allegedly the greatest swordsman who became a shichibukai. He also seems to have no crew, yet he's traveling by himself and willing to slice ships in half and piss off people. He's also probably the only one who took out Zoro at full health effortlessly. Mihawk is likely pretty powerful, probably near Shanks or an admiral's strength.

DutchPhoenix
January 11, 2014, 02:36 PM
yes i agree, shanks is nearly as powerfull as mihawk, thats why hes younko, but not strongest swordsman.

vagabond87
January 11, 2014, 02:47 PM
Other than being former rivals, why do you think Shanks and Mihawk are comparable? There last fight was over ten years ago, before Shanks lost his arm. Comparing Mihwak to Whitebeard seems downright heretical, to me, running counter to everything the manga said about Newgate.

Why?

Whitebeard and Mihawk would have quite a nice fight if they fought one on one during Marineford.
WB wasnt at his prime and Mihawk was at his best for what we know. They should be around same strength with Whitebeard being more of a big gun at his prime, but he was not at his prime during war as we all know.

Luffy is set to be Pirate King and Zoro is aiming to be world greatest swordsman. Those two titles does not have big gap between when it comes to combat power of people who are entiteled like that. Its worth to be thought through instead of calling this comparing as something heretical.

MBVC
January 17, 2014, 06:25 PM
As far as we know people are scared shitless of buggy. Well, strong people aren't necessarily like that however in the vast majority of cases his name alone willl be enough to intimidate a decent number of pirates. As far as we know he has a decent number of level 4 and 5 prisoners following him. Even if someone challenges him odds are they have to get past them first. Its not necessarily an easy task.

I am not saying a yonko does not have to be powerful, I am just saying he does not have to be as strong as WB or an admiral. They key here is gathering powerful followers, not being individually that strong.

Well, Cavendish can erase most of them without any problem. The moral story: Buggy is feared by weak pirates, it he encounters someone like Kid, Law etc... then his lifespan will be shorten.

nfinitfx
January 18, 2014, 09:25 PM
Would say Mihawk is weaker than Akainu, but stronger than Purple Tiger, and Don Flamingo, and on the same level as Aokiji

---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 AM ----------


buggy is a feared warlord

Buggy is the warlord the marines needs but not the one it deserves

Airgrimes
January 21, 2014, 01:05 PM
buggy is a feared warlord
Wasn't even relevant to my point of Yonkou though. Let alone an accurate statement.

M3J
January 21, 2014, 09:32 PM
Wasn't even relevant to my point of Yonkou though. Let alone an accurate statement.

It is an accurate statement, though. Buggy's crew is the reason why he's feared, but he's feared. Whitebeard and Sengoku acknowledged this. While they have no respect for Buggy, they certainly were wary of the freed prisoners that Whitebeard extended a hand.


If Mihawk does not have a crew at all, it'd actually say a lot about his power.

Kaiten
January 21, 2014, 09:37 PM
If Mihawk does not have a crew at all, it'd actually say a lot about his power.

Or it could just say something about his personality. Maybe he is a loner.

M3J
January 21, 2014, 10:26 PM
Most likely so, but I'm talking about his power. is there any shichibukai, apart from possibly Kuma, who are as powerful as they are seemingly without a crew? Jinbei, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Buggy, Boa, Law, Blackbeard, Ace, and Moria all have or had their crew. Kuma and Mihawk are the only ones who haven't been seen with a crew, yet they became shichibukai.

Josef K.
January 22, 2014, 06:30 AM
Most likely so, but I'm talking about his power. is there any shichibukai, apart from possibly Kuma, who are as powerful as they are seemingly without a crew? Jinbei, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Buggy, Boa, Law, Blackbeard, Ace, and Moria all have or had their crew. Kuma and Mihawk are the only ones who haven't been seen with a crew, yet they became shichibukai.

We did not see DDs crew until his own arc, plus Kuma was a revolutionary so they are his "crew", but he might have some sort of crew here and there. Mihawk can also have a crew ... we just have not seem them as the central antagonists I think. But then again the status of the crew and Shichi is not actually solved in OP.

RichardMNixon
January 22, 2014, 05:34 PM
They key here is gathering powerful followers, not being individually that strong.
So when Shanks attacked Kaido and his army of Zoan users, he did ok for himself because Beckmann, Roux, and Yasopp can take on Kaido?
Yes, a Yonkou's crew is important and part of why the WG fears them, but it takes more than a strong crew to attack Kaido and come out in one piece. Do you think Mihawk can go 1v1 with Kaido?


Most likely so, but I'm talking about his power. is there any shichibukai, apart from possibly Kuma, who are as powerful as they are seemingly without a crew? Jinbei, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Buggy, Boa, Law, Blackbeard, Ace, and Moria all have or had their crew. Kuma and Mihawk are the only ones who haven't been seen with a crew, yet they became shichibukai. Jinbei may have had a crew at one point, but it doesn't seem like he did as a Shichibukai. More importantly, when they were called to Marineford, it was them called for, not their crews. Boa and Doflamingo fought alone. The WG wants them, pardoning their crew is just a perk of the job. Buggy getting the bat for his crew is the exception, not the norm.

kkck
January 22, 2014, 08:17 PM
So when Shanks attacked Kaido and his army of Zoan users, he did ok for himself because Beckmann, Roux, and Yasopp can take on Kaido?
Yes, a Yonkou's crew is important and part of why the WG fears them, but it takes more than a strong crew to attack Kaido and come out in one piece. Do you think Mihawk can go 1v1 with Kaido?

Jinbei may have had a crew at one point, but it doesn't seem like he did as a Shichibukai. More importantly, when they were called to Marineford, it was them called for, not their crews. Boa and Doflamingo fought alone. The WG wants them, pardoning their crew is just a perk of the job. Buggy getting the bat for his crew is the exception, not the norm.

MIhawk individually against kaido alone? I don't see any reason why not to be honest. I am of the school of thought that mihawk even today is actually a match to good old shanks, kaido's fellow yonko. Regardless of whether he wins the guy should be able to be a match.

I don't think buggy's shichibukai deal was any different from the other shichibukai. Even luffy would have been spared from trouble by fujitora had law bothered to word things differently IIRC.

M3J
January 23, 2014, 01:59 AM
We did not see DDs crew until his own arc, plus Kuma was a revolutionary so they are his "crew", but he might have some sort of crew here and there. Mihawk can also have a crew ... we just have not seem them as the central antagonists I think. But then again the status of the crew and Shichi is not actually solved in OP.
True, but it's been implied he had his own crew given Bellamy and the human/fishman dealer/auctioneer at Shabondy Park. We saw some signs he had his own crew.

True, but I'm talking about leading one's own crew. Kuma is unknown and could go either way. Mihawk seems to not have a crew since there's no implication whatsoever. He was never shown talking to anyone potentially from his crew or anyone from a crew that he used to be in.


Jinbei may have had a crew at one point, but it doesn't seem like he did as a Shichibukai. More importantly, when they were called to Marineford, it was them called for, not their crews. Boa and Doflamingo fought alone. The WG wants them, pardoning their crew is just a perk of the job. Buggy getting the bat for his crew is the exception, not the norm.

He definitely has a crew even now, since he mentioned having to withdraw from Big Mom so he could join Luffy. At the least, he'll have his crew up until he joins Luffy. As a shichibukai, only time we ever saw him was when he was chained up, after which he revoked his title as shichibukai. None of the shichibukai had their crew with them, apart from Crocodile and Mr. 1. No idea why, but probably to avoid any confusion if hte Marines did not know all of the shichibukai's crew?

RichardMNixon
January 23, 2014, 01:54 PM
I don't think buggy's shichibukai deal was any different from the other shichibukai.I don't mean his deal, I mean the reason for his offer. Buggy was invited for his relationships and crew - the others weren't. Doflamingo, Law, and Hancock were invited because the WG wanted them. The WG didn't care about Diamante, Bepo, or Sandersonia.


He definitely has a crew even now, since he mentioned having to withdraw from Big Mom so he could join Luffy. At the least, he'll have his crew up until he joins Luffy. As a shichibukai, only time we ever saw him was when he was chained up, after which he revoked his title as shichibukai. None of the shichibukai had their crew with them, apart from Crocodile and Mr. 1. No idea why, but probably to avoid any confusion if hte Marines did not know all of the shichibukai's crew?
Where did he mention having a crew in that? He could just be by himself, but under Big Mom.
I don't think confusion has anything to do with it, I think it's just Doflamingo the shichibukai, not the Donquixote pirates the shichibukai crew. Doflamingo is who the government wants, his underlings are incidental.

M3J
January 23, 2014, 03:41 PM
Jinbei and King Neptune mention the crew (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/122042/one-piece_v66_ch652_by_mangarule/3) here. He and his crew were under Big Mom.

Could be the confusion as well, since only the shichibukai were present. No Hancock's crew, Doflamingo's crew despite their power, or even Moria's crew (or prepared crew).

Mihawk by himself would definitely be just below Yonkou, and with a decent crew, he could even be equal to a Yonkou.

RichardMNixon
January 23, 2014, 03:45 PM
Could be the confusion as well, since only the shichibukai were present. No Hancock's crew, Doflamingo's crew despite their power, or even Moria's crew (or prepared crew).That's the entire point I'm trying to make. Buggy is the only shichibukai to get the invitation based on his crew. For the others, the WG doesn't care about their crew. The WG didn't invite Doflamingo's crew because Doflamingo is who they want.

kkck
January 23, 2014, 03:46 PM
I don't mean his deal, I mean the reason for his offer. Buggy was invited for his relationships and crew - the others weren't. Doflamingo, Law, and Hancock were invited because the WG wanted them. The WG didn't care about Diamante, Bepo, or Sandersonia.


Ah ok, I see. I don't think he was named a shichibukai for his crew though, as far as we know the WG has quite a high opinion of him.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2656-11/one-piece/chapter-549.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2656-12/one-piece/chapter-549.html

I would argue this particular bit is what made them consider buggy as a shichibukai rather than his crew. That bit is specially relevant if we consider crews are rarely relevant at all in naming shichibukai. Buggy is seen by the world government as a former crewmember of roger and BFF of shanks. They even thought him a friend of ace (well, he was but the whole thing adds buggy's list of convenient acquaintances). Odds are the world government thinks they avoided a potential yonko by making buggy into a shichibukai.

Schabrak
January 23, 2014, 05:22 PM
And don't forget to add how he talked to Whitebeard later on. Being respected by Newgate was like a knightly accolade.

Rereading 549 I have to say that we need Buggy back as soon as possible, it's clear why he would be Oda's favourite character. I'm dying of laughter right now. XD

M3J
January 23, 2014, 07:22 PM
That's the entire point I'm trying to make. Buggy is the only shichibukai to get the invitation based on his crew. For the others, the WG doesn't care about their crew. The WG didn't invite Doflamingo's crew because Doflamingo is who they want.
The question is... why wouldn't they care about the crew when some of the crew members are strong enough to aid in fight?

Ah ok, I see. I don't think he was named a shichibukai for his crew though, as far as we know the WG has quite a high opinion of him.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2656-11/one-piece/chapter-549.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2656-12/one-piece/chapter-549.html

I would argue this particular bit is what made them consider buggy as a shichibukai rather than his crew. That bit is specially relevant if we consider crews are rarely relevant at all in naming shichibukai. Buggy is seen by the world government as a former crewmember of roger and BFF of shanks. They even thought him a friend of ace (well, he was but the whole thing adds buggy's list of convenient acquaintances). Odds are the world government thinks they avoided a potential yonko by making buggy into a shichibukai.
Doesn't seem like a high opinion at all. They suspect him because he's running with Luffy, not because they acknowledge him as a powerful or respected pirate. We have plenty of people mentioning the freed prisoners and how powerful they are during the war. I think the World Government just wanted to avoid the chances of going against the freed prisoners and thought their power would be valuable asset, so Buggy became shichibukai.

And don't forget to add how he talked to Whitebeard later on. Being respected by Newgate was like a knightly accolade.

Rereading 549 I have to say that we need Buggy back as soon as possible, it's clear why he would be Oda's favourite character. I'm dying of laughter right now. XD

Don't forget that Whitebeard and Marco thought Buggy was not a threat at all, but the freed prisoners would present challenge. Whitebeard didn't really respect Buggy at all... in fact, I don't think anyone did, except for Shanks. Not counting his current crew, of course.

kkck
January 23, 2014, 09:08 PM
The question is... why wouldn't they care about the crew when some of the crew members are strong enough to aid in fight?

Doesn't seem like a high opinion at all. They suspect him because he's running with Luffy, not because they acknowledge him as a powerful or respected pirate. We have plenty of people mentioning the freed prisoners and how powerful they are during the war. I think the World Government just wanted to avoid the chances of going against the freed prisoners and thought their power would be valuable asset, so Buggy became shichibukai.


Don't forget that Whitebeard and Marco thought Buggy was not a threat at all, but the freed prisoners would present challenge. Whitebeard didn't really respect Buggy at all... in fact, I don't think anyone did, except for Shanks. Not counting his current crew, of course.

The words from that marine are "To think that a man such as yourself had succeeded in concealing himself, causing no major incidents... / ...lurking right under our noses for so long... only now to finally show himself once more."

Right now the marines and the world government think of buggy exactly as they would of someone who could stand alongside roger, shanks or ace. Heck, those words were said before they even knew those guys would follow buggy to their graves. Up to that point they merely thought buggy was a bigger player in the escape plan than 2 former shichibukai and 2 important revolutionaries. I admit that it is weird to think of buggy as someone strong but the issue here is that the world government has not seen what we have seen. With buggy what they see is a former roger pirate they were unfamiliar with and avoided detection for 22 years, a man responsible for the single greatest blow to ID ever and who was given more importance in the case than 2 shichibukai and 2 revolutionaries, a man who took all those escaped prisoners and unified them under his flag to unleash hell during the war. Heck, as far as the entire world is concerned buggy survived an encounter with mihawk without a scratch. The prisoners might be a perk as far as the world government is concerned but they definitely gave the title to buggy thinking they were getting someone worthy of being in roger's crew and a friend of a yonko. For us it is definitely weird to think of buggy as strong but the WG guys have not seen what we have seen about buggy. Their perspective and what they have seen have nothing to do with what oda has cared to show us readers.

M3J
January 24, 2014, 01:15 PM
The chances are, they only assume Buggy as being dangerous due to him having been part of Roger's crew. Otherwise I haven't seen anyone else out of his crew talk to him like that, as if he was dangerous or someone to be respected or feared. I forgot who said that, but one person alone would not mean Buggy himself is feared.

Right now, yes. The only reason why the Marines and the World Government think Buggy could stand alongside Shanks, Ace, or Roger is because of the former prisoners. I forgot when the comment was made, but if it was during the war, then it was likely due to the prisoners. I also don't remember them thinking Buggy was a bigger player, but if they were, then that's probably due to Buggy being seen with Luffy first, and likely because he did try to escape before two former shichibukai and Revolutionaries were free.

The World Government doesn't need to. Even Whitebeard and Marco thought Buggy wasn't worth a thing, but they acknowledged his crew. I guess we can agree to disagree on why Buggy became shichibukai, given I rarely see anyone praising him at all.

Oda has showed us that Whitebeard and Marco did not care about Buggy as a threat, and the Marines, at least Sengoku, pointed out the freed prisoners many times.

Deus Machina
January 27, 2014, 05:25 AM
Unlike the common misconception that all Yonko are stronger than Admirals I feel that the power structure is not quite clear. There are Admirals who are stronger than Yonko. This is a purely subjective ranking as to how I feel the structure stands as of now.

WB > Shanks >= Akainu > Kizaru = Kaido >= Fujitora = Green Bull > Blackbeard > BIG MUM > Mihawk.

This is manga information that depicts the feats of all the characters who I have placed above Mihawk.
WB: Rodger's equal, an OP tank, WSM and possessed the strongest paramecia. Had enough crew/allies to fill a football stadium.
Kaido: King of the beasts, large army of NW zoan fighters, believed he was capable of taking out WB.
Shanks: Former Rodger pirate, only non-DF Yonko which has led belief of having the strongest haki. Stopped an entire war by challenging both pirates and marines who wanted to fight. His skill with the sword had the WSS sort him out to duel. Oda has stated himself that he hasn't lost ANY of his strength despite losing an arm. [The manga(WB) was hyping Shanks when they said he fought Mihawk.
BIG MUM: She god damn ate a dude whole! Has maintained Yonko position with the other three. Proof of her strength or she is a great tactician. Has made a move on another Yonko's business partner.
BB: Strongest logia and paramecia user. Took over all WB territories seamlessly. [Remember Yonko always en-roach on each others territories. Yet somehow BB is still in business]
Admirals: Marineford Arc gave a taste of Admiral power while Punk Hazard was the full course. The Admiral offensive fire power consists or but not entirely Hax DF abilities, Haki, Rokushiki and specific weapons.

Word to the wise there is no f*cking Yonko level because Yonkos range from WSM Whitebeard to Pre TS Blackbeard who was weaker than some top tiers.

DutchPhoenix
January 27, 2014, 06:01 AM
in 1 on 1 combat

Mihawk > Shanks > akainu > kizaru = Fujitora = Green Bull = blackbeard > BIG MUM = kaido

Schabrak
January 27, 2014, 09:22 AM
Unlike the common misconception that all Yonko are stronger than Admirals I feel that the power structure is not quite clear. There are Admirals who are stronger than Yonko. This is a purely subjective ranking as to how I feel the structure stands as of now.

WB > Shanks >= Akainu > Kizaru = Kaido >= Fujitora = Green Bull > Blackbeard > BIG MUM > Mihawk.

Word to the wise there is no f*cking Yonko level because Yonkos range from WSM Whitebeard to Pre TS Blackbeard who was weaker than some top tiers.
How is it a misconception, when it's the way Oda has presented them so far?

Shanks and his crew had no wounds when they arrived at MF, so what makes you think that Shanks is stronger than Kaidou? They could have simply talked and made a deal. Why are Fujitora/Green Bull weaker, only because they are the new ones? And in which freaking dimension is Blackbeard, the person with the two strongest known fruits placed near the bottom? It's almost like you really think that Teach hasn't learned to control the powers we have been able to glimpse at during the end of the war. Let me repeat that: Pre TS Shichibukai Teach != Post TS Yonkou Teach.

:teehee

Word from the wisest, there are no power levels at all in One Piece. :3c

in 1 on 1 combat

Mihawk > Shanks > akainu > kizaru = Fujitora = Green Bull = blackbeard > BIG MUM = kaido
How about we[you] actually elaborate on what we post?

DutchPhoenix
January 27, 2014, 09:43 AM
How about we[you] actually elaborate on what we post?

Mihawk (mihawk is superior to shanks because oda gave mihawk the title strongest swordsman in the world, and hes zoros final target)> Shanks (i think shanks bit stronger then akainu, but im not sure about that)> akainu > kizaru = Fujitora = Green Bull = blackbeard (although i think soon blackbeard will be the strongest)> BIG MUM = kaido

Schabrak
January 27, 2014, 11:12 AM
I already heard that a couple of times from you already( in this very thread if you need that reminder too^^), but what about the rest, the "Akainu>Kizaru=Fujitora=Green Bull=Blackbeard>Big Mom=Kaidou" part.

DutchPhoenix
January 27, 2014, 11:44 AM
i dont see big mom winning from an admiral in 1 on 1, same goes for kaido.
Admirals were very very powerfull.
Just look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBfQkWO0oes

M3J
January 28, 2014, 12:25 PM
Mihawk (mihawk is superior to shanks because oda gave mihawk the title strongest swordsman in the world, and hes zoros final target)> Shanks (i think shanks bit stronger then akainu, but im not sure about that)> akainu > kizaru = Fujitora = Green Bull = blackbeard (although i think soon blackbeard will be the strongest)> BIG MUM = kaido

The logic that Mihawk > Shanks jjust because he's the world's strongest swordsman is a bad logic. That only works if they only fight with swords, but in overall ability, Shanks could be more powerful. If Usopp is the world's best sniper, does that mean he'd beat Yasopp, who would be more versatile?

gh0un
January 28, 2014, 12:34 PM
Anything below "above admiral level" wouldnt make any sense plotwise.
He is definitely stronger than a single admiral.
Zoro´s final enemy will be mihawk, thats almost 100% given.
Its quite obvious that the strawhats are gonna defeat admiral level opponents soon for the story to progress, which means that it would be very anticlimatic if zoro´s final enemy is weaker than an enemy they faced previously.
He is definitely the strongest shichibukai and prolly stronger than all admirals.

DutchPhoenix
January 28, 2014, 01:02 PM
The logic that Mihawk > Shanks jjust because he's the world's strongest swordsman is a bad logic. That only works if they only fight with swords, but in overall ability, Shanks could be more powerful.

With what else will shanks fight? hes a swordsman.
For sure he aint gonna go boxing, and he didnt eat a DF.

Schabrak
January 28, 2014, 02:55 PM
Kicks, punches, CoO, CoA or CoC, whatever pleases him.

DutchPhoenix
January 28, 2014, 03:00 PM
haki is an abilility to improve one's fighting style, not a fighting style on its own.
And ur free to believe that shanks uses kicks and punches as his main fighting style.

The sword he always carries and uses is just for decoration, even the blades on his flags are just for decoration.

Now seriously, shanks is a swordsman, but hes not the strongest one, thats mihawk ;)

Schabrak
January 28, 2014, 03:06 PM
That's not what we mean, but go on exaggerating and missing the point. While Dracule seems to solely rely on his swords skills[+haki I suppose], Shanks might not since he had lost his main sword hand as a sacrifice to Luffy. He obviously still uses his sword as his main weapon of choice still.

ish3
January 28, 2014, 09:07 PM
Title or no title strongest swordman yonkou they're all just titles. To zoro being strong enough to protect luffy from anyone who stands in his way as pirate king is an even greater ambition if not equal to his main dream down the road. Mihawk isn't even the ends all end by the end of the manga and we all know why but I'm not gonna go into that. Zoro might end up wanting to become the greatest swordsman in history not just in the present because of all these things. It's a baseless argument to use without knowing what we'll deal with later on in this story.

On topic tho in a fight will strength tactics and luck play a big part so it's blasphemous to say shanks is weaker than mihawk when not only have we never seen their full strength we've never even seen mihawk go all out. Comparing feats right now mihawk only wins due to him having more appearances and clashes. When Shanks battles blackbeard which I'm assuming will happen before the fight for pirate king we'll see his true strength. Until all this talk about comparisons between them both is baseless. It will be years before we know any of this stuff.

M3J
January 29, 2014, 12:24 AM
With what else will shanks fight? hes a swordsman.
For sure he aint gonna go boxing, and he didnt eat a DF.

There are different ways of fighting, it's not limited to just one way. Again, Sanji and Zoro are perfect examples. Zoro can alternate between three swords to two to one to none at all, while Sanji can use knives and hands too if need be, despite relying solely on his legs most of the time. Likewise, Shanks may not be defined to one skill.

In terms of swordsman skill, there's a good chance Mihawk is stronger than Shanks. However, didn't Mihawk say he refused to fight Shanks after Shanks lost his arm? Didn't Oda mention that Shanks' power was still the same before he lost his arm? If they tied before then, then they will likely tie now.

DutchPhoenix
January 29, 2014, 07:37 AM
He wouldnt be called worlds strongest swordsman if that were the case.

TheLuffySmile
January 29, 2014, 08:39 AM
He wouldnt be called worlds strongest swordsman if that were the case. You haven't considered that it might sound lame if Shanks carried both the title of Yonko and greatest swordsman? What would be the fun in that? Mihawk might carry the title, but that doesn't mean that Shanks isn't on-par with him. I for one do not think that Mihawk is stronger / a better swordsman than Shanks.

DutchPhoenix
January 29, 2014, 08:59 AM
I for one do not think that Mihawk is stronger / a better swordsman than Shanks.

that contradicts with oda's writing.

Schabrak
January 29, 2014, 11:57 AM
So he's a better swordsman, both are great fighters, but Shanks could[not should] still be stronger overall, win in the end. Don't you get that?

DutchPhoenix
January 29, 2014, 12:17 PM
So he's a better swordsman, both are great fighters, but Shanks could[not should] still be stronger overall, win in the end. Don't you get that?

not aslong he using a sword.

M3J
January 29, 2014, 01:03 PM
He wouldnt be called worlds strongest swordsman if that were the case.

He still would be, especially if people think Shanks losing an arm made him worse of a swordsman. Mihawk's title may not be entirely true because there could be someone else who is stronger than him who hasn't fought Mihawk yet.

DutchPhoenix
January 29, 2014, 02:52 PM
He still would be, especially if people think Shanks losing an arm made him worse of a swordsman. Mihawk's title may not be entirely true because there could be someone else who is stronger than him who hasn't fought Mihawk yet.

then oda wouldnt have gave him the title, but he did.
And even if that unlikely theory would be true, it for sure wont be shanks.
But i dont think its the case, since mihawk said this.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2114-12/one-piece/chapter-52.html

MBVC
January 29, 2014, 06:13 PM
BB has a pair of handguns with him, does it mean BB would loose to his sniper when they fight?

Kaiten
January 29, 2014, 06:48 PM
not aslong he using a sword.

Are you saying that you know that Shanks is solely reliant on sword fighting, that he was severely weakened after losing his arm over ten years before the present storyline, and despite his title as one of the Yonkou, he is a Paper Tiger, weaker than Mihawk? And you base this on what? Can you link to something that proves Shanks is only a swordsman, and is weaker now than before he lost his arm? I am very much aware of the page Mihawk said he did not want to fight him. I also remember the page where he parried Whitebeard's naginata, and the page where he easily parried Akainu's fully activated logia ability, despite only having one arm. Explain to me: if losing an arm hurt him so much, how was he able to counter Whitebeard and Akainu so easily, with his sword, only using one arm?

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17700/one-piece_ch579_by_franky-house/12

With one hand, Shanks blocked Akainu's fist, full transformed, with logia ability activated, attacking Coby with his full strength. And you are telling me Shanks is weaker than Mihawk because he lost his arm and is not as good a swordsman as he used to be?

---------- Post added at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2541-14/one-piece/chapter-434.html

Here is fighting Whitebeard, one handed, with his sword. His missing arm does not seem to weaken him much. He still is able to effectively parry Whitebeard's gigantic naginata. If he is that weakened as a swordsman, the manga makes it extremely hard to tell.

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 01:15 AM
Even if he didnt weaken by losing an arm, he still aint as strong as mihawk, else oda would have given the title to shanks.

Schabrak
January 30, 2014, 03:38 AM
Would you stop repeating yourself? In the the end Whitebeard was a swordsman too(don't reply with something as stupid as bisento-man please), but he only got the strongest man title not all three: Yonkou, strongest man and greatest swordsman.

Do you still not get that's about both, his skill and strength with the sword. Shanks may be just as strong, but not as skilled as Dracule is. Maybe it's time for you to look the epitaph up and search for a good translation yourself?

I will have to consider you as a troll, if you keep on evading any real discussion, not replying to arguments providing the reasoning that we just don't have a single clue who's the stronger/better fighter of those two. Let me repeat that: Oda hasn't provided any significant feat or power display to let us know which one is stronger, would win in a duell. None whatsoever.

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 07:35 AM
Whitebeard had both the younko status , and strongest man.
Hes main fighting style was around his devil fruit power.

You cannot and should not compare whitebeard to shanks.
Shanks is a swordsman, does not own a devil fruit, and doesnt hold any title besides being a one of the younko.

You shouldnt be annoyed by the fact that till now all evidence shows that mihawk is stronger then shanks if they were to go 1 vs 1 (no crew/allies involved)
Unlike whitebeard was, mihawk is currently at his prime.

Take a look at this
http://www.mangareader.net/103-38993-10/one-piece/chapter-563.html
Due his health getting worser and worser, it could be up to debate if WB was still the strongest man in the world, at the time of the marineford battle.
Even crocodile says WB is ''weak'' compared to what he was not that long before, imagen what a true monster WB would have been when he wasnt sick and dying.
Blackbeard mentions it aswell
http://www.mangareader.net/103-47876-6/one-piece/chapter-576.html

Secondly, i think its fair to assume that everyone knows that Mihawk excels in swordsmanship compared to shanks (swordmanship includes haki)
Yet people still bring up this ''overall fighting skill'' or ''all out'' whatever you want to call it.
However you fail to answer, where lies the difference in swordmanship (including the haki) and ''going all out/overal fighting skill''
Isnt that the same thing, since shanks is a swordsman.
If you do not think its the same thing, then please provide evidence of this so called 'overall fighting skill'' or ''all out'' that shanks can do.
Besides, like luffy, i think shanks has this ability too.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-36562-12/one-piece/chapter-561.html
The ability to turn those around him, into his allies, the most dangerous ability of all

PS: im not a troll just because i think this way
Mihawk = strongest swordsman not questionable.
Shanks = swordsman
Logic tells me mihawk > shanks.

TheLuffySmile
January 30, 2014, 08:41 AM
It's no use Schabrak. When she questioned that Whitebeard was the strongest man alive, and that "Fair to assume that everyone knows that Mihawk excels in swordsmanship compared to shanks, and in Haki as well". I just gave up on answering :)

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 08:48 AM
It's no use Schabrak. When she questioned that Whitebeard was the strongest man alive, and that "Fair to assume that everyone knows that Mihawk excels in swordsmanship compared to shanks, and in Haki as well". I just gave up on answering :)


i didnt said mihawks haki's is stronger then shanks, i said that swordsmanship includes haki, especially at that level..
Secondly regarding the whitebeard, i said it could be up to debate if he was still the strongest man alive at marineford, since his health took a serious dip, when also several notewhorty characters questioned whitebeards current strenght & health.

So aslong you do not read, you should indeed give up on answering.
Because its wasting my time when i have to explain to you why you didnt fully read what i actually wrote.

TheLuffySmile
January 30, 2014, 09:53 AM
i didnt said mihawks haki's is stronger then shanks, i said that swordsmanship includes haki, especially at that level..
Secondly regarding the whitebeard, i said it could be up to debate if he was still the strongest man alive at marineford, since his health took a serious dip, when also several notewhorty characters questioned whitebeards current strenght & health.

So aslong you do not read, you should indeed give up on answering.
Because its wasting my time when i have to explain to you why you didnt fully read what i actually wrote. Yeah I apologize, I didn't write anything in respone because I'm tired, and because I believe your opinions to be biased and/or misinterpreted bs.
You're narrow-minded, repeptitive, and therefore boring to argue with.

Just because Mihawk is supposedly a better swordsman than Shanks does not imply that his haki is superior. You can twist it any way you want, but that is essentially what you're saying.

Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world. It doesn't matter if his health was rapidly declining or that he was old has hell.
Sengoku had such respect for his power that he wasn't even convinced that they would win the war. And referred to him several times as the world's strongest man. For example: http://i58.tinypic.com/2hs6w4o.jpg Do you need more proof than that? Oda emphasized it so much during the war. And the Admirals were "brats" to him.

Why shouldn't we compare Whitebeard and Shanks? they're both swordsmen of sorts, Yonko, from the same era, So fkn what if Whitebeard had a DF? Did you see how strong he was without it? And Kaiten already provided the best page for my argument. But, I'll give you this one as well. To show you his strength as a severely injured, sick and old man. http://i57.tinypic.com/15g8p61.jpg Btw, those are HQ VA's that he's flinging around like flies.
And during the war, he took ALL of this damage, and still stood strong on his feet when he passed. http://i57.tinypic.com/2qlwd3q.jpg I believe Shanks to have been weaker than WB at the time, but I sure as hell don't think that he would lag far behind in a 1v1 fight.

As for Swordsmanship including Haki. So friggin what? Swordsmanship and Haki are two completely different things. Swordsmanship is how you move the sword, and how you measure ones' skill with the blade. Haki is how much you can enforce the power of your slashes and cuts. Power and swordsmanship are not one and the same, and neither is Haki.

TheLuffySmile: Out.

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 10:14 AM
Haki is how much you can enforce the power of your slashes and cuts. Power and swordsmanship are not one and the same, and neither is Haki.

TheLuffySmile: Out.

like how a regular slash cuts a island sized iceberg clean in half?

TheLuffySmile
January 30, 2014, 10:24 AM
like how a regular slash cuts a island sized iceberg clean in half? What do you define as a regular slash? To me, Mihawk's slashes are never regular. And I never said that Mihawk didn't have exceptional Haki, I said that I do not believe his Haki to be stronger than Shanks'.

A two-handed slash from Mihawk split an Iceberg in half: http://i59.tinypic.com/nl4i2g.jpg
While Shanks, merely clashing with Whitebeard, split the skies. http://i61.tinypic.com/2wmifsm.jpg
I do believe Shanks and Mihawk to be on par with each other. I need to see more of the two to decide if one is stronger than the other.

Schabrak
January 30, 2014, 10:39 AM
I knew I better had to edit that one, but I thought the point was made pretty clear. Yes he was both the strongest man and an emperor. Nobody cares...

First things first. Don't tell others what they are allowed to do, here compare two characters of [nearly?] equal status within the OPverse. Both are at the top of the pirate world. Newgate used a sharp weapon too, therefore he was a swordsman too, since I doubt we need to classify characters as axeman, knifeman, longswordsman, etc. We have no clue if Shanks has a DF or not. And of course he has more than one title, Member of the Pirate King crew, Red Hair and Emperor. :P

If I get annoyed from anything, it's your biased or just wrong comprehension of the manga. "All evidence" you have is Dracules title. Him mentioning that Mihawk decided against further duells because of the loss of an arm is not evidence for any of those two. It just shows that Hawkeye doesn't see him as a complete swordsman anymore. Looking at the huge size of Shanks sword it's clear that it may rather be used with two hands than with one.

Newgate was weaker than at his prime and still the strongest person in the whole world.

And as TLS has already wrote in the phrase you quoted, haki, swordmanship and power and not one and the same. Like it or not, I don't care.

RichardMNixon
January 30, 2014, 10:41 AM
till now all evidence shows that mihawk is stronger then shanks if they were to go 1 vs 1
By "all evidence," you mean 3 words written in 1998, back when Oda thought the series would end in 2002.

No one has been shown displaying haki as outrageous as Shanks'. His haoshoku doesn't involve squinting, or shouting, or whatever DD's little dance is, it's just always on. He accidentally nuked Coby just by being near him. He damaged Whitebeard's ship with Haoshoku.

As a hypothetical, suppose Shanks could armor himself, Vergo-style, so strongly that Mihawk couldn't cut him. Would Shanks win that fight? Yes. Would it make him a better swordsman than Mihawk? No. It wouldn't have been his swordsmanship that won him the fight.


like how a regular slash cuts a island sized iceberg clean in half?
Law cut multiple mountains in half. Is he a better swordsman than Mihawk? Or did you decide that DFs that improve swordsmanship don't count?

Impossibility
January 30, 2014, 12:01 PM
Law cut multiple mountains in half. Is he a better swordsman than Mihawk? Or did you decide that DFs that improve swordsmanship don't count?

Every time someone mentions Mihawk's 'feats', I think about this. To date, Law has displayed the strongest slash in the manga. That's not to say he's the strongest, I doubt anyone would suggest that, which is why Mihawk's slash of the ice seems to be something worth little mention, if any at all.

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 12:35 PM
By "all evidence," you mean 3 words written in 1998, back when Oda thought the series would end in 2002.

No one has been shown displaying haki as outrageous as Shanks'. His haoshoku doesn't involve squinting, or shouting, or whatever DD's little dance is, it's just always on. He accidentally nuked Coby just by being near him. He damaged Whitebeard's ship with Haoshoku.

As a hypothetical, suppose Shanks could armor himself, Vergo-style, so strongly that Mihawk couldn't cut him. Would Shanks win that fight? Yes. Would it make him a better swordsman than Mihawk? No. It wouldn't have been his swordsmanship that won him the fight.


Law cut multiple mountains in half. Is he a better swordsman than Mihawk? Or did you decide that DFs that improve swordsmanship don't count?

Rayleighs haki feats are of an higher caliber then the ones we've seen from shanks till now.
Secondly, i dont think shanks armor would be hardening like luffy's fist or vergo body armor, i think its invisible and of a way higher caliber, like rayleigh.

Schabrak
January 30, 2014, 12:51 PM
Silvers CoA wouldn't save him from an attack, he would still have to avoide it or defend himself as shown (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13916/one-piece_ch597_by_mangarule/13), if Hardening wasn't on and I highly doubt that he is not capable of using it. It was no invisible shield haki, it was him using haki on his hand without hardening it as he didn't need to use that technique for that elephant[and Oda only starting to use the "black" version after the time-skip]. Oda made it pretty clear that hardening is an advanced form of normal CoA, I'm not willing to start a debate about that fact.

Please explain how Rayleighs feats are greater than Shanks ones. He used haki to hold back a logia admiral and so did Shanks. Rayleigh let people fall into unconsciousness in the auction house, Shanks did the same with part of Whitebeards crew.

DutchPhoenix
January 30, 2014, 04:16 PM
invisble armor seems to be bouncing back stuff, while black hardening works like tekkai.

hawk eye
February 02, 2014, 04:14 AM
hmm, as much as i like mihawk, i have to say that he doesn't have the best feats in the manga so far, but i still believe that he's one of the strongest people right behind the yonkou's/admirals IF not the strongest! i might be a bit biased towards him since he's my favourite character in OP, but i think i'm being reasonable enough here.

DutchPhoenix
February 10, 2014, 01:20 PM
This is how i see it
http://i58.tinypic.com/2d0nsyh.png

M3J
February 10, 2014, 01:35 PM
That makes no sense given Shanks blocked Akainu's magma fist with one hand and sword. His sword quality and physical ability would be better, given the feat.