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XXGenesis
March 04, 2012, 11:40 AM
Ok so to my understanding by Strengthen your will determination and placing strict limits and oaths on how to use your nen ability and when on who, or if I use it this...creates phenomenons beyond human power..

No Nen ability can be "beyond human boundaries." What this means is that you can't have an ability that is limitless. For example, you can't conjure a sword that can cut through anything. However, if you can set very strict limitations on it, then you can conjure a sword that can cut through anything given that the limitations are met. For example, Kurapika was unable to conjure an unbreakable chain. However, he was able to conjure a chain that was unbreakable by any Phantom Troupe member after making a contract.

So it's pretty funny how nobody has mentioned or brought any attention to this yet. But how is Alluka/Nanika Killua's or anybody for that fact, magic Genie....She has no limits on what she can grant....I love HXH but her Nen ability breaks that Law of Nen which I loved an hated so much cause HxH is still Fictional..

Raad
March 04, 2012, 02:01 PM
You could say that, but the fact is we still don't know anything about Nanika, where it came from, and if it fits the title of human at all.

Thousan D Sunny
March 04, 2012, 03:39 PM
Well, until now we haven't seen any wish Alluka granted, which was limitless. Teleporting Ilumi is valid since Greed Island, letting a million jenny fall from a sky ship obviously too. And as Gon's condition after is fight again Neferpito was caused by Nen and actually natural (he just grew older), it must me possible to heal/return him with Nen.
Have I forget any remarkable wishes...?

Silver said that her powers are probabily limitless, but we haven't witnessed anything special.

Zvane
March 04, 2012, 03:42 PM
but Alluka's power does have strict limitations....as long as Killua isn't the one making a wish.
Plus, there's also a big condition "Alluka must gave up controlof his/her body to Nanika in order to grant wishes"

Thousan D Sunny
March 04, 2012, 03:49 PM
You have to distinguish. Even with the strictest limitation, you can't create a sword, which cuts everything, as such a sword can't exist. So even if the topics are tightly connected, it's not about whether the conditions (pesterings) to wish from Alluka are well balanced concerning the Nen rules we know. It's about whether the ability itself is possible independent from the conditions.
As far as we know, you can wish anything from Alluka and the corresponding pesterings come afterwards. So actually Allukas power is limitless, as there are no real conditions you have to fulfill to wish from her. But as I tried to show above, we haven't see anything, another Nen user wouldn't be capable of.

MegamanX195
March 04, 2012, 04:14 PM
I think Alluka's restrictions are good enough. She gets posessed when making the wish, she can't grant herself a wish, and of course there's also the whole pestering thing.

One thing I noticed is that people who can't use Nen consciously (Neon, Alluka) usually have some of the best abilities. I think that not being able to use Nen subconsciously acts as a restriction, greatly boosting the ability's power.

Thousan D Sunny
March 04, 2012, 04:53 PM
I know I sound like a broken disc record, but the topic are not Allukas restrictions to use her ability - which are of course good enough - but whether her ability is "beyond human boundaries" like XXGenesis wrote in the opening post and which shouldn't be possible based on our current information about Nen.

MegamanX195
March 04, 2012, 05:14 PM
Specialization type is said to be something that "doesn't fit in the other types". Maybe some very rare Specialization individuals can bend a bit the "beyond human boundaries" thing?

Of course, all of this is just speculation at this point. I'm pretty sure we're going to get more insight into Alluka at some point.

Thousan D Sunny
March 04, 2012, 05:20 PM
Well, you could be right. But it would be too easy for Togashi, if every off-the-rules nen ability is possible, because it's spezialization. When I read that Poknoda's mind reading ability is spezialization I was really disappointed, since that's always an easy way out (like Sasuke being badass, because of his eyes).


I'm pretty sure we're going to get more insight into Alluka at some point.

Definitely. But the question is, at which point? Now that Killua and Gon have separated after hundreds of chapters, we probably won't see the siblings for long time.

Uriel
March 04, 2012, 06:04 PM
Beware, Human Boundaries means that everything that Human CAN'T imagine. Let's say this: No one can make a sword that cuts everything because anyone knows everything. That's why Kurapika Master said there was ways to create something really close of it because that depends on your own knowledge and imagination and specially the last one.

So far, everything that was shown of Nen has respected this law. Yes, even Meruem. They pay of his power is the life of many who died for him to born and all the ones He needs to EAT to gain his own power.

Alluka, in the other hand, can give everything because She leaves the imagination part to the wisher and just determinate the price. If you want, She's kinda Nen itself.

kkck
March 04, 2012, 09:18 PM
Well, is there any indication that alluka is even using nen? If I recall she has never actually been called a nen user. If we think about it, we are just assuming she uses nen simply because the manga revolves around nen however the manga has never actually stated or implied she is any form of nen user. This is interesting because there is an actual very strong possibility that alluka is doing intrinsically different from nen itself.

I also don't think the whole thing is a simple matter of leaving the imagination part to someone else. If such a rule worked in some form then it would be plausible for anyone to actually grant wishes that way. Alluka even has a gennie of sorts living inside of her (perhaps it is similar to that nostrad girl who made predictions without knowing how she actually did it or where they came from however that still does not change that nanika herself has never been referred to as a nen user of any sort). More so, it is innately strange that nanika grants the wish basically, she is using the ability, and it is someone else who pays without we ever noticing nanika imposing some sort of nen on the person who wishes. Even then, if there were actually rules to this then killua would still be bounded by the rules. To me, the fact that nanika has the power to arbitrarily grant wishes really does suggest a very real possibility that she is not using nen at all.

XXGenesis
March 04, 2012, 10:17 PM
Well, until now we haven't seen any wish Alluka granted, which was limitless. Teleporting Ilumi is valid since Greed Island, letting a million jenny fall from a sky ship obviously too. And as Gon's condition after is fight again Neferpito was caused by Nen and actually natural (he just grew older), it must me possible to heal/return him with Nen.
Have I forget any remarkable wishes...?

Silver said that her powers are probabily limitless, but we haven't witnessed anything special.

Alluka/Nanika doesn't create a blimp with a million dollars....a blimp disappeared and money started falling from the sky...She moved Illumi miles and miles away, and removed Gon's contract he made with himself...Something the best Nen removers couldn't do.



Specialization type is said to be something that "doesn't fit in the other types". Maybe some very rare Specialization individuals can bend a bit the "beyond human boundaries" thing?

Of course, all of this is just speculation at this point. I'm pretty sure we're going to get more insight into Alluka at some point.

I thought about this too...But No they should still follow this rule at least some bit....Specialization shown so far are...Fortune Telling, Stealing Nen abilities, Full proficiency in all Hatsu of Nen.......Noting cray as ask for what you want and it will be received...


Beware, Human Boundaries means that everything that Human CAN'T imagine. Let's say this: No one can make a sword that cuts everything because anyone knows everything. That's why Kurapika Master said there was ways to create something really close of it because that depends on your own knowledge and imagination and specially the last one.

So far, everything that was shown of Nen has respected this law. Yes, even Meruem. They pay of his power is the life of many who died for him to born and all the ones He needs to EAT to gain his own power.

Alluka, in the other hand, can give everything because She leaves the imagination part to the wisher and just determinate the price. If you want, She's kinda Nen itself.

Our definitions of Human Boundaries are a little bit different...How does Killua and Alluka's bodyguard transform herself into vehicles???? How is she as a Human able to change form and be flown or driven...that too me is beyond human boundaries....And I assume Togashi just couldn't be limited by this anymore or decided to stretch it a bit.........But very good analysis on Alluka's power, didn't think of it that way....Killua can ask for anything as a lot of people have been mentioning and fear Alluka being a character cause of this....I juss think Nanika powers are even Beyond Nen's capabilities...

Uriel
March 04, 2012, 10:36 PM
Because they're able to imagine it. They're able to feel that technique as right for themselves. Don't forget, Nen comes from Aura and Aura is the energy of all living things. It's what is most natural in souls. It's the true essence of beings.

For Tsubone that essence is to be a vehicle for others. For Killua, that is suffering the thunder. For Gon is pure and simple energy, as an animal would feel it. For Alluka, maybe, it's granting someone else wish.

Although what kkck said stands truthful: It also very likely that Alluka is not even related to Nen.

Thousan D Sunny
March 05, 2012, 03:50 AM
Alluka/Nanika doesn't create a blimp with a million dollars....a blimp disappeared and money started falling from the sky...She moved Illumi miles and miles away
I didn't said, that Alluka created the blimp and the money. Teleporting is something Nen users can do, as we have seen it on Greed Isalnd. Therefore its' possible to move the blimp somewere else.


and removed Gon's contract he made with himself...Something the best Nen removers couldn't do.
How can you know? The Hunter Association has exactly one Nen remover, who didn't even tried to remove the Nen. We don't know, whether Abengane would be able to do it. Apart from that, it must be able to heal/return Gon to normal, since his grave condition was caused by Nen. The fact that noone has the required ability to remove this Nen, doesn't imply, that it's impossible in general.

XXGenesis
March 05, 2012, 12:22 PM
Because they're able to imagine it. They're able to feel that technique as right for themselves. Don't forget, Nen comes from Aura and Aura is the energy of all living things. It's what is most natural in souls. It's the true essence of beings.

For Tsubone that essence is to be a vehicle for others. For Killua, that is suffering the thunder. For Gon is pure and simple energy, as an animal would feel it. For Alluka, maybe, it's granting someone else wish.

Although what kkck said stands truthful: It also very likely that Alluka is not even related to Nen.

I understand that very well. From how Nen has been shown in the beginning and now later on in the series it's getting vaster in performance. But Tsuborne shouldn't be able to grow wheels...?!?! Whether she feel like a vehicle or not, that's not humanly possible. Through Nen such a feat in transforming shouldn't either...Tsuborne happened to be my next example of what is Nen's limit or New limit...



I didn't said, that Alluka created the blimp and the money. Teleporting is something Nen users can do, as we have seen it on Greed Isalnd. Therefore its' possible to move the blimp somewere else.


How can you know? The Hunter Association has exactly one Nen remover, who didn't even tried to remove the Nen. We don't know, whether Abengane would be able to do it. Apart from that, it must be able to heal/return Gon to normal, since his grave condition was caused by Nen. The fact that noone has the required ability to remove this Nen, doesn't imply, that it's impossible in general.

Yes teleporting is within Nen's power, however those who used it at Greed Island meet conditions as such with the game. You will only be transported their one way....They don't just grab stuff out of thin air..

Read carefully I said Nen "Removers". Gon accelerated his growth rate to his prime most likely through a restriction of never ever being able to use nen again and who knows what else..Simply being able to remove powerful nen wouldn't have been enough...and Morau already mentioned their are probably ppl in the world capable but rather keep their power under the radar.

Uriel
March 05, 2012, 06:03 PM
That's why I said you had a misunderstandings of "Human Boundaries" when it was first mention in HxH. From the beginning, it doesn't mean what a Human can do by its own, but what a Human can create and originate. In that sense is why I say it's limited to imagination and that's limited to knowledge.

kkck
March 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
How about a poll to vote on whether nanika is or not using nen lol?

Uriel
March 16, 2012, 01:17 PM
Wish granted. Now give me your posts. *scary Nanika face*

kkck
March 16, 2012, 03:06 PM
Well, to me the fact that there does not seem to be a limitation to alluka's ability is pretty strong evidence that this is not actually nen. I guess she does demand payment to everyone but killua however the fact that she does not seem to impose nen at any point nor does she seem to have conditions when pestering points towards something different from nen. Ultimately, the most basic principle of nen is that you can't make things beyond human capacity and alluka healing gon was just that (impossible injuries and an impossible imposed nen).

XXGenesis
March 16, 2012, 09:43 PM
I believe Nanika uses nen but specialization on a massive scale. Specialization in itself isn't bound to the known rules of Nen they often surpass certain boundaries...Ex..Fortune Telling, Hatsu theft, Mind reading, Nen absorbtion, frankenstine puppets..Nanika is a genie in a bottle for Killua and potential pandora's box for someone else...Members of the Zodiac felt Nanika using her nen to heal Gon. Can't remember any claims to it feeling like something other than nen..So i vote super specialization.

steadynco
March 17, 2012, 05:51 AM
Well, to me the fact that there does not seem to be a limitation to alluka's ability is pretty strong evidence that this is not actually nen. I guess she does demand payment to everyone but killua however the fact that she does not seem to impose nen at any point nor does she seem to have conditions when pestering points towards something different from nen. Ultimately, the most basic principle of nen is that you can't make things beyond human capacity and alluka healing gon was just that (impossible injuries and an impossible imposed nen).
I really like this explanation however how would you explain the imposing force felt by others when Gon was being healed? Togashi tends to give names to nen abilities and shows aura when the abilities are being used, but this hasn't been the case with Alluka so you may be right.

kkck
March 17, 2012, 11:33 AM
We have no reason to believe nanika imposed a nen on gon. She did the opposite, remove a nen which was beyond the capacities of nen removers and altogether eliminate it (which is awesome considering most nen removers actually somehow take the nen onto themselves and have some condition to actually make it disappear) and healed gon, which was beyond the capacities of medicine and nen altogether too. Nanika basically did something not a single nen eraser has been able to do so far to live up to the name, she actually erased nen from existence.

MegamanX195
April 19, 2012, 07:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that Nanika/Alluka uses Nen. Every single type of those things (mediums, geniuses, etc.) use Nen subconsciously, so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for Alluka.

I think "predicting the future" would be something beyond "Human Boundaries", don't you think? Or yet, 100% potency on all Hatsus is something completely absurd and completely beyond human boundaries, after all, no one was shown to be capable of doing something even remotely similar. Both of those powers exist, and yet they still feel "fair", because of their restrictions. Just like Alluka/Nanika.

kkck
April 20, 2012, 05:27 PM
Well, to be fair the future is not quite written in stone, it can be changed and in fact it was. As for 100% in all categories, it really does not sound like something absurd. Clearly it is not a normal ability however at least it seems conceptually possible and can be worked around to some extent through imposing pledges and whatnot. Also, regarding the fairness issue, it is certainly not the same as with alluka at all. Nanika can grant wishes without any boundaries as far as we know. Even when she pesters the conditions have nothing to do with any imposed nen and it never seems like nen is being imposed at all. Then there is the overwhelmingly gargantuan issue of killua being able to ask for anything at all with no consequences to himself or alluka whatsoever. At least that is what healing gon would suggest as the nen imposed on him seemed to be the direct consequence of giving up all of his potential and future and healing him was beyond what nen and technology could do.