PDA

View Full Version : Question Could the Supernovas > Shichibukai???



RezzieThaRapper
April 07, 2012, 12:08 PM
Basic Question Could the 11 Supernova's now be more threatning as a group than the Shichibukai...

We know Luffy is at least > or = to more than a few Shichi's

Zoro seems to be on par with Luffy

Law is a Shichibukai

Kidd is challenging Big Mam and sinking her ships

Drake is challenging Kaidou before the Timeskip even started
...........


Could we dare say that this group as a collective could challenge even the Yonkou???

I honestly doubt Shanks could win vs. all the Supernova
I am starting to doubt Whitebeard could win vs. all the Supernova's

The Admirals might not even walk out unscathed from a challenge from the "Worst Generation"

We know for a fact at least two of them can hit Logia's... (Luffy and Law)

Among them they have the most broken ability users in the series (Bonney, Law, Hawkins, Apoo, Kidd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a collective... how strong is this group?!?!?!

beck26
April 07, 2012, 12:25 PM
on par with original shichibukai i guess - but still this group murders the supernovas except luffy, law and kidd (doflamingo, mihawk, kuma, hancock, crocodile, moriah, jinbei)

Zehahaha
April 07, 2012, 03:21 PM
Could we dare say that this group as a collective could challenge even the Yonkou???

I honestly doubt Shanks could win vs. all the Supernova
I am starting to doubt Whitebeard could win vs. all the Supernova's

The Admirals might not even walk out unscathed from a challenge from the "Worst Generation"


> Shanks
> Admirals
> Getting injured by Supernovas

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg269/scaled.php?server=269&filename=1330424694368.jpg&res=landing

P.S : While I do understand about WB, but we have a seen an old and sick WB, in his state... Yea I can see him getting beaten by the Supernovas, but I doubt it. But for Shanks and Admirals, it is just plain impossible.

eefrit
April 07, 2012, 06:11 PM
^Yeah, gonna have to agree with Zehahaha, the Supernova are strong, but they still have ways to go before they can beat an Admiral or a Yonkou, even as a group. These past two years have given them enough power and experience to survive an encounter with them probably, but not flat out beat. I mean, These 7 (Yonkou+Admirals) are the strongest character's in the manga. That would just be kind of lame if they could take two years of experience in the New World and just beat people who have damn near conquered it.

As for the Shichibukai thing, I would like to assume that despite Law's strength, he is the "weakest" Shichibukai. His peers have an incredible amount of time in the New World under their belt.

As for the Devil's Fruit users, these last chapters seem to indicate that those with strong enough haki and stand up even to the most hax devil's fruits. Even the three Admirals stood up to Whitebeard's shockwave. Pretty sure these experienced marines and pirates could withstand some of the more crippling effects.

mattiaildivino
April 08, 2012, 05:34 AM
WB stomped the admirals,and kizaru really owned 4 admirals. I know a lot of people disagree with this,but we know for sure that the Emperors are the strongest pirates of the world. my ranking is the following: Emperors>admirals > shichibukai > supernovas. luffy was clearly on another elvel compared to the other supernovas 2 years ago,the others weren't at shichibukai level,they had troubles even against pacifistas.
and the fact drake and kidd are challenging emperors means nothing: we saw a lot of fodders who challenged stronger people(those who attacked crocodile at alabasta),as ruffy challenged the WG (when admirals could easily kill him). SUpernovas now are stronger than how they were 2 years ago,but rufy should still be the strongest,not to mention the pirates even stronger.

Dekker
April 08, 2012, 07:17 AM
luffy was clearly on another elvel compared to the other supernovas 2 years ago,the others weren't at shichibukai level,they had troubles even against pacifistas.

Care to share on which chapter Luffy, Zoro and Sanji beat a pacifista easily pre timeskip? I doubt you will find it, because they barely got 1 down. So did the other supernovae.

matzik1212
April 08, 2012, 09:27 AM
Hmm i tend to say it is possible that the Supernovas are at least on par with the Shichibukai . I mean just seeing how much Law has grown in this period makes me say it is possible . I don't even expect Kidd to be inferior to Law , actually i think he's stronger and the others have grown as well so IMO i think they could be on par or even beat the hell out of the Shichibukai :smile-big
I mean Luffy and Zoro are also part of the Supernovas so there's just no way they are gonna lose in a fight against the 7 Shichibukai ! After all we know that Luffy is infamous for defeating 2 Shichibukai , making 1 his nakama :XD and another one in love with him lol

mattiaildivino
April 08, 2012, 01:58 PM
well,that's sure! if luffy is with them,then they win.the 11 of them pre time-skip against the 7? dunno, but now the supernovas should win,imo. without luffy and zoro,they would lose,imo.

Uriel
April 08, 2012, 06:04 PM
Never. Boa and Mihawk can tank them with quite ease.
And let's not turn this in another Luffy is above or below admirals, please.

Naruffy
April 08, 2012, 06:45 PM
No way, none of them are on par with Doflamingo, Hancock, Mihawk or Kuma.

hyper_megaman
April 08, 2012, 08:15 PM
No way, none of them are on par with Doflamingo, Hancock, Mihawk or Kuma.

pretty sure hancock isn't quite high up there

she's the only one who uses haki (haki master, actually) and she's still on an assumed equal level with the other shichibukai.

luffy defeated some of the shichibukai with brute force, pre-haki.

now luffy has haki on top of his brute force that matched 3 shichibukai. maintaining the assumption that the shichibukai are more or less equal, i'm pretty sure hancock's no match for luffy

leiatte
April 08, 2012, 08:50 PM
Never. Boa and Mihawk can tank them with quite ease.
And let's not turn this in another Luffy is above or below admirals, please.

I definitely agree with Uriel.. Boa, Mihawk, Kuma, and Doflamingo would destroy a ton of them, Im not even sure if Luffy post timeskip can beat Kuma (we never got to see his full capabilities), and most of the Super Novas weren't nearly as strong as Luffy, the only ones I say were close or even were Kidd, and Law, followed by Hawkins and Drake, the rest I think were pretty far back, but maybe I'm judging them too early.

P.S. Law is a Supernova, and Shichibukai so which team would he be fighting for, Im gonna say Shichibukai because that is actually a rank, not just a title.

also, I don't think a lot of the Supernovas (pre-timeskip) could defeat Shichibukai (pre-timeskip). I also doubt they can now, with the exception of some of the strongest supernova, and I don't think it would be an easy win, It would diminish the title of Shichibukai if it was easy.

mattiaildivino
April 09, 2012, 09:30 AM
pretty sure hancock isn't quite high up there

she's the only one who uses haki (haki master, actually) and she's still on an assumed equal level with the other shichibukai.

luffy defeated some of the shichibukai with brute force, pre-haki.

now luffy has haki on top of his brute force that matched 3 shichibukai. maintaining the assumption that the shichibukai are more or less equal, i'm pretty sure hancock's no match for luffy

hancock's beauty would turn some of the supernovas into stone. about crocodile,except rufy they can't hit him,since noone of them can use haki,not even rufy could 2 years ago.

Page356
April 09, 2012, 03:36 PM
I would say Supernova are more powerful if not at the moment then very soon. Here's my reasoning:

Zoro is somewhere around Mihawk's level, with Killer added Mihawk should go down.

Hancock is roughly as strong as her sisters, which makes here kind of weak except she's pretty awesome with haki. That being said nobody should just assume her DF is gonna KO anybody, otherwise I'll just assume Bonnie would KO everybody else.

Kuma is just a PX with an awesome DF now. That being said any one of the Supernova should have the ability to KO him if they can land a hit. Even if they don't Kidd would just rip him apart.

I apologize to all Crocodile fans in advance, but he's fodder. He's a character that relies completely on his DF, and oh yeah, you can use blood against him.

Donflamingo seems like a badass, but to be honest we know as much about him as we do about most of the Supernova.

Moria is another Shichibukai I have no respect for and assume most of the Supernova could beat. The guy had more than a year head start to steal shadows and build zombies and he still lost. I wonder if Luffy could make all of his zombies faint with a blast of haki now.

Jinbei is a strong fighter but at this point I assume Luffy could take him.

Blackbeard and Law I pretty much won't consider part of the Shichibukai for the sake of argument since one is now a Yonkou and the other a Shichibukai.

Anyway, whether you agree with how I described the Shichibukai or not, you have to admit that the Supernova are pretty powerful, powerful enough for one of them at least to become a Shichibukai. Then take into account there's 11 Supernova as opposed to only 7 Shichibukai.

mattiaildivino
April 09, 2012, 03:53 PM
disagreed completely: Hancock is much stronger than her sisters,remember how much they feared her. she is beauty,and can shoot "hearts",aside from turning the opponents into stone. I'd say Apoo,capone and Urouge would be turned into stone.
we don't know what's the difference between mihawk and zoro. mihawk may slice killer with a single strike,who knows. in the war he didn't fight at his best,maybe he possess haki and can own even 5 supernovas together.
Kuma is much stronger than a px,I though he was the strongest out of the supernovas,since damaging him is almost impossible,he can teleport,shoot air bomb and beams.
jinbe was still equal to rufy,more or less. crocodile isn't so weak,he keeped up with doflamingo and mihawk. yes blood can nullify his df,but it doesn't mean it can defeat him (look at jaws' punch ecc.) . anyway,with rufy there,I think they would still win.

Zehahaha
April 09, 2012, 04:37 PM
I would say Supernova are more powerful if not at the moment then very soon. Here's my reasoning:

Zoro is somewhere around Mihawk's level, with Killer added Mihawk should go down.

Hancock is roughly as strong as her sisters, which makes here kind of weak except she's pretty awesome with haki. That being said nobody should just assume her DF is gonna KO anybody, otherwise I'll just assume Bonnie would KO everybody else.

Kuma is just a PX with an awesome DF now. That being said any one of the Supernova should have the ability to KO him if they can land a hit. Even if they don't Kidd would just rip him apart.

I apologize to all Crocodile fans in advance, but he's fodder. He's a character that relies completely on his DF, and oh yeah, you can use blood against him.

Donflamingo seems like a badass, but to be honest we know as much about him as we do about most of the Supernova.

Moria is another Shichibukai I have no respect for and assume most of the Supernova could beat. The guy had more than a year head start to steal shadows and build zombies and he still lost. I wonder if Luffy could make all of his zombies faint with a blast of haki now.

Jinbei is a strong fighter but at this point I assume Luffy could take him.

Blackbeard and Law I pretty much won't consider part of the Shichibukai for the sake of argument since one is now a Yonkou and the other a Shichibukai.

Anyway, whether you agree with how I described the Shichibukai or not, you have to admit that the Supernova are pretty powerful, powerful enough for one of them at least to become a Shichibukai. Then take into account there's 11 Supernova as opposed to only 7 Shichibukai.

I usually do like your posts, but this... Ok let's begin :


Zoro is somewhere around Mihawk's level, with Killer added Mihawk should go down.

Define Mihawk's level, prove that Zoro is close to him.
If Zoro just needs another punk to bring down one of the top dogs in the world, Mihawk should've lost his title long time ago.
The fact that : Mihawk is end game character, and that he's Zoro's main objective, and that we've just begun the second half of OP, it wouldn't make sense that he's close to Mihawk no matter how much you put it.


Hancock is roughly as strong as her sisters, which makes here kind of weak except she's pretty awesome with haki. That being said nobody should just assume her DF is gonna KO anybody, otherwise I'll just assume Bonnie would KO everybody else.

Once in a time, where the Supernovas were still noobs that could barely take out one Pacifista if not even one, Hancock back at the war was taking them out with just one kick... While her sister got pwned by gear second Luffy, and in his gear second, he couldn't even take a Pacifista solo. So yeah, saying that Hancock is roughly as strong as her sisters is... ridiculous.



Kuma is just a PX with an awesome DF now. That being said any one of the Supernova should have the ability to KO him if they can land a hit. Even if they don't Kidd would just rip him apart.

Poor Kidd couldn't even rip apart a normal Pacifista let alone Kuma...


I apologize to all Crocodile fans in advance, but he's fodder. He's a character that relies completely on his DF, and oh yeah, you can use blood against him.

Fodder ? Oh wow. If I go by your logic, WB should be fodder since he got hit by shitty Squardo too right ?


Moria is another Shichibukai I have no respect for and assume most of the Supernova could beat. The guy had more than a year head start to steal shadows and build zombies and he still lost. I wonder if Luffy could make all of his zombies faint with a blast of haki now.

His abilities are tricky, while he's a lazy fatso, his Kage kage no Mi is quite dangerous, and could be a one hit KO, especially since he does teammates here.


Jinbei is a strong fighter but at this point I assume Luffy could take him.

I do agree with you, I do see Luffy taking him out... But this is a team match, not 1vs1...

I do give this fight to the Shichibukai.

Page356
April 09, 2012, 04:56 PM
Well my guess with Zoro's strength is totally an opinion, but certainly not one that has been disproven. Kidd didn't know the PX was made of metal at the time, so who knows if he wouldn't just rip them apart? And if Kuma really has no personality left then he is just a PX with an amazing DF now. Crocodile....well I know you love the guy so I won't argue too much against him. If I were to give him any credit though it would be much more based on how clever he is and I would not compare him to WB and Squardo to Luffy. Finally for the Hancock thing I can't go back in check since because of mangareader, but if she kicked a Pacifica to death I owe you an apology.

eefrit
April 09, 2012, 06:51 PM
Well my guess with Zoro's strength is totally an opinion, but certainly not one that has been disproven.

Just because it hasn't been proven, does not make it true. Mihawk is Zoro's end goal. If Zoro were as powerful as Mihawk was right now, his character would be moot. He will not have to improve or anything which would be damn boring. Any and all future battles he will have will be easy as pie. He still needs the experience of the New World before he can even think about facing the Greatest Swordsman. Also, I'm sure Mihawk is a shrewd teacher. I'm sure he taught Zoro enough, but left some things to learn for himself. If they were to fight now, Mihawk would have more of an upper hand since he had a hand in Zoro development for the past two years, so he will know Zoro's moves and thoughts.


Kidd didn't know the PX was made of metal at the time, so who knows if he wouldn't just rip them apart? And if Kuma really has no personality left then he is just a PX with an amazing DF now.

Actually, if you recall correctly, Sentoumaru stated that the PX's of two years ago were outdated, meaning that Vegapunk has upgraded them in some as of yet seen way. Also, I would think that Kuma is the "master" build. Meaning that his parts, weaponary, and programming would be superior to his counterparts. We have yet to see how much stronger his complete transformation has made him.


Crocodile....well I know you love the guy so I won't argue too much against him. If I were to give him any credit though it would be much more based on how clever he is and I would not compare him to WB and Squardo to Luffy.

It's a forum my good man, you should be able to state your opinions if you have them:verily. But anywho, Crocodile is most certainly not fodder. The blood thing doesn't really matter anymore now that haki has been introduced, so that doesn't really matter. Besides, you can't really knock him for using his ability constantly, it's his ability. Which he had mastered to a incredible extent. Also, his "Pimp Hook" is not to be scoffed at, it withstood a blow with Mihawk's blade so it's pretty freaking awesome.


Finally for the Hancock thing I can't go back in check since because of mangareader, but if she kicked a Pacifica to death I owe you an apology.

I would link you to another page but, I'm incredibly paranoid about certain..."parties" and their shutting down of sites, so...yeah.

Oh and as for Jinbe, I think Luffy at best could tie with him...when not surrounded by water.

kkck
April 09, 2012, 11:28 PM
I don't think the question makes all that much sense. The supernova are a bunch of unaffiliated individuals to begin with so what exactly is the relevance of this question? We might as well get a bunch of random dudes and compare them to other people. Also, who exactly are we considering as shichibukai here? Is it the original group, the one with BB or the new one of whom we don't know half its members?

Anyways, if it is the original shichibukai I could see the supernova winning. I don't think any of them would individually defeat the likes of kuma, mihawk or hancock however there is the fact that the supernova would be more numerous. After the 2 year timeskip it does seem like most of the supernova would also have gone through severe power increases meaning they would be far from the worthless rookies they were back in the day, they would be people of actual strength. Moria was too weak to be a shichibukai to begin with so he would be a bit of a non issue here (IMO he would still defeat the pre time skip supernova in one on one fights where he fights coherently though). Crocodile is dangerous however if the likes of smoker can be dealt with even by law I don't see him lasting much on his own at least. Numbers alone would suggest the supernova would win IMO even if their individual strength would not match the 3 guys I mentioned earlier.

Page356
April 10, 2012, 01:12 AM
Well I think it's foolish to say that Mihawk being the best swordsman to the end of the series is set in stone (not including Zoro), or that you couldn't have an interesting and dynamic plot if Zoro defeated Mihawk at this point. An end game character, sure, but an end game goal? I wouldn't be so certain. It may be speculation but I think there's probably a swordsman or two to fight after Zoro defeats Mihawk, assuming of course that he does beat Mihawk before someone else does. My guess may not be likely but it isn't impossible.

Also Kuma may have been upgraded but we still don't know for certain that he was upgraded any beyond what the "new" Pacificas were. If they could make something that was completely loyal more powerful, I'm sure they would mass produce it. Plus he would still be made of metal. If Kidd knows this he will be able to take advantage unless Kuma knows haki. As I recall haki was something of a charasima mixed with fighting spirit? Anyway I assume being a full fledged cyborg may prevent that but I'm guessing but Kuma hasn't shown haki yet.

Zehahaha
April 10, 2012, 06:00 AM
Mihawk is an end game character, that has been overhyped since his very first appearance, and his fight vs Zoro is already being building up by Oda... He's the final obstacle for Zoro to reach his goal, and no character has the same charisma he have nor the same hype he have... It would be horrible to see someone out of nowhere being stronger than Mihawk when it comes to swordmanship (Shiryuu for instance).

@ kkck

Crocodile isn't Smoker who isn't Akainu who isn't Aokiji... I mean you get my point. I do agree with the Moria part, that guy is a piece of trash... but his DF ability is insanely dangerous, and I can see him being dangerous if he fights with a team, but not solo.


@ Page
You can state your opinion about Croco, but I just reacted to the fodder part... Fodder are people like Morgan... He's a mid tier fighter before the timeskip, I bet he got stronger too.

Impossibility
April 10, 2012, 06:47 AM
The problem with this battle is determining the combatants and their abilities. Does Team Shichibukai include every individual shown to hold the title during the manga, or simply those that are confirmed to currently occupy the positions, or the original Shichibukai? Is Law on Team Shichibukai or Team Supernova? Do you judge the Supernovae on what we've seen, only Luffy, Zoro, and Law have been seen post-time skip, or are we simply allowing for completely hypothetical power-ups, considering that actual measurs of power are impossible, for the unseen Supernovae after the timeskip? Is it logical to give the other Supernovae similar upgrades in power to Luffy and Zoro when they had to study under two of the world's most powerful fighters to attain those upgrades? But, anyways.

The Shichibukai are, on average, stronger than the Supernovae. Contrary to some arguments, not a single member of the Shichibukai has ever been fodder.

mattiaildivino
April 10, 2012, 08:31 AM
@Zehahah I agree with you,but to be honest...rufy couldn't defeat a px by himself either :p ...yet,no way rufy isn't stronger than the other supernovas,that's what shakky stated too,after all.

kkck
April 10, 2012, 12:49 PM
I don't think luffy would have been overwhelmingly superior to the other supernovas either if at all. At least kid, law, hawkins and drake seemed to be on the level to say the least and they indeed had some strong fruits to boot. Granted capone and bonney don't seem to be a big deal but still. Uroge could go either way, he was capable of exchanging some hits with a pacifista after all which is not a small feat at all.

mattiaildivino
April 11, 2012, 10:16 AM
I don't think luffy would have been overwhelmingly superior to the other supernovas either if at all. At least kid, law, hawkins and drake seemed to be on the level to say the least and they indeed had some strong fruits to boot. Granted capone and bonney don't seem to be a big deal but still. Uroge could go either way, he was capable of exchanging some hits with a pacifista after all which is not a small feat at all.

yeah,he gave him 3 punches,and then the px shot a beam and severly hurted him. also,rufy was at shichibukai level back then,I doubt the other would have been able to affect some of the 7.

kkck
April 11, 2012, 11:27 AM
Shichibukai level? The idea that luffy was such a thing back then is laughable lol. Crocodile gave him the fodder treatment 2 out of 3 times when they fought, not an overwhelming feat lol and quite frankly the whole thing seemed more plot induced and plain nonsensical than anything else(at least it suddenly seemed like he lost muh of his smarts and techniques lol). Moria was pretty much stated to be too weak to be a shichibukai to begin and even then it did not seem like luffy was overwhelmingly stronger if at all. heck, moria never really did anything himself and during the short fight he actually had with luffy moria had a reasonably large advantage and luffy only landed a somewhat lucky punch since moria was pretty much stationary at the time. BB would have destroyed luffy without significant issues. Luffy would have gotten the fodder treatment from a PX, against kuma he would not land a hit. Boa is someone whose strength was acknowledged by sengoku, I doubt luffy would have had a chance in hell. We saw a short bout between mihawk and luffy and luffy would not have been able to land a hit without mutilation, he was fodder. We have seen little of flamingo but I would argue that he would have had an easy victory against luffy if he could mutilate oars that easily and control one of the more apparently relevant VAs. Luffy was merely a rookie pirate during part 1.

And what could luffy do against a pacifista for that matter? It took his entire crew to barely take out one, I doubt he would have fared significantly better than urougue on his own.

mattiaildivino
April 11, 2012, 02:33 PM
yeah,what you did is right,more or less. about crocodile: rufy defeated him (while being still weaker than him) the 3rd time,but he couldn't still use gears. do you remember how easily he stopped crocodile who was about to hit WB(although the old man would have crushed him,he just knew someone else was about to intervene)? rufy's sweat could easily defeat crocodile,when he was worthy of 300 M.
Moria was weak,but his power is ambiguous,he is the only shichibukai who isn't strong on his own,but has got a power which may be stronger than the others if he steals a lot of others' shadows. yet,1 VS 1 and not tired,rufy would have kicked his ass nonetheless.
hancock's power was amazing because she could turn the others into stone,but rufy is immune to that,as was he against ener ("the supreme rogia").and haki doesn't make miracles,the 2 sisters lost despite being together and with haki. of course hancock's haki is stronger than theirs,but her hakushouku isn't an issue to rufy,cause his will is too strong to lose against it.
yet,shakky herself stated that the one really worthy of being over 300 M was rufy.

Zehahaha
April 11, 2012, 03:54 PM
yeah,what you did is right,more or less. about crocodile: rufy defeated him (while being still weaker than him) the 3rd time,but he couldn't still use gears. do you remember how easily he stopped crocodile who was about to hit WB(although the old man would have crushed him,he just knew someone else was about to intervene)? rufy's sweat could easily defeat crocodile,when he was worthy of 300 M.
Moria was weak,but his power is ambiguous,he is the only shichibukai who isn't strong on his own,but has got a power which may be stronger than the others if he steals a lot of others' shadows. yet,1 VS 1 and not tired,rufy would have kicked his ass nonetheless.
hancock's power was amazing because she could turn the others into stone,but rufy is immune to that,as was he against ener ("the supreme rogia").and haki doesn't make miracles,the 2 sisters lost despite being together and with haki. of course hancock's haki is stronger than theirs,but her hakushouku isn't an issue to rufy,cause his will is too strong to lose against it.
yet,shakky herself stated that the one really worthy of being over 300 M was rufy.

You gotta be shitting me
Luffy's sweat now ?

Even if Luffy with gear faced Crocodile again, it won't be a 100% victory at all. Remember, you don't need Soru to actually react to its speed... And Crocodile being a Shichibukai and an experienced pirate isn't for show...

In a sheer 1vs1 fight without Moria running and doing tricks, Luffy would've won, I agree, but then again, this is a team fight, which individuals vs individuals, and in this situation, and seeing how Moria is quite cunning, I could see him causing a lot of trouble.

Wait wat ? How did you know that Hancock's Haki is weaker to that of Luffy ? You making your own facts or what ? Besides, consider Haki as an accessory, it is incorporated into a person's fighting style, and also, we've seen Hancock turning Pacifistas into stone while she kicked them, and also turning objects into stone by using Slave Arrows... You don't need to fall in love to turn to stone... Unless canonballs do have feelings

kkck
April 11, 2012, 04:06 PM
Agreed, sweat wouldn't be enough to win here. Granted it would allow contact with crocodile as it already did however plot nonsense aside crocodile is still a fearsome guy to say the least. Luffy might have been miraculously unaffected by the poison back then and heck, he even punched through an attack which was supposed to dehydrate him (worst piece of writting oda ever did IMO) however if the luck factor and nonsense is removed there is a strong possibility of him losing out of sheer dehydration and tornadoes.

Now, I don't really think luffy would have won in a straight fight with regular moria back in the day. Moria's shadow was more than a match for regular luffy. Granted luffy did not use gears however moria did not even bother to move for 99% of the battle. Heck, he didn't even try any big and flashy attacks as he did against oars (who he could apparently one shot). Heck, luffy only actually won against moria after hitting him with the full might of his nightmare form and after moria ate all those shadows which ended up ridding the guy of his sanity and hurting him.

And yeah, we do not know how strong hancock's conqueror's haki is although its not like such a thing has actual battle applications. I would argue that she has full mastery over the other two types of haki and her overall strength is grossly underestimated at large. I wouldn't even be surprised if she was still stronger than luffy, there is a reason oda is waiting to show us her true capabilities.

mattiaildivino
April 12, 2012, 10:28 AM
You gotta be shitting me
Luffy's sweat now ?

Even if Luffy with gear faced Crocodile again, it won't be a 100% victory at all. Remember, you don't need Soru to actually react to its speed... And Crocodile being a Shichibukai and an experienced pirate isn't for show...

In a sheer 1vs1 fight without Moria running and doing tricks, Luffy would've won, I agree, but then again, this is a team fight, which individuals vs individuals, and in this situation, and seeing how Moria is quite cunning, I could see him causing a lot of trouble.

Wait wat ? How did you know that Hancock's Haki is weaker to that of Luffy ? You making your own facts or what ? Besides, consider Haki as an accessory, it is incorporated into a person's fighting style, and also, we've seen Hancock turning Pacifistas into stone while she kicked them, and also turning objects into stone by using Slave Arrows... You don't need to fall in love to turn to stone... Unless canonballs do have feelings

you are 100 %right for what concerns moria,his power in a situation like this would be hella useful! he'd just need to capture the shadow of an enemy almost defeated,to increase his own strength with his.
about crocodile,I still think luffy would own him,not 100% sure,though :)
about hancock,I didn't say her haki is weaker than rufy's,actually hers should be stronger. but rufy doesn't fear anyone,that's why he didn't fall down not even in front of rayleigh's hakushouku. (I think crocodile wouldn't fall either,he is too arrogant to fear someone,although he may be owned. I hope you get what I mean) that's to say that king haki is useful just against fodders,we haven't seen strong people defeated by it yet.

kkck
April 12, 2012, 12:33 PM
I don't think people of certain caliber would actually fall to anyones conqueror's haki. I sincerely doubt there is anyone out there who would have a shred of a chance of taking the likes of crocodile or pre time skip luffy with conqueror's haki alone. Heck, even ussop or nami did not fall down from rayleigh's haki... Fear is not what causes people to faint from conqueror's haki either for that matter.

Uriel
April 12, 2012, 08:12 PM
Well, to give him a point we haven't reached yet the knowledge of Haoshoku fully. It's known that can make fade enemies but...There must be something else to it. To be such a rare power, something else must be able to do and cause.

kkck
April 12, 2012, 08:27 PM
I maintain that the whole thing is mostly symbolic and it does not have actual battle applications against people with actual power. Since the strength of the conqueror's haki relies on character and strength of will, it simply serves to pinpoint people with particularly strong wills. I mean, we have seen it in use plenty of times to say the least by now and at most it has taken out fodder or scared a few critters unconscious. If it had any battle applications we would have seen it already at least against hodi considering luffy did not pull back his punches against the guy. In that particular regard, it would be perhaps better to not show it at all as it basically screams "I am going to be awesome in the future" to people who care. Heck, luffy became a target for the marines mostly after he used the conquerors haki... I guess it is true all the details about it have yet to be revealed though (probably, it is also perfectly possible Rayleigh's explanation is just about as far as oda will ever go on the haki subject considering it covered a decent bit on the topic).

mattiaildivino
April 13, 2012, 08:46 AM
jaws and marco commented shank's haki,stating that to bear it you must be ready to fight him. usop and nami didn't fall because they didn't fear rayleigh,but in a fight that should have made them fall down. although i think nami's intelligence would allow her to stand still,since she is not like usop: her will is strong(remember when she faced kuma)

kkck
April 13, 2012, 10:54 AM
I don't think marco and jozu ever said that... if I recall it was simply either a mention of not being determined or strong enough to bear it. I don't think fear alone should make a difference here for that matter. Remember the other times luffy used his conqueror's haki? He used it during the kuja fight and during the marineford war. Why would the kuja or marines and pirates that fell down be afraid of him? Heck, the kuja clearly believed luffy was not worth a damn and he even knocked out mr 3 who was at the time luffy's ally. Rayleigh went as far as complementing them (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2611-12/one-piece/chapter-504.html) for taking the full blow of it and not fainting. Its not like they would not be afraid of the dark king either. I don't think fear has anything to do with this, it is merely willpower and strength that make a difference.

mattiaildivino
April 13, 2012, 03:29 PM
you are a bit right :) anyway,that's the page I was talking about: http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-4/one-piece/chapter-434.html . hakushouku requires determination to be faced.

Kaiten
April 13, 2012, 06:50 PM
jaws and marco commented shank's haki,stating that to bear it you must be ready to fight him. usop and nami didn't fall because they didn't fear rayleigh,but in a fight that should have made them fall down. although i think nami's intelligence would allow her to stand still,since she is not like usop: her will is strong(remember when she faced kuma)

Usop and Nami did not fall because Luffy did not fall. Laws crew did not fall because Law did not fall, Kid's crew stood because Kid continued to stand. The Strawhats drawing strength from Luffy has been a theme running through the entire series. As long as Luffy is determined, so are they. It does not matter whether that means standing up against Rayleigh's haki or fighting on after Gecko Moria stole their shadows. Thus it does not matter how strong or weak the individual Strawhats are, as long as Luffy is captain they do not believe anyone can stop them. Kid and Law's crew must feel the same, for not a single one fell to Rayliegh's haki.

There would have been no difference, had it been a fight: Rayliegh's haki would not have any more effect on Nami, Usop, or any of the Strawhats. As long as Luffy was ready to fight they would have stood their ground. Fear has nothing to do with it either. Usop is afraid of everything, he certainly would have been afraid of Rayliegh's haki in the auction house. But Usop always overcomes his fear through determination to fight on. That is why he did not fall. That is why none of the Strawhats, Heart Pirates, or Kid Pirates fell.

eefrit
April 13, 2012, 09:11 PM
Usopp and Nami did not fall because Rayleigh didn't want them to fall. Rayleigh sent out a wave of Haki that was meant to knock out everyone in the auction house but the slaves and the Strawhats. Kidd and most of Law's crew withstood the burst of Haki because they were strong enough to. He didn't intend for them to withstand it, that's why he commended them. He explained to Luffy that one must learn to control his Conqueror's Haki less they knock out innocents (http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html).

After the time-skip, Luffy has displayed finesse in his own showing of Haki, against the fake Strawhats in a large crowd at Shaboady and against the 50,000 fishman on Fishman Island. Both times he avoided knocking civilians. So it can't be based in fear, only in determination. That's why it's called King's Disposition. Their determination and spirit is so great, that those who don't have enough determination and spirit of their own can't withstand their great presence.

kkck
April 14, 2012, 01:03 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2611-12/one-piece/chapter-504.html

I don't think rayleigh actually picked his targets back there. I think he shot it in all directions and the strawhats simply took it all.

Kaiten
April 14, 2012, 11:02 AM
Hard to say. He had already recognized Hachi and Luffy (by way of Rogers Strawhat). Still, to say that he selectively excluded the Strawhats seems to be reading more into the scene than actually happened. To me it seemed more like he used his haki on everyone and it happened that the Strawhats, Kid Pirates, and Heart Pirates were left standing. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v52/c503/18.html

Back on topic I must say that I do not understand the topic :(
Haven't we already seen that the neither the Shichibukai nor Supernova are uniform in power? They do not fight collectively as a crew, so aggregate power is ultimately meaningless. What then becomes the basis for comparison? How do we judge as a group if aggregate power is meaningless and power levels vary from individual to individual within each organization?

mattiaildivino
April 15, 2012, 05:06 PM
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2611-12/one-piece/chapter-504.html

I don't think rayleigh actually picked his targets back there. I think he shot it in all directions and the strawhats simply took it all.

or maybe it can't be focused on anyone,unlike yamamoto's reiatsu against kyoraku's vice-captain.
forgive me kaiten,but I don't think that they stayed there because of their captains. in fact,the child in law's crew did lose consciousness. the other answer should be that they are all strong,and that they are determined-adult enough to stand it.

hoeru
April 15, 2012, 09:34 PM
LOL... Shachi said that he was about to lose consciousness - so he didn't lose it. And later Rayleigh says on Ruskaina that Luffy needs to be careful so he won't overpower even the ones close to him. So it's clear that Rayleigh did nothing but STOP his Haki once he saw that all he wanted to knock out were down. There's nothing to mystify about whether or not Rayleigh selected people or not. He didn't and then was "surprised" that Law's and Kid's crew were able to withstand the Haoushoku burst to take out the ones with a weak will power and no determinition. Just like when he took out Disco who's in case of determinition weaker than Caimie and his own men.

About the Shichibukai vs. Supernova debate. Before timeskip, I think Kid, Hawkins, Law, Bege and X Drake would have been able to beat Moriah, and Sir Crocodile. All of them appeared smart enough to figure out their weaknesses. And additionally, Moriah would have had a hard time to rebuild their DF power for Oars. :D

As for the other Shichibukai. I think only Law would have some sort of a chance against Jinbe and Hancock. But Kuma, and Doflamingo? No. Even though the bounties don't count only for power, they are somehow reflecting a character being dangerous. And without going too much into detail: Jinbe would blast off the other supernovas with his Fishman Karate. Hancock would petrify anything the supernovae would throw at her and then take all of them down.

But now... I don't think there's any reliable prediction to make after the timeskip. And even with that poster, we can't know if they actually are still alive.

kkck
April 15, 2012, 11:02 PM
To be completely honest I never particularly thought much of hancock's petrification. Granted, it is a killer move however I really cannot see it working in the heat of battle. The ability is based on thoughts of lust and whatnot and the manga has conclusively proven that it plainly does not work in people who can resist those thoughts either through pain(momomga) or self control(luffy... kinda...). Even in the momonga situation we have to consider the guy did not go there to fight, he went to talk to her which is not exactly a situation which can altogether avoid impure thoughts so to speak. I really cannot imagine a experienced warrior falling to the petrification thingy in the heat of battle in this regard, it makes no sense to me. Granted it seems she has arrows which have a similar effect however they were only used against not exceptional people, odds are a more powerful fighters would be able to avoid or counter them (maybe haki, maybe an ability, possibilities are endless depending on the fighter). I don't see why flamingo or kuma would be more dangerous than her or even jinbe for that matter either. Why would they be so much stronger? Even ivankov was able to fight on par with kumar for a while and if we take his word kuma even feared ivankov a bit at some point. Kuma's ability seems hax because we have seen him fight against powerless fodder for the most part such as the strawhats or random dudes at the war, the bit with ivankov proves that people with actual power won't simply be repelled and whatnot. Hancock has complete mastery of haki, ranged techniques, she seems to be at least a proficient martial artist and she has yet to even show what she can do with salome, to me it would make sense that she was actually stronger than flamingo or kuma.

hoeru
April 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
Only Mero Mero Mellow needs Hancock's attraction. Pistol Kiss works without (on Luffy). Perfume Femur works without (Pacifista OHKO). Slave Arrow works without (Cannon Balls don't have emotions). All are DF based, and I don't see how the pre-timeskip Supernovae would defend against them - aside from Law and Hawkins maybe - nor do I see how they'd be able to attack her - aside from Law.