If Itachi was the Godaime Hokage....

[Shinomori Aoshi]

I was wondering... Wouldn't it be less life-costing and clan-wiping out to have Itachi appointed as the fifth Hokage? The third had already stepped down once before in favor of Minato. Itachi was certainly very loyal to the village and a move like that would have halted any attempts of coup d'etat from the Uchiha, since one of their own was the head of the village. Aside from obvious plot reasons -which actually are the most probable cause- there could have been two other reasons (that I can think of):

1) Itachi wasn't considered strong enough. And so Minato was indeed that awesome (no irony intended).
2) The rest of the village were indeed shunning the Uchiha and they were not going to give the Hokage title to any Uchiha, ever.

What are your thoughts? Can you think of any other reasons?

[Zehahaha]

I've always found it strange that no Uchiha was ever a Hokage. In terms of strenght, I don't think they lack it... But I think the reason is because of the policy that Konoha followed after Uchiha Madara's so called defeat. It would've been a good move to make Itachi or any Uchiha before a Hokage, they're one of the foundators of Konoha after all.

[THM Nindo]

Yeah, that would have been a great move from Hiruzen to do that.
Hiruzen was already old, and was ready to retire (he already retired before that).

And Itachi was certainly strong enough to be Kage material at that time.

No a plothole, but certainly something that would require an explanation...
I wonder if Kishi even thought about it...

[Xiraiya]

To be honest I think it was a massive oversight on Kishi's behalf, Itachi was Loyal enough to Konoha to destroy his own clan for the sake of the village, he was extremely powerful and a very calm and collected person, I agree that Sarutobi really should have prepared Itachi to take over as Hokage.

It would have solved everything except Madara

Also, Konoha in general would have been a much stronger village because of it.

[DementedKirby]

Sometimes the best answers are the simplest ones. However, if Itachi would've been Hokage, I think that Danzou would've had a fit and found the way to betray Itachi and cause the civil war in the first place.

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

Lol, with Itachi as Hokage, Orochimaru would've failed miserably in his invasion of Konoha. Also, when Madara cam around with Akatsuki, they would've lost as well. But I think that Itachi was way too young to be Hokage. I mean, I believe he was younger than 20 years old when he murdered his clan.

[DaHeroic1]

Itachi was definently strong,intelligent, and wise enough to become Hokage but their's plenty of reason why he probally never got the chance. The guy killed his clan at the age of thirteen i believe so he was to young. Also remember if he doesn't kill his clan he never has the whole falling out with Shisui so he doesn't gain MS. MS makes Itachi one of the higher s class ninja in the manga but without it he's basically around high jonin level but if he did have ms having a Hokage who will go blind in a few years is definently not a good idea lol. Also at this point in time Jiraiya and Tsunade were still around so Hiruzen most likely looked towards them as his replacement once he died. An Uchiha would never become hokage no matter how strong they were bc Madara basically screwed up everything for them lol. From his revolt,to kyubbi incident,akatsuki,etc.

[Whiskey]

Lol, with Itachi as Hokage, Orochimaru would've failed miserably in his invasion of Konoha. Also, when Madara cam around with Akatsuki, they would've lost as well. But I think that Itachi was way too young to be Hokage. I mean, I believe he was younger than 20 years old when he murdered his clan.

According to Naruto-Wikia Itachi was seventeen/eighteen at his debut. I’m unsure if Sasuke had been given an exact age at the time of his clans death, but following the timeline logically, he’d be between the ages of eight to ten years old (I could be totally wrong, and for that I apologize). So, with a bit of math, Itachi would be around thirteen to fifteen (give or take (and yikes! he already had a lover)) when the concept of mass murder began to be a good idea.

Also, even if Itachi had been made Hokage, there would be no guarantee that the rest of the Uchiha would have been entirely appeased. Perhaps they would have wanted more reputation/political power/holdings if their golden boy was on the throne. Obviously the Uchiha were no strangers to forceful action if their desires were not met. Either way, I believe Itachi would of still had certain challenges with his family (while, perhaps not to such a degree); additionally his popularity wouldn’t have been so stellar at the time.

Danzō would have done everything in his power to oppose Itachi anyway. The other elders, I’m unsure, but it’s evident they did not fancy the Uchiha name.

[DementedKirby]

It's their own fault for not being around the night Madara attacked Konoha. How convenient. Besides, any way you slice it, an Uchiha attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Oh, and Itachi was skilled enough to defeat Shisui to awaken the Mangekyou to begin with. Shisui. He iced Shisui. Before he had the Mangekyou. The Uchiha Shisui. Before obtaining the Mangekyou. 'Nough said.

[M3J]

The problem is, Itachi would have been too young to be a hokage. not even Gaara was that young when he became kazekage, and only because a kage was needed, and he was the best choice. Kakashi was old enough to be a hokage, and they still had Jiraiya as well as others. Apart from Madara, we haven't really known, seen, or heard about any extraordinary Uchiha until Itachi popped up.

[mattiaildivino]

itachi was dying then he couldn't have been hokage for long. anyway he was stronger than tsunade then he could :p

[jorped]

Though Itachi was very young, no one can say that he wasn't already Kage material, so why not nominate him as the next Hokage, instead of putting in charge Hiruzen, the previous hokage ?

This is a really good question, and for now we can't really do nothing more than speculate. I don't think that we know the all story behind the Uchiha's clan destruction, and the last chapter proved it. We all thought that Madara had helped Itachi killing his friends and family, but that wasn't really the case as we can see at the bottom panel.

http://img.mangastream.com/m/1/30783368/eafa92a5ec8e6fce0499bac3def7b1db.png

So is very expectable that Kishi is going to say something more about this and the part that i am most interested to get to know is the reasons why Itachi had to do that "mission". We know that Uchihas are possibly conspiring but that for me is still to vague.

And though some people like Hiruzen might agree to nominate Uchiha as the 5th Hokage, the same i can't say about Hanzo and possibly the other elders. We all know that Hanzo was pretty interested on the sharingan, so if Itachi was the 5th Hokage, there wouldn't be possibly any Uchiha massacre, and this way he wouldn't get them.

And we all know why Itachi died. His health wasn't that good, but did Itachi already suffered from it during that time ? If so, that's a good reason for not nominate him as the 5th Hokage.

It is also possible that Kishi might have not even thought about this, but even if that's the case it isn't a plot hole. Either way, we can only be sure, when we get more info about the Uchiha massacre. And we might get to know it even on the next chapter based on the way the story is going :zomg

[shafagh]

... and all of you have any guarantee that Itachi wouldn't massacre leaf's people for peace !? ( for sake of peace :BlahBlah
_________________________________________
I think Itachi was so young for becoming hokage but Uchiha had another strong ninja for becoming hokage after 4th death , Uchiha Shisui ...
( and shisui was the first man who get killed:confused: )

[Shinomori Aoshi]

I don't think it was Itachi's decision to slay his clan; he just abided by the orders from above. He was probably against the decision (I mean if there was another way, like what Hiruzen believed), but couldn't help but execute it, much like Yashamaru and Gaara.

Shisui's case is complicated already, and you're making it even more complicated! I believe there are three possible scenarios about Shisui's death:
1) Itachi killed him to obtain Mangekyou Sharingan so that he can obtain enough power to dispose of his clan -or had his own reasons.
2) It was an order from the elders.
3) Somebody else killed him/he committed suicide and Itachi was there to witness it, thus obtaining the Mangekyou.

But I suppose Shisui could have been another candidate, though we're not sure if he was loyal to the village or to his clan only.

[Rarhyx]

danzou and the elders....
i bet it would have cost more lifes if itachi would be hokage

[zerocooldx]

It's their own fault for not being around the night Madara attacked Konoha. How convenient. Besides, any way you slice it, an Uchiha attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Oh, and Itachi was skilled enough to defeat Shisui to awaken the Mangekyou to begin with. Shisui. He iced Shisui. Before he had the Mangekyou. The Uchiha Shisui. Before obtaining the Mangekyou. 'Nough said.

Itachi was like 13 or 14 years old when he left Konoha. I mean yeah thats young, but Gaara was also pretty young when he became Kazekage. And Yagura looks to have been a young teen when "he" was Mizukage as well. This is one of those burning "what if.." questions. Regardless of how strong Itachi was and whatnot, he showcased one of if not the best example of leadership in the entire manga. He was faced with an impossibly difficult decision and he quite literally decided to sacrifice his family for the sake and well being of the entire village. All of the Uchiha and Senju and Konoha elders stuff aside, Itachi would have been a great Hokage, yet i doubt that he would have accepted such a position.

[THM Nindo]

It's their own fault for not being around the night Madara attacked Konoha. How convenient. Besides, any way you slice it, an Uchiha attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi.

Oh, and Itachi was skilled enough to defeat Shisui to awaken the Mangekyou to begin with. Shisui. He iced Shisui. Before he had the Mangekyou. The Uchiha Shisui. Before obtaining the Mangekyou. 'Nough said.

Well, we don't know how his fight went against Shusui.
I might just have stab him in his back.

He was his best friend, so there's no way that Shusui would have expected it.

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------


This is a really good question, and for now we can't really do nothing more than speculate. I don't think that we know the all story behind the Uchiha's clan destruction, and the last chapter proved it. We all thought that Madara had helped Itachi killing his friends and family, but that wasn't really the case as we can see at the bottom panel.

http://img.mangastream.com/m/1/30783368/eafa92a5ec8e6fce0499bac3def7b1db.png

Madara did help Itachi.

Itachi just wasn't aware that Madara knew that he was doing it under the Elders' order.

[Suzaku]

I think being an Uchiha alone would probably be a big enough controversy to keep any Uchiha from ascending to the rank of Hokage. The elders likely wouldn't allow it. And Itachi was young and traumatized by the Third Shinobi World War, don't forget.

[Vengeance]

Itachi was to young to be considered for such a position. Danzou & the elders also would have had a problem with it. Had Itachi been made Hokage he wouldn't have gained MS. Without MS Itachi wouldn't be nearly as strong & probably wouldn't be strong enough (Kakashi & Guy were stronger & more experienced) to even be considered for such a position.

The only alternative would be to make Fugaku Hokage which really wouldn't have been in the best interest for the Senju side of Konoha.

[syx]

Without MS Itachi wouldn't be nearly as strong & probably wouldn't be strong enough (Kakashi & Guy were stronger & more experienced) to even be considered for such a position.

You are sure?

Kakashi -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-75-3/naruto/chapter-70.html
Itachi without MS -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-350-10/naruto/chapter-345.html

Yes, Itachi had MS back then, but he didn't use it in this situation.

[DementedKirby]

Well, we don't know how his fight went against Shusui.
I might just have stab him in his back.

He was his best friend, so there's no way that Shusui would have expected it.

---------- Post added at 07:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------



Madara did help Itachi.

Itachi just wasn't aware that Madara knew that he was doing it under the Elders' order.

And for what other reason would Itachi have murdered his clan? That in itself is suspicious. Too suspicious even for Madara to trust him if he ever went to him to ask for help in massacring them. I think that Itachi killed them on his own and then sought out Madara.

[Xiraiya]

And for what other reason would Itachi have murdered his clan? That in itself is suspicious. Too suspicious even for Madara to trust him if he ever went to him to ask for help in massacring them. I think that Itachi killed them on his own and then sought out Madara.


Itachi looked like an arrogant madman who's genius nature had gotten the better of him, he wanted to destroy the clan to test his power, its what he said for years, he played on Madara's resentment towards the Uchiha to have him agree to help.

Even though Madara already knew the truth probably from Danzo but went along with it for the sake of not having Itachi turn on him, I mean Itachi was ridiculous at thinking ahead, if he knew Madara knew the truth from the beginning, I guarantee he probably would have done more to stop Madara.

Honestly I'd be curious to see what Madara would have thought about the idea of Itachi being the Hokage.

[Nieuwsgierig]

Almost everyone used Itachi as a pawn. The Uchiha clan did in their conspiracy, Danzou did in his plan to destroy the Uchiha, Madara did. Maybe he just isn't leadership material. Tsunade for instance doesn't take crap from anyone, even against four Kage she was still fighting for her point. And she is the worst of all five Hokage. Would Itachi have been able to make hard decisions to save his village? Would he have killed his own pupil if he tried to attack the village? Would he have sacrificed someone close to him? Itachi loved Sasuke more than Konoha, could he have killed him or used him as a weapon to stop Madara? I think Itachi is too gentil to be Hokage, he wasn't ruthless enough to do anything to save the village.

[Xiraiya]

Almost everyone used Itachi as a pawn. The Uchiha clan did in their conspiracy, Danzou did in his plan to destroy the Uchiha, Madara did. Maybe he just isn't leadership material. Tsunade for instance doesn't take crap from anyone, even against four Kage she was still fighting for her point. And she is the worst of all five Hokage. Would Itachi have been able to make hard decisions to save his village? Would he have killed his own pupil if he tried to attack the village? Would he have sacrificed someone close to him? Itachi loved Sasuke more than Konoha, could he have killed him or used him as a weapon to stop Madara? I think Itachi is too gentil to be Hokage, he wasn't ruthless enough to do anything to save the village.

See this is where I disagree, Itachi was a spy, he had to play along, if you look at everything hes done, he has been playing along for his own Agenda, Konoha were lucky that he loves the Village, he was joining in on the conspiracy as a Konoha spy, he may have been Madara's pawn at an earlier point in time for the sake of learning, but in reality we know Madara saw Itachi as a legitimate threat to him and in some ways feared him due to how powerful he became.

Itachi is a true Ninja, he plays the role that is needed to play at any given time for the sake of what he feels is in his best interest, or what he thinks is for the greater good.

He would be like Minato, smart, kind and powerful, but also able to do the dirty work as a Village Leader when he is required to do so.

[Vengeance]

You are sure?

Kakashi -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-75-3/naruto/chapter-70.html
Itachi without MS -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-350-10/naruto/chapter-345.html

Yes, Itachi had MS back then, but he didn't use it in this situation.
Which really means nothing since he beat Orochimaru with Genjutsu. In a straight up fight Orochimaru would have merced Itachi. At the time of the massacre Kakashi already had a sharingan & has had years of practice with it at that point. Itachi was only able to utilize genjutsu against Kakashi when he activated Tsukiyomi. In this situation Itachi wouldn't have MS so he wouldn't have been able to cast Tsukiyomi. Guy practiced techniques for countering sharingan genjutsu for years because of Kakashi. So yes I'm sure they'd both kick Itachi's ass at that point.

[syx]

Which really means nothing since he beat Orochimaru with Genjutsu.
I don't understand your point? Genjutsu doesn't count now or what? :super


In a straight up fight Orochimaru would have merced Itachi.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-145-5/naruto/chapter-140.html
There is no evidence that shows Orochimaru fighting the Mangekyou Sharingan till that time, yet he admits that Itachi is stronger than himself.


At the time of the massacre Kakashi already had a sharingan & has had years of practice with it at that point. Itachi was only able to utilize genjutsu against Kakashi when he activated Tsukiyomi. In this situation Itachi wouldn't have MS so he wouldn't have been able to cast Tsukiyomi. Guy practiced techniques for countering sharingan genjutsu for years because of Kakashi. So yes I'm sure they'd both kick Itachi's ass at that point.
Itachi without Mangekyou Sharingan was playing with Kakashi and gave him a run for his money -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-12/naruto/chapter-142.html
And Kakashi states that Itachi didn't show his full power.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-13/naruto/chapter-142.html
This page confirms that Kakashi probably knew about MS, because he ordered Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes. But Kakashi was also shocked when Itachi activated his MS. So Kakashi never take MS into account, when he referred to Itachis "full power".

[Vengeance]

I don't understand your point? Genjutsu doesn't count now or what? :super
Natural inherited ability does not equate skill. My point is simple Orochimaru is a more skilled shinobi when compared to Itachi.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-145-5/naruto/chapter-140.html
There is no evidence that shows Orochimaru fighting the Mangekyou Sharingan till that time, yet he admits that Itachi is stronger than himself.
Whether or not Itachi had MS is irrelevant. My point is simple without the use of genjutsu Itachi wouldn't have won.



Itachi without Mangekyou Sharingan was playing with Kakashi and gave him a run for his money -> http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-12/naruto/chapter-142.html
And Kakashi states that Itachi didn't show his full power.
Playing with Kakashi lol. Yeah ok Kakashi was able to keep up with Itachi's movement while protecting his team at the same time.


http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-13/naruto/chapter-142.html
This page confirms that Kakashi probably knew about MS, because he ordered Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes. But Kakashi was also shocked when Itachi activated his MS. So Kakashi never take MS into account, when he referred to Itachis "full power".
Again you miss the point entirely. Normal genjutsu wouldn't have stopped Kakashi because he has a sharingan. This isn't a real hard concept to grasp.

[syx]

My point is simple Orochimaru is a more skilled shinobi when compared to Itachi.
I disagree, but respect your opinion.


My point is simple without the use of genjutsu Itachi wouldn't have won.
That may be true. The same goes for every character in the shinobi world. Raikage without his Speed/Cloak, Naruto without Kyuubi, Minato without Hiraishin, Orochimaru without his body modifications, Gai without gates, Oonoki without Jinton....?


Playing with Kakashi lol. Yeah ok Kakashi was able to keep up with Itachi's movement while protecting his team at the same time.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-147-9/naruto/chapter-142.html
"my eyes can't even keep up with him"
And we all know, that the Sharingan predicts the movements of your opponent and you react to it. It's the same like Lee vs Sasuke. Itachi is too fast (body movement + handseal) for Kakashi to keep up.



Again you miss the point entirely. Normal genjutsu wouldn't have stopped Kakashi because he has a sharingan. This isn't a real hard concept to grasp.
Again, that may be right, too. But don't forget that Genjutsu is not the only thing in "Base Itachis" arsenal. He is faster and can perfom seals and clones even Kakashi with his sharingan wouldn't notice.

[sapherosth]

You do realize you're saying that a 13 year old Itachi is capable of defeating a 21 year old Kakashi right? Like really now you are aware of what you're actually trying to imply right? Seriously dude no way in hell that would happen.

PS: You missed my point entirely about Orochimaru like most fanboys do. I'll make it as simple as possible for you. Normal genjutsu won't work on Kakashi because he has a sharingan. The only reason Oro was even mentioned was because you decided to show a picture of him getting defeated by genjutsu. Get it got it good moving on.




Yeah... and that 13 year old beat Orochimaru.... who everybody in the village feared so much.....

Also... the latest chapter just shows his skill even without MS...


also... that 13 year old killed one of the strongest clan...... i doubt kakashi can do that...

[syx]

You do realize you're saying that a 13 year old Itachi is capable of defeating a 21 year old Kakashi right? Like really now you are aware of what you're actually trying to imply right? Seriously dude no way in hell that would happen.

I don't remember saying that. Just wanted to point out that the gap between Itachi without MS and Orochimaru/Kakashi isn't that huge like you claimed.
There is not a single page that shows Orochimaru fighting against Itachi with MS and still he acknowledged his strength after getting hit by a non-MS Genjutsu.
And there is Kakashi who only knew Itachi as a "kid" (until their encounter in Part 1) without MS and still said Itachi is more powerful than he showed so far.



I'll make it as simple as possible for you. Normal genjutsu won't work on Kakashi because he has a sharingan. The only reason Oro was even mentioned was because you decided to show a picture of him getting defeated by genjutsu. Get it got it good moving on.

And even without Genjutsu an MS Itachi would have good chances against Kakashi in Part 1.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

Maybe you should reconsider... A 13 year old Itachi defeated and killed half of his clan, which by the way is none other than the Uchiha clan of true Sharingan masters, and that includes people way over 21 years old. Kakashi is skilled alright, but has a borrowed Sharingan and cannot be compared in the use of said Sharingan eye with a true successor of it. Moreover, Itachi demonstrated normal genjutsu on Sasuke on several occasions, including their final clash with Sasuke with him at his peak of his pre-Mangekyou power. So, yes, a normal Itachi genjutsu affects Sharingan wielders.

[syx]

The topic in question is about Itachi becoming Hokage instead of killing off his clan. At that time he was 13 years old. My original statement was to mention that Itachi wasn't the strongest in Konoha during this time there for he wouldn't be qualified to become Hokage. You disagreed with my assessment & went on a fanboy rant.
But Itachi already showcased to be qualified to become Hokage. Orochimarus statement (who was a candidate for the 4th Hokage position too) is prove enough.


You do realize that Itachi's genjutsu paralyzed Orochimaru right? Stop fanning & stick to the facts.

I don't know what your problem with Genjutsu is. Yeah Itachi paralyzed him. Orochimaru wanted to break it, but failed because Itachi cut Orochimarus hand off.
He could have tortured him for 10 years if he wanted without relying on MS.



Which means what or changes what exactly?
That means the kid without MS is on the same league like Kakashi. You said that Itachi without MS wouldn't be strong enough for the Hokage position and that Kakashi was stronger than him.


Stop being an idiot for a second will you. If Itachi was offered the position of Hokage in an effort to calm down the Uchiha he wouldn't have been sent on a mission to kill Shisui in the first place. Meaning he never would have gotten MS. Get it yet or do I need to draw you a picture?
Nobody is denying that. But the argument he wouldn't be strong enough for this position without MS is wrong.

[juUnior]

Wow fanboys are rampant. News flash he did it with genjutsu.
And what about that? Genjutsu is part of his arsenal.


He hasn't landed a single hit on Naruto or B.
No, he landed 'a single hit' on Bee: genjutsu he put him in. Of course its Bee we're talking about so he wasn't affected in the end, but still.. he had been hit.

[kkck]

I very much doubt the village would have been to eager to have a 13 year old uchiha as hokage. Even if there weren´t viable candidates such a thing would have set a bad precedent IMO. If itachi had been made hokage to apeace the uchiha then that would have meant that the uchiha could simply plan to revolt every time the kage was not one of their own. More so, the uchiha were the main suspects of the kyubi attack years earlier meaning they were believed to be directly responsible for the death of the previous hokage, the previous jinchuiriki (and konoha´s weapon for war) and the death of several nameless konoha shinobi. They obviously were not responsible for any of that, specially itachi, however since most of the suspicion fell on them it really made no sense for an uchiha to be appointed hokage.

More so, I would think there would have been other more viable candidates at the time. Even if not at sannin level yet kakashi had a respectable 20 years by then, he would have been a far better and more reasonable choice by then IMO. Heck, he had a sharingan which as far as the village is concerned would have made him the ideal guy to stop the uchiha should something happen. Tsunade and jiraiya were also still around back then, even if not in the village. Either of them would have been a far better choice under any circumstances than a 13 year old.

[Lunatic Scream]

Actually he didn't. Itachi showed that he was the best of the Uchiha not that he was the best in Konoha. Big difference here.


OMFG how is it hard to understand? Genjutsu wouldn't work on Kakashi there for using Itachi's win against Orochimaru as a basis for defeating Kakashi is irrelevant since that same tactic wouldn't work. Are you really that stupid or are you trying to be annoying?


Doesn't that make him more qualified to be Hokage than Kakashi? Even if you want to argue that Itachi couldn't defeat Kakashi at that point, he could defeat the shinobi Konoha feared most (Orochimaru), something Kakashi certainly couldn't do. Fact is, if 13 year old Itachi only couldn't defeat a superior Sharingan user with his genjutsu, and at that point in time the only one around was Kakashi (which he'd soon surpass anyway), he'd probably be better suited to protecting the village as Hokage.

Basically, Sharingan Genjutsu is just that overpowered, and unless he's facing a Sharingan, even someone like Orochimaru is powerless against him.

You're basically arguing that Kakashi is better suited to be Hokage at the time because he could possibly defeat Itachi, even if he can't defeat more substantial threats to the village.

As for Guy? Eh. He SAID he had developed a way to fight a Sharingan user, but he was just talking about Kakashi, who really has no substantial ability with Genjutsu. Lack of information makes that a moot point.

[syx]

Actually he didn't. Itachi showed that he was the best of the Uchiha not that he was the best in Konoha. Big difference here.
Nobody claimed that Itachi was the strongest in Konoha. Where did you get that from? I only mentioned that he was qualified enough to get the title of Hokage, not that he would have been the best choice.
Would he be the strongest Kage? Hell no. Would he be the strongest Hokage? Definitely not.


OMFG how is it hard to understand? Genjutsu wouldn't work on Kakashi there for using Itachi's win against Orochimaru as a basis for defeating Kakashi is irrelevant since that same tactic wouldn't work. Are you really that stupid or are you trying to be annoying?
I already said that (in my opinion) Itachi without MS is on the same level (with or without Genjutsu) as Kakashi in Part 1. I am saying that because Itachi had the edge in their fight in Part 1 without using MS or Genjutsu.
Furthermore Kakashi (who only knew what the 13 year old kid Itachi is capable of) told that he didn't show his full power yet. Isn't that prove enough that Anbu Itachi was equal in strength with Kakashi? I am not saying he would stomp or beat Kakashi. Only that they were equal in power.


Actually kid Itachi is not in the same league as an adult Kakashi or Guy.

How so when both Kakashi & Guy would have been able to kick his ass in a fight at the time?
Our opinions differ. I can live with that, but it seems you have problem respecting other opinions, so you have to be insulting and call them fanboys, stupid or whatever.

[lordHokage]

Itachi is definitely Hokage material but that will happen if Naruto somehow convince the council members that he has Konoha's best interest at heart. :amuse

[pantelis2006]

Itachi udoubtedly had the potential to be Hokage. The thing is, for this powerful position you have to be approved by the elder lords. There are many factors...Age, lineage, strength, experience, leadership skills and maybe more. I think that, regarding the relationship between the Uchihas and the rest of the village, Itachi could not be favored. Additionally, he was too young. IMO Itachi was perfect for being ANBU leader and double agent.

I can't understand you people considering Itachi without MS. It's Itachi, he HAD MS and that puts him among the five top ninja of the manga. This is the reason he was famous...for butchering his clan and his MS. This point makes no sense.

[Xiraiya]

I think one of the problems with this discussion is some of us forgot Itachi was only 13 at the time due to the fact the guy never looked younger than 16-18.

Itachi at the beginning of the series to present day would have been more than ideal as a Hokage candidate, but during the massacre days I guess he probably wouldn't have been ready yet.

[Diablos]

In my opinion he was hokage material already not only in skills but psycologically too he is the only Uchiha with the true will of fire after all he would go to hell for the village and come back, but, even if apointed I doubt he would be the way things were, especially seeing these last chapters where Itachi says Shishui taught him that a true ninja is the one that acts in the shadows. I also believe he is more of that kind of ninja. But be not mistaken that if it came to that he would do it, he has that much love for peace and the village, kinda like kakashi he also show's no interest in it but if it was the only option of course he was going to step in.

[Rosebunse]

Sure, he was very strong, but he was about 13! Were any of you mature enough to take care of your pets or siblings, let alone a country, at 13? If he had still been in the village when he was 20, then yes, I think he would have done a great job, but part of the tragedy of Itachi is that his life was more or less cut-short because of the decisions made by a group of old people who had already lived their lives.

I think in arguments about Itachi, this is where many people get hung up whether they are aware of it or not. He could have been great, but he died when he was 21, an age when most of us are really just starting our real lives.

Come to think of it, as a pacifist, wouldn't Itachi probably have stopped being a ninja sooner or later. The only reason he was a ninja at all seemed to be to please his family. Given time, if the events of the Uchiha massacre hadn't come to pass, I really think he would have retired early and lived as some kind of monk or something.

[young simba]

Itachi could have been named a successor which is not too farfetched. But the main reason why he wasn't hokage was because it would make to much sense, and none if the issues we have now would have happened. So itachi being hokage equals no manga

[Diablos]

Sure, he was very strong, but he was about 13! Were any of you mature enough to take care of your pets or siblings, let alone a country, at 13? If he had still been in the village when he was 20, then yes, I think he would have done a great job, but part of the tragedy of Itachi is that his life was more or less cut-short because of the decisions made by a group of old people who had already lived their lives.

I think in arguments about Itachi, this is where many people get hung up whether they are aware of it or not. He could have been great, but he died when he was 21, an age when most of us are really just starting our real lives.

Come to think of it, as a pacifist, wouldn't Itachi probably have stopped being a ninja sooner or later. The only reason he was a ninja at all seemed to be to please his family. Given time, if the events of the Uchiha massacre hadn't come to pass, I really think he would have retired early and lived as some kind of monk or something.

Well you could say he was too young, but he wouldnt be the first young hokage you had mizukage that was really young too. Also he might have been 13 but in terms of maturity he was way beyond that..

Hmm I gotta disagree with your last part, he was indeed a pacifist but I highly doubt he would go stop being a ninja and stop protecting his village or his loved ones ( in case of no massacre ) ... in fact those were the reasons he lived and died for... Sasuke and the village..

[Rosebunse]

Well you could say he was too young, but he wouldnt be the first young hokage you had mizukage that was really young too. Also he might have been 13 but in terms of maturity he was way beyond that..

Hmm I gotta disagree with your last part, he was indeed a pacifist but I highly doubt he would go stop being a ninja and stop protecting his village or his loved ones ( in case of no massacre ) ... in fact those were the reasons he lived and died for... Sasuke and the village..

Yeah, Itachi was mature, very mature. And while the decision to kill side against the Uchiha was really one of those impossible choices, I don't think the rest of his plan was that well thought out. Yeah, all plans have kinks and hindsight is always 20/20, but I can't help but think that maybe he took the whole thing too far. He's had too far high of an opinion on Sasuke's level of mental health. While he predicted correctly that Tobi would try to brainwash him, he didn't take into consideration that maybe, after years of torture, abuse, that Sasuke would be in no way able to handle the news that more or less his own history, identity itself, was a lie. Well, he did take that into consideration, but that consideration came in the form of brainwashing. I digress, but the point is that Itachi is so mature for his age that he is controlling because he thinks that he knows best.

[Zehahaha]

Sure, he was very strong, but he was about 13! Were any of you mature enough to take care of your pets or siblings, let alone a country, at 13? If he had still been in the village when he was 20, then yes, I think he would have done a great job, but part of the tragedy of Itachi is that his life was more or less cut-short because of the decisions made by a group of old people who had already lived their lives.

I think in arguments about Itachi, this is where many people get hung up whether they are aware of it or not. He could have been great, but he died when he was 21, an age when most of us are really just starting our real lives.

Come to think of it, as a pacifist, wouldn't Itachi probably have stopped being a ninja sooner or later. The only reason he was a ninja at all seemed to be to please his family. Given time, if the events of the Uchiha massacre hadn't come to pass, I really think he would have retired early and lived as some kind of monk or something.

You guys are dealing with the whole story of age in the wrong way. You realize that Itachi at the age of 4 saw war. You realize that kids are trained to be killing machines doing all kind of dirty jobs, especially someone who works at the ANBU. Say whatever you want to say, but at his age, Itachi was more mature than any other ninja I've ever seen. This is the Naruto world, this is a world where a 13 year old kid is already doing risky jobs, maybe assassinations...

Itachi is Hokage material. Shisui is Hokage material. But let's face it, the elders and Danzo were just too suspicious of the Uchiha, which I'll remained where the one that founded Konoha along with the Senju. Funny how Konoha have 3 Hokages that were from the Senju clan, and none from the Uchiha.

[jdw]

How is that funny? Let's examine the three. When it came to the 1st Hokage, Madara lost outright by selection but he had his shot. It is possible that he could have been the 2nd had he not traitorously abandoned Konoha. I am not sure of the selection of the actual 2nd, not many details, but when it comes to Tsunade, there were no suitable Uchiha to turn to. Sasuke was too young and not well-equipped for Hokage and Itachi was a missing-nin. The village wanted Jiraiya (over Tsunade, a Senju) and there is no evidence that Jiraiya is of Senju lineage. Sandaime wanted Oro (over Tsunade, a Senju) and there is no evidence that Oro is of Senju lineage.

It seems to me that there was no promise that Hokage would be shared amongst the clans. It seems the best person for the job will be asked to do the duty. I have not seen a Nara, Hyuuga, Akamishi, or those guys as Hokage either, but they still manage to not plan treason.

[shafagh]

Itachi's idea was like Danzo's idea ( and their idea was an old and rough idea ) , so he isn't a good choice for becoming Kage ...

[Rosebunse]

Could you elaborate?

In my opinion, both Itachi and Danzo were terrible flawed in the same way; they both assumed that they knew best. Even though Itachi didn't have the power to put his own plan into action, it still seems like to me that he was too controlling.

[DementedKirby]

How is that funny? Let's examine the three. When it came to the 1st Hokage, Madara lost outright by selection but he had his shot. It is possible that he could have been the 2nd had he not traitorously abandoned Konoha. I am not sure of the selection of the actual 2nd, not many details, but when it comes to Tsunade, there were no suitable Uchiha to turn to. Sasuke was too young and not well-equipped for Hokage and Itachi was a missing-nin. The village wanted Jiraiya (over Tsunade, a Senju) and there is no evidence that Jiraiya is of Senju lineage. Sandaime wanted Oro (over Tsunade, a Senju) and there is no evidence that Oro is of Senju lineage.

It seems to me that there was no promise that Hokage would be shared amongst the clans. It seems the best person for the job will be asked to do the duty. I have not seen a Nara, Hyuuga, Akamishi, or those guys as Hokage either, but they still manage to not plan treason.

Yeah, but they didn't get segregated because of Madara summoning the Kyuubi 16+ years ago. Also, there wasn't any ill feelings towards the other clans. Personally, I think the Uchiha overreacted to the situation. It's their own fault for wanting to stage an unnecessary coup d' tat. If they ended up successful in the civil war, they would've ultimately lost anyway to the invasion of other villages (probably the Sand who already had a beef or the Cloud who already had bitterness towards Konoha).

[Rosebunse]

Yeah, but they didn't get segregated because of Madara summoning the Kyuubi 16+ years ago. Also, there wasn't any ill feelings towards the other clans. Personally, I think the Uchiha overreacted to the situation. It's their own fault for wanting to stage an unnecessary coup d' tat. If they ended up successful in the civil war, they would've ultimately lost anyway to the invasion of other villages (probably the Sand who already had a beef or the Cloud who already had bitterness towards Konoha).

Yeah, the whole thing wasn't really that thought out. Can't we blame some of this on the Uchiha leaders? We all know that there was discrimination of some kind. However, given what we know of the Uchiha clan, I have to believe that they did a few things that didn't make things any better.

[zerocooldx]

Itachi's idea was like Danzo's idea ( and their idea was an old and rough idea ) , so he isn't a good choice for becoming Kage ...

The only thing that Itachi and Danzo had in common was the fact that both of them personified what a "real" shinobi should be. Which is someone that hides in the shadows and does the dirty work while seeking no credit or reward. However Itachi and Danzo have vastly different ideals. Danzo stood by and watched Nagato crush Konoha so that he could benefit. While Itachi killed his clan to protect Konoha and in the process turned himself into someone who everyone despised.

[braindamage351]

11 years old
Has an eye power that can only be used if you killed your clansman
His clan was planning to overthrow the village

Yeah, great hokage material lmao

[insid3rkill3r]

11 years old
Has an eye power that can only be used if you killed your clansman
His clan was planning to overthrow the village

Yeah, great hokage material lmao


Kakashi hasnt killed to get his Mangekyo

Shisui hasnt killed to get his Mangekyo otherwise he would have been given a similar treatment as Itachi was given when they accused him of having killed Shisui when he indeed commited suicide

And Itachi may have awaken his mangekyo due to Shisui's death, but there is no telling that he wouldnt have awaken it sooner or later either way as he was the greatest of the clan which is the reason he was chosen by both Konoha and the clan to work as a spy.


He was way passed his age, he truly was an old soul at heart, he was without a doubt Hokage material in terms of power and also as to what he was ready to do for his village.

[Roman]

11 years old
Has an eye power that can only be used if you killed your clansman
His clan was planning to overthrow the village

Yeah, great hokage material lmao

Actually, along with his genius as a shinobi, yeah, he's quite the material for a Hokage. Even though he has accursed Uchiha blood, he destroyed his own for Konoha. Ignoring the "genocide problem from moral point of view", he's a lot more than worthy.

[Quantized]

Sometimes the best answers are the simplest ones. However, if Itachi would've been Hokage, I think that Danzou would've had a fit and found the way to betray Itachi and cause the civil war in the first place.

---------- Post added at 09:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------

Lol, with Itachi as Hokage, Orochimaru would've failed miserably in his invasion of Konoha. Also, when Madara cam around with Akatsuki, they would've lost as well. But I think that Itachi was way too young to be Hokage. I mean, I believe he was younger than 20 years old when he murdered his clan.

This gave me the laugh of the day, hilarious had Oro attempted :tem

Tbh, I think Naruto first part and Naruto second part, aka Shippuuden, are not that tightly connected. What a lot of people back then was certain about, I think still holds today.. Whatever the reason, if it was Kishi himself or someone forcing him, doesn't matter, it seems oddly connected, yet well done considering if it truly was 180 turned around.
Sorry if someone already mentioned this here btw, not sure if there were.

If this is the case, then it gives a good explanation why Itachi was not considered Hokage, if he truly was a villain to begin with.

Naruto was a different kind of manga in the first part, he viped a different feeling, yet it's totally different today.. For whatever reason, I think Kishi changed the concept midway :^_^

[Rosebunse]

I just don't see it. I mean, yes, he was a wonderful soldier. But I think he was too good. And as we've seen from Danzo, that's not always a good thing. We need to look past this and see that Itachi, for all his perfection as a ninja, would probably have not been the best Hokage.

[DementedKirby]

I just don't see it. I mean, yes, he was a wonderful soldier. But I think he was too good. And as we've seen from Danzo, that's not always a good thing. We need to look past this and see that Itachi, for all his perfection as a ninja, would probably have not been the best Hokage.

He put his village before himself and not just his entire clan, but his family as well. He even put a failsafe in Naruto should Sasuke go and attack Konoha. He would've made a great Hokage. If anyone is an example of the Will of Fire, it's Itachi. Selfsacrifice for the sake of the rest. Beyond that, he did it without recognition. So even stained his name and legacy, not just his life. He basically gave it all away for the sake of his village. Now that is worthy of the title of Hokage. All he needs is to seal himself in the belly of the shinigami.

[Rosebunse]

He put his village before himself and not just his entire clan, but his family as well. He even put a failsafe in Naruto should Sasuke go and attack Konoha. He would've made a great Hokage. If anyone is an example of the Will of Fire, it's Itachi. Selfsacrifice for the sake of the rest. Beyond that, he did it without recognition. So even stained his name and legacy, not just his life. He basically gave it all away for the sake of his village. Now that is worthy of the title of Hokage. All he needs is to seal himself in the belly of the shinigami.

Yeah, but it's just that he followed all that to a T. But I don't know...This is one of those things that makes me sad, since maybe he would have made a great Hokage if it wasn't for his father and Danzo.

[Quantized]

He put his village before himself and not just his entire clan, but his family as well. He even put a failsafe in Naruto should Sasuke go and attack Konoha. He would've made a great Hokage. If anyone is an example of the Will of Fire, it's Itachi. Selfsacrifice for the sake of the rest. Beyond that, he did it without recognition. So even stained his name and legacy, not just his life. He basically gave it all away for the sake of his village. Now that is worthy of the title of Hokage. All he needs is to seal himself in the belly of the shinigami.

Given Itachi's now true known personality he might even have been better than the 1st and 2nd Hokage, so I really agree with you.
Remember, I said "might" for anyone against this, got no proof or anything :p

I guess one reason to not want an Uchiha as Hokage would be the illusions they could cast on unknowing people, and control Konoha with an iron fist. The idea probably scared a lot of people, included the house of Senju, considering it was them who started the whole trouble and caused Madara to go mental in the first place. Yet the other Uchiha's did not agree with Madara until it was too late, Madara had already left the Village and had his battle with the 1st Hokage.

Yet, Itachi would've been perfect, as others said, he put everyone in the village at consideration, and makes a fair judgement against his feelings. He's really "objective" for the greater good of Konoha.
If anyone could have calmed the situation, it'd been Itachi.. Also Itachi would not have been mistrusted by the other Uchihas had Danzou and the others not given him the mission to kill the entire clan, as far as I can tell, it started when he killed his best friend, to achieve this mission.

Had the Senju and Sandaime backed up Itachi, then it'd probably have affected the rest of the village to accept him as well and the other Uchiha would have got what they wanted too, this was exactly why they wanted to start a civil war, to be accepted.

It really bugs me too, why didn't Sandaime see this.. what reason did he have for this not to be a good idea..?

[DementedKirby]

Itachi didn't kill Shisui. He had actually killed himself for the sake of the village. Shisui probably knew of the impending massacre. So he probably gave an eye to Danzou (his superior who he trusted) and another to Itachi (whom he considered a little brother) before committing suicide.

As for why Hiruzen didn't choose Itachi:
remember, the Hokage doesn't simply choose an immediate successor. It has to be approved by the daimyou and then voten upon by the jounin. However, with the reputation he had already accumulated plus the fact that the Fourth was also pretty young might've helped him. Also, the daimyou seems to be very nonchalant and easygoing. Had he been convinced he would've probably given the OK. Hiruzen's support might've gained the support of the jounin, as well. To be chosen by the Third should be a great honor. The Third chose the Fourth, who not only gave his life but his soul as well for the village.

However, being Hokage means practically staying everlastingly in the village. No relentless traveling means no acquisition of the Sword of Totsuka nor the Yata Mirror. Relieving Itachi of two of his greatest assets.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

Whether Shisui gave his eye to Danzou or Danzou took it forcibly from him is still a gray area, I think. The translations say that "...Danzou had already taken one eye."

To say that Itachi acquired the sword of Totsuka and the Yata Mirror on some of his travels is an assumption. It may be true, but his Susanoo having them from the very start may also be true.

[DementedKirby]

Whether Shisui gave his eye to Danzou or Danzou took it forcibly from him is still a gray area, I think. The translations say that "...Danzou had already taken one eye."

To say that Itachi acquired the sword of Totsuka and the Yata Mirror on some of his travels is an assumption. It may be true, but his Susanoo having them from the very start may also be true.

Well, it can still be translation. You take things you are given just as you can take things by force. It is ambiguous, though. I don't know Japanese so I can't say if the correct verb was accepted or taken.

As for Itachi having his Susano'o from the very start, Orochimaru spend his entire life looking for the Sword of Totsuka - long before Itachi was born. How is that legendary sword going to exist in such a rare and complicated jutsu of someone who was born after the sword was even being sought after? It just makes no sense. Sorry. Just as you can keep things with summons or within your body (apparently, a ninja's stomach in Naruto doubles as a Mary Poppins style purse as well), Itachi kept those items with his Susano'o. If his enemy was strong enough for him to actually have to take out Susano'o, he might as well equip the greatest battle items or all time with such and epic jutsu ;).

[matsyes]

I think the whole thing comes down to the political situation more than Itachi, it seems Shisui also would have made a great hokage candidate. But clearly there was a strong enough bias against the Uchihas that they considered a coup. I think the best way to illustrate the point is the example of when one minority despite being very capable is stigmatized and discriminated against, this has happened all over history. Can you imagine an accomplished, smart muslim becoming President in the US. The situation is unimaginable but its exactly the same scenario with the Uchihas.

[Quantized]

Itachi didn't kill Shisui. He had actually killed himself for the sake of the village. Shisui probably knew of the impending massacre. So he probably gave an eye to Danzou (his superior who he trusted) and another to Itachi (whom he considered a little brother) before committing suicide.

As for why Hiruzen didn't choose Itachi:
remember, the Hokage doesn't simply choose an immediate successor. It has to be approved by the daimyou and then voten upon by the jounin. However, with the reputation he had already accumulated plus the fact that the Fourth was also pretty young might've helped him. Also, the daimyou seems to be very nonchalant and easygoing. Had he been convinced he would've probably given the OK. Hiruzen's support might've gained the support of the jounin, as well. To be chosen by the Third should be a great honor. The Third chose the Fourth, who not only gave his life but his soul as well for the village.

However, being Hokage means practically staying everlastingly in the village. No relentless traveling means no acquisition of the Sword of Totsuka nor the Yata Mirror. Relieving Itachi of two of his greatest assets.

Ah, so that was him, I never were good with the few less known Uchiha names xD
Thanks for clearing that up!

and great point, Sandaime could probably have convinced him. When Kakashi was nearly nominated, the daimyou seemed really fond of the Senju and their followers. So likely Itachi could have been accepted if he was supported.

Thinking about it, just how strong Itachi could have gotten, if Shisui really did sacrifice himself for Konoha, that means Itachi easily could have reached the top level he has now without killing anyone from his clan. Then at this age..?

It's really a pity, I used to see Itachi as any other ninja, but after he has shown just how knowledgeable he is about not only ninja arts, I really do love to have seen him stay in Konoha... DAMN YOU DANZOU!!

[M3J]

Where was it said Shisui killed himself? He could have been killed by Itachi for all we know.

Anyway, Itachi before the whole Massacre was too young to be a kage. Gaara became a kage because I don't think there was anyone else powerful enough and even then, there was some while before he became a kage. Minato, the youngest hokage at the time, was at least 21, and it was due to HIraishin.

And looking at it now, Itachi now would have been a better hokage because of the recent chapter where he told Naruto to trust his comrades. He may not have done that when he was younger, which would have harmed him as a hokage. Itachi definitely had the intelligence, foresight, insight, power, and talent to be the hokage, but did he have the ability to trust others?

[Quantized]

Where was it said Shisui killed himself? He could have been killed by Itachi for all we know.

Anyway, Itachi before the whole Massacre was too young to be a kage. Gaara became a kage because I don't think there was anyone else powerful enough and even then, there was some while before he became a kage. Minato, the youngest hokage at the time, was at least 21, and it was due to HIraishin.

And looking at it now, Itachi now would have been a better hokage because of the recent chapter where he told Naruto to trust his comrades. He may not have done that when he was younger, which would have harmed him as a hokage. Itachi definitely had the intelligence, foresight, insight, power, and talent to be the hokage, but did he have the ability to trust others?

In a sense Shisui killed himself, they both (Shisui and Itachi) agreed on it, however indirectly Itachi seem to imply that he helped Shisui to die peacefully (silently). So it depends on what values you play on, some would still call Itachi a murder, but others would call it suicide since they both planned it together (Shisui convinced Itachi). I doubt Itachi would have killed him without Shisui's consent, seemingly, he was the one affecting Itachi into the person he is today by the way Itachi speaks of him, "That is a true shinobi, Shisui taught me that".

Here is the page, http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/12
Go one or two pages back if you want all the details on Shisui.

[DementedKirby]

In a sense Shisui killed himself, they both (Shisui and Itachi) agreed on it, however indirectly Itachi seem to imply that he helped Shisui to die peacefully (silently). So it depends on what values you play on, some would still call Itachi a murder, but others would call it suicide since they both planned it together (Shisui convinced Itachi). I doubt Itachi would have killed him without Shisui's consent, seemingly, he was the one affecting Itachi into the person he is today by the way Itachi speaks of him, "That is a true shinobi, Shisui taught me that".

Here is the page, http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65686308/12
Go one or two pages back if you want all the details on Shisui.

Exactly. Itachi practically said that Itachi killed himself. If we look back at his fight with Sasuke, he didn't simply let Sasuke kill him. Even after Ororchimaru was extracted he blocked all of Sasuke's attacks. If his sole purpose of pushing Sasuke was to get rid of Ororchimaru why not allow his ass to get roasted by Sasuke's explosive tags? He died falling two inches short of Sasuke's face. Did Sasuke actually kill Itachi to win? No. When he felt the mourning sensation and intense anguish over Itachi's death - after realizing his brother's true intentions, his Mangekyou awakened. Did Kakashi kill Obito? No. Did he awaken the Mangekyou? Yes. Itachi did not kill Shisui. However, Shisui's death must've impacted him the way his own impacted Sasuke. His father and everyone else must've come to the conclusion that Itachi had killed Shisui.

Itachi would've been the most broken of all Hokage. He would've made the same decision Hiruzen made when Kumo wanted Hizashi's corpse. However, Itachi's so badass that I doubt Kumo would've pulled that stunt with Itachi as Hokage. Did they do that with Minato as Hokage? Hell no. Minato had already gave a figurative bitch slap o' respect to A when they crossed paths. Hell, they were lucky to not die by Minato's hands. They were after the Kyuubi (which was in Kushina), afterall. They would've been viciously owned by the Yellow Flash.

[mattiaildivino]

according to the last chapter,Itachi has surely got the prerequisite to become hokage. he passed his life in the shadow,as shisui taught him,but if he had to be hokage he would be perfect. "he is too good,damn it!"

[Gats]

The thing which I find weird now is that Sandaime, even Danzou and the Elders didn't seem to have considered Itachi being Hokage before the Uchiha took action (so before the Uchiha massacre), it would solve everything, an Uchiha at the head of Konoha, a nice move against a rebellion. They knew that Itachi is a true Konoha supporter (I mean not influenced at all by his own clan), he even have the "right" spirit, and Minato was already dead, they needed a new leader since Hiruzen was so old.

edit : maybe because he was not famous enough (or at all), common people and ninja would not understand why he should be Hokage, but still, but even despite of that, this reason should not stand against a certain rebellion.

[kkck]

^Because itachi at the time was a 13 year old punk for the most part AND the leaf was overflowing with kage candidates at the time. Both tsunade and jiraiya were very much alive at the time and kakashi was in his 20s already meaning he was in an infinitely better position than itachi. Surely the sand has a young kage but at least he is almost done with puberty unlike itachi who would have still been capable of counting his pubes with 1 hand at the time. Seriously, it makes no sense whatsoever to make itachi hokage if there are people like jiraiya, tsunade and even kakashi around.

Also, on principle they shouldn't have made an uchiha at the time. What kinda message are they giving? That any clan can take control of the village if they plan a coup? That's plain dumb and not how a village should be managed. The uchiha were given a rough time but it is not like they did not did have their part in the whole thing. Madara tried to destroy the village twice, uchiha members followed madara after the first time he tried... The uchiha were ultimately not innocent. Madara claims that uchiha ended up as senju's dogs but does that even make sense? Even madara admitted the vast majority of the clans wanted hashirama as the hokage. Were those clans senju's dogs? Of course not, they were their comrades. Even with madara's story there are many wholes regarding the senju being the authoritarian dictators they were made out to be. How could they possibly be nearly as bad as they were made out to be by madara if they were selected by the rest of the clans which made the village? If anything, the uchiha were the only ones opposing the senju being the leaders of the village. If anything, the uchiha were pissed off because they were not in charge.

[Knatz]

The thing which I find weird now is that Sandaime, even Danzou and the Elders didn't seem to have considered Itachi being Hokage before the Uchiha took action (so before the Uchiha massacre), it would solve everything, an Uchiha at the head of Konoha, a nice move against a rebellion. They knew that Itachi is a true Konoha supporter (I mean not influenced at all by his own clan), he even have the "right" spirit, and Minato was already dead, they needed a new leader since Hiruzen was so old.

edit : maybe because he was not famous enough (or at all), common people and ninja would not understand why he should be Hokage, but still, but even despite of that, this reason should not stand against a certain rebellion.

He was too young and did not have the same reputation as an s-class ninja before he became a clan killer also I got the impression that there was a real bias against the uchiha so getting the support of the jounin council to agree would be tricky.There is a trend with most of the kages of nepotism(only people related to trained by or otherwise linked to a kage have become kage)

[kkck]

Just to add to the above, itachi had to avoid the last kunai with explosive tags in order to put his trap for madara in sasuke's eyes. He did that when he touched sasuke's forehead in his last breath.

[donyusufahmed]

^Because itachi at the time was a 13 year old punk for the most part AND the leaf was overflowing with kage candidates at the time. Both tsunade and jiraiya were very much alive at the time and kakashi was in his 20s already meaning he was in an infinitely better position than itachi. Surely the sand has a young kage but at least he is almost done with puberty unlike itachi who would have still been capable of counting his pubes with 1 hand at the time. Seriously, it makes no sense whatsoever to make itachi hokage if there are people like jiraiya, tsunade and even kakashi around.

Also, on principle they shouldn't have made an uchiha at the time. What kinda message are they giving? That any clan can take control of the village if they plan a coup? That's plain dumb and not how a village should be managed. The uchiha were given a rough time but it is not like they did not did have their part in the whole thing. Madara tried to destroy the village twice, uchiha members followed madara after the first time he tried... The uchiha were ultimately not innocent. Madara claims that uchiha ended up as senju's dogs but does that even make sense? Even madara admitted the vast majority of the clans wanted hashirama as the hokage. Were those clans senju's dogs? Of course not, they were their comrades. Even with madara's story there are many wholes regarding the senju being the authoritarian dictators they were made out to be. How could they possibly be nearly as bad as they were made out to be by madara if they were selected by the rest of the clans which made the village? If anything, the uchiha were the only ones opposing the senju being the leaders of the village. If anything, the uchiha were pissed off because they were not in charge.

What does age have anything to do with hokage? First of all, let me ask you how is hokage chosen? Everyone that has been hokage has had some sort of relation with the senju clan....I mean everyone. And you call that fear? I remember watching in the anime that Minato nominated himself. Jiraya and Tsunade were no where to be found. That does not send any kind of message, does the person have the requirement to be hokage, its a simple yes or no. Itachi would have been a great kage. If the higher ups of Konoha didn't want to give him the title of hokage, they could have given him a position of there to help cool down most of the uchihas and am pretty sure the rebellion would have lost its momentum. Does as you blame the uchiha, you should also blame the konoha higher ups for giving such an order.

[kkck]

Minato nominating himself in an anime is irrelevant. We also do know how the hokage are chosen, we have seen it first hand. There is a discussion of the higher ups in the village and someone is nominated (say, kakashi and danzo). Then a jonnin vote was mentioned, basically every elite ninja gets together and approve or disapprove of the ninja in question. With the system there is a limit as to who are candidates thanks to the board of higher ups however if it was such a terribly overwhelming thing to have a senju as a kage then they probably would have been able to avoid it (unless we talk about the voting being ridged but we have no evidence to suggest such a thing). Not to mention that kakashi, minato and sarutobi are at least not immediate senju clan members.

Jiraiya and tsunade not being anywhere to be found is irrelevant. As we saw in the tsunade arc, it is not outright impossible to find them (it is a matter of checking every pub, casino and whorehouse around).

Even if for some reason you think itachi met the requirements to be the hokage (I don't) it does not change that he was by far not the only one. Given that tsunade and jiraiya, who were extremely powerful, respected, experienced and notable war heroes, it would make no sense to give the position to itachi who was young, inexperienced, not a war hero, and largely unknown until he murdered his parents. Giving itachi, or any other uchiha, the title of kage would not have been the result of an uchiha being the most qualified but rather the result of the uchiha extorting the village for power. The uchiha threatening with a coup is by no means a reason to give then the title of kage, it is a reason to strike first, strike hard and avoid a civil and world war. It'd be like the republicans threatening to nuke the whitehouse and to avoid it the democrats hand every seat in congress, senate and the presidency to them. Its plain dumb and not how a country should be ran.

[Gats]

^Because itachi at the time was a 13 year old punk for the most part AND the leaf was overflowing with kage candidates at the time. Both tsunade and jiraiya were very much alive at the time and kakashi was in his 20s already meaning he was in an infinitely better position than itachi. Surely the sand has a young kage but at least he is almost done with puberty unlike itachi who would have still been capable of counting his pubes with 1 hand at the time. Seriously, it makes no sense whatsoever to make itachi hokage if there are people like jiraiya, tsunade and even kakashi around.

Also, on principle they shouldn't have made an uchiha at the time. What kinda message are they giving? That any clan can take control of the village if they plan a coup? That's plain dumb and not how a village should be managed. The uchiha were given a rough time but it is not like they did not did have their part in the whole thing. Madara tried to destroy the village twice, uchiha members followed madara after the first time he tried... The uchiha were ultimately not innocent. Madara claims that uchiha ended up as senju's dogs but does that even make sense? Even madara admitted the vast majority of the clans wanted hashirama as the hokage. Were those clans senju's dogs? Of course not, they were their comrades. Even with madara's story there are many wholes regarding the senju being the authoritarian dictators they were made out to be. How could they possibly be nearly as bad as they were made out to be by madara if they were selected by the rest of the clans which made the village? If anything, the uchiha were the only ones opposing the senju being the leaders of the village. If anything, the uchiha were pissed off because they were not in charge.

Actually I totally forgot he was 13...he just didn't look like 13 when you read the manga, it's like he didn't get old at all, this guy is definitively not human. Just forget what I said. ><

But the message they would send wouldn't be as you say, since no one but the elders knew about the Uchiha's rebellion. Besides they just didn't let the Uchiha having any advantage since Itachi was totally out of control from them, if it was someone else in the clan I wouldn't say this. And I just don't agree with the prime motivation of the Uchiha's clan, taking power is just the result of their discrimination. They didn't want the power for the sake of power to begin with. Only Madara wanted it in Konoha.

[kkck]

To be honest I have doubts about it being just the result of the discrimination.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html

For me this part is key. In the start, the uchiha were pretty much just another clan wanting a form of peace. It wasn't about uchiha vs senju. It was just a bunch of clans working together. Then senju were established as an important force in the village. The part were senju established itself as a major political force was by no means an accident however it was also not an attemp of the senju to impose itself over the uchiha. Madara made it clear, everyone chose hashira, everyone chose senju (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/8.html). It was the senju who started the whole village thing (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/4.html), it is their leadership which changed the ninja world. The uchiha were not chosen by everyone, hence you did not see an uchiha hokage but a senju. Even then, the uchiha rebelled (as by madara's admission). How could they not have the mistrust of the village in this scenario? In the begining they were not discriminated against, if that actually happened it was only because of the mistrust brought by both madara and those who followed in his footsteps.

I don't think it really matters if the whole village knew about the coup, even then the elders should outright not give the chance to an uchiha on principle. The village started with the ninja approving of someone, not by a clan imposing itself upon one another (which is what the uchiha were threatening to do). More so, there is actually the issue of the jonnin vote. If the sannin were around the is a very real chance they would not have voted for an uchiha, they could have actually not approved of 13 year old itachi or any other uchiha for that matter. In that sense, just nominating an uchiha for power did not quite solve the issue as the uchiha were very willing to take over the village without the consent of anyone before. Ultimately even merely nominating a potential uchiha kage to stop the coup is outright ridiculous.

Another issue is that actually making itachi the hokage would not have solved a few issues that some people seem to believe it would. Itachi for starters had a preference of the village over the clan. In this particular regard having itachi in power would not have put the uchiha in a position of power. In this regard the uchiha might as well have eventually just gone on with the coup.

Even then, I am rather skeptical of this discrimination thingy. How exactly were they discriminated against? Were their movements limited? Were they not a powerful and beloved clan in the village? Didn't they have the same benefits as any other clan? Madara told us the uchiha were given control of the police to keep them away from power and they were put in a corner of the village but I see two issues with this. How exactly were they stopped from advancing politically by being in charge of the police? Konoha does not trust them at all and think there is a real chance of them wanting to destroy the village and they hand over security of the entire village to them? Not the most sensible thing to do IMO. If the uchiha were so untrustworthy, would they have maintained control of the security in konoha for over 6 decades? That makes no sense AT ALL. Perhaps they were sent to the particular location they were at because it would have been simpler to spy on them but even under that scenario they were not actually treated any differently from any other clan. Ultimately, madara's story regarding the discrimination of the uchiha is full of holes and nonsensical stuff, perhaps it was his actual opinion or just him tampering with details to make the uchiha more simpathetic than they actually were (as he did with the detail that the kyubi was a natural disaster).

Now, I don't doubt the uchiha went through some rough stuff but that ultimately does not actually justify trying to take over the village.

[donyusufahmed]

Minato nominating himself in an anime is irrelevant. We also do know how the hokage are chosen, we have seen it first hand. There is a discussion of the higher ups in the village and someone is nominated (say, kakashi and danzo). Then a jonnin vote was mentioned, basically every elite ninja gets together and approve or disapprove of the ninja in question. With the system there is a limit as to who are candidates thanks to the board of higher ups however if it was such a terribly overwhelming thing to have a senju as a kage then they probably would have been able to avoid it (unless we talk about the voting being ridged but we have no evidence to suggest such a thing). Not to mention that kakashi, minato and sarutobi are at least not immediate senju clan members.

Jiraiya and tsunade not being anywhere to be found is irrelevant. As we saw in the tsunade arc, it is not outright impossible to find them (it is a matter of checking every pub, casino and whorehouse around).

Even if for some reason you think itachi met the requirements to be the hokage (I don't) it does not change that he was by far not the only one. Given that tsunade and jiraiya, who were extremely powerful, respected, experienced and notable war heroes, it would make no sense to give the position to itachi who was young, inexperienced, not a war hero, and largely unknown until he murdered his parents. Giving itachi, or any other uchiha, the title of kage would not have been the result of an uchiha being the most qualified but rather the result of the uchiha extorting the village for power. The uchiha threatening with a coup is by no means a reason to give then the title of kage, it is a reason to strike first, strike hard and avoid a civil and world war. It'd be like the republicans threatening to nuke the whitehouse and to avoid it the democrats hand every seat in congress, senate and the presidency to them. Its plain dumb and not how a country should be ran.

Who didn't know of Uchiha Itachi before he wiped out his clan? What do you mean by experience? Can you say Gaara is a better candidate that Itachi? But Gaara is still a kage. Jiraya said it himself that he would not make a good kage, leaving Tsunade. He became ANBU captain by 13 and participated in the third great war. Must he be a war hero before he should be considered for hokage? No. Was Itachi powerful at a young age, yes. In the history of Konoha, are you telling no other clan has produced a shinobi capable of becoming hokage? How would they extort power from Konoha? Itachi from the Uchiha was given an order by Konoha leaders to kill his own clan. Let me repeat that kill his own clan, and what did he do? He did. He was loyal to the village even though they gave him such an order. He could have gone and taken away the women ( and we don't know if sasuke was the only child at that time), but he killed them all. How loyal do you want him to be? What other qualifications do you want him to have? Strike first and hard? Konoha did not handle the situation properly, pure and simple. Strike hard and fast just prove that you and they could have not being more wrong.

[kkck]

Who did know of itachi? He was a 13 year old kid, I doubt his name would be worth much before the massacre of his clan. By experience I mean the generic thing we generally refer to as experience which is generally acquired by living a relatively long time. Itachi had none of that and even if he did he certainly would not have had as much as tsunade, jiraiya or kakashim the other potential kage candidates. Do we know of other clans which produced ninja capable of being hokage? And no, I didn't say other clans did not produce ninja of that caliber. They didn't actually extort power from konoga but giving an uchiha the kage position solely to stop the coup would have been just about the same thing. Seriously,what is the message here? Give us a butload of power or we rebel? Also, none of the supposed qualifications for him to be kage would apply if they had actually made him kage. In that regard, even if murdering his family on orders from the village would have proven his loyalty to the village, it is not something they could have known without the guy actually pulling that off. Kind of an impasse right? And how should have konoha reacted to the situation?

a.- Since uchiha was planning a coup then just hand over the power to them willingly? Most moronic thing I have ever heard off, the very idea makes no sense whatsoever.
b.- Let them attempt the coup and fight them back on the spot? Deaths from both sides and a potential world war resulting from the civil war? Probably even dumber than just handing over the power as even more people from all over the world might have died.
c.- Take them out before they do anything. It is clean, least possible amount of casualties (limited to only the potential rebels + itachi). I guess avoiding a civil war and a world war is just gravy at this point.

One way or another, within the context of the manga, attacking the uchiha clan was the only alternative they had left. They could not go back in time to make things right, the fact of the matter was that the uchiha coup was invariably coming and the risks were VERY real. Things came to either the uchiha or world peace basically. World peace tops the uchiha any day of the week. I don't see how things could have been avoided once things came to what they did in the manga. How could they stop the uchiha without simply handing over the village to them? I don't think they could have, I would think they actually tried every possible alternative. its not like ignoring the problem would have made it go away.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

By the way, I never meant that the elders should make Itachi Hokage just to prevent the massacre. I expressed the opinion that since Itachi was skilled enough (an ANBU captain at 13 - and also stronger than Kakashi, as he proved in his fight with him until he used the Mangekyo), loyal enough and wise enough someone should have considered the possibility of making him Hokage; stopping the Uchiha uprising in the process. This is two birds with one stone, appoint someone worthy at the position and stop the coup d'etat, not appoint someone you wouldn't otherwise, for the sole purpose of stopping the Uchiha! Maybe he wasn't good enough, but there certainly weren't any better candidates: Kakashi was weaker, Jiraiya didn't want to, Tsunade was away and didn't want to as well.

[donyusufahmed]

Who did know of itachi? He was a 13 year old kid, I doubt his name would be worth much before the massacre of his clan. By experience I mean the generic thing we generally refer to as experience which is generally acquired by living a relatively long time. Itachi had none of that and even if he did he certainly would not have had as much as tsunade, jiraiya or kakashim the other potential kage candidates. Do we know of other clans which produced ninja capable of being hokage? And no, I didn't say other clans did not produce ninja of that caliber. They didn't actually extort power from konoga but giving an uchiha the kage position solely to stop the coup would have been just about the same thing. Seriously,what is the message here? Give us a butload of power or we rebel? Also, none of the supposed qualifications for him to be kage would apply if they had actually made him kage. In that regard, even if murdering his family on orders from the village would have proven his loyalty to the village, it is not something they could have known without the guy actually pulling that off. Kind of an impasse right? And how should have konoha reacted to the situation?

a.- Since uchiha was planning a coup then just hand over the power to them willingly? Most moronic thing I have ever heard off, the very idea makes no sense whatsoever.
b.- Let them attempt the coup and fight them back on the spot? Deaths from both sides and a potential world war resulting from the civil war? Probably even dumber than just handing over the power as even more people from all over the world might have died.
c.- Take them out before they do anything. It is clean, least possible amount of casualties (limited to only the potential rebels + itachi). I guess avoiding a civil war and a world war is just gravy at this point.

One way or another, within the context of the manga, attacking the uchiha clan was the only alternative they had left. They could not go back in time to make things right, the fact of the matter was that the uchiha coup was invariably coming and the risks were VERY real. Things came to either the uchiha or world peace basically. World peace tops the uchiha any day of the week. I don't see how things could have been avoided once things came to what they did in the manga. How could they stop the uchiha without simply handing over the village to them? I don't think they could have, I would think they actually tried every possible alternative. its not like ignoring the problem would have made it go away.

Tsundade, Jiraya or Kakashi? You are telling Kakashi has more expereince than Itachi?!
Orochimaru has just as much expereince as Jiraya, and even with his jutsu he still couldn't beat Itachi. You can't win against an opponent like that without being powerful and having tons of expereince. Noone is asking Hiruzen to resign to stop a coup, Is Itachi Hokage material? Yes
Would he have become a great kage? Yes.
What are you saying? They told him to kill his clan and he did. Are you telling out of all the possible solutions in the world, you kill a bunch of people you mistreated to keep peace. Does that sound like peace to you? When another clan rises of from being mistreated, you kill them? Another clan, you kill them? Uchiha were not rising up because they wanted power, they rose up because of the way there were being treated. You need to wake up.

[kkck]

Kakashi. So... who would have more experience and fame, 13 year old recently promoted itachi or 20 year old, the man who copied 1000 ninjutsu, kakashi? Of course kakashi would be the more experienced ninja. Heck, kakashi actually fought the very war which according to madara traumatized itachi.

Your answer makes no sense or at least it is impractical. Given the situation konoha was in at the time, what alternatives did they have other than what they did or willingly give up leadership of the village? And they did want power, why else take the particular measure they took? If they felt they were treated unfairly go on a hunger strike or something but instead they took the course of action which would invariably result in a civil war. And what else would you do against a clan willing to take arms against konoha? you make it sound as if the uchiha would not have killed as much as they needed to to reach power (unless by coup we understand different things). In a situation where the only alternatives is you or them, them is always the better option.

[donyusufahmed]

Dude, you have made up your mind and you are not open to other people reason, its that simple. Kakashi copied 1000 jutsu, your point is? Again all he did was copy 1000 jutsu. Tell me, how many have we seen him used? Itachi who was 13 vs Kakashi who copied 1000 jutsu, who do you think would win? Itachi. Kakashi has always acknowledged that he was way stronger than him. Your point is that konoha is right and giving Itachi would make it seem that Konoha is yielding to their request. Really?! Come dude, really? We all know that Itachi ALWAYS PUT THE VILLAGE INTEREST FIRST, so him becoming hokage, using his new position to help stop or at least calm down most of the people willing to take part in the coup is bad? Dude come on, you got to do better than this.

[kkck]

And what else would giving the hokage position to itachi due to the coup be? Of course it would be yielding to the uchiha, it couldn't possibly be more blatant. Also, even if we know itachi was stronger (I wouldn't be so sure that 13 year old itachi was stronger than 20 year old kakashi though) it does not mean people in the village and in the world would know about that. We know about itachi because the manga has given us the opportunity to see him in action but I kinda doubt the upper ups in the village would keep naruto volumes in their drawers which they check to select their kages. In that regard we have kakashi who has been a jonnin since he was 13 and an anbu for god knows for how long (he was yamato's sempai) against itachi who barely had barely made it to anbu. Unless the elders and sarutobi read the same manga as us there is no reason for itachi to be considered. More so, if the elders wanted to yield to the threat rather than facing it they might as well make fugaku the hokage rather than his 13 year old son. At least that would guarantee the end of the coup for the most part.

And that still would not change that there is something inherent wrong with making an uchiha the hokage in spite of there being more perfectly good and perhaps better candidates around solely to stop the rebellion. I can't even begin to comprehend how that could be right, it makes no sense to me. One way or another, most if not all clans had approved of hashirama, tobirama, sarutobi, minato and tsunade. That is fact, even by madara's story we know it is solely the uchiha who had trouble with the leadership even before there was any discrimination and distrust. Regardless of who was right or wrong, the uchiha agreed to be part of the village society with all its perks and cons and yet they were the ones that then proceeded to be pissed off because senju leaded and not them (in spite of the fact that everyone chose senju and not them).

Would itachi have made a good kage in an universe where the uchiha did not plan a civil war with severe world implications? Of course, he has some wisdom (it still would not have made sense to give him the position as such a young man when jiraiya, kakashi and tsunade were around though) and evidently people would have followed him. Does it make sense in the least to give an uchiha the position solely due to the coup? Of course not, that would even be a reason to not consider someone.

[donyusufahmed]

Are you reading the same manga i am? Are you sure the title is Naruto? Itachi, a genius even when compared by the Uchiha standards barely made it into the ANBU? Are you sure we are reading the same manga. Please, read this
naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Itachi_Uchiha
I believe you need this. When you are done, let me know.

My point was Itachi would have been a great kage, and he could have used that position to stop the coup. He father said he was THE MAIN PIPE LINE between the Uchiha Clan and the Village. I am pretty sure you don't understand how significant that is. You are the one emphasizing the point that the only reason to become Kage is to stop the coup thereby yielding to the Uchiha demands, not me you. So they approved of them, so what? Are you telling me all that village would not approve of Itachi if he were nominated to be hokage? The Uchiha did not have a problem with leadership, they acknowledged hashirama as the first hokage not madara. You say they are power hungry, they approved of hashirama who is not of the Uchiha clan to become the first Kage and that is why Madara decided to leave the village and seek revenge. Then second hokage...why am i giving a history lesson here, Itachi indirectly confirmed everything Madara said when he recently met Naruto. Destroying the clan was not the right option, that is why it is Danzo and the two other council member that decided to wipe out the clan not the third hokage. Itachi would have become a great kage for the village and he could have used that position to stop the rebellion not the other way around. They may not like his opinion but they WILL acknowledge that he is the hokage and respect his decision.
If you think the decision was right, would Jiraya have killed them? Will Tsunade have killed them? Will Naruto have killed them?

[juUnior]

My point was Itachi would have been a great kage, and he could have used that position to stop the coup. He father said he was THE MAIN PIPE LINE between the Uchiha Clan and the Village. I am pretty sure you don't understand how significant that is.
Wasn't it said by his father because Itachi was a double agent/spy, one working for the Uchiha and their coup and the other working for the Konoha upper-ups? I think his father referring at that time those words made simply a reference to what role Itachi plays in their 'project', not literally methinks.

[kkck]

^yeah, that was meant to have a double meaning regarding his spying duties, sasuke remembered that when he spoke to madara. Also, I didn't mean "barely" in regards to skill or talent but rather timewise, as in something recent.

[nonikhanan]

I am saying that instead of him killing his whole clan, he had become the 5th hokage taking over from the sandaime. Wouldn't a more logical solution to solving the Uchiha problem be making one of them hokage.

Itachi was the perfect Hokage Material. Wasn't partial to his clan, loved the Leaf, was really strong. Sandaime could have stood down since he was getting too old. And if Orochimaru had tried a Konoha Invasion, Itachi could have EASILY taken him out. Sandaime would still be there to guide Itachi as he was probably 16 (still older than Gaara).

The Uchiha would have been more accepted in Konoha with an Uchiha Hokage. There would be less resentment from them towards Konoha. With Itachi as Hokage, he would have been the PERFECT bridge between Konoha and Uchiha. He would have the authority to change things that would make the clan happier and less likely to attack konoha.

What do you guys think?

[hyper_megaman]

I am saying that instead of him killing his whole clan, he had become the 5th hokage taking over from the sandaime. Wouldn't a more logical solution to solving the Uchiha problem be making one of them hokage.

Itachi was the perfect Hokage Material. Wasn't partial to his clan, loved the Leaf, was really strong. Sandaime could have stood down since he was getting too old. And if Orochimaru had tried a Konoha Invasion, Itachi could have EASILY taken him out. Sandaime would still be there to guide Itachi as he was probably 16 (still older than Gaara).

The Uchiha would have been more accepted in Konoha with an Uchiha Hokage. There would be less resentment from them towards Konoha. With Itachi as Hokage, he would have been the PERFECT bridge between Konoha and Uchiha. He would have the authority to change things that would make the clan happier and less likely to attack konoha.

What do you guys think?

i don't think that seemed very prudent to the village heads when they discovered the planned coup d'etat

asking itachi to kill his clansmen could have just been a first attempt, failure of which could have just as easily been covered by the village's jonin

[Uchiha_Blood]

I do not agree, not completely at least.
Itachi is not kage material, the only things he has on Kage level are his skills as a ninja, when it comes to everything else he is simply not suited to do this.
Why?

Let's not forget that it is Itachi's fault basically if Sasuke went the way he went, it was his decision to do what he did and he could've placed the entire ninja world in danger if Sasuke will not be redeemed and if Naruto will fail, since Sasuke will be Tobi's pawn or a complete murdering psycho.
True, Sandaime did almost the same mistake with Oro, but Sandaime did not gave Oro some uber powerful weapons, nor did he gave Oro his ideology of being a mad scientist.
And Sandaime, in decision making, was, like, the worst Kage in history.

Itachi is a splendid ninja when following orders, he saved the village by killing his clan and being hated by the world, but when it comes to decision making, he is an elite at screwing up regretfully.
Also don't forget, at the time when the Uchiha massacre happened he was thirteen. They were skeptic of Kakashi being Kage Material despite having both reputation and power, and Kakashi is in his late twenties. I doubt a 13 year old boy would've been chosen, and not only that, but the Leaf would've faced many dangers since Itachi was basically a nameless at the time, another Uchiha like the rest.

As for solving the Uchiha problem, this would've been a terrible move since they would've pressured Itachi to chose an Uchiha Rokudaime, and since Itachi wouldn't capitulate to their request, their hate would've extended to him too, thus only postponing the inevitable.
So no, Itachi as the Godaime would've been a disaster for Konoha

[mattiaildivino]

if he had become hokage,his clan(starting from his family) would have stopped the rebellion. btw,he killed his clan when he was 14,and hiruzen was strogner than him,though. it would have been very useful to save the Leaf,although he couldn't have controlled akatsuki,but he could have looked for oro and killed him.sasuke would ahve been trained by itachiand he,naruto,kakashi,jiraiya,tsunade, hiruzen and itachi might have stopped pain,imo.

[hyper_megaman]

if he had become hokage,his clan(starting from his family) would have stopped the rebellion. btw,he killed his clan when he was 14,and hiruzen was strogner than him,though. it would have been very useful to save the Leaf,although he couldn't have controlled akatsuki,but he could have looked for oro and killed him.sasuke would ahve been trained by itachiand he,naruto,kakashi,jiraiya,tsunade, hiruzen and itachi might have stopped pain,imo.

if u know a clan was planning to take over the village for its own purposes, giving one of them immediate control would be stupidly handing the village to them

separate entity doctrine > village is supposed to be separate from uchiha clan's own personal interests

[M3J]

I am saying that instead of him killing his whole clan, he had become the 5th hokage taking over from the sandaime. Wouldn't a more logical solution to solving the Uchiha problem be making one of them hokage.

Itachi was the perfect Hokage Material. Wasn't partial to his clan, loved the Leaf, was really strong. Sandaime could have stood down since he was getting too old. And if Orochimaru had tried a Konoha Invasion, Itachi could have EASILY taken him out. Sandaime would still be there to guide Itachi as he was probably 16 (still older than Gaara).

The Uchiha would have been more accepted in Konoha with an Uchiha Hokage. There would be less resentment from them towards Konoha. With Itachi as Hokage, he would have been the PERFECT bridge between Konoha and Uchiha. He would have the authority to change things that would make the clan happier and less likely to attack konoha.

What do you guys think?

Problem is, no one trusted the Uchiha. For all the elders knew (even if Hiruzen endorsed Itachi), Itachi was secretly working for Uchiha and would give them dominance. They may have faced a worse problem as people would wonder why the Uchiha hokage was being targeted for assassinations all of the sudden.

Plus, Itachi was too young to be a hokage. EVen Kakashi was considered too young, and he's about 31. Itachi was 12 at the time of the massacre, and I don't think they could afforded to wait too long for Itachi to grow up and hope the coup d'etat didn't happen. Either way, Uchiha would have likely used Itachi's position since they were tired of being segregated.

[Suzaku]

Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the citizens of Konohagakure or the leadership of the Land of Fire would ever accept an Uchiha as Hokage. There had always been mistrust towards the Uchiha clan, even when they were given authority over the police force. And rightly so, as the clan was plotting a coup d'etat.

Why reach out to such an unreliable and untrustworthy group when they can just be eliminated?

[chilibun]

@M3J

Actually, I would say most of Konoha did trust the Uchiha and held their clan in high regards. It was mostly the leadership namely, Tobirama, Danzou, and the two other elders that did not trust them. But since Danzou is the real leader of Konoha, and Hiruzen is just a puppet figure head in charge of pr, it indeed would never work.

[Shinomori Aoshi]

There is already a thread with an almost identical theme here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/71811-Itachi...-Hokage). I suppose I'm the only one remembering it because I made it.:p

[Uchiha_Blood]

@M3J

Actually, I would say most of Konoha did trust the Uchiha and held their clan in high regards. It was mostly the leadership namely, Tobirama, Danzou, and the two other elders that did not trust them. But since Danzou is the real leader of Konoha, and Hiruzen is just a puppet figure head in charge of pr, it indeed would never work.

I agree, we didn't see Sasuke never ever being treated as bad as Naruto was, all the countrary.
Remember in part 1? Kakashi and all Konoha had an orgasm every time he talked about Sasuke being an Uchiha and the last of his clan lol

[mattiaildivino]

if u know a clan was planning to take over the village for its own purposes, giving one of them immediate control would be stupidly handing the village to them

separate entity doctrine > village is supposed to be separate from uchiha clan's own personal interests

the elders knew that they could count on itachi's love towards the village,hence it wouldn't have eben so idiotic if they had given him that role.

[RezzieThaRapper]

Okay... if Itachi was Hokage... this would only work if the Uchiha clan massacre had somehow been blamed on another ninja... like Suisui... and Itachi had been heralded as a hero for defeating said Suisui...

Assuming simply going on S-Rank missions and stopping a few threats give Itachi the experience he showed when he first popped up... several things would have been prevented or changed...

1 - Sasuke's story would now be drastically different, maybe even more likeable, he would no longer be revenge driven and only be trying to surpass his brother in the good old sibling rivalry sense, and there would be a much more healthy relationship as they would have grown much closer as a result of Itachi being the hero who stopped the mass murderer instead of him being the mass murderer himself... ... ...It would eventually get dark for Sasuke again once Danzo inadvertantly tells Sasuke the truth about how Itachi was the true murderer and Suisui would be the scapegoat... But if this were the case it would be even harder to deter him from becoming a missing nin

2 - Naruto's story would no longer be Sasuke driven, with Itachi being the hero, and still there to comfort Sasuke 24/7, he and Naruto would no longer be on the same wavelength comparing their loneliness... Naruto would still be driven to be hokage, and still be funny and mischeivious, but his rivalry would not be the same.. They would still go at it, but just casually not fiercely, as if Sasuke was just another character in the rookie 10, Naruto would have plenty more rivalries with other characters though...

3 - The Chuunin exams would have been vastly different... with everyone expecting the most out of Sasuke as he is the Hokage's younger sibling... some people would avoid him completely, but more than likely a lot of teams would have come after them... perhaps pushing them above and beyond much more quickly... maybe because of the hype Gaara goes after him right away... maybe Kabuto goes out of his way to protect him... maybe Orochimaru doesn't press his luck at giving the CS to Sasuke... The Sound and Sand combo attack of the village would have been thawrted, for even if Oro came prepared and used Both The 1st and the 2nd, hell even if he somehow summoned the 4th... the combined power of Hiruzen and Itachi would have utterly crushed his efforts, between having the two most powerful sealing techs, and having the series strongest Genjutsu user, the best Oro could have done was use the sound 4 to use a strong barrier and help him escape, in fact, let's face it, Oro is dead...

4 - Kabuto has the choice to stay in Konoha peacefully, or enact revenge... against Itachi and Hiruzen... lol... he'll have to fight Kakashi, Jiraya, and Tsunade too.. let's just say he'll look for work elsewhere...

5 - The 2 1/2 year timeskip would have Itachi train Sasuke, Tsunade and Shizune train Sakura without Hokage paperwork... and J-man would be able to train Naruto without having to worry about Akatsuki because of the amount of power the village would currently have... I think they would all be on a different level right off the bat...

6 - Deidara would have never have joined akatsuki... Gaara would not have been captured(unless you think Sasori could do it)... Gaara being the sensible one at this point would have messaged the other villages, they would be prepared... the Akatsuki subplot is potholed pretty quickly...

7 - No Hebi/Taka... screw you guys, I love this team...

8 - With all of this conflict brewed down, the other villages get time to shine in the manga and anime...

9 - Maybe Jiraya and Tsunade would have fought Pein and Konan together... they might even bring their better trained cohorts Naruto and Sakura and Shizune... at the very least escape would have been possible in round one...

10 - Naruto finishes his Sage training instead of having to go at it square one... maybe learning more sage tech...

11 - With the villages prepared maybe only one or two tailed beast would be taken... There wouldn't be a ninja war...

12 - if for some reason Pein attacks the village, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraya, Tsunade, Sakura, Kakashi... would be more than enough... we wouldn't have time to hear the stupid Aesop at the end...

13 - Tobi has no say over Sasuke... even if he did... Sasuke ain't enough to flip the world upside down... Tobi would probably try for Naruto instead... not that it would work...

14 - No ninja war... but a better overall ninja world...

15 - Deidara becomes 4th Tsuchikage lol...

16 - Killer Bee trains much further down the line, maybe in his twenties... because that's how far Akatsuki would be pressed back...

EDIT: 17 - with Deidara never joining and Sasori probably being killed by Gaara... and Itachi being the big threat along with J-man... it's highly probable that we would see Kisame, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Kabuto??, Pein and Konan attack Konoha at the same time... But at least you'd have a better trained Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura along with Itachi, J-man, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Hiruzen... it would have been the most epic battle ever... maybe even the sand siblings come and help... it would be an EPIC fight...

[kkck]

The whole scenario still makes no sense to me. So, the uchiha plans a coup and rather than fighting them to the last man they actually hand over leadership of the village to them? I mean, why? Even then, for someone to become hokage he has to be approved by the jonnin (we know for a fact that there is a jonnin vote). The whole plan basically goes to hell the moment the jonnin don't vote for a 13 year old in spite of tsunade or jiraiya having far better resumes and fame (and yes, I meant to have this sound as absurd as it does). More so, itachi loved the village however his clan as a whole resented it enough to risk an actual civil and world war for the sake of control. Does it make sense to have those guys in charge? Now, what would the village have to do to ensure the jonnin vote? the whole thing about a vote is that it is voluntary. Do they make it an S class mission to vote for itachi even though there were at least 2 other perfectly good candidates with far better resumes or do they simply tell the jonnin that if they don't vote for itachi the uchiha are rebelling and taking over anyways? The first option would imply the jonnin would just accept it in spite of the huge "WTF!" that is going to be in their minds during the charade. The second scenario kinda beats the point to the whole thing.

Another issue with this little theory is that itachi in fact does prefer world peace and the well being of the village as a whole before his clan. What happens when itachi's actions as hokage start reflecting that? The uchiha weren't taking over to share power (at least it makes sense they wouldn't risk a civil war in order to share power with the very people they fought after winning), they were taking over to take all of it. We are not talking about everything being the same except that fugaku would call the shots with the old guys as advisors, we are talking about every leadership position being held or controlled by the uchiha. In other words, having itachi as hokage would not give them that and could be easily seen by them as if itachi actually betrayed them. The whole idea of having itachi as hokage would imply that by doing so the uchiha would finally be equal to everyone in the village and everyone would be happy. Issue at hand is the HUGE assumption that the uchiha would want that at all. Even if itachi was made the kage it would not guarantee a long term stopping of the uchiha to completely take over.

[Ryr]

The whole scenario still makes no sense to me. So, the uchiha plans a coup and rather than fighting them to the last man they actually hand over leadership of the village to them?

That's because you are picking the wrong timeline - why should you analyze everything from after the Uchihas planned a coup?

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants. The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them. And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).

So, pick the right timeline if you want to analyze the whole situation - i.e. from before the whole coup thing comes into play.

[zimbardo]

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants.
AKA the strongest ninjas in all of Konoha at the time.


The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them.
I highly doubt that Hiruzen thought in this way. And am not even sure that Hashirama did (who knows about Tobirama). To share leadership doesn't mean to alternate it every new hokage.


And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).
By leadership, you solely mean Danzou. Danzou, being one of the darkest and shiftiest characters in all of Konoha. Neither Hiruzen, nor Minato were ever suggested to act in such a way.

I hold serious reservations that the Uchiha were treated as badly as Tobi made it out to be. Remember Tobi has his own agenda to make Sasuke hate Konoha, and although he often will slip truths into his stories - he will also blur facts and miss things out. Yes the Uchiha lived in their own quarter in Konoha, however this could well be due to the fact that THEY themselves didn't want to live with the Senju (when the first and second were in charge). The idea of a coup, or that the Uchiha were segregated and suppressed, came as a shock to Sasuke for example. And if you suppress people, you definitely do not let them intermingle with your general populace - check out the treatment of Jews by the nazi's for example. Also, the citizens of Konoha thought of the Uchiha as ninjas of Konoha, in the time of Sasuke and Naruto growing up, and were genuinely excited by Sasuke (and Itachi's) growth in the academy. They also thought of Itachi as a villain for killing off Konoha's Uchiha. If the Uchiha were suppressed and treated as badly as Tobi would have us believe, then it is unlikely that this hatred wouldn't have rubbed off, at least a little bit, to the citizens of Konoha.

[blackjack612]

While I think Itachi certainly had the disposition (later in life) to become Hokage, making him the Godaime Hokage would not have ended Senju/Uchiha tensions.

Let's look at what wouldn't have prevented him from becoming Hokage:

Age. Kakashi was considered a bit on the young side but Minato was a young Hokage and Hiruzen was extremely young when he took the position.
Skill. Even with Tobi's help, taking on the entire Uchiha clan is no small feat. If they divied up the targets equally, then Itachi was skilled enough to outfight half the eligible Uchiha fighters. Between that and him awakening the Mangekyo Sharingan, it's safe to say that his genjutsu at least was unmatched.
Faith from the Konoha higher ups. The elders and Danzo trusted Itachi enough to give him the go ahead for the massacre. Consider for a second just how much trust you have to have in someone to ask them to annihilate their entire family and not believe that they'll spill the beans to protect parents, siblings, lovers, friends. Danzo's demonstrated that he had a lot of respect for Itachi in his conversation with Sasuke.


That said, there are a few problems that would have made his ascension to the title of Hokage problematic/unlikely.

The Uchiha coup. This was already a long simmering feud. The whole point of making Itachi Hokage is to appease the Uchiha and prevent civil war, but that action only becomes necessary once the Uchiha had determined to take over Konoha.
The Kyuubi incident. Kurama's attack on Konoha was still fresh and while it was said the attack was a naturally occurring phenomenon, many suspected that the Uchiha had a hand in it since the Sharingan is known to possess the ability to control the beasts. Even with Danzo and Hiruzen's backing, who's to say how many citizens and jonin on the council would have supported Itachi for Hokage.
Itachi's disposition. Though he would later obtain the kind of enlightenment that would be favorable in a Kage candidate, in his youth he relied only on his own strength, partially because he had the skill to believe he could shoulder all his burdens alone and partially because his upbringing made it hard to place trust in the individuals around him. A true Hokage needs to know that he must at times depend on others for support. The strength of friends and allies. Itachi had the requisite duty but not yet a full appreciation for what makes a great leader.


Number 1 is the real issue though. If the Uchiha had merely been discontent rather than outright rebellious so that Itachi had enough time to mature into a proper candidate for Hokage, that'd be one thing. Yet it seems that Itachi's motivations, the driving force behind his quick acclimation of skill (aside from talent), were largely driven by the environment around him. If the Uchiha weren't planning rebellion he felt the need to prevent, would he have advanced so quickly? Or been fast-tracked to ANBU?

[Rikudou King]

AKA the strongest ninjas in all of Konoha at the time.


I highly doubt that Hiruzen thought in this way. And am not even sure that Hashirama did (who knows about Tobirama). To share leadership doesn't mean to alternate it every new hokage.


By leadership, you solely mean Danzou. Danzou, being one of the darkest and shiftiest characters in all of Konoha. Neither Hiruzen, nor Minato were ever suggested to act in such a way.

I hold serious reservations that the Uchiha were treated as badly as Tobi made it out to be. Remember Tobi has his own agenda to make Sasuke hate Konoha, and although he often will slip truths into his stories - he will also blur facts and miss things out. Yes the Uchiha lived in their own quarter in Konoha, however this could well be due to the fact that THEY themselves didn't want to live with the Senju (when the first and second were in charge). The idea of a coup, or that the Uchiha were segregated and suppressed, came as a shock to Sasuke for example. And if you suppress people, you definitely do not let them intermingle with your general populace - check out the treatment of Jews by the nazi's for example. Also, the citizens of Konoha thought of the Uchiha as ninjas of Konoha, in the time of Sasuke and Naruto growing up, and were genuinely excited by Sasuke (and Itachi's) growth in the academy. They also thought of Itachi as a villain for killing off Konoha's Uchiha. If the Uchiha were suppressed and treated as badly as Tobi would have us believe, then it is unlikely that this hatred wouldn't have rubbed off, at least a little bit, to the citizens of Konoha. We pretty much witness that the selection of Hokage came down to more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Tobirama and Sarutobi specifically pick their successors, and when one hadn't been chosen beforehand, the candidate was picked due to who they were connected to. So there did appear to be a slight bias as to who would be put up for the title.

As for the discrimination, Tobi didn't said the village as a whole discriminated, but the higher ups did. The Uchihas wouldn't have had a reason to plan the coup in the first place unless it was true, considering they clearly were fine enough with Senju ruling at the beginning to chose it over following Madara. Just randomly deciding to throw a coup after 50~ years seems an unlikely thing they would do. In addition, it was implied pretty early in the series that Sasuke due to possessing a Bloodline Limit, had faced hardships from having it.

[zimbardo]

We pretty much witness that the selection of Hokage came down to more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Tobirama and Sarutobi specifically pick their successors, and when one hadn't been chosen beforehand, the candidate was picked due to who they were connected to. So there did appear to be a slight bias as to who would be put up for the title.
Unless you are going to claim that both Hiruzen and Minato were weak, then you can not claim that it was more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Hiruzen and Minato have been shown to be incredibly strong and skilled, and were recognized for their ability outside of Konoha as well as inside it. There may have been slight bias, who knows what Minato's relationship with Hiruzen was - but they were still the strongest Ninjas in Konoha at the time of them being chosen for Hokageship.


As for the discrimination, Tobi didn't said the village as a whole discriminated, but the higher ups did. The Uchihas wouldn't have had a reason to plan the coup in the first place unless it was true, considering they clearly were fine enough with Senju ruling at the beginning to chose it over following Madara. Just randomly deciding to throw a coup after 50~ years seems an unlikely thing they would do. In addition, it was implied pretty early in the series that Sasuke due to possessing a Bloodline Limit, had faced hardships from having it.
But we have already seen that Hiruzen didn't discriminate at all. In fact he actively tried to bring the Uchiha back into the proverbial fold, as he recognized their strength and also respected them as Konoha ninjas. There are many reasons why the Uchiha could have planned a coup, other than them being discriminated against. Perhaps Fugaku Uchiha just wanted power? It is entirely possible that he just desired to rule Konoha, and as he feared Minato's talent he only felt safe planning a coup following Minato sealing himself to take out the 9tails. It would not take too much, and would be entirely believable, for Kishimoto to decide to elaborate on the Uchiha story, and include a reason like this to show how Tobi had been misleading Sasuke all along. It is also possible that the Uchiha may have actually felt discriminated against, however I see no reason to trust Tobi in everything he says following the exposed half-truths he has told so far. Especially considering how neatly the discrimination, if it were true, would fit into his plans.

[kkck]

That's because you are picking the wrong timeline - why should you analyze everything from after the Uchihas planned a coup?

The original agreement between the Senju and the Uchiha is for them to share power, and sharing power doesn't mean stuffing the top leadership with your own brother, students and confidants. The Uchihas planned a coup after realizing that the top leadership (which now consists of the aforesaid group of confidants) has no trust in them and will never share the leadership of the village with them. And that's not all, the leadership also spied on them and ripped eyes from the Uchihas (notably, from Shisui).

So, pick the right timeline if you want to analyze the whole situation - i.e. from before the whole coup thing comes into play.

Well, the original agreement was to unite a bunch of clans under a single organization, not just the uchiha and senju and whatnot. The senju and the uchiha were simply the most notables clan there. I don't think it makes all that much sense to analyse this retroactively, at least not that way. We do have the facts of what the entire situation resulted in, how can we possibly take that into account in that context? At best we should analyse what could have been done better in the past taking in consideration they had no idea of what the future was.

The top brass in konoha not having trust in the uchiha was due to uchiha actions though. If we take tobi's word (which we seem to be doing so far) we already know that the uchiha at some point started taking seriously what madara said about the senju taking over and the uchiha being relegated to basically servants which as far as we know was before the second hokage became wary of them. How exactly is konoha's leadership supposed to react if they know a very powerful clan within the village was less than happy with the government for no apparent reason other than them not having positions of power? The hokage is voted for anyways (granted, they are not given choices, they are merely given the option to approve or reject someone) meaning that whoever was made the kage was made so under the consensus of the village. Its not like the top brass was made entirely out of senju either. Hashirama was a senju however we know for a fact that he had the approval of every clan in the village. We don't know for a fact much about tobirama however we don't have reason to believe he was not approved of by most. Hiruzen and minato were not even senju, they were merely trained by them (so much for the evil senju conspiracy to take over) and tsunade as far as we know was approved by the jonnin. I doubt that after 50 years and 2 generations of kage we would see the evil senju jumpstarting their plan to take over, that makes no sense to me.

[Gats]

I disagree. Sure there were rare people among the Uchiha who didn't like this situation (they were too proud), but overall it was really fine (*). The real trigger was Kyuubi then the segregation of the Uchiha in a corner of the village.

(*) the other option would be a smooth segregation confining the Uchiha to one part of the village's administration only, at this point, Uchiha being upset about that is normal. We simply don't know if they were allowed to be anything else near the power (Hokage/Higher up), we can safely assume that there were Uchiha people who had a legitimate ambition but have been rejected, pretexting that after all they have the military police for themselves, it's a convenient excuse that not everyone can accept. If this what happened, can't blame the Uchiha to feel bad about it too.

[Rikudou King]

Unless you are going to claim that both Hiruzen and Minato were weak, then you can not claim that it was more one's popularity and personal connections then specific strength. Both Hiruzen and Minato have been shown to be incredibly strong and skilled, and were recognized for their ability outside of Konoha as well as inside it. There may have been slight bias, who knows what Minato's relationship with Hiruzen was - but they were still the strongest Ninjas in Konoha at the time of them being chosen for Hokageship. Strong =/= strongest in village. I have a very hard time believing that when Tobirama decided to sacrifice himself and picked Sarutobi as Hokage, he was the second strongest person in the village. Surely there had to have been more experience ninjas. And Minato was picked after Sarutobi discovered what a monster Orochimaru was, so it wasn't merely on the idea of being the strongest ninja in Konoha. Regardless, we outright saw the progress of choosing a Hokage after the Pain invasion. Kakashi wasn't gonna be chosen because he was the "most powerful" in Konoha, he was picked in part because he was Minato's pupil. Neither Kakashi or Danzo were the "strongest" in Konoha at the time. Nor could that even be claimed about Tsunade, who wasn't even apart of the village at that time and was picked because Jiraiya didn't want it. Power may be apart of it, but there's plenty showing that connections have a bigger role.


But we have already seen that Hiruzen didn't discriminate at all. In fact he actively tried to bring the Uchiha back into the proverbial fold, as he recognized their strength and also respected them as Konoha ninjas. There are many reasons why the Uchiha could have planned a coup, other than them being discriminated against. Perhaps Fugaku Uchiha just wanted power? It is entirely possible that he just desired to rule Konoha, and as he feared Minato's talent he only felt safe planning a coup following Minato sealing himself to take out the 9tails. It would not take too much, and would be entirely believable, for Kishimoto to decide to elaborate on the Uchiha story, and include a reason like this to show how Tobi had been misleading Sasuke all along. It is also possible that the Uchiha may have actually felt discriminated against, however I see no reason to trust Tobi in everything he says following the exposed half-truths he has told so far. Especially considering how neatly the discrimination, if it were true, would fit into his plans. He also allowed Danzo and co to discriminate and go through with the massacre. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait seven years? Surely, the best time to stage a coup would have been right after the attack, when the village was still reeling from the damage. What trigger the grab for power specifically at that time? And why, if it was something like that, did the entire clan have to go? The only lie of Tobi that has been exposed is that the Kyuubi wasn't is doing and possibility that he's not Madara. Regardless, comments made by Danzo and Itachi imply that the situation was as he claimed.

[Zehahaha]

Well, the original agreement was to unite a bunch of clans under a single organization, not just the uchiha and senju and whatnot. The senju and the uchiha were simply the most notables clan there. I don't think it makes all that much sense to analyse this retroactively, at least not that way. We do have the facts of what the entire situation resulted in, how can we possibly take that into account in that context? At best we should analyse what could have been done better in the past taking in consideration they had no idea of what the future was.

The top brass in konoha not having trust in the uchiha was due to uchiha actions though. If we take tobi's word (which we seem to be doing so far) we already know that the uchiha at some point started taking seriously what madara said about the senju taking over and the uchiha being relegated to basically servants which as far as we know was before the second hokage became wary of them. How exactly is konoha's leadership supposed to react if they know a very powerful clan within the village was less than happy with the government for no apparent reason other than them not having positions of power? The hokage is voted for anyways (granted, they are not given choices, they are merely given the option to approve or reject someone) meaning that whoever was made the kage was made so under the consensus of the village. Its not like the top brass was made entirely out of senju either. Hashirama was a senju however we know for a fact that he had the approval of every clan in the village. We don't know for a fact much about tobirama however we don't have reason to believe he was not approved of by most. Hiruzen and minato were not even senju, they were merely trained by them (so much for the evil senju conspiracy to take over) and tsunade as far as we know was approved by the jonnin. I doubt that after 50 years and 2 generations of kage we would see the evil senju jumpstarting their plan to take over, that makes no sense to me.

It was the agreement between Senju and Uchiha that gave birth to Konoha, Uchiha and Senju alone.
All the higher ups had relation to the Senju : Tsunade/Tobirama/Hashirama being Senju, and Hiruzen being a student of both Tobirama and Hashirama, and Minato being the student of Jiraiya who was the student of Hiruzen. Koharu and Homura and Danzo were all close to the Senju too.

Are you telling me, that in the past 50 years, there hasn't been a single Uchiha skilled enough to become Hokage ? But let's suppose it is the case anyway, how come Hiruzen didn't appoint Shisui to become Hokage ? The guy seemed to be skilled, he had a reputation, even Bee acknowledged him, he had the same ideals as Hiruzen... And yet he wasn't appointed, and instead got sacrified... Konoha sacrified two, no not two, but three (Itachi, Shisui, Sasuke) of the most skilled shinobis we've ever seen because of some dumb discrimination made by Danzo and the advisors.

Konoha's biggest enemies in the end are these three, they created Konoha's biggest dangers : Nagato, Kabuto, Sasuke...

[kkck]

I know of the relation between the kages, I merely pointed out that its not like senju named people are the only ones allowed to power as we have in fact seen non senju people in power. Just having these guys follow what would be senju ideals is not enough to point at a huge conspiracy where only the senju got their way.

And what relevance is there to how skilled shisui was? Even if what you are saying made sense, shisui would have been too young to be the kage when they were being appointed. Itachi would have been too young when the kyubi attacked too. For that matter, even 30 year old kakashi and minato were seen as too young for the position (minato did get it though). And that takes up back to the dilema of having the top brass giving the uchiha the kage position even though there are still others more experienced and more qualified (mainly the sannin). Also, shisui sacrificed himself out of his own will as far as we know.

[zimbardo]

Strong =/= strongest in village. I have a very hard time believing that when Tobirama decided to sacrifice himself and picked Sarutobi as Hokage, he was the second strongest person in the village. Surely there had to have been more experience ninjas. And Minato was picked after Sarutobi discovered what a monster Orochimaru was, so it wasn't merely on the idea of being the strongest ninja in Konoha. Regardless, we outright saw the progress of choosing a Hokage after the Pain invasion. Kakashi wasn't gonna be chosen because he was the "most powerful" in Konoha, he was picked in part because he was Minato's pupil. Neither Kakashi or Danzo were the "strongest" in Konoha at the time. Nor could that even be claimed about Tsunade, who wasn't even apart of the village at that time and was picked because Jiraiya didn't want it. Power may be apart of it, but there's plenty showing that connections have a bigger role.
Well, he was picked for a special team that included Tobirama. He also said that he was the strongest out of that group (though he could have been ignoring Tobirama when he said this, it still doesn't make a difference once Tobirama had died and he became hokage). Therefore he had to be pretty damn strong. Also experience =/= strength either. And going by the fact that it was a period of war, it is likely that he did have some degree of experience to go with his skills.
Also, the Danzou case was somewhat special. The village had just been destroyed by Pain, Tsunade was in a coma, and the elders decided that with the threat posed by Akatsuki they had to get a new hokage as soon as possible (rather than wait for Tsunade to recover). It was a rushed decision, and therefore they were going to pick Kakashi as he was not only skilled and had suitable ideals, but also because he was known throughout Konoha and would be ideal to help bring the citizens of Konoha back together/give them some concept of hope.
Also, on the Tsunade issue – to be a Hokage you have to be capable of the position, not just the strongest. Jiraiya declaired himself incapable due to his mindset, the elders couldn't force him to do it as he would not be a good hokage if he was not willing to do all the jobs required that go with the role – for example all the paperwork.
I am sorry, but we will have to disagree with connections being a larger influence than power.


He also allowed Danzo and co to discriminate and go through with the massacre. Anyway, if that was the case, why wait seven years? Surely, the best time to stage a coup would have been right after the attack, when the village was still reeling from the damage. What trigger the grab for power specifically at that time? And why, if it was something like that, did the entire clan have to go? The only lie of Tobi that has been exposed is that the Kyuubi wasn't is doing and possibility that he's not Madara. Regardless, comments made by Danzo and Itachi imply that the situation was as he claimed.
You can not stop someone discriminating. At least not easily. Hiruzen worked with Uchiha, allowed Uchiha children to mingle with, and learn with, the other children, gave equal rights to the Uchiha (as far as we know). Who knows what Danzou did, but it is not like he treats people from Konoha all that well (i.e. bribing orphanages inside Konoha), so I hardly think he is a good example of a nice normal person who is discriminating specifically against the Uchiha.
Perhaps it took 7 years to convince the other Uchiha, and also to plan the coup? It is not like the ninjas from Konoha are slouches, you have to be careful when planning such a takeover. The best time may have been after the attack, but perhaps he didn't see his chance until then – or he didn't have the full support of the Uchiha clan until then (I mean full support to do such an attack)?
I also agree that it is silly that the whole clan had to be destroyed, especially the old women and children – who are incapable of fighting. However we do not know how many Uchiha there were, or how many of them were plotting, just that they were. I believe Itachi should have just killed the plotters (if he could work out who they are), and then run away as a missing nin (as he did anyway), however that is a different topic of conversation from this thread.
Also, the Kyuubi not being his doing, and him being Madara are both vital tools for him getting Sasuke on his side. Both enable him to seek sympathy from Sasuke, and forward his goal. If he said that he was not Madara, and that the Kyuubi had been his attempt to destroy Konoha, then it is unlikely that Sasuke would have joined him. It is also possible that Sasuke could have seen that the mistrust for Uchiha (had there actually been any before the coup) could have been caused by the rest of Konoha worried that they had summoned the kyuubi. Also, in all fairness, Danzou and Itachi have not said anything concrete to go with what Tobi had said, just the old “so you know what happened then.” It is possible that they don't know quite what Sasuke does and does not know and therefore just suspect that he knows the truth (not knowing how Tobi has twisted the facts – if he has).

[mattiaildivino]

Okay... if Itachi was Hokage... this would only work if the Uchiha clan massacre had somehow been blamed on another ninja... like Suisui... and Itachi had been heralded as a hero for defeating said Suisui...

Assuming simply going on S-Rank missions and stopping a few threats give Itachi the experience he showed when he first popped up... several things would have been prevented or changed...

1 - Sasuke's story would now be drastically different, maybe even more likeable, he would no longer be revenge driven and only be trying to surpass his brother in the good old sibling rivalry sense, and there would be a much more healthy relationship as they would have grown much closer as a result of Itachi being the hero who stopped the mass murderer instead of him being the mass murderer himself... ... ...It would eventually get dark for Sasuke again once Danzo inadvertantly tells Sasuke the truth about how Itachi was the true murderer and Suisui would be the scapegoat... But if this were the case it would be even harder to deter him from becoming a missing nin

2 - Naruto's story would no longer be Sasuke driven, with Itachi being the hero, and still there to comfort Sasuke 24/7, he and Naruto would no longer be on the same wavelength comparing their loneliness... Naruto would still be driven to be hokage, and still be funny and mischeivious, but his rivalry would not be the same.. They would still go at it, but just casually not fiercely, as if Sasuke was just another character in the rookie 10, Naruto would have plenty more rivalries with other characters though...

3 - The Chuunin exams would have been vastly different... with everyone expecting the most out of Sasuke as he is the Hokage's younger sibling... some people would avoid him completely, but more than likely a lot of teams would have come after them... perhaps pushing them above and beyond much more quickly... maybe because of the hype Gaara goes after him right away... maybe Kabuto goes out of his way to protect him... maybe Orochimaru doesn't press his luck at giving the CS to Sasuke... The Sound and Sand combo attack of the village would have been thawrted, for even if Oro came prepared and used Both The 1st and the 2nd, hell even if he somehow summoned the 4th... the combined power of Hiruzen and Itachi would have utterly crushed his efforts, between having the two most powerful sealing techs, and having the series strongest Genjutsu user, the best Oro could have done was use the sound 4 to use a strong barrier and help him escape, in fact, let's face it, Oro is dead...

4 - Kabuto has the choice to stay in Konoha peacefully, or enact revenge... against Itachi and Hiruzen... lol... he'll have to fight Kakashi, Jiraya, and Tsunade too.. let's just say he'll look for work elsewhere...

5 - The 2 1/2 year timeskip would have Itachi train Sasuke, Tsunade and Shizune train Sakura without Hokage paperwork... and J-man would be able to train Naruto without having to worry about Akatsuki because of the amount of power the village would currently have... I think they would all be on a different level right off the bat...

6 - Deidara would have never have joined akatsuki... Gaara would not have been captured(unless you think Sasori could do it)... Gaara being the sensible one at this point would have messaged the other villages, they would be prepared... the Akatsuki subplot is potholed pretty quickly...

7 - No Hebi/Taka... screw you guys, I love this team...

8 - With all of this conflict brewed down, the other villages get time to shine in the manga and anime...

9 - Maybe Jiraya and Tsunade would have fought Pein and Konan together... they might even bring their better trained cohorts Naruto and Sakura and Shizune... at the very least escape would have been possible in round one...

10 - Naruto finishes his Sage training instead of having to go at it square one... maybe learning more sage tech...

11 - With the villages prepared maybe only one or two tailed beast would be taken... There wouldn't be a ninja war...

12 - if for some reason Pein attacks the village, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraya, Tsunade, Sakura, Kakashi... would be more than enough... we wouldn't have time to hear the stupid Aesop at the end...

13 - Tobi has no say over Sasuke... even if he did... Sasuke ain't enough to flip the world upside down... Tobi would probably try for Naruto instead... not that it would work...

14 - No ninja war... but a better overall ninja world...

15 - Deidara becomes 4th Tsuchikage lol...

16 - Killer Bee trains much further down the line, maybe in his twenties... because that's how far Akatsuki would be pressed back...

EDIT: 17 - with Deidara never joining and Sasori probably being killed by Gaara... and Itachi being the big threat along with J-man... it's highly probable that we would see Kisame, Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Kabuto??, Pein and Konan attack Konoha at the same time... But at least you'd have a better trained Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura along with Itachi, J-man, Tsunade, Kakashi, and Hiruzen... it would have been the most epic battle ever... maybe even the sand siblings come and help... it would be an EPIC fight...

just to correct 2 points: if itachi hadn't joined akatsuki,it's true that deidara wouldn't have done that either,but orochimaru would have stayed there. and Sasori would have stomped gaara,for 2 reasons which help each other: 1)deidara admitted that Sasori was stronger than him ; 2)the 3rd kazekage,the strongest ninja of the Sand(hence stronger than gaara) was defeated by Sasori.

[kkck]

Well, the issue here is that I doubt anyone in the uchiha would really be defenseless. They were a ninja clan of very strong people, each and every one of them was trained to be deadly which is an issue in a clan where the manga stated every ninja was an elite shinobi (If I recall the gaiden pointed that out). Also, we have seen plenty of old people who were insanely strong such as hiruzen, chiyo or the third raikage. Granted that those are probably the more exagerated cases but does it make sense to assume old people in the manga are plain useless? Old people who would potentially tell children that their ninja elite parents were killed by the village to stop a coup? Anyone old enough to know what was going on could grow up to fight the village. Clearly it is not in the best interest of the village for the clan to go to another village either.

[Rikudou King]

Well, he was picked for a special team that included Tobirama. He also said that he was the strongest out of that group (though he could have been ignoring Tobirama when he said this, it still doesn't make a difference once Tobirama had died and he became hokage). Therefore he had to be pretty damn strong. Also experience =/= strength either. And going by the fact that it was a period of war, it is likely that he did have some degree of experience to go with his skills.
Also, the Danzou case was somewhat special. The village had just been destroyed by Pain, Tsunade was in a coma, and the elders decided that with the threat posed by Akatsuki they had to get a new hokage as soon as possible (rather than wait for Tsunade to recover). It was a rushed decision, and therefore they were going to pick Kakashi as he was not only skilled and had suitable ideals, but also because he was known throughout Konoha and would be ideal to help bring the citizens of Konoha back together/give them some concept of hope.
Also, on the Tsunade issue – to be a Hokage you have to be capable of the position, not just the strongest. Jiraiya declaired himself incapable due to his mindset, the elders couldn't force him to do it as he would not be a good hokage if he was not willing to do all the jobs required that go with the role – for example all the paperwork.
I am sorry, but we will have to disagree with connections being a larger influence than power. Which again only goes to show he was strong, but not the "second strongest" in the village. Outside of the usage of hax abilities, experience would be a good indicator and with it being a period of war, then the same would be said of any ninja. The point with Kakashi was that we saw the process he went through to get chosen, and it had far more to do with who he had been trained by then mere strength. The Daimyo admitted that he had wanted Jiraiya because he liked him and was gonna pick Kakashi because he was the student of Jiraiya's student. Anyway, how was Tsunade more capable of the position? She didn't appear at all any better then Jiraiya would have been.


You can not stop someone discriminating. At least not easily. Hiruzen worked with Uchiha, allowed Uchiha children to mingle with, and learn with, the other children, gave equal rights to the Uchiha (as far as we know). Who knows what Danzou did, but it is not like he treats people from Konoha all that well (i.e. bribing orphanages inside Konoha), so I hardly think he is a good example of a nice normal person who is discriminating specifically against the Uchiha.
Perhaps it took 7 years to convince the other Uchiha, and also to plan the coup? It is not like the ninjas from Konoha are slouches, you have to be careful when planning such a takeover. The best time may have been after the attack, but perhaps he didn't see his chance until then – or he didn't have the full support of the Uchiha clan until then (I mean full support to do such an attack)?
I also agree that it is silly that the whole clan had to be destroyed, especially the old women and children – who are incapable of fighting. However we do not know how many Uchiha there were, or how many of them were plotting, just that they were. I believe Itachi should have just killed the plotters (if he could work out who they are), and then run away as a missing nin (as he did anyway), however that is a different topic of conversation from this thread.
Also, the Kyuubi not being his doing, and him being Madara are both vital tools for him getting Sasuke on his side. Both enable him to seek sympathy from Sasuke, and forward his goal. If he said that he was not Madara, and that the Kyuubi had been his attempt to destroy Konoha, then it is unlikely that Sasuke would have joined him. It is also possible that Sasuke could have seen that the mistrust for Uchiha (had there actually been any before the coup) could have been caused by the rest of Konoha worried that they had summoned the kyuubi. Also, in all fairness, Danzou and Itachi have not said anything concrete to go with what Tobi had said, just the old “so you know what happened then.” It is possible that they don't know quite what Sasuke does and does not know and therefore just suspect that he knows the truth (not knowing how Tobi has twisted the facts – if he has). We're not talking about some random act of discrimination, we're talking about a specific militaristic action being taken. As the leader of said military, Sarutobi should have been capable of ordering it cancelled. And it wasn't just Danzo in on it, but the Elders too.

That would still bring about the question as to why they would side with him unless they had some reason to do so. Him simply being their leader doesn't work, as we saw with Madara, the Uchiha clan was shown to fully be willing to go against their leader in support of Konoha. In addition, considering Shisui and Itachi, if he had gone around trying to convince the others, surely they would have acted before it got to the point of actually planing the coup. As for Tobi getting Sasuke feeling sympathy, perhaps the lie about the Kyuubi, but not the one about being Madara, especially when he admitted to helping eliminate the clan. I doubt Sasuke would have cared whether Tobi was Madara or not, seeing as he had no connection other then clan pride to him. And Itachi did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village while Danzo confirmed it was on his orders that it was done.

[zimbardo]

Which again only goes to show he was strong, but not the "second strongest" in the village. Outside of the usage of hax abilities, experience would be a good indicator and with it being a period of war, then the same would be said of any ninja. The point with Kakashi was that we saw the process he went through to get chosen, and it had far more to do with who he had been trained by then mere strength. The Daimyo admitted that he had wanted Jiraiya because he liked him and was gonna pick Kakashi because he was the student of Jiraiya's student. Anyway, how was Tsunade more capable of the position? She didn't appear at all any better then Jiraiya would have been.

He was the 2nd strongest out of everyone that we have seen though. We can not say for sure that there was anyone stronger. There is nothing to say that Tobirama couldn't have said “Hiruzen, please tell <insert name here> that from tomorrow onwards <he/she> will be the next hokage.”
There is also nothing to say that anyone else had any more useful experience. Just being older, doesn't mean that your experiences are any more useful. Fact is that Hiruzen had been working with Tobirama, on missions that demanded Hokage skills (likely – or else why would Tobirama be on the missions and not just some other ninja?).
Hiruzen has also seen first hand what is demanded of a Hokage, and therefore is likely understanding of the demands of the job.
As I said, Kakashi was a different case. Danzou convinced the others that a change in leadership was vital at that point. Therefore the choosing of a Hokage needed to be rushed. This was even shown by Danzou being 'hokage' and still not fully in the position as the jounin vote had not been fully conducted.
As for the Daimyo choosing Jiraiya, well, firstly the Daimyo appreciated Jiraiya's ideals, he also knew that Jiraiya was strong enough for the role. Secondly, the Daimyo isn't the sole decider on a new Hokage – the village needs to vote also. He was also going to choose Kakashi because of his reputation as a skilled ninja.
As for Tsunade being more capable, well you can see that as soon as she got back to Konoha she took up the responsibilities right away. This includes all the paperwork that Jiraiya would never want to do. Jiraiya likes to be free to wander, not cooped up in a village.


We're not talking about some random act of discrimination, we're talking about a specific militaristic action being taken. As the leader of said military, Sarutobi should have been capable of ordering it cancelled. And it wasn't just Danzo in on it, but the Elders too.

That would still bring about the question as to why they would side with him unless they had some reason to do so. Him simply being their leader doesn't work, as we saw with Madara, the Uchiha clan was shown to fully be willing to go against their leader in support of Konoha. In addition, considering Shisui and Itachi, if he had gone around trying to convince the others, surely they would have acted before it got to the point of actually planing the coup. As for Tobi getting Sasuke feeling sympathy, perhaps the lie about the Kyuubi, but not the one about being Madara, especially when he admitted to helping eliminate the clan. I doubt Sasuke would have cared whether Tobi was Madara or not, seeing as he had no connection other then clan pride to him. And Itachi did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village while Danzo confirmed it was on his orders that it was done.

But we have seen that there are many things that were out of Sarutobi's control during his reign. Fact is that Sarutobi tried his best to seek a diplomatic solution, up until the last moment. There is nothing to say that Sarutobi ever fully supported the attack. For all we know, Danzou could have been the one to order Itachi. And the elders are both as untrustworthy as Danzou in my opinion. 3 people =/= village discrimination no matter how high their positions are.
They didn't side with Madara because they had been fighting for so long that they were sick of it, and desired peace. This is not the same as when they were plotting a revolution, as they had some stability here. Not surely. There is nothing to say that others would have been so easy to convince as Itachi and Shisui. Itachi was a special case, and as Shisui was his best friend it is possible that their characters were similar or they shared similar ideals. Trying to convince others would be leading to them taking a stance for the village against the Uchiha (or the Uchiha revolutionaries could put this slant on the argument).
But clan pride is what has been drawing Sasuke along so far. Or was before this shifted to his brotherly infatuation. He made it out that, as Madara, he was shunned from the village for predicting the Uchiha suppression – and therefore the later revolution.
Both Itachi and Danzou did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village, however neither suggested the reason for this. Neither said it was down to the suppression of the Uchiha either.

[Rikudou King]

He was the 2nd strongest out of everyone that we have seen though. We can not say for sure that there was anyone stronger. There is nothing to say that Tobirama couldn't have said “Hiruzen, please tell <insert name here> that from tomorrow onwards <he/she> will be the next hokage.”
There is also nothing to say that anyone else had any more useful experience. Just being older, doesn't mean that your experiences are any more useful. Fact is that Hiruzen had been working with Tobirama, on missions that demanded Hokage skills (likely – or else why would Tobirama be on the missions and not just some other ninja?).
Hiruzen has also seen first hand what is demanded of a Hokage, and therefore is likely understanding of the demands of the job.
As I said, Kakashi was a different case. Danzou convinced the others that a change in leadership was vital at that point. Therefore the choosing of a Hokage needed to be rushed. This was even shown by Danzou being 'hokage' and still not fully in the position as the jounin vote had not been fully conducted.
As for the Daimyo choosing Jiraiya, well, firstly the Daimyo appreciated Jiraiya's ideals, he also knew that Jiraiya was strong enough for the role. Secondly, the Daimyo isn't the sole decider on a new Hokage – the village needs to vote also. He was also going to choose Kakashi because of his reputation as a skilled ninja.
As for Tsunade being more capable, well you can see that as soon as she got back to Konoha she took up the responsibilities right away. This includes all the paperwork that Jiraiya would never want to do. Jiraiya likes to be free to wander, not cooped up in a village. True, we can't say for sure, but the odds would be for it. The previous generation that Hashirama and Tobirama had fought alongside would still have been up and active, so while experience wouldn't mean everything, it would mean something. There doesn't seem to be anything unique about what a Hokage is required to do. Jiraiya and Kakashi were clearly gonna be thrown in without possessing any more experience towards the demands expected. Tsunade was thrown in without any experience with the demands.

I'm not sure how you can say it was rushed. The choosing of Jiraiya/Tsunade seem to have happen in the same amount of time. The point being, a factor in it all was who knew who. The Daimyo specifically mentioned liking Jiraiya as his reasoning, and when Kakashi was brought up, his deciding factor was who trained him. The village merely approves the new Hokage. They don't appear to have a say in who any of the candidates are. I don't think just doing paperwork shows one is capable. Making decisions that's in the villages best interest is far more important.


But we have seen that there are many things that were out of Sarutobi's control during his reign. Fact is that Sarutobi tried his best to seek a diplomatic solution, up until the last moment. There is nothing to say that Sarutobi ever fully supported the attack. For all we know, Danzou could have been the one to order Itachi. And the elders are both as untrustworthy as Danzou in my opinion. 3 people =/= village discrimination no matter how high their positions are.
They didn't side with Madara because they had been fighting for so long that they were sick of it, and desired peace. This is not the same as when they were plotting a revolution, as they had some stability here. Not surely. There is nothing to say that others would have been so easy to convince as Itachi and Shisui. Itachi was a special case, and as Shisui was his best friend it is possible that their characters were similar or they shared similar ideals. Trying to convince others would be leading to them taking a stance for the village against the Uchiha (or the Uchiha revolutionaries could put this slant on the argument).
But clan pride is what has been drawing Sasuke along so far. Or was before this shifted to his brotherly infatuation. He made it out that, as Madara, he was shunned from the village for predicting the Uchiha suppression – and therefore the later revolution.
Both Itachi and Danzou did basically confirm that the Uchiha tried to take over the village, however neither suggested the reason for this. Neither said it was down to the suppression of the Uchiha either. There's a difference between not having control over something he wasn't aware of and not having control over something he did. He was inform of the situation with the Uchihas, otherwise he couldn't have attempted said diplomatic solution. He may not fully supported it, but he knew it was gonna go down eventually and allowed those responsible to be free. I would say given their actions against Tsunade, the Elders have a pretty good understanding of what is needed for the bets of the village, which is pretty much their role. And the discrimination of those higher up would make the efforts of those below quite hard.

Forming a coup would have thrust the whole village into a civil war, not to mention it becoming an open target to any enemy village in the chaos. And that's my point, unless they had some reason to feel Konoha was not being beneficial to them, the others should logically have been like Itachi and Shisui. There's no reason to support a coup if you're getting your way. For everyone but Itachi and Shisui to not support it, and for Konoha not to be aware of it until they were all in for it, there much have been an external trigger for it. And while they have not confirmed the entire story, so far it jives with what Tobi has claim and nothing yet suggest he was lying. It's different then with the Kyuubi, where it was suggested by two different sources he was behind it before he said otherwise.

[zimbardo]

True, we can't say for sure, but the odds would be for it. The previous generation that Hashirama and Tobirama had fought alongside would still have been up and active, so while experience wouldn't mean everything, it would mean something. There doesn't seem to be anything unique about what a Hokage is required to do. Jiraiya and Kakashi were clearly gonna be thrown in without possessing any more experience towards the demands expected. Tsunade was thrown in without any experience with the demands.
I am not sure how you can claim that the odds were for it, just because the previous generation were still around. Fact is that he was chosen to protect the Hokage at a time of war, and that he was specifically chosen for a particularly dangerous mission. As for unique things that a Hogake is required to do, general organisation of the village, missions and shinobi come under this. Kakashi seems much better suited to this menial task work than Jiraiya. True, they had little experience for the task, but Jiraiya must have seen Hiruzen in action (doing Hokage things – not fighting), as he was one of Hiruzens special 3. And Kakashi was a member of ANBU, and so was close to the Hokage, and was also a member of Minato's special 3, and so must have seen Minato doing his general Hokage work also. Both were also Jounin, so could have taken part in accepting Hokages. Tsunade shares similar things with Jiraiya.


I'm not sure how you can say it was rushed. The choosing of Jiraiya/Tsunade seem to have happen in the same amount of time. The point being, a factor in it all was who knew who. The Daimyo specifically mentioned liking Jiraiya as his reasoning, and when Kakashi was brought up, his deciding factor was who trained him. The village merely approves the new Hokage. They don't appear to have a say in who any of the candidates are. I don't think just doing paperwork shows one is capable. Making decisions that's in the villages best interest is far more important.
I can say it was rushed due to Danzou insisting that they elect a new Hokage even though the previous one was still alive. I will not deny that a factor was who was trained by who, as then they are likely to have learned useful techniques from that person. And yes, the village does not get a say (that we have been told), however they do get to outright reject a candidate that they do not see as worthy. Doing paperwork is a lot of the decision making, I did not mean just stamping their name at the bottom of the forms. The paperwork includes allocating missions, accepting missions, assigning ranks, forming squads, etc. This is all far too menial tasks for someone like Jiraiya who would rather be outside the village doing his own thing.


There's a difference between not having control over something he wasn't aware of and not having control over something he did. He was inform of the situation with the Uchihas, otherwise he couldn't have attempted said diplomatic solution. He may not fully supported it, but he knew it was gonna go down eventually and allowed those responsible to be free. I would say given their actions against Tsunade, the Elders have a pretty good understanding of what is needed for the bets of the village, which is pretty much their role. And the discrimination of those higher up would make the efforts of those below quite hard.
He was aware of it, but he had very little control over the event. The manga has shown us time and time again that Danzou (and the elders) will go behind the Hokage's back and do actions that they deem necessary. Hiruzen (and Tsunade) knew what Danzou was like, and what he was doing (perhaps not the specifics), however they allowed him to continue as he was a necessary evil to keep Konoha protected. I am not even sure he could have stopped Danzou if he wanted. By this I mean, sure, he could have forced Danzou into inaction (by locking him up for example), however if then the revolution happened he would be held responsible for not heeding Danzou's warnings. The discrimination however was not shown below, at least there was not a single pannel in the manga that I have yet come across (outside of Tobi's speech) that has shown this discrimination. Neither Minato or Hiruzen has been shown to discriminate (nor Hashirama or Tobirama for that matter), and therefore others would have the role model of a Hokage in not discriminating.


Forming a coup would have thrust the whole village into a civil war, not to mention it becoming an open target to any enemy village in the chaos. And that's my point, unless they had some reason to feel Konoha was not being beneficial to them, the others should logically have been like Itachi and Shisui. There's no reason to support a coup if you're getting your way. For everyone but Itachi and Shisui to not support it, and for Konoha not to be aware of it until they were all in for it, there much have been an external trigger for it. And while they have not confirmed the entire story, so far it jives with what Tobi has claim and nothing yet suggest he was lying. It's different then with the Kyuubi, where it was suggested by two different sources he was behind it before he said otherwise.
Not necessarily true. It may have been an action of pure greed. If condition A is acceptable, but someone suggests if you follow him then condition B will be much better for you (with added Uchiha benefits) then many will choose B just because of the greed factor. Greed can lead people to perform particularly illogical actions at times. And even if you are getting your way, people will always want more. Konoha was not aware of it because the Uchiha thought that there plotting was secret. They wanted to take Konoha by surprise, as then the takeover would be more likely to succeed. Hiruzen and the elders did know, so they tried to sort it out by diplomacy (or at least Hiruzen did) however they were not likely to tell everyone else as this would have led to panic. In fact the sole fact that they didn't spread the news suggests that they respected the Uchiha and did not think of them as lesser people. If they wanted to discriminate against the Uchiha, then there is nothing more strong than to say that they were plotting a coup against all the innocent civilians and the peaceful regime. But Tobi has been telling half-truths (or may have been) and therefore it is likely that much of what Itachi and Danzou suggested (if they do not outright say something) will gel with what Tobi had said. If Tobi had stated that the Uchiha were organizing a revolt because they were:
A – jealous and power-hungry
B – because Hiruzen had slept with Itachi's mother
C – because they desired a war with the Sand which the Hokage refused
Then all 3 would have fitted with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. In fact Tobi could have probably even ignored the revolt aspect and just said that the Hokage hated Uchiha for some reason, and still it would probably have fitted just as well with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. “So you know the reason then?”

[Rikudou King]

I am not sure how you can claim that the odds were for it, just because the previous generation were still around. Fact is that he was chosen to protect the Hokage at a time of war, and that he was specifically chosen for a particularly dangerous mission. As for unique things that a Hogake is required to do, general organisation of the village, missions and shinobi come under this. Kakashi seems much better suited to this menial task work than Jiraiya. True, they had little experience for the task, but Jiraiya must have seen Hiruzen in action (doing Hokage things – not fighting), as he was one of Hiruzens special 3. And Kakashi was a member of ANBU, and so was close to the Hokage, and was also a member of Minato's special 3, and so must have seen Minato doing his general Hokage work also. Both were also Jounin, so could have taken part in accepting Hokages. Tsunade shares similar things with Jiraiya. They were on a diplomatic mission to Kumo that ended up as a dangerous mission. Anyway, I mentioned the odds because of what we witness at the summit and with Minato's "personal" Hokage guards. None of them appear as if they were the second strongest or ready to imminently take up the mantle if called on. Of course that woyuld also apply to the fact that there was a whole group there, not just Sarutobi. It would be quite weird for them all to be above any other ninjas in the village or for Tobirama to choose the second strongest and then a bunch of weaker ninjas for a team. General organization would be something all the jounins would be taught and if needed, would have the council to fall back upon for aid. Unless they were treated like assistants, then they likely wouldn't have experience the inner workings. We've seen that with Tsunade. The only exception would be Orochimaru, who was actually being trained in order to take up the role.


I can say it was rushed due to Danzou insisting that they elect a new Hokage even though the previous one was still alive. I will not deny that a factor was who was trained by who, as then they are likely to have learned useful techniques from that person. And yes, the village does not get a say (that we have been told), however they do get to outright reject a candidate that they do not see as worthy. Doing paperwork is a lot of the decision making, I did not mean just stamping their name at the bottom of the forms. The paperwork includes allocating missions, accepting missions, assigning ranks, forming squads, etc. This is all far too menial tasks for someone like Jiraiya who would rather be outside the village doing his own thing. Alive but incapacitated for an unknown amount of time. Anyway, I would think being trained as ninjas is a lot different from being trained as future leaders. The same with expecting war veteran and men of action to preform menial task. If it was such a critical part of being Hokage and something not everyone is capable of, the none would think this would be a factor in the initial choosing of who would become Hokage. It's not as if Tsunade, who abandoned the village for years, or Kakashi, who's well known for his personality, would appear to be in any better position to deal with menial task then Jiraiya.


He was aware of it, but he had very little control over the event. The manga has shown us time and time again that Danzou (and the elders) will go behind the Hokage's back and do actions that they deem necessary. Hiruzen (and Tsunade) knew what Danzou was like, and what he was doing (perhaps not the specifics), however they allowed him to continue as he was a necessary evil to keep Konoha protected. I am not even sure he could have stopped Danzou if he wanted. By this I mean, sure, he could have forced Danzou into inaction (by locking him up for example), however if then the revolution happened he would be held responsible for not heeding Danzou's warnings. The discrimination however was not shown below, at least there was not a single pannel in the manga that I have yet come across (outside of Tobi's speech) that has shown this discrimination. Neither Minato or Hiruzen has been shown to discriminate (nor Hashirama or Tobirama for that matter), and therefore others would have the role model of a Hokage in not discriminating. But this wasn't a situation where they could go behind his back or act without him being aware. It would have been nearly impossible for them to act within the village as they did without it been known by him. Anyway, considering we have only Sasuke and Tobi's flashback of the Uchihas time in Konoha, we can't say there was no discrimination by them. Don't forget, that even before we were told of the discrimination by Tobi, it was implied all the way in the first arc that Sasuke, by via having a Bloodline Limit, had faced discrimination before.


Not necessarily true. It may have been an action of pure greed. If condition A is acceptable, but someone suggests if you follow him then condition B will be much better for you (with added Uchiha benefits) then many will choose B just because of the greed factor. Greed can lead people to perform particularly illogical actions at times. And even if you are getting your way, people will always want more. Konoha was not aware of it because the Uchiha thought that there plotting was secret. They wanted to take Konoha by surprise, as then the takeover would be more likely to succeed. Hiruzen and the elders did know, so they tried to sort it out by diplomacy (or at least Hiruzen did) however they were not likely to tell everyone else as this would have led to panic. In fact the sole fact that they didn't spread the news suggests that they respected the Uchiha and did not think of them as lesser people. If they wanted to discriminate against the Uchiha, then there is nothing more strong than to say that they were plotting a coup against all the innocent civilians and the peaceful regime. But Tobi has been telling half-truths (or may have been) and therefore it is likely that much of what Itachi and Danzou suggested (if they do not outright say something) will gel with what Tobi had said. If Tobi had stated that the Uchiha were organizing a revolt because they were:
A – jealous and power-hungry
B – because Hiruzen had slept with Itachi's mother
C – because they desired a war with the Sand which the Hokage refused
Then all 3 would have fitted with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. In fact Tobi could have probably even ignored the revolt aspect and just said that the Hokage hated Uchiha for some reason, and still it would probably have fitted just as well with what Itachi and Danzou had suggested. “So you know the reason then?” But again, when given the chance to support Madara for Hokage and make a bid for power, they all turn their back on him. So they couldn't have been that greedy for just power. And my point about Konoha not knowing til the end is that for that to happen, all the other Uchihas would have had to been alright with it right from the start. It would seems really weird that only Itachi would remain loyal to Konoha and that no other Uchiha would be loyal enough to blow the whistle when they learnt of it, instead all the other Uchihas merely being disloyal and greedy for more power. Spreading the news would have causes questions to rises and potentially caused more trouble then keeping quiet. And yes, while it's true various things could have fitted into what Tobi claimed, Itachi and Danzo's agreement isn't the sole pieces we have to fit with it. There's also what we saw during Sasuke's flashback and such.

[zimbardo]

-edit-
Skipped your first point as agree that just because he was with Tobirama doesn't necessarily mean that he was the 2nd strongest. Will just add, however, that this was at a period of war and, due to the nature of the Hokage title (and that killing him/capturing him would be an incredibly useful tool for bribery/military power) it was unlikely that he would not have skilled strong shinobi around him at that point in time - even if on a diplomatic mission.
As for 2nd point, I guess I agree also. Just disagree that Jiraiya's personality is better suited to leadership than Tsunade's, and certainly not Kakashi's.
-edit-


But this wasn't a situation where they could go behind his back or act without him being aware. It would have been nearly impossible for them to act within the village as they did without it been known by him. Anyway, considering we have only Sasuke and Tobi's flashback of the Uchihas time in Konoha, we can't say there was no discrimination by them. Don't forget, that even before we were told of the discrimination by Tobi, it was implied all the way in the first arc that Sasuke, by via having a Bloodline Limit, had faced discrimination before.
Hiruzen tried his approach, just as Danzou and the elders kept pestering him that they should take immediate action (non-diplomatic). When it looked like diplomacy had failed (though it was stated that Hiruzen tried the Diplomatic approach up until the end – if I remember. Please correct me if not the case), Itachi was ordered to terminate all the Uchiha. I do not recall it being stated who gave Itachi these specific orders. It could well have been Danzou, or Hiruzen (though it does seem unlikely to me for Hiruzen to give these kinds of orders as he was somewhat 'naïve' at times in my opinion), and if that was the case it could have been them giving the orders before Hiruzen knew (as in the evening of the massacre). Of course he knew about the plans. I am not denying that there may not have been discrimination, I am just stating that it seems highly unlikely given the role, freedom, and the respect that the Uchiha had in Konoha. It is true that all we have is Tobi's word on the matter, I just do not trust him to be 100% truthful in this matter. And could you please post some pages where it was implied that he had faced discrimination (I do not have time at the moment to look it up – sorry).



But again, when given the chance to support Madara for Hokage and make a bid for power, they all turn their back on him. So they couldn't have been that greedy for just power. And my point about Konoha not knowing til the end is that for that to happen, all the other Uchihas would have had to been alright with it right from the start. It would seems really weird that only Itachi would remain loyal to Konoha and that no other Uchiha would be loyal enough to blow the whistle when they learnt of it, instead all the other Uchihas merely being disloyal and greedy for more power. Spreading the news would have causes questions to rises and potentially caused more trouble then keeping quiet. And yes, while it's true various things could have fitted into what Tobi claimed, Itachi and Danzo's agreement isn't the sole pieces we have to fit with it. There's also what we saw during Sasuke's flashback and such.
But as I said, the Madara case was just after a huge period of wars/fighting. The Uchiha had grown sick of constant conflict and saw Madara as a warmongering ninja. The Uchiha massacre was at a relative time of peace comparatively – certainly a time of greater stability for the Uchiha clan.
I am not saying that all the Uchiha were in on the plan. I find it highly unlikely that they all could have been (especially not the elderly and the children). This also leads me to see how stupid massacring them all was. Now it is possible that locking up the culprits may have led to some sympathy for their cause, or could have been spun by them to incite further unrest. However massacring numerous innocent citizens just to kill a few revolutionaries is really a very bad idea, and the wrong way around it. Therefore it wasn't probably only Itachi who was fine with it, it was just that Itachi was the only one who knew of the plot and was fine with the massacre. The other Uchiha wouldn't have blown a whistle as they were probably a select bunch of strong Uchiha who desired more, they believed Itachi was on their side, turns out they were wrong.
By Sasuke's flashback, do you mean the one scene with Itachi crying? If so, this hardly fits with either suppression, or a revolution for that matter. It just shows that Itachi was sad about what he had done (or been ordered to) for some reason. It fits with Tobi's story, but is hardly proof of anything at all (other than Itachi was sad for some reason).

[Rikudou King]

Hiruzen tried his approach, just as Danzou and the elders kept pestering him that they should take immediate action (non-diplomatic). When it looked like diplomacy had failed (though it was stated that Hiruzen tried the Diplomatic approach up until the end – if I remember. Please correct me if not the case), Itachi was ordered to terminate all the Uchiha. I do not recall it being stated who gave Itachi these specific orders. It could well have been Danzou, or Hiruzen (though it does seem unlikely to me for Hiruzen to give these kinds of orders as he was somewhat 'naïve' at times in my opinion), and if that was the case it could have been them giving the orders before Hiruzen knew (as in the evening of the massacre). Of course he knew about the plans. I am not denying that there may not have been discrimination, I am just stating that it seems highly unlikely given the role, freedom, and the respect that the Uchiha had in Konoha. It is true that all we have is Tobi's word on the matter, I just do not trust him to be 100% truthful in this matter. And could you please post some pages where it was implied that he had faced discrimination (I do not have time at the moment to look it up – sorry). Yeah, Sarutobi was said to have attempted it up until the end. Everything indicates the order came from Danzo, but it should be noted that Itachi went to Sarutobi to have him protect Sasuke. So I question that if Sarutobi had enough authority to keep Sasuke safe, why they same sort of intent couldn't have been used beforehand. Them having freedom and respect doesn't mean there still wasn't some discrimination. We saw a similar situation with Neji and his treatment as a branch member. The branch members as a whole is treated as second class, but Neji was shown somewhat respected, at least by Hinata. Haku suggested it when he was speaking of his own past (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v04/c029/11.html).


But as I said, the Madara case was just after a huge period of wars/fighting. The Uchiha had grown sick of constant conflict and saw Madara as a warmongering ninja. The Uchiha massacre was at a relative time of peace comparatively – certainly a time of greater stability for the Uchiha clan.
I am not saying that all the Uchiha were in on the plan. I find it highly unlikely that they all could have been (especially not the elderly and the children). This also leads me to see how stupid massacring them all was. Now it is possible that locking up the culprits may have led to some sympathy for their cause, or could have been spun by them to incite further unrest. However massacring numerous innocent citizens just to kill a few revolutionaries is really a very bad idea, and the wrong way around it. Therefore it wasn't probably only Itachi who was fine with it, it was just that Itachi was the only one who knew of the plot and was fine with the massacre. The other Uchiha wouldn't have blown a whistle as they were probably a select bunch of strong Uchiha who desired more, they believed Itachi was on their side, turns out they were wrong.
By Sasuke's flashback, do you mean the one scene with Itachi crying? If so, this hardly fits with either suppression, or a revolution for that matter. It just shows that Itachi was sad about what he had done (or been ordered to) for some reason. It fits with Tobi's story, but is hardly proof of anything at all (other than Itachi was sad for some reason). The massacre happen only a few years after the last war ended, as three years before they made peace with Kumo. So the two should have been under comparable circumstances. All the Uchihas had to be in on the plan. Itachi would have had no reason to wipe out the entire clan if they hadn't been. A point has been made twice about one of the reasons Sasuke was spared was due to him not knowing anything of it. If needed, it seems it would have been quite possible to spare any other innocent members in the same way. Which is where the problem lies, because for it to work, they all would have had to be against Konoha and that seems strange. Well I meant his first flashback during VotE, but the crying is good too. But there's also their father's desire for Itachi to become a useful connection between the family and the village, even though the Uchiha's had their own secret connections to the Anbu, and him taking full responsibility towards Itachi's action later on.

[zimbardo]

Yeah, Sarutobi was said to have attempted it up until the end. Everything indicates the order came from Danzo, but it should be noted that Itachi went to Sarutobi to have him protect Sasuke. So I question that if Sarutobi had enough authority to keep Sasuke safe, why they same sort of intent couldn't have been used beforehand. Them having freedom and respect doesn't mean there still wasn't some discrimination. We saw a similar situation with Neji and his treatment as a branch member. The branch members as a whole is treated as second class, but Neji was shown somewhat respected, at least by Hinata. Haku suggested it when he was speaking of his own past (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v04/c029/11.html).
Sarutobi probably did have the authority, and he was wrong (in my opinion) to not force Danzou (and possibly the elder 2) to stand down on the action. However, it is also likely that even if Hiruzen had vetoed the action, Danzou may have given Itachi the orders anyway (as he puts the villages condition over almost any 'evil' actions). Would Hiruzen have then taken action on Danzou (and the 2 elders) in this case? To keep Sasuke alive was considerably easier, and I believe that Itachi came to Hiruzen to stop Danzou taking Sasuke's eyes as well (not that Hiruzen necessarily knew about this). As for the branch discrimination, this only occurs in clan. It has not been shown that anyone else in the village treats the 2nd branch (whatever they are called) any differently from the main branch.


The massacre happen only a few years after the last war ended, as three years before they made peace with Kumo. So the two should have been under comparable circumstances. All the Uchihas had to be in on the plan. Itachi would have had no reason to wipe out the entire clan if they hadn't been. A point has been made twice about one of the reasons Sasuke was spared was due to him not knowing anything of it. If needed, it seems it would have been quite possible to spare any other innocent members in the same way. Which is where the problem lies, because for it to work, they all would have had to be against Konoha and that seems strange. Well I meant his first flashback during VotE, but the crying is good too. But there's also their father's desire for Itachi to become a useful connection between the family and the village, even though the Uchiha's had their own secret connections to the Anbu, and him taking full responsibility towards Itachi's action later on.
But the circumstances are not comparable. In Hashirama's time there was no village system. All the clans worked for themselves only, and therefore they lacked the stability and backing that belonging to the village gives them. Therefore forming this truce did more than just stopping them dying, it gave them a time of relative peace and some degree of protection. However in Hiruzen's time, although it was a time of war, the Uchiha were not as segregated and individualistic as they were in Hashiramas. It is not possible that Sasuke was the only innocent. There must have been other children (for example) who can't have known about it. I believe it was more likely that Danzou gave the order to kill all Uchiha (as he may well have desired as many eyes as possible/hated Uchiha/wanted to make sure – pick whichever fits best with you) as that was the only way to be sure that a Uchiha coup could never, ever, happen again. Itachi, however, spared Sasuke more because of his brotherly love than for his innocence (in my opinion). But the flashback also doesn't suggest discrimination. For example, why did the idea that the Uchiha had been discriminated against come as such a shock to Sasuke when he was told? Surely, out of everyone, a Uchiha would have felt this discrimination? Itachi's father wanted him to be a good connection so that he could work as a spy. There was nothing to suggest that Itachi's father ever wanted Itachi to mediate any form of truce/improvement of rights with the village.

On a side topic – but something quite amusing – Outside of Tobi's speech to Sasuke, how many times has it been suggested (by others) that the Uchihas were plotting a coup? I'd laugh if the reason they were exterminated was a separate reason all together, and that the Uchiha were never plotting at all (that would also be a serious mind f**k).

Also, we seem to have gone SERIOUSLY off topic here. Is there another thread we can move this to Rikudo King?

[Rikudou King]

Let's move it to the Hangout Thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/74274-Naruto-Hangout-Thread-v.12?p=2891936&viewfull=1#post2891936) then.

[ashher]

I was wondering... Wouldn't it be less life-costing and clan-wiping out to have Itachi appointed as the fifth Hokage? The third had already stepped down once before in favor of Minato. Itachi was certainly very loyal to the village and a move like that would have halted any attempts of coup d'etat from the Uchiha, since one of their own was the head of the village. Aside from obvious plot reasons -which actually are the most probable cause- there could have been two other reasons (that I can think of):

1) Itachi wasn't considered strong enough. And so Minato was indeed that awesome (no irony intended).
2) The rest of the village were indeed shunning the Uchiha and they were not going to give the Hokage title to any Uchiha, ever.

What are your thoughts? Can you think of any other reasons?

You are right that was the perfect solution. i think itachi was just too young.

1.sure minato was awesome...and may be more than itachi(matter of debate). but appointing itachi would've been different than other case of hokage appointment. it'd have been a diplomatic move, not merely the usual way of choosing hokage. so this is something that shouldn't have proved too difficult to overlook.

2.had it been that case, there has been little to no indication of such in the manga. it seemed only like the policy of roots and some higher ups to corner uchihas. the academy didn't show any discrimination,even they were proud to teach uchiha kids as apparent from the flashbacks. even the higher ups didn't dare corner uchihas publicly, rather they had to give uchihas the role of police so it seemed honorable to all. all i'm saying is that they couldn't show outright contempt to uchihas, that means uchihas mustn't have been that unpopular.

so the only problem i see is that itachi was too young. perhaps sarutobi should've strike a secret deal with uchiha clan that after five or so years he would appoint itachi, and in return uchihas will postpone their coup to give sarutobi a chance that what he promised was true.

[zimbardo]

But if Itachi (or another Uchiha) was appointed for the sole reason to stop a coup, then the Uchiha may have taken the chance following this to actually actively suppress others. I say 'may' because they might not have, however appointing someone from a clan that is actively threatening violence if they do not get their way is quite a risky move. It also states quite clearly that "we will back down and relinquish power to anyone who desires to perform an armed revolt against us - no matter what reason they are revolting." This would make the Konoha leadership look incredibly fragile and weak, and would be a red flag to a bull for the other Kage's/enemies of Konoha.
If a Uchiha was to be made Hokage, then they should be made Hokage for the right reasons - NOT just for the sole reason of the Uchihas threatening violence otherwise.
If the Uchiha could have gained the title of Hokage amongst their clan by this method, why shouldn't the Hyuuga, or the Akimichi, or the Aburame, or any other clan for that matter threaten violence and demand to rule the village? Would they deserve the title of Hokage, just because otherwise there may be a civil war?

-edit-
As an example of what I mean, using a real world example: What if all the Catholics, or all the supporters of the Green party, in England wanted a Catholic/Green party member to be prime minister of the UK, and they threatened a civil war/violence if they didn't get their way. Should the UK government just allocate a Catholic/GPM to the role of Primeminister just to stop this potential violence?
Obviously they shouldn't Slaughter all the Catholics or supporters of the Green Party, but you see how ridiculous allocating someone to the top leadership position in your country (the land of fire/the UK) just because they threaten violence is.

[Zehahaha]

Except that Itachi/Shisui had the skills and talent. And Shisui had (if we take Itachi's words) the same ideals as Naruto, he believed in the will of fire, the way Itachi spoke about Shisui, to me it looked like the guy was really the best Hokage candidate at the time, but instead of that, Konoha " wasted " that talented guy for nothing, go figure that...

[zimbardo]

We have no idea at what level Shisui's talent and skills actually reached. We know he was skillful, and his genjutsu was incredible - but neither of these feats enable us to measure his talents against Minato (the Hokage chosen instead). Danzou wasted that talented guy for nothing. He also wasted the talent in the Uchiha clan for nothing as well, in my opinion, by having them all terminated.
Yes Itachi and Shisui likely had the talent (perhaps not Itachi at the time - considering how young he was when Minato was chosen), but that doesn't mean that they were any better than Minato. You choose the best suited as your Hokage, even if numerous other acceptable choices are there. Fact is, we have no accurate way to measure Shisui's skills (or any other Uchiha of that time) against Minato's, or Hiruzen's, or Tobirama's for that matter.

[silver_soul]

Maybe Kishimoto did overlook that possibility because, I imagine if he had thought of it, it would've been in the form of a suggestion from Hiruzen as we saw, during the incident, Kishimoto did try to make Hiruzen look like a reluctant participant in the plan as he tried to find a diplomatic solution.

Although, I think that if it had been considered in the story, the idea would've been shot down by the the 3rd's advisors, that old dude and lady, as preposterous for reasons related to 'mistrust'. Although Itachi was willing to do so much for peace, the leaders did not view his dedication to the cause as a credential for leadership, instead, as Madara said, they only took advantage of it. Add Itachi's youth to the mix and it's not easy to see how maybe, he could've been manipulated/taken advantage of.

[Zehahaha]

We have no idea at what level Shisui's talent and skills actually reached. We know he was skillful, and his genjutsu was incredible - but neither of these feats enable us to measure his talents against Minato (the Hokage chosen instead). Danzou wasted that talented guy for nothing. He also wasted the talent in the Uchiha clan for nothing as well, in my opinion, by having them all terminated.
Yes Itachi and Shisui likely had the talent (perhaps not Itachi at the time - considering how young he was when Minato was chosen), but that doesn't mean that they were any better than Minato. You choose the best suited as your Hokage, even if numerous other acceptable choices are there. Fact is, we have no accurate way to measure Shisui's skills (or any other Uchiha of that time) against Minato's, or Hiruzen's, or Tobirama's for that matter.

Minato was already dead, and we had an old Hiruzen way past his prime... So yeah.
If Konoha had to choose a Hokage based on the past Hokage's performance, I doubt Tsunade, or Kakashi, would be choosen for that.

Definition : Kage is the best ninja of his village at the " time ", meaning they don't compare between the Kages, but they take the best, meaning he could be stronger than his predecessors or maybe weaker.

[zimbardo]

Definition : Kage is the best ninja of his village at the " time ", meaning they don't compare between the Kages, but they take the best, meaning he could be stronger than his predecessors or maybe weaker.

Definition: You believe that Shisui/Itachi was better suited for Hokageship than Hiruzen even if he was past his prime. You have no evidence to suggest as much, other than rumors of Shisui's strength, and examples of Itachi's long after he had joined Akatsuki and left the village.

[Zehahaha]

Definition: You believe that Shisui/Itachi was better suited for Hokageship than Hiruzen even if he was past his prime. You have no evidence to suggest as much, other than rumors of Shisui's strength, and examples of Itachi's long after he had joined Akatsuki and left the village.

What I'm saying is those two HAD the potential, no not even that, they're Kage materials. If they weren't wasted, they would've certainly became Kage in like 2-3 years for sure.

Shisui certainly didn't kill anyone to get his MS since Itachi was his best friend, that alone speaks about him. He was extremely well known, and anybody wanted his powers for himself, even Bee said that Shisui was known to be the strongest Genjutsu user in the Uchiha and so far, his Genjutsu is still unparalleled. I have no doubts that back at the time, Shisui would make a good Kage or a future Kage in the short term. Instead they choose to keep old Hiruzen in the post.

And yes I believe that especially Shisui was suited for that task, especially the way Itachi talked about him.

[matsemann08]

Is it weird that today is the first time I've ever thought: "The Godaime Hokage sound kinda like the god damn Hokage"

[Delbi]

Definition: You believe that Shisui/Itachi was better suited for Hokageship than Hiruzen even if he was past his prime. You have no evidence to suggest as much, other than rumors of Shisui's strength, and examples of Itachi's long after he had joined Akatsuki and left the village.

With his MS Itachi at 15 was more powerful than Hiruzen. Not to mention, Hiruzen had made loads of mistakes that no other Hokage in the history of Konoha had made. Allowing Orochimaru to escape and allowing the Uchiha massacre to happen are just two if his big fuck ups. And while Itachi made mistakes of his own, there is no reason to say Itachi wasn't strong or wise enough to lead.

A big reason for him not being made Hokage aside from maybe his age was his position in ANBU at the time as a sleeper cell double agent. He was needed for other things other than being Hokage.

IMO, if Hiruzen had did his job and simply smoothed out the Uchiha problem, or even killed the leaders, it's possible that afterwards a compromise could have been made to make Itachi Hokage. Granted, Hiruzen would of had to grow some balls to do this while simultaneously making sure Danzou was put in his place but it could have been possible.

[M3J]

How was Shisui suited to the task? Or Itachi? From the looks of it, Shisui may not have had the hardness needed to make tough decisions, like Hiruzen when he spared Orochimaru. Itachi might be too sacrificial, offering to do difficult missions because he thinks others can't do it.

Besides, it's not just about the power. As we read, it's also about who's well known. Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi, etc were well known within Konoha and out of Konoha. Itachi I don't think was, although Shisui most likely was at the time. Was Shisui better than Hiruzen? What about Itachi? Did they know about the world and jutsu as much as Hiruzen did?

It's not just about power. There are many other criteria to be considered. Without the well-known name, the hokage may not hve enough respect from enemies to prevent them from attacking even if they are powerful. Power means nothing if the hokage doesn't have tons of knowledge. There probably also is an attribute that helps one get hokage, like Minato knowing seals and being married to Kushina, Hashirama bein able to control bijuu, and etc.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Let's not forget that Itachi was 13 years old at the time, and that Konoha, opposed to Suna, had way better candidates in reputation to elect as a Hokage, Jiraiya and Tsunade.And Gaara was still 16 when he was elected.
Itachi was pretty much known to the other villages as just another Uchiha, so them appointing him would've been seen as an act of weakness, and thus encouraged an attack. He became notorious after slaughtering his clan

[kkck]

The way I see it, the mere fact that shisui had his mind controlling eye genjutsu would be a reason for not having him as kage. Who would ever trust him when all it takes is a glance for him to beyond brain wash anyone? Which of the other kage would ever agree to meet with him? Which village would trust their kage if they suddenly agree with something konoha does? Its not like shusui's technique was secret either, the guy from the mist village knew all to much about it. Even if we assume shisui was infinitely talented, powerful and had the diplomatic skills for the task, does anyone want someone with his skills on a position of power? Other leaders would be wary of meeting him, he could also just brainwash those within the leaf that do not agree with him. Diplomacy would be altogether impossible with him as leader if the others do not want to meet with him. What we should be wondering is why shisui killed himself before brainwashing fugaku and a few others into making a shred of sense.

Now, there is also the consideration that the uchiha were not discriminated just because, there is more to the whole thing. Ever since the second kage the higher ups in the village distrusted the uchiha, they questioned their loyalty to the village and thought they might start a war. Konoha is an union of many clans, not just the senju and the uchiha. They believed the uchiha to be powerhungry which is altogether a quality you DO NOT want in the leader of a militaristic organization.

The hokage is not just arbitrarily chosen, one is selected by the council (which is made up by the feudal lord, advisers and if shikaku's presence there means anything important clan leaders or whatnot) and the selected one is then approved by the village. When madara faced hashirama, the chosen hokage, he was plainly ignoring the will of the village as a whole he was by no means just fighting against the senju. Even if madara genuinely thought that it does not change that hashirama got there not only because the senju approved but because so did most of the other clans. Madara attempting to force his way into the kage seat or the uchiha planning a coup is actual treason, no less.

[Delbi]

How was Shisui suited to the task? Or Itachi? From the looks of it, Shisui may not have had the hardness needed to make tough decisions, like Hiruzen when he spared Orochimaru. Itachi might be too sacrificial, offering to do difficult missions because he thinks others can't do it.

Besides, it's not just about the power. As we read, it's also about who's well known. Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi, etc were well known within Konoha and out of Konoha. Itachi I don't think was, although Shisui most likely was at the time. Was Shisui better than Hiruzen? What about Itachi? Did they know about the world and jutsu as much as Hiruzen did?

It's not just about power. There are many other criteria to be considered. Without the well-known name, the hokage may not hve enough respect from enemies to prevent them from attacking even if they are powerful. Power means nothing if the hokage doesn't have tons of knowledge. There probably also is an attribute that helps one get hokage, like Minato knowing seals and being married to Kushina, Hashirama bein able to control bijuu, and etc.

Itachi was well known though, he was the prodigy of the Uchiha clan, literally the strongest there was.

As for not knowing a lot about the world, that isn't always needed. Hiruzen was appointed Hokage on the battlefield at Itachi's age. Gaara was even younger. And by the looks of things the 3rd Mizukage wasn't that old when he took power. There is a reason why their are elders to help the Hokage.

IMO without knowing enough about Shusui I can't say if he would be able to be Hokage or not, but I certainly think Itachi would be. He was strong enough, smart enough, and knew right from wrong and how do deal with things. You say he may be too sacrificial, but I think his intelligence and reason wouldn't make it so he was making bad decisions with the help of his advisers.

Itachi, had the power and means to protect Konoha from quiet a bit. He has Shusui's Sharigan (if Shusui did die) He can use Izamai, and in a one on one fight with anyone powerful (like Orochimaru or Pain) he had the abilities and items (Sword and Shield) to get the job done.

As for his renown, he was the prodigal son of one of the greatest clans in the world. Not to mention, he achieved the fearsome MS. I don't think for a second anyone wouldn't respect and outright fear him. And here is something to think about. Sasuke would have still idolized him, it's extremely possible he would have wanted to give his brother his eyes so he could attain EMS. And if Tsuande was in the village, Itachi's sickness could have been taken care of. So yea, while those are big ifs (this whole subject is a big if), you would have Itachi in a great position to rule.

[hyper_megaman]

Hypothetical:

Al Qaeda is planning to bomb the white house and take over the US.

One of Al Qaeda's members, for whatever reasons (peace loving, ambition to take over senior's position, etc) acts as an informant and passes that plan along to CIA in conjunction with the president. We shall call him "Person X".

Knowing they would be affected greatly by this attack and being unsure if they can prevent it from happening, CIA tries to negotiate with Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda refuses to stop their plans.

CIA then goes for plan B: wiping out Al Qaeda before they can carry out the plan.

The first person they approach is Person X. Why Person X?
- This wouldn't endanger their own CIA agents, people of confirmed loyalty, unnecessarily
- You use one of Al Qaeda to wipe itself out from within and do nothing but provide orders
- You don't even know if Person X is truly sworn to your cause. In case he's just a double agent, sending anyone else in there with his knowledge would just be sending them into the lion's jaw.
- In this regard, this keeps Person X separate from their other backup plans to combat Al Qaeda and/or attempt to prevent said attack from happening. Person X himself is Plan B, and they can have other contingency plans such as C, D, E that cover the possibility of fighting Al Qaeda entirely including Person X (the possible double agent).

In short, having Person X be that one single person to destroy Al Qaeda from within is a 'nothing to lose' tactic. It does not mean they especially trusted Person X to be totally loyal. In stark contrast, it's actually because of mistrust for Person X that makes this Plan B so perfect, you lose nothing at all whether this plan fails or succeeds!

Why on earth would you get rid of the current standing US president and let Person X, a person of ambiguous connection to Al Qaeda, be president in his stead?




A lot of this theory is based on retrospective hindsight.

NOW, today, we know Itachi is fiercely loyal to Konoha without fail.

Back then, during the Uchiha's planning stage, Itachi's allegience was ambiguous.

Hell, none of us saw Itachi's loyalty until Kishi explained it explicitly, and we're neutral audiences. Now imagine what the ruling members of Konoha were thinking when they had their village on the line and had to err on the side of caution.

If any of us had the power of exercising judgment as accurately as it will seem in hindsight, we would be stock market billionaires. We wouldn't even need to finish reading Naruto, we would know exactly what would come next.

[Murdock]

eeeh 13 year old prodigy? well it doesn't seem like Konoha's style ... for god sakes he wasn't even adult and eligible to sing any documents :D

[M3J]

Itachi was well known though, he was the prodigy of the Uchiha clan, literally the strongest there was.
As far as we know, among Konoha. Not sure if he was known out of Konoha, but there has been no sign that he was known prior to the Uchiha Massacre.


As for not knowing a lot about the world, that isn't always needed. Hiruzen was appointed Hokage on the battlefield at Itachi's age. Gaara was even younger. And by the looks of things the 3rd Mizukage wasn't that old when he took power. There is a reason why their are elders to help the Hokage.
Where was it said Hiruzen was around Itachi's age? He looked much older. Gaara was powerful though, and the only good choice in the village. PLus, Suna probably selects hokage differently. Konoha still had plenty of other choices, unlike Suna.

Yeah, but the hokage still apparently makes a lot of decisions. Itachi is wise and smart, but the lack of infamy is what probably would hurt him here.


IMO without knowing enough about Shusui I can't say if he would be able to be Hokage or not, but I certainly think Itachi would be. He was strong enough, smart enough, and knew right from wrong and how do deal with things. You say he may be too sacrificial, but I think his intelligence and reason wouldn't make it so he was making bad decisions with the help of his advisers.
I think he'd have been hokage material as well, at least eventually if not at the time. But apparently it takes more than that, like how well-known the person is, and etc. Itachi may not have been as well known out of the village. There's also a likelihood that Itachi was talked about being hokage before the Massacre. Could as very well be Danzou putting his foot down because Itachi was an Uchiha, even resorting to his Sharingan.


Itachi, had the power and means to protect Konoha from quiet a bit. He has Shusui's Sharigan (if Shusui did die) He can use Izamai, and in a one on one fight with anyone powerful (like Orochimaru or Pain) he had the abilities and items (Sword and Shield) to get the job done.
Shisui's Sharingan was usable once per a decade. We dunno when Itachi got Izanami, and even if he could use it, still a bad idea as he'd lose an eye and be less effective as a kage. Against someone like Raikage, Susano'o wouldn't be as useful. Probably so if Raikae didn't know about the Sword, which Orochimaru himself didn't despite seekin the sword.


As for his renown, he was the prodigal son of one of the greatest clans in the world. Not to mention, he achieved the fearsome MS. I don't think for a second anyone wouldn't respect and outright fear him. And here is something to think about. Sasuke would have still idolized him, it's extremely possible he would have wanted to give his brother his eyes so he could attain EMS. And if Tsuande was in the village, Itachi's sickness could have been taken care of. So yea, while those are big ifs (this whole subject is a big if), you would have Itachi in a great position to rule.

What about his reputation outside the village? Tsuchikage indicated that Gaara wasn't as respected as he was still young and if I recall, not as well known. Itachi doesn't appear to be famous out of hte village like Kakashi and Jiraiya were. Even minato was well known for Hiraishin, if nothing else. Every hokage chosen were known out of their village, except for maybe Danzou. We don't even know if Itahci was known out of Konoha at the time.

[Delbi]

Hypothetical:

Al Qaeda is planning to bomb the white house and take over the US.

One of Al Qaeda's members, for whatever reasons (peace loving, ambition to take over senior's position, etc) acts as an informant and passes that plan along to CIA in conjunction with the president. We shall call him "Person X".

Knowing they would be affected greatly by this attack and being unsure if they can prevent it from happening, CIA tries to negotiate with Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda refuses to stop their plans.

CIA then goes for plan B: wiping out Al Qaeda before they can carry out the plan.

The first person they approach is Person X. Why Person X?
- This wouldn't endanger their own CIA agents, people of confirmed loyalty, unnecessarily
- You use one of Al Qaeda to wipe itself out from within and do nothing but provide orders
- You don't even know if Person X is truly sworn to your cause. In case he's just a double agent, sending anyone else in there with his knowledge would just be sending them into the lion's jaw.
- In this regard, this keeps Person X separate from their other backup plans to combat Al Qaeda and/or attempt to prevent said attack from happening. Person X himself is Plan B, and they can have other contingency plans such as C, D, E that cover the possibility of fighting Al Qaeda entirely including Person X (the possible double agent).

In short, having Person X be that one single person to destroy Al Qaeda from within is a 'nothing to lose' tactic. It does not mean they especially trusted Person X to be totally loyal. In stark contrast, it's actually because of mistrust for Person X that makes this Plan B so perfect, you lose nothing at all whether this plan fails or succeeds!

Why on earth would you get rid of the current standing US president and let Person X, a person of ambiguous connection to Al Qaeda, be president in his stead?




A lot of this theory is based on retrospective hindsight.

NOW, today, we know Itachi is fiercely loyal to Konoha without fail.

Back then, during the Uchiha's planning stage, Itachi's allegience was ambiguous.

Hell, none of us saw Itachi's loyalty until Kishi explained it explicitly, and we're neutral audiences. Now imagine what the ruling members of Konoha were thinking when they had their village on the line and had to err on the side of caution.

If any of us had the power of exercising judgment as accurately as it will seem in hindsight, we would be stock market billionaires. We wouldn't even need to finish reading Naruto, we would know exactly what would come next.

This is a terrible example. Like literally the worst you could use.

The Uchiha clan was PART OF KONOHA. Al Qaeda isn't even associated with any country, it's a terrorist organization.

The Uchiha clan was one of the two founder members of Konoha. They made up the entire military police of Konoha, and were a huge part of the village. The entire clan was destroyed save Sasuke. Men, women, children, the elderly, all killed. Did they all need to die?

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------


eeeh 13 year old prodigy? well it doesn't seem like Konoha's style ... for god sakes he wasn't even adult and eligible to sing any documents :D

Itachi was 13 when he joined ANBU, I was under the impression he killed everyone and left the village at 15 but I could be wrong.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 PM ----------


As far as we know, among Konoha. Not sure if he was known out of Konoha, but there has been no sign that he was known prior to the Uchiha Massacre.

Honestly I fail to see how his renown outside of the village matters. Once it's known he is a prodigal Uchiha with MS he'd recieve all the respect and fear he'd need. That line alone makes him more fearsome than half of the Kages there have ever been.



Where was it said Hiruzen was around Itachi's age? He looked much older. Gaara was powerful though, and the only good choice in the village. PLus, Suna probably selects hokage differently. Konoha still had plenty of other choices, unlike Suna.

I was under the impression that Itachi was 15 when he left the village. Hiruzen didn't look any older than MAYBE 17 or 18 so Itachi was around the same age.



Yeah, but the hokage still apparently makes a lot of decisions. Itachi is wise and smart, but the lack of infamy is what probably would hurt him here.

Infamy has no baring on decision making. Itachi has proved that he was smarter than 99% of people on the planet as he had enacted plans that still worked after his death. I don't think he'd have any problems making decisions.



I think he'd have been hokage material as well, at least eventually if not at the time. But apparently it takes more than that, like how well-known the person is, and etc. Itachi may not have been as well known out of the village. There's also a likelihood that Itachi was talked about being hokage before the Massacre. Could as very well be Danzou putting his foot down because Itachi was an Uchiha, even resorting to his Sharingan.

Possible, but on the one hand we have the crypt keeper Kages like Hiruzen and Oonoki who have made terrible decisions, and due to their age couldn't keep up in some aspects. IMO, Hiruzen has got lucky while fighting Orochimaru and Oonoki needed Naruto and Gaara to help him grow back his balls. Itachi would have never had this problem, and he is strong enough to face nearly any threat the manga could throw at him.




Shisui's Sharingan was usable once per a decade. We dunno when Itachi got Izanami, and even if he could use it, still a bad idea as he'd lose an eye and be less effective as a kage. Against someone like Raikage, Susano'o wouldn't be as useful. Probably so if Raikae didn't know about the Sword, which Orochimaru himself didn't despite seekin the sword.

Even still he still had the capabilities. When would Itachi have to use Shisui's Sharigan? The only instance that comes up would be the Pain invasion or the Kage Summit. He was strong enough to defeat Orochimaru, Danzou, and nearly everyone out there that was a threat to Konoha by the time he was in his late teens/early twenties. At 15 he was probably the strongest person in the village, if not the very least tied with Hiruzen who'd he surpass in like a year at most.



What about his reputation outside the village? Tsuchikage indicated that Gaara wasn't as respected as he was still young and if I recall, not as well known. Itachi doesn't appear to be famous out of hte village like Kakashi and Jiraiya were. Even minato was well known for Hiraishin, if nothing else. Every hokage chosen were known out of their village, except for maybe Danzou. We don't even know if Itahci was known out of Konoha at the time.

And again, what does that matter? Anyone who doubted Itachi would need to have but one conversation with the man to realize how much they should fear and respect him. His wisdom is light years ahead of where it should be, and lets not even talk about his raw intelligence.

If people underestimated Itachi all the better, he is a ninja after all that would play to his hand. Those in Konoha would know how smart, skilled and wise he is and that is what matters most.

---------- Post added at 07:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------


eeeh 13 year old prodigy? well it doesn't seem like Konoha's style ... for god sakes he wasn't even adult and eligible to sing any documents :D

This is Konoha not our world. Naruto and Sasuke were old enough to live on their own without any parental supervision, and children are apparently eligible for combat at the age of 5 which is when Itachi became a Chunnin.

[M3J]

Reputation outside the village apparently matters since if the kage isn't as fearsome, it could encourage enemies to go after them. Had Minato still been alive, maybe there wouldn't have been an invasion on Konoha led by Orochimaru or aided by Suna because Minato would been more than a match for Orochimaru. Orochimaru would have likely waited to gain the power to stand against Konoha. But because Hiruzen was old, and known to not be as powerful as he once was, Orochimaru took him on.

If Itachi was relatively unknown, then that'd still encourage enemies to attack as they'd wonder why a young, unknown kid was chosen out of many other choices like Kakashi and Jiraiya. Because they underestimate Itachi and don't think he's worth much, they'd likely attack Konoha and attempt to get rid of an enemy.

Of course, I'm deducing all this based on what the people at the meeting for the next hokage said when Danzou was voted, and I think what the village elders said when they wnated Jiraiya to become a hokage.

[hyper_megaman]

This is a terrible example. Like literally the worst you could use.

The Uchiha clan was PART OF KONOHA. Al Qaeda isn't even associated with any country, it's a terrorist organization.

The Uchiha clan was one of the two founder members of Konoha. They made up the entire military police of Konoha, and were a huge part of the village. The entire clan was destroyed save Sasuke. Men, women, children, the elderly, all killed. Did they all need to die?



Is it really the worst example?

Your response is based on:
1) modern humanitarian views established mainly in today's peaceful environment
2) further information based on hindsight that the village heads didn't have when the decision was made
3) your position as a neutral bystander without a village on the line and having to err on the side of caution

Like I said, the moment their to-be mutiny was uncovered, they were enemies. Why does it matter if you think they're founders? Konoha has to keep running regardless of their historical connection.




Let's discuss the relationship between Uchiha and Konoha at the relevant time.

To start off, the Uchiha were always run independent of the village. They did whatever they did without much village interference. Similarly, the village ran itself without Uchiha intervention.

At the point of mutiny, they already had vastly differing views, it did not matter if they were once closely linked together (founder relationship). The mutiny itself is evidence of their differing views to begin with.

It's not surprising the ostracisation occurred the moment their plan was uncovered.

The moment they were ostracised, they were the equivalent of a terrorist clan.

Why on earth would you give the position of kage to someone from this rival family of vastly differing political views, that you knew was planning to destroy you and your political views, and knowing that the someone has ambiguous allegience to begin with.


This is not a strategic move.





And I think your argument of 'killing children and women' is axiomatically rejected. This is a ninja world of utilitarianism, which is what Kishi established from the very start. They'd kill your unborn children if they had to, for the sake of conducting scientific experiments to increase the power of their ninjas.

[Rikudou King]

Hypothetical:

Al Qaeda is planning to bomb the white house and take over the US.

One of Al Qaeda's members, for whatever reasons (peace loving, ambition to take over senior's position, etc) acts as an informant and passes that plan along to CIA in conjunction with the president. We shall call him "Person X".

Knowing they would be affected greatly by this attack and being unsure if they can prevent it from happening, CIA tries to negotiate with Al Qaeda, but Al Qaeda refuses to stop their plans.

CIA then goes for plan B: wiping out Al Qaeda before they can carry out the plan.

The first person they approach is Person X. Why Person X?
- This wouldn't endanger their own CIA agents, people of confirmed loyalty, unnecessarily
- You use one of Al Qaeda to wipe itself out from within and do nothing but provide orders
- You don't even know if Person X is truly sworn to your cause. In case he's just a double agent, sending anyone else in there with his knowledge would just be sending them into the lion's jaw.
- In this regard, this keeps Person X separate from their other backup plans to combat Al Qaeda and/or attempt to prevent said attack from happening. Person X himself is Plan B, and they can have other contingency plans such as C, D, E that cover the possibility of fighting Al Qaeda entirely including Person X (the possible double agent).

In short, having Person X be that one single person to destroy Al Qaeda from within is a 'nothing to lose' tactic. It does not mean they especially trusted Person X to be totally loyal. In stark contrast, it's actually because of mistrust for Person X that makes this Plan B so perfect, you lose nothing at all whether this plan fails or succeeds!

Why on earth would you get rid of the current standing US president and let Person X, a person of ambiguous connection to Al Qaeda, be president in his stead?




A lot of this theory is based on retrospective hindsight.

NOW, today, we know Itachi is fiercely loyal to Konoha without fail.

Back then, during the Uchiha's planning stage, Itachi's allegience was ambiguous.

Hell, none of us saw Itachi's loyalty until Kishi explained it explicitly, and we're neutral audiences. Now imagine what the ruling members of Konoha were thinking when they had their village on the line and had to err on the side of caution.

If any of us had the power of exercising judgment as accurately as it will seem in hindsight, we would be stock market billionaires. We wouldn't even need to finish reading Naruto, we would know exactly what would come next. That example doesn't work. First of all, the Uchiha clan would be more comparable to a group like the FBI or CIA, not something like Al Qaeda. The Uchiha clan had a present and role in the safety of the village. Secondly, only Sarutobi attempted to negotiate. Danzo and the others didn't believe there was a need to. And thirdly, Itachi's loyalty was known. That's the whole reason they made him an Anbu, the personal force of the Hokage. Not to mention the implication that Shisui was also spying upon their clan.

Apart from that, if they doubted his loyalty, then depending solely on him to handle his clan made no sense since that would mean trusting him to actually go through with it and not merely alert them to attack before Konoha can stop them.


Reputation outside the village apparently matters since if the kage isn't as fearsome, it could encourage enemies to go after them. Had Minato still been alive, maybe there wouldn't have been an invasion on Konoha led by Orochimaru or aided by Suna because Minato would been more than a match for Orochimaru. Orochimaru would have likely waited to gain the power to stand against Konoha. But because Hiruzen was old, and known to not be as powerful as he once was, Orochimaru took him on.

If Itachi was relatively unknown, then that'd still encourage enemies to attack as they'd wonder why a young, unknown kid was chosen out of many other choices like Kakashi and Jiraiya. Because they underestimate Itachi and don't think he's worth much, they'd likely attack Konoha and attempt to get rid of an enemy.

Of course, I'm deducing all this based on what the people at the meeting for the next hokage said when Danzou was voted, and I think what the village elders said when they wnated Jiraiya to become a hokage. I think, that even if his feats weren't well-known, the very fact that he was an Uchiha would have still given him a fearsome reputation, as we've seen with Sasuke. We've seen several times Sasuke being praised due to being an Uchiha, despite him not being a ninja for long. Since Itachi actually had more missions under his name, I would think that he would have his own reputation on top of that of his clan.


Let's discuss the relationship between Uchiha and Konoha at the relevant time.

To start off, the Uchiha were always run independent of the village. They did whatever they did without much village interference. Similarly, the village ran itself without Uchiha intervention.

At the point of mutiny, they already had vastly differing views, it did not matter if they were once closely linked together (founder relationship). The mutiny itself is evidence of their differing views to begin with.

It's not surprising the ostracisation occurred the moment their plan was uncovered.

The moment they were ostracised, they were the equivalent of a terrorist clan.

Why on earth would you give the position of kage to someone from this rival family of vastly differing political views, that you knew was planning to destroy you and your political views, and knowing that the someone has ambiguous allegience to begin with.


This is not a strategic move.


And I think your argument of 'killing children and women' is axiomatically rejected. This is a ninja world of utilitarianism, which is what Kishi established from the very start. They'd kill your unborn children if they had to, for the sake of conducting scientific experiments to increase the power of their ninjas. Independent? Where did you get that idea from? The Uchiha clan was Konoha's acting police force, they dealt with everything but the highest level of crimes. There was no "vastly different" views. And they were ostracize before the coup was even known. That's the whole reason why they decided to attempt the coup in the first place, because they were being faulted for just being an Uchiha.

And actually no, killing children actually was shown frowned upon. Kiri's graduation test and Danzo's action with his Root ninjas were both considered wrong. I suppose women and the elderly could be questionable, but given the example with the children, doesn't seem likely to be different.

[M3J]

Sasuke has also proven why he deserves to be praised. Even Bee admitted he was being challenged, and Raikage was shocked at Sasuke being able to do a raiton similar to Kakashi's. Itachi may have Uchiha's name, but he'd have to prove why he should be feared as a prodigal Uchiha. Even Uchiha had some bad ninjas like Obito that wasn't kage material, I doubt enemies would just start praising Itachi. They'd be wary of him, but not really think of him as fearsome until he proved it. Even then, they'd still try to attack Konoha or Itachi as they had ways to fight an Uchiha. Outnumber an Uchiha, so if Itachi was outnumbered he might be in trouble.

[Delbi]

Is it really the worst example?

Your response is based on:
1) modern humanitarian views established mainly in today's peaceful environment
2) further information based on hindsight that the village heads didn't have when the decision was made
3) your position as a neutral bystander without a village on the line and having to err on the side of caution

Like I said, the moment their to-be mutiny was uncovered, they were enemies. Why does it matter if you think they're founders? Konoha has to keep running regardless of their historical connection.




Let's discuss the relationship between Uchiha and Konoha at the relevant time.

To start off, the Uchiha were always run independent of the village. They did whatever they did without much village interference. Similarly, the village ran itself without Uchiha intervention.

At the point of mutiny, they already had vastly differing views, it did not matter if they were once closely linked together (founder relationship). The mutiny itself is evidence of their differing views to begin with.

It's not surprising the ostracisation occurred the moment their plan was uncovered.

The moment they were ostracised, they were the equivalent of a terrorist clan.

Why on earth would you give the position of kage to someone from this rival family of vastly differing political views, that you knew was planning to destroy you and your political views, and knowing that the someone has ambiguous allegience to begin with.


This is not a strategic move.





And I think your argument of 'killing children and women' is axiomatically rejected. This is a ninja world of utilitarianism, which is what Kishi established from the very start. They'd kill your unborn children if they had to, for the sake of conducting scientific experiments to increase the power of their ninjas.'

It's an awful example because it's an awful example...you used Al Qaeda which is a group that is not associated with the United States. There is no real life equivalent to the Uchiha massacre because no country in human history (to my knowledge) has had to outright slaughter a group of it's own people (a group that had military power mind you) because they wanted to rebel. And no, revolutions don't count.

Not to mention, Al Qaeda "agents" are extremely difficult to find and negotiate with. The Uchiha clan wasn't in hiding by any means.

As for you're idea of strategy, I fully understand that. I also understand that you don't destroy your assets unless absolutely necessary. That diplomacy always first considered in all options before war, even the ninja's in this manga follow this philosophy.

And keep in mind the Uchiha were ostracized long before this coup took place according to Madara. the Coup was a response to that and the fact they felt threatened.

Now, as for why you don't wipe out a group of people who helped found your village, well you don't do it because you have other clans who could ask themselves "are we next"? There is a reason that Konoha put the blame on Itachi, because if the truth came out the village would have been in chaos. It amazes me that this was never touched on more, which could be the reason why so few people still know the truth about Itachi. Ninja in Konoha don't all have the same views, just look how Shikamaru thinks in regard to Sasuke, how Inochi thought about dealing with Nagato.

And you speak of installing Itachi as Hokage as if it was a bad move by putting someone with "ambiguous allegiance" and "vastly different political views" as a bad thing...

1) Itachi's allegiance was to Konoha, he killed off his entire family for his village so don't act like he didn't have allegiance to his village first and formost.

2) Hashirama, the 1st Hokage, had vastly different views than the Uchiha clan and yet they appointed him Hokage over their own leader Madara. Considering there was no Senju left in the village at the time, installing a peace loving Uchiha who would do anything for his village as Hokage might not be such a bad move.

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------


Reputation outside the village apparently matters since if the kage isn't as fearsome, it could encourage enemies to go after them. Had Minato still been alive, maybe there wouldn't have been an invasion on Konoha led by Orochimaru or aided by Suna because Minato would been more than a match for Orochimaru. Orochimaru would have likely waited to gain the power to stand against Konoha. But because Hiruzen was old, and known to not be as powerful as he once was, Orochimaru took him on.

If Itachi was relatively unknown, then that'd still encourage enemies to attack as they'd wonder why a young, unknown kid was chosen out of many other choices like Kakashi and Jiraiya. Because they underestimate Itachi and don't think he's worth much, they'd likely attack Konoha and attempt to get rid of an enemy.

Of course, I'm deducing all this based on what the people at the meeting for the next hokage said when Danzou was voted, and I think what the village elders said when they wnated Jiraiya to become a hokage.

Well just think of it this way. When they find out that Konoha's Hokage is a 13-15 year Uchiha, and its NOT Jiraiya, Kakashi or Danzou, don't you think people would think before they attacked Konoha, because it may be possible (and in this case fact) that he is stronger than all of them?

I can't remember the chapter, but it was in the Waves Country Arc I believe. Kakashi told Naruto "There are ninja younger than you, who are stronger than me". Age and renown don't mean all that much. Ninja know not to underestimate their opponents, and when you throw around words like "prodigy of the Uchiha" and "Mangekyo Sharigan" and "once in a generation power" with Itachi's name, and then add in the fact he was put into power over these other well known ninja, you'd have to think he is powerful and it wouldn't be prudent to attack Konoha. Or at least that is how I think.

[M3J]

If that was true, would they still respect Itachi as a hokage? Being too young and not as well known, other kage may not take him or his words seriously because they'd assume he isn't experienced or wise enough. Itachi would still be underestimated in some way, at least before he met any of the leaders out of the village.

Even if not, the other village would wonder and assume that Konoha isn't in as good a shape because they have a kid who's not old enough to drink sake as their hokage. Wouldn't you assume Konoha lacks good ninja if they chose a kid to be a hokage? Itachi would have to prove himself first, like Minato and Hashirama did before they became hokage. They were known as some of the best ninja and powerful, as well as wise, so the other villages were likely to listen to them adn respectd their power. Itachi being an unknown, the other villages won't be as respectful and might even try to attack Konoha. Despite Hiruzen being known as one of the strongest kage or hokage, it didn't prevent the third World War or even second. Even with Tobirama and Hiruzen fighting, Konoha was still in a war.

[Rikudou King]

Well given the number of missions Itachi had completed, I would think he would have proven what a threat he was to the other villages, especially given the young age he achieved them at. We know at the very least Kumo knew how dangerous he was, though where their knowledge fitted into the timeline of events is unknown. And I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe that one of the things Kakashi was known for was his involvement in Anbu. While not exactly the prefect example, I doubt Gaara would have been any more well known. The same with Mei, considering Kiri's isolationist stance.

[Delbi]

If that was true, would they still respect Itachi as a hokage? Being too young and not as well known, other kage may not take him or his words seriously because they'd assume he isn't experienced or wise enough. Itachi would still be underestimated in some way, at least before he met any of the leaders out of the village.

Even if not, the other village would wonder and assume that Konoha isn't in as good a shape because they have a kid who's not old enough to drink sake as their hokage. Wouldn't you assume Konoha lacks good ninja if they chose a kid to be a hokage? Itachi would have to prove himself first, like Minato and Hashirama did before they became hokage. They were known as some of the best ninja and powerful, as well as wise, so the other villages were likely to listen to them adn respectd their power. Itachi being an unknown, the other villages won't be as respectful and might even try to attack Konoha. Despite Hiruzen being known as one of the strongest kage or hokage, it didn't prevent the third World War or even second. Even with Tobirama and Hiruzen fighting, Konoha was still in a war.

So what, Itachi would have to kill people publicly to become a Hokage? Gaara and Mei didn't make a name for themselves fighting in wars and yet they were appointed to he Kage position (mostly because they were needed as they were the most powerful ninja in their respective villages).

At the time of Itachi's hypothetical appointment, Konoha was considered the strongest ninja village there was. There's a reason they have never lost a war, and have all these famous shinobi. I say again, if Itachi is made Hokage over Jiraiya, Tsuande, Danzou and Kakashi, it speaks volumes for how powerful he must be. If I was from another village I'd be asking myself "what the hell can he be capable of that he's seen as superior to all of them?".

[Uchiha_Blood]

Well given the number of missions Itachi had completed, I would think he would have proven what a threat he was to the other villages, especially given the young age he achieved them at. We know at the very least Kumo knew how dangerous he was, though where their knowledge fitted into the timeline of events is unknown. And I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe that one of the things Kakashi was known for was his involvement in Anbu. While not exactly the prefect example, I doubt Gaara would have been any more well known. The same with Mei, considering Kiri's isolationist stance.

If I remember right, Neji has more high ranking missions that Itachi does, so I don't think that Itachi was well known.
As for Mei, she won the civil war against Yagura controlled by Madara, apparently, and Gaara was a well known Jinchuuriki of Shukaku.
In a desert.
They had a good reputation when they became Kages imho


So what, Itachi would have to kill people publicly to become a Hokage? Gaara and Mei didn't make a name for themselves fighting in wars and yet they were appointed to he Kage position (mostly because they were needed as they were the most powerful ninja in their respective villages).

At the time of Itachi's hypothetical appointment, Konoha was considered the strongest ninja village there was. There's a reason they have never lost a war, and have all these famous shinobi. I say again, if Itachi is made Hokage over Jiraiya, Tsuande, Danzou and Kakashi, it speaks volumes for how powerful he must be. If I was from another village I'd be asking myself "what the hell can he be capable of that he's seen as superior to all of them?".

If Konoha would appoint a 13 years old nobody over 2 Sannins and Kakashi, I believe the other nations would think that Hiruzen would have finally lost it and gone senile, hell Kakashi was appointed a Jounin at the same age, which is a higher grade than ANBU anyway.
Also at the time we don't know if Itachi was effectively stronger than the Sannins, Kakashi and Hiruzen.

[Rikudou King]

If I remember right, Neji has more high ranking missions that Itachi does, so I don't think that Itachi was well known.
As for Mei, she won the civil war against Yagura controlled by Madara, apparently, and Gaara was a well known Jinchuuriki of Shukaku.
In a desert.
They had a good reputation when they became Kages imho Why wouldn't Itachi be well-known, since all his missions were completed before he was 13 years old? Not to mention the whole Anbu Captain thing. And we were talking about reputations outside the village. None of the other villages knew of the situation with Yagura and I don't believe Gaara was a well-known Jinchuuriki.

[kkck]

Well, we have little to go on regarding how well known gaara or mei were before being made kage. Gaara strikes me as the sort that could make a name for himself quickly though. Son of a kage himself, a jinchuiriki and the ability to throw a desert at whoever he is fighting. Ultimately he was made the kage because he was the strongest in his village. No clue on what mei's heritage is but at least 2 KG are likely to make her well known and we have to assume that at least she was the strongest at the mist village.

Itachi might have been well known but even if he did have that going for him we do know for a fact that at least 2 other people were better candidates than him. How would sarutobi ever justify making itachi the kage if the other 2 sannin who had far more experience, better resumes and were insanely famous were still around? Its not like itachi was even a man, he was not even the age at which gaara was made kage. Itachi was 13, just that. Even with all his gifts there is no way to guarantee he would have gotten a shred of support from the jonnin if they could have easily concluded jiraiya and tsunade were infinitely better candidates. Its not like either of them were secret ninjas, jiraiya was feared throughout the land and his rants about the chosen one were even known by the current raikage.

There is also the consideration that by the time that such a consideration would have been made itachi did not yet have MS and even if we select a time at which he did there is no guarantee that he had mastered it due to the short time he would have had it for. Basically this would be a younger itachi without a huge chunk of experience and without his most powerful techniques. Itachi was strong however there is no actual logical (and not even illogical) good reasons to justify appointing itachi at the time as kage nor for the jonnin to vote for him.

Even making itachi the kage wouldn't necessarily have fix things. The whole point of the uchiha making a coup was to take power for themselves. It was not about grabbing their fare share of political power, it was about an actual takeover of a military organization. Itachi being made the hokage would entail that the uchiha would not have all the power for one thing. More so, the kage himself does not have absolutely authority, the advisors and danzo have proven to have their own share of actual authority which the kage has to respect. So how is making itachi the kage a solution? These guys were willing to start an all out civil war in the village and we are to assume they will settle with a fraction of the power rather than all of it? If they were to accept the kage thing, why have the 13 year old brat taking the kage position rather than the actual head of the clan which they were already following? What happens when itachi turns out to be doing the job the way he is supposed to be doing it when the uchiha expectation was that he would be turning more and more power towards them (we already know they were willing to start a war and die to get leadership in the village). Itachi might have had an impressive record for his age however it is not quite unheard of for ninja to become chunnin young nor perform difficult missions at such a young age. All the uchiha were elite ninja, for all we know plenty of people had his records (specially fugaku considering that he was too an elite ninja and was significantly older than itachi).

[M3J]

Look at the way Gaara was treated by Oonoki, though. Itachi could be treated like that as well, little to no respect at all. The kage may acknowledge him as powerful, but they won't show him as much respect considering how young Itachi would have been. Even Gaara wasn't that young when he became a kazekage, assuming he's the same age as Naruto. Plus, at the time, he was a jinchuuriki, which would have made him one of the most powerful.

Though to be fair, Gaara did gain more respect when he showed how wise he is.

[Delbi]

Look at the way Gaara was treated by Oonoki, though. Itachi could be treated like that as well, little to no respect at all. The kage may acknowledge him as powerful, but they won't show him as much respect considering how young Itachi would have been. Even Gaara wasn't that young when he became a kazekage, assuming he's the same age as Naruto. Plus, at the time, he was a jinchuuriki, which would have made him one of the most powerful.

Though to be fair, Gaara did gain more respect when he showed how wise he is.

IMO same would happen with Itachi. But realistically how often do the Kage's see one another? Up until Bee's introduction we had only even seen the Kages of two villages. At the Chunnin exams only two of the five great countries were present.

I honestly think too much stock is being put into what other villages think. A Kage is a Kage for a reason. First and foremost they need their villages respect, then they can worry about other kages. And again, like Gaara, once they meet him they would understand how he is. Itachi's mere presence commands respect, he literally strikes fear into all those around him.

[Rikudou King]

Well, we have little to go on regarding how well known gaara or mei were before being made kage. Gaara strikes me as the sort that could make a name for himself quickly though. Son of a kage himself, a jinchuiriki and the ability to throw a desert at whoever he is fighting. Ultimately he was made the kage because he was the strongest in his village. No clue on what mei's heritage is but at least 2 KG are likely to make her well known and we have to assume that at least she was the strongest at the mist village.

Itachi might have been well known but even if he did have that going for him we do know for a fact that at least 2 other people were better candidates than him. How would sarutobi ever justify making itachi the kage if the other 2 sannin who had far more experience, better resumes and were insanely famous were still around? Its not like itachi was even a man, he was not even the age at which gaara was made kage. Itachi was 13, just that. Even with all his gifts there is no way to guarantee he would have gotten a shred of support from the jonnin if they could have easily concluded jiraiya and tsunade were infinitely better candidates. Its not like either of them were secret ninjas, jiraiya was feared throughout the land and his rants about the chosen one were even known by the current raikage.

There is also the consideration that by the time that such a consideration would have been made itachi did not yet have MS and even if we select a time at which he did there is no guarantee that he had mastered it due to the short time he would have had it for. Basically this would be a younger itachi without a huge chunk of experience and without his most powerful techniques. Itachi was strong however there is no actual logical (and not even illogical) good reasons to justify appointing itachi at the time as kage nor for the jonnin to vote for him.

Even making itachi the kage wouldn't necessarily have fix things. The whole point of the uchiha making a coup was to take power for themselves. It was not about grabbing their fare share of political power, it was about an actual takeover of a military organization. Itachi being made the hokage would entail that the uchiha would not have all the power for one thing. More so, the kage himself does not have absolutely authority, the advisors and danzo have proven to have their own share of actual authority which the kage has to respect. So how is making itachi the kage a solution? These guys were willing to start an all out civil war in the village and we are to assume they will settle with a fraction of the power rather than all of it? If they were to accept the kage thing, why have the 13 year old brat taking the kage position rather than the actual head of the clan which they were already following? What happens when itachi turns out to be doing the job the way he is supposed to be doing it when the uchiha expectation was that he would be turning more and more power towards them (we already know they were willing to start a war and die to get leadership in the village). Itachi might have had an impressive record for his age however it is not quite unheard of for ninja to become chunnin young nor perform difficult missions at such a young age. All the uchiha were elite ninja, for all we know plenty of people had his records (specially fugaku considering that he was too an elite ninja and was significantly older than itachi). If I remember right, Gaara was only chosen as Kazekage because the Suna council could use him as a puppet ruler. And I really doubt Jiraiya and Tsunade would have been considered better candidates when they were both gone from the village for years. Anyway, I would think being made Anbu captain would have been a major feat and showcased his strength, even before he had presumably gained the hax of MS. Becoming an Anbu captain, a position nearly at the top of the chain, would have implied both experience and strength to the rest of the jounins needed to give a vote.

The whole coup started seemingly over the Uchiha's feeling they got a raw deal. Having one of their best being made Hokage would have changed that, not to mention dealt with the discrimination thrown towards them, returning them back to the loyal ninjas they were previously.

[M3J]

IMO same would happen with Itachi. But realistically how often do the Kage's see one another? Up until Bee's introduction we had only even seen the Kages of two villages. At the Chunnin exams only two of the five great countries were present.

I honestly think too much stock is being put into what other villages think. A Kage is a Kage for a reason. First and foremost they need their villages respect, then they can worry about other kages. And again, like Gaara, once they meet him they would understand how he is. Itachi's mere presence commands respect, he literally strikes fear into all those around him.

I agree, but Gaara and the other kage had a reason to meet, t hus he could prove himself. From the looks of it, the kage rarely ever meet.

Kage wouldn't be kage if they didn't have their village's respect though. The respect they get from other villages or acknowledgment anyway makes a big difference. Even if they're seen as powerful, the other kage would think they're more powerful and proceed to attack the village anyway.

Itachi's presence was scary, if I recall, mostly because of the cold eyes and the way he acted. He was acting for the sake of his brother and Konoha. No telling how he'd act when he'd be with Konoha. Like with Gaara, Itachi has to earn that fear.

Other kage are less likely to attack Konoha under MInato's leadership because they know how powerful he is. He was one of the few who singlehandedly helped Konoha win the war. His reputation precedes him by quite a bit. Itachi, who may not have been in a war or done anything as great, would not gain that kind of respect nor discourage other kage from attacking Konoha, as they wouldn't think Konoha is that strong.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I just thought about it, but after Tsunade went comatose, they didn't even considered Naruto as Hokage material despite having only Danzou and Kakashi as alternatives.
You know Naruto? The one that beat the supposed leader of Akatsuki and magically saved all the villagers by letting them get back to life ? The one that saved the village from Gaara, that retrieved Tsunade thus giving Konoha an Hokage?
That one.
It would be a little nonsensical to chose Itachi when there was a younger Sarutobi, Kakashi and the Sannins

[Delbi]

I just thought about it, but after Tsunade went comatose, they didn't even considered Naruto as Hokage material despite having only Danzou and Kakashi as alternatives.
You know Naruto? The one that beat the supposed leader of Akatsuki and magically saved all the villagers by letting them get back to life ? The one that saved the village from Gaara, that retrieved Tsunade thus giving Konoha an Hokage?
That one.
It would be a little nonsensical to chose Itachi when there was a younger Sarutobi, Kakashi and the Sannins

Naruto at age 50 is probably not as wise or mature as Itachi at age 13...so there's that.

Not to mention he was an unstable wreck who at the time would have sacrificed half the village to save Sasuke. Itachi was willing to slaughter his entire clan to save the village.

As for choosing the Sannin's, Kakashi, and Sarturobi over Itachi, keep a few things in mind.

1) Kakashi wasn't that strong, as he shit his pants when being confronted by Orochimaru years after Itachi had already left the village.

2) Jiraiya and Tsuande were not in the village at the time, and neither wanted to be Hokage.

3) IMO, Sarturobi didn't deserve to be Hokage after all the of the shit he allowed to happen under his watch, including the Uchiha Massacre, the Orochimaru debacle, and the treatment of his youth like Naruto and Sasuke.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Naruto at age 50 is probably not as wise or mature as Itachi at age 13...so there's that.

Not to mention he was an unstable wreck who at the time would have sacrificed half the village to save Sasuke. Itachi was willing to slaughter his entire clan to save the village.

Debatable, since Itachi was influenced by Naruto's words which aided his post-mortem "acceptation of himself".
While the guy tortured a 7 years old, making him one of the baddest villain of the manga. So both made mistakes, but both are definitely Kage material.


As for choosing the Sannin's, Kakashi, and Sarturobi over Itachi, keep a few things in mind.

1) Kakashi wasn't that strong, as he shit his pants when being confronted by Orochimaru years after Itachi had already left the village.

2) Jiraiya and Tsuande were not in the village at the time, and neither wanted to be Hokage.

3) IMO, Sarturobi didn't deserve to be Hokage after all the of the shit he allowed to happen under his watch, including the Uchiha Massacre, the Orochimaru debacle, and the treatment of his youth like Naruto and Sasuke.

1)Not only Itachi's ownage of Oro was done after he murdered his clan, but Kakashi was way more notorious since:
-he was the son of the White Fang
-he basically came on top of the ninja hierarchy even faster than Itachi ( if I remember right, Kakashi became a genin at, like, 5, a chunin at 6 and a Jounin at 13 )
-he, like Itachi, had the sharingan, and fought in a War
-he was the disciple of Yondaime

We know that Itachi always was stronger, but we are the readers lol

2)Jiraiya can be called back, same for Tsunade. I believe Danzou would've made Tsunade came back by, say, threatening her to kill Shizune, or extinguishing her debts.
The return of Tsunade isn't that big of an issue

3) On that I wholeheartly agree with you, poor Hiruzen was and still is used as the Garbagekage by Kishi

[Delbi]

Debatable, since Itachi was influenced by Naruto's words which aided his post-mortem "acceptation of himself".
While the guy tortured a 7 years old, making him one of the baddest villain of the manga. So both made mistakes, but both are definitely Kage material.



1)Not only Itachi's ownage of Oro was done after he murdered his clan, but Kakashi was way more notorious since:
-he was the son of the White Fang
-he basically came on top of the ninja hierarchy even faster than Itachi ( if I remember right, Kakashi became a genin at, like, 5, a chunin at 6 and a Jounin at 13 )
-he, like Itachi, had the sharingan, and fought in a War
-he was the disciple of Yondaime

We know that Itachi always was stronger, but we are the readers lol

2)Jiraiya can be called back, same for Tsunade. I believe Danzou would've made Tsunade came back by, say, threatening her to kill Shizune, or extinguishing her debts.
The return of Tsunade isn't that big of an issue

3) On that I wholeheartly agree with you, poor Hiruzen was and still is used as the Garbagekage by Kishi

Itachi was the one who was achunnin at 5 ANBU Captain at 13. Kakashi was Chunnin at 7 Jounin at 13 if I remember correctly.

And it's not like Itachi doesn't have notoriety. He was the prodigal son of the Uchiha's Clan Leader. Kakashi and Itachi both fought in the same war, different was Kakashi was 13 and Itachi was 5...sounds awful.

Jiraiya could have been called back but he would have declined to be Hokage like he did when he actually was. And without a 13 year old Naruto, there is no way a drunk Tsuande was going to become Hokage. So essentially, your best candidates would be Danzou and Itachi.

[Rikudou King]

Debatable, since Itachi was influenced by Naruto's words which aided his post-mortem "acceptation of himself".
While the guy tortured a 7 years old, making him one of the baddest villain of the manga. So both made mistakes, but both are definitely Kage material. Naruto probably wasn't added as a candidate because he has no leadership experience. Let's be honest, while strength is necessary, so would be the ability to command and lead others. Naruto's lone wolf attitude isn't exactly the sort of attitude you want in the guy who's suppose to sit back and give orders from afar.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Itachi was the one who was achunnin at 5 ANBU Captain at 13. Kakashi was Chunnin at 7 Jounin at 13 if I remember correctly.

And it's not like Itachi doesn't have notoriety. He was the prodigal son of the Uchiha's Clan Leader. Kakashi and Itachi both fought in the same war, different was Kakashi was 13 and Itachi was 5...sounds awful.

Jiraiya could have been called back but he would have declined to be Hokage like he did when he actually was. And without a 13 year old Naruto, there is no way a drunk Tsuande was going to become Hokage. So essentially, your best candidates would be Danzou and Itachi.

ANBU are chunin level ninja, while Jounins are, well, Jounins.

Still Itachi was part of a clan, it is like considering Neji as a candidate to Kage, both were the best prodigies the clan had ever seen, both were exceptional ninja in their own right ( ok Itachi was better than Neji will ever be at 13, yet the village didn't knew that ).
Also Kakashi had way more experience. So it would be pretty dumb to consider Itachi over Kakashi, we know and can because we are the readers


Naruto probably wasn't added as a candidate because he has no leadership experience. Let's be honest, while strength is necessary, so would be the ability to command and lead others. Naruto's lone wolf attitude isn't exactly the sort of attitude you want in the guy who's suppose to sit back and give orders from afar.

Exactly, I see both unfit to lead at the time, both used to be lone wolves, and, ironically, a talk between them led them in the path of accepting others:
Naruto was arrogant and wanted to shelter his friends, exactly like Itachi, with the difference that he wanted to shelter Sasuke.
Both are among the strongest, both needed a wake up call, Naruto is luckier since he didn't need to die.
There is a reason if Itachi changed his view after talking extensively with Naruto, imho.

[hyper_megaman]

ANBU are chunin level ninja, while Jounins are, well, Jounins.

Still Itachi was part of a clan, it is like considering Neji as a candidate to Kage, both were the best prodigies the clan had ever seen, both were exceptional ninja in their own right ( ok Itachi was better than Neji will ever be at 13, yet the village didn't knew that ).
Also Kakashi had way more experience. So it would be pretty dumb to consider Itachi over Kakashi, we know and can because we are the readers



Exactly, I see both unfit to lead at the time, both used to be lone wolves, and, ironically, a talk between them led them in the path of accepting others:
Naruto was arrogant and wanted to shelter his friends, exactly like Itachi, with the difference that he wanted to shelter Sasuke.
Both are among the strongest, both needed a wake up call, Naruto is luckier since he didn't need to die.
There is a reason if Itachi changed his view after talking extensively with Naruto, imho.

anbu are special force elites who i presume are even stronger than jounin

they are frequently called to track down and kill missing nin

anbu are not chuunin.. chuunins will be slayed if they were sent after jounin

[Delbi]

ANBU are chunin level ninja, while Jounins are, well, Jounins.

Still Itachi was part of a clan, it is like considering Neji as a candidate to Kage, both were the best prodigies the clan had ever seen, both were exceptional ninja in their own right ( ok Itachi was better than Neji will ever be at 13, yet the village didn't knew that ).
Also Kakashi had way more experience. So it would be pretty dumb to consider Itachi over Kakashi, we know and can because we are the readers


ANBU level ninja are not all chunnin. Considering Kakashi wasn't made a ANBU Captain until AFTER he was a Jounin speaks volumes about Itachi being made one before he was a Jounin. As an ANBU Captain Itachi would have been in charge of people he outranked outside of ANBU.

And I think it was fairly well known within the village how powerful Itachi was. And in comparison to Neji, who was just a genius, Itachi was a prodigy. The only ninja we are aware of that has received the praise that Itachi has has been Minato.

And as for Kakashi having way more experience, it's not like Itachi doesn't. He was actively fighting in a war at the age of 5 and then was one dozens of missions after that.

[Rikudou King]

ANBU are chunin level ninja, while Jounins are, well, Jounins. Anbu are made up of both chuunin and jounin, but only the best of the regular forces are taken into it.


Exactly, I see both unfit to lead at the time, both used to be lone wolves, and, ironically, a talk between them led them in the path of accepting others:
Naruto was arrogant and wanted to shelter his friends, exactly like Itachi, with the difference that he wanted to shelter Sasuke.
Both are among the strongest, both needed a wake up call, Naruto is luckier since he didn't need to die.
There is a reason if Itachi changed his view after talking extensively with Naruto, imho. But Itachi had leadership experience. He was a captain in Anbu, meaning he would have lead a team. Not to mention his father being head of the Uchiha clan would have allow him to see leadership in action. And Itachi didn't begin to shelter Sasuke until after the events of the massacre, which isn't an issue here because we're speaking about before the massacre.

[kkck]

Tsunade was a drunken depressed gambler doctor with fear of blood and even then she was deemed an acceptable replacement for jiraiya even though jiraiya had been the one searching for orochimaru and took part in the war between suna and konoha. To boot, kakashi was 30 years old when he was considered for kage and even then his age thing was brought up. Heck, kakashi's only competition was the old crippled(no eye or functional arm as far as everyone knew) guy sarutobi's age (and lets remember sarutobi held his kage position for so long because he did not quite think there was anyone suitable to replace him) There is no scenario where a 13 year old ninja would be considered for kage regardless of him being an uchiha. Konoha would have had to be ridden of every drunkard, every gambler, every pervert, every crippled, every old guy and pretty much everyone other conceivable option first before having to take a pick among the kids in the village. Even then, there is no guarantee the jonnin would have approved of itachi had he been selected, the jonnin did have their perverts, drunkards and crippled old guys perfectly available at the time.

Even if becoming an anbu captain was such a huge deal among the skilled konoha ninja, why would they pick itachi to be kage from among them? Granted, he was deemed skilled enough to be a captain from a young age but for all we know there were plenty other anbu captains with sufficient age back then. Being 13 is not a qualification either, if anything just the opposite. For that matter, why being an anbu captain be such an qualification over jonnin?

In most nations when someone commits treason you do not hand over power to them. In most scenarios you do exactly what konoha did, take no prisoners. Thats the cruel reality. Even if the uchiha were being discriminated against by the higher ups it does not justify the coup, at least IMO. This are the things we know were done against the uchiha:

They were moved to a position were they could be easily spied. No indication was ever given that the uchiha at large had poor living standards. If anything, at least sasuke's place seemed reasonably comfortable.

They were pushed away from political power. Granted this is bad however this did not guarantee they would have had an overwhelming amount of power either.

The uchiha at large were not hated by the village as a whole. They were not given any less opportunities than anyone else in the village either outside of the political part. If anything, as far as we could tell most of the citizens in the village trusted and respected the uchiha. The village at large did not have a clue of what was going on with the uchiha at the time, they were not aware that the uchiha were being suspected of the kyubi attack nor that they were being pushed away from political power. The people at the village were at large innocent basically and even then they were going for a coup which would have started a civil war and risked a world war. Even if the uchiha were not given ideal treatment by 3 or 4 people in the village it does not entitle them to power.

Its not like power in the village is held exclusively by senju either. Granted 3 kages have been senju however we do know for a fact that senju are born objectively better than non senju, they are born with chakras and bodies others do not have which results in them being stronger ninja than normal clans (even those with KG). Even then sarutobi, minato and danzo were not senju as far as we know and jiraiya and kakashi, the other kage candidates, were not actually senju. Of course, the uchiha are also generally born to be objectively better than other ninjas (we even have manga statements which point out all uchiha were elite ninjas) however that does not guarantee any of them would have been made a kage instead of the guys that did became kage. Or do we assume sarutobi had a perfect uchiha to choose from instead of minato at the time(unless we argue that 7 year old itachi was also good to go)?

Note that I am not saying that what was done to the uchiha is not outright horrible, I am merely pointed out that they did not live in a guetto and starved and none of what was done to them entitled them to power. Its not like the village would have had approved of the uchiha being treated worse than others as far as we know nor like such a thing could have actually been approved.

Even then, I can't stress enough that having the elders and council select itachi as kage would have necessarily solved anything. It would not actually guarantee he would even be the kage for one thing, he necessarily needs the jonnin to vote for him. Would they have voted for him when danzo, jiraiya and tsunade were still around? We are literally talking about the village voting for a 13 year old over at least 3 perfectly seasoned respected ninjas at least. Having itachi as kage would not have necessarily made the uchiha happy either. Why would it? The leader of the clan and the man responsible behind the coup was the clan head fugaku. Why would the uchiha be happy that the kid was a better candidate than the adult leader they already had? By the end the uchiha did not even trust itachi all that much either. Of course, its not like the jonnin would have certainly voted for fugaku either. More so, the uchiha were going for all the power, would they settle for itachi being the kage and sharing power with the elders? I mean, it is not like itachi would have cared the uchiha were his family in that regard, he would have given everyone in the village the same treatment. Another important matter is how exactly the people in charge would have known itachi was good to go as a kage candidate. I mean, what would have suggested in this context that itachi was actually good to go was the fact that he betrayed his family. How would they have known itachi was good to go before that? Is there guarantee that the uchiha would have approved of itachi by the time this started happening? Not to mention that under this scenario everything would have happened under a very reduced time frame as far as we know. Itachi would have become a double spy (thus proving he was a good kage candidate) not so long before the massacre and not too long after that he was already not trusted by his own clan. There is a very good chance that the time by which everyone would have realized itachi was good to go as a kage would have overlapped with the time itachi stopped being trusted by his clan which would negate the possibility of bringing peace by making him a kage.

[Rikudou King]

The problem with presuming Tsunade and Jiraiya would be viable candidates is the fact that they would have both been gone when the choice would have been made. The only reason Jiraiya was chosen was because he was in the village at that point in time, which we know wasn't a common event. The sheer fact that they weren't readily available would have made them unlikely candidates. And ages means little. Sarutobi would have been only a couple years older then Itachi when he was chosen to be Hokage, so the argument that Itachi was too young is pointless. The fact that despite his age, he was already fully trusted by the Hokage and Elders means quite bit.

Making Itachi the Hokage wouldn't be "handing over power to treasoners". Itachi wasn't the one committing treason, but the one revealing it. And given his known loyal nature, there clearly wouldn't have been any worry about him putting clan affairs above those of the village, especially if they trusted him enough to take out his own clan. There's also no reason to believe that the jounins wouldn't have supported him. If common opinion is anything, then Itachi was already well respected by the time Sasuke began at the academy. Pus he obvious would have had the backing of both the Elders, who would have supported him because he listened to them and his own clan, who would have supported him because what they wanted was an Uchiha in power. There really wouldn't have been ay downside to choosing Itachi, especially since it would have meant that they wouldn't have had to sacrifice a portion of their military power just to maintain peace. And odds are Itachi would have been seen as a creditable threat, seeing how despite being willing to attack Konoha and having what he believed to be three Hokages at his command, still considered taking Itachi to be impossible.

[Uchiha_Blood]

The problem with presuming Tsunade and Jiraiya would be viable candidates is the fact that they would have both been gone when the choice would have been made. The only reason Jiraiya was chosen was because he was in the village at that point in time, which we know wasn't a common event. The sheer fact that they weren't readily available would have made them unlikely candidates. And ages means little. Sarutobi would have been only a couple years older then Itachi when he was chosen to be Hokage, so the argument that Itachi was too young is pointless. The fact that despite his age, he was already fully trusted by the Hokage and Elders means quite bit.

Making Itachi the Hokage wouldn't be "handing over power to treasoners". Itachi wasn't the one committing treason, but the one revealing it. And given his known loyal nature, there clearly wouldn't have been any worry about him putting clan affairs above those of the village, especially if they trusted him enough to take out his own clan. There's also no reason to believe that the jounins wouldn't have supported him. If common opinion is anything, then Itachi was already well respected by the time Sasuke began at the academy. Pus he obvious would have had the backing of both the Elders, who would have supported him because he listened to them and his own clan, who would have supported him because what they wanted was an Uchiha in power. There really wouldn't have been ay downside to choosing Itachi, especially since it would have meant that they wouldn't have had to sacrifice a portion of their military power just to maintain peace. And odds are Itachi would have been seen as a creditable threat, seeing how despite being willing to attack Konoha and having what he believed to be three Hokages at his command, still considered taking Itachi to be impossible.

Hiruzen was at least 18 (http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/481/9) when he was chosen.

What could they do is taking Itachi as a candidate, grooming him to be Hokage so when he would've been ready he would become Hokage.
Yondaime was considered overly young to be a Kage, hell Kakashi despite being almost 30 was considered young to be Hokage. Also someone doesn't become Hokage overnight, Itachi could had the loyalty, but would a 13 years old have the charisma to lead people?
Would people lose their lives for a 13 years old?

[Rikudou King]

Where does it say he was 18? Doesn't look any older then the current Rookies, and they're all around 16. Despite being considered young, Minato was still made Hokage, right? Sarutobi seemingly became Hokage overnight, same with Gaara in becoming Kazekage. And Itachi is hardly lacking in charisma. Heck, Itachi had Kisame following his lead and Kisame's a criminal.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Where does it say he was 18? Doesn't look any older then the current Rookies, and they're all around 16. Despite being considered young, Minato was still made Hokage, right? Sarutobi seemingly became Hokage overnight, same with Gaara in becoming Kazekage. And Itachi is hardly lacking in charisma. Heck, Itachi had Kisame following his lead and Kisame's a criminal.

It is still more than 13, and Yondaime was on his mid-twenties when he was made Hokage.
Hiruzen was groomed since he was little, remember the flashback he had when fighting Oro?

As for Itachi's charisma, Kisame didn't follow him for it, or rather only for it.
They shared a friendship, since they had a similar background and all, and respected each other as human beings. Itachi said so himself in recent chapters that he was pretty similar to Kabuto in the first place

[Rikudou King]

In spite of his younger age, Itachi had already accomplished more then them. There's not anything suggesting there's an age limit on who could be chosen nor for it to matter when said ninja has accomplished the same feats as much older ninjas. Why would his age matter?

The point is that Itachi showed the ability to get someone who was shown lacking trust in the world to become his friend and follow his lead, even in questionable situations. And Itachi becoming disenfranchised doesn't seem like it happen until after the massacre, else he obviously wouldn't have recognized Tobi's strength.

[Uchiha_Blood]

In spite of his younger age, Itachi had already accomplished more then them. There's not anything suggesting there's an age limit on who could be chosen nor for it to matter when said ninja has accomplished the same feats as much older ninjas. Why would his age matter?

The point is that Itachi showed the ability to get someone who was shown lacking trust in the world to become his friend and follow his lead, even in questionable situations. And Itachi becoming disenfranchised doesn't seem like it happen until after the massacre, else he obviously wouldn't have recognized Tobi's strength.

Itachi accomplished at 13 more than two sannins, the hero of the Third War and a Jounin fighting said war at the same age?
No, just no.
Hell if you see his mission record Itachi has less or the same S rank mission than Rock Lee, which has more A rank.

Also Kisame didn't follow Itachi, they were partners and respected each other ( Kisame fought the 4 tails because he wanted to, in spite of what Itachi wanted. Hell at their introduction he pretty much warned him not to get in his way ), of course generally what Itachi said was followed, since obviously he was the more intelligent and collected of the two.
If he himself said that upon reaching death he truly discovered himself, why then would he be a great Hokage if he himself admitted to be full of flaws?

[Rikudou King]

I was referring to Gaara and young Sarutobi, but let's talk about the others. What exactly did Tsunade accomplish that makes her better suited? Surviving Hanzou with the other two Sannins? Healing a bunch of people during the war? Abandoning Konoha for more then a decade? Jiraiya? Pretty much similar to Tsunade in the surviving Hanzou and leaving the village over several years to wander about. What about Kakashi? Completing an important mission and joining Anbu? Where exactly is Itachi lacking when compared to some of the people chosen for Hokage? Strength? We already know that Itachi was strong enough to be considered enough to handle the entire Uchiha clan and that Orochimaru later considered him impossible to great, despite having access to what he believed were the three former Hokages. Reputation? Itachi was already well known in Konoha even before he preformed the massacre. Leadership? His father was the leader of their clan and Itachi was his oldest, meaning Itachi would have had first hand experience in the matter. In addition, Itachi was chosen for Anbu at the age of 11, freakin' 11 years old. Anbu is the top tier ninjas, personally picked by the Hokage to preform special missions under his direct order. He then became a captain, a position gained by merit and experience. Where exactly was the 13 year old Itachi lacking compared to the others?

Kisame did follow Itachi. In their given missions, he deferred to Itachi's orders. Itachi tells him not to fight, he doesn't fight. Itachi tells him to hang back, he hung back. Itachi tells him to run, he ran, even if he didn't see a reason for it. Kisame fought the Yonbi because that was his target. And you speak as if a Hokage can't have flaws. Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Danzo all had flaws. Heck, Sarutobi had flaws that lead directly to the village being attacked and his own death. Even Minato admitted failure in his attempts to change the system. So let's not act as if the Hokage mush be this flawless being.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I was referring to Gaara and young Sarutobi, but let's talk about the others. What exactly did Tsunade accomplish that makes her better suited? Surviving Hanzou with the other two Sannins? Healing a bunch of people during the war? Abandoning Konoha for more then a decade? Jiraiya? Pretty much similar to Tsunade in the surviving Hanzou and leaving the village over several years to wander about. What about Kakashi? Completing an important mission and joining Anbu? Where exactly is Itachi lacking when compared to some of the people chosen for Hokage? Strength? We already know that Itachi was strong enough to be considered enough to handle the entire Uchiha clan and that Orochimaru later considered him impossible to great, despite having access to what he believed were the three former Hokages. Reputation? Itachi was already well known in Konoha even before he preformed the massacre. Leadership? His father was the leader of their clan and Itachi was his oldest, meaning Itachi would have had first hand experience in the matter. In addition, Itachi was chosen for Anbu at the age of 11, freakin' 11 years old. Anbu is the top tier ninjas, personally picked by the Hokage to preform special missions under his direct order. He then became a captain, a position gained by merit and experience. Where exactly was the 13 year old Itachi lacking compared to the others?

We really don't know about Jiraiya and Tsunade's accomplishments outside the war they fought and the actual timeline, what we know is that Sannins are known world-wide, way more than the Uchiha clan or most others clan/associations.
Kisame commented that being a Swordman or an Uchiha mattered nothing compared to a Sannin, which actually proves how much weight the title holds. Remember, strenght isn't the only thing that matters, Tsunade almost singlehandedly supported an entire village during the Pein invasion, just to name an accomplishment she did.
Uchihas aren't well-known as you seem to think, hell Deidara never ever knew Itachi's eyes were the Sharingan, and Zabuza never recognized Sasuke's symbol on his clothes. Uchiha were famous after the massacre, because of it. The only ones that aknowledge the Uchihas are old guys like Chiyo. For the world, Uchihas are a clan just like Hyuugas, Aburames or Akimichis.
The Sannin title holds immensely more weight, expecially since Jiraiya traveled world-wide and had contacts in all the villages. Tsunade too was known as being the greatest Medic alive. Itachi on the countrary wasn't all that known before the massacre.


Kisame did follow Itachi. In their given missions, he deferred to Itachi's orders. Itachi tells him not to fight, he doesn't fight. Itachi tells him to hang back, he hung back. Itachi tells him to run, he ran, even if he didn't see a reason for it. Kisame fought the Yonbi because that was his target. And you speak as if a Hokage can't have flaws. Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Danzo all had flaws. Heck, Sarutobi had flaws that lead directly to the village being attacked and his own death. Even Minato admitted failure in his attempts to change the system. So let's not act as if the Hokage mush be this flawless being.

As I said it was so because Itachi was the more intelligent and cool-headed of the two, don't forget that both responded to Pein, say Kisame screws up, Pein would screw up Kisame.
With Itachi in charge, the chance of screwing up were far more reduced. Also you're right, Hokage aren't flawless, yet being an already renowed ninja well past the maturity time is way better than an immature ( at least apparently ) 13 years old.
No one would give command to a 13 years old, even in the shinobi world.
Suna is a special case since Gaara was already the strongest at 13, and 16 is always better than 13. That is why I said that Itachi could've been groomed for the position since he would've reached an acceptable maturity.
Like for Yondaime

[shafagh]

I was referring to Gaara and young Sarutobi, but let's talk about the others. What exactly did Tsunade accomplish that makes her better suited? Surviving Hanzou with the other two Sannins? Healing a bunch of people during the war? Abandoning Konoha for more then a decade? Jiraiya? Pretty much similar to Tsunade in the surviving Hanzou and leaving the village over several years to wander about. What about Kakashi? Completing an important mission and joining Anbu? Where exactly is Itachi lacking when compared to some of the people chosen for Hokage? Strength? We already know that Itachi was strong enough to be considered enough to handle the entire Uchiha clan and that Orochimaru later considered him impossible to great, despite having access to what he believed were the three former Hokages. Reputation? Itachi was already well known in Konoha even before he preformed the massacre. Leadership? His father was the leader of their clan and Itachi was his oldest, meaning Itachi would have had first hand experience in the matter. In addition, Itachi was chosen for Anbu at the age of 11, freakin' 11 years old. Anbu is the top tier ninjas, personally picked by the Hokage to preform special missions under his direct order. He then became a captain, a position gained by merit and experience. Where exactly was the 13 year old Itachi lacking compared to the others?

Kisame did follow Itachi. In their given missions, he deferred to Itachi's orders. Itachi tells him not to fight, he doesn't fight. Itachi tells him to hang back, he hung back. Itachi tells him to run, he ran, even if he didn't see a reason for it. Kisame fought the Yonbi because that was his target. And you speak as if a Hokage can't have flaws. Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Danzo all had flaws. Heck, Sarutobi had flaws that lead directly to the village being attacked and his own death. Even Minato admitted failure in his attempts to change the system. So let's not act as if the Hokage mush be this flawless being.

he was an uchiha , I already find out most of readers have same ideas as konoha's elders ....


We really don't know about Jiraiya and Tsunade's accomplishments outside the war they fought and the actual timeline, what we know is that Sannins are known world-wide, way more than the Uchiha clan or most others clan/associations.

they were well known because Hanzo gave them a title/surname ...

and title are useless , Pain was strongest ninja in his era but no one knew him ...

IMO uchihas didn't need any title , because UCHIHA itself was /is one of the most fearful title/surname in manga .
their clan name was their title
Even Raikage didn't dare to send someone to obtaining Sharingan !!

[Rikudou King]

We really don't know about Jiraiya and Tsunade's accomplishments outside the war they fought and the actual timeline, what we know is that Sannins are known world-wide, way more than the Uchiha clan or most others clan/associations.
Kisame commented that being a Swordman or an Uchiha mattered nothing compared to a Sannin, which actually proves how much weight the title holds. Remember, strenght isn't the only thing that matters, Tsunade almost singlehandedly supported an entire village during the Pein invasion, just to name an accomplishment she did.
Uchihas aren't well-known as you seem to think, hell Deidara never ever knew Itachi's eyes were the Sharingan, and Zabuza never recognized Sasuke's symbol on his clothes. Uchiha were famous after the massacre, because of it. The only ones that aknowledge the Uchihas are old guys like Chiyo. For the world, Uchihas are a clan just like Hyuugas, Aburames or Akimichis.
The Sannin title holds immensely more weight, expecially since Jiraiya traveled world-wide and had contacts in all the villages. Tsunade too was known as being the greatest Medic alive. Itachi on the countrary wasn't all that known before the massacre. The title of Sannin was granted by Hanzou for being able to put up a fight and that's what they became famous for. Outside the title of Sannin, Tsunade's only famous for her healing ability and Jiraiya hasn't been noted for anything. Tsunade saying the village means nothing, since that was something only she would have been capable of, so it's not a standard for being Hokage. Beside, Itachi kept Tobi and by extension Nagato from attacking Konoha for narly a decade just by being alive. In terms of protection, that's a better feat. The Uchiha clan is quite world famous. Deidara not recognizing the Sharingan or Zabuza not knowing what the fan meant doesn't mean anything. We've seen both Kiri and Kumo knew enough about them to be cautious. Heck, the mere mention of their former leader's name was enough to put all the Kages on guard and the thought of him being alive was enough to bring all five villages together. So the Uchiha clan isn't just some clan. Konoha believed that them staging a coup would have caused widespread damage to the entire country.

Regardless, we're talking about Itachi himself, not merely the clan. Konoha, Kumo, Orochimaru, Tobi, and Kabuto have all praised Itachi for matters separate from the massacre. So he wasn't merely famous for the massacre. Heck, Konoha believing he was enough to handle his entire clan says plenty. Besides, what about Sarutobi, Kakashi, and Danzo hardly having records like that, so we're still back at the main issue.


As I said it was so because Itachi was the more intelligent and cool-headed of the two, don't forget that both responded to Pein, say Kisame screws up, Pein would screw up Kisame.
With Itachi in charge, the chance of screwing up were far more reduced. Also you're right, Hokage aren't flawless, yet being an already renowed ninja well past the maturity time is way better than an immature ( at least apparently ) 13 years old.
No one would give command to a 13 years old, even in the shinobi world.
Suna is a special case since Gaara was already the strongest at 13, and 16 is always better than 13. That is why I said that Itachi could've been groomed for the position since he would've reached an acceptable maturity.
Like for Yondaime How does that counter the argument of Itachi leading him? And who gave orders to Nagato? Tobi, who Itachi had enough diplomacy to team up with in exchange for keeping Konoha safe. Obviously Itachi was capable of acting as a leader and making bargains for the good of the village. On the other hand, we've seen multiple ninjas disregard and ignore Tsunade's command. Immature? How was Itachi immature or seen as immature when he was made captain in Anbu? When he was let in on the highest and most important missions of the village? Obviously they didn't think he was too immature to keep the secret of what really happen with the massacre from getting out. The fact that he was made a captain pretty much proves you wrong in the idea that they wouldn't give command to a 13 year old.

[M3J]

Command was over a squad though, about 3-4 people. Being a hokage means being a visible leader of tons of shinobi and the village, it's not just limited to a tiny group. Itachi had to concentrate on his missions when he was leading ANBU. When he leads the village, he has to take under consideration about at least 500 people.

[Rikudou King]

Of course commanding the entire village would entitle more then commanding a squad, but the overall issues would be the same: giving orders over a group of people and basically figuring out the best way to use them to get the most out of them with the least cost. Danzo's really the only candidate with known experience commanding an entire force, instead of a team or squad, not counting Hashirama and Tobirama who lead an entire clan. So it's not as if he's missing something all the other candidates had.

[M3J]

But Itachi's decisions will affect the entire village. If he sends Kakashi on a C-rank mission instead of A-rank mission, then the village might pay for that because whoever got sent on A-rank mission failed as they didn't have the necessary skill sets that Kakashi did. His decisions affect the village even more than it did as commander of a small force. Even Itachi admitted he had flaws that made him rely on himself. A hokage is supposed to trust others and believe in them, something Itachi had difficulty doing, apparently.

Of course, my memory could be wrong due to repression. :cookiehand

[Rikudou King]

You're right about what's required, though I don't believe Itachi began to solely depend on himself til afterward. I don't think Itachi would have much trouble judging who can do what and who should be on what mission. His innate analytical skills should be a benefit there, and even if it was on a smaller scale, the experience with managing a squad should help. Plus that is the point of the Elders, to help the Hokage make the correct decisions. At the very least, I believe he would do better then Tsunade, sending a bunch of genin when there were stronger ninjas available.

[M3J]

Didn't Tsunade say that the stronger ninjas were busy doing missions, and that Naruto's team would do better because of Naruto? If it was a similar situation, I could see Itachi doin the same, at least sending out Naruto if he knows about Naruto's power to change people. And while the elders can help the hokage, the hokage still make some final decisions. Though if we take Tsunade's argument with the elders into account, they have almost as much power as the hokage.

I don't think Itachi would have such trouble either, but he shouldn't have to fear losing men nor constantly go on missions just because he thinks he's best suited for it. In fact, I don't think Itachi could have become a hokage so early because hokages can't go on missions, not easily anyway. I think it was only Niidaime HOkage who went on a mission?

[Rikudou King]

She said that but we saw it wasn't true. Kotetsu and Izumo were around doing nothing more then delivering paperwork and Gai was there waiting to see how Lee was. That's two chuunin and a jounin that was available to lend support. I also believe the only reason Naruto was there was due to favoritism. I don't think he purposely added anything to the mission, though perhaps she was banking on Sasuke's relation with him to draw him back. True the Hokage would have final decision, at least in most cases, but unlike Tsunade, I don't see Itachi being the type to disregard the advice of others. Especially the people who we know he was willing to side with on something major like eliminating his entire clan.

Technically, I don't think Tobirama was on a mission. They went to Kumo to ensure a formal alliance, so that was beyond just a standard mission. Anyway, I don't think Itachi would fear losing men. We've seen a few times that he's willing to sacrifice others when his plans call for it. He didn't have a problem putting Naruto in Sasuke's sight in his attempt to have Sasuke gain MS and he was prepared to kidnap Kakashi I think. He helped Shisui kill himself so his eye wouldn't be fought over and he also had no trouble allowing the seven Jinchuuriki to be killed for Tobi's plan. And of course, there was the Uchiha clan. Outside Sasuke, he's always done what was needed, even if it involved setting up someone for death.