PDA

View Full Version : Nen Characters and abilities with unknown Nen categories



TheAmericandream
April 19, 2012, 03:01 PM
Okay, this might already have had a thread a while back. But I wanted to discuss this as its own topic. What are some of the Hatsu or characters we know of that don't have Nen categories revealed? Are there any nearly 100% educated guesses you have for them? The ones I want to know most are:

Knuckle Bine with Hakoware (I think maybe Conjurer/Materialization? That makes the most sense to me)

Yupi (Transmutation or Enhancement? He Enhances his rage maybe? I mean if he's a magical beast how do we know his transformations are nen or not? I'm most curious about Yupi's abilities)

Netero (Conjurer or Specialist? I mean he conjured that huge thing, and it has conditions on it, I'm always skeptical when it doesn't quite line up with Hisoka's personality chart)

I'll leave it with those to start off.
Though Gorain being Emission also made no sense to me looking back at a character who I think they do reveal his category. His Nen beasts seem like conjuring to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

Discuss.

Netero
April 19, 2012, 03:09 PM
I've read on quite a few sites that Netero, and Youpi are enhancers. Not sure if it's true or not.

I think Knuckle might be emission.

This is from the HxH wiki on emitters

Some Emission abilities (such as Shachmono Tocino's) are commonly mistaken for Conjuration abilities. The two, however, are fundamentally different. Objects created by Emitters are created solely from aura, invisible to those whom haven't learned Nen, and require Manipulation skills to control.

TheAmericandream
April 19, 2012, 03:24 PM
Well that does make sense, so how do you explain Greed Island NPC's? Aren't they conjured? Does it not require Manipulation to control as well? This is why I'd love to see more Emission training (Leorio maybe? I hope so) or elaboration on Kurapika's training to explain more about Conjuring. I get those two confused all the time, I assumed normal people could see Hakoware since it didn't seem like it required Gyo to see, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Nen can truly be confusing, but its a deep world indeed. Now Hakoware also seals off a persons nen, to me that always felt like Conjuring to me. It has specific rules to it and it works at a fairly long distance. Though it does stop calculating when Knuckle is farther away...so maybe it is Emission? I'd love for someone who thinks they have a firmer grasp on it explain it.

MegamanX195
April 19, 2012, 08:05 PM
Well that does make sense, so how do you explain Greed Island NPC's? Aren't they conjured? Does it not require Manipulation to control as well? This is why I'd love to see more Emission training (Leorio maybe? I hope so) or elaboration on Kurapika's training to explain more about Conjuring. I get those two confused all the time, I assumed normal people could see Hakoware since it didn't seem like it required Gyo to see, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Nen can truly be confusing, but its a deep world indeed. Now Hakoware also seals off a persons nen, to me that always felt like Conjuring to me. It has specific rules to it and it works at a fairly long distance. Though it does stop calculating when Knuckle is farther away...so maybe it is Emission? I'd love for someone who thinks they have a firmer grasp on it explain it.

No, just because normal people can't see it doesn't mean one needs to use Gyo to see it. Gyo only needs to be used to see stuff hidden with In. Nen users are the only ones that can see non-materialized Nen stuff because the shokos of their eyes have been opened. That's why Gon and Killua (and regular people) couldn't see Nen before Wing awakened their shokos.

TheAmericandream
April 19, 2012, 08:27 PM
Okay with that understood (kinda forgot), can you set nen conditional spells to emission based powers?

Sea Hunter
April 23, 2012, 12:15 PM
With Emission you give orders or general instructions to your nen thus you can leave it alone to act you don't have to be in control of it all times.

Check the difference between Razor's nen beats vs Goraim's beasts, the first are Emission where their movements and actions are based upon previously given orders, while Goraim's beasts (Materialized) move only with direct control from him, thus when he passed out they disappeared.

For both types you'll need Manipulation in you want to be in control and give direct orders, notice this is a must for materialization but not so for Emission.

As for normal people seeing Emission objects (not aura) or not, where did you get your info? as far as i know it hasn't been mentioned in the manga wether an object created with Materialization or Emission is any different from normal people's perspective.

It's easy to put every nen ability we can't understand under Specialization category haha but i think that most are a mix of types, for example i'm guessing Netero's Hatsu is a Enhancement + Emission with Emission probably being his main category, Yupi being Enhancement main with Manipulation to his own body.

TheAmericandream
April 23, 2012, 02:02 PM
Emission and Materialization just sort of meld together for me a lot of times. I used to thinK I had an handle on which was which, but lately not so certain. I just thought that Materialized abilities were closer to looking and feeling "real" then something made by an Emitter. I shouldn't take HxH wiki as fact lol, though I'd really appreciate getting an Emission training scene. All we see Gon do with Emission is paper and that funny training he did with Biscuit. What reason would there be that Netero's ability couldn't just be purely Materialization or Emission? Because its so powerful? Would Kurapika's chains be possible with Emission as well?

On another note, things like Yupi's transforming his body and the Snake girl from the Zodiac. Would those both classify as Manipulation?

Foreva
April 23, 2012, 03:44 PM
The manga has never explicitly stated that the objects created by Emitters are invisible to normal people's eyes but most, if not all of the conjured objects related to Emission aura (they are not real, inanimate things) that we've seen so far are invisible. For example:

Pokkle's arrows
Netero's Buddha statue (he's an Enhancer but to create this statue he must use Emission aura because it's not connected to his body)
Knuckle's Hakoware

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/hunterx/images/6/6d/Jump_Remix_2009_Vol_6_-_1.jpg

MegamanX195
April 23, 2012, 05:11 PM
With Emission you give orders or general instructions to your nen thus you can leave it alone to act you don't have to be in control of it all times.

Check the difference between Razor's nen beats vs Goraim's beasts, the first are Emission where their movements and actions are based upon previously given orders, while Goraim's beasts (Materialized) move only with direct control from him, thus when he passed out they disappeared.

For both types you'll need Manipulation in you want to be in control and give direct orders, notice this is a must for materialization but not so for Emission.

As for normal people seeing Emission objects (not aura) or not, where did you get your info? as far as i know it hasn't been mentioned in the manga wether an object created with Materialization or Emission is any different from normal people's perspective.

It's easy to put every nen ability we can't understand under Specialization category haha but i think that most are a mix of types, for example i'm guessing Netero's Hatsu is a Enhancement + Emission with Emission probably being his main category, Yupi being Enhancement main with Manipulation to his own body.

Both Razor AND Goreinu's Nen beasts are Emission. It's just that they're different: Razor nen creatures are "independent" while Goreinu's are "controlled", but both are still Emission. Kastro's clone was materialized, though: normal people could see it.

Fundamentally, the difference between Emission and Materialization is whether or not the object created is "real" (normal people can see it) or not (just aura shaped like something).

Sea Hunter
April 23, 2012, 06:02 PM
@MegamanX195 and you got that info....from??

No where in the manga was it stated that normal people can't see Emission made objects everything you said is just speculation.
About the beasts being "controlled" you're wrong there, take Morau as an example his deep purple ability compare his use of it in the city where he was taking out Pitou's human dolls vs his use of it against Yupi, first case it was purely Emission with pre given orders and no direct control, in the vs Yupi case he was directly giving orders for his deep purple clones where and when to attack (he purposely made one of his clones take advantage of the opening Yupi created to make him think it's Knuckles), and you know what? it's still the same ability with no difference in the category it belongs to, the only difference is the application of manipulation to his ability for direct control, that's what "controlled" and "uncontrolled" in the Raizer and Goraimu's example u commented on but for them it's not that because it hasn't been stated in the manga that Goraim can give them pre orders to what to do and until that's proven his ability is definitly pure materialization just like Castro and not Emission..




On another note, things like Yupi's transforming his body and the Snake girl from the Zodiac. Would those both classify as Manipulation?

Manipulation definition in the manga the ability to control living or non-living material it's the only category i can think of to make you able to manipulate your own body.

@Foreva Yes Pokkle's arrows couldn't be seen by normal people because they were emitted aura, i was arguing about emitted objects should be seen by normal people just like materialized objects, since it hasn't been stated in the manga otherwise..

TheAmericandream
April 23, 2012, 06:35 PM
is there any fundamental difference between Emitted objects and Materialization? I guess that's all I'd like to know, those two types seem like the most confusing to me. Mostly because they get mixed up with each other a lot by fans as you can obviously tell.

Also I am fairly certain all of Morel's abilities fall under Manipulation (or at least its probably his main category), as he is manipulating smoke with his aura. I mean he does put a ball of his aura inside to control deep purple (the soldiers made of actual smoke), so I guess does that make it also an Emission ability as well as manipulating real smoke? I suppose its a bit of both in that case. Maybe I'm wrong on this, it just seemed like he's manipulating smoke with his aura, but I guess controlling it from a distance, does that suddenly mean it involves Emission? I always felt pretty certain on how Morel's nen works. I think he has one of the more well thought out and straight forward abilities as far as things go.

MegamanX195
April 23, 2012, 10:12 PM
With Emission you give orders or general instructions to your nen thus you can leave it alone to act you don't have to be in control of it all times.

Check the difference between Razor's nen beats vs Goraim's beasts, the first are Emission where their movements and actions are based upon previously given orders, while Goraim's beasts (Materialized) move only with direct control from him, thus when he passed out they disappeared.

For both types you'll need Manipulation in you want to be in control and give direct orders, notice this is a must for materialization but not so for Emission.

As for normal people seeing Emission objects (not aura) or not, where did you get your info? as far as i know it hasn't been mentioned in the manga wether an object created with Materialization or Emission is any different from normal people's perspective.

It's easy to put every nen ability we can't understand under Specialization category haha but i think that most are a mix of types, for example i'm guessing Netero's Hatsu is a Enhancement + Emission with Emission probably being his main category, Yupi being Enhancement main with Manipulation to his own body.

Huh... I thought one of the covers of the chapters stated that Goreinu's type was Emission. Upon re-checking, guess I was mistaken. It does make more sense for Goreinu's beasts to be materialized, as Kastro's clone was materialized and worked similarly.

I'm 100% positive normal people can't see "emitted objects" though. Otherwise, Emission and Materialization would be mixed. After all, it's just normal aura that's away from the body and shaped like something, and, as we all know, regular people can't see aura. Materialization makes the thing "real".

TheAmericandream
April 23, 2012, 10:50 PM
That makes sense to me, but if its never specifically stated I don't know which to believe anymore. If we take a direct translation of how they are both described "Emission" and "Materialization", what are they? There just seems to be a ton of overlap.

Uriel
April 26, 2012, 11:55 AM
A common mistake: Hatsu is not the same as Nen Technique. A Nen Technique involves always more than one school of Hatsu. Hatsu is the most natural way for the user to do with its own aura. Specialization comes when that is a very particular thing that the user knows how to do since "always" generally speaking. That means that every technique at certain point in which is fully developed can become Specialization if it's the only thing the user does for a long time and getting the experience to overcome different things.

About Emission and Materialization the main difference is not only the "can be seen" by not nen users. It means that you can create something. With Aura, you project something and make it with a determined shape and effects. In Materialization, you actually MAKE them. It's somehow the same as talking about a rock and its shadow. Materialization objects "Lives", sort of. In any case, every object that is from materialization needs to achieve some Emission in order to gather the right amount of aura for its creation and to function farther than the user. Same way an emitted object needs to be conjured in order to give it a special effect.

Also, Youpi fits perfectly in Intensification. He can "accelerate" his body growth and He controls that to make new shapes of his own body.

TheAmericandream
April 26, 2012, 02:36 PM
Hmm, I understand the whole overlapping types with well developed abilities, but aren't Emission and Materialization very far apart on the chart? Does that make the user specialization if they can use it effectively?

Uriel
April 26, 2012, 08:31 PM
Because keeping the shape of aura far away from you is rather difficult.

MegamanX195
April 27, 2012, 09:31 AM
A common mistake: Hatsu is not the same as Nen Technique. A Nen Technique involves always more than one school of Hatsu. Hatsu is the most natural way for the user to do with its own aura. Specialization comes when that is a very particular thing that the user knows how to do since "always" generally speaking. That means that every technique at certain point in which is fully developed can become Specialization if it's the only thing the user does for a long time and getting the experience to overcome different things.

About Emission and Materialization the main difference is not only the "can be seen" by not nen users. It means that you can create something. With Aura, you project something and make it with a determined shape and effects. In Materialization, you actually MAKE them. It's somehow the same as talking about a rock and its shadow. Materialization objects "Lives", sort of. In any case, every object that is from materialization needs to achieve some Emission in order to gather the right amount of aura for its creation and to function farther than the user. Same way an emitted object needs to be conjured in order to give it a special effect.

Also, Youpi fits perfectly in Intensification. He can "accelerate" his body growth and He controls that to make new shapes of his own body.

Hatsu can be used as a synonym of Nen Technique, just like people say objects "made of Nen" when the more correct would be "made of Aura".

Uriel
April 27, 2012, 10:02 AM
Nope, Hatus is no synonym of Nen Technique. Hatsu is a school, which completely different. Beware because there lies the mistakes (There was a HUUUGE discussion on this forum about Nen which had many interesting point of views. There is Level Believers and No Limit Believers, me belonging the last one which implies some other things as well. I highly recommend to read that thread completely in order to understand the deepness of the concept of Nen created by Togashi. Linkie (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/72895-About-Aura-Combat-How-Nen-Works))

MegamanX195
April 27, 2012, 09:09 PM
But Killua seems to imply so, at the Greed Island selection exam. Tsezguerra asks them to show their Ren, and he asks if he could show Hatsu instead.

Uriel
April 27, 2012, 09:54 PM
But Killua seems to imply so, at the Greed Island selection exam. Tsezguerra asks them to show their Ren, and he asks if he could show Hatsu instead.
Because Hatsu requires all the basic techniques. If you remember, Ren, Ten, Gyo, Zetsu and En are all basic forms. Hatsu is property. Gon also has shown Hatsu but in his case it was more subtle.

MegamanX195
April 27, 2012, 10:26 PM
It would be better to just say if he "could use a Nen technique" or something, though. If Hatsu really has only that meaning, then it would Killua would just show "a Nen school", which is just something weird to say.

Sea Hunter
April 28, 2012, 05:09 AM
Whatever nen technique you made even if you have more than one, the aura used for these techniques fall under Hatsu category, go back to Wing's explanation i'll quote him "Hatsu is the technique consisting of releasing the nen" in other words it gathers all the important aspects of nen and splits them into the 6 known group (reinforcement, materialization, etc..)

red these (buttom left panel) http://www.mangareader.net/207-14057-3/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-48.html
and this http://www.mangareader.net/207-14069-4/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-60.html

Hunter2323
May 01, 2012, 11:55 AM
Hatsu is which of the 6 schools you belong to where as Nen Technique is how you apply the different schools to create your special ability. I thought the confusion came from the Japanese word "Hatsu" can actually mean both things depending on how you write it.

As for Goreinu, he almost has to be emission as his nen beasts were separated from his body. He has to manipulate them from a distance. Besides Kurotopi, we have not seen any materialization user really be separated a significant distance from their object. And, Kurotopi seems to be 100% non-battle oriented with the added restrictions of only materializing things he touches with a time limit and no special properties. Obviously this does not include Kurapika who can only use Judgement Chain with Emperor Time (granting him the emission exception).

Many people use Knov as an example of Materialization users separating from their aura, but each door is always connected to his materialized object, the mansion. The biggest question about Knov is we have no idea where the mansion is and how it connects to him as Materialization users almost always have to be in contact with their object.

Knuckle is a confirmed Emission user. He lends his aura (which means it separates from the body). Potclean is definitely materialized, but because Potclean does not really do anything other than calculate and he has the lending aura restriction, the materialization is most likely simple for Knuckle.

Morau is probably a manipulator whose secondary type is emission. Yupi and Netero are definitely Enhancers.

Go back to Kurapika's teacher saying Enhancement has the best balance. I believe that Kastro creating a clone could only be done by an Enhancer as it requires everything but Transformation. He materializes another person, manipulates that clone, and that clone has to use Kastro's aura as well that is separated from his body (emission). Because of the complexity of the materialization (an actual human being) and the manipulation of another being from a distance (manipulation and emission), and you see why Wing believes Kastro wasted his Enhancement abilities.

Netero's focus is all about Enhancing his martial arts. Whether the Buddha statue is Emission or Materialization does not really matter as his restrictions (praying and 10 years of nothing but training) seem really strict. His manipulation use is also very strict as he must do the pose/form for the statue to follow.

The biggest difference between Emission and Materialization is Materialized objects are real. Anyone can see them, but more importantly, they cannot really be separated from the user. As soon as they are separated, the user needs to use Emission to keep it solid, and we know Materialization users have problems with detaching their auras from their body.

Emission and Manipulation go hand in hand because to manipulate and object/person, the user has to be able to do it from a distance which means their aura must leave their body. Shalnark's mobile antenna that controls people, Illumi's needles all have their nen infused and those objects then can be separated from the body which can then be used to control people.

Crap, I just wrote a ton. Sorry for the wall of text and hope it helps. Feel free to disagree or make counterarguments as I love discussing magic systems in fantasy settings.

MegamanX195
May 01, 2012, 09:53 PM
Hatsu is which of the 6 schools you belong to where as Nen Technique is how you apply the different schools to create your special ability. I thought the confusion came from the Japanese word "Hatsu" can actually mean both things depending on how you write it.

As for Goreinu, he almost has to be emission as his nen beasts were separated from his body. He has to manipulate them from a distance. Besides Kurotopi, we have not seen any materialization user really be separated a significant distance from their object. And, Kurotopi seems to be 100% non-battle oriented with the added restrictions of only materializing things he touches with a time limit and no special properties. Obviously this does not include Kurapika who can only use Judgement Chain with Emperor Time (granting him the emission exception).

Many people use Knov as an example of Materialization users separating from their aura, but each door is always connected to his materialized object, the mansion. The biggest question about Knov is we have no idea where the mansion is and how it connects to him as Materialization users almost always have to be in contact with their object.

Knuckle is a confirmed Emission user. He lends his aura (which means it separates from the body). Potclean is definitely materialized, but because Potclean does not really do anything other than calculate and he has the lending aura restriction, the materialization is most likely simple for Knuckle.

Morau is probably a manipulator whose secondary type is emission. Yupi and Netero are definitely Enhancers.

Go back to Kurapika's teacher saying Enhancement has the best balance. I believe that Kastro creating a clone could only be done by an Enhancer as it requires everything but Transformation. He materializes another person, manipulates that clone, and that clone has to use Kastro's aura as well that is separated from his body (emission). Because of the complexity of the materialization (an actual human being) and the manipulation of another being from a distance (manipulation and emission), and you see why Wing believes Kastro wasted his Enhancement abilities.

Netero's focus is all about Enhancing his martial arts. Whether the Buddha statue is Emission or Materialization does not really matter as his restrictions (praying and 10 years of nothing but training) seem really strict. His manipulation use is also very strict as he must do the pose/form for the statue to follow.

The biggest difference between Emission and Materialization is Materialized objects are real. Anyone can see them, but more importantly, they cannot really be separated from the user. As soon as they are separated, the user needs to use Emission to keep it solid, and we know Materialization users have problems with detaching their auras from their body.

Emission and Manipulation go hand in hand because to manipulate and object/person, the user has to be able to do it from a distance which means their aura must leave their body. Shalnark's mobile antenna that controls people, Illumi's needles all have their nen infused and those objects then can be separated from the body which can then be used to control people.

Crap, I just wrote a ton. Sorry for the wall of text and hope it helps. Feel free to disagree or make counterarguments as I love discussing magic systems in fantasy settings.

You forgot Genthru. He materialized a ton of bombs at once, and the distance between him and the bombs didn't seem to matter. Also, he was obviously very skilled at Manipulation, though I suppose this goes without saying.

Wing didn't mention Kastro's clone required Emission, so I suppose the distance between them was so short that, while he definitely had to use SOME emission, he didn't really have to use it THAT much. Goreinu's beasts are too similar to Kastro's to NOT be materialization. As soon as he was KO'ed, the beast disappeared (and Razor had to comment on that, meaning it wasn't obvious). It was stated that, even if he woke up, he wouldn't be in any state to be able to summon the beasts again, both phisically and mentally. Going back to Kastro, he had to be totally calm and focused to be able to summon his clone at will.

Razor's clones seemed to be totally independent, Razor even gave them voice/gesture signals sometimes, which wouldn't be needed if he was manipulating them like Goreinu, so it's possible that his clones didn't even need any Manipulation at all.

Goreinu probably doesn't need to be THAT focused because, if the beasts are really materialized, it's a safe assumption to think that his type is Materialization, so, he probably could have summoned his beasts if he were in Kastro's situation. He just wouldn't be able to do it after waking up from Razor's attack because of the damage it caused and, more than anything, because of the psychological trauma.

Also, I'm still not entirely sold on Hatsu referring only to the schools... didn't Wing say Hatsu was "releasing the aura", or something along those lines? I'm pretty sure any Nen technique would fall under that condition.

NoFreakingWay
May 02, 2012, 08:14 AM
You forgot Genthru. He materialized a ton of bombs at once, and the distance between him and the bombs didn't seem to matter. Also, he was obviously very skilled at Manipulation, though I suppose this goes without saying.

Wing didn't mention Kastro's clone required Emission, so I suppose the distance between them was so short that, while he definitely had to use SOME emission, he didn't really have to use it THAT much. Goreinu's beasts are too similar to Kastro's to NOT be materialization. As soon as he was KO'ed, the beast disappeared (and Razor had to comment on that, meaning it wasn't obvious). It was stated that, even if he woke up, he wouldn't be in any state to be able to summon the beasts again, both phisically and mentally. Going back to Kastro, he had to be totally calm and focused to be able to summon his clone at will.

Razor's clones seemed to be totally independent, Razor even gave them voice/gesture signals sometimes, which wouldn't be needed if he was manipulating them like Goreinu, so it's possible that his clones didn't even need any Manipulation at all.

Goreinu probably doesn't need to be THAT focused because, if the beasts are really materialized, it's a safe assumption to think that his type is Materialization, so, he probably could have summoned his beasts if he were in Kastro's situation. He just wouldn't be able to do it after waking up from Razor's attack because of the damage it caused and, more than anything, because of the psychological trauma.

Also, I'm still not entirely sold on Hatsu referring only to the schools... didn't Wing say Hatsu was "releasing the aura", or something along those lines? I'm pretty sure any Nen technique would fall under that condition.

Hey guys.

Some opinions:

About Gensuru: I think the reason Gensuru was able to Materialize the bombs from far away was that his two other buddies, Sabu and Bara, may have had a hand in it, i.e. one of them used Emission. The timers were probably Manipulation-based. So maybe one Sabu or Bara is a Manipulator and is strong enough to Emit real far or the Emitter is strong enough to create timers. Gensuru's main ability I think is actually Little Flower, so that gives the main component of the Countdown bombs. Remember that "Bomb Devil" is not one person but actually three.

About Kastro: Since Kastro is from Reinforcement which is adjacent to Emission he'll have no problem moving the Doppelganger away from him. His problem lies in the maintenance of the image (Materialization) and controlling it (Manipulation). Kastro is trying to be a jack-of-all-trades with Doppelganger, and it's ironic that he probably overlooked Transformation (maybe not, Tiger Fang has to be sharp, right?).

About Razor: I think the reason he's able to make his Devils move almost seamless is that he had the opportunity to train a lot and because of the low number of clones he was able to make them move very skillfully. They needed to be Manipulated, but the Devils were probably given very good built-in movements like Deep Purple Clones imitating Knuckle, i.e. it's not very obvious what command Morau gave them as opposed to the obvious pattern the lower-level smoke dolls had (create distance, pick up nearest object and throw at pursuer).

About Novu: I think he and his ability is Emission-based. The main point of his ability is distance, or creating distance using a space, which cleanly falls under Emission. If it was Materialization, then the focus would have been on an object that creates a space that really has nothing to do with distance. He won't be able to maintain the waypoints without the help of an Emitter, and the waypoints would have been visible.

About Netero: He's probably an Emitter or Reinforcer. If he was a Reinforcer then it's a shame he didn't seem to have a useful Transformation ability, something a master like him would not probably make a mistake of doing. Emission covers all of the needs of his abilities, having good Reinforcement and Manipulation support. He's probably an Emitter leaning towards Reinforcement. He may have minimized Manipulation training but who knows how many forms/styles Kannon had, it could've been a lot.

MegamanX195
May 02, 2012, 09:32 AM
Hey guys.

Some opinions:

About Gensuru: I think the reason Gensuru was able to Materialize the bombs from far away was that his two other buddies, Sabu and Bara, may have had a hand in it, i.e. one of them used Emission. The timers were probably Manipulation-based. So maybe one Sabu or Bara is a Manipulator and is strong enough to Emit real far or the Emitter is strong enough to create timers. Gensuru's main ability I think is actually Little Flower, so that gives the main component of the Countdown bombs. Remember that "Bomb Devil" is not one person but actually three.

About Kastro: Since Kastro is from Reinforcement which is adjacent to Emission he'll have no problem moving the Doppelganger away from him. His problem lies in the maintenance of the image (Materialization) and controlling it (Manipulation). Kastro is trying to be a jack-of-all-trades with Doppelganger, and it's ironic that he probably overlooked Transformation (maybe not, Tiger Fang has to be sharp, right?).

About Razor: I think the reason he's able to make his Devils move almost seamless is that he had the opportunity to train a lot and because of the low number of clones he was able to make them move very skillfully. They needed to be Manipulated, but the Devils were probably given very good built-in movements like Deep Purple Clones imitating Knuckle, i.e. it's not very obvious what command Morau gave them as opposed to the obvious pattern the lower-level smoke dolls had (create distance, pick up nearest object and throw at pursuer).

About Novu: I think he and his ability is Emission-based. The main point of his ability is distance, or creating distance using a space, which cleanly falls under Emission. If it was Materialization, then the focus would have been on an object that creates a space that really has nothing to do with distance. He won't be able to maintain the waypoints without the help of an Emitter, and the waypoints would have been visible.

About Netero: He's probably an Emitter or Reinforcer. If he was a Reinforcer then it's a shame he didn't seem to have a useful Transformation ability, something a master like him would not probably make a mistake of doing. Emission covers all of the needs of his abilities, having good Reinforcement and Manipulation support. He's probably an Emitter leaning towards Reinforcement. He may have minimized Manipulation training but who knows how many forms/styles Kannon had, it could've been a lot.

I don't think Sub or Bara had a hand in Genthru's Countdown. Abengane deduced that Genthru was extremely skilled in Materialization, Manipulation and Emission, and that's why he's definitely a very powerful fighter which they couldn't take head-on. Nothing seems to contradict that. After all, Koltopi's ability is also Materialization, and it doesn't seem to have any problems with keeping the objects away from him. My theory on that is that Materialization users, if extremely skilled, can use conditions to avoid the Emission issue. Both Genthru's and Koltopi's techniques certainly have their restrictions.

I think Goreinu's creatures are materialized because of the reasons I stated in the other post. Razor felt the need to comment that Goreinu's creatures disappeared when he was KO'ed because he was manipulating them and it wasn't obvious. I think Razor's creatures (and Emission Nen creatures in general) are independent, and require next to none Manipulation. I think if Razor was KO'ed, his creatures wouldn't (necessarily) disappear.

Also, based on Wing not mentioning Kastro's Emission skills (he wouldn't have any problems since he is a Reinforcer, but still, Wing didn't even mention it), I also have another theory: materialized Nen "creatures" -like Kastro's clone and Goreinu's gorillas- don't require Emission. That's because they're already made "real" away from the user. It'd be pretty ridiculous to be able to materialize creatures that would need to be stuck to you the whole time, and since Emission is the polar opposite from Materialization it would mean materializing Nen creatures would be a mistake.

Sea Hunter
May 02, 2012, 10:45 AM
Hatsu is which of the 6 schools you belong to where as Nen Technique is how you apply the different schools to create your special ability. I thought the confusion came from the Japanese word "Hatsu" can actually mean both things depending on how you write it.

As for Goreinu, he almost has to be emission as his nen beasts were separated from his body. He has to manipulate them from a distance. Besides Kurotopi, we have not seen any materialization user really be separated a significant distance from their object. And, Kurotopi seems to be 100% non-battle oriented with the added restrictions of only materializing things he touches with a time limit and no special properties. Obviously this does not include Kurapika who can only use Judgement Chain with Emperor Time (granting him the emission exception).

Many people use Knov as an example of Materialization users separating from their aura, but each door is always connected to his materialized object, the mansion. The biggest question about Knov is we have no idea where the mansion is and how it connects to him as Materialization users almost always have to be in contact with their object.

Knuckle is a confirmed Emission user. He lends his aura (which means it separates from the body). Potclean is definitely materialized, but because Potclean does not really do anything other than calculate and he has the lending aura restriction, the materialization is most likely simple for Knuckle.

Morau is probably a manipulator whose secondary type is emission. Yupi and Netero are definitely Enhancers.

Go back to Kurapika's teacher saying Enhancement has the best balance. I believe that Kastro creating a clone could only be done by an Enhancer as it requires everything but Transformation. He materializes another person, manipulates that clone, and that clone has to use Kastro's aura as well that is separated from his body (emission). Because of the complexity of the materialization (an actual human being) and the manipulation of another being from a distance (manipulation and emission), and you see why Wing believes Kastro wasted his Enhancement abilities.

Netero's focus is all about Enhancing his martial arts. Whether the Buddha statue is Emission or Materialization does not really matter as his restrictions (praying and 10 years of nothing but training) seem really strict. His manipulation use is also very strict as he must do the pose/form for the statue to follow.

The biggest difference between Emission and Materialization is Materialized objects are real. Anyone can see them, but more importantly, they cannot really be separated from the user. As soon as they are separated, the user needs to use Emission to keep it solid, and we know Materialization users have problems with detaching their auras from their body.

Emission and Manipulation go hand in hand because to manipulate and object/person, the user has to be able to do it from a distance which means their aura must leave their body. Shalnark's mobile antenna that controls people, Illumi's needles all have their nen infused and those objects then can be separated from the body which can then be used to control people.

Crap, I just wrote a ton. Sorry for the wall of text and hope it helps. Feel free to disagree or make counterarguments as I love discussing magic systems in fantasy settings.

For first bolded part, you don't seem to understand the difference between emitted and materialized beasts, for emission pre orders habe to be provided for the beasts to act or react, we saw nothing of that in gorain's case, all we saw is that he directly controls them (switching himself with one of them and switching Razer with the other) done under his direct control which equals manipulation, and as i said before if his beasts were emitted they wouldn't disappear once he got knocked out.

Second bolded part,, Kastro is an Enhancer and one of the reasons he lost is because he chose a Materialization technique (his clone) instead of sticking to the default category he belongs to. Meaning if Kastro was from the Materialization group his clone technique would be multiple times stronger and more efficient to use, and it has absolutly nothing to do with Enhancement.

About the Bomber trio what i understood is Count Down requires all three categories to be released , so i'm guessing while Gensuru is the main user, he can plant it on a target but not detonate it at will, without the other 2 the bomb will keep counting down till it explodes, that's what i understood when they said bomber all 3 of them not just Gensuru.

NoFreakingWay
May 03, 2012, 06:47 AM
I don't think Sub or Bara had a hand in Genthru's Countdown. Abengane deduced that Genthru was extremely skilled in Materialization, Manipulation and Emission, and that's why he's definitely a very powerful fighter which they couldn't take head-on. Nothing seems to contradict that. After all, Koltopi's ability is also Materialization, and it doesn't seem to have any problems with keeping the objects away from him. My theory on that is that Materialization users, if extremely skilled, can use conditions to avoid the Emission issue. Both Genthru's and Koltopi's techniques certainly have their restrictions.

I think Goreinu's creatures are materialized because of the reasons I stated in the other post. Razor felt the need to comment that Goreinu's creatures disappeared when he was KO'ed because he was manipulating them and it wasn't obvious. I think Razor's creatures (and Emission Nen creatures in general) are independent, and require next to none Manipulation. I think if Razor was KO'ed, his creatures wouldn't (necessarily) disappear.

Also, based on Wing not mentioning Kastro's Emission skills (he wouldn't have any problems since he is a Reinforcer, but still, Wing didn't even mention it), I also have another theory: materialized Nen "creatures" -like Kastro's clone and Goreinu's gorillas- don't require Emission. That's because they're already made "real" away from the user. It'd be pretty ridiculous to be able to materialize creatures that would need to be stuck to you the whole time, and since Emission is the polar opposite from Materialization it would mean materializing Nen creatures would be a mistake.

Nothing contradicts Genthru was skilled at Materialization, Manipulation and Emission except for the fact that when you are a Materialization user you will suck at Emission. Kurotopi's objects are limited by the fact that they don't last beyond 24 hours, so they can't be expected to be carried very far from the user.

But still the main point of Goreinu's gorillas were that they were maintained far from from him and they were pretty independent. Some things a Materialization user can't really do. Add to that that the special ability of the gorillas were to exchange places with their targets - something that pretty much requires Emission because of the distance involved.

Doesn't help your argument that Wing didn't mention Kastro's Emission skills. It should be common sense at this point that you are going to have good affinity with Emission skills when you're a Reinforcement user. Just because Wing didn't say it doesn't mean Kastro didn't have to use Emission when he clearly needed it at the very least. What helped him was that he didn't have to permanently Materialize the Doppelganger all the time he needed to use it - he just made it appear when he needed to use it.

If it was ridiculous for materialized items to be stuck to you the whole time then why did Kurapika had to mention that he needed to use Emission to materialize his chains stuck on targets that are extremely far away from him (Paku, Kuroro)?

Sabu and Bara's part on Countdown is more likely not limited to getting a sooner explosion because a Materializer basically sucks at maintaining things from far away. Abengane did not know there were two other guys involved with Countdown so he thought Gensuru was good at both Materialization and Emission which is not a good way to train Hatsu at all.

About Netero (2): If Netero was Reinforcement, it would be quite foolish to develop an ultimate technique (Zero) that isn't based off of it, since Zero is clearly an Emission blast. There's a huge drop in power. Even if there are huge Mystery Point bonuses given by pouring all your aura into that blast, there's still a clear advantage in just using a Reinforcement-based ultimate Hatsu technique. I'm pretty sure Netero took that into consideration.

Also, 10 years of training non-stop is not a restriction for Kannon. Netero just followed the natural path of learning Nen, or, "taking our time", as Wing said in Chapter 48 page 3.

Additionally, here is an interesting bit in how I think Netero formulated the Shingen way of learning Nen, and eventually, Kannon.

We all know about the four basic Nen skills, Ten, Zetsu, Ren, Hatsu - as mentioned in order by Zushi in Chapter 46 page 7 and Wing in page 9 of the same chapter.

Now, observe a future chapter: Chapter 265 pages 4-5.

On page 5 we see Netero doing the cycle he goes through before releasing the punch. In my translation it says: Preparation, Worship, Prayer, Readying, and the Thrust.

If we align the basic Nen skills and the cyclce Netero uses, we find that they are roughly the same.

Preparation and Worship stages roughly coincide with Ten.
Prayer roughly coincide with Zetsu.
Readying roughly coincide with Ren.
The Thrust roughly coincide with Hatsu.

By consolidating all of this into a system he basically hit upon the Shingen-style Nen teaching.

By repetition of this cycle Netero has come up with his Hatsu, Kannon, which appears only after a punch, or, a 'Thrust' has been released.

We can clearly see that in one cycle moving towards the release of even one Thrust or the Inflammation of Spirit, Netero has encapsulated the whole Shingen training program.

We can clearly see that through this rigorous cycle for a decade, Netero has effectively erased the need for a "restriction".

And in this light, we can see that the whole cycle of releasing a Thrust is not a "restriction", but a way to make oneself "feel better", similar to how Gon has to scream the words "Jan Ken xxx" before release.

MegamanX195
May 03, 2012, 07:40 AM
Well, if Koltopi's objects are limited by the fact that they only last for 24 hours, Genthru's are "limited" by the fact that the bombs blow up in a few hours (corresponding to the target's heartbeat). Maybe Genthru used the restriction as an advantage. Abengane didn't seem to think it was impossible to do what Genthru did, only that it would require very good skills, which is precisely what he had. It would be pretty weird if Sub or Bara, both out of the game, in another continent, would be able to have a hand in the technique's Emission at that time. Remember, the bombs weren't materialized before, they only materialize after Genthru explains his ability to the targets (as Abengane commented that Genthru "Just materialized over 40 bombs").

I didn't say it was ridiculous for materialized items to be stuck to you the whole time, I said it was ridiculous for materialized creatures to be stuck to you the whole time. Wing didn't say it was totally unthinkable to materialize a clone, he just said it was unthinkable to do so as a Reinforcement user.

Let's suppose a Materialization user decides to materialize a clone. Kurapika said his chain lost potency and accuracy as soon as it left his hand to the point of being borderline useless, so one can assume the same would happen if a Materialization user were to materialize a clone, even more so because a clone is far more complex than a chain. It'd be pretty ridiculous to materialize a clone and have it stuck to you the whole time to be of any use, don't you agree?

Putting the 2 facts together, it means materializing creatures (not objects) requires no Emission. And that's not overpowered either, because it was never said you could "see" through the eyes of materialized creatures, meaning that as soon as it left your field of vision you wouldn't be able to use it to do any good.

Sea Hunter
May 03, 2012, 07:40 AM
Nothing contradicts Genthru was skilled at Materialization, Manipulation and Emission except for the fact that when you are a Materialization user you will suck at Emission. Kurotopi's objects are limited by the fact that they don't last beyond 24 hours, so they can't be expected to be carried very far from the user.

But still the main point of Goreinu's gorillas were that they were maintained far from from him and they were pretty independent. Some things a Materialization user can't really do. Add to that that the special ability of the gorillas were to exchange places with their targets - something that pretty much requires Emission because of the distance involved.

Doesn't help your argument that Wing didn't mention Kastro's Emission skills. It should be common sense at this point that you are going to have good affinity with Emission skills when you're a Reinforcement user. Just because Wing didn't say it doesn't mean Kastro didn't have to use Emission when he clearly needed it at the very least. What helped him was that he didn't have to permanently Materialize the Doppelganger all the time he needed to use it - he just made it appear when he needed to use it.

If it was ridiculous for materialized items to be stuck to you the whole time then why did Kurapika had to mention that he needed to use Emission to materialize his chains stuck on targets that are extremely far away from him (Paku, Kuroro)?

Sabu and Bara's part on Countdown is more likely not limited to getting a sooner explosion because a Materializer basically sucks at maintaining things from far away. Abengane did not know there were two other guys involved with Countdown so he thought Gensuru was good at both Materialization and Emission which is not a good way to train Hatsu at all.

About Netero (2): If Netero was Reinforcement, it would be quite foolish to develop an ultimate technique (Zero) that isn't based off of it, since Zero is clearly an Emission blast. There's a huge drop in power. Even if there are huge Mystery Point bonuses given by pouring all your aura into that blast, there's still a clear advantage in just using a Reinforcement-based ultimate Hatsu technique. I'm pretty sure Netero took that into consideration.

Also, 10 years of training non-stop is not a restriction for Kannon. Netero just followed the natural path of learning Nen, or, "taking our time", as Wing said in Chapter 48 page 3.

Additionally, here is an interesting bit in how I think Netero formulated the Shingen way of learning Nen, and eventually, Kannon.

We all know about the four basic Nen skills, Ten, Zetsu, Ren, Hatsu - as mentioned in order by Zushi in Chapter 46 page 7 and Wing in page 9 of the same chapter.

Now, observe a future chapter: Chapter 265 pages 4-5.

On page 5 we see Netero doing the cycle he goes through before releasing the punch. In my translation it says: Preparation, Worship, Prayer, Readying, and the Thrust.

If we align the basic Nen skills and the cyclce Netero uses, we find that they are roughly the same.

Preparation and Worship stages roughly coincide with Ten.
Prayer roughly coincide with Zetsu.
Readying roughly coincide with Ren.
The Thrust roughly coincide with Hatsu.

By consolidating all of this into a system he basically hit upon the Shingen-style Nen teaching.

By repetition of this cycle Netero has come up with his Hatsu, Kannon, which appears only after a punch, or, a 'Thrust' has been released.

We can clearly see that in one cycle moving towards the release of even one Thrust or the Inflammation of Spirit, Netero has encapsulated the whole Shingen training program.

We can clearly see that through this rigorous cycle for a decade, Netero has effectively erased the need for a "restriction".

And in this light, we can see that the whole cycle of releasing a Thrust is not a "restriction", but a way to make oneself "feel better", similar to how Gon has to scream the words "Jan Ken xxx" before release.

I wish people would stop making things up and claiming it's from the manga, WHERE in the manga did it say materialized objects can't be far from the user?? for some reason most people seem to mix up what each type does, as for Kurapica's chain, he needs Emission to put rules on his target so the chains acts by itself if the target disobeys his rules, NOT because he needs Emission to create the chain itself. i will say again, nowhere in the MANGA was it shown that materialized objects can't be far from the user, in Kurotopi's case many of his Materlized items were far from him (how long they last is irrelevant to the subject, as 24 is more than enough for any battle situation).

Quoting you again "Sabu and Bara's part on Countdown is more likely not limited to getting a sooner explosion because a Materializer basically sucks at maintaining things from far away", again speculation which have 0 facts from the manga.

Sticking to what we've seen so far in the manga regarding summoned beasts only this is my understanding:
1. using Emission alone: Pre orders can be gives including how to react in certain situations plus generals rules of movements etc (Razor's beasts as an example).
2. using Manipulation alone: Creating aura beasts with no physical bodies plus Direct control by the user in all times (a good example of this in the manga was one of the Nostrado guards who created dolls, used them to attack Kurapica and co at the mansion and another use at the auction where he died,named Tochino i think?)
3. using Materialization + Manipulation: you create actual bodies with Materialization and use manipulation to control them.
Seeing that Materialization users who chose to summon beats as a technique of the choice almost always have to have a good level of Manipulation.
4. a mix of types like in Morau's case where he applied different uses for the same ability.

Regarding Gensuru i think like many other stated that high level abilities consist of applying more than 1 category in them, for Netero i typed before i'm guessing he's mainly an Emitter with max Reinforcement with respect to his level, but that's an interesting way to look at it the application of all the basic skills into his prayer cycle i like it :^_^

I love this complex system it eats your mind thinking about the different sets, rules and applications which we've seen, i don't think i ever enjoyed a battle system anywhere near NEN system, it's just so breath taking and it opens up tens of possibilities for a single ability, so no wonder we'll have 10 different opinions for a single technique :^_^

I'm actually also looking forward to the announced movie, even though the characters and story won't be related to the manga but still to see new nen abilities and in combat no doubt makes me excited about it, though the contents wont be canon but the abilities themselves belonging to which group will most certainly be compatible with the manga, the animators will probably ask Togashi sensei for general guidance on this subject. so some abilities in the movie might help us understand some abilities in the manga better...........unless the setting for the movie is before heaven's arena that would suck :-_-

Hunter2323
May 04, 2012, 12:47 PM
Gensuru was part of a 3 man team for Bomb Devil. Gensuru is most likely Materialization to materialize that many bombs. The other 2 are most likely Manipulation and Emission as those are the main types used for the technique. You say that the other two have nothing to do with the bombs, then what purpose do they serve? Why would he call Bomb Devil a 3 man team if they have nothing to do with the materialized bombs? Why would he need them to "release" if they have no other part in the ability? Also, to activate the bombs, Gensuru had strict conditions of basically completely explaining his ability and giving the target a way of deactivating the bomb.

Netero is Enhancement because their was a chart for him stating his type during the Palace Invasion Arc (used after one of the hiatuses). I do concede that the 10 years is not a restriction so much as pure training.

Materialization and Transformation users were stated to have trouble once the aura detached from their body (Hisoka's ability explanation on page I am still looking for and Kurapika's explanation on Chapter 108 pg 5). One of the profiles of Hisoka's abilities stated that if his Bungee Gum was not connected to him, it only had a range of 10 meters whereas if it is connected to him it is much greater.

Kurapika (Chapter 108, pg 5), when explaining his abilities to Gon/Killua/Leorio, stated that using Judgement Chain is restricted to his Emperor Time state as it mainly uses Emission and Manipulation because the chain is remote (not connected to him) and he imposes a condition. I've already addressed Kurotopi who I agree seems to be an exception.

I thought the manga clearly stated Knov was Materialization when explaining his "Mansion and Key." Since he is Materialization, I feel like my previous explanation is the only one that works.

Back to Goreinu, his gorillas were throwing the ball back and forth with him so he was definitely manipulating them from a distance. Also, he seemed fairly confident in the dodgeball match, so if he was a Materialization user, why would he have such confidence to go around throwing the ball (Enhancement's and Emission's strength). Finally, his teleportation ability switches the place two creatures (gorilla and another person). Both are not connected to him, so again he needs to use Emission.

The thing that makes me say Materialization users can't really use Emission is the fact that it balances out all of the categories. As soon as you can give special properties to something, and that something can separate from your body, Emission is basically useless. Emission is projecting your aura, so as long as the aura is not connected to your body (example Hisoka using Bungee Gum on Kastro's body and cards) Emission is necessary. Therefore, if you materialize something made of nen (Kurapika's chain, Kastro's double) and it is not connected to the body, it stands to reason that Emission is required to keep it materialized.

The one character who I've always wondered about is Bonorenolf. He seems pretty confident in hand-to-hand ability, yet he materialized a couple of pretty handy things. My guess is he is Materialization with the dancing/music restrictions making his ability much stronger. Other thoughts.

TheAmericandream
May 04, 2012, 03:49 PM
Hmm, Bonolenov's really intriguing to me. I think he's conjuration, but he's just that high of a level of Nen user. I mean he ranks higher then Nobunaga at the arm wrestling doesn't he? I really doubt he's an enhancer so that's impressive to me. I mean I don't know what else summoning giant things would be beyond conjuring.

MegamanX195
May 04, 2012, 11:20 PM
It's still quite weird to say that Sub and Bara, who were out of the island at the time, somehow be able to affect someone else's ability. Remember, the bombs were materialized at the time Genthru explained the ability (Abengane commented that he "must be very skilled to be able to materialize over 40 bombs at once...").

While I don't like discussing fiction in general like this, on a story-telling way, the "smart" characters (Kurapika, Abengane) always seem to "deduce" things correctly to make it easier to convey it to the reader. If Sub and Bara really had anything to do with Countdown's Manipulation and Emission - again, while out of the island - it would have been brought up at some point, or at least implied to be the case. Remember, they told them the "Bomb Devil" was comprised of 3 people to make them believe in the false story that the 3 of them were needed to de-activate the bombs.

And Goreinu had confidence in throwing the ball precisely because of his ability. Also, I don't think you need to be "focusing" all the time to mantain anything emitted, just at the time of the Emission, otherwise, when you passed out or went too far the aura would instantly vanish (though, as I said, I don't think it's the case with Goreinu's ability, as I don't think it's Emission). There's a more important point: the difference between Razor's emitted creatures and Goreinu's (supposedly) emitted creatures. It was clear Razor was not manipulating his creatures (he emitted them with all of their "minds" already made-up), just like Sachimono Tochino way back (he just gave them all a very simple order). Both different from Goreinu's case.

Hunter2323
May 05, 2012, 05:09 AM
Sub and Bara's distance had nothing to do with the activation of the ability. The conditions were met so the bombs activated. If Sub and Bara's ability was not related to Gensuru's why would they not use their abilities in their fights against Killua and Biscuit?
I agree that Abegane was incredibly smart and really understood Nen logic pretty well, but his assumption was based off the explanation Gensuru gave him which did not include that they were a team of 3. Abegane's analysis was wrong simply because he was working off incomplete information (Chapter 143 page 8).

You said the difference between Goreinu's gorillas and Razor's devils is that Razor was not manipulating them. I don't understand your meaning, especially if your meaning is Razor was not using Manipulation. He would have to be manipulating them or have given them manipulation commands otherwise they simply wouldn't move. Goreinu is also manipulating his gorillas (ie he gives them a manipulation command).

While I don't like using illustrations as an example, Razor (Chapter 161 page 4) summoning his devils and Goreinu (Chapter 161 page 11) summoning his gorillas are strikingly similar. There is also the fact that Goreinu (Chapter 161 page 11) says, "It's the same thing as you're doing. No objections right?"

My argument is that to keep the beasts materialized at a distance from the user requires Emission. Could Goreinu be Materialization who's materialized objects are kept at a distance from his body? Maybe. I just feel that being Emission is a more logical explanation to his ability because the aura is separated from his body and requires a good deal of Manipulation.

MegamanX195
May 05, 2012, 12:17 PM
Sub and Bara's distance had nothing to do with the activation of the ability. The conditions were met so the bombs activated. If Sub and Bara's ability was not related to Gensuru's why would they not use their abilities in their fights against Killua and Biscuit?
I agree that Abegane was incredibly smart and really understood Nen logic pretty well, but his assumption was based off the explanation Gensuru gave him which did not include that they were a team of 3. Abegane's analysis was wrong simply because he was working off incomplete information (Chapter 143 page 8).

You said the difference between Goreinu's gorillas and Razor's devils is that Razor was not manipulating them. I don't understand your meaning, especially if your meaning is Razor was not using Manipulation. He would have to be manipulating them or have given them manipulation commands otherwise they simply wouldn't move. Goreinu is also manipulating his gorillas (ie he gives them a manipulation command).

While I don't like using illustrations as an example, Razor (Chapter 161 page 4) summoning his devils and Goreinu (Chapter 161 page 11) summoning his gorillas are strikingly similar. There is also the fact that Goreinu (Chapter 161 page 11) says, "It's the same thing as you're doing. No objections right?"

My argument is that to keep the beasts materialized at a distance from the user requires Emission. Could Goreinu be Materialization who's materialized objects are kept at a distance from his body? Maybe. I just feel that being Emission is a more logical explanation to his ability because the aura is separated from his body and requires a good deal of Manipulation.

On the illustration issue, the sound effect used is slightly different, and Goreinu's beasts didn't seem to "come out of the ground". But, like you, I don't like using those as examples, so let's just forget it.

Neither Sub nor Bara had to use their abilities against Killua and Biske. Both were underestimating their respective opponents until it was too late, and/or they simply didn't have the chance to use them. Maybe they were just Enhancers and didn't have any special technique. There are several possible explanations.

On the distance issue, it would be OK if the bombs simply were there all the time and simply "booted up" after Genthru explained his ability. Problem is, the bombs were materialized at that time, as said by Abengane, who commented that Genthru was good enough to materialize over 40 bombs at once. I don't think people who are on another continent could somehow influence one's Materialization like that.

What I mean is that Razor's creatures were "independent", while Goreinu's were not. If Razor were to be KO'ed, his creatures wouldn't disappear, while if Goreinu were to be KO'ed (like he was), his would disappear. Evidence for this is when Razor commented that Goreinu's creatures vanished when they were KO'ed, meaning they were controlled by the user. More subtle evidence of the difference is on the fact that Razor was show doing signs to his creatures (which wouldn't be necessary if they were being controlled), and on Razor's "judge-creature", which definitely seemed fully independent.

Also, to reinforce the Goreinu = Materialization side, Materialization is the school which specializes in creating things with conditions/special attributes. Goreinu's creatures clearly had special attributes (teleportation), while Razor's or Sachimono Tochino's creatures did not.

Uriel
May 05, 2012, 07:56 PM
A thing must be said here. Goreinu and Razor are too far away from each other to compare. Let's remember that Razor can even compare to Reinforcement users with quite ease and stopped a ball with his hands in a second while Gon took a lot to charge the latest attack.
Goreinu, while competent, was at the level of Tzetsugera. In which I think Gon and Killua are currently btw. Just an estimation on my part anyway.

Hunter2323
May 06, 2012, 04:10 AM
For the Bomb Devil, I feel like we just need to agree to disagree. We both are seeing the same things and just coming to vastly different conclusions. To me, if Gensuru's Countdown ability were 100% his, there would be no point in mentioning that Bomb Devil is a 3 man team, no point in needing all 3 together to trigger the bombs early, and no point in needing all 3 together to be able to defuse the bombs.

I agree that when comparing Razor and Goreinu that the sheer difference in aura level, aura mastery, and skill must be accounted for. This is why I am more convinced that Razor and Goreinu are both Emission. Razor's devils are not acting independently, they simply have much more advanced manipulation commands put into them. Goreinu's Emission and Manipulation level are most definitely lower than Razor's. So, the fact that Goreinu's gorillas can't handle complex commands is more due to the fact that his Manipulation level and skill can't handle giving them more complicated orders. Razor has more devils that can handle more complicated manipulation orders while Goreinu chose less gorillas but with the ability to teleport. From my perspective, Goreinu's ability and Razor's ability are extremely similar (which is why he said to Razor, "It's the same thing you are doing.")

In regards to Materialization giving things special properties, the only property the gorillas have (that we know about) is teleportation. The Greed Island Boxer and Leorio, two confirmed Emission guys, are the only ones who have done any type of teleportation. For me, the gorillas ability is just building on those concepts. And these concepts, in my opinion, are not possible for a Materialization user (with 40% Emission) to perform.

People may point out that Knov, who is Materialization, can teleport, but he is not moving instantly. He is traveling through his nen mansion.

I am not arguing that Materialization users can't use emission, or that their objects must always be connected to them. I am arguing that if you want your materialized object to be able to work at any type of distance, you need fairly harsh restrictions. First example would be Kurapika's Judgement Chain is only usable with Emperor Time. Second example would be the fish siblings using two people for the darts game and still needing to stick the pin on their opponent (and being Chimera Ants).

MegamanX195
May 06, 2012, 08:21 AM
Yeah, we're not going anywhere on the Bomb Devil issue.

Razor commented "Just as I thought... the creatures disappeared when he was KO'ed, which means they were not independent, but controlled by the user" or something along those lines. Thinking backwards, that would imply that there CAN be Nen creatures that are independent and stay even if the user is KO'ed, right? We've seen that that's not the case with Materialization creature (Kastro's clone. Even if he was a Materialization user, his clone requires Manipulation all the time to be commanded, so it would still vanish), so it makes me think that it could only be Emission's case.

On the difference of level issue, as I think Goreinu is a Materializer, I'll assume he is an Emission user for now. Seeing as even Sachimono Tochino (who I think is below Goreinu's level) could emit 11 weak creatures and give them simple orders, I'd say it's safe to assume Goreinu probably would be able to emit 5-6 (relatively) strong creatures.

I think Razor only uses Manipulation at the time of the "summoning" to give some orders to the Nen creatures(play with me, be the judge, etc.), and every other time they're independent (and that's why Razor is shown doing signs to communicate with them, which wouldn't be necessary if he was manipulating them), while Goreinu's are being manipulated actively all the time (and that's why they vanished when he was KO'ed).

NoFreakingWay
May 07, 2012, 06:26 AM
Emission: What's it doing in a Materialization explanation?

If Emission is irrelevant in Materializing nen-objects, then why do they keep getting mentioned together in explanations for two Materialized items that can be brought far away from the user (Countdown bombs and Kurapika's chains)?

See Abengane's observation for Countdown (Ch143 p7-8)
See Kurapika's explanation for his chain (Ch108 p5-6)

Based on what we hear from them on those pages, they are not just deducing anything, but they are explaining the requirements for such a Materialized item to be maintained from afar.

From what we hear from them, there are three things that need to be there for Materialized items to work from afar:

1. You have to have a good Emission score
2. Your Materialized item must not be severed from the energy source - the user itself - through some kind of 'cable' that connects the two
3. You have to have some kind of heavy restriction that makes up for a sucky Emission score and the absence of a 'cable'

"...if it's separated from it's fastening point, it loses almost all of its energy and force", as taken from Kurapika.

Both Kurapika and Abengane express the need for Emission to explain how the abilities they explain work. If Emission wasn't needed at all, I would like to ask again, what is it there for?

#3 explains why Kurotopi put the 24-hour restriction on his items. This is basically an admission that he does not have the power to maintain all the items he can conceivably Materialize with his ability and expect them to be maintained even when they are taken far from him.

#2 is the reason most Materialized items are Materialized very near the Materialization user; in almost every other case the Materialized item is maintained on the user's hand (Deme-chan, Kurapika's chains).

#1 is the reason why Kurapika and Abengane had to mention Emission to explain a Materialization ability.

---

Sabu and Bara: What are they there for?

There is also some argument that Gensuru's conditions are enough for him to maintain a number of bombs even from afar. That's not true.

Gensuru needs sabu and Bara for Countdown. They are not just there for "Release".

Consider Chapters 143-144.

Think about it: If Sabu and Bara weren't needed at all, what is stopping Gensuru to simply add another restriction to COuntdown so that he could use "Release" on his own?

And let's get our facts straight. Chapter 144 basically nails down the fact that Sabu and Bara needed to be there for "Release". They weren't just bluffing that they're Bomber members. What they were bluffing about is the keyword (Release) and its purpose (bomb defusal). Sabu and Bara were doing that lame thumb kiss with Gensuru to use Release.

Another question - what would be weirder:

A Materialization user maintaining bombs a continent away

or

An Emission user who just helps maintain bombs another user Materialized a continent away

Let's not even consider that the Emission-using accomplice might have been using potent restrictions that help boost his own Emission score, and that the bombs will only last a few minutes.

---

It's not a problem for Novu to make a Mansion and Key by just using Emission, for the same reason that it certainly was easy for Morau (probably Manipulation) to make Morau and Knuckle clones, cages, a leash, and a levitating surfboard. These things certainly needed Emission. The leash was even connected to Morau, so that won't stop Novu from using Emission-based keys tied to his wrist. But maintaining portals between vast distances is a problem for a Novu based on Materialization.

Let's also read Ch 246, where Hide and Seek was introduced.

The ability is mentioned as a teleportation ability. Though the Mansion and Key are very important things for the Hatsu, the real focus is on going from one location to another by way of entrances and exits that may span a very huge distance. If he used a different approach it would have definitely been Materialization. Novu doesn't even seemingly use a powerful restriction to maintain the portals from afar - definitely making it things hard for a Materialization user.

There really isn't any Hatsu type that is more connected to distance that Emission.

---

Goreinu's gorillas are also Emission for the same reason I think Novu's ability is Emission. The gorillas are basically meat-puppets/waypoints for respective targets. Both Novu and Goreinu's abilities have functions tied to near-instant transportation. Take off the mansion and the key from Hide and Seek, and take off the gorillas - what do you have left? Transportation. They're just like some movement-type cards from Greed Island like Leap and Eliminate. Both are Emission-based; Razor maintains cards like these (Ch145 p8). The Eliminate card even mentions "teleport" on it.

---

Bonorenolf's ability could be Emission or Transformation. Emission in the sense that he just summons things that are just there to damage stuff - something Emitted things are good at. Transformation because the ability is somehow similar to Pain Packer - it transforms something that is not Nen (like pain or melody) to a Nen-thing that causes much damage.

---

Where's the page that shows Netero was Reinforcement? If he really was, then it's a definite shame that he insisted on using Emission for his Hatsu and his ultimate. Just probably shows how hard headed he is.

Hunter2323
May 07, 2012, 10:47 AM
I am in 100% agreement on Bomber being a 3 man team, most likely with Gensuru being Materialization, and the other 2 Manipulation and Emission. No argument here.

Netero's chart is given in the "Evolution of power hexagram" topic in the forum. I can't read Japanese but the Chinese characters (Japanese's Kanji) under his type say 强化 which is the same as Gon's and means Strength/Power/Enhance in Chinese. Kanji and Chinese characters almost always share the same meaning.

For Knov, going by Chapter 246 pages 4 and 5, it says that his nen mansion is a nen space. To me, nen space means that it is the same thing that Zitoh (the Cheetah Ant) did to Morel, and Zitoh is most definitely a Materialization user. Also, it says that as soon as something/someone enters through one of his portals, the portal automatically closes, so he is not really keeping too many nen portals open away from his body. This to me points to a Materialization user. Notice that when he was drawing the circles that he didn't go through (the ones he would have to separate from), he took a much longer time and used some type of nen writing whereas in 246 he just touches the ground and drops through immediately. Also, his nen type was listed in the Guidebook as 具現。 In Chinese the characters literally mean "tool now", and this type is listed for Kite and Kurapika as well.

Check out the topic "Evolution of Power Hexagram." It gives scans from the guidebook with lots of type info (which is why Gensuru is confirmed as Materialization). Of course Goreinu was never a major enough character to get a profile.

Feitang's Pain Packer, in my opinion, doesn't transform the pain into heat. The pain/damage seems to be his condition. Then he materializes a suit for protection for whatever he changes his aura into. In this case, his aura had the properties of extreme heat. He said it was weak because "you get what you give." If the Scorpion Ant had hurt him more, the condition for his ability would have been higher, creating a more powerful ability.

For this reason, I think Bono is Materialization. He materialized battle armor with a quick song and then needed a more complicated dance/song to drop "Jupiter." The dancing/music of his body holes seems to be his condition that allows him to materialize objects.

Uriel
May 07, 2012, 11:17 AM
I agree with NFW, except I think that Novu IS materialization. Because the focus here is the Mansion itself, which is nowhere and everywhere. As a Nen Space I think it's the main focus of the technique.

And I think it's Feitan who says that He transforms pain into damage :O

Sea Hunter
May 08, 2012, 08:31 PM
For Feitan,we saw he got really pissed off when he decided to use his pain cracker, afterwords he said "if you had damaged me more you would have died a less painful death", this could be interpreted as:

1. The more pain he takes the more powerful his ability is.
2. the more pissed off he is the stronger aura he uses thus the more powerful the ability becomes.

Any of the 2 can be right based on what we've seen.

As for Bomber, if Sabu and Bara are needed for every ascpect of "Count Down" how come Gensuru can place it on a target while the other 2 aren't around and they don't even know he's using it? nope we haven't seen anything in the manga indicating someone can lend his aura to another to use it as he wants, so i'm still with my original opinion that Sabu and Bara's use is only for "Release".

MegamanX195
May 08, 2012, 09:29 PM
Yeah, agreed.

Most importantly, though, Abengane didn't say "It's impossible to be that damn good at Emission, Manipulation and Materialization! He must be a God or something!" he said "That guy has a level of Nen that allows him to use in a sophisticated way Emission, Manipulation and Materialization. That added to his physical agility... even if we all were to go after him, we would be taken down by that "Little Flower" of his." That was all to show the reader how good, skilled and outright dangerous Genthru was. In hindsight, anyone would have simply thought "...wait. He was not that good! Those 2 companions of his helped too! Haha!"

Also, they had deduced he had companions. If it was so easy to have a "shared ability" like that, Abengane (or someone) surely would have mentioned something along the lines of "It's probably it's, on the very least, a 3 man group. An Emission user, a Manipulation user, and Genthru himself being the Materialization user, proved by the fact that he was the one who clearly materialized the bombs." , but nothing of the sort was even hinted at. Actually, never was someone, somehow, capable of somehow influencing someone else's ability simply by "existing". Does it mean that if Sabu or Bara had been killed the ability simply "wouldn't work", because Sabu or Bara's Nen was adding to Genthru's ability because they "exist"? What if Sabu or Bara were sleeping, or KO'ed, or out of aura? It just... doesn't add up.

And on the Emission/Materialization issue, let's take a different approach. What if a Materialization user tried to materialize a clone? The clone would HAVE to be better in some way. Wing didn't mention that "materializing creatures is stupid." or anything like that, so it's supposedly a valid idea. Would the Materialiation user be able to create a "better" clone, that's stuck to his body?

Applying that in a more general case, it would mean that materializing creatures in general is the worst idea ever, and nothing of the sort was indicated or hinted at. Either keeping materialized creatures around requires a very weak Emission (doesn't make much sense to me), or it doesn't require Emission at all (this is what I think is the case). Emphasis on creatures. Obviously mantaining materialized objects away from you requires Emission, that was stated multiple times.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I also don't think Gido used any Emission to keep his tops spinning. IMO, that was solely Manipulation. For the same reason I think Kastro's clone didn't require Emission: it wasn't mentioned. Wing mentioned Kastro's attack (forgot the name) was very strong, proving he was an Enhancer. If he used Emission to keep the clone, Wing could have said "That's further reinforced by the fact that Kastro was also quite skilled at Emission to keep his clone existing, and, since it's next to Enhancement, it's clear he is an Enhancer."

Same thing for Gido: "The same is the case for Gido: His Emission was quite good to be able to keep his aura at the range of so many tops, even if they were small. That also serves to prove he's definitely an Enhancer." After all, Gido could not even have been an Enhancer: for all we know, he could have been manipulating his body's muscles/bones to make it easier to spin or something, like the guy from the mafia who manipulates hair. It would also serve well for the reader and Gon/Killua, who were noobs: the more examples of various types there was, the better it would be to help them (and us) understanding. Incidentally, Emission (alongside Transformation and Specialization) was one of the few types not mentioned, so it would have helped Gon and Killua to understand Hatsu better to say when it was used if it really was the case.

Hunter2323
May 09, 2012, 09:28 AM
For Feitan,we saw he got really pissed off when he decided to use his pain cracker, afterwords he said "if you had damaged me more you would have died a less painful death", this could be interpreted as:

1. The more pain he takes the more powerful his ability is.
2. the more pissed off he is the stronger aura he uses thus the more powerful the ability becomes.

Any of the 2 can be right based on what we've seen.

As for Bomber, if Sabu and Bara are needed for every ascpect of "Count Down" how come Gensuru can place it on a target while the other 2 aren't around and they don't even know he's using it? nope we haven't seen anything in the manga indicating someone can lend his aura to another to use it as he wants, so i'm still with my original opinion that Sabu and Bara's use is only for "Release".

For Feitang, after saying that the heat this time was weak, he said, "You get what you give." Therefore the first conclusion of his ability is the only one that makes sense. It also fits in with his personality, being a torture addict and sadist (torturing the auction director, torturing Owl, reading a Trevor Brown book).

There isn't much point in discussing Gensuru as it seems no one is willing to change their mind, but this point needs to be addressed. Combining aura is absolutely 100% possible. Greed Island is all about people putting their aura together to work towards one common goal. Razor stated he handles the majority of Emission tasks, so he is obviously working in conjunction with the others to keep Greed Island functioning. We don't need anyone to directly state they are lending aura because if you can't put aura together, Greed Island is not possible. Knuckles is another example. His entire ability is based on lending aura to someone else.
So, if you believe that Bomber isn't a 3 man team, that's your choice. However, the claim it can't be a 3 man team because nen can't be combined is not true.


Yeah, agreed.

Most importantly, though, Abengane didn't say "It's impossible to be that damn good at Emission, Manipulation and Materialization! He must be a God or something!" he said "That guy has a level of Nen that allows him to use in a sophisticated way Emission, Manipulation and Materialization. That added to his physical agility... even if we all were to go after him, we would be taken down by that "Little Flower" of his." That was all to show the reader how good, skilled and outright dangerous Genthru was. In hindsight, anyone would have simply thought "...wait. He was not that good! Those 2 companions of his helped too! Haha!"

Also, they had deduced he had companions. If it was so easy to have a "shared ability" like that, Abengane (or someone) surely would have mentioned something along the lines of "It's probably it's, on the very least, a 3 man group. An Emission user, a Manipulation user, and Genthru himself being the Materialization user, proved by the fact that he was the one who clearly materialized the bombs." , but nothing of the sort was even hinted at. Actually, never was someone, somehow, capable of somehow influencing someone else's ability simply by "existing". Does it mean that if Sabu or Bara had been killed the ability simply "wouldn't work", because Sabu or Bara's Nen was adding to Genthru's ability because they "exist"? What if Sabu or Bara were sleeping, or KO'ed, or out of aura? It just... doesn't add up.

And on the Emission/Materialization issue, let's take a different approach. What if a Materialization user tried to materialize a clone? The clone would HAVE to be better in some way. Wing didn't mention that "materializing creatures is stupid." or anything like that, so it's supposedly a valid idea. Would the Materialiation user be able to create a "better" clone, that's stuck to his body?

Applying that in a more general case, it would mean that materializing creatures in general is the worst idea ever, and nothing of the sort was indicated or hinted at. Either keeping materialized creatures around requires a very weak Emission (doesn't make much sense to me), or it doesn't require Emission at all (this is what I think is the case). Emphasis on creatures. Obviously mantaining materialized objects away from you requires Emission, that was stated multiple times.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I also don't think Gido used any Emission to keep his tops spinning. IMO, that was solely Manipulation. For the same reason I think Kastro's clone didn't require Emission: it wasn't mentioned. Wing mentioned Kastro's attack (forgot the name) was very strong, proving he was an Enhancer. If he used Emission to keep the clone, Wing could have said "That's further reinforced by the fact that Kastro was also quite skilled at Emission to keep his clone existing, and, since it's next to Enhancement, it's clear he is an Enhancer."

Same thing for Gido: "The same is the case for Gido: His Emission was quite good to be able to keep his aura at the range of so many tops, even if they were small. That also serves to prove he's definitely an Enhancer." After all, Gido could not even have been an Enhancer: for all we know, he could have been manipulating his body's muscles/bones to make it easier to spin or something, like the guy from the mafia who manipulates hair. It would also serve well for the reader and Gon/Killua, who were noobs: the more examples of various types there was, the better it would be to help them (and us) understanding. Incidentally, Emission (and Specialization) was the only one not mentioned, so it would have helped Gon and Killua to understand it better to say when it was used if it really was the case.

You say materializing a beast is the worst idea. From everything shown about nen, it is a terrible idea. It requires contradictory nen types.

If a Materialization user chooses to materialize a clone, why must it be better than what Kastro had? Just because an object is materialized, does not mean it is not still made of nen. Kurapika's statements prove this (as he said Emission is required for Judgment Chain). What does it matter if the thing materialized is a beast or object? It is still nen and to be separated from the body requires Emission. Why would there be a difference in not needing nen to materialize a beast or an object? If materializing a beast requires no Emission, all Materialization users should do this as it bypasses their biggest weakness.

We don't know what Guido's type is, but it can be deduced. We can conclude that he had to use Enhancement, Emission, and Manipulation for his hatsu. He enhanced his own spinning, his tops' spinning, and the tops' durability. He used Emission when the tops separated from his body and circled around the fighting ring on their own. He used Manipulation by giving them the command push back whatever is in their way. Obviously his Manipulation was not very strong as the tops lost their commands after leaving the ring. Therefore, because he had weak Manipulation, but strong (relatively speaking) Enhancement, and decent Emission, it is pretty safe to conclude he was Enhancement. Guido was weak, he himself admitted this (and we also know he was nen-baptized).

Wing (someone we know was a poor student - from Biske and forgetful - from Zushi) not saying Kastro's cloned required Emission is not proof that Emission was not used. It was never stated Razor used Manipulation, but for his devils to function at all, it would be required. Emission shouldn't need to be explained. It is 100% self explanatory. When aura is not connected to the body, emission is necessary. Hisoka versus Kastro is a good example.

Hisoka's bungee gum aura detaches from his body (connected to Kastro and his arm, connected to Kastro and his cards). Hisoka uses some Manipulation to make the gum contract; he uses some Emission keep the aura active while detached from his body; he uses Enhancement to make the cards stronger/more durable. Finally, he uses Transformation to make the aura have the properties of elasticity and stickiness. It is a great example of multiple schools being used for a single technique and how you can reverse engineer what a character's aura category is.

NoFreakingWay
May 13, 2012, 12:08 AM
I don't know what you guys are currently talking about, but let me post some pretty late replies.

Why is Novu's Hide and Seek an Emission ability and not a Materialization one?

Let's compare the technique with one that I consider a vastly weaker, more basic version of Hide and Seek.

Please turn to Ch157 pp5-7. The ability shown there is the Emission Boxer guy's ability.

Now let's compare it to Novu's: Ch246 pp5-8.

What are the elements that are similar in both?

1. Both are concerned with instantaneous transportation. The Devil's ability instantly transfers a part of his body in the area marked by Nen-writings. Novu's transfer all of him through a very wide area, marked by waypoints.

2. Both abilities are supported by Nen-writings. Devil's Nen-writings enhanced his Nen, basically enabling him to transfer a body part instantaneously (Ch160 p11). Novu's waypoints were kept open by the same procedure (Ch251 pp2-3).

3. Both abilities play around with a space that is differentiated from "reality". Devil's arm seemingly travels through nothingness, only to pop out somewhere in the area with Nen-writings. Novu's entire mansion exists somewhere that is just not inside the real world.

Using this comparison, we can see something that we could would be how Hide-and-Seek was developed:

1. In the beginning, Novu probably had a similar ability to the Devil Emission Boxer. It was probably enough to teleport a part of the body. At this stage, there is little interaction between Novu and the space outside the real world.

2. Novu obviously didn't focus on instantaneous teleportation, and instead focused on travel between vast tracts of land. He achieved this using waypoints. Interaction with the space outside the real world increased to the point where he could probably make bigger objects - like his own body - pass through waypoint A to B.

3. Novu has enough Nen to maintain Emitted objects within the space outside the real world - thus he has come up with the mansion. Around the same time he had come up with the Key. Later on, he could just add some mechanics with the portals.

Now, if Hide-And-Seek was Materialization, some problems would arise:

1. The waypoints are maintained using Nen-writings. Though Nen-writings enhance Nen, how much time would you have to spend on Nen-writing to make the waypoint stand for an indefinite period of time? Novu clearly did not invest a lot of time on the waypoint he created.

2. Interaction with 'the space beyond the real world'. See, if Hide-and-Seek was Materialized, it should have just appeared somewhere in the real world. Materialization is about bringing things from a personal mental space - the user's imagination - to the real world. Now we know Hide-and-Seek doesn't do that. Hide-and-Seek exists in a space that is not the real world, and it's very likely not the user's mental space we're looking at. This space is a public space, it's just outside the real world - most likely this is the space where Devil Boxer's arm goes to before resurfacing to reality. It's not about "creating a black hole" and then creating a mansion. The space is already there - Novu just has to have some access to it, and then create his mansion in it. And the access to that space: how do you Materialize something in a space you don't have physical access to? If somehow you get to Materialize your mansion in that public-beyond-reality-space, how do you maintain it? We see no Nen-writing on the walls of the mansion to enhance nen that would help maintain it. Nor are we treated to a some strong restriction that makes it stay there. It would certainly need Emission to be maintained - and lots of it; there's a lot of distance between it and Novu, and the mansion isn't tied to Novu like how the chains are tied to Kurapika.

With Emission, things are easier to explain. Emitters meddle with that public-beyond-reality-space more often than people from other Hatsu types. Emitters are all about travel, transport, and it's not a big deal for them to maintain something from afar, as far as their Aura and mastery allows it. Just notice how easy it is for an Emission user to tap into that space. The Devil Boxer, by replacing active training with just scribbling Nen-writings on the canvas, tapped into it. In Ch251 p8-9, Novu accessed the mansion with simple clap, wave and closing gestures producing a lace of Nen linking both hands - nothing remotely Materialized there, but it certainly is reminiscent to how the Boxer teleported his fist.

Now, to compare the ability with actual Materialization abilities that involve a "space", we'll compare Hide-and-Seek with Fun Fun Cloth and Deme-chan.

1. FFC and Deme-chan are actual items that get Materialized to the real world. We see that the "point of the ability" or the "intent of the user" was the creation of an "item" rather than the "effect of the item" which is "a space other than the real world". The items came before the space, and this is important, since it allows us to understand how the ability was developed.

2. FFC and Deme-Chan had the "space" inside them, while for Hide-and-Seek it was obvious that you had to go to the "space beyond the real world" first to get that mansion in there.

3. FFC and Deme-Chan doesn't have anything to do with distance. Both are almost always very near the user (gripped in the hands). Deme-chan, though it may possible suck an unlimited number of items in it, doesn't care where these items end up, except for the latest one.

So it's not impossible for a Materialization user to dabble with "the space beyond the real world", as long as the "point" of the ability doesn't lean towards the domain of Emission-based nen-space abilities. In fact the next ability I'm going to compare Hide-and-Seek to is a Materialization ability that dabble with a space the user himself can get into: Zitoh's Savannah.

Savannah doesn't involve itself with distance as much as Hide-and-Seek does. The ability forces the user to be inside it, and thus, also forcing the user to be near it. Though the interior of Savannah is huge, the Materialized things inside it are so basic (what, some grass and a couple of trees?), they're conceivably pretty easy to Materialize by themselves in the basic image training method. The only thing that looks out of place in there is the giant hourglass, but it's still no biggie.

---

Goreinu

If Goreinu's Gorillas were Materialization, it would have turned into a bloody mess when Reiza hit here (Ch162 p8). The Ryodan clones were still a bloody mess anyways when they were found out, and no one objects that they're Materialized. But as seen in the picture the White Gorilla just shattered into energy.

Therefore, when Goreinu got hit by Reiza (Ch164 p3-5) and when it was mentioned that he won't be able to create the Gorillas again, it just meant that it affected his will (Ch148 p2) enough that he can't maintain the gorillas' shape anytime soon.

Reiza hit Goreinu so hard Goreinu's balls shrank.

---

Netero

Doesn't really matter if Netero was a Reinforcer, Kannon is mostly likely Emitted, and Zero surely was Emitted. You don't create a statue by Reinforcing your aura. You either Emit one, or Materialize one. If he was a Reinforcer, it just shows how headstrong he is - trying to master something he can't take to the max. So he just makes up for it by building on his Aura amount.

---

Bonorenolf

For Bonorenolf: Ch225 5-9, Ch227 1-4

For Emission let's compare the ability to two abilities: Kannon and Double Machinegun.

1. Kannon was just there to deal blunt force damage. It wasn't doing anything really special. Same with the masked spearman Bono called forth (hell maybe it was doing stabbing damage, it had a spear, duh). And Jupiter.

2. Double Machinegun was forever strengthened by self-mutilation, which, in turn, was driven by some motivation. In Bono's case however it just allowed him to give varying power-ups to the things he makes. The better he plays and dances the stronger damage he deals. Unless Franklin, chops up, say, both of his arms or does something more special I think that's the best Franklin could get as far as Mystery Points are concerned.

3. Jupiter was basically nothing but a big ball of Nen. If Franklin was able to fire one huge nen-bullet the same would happen to his target: it'd get crushed like an insect.

Problems against Emission: He should have no problem emitting the things he emits even without the melody.

-

For Transformation let's compare it to Pain Packer and Rising Sun.

1. Both abilities had to have 'something other than Nen' to strengthen their attack. Bono had to create a melody; Fei had to receive pain. When those things had better quality (epic melody, pain from mortal wounds), better Nen-things resulted.

2. The two aforementioned things also functioned as requirements to make the abilities go off: Without a melody Bono probably wouldn't create the things he created (Bono pointed out to his Chimera opponent that "you can at least prevent my performance in Ch227 p1" meaning if you stop the dance he can't pull stuff off); without pain Fei probably couldn't use Pain Packer.

3. Ch225 p8 clearly says in my copy "Transform the Melody into Battle Power". Same happened with Pain Packer - my copy says "Change into Scorching Heat" in Ch229 p5. Both mention the two aforementioned things - things that are not Nen - transform or change into Nen.

4. The spearman, Jupiter, and Rising Sun were thrown some feet away from their respective users; not far enough to be a problem for Transformation users (Zeno didn't have trouble with his Dragons, and I think of him as a Transformation user).

5. Bottomline: Both abilities (Le Batte Cantabile, Pain Packer) were basically just 'Primary' abilities that transformed 'Requirements' into Nen-based 'Secondary' abilities:

Requirement Primary Secondary

Bono Melody Le Batte Cantabile Spearman, Jupiter

Fei Pain Pain Packer Rising Sun

Problems against Transformation: Nothing much really. Well, the problem is with appearance. Transformation users don't have issues tapping into Materialization for some of their stuff. We have Hisoka's Deceitful Texture, and Biscuit's Masseuse. So while Bono's stuff may have been produced with Materialization, they won't even be there if it weren't for the Transformation ability Le Batte Cantabile, and it just kind of strengthens the thinking that Bono is a Transformation user.

-

For Materialization: Kastro's Doppelganger

1. Both looks Materialized.

2. Both did nothing much but deal damage, except Doppelganger can copy Kastro's moves and Bono's things just did their own (blunt force damage) thing.

Problems against Materialization: Bono had to create a melody first before Materializing the things (if they were Materialized). It basically goes against the natural trait for Materialized things: they can be put away and summoned anytime the user wants. The restriction normally shouldn't get in the way of Bono Materializing things. Bono should be easily able to Materialize anything he has had the image training to Materialize, and then power them up with the melody as they exist. In short - his 'restriction' is pretty much contradictory to the nature of Materialized things. However, Hisoka's Deceitful Texture, which I considered a Materialization ability, has one restriction: it only works on thin surfaces like paper and cloth. It basically renders the abiity unusable unless you meet this damned restriction. So there is one other thing that is going on for Materialization.

I was going to say something about how the things looked like. Originally I thought Materialized things looked best (had the sharpest details, like Doppelganger or the Ryodan corpses), next is Emission (Knuckle clones, Kannon, Razor's Devils), and last would be Transformation (Zeno's Dragon, Rising Sun lol), but it turns out to be pretty nebulous.

I originally leaned towards Emission but now it seems I have talked myself into thinking this is really from Transformation. It didn't have much trouble aligning with Rising Sun, now that I've analyzed it much deeper.

So yeah, take your time reading all of that guys. I'll read all of the earlier posts too.

Fox666
May 13, 2012, 01:42 AM
If Goreinu's Gorillas were Materialization, it would have turned into a bloody mess when Reiza hit here (Ch162 p8). The Ryodan clones were still a bloody mess anyways when they were found out, and no one objects that they're Materialized. But as seen in the picture the White Gorilla just shattered into energy.
I hardly believe on that. I don't remember it being mentioned that entities materialized by Nem are supposed to be identical to living beings, and that may be something special about Kortopi ability.

I think you are making some confusion about Materialization and Emission, dealing as if they are mostly the same thing. I am not completely sure, but I think Materialization means "construction" while emission is closer to "movement".

Either way, I think it's obvious that Netero's ability is materialization.

NoFreakingWay
May 13, 2012, 05:03 AM
I hardly believe on that. I don't remember it being mentioned that entities materialized by Nem are supposed to be identical to living beings, and that may be something special about Kortopi ability.

I think you are making some confusion about Materialization and Emission, dealing as if they are mostly the same thing. I am not completely sure, but I think Materialization means "construction" while emission is closer to "movement".

Either way, I think it's obvious that Netero's ability is materialization.

Then look at the pic. Why would any Materialized item act different? They're just real items with added features. If you Materialized a Kuroro clone you can chop the clone into pieces and it'll look bloody.

How can I be confused with Materialization and Emission when I took a long time trying to sort them out? Emitted creatures, when chopped up, doesn't have organs, but you'll see them dissipating into shards of energy just like the White Gorilla did. Materialized creatures like the Ryodan clones on the other hand, will look like chopped up pieces of meat.

So please, read the post again. I know it's a fricking wall, but I took some time creating it to be told I confuse stuff. Thanks.

MegamanX195
May 13, 2012, 11:19 AM
I don't remember if it was Biske or Razor that said this, but it was stated that Goreinu's gorilla damage reflected what would have happened if Goreinu himself got hit. Razor's emitted clones certainly are vastly weaker than Razor himself, and Goreinu's gorillas are apparently on the very least comparable to himself. Kastro's clone certainly is as strong as himself, much like Goreinu's gorillas. This is somewhat a substantial argument, just wanted to point out the similarity.

Koltopi's ability is a very special one, being capable of even cloning Nen-created objects, I don't think that really is a good argument. As far as we know, Kastro's clone would "vanish in energy" if destroyed too. It certainly seemed so with the way it vanished and materialized.

Also, something still hasn't been adressed. "When" can a Nen-creature exist even if its summoner has been KO'ed? Razor certainly implied it wasn't "obvious" that Nen-creatures vanish when their "owner" is KO'ed, meaning it's possible or not, nor did he comment that "it's just like his". If anything, that implies both are different. Does the Nen-user simply decide "OK, this one is going to be a independent creature" when creating the ability? I think that Razor (and other Emission users) use Manipulation to give their creatures an order upon summoning, meaning that even if they get KO'ed they continue existing. Materialized creatures must be directly controlled all the time, which means, directly Manipulated all the time.

Fox666
May 13, 2012, 11:49 AM
Then look at the pic. Why would any Materialized item act different? They're just real items with added features. If you Materialized a Kuroro clone you can chop the clone into pieces and it'll look bloody.

How can I be confused with Materialization and Emission when I took a long time trying to sort them out? Emitted creatures, when chopped up, doesn't have organs, but you'll see them dissipating into shards of energy just like the White Gorilla did. Materialized creatures like the Ryodan clones on the other hand, will look like chopped up pieces of meat.

So please, read the post again. I know it's a fricking wall, but I took some time creating it to be told I confuse stuff. Thanks.
Like I said, I am not sure of anything. But my point is that Kortopi ability is the only instance we have seen, and it is not at his will, but rather a result of his ability to mimic things. So I don't really expect that all materializations of a creature that is similar to a living thing to have internal organs.


Also, something still hasn't been adressed. "When" can a Nen-creature exist even if its summoner has been KO'ed? Razor certainly implied it wasn't "obvious" that Nen-creatures vanish when their "owner" is KO'ed, meaning it's possible or not, nor did he comment that "it's just like his". If anything, that implies both are different. Does the Nen-user simply decide "OK, this one is going to be a independent creature" when creating the ability? I think that Razor (and other Emission users) use Manipulation to give their creatures an order upon summoning, meaning that even if they get KO'ed they continue existing. Materialized creatures must be directly controlled all the time, which means, directly Manipulated all the time.
You probably are getting somewhere. Nem users are not supposed to use strictly only one style, but to focus on what he is better at. So we should expect styles to be used in conjuction with others.

Hunter2323
May 13, 2012, 12:20 PM
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/76725-Evolution-of-power-hexagram

For help: 强化=enhancement, 变化=transformation, 放出=emission, 操作=manipulation, 具現=materialization, 特(?)=specialization

NFW, nice points, and good arguments. However, Togashi gave Netero's and Novu's nen types. Check the above link for them. The second spoiler tag's second picture has Novu listed as Materialization. The second spoiler tag's first picture has Gensuru's type listed as Materialization as well. Novu uses the nen writing to maintain the portal as opposed to the ones he instantly uses which disappear immediately after someone enters through one. The portal that used nen writing also disappeared as soon as people came through them. He had to use the nen writing to sustain the portals he didn't immediately use.

I originally thought Novu was Emission as well; many people did. However, the author said otherwise. This really just opens up the possibilities for Materialization. We know his mansion exists in some unknown nen space, but the mansion is a real, materialized house.

For Netero, check the link's second spoiler tag, fourth picture. Netero is listed as Enhancement, which makes sense as his ability uses so many different types, so if he didn't have the balance of Enhancement, who knows if he could have created this ability. I agree with you that his "Zero" was definitely an Emission ability. His statue was also most likely Materialized as well. This just shows that Enhancement gives you the most balance and flexibility (which is why I think Kastro's double would only really be possible coming from an Enhancement user).

For Goreinu, I agree 100%. The gorillas are definitely emitted. You bring up a good point in how the White Gorilla was destroyed is very similar to how Tochino's (Nostrade body guard) "Black Balloon Children" were destroyed by Franklin's machine gun. The nen creatures just dispersed.

For Bono, I agree that needing to play a song goes against Materialization's nature. But this restriction is also what makes it so strong. He can't materialize anything before playing a song which would definitely increase his ability. He materialized the armor (actual armor), so he has to have strong Materialization (puts him as either Mat or Trans). For Jupiter, it seems to be a bit unclear. You believe it was a giant nen ball. I believe it was just a giant rock/miniature moon. If it's a nen ball, he is definitely Transformation. If it is real, he is Materialization. We'll just have to wait for him to fight again.

For Feitang, he materialized clothes. This most likely guarantees him to be either Mat, Trans, or Enh. Next, he transformed his aura into intense heat. Afterwards he stated the heat was weak and didn't last long. He then goes on to say it would have lasted longer if Zazan had damaged him more. Tsezugera was shocked by Killua giving his aura electricity, stating he would need years of electric torture. From what little we know of Feitang's ability, he has multiple types. So, did he also go through numerous years of different torture? Maybe. However, I think it is more logical to believe that he uses a fairly strong restriction, taking damage/pain (which also ties in with his sadist personality - Trevor Brown, Spider's Interrogator, threatening to take Gon's fingernails off, Nobunaga immediately thinking he was going to torture Gon).

So, he is definitely Transformation. However, he is not so much transforming pain as using how much pain he has received to power up his ability.

NoFreakingWay
May 20, 2012, 03:41 AM
Kannon is not Materialized. It's simply Emitted.

What are the problems that goes against Kannon being Materialized?

1. Materialized items almost always need to be image-trained. I put this one early because it's kind of a minor issue. Kannon doesn't seem to have went through any kind of image-training. Netero's alone in that mountain for around a decade, right? We already used Gallery Fake as an example of a Hatsu producing Materialized items that do not need to be image-trained. We can also say Zitoh's lame crossbow-claw (Ch248 p1) is Materialized, but I could also say this is just Emitted, since the main point of the crossbow is to launch projectiles. Anyway, if the crossbow is Materialized it does lend itself to the exceptions of how Materialized items can skip the image-training phase.

2. Materialized items have a problem of being "near-invulnerable". If Kannon is just a Materialized statue, what do you think would happen if it hit a severely durable object (Meryem) at a speed faster than that of sound? It would miserably break like a statue. It takes a lot for a Materialized objects to be near-invulnerable, as we have often mentioned Kurapika's master say, and it often involves rigid restrictions. Kannon, in its normal attacking mode, doesn't involve any kind of restriction to make it near-invulnerable. If there is, I surely haven't heard the manga mention any. Additionally, virtually-indestructible objects in the manga are things that do not hurt the opponent. Here are some examples:

Potclean (Ch276 pp2-3, Ch302 pp4-7)
Morau's Smoke Cage (Ch277 p14)
Morau's Smoke Leash (Ch247 p13)
Zitoh's Savannah Hourglass (Ch245 p9-10)

The first three examples are very likely Emitted objects. All of them do not hurt the opponent, or at least, do not directly hurt the opponent. The last example, the Hourglass, is most likely a Materialized item. But it shares the same quality the first three objects have - which is, they all don't directly hurt the opponent. Kannon directly hurts the opponent.

3. This is kind of forced, but Kannon dissipated in a way similar way to how Goreinu's White Gorilla and Potclean (Ch289 p12-13) did. Look at (Ch290 p14). It shows Meryem crushing Kannon, or at least, Kannon's hand. If Kannon was a statue, it would break like a statue. But it didn't. It dissipated into slivers of energy. It's kind of forced because it's not that obvious. They look like some sort of effect. But for Meryem to crush Kannon is quite easy for someone of his power.

---

When Reinforcement was mentioned to have the best balance of offense and defense, it didn't mean Reinforcement could have a balanced growth on all Hatsu types. Hisoka's explanation of Kastro's weakness makes that pretty clear. If that wasn't clear, it just meant those who choose to focus on an ability that is far from your innate Hatsu type on the Hatsu hexagon will result in a sucky Hatsu that is very unreliable when developed through pure training and not aided by restrictions. What that meant is Reinforcement has the best growth on the basic offensive and defensive Nen-apps. This means Reinforcement has the best Kou, Gyo, Shu, Ken, Ren, etc. because Reinforcement directly affects the offensive and defensive effectiveness of those apps. Reinforcement will definitely suck at Specialization, and will be definitely be weak at Materializing and Manipulating things, since they are too from it on the Hatsu hexagon. Kurapika's explanation about Emperor Time and his chains pretty much nails that. Biscuit's training program in GI also made sure Hatsu training focused on the innate Hatsu type and the two adjacent Hatsu types since those three Hatsu types are the ones the user will be able to maximize the most in a small amount of time. There isn't much focus on the distant Hatsu types and obviously none for the opposite Hatsu type.

---

@Megaman

Abengane was probably thinking Gensuru put a bunch of strong conditions on COuntdown that makes it possible for him to stick the bombs on a lot of people all by himself. That's the only way we could explain his line of thinking, because nothing will stop someone with enough willpower to stick enough dangerous conditions on one's Hatsu to make it as powerful as Countdown. But it was apparent Abengane didn't even consider he had allies, since no one showed up by the time Gensuru was explaining the details of his ability that would explain that Countdown realy involved 3 guys. What that meant for Abengane is that he had a good idea about the importance of restrictions for Hatsus. His own Nen-erasing ability has him seek the aid of the forest, or rather, forest spirits, before he can go on with the ritual (he had to go to a wooded area first and the fact is made quite obvious in Ch147 p7). If he put in additional restrictions, it he wouldn't have needed the forest spirits at all, but it would most likely be dangerous for him. The same for Kurapika. Why isn't Emperor Time and the whole chain thing a Team Hatsu? Because Kurapika put enough restrictions on the ability so that he himself would suffice. That is why Ubo was extremely confused as to how Kurapika was able to have a seemingly high Reinforcement score while he was definitely either a Manipulation or a Materialization user: because he was never used to placing restrictions on his abilities and relied on pure training. None of Gensuru's conditions were as harsh as Kurapika's. Why didn't Gon's Uber mode turn into some sort of Genki Dama that needed other peoples' strength? Because his oath was harsh enough for the deed he wants done.

It's entirely possible for Team Hatsus (ex. Countdown, Greed Island cards) to get activated without the members being physically present at the time the Hatsu needs to be activated. Otherwise the Greed Island cards would not work at all. It would be downright stupid for each GM to be present at every instance of card activation in the island. This is where Emission comes in. You need to maintain a link to the people that makes the things run. Emission does that for you. You don't need a nen-cable running all the way from the GI Gamemaster to the cards. You just have to have strong enough Emission laced with each and every card. For Countdown, the only guy that needs to be physically present is the guy who enables or triggers the bombs on, which is Gensuru. The bombs are his problem. The "maintenance-of-the-bombs-from-far-away" part is the problem of the Emission user. He's an Emission user, he does things from a distance, why does he have to be near the event? A solo Materialization Hatsu that needs Emission to keep tabs on the activation of the ability from far away works on a similar principle. The example would be Kurapika's chains. The chains stayed in Pakunoda's heart even when Kurapika was kilometers away from her already. But did the chains visibly stick out of her chest leading to Kurapika? No. It just waited for Pakunoda to break the rule and when she did, the chain killed her. In the 1999 anime, the chains were shown to materialize while rising from the ground, somehow visibly connecting Pakunoda to Kurapika. This tells us that once the rule was broken, the chain materialized to link itself to the source so that the full power of the punishment would be imposed.

Say Reiza got killed. What do you think would happen to GI? Greed Island would fall apart. Intruders and gamers alike will freely put the game out of balance. Spells like Leap or Accompany would stop working. That is why Greed Island needed to be more thought-out than Countdown. There is a system of GM-only cards handling potential troublemakers. Greed Island cards doesn't have any ability to kill people. Greed Island quests are not lethal. Greed Island GMs, like Reiza, are particularly powerful people that are hard to kill. The GMs are almost always inaccessible. How long did it take for players to find Reiza since the birth of GI? There are probably a lot more things to say when it comes to making sure that the men and women working behind GI don't get killed - or at least, don't get killed very easily, because the whole thing would fall apart.

But say one of the Bomber Devils get killed. Particularly the Emission user who maintains the bombs for a short span of time. What would happen? Here are things that I think would happen:

1. If the bombs are already set when the guy died, the bombs could get stronger since Nen might get stronger when the user dies.
2. If the bombs aren't one of those things that gets stronger when the user dies, the bombs would then just lose a lot of their power and would most likely not work (not explode) when the victims are out of the coverage area. This is why Potclean doesn't even add interest when the victim it's attached to is far enough from Knuckle.
3. The bombs would most likely have a time limit of existing as bombs. If the victims get out of range long enough then they'll just disappear. Kurotopi might have a thing or two to say about this.

So everything fits in the Emission model. Without Emission you cannot explain why Abengane and Kurapika mentions Emission in Materialization Hatsus. And it is exactly what you have done so far. You can't address this issue because you are just ignoring what Materialization user in the manga have always explained to us.

About what Wing could have said about Kastro's ability, it's pretty absurd to have one guy tell everything that has to work. Wing's focus in his explanation was the core Hatsus involved for each of Kastro's abilities. Tiger Fang's core Hatsu was Reinforcement, and the Doppelganger's core Hatsu was Materialization. Besides, Kurapika neatly covered what Wing didn't say about Materialized items maintained from afar. You're basically telling us that abilities won't work in a particular manner unless the manga explicitly tells us it works that way. That's problematic, because the way the manga explains how Nen works is through periodic installments. It doesn't explain everything neatly in one go. There is a big gap in terms of chapters when Wing explained Kastro's Hatsus and Kurapika's Emperor Time explanation (in York Shin). There is a big gap in the latter and the chapter where Biscuit explained how Hatsu training should go (in GI). There is also ridiculously huge gap when Kurapika's master revealed the Damage Reduction formula where he assumed both Kurapika and his opponent are at 100% of their physical abilities (Ch83 p6) and Biscuit's Condition Theory (Ch210 pp3-5). Without Biscuit's Condition Theory, what Kurapika's master said about physical condition would've just been something moot and academic. The latter information drives home the point that a person's physical condition is indeed integral to how Nen-users fight. We should be able to piece together information that seems disparate upon shallow investigation but turns out to be well-meshed after bothering to do some research. You don't expect the manga to spoon-feed you with complete tracts of info and be totalitarian about partial info. How many manga do that anyways? If we act like this, why are we even bothering with "Create you own Hatsu" and "HxH RPG" threads when most of what we are saying in those threads aren't given a green light by the manga anyways? Instead of being totalitarian just because we should instead try and be ready to present facts and name chapter numbers and pages to buttress our point. It sadly isn't happening too much; I mean, what kind of no-life sicko would bother doing that?

I realize I blabbed a lot but didn't respond to other things. I might in a later post or edit. Thanks.

TheAmericandream
June 01, 2012, 03:01 AM
Now I'm sure Morel uses multiple nen types for his smoke abilities, but isn't he confirmed Manipulation type? So does this mean the smoke is real smoke he manipulates, or no its just emitted aura? We even see him create the smoke dolls (which I thought were real smoke) and added a ball of his aura in the center to give it more complex controls. Just something I wasn't sure about.

Demonspeed
June 01, 2012, 07:46 AM
I think Morel conjures a pipe and manipulates the smoke at will.

kkck
June 01, 2012, 08:29 AM
To be honest I think kannon is an example of acquired specialization. Given that netero is an enhancer it would not make sense that kannon is actually conjured. its too far from his own nen type, I can't imagine it being that way with such a limitation. Wasn't it said in the databook that kannon came about during netero's retreat? People can become specialization and while we haven't been given the details of how such a thing would work I think a 4 year retreat of solely praying and training sounds like the sort of thing which could trigger such enlightenment so to speak.

A lot of people seem confused about emission and conjuration though. Emission implies making things out of pure nen and having them maintain their shape and power at a range. They are also invisible to the naked eye of normal nenless people. Conjuration implies making an actual physical object out of actual nen. They are very material things which can be seen even by nenless people. The issue at hand is that we can't always tell what is invisible to normal people as we can always see stuff.

Demonspeed
June 01, 2012, 01:17 PM
Netero is an enhancer so he is good at emission. For me Kannon is an emitted statue and he uses enhancement to increase the power of Kannon's punches and Zero is a pure emission technique.

TheAmericandream
June 01, 2012, 02:17 PM
About Morel, I don't think the pipe is conjured, is it? I had always thought it was just an actual really big pipe (used as a weapon like Nobunaga's sword), it doesn't seem to have any special qualities, and he never gets rid of it.

As far as Netero is concerned, I think Emission explains the Kannon ability, Enhancer (leaning towards Emission) or vice versa as Netero's Nen type also would make sense to me. Is he confirmed as an Enhancer? Also I know they say Conjurer and Manipulation has better aptitude for becoming Specialists later in life, but does anyone think its possible for other categories like Enhancers to become Specialists (under specific circumstances)? I'd like to think so anyway.

Out of all the Nen things I want to see in HxH, more then anything I want to see Emission based Nen training, how cool would that be if we got a Leorio training scene (present or past)?

Demonspeed
June 01, 2012, 03:44 PM
You are right about Morel. It's surely a condition like"i can only manipulate smoke which comes from this pipe".

TheAmericandream
June 01, 2012, 04:05 PM
Yea, that explains when Pufu steals his pipe and Morel has to chase after him to get it back.

Tombadgerlock
June 06, 2012, 03:44 AM
Morel is definitely either manipulation or Emission- he is confirmed as using both extensively.

However, given his lack of HtH ability, i would gamble on him being manipulation more than emission.

As for Netero, his statue is definitely materialized. I think most of you are simply forgetting that a materialized object is an object- and as such, Netero can use reinforcement on it to make it stronger.

He basically use a Reinforcement/Manipulation/Emission/Materialization combo. The only style i haven't seen him use is Transformation.

Goreinu and Raizor both use materialization, manipulation and emission. I would hazard that Goreinu is Manipulation and Raizor Emission though, given that Raizor seems better tat Reinforcement/Emission while Goreinu specializes more in Manipulation/emission. (otoh, it could be just a result of Raizor being that good).

fanatik
June 06, 2012, 04:08 AM
Morau is confirmed sousa (manipulation) & Raizor is confirmed houshutsu (emission). I'd like to see more of Goreinu someday and maybe know for sure then.

Demonspeed
June 07, 2012, 06:27 AM
Morel is definitely either manipulation or Emission- he is confirmed as using both extensively.



As for Netero, his statue is definitely materialized. I think most of you are simply forgetting that a materialized object is an object- and as such, Netero can use reinforcement on it to make it stronger.

He basically use a Reinforcement/Manipulation/Emission/Materialization combo. The only style i haven't seen him use is Transformation.



I don't think Netero uses Materialization, is it even sure that he is an enhancer? I always thought he was emitter. Emission is near manipulation and enhancement so it would explain all his abilities.I really can't imagine Netero use so many nen types which are not suited to him.

For me his hatsu is similar to Gon:

Jajanken=enhancement 100%, transmutation 80%,emission 80%.

Hyakushiki Kannon=emission 100%,enhancement 80%, manipulation 80%.

Uriel
June 07, 2012, 10:06 AM
Netero is officially Enhancement. In all books, data, etc.
And it's more convenient for his type to enhance the statue that He materialize since He can't enhance the physical damage of an object emitted.

Being one Hatsu doesn't mean "You will use the other wrong" or "You can't do that". It means some things will cost you more. In the case of Netero, He spent 50 years throwing a fist to understand what it means to pray. Enough cost to make his beastly technique.

Techniques doesn't have percentage as well...They use everything they have. What is more important in case of Netero? The statue itself, controlling the 1000 arms it has or deal enough damage to be something to consider?
The Kannon is anyway a special technique since it's "all the life force" in a blast that it's either trow or connected. It's purely Enhancement and Emission.

Demonspeed
June 07, 2012, 01:51 PM
I used the nen diagram to show affinities according to the nen type.OK, Netero is an enhancer but i don't see why it would be impossible for him to enhance physical damages of Kannon(it's even easier with this type according to the diagram),i don't say that it couldn't be materialized but according to his type it's almost sure that Kannon is emitted .The difference between emission and materialization is only that emission is invisible to those who don't use nen.To control Kannon Netero should use manipulation skills too.

Here is my explanation of Hyakushiki Kannon: Netero emits the statue,he can use his enhancement skills to enhance power of the object emitted and finally he uses manipulation skills to control members(like Shoot). The combo enhancement/emission/manipulation is easier for him and more efficient than enhancement/materialization/manipulation(this is the same combo that Kastro used).

Uriel
June 07, 2012, 01:59 PM
Different from Kastro, Netero has sufficient Space Memory :P
And both are plausible, actually. But why Netero would use Emission primary when the object is always near him? Isn't Emission the ability to produce large amount of Aura that are FAR from the user? Aren't Materialization objects always near from the user?

Demonspeed
June 07, 2012, 02:37 PM
Different from Kastro, Netero has sufficient Space Memory :P
And both are plausible, actually. But why Netero would use Emission primary when the object is always near him? Isn't Emission the ability to produce large amount of Aura that are FAR from the user? Aren't Materialization objects always near from the user?

Emitted aura is not necessarily far from the user, it can be near but there is no physical contact. It's why it's often combined with manipulation. All materialized objects that we have seen are on contact with the user's body.

kkck
June 07, 2012, 03:01 PM
I maintain that you can't use nen to enhance emitted stuff. Emitted stuff is at large made out of pure nen. Enhancement works by adding and concentrating nen into stuff to make it stronger. If the statue is emitted then it would be made out of 100% nen. Adding nen to it would make it stronger or bigger or whatever but it would not quite be enhancement, it would just be more emission. You could however use enhancement on a conjured thing since it is a real object though. Still, would this make sense? Conjured things cannot go beyond certain limits. In this regard we have the scenario that netero being an enhancer is conjuring a complex object of a rather huge size which moves just at about his speed and enhances it. Wouldn't this imply an inherent huge waste?

Emission is used to keep aura separated from the user. Even if it is a small distance emission would still be required. A larger distance makes things harder though. With conjured objects distance or even contact is not an issue. As they are actual objects they do not require any actual emission skills.

Demonspeed
June 07, 2012, 03:40 PM
. If the statue is emitted then it would be made out of 100% nen. Adding nen to it would make it stronger or bigger or whatever but it would not quite be enhancement, it would just be more emission.

.

This is exactly the fact to make it stronger which is enhancement.This is the PURE definition of enhancement type:to increase the power of something or an object.


You could however use enhancement on a conjured thing since it is a real object though.

Emitted aura is real too, it's just invisible for normal men.


Emission is used to keep aura separated from the user. Even if it is a small distance emission would still be required. A larger distance makes things harder though

This is not a problem for emitters and it's easier for enhancers than to materialize something because emission is near of their category.

Uriel
June 07, 2012, 07:46 PM
It's easier, but it doesn't mean that Enhancers are unable to materialize something.
Take Kurapika Chains, for example. They need to be enhanced to resist the strength of Uvogin. One could say that you could make that as the special property, but this is difficult without Enhancement.

Forget two seconds about what is near and what's not...When an user has enough experience, every Hatsu is used at some point for a particular purpose inside a well-made and complete technique.

kkck
June 07, 2012, 11:26 PM
This is exactly the fact to make it stronger which is enhancement.This is the PURE definition of enhancement type:to increase the power of something or an object.

.

Emitted aura is real too, it's just invisible for normal men.



This is not a problem for emitters and it's easier for enhancers than to materialize something because emission is near of their category.

Well, under that logic any form of emission would already be enhancement. It plainly does not make sense that merely putting power into an emitted attack is enhancement in the same context as with the enhancement nen type. If you use an emitted attack then the amount of damage it causes is determined by the speed of impact and the amount of nen(in very general terms). Whats the point of merely emitting more nen and calling it enhancement? Saying you can enhance pure energy with pure energy is every bit as dumb as trying to get water wetter with more water.

I am not saying emitted nen is not real. The issue is that emitted nen is just that, nen, pure life energy and whatnot. Nothing more or less. A conjured sword for instance would be actual metal, not nen.

---------- Post added at 11:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 PM ----------

Well, as for netero's nen I don't think it can be conjured either. It is perfectly possible for someone to learn nen types other than his own however there will always be drawbacks to it. We saw the percentages and those pretty much show that learning other nen types is increasingly inefficient and requires more time than your own nen. As we have seen, hatsu's seem to be developed by people at a young age. Even if mastering them would take decades it requires but a few months to actually get it close to what will be its final shape. Do we assume netero for some reason put of developing his hatsu until he was able to use every nen type to the level he would require to use his current hatsu? This not only does not make sense because it is clearly different from what everyone else does when learning and developing nen but also because netero's very school actually teaches that enhancers at large do not need complicated techniques (wing told that to gon).

We don't know whether netero's hatsu can be seen or not by non nen users however this is how it would break down in terms of how it could be made:

The first alternative is that the kannon requires emission, transmutation and manipulation. Emission to maintain the power of his nen at a distance, transmutation to shape it like a Bodhisattva and manipulation to control it. Not only none of this nen types is his own but manipulation is remarkably far away.

The other alternative is that the Bodhisattva is plainly conjured. It avoids netero the need for emission, transmutation and manipulation at large and to boot he could actually use his nen to enhance it (however as netero is not actually in contact with the thing he would require emission to do that). Theoretically it would be simpler than using 3 nen types to create it however to actually be effective in battle having to use emission to enhance the thing with nen would be a pain one way or another.

In my eyes the statue at large does not fit any particular nen type nor combination of them if we consider that netero is an enhancer. At some point in the manga it was said that you could actually become a specialization nen type later in life(although it was more common with manipulators or conjurers). Now, we at some point saw that netero retreated to the mountains for his training. During this time we saw that netero spent every waking hour punching and praying. As we have seen, that is pretty much EXACTLY what netero does to attack with kannon. He makes a prayer and then kannon imitates netero's movements. Its not like netero went to do that training to get stronger, he went there with the idea of showing gratitude for everything he had gotten of martial arts. More so, once he got faster at his routine he simply prayed more. By the manga's words this pretty much enlightened netero or something. What if the sheer insanity of the little training netero put himself through actually developed this nen as a specialization nen? It would make sense as specialization is not even a nen type per say, it is simply the category that techniques which fit in nowhere (cough kannon cough) go to.

Demonspeed
June 08, 2012, 04:00 AM
It's easier, but it doesn't mean that Enhancers are unable to materialize something.
Take Kurapika Chains, for example. They need to be enhanced to resist the strength of Uvogin. One could say that you could make that as the special property, but this is difficult without Enhancement.

.

It's because Kurapika use his specialization nen :Emperor Time which allows him to use all hatsu types at 100%.I haven't said that they can't materialize something but it's more difficult.I don't think he was trying to create a great technique and preferred to use materialization instead of emission but the two are possible.




It's true but not in all case,Biscuit herself said that it's better practice a little other nen types.

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------


Well, under that logic any form of emission would already be enhancement. It plainly does not make sense that merely putting power into an emitted attack is enhancement in the same context as with the enhancement nen type. If you use an emitted attack then the amount of damage it causes is determined by the speed of impact and the amount of nen(in very general terms). Whats the point of merely emitting more nen and calling it enhancement? Saying you can enhance pure energy with pure energy is every bit as dumb as trying to get water wetter with more water.

Exactly.Enhancement is very basic,everyone use it(Ren and Ko are enhancement technique)so just the fact to increase your aura is enhancement.


I am not saying emitted nen is not real. The issue is that emitted nen is just that, nen, pure life energy and whatnot. Nothing more or less. A conjured sword for instance would be actual metal, not nen.
It would be metal, but a it would still be nen.If it was not Kuroro would be able to materialize his book when Kurapika caught him and Zetsu would be inefficient on Materialization users.




Well, as for netero's nen I don't think it can be conjured either. It is perfectly possible for someone to learn nen types other than his own however there will always be drawbacks to it. We saw the percentages and those pretty much show that learning other nen types is increasingly inefficient and requires more time than your own nen. As we have seen, hatsu's seem to be developed by people at a young age. Even if mastering them would take decades it requires but a few months to actually get it close to what will be its final shape. Do we assume netero for some reason put of developing his hatsu until he was able to use every nen type to the level he would require to use his current hatsu? This not only does not make sense because it is clearly different from what everyone else does when learning and developing nen but also because netero's very school actually teaches that enhancers at large do not need complicated techniques (wing told that to gon).

We don't know whether netero's hatsu can be seen or not by non nen users however this is how it would break down in terms of how it could be made:

The first alternative is that the kannon requires emission, transmutation and manipulation. Emission to maintain the power of his nen at a distance, transmutation to shape it like a Bodhisattva and manipulation to control it. Not only none of this nen types is his own but manipulation is remarkably far away.

The other alternative is that the Bodhisattva is plainly conjured. It avoids netero the need for emission, transmutation and manipulation at large and to boot he could actually use his nen to enhance it (however as netero is not actually in contact with the thing he would require emission to do that). Theoretically it would be simpler than using 3 nen types to create it however to actually be effective in battle having to use emission to enhance the thing with nen would be a pain one way or another.

In my eyes the statue at large does not fit any particular nen type nor combination of them if we consider that netero is an enhancer. At some point in the manga it was said that you could actually become a specialization nen type later in life(although it was more common with manipulators or conjurers). Now, we at some point saw that netero retreated to the mountains for his training. During this time we saw that netero spent every waking hour punching and praying. As we have seen, that is pretty much EXACTLY what netero does to attack with kannon. He makes a prayer and then kannon imitates netero's movements. Its not like netero went to do that training to get stronger, he went there with the idea of showing gratitude for everything he had gotten of martial arts. More so, once he got faster at his routine he simply prayed more. By the manga's words this pretty much enlightened netero or something. What if the sheer insanity of the little training netero put himself through actually developed this nen as a specialization nen? It would make sense as specialization is not even a nen type per say, it is simply the category that techniques which fit in nowhere (cough kannon cough) go to.

Yes there are many possibilities but i think the most probable combo is enhancement/emission/manipulation.

kkck
June 08, 2012, 10:28 AM
Under your logic emission itself would be enhancement though. The manga does not work that way, adding more power to an emitted attack is not reinforcement, its just more emission. Reinforcement in principles requires you to use nen to enhance something other than nen basically. Making rocks of fists harder, making a sword stronger, you name it. Just adding nen to nen is not really going to do anything to actually reinforce nen, it is merely going to behave as more nen.

The manga has made a clear distinction between materialization and anything else. A materialized object might have in origins in nen however the object itself is not nen. It is a physical thing which a non nen user would not actually be able to distinguish from a normal object. Since a conjured object is an actual physical thing with the properties and limitations of whatever it is supposed to be, it can be enhanced with nen as you could enhance pretty much any object. Emission is intrinsically different, adding or concentrating more nen into it is simply more emission, not reinforcement.

Kinda like kurapica's chain for that matter. Kurapica does not have the option to materialize the hell out of it to make it stronger, his only alternative would be the use reinforcement on it (which he could). If kurapica had a chain made of, say, emission and transformation though, he would be able to make a stronger chain by simply emitting more nen into it.

---------- Post added at 10:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

Also, if netero is making the whole thing the standard way (and not with some sort of weird acquired specialization) then he would require transformation, not just emission and manipulation. Kannon could not possibly have a shape that complex without transformation.

Demonspeed
June 09, 2012, 05:41 AM
Like Uriel said,nen techniques are all related to other types.For example,Hisoka and Machi's hatsu are purely transformation techniques, but the weak point of their hatsu is emmission. Hisoka can't extend Bungee Gum more than 10 meters because his emmision skills are weak,the more Machi's threads are far ,the more their power is weakened. Enhancement is a nen type very basic. Even Wing said that they just have to train Ten and Ren to become stronger.When Gon has developped "Rock", he learnt later that it's just Ko etc.Enhancement is an ameliorated version of Ten,Ren and Ko. It's why they have the best offense and defense.Even when you are adding more Nen into something,you are using enhancement but enhancers do it better. When you increase your aura or add more aura into something you do it via basic techniques Ten,Ren,Shu etc...This is enhancement.

Uriel
June 09, 2012, 07:10 AM
Not quite. Actually kkck has a strong point about"You can't strength your aura by putting more aura". What you enhance is your body. The edge, the speed, whatever that is a property able to be strengthen.

In Machi case, I think She materializes the thread.

Demonspeed
June 09, 2012, 08:52 AM
Machi is confirmed transformation(this is shape transformation).

And about "You can't strength your aura by putting more aura" i think that it's a problem of vocabulary.
It's true that you can't do that.To enhance your aura you don't need to add more aura but just to strengthen it even if you keep the same volume. Example:Gon and Killua have the same volume of aura but Gon has better Ten,Ren and Ko because is aura is naturally strengthened by his enhancement type. You can reinforce your aura without necessarily add more volume to it.It would be a waste.

Now with emission types, even if they emit aura they just have to strengthen it via basic techniques(like Ten,Ren,Ko,Shu) which are all enhancement. They don't put more volume,they reinforce it. The aura has the same volume but has better qualities(offense and defense boost).

Uriel
June 09, 2012, 01:59 PM
I know She's Transformation, I'm saying that it's very likely that She uses as a secondary type instead of Emission, Materialization.

And Killua is better, and it was shown many times in GI. Look the scene when they jump.

And no, basic techniques ARE NOT Enhancement. Enhancement IS to ENHANCE something and basic techniques is what you do with aura alone. Let me be more clear: You can Enhance a knife to cut trough most things. If you apply your aura to the kinfe, it doesn't mean that will cut trough most things. It could be that it cuts dimension, throws fireballs, open gates, summon something...Am I being clear?

Umibouzu
June 09, 2012, 03:41 PM
From being an abilities mod on a HxH RP forum, i can tell you that there's a clear notion behind this discussion thats being unnoticed: Many complex abilities use multiple strengths from different hatsu, not just Enhancement or Conjuration. So labeling Knuckle's Hakoware as Emission OR Conjuration is crazy, because he could easily be using a combination of the three to do it (Conj. Emiss. Manip.) but the key to finding what Affinity he has would be to find out how his hatsu works, since it doesnt work at all when away from the user, we could assume it has very little Emission skill, and since he conjures it on someone else, we can assume he has higher than average Conj/Manip skills in order to stick it onto someone, and keep it conjured there. We could assume he's the best at Conjuration by understanding the strengths and weaknesses of his hatsu. Same with Morel,

Gon proves that people can have abilities other than their Affinity, but the rules of Nen tell us that Gon will have a hard time using Manipulation and Conjuration, and will take longer to use effectively. Which is why Biscuit had him work on the his best categories, Enhancement, Emission and Transmutation because he could learn them faster and use them better.



And no, basic techniques ARE NOT Enhancement. Enhancement IS to ENHANCE something and basic techniques is what you do with aura alone. Let me be more clear: You can Enhance a knife to cut trough most things. If you apply your aura to the kinfe, it doesn't mean that will cut trough most things. It could be that it cuts dimension, throws fireballs, open gates, summon something...Am I being clear?

Enhancement and Basic Nen abilities go hand and hand. for example, Enhancement is a purely supportive thing, it makes someone stronger, faster, more durable and can be used on any thing in the body. But the problem is that's all it can do, Enhancement doesnt break someone's face, Enhancing your fist does. So when Enhancers like Gon, or Uvogin, or Palm use Enhancement Hatsu, they take that all that aura they dont need since their body is now stronger, faster and more durable and put it into a Ko or Ken or Ren. Uvogin was a master or Ko and Ken, because his body was so superhuman, he did this:

Natural Strength + Enhanced Strength + Ko = Big Bang Shot

Thats why Gon's Rock is just a Ko strike, because adding all that aura with the above formula makes for one hell of an attack. And adding aura to a blade, that's Shu. Everyone can do it.

Uriel
June 09, 2012, 06:24 PM
In GON goes hand to Hand. Most of Enhancers use basic techniques because they're that: simple. It doesn't mean that Enhancement is basic techniques, because if you look closely everything is made of basic techniques.

kkck
June 09, 2012, 11:41 PM
I actually agree on his point. Rock is ultimately nothing complicated at all, rock is simply ko. Nothing less and nothing more. Gon simply gets a bonus for it (knuckle pointed it out) because it suits him or something. Enhancement ultimately is simply using simple techniques to extremes. The same could be said for uvogin's big bang, it is simply ko, a punch packed with nen.

Still, ultimately enhancement is about enhancing the properties of something. Ko enhances whatever limb it is being used on for example. As far as the shu bit for blades and other weapons though, I think there are techniques which we haven't been shown. Shu is basically extending ren over something and making it as if it was a part of your body. However how about a version were you extend ken over it? And what about if you concentrate your aura on it as if with ko?

As for machi, I doubt she uses emission for the most part. As long as she has contact with the string she does not need it at all. Separating it from herself does require emission but in turn it was already said it weakens significantly from it. I have my doubts that the string uses any level of materialization. As far as we know the string does not have the properties of any given actual thing, it is simply a nen string.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------


Machi is confirmed transformation(this is shape transformation).

And about "You can't strength your aura by putting more aura" i think that it's a problem of vocabulary.
It's true that you can't do that.To enhance your aura you don't need to add more aura but just to strengthen it even if you keep the same volume. Example:Gon and Killua have the same volume of aura but Gon has better Ten,Ren and Ko because is aura is naturally strengthened by his enhancement type. You can reinforce your aura without necessarily add more volume to it.It would be a waste.

Now with emission types, even if they emit aura they just have to strengthen it via basic techniques(like Ten,Ren,Ko,Shu) which are all enhancement. They don't put more volume,they reinforce it. The aura has the same volume but has better qualities(offense and defense boost).

Well, that wouldn't be enhancing aura though, I would argue that is simply concentrating aura. Basically more aura not enhanced aura.

TheAmericandream
June 11, 2012, 02:12 PM
I have to admit, reading all this only has me more confused about Netero's Hatsu... :P

Could it be at least said his ability could be done with either Materialization or Emission? At that point I'd assume he'd chose the one closer to his natural typing. Even as skilled as he is, that makes sense to me.

I'd like to talk about Zeno in this thread as well. Is it official that he's a transmutation type like Killua? Because his various Dragon Hatsu seem to involve both Manipulation and Emission. If there was no record of his typing I'd sear he's Emission type. Could someone make the argument for him being Transmutation? It's never made sense to me (him being transmutation)

Uriel
June 11, 2012, 08:21 PM
I felt the same about him. It was so...confusing. I guess Togashi has to explain a bit more about Hatsu to make things more clear. If I can take ANY conclusion from Zeno is that when you're badass you ignore the whole system :P

kkck
June 11, 2012, 11:20 PM
Well, the transmutation part of zeno's hatsu makes sense. Giving his nen the shape of a dragon is ultimately transmutation. Also, the first time we saw him fight he did not actually emitted the dragon, he was in contact with it the whole time much like hisoka with his bungee gum or maki with her string. Now, the issue her seems to be that zeno is indeed very proficient with emission. He actually emitted the dragon during the fight with the ants and actually manupulated it to divide into many smaller dragons. Ultimately it is a rather high level of emission to say the least. Perhaps it is something he perfected over the years and does come at a great price though. Zeno is very old though, it is possible he is able to use emission to as good as a degree as possible for a materialization user. Its not like what he did is in itself exceedingly complicated. Giving shape to his dragon should come naturally for him. After that it is a matter of having it maintain its power for a moderate distance so that it can be useful. Even then, there is still the consideration that we have no idea of how much power the dragon loses when being emitted rather than being used in the same manner as against chrollo. For all we know there is a considerable difference.

TheAmericandream
June 12, 2012, 01:45 AM
Honestly, in my brain its an emission hatsu, I really enjoy Nen for its restrictions, perhaps Togashi wrote that Zeno and Silva were Transmutation before the start of Yorknew and forgot when he wrote the fight scene between Chrollo and the Zoldycks? I'd love to see it get clarified later on. Emission type training is the number 1 thing I'd like to see with Nen next in the manga.

Uriel
June 12, 2012, 05:03 PM
Probably we wont see any more training of Nen unless Gon decided to materialize a rod :P

TheAmericandream
June 12, 2012, 06:05 PM
I dunno, we didn't see all of Kurapika's training but we understand how Conjuring works for the most part. I'd love to see something like that explaining Leorio's powers and thus sort of shedding more light on Emission. I think there are a few more Nen Training bits we might get later, not that I feel we need it.

Uriel
June 12, 2012, 07:17 PM
I do think we need it, actually. But do you really think there will be one more Training Arc? After all, Gon has Ging now to teach him.

TheAmericandream
June 14, 2012, 12:53 PM
Very true, I would appreciate a training arc so long as it fits the story and teaches us something new while not contradicting anyone.

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 AM ----------

Does anyone have any strong argument for the nen category Gotoh most likely falls into? I would think Enhancement judging by Gido, but I don't really know.

Uriel
June 14, 2012, 01:33 PM
Considering that the coin is real, I would say Manipulation. Fits well in that category personality wise also.

Demonspeed
June 14, 2012, 03:29 PM
I think he conjures pieces and enhance them,so enhancement type.But if pieces aren't real i would say that he is an emitter.

kkck
June 14, 2012, 03:50 PM
I think the coins are actually real. I doubt he would be a conjurer. Using enhancement or emission as a conjurer would not allow for good results either. Manipulation is a definite no IMO for the simple reason that nothing of which he did actually required manipulation. Even the rotation the coins had could be explained without that. Gotoh's ability was basically charging his coins with nen and using them as weapons, without doing any actual control over them I doubt it would make sense he had manipulation.

Basically gotoh's nen is either reinforcement(100%) with emission (80%) or emission (100%) with reinforcement(80%). The reinforcement part is obvious, he is packing the coins with nen after all. Emission is a must because otherwise the coins would lose power rather fast after losing contact with his body. I can't really say which one specifically he is using, either combination would actually seem to work well. Perhaps emission is the better fit overall as it does not seem he is packing that much power into each coin, it seems just shu(or perhaps a similar version but applied with ren or ken) over them which is maintained over a distance. In this regard, as shu is a relatively simply technique which does not apply a lot of power so it would make more sense if the priority was on maintaining all of this power on the coin. If the coins were actually packing a lot of power (say, kinda like putting ko over them) I would lean towards reinforcement though.

Uriel
June 14, 2012, 04:08 PM
After reading your analysis, kkck, I will say Emission then. Just following Hisoka personality Hatsu Test. He's not straightforward at all.

---------- Post added at 06:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 PM ----------

AND BTW...Now I think His technique was mediocre.

Demonspeed
June 14, 2012, 04:29 PM
I agree with kkck but i have never said he was a conjurer. I think he conjures them because carry many pieces while fighting would not be advantageous.

kkck
June 14, 2012, 08:38 PM
I agree with kkck but i have never said he was a conjurer. I think he conjures them because carry many pieces while fighting would not be advantageous.

Well, conjuring them is a problem in itself. Whether he is emission or reinforcement he is remarkably far away from the category to start with. Perhaps it would be viable with enough training but conjuring coins that fast is bound to be an issue. It would be a practical approach in the sense that he wouldn't run out of weapons but the issue of the penalty cannot be avoided. Besides, here is actual conclusive proof that the coins are not conjured.
http://www.mangareader.net/hunter-x-hunter/327/18
If the coins were conjured he should theoretically be able to make them disappear as well. So if the coins are conjured, why block them one at a time? The coins are most likely actual coins. Perhaps the seemingly limitless number of coins is a bit of a joke or perhaps he keeps them under his sleeve lol.

TheAmericandream
June 15, 2012, 04:00 AM
The coin technique is not that great, but I'm okay with that since as awesome as Gotoh is, I want him to have an inferior ability to the Zoldyck family themselves. I think he was a competent fighter, but he came up against someone much better. I'd place Gotoh on par (or slightly above) with the average Chimera Ant Division captain who recently learned Nen.

Demonspeed
June 15, 2012, 04:21 AM
Well, conjuring them is a problem in itself. Whether he is emission or reinforcement he is remarkably far away from the category to start with. Perhaps it would be viable with enough training but conjuring coins that fast is bound to be an issue. It would be a practical approach in the sense that he wouldn't run out of weapons but the issue of the penalty cannot be avoided. Besides, here is actual conclusive proof that the coins are not conjured.
http://www.mangareader.net/hunter-x-hunter/327/18
If the coins were conjured he should theoretically be able to make them disappear as well. So if the coins are conjured, why block them one at a time? The coins are most likely actual coins. Perhaps the seemingly limitless number of coins is a bit of a joke or perhaps he keeps them under his sleeve lol.

I agree.So we can say he is an enhancer or emitter and his technique is really bad.Even Gon and Killua could beat him.He loses seconds when he takes new coins and coins are not infinite...

TheAmericandream
June 15, 2012, 02:28 PM
For some reason it makes me sad to think of Gon rocking Gotoh's shit. I still think Ja Janken is not all that great either. I'm really looking forward to seeing Gon's fighting abilities fleshed out further so he can catch up to Killua.

kkck
June 15, 2012, 04:59 PM
Well, on strictly technical terms jajanken sucks lol, at least as it is now. As we have seen jajanken is massively underdeveloped due to gon's inexperience. It needs refining. As a result, paper is slow and significantly weaker than rock, rock is powerful but charging takes too long which goes rather badly with the fact that gon is defenseless when he uses it. And scissors.... Well, from what I can tell from the fight with that armadillo ant it works reasonably well, actually better than either. It seems to have moderate power at least and can be made rather fast. Theoretically it should be less useful than paper as gon seems to have an affinity for emission.

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------


I agree.So we can say he is an enhancer or emitter and his technique is really bad.Even Gon and Killua could beat him.He loses seconds when he takes new coins and coins are not infinite...

Why can we say his technique is very bad? There is more to the technique than just that. When it comes to hatsu if there are things which limit them it tends to make the hatsu stronger. The fact that gotoh has a limited amount of coins, the fact that one way or another there are 2 nen types involved, the fact that he has to draw more coins, it should all have an effect to making the hatsu more powerful. Still, it did not seem to take him long to draw more coins, not even those few seconds. Its not like drawing coins was even an issue against hisoka.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 PM ----------

On that note, I wouldn't say gon would beat gotoh easily. Gon is skilled but gotoh has at least been doing the whole nen thing since before gon. This means that a few issues which gon has should not be present with goton, namely the whole awkward nen control thing which gon has going on. Killua should definitely win though, his speed is insane on a bad day.

TheAmericandream
June 15, 2012, 05:25 PM
Yes, I think Gon is generally perhaps overrated by fans here. If we aren't counting Macho (powered up) Gon transformation, he's fallen severely behind Killua during the events of the Chimera Ant art. Something I noticed right before the palace invasion. I wonder if Gon will develop a second technique or just work on improving on JaJanken. I've never really been a huge fan of it post GI. The fight with Knuckle just made me realize how limited it is, and how versatile Killua's ability is in comparison. Gon was only able to do as well as he did against his opponents in NGL because of his natural instincts and good analysis of his opponent (some of which required Knuckle knowing about JaJanken so feints would work).

While we're on the topic of usable Enhancement abiltiies, does Uvogin in fact have the best Enhancement ability? Since it is so straight forward? Most of the others we've seen (Phinks, Gon, Netero, Gido) seem very reliant on gimmicks that don't work out that well, require too much start up time, or require decades of training to master. I think this is partially why Enhancement is probably my least favorite form of Hatsu. Transmutation and Emission have always seem more versatile to me in terms of battle usage special abilities.

Uriel
June 15, 2012, 05:50 PM
Transmutation IS the vanguard on versatile techniques. Maybe ALL of what we saw had many applications and was hell useful.

And I agree, Gon technique sucks. When Gon got the Knight thingie on GI I thought that maybe Togashi wanted to develop Gon as some sort of Knight to keep the lecture about stereotype characters, but after seeing the Macho Gon I was not so sure.
He needs a second technique to make Jajanken the final move.

Demonspeed
June 16, 2012, 09:35 AM
Yes, I think Gon is generally perhaps overrated by fans here. If we aren't counting Macho (powered up) Gon transformation, he's fallen severely behind Killua during the events of the Chimera Ant art. Something I noticed right before the palace invasion. I wonder if Gon will develop a second technique or just work on improving on JaJanken. I've never really been a huge fan of it post GI. The fight with Knuckle just made me realize how limited it is, and how versatile Killua's ability is in comparison. Gon was only able to do as well as he did against his opponents in NGL because of his natural instincts and good analysis of his opponent (some of which required Knuckle knowing about JaJanken so feints would work).



Killua is my favorite character but i think he has been overrated by the fans since he created Kanmuru,it's true that it's one of the best techniques we have seen so far but it doesn't put him at a totally different level compared to Gon.He has never really used this in a fight that he could win and his 2 others techniques are not that great too.Even if i know that he is stronger than Gon i am not sure he can beat him because Gon is unpredictable and can one shot him when he is in battle mode.

About nen techniques i don't remember clearly but i think Biscuit said it take some years to finalize hatsu in GI arc.

Mylesime
June 16, 2012, 12:22 PM
Concerning gotoh, his ability simply sucks, i don't know how to put that another way. I mean, using shu to enhance the destructive power of an object that you throw.......ubo did the same thing with mere rocks. Adding the fact that he couldn't even control the trajectory.....Worse, i don't know if he could gain a bonus, kowing that the number of coins was limited and taht he seemed to like them, but he hadn't even enough power to pass trough hisoka defense while, so......
With Gon, I think that we have to remember that he's far from having finalized his hatsu. Basically, he can emit his aura, has an amazing ability to concentrate it, and more importantly, he can change the shape of his aura giving it the property to cut. That's far more fickle than others enhancers such as uvoguine, phinx or gotoh if he indeed belongs to this category. On the other side i haven't seen anything from uvo that gon can't replicate .
The jajanken is also adapted to close, mid range and long range figths.
Togashi has started to show the possibilities,using the jajanken as a decoy, or combining the three form.......one after another. But why couldn't Gon combine the differents forms of his hatsu simultaneously?
You know, like throwing krilin like aura blast (in dbz), or giving his ken the property of cuting anything who comes in contact with it?
Gon hatsu is still a work in progress but he has an amazing margin of progress

kkck
June 16, 2012, 03:35 PM
Well, in an emission scenario I would argue gotoh would have been superior to someone using simple nen bullets. He was enhancing the properties of the coins (an object which for some reason has some significance to him) and he had a limited number of them. Ultimately this is the exact kind of scenario where someone gets a boost for determination and whatnot. The issue ultimately was not that gotoh's ability sucked, the issue was that hisoka is insanely strong on a bad day. Heck, hisoka should be by all intents and purposes even stronger than most zodiacs.

As for gon's nen, well, the issue is exclusively that he is still young. His rock being slow charging, his slow emission or whatever flaw his sword has can all be fix with time. Eventually his paper will end up being just about as good as razor's nen ball, his rock about as good as uvogin's big bang punch and his sword about as good as... a nen sword (LOL?). I don't think we will actually see gon using a fully developed hatsu nor how it would work under such scenario, it would take too long.

Uriel
June 16, 2012, 07:37 PM
After all He DID talked with Ging and He seemed to talk long with him. A few tips could have improved Gon's technique.
And now I just don't know where to fit Gotoh. I honestly don't know. I mean...His technique was actually a poor combination of basic techniques.

BTW, did you think that Canary has learned Nen?

kkck
June 17, 2012, 12:23 AM
Canary most definitely knows nen. We know that she has killed hunters before and her nen fed granny's motorcycle thing a while back. She seems to use a weapon though... Considering her personality I think she is an enhancer which would fit well with her weapon.

Demonspeed
June 18, 2012, 12:56 PM
Nen will definitely be improved outside.Not only inscriptions of chapter 60 are similar to chapter 338 but also those of the piece of iron.

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/44/08-065.0/compressed/08_02_17.jpg

Uriel
June 18, 2012, 01:08 PM
I've the same impression. Also, knowing that Ging is interested on ancient ruins and He's versed on Nen, makes me think there is a direct relationship. And on top of that, the map and that weird draw done by Togashi when explaining Nen that I pointed out on the Anime Discussion which have an awfully similar style (I love that word)
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5qw0umU941qhtpry.png
I like it better in the anime rather than manga because it's easier to see the resemblances. (http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter60/153164-4.html)
http://i.imgur.com/C2uGw.jpg

The old thread is here in case anyone want to follow this discussion. (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/76828-Outside-World-Humans/page2)

kkck
June 19, 2012, 08:07 AM
His technique was actually a poor combination of basic techniques.

Isn't that a tad too harsh? I don't get the impression that gotoh's hatsu was that terrible to say the least. None of the things which seem to be an inconvenient actually were inconvenient for one thing. Neither the number of coins he can have nor the rate at which he can fire them were ever an issue at least. If anything, any potential difficulty would actually just add to his determination and make his nen stronger. Ultimately, why would his technique be weaker than any other potentially similar one which did not use coins? Assuming similar power levels there is no reason for his bullets to be weaker than say, franklins.

Demonspeed
June 21, 2012, 04:43 PM
About Gotoh, where would you place him in a tiers list do you think he can beat a ryodan?

TheAmericandream
June 21, 2012, 04:46 PM
I think most of the Spiders who focus on battle (Uvogin, Phinks, Feitan, Franklin, Machi, Bonolenov) and Chrollo could all beat Gotoh without too much effort. While I think Gotoh is stronger then say the Nostrade Clan bodyguards or the handicapped gimps from Heaven's Arena, I don't think Gotoh is any stronger then the Shadowbeast members we saw fighting Uvogin (remember they almost beat Uvogin as a team).

Uriel
June 21, 2012, 05:46 PM
Isn't that a tad too harsh? I don't get the impression that gotoh's hatsu was that terrible to say the least. None of the things which seem to be an inconvenient actually were inconvenient for one thing. Neither the number of coins he can have nor the rate at which he can fire them were ever an issue at least. If anything, any potential difficulty would actually just add to his determination and make his nen stronger. Ultimately, why would his technique be weaker than any other potentially similar one which did not use coins? Assuming similar power levels there is no reason for his bullets to be weaker than say, franklins.
It's not the coins or the quantity, but the amount of things He can do with it. It's QUITE limited. Same as Guido, actually, but instead of hammer power is bullet power. Making them move and rotate is just about the same as what Guido did, but cooler by design. There is no much to do in multiple situations which makes his technique, in the end, poor.
And well...I would like to see Franklin in a dire situation when He's not facing any mobs.

And BTW...Yesterday I was thinking while I was taking an exam (Yes, not the best place but...) that the Nen Gon used against Pitou, that famous "Unknown Nen Type" is Enhancement. I mean...He just boosted himself, He not even shown a difference in his technique. He was just badass strong. So the weird thing there was not the Hatsu Type, but the Oath used.

Demonspeed
June 22, 2012, 09:37 AM
And well...I would like to see Franklin in a dire situation when He's not facing any mobs.

.

Franklin is a good hand to hand fighter and the 4th strongest physically in the Ryodan. I really want to see a serious fight between an enhancer and emitter ,this kind of battle would be great.

Uriel
June 22, 2012, 09:59 AM
Franklin is a good hand to hand fighter and the 4th strongest physically in the Ryodan. I really want to see a serious fight between an enhancer and emitter ,this kind of battle would be great.
I forgot the rank!
And yes, I would like to see less fodder fights for some Ryodan. Franklin and Phinx, particularly.

TheAmericandream
June 22, 2012, 02:07 PM
Phinks feels like "less good Uvogin", but being stronger then Hisoka physically says a lot! Phinks and Franklin probably pack a hell of a punch. I find Phinks' Hatsu to be rather stupid though (only a bit better then JaJanken) I would also love to see Machi against an opponent who isn't a mook, since she ranks right under Feitan and Franklin I think she'd be pretty strong and I'd like to see more applications of the Nen threads.

kkck
June 22, 2012, 07:42 PM
It's not the coins or the quantity, but the amount of things He can do with it. It's QUITE limited. Same as Guido, actually, but instead of hammer power is bullet power. Making them move and rotate is just about the same as what Guido did, but cooler by design. There is no much to do in multiple situations which makes his technique, in the end, poor.
And well...I would like to see Franklin in a dire situation when He's not facing any mobs.

And BTW...Yesterday I was thinking while I was taking an exam (Yes, not the best place but...) that the Nen Gon used against Pitou, that famous "Unknown Nen Type" is Enhancement. I mean...He just boosted himself, He not even shown a difference in his technique. He was just badass strong. So the weird thing there was not the Hatsu Type, but the Oath used.

Well, even in that regard it is not significantly different from most hatsu. Gon barely makes up for it because his hatsu has 3 techniques. Individually each of them is about as limited as gotoh's hatsu. Razor's nen ball is on principle the same thing, except that rather than multiple attacks we are talking a single strong one. Even his nen guys are not relevant here as they reduce his overall power and needs to take them back in to actually use his full power. Uvo, franklin and phynx can barely do anything with their nen, at best they smash stuff. And to be fair, gotoh's nen is in principle the same as franklins. Ultimately, gotoh's nen is not any less useful than the standard hatsu in the series, they all have limited stuff they can and cannot do in any given situation. I would even go as far as arguing that nen that can be used with more versatility than the average are extremely rare, difficult to use, lack significantly more in specific areas than more simple nen or do not fall into any particular nen category (specialization). Take hisoka. His nen actually gives him 0 offensive power. He uses it to that extent, well, because of sheer awesomeness. Machi has a damn string. If she need something broken and her punches don't cut it she is screwed. Granted she has a different combat style but still... Heck, nen as a whole is built around the fact that it always will be quite limited. Togashi went as far as developing the nen type chart to show specifically how each individual will be limited when making a hatsu. Gotoh's hatsu is not more or less limited than any other hatsu in the series.


As far as gon and his adult transformation.... Well, the scenario of him using enhancement to enhance his growth to his strongest possible adult form is perfectly viable. I would argue the issue lies elsewhere simply because this is the sort of manga where this matters. When gon used his technique we saw increases in two things which don't really make sense with any nen at all. First, his mass actually increased. Where did sustenance for such a thing come from? Second, gon's overall amount of nen increased. Neither of those things make a shred of sense with what we actually know of nen. It ignored principles of mass, time... and everything. In this regard, I would argue the technique nen used does not fall into any particular nen category and thus it should be considered a specialization technique. Or do we assume gon materialized many times his body weight, assimilated it into his body and got that form? Which makes no sense considering gon has never gotten any materialization training and he is very far away from the category. Even that would not explain where the sheer amount of nen came from. Or does it make sense for his pledge and determination to make stuff appear to make him larger? A strong pledge would perhaps explain the insane amount of nen but not the rest.

TheAmericandream
June 23, 2012, 02:34 PM
So we have Porcupine the little track suit assassin from the Shadowbeasts (Injyuu), he can grow and manipulate his hair...hair are dead cells, but hair growth hmm...is that manipulation or enhancement? or both? I always thought it was actually a good ability, but later on we have Palm Siberia in her Chimera Ant form, when she fights Killua its explained shes still Enhancer type, but she can also control her hair (though only just to wrap around her body) and then strengthen it like armor so she doesn't have to use Nen defense. So are these similar abilities? And would they count as pure Enhancement, or is their Manipulation involved as I would suspect.

Porcupine pics
http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16378/153194/c82d64a97a01ac0869fcb90cd22b96c0.jpg

http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16378/153194/e31187e638aaf1bb37a436452de8230e.jpg


Palm pics
http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16378/186932/b5cf1a7492f1a1c6cfbe3345fe036fa4.jpg

http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16378/186932/855b4642241939e09a5b4286c444bde7.jpg

http://pic.tenmanga.com/comics/16378/187217/30a07efdd56787dcc65e46008f71b1d1.jpg


I'm pretty sure they both use Manipulation and that Porcupine is a Manipulator, while Palm uses much more limited manipulation abilities to create the armor and uses Enhancement for offense and strengthening her hair so that she can use Kou with her attacks. But I was just curious what others thought.

What about the other Shadowbeasts? The Wolf guy's teeth and the guy who carries leeches with him..What aura type do you think they are, just judging by what we know?

As a sidenote, reading this stuff, man I can't wait for Viz to translate the rest of NGL (this dialogue is killing me, who talks like this)

Uriel
June 23, 2012, 06:08 PM
@kkck:
Not really. If you take Razor, you realize that his power was still frightening and his devils could even talk and stuff...Which we know makes the technique tricky to categorize, since it could make it easier or harder to control due that. So Razor handle multiple attacks AS WELL as single attacks.
And seems interesting that He doesn't depend a lot of what He has, so Gotoh coins becomes a more absurd technique considering that the force of bullets can be obtained with other methods more efficient. In the end, Gotoh had insufficient memory as Hisoka says.
He could develop a better technique for his coins, but He chose to have only two miserable effects (Bullet Strength, Rotation...Which in any case could be done by applying In without too much trouble by respectable Nen users)

What you say about Hatsu in the series...I honestly don't think so. So long we have seen MANY techniques with one simple principle and many effects. Take the bag from Fukuru, Basho from the bodyguards of Nostrade or Shachmono. All of them were weak, but their technique was useful and versatile.
In the defense of Machi...Her strings are as metal if I recall correctly. She has a pretty much versatile technique, since She can fight, sense and even heal with them.

About Gon...He enhanced his own body accelerating everything and resulting in instant growth and increasing the amount of aura. It was potential transformed in aura. It's a principle of enhancement, I think. I'm not sure, though.

--------------------
About Porcupine and Palm...Is she really an Enhancement user? What about her ability to see beyond? :O She has PLENTY of abilities now that I think about her.

According to wiki:
Merman Clairvoyance (former)
Type: Enhancement and Conjuration
So...How the fuck this is Enhancement?
Wink Blue (The Lonesome Deep Sea Fish)
Type: Enhancement

Black Widow appears as Enhancement alone, but I do agree fits more with Manipulation on that side. It's only Manipulation to take the shape and then just enhanced. Porcupine seemed to directly manipulating his hair.
But what makes me wondering is that clairvoyance seems to be related with Enhancement. Why? How?

kkck
June 24, 2012, 11:05 AM
I think the porcupine guy was primarily enhancement. We are talking about a guy who could make his hair strong enough to pierce uvo'd defenses here. Manipulation alone would not grant him that and even if he used both being that far away from enhancement would not make sense to me at least. Maybe he had some other pledge to make it stronger but I still would argue enhancement being his primary nen type makes the most sense. After all, the level of manipulation he would require is minimal.

Uriel
June 24, 2012, 11:10 AM
Yeah,, you're spot on about controlling hair. After all, it's owned by the user so it shouldn't be THAT MUCH difficult. Now I see how it's enhancement.
Still can't see clairvoyance though :O

kkck
June 24, 2012, 11:18 AM
@kkck:
Not really. If you take Razor, you realize that his power was still frightening and his devils could even talk and stuff...Which we know makes the technique tricky to categorize, since it could make it easier or harder to control due that. So Razor handle multiple attacks AS WELL as single attacks.
And seems interesting that He doesn't depend a lot of what He has, so Gotoh coins becomes a more absurd technique considering that the force of bullets can be obtained with other methods more efficient. In the end, Gotoh had insufficient memory as Hisoka says.
He could develop a better technique for his coins, but He chose to have only two miserable effects (Bullet Strength, Rotation...Which in any case could be done by applying In without too much trouble by respectable Nen users)

What you say about Hatsu in the series...I honestly don't think so. So long we have seen MANY techniques with one simple principle and many effects. Take the bag from Fukuru, Basho from the bodyguards of Nostrade or Shachmono. All of them were weak, but their technique was useful and versatile.
In the defense of Machi...Her strings are as metal if I recall correctly. She has a pretty much versatile technique, since She can fight, sense and even heal with them.

About Gon...He enhanced his own body accelerating everything and resulting in instant growth and increasing the amount of aura. It was potential transformed in aura. It's a principle of enhancement, I think. I'm not sure, though.


Well, yeah, razor had a lot power power but that is something independent from his actual technique. Overall using his demons did place a significant strain on him. His demons do have uses but they come at a significant cost. I would question the extent to which they would be useful in a battle against someone strong. Heck, using them against someone strong actually puts him at a significant risk if they get destroyed. If they get destroyed it could have a significant mental impact on him and cost him a lot of nen.

Why would other methods be more efficient, in particular for gotoh? A big deal about hatsu is using something that suits you. If gotoh has a fetish for coins then using coins will grant him a sort of benefit, that is how nen works. And there is no reason for gotoh's technique to not be useful or versatile either. It simply works as a standard emission technique but with coins.

Machi's strings are not metal. They are transmuted from nen so they are made purely out of nen basically. I don't think it has ever been said they take after any material in particular and considering how it works it does not seem to work like anything in particular either.

Uriel
June 24, 2012, 11:34 AM
I never said they WERE metal, but they are strong as. Also, it must be materialized at some point or Hisoka arms would have fall off.

And even if Razor has a cost over those demons, they're there for something. It's obvious that it's not the solely technique Razor has, since it's obvious He did not went serious when confronting Gon's group.

About Gotoh...Yeah, it fits for him and everything but that doesn't mean it's versatile. It's lame, since his uses are limited to MANY cases and He proved to be insufficient to use those limitations as strengths.

kkck
June 24, 2012, 01:15 PM
As far as I know the strings are never materialized at any point. I would argue she uses some level of emission to maintain them in the cases where she needs to keep them separated. Its a bit far from her category though. It seems she is able to emit them considering the page describing the technique mentions that it loses strength once it separates from machi.

But why would gotoh's technique be any less versatile than any other emission though? Its just that, a standard nen bullet technique. The only limitation he could possibly have over other techniques is the amount of coins but other than that there is no actual drawback over doing the same thing without the coins. And for all we know that drawbacks makes the coins stronger which would more than make up for the drawback of lack of coins.


He proved to be insufficient to use those limitations as strengths.
I have no idea of what you are talking about there.

Uriel
June 24, 2012, 01:43 PM
But those strings are materialized. It has no sense if not what She did with Hisoka. And most techniques have a bit of everything, so it's not that strange to consider it.

And when I say use those limitations as strengths...See Gon. He used his limitation of the predictive pose as a way to fool the enemy. See Kurapika, who picked the right chains for the right enemies but He did not left himself defenseless against other enemies while gaining immense power against Ryodan. See Kaito, which limitation was a random pick of weapons, but every of them were hell useful. And allowed him to get back from death.

Limitations are only good when the price is worthy for. As far as I know, Gotoh's coins did not granted him any useful "price" if not He would have used it. Not a special power, not a special combinations. He just used them as bullets that spin. That can easily be countered.

And about Franklin...I'm sure his fighting style doesn't involve such a predictive way. He seems wise enough. And his bullets can go trough even Nen based objects. Which BTW, Gotoh's coins couldn't.

Demonspeed
June 24, 2012, 01:55 PM
I agree Machi uses certainly materialization.

Now about Palm, it seems that she was a clairvoyant before learning sense,if she was,it makes sense.She conjures the ball and her talent of clairvoyance is boosted by enhancement type,and she detects persons via her emission skills.

TheAmericandream
June 24, 2012, 03:31 PM
Is any of this ever stated or just guessed off the wiki? I'd make more sense to me if the mermaid was just a rare occult item she uses to enhance her natural clairvoyant abilities. But I guess I assumed most supernatural things in HxH related to humans was Nen. Palm is the one that confuses me, I suppose your own hair being connected to your body controlling it might not be that difficult. I overall think its a good ability, and with years of training It seemed mostly effective, Uvo had to scream to counter it, so same can go for Palm's hair armor. If we can assume Clairvoyance is something even non Nen users can utilize, or that its enhancing her natural sixth sense...then I'm okay with it. That's the only answer I can come up with, but I think its still weird since most psychic abilities in HxH are explained by being Specialization Nen.

I also think since the manga says Machi is a transmuter, and it also says she transmutes (in the manga) it has the form of a wire, its resistent is reversely proportionate to its length. If it was a conjured ability, wouldn't it maintain strength regardless of distance? Unless that was a condition she put on it, but I don't know if she'd acquire that kinda strength like that. I prefer to go with the simple explanation, especially since she has one of the first Nen abilities ever shown, I've always seen it as very simple and versatile. It's possible she uses some conjuring to maintain it after the surgery is done, like a secondary ability to explain Hisoka's arms, but I think its just sub par emission keeping it together, which is strong enough to allow Hisoka to heal but not strong enough to say, endure a fight without them falling apart. So I guess the argument here is whether or not her secondary typing for Nen threads is emission or conjuring, but its obviously primarily (80%) a simple transmutation ability.


Also about Gotoh, his restrictions mean nothing in the face of Franklin who severed his fingers to get the amount of aura he has, that's a horrifying sacrifice if you ask me. I really want to see Franklin, Phinx and Machi in a battle more then any other Spider at this point (save for maybe more Chrollo goodness)

kkck
June 24, 2012, 04:35 PM
But those strings are materialized. It has no sense if not what She did with Hisoka. And most techniques have a bit of everything, so it's not that strange to consider it.

And when I say use those limitations as strengths...See Gon. He used his limitation of the predictive pose as a way to fool the enemy. See Kurapika, who picked the right chains for the right enemies but He did not left himself defenseless against other enemies while gaining immense power against Ryodan. See Kaito, which limitation was a random pick of weapons, but every of them were hell useful. And allowed him to get back from death.

Limitations are only good when the price is worthy for. As far as I know, Gotoh's coins did not granted him any useful "price" if not He would have used it. Not a special power, not a special combinations. He just used them as bullets that spin. That can easily be countered.

And about Franklin...I'm sure his fighting style doesn't involve such a predictive way. He seems wise enough. And his bullets can go trough even Nen based objects. Which BTW, Gotoh's coins couldn't.

Well, the manga never actually elaborated on the exact details of gotoh's hatsu. And who are we to say the price was not worth it? We don't even know to what extent the limitations powered it up. And lets be fair, he fought motherfucking hisoka. Hisoka is one of the strongest nen users in the series to begin with. Who has he ever fought that even gave him trouble? He made short work of the guy at the tower, he wants nothing more than to fight chrollo, he parades around zodiacs assesing their strength is inferior to his own and he plays around with illumi, another beast. So what if his coins could not get past bungee gum? Given what we saw the logical assumption would be that they couldn't get past because hisoka is insanely strong. And the spin trick was quite nifty, how is that not taking advantage of a problem? And ultimately, gotoh lost not because his nen was useless or because he did not use it as he should but because hisoka is who he is. Besides, not all limitations should be used as strengths. They wouldn't be limitations otherwise, sometimes limitations are just limitations.

And why would the coins be easily countered? Where did that come from?

And how would frankin's style not be what we saw? His ability is merely a standard emission made stronger by him doing something weird to his fingers(which we only know because the manga specifically told us so).

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

Machi is a transmutter, the manga never hints at her ability requiring materialization. She merely shapes her nen as a string however nothing ever suggests at some point the wire turns into a physical object. Its a similar situation to gon's scissor, it is nen shaped like a blade not a materialized blade. Machi would only need emission for her wire to remain attached to hisoka's arm, she would not need to actually make it into a real object.

Uriel
June 24, 2012, 05:08 PM
TheAmericandream: We never discussed the primary or secondary type. it's obvious that She's Transformation and also was stated as that. We're talking about the sub-schools She uses. If the discussion seems otherwise, I suggest giving a second look to the posts.

kkck: Nope, She needs to materialize in order to function as it does. Because if it was based by emission, it would mean that when Hisoka is far away than Machi his arms comes off.
If it would be only Transmutation alone things would go as shown by Hisoka with his own Bungee Gum. It only partially works and requires constant emission of it and concentration all the time to keep it activated. Because the ability of Hisoka to Materialize is focused on his Texture Surprise, He's not able to materialize his bungee gum. Also it's given that his Bungee Gum doesn't heal, it's just that gum between his arms and his body.
Machi in order to move freely needs to materialize the strings after applying them or it would take an enormous amount of Nen keeping it all the time or else those arms would fall off. Since that did not happened, She used Materialization INSTEAD of Emission...Which is the closest school as well so it makes sense.

TheAmericandream
June 24, 2012, 05:12 PM
I wonder if Huncyclopedia at the end of each episode will explain Franklin's restrictions, I can see them doing one for each member of the Phantom Trope save for perhaps Phinks, Feitan and Bonolenov since we don't see their Hatsu for a while. What does everyone think of Phinks? Do you think he seems useful to the Spiders operations? I mean he is strong but his ability always seemed kinda stupid to me, like the least useful of the entire group. I mean I guess he's the second strongest member, so perhaps that alone got him into the group (he maybe killed a former member)

Uriel:
I understand the idea of abilities possessing dual typing.
The string does disappear after a while and is even weaker when far away, is that really impossible for emission. How would conjuring work? Would that be a condition she sets on the threads after they are a certain distance? Turn into conjured string? I guess I'm just not sure how getting it to do that would work. Emission just seems like a simpler explanation to me, she is very strong and from a distance its very weak comparably. How would she cause the "switch" from transmuted threads to conjured ones? Perhaps her main ability with Nen threads is transmutation (as seen in Yorknew, its always attached) and for the surgery ability its totally conjuration. That at least makes more sense to me.

kkck
June 25, 2012, 09:52 AM
TheAmericandream: We never discussed the primary or secondary type. it's obvious that She's Transformation and also was stated as that. We're talking about the sub-schools She uses. If the discussion seems otherwise, I suggest giving a second look to the posts.

kkck: Nope, She needs to materialize in order to function as it does. Because if it was based by emission, it would mean that when Hisoka is far away than Machi his arms comes off.
If it would be only Transmutation alone things would go as shown by Hisoka with his own Bungee Gum. It only partially works and requires constant emission of it and concentration all the time to keep it activated. Because the ability of Hisoka to Materialize is focused on his Texture Surprise, He's not able to materialize his bungee gum. Also it's given that his Bungee Gum doesn't heal, it's just that gum between his arms and his body.
Machi in order to move freely needs to materialize the strings after applying them or it would take an enormous amount of Nen keeping it all the time or else those arms would fall off. Since that did not happened, She used Materialization INSTEAD of Emission...Which is the closest school as well so it makes sense.

Being far from emission does not mean outright disappears when away from the user. It can happen but it is still perfectly viable for nen to merely weaken rather than disappearing. Also, what do you mean by constant emission? As far as we know, emission is the ability to have nen maintain its power once it becomes separate from the body. What would she be constantly doing? We already know that separating from her thread causes it to weaken but thats it. Its not like she needs the threads to be able to hold tons when healing. Hisoka does use materialization for his deceiptful texture, it is the only way he would actually fool anyone. He does not need his bungee gum to materialize, not sure where you are going with this. The manga did state bungee gum loses some power when it loses contact with hisoka's body though.

---------- Post added at 09:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------


I wonder if Huncyclopedia at the end of each episode will explain Franklin's restrictions, I can see them doing one for each member of the Phantom Trope save for perhaps Phinks, Feitan and Bonolenov since we don't see their Hatsu for a while. What does everyone think of Phinks? Do you think he seems useful to the Spiders operations? I mean he is strong but his ability always seemed kinda stupid to me, like the least useful of the entire group. I mean I guess he's the second strongest member, so perhaps that alone got him into the group (he maybe killed a former member)


I don't think there will be restrictions per say for franklins ability. How would that work with such a simple and straightforward ability? He simply emits nen pretty fast. There was actually a page in the manga which explains his ability and it did not show any restrictions at all, it just saw making his fingers like they were made his nen stronger. Phinks is a simple enhancement user, he merely deviates a little from what uvo and gon. Perhaps his version could actually be stronger than uvo's if fully powered up technique considering its power indeed has a restriction and spinning your arms enough times can potentially be a problem. Still, franklin and phinx end up having simple techniques which by ryodan standards have already said to be easily replaceable (which implies a lot of people have similar techniques).

TheAmericandream
June 25, 2012, 04:11 PM
I don't know if Franklin was stated as being easily replaceable, but Shizuku, Pakunoda and Kortopi are the rarest amongst the Spiders. I worded my statement about Franklin wrong, I was referring to what he did to his fingers when I said restriction. It's not necessarily a restriction, but its something he did that shows his dedication and makes his ability very strong. As far as Phinks is concerned his hatsu involves winding his fist up, Uvo has no such restriction to getting a huge powerful attack, he just punches. Obviously Phinks can probably make the strongest attack by winding his fist many many times, but what opponent would let him do that? I guess I just think his ability is generally pretty silly.

kkck
June 25, 2012, 04:48 PM
From what I recall it was shalnark's, phink's and uvo's abilities which were said to be easily replaceable in the ryodan. Can't remember the chapter though, those york shin chapters all have basically the same title lol.

TheAmericandream
June 25, 2012, 05:16 PM
I think you're referring to this page: http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/HunterXHunter104/153242-7.html


Shalnark only refers to the abilities of himself and Nobunaga vs Shizuku and Pakunoda. Though all Enhancers are replaceable since their abilities are simple, though I personally argue an Enhancer of Uvogin's level isn't easy to replace, but his ability yes is not rare.

kkck
June 26, 2012, 09:42 AM
Shalnark is not even an enhancer for that matter, he is a manipulator and a pretty good one at that (all he has to do is put that antenna on his enemy and that's it). If we consider shalnark's and nobunaga's abilities to not be rare and overall be easily replaceable then it is also not too much to extent such a thing to phinx, uvo and even franklin considering their abilities although developed are basically standard enhancement or emission.

Demonspeed
June 27, 2012, 01:53 PM
Am i the one who thinks that a good manipulator(Zodiac level) could beat Meruem?

TheAmericandream
June 27, 2012, 02:40 PM
Um no you are probably right. Manipulator was the type that Uvogin feared, and while Meryem is stronger and smarter, he mostly relies on physical strength to win his battles from what we saw. The right manipulation Hatsu could probably bring him down. I wonder if Illumi would be capable of doing it with assistance.

Uriel
June 27, 2012, 10:10 PM
I don't think a good manipulation user, but someone else aside Netero. I took very seriously what He said about not being in the top 5 anymore. And the comment about some people being above his level (I think, when Moreau was talking with him) was also very illuminating.
Meryem still would win in that situation, anyway. It's not a controlled ambient, He's so fucking smart that He could deduce things quite easily and it's not like He's slow or anything. His overconfidence, though, maybe a way to defeat him with a convenient ability. Not enhancers, though.

kkck
June 27, 2012, 11:47 PM
Um no you are probably right. Manipulator was the type that Uvogin feared, and while Meryem is stronger and smarter, he mostly relies on physical strength to win his battles from what we saw. The right manipulation Hatsu could probably bring him down. I wonder if Illumi would be capable of doing it with assistance.

Well, even the most ideal manipulation hatsu would have a set of conditions to fulfill before it can actually do anything. In this regard, while a manipulation hatsu would certainly work on mereum, the risk of the technique remains proportional to the benefit. Controlling mereum gives you control over the most powerful being on the planet without a doubt however before that you have to make the most powerful guy on the planet complete the conditions for the control. In this regard, while manipulation would indeed win you the battle, the odds of someone actually pulling this off are best best overwhelmingly close to 0 in any of mereum's forms. More so, manipulation users overall do not have a nen type suited for direct combat, they would basically be defenseless until they pull of the technique. I mean, as far as nen types go the only things close to manipulation are specialization which is not really a nen type or acquirable and emission which could be useful as a secondary nen. However, that is only 1 secondary nen type, not two as most nen types would have. I don't think even illumi with assistance could pull this off.

Demonspeed
June 28, 2012, 03:20 PM
I just realized that Ikarugo could possess Meruem body.

TheAmericandream
June 28, 2012, 05:09 PM
I mean obviously he wouldn't be able to pierce his skin would he? He is a sniper so maybe, but I'm assuming if Uvo can deal with a sniper with relative ease, so can Meryem. What if Illumi or Shalnark teamed up with someone similar to Meloreon or Chrollo doing his teleportation ability, do you think they could pierce Meryem somewhere with a needle and possess him? I guess that's the question with that style of manipulation, whether or not Meryem unguarded could be pierced with a nen needle or something. Obviously no one is as fast as meryem so something like teleportation or invisibility would be necessary to do it. Also what about the Ortho Siblings darts (http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Ortho_Siblings)? Could that attack Meryem, what type of ability do you guys think it is? Manipulation/Conjuring? maybe Specialization I guess. I was never too clear on it. There's several ants who's abilities remain a mystery to me.

kkck
June 28, 2012, 09:14 PM
Well, the darts could certainly get to mereum IMO however actually hurting him is an entirely different thing. I mean, the guy has some pretty sick nen and has yupi's ability along with a probably insect like armor or something. I don't think the darts would actually harm him. As for what type of nen it is, IMO it is a bit complicated. The issue at hand is that it is a combination nen between two people. If I were to guess I would think it kinda works this way:

1.- Sister: She uses conjuration.
http://www.mangareader.net/207-14248-14/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-239.html
And then she adds a condition, when the badge is on the brother he can use his ability.
2.- Brother: Emission
http://www.mangareader.net/207-14248-6/hunter-x-hunter/chapter-239.html
Killia mentions it is a fish made from nen which pretty much rules out conjuration. Now, for the nen to appear elsewhere it would actually require emission and/or manipulation. Manipulation of the object to make it have an effect and emission to attack at long distance. I guess it could be primarily manipulation but emission makes more sense to me as that would seem to be the primary means of causing damage. Perhaps that would not matter as the risk of the game is pretty high.

TheAmericandream
June 29, 2012, 01:49 AM
Well sure ants are stronger then humans, but we don't know much about their skin compared to squad leaders when Nen isn't involved. I'd assume above average nen if attacking the right spot could at least slightly pierce Meryem's skin unguarded by nen. :P Hard to say really.

XXGenesis
November 15, 2012, 01:18 AM
Well sure ants are stronger then humans, but we don't know much about their skin compared to squad leaders when Nen isn't involved. I'd assume above average nen if attacking the right spot could at least slightly pierce Meryem's skin unguarded by nen. :P Hard to say really.

Kite lost to Pito before she knew Nen. So they are that strong before using Nen.

But Umm Why is the President labeled an Enhancer with the Hatsu ability Imo that is Emission and manipulation..Where is this officially stated?? Some may think Conjurer for his ability but his Statue holds no hidden ability which is why i stray away from it cause Netero was crazy he would you know make some dumb item up and put a whole bunch of crazy rules on it....Also my biggest alarm is that he has to use manipulation which is far ass hell from his category and conjure if it is that which i don't believe..So Why is he labeled an Enhancer using categories he can't achieve much power in?

Uriel
November 15, 2012, 11:20 AM
Kite lost to Pito before she knew Nen. So they are that strong before using Nen.

But Umm Why is the President labeled an Enhancer with the Hatsu ability Imo that is Emission and manipulation..Where is this officially stated?? Some may think Conjurer for his ability but his Statue holds no hidden ability which is why i stray away from it cause Netero was crazy he would you know make some dumb item up and put a whole bunch of crazy rules on it....Also my biggest alarm is that he has to use manipulation which is far ass hell from his category and conjure if it is that which i don't believe..So Why is he labeled an Enhancer using categories he can't achieve much power in?
She did knew Nen. Remember that the first one to be killed was Pokkle and they learned from him. Pitou, to experience her new power, went to fight against Kite.

XXGenesis
November 15, 2012, 02:04 PM
She did knew Nen. Remember that the first one to be killed was Pokkle and they learned from him. Pitou, to experience her new power, went to fight against Kite.

Uhh Wait, your right she had just learned Nen. She wasn't skilled and had a low difficulty with Kite seeing her clothes were all frayed and she a bit bruised....Gon, Killua fought against ants though who did't know Nen. insects skeleton are on the outside of their body not like us who are flesh and rather easy to break. So that's one of the big difference's in durability with Ants vs Humans.

But What about Netero's Hatsu how can he be n Enhancer using a conjuring ability that's dumb...Well dumb for somebody like Netero to be using hatsu that limits him so much.

Phantron
November 15, 2012, 03:45 PM
Netero uses Emission, not Materialization, which is only one school away. The most obvious explanation would be that Reinforcement abilities decline in both quantity (amount of aura) and quality (you're physically weaker) as you age while aura-based abilities only decline as a function of quantity.

XXGenesis
November 15, 2012, 07:25 PM
Netero uses Emission, not Materialization, which is only one school away. The most obvious explanation would be that Reinforcement abilities decline in both quantity (amount of aura) and quality (you're physically weaker) as you age while aura-based abilities only decline as a function of quantity.

Ok, thanks cause I was thinking the same. His technique had to be Emission. HXHpedia and Ppl just assume it's an conjure ability. I can accept his Enhancer placement now.

Phantron
November 15, 2012, 08:07 PM
Ok, thanks cause I was thinking the same. His technique had to be Emission. HXHpedia and Ppl just assume it's an conjure ability. I can accept his Enhancer placement now.

Well technically it never says what school he uses, but it seems like in HXH if you create a humanoid object that does relatively simple things it's an Emission tech, as opposed to Materialization tech. For all its power, Netero's statue doesn't do anything complicated beyond bashing things in a really fast speed. It's arguably less complicated than what Razor's clones do, which are definitely Emission based.