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View Full Version : Discussion Why couldn't Yamamoto kill the Enemy Leader 1,000 years ago?



Espiro
April 23, 2012, 09:08 AM
Why did captain Yamamoto fail to kill that Quincy 1000 years ago and how did that Quincy survive for such a long time?

Darjaille
April 23, 2012, 09:42 AM
First of all, welcome to MH, Espiro~ :x3

We can't say anything certainly, but to me, it sounded like Yamamoto couldn't bring himself to kill him. Thus I could see a former Teacher/Student relationship, or family relationship, or just friendship -> the VR King then betrayed shinigami/Yama, but Yamamoto failed to stop him.
Something like 3rd Hokage/Orochimaru, possibly.

The other question, we don't know yet, or he's partly shinigami.

REN KOUEN
April 24, 2012, 08:48 AM
he may just be a badass....

either way i think we will learn much more about the encounter 1000 years ago in the next few chapters

mattiaildivino
April 24, 2012, 10:03 AM
Why did captain Yamamoto failed to kill that Quincy 1000 years ago and how did that quincy survived for such a long tiime.

Welcome here! I think he didn't want to kill him because they were friends. that's the best thing that comes to my mind :mono

kkck
April 24, 2012, 08:25 PM
I get the mild impression there might be some drama involved here. Perhaps he couldn't get himself to do it? I guess it is possible the guy was that strong (if anything, he should be that strong) however considering the lengths yama is willing to go to to get the job done I find it hard to believe he would fail to take him with him if necessary.

kidopitz27
April 24, 2012, 09:26 PM
maybe its more like Isshin and Ryuken relationship they are good friends(because they are both doctors) and also rivals(because of the hospital and clinic) :)

Cyber34
April 24, 2012, 11:00 PM
I doubt his failure had anything to do with sympathy, Yamamotto doesn't seem like the type to put those feelings ahead of duty especially since he's willing to authorize the murder of 28,000 defenseless human souls. Buckbeard must have been able to hold his own and got away, waiting for the perfect time to strike back.

Miyagi
April 25, 2012, 04:08 AM
I don't think there would be any reason for Yamamoto to feel remorse if he did his best but still failed to kill him. It seems more like a wrong decision from his part, he probably had the opportunity to kill him but for some reason let him run away.

mattiaildivino
April 25, 2012, 05:26 AM
or maybe they fought to rule over Soul SOciety,and yama won but not with a great difference of power,so he "failed" in killing that man because he wasn't strong enough to end the job.

shinsengumi
April 25, 2012, 06:58 AM
i doubt he would fail killing someone because of personal feelings , he didnt hesitate to attack ukitake and shunsui in the rescue arc when he thought they betrayed him

or maybe he didnt hesitate because he didnt want to make the same mistake he did in the past ??

mattiaildivino
April 25, 2012, 07:41 AM
i doubt he would fail killing someone because of personal feelings , he didnt hesitate to attack ukitake and shunsui in the rescue arc when he thought they betrayed him

or maybe he didnt hesitate because he didnt want to make the same mistake he did in the past ??

yeah,because he became wiser after 1000 years,therefore he started thinking that he failed not killing him 1000 years ago. who knows,people change during millenia.

Darjaille
April 25, 2012, 07:52 AM
i doubt he would fail killing someone because of personal feelings , he didnt hesitate to attack ukitake and shunsui in the rescue arc when he thought they betrayed him

or maybe he didnt hesitate because he didnt want to make the same mistake he did in the past ??

Yeah, but we could assume he was "young" 1 000 years ago, still valuing emotions. Maybe the reason why he had become so cold (prior to Ichi, seems like he's changing again) is because he failed before, only because of emotions..

metalia
April 25, 2012, 09:59 AM
Maybe he spared his life, maybe the quincy scaped, maybe the quincy was too strong to kill and yamamoto retreated.

Who knows :)

thornofcarrion
April 25, 2012, 01:05 PM
Mayuri sounded like he was blaming Yama not killing him, when he has the capacity to do it. There could be many reasons, Having a connection or bond between the two is one of the most obvious right now.

mattiaildivino
April 25, 2012, 01:44 PM
Mayuri sounded like he was blaming Yama not killing him, when he has the capacity to do it. There could be many reasons, Having a connection or bond between the two is one of the most obvious right now.

right.I doubt mayuri would blame on yamamoto if he had been just unable to kill him. it can't be an issue of strength,but of bonds. otherwise yamamoto would kill him quickly :p .

btw,LOL, you edited the post of your comaptriot to correct grammar mistakes :XD

:) I am quite specific about OPs, being a compatriot wasn't gonna warrant him any different treatment :hip

metalia
April 25, 2012, 01:59 PM
right.I doubt mayuri would blame on yamamoto if he had been just unable to kill him. it can't be an issue of strength,but of bonds. otherwise yamamoto would kill him quickly :p .

btw,LOL, you edited the post of your comaptriot to correct grammar mistakes :XD

Maybe they had a love relationship... He wouldn't be the first superpowerful old man to be interested in guys. You know who I'm talking about, right? :3c

mattiaildivino
April 25, 2012, 03:19 PM
Maybe they had a love relationship... He wouldn't be the first superpowerful old man to be interested in guys. You know who I'm talking about, right? :3c

no,actually I don't...

-Ken-
April 25, 2012, 07:38 PM
There could be many reasons. Maybe they are father and son?

Xguard
April 25, 2012, 11:35 PM
I kinda sure that he is Yamamoto's son.
And I predicted that Yamamoto has to fight with him and can win the match but he can not kill his son(again) and cause Yamamoto was attacked by him.
So Ichigo has to fight with him instead.

PS. The charactor of Yamamoto was made for showing the enemies' strength, not to win the enemies.
It's recall me to Netero in HxH. ^^

thornofcarrion
April 25, 2012, 11:45 PM
What are your thought on Yama's pride stopping him from killing the leader? I mean, seeing the Leader was not as powerful or rather worthy, Yama found no motivation to kill him.

mattiaildivino
April 27, 2012, 07:55 AM
What are your thought on Yama's pride stopping him from killing the leader? I mean, seeing the Leader was not as powerful or rather worthy, Yama found no motivation to kill him.

it may explain why he didn't kill harribel's beasts either. but it would mean that buckbeard was far weaker than him,which I hope is no true entirely,since I hope he is almost at his level,if not even higher now that he's got just an arm.

devstauk
April 27, 2012, 11:20 AM
or maybe they fought to rule over Soul SOciety,and yama won but not with a great difference of power,so he "failed" in killing that man because he wasn't strong enough to end the job.

You took the words right outta my mouth more or less, I think they trained together way back when if it's since childhood or they are blood related as the arc title would suggest then this could fall heavily who's aged better and if buckbeard wins the next battle soul society by law have to elect the victor the seat of CC and Yama did not look a happy bunny about that situation coming to pass

thornofcarrion
April 27, 2012, 11:39 AM
it may explain why he didn't kill harribel's beasts either. but it would mean that buckbeard was far weaker than him,which I hope is no true entirely,since I hope he is almost at his level,if not even higher now that he's got just an arm.

He could have been weaker in comparison back then. It does not mean, the power gap remained the same. Having acquired new powers, it may have tipped the scale in favor of him. Credit to Kubo, if the leader is stronger than Yama, we can still argue on how strong current Yama is with only one arm.

mattiaildivino
April 27, 2012, 02:50 PM
He could have been weaker in comparison back then. It does not mean, the power gap remained the same. Having acquired new powers, it may have tipped the scale in favor of him. Credit to Kubo, if the leader is stronger than Yama, we can still argue on how strong current Yama is with only one arm.

maybe he will make up his mind and ask for orihime's help tor e-gain that arm ahah. yet,we don't know yet why her powers didn't work on ichigo when ulquiorra killed him,though.

thornofcarrion
April 28, 2012, 02:20 AM
Orihime powers have always been used inconsistently. If she can deny an event, like giving GJ his arm back, why its not been done for Yama. Its a discussion for a different thread though. So far, a connection with the Leader is the most plausible theory. I cannot help but thing, Isshin will have involvement in the past events.

mattiaildivino
April 29, 2012, 06:06 AM
Orihime powers have always been used inconsistently. If she can deny an event, like giving GJ his arm back, why its not been done for Yama. Its a discussion for a different thread though. So far, a connection with the Leader is the most plausible theory. I cannot help but thing, Isshin will have involvement in the past events.

you are right for what concerns the differences of orihime's powers. yet,I guess the only reason why she didn't heal the CC is due to his proud. I doubt he asked her to heal the arm :-_-

thornofcarrion
April 29, 2012, 11:28 PM
Indeed. He lost his arm in a battle, there is no shame. Is anyone else thinks Yama may actually die this time? We already saw a good guy died.

devstauk
April 30, 2012, 11:05 AM
Indeed. He lost his arm in a battle, there is no shame. Is anyone else thinks Yama may actually die this time? We already saw a good guy died.

I think so, and i also think he knows already who will succeed him

[OffTopic] this is going a little of topic but its for a good reason, okay i have a question about the way Zaraki obtained captain status, does that only work for the seat of 11th squad captain or is it the same rule for all captains even CC?

[Ontopic] if my questions answer is actually for all seats then if buckbeard beats Yama won't buckbeard then rule SS.... this would then cause wide panic and also the royal guard to be callled would it not?

Miyagi
April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM
^^ Even if there's such a rule, I don't think it would apply to VR leader because he's an outsider. The theories about VR leader fighting Yamamoto for CC position 1000 years ago are interesting though. Perhaps he was one of Yamamoto's trusted men before they came into conflict about how SS should have been governed and he challenged Yamamoto to a fight and lost but Yamamoto couldn't kill him for old time's sake.

mattiaildivino
May 02, 2012, 05:05 AM
Indeed. He lost his arm in a battle, there is no shame. Is anyone else thinks Yama may actually die this time? We already saw a good guy died.

to have a change of story,kubo should kill yamamoto this time. so the story will have a new generation,otherwise what's the meaning of this story if nothing happens in the end?

devstauk
May 05, 2012, 03:00 PM
Personally i think they could be blood related, and for Yama to become CC he had to fight Buckbeard, which he did but wouldn't kill him, instead he banished him from SS

mattiaildivino
May 06, 2012, 07:05 AM
I still read it as if CC fought him but,despite winning,hesitated and BB escaped. a kind of what happened between Orochimaru and the 3rd hokage in naruto.

Miyagi
May 29, 2012, 12:40 PM
VR leader is leading the invasion, so there's a pretty good chance that he'll meet Yamamoto which can shed some light on events that happened 1000 years ago. Being able to capture shinigami bankais encouraged quincies to make their move, perhaps Yamamoto defeated VR leader with his bankai and now he's back to take revenge on shinigami thinking they're not a significant threat anymore. When Ichigo went bankai, Quilge responded in a worried manner, it's as if there's something about bankai that bothers quincies besides the usual power increase.

devstauk
May 29, 2012, 01:18 PM
I think its the fact the swords are a separate soul or something

OtakuModeEngage
May 30, 2012, 03:34 PM
Yamamoto couldn't kill him because; he was his brother's uncle's girlfriend's daughter's best-friend's pool-boy's roommate

cracker
June 02, 2012, 11:51 AM
Flashbacks OP, flashbacks...all will be reveal or at least partly

SaitoSpike
June 02, 2012, 01:32 PM
great topic by the way! Espiro

i kind of feel like due to how stric Yama-ji is its gotta be something extremely dramatic for him not to finish someone considered an enemy especially in a 'war' it almost seems like he'd have to be related in some way to Yama-ji like some sort of son or grandson (i dunno how something like that would come about tho) or maybe a student

so thats a good question lol i guess maybe it may have something to do with why Yama is the way he is....i understand he has to be a stric leader because he's the head of a military organization but he does seem to have an almost bitterness about him, the kind that usually comes about from say an incredibly sad love story like Samurai X and what that made Kenshin into....so i wonder if its something along those lines.....itws jus that he's so old that i wonder how it could possibly tie into now....even 200 years ago doesnt seem like long enough

so once again GOOD question lol

i mean how personal could it get if this king is supposed to be a quincy? were he a shinigami i guess all of our guesses would make more sense....which i guess is why i'm still not convinced he IS a quincy

cracker
June 02, 2012, 02:01 PM
That's a good point Saito, a 1000 years is far too for a human. Him being a shinigami would make sense, there is nothing solid yet to say he's a Quincy. There was this bit on wikia though about him materializing steps and the throne he sat on, those aren't necessarily things shinigami have been known to do...

Yama is a very serious, head strong individual. A little softer since Ichigo, I can't imagine what could have happened that would have caused him to spare his enemy's life.

Asclepius
June 05, 2012, 02:11 PM
Wouldn't it be fitting and tragic if Buckbeard was Yamamoto's VC 1000 years ago?
That would so fit with him killing Sasakibe as his first move to get to Yamamoto.

devstauk
June 07, 2012, 12:42 PM
Wouldn't it be fitting and tragic if Buckbeard was Yamamoto's VC 1000 years ago?
That would so fit with him killing Sasakibe as his first move to get to Yamamoto.

It could make sense....

This also has me thinking that maybe, 1000 years ago Quincy and Shinigami lived together as one unit but BB didn't like the fact he was under Yama and rebelled

Rikkaidai94
July 02, 2012, 07:41 PM
He probably didn't kill them off because they were helping with the hollows and other problems that showed up. The reason is probably still unknown about why he did it unless they tell why he decided not to and whatever. I just think he decided not to because they didn't show any signs about being a threat at first

bleach fan 101
July 06, 2012, 02:06 AM
I've noticed something:
somewhere in the manga it says that Yama has been the strongest for 1000 years, and he couldn't kill BB 1000 years ago, what if BB was the former CC (or maybe the heir to the soul king) and Yama had overthrown him and thus becoming the strongest shinigami. It could explain the grudge.

Stzake
July 06, 2012, 05:28 AM
Yeah, maybe there was a dram but i think thats not the only thing.

What if there is a connection between BB and Isshin? What if BB stealed Isshin's FGT and whole bankai? We all know Isshin lose his powers and we all know Isshın knows about FGT. Everyone thinking like that "oh, Isshın used FGT and lose his shinigami powers." But knowing a tech doesnt mean he used it right?

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/484/15
In this page, guy's arm just disappear. Like FGT.

And yeah, maybe he lose a fight to Yamaji. And yamaji couldn't kill him couse of his feelings-father, friend etc.-.
It's explain why BB doesn't like fights :D
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/484/16

bleach fan 101
July 06, 2012, 06:28 AM
What if there is a connection between BB and Isshin? What if BB stealed Isshin's FGT and whole bankai? We all know Isshin lose his powers and we all know Isshın knows about FGT. Everyone thinking like that "oh, Isshın used FGT and lose his shinigami powers." But knowing a tech doesnt mean he used it right?

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/484/15
In this page, guy's arm just disappear. Like FGT.

What do you mean just like FGT?

Maybe Isshin physically stopped Yama from killing BB allowing BB to escape and getting Isshin banished?

devstauk
July 06, 2012, 10:47 AM
Yeah, maybe there was a dram but i think thats not the only thing.

What if there is a connection between BB and Isshin? What if BB stealed Isshin's FGT and whole bankai? We all know Isshin lose his powers and we all know Isshın knows about FGT. Everyone thinking like that "oh, Isshın used FGT and lose his shinigami powers." But knowing a tech doesnt mean he used it right?

http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/484/15
In this page, guy's arm just disappear. Like FGT.

And yeah, maybe he lose a fight to Yamaji. And yamaji couldn't kill him couse of his feelings-father, friend etc.-.
It's explain why BB doesn't like fights :D
http://www.manga-access.com/manga/B/Bleach/chapter/484/16


Actually Isshin says that his sword wouldn't give him the knowledge willingly, so that suggests he did use it or tried to gain the knowledge
http://www.mangareader.net/94-54486-15/bleach/chapter-409.html
bottom panel he says "Zangetsu is gunna be on a rampage"
http://www.mangareader.net/94-54486-16/bleach/chapter-409.html
then here he says "my Engetsu was the same"

Miyagi
July 07, 2012, 05:44 AM
When quincies first attacked SS to declare war, they addressed Yamamoto using honorifics. I don't think VR leader is former CC, I would expect someone to be very old to be CC 1000 years ago, it seems to me that VR leader respects Yamamoto which may indicate he was a subordinate of Yamamoto at one point. It would also explain why he failed to kill VR leader and why he was so harsh on Shunsui & Ukitake in SS arc.

Jorge D. Dragon
July 07, 2012, 12:44 PM
It's quite an interesting thought.:) Maybe he wasn't only one of his subordinates, but was also one of his first students along with Shunsui and Ukitake.:) Or maybe he was his student even before these two.
Still, the thing that is interesting isn't actually why he couldn't kill him, but why this guy actually attacked if he was a Shinigami?;)

Darjaille
July 07, 2012, 02:17 PM
It's quite an interesting thought.:) Maybe he wasn't only one of his subordinates, but was also one of his first students along with Shunsui and Ukitake.:) Or maybe he was his student even before these two.
Still, the thing that is interesting isn't actually why he couldn't kill him, but why this guy actually attacked if he was a Shinigami?;)

And of course, how was he a shinigami when he's a Quincy now / why he uses Quincy powers but not shinigami powers / why does he fight alongside a Quincy army and why is he the head of it?

Cyrs
July 15, 2012, 12:14 PM
I bet Yamamoto knew the VR leader ever since the guy was a kid.

EDIT

Also, maybe the leader dude is the Soul Prince or something - kinda like many of us were wondering about Aizen and Ichigo. Either way, I'm pretty sure Yamamoto has known this guy for quite some time, even before they fought.

Anduren
September 01, 2012, 12:11 AM
So I started watching the anime just for the heck of it and got an interesting idea about Buckbeard and his relationship with Yamamoto. Earlier in the series they were talking a good bit about the four noble families in Soul Society. The Kuchiki clan and the Shihoin clan was explained specifically and a third Shiba clan was mentioned in passing as one that fell out of nobility in shame (or something like that).

This still leaves out a fourth noble clan of Soul Society yet to be mentioned. It may be possible that both Ichigo's father, Yamamoto, and Buckbeard may have been a part of this clan giving them specialized spirit natures/abilities that are maybe stronger and have different properties than the usual Soul Society Shinigami. This would also mean they wouldn't necessarily have had to have been a part of the Gotei 13 at any time even though they were captain class+ shinigami. I guess I may be opening a new can of worms but I wonder if anyone else had thought about this before.

Duniak
September 02, 2012, 01:32 PM
This still leaves out a fourth noble clan of Soul Society yet to be mentioned. It may be possible that both Ichigo's father, Yamamoto, and Buckbeard may have been a part of this clan giving them specialized spirit natures/abilities that are maybe stronger and have different properties than the usual Soul Society Shinigami. This would also mean they wouldn't necessarily have had to have been a part of the Gotei 13 at any time even though they were captain class+ shinigami. I guess I may be opening a new can of worms but I wonder if anyone else had thought about this before.

Nah, BB and CC with Ichigo and Isshin in the same clan? Impossible. But for Ichigo and Isshin being part of some noble family with unique Zanpakoutos (EnGETSU, ZanGETSU), maybe.

The Newbie.
September 02, 2012, 06:20 PM
Yamamoto and Johann were both pioneers in the spirit world. At this time shinigami had just begun to exist, and there wasn't an order in death. On one side Yamamoto decided it would be best to accept all the souls into Soul Society, and cleanse the rest, including hollows, indiscriminately. Johann accepted this idea, but didn't like the part about cleansing hollows. Why would they save souls that kill others? So they both separated. Yamamoto created Seireitei and the Shinigami, Johann created the First Reich and the Magic Hunters.

For a long time they didn't have a real conflict with each other, but then, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked. Only the Av- killing hollows altered the balance of the worlds. And after many warnings about stop killing hollows, Yamamoto engaged in a serious conversation with Johann, which ended in a dispute. Maybe it was violent, and there was a fight. Maybe Johann simply vanished and Mayuri meant that Yamamoto should have killed him. For 1000 years, the Quincy continued until their final warning, and were all exterminated.

Judau Ashta
October 23, 2012, 04:41 PM
Taking into account JB and Yama's flashbacks, JB was extremely powerful back then. So strong that Yama was forced to sacrifice his troops to get a win. Eventually Yama unlocked Bankai. He slaughtered many quincy, but his powers started going out of control. He had a choice, fight Bach and risk burning down all of SS or let him go and gain control of his bankai. Obviously JB was a formidable opponent even back then, so he had no choice but to let him go.

kkck
October 23, 2012, 10:40 PM
Taking into account JB and Yama's flashbacks, JB was extremely powerful back then. So strong that Yama was forced to sacrifice his troops to get a win. Eventually Yama unlocked Bankai. He slaughtered many quincy, but his powers started going out of control. He had a choice, fight Bach and risk burning down all of SS or let him go and gain control of his bankai. Obviously JB was a formidable opponent even back then, so he had no choice but to let him go.

Well, we know that juhabach saw yamamoto's bankai however we were never actually told juhabach fought yamamoto in the past. If anything what appeared to be a one frame flashbach showed yamamoto's back... I think yamamoto used his bankai against someone else. I think yamamoto used his bankai against the previous vandereich leader and at the time juhabach was simply a high ranking soldier.

mrsticky005
October 26, 2012, 12:33 AM
Why did captain Yamamoto fail to kill that Quincy 1000 years ago and how did that Quincy survive for such a long time?

Simple.
Love.


By keeping a low profile.