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Page356
May 18, 2012, 11:37 AM
Okay we know Law has a plan to take down a Yonkou, but which one do you believe?

I believe it will be Shanks. Shanks is the only one of the four that I believe that can be tricked. Law may want to use what small history he has and the obvious history that Luffy has in order to get close and find an opening to exploit against Shanks. Also I think it would provide the neccessary plot device to make Luffy and Law enemies.

I don't think it would be Blackbeard because he's much too end game.

Kaido is an option but due to the limited info we have on him I would doubt him being a likely selection.

Big Mam is probably the second best option as Luffy already wants to take her down and Kidd is already wrecking her ships. It's not like Kidd, Law and Luffy haven't joined forces before eh?

Anyway post your ideas and shit

zelllogan
May 18, 2012, 12:14 PM
Anyone but blackbeard is possible.

Shanks: For the scenario, it would be much interesting to see an alliance than to see an angry luffy fighting law.
Big Mum: It would be too much of a coincidence & too easy if the enemy is already on the Luffy's target list. But it's still highly possible. Grand line started with a really big multi-arc story to confront a shishibukai. It would make sense for Oda to do the same with Big Mum.
Blackbeard: Too early for a confrontation with him.
Kaidou: He is an enigma.

So, by probablity order:
1) Big Mum
2) Kaidou
3) shanks
4) BB

beck26
May 18, 2012, 01:33 PM
i like two possibilities.

law proposing shanks so luffy smokes him right there.....or big mam so we can finally see her.

hyper_megaman
May 18, 2012, 03:12 PM
i reckon kaidou

big mam seems to be quite reasonably pleasant from her conversation with luffy (considering the circumstances and the rude stuff he said them in)

she doesn't seem to be unreasonable to the point of garnering law's hate

kaidou, on the other hand, we know is a person who would kick a man when he's down. his attempt at attacking whitebeard is obvious enough.

Law seems to be a reasonable person thus far, so I belive he wouldn't randomly hate people for no good reason. It's probably kaidou who would do something to irritate him that much

descending probability imho
1) kaidou
2) big mam
3) shanks
4) blackbeard (waaaay too early liike someone else above said)

---------- Post added at 08:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 PM ----------

why are the poll results hidden?

Impossibility
May 18, 2012, 07:45 PM
Shanks seems to be the least likely of the Yonkou to be targeted. Law exploiting Luffy to get to Shanks seems very unlikely to me.

I can actually see a scenario in which Blackbeard is the intended target. The alliance doesn't have to be a short-term arrangement. It's feasible that the alliance between the two could last an extended period of time, provided that the alliance itself is rather loose and allows for extensive freedom. A long term alliance would allow for BB to remain an endgame or near endgame challenger to Luffy.

Too little is known of Kaidou to be certain of his chances of being the target, Although, this alliance could provide an introduction to the last of the emperors.

Big Mam seems the most obvious of choices, but it could be for that very reason that she is not the target. I'd say there is about a fifty-percent chance that the target is her. The setup is already there for a conflict between Luffy & Big Mam, it would just be a matter of moving forward on it.

M3J
May 18, 2012, 07:55 PM
I think it will be Big Mam vs. Luffy and Law. Or L+L vs. Kaidou. Blackbeard doesn't seem likely, esp if he hasn't increased his crew by a lot. Shanks, I highly doubt, not at this point anyway as I don't see Luffy and Law becoming enemies this early. Unless Shanks is to be the Aizen of OP.

No idea how big Big Mam or Kaidou's crew is, though.

EddyBob15
May 18, 2012, 08:44 PM
Let's see. Luffy wants to save Fishman Island from Big Mam so I'm sure he'll do that by himself. He has a promise with Shanks, which means he's out. As for Blackbeard, well, it's pretty well stated that he could be one of Luffy's last enemies. By method of elimination, that leaves Kaido as the obvious. Besides, he's the last Yonko to be introduced.

hoeru
May 18, 2012, 08:59 PM
Kaidou has been shown at the end of Enies Lobby arc and named in Thriller Bark arc. So technically we know now as much as we know about Bigmam. Both are cruel Yonkou, have subordinates and territory to protect. With Bigmam being "hyped" in the Fishman Island arc as she's preparing some kind of feast, and Luffy having declared war on her, Oda sure seems to have favored her lately as the coming first grand enemy of the New World Saga.

But: Knowing that Kaidou is someone who does kill a pirate's comrades to lecture him on being utterly weak due to Moriah's tellings, and Oda still hasn't shown the whereabouts of Law's pirates, Law could target Kaidou.

A third option might be, that Law doesn't want to go up against a specific Yonkou at all - therefore he might be picking up Luffy's target Bigmam.

I don't think Law is that boldinsane to attack either Shanks or Blackbeard.

Page356
May 18, 2012, 09:33 PM
Didn't mean to hide the results...not sure how to change that

EddyBob15
May 18, 2012, 10:00 PM
Didn't mean to hide the results...not sure how to change that

Really? I thought you were doing it as a sort of way to see which of us were right about which Yonko. Anyway, why don't you talk to the moderators?

beck26
May 19, 2012, 03:58 AM
Kaidou has been shown at the end of Enies Lobby arc and named in Thriller Bark arc. So technically we know now as much as we know about Bigmam. Both are cruel Yonkou, have subordinates and territory to protect. With Bigmam being "hyped" in the Fishman Island arc as she's preparing some kind of feast, and Luffy having declared war on her, Oda sure seems to have favored her lately as the coming first grand enemy of the New World Saga.

But: Knowing that Kaidou is someone who does kill a pirate's comrades to lecture him on being utterly weak due to Moriah's tellings, and Oda still hasn't shown the whereabouts of Law's pirates, Law could target Kaidou.

A third option might be, that Law doesn't want to go up against a specific Yonkou at all - therefore he might be picking up Luffy's target Bigmam.

I don't think Law is that boldinsane to attack either Shanks or Blackbeard.

nice. now it makes sense why law said "weak shits dont pick their way of death".....maybe an experience from kaidou?

Doraku
May 19, 2012, 05:27 AM
Big Mom will be the most realistic Yonko which Law refers to. Blackbeard and Shanks are just too crazy for a plot twist, while Kaido's background is not clear yet. We already knew Linlin since Fisherman Island arc, Luffy already declared war on her, and If she is not defeated, Jinbe wouldn't join Straw Hat Pirates.

MOYcano 0.23
May 19, 2012, 09:45 AM
I'm think will be Big Mom... all the reasons that dismiss Shanks and Blackbeard sound pretty valid and one could remember that One Piece progress slowly, so jump from the start to Kaido's crew seems a little rushed to me.

Samui
May 19, 2012, 02:30 PM
Big Mam is the big enemy of this entire saga. Use common sense, people. Why would Oda jump from Yonkou to Yonkou? Luffy wouldn't be able to beat a Yonkou in just two or three arcs, the battle is about to happen in three days. An alliance between Luffy and Law (and Kid who will join in, he was mentioned for a reason) is what needed to take Big Mam down, together with the plan Law has in mind and the weapon they're going to use.

rosco12
May 19, 2012, 02:50 PM
I wonder if I'm the odd one out in believing that Law doesn't have a preference on which Yonkou to take down. I believe Luffy will join against Big Mam because Luffy wants to, not because Law cares which one fall, so longs as it creates an opening for a new Yonkou.

MaiSiaoSiao
May 20, 2012, 04:54 AM
Im guessing Big Mam.Cause if Luffy is already planning to take down Big Mam.And IF Law were to target another Yonkou.Then we would see 2 Yonkous within a very short period.Which would be a kill sport for me...I would rather see the Yonkou one by one like how Oda had been doing for the past 10years.Showing us the shadows of the Yonkous,throwing pieces of info of the Yonkous everywhere,leaving us guessing here and there.Instead of just revealing 2 Yonkous almost together.

poncho1
May 20, 2012, 05:16 AM
I would say Big Mum. Luffy already hold a grudge against Mum. Kaidou is also a possibility but we just don't know enoguh about him and I think it's too early for him to appear and it would be really awkward if Luffy have 2 Yonkou as enemies.
Shanks is quite unlikely I don't think that Luffy would fight against him and for Blackbeard ... well I have a feeling that it's not him. It's also too soon to fight against him.

UnknownMugiwara
May 20, 2012, 10:21 AM
I like the idea of letting Luffy choose, it's seems more like Law just to need a Yonkou to be taken down and it won't seem like a planned if it's Big mam as if Law had already picked her out. (Jinbei, Law amd the SH's vs BM crew seems legit (; )
If it's Shanks or BB I think they are going to lose..

Doraku
May 20, 2012, 10:25 AM
I like the idea of letting Luffy choose, it's seems more like Law just to need a Yonkou to be taken down and it won't seem like a planned if it's Big mam as if Law had already picked her out. (Jinbei, Law amd the SH's vs BM crew seems legit (; )

Don't forget the fact that Kidd is also has a conflict with BM. It will be more epic. :hip
I'm guessing that Kaidou is stronger than BB or Shanks, so I don't think it is possible too.

mattiaildivino
May 20, 2012, 10:26 AM
Okay we know Law has a plan to take down a Yonkou, but which one do you believe?

I believe it will be Shanks. Shanks is the only one of the four that I believe that can be tricked. Law may want to use what small history he has and the obvious history that Luffy has in order to get close and find an opening to exploit against Shanks. Also I think it would provide the neccessary plot device to make Luffy and Law enemies.

I don't think it would be Blackbeard because he's much too end game.

Kaido is an option but due to the limited info we have on him I would doubt him being a likely selection.

Big Mam is probably the second best option as Luffy already wants to take her down and Kidd is already wrecking her ships. It's not like Kidd, Law and Luffy haven't joined forces before eh?

Anyway post your ideas and shit

I doubt law is so bastard,shanks is off limits to him as well. shanks is honest,proud and a good pirate,that's why law mustn't attack him. BB may be sensed as too dangerous,although I think he is weaker than the other 3 emperors. kaido and big mam...it would be a goot way to introduce them,especially kaido,imo.

EddyBob15
May 20, 2012, 05:56 PM
I doubt law is so bastard,shanks is off limits to him as well. shanks is honest,proud and a good pirate,that's why law mustn't attack him. BB may be sensed as too dangerous,although I think he is weaker than the other 3 emperors. kaido and big mam...it would be a goot way to introduce them,especially kaido,imo.
Blackbeard, the weakest of the Yonko? Uh, are you talking about the guy who Shanks was worried about (and also gave him his scars), who defeated Ace, killed Whitebeard, and posses two of the most powerful DF abilities in the world and who knows how many more?

Kaiten
May 20, 2012, 09:10 PM
How is this even a debate :XD

The last arc ended with Luffy declaring war on Big Mam, she accepting his challenge, a bomb inadvertently being sent to her, and Jinbe acknowledging that he can not join the Strawhat's until his obligation to her has ended. Now Law, whom Luffy and Jinbe owe their lives to, says he has a plan to defeat a Yonkou. Why, after all that, would Luffy and Law suddenly fight Kaido, a character that has not yet been introduced. How would that make any sense? Oda is a better writer than that, thankfully. He would not have gone to so much trouble to establish Mam as an imminent adversary of Luffy's, only for him to at random fight another Yonkou.

Anyone who even suggests Shanks should be kicked out of the fandom. What motivation would Law even have to take down a benevolent presence like Shanks when the clearly more antagonistic Big Mam is around? Power levels don't mean anything, defeating Shanks would be unsound strategy. Never defeat a potential ally rather than a clear threat.

Kaido does not factor in because we know virtually nothing about him. He may not even be a bad guy.

---------- Post added at 10:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------


I doubt law is so bastard,shanks is off limits to him as well. shanks is honest,proud and a good pirate,that's why law mustn't attack him. BB may be sensed as too dangerous,although I think he is weaker than the other 3 emperors. kaido and big mam...it would be a goot way to introduce them,especially kaido,imo.

How exactly do you figure Blackbeard to be the weakest Yonkou? He is the only character with two devil fruit powers, both among the strongest known so far. Had Shanks not intervened, Blackbeard would have used his then newly acquired gura gura no mi power to sink Marineford. He was well on his way when Shank's arrived. Everything we know about him implies he is one of the strongest characters in the manga. Shanks, Sengoku, and Rayleigh may be the only established characters stronger than Blackbeard.

M3J
May 20, 2012, 11:51 PM
Has anyone come up with the theory of Big Mom possibly beating and taking Law's crew in a fight? If that's so, that explains why Law's crew hasn't been seen yet and why Law wants to go after a Yonkou, most likely Big Mom.

leiatte
May 21, 2012, 01:54 AM
I think that Law is going to suggest, Shanks (and too people saying that shanks is too good of a guy, for Law to want to take down, Law was said to be a cruel person, and he states he is a pirate, so he does whatever is in the best interests for him, so don't think he is above taking Shanks/Luffy down.)

matzik1212
May 21, 2012, 06:13 AM
Big Mom will be the Yonkou Law will suggest IMO . She was already presented by Oda and she seems to be Kidd's target as well . Maybe in the end we'll see an alliance of Luffy-Law-Kid like back in SA just like someone already suggested.

I don't see Shanks being Law's target at all . Law already knows that Luffy and Shanks are in good terms so there's no way he's gonna propose an alliance to take him down . Kaidou is still an unknown character but i have a feeling we'll meet him later on , not now . :^_^

mattiaildivino
May 21, 2012, 07:18 AM
Blackbeard, the weakest of the Yonko? Uh, are you talking about the guy who Shanks was worried about (and also gave him his scars), who defeated Ace, killed Whitebeard, and posses two of the most powerful DF abilities and the world and who knows how many more?

yes,I'm talking about that jerk.

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------


How exactly do you figure Blackbeard to be the weakest Yonkou? He is the only character with two devil fruit powers, both among the strongest known so far. Had Shanks not intervened, Blackbeard would have used his then newly acquired gura gura no mi power to sink Marineford. He was well on his way when Shank's arrived. Everything we know about him implies he is one of the strongest characters in the manga. Shanks, Sengoku, and Rayleigh may be the only established characters stronger than Blackbeard.

to be honest,BB wanted to sink marineford,which is far away from being about to sink it. WB and luffy wanted to save ace too,but they failed. BB would have been stopped by sengoku and garp(remember that sengoku alone was beating all BB's crew with that shockwaves).
and let me teach you an interesting trivial: as already pointed out,it can't be that shanks is much stronger than the other emperors,otherwise it would be Sankou rather than yonkou. the only ones who could keep up with WB were those 3,and according to the Gorosei,those 3 are the only pirates(and maybe marco too) who can defeat BB. rayleigh has been surpassed now,and sengoku may be weaker than Kong.

Kaiten
May 21, 2012, 01:40 PM
I think that Law is going to suggest, Shanks (and too people saying that shanks is too good of a guy, for Law to want to take down, Law was said to be a cruel person, and he states he is a pirate, so he does whatever is in the best interests for him, so don't think he is above taking Shanks/Luffy down.)

Do you actually read One Piece? I assume not, otherwise you would not have made that comment. Law's actions during the war clearly illustrate that he is a friend and ally of Luffy. Cruel characters do not put themselves in danger to save someone whom they are under no obligation to help. One Piece does not work that way. You are welcome to depict Law however you want when you write fan fiction. In the actual manga Oda has firmly established Law's character as a good guy, it is not a subject left open to interpretation. Here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c578/16.html), here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c578/17.html), here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c581/13.html), and here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c581/14.html). This are not the words and actions of a One Piece antagonist, never has been, never will be. So can everyone STFU about Law being cruel and evil. He's not, get over it. This arc is clearly setting the Heart Pirates up as the Strawhats first allied fleet.


yes,I'm talking about that jerk.

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------



to be honest,BB wanted to sink marineford,which is far away from being about to sink it. WB and luffy wanted to save ace too,but they failed. BB would have been stopped by sengoku and garp(remember that sengoku alone was beating all BB's crew with that shockwaves).
and let me teach you an interesting trivial: as already pointed out,it can't be that shanks is much stronger than the other emperors,otherwise it would be Sankou rather than yonkou. the only ones who could keep up with WB were those 3,and according to the Gorosei,those 3 are the only pirates(and maybe marco too) who can defeat BB. rayleigh has been surpassed now,and sengoku may be weaker than Kong.

In the future please check old chapters before posting, having to explain the story to you gets tiresome. And never talk down to me again, I know how the yonkou work. If you do it again it will piss me off.

Individual Yonkou can be stronger than the other. Before the war Whitebeard was called the strongest man alive and pirate closest to One Piece. Yet he was still only one of four Yonkou because individual power is only a part of what makes an Emperor. Emperor's are proclaimed based on individual power, the strength of their crew, allied crews, and allied islands. The key is what Law said last week, all other pirates must either become allies or continuously challenge a Yonkou. The Yonkou themselves are lucked in a stalemate, even if one could defeat the other in an individual fight, the resultant battle between crews would leave the winner to weakened to defend their title as Yonkou. The Balance of Power worked in the same manner, with the individual Yonkou checked by the power of the institutions of the Marine and Shichibukai. You are very, very wrong: there are differences between the individual power of each Yonkou. But individual power is only one factor, that is why the Yonkou balance each other out.

Individually, Shanks is clearly a monster. His Haki is strong enough to knock out all of the Whitebeard Pirates (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v45/c434/5.html) except for the Commanders. When he and Whitebeard crossed blades they split the sky. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v45/c434/15.html) He easily blocked Akainu's lava with nothing more than a haki infused sword (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c579/13.html).

The Sengoku fight lasted a few panels, neither he nor Blackbead were shown to be winning, nor was there any hint of who would win. Make up whatever you would like, it was only shown briefly. By engaging him, Sengoku did stop Blackbeard from sinking the island. My point still remains valid: the motherfucker is strong enough to sink a fucking island. The capability to destroy a land mass must rate pretty high on the shounen power meter. Please do not insult my intelligence by saying something as stupid as Blackbeard is the weakest Yonkou. It's obviously not true.

What the fuck makes you think that Rayleigh has been "surpassed". Like Shanks, he stopped a Marine Admiral's logia ability with nothing but a haki infused sword. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v52/c512/7.html) He stopped a column of marines by asking nicely (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c602/4.html). That column included Sentomaru and the Pacifista, according to Sentomaru (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c603/4.html) himself. Maybe Rayleigh has declined from his days with Roger, he is still stronger than an admiral, and he alone is strong enough to oppose an entire squadron of marines along with Sentomaru and the Pacifista.

I forgot about Kong. Yes, he and the Gorosei are likely among the strongest characters. Talking about them is kind of worthless though, considering they have not actually done anything to talk about.

SlayerKisame
May 23, 2012, 01:16 AM
People seem to immediately dismiss Kaido simply because we don't know his background. The same can be said for Shanks and Blackbeard but that excuse isn't being used. We only know a bit of Big Mom's background from the Fishman arc, we don't exactly know everything about her. Actually, we know little about her crew and what she does.

Breaking it down -

1. Big Mam: Likely because Luffy recently accepted a war declaration.
2. Kaido: Possible since it seems too coincidental that Law would happen to have a thing against Big Mam, wouldn't make sense to have beef with Shanks, and Blackbeard seems out of reach in terms of power.
3. Shanks: Unlikely because Shanks is too much of a friendly guy who can justify pretty much all of his actions and Law is also a pretty nice guy.
4. Blackbeard: Unlikely because Blackbeard is foreshadowed as a) final villain and b) incredibly strong, though I wouldn't completely rule it out.

BlackHair
May 23, 2012, 04:57 AM
Big Mom - Clearly she is the most popular and obvious choice. Simply because she is foreshadowed to be the first Yonko to face the SHs. However Im not even slightly interested in her. She had one disappointing first introduction. But on the other hand, the first Yonko to face the SHs must be according to simple shounen logic, the weakest one. So deep down I want it to be her, since she is disappointing, hence I want her to be the weakest.

Kaido - Of all the emperors Im the most interesting in him. Because there are some events tied to hm, which needs to be more explained. Starting with Moria vs Kaido, Drake X reasons for targeting him and most importantly his reasons to intervene WB (prior to the Marineford battle). Consequently Im also interesting in his talk/skirmish with Shanks. After BM he is the best choice.

Shanks - Having Law choosing him might be interesting. Just to see Luffy's reaction. As for now, I don't think Law knows about their connection. Will he decline in anger or rather in cool? I believe the latter will be the case. Simply because Luffy always fights for the weak, Shanks isn't one of them. He doesn't need to protect someone of Shanks calibre. Then again he might get angry, because he is emotionally bonded to Shanks. Im interesting in how Luffy will react. But I don't think Law will chose him.

BB - Of all 4, I think he will be the unlikeliest choice. BB is forshadowed to be the last foe to face the SHs. As such I simply don't see Oda chosing him. However if Law proposes him, I see Luffy declining, just like he would in case of Shanks.

suraj5898
May 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
i think it may be Big Mom or Kaido
big mom - luffy already declare war against her.
Kaido - after time skip we see law alone so where is his crew maybe they dead and we know from Moria that kaido kill his crew so there is chance law's crew get same fate by same person.
i dont think luffy will ask help from anyone to defeat shanks because luffy made promise him that he will creat more stronger crew then his

BurnSchulz
May 23, 2012, 01:59 PM
Hidden Resulsts, very nasty :D

I personally wont believe that they would go afte Shanks, because that doesnt make any sense.

I voted for Big Mom because Ruffy already declared War on her.

GiantAlienHamster
May 23, 2012, 05:08 PM
Big Mom would probably be the most obvious answer.

Too obvious, if you ask me. Why would Oda make it a secret, if Trafalgar and Luffy were plotting to take her down, after Luffy has allready declared war on her?

Shanks? Total nonsense.

BB would come too early, I think he will be the last one whom Luffy will meet (at Raftel). But who knows... Trafalgar's plan might be far fetched.

So I'll go for Kaido. He seems to be evil, so I guess Luffy might take him down anyway sooner or later.

THM Nindo
May 23, 2012, 06:45 PM
I voted Shanks just because I trust that Oda will want to surprise everyone with that kind of twist.
I really don't see how Luffy would want to defeat Shanks with an alliance (I could see him wanting to defeat Shanks with his own team, but not in an alliance).

Big Mom is too obvious, and since Oda wanted it to be mysterious, it can't be her.

No one cares about Kaido, so it can't be him. Luffy wouldn't have had that reaction about someone he doesn't even know, and it's totally not like him to go against someone that he never met before.

As for Blackbeard, I'd say it's possible, but I don't think Luffy would have had that kind of reaction, since he must be resentful about Blackbeard...
He wouldn't have had that big of a smile.

natli
May 24, 2012, 07:54 AM
I agree Luffy might one day challenge Shanks to a friendly match. But to think he's gonna team up with Law and use a trick to defeat him, is ridiculous. So, I'm sure it's not Shanks.

It can't be Kaidou either because Luffy doesn't know him and cares only about opponents who stand in his way.

Those opponents are Big Mom and Blackbeard. If it's BigMom it makes sense plot-wise to make it a mystery, because it keeps people guessing. If it's BB, their plan will probably get delayed, because BB is one of the last opponents for Luffy, if not THE last one. There are people saying Luffy would get angry hearing BB's name, but he had some surprising reactions in the past, so it's hard to judge by his expression.

Personally, I vote for BB :p

VegetarianWolf
May 24, 2012, 11:17 AM
Does anyone here thought of two yonkou? Law said that he wanted to create some confusion so how about make two yonkou fight each other then take out the weakened victor.

Kaiten
May 24, 2012, 12:05 PM
I agree Luffy might one day challenge Shanks to a friendly match. But to think he's gonna team up with Law and use a trick to defeat him, is ridiculous. So, I'm sure it's not Shanks.

It can't be Kaidou either because Luffy doesn't know him and cares only about opponents who stand in his way.

Those opponents are Big Mom and Blackbeard. If it's BigMom it makes sense plot-wise to make it a mystery, because it keeps people guessing. If it's BB, their plan will probably get delayed, because BB is one of the last opponents for Luffy, if not THE last one. There are people saying Luffy would get angry hearing BB's name, but he had some surprising reactions in the past, so it's hard to judge by his expression.

Personally, I vote for BB :p

The problem with BB is that he has long been established as Luffy's greatest rival, the character Luffy is judged against. By challenging Big Mom at Fishman Island, Oda opened up the possibility that this rivalry could play out between two Yonkou from the start, rather than forcing Luffy to "power up" to BB's level later in the series. If Luffy defeats Mom or Kaido the rest of the New World would be about Luffy and Blackbeard's rise as powers and emerging rivalry, with each fending off challengers, maneuvering to break the balance of power, and position themselves to become Pirate King.

In case anyone forgot, Oda established Blackbeard as a rival of Luffy even before he was identified. His name is first mentioned by Ace, but he was not identified during his first appearance here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v24/c223/16.html). From the first he and Luffy were competing, who could eat the most, how did Luffy have such a high bounty, etc.

Kaido obviously makes less sense because he holds little resonance with the characters and none for the audience. Shanks is obviously out of the question. Luffy's most precious keep sake and symbol as a Pirate was a gift from Shanks. Shanks was established in chapter 1 (and the first Romance Dawn pilot) as Luffy's surrogate father figure, the adult he most admired. The thought of him even challenging Shanks is completely ridiculous, adds nothing to the story, and rewrites Shanks (extremely important ) role in the manga.

M3J
May 24, 2012, 02:39 PM
Saying it's not Big Mom with "Oh, Oda still kept it as a mystery" as an excuse does not work. There are plenty of reasons for Oda to want to keep it a mystery. Maybe he didn't tell us because we'd think "if it was Big Mom, he'd have revealed it by now!" It can still just as likely be Big Mom, but Oda is keeping us in suspense.

I still think Shanks is the least likely considering what Luffy thinks about him. It could be possible Luffy's pretendin to team up with Law to protect Shanks, but his reaction wouldn't be that calm or happy. Could be, probably because he gets to meet Shanks again.

I just don't think Big Mom should be dismissed just because we weren't told who the target is.

EddyBob15
May 24, 2012, 06:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, how would everyone react if Blackbeard was Law's target?

AnimeCrazy
May 25, 2012, 12:18 PM
I really don't think its Shanks because Luffy made a promise to him saying he will be the strongest pirate in the world and how he will be the King of the pirates. Not to mention how he will defeat him. It WON'T be Big Ma because he wants to defeat her on his own.

Vespa
May 25, 2012, 12:53 PM
Just a theory but maybe law wants to kidnap CC in order to make some candies and let mom be dipendent, if she wants more she has to show herself, also the fact that in this arc there are "sweet" and "giant " kid (big mom is really "big" but she isn't a giant, if she is, should have a giant crew, so the fact that she is enourmous is related with something else) makes me think that probably the Emperor will be Big Mom.

karamm
May 25, 2012, 09:52 PM
When Law told Luffy which Yonkou he wanted to take down, Luffy had this weird smile on his face. So, im guessing it cant be Shanks, because Luffy wouldnt be happy about anyone wanting to take him down. There seems to be a connection between Punk Hazard and one of the Yonkou. As someone had already stated that Big Mom is huge, so maybe she's taken one of Caesar Clown's medicines (as stated by someone earlier); however, the person Caesar is taking orders from is referred to as "Joker", and Big Mom isnt much of a joker.
The only "jokers" that come to mind are Doflamingo and that Lafitte (flying guy) from Blackbeard's crew. Both of them are known to be able to either hypnotize or control people (to be able to make people believe rumors).
So my vote goes to Shanks. Just kidding. I really like to think Doflamingo is associated with a Yonkou, so im voting for Kaido.

Kaiten
May 26, 2012, 11:28 AM
What connection is there between Punk Hazard and a Yonkou? Before the accident Punk Hazard was Vegapunk's weapon and drug development facility. Caesar was a former colleague of Vegapunk, and chemical weapons expert at Punk Hazard. Law did not go to Punk Hazard because it is a Yonkou's territory, or has some connection to a Yonkou. The island is abandoned, a wasteland cordoned off by the government. Caesar returned to continue his experiments, complete a human gigantism serum, and prove he is a greater scientist than Vegapunk. Joker is a marine at G-5 covering for Caesar, hiding kidnapped children reports from the public. There is no reason to believe he has a connection to the Yonkou. In the manga he has only been referenced in connection to the Marines. Vegapunk's research notes were left behind at Punk Hazard, the reason behind Law's presence. He is not there to challenge a Yonkou, he is there to find a weapon, the "sleeping power" he can use to challenge a Yonkou. There is NO CONNECTION between Punk Hazard, Caesar, Joker,and a Yonkou. None.

Rikudou King
May 27, 2012, 12:40 AM
It being Kaido would be a excellent way to link him to current events and fully reveal him, so I think he's the target. But I also wouldn't discount Big Mom.

mattiaildivino
May 27, 2012, 07:40 AM
It being Kaido would be a excellent way to link him to current events and fully reveal him, so I think he's the target. But I also wouldn't discount Big Mom.

that's exactly what I support. it would be a good way to show kaido. especially since I still think that the fight against big mam won't be fought because of Lola,whose favour still has to be seen and her mam was said to be an incredible pirate in the NW.

@Kaiten,I share your points of view in a lot of things you pointed out,but (forgive me) I've good reasons to believe what I said...

Kaiten
May 28, 2012, 10:25 AM
What are those reasons? If Law and Luffy do fight Kaido, what becomes of the unfinished business from Fishman Island? They still owe her candy, the treasure they sent her still contains a bomb, Luffy is still her enemy, and Jinbe is still bound to her service. None of this changes if they fight Kaido, Big Mom is still an imminent threat to Luffy and his friends at Fishman Island. Luffy will have to do the impossible twice, defeating two Yonkou in consecutive, or near consecutive arcs.

More importantly: it would be incompetent storytelling for Oda to introduce a Yonkou as an imminent enemy of Luffy, have Luffy and Law form an alliance to defeat a Yonkou, and then have them attack a Yonkou who has yet to be introduced, ignoring the Big Mom plot lines just introduced a few months ago.

hyper_megaman
May 28, 2012, 02:33 PM
no one has fixed the hidden poll yet?

can any mods/admins change it for the OP?

M3J
May 28, 2012, 02:42 PM
What are those reasons? If Law and Luffy do fight Kaido, what becomes of the unfinished business from Fishman Island? They still owe her candy, the treasure they sent her still contains a bomb, Luffy is still her enemy, and Jinbe is still bound to her service. None of this changes if they fight Kaido, Big Mom is still an imminent threat to Luffy and his friends at Fishman Island. Luffy will have to do the impossible twice, defeating two Yonkou in consecutive, or near consecutive arcs.

More importantly: it would be incompetent storytelling for Oda to introduce a Yonkou as an imminent enemy of Luffy, have Luffy and Law form an alliance to defeat a Yonkou, and then have them attack a Yonkou who has yet to be introduced, ignoring the Big Mom plot lines just introduced a few months ago.

Could be just as possible Law and Luffy will go after Kaidou and Big Mom. I don't recall the manga ever saying they were enemies, hated each other, or worked with each other. They could have been allies for all we know to stand against Whitebeard and/or Shanks just in case.

Kaiten
May 28, 2012, 05:32 PM
no one has fixed the hidden poll yet?

can any mods/admins change it for the OP?

Sorry, can't be done now that voting has started. I can't edit the poll to make who voted for what visible, the only thing I can do is strip the poll and start over.


Could be just as possible Law and Luffy will go after Kaidou and Big Mom. I don't recall the manga ever saying they were enemies, hated each other, or worked with each other. They could have been allies for all we know to stand against Whitebeard and/or Shanks just in case.

Two Yonkou seems like overkill. Defeating one is hard enough, two at once probably isn't possible. That would also waste Kaido, who would otherwise have been available for another arc. Until proven wrong I'm assuming X Drake will be prominently involved in a Kaido arc.

Dice
May 29, 2012, 05:05 PM
To dismiss Blackbeard and Shanks as valid choices of Law right of the bat is something you should never do in story that unpredictable. If Law has a super plan who needs a few more strong people to work it could be anyone of the current yonkou.
That said Big Mum might obviously be a good choice because Luffy already declared war but does that mean Law wants to fight her right now? Not necessarily. I'd like to take Luffy's reaction towards Laws offer into consideration. Luffy seems to be happy about the chosen one so I could be her. Though their would still the possibility of a different emotion in Big Moms case I'd lean towards a happy face of Luffy because he found an ally against an enemy he already made.
If Law chose Shanks as his target it could explain Luffy's reaction too. He is happy to see him again and thinks that Law should not pose a threat to him. One could also use the argument that the happy face is actually a reason why it can't be Shanks. Luffy is always very protective of his friends and so an angry face would not be unexpectedly. Here it's hard to decide if he would make an happy, an angry or an irritated face but I guess he would not right away show such a happy face (I'm leaning to irritated in Shanks case).
But Luffy's happy face could also be explained if the target is Kaidou. He doesn't know him and though he is not an enemy yet he is foremost not a friend either and still an obstacle later on. So in Kaidous case knowing Luffy a smile would be the only choice why should he be angry in this case anyway?
I would dismiss Blackbeard as a possible choice of Law but not because he is more of an "endgame villain" (which he surely is) but because of Luffy's happy reaction. I suppose he would react far more emotional after hearing that he might encounter him pretty soon. The "endgame villain" argument does indeed not carry that much of a value for me because just being the target of this newly forged alliance doesn't mean that they have to beat him nor that they must meet him any time soon (the plan could fail miserably).

So far my choice would be:
1) Big Mom/Kaidou: The former for obvious reasons and a fitting reaction and the latter as a wild card and because the reaction still fits,
3) Shanks: Because the reaction of Luffy is explainable and it could lead to some interesting events.
4) Blackbeard: He's in the last place because here I find the smile of Luffy the least explainable and I don't think that Law's plan fails that miserably (though another lose against Blackbeard could stir up the engine even more).

Taking a look at Frami's reaction I'd say that this is just some face we could actually anticipate but on a closer analysis I'd dismiss Big Mum because of her face. Though she is a scaredy cat she should realise that Luffy would fit her nontheless and that Law could be an important ally in doing so. Other than that I think that a scared/ pretty irritated face would be justifed.

With her reaction in mind my choice will be modified like this:
1) Kaidou
2) Big Mom
3) Shanks
4) Blackbeard

BlackHair
May 29, 2012, 06:17 PM
In all seriousness without putting much thoughts into it, just ask urself since when does Luffy attack ppl for random reasons? The answer is never.

I mean Luffy always acts on justified reasons. So Luffy agreeing by just hearing the name of the Yonko should either mean Blackbeard or Big Mom. As for the other two, he doesn't has a reason. So it should be Big Mom, as she is already forshadowed while BB seems rather as pre Raftel material.

Oda being known as unpredictable is of no relevance. Its not like the last two blank pages were unpredictable.

Dice
May 30, 2012, 06:05 PM
Well you could argue that he understands that he needs to surpass the yonkou someday and forging an alliance with a guy he kinda likes anyway wouldn't seem to bad and furthermore he could think along the line "I don't care about Kaidou but I owe him big so I'll help him with his plan". In such a case the smile would simply imply that he can agree with the choice (in that scenario all but Shanks would have been possible).
I do think that the first yonkou Luffy meats in the nwe world will be Kaidou and maybe Oda will use him as a way to show what (one of the unknown) yonkou is made of. Maybe he will even be the first yonkou to be taken down but only with the help of Law and maybe others. Drake could be easily involved aswell for example. Comparing Kaidou's strenght with the strenght of Big Mum would indeed a way to show the threat even the unknown yonkou can pose and because Luffy already declared war on Big Mum this could lead to interesting events.

Something that I think should not be ignored is the fact that Oda didn't show us the choice for a reason. Think about it: this way he's building up tension and by revealing that the chosen yonkou is Big Mum all the tension building would not have been necessary. In most of the cases you would need such a writing style because the choice is indeed not the obvious one. Since there are only 4 valid choices that come to mind (maybe 5 if you say that Law's plan is not very specific and he lets Luffy chose) that leaves Shanks, Kaidou and Blackbeard as the less obvious ones.

Kaiten
July 04, 2012, 07:18 PM
Please Remember to Respect the 24 Hour Rule. Please Discuss Information From the New Chapter in the Chapter Discussion Thread Only, Until the Chapter Has Been Out for 24 Hours.

0Xellos
July 05, 2012, 04:32 PM
IMO Shanks.
The reason: Luffy wants to show Shanks just how powerful he became - enough to challenge him if not take him down. Just look at how happy he is about the idea!
Big Mom is too foreshadowed, if it was her there'd be no need for Odacchi to hide it from us, because most people wouldn't find it surprising.

abc1233
July 05, 2012, 07:28 PM
IMO Shanks.
The reason: Luffy wants to show Shanks just how powerful he became - enough to challenge him if not take him down. Just look at how happy he is about the idea!
Big Mom is too foreshadowed, if it was her there'd be no need for Odacchi to hide it from us, because most people wouldn't find it surprising.

BM being too foreshadowed isn't much of a reason for it not to be her. Oda could have hidden it precisely because of these discussions which were generated as a result. The other choices just wouldn't fit:
Shanks - Luffy would have had an angry/irritated face. He considers Shanks a friend and we all know how protective he is of his friends. The whole Luffy being happy that he gets to meet shanks is ridiculous, he hasn't actively sought to meet Shanks so why would he now? They both made a promise to meet again when Luffy was a great pirate and he still has a long way to go, Shanks didn't want to meet Luffy precisely because of this reason during the war. Besides, it's clear that Law doesn't want to just have a quick spar with a Yonkou and then leave, he wants to actually take them down, why would Luffy want to destroy everything that Shanks has worked for just to see who is stronger?

Kaidou - Luffy has no idea who he is, he'll have more of a confused face than anything

BB - A simple happy face is just out of the ordinary considering all that's happened.

There's also the fact that if they go after any other yonkou besides BM, everything with FI will be unresolved for a while, which I just don't see happening.

Bigfoot187
July 06, 2012, 03:06 AM
I don't think Law was talking about Big MOM since everybody was so shocked/surprised, Luffy already declared war on Big Mom so it wouldn't be so surprising.
So because of the shock, I guess it has to be teach or shanks. Since they don't know Kaido so their reaction wouldn't be so shocked and it probably wouldn;t be kept a secret.

Laif
July 07, 2012, 07:28 AM
I don't think Law was talking about Big MOM since everybody was so shocked/surprised, Luffy already declared war on Big Mom so it wouldn't be so surprising.
So because of the shock, I guess it has to be teach or shanks. Since they don't know Kaido so their reaction wouldn't be so shocked and it probably wouldn;t be kept a secret.

Or it is Big Mom actually.. and the fact They were surprised is beacuse Law somehow found out they declared war on her and was willing/agreeing to help in exchange for something

Kaiten
July 07, 2012, 11:43 AM
IMO Shanks.
The reason: Luffy wants to show Shanks just how powerful he became - enough to challenge him if not take him down. Just look at how happy he is about the idea!
Big Mom is too foreshadowed, if it was her there'd be no need for Odacchi to hide it from us, because most people wouldn't find it surprising.

Writing doesn't work like that :bored

There seems to be some confusion about the definition of foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is a subtle hint at future plot direction. When Ace makes first mention of Blackbeard (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/4752/one-piece_ch159_by_null/15), that is foreshadowing. The audience was only informed that Blackbeard was a criminal Ace was tracking. His identity and role in the greater narrative of the story was not explained, leaving the audience free to speculate.

Luffy declaring war on Big Mom was a matter of telegraphing, not foreshadowing. Telegraphing is the direct, full disclosure of a future plot development. There are no remaining mysteries about Big Mom's role in One Piece. We know she poses an imminent threat to Fishman Island, that Luffy has declared war on her, that a bomb was inadvertently sent to her, and that Jinbe can not join the Strawhats until she is defeated. The only question is when the Strawhats confront her crew.

A red herring is the opposite of foreshadowing, a subtle hint meant to mislead the audience, obscuring the direction the plot is headed. A red herring is meant to manipulate expectations, increasing the impact of surprise revelations. The statements Law made about himself before the timeskip are a good example of a red herring. Part of the audience was manipulated into believing he would either be a villain or callous, uncaring character. His true role in the manga was established when he saved Luffy and Jinbe's life after Marineford. A red herring must be subtle, lying to the audience renders it ineffective. The disconnect between Law's words and his actions (a literary device called irony) was enough to manipulate expectations without lying to the audience.

All of these plot devices are meant to manipulate expectations, a way for authors to guide the audience in a desired direction, or to obscure future developments and keep plot twists fresh. Foreshadowing and telegraphing also help establish continuity. They allow the author to preview future developments, connect disparate story lines, and establish more organic plot twists. Oda likely telegraphed Big Mom's role in order to establish continuity between Fishman Island and developments to come at Punk Hazard. Law's proposed alliance could still surprise the audience, and yet remain a logical extension of recent events.

If telegraphing Big Mom was an elaborate red herring, all plot continuity would be lost. Rather than a carefully scripted, logical development, Law's goal of defeating a Yonkou would be a soap opera twist with no connection to prior events in the manga. Kaido has not been introduced, Big Mom has. And the introduction was recent, during the transition from Fishman Island to Punk Hazard. Shanks is even more illogical. Confronting Shanks would contradict the entire manga, Shank's role and relationship to Luffy was established before One Piece was even serialized, in the first Romance Dawn one shot. His role has been further reinforced with every appearance. A confrontation between Luffy and Shanks would be a massive break in continuity, retconning Shank's role and Luffy's personality.

Black Hawk
July 08, 2012, 05:56 PM
To dismiss Blackbeard and Shanks as valid choices of Law right of the bat is something you should never do in story that unpredictable. If Law has a super plan who needs a few more strong people to work it could be anyone of the current yonkou.
That said Big Mum might obviously be a good choice because Luffy already declared war but does that mean Law wants to fight her right now? Not necessarily. I'd like to take Luffy's reaction towards Laws offer into consideration. Luffy seems to be happy about the chosen one so I could be her. Though their would still the possibility of a different emotion in Big Moms case I'd lean towards a happy face of Luffy because he found an ally against an enemy he already made.
If Law chose Shanks as his target it could explain Luffy's reaction too. He is happy to see him again and thinks that Law should not pose a threat to him. One could also use the argument that the happy face is actually a reason why it can't be Shanks. Luffy is always very protective of his friends and so an angry face would not be unexpectedly. Here it's hard to decide if he would make an happy, an angry or an irritated face but I guess he would not right away show such a happy face (I'm leaning to irritated in Shanks case).
But Luffy's happy face could also be explained if the target is Kaidou. He doesn't know him and though he is not an enemy yet he is foremost not a friend either and still an obstacle later on. So in Kaidous case knowing Luffy a smile would be the only choice why should he be angry in this case anyway?
I would dismiss Blackbeard as a possible choice of Law but not because he is more of an "endgame villain" (which he surely is) but because of Luffy's happy reaction. I suppose he would react far more emotional after hearing that he might encounter him pretty soon. The "endgame villain" argument does indeed not carry that much of a value for me because just being the target of this newly forged alliance doesn't mean that they have to beat him nor that they must meet him any time soon (the plan could fail miserably).

So far my choice would be:
1) Big Mom/Kaidou: The former for obvious reasons and a fitting reaction and the latter as a wild card and because the reaction still fits,
3) Shanks: Because the reaction of Luffy is explainable and it could lead to some interesting events.
4) Blackbeard: He's in the last place because here I find the smile of Luffy the least explainable and I don't think that Law's plan fails that miserably (though another lose against Blackbeard could stir up the engine even more).

Taking a look at Frami's reaction I'd say that this is just some face we could actually anticipate but on a closer analysis I'd dismiss Big Mum because of her face. Though she is a scaredy cat she should realise that Luffy would fit her nontheless and that Law could be an important ally in doing so. Other than that I think that a scared/ pretty irritated face would be justifed.

With her reaction in mind my choice will be modified like this:
1) Kaidou
2) Big Mom
3) Shanks
4) Blackbeard

But maybe Law needs more power and people, Cause a simple Rookie can´t beat so easy a yonkou. For WB they need and complete army and Pirate Crew to defeat him and Giants and Admirals. So i think, Law isn´t able to defeat a Yonkou alone. So he needs more help from other Person. Aslong we don´t know the reason, why Law leave Don Flamingo. We dont be able to understand his plans and reason. Maybe BigMum stands also under controll of Don Flamingo. But that is no reason to think in other Way.
My first tought was they wanna defeat Shanks. But for that Ruffys Crew are not complett yet. Remember the promise the give another one. Ruffy say next time we meet us, my Crew will be better then yours. So when he come up with Law and his Crew defeat Shanks it will not be the promise they give. And the biggest Point in One Piece are promises.

So my hope goes to Shanks, but the Way it looks it will be BigMum. Like i said Ruffys Crew not complett yet and he will fight Shanks alone not with help from other Crews. For Kaidou is he a Yonkou overall?? I mean XDrake is not a youngster like other Pirates. He was a former high marine Officer befor he get a Pirate. That is a different Lvl and experience like Law and Ruffy got.


IMO Shanks.
The reason: Luffy wants to show Shanks just how powerful he became - enough to challenge him if not take him down. Just look at how happy he is about the idea!
Big Mom is too foreshadowed, if it was her there'd be no need for Odacchi to hide it from us, because most people wouldn't find it surprising.

First im also on your toughts, i hope it will be Shanks. Only about the foreshadowing stuff. In OP Color Walk 2 in the Interview of Eiichiro ODA and Fujiko Fujio. Oda says he doesn´t care what his Fans wanna see or await. He only draw, what he wanna draw. So when Oda wanna see BigMum falling, he will draw it.

jaymizzo
July 08, 2012, 06:58 PM
It is more plausible to be Big Mama. Since Luffy already declared war on her.

Like a lot of you, Shanks would be a total disaster for them. He would utterly destroy them tbh and it would go agaisnt the whole continuation and promise Luffy and he made back then. Shanks will probably not even bother fighting them and treat them like fodder.

Blackbeard would be too early and would probably beat them to a pulp. Though IMO Luffy would give more than a challenge for BB adding in Law and we have BB going all out and murdering theyre crews. And we know BB is not above playing dirty or cowardly strategies.

Kaidou like a lot of you said would not make sense since, Luffy and the crew have not actively shown any knowledge of him.

Big Mama would be the most likely and given Luffys expression it seems to be highly likely. He already declared war on her and she is an immediate threat to him and his friends and is the only hurdle in his plan of getting Jinbei as a crew mate. And we know Luffy loves getting himself some crewmates and would go to extremes. Especially taking into account the relationship he has with Jinbei.

So logically speaking, Big Mama is Laws and Luffys target. Besides am i the only one who believes Law will betray Luffy?

M3J
July 09, 2012, 05:30 PM
Honestly, saying "if it was Big Mom, then Oda wouldn't keep it a secret!" is bad logic. Why wouldn't he keep it a secret? As far as we know, it could be any Yonkou, and him not revealing Big Mom keeps us in suspense longer. Because Oda didn't tell us, we're doubting which Yonkou Luffy will face now, but it can still very well be Big Mom. It's a cliffhanger.

I'm not saying it's definitely Big Mom, I'm just saying it's illogical to count her out just because Oda didn't reveal who Law is going after or wants to go after.

jaymizzo
July 09, 2012, 05:45 PM
Honestly, saying "if it was Big Mom, then Oda wouldn't keep it a secret!" is bad logic. Why wouldn't he keep it a secret? As far as we know, it could be any Yonkou, and him not revealing Big Mom keeps us in suspense longer. Because Oda didn't tell us, we're doubting which Yonkou Luffy will face now, but it can still very well be Big Mom. It's a cliffhanger.

I'm not saying it's definitely Big Mom, I'm just saying it's illogical to count her out just because Oda didn't reveal who Law is going after or wants to go after.

Fancy meeting you here :3c

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesnt give you theyre position.

winterwyrm
July 09, 2012, 11:35 PM
Fancy meeting you here :3c

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesn't give you their position.

Well it seems like killing a yonkou gives you the reputation and respect that would be needed to push you up to yonkou level, this can be seen in impel down when they all the inmates clamored over the possibility of being the man who killed whitebeard, and also when buggy was reflecting on the war and said "man I want to kill whitebeard, I could be a.... YONKOU!!!" (he then fainted as it was too much for him) as fantastic as that may be, it seems like in order to kill a yonkou, you already should have considerable power and influence, however blackbeard was only recognized as one after he conquered a considerable amount of land, so he would probably have been on that path eventually, but after expanding a bit he became unquestionably a yonkou. (could you imagine what living under his rule would be like?)

Either way it's unlikely that Luffy would kill big mam, or even kill a single member of her crew, so it seems unlikely that he could take her spot, a more likely situation would be law collecting her heart and those of her commanders, and then subsuming them into his new empire. Honestly it seems to me like luffy would be constrained by governing that much land, and while he would own places like FI, perhaps it would be more like friendship, and he would not be seen as a yonkou until he fights blackbeard, and then would use that authority to challenge the marines finally.

Kaiten
July 10, 2012, 08:16 PM
It should already be obvious who the senior partner in this alliance is, Luffy is already bossing Law around.

If someone is powerful enough to defeat a Yonkou, they will probably be acclaimed a Yonkou themselves. What makes a Yonkou is that if the World Government or another Yonkou defeats them, the consequences would be so dire that it almost would not have been worth the effort. Look at the aftermath of the War for an example. That was the whole point of the "balance of power" Oda spent half of part one talking about. If a pirate can somehow defeat a Yonkou without being fatally weakened in victory, they have to be one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World.

Luffy will not be governing islands when he becomes a Yonkou. Where do these ideas even come from? It has already been confirmed that Yonkou do not necessarily rule their territory. It has yet to even be confirmed if any Yonkou actually do take political control of islands. So far none have even been shown to rule by proxy. They form protection alliances with various islands based on terms that differ between the Yonkou. Whitebeard was shown forming alliances in exchange for friendship. Big Mom has been shown forming alliances in exchange for tribute. Based on a template the author has already established we know, beyond even the tiniest shadow of a doubt, that Luffy need not rule islands he is allied with.

Luffy will obviously defeat a Yonkou, recent plot developments should make that immediately obvious. He's already declared war against Big Mom and formed a pirate alliance with the sole purpose of defeating a Yonkou in mind. What except defeating a Yonkou could these developments be leading towards. And what would be the point of defeating a Yonkou if not being proclaimed a Yonkou. Plot logic dictates that it only makes sense to have Luffy proclaimed a Yonkou in the aftermath of defeating a Yonkou. Being proclaimed a Yonkou several arcs later would be besides the point, well after the emotional impact of such a massive victory.

Wha
July 11, 2012, 04:45 AM
Fancy meeting you here :3c

It is bound to be Big Mama though. I personally see no other explanation to Luffys reaction. He didnt even have a second thought once the Yonkou was mentioned. And taking her down would benefit him the most

I still dont see Luffy attaining status as Yonkou just yet. I see that position being open or taken over by Law who will still have a brotherly alliance with Luffy after Luffy inevitably does something jesus like for him.

It would be weird for Luffy to end up a Yonkou this early in part 2. Unless ofcourse i am completely mistaken and simply taking down a Yonkou doesnt give you theyre position.



Well i am not so sure about that. Luffys reaction could be explained with the Younkou being Big Mom. Namis reaction is troubling me here. There was a conversation about Law betraying them and i first thought that would be the reason for her concerns, but now i'm troubled: If the yonkou Law want's to take down really is BM, why is Nami so shaken? Luffy already told BM that he would fight her and i think that if they would met with BM, she would try to destroy them (and i asume that Nami knows that).
Law is strong, has got an incredible ability and their chances of beating a yonkou would turn to the better. So i think they are hesitating because it's another Yonkou.

Luffys reaction is just like Luffy. I mean, Law saved his life and we know that Luffy isn't the kind of guy who forgets something like that. I think the only yonkou he wouldn't try to take down with Law would be shanks. I just don't see Luffy relying on a pirate alliance or someone except for his own crew when he faces shanks. I think that he would want to show him his strength and the strength of his crew.


What troubles me the most isn't Luffy but Law. Now we know that Law was part of Doflas crew. We know that Law wants something back. Don't know if it's dofla (but i think so) who "stole" something from him, but they don't seem to have a friendly relationship (conversation with Vergo, Law tied up in a cage,......). We know that Dofla is strong but more importantly we know that his influence is almost everywhere.

My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?
The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

abc1233
July 11, 2012, 07:52 AM
It should already be obvious who the senior partner in this alliance is, Luffy is already bossing Law around.

If someone is powerful enough to defeat a Yonkou, they will probably be acclaimed a Yonkou themselves. What makes a Yonkou is that if the World Government or another Yonkou defeats them, the consequences would be so dire that it almost would not have been worth the effort. Look at the aftermath of the War for an example. That was the whole point of the "balance of power" Oda spent half of part one talking about. If a pirate can somehow defeat a Yonkou without being fatally weakened in victory, they have to be one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World.

Luffy will not be governing islands when he becomes a Yonkou. Where do these ideas even come from? It has already been confirmed that Yonkou do not necessarily rule their territory. It has yet to even be confirmed if any Yonkou actually do take political control of islands. So far none have even been shown to rule by proxy. They form protection alliances with various islands based on terms that differ between the Yonkou. Whitebeard was shown forming alliances in exchange for friendship. Big Mom has been shown forming alliances in exchange for tribute. Based on a template the author has already established we know, beyond even the tiniest shadow of a doubt, that Luffy need not rule islands he is allied with.

Luffy will obviously defeat a Yonkou, recent plot developments should make that immediately obvious. He's already declared war against Big Mom and formed a pirate alliance with the sole purpose of defeating a Yonkou in mind. What except defeating a Yonkou could these developments be leading towards. And what would be the point of defeating a Yonkou if not being proclaimed a Yonkou. Plot logic dictates that it only makes sense to have Luffy proclaimed a Yonkou in the aftermath of defeating a Yonkou. Being proclaimed a Yonkou several arcs later would be besides the point, well after the emotional impact of such a massive victory.

This may be more complicated if Luffy isn't the only one who takes down BM. If him and Law, along with any others who join the alliance (I'm thinking Kid) fight BM together then they can't all be proclaimed to be Yonkou-level. Depending on how far down the story the final battle with BM takes place, this may actually be the more likely scenario.



Well i am not so sure about that. Luffys reaction could be explained with the Younkou being Big Mom. Namis reaction is troubling me here. There was a conversation about Law betraying them and i first thought that would be the reason for her concerns, but now i'm troubled: If the yonkou Law want's to take down really is BM, why is Nami so shaken? Luffy already told BM that he would fight her and i think that if they would met with BM, she would try to destroy them (and i asume that Nami knows that).
Law is strong, has got an incredible ability and their chances of beating a yonkou would turn to the better. So i think they are hesitating because it's another Yonkou.

Luffys reaction is just like Luffy. I mean, Law saved his life and we know that Luffy isn't the kind of guy who forgets something like that. I think the only yonkou he wouldn't try to take down with Law would be shanks. I just don't see Luffy relying on a pirate alliance or someone except for his own crew when he faces shanks. I think that he would want to show him his strength and the strength of his crew.


What troubles me the most isn't Luffy but Law. Now we know that Law was part of Doflas crew. We know that Law wants something back. Don't know if it's dofla (but i think so) who "stole" something from him, but they don't seem to have a friendly relationship (conversation with Vergo, Law tied up in a cage,......). We know that Dofla is strong but more importantly we know that his influence is almost everywhere.

My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?
The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

Fair enough if he's the head of a secret underworld organisation, but secretly the head of one of the most powerful pirate crews in the world? That's pretty unlikely. For one thing, he would have had to spend many years gaining influence, defeating powerful opponents and claiming territories as his own without showing his face. He clashed with Shanks whilst Don Flamingo was at Marinford, plus Moria fought Kaidou too but didn't make the link between the two at any point. I wouldn't be surprised if Kaidou is somehow linked to Don Flamingo's organisation though.

Kaiten
July 11, 2012, 12:14 PM
This may be more complicated if Luffy isn't the only one who takes down BM. If him and Law, along with any others who join the alliance (I'm thinking Kid) fight BM together then they can't all be proclaimed to be Yonkou-level. Depending on how far down the story the final battle with BM takes place, this may actually be the more likely scenario.

Luffy is the hero of One Piece. Law is a supporting character. The plot will work out so that Luffy defeats Big Mom and the Heart Pirates become an allied fleet. The supporting cast will not steal the hero's glory. It should be obvious who's in charge already. Luffy says he wants to save the children from Caesar, so they are saving the children from Caesar. It did not matter how much Law protested.

What makes you think Kid will help Luffy defeat Big Mom? Couldn't he instead become an inherited enemy after she is defeated? An enemy of an enemy is not necessarily a friend.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------


My question: Why does Law want to take down a yonkou while he has unfinished business with dofla?

What makes you think Law and Doflamingo have unfinished business? Law said he is a former crew member, he never said he left under bad circumstances.

Law has already said why he wants to defeat a Yonkou (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/102611/one-piece_ch667_by_mangarule/18). To survive in the New World you either have to be a Yonkou, allied to a Yonkou, or constantly challenge a Yonkou. Clearly Law has chosen to challenge a Yonkou, and has a plan that might actually lead to victory.


The only reason i could think of is Dofla having a deep connection to one of the four emperors or Dofla being one (that would have to be kaidou because he is the only one we haven't seen in action so far).

Somebody said it already in the chapter discussion thread, but I repeat:

As a Yonkou, Kaido is a very well known Pirate. He is one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World, his identity can not be a secret. Unless he is a Scooby Doo villain, hiding behind a mask, there is no chance a pirate as famous as Doflamingo is secretly a pirate as famous as Kaido.

hoeru
July 11, 2012, 03:58 PM
Hm.... Somehow, I start to think that it's irrelevant which Yonkou Law wanted to bring down: He'll end up helping in fighting Bigmam anyways. With Pekoms, Tamago, and Kid - who already is challenging BM for some time now - appearing at the end of this chapter it's quite a given. Even if there's a field trip to the Wano Country first for the Straw Hats.

Kaiten
July 11, 2012, 06:13 PM
I wonder if I'm the odd one out in believing that Law doesn't have a preference on which Yonkou to take down. I believe Luffy will join against Big Mam because Luffy wants to, not because Law cares which one fall, so longs as it creates an opening for a new Yonkou.

Luffy already asked (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/103954/one-piece_ch668_by_mangarule/3) Law which Yonkou he plans on attacking, Law responded on the same page. Luffy accepted Law's invitation based on the name he was told. Law was the one who decided who to attack, not Luffy. The characters of the manga already know who they will be fighting, it is the audience that is not yet aware.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------


Hm.... Somehow, I start to think that it's irrelevant which Yonkou Law wanted to bring down: He'll end up helping in fighting Bigmam anyways. With Pekoms, Tamago, and Kid - who already is challenging BM for some time now - appearing at the end of this chapter it's quite a given. Even if there's a field trip to the Wano Country first for the Straw Hats.

I'm not convinced that Luffy will have to fight three Yonkou over the course of the series. He is already fighting one as part of the alliance, and he will obviously have to defeat Blackbeard later. Considering how long One Piece arcs can last, fighting all three could mean 200-300 chapters dedicated to nothing but Yonkou. While a distinct possibility, it could also be overkill. It would not surprise me if the remaining Yonkou was defeated by another member of the Worst Generation. Making three of the four Yonkou members of that generation would be effective symbolism for the age after Whitebeard's defeat.

I don't quite think Kid will help fight Big Mam either. I think his attacks against Big Mam were meant as a hint of how things work in the New World, later put into words by Law; either ally with a yonkou or constantly challenge one, that is the only way to survive. He doesn't seem the helpful type when personal glory is on the line. I can't imagine him helping Luffy and Law unless he is backed into a corner, like on Sabaody. Rather, once Luffy is proclaimed a Yonkou, I imagine Kid becoming one of his challengers.

llydnarz
July 11, 2012, 11:52 PM
Luffy doesn't just fight without a good reason. Unless its just a sparring or training. He might want to fight Shanks just to show that he has improved, but he wouldn't want to take him down and steal his title. So Kaidou and Shanks are already out of the choices.
That leaves us with Big Mom and BB. We all agree that it's still too early to fight BB so Big Mom would be that Yonkou.

Wha
July 12, 2012, 01:30 AM
What makes you think Law and Doflamingo have unfinished business? Law said he is a former crew member, he never said he left under bad circumstances.


As a Yonkou, Kaido is a very well known Pirate. He is one of the four most powerful pirates in the New World, his identity can not be a secret. Unless he is a Scooby Doo villain, hiding behind a mask, there is no chance a pirate as famous as Doflamingo is secretly a pirate as famous as Kaido.



i think so, because: .) his first reaction meeting vergo. First, going down, grabbing his heart. Second, http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/672/2

law states something like "i didn't do anything to harm you" and vergo replies with "if you already had you wouldn't be alive right now. Even if you hide things from us, the adults will find out...Law"

then law wants him to disappear - and is knocked down, imprisoned in a cage (vergo and Law have been crewmates, if their isn't a bad relationship or unfinished business between Dofla and Law, why would he do that?). Doesn't seem like a friendly relationship to me, especially the line "do you really think he had no idea" from vergo. Vergo is working for Joker, Joker is Dofla. No idea of what? And if Law isn't plotting something against Joker (Dofla), why doesn't he want him to know that he is on Punk Hazard if their relationship is fine?



as for kaidou.....well i have got no proof, most of it is based on speculations and i very well could be wrong. But i don't think it would be that hard to explain - does anybody know the movie "the usual suspects"? The main villian, the "boss of the underworld" is Keyser Söze but nobody knows what he really looks like. Everybody knows terrible stories about him, but nobody has ever seen him face to face.....

0Xellos
July 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
Writing doesn't work like that :bored

There seems to be some confusion about the definition of foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is a subtle hint at future plot direction. When Ace makes first mention of Blackbeard (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/4752/one-piece_ch159_by_null/15), that is foreshadowing. The audience was only informed that Blackbeard was a criminal Ace was tracking. His identity and role in the greater narrative of the story was not explained, leaving the audience free to speculate.

Luffy declaring war on Big Mom was a matter of telegraphing, not foreshadowing. Telegraphing is the direct, full disclosure of a future plot development. There are no remaining mysteries about Big Mom's role in One Piece. We know she poses an imminent threat to Fishman Island, that Luffy has declared war on her, that a bomb was inadvertently sent to her, and that Jinbe can not join the Strawhats until she is defeated. The only question is when the Strawhats confront her crew.

A red herring is the opposite of foreshadowing, a subtle hint meant to mislead the audience, obscuring the direction the plot is headed. A red herring is meant to manipulate expectations, increasing the impact of surprise revelations. The statements Law made about himself before the timeskip are a good example of a red herring. Part of the audience was manipulated into believing he would either be a villain or callous, uncaring character. His true role in the manga was established when he saved Luffy and Jinbe's life after Marineford. A red herring must be subtle, lying to the audience renders it ineffective. The disconnect between Law's words and his actions (a literary device called irony) was enough to manipulate expectations without lying to the audience.

I see... thanks for clearing it up :D


All of these plot devices are meant to manipulate expectations, a way for authors to guide the audience in a desired direction, or to obscure future developments and keep plot twists fresh. Foreshadowing and telegraphing also help establish continuity. They allow the author to preview future developments, connect disparate story lines, and establish more organic plot twists. Oda likely telegraphed Big Mom's role in order to establish continuity between Fishman Island and developments to come at Punk Hazard. Law's proposed alliance could still surprise the audience, and yet remain a logical extension of recent events.

If telegraphing Big Mom was an elaborate red herring, all plot continuity would be lost. Rather than a carefully scripted, logical development, Law's goal of defeating a Yonkou would be a soap opera twist with no connection to prior events in the manga. Kaido has not been introduced, Big Mom has. And the introduction was recent, during the transition from Fishman Island to Punk Hazard. Shanks is even more illogical. Confronting Shanks would contradict the entire manga, Shank's role and relationship to Luffy was established before One Piece was even serialized, in the first Romance Dawn one shot. His role has been further reinforced with every appearance. A confrontation between Luffy and Shanks would be a massive break in continuity, retconning Shank's role and Luffy's personality.

What confused me a bit is how Law proposed the alliance - that they'd develop a strategy and see if they can find a chance. It's hard to say if this attack on a Yonkou will happen anytime soon, in which case it'd be possible to have an alliance against Shanks without disrupting the continuity of the story (I'm having second thoughts about that now, though...)

There are many arguments for and against every Yonkou, it seems. Although I'd like some Luffy vs Shanks, that wouldn't be possible unless the strategy was a seriously long term one... oh well :D


Like a lot of you, Shanks would be a total disaster for them. He would utterly destroy them tbh and it would go agaisnt the whole continuation and promise Luffy and he made back then. Shanks will probably not even bother fighting them and treat them like fodder.

And what makes you think BM is so much weaker than Shanks? Yonkou should be at least approximately equal in strength, otherwise the weaker ones would be beat by the stronger ones. Even if there's probably some difference, it's not enough for one Yonkou to treat them like fodders and for another to not.

Dofla being Kaidou is quite impossible, he'd be recognizable by not only his appearance, but also his ability; what's more, Dofla was at MF during the war and Kaidou was in NW.

jaymizzo
July 13, 2012, 01:33 PM
What confused me a bit is how Law proposed the alliance - that they'd develop a strategy and see if they can find a chance. It's hard to say if this attack on a Yonkou will happen anytime soon, in which case it'd be possible to have an alliance against Shanks without disrupting the continuity of the story (I'm having second thoughts about that now, though...)

There are many arguments for and against every Yonkou, it seems. Although I'd like some Luffy vs Shanks, that wouldn't be possible unless the strategy was a seriously long term one... oh well :D

If Law and Luffy plan on going against Shanks, they would seem to be in the hurry for death. Though Shanks will most definately say no to a war declaration, if he was to acknowledge the declaration, these two and theyre crews would get beaten worse than what happened in Sabaody. Shanks is on a completely different level than the rest of the Yonkou (post Whitebeard) IMO.

And Luffy should know by now that his pirate crew is not as great as Shanks is, they made a promise to meet when Luffy has assembled a crew matching or contending with Shanks's own.

So for the sake of logic, Big Mam is the most reasonable choice. Luffy would not be smiling had it been anyone else i.e. Shanks or BB. The mere mention of Akainu made him look quite angry. So i dont think He would be smiling at the mention of BB.

Kaidou would be even more illogical since Luffy knows nothing about him. I think the reaction from Nami (i think it was her) was of shock as to what Law has against said Yonkou or why Law would propose him/her.

Still, story wise and logically, BB and Shanks should be out of the question.

danzouismadara
September 06, 2012, 03:51 PM
I think its kaido since he hasnt been introduced yet so this would be a nice way to involve him in one piece. Or big mam since luffy wants to take her out anyways. As for shanks...well luffy cant meet him yet until he gets reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy strong and famous. I think luffy will meet/fight shanks at the very end for the one piece. It was for shadowed in the very beginning when luffy said that his crew will beat shanks crew

BlackSword
September 08, 2012, 08:32 PM
Too me Kaido seems to be a valid possibility. For me it seems like everything we have experienced 'so far' in the New World is going to be tied together. We know that Doflamingo is behind a lot of the 'underworld/criminal' activity that has been shown thus far. To me it seems unlikely that he could do whatever he wanted without being an ally, underling(of a Yonkou) or controlling a Yonkou.

From what we've seen of 'Big Mam' she is a lot like Luffy only more ruthless. I can't really see her bothering to be involved w/ Child Experimentation or Weapons of Mass Destruction. Not because she thinks it's morally wrong but because neither of those things taste good! If Kaido in the end turns out responsible (albeit through Doflamingo) for the drug addicted children, Momomosuke's kidnap and whatever bad stuff is sure to happen before the end of Punk Hazard then I see it as a possible trigger. Kaido from what we know of him (via Moria and conversations w/ Sengoku) is a typical 'Luffy Opponent'.

This is just my opinion.

Jdapenao
September 09, 2012, 02:31 PM
I think it would be Kaido because when X-drake arrives to his favorite island in the NW (http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v61/c595/3.html), the one let to guard it seems kind of a cyborg ("Iron Boy" Scotch), which would be related to Vegapunk and CC, well it just a hunch.

danzouismadara
September 09, 2012, 03:22 PM
I think it would be Kaido because when X-drake arrives to his favorite island in the NW (http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v61/c595/3.html), the one let to guard it seems kind of a cyborg, which would be related to Vegapunk and CC, well it just a hunch.

good job i totally forgot about that...i think you are right. And i think kid will take out big mam since he has already sunk two of her ships. And we still havent seen kaido so this is a good way to introduce. I think Law will be a yonkou and not luffy because luffy has already said he doesnt care about conquering...he justs wants the one piece

BlackSword
September 09, 2012, 04:01 PM
Kidd's Alliance taking out Big Mom at the same time that Luffy and Law take out Kaido. O_O That would just be epic! And the chaos that would ensue would be amazing. The WG would be having reindeer left, right and sideways! I think everyone kinda wrote off/forgot about the Kidd, Hawkins & Apoo Alliance in light of all the events going on in PH. (Or at least I kinda did.)

Gah! I wanna see it go down like that! :zomg It might even lead to a face off of the original Supernovas which should be pretty epic too! All the chaos... All the fighting... :gaw

Zehahaha
September 09, 2012, 06:22 PM
Bleh I don't see the point of making Luffy/Law target Kaidou, considering BM is pissed at Luffy, and considering more that once Pekoms/Tamago will be back to meet BM and that she'd probably open the Tamatebako, the bomb will explode on her face (God I hope for that so badly), and she'd go on a rampage probably targeting even FI

And if Law/Luffy begin attacking Kaidou, having two Yonko's at your back would simply mean instant death for both of them

BlackSword
September 09, 2012, 07:12 PM
Thats why Kidd/Hawkins & Apoo would have to attack Big Mom first... The Strawhats don't know about the bomb and Kidd has proclaimed on a number of occasional that he won't let Luffy do whatever he likes. My previous post on this thread states why I think it will be Kaido first instead of Big Mom.

Zehahaha
September 09, 2012, 07:17 PM
Thats why Kidd/Hawkins & Apoo would have to attack Big Mom first... The Strawhats don't know about the bomb and Kidd has proclaimed on a number of occasional that he won't let Luffy do whatever he likes. My previous post on this thread states why I think it will be Kaido first instead of Big Mom.

But what would be the point of making Luffy state that he'd beat her ass in the DenDen Mushi ?
And then again, what would be the point of Luffy making FI his turf if Kidd's alliance would be the one to take down BM ?

Then all that build up about Luffy defying BM would be useless, and just a waste of panels

danzouismadara
September 09, 2012, 08:13 PM
Kaido would be better since there is no way they take out big mam imo. Someone who can kill blackbeard who has two super strong devil fruit powers.

Anyways, I dont think as they are now they can fight any1 lol two supernovas vs a yonkou that probably has tons of pirates like whitebeard....

BlackSword
September 09, 2012, 09:01 PM
But what would be the point of making Luffy state that he'd beat her ass in the DenDen Mushi ?
And then again, what would be the point of Luffy making FI his turf if Kidd's alliance would be the one to take down BM ?

Then all that build up about Luffy defying BM would be useless, and just a waste of panels

Wouldn't be a waste of panels! Luffy's declaration of 'war' stops Big Mom from immediately vaporizing FI. Kidd's Alliance takes out Big Mom... Kidd tries to Claim FI only to end up fighting Luffy for it.



Kaido would be better since there is no way they take out big mam imo. Someone who can kill blackbeard who has two super strong devil fruit powers.

Anyways, I dont think as they are now they can fight any1 lol two supernovas vs a yonkou that probably has tons of pirates like whitebeard....

I know your arguing on my side but I honestly don't know what your talking about/where you got this information. :blink

danzouismadara
September 09, 2012, 10:33 PM
Wouldn't be a waste of panels! Luffy's declaration of 'war' stops Big Mom from immediately vaporizing FI. Kidd's Alliance takes out Big Mom... Kidd tries to Claim FI only to end up fighting Luffy for it.




I know your arguing on my side but I honestly don't know what your talking about/where you got this information. :blink

gorosei said that big mam is one of the few who can kill blackbeard( the dudes who has two insane powers at the same time!)

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

meaning that she is strong as hell and i dont think luffy's and law's crew combined are enough for someone who is on par with whitebeard the man who destroyed like over half the marines and almost killed akainu andddd she probably has an alliance with many strong pirates like whitebeard

BlackSword
September 09, 2012, 10:34 PM
gorosei said that big mam is one of the few who can kill blackbeard( the dudes who has two insane powers at the same time!)

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

meaning that she is strong as hell and i dont think luffy's and law's crew combined are enough for someone who is on par with whitebeard the man who destroyed like over half the marines and almost killed akainu
Interesting... I honestly don't remember that part (goes to look) xD

Edit:
Found it! And that's definitely food for thought... Probably doesn't mean she is 'stronger' than the other Yonkou it probably just means she has a power that could work as a direct counter to Blackbeard.

MiyamotoMusashi
September 10, 2012, 12:11 AM
That was just a figure of speech. They said that the only ones who could stop Blackbeard after the war were Marco + the remnants of WB crew and the other Yonkou. It was meant to show how strong Blackbeard now is since he is the first one to ever "eat" 2 DFs, not the showcase how strong the other Yonkou are (who at that point should still be stronger than BB since his usage of the fruits was not that good 2 years ago). Now 2 years after BB is probably really adapt at using both DFs + his crew keeps getting strong DFs.
Concerning BM, to me it seems like she is supposed to be the Crocodile of the NW, someone who is actually really strong but has not fought a serious fight for a long time. She just seems to use her power and influence to get as much food as she can and live a leisured life. I still agree though that Law + the SHs + Sun Pirates would still not be enough but there is still the "key" Law was talking about (presuming his target is BM). Also, like many of you mentioned, the Alliance of Kidd, Hawkins and Apoo targeting BM is not that unlikely, so we can look forward to a nice arc. In my opinion Zehahaha is right though, Luffy declaring war on BM at FI in order to make FI his turf would not make sense at all if Kidd was the one who to take BM down. The Alliance KHA would just help to fight the crew, we´ve seen at Marineford what kind of amazing people are under one of the Yonkou, so them fighting the crew would make sense.

Zehahaha
September 10, 2012, 05:14 AM
gorosei said that big mam is one of the few who can kill blackbeard( the dudes who has two insane powers at the same time!)

---------- Post added at 10:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

meaning that she is strong as hell and i dont think luffy's and law's crew combined are enough for someone who is on par with whitebeard the man who destroyed like over half the marines and almost killed akainu andddd she probably has an alliance with many strong pirates like whitebeard

What Gorosei said is that the only forces that can stop BB are the Yonko/Remanants of the WB pirates


Wouldn't be a waste of panels! Luffy's declaration of 'war' stops Big Mom from immediately vaporizing FI. Kidd's Alliance takes out Big Mom... Kidd tries to Claim FI only to end up fighting Luffy for it.

Ofc it is, if she wanted to annhilate FI, she'd have probably asked Pekoms and Tamago to do that, and since the SH's were there, it would've mean a direct clash with her

And also, if Kidd would the one to do that, it would render the whole bomb thing inside the Tamatebako useless

Also, Kaidou wasn't even introduced, didn't do NOTHING to Luffy, had no interaction with him...

Junaid_Sennin
September 10, 2012, 07:47 AM
I haven't read through this entire thread, so forgive me if I'm just repeating what's already been said. I just came here to voice my opinion.

1. I don't believe Luffy would've agreed to join up with Law against Shanks.

2. I think it's too early in the story to be going up against Kurohige, and Luffy wouldn't have smiled at the time if they'd been talking about him. Also, Nami and Usopp wouldn't have behaved the way they did - they know about Luffy's trauma and how it pertains to/stems directly from Kurohige's actions, and they wouldn't have just been obsessing about how dumb it is to pick a fight with a Yonkou, they'd have been more tense and serious.

3. Luffy is the type to settle his own fights himself, without asking others for help or relying on others. That doesn't mean that he always tries to do everything himself - he knows better than that by now (I hope), and can rely on his nakama. So, if he'd already started a fight with someone, he wouldn't agree to team up with someone midway unless it was absolutely necessary. Therefore, I don't believe the target is Big Mam, since the fight hasn't even truly started yet, war has only been declared.

Thus, by means of deduction we arrive at our conclusion: Kaidou.

TL/DR: KAIDOU

Jdapenao
September 10, 2012, 02:25 PM
Bleh I don't see the point of making Luffy/Law target Kaidou, considering BM is pissed at Luffy, and considering more that once Pekoms/Tamago will be back to meet BM and that she'd probably open the Tamatebako, the bomb will explode on her face (God I hope for that so badly), and she'd go on a rampage probably targeting even FI

And if Law/Luffy begin attacking Kaidou, having two Yonko's at your back would simply mean instant death for both of them

Do you remember the Vivre Card Lola gave to Nami, I dont know why but maybe it ciuld be related to Big Mom and this will make a new kind of unfolding of what we expect, from a certain enemy to a an ally, It could be an interesting twist of what we expect!!!

The other thing is that we know for certain that at least Kid is also on the bad side of Big Mom, with the alliance of the Super Nova going against Big Mom, well I don't see the point of all going together against her, but it can also happen, well, its mostly speculation on our side.

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------


But what would be the point of making Luffy state that he'd beat her ass in the DenDen Mushi ?
And then again, what would be the point of Luffy making FI his turf if Kidd's alliance would be the one to take down BM ?

Then all that build up about Luffy defying BM would be useless, and just a waste of panels

They are not useless, more than the direct threat, what was important was for Fishman Island to escape the repercussions of Bog Mom anger, so he did achieve that, It was on the spur of the moment and Luffy itself says that it was the only way to avoid that, I even saw that Big Mom was pleased to Luffy's words of challenge rather than angry. Also Big Mom seems not to be so interested on treasure as she is on food, so is not necessarily for her to open the bomb in the treasure, it would be quite funny if it stolen by one of the supernovas in the alliance and end up in a great explosion in one of their hideouts.

Zehahaha
September 10, 2012, 02:55 PM
Do you remember the Vivre Card Lola gave to Nami, I dont know why but maybe it ciuld be related to Big Mom and this will make a new kind of unfolding of what we expect, from a certain enemy to a an ally, It could be an interesting twist of what we expect!!!

The other thing is that we know for certain that at least Kid is also on the bad side of Big Mom, with the alliance of the Super Nova going against Big Mom, well I don't see the point of all going together against her, but it can also happen, well, its mostly speculation on our side.

---------- Post added at 02:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------



They are not useless, more than the direct threat, what was important was for Fishman Island to escape the repercussions of Bog Mom anger, so he did achieve that, It was on the spur of the moment and Luffy itself says that it was the only way to avoid that, I even saw that Big Mom was pleased to Luffy's words of challenge rather than angry. Also Big Mom seems not to be so interested on treasure as she is on food, so is not necessarily for her to open the bomb in the treasure, it would be quite funny if it stolen by one of the supernovas in the alliance and end up in a great explosion in one of their hideouts.

Yes they are useless if Kidd would take BM instead, that's like let's say Pell and Chaka beating Crocodile in Alabasta, instead of Luffy after he discovered his identity as being the boss of BW and the guy who needs to be taken care of in order to stop the rebellion

In the same fashion of that little clash between Luffy and Lucci back at Water 7 if let's say it was Zoro who beat Lucci instead

You disregard the OBVIOUS build up, so that you can justify Luffy/Law going after Kaidou, while the guy has yet to be introduced to begin with, it's nonsensical

Yes Luffy eating all the candy didn't seem to piss off BM that much, hence the bomb thing in the Tamatebako, that would definitely push her to hunt Luffy

Jdapenao
September 10, 2012, 04:31 PM
Yes they are useless if Kidd would take BM instead, that's like let's say Pell and Chaka beating Crocodile in Alabasta, instead of Luffy after he discovered his identity as being the boss of BW and the guy who needs to be taken care of in order to stop the rebellion

In the same fashion of that little clash between Luffy and Lucci back at Water 7 if let's say it was Zoro who beat Lucci instead

You disregard the OBVIOUS build up, so that you can justify Luffy/Law going after Kaidou, while the guy has yet to be introduced to begin with, it's nonsensical

Yes Luffy eating all the candy didn't seem to piss off BM that much, hence the bomb thing in the Tamatebako, that would definitely push her to hunt Luffy

Seeing that BM didn't go and destroyed FI its not really as useless as you want to portrait it, specially because they in fact destroyed a country because it couldn't comply with the promised candies. The bomb in the Tamatebako is another mater, from the few information we have from BM she is after food rather than treasure, I don't see her interested in opening treasure brought to her.

Kaido and Big Mom are the the options we have because Luffy will not fight against Shanks and his reaction against Blackbeard would be different. On regards to the statement of Luffy kicking BM ass, it lead to think that the fighting would be against her, but Luffy is not the one proposing which Yonkou to attack, is Law who said that he has a plan to take down "one" of the Yonkou's, so the plan is specifically to attack one of them and that doesn't require to be Big Mom or be related to the past incident in FI, even if Luffy said what he said.

Zehahaha
September 10, 2012, 04:58 PM
Seeing that BM didn't go and destroyed FI its not really as useless as you want to portrait it, specially because they in fact destroyed a country because it couldn't comply with the promised candies. The bomb in the Tamatebako is another mater, from the few information we have from BM she is after food rather than treasure, I don't see her interested in opening treasure brought to her.

Kaido and Big Mom are the the options we have because Luffy will not fight against Shanks and his reaction against Blackbeard would be different. On regards to the statement of Luffy kicking BM ass, it lead to think that the fighting would be against her, but Luffy is not the one proposing which Yonkou to attack, is Law who said that he has a plan to take down "one" of the Yonkou's, so the plan is specifically to attack one of them and that doesn't require to be Big Mom or be related to the past incident in FI, even if Luffy said what he said.

She didn't destroy it because she said she'd target Luffy ffs
She said it herself

And I said even if she decided to destroy FI back then, Luffy would've fought against Pekoms/Tamago and it would've mean war with her either way
Why the bomb is another matter ? It is the freakin matter, why did Oda made such a thing only for BM not to open it and some minion doing it at her place ? What would be the purpose ?

Yeah she loves food more than treasure, what makes you think when Tamago and Pekoms will show up in front of her with the treasures, she won't open the Tamatebako ?

Fact is, Oda put an extreme emphasis on that whole bomb thing, it would be plain retarded if it doesn't explode on her face
Another thing is, the " voyage " between BM HQ and FI is a matter of days, there's a huge possibility that right after PH, a clash with BM will ensue or at least she may begin hunting Luffy and ordering her minions or even going herself to beat him

Jdapenao
September 10, 2012, 07:40 PM
She didn't destroy it because she said she'd target Luffy ffs
She said it herself

And I said even if she decided to destroy FI back then, Luffy would've fought against Pekoms/Tamago and it would've mean war with her either way
Why the bomb is another matter ? It is the freakin matter, why did Oda made such a thing only for BM not to open it and some minion doing it at her place ? What would be the purpose ?

Yeah she loves food more than treasure, what makes you think when Tamago and Pekoms will show up in front of her with the treasures, she won't open the Tamatebako ?

Fact is, Oda put an extreme emphasis on that whole bomb thing, it would be plain retarded if it doesn't explode on her face
Another thing is, the " voyage " between BM HQ and FI is a matter of days, there's a huge possibility that right after PH, a clash with BM will ensue or at least she may begin hunting Luffy and ordering her minions or even going herself to beat him

But all that you said does not mean that Big Mom HAS to be Law's target, you disregard all that I said about Law being the one that proposed the targeted Yonkou, knowing that Law is completely oblivious to what happened in Fishman Island.

The bomb could explode in BM face or could also hit on of his subordinate and could have the same effect, that could prompt her to go against the SH and eliminate Luffy, but that also does not mean that Laws targeted Yonkou is BM, it could be but it also could be Kaido.

The only thing I'm saying against your point is that you are making a close relation on regards to fishman island events with the proposal of Law when they are different, I agree that by chance it could BM but it also could be Kaido, also remember that Luffy doesn't know about the bomb so he isn't aware of the problems he could have with BM if it goes off.

It would be very funny if it happened as the King Neptune and his minister expected and the bomb does not explode LOL :P

danzouismadara
October 06, 2012, 11:16 PM
It's Kaido NOT big mam ( I believe big mam won't fight luffy, because I predict that her daughter is Lola from thriller bark arc) so, she will let luffy have Fisherman island.

Kaido has a connection to dr.vegapunk who is connected to CC and joker.v

MiyamotoMusashi
October 08, 2012, 05:34 AM
But all that you said does not mean that Big Mom HAS to be Law's target, you disregard all that I said about Law being the one that proposed the targeted Yonkou, knowing that Law is completely oblivious to what happened in Fishman Island.

The bomb could explode in BM face or could also hit on of his subordinate and could have the same effect, that could prompt her to go against the SH and eliminate Luffy, but that also does not mean that Laws targeted Yonkou is BM, it could be but it also could be Kaido.

The only thing I'm saying against your point is that you are making a close relation on regards to fishman island events with the proposal of Law when they are different, I agree that by chance it could BM but it also could be Kaido, also remember that Luffy doesn't know about the bomb so he isn't aware of the problems he could have with BM if it goes off.

It would be very funny if it happened as the King Neptune and his minister expected and the bomb does not explode LOL :P

You are right to the point that the one Law targets does not have to be BM but can also be Kaidou, at least judging from the reactions of Luffy and his relation with the other two of the Yonkou (Shanks and BB). I have one problem with that though, namely that Luffy probably does not know the name Kaidou and thus would not be that happy if he had heard his name.

abc1233
October 08, 2012, 04:30 PM
It's Kaido NOT big mam ( I believe big mam won't fight luffy, because I predict that her daughter is Lola from thriller bark arc) so, she will let luffy have Fisherman island.

Kaido has a connection to dr.vegapunk who is connected to CC and joker.v

Doesn't explain Luffy's reaction though when Law told him who he was after. Luffy would have almost certainly been confused had it been Kaidou, he doesn't exactly keep up with who is in power unless if he has had a direct exchange with them. I thought Lola was her daughter before seeing BM too, but now she just seems way too different to be Lola's mum, it's possible that if she is being drugged by CC's candies then that could be changing her too but otherwise I just don't see it. Then again Luffy has made friends with people who were shown in a bad light initially in the past so who knows.

Mr. Arashi
October 08, 2012, 05:23 PM
Did i said will love if it's Shanks the chosen by Law?

suraj5898
October 10, 2012, 05:30 AM
i dont think its shanks because luffy promise shanks that he will get/create stronger team then shank so when luffy go fight with shanks he will go with zoro & others and will not ask/get someone else help

Jorge D. Dragon
October 11, 2012, 07:27 AM
I believe the Yonkou that Law wanted to target was either Kaidou or Big Mom. The thing is that Big Mom was too obvious of a choice, especially since most of us expected it to be her at that point as she became Luffy's opponent, when he proclaimed Fishman Island his territory and showed disrespect to her in front of her crew and also if the bomb inside Tamatebako explodes, then there will be another reason for her to fight Luffy, but I doubt Oda will go this way. Of course he can, but mostly he tries to surprise us and give something different from what readers expect from him, so my bet is on Kaidou for now.:)
Anyways, I doubt it would end after just one or two battles, since Kaidou or any other Yonkou should be a beast himself, not even talking about their respective crews and allied pirates.
As he is now Luffy can't take on Yonkou. He will need to take down Doflamingo and his crew first to grow up powerwise and experiense wise.

Cyrs
October 19, 2012, 02:14 AM
Big Mom is the most obvious choice, but who knows. I'd say in order of likelihood:

1. Big Mom
2. Black Beard
3. Kaidou
4. Shanks

I don't see Luffy fighting Shanks. And unless Law said something to Luffy to convince him that Kaidou's a really bad guy, I don't think Luffy would be at all interested in randomly picking a fight with Kaidou - that just doesn't fit Luffy's character at all.

The only two people I see Luffy agreeing to fight are Big Mom and Blackbeard. I don't think Law would be too keen on starting a fight with the infamous Blackbeard, and it seems a little soon for Luffy to face off against Blackbeard anyway. And since Luffy already wants to take out Big Mom, he would agree to fight her right away.

But One Piece is notoriously unpredictable, so who knows?

(I think the most likely "surprise" would be them targeting Blackbeard. Not full-on, but just messing up his plans or something.)

Smerten
October 23, 2012, 01:07 PM
Everything seemed to point towards Luffy fighting big mam, and suddenly Law appears to propose an alliance to take down a yonko, which Luffy gladly accepts. It's almost a given to be big mam. I think Kid, Scratchmen and Hawkins will team up to take down the one and only Kaido at around the same time. Shanks will be defeated eventually by Blackbeard, and that's how I guess the New World will be divided towards the end.

llaubacher
October 28, 2012, 07:13 AM
We can only judge based on Luffy´s reaction and Law´s intentions.

Blackbeard is out of question! He is gonna be taken out as last villain.

Luffy smiled! It could mean the target is Shanks! Luffy would want to show him how much has he grown up since they parted ways in Fuusha (Windmill) Village (whatever was the name) as well as to show him his crew.

Big Mam is already on Luffy´s "to do list" and I think if Law mentioned her then Luffy would show us some kind of SERIOUS expression.

Kaido comes in consideration only because I have not seen Law´s crew around, he even frowns when Luffy asks "where is that bear which was with you" or whatever. Thus, Law wants to get his vengeance on him. And Oda would show us the fourth and last one of the Yonkou´s group.

I don´t dare to guess which Yonkou is it going to be, however I would love to see Big Mam taken out because there is connection between StrawHats and her which is called LOLA. Her beating would also bring Luffy and the others amongst the strongest people in the New World (IMO). Yet, Luffy and his crew has not shown us much since the TimeSkip, they´re saving their best for some big shots in New World. Currently it might be Doflamingo´s crew, but who knows.. Anyway their 100% will be shown at Yonkou´s crew (IMO)!!!

Care to write your opinions! Thanks.

Zasz
October 28, 2012, 10:06 AM
Whoa, didn't notice this topic. LOL
In any case I think that Law is trying to take down Shanks.
I know that Luffy's reaction, if that's the case, hasn't been exagerated, but I don't see any other ways.
Yonkou hasn't been introduced properly, Big Mam just appeared, thus is not an option and I see BB like some kind of final boss.

Saint Markus
October 29, 2012, 10:08 PM
My guess is this, which Yonkou has the most to lose or is the current strongest. Since, Blackbeard was merely "labeled" by others as Yonkou, I'd have to put him out of Law's direction.

Most likely, it's Big Mam, because Luffy already knows about her and made declaration of war against her. Plus, I imagine, she's the oldest of all the Yonkou, and Law would want to take her out of the picture first. Especially since, Captain Kidd already made moves against her to the point where, she and her crew have lost money. And that's made them financially weak.

Kaidou or Red Shanks, I don't think, Law would wage a fight against them. After all, Law just wants to break the balance of the New World set up by the Yonkou. Plus, I imagine since he's Shichibukai, he has learned a great deal about "all" the Yonkou and this is why, he's making an alliance with Luffy.

Razh
November 03, 2012, 01:06 PM
Law is not dumb. Currently Big Mom seems to be the weakest of Yonkou. Kid already dared to challenged her, destroyed a couple of allied ships. Law is probably aware of that and wants to take advantage of it.
And it also makes sense in the plot progression. Why introduce a good part of the Yonkou crew and a bad captain just to make the plot take SH to another Yonkou? It would be like if SH went to Skypiea after Drum island and then came back to fight Crocodile.

And I'm sorry if this comes insulting to those that think it's Shanks, but - :teehee
Come on, Luffy likes to act dumb and carefree, but he's not that dumb. Nor is he a liar or a two-faced backstabber. He wouldn't go into alliance with Law, knowing that he'll betray him in the end because Shanks is his FRIEND.

Asarii
November 20, 2012, 08:27 PM
I forgot details from the Fishmen Arc so I voted for Blackbeard when Big Mom was also an option. I don't think the choice is Kaidou for the reason that we don't know much about him yet. (Although one could argue it's because Luffy doesn't know about him that he would be willing to go along with Law.)


And I'm sorry if this comes insulting to those that think it's Shanks, but - :teehee
Come on, Luffy likes to act dumb and carefree, but he's not that dumb. Nor is he a liar or a two-faced backstabber. He wouldn't go into alliance with Law, knowing that he'll betray him in the end because Shanks is his FRIEND.
I doubt it's Shanks either. When Law says that he wants to defeat a yonkou, I'm sure he implies killing one. No matter how much Luffy wants to surpass Shanks, I doubt he'd go that far. :blink

FaustXIII
November 23, 2012, 05:13 AM
http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/689/18

Big Mom!

Bepo was a victim of SMILE and that's the reason why he cutted his connections with Doflamingo

Doflamingo supplies SMILE to Big Mom

and then

Hmm

meepers4982
November 28, 2012, 06:12 AM
i doubt its shanks judging by luffy's amazing instinct even if law wanted to trick him and said it in a way that appealed to him i doubt hed comply. Id say big mam because eveything we've seen and been told so far it feels like its leading up to it like the big boss of this arc.

@X3d2yfaust:
i really like you're theory about bepo, if its true itd make sense for law to go after her as well.

M3J
November 29, 2012, 01:37 AM
I think Law wants to take down Kaido. Wasn't it said Doflamingo was working under Kaido?

Uriel
November 29, 2012, 10:31 AM
After the latest chapter and Law's speech being shown alongside Big Mom pic, I think He was aiming for her in the first place.

0Xellos
November 29, 2012, 12:42 PM
Well from this chapter, the gears seem to fit together perfectly. We've seen Pekoms and his weeeird zoan transformation, Law said there's a kou (yeah, using yonkou as a singular is weird :p) who made an army of SAD (synthetic animal DF, I guess) users; plus there's this little business Luffy has with BM. So either it's been very heavily implied that it's BM, or this troll has overcome Tobito.

Kaiten
November 29, 2012, 01:02 PM
After the latest chapter and Law's speech being shown alongside Big Mom pic, I think He was aiming for her in the first place.

If it were not already obvious, on the page you are referring to (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v60/c690/20.html) Oda seems to have tipped his hand. If anyone had not noticed, Big Mam is pictured above Law and next to Caesar on the left hand side of the page.

I also immediately thought of Pekom and his turtle transformation when CC revealed the secrets of "smile" to Luffy.

---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------


I think Law wants to take down Kaido. Wasn't it said Doflamingo was working under Kaido?

No, Doflamingo has never been said to work for anyone. Gecko Moria fought Kaido and lost, his entire crew killed in the process. Nothing has been said about Kaido since X Drake confronted one of his minions, before the time skip. (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c595/4.html)

Textmarker
December 03, 2012, 10:37 AM
I also take the last panel of the last chapter as a confirmation of Big Mam being the yonkou they are all after.

And it will just be badass if Law and Kidd are the big main brains of everything and are already having an alliance, and it will be just fuckin awesome to see Luffy, Law, Kidd, Apoo, Hawkins, Killer, Straw hats fight a huge army of smile manipulated zoan fruit users and finally also Big Mam herself.

brrr.... gives me freakin chills!!

Kaiten
December 03, 2012, 01:00 PM
Kid does not seem like the alliance type, Killer brokered the alliance (http://www.batoto.net/read/_/124872/one-piece_ch677_by_mangarule/4) with Hawkins and Appoo, an arrangement Kid seems only to agreed to grudgingly. A second simultaneous alliance might be a bridge too far for Kid to bear. Kid probably has his own agenda, he and his allies likely have their own target. I have long suspected that this saga will end with Luffy being proclaimed as a Yonkou, replacing the defeated and disgraced Big Mam. He and Law will maintain their alliance, with Law becoming Luffy's first fleet commander. I can not picture Kid in a subservient role, helping Luffy defeat a Yonkou. Instead, I expect he too will replace a Yonkou, probably Kaido. An alliance with Luffy and Law is not out of the question later, but not now. I don't think that would be a role best played by Kid.

FaustXIII
December 04, 2012, 12:36 AM
Wait Nami got the vivre card from Lola right (Thriller Bark)

Lola said her mother is strong pirate.
Lola and his companions are from the new world

If it is right that Lola's Mother was Big Mom

Then they already got Big Mom's Vivre Card!

Zoronoa Roro
December 05, 2012, 03:00 AM
Wait .... but what's with othee supernova like urouge. Just because He didn't get enough air time e shiuldnt just discredit them or undermine them.


Thry should be put Into equation

GomuGomu_Getsuga
December 05, 2012, 03:26 AM
I thought Law and Kid were already allied. If they aren't already then I don't see Kid joining up with the likes of Luffy, someone I think he would prefer to do battle against. If Kid is going after a different Yonkou then I will put my money on Kaido. Kaido is probably the reason he lost his arm since he is known for trashing rookies.

I would like the two Supernova alliances to join but as Kaiten-sama said, Kid doesn't seem like the type to be under someone. I would also like to see Luffy(or Law) vs Kid in the future.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Drake and Bonnie might join Luffy's alliance. Bonnie already had some encounters with Zoro :teehee and Drake just seems like they type of guy that would follow loyal/honorable people.

Kaiten
December 05, 2012, 06:22 PM
What reason is there to believe that Bonnie, Drake, and Urouge will join Law and Luffy's alliance? They have not made a single appearance since before the timeskip. And what does that have to do with this discussion anyway? The thread topic is "Which Yonkou does Law want to take down? "

GomuGomu_Getsuga
December 09, 2012, 01:51 PM
What reason is there to believe that Bonnie, Drake, and Urouge will join Law and Luffy's alliance? They have not made a single appearance since before the timeskip. And what does that have to do with this discussion anyway? The thread topic is "Which Yonkou does Law want to take down? "

Which is why I said I was going out on a limb. It's a long shot. I didn't say Urouge by the way. I've already commented on the topic and voted, its just another point.

Downanime00
January 01, 2013, 03:36 PM
We know that it can't be Shank or else Luffy wouldn't have agree with the alliance unless Law trick Luffy. The most logic would be big mam or kaidou but I think big mam is the best choice because everything is set up for that fight.

Ankit
January 06, 2013, 12:34 AM
Looks like the Yonkou that Law wants to take out his Big Mam. You can see her lips as Law goes on his monologue of the change that's coming. It'd also go conveniently with Luffy's interests in order to protect Fishman Island under his flag and not her's.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v60/c690/20.html

It seems like Doflamingo is just another step on Law's conquest to taking out Big Mam(or w/e Yonkou he wants to take out)

Ghorrah
January 07, 2013, 09:23 PM
I actually think it might be shanks. He wants luffy to be strong and luffy might have taken that to mean he needs to defeat shanks

BlackLeggedDragon
January 12, 2013, 01:04 PM
It is clearly Big Mam. She was already shown the be having a confrontation with Luffy, and the other three Yonkou make no sense. Blackbeard is the final villain, Shanks and Luffy won't fight, and Kaido hasn't been even introduced into the story yet.

jaymizzo
January 12, 2013, 01:27 PM
I actually think it might be shanks. He wants luffy to be strong and luffy might have taken that to mean he needs to defeat shanks

Shanks will spank them all over the place and im sure Luffy and Law know that very well. I dont think any Rookie would be dumb enough to try and take on Shanks or Blackbeard in just 2 Years... Madness.

Knowing Oda it probably could turn out to be Shanks, but il go with the logical choice of it being Big Mam. I dont understand who gets the title Yonkou after, Luffy or Law? Say they both defeat her...

0Xellos
January 12, 2013, 05:55 PM
Knowing Oda it probably could turn out to be Shanks, but il go with the logical choice of it being Big Mam. I dont understand who gets the title Yonkou after, Luffy or Law? Say they both defeat her...

When WB died, BB didn't get his post immediately - he needed much more feats. Similarly, the one who gets more feats after beating (probably) BM will get the Yonkou title... I guess. But it definitely doesn't work like 'you beat a Yonkou, you take the title'. Empty seats are fine.

UnknownMugiwara
January 13, 2013, 12:07 PM
Knowing Oda it probably could turn out to be Shanks, but il go with the logical choice of it being Big Mam. I dont understand who gets the title Yonkou after, Luffy or Law? Say they both defeat her...

One does not simply become a Yonkou by just defeating one. The yonkou's has a lot of turf in the NW, and you would have to claim most of the former Yonkou's turf in order to become the next one.
But I think it'll be one of the rookies that'll take the place and judging by where we are in the story I'd say it's Law, Kidd, Hawinks or Apoo, I don't see Luffy becoming one, but I do see him keep Fishman Island under his control.

Zehahaha
January 13, 2013, 05:10 PM
When WB died, BB didn't get his post immediately - he needed much more feats. Similarly, the one who gets more feats after beating (probably) BM will get the Yonkou title... I guess. But it definitely doesn't work like 'you beat a Yonkou, you take the title'. Empty seats are fine.

He just conquered the islands that were under WB's control and that's it, apparently to be considered Yonko : territories, allies, although we don't know if Shanks is the same... I mean the guy doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who's after territories, but he may keep under his control some islands he liked/enjoyed who knows

Kaiten
January 13, 2013, 08:52 PM
Shanks will spank them all over the place and im sure Luffy and Law know that very well. I dont think any Rookie would be dumb enough to try and take on Shanks or Blackbeard in just 2 Years... Madness.

Knowing Oda it probably could turn out to be Shanks, but il go with the logical choice of it being Big Mam. I dont understand who gets the title Yonkou after, Luffy or Law? Say they both defeat her...

Law is just a supporting character. Elevating Law to Yonkou would not move the story forward, elevating Luffy to Yonkou would.


When WB died, BB didn't get his post immediately - he needed much more feats. Similarly, the one who gets more feats after beating (probably) BM will get the Yonkou title... I guess. But it definitely doesn't work like 'you beat a Yonkou, you take the title'. Empty seats are fine.

That's not how storytelling works :yelling

Luffy being proclaimed a Yonkou is an important, high impact, series changing event. An event with such wide ranging implications must happen at the right time, in order to maximize it's impact. Luffy being proclaimed a Yonkou after defeating a Yonkou would be such a moment. The events leading to his being proclaimed a power would be fresh in the audiences mind, and the proclamation would be most relevant to current events. It would be anticlimactic if the proclamation were to wait for some later date, revealed as news during some unrelated arc, and otherwise irrelevant to the story. The audience would have less of a reason to care, the proclamation would be reduced near to trivia, like bounties.

From audience perspective, it did not take long at all for Blackbeard to be proclaimed a Yonkou. Jinbe broke the news near the end of the Fishman Island arc, only one arc after Whitebeard had died. The situation was also quite different in that Blackbeard was no longer a featured character, it may be years before he makes another significant appearance. This was information relevant to the situation in the New World, and important for Luffy to know before entering the sea. That is why Oda chose that exact moment to reveal Blackbeard's new position. Their different situations should also be factored in. Whitebeard died before Blackbeard entered the New World. Blackbeard still had made no name there. He also did not defeat Whitebeard, only attacked him after he was mortally wounded by the Marine. Luffy will have already saved Fishman Island from Hodi Jones, disrupted the SAD trade at Punk Hazard, and defeated Doflamingo before ever engaging the Big Mam pirates. Fishman Island will also have proclaimed him their protector, giving him at least one allied island.

ukimix
January 13, 2013, 09:39 PM
IMO, Luffy being a Yonkou could cautivate an audience that doesn't understand the character of Luffy, and in the end the whole manga. The story doesn't work that way neither. Luffy is not after a Yonkou position, and if he would be proclamed a Yonkou, the best chapter following that event would be Luffy forgetting about it or showing that that is completely irrelevant to his enterprise. He wants to be the King of Pirates, and he is not a tactician like Law or Doflamingo who could think like: "first I will get this and then that will make me able to get that...". He's just going for what is exiting to him, and in the end for the One Piece (remember the way he chose to arrive to Punk Hazard). That really would be so One Piece and so Luffy.

Kaiten
January 13, 2013, 11:17 PM
Would you care to explain what you mean by "don't understand the character"? One Piece is a children's comic, and not terribly complicated. This is not exactly Proust. I do think it quite rude to say that anyone who thinks Luffy will become a Yonkou has little understanding of his character. Not only would that be untrue, but demonstrate an almost total lack of understanding for everything that has happened since Hodi Jones was defeated.

Luffy does not have to seek to become a Yonkou, or make plans. Quite the opposite. His path towards the position seems to be following the usual haphazard path. He declared war on Big Mam with little thought ofthe consequences, proclaimed himself protector of Fishman Island, stumbled upon Punk Hazard, where he was reunited with Law, forming an alliance to defeat one of the Yonkou. Without any plans, Luffy has triggered a series of events that will lead him to fight, and defeat one of the Yonkou. All by whim, all with a total disregard for planning and tactics. The title of Yonkou seems to be given by popular acclaim. Luffy need not care whether he gets the title or not, it will simply be given to him. Luffy is not so dumb as to forget something as important as becoming a Yonkou. Nor will forgetting be possible. After becoming a Yonkou the world will not let him forget.

Since entering the Grand Line, the entire manga has practically been about the rapid rise in power, prestige, and notoriety of the Straw Hats. First, as unknowns, they defeated a Shichibukai. They then invaded Enes Lobby, defeated a Buster Call, and destroyed the island of justice. Next they defeated a second Shichibukai. Luffy then assaulted a Tenryuubito. He then successfully led a jail break from Ines Lobby, before fighting in the War. In the New World, why would the story suddenly revert to East Blue? He's already challenged Big Mam, and allied with Law to defeat a Yonkou. He will soon defeat Doflamingo, raising his prestige even before he fights Big Mam. Wouldn't the only logical culmination of all this plot development be for Luffy to be proclaimed a Yonkou himself, whether he cares or not? The story could then progress with Luffy now longer the challenger, but a power himself.

ukimix
January 13, 2013, 11:40 PM
I don't think that it will be a logical culmination of all that plot development for Luffy to be a Yonkou. First, since he wants to be the Pirate King, at least being a Yonkou could be a continuation, not a culmination. Besides of it, I don't think it's necesary for him to be a Yonkou in order to become the King of Pirates. Excuse me but the whole actions he has done (no need to recall all of them) forms a way to become a Pirate King: that is the only logical culmination.

About 'don't understand the character': well, Luffy wants meat, fun, to become the Pirate King, to know by his own means what is the One Piece, and his nakamas safe and happy... if I remember well. To make of a character like that a Yonkou would be a menor event in his development nor a major as you pointed, because it simply doesn't fit his goals and his actions. And yes, I think Luffy could forget the very next day that he has been proclemad a Yonkou; but not because of his stupidity, (If I would think that I wouldn't understand his character), but because that is not important to him.

Razh
January 14, 2013, 05:25 AM
He can't be considered an emperor if he's not actually ruling a significant part of New World. To the pont where WG is scared when Sunny Go decides to move toward any of the other Yonkou. Perhaps it's going to happen eventually. I mean people from different islands could acknowledge Luffy as their protector even if he doesn't care about any of that and with many allies like that, WG could really consider him an emperor, but it can't happen any time soon.

Just look at Blackbeard. It's been 2 years and even though many regard him as emperor, WG still hasn't acknowledged him.

0Xellos
January 14, 2013, 11:51 AM
I think we get a pretty clear example of how Luffy'd treat the title of Yonkou if he ever got one. Look at how he treats his bounties now. I don't remember Luffy ever bragging about how big his bounty is, unlike other pirates. If someone started to call him one of Yonkou, he'd probably act the same way towards that title :D

Kaiten
January 14, 2013, 07:49 PM
He can't be considered an emperor if he's not actually ruling a significant part of New World. To the pont where WG is scared when Sunny Go decides to move toward any of the other Yonkou. Perhaps it's going to happen eventually. I mean people from different islands could acknowledge Luffy as their protector even if he doesn't care about any of that and with many allies like that, WG could really consider him an emperor, but it can't happen any time soon.

Luffy has already claimed Fishman Island, and they have already agreed once he has freed them of Big Mam they will fly his flag. Luffy has territory. Isn't it possible that before fighting Big Mam, more islands become allies of Luffy. If she treats other islands the way she treated FI, maybe they look to Luffy as savior, flying his jolly roger after her defeat.

I'm not sure what your definition of ruling territory is, but so far, no Yonkou has been shown to have any political power. Both Whitebeard and Big Mam have so far been shown to act as allies, agreeing to protect islands. Whitebeard asks only for friendship, Mam wanted payment. It was shown, right after the timeskip, what happens to islands not protected by Yonkou. Whitebeards former territory was immediately overrun by pirates. That is why Fishman Island (and presumably most islands) ally with Yonkou. Jinbe explains it pretty well here[/ur], when he tells Ace the story of how FI came to ally themselves with Whitebeard. It would be horribly wrong though, to assume that the Yonkou actually govern islands. If I am wrong please link to pages demonstrating that Yonkou take direct political control of their territory.


Just look at Blackbeard. It's been 2 years and even though many regard him as emperor, WG still hasn't acknowledged him.

What do you actually base this on? Jinbe has already[url=http://www.batoto.net/read/_/121334/one-piece_v66_ch650_by_mangarule/8]said (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v54/c529/4.html) Blackbeard is now regarded as one of the Yonkou, and that was the end of it. No more mention has been made. Could you link to whatever led you to believe the World Government does not regard him as a Yonkou? No one from the World Government has even appeared since before the timeskip. Furthermore, why would Oda give fraudulent information to the audience? Jinbe said Blackbeard is a Yonkou, why wouldn't he be a Yonkou?


I think we get a pretty clear example of how Luffy'd treat the title of Yonkou if he ever got one. Look at how he treats his bounties now. I don't remember Luffy ever bragging about how big his bounty is, unlike other pirates. If someone started to call him one of Yonkou, he'd probably act the same way towards that title :D

Ah, memory is such a funny thing. Sometimes it fails us when we need it most. After Arlong Park, Luffy was delighted to see his first bounty (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v12/c096/9.html). He was almost as excited when his bounty was raised (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v45/c435/17.html) after Enes Lobby. Clearly Luffy does care about how his bounty. He may well take pride in being called one of the Yonkou, just like he was excited about his bounty.

0Xellos
January 15, 2013, 04:07 PM
Ah, memory is such a funny thing. Sometimes it fails us when we need it most. After Arlong Park, Luffy was delighted to see his first bounty (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v12/c096/9.html). He was almost as excited when his bounty was raised (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v45/c435/17.html) after Enes Lobby. Clearly Luffy does care about how his bounty. He may well take pride in being called one of the Yonkou, just like he was excited about his bounty.

Luffy wants to become a great, famous pirate, and higher bounty just shows he's successful, that's why he's happy about it. I'm not saying Luffy doesn't care about it, but that he doesn't do things for having his bounty increased, but just whatever he wants to do (namely protect his friends), and similarly, if he takes down a Yonkou, it's not so that he'd take his/her place, but because they're threatening ppl close to him. The fact that he has a high bounty itself isn't important, it's what the bounty represents - acknowledgement.

Chrixal
January 15, 2013, 06:37 PM
I personally think its Kaidou. I mean, from what we've seen, Kaidou is a violent and cruel person who, as quoted earlier on, 'would kick a man when he's down'. I'm certain whoever the yonko they seek is, it is undoubtedly the one Doflamingo has a partnership with. When you look at the facts, its obvious Shanks has no interest in an army of monsters nor does such a thing interest Big Mam. Blackbeard already has his crew and probably wouldn't want a large army under his control, leaving only Kaidou behind.

Also, now that the Yonko's SAD is running dry, they're going to get pretty annoyed to say the least. If they were to find out that Law has the only means of producing SAD, they'll probably be at Law's mercy, so it makes sense to go for that one.

But hey. That's just my theory.

0Xellos
January 15, 2013, 06:55 PM
I personally think its Kaidou. I mean, from what we've seen, Kaidou is a violent and cruel person who, as quoted earlier on, 'would kick a man when he's down'. I'm certain whoever the yonko they seek is, it is undoubtedly the one Doflamingo has a partnership with. When you look at the facts, its obvious Shanks has no interest in an army of monsters nor does such a thing interest Big Mam. Blackbeard already has his crew and probably wouldn't want a large army under his control, leaving only Kaidou behind.

Big Mom's crew member has a weirdass Zoan, which seems strangely connected to the army of monsters. And why would BM, the sweets-addicted lunatic, not be interested in an army of monsters?
The main argument against Kaidou is that there's no argument for Kaidou, since we know practically nothing about him (except being another ass). On the other hand, BM is the hot candidate because of her involvement in the story so far.

Chrixal
January 15, 2013, 07:22 PM
Yes, but we have also seen what Big Mam is like. Sweets are the only thing that seem to interest her. Something like domination of the seas serve to only give her more candy. Even then, she can get more goods without the need of an army and she knows that. Someone like her has no desire in any of that stuff.

0Xellos
January 16, 2013, 05:16 AM
Yes, but we have also seen what Big Mam is like. Sweets are the only thing that seem to interest her. Something like domination of the seas serve to only give her more candy. Even then, she can get more goods without the need of an army and she knows that. Someone like her has no desire in any of that stuff.

Come on. The most important thing maybe, but the only? There isn't a single person like that...
And she has a good reason to build up a stronger army. If she doesn't, then someone else will instead, take over her territory, kick her out of the seat and that wouldn't be good.

alisdfd
February 01, 2013, 05:18 PM
loooooool indeed case closed KAIDOU IS THE ONE - the first to go down but i still think BIg Mama will come down before Kaidou goes down

MiyamotoMusashi
February 01, 2013, 05:25 PM
loooooool indeed case closed KAIDOU IS THE ONE - the first to go down but i still think BIg Mama will come down before Kaidou goes down

Could be that Kaidou will be defeated with a plan first, so that Luffy does not have to fight him 1vs1 or only has to fight him in a weakened state and then Luffy fights BM in 1vs1 in a "fair" fight, depends on whether Oda would go down that road or not

mattiaildivino
March 03, 2013, 10:36 AM
@Kaiten, since you said that a business alliance won't take down an emperor,and that only friendship will do that,you are hinting that Kidd,Hawkins and apoo will fail,aren't you? This is contradictory to what you said some days ago about Kidd 's victory succeeding in defeating bm is a priority to let jinbe join the SHs. Imo,it'd be better if they failed,as out of 2 pirate alliances,one has to fail,whereas the other one must succeed.

Kaiten
March 03, 2013, 11:08 AM
@Kaiten, since you said that a business alliance won't take down an emperor,and that only friendship will do that,you are hinting that Kidd,Hawkins and apoo will fail,aren't you? This is contradictory to what you said some days ago about Kidd 's victory succeeding in defeating bm is a priority to let jinbe join the SHs. Imo,it'd be better if they failed,as out of 2 pirate alliances,one has to fail,whereas the other one must succeed.

What makes you think that Kid, Hawkins, and Apoo won't come to respect each other, eventually becoming friends, in their own belligerent way? Just because their alliance is stormy now does not mean relationships can not grow and evolve. They are more rambunctious people than Law and Luffy, respect and friendship might not be as obvious, but it is possible. Many, many things can happen between now, and then. We don't even yet know when then is. The possibility exists for their alliance evolving into something more stable, and strong, over time.

My belief is that Law's speech (Many, many things can happen between now, and then. We don't even yet know when then is. ) foreshadowed what was to come in the New World. The new generation will sweep away the old, and the world they built. Someone will defeat Mam, and soon. I don't think it will be Luffy. No matter what he said, I think defeating three Yonkou (I include Teach) is overkill. If it is Kid, that creates a good rivalry for Luffy. Kid could also be targeting Kaido, not Big Mam. I won't deny that possibility. I think it adds more to the story though if Kid is targeting Mam. Maybe his plan is more straightforward, and less successful, than Law's, triggering an all out war, dragging Luffy into the confrontation.

mattiaildivino
March 03, 2013, 03:17 PM
What makes you think that Kid, Hawkins, and Apoo won't come to respect each other, eventually becoming friends, in their own belligerent way? Just because their alliance is stormy now does not mean relationships can not grow and evolve. They are more rambunctious people than Law and Luffy, respect and friendship might not be as obvious, but it is possible. Many, many things can happen between now, and then. We don't even yet know when then is. The possibility exists for their alliance evolving into something more stable, and strong, over time.

My belief is that Law's speech (Many, many things can happen between now, and then. We don't even yet know when then is. ) foreshadowed what was to come in the New World. The new generation will sweep away the old, and the world they built. Someone will defeat Mam, and soon. I don't think it will be Luffy. No matter what he said, I think defeating three Yonkou (I include Teach) is overkill. If it is Kid, that creates a good rivalry for Luffy. Kid could also be targeting Kaido, not Big Mam. I won't deny that possibility. I think it adds more to the story though if Kid is targeting Mam. Maybe his plan is more straightforward, and less successful, than Law's, triggering an all out war, dragging Luffy into the confrontation.

uhm,I don't think they will end up becoming friends,they wouldn't even have made the alliance if it hadn't been for killer who stopped them. about the overkill thing,it's also true that the 4 emperors don't have to fall either: what if luffy became as strong as one of them,forcing the world to acknowledge a fifth one,who becomes the pirate king? :derp . well,I know that at least one of them will be defeated,and it will likely be kaido. big mam won't fight luffy,imo,because of Laura. but I like your idea of kidd becoming luffy's rival,that is an emperor. (but this would make luffy fight another emperor,isn't it overkill as well?)

Kaiten
March 03, 2013, 04:03 PM
Who's Laura :?bunny

If Kid replaces Mam, then Law's speech becomes important foreshadowing, not just bragging. Three of the Yonkou will be from the Worst Generation. Only Shanks will be left from the old generation. My guess he is that he never will have to be defeated. He told Luffy that they would meet again once he was a "great pirate". I don't think that will be until near the end of the manga, during the final saga, before sailing for Raftel. At that point Shanks steps aside, forsaking his status, and agreeing to help Luffy defeat the Blackbeard Pirates. There might be a short fight, to allow Shanks to test Luffy's strength. Shanks too has a grudge against Teach. If near the end of the series he judges Luffy a worthy successor to Roger, I can imagine him willingly bowing to Luffy. That, to me, really would bring the manga full circle.

My thinking is that Luffy and Kid become the next Roger and Whitebeard. They will become rivals, and sometimes fight, but Kid will never become a full blown enemy. There may be an arc where Kid is the enemy, but another where they fight side by side, like they did at Sabaody. Luffy never will defeat Kid, at least in the sense that he defeated Crocodile or Enel. By manga's end, Kid will be reckoned second only to Luffy, the next Pirate King.

Becoming Pirate King does not really factor into this discussion. That is the end of the journey. To get there, the Strawhats must successfully navigate the New World. The Yonkou are an essential part of the New World. Dealing with them will be a necessary part of becoming Pirate King. At this point in the story, if one is defeated, a new one probably will be proclaimed. It also would make sense if the old Yonkou are swept away. Whitebeard already fell, replaced by Teach. Kaido is the target of Law and Luffy. Kid too is targeting a Yonkou. That was not just empty talk. It will eventually be an important factor in the story. Sooner, rather than later, in my opinion. I think Mam and Kaido will be defeated early, allowing the New World to be about the rise of Luffy's generation.

danzouismadara
March 03, 2013, 07:14 PM
I think a lot of people are taking the yonkou lightly lol I think luffy's alliance and kids alliance will both be defeated easily, in order to force them to join each other to knock out the yonkou individually.

karamm
October 16, 2013, 01:49 AM
What connection is there between Punk Hazard and a Yonkou? Before the accident Punk Hazard was Vegapunk's weapon and drug development facility. Caesar was a former colleague of Vegapunk, and chemical weapons expert at Punk Hazard. Law did not go to Punk Hazard because it is a Yonkou's territory, or has some connection to a Yonkou. The island is abandoned, a wasteland cordoned off by the government. Caesar returned to continue his experiments, complete a human gigantism serum, and prove he is a greater scientist than Vegapunk. Joker is a marine at G-5 covering for Caesar, hiding kidnapped children reports from the public. There is no reason to believe he has a connection to the Yonkou. In the manga he has only been referenced in connection to the Marines. Vegapunk's research notes were left behind at Punk Hazard, the reason behind Law's presence. He is not there to challenge a Yonkou, he is there to find a weapon, the "sleeping power" he can use to challenge a Yonkou. There is NO CONNECTION between Punk Hazard, Caesar, Joker,and a Yonkou. None.

Looking back at this, I really am amazed by how spot on my guess/analysis was.

FaustXIII
October 16, 2013, 07:50 AM
My thinking is that Luffy and Kid become the next Roger and Whitebeard. They will become rivals

IIRC Golden Lion Shiki is Roger's original rival, not Whitebeard.

Crazytype
October 17, 2013, 08:38 AM
IIRC Golden Lion Shiki is Roger's original rival, not Whitebeard.

But that is added canon to sell movie tickets, because the story was made by Oda now. Whitebeard is still the main rival of Gol D. Roger from my perspective.