PDA

View Full Version : Spoiler The Use of Magic and All Things Related. (May contain spoilers)



ghostexiled
August 11, 2012, 03:52 PM
This is for anyone that wishes to debate their thoughts on how magic in Fairy Tail is used, attained, improved or even lost.

This will also serve as a way for members to compare the magic usage of characters to other characters.

Examples would be:

"Mirajana is stronger than Gray because of..." or "Gray is better for fighting than Mirajana because..."

"One type of spell has a power limit because..." or "Every spell can continue to become stronger because..."

"Training is better than 2nd container because..." or "Training and 2nd container equal the same because..."

DO NOT use this thread to bash or flame characters... such posts will be deleted and depending on the wording of the post made, the member will receive a warning or worse.

Thanks and play nice! :)

Edelheld
August 12, 2012, 04:48 PM
The case is: she have total control over her power now, she fights whenever she wants.
I honestly don't know why it is difficult to see this.
Is different from when she fought the Freed and she went into a State of fury.
Now in the tournament, she was calm, joyful, having a modeling contest with her rival and poofff Satan Soul being released.
And what exactly made you believe that she has total control over her power now? She uses it freely but that doesn't mean she can use it good enough to return to her peak power. She is strong but not as strong as she was once before. You may put your hopes on 3 months of training but that's just a speculation for now.
I honestly don't know why it is difficult to see that now Mira is as strong as Gray. She exceeds him in offense and speed(and boobies) and loses in everything else.
As they both progress they will be on roughly same power level from now on.

Olho07
August 12, 2012, 06:12 PM
Well... this is endless.

No matter how much debate, I will not change my view that her power has not abated, just was no longer able to control it. And she got stronger with the workout. The gap between the two has not decreased.

And you always will find that Gray grew enough that his spells it take effect in Mirajane.

Freid
August 12, 2012, 08:56 PM
There's absolutely no reason to assume that Mira's not as strong as she once was. No reason at all. She suffered some trauma and now she's fairy tail's resident hippy. But that's it. The only lasting effect of her trauma was her change in personality. Has there been anything that suggests that it physically weakened her to this day? Some things are just meant to be taken at face value. We were shown that she's recovered her magical power but people are making it a bigger deal than even Mashima himself made it. The fight with Fried was meant to signify the return of her powers and ever since then, we've had her act as one of the S-class mages that were meant to stop S-class potentials from advancing in the test, and Makarov himself included her in the dream team that he thought would guarantee fairy tail a win in the great magic games.

Honestly, the Gray vs Mirajane comparison is a joke. I read stuff like, 'Gray wins because duh, he's more versatile', as if versatility wins fights by default or something. We already have offence oriented mages like Natsu and Laxus who can overwhelm their opponents with sheer magical power. Mirajane was and still is a mage as powerful as Erza, only not as blessed with plot significance.

ILikeSleeping
August 13, 2012, 01:22 AM
I shall now attempt (and fail) to sort out the power levels of some of the characters in Fairy Tail:

So....That Ichiya...am I the only one still confused as to how strong he is? The guy couldn't even run a race without going down from exhaustion yet once he got serious he took down Bacchus and the other guy in just one punch. Bacchus is supposed to be as strong as Erza. And if Erza is at the level of the Ten Holy Saints, that easily puts Ichiya at the top right next to Makarov or at least Gildartz. I guess Ichiya is supposed to be the strongest person in Blue Pegasus, so his level of power would only make sense because if he was any weaker, then there would be no way for Blue Pegasus to be one of the top guilds...

And also, assuming that the levels of the top 5 Sabertooth members are relatively consistent and being that wasn't it said that Sting and Rogue were the most powerful of the five since they were the Twin Dragons and all. If Orga was able to get above a 3000 in the MPF, then both Sting and Rogue would be about the same level at least right? Okay so if Natsu and Gajeel were practically mopping the floor with those two without even trying, that would put Natsu and Gajeel several levels above them. I would gander to say that currently, Natsu and Gajeel are 2-3 times as powerful as those 2. This would put them at the level of Jura who got above an 8000 at the MPF. And if Makarov remarked that Jura now rivaled Gildartz in power, this would technically put Natsu and Gajeel right at Gildartz's level.

Now assuming that, Erza and Laxus (Or at least Laxus) is stronger than either Natsu or Gajeel, this would put Laxus above Gildartz...Making Laxus the most powerful person in the guild next to Makarov.

Now if Laxus was easily able to manhandle the 5 top members of Raven Tail including his own father, this puts the entirety of Raven Tail's main fighting force at about........................Max's level......Since he's about as powerful as pre-second origin Natsu.

Now if Ichiya is above Bacchus who Erza even admitted is at her level, and she herself is at least a bit above Natsu (Speculation) and is under Laxus. And the relative ease that Ichiya had when taking down Bacchus, I have to say that this brings Ichiya above Laxus. Seeing as how Laxus would need to be also be able to take down Erza in one punch (which I definitely can't see happening) in order to be on par with Ichiya. This definitely puts Ichiya at or perhaps even above Makarov.

Conclusion: WTF powerlevels.

Conclusion #2: Ichiya is the most OP person in Fairy Tail :gwah

Conclusion #3: Ichiya vs. Acnologia GOGOGO :s

Edelheld
August 13, 2012, 10:46 AM
...
No matter how much debate, I will not change my view that her power has not abated, just was no longer able to control it. And she got stronger with the workout. The gap between the two has not decreased.
...
And when exactly she got full control over it? Fighting Fried in crazy mode is "able to control" for you? Or when she was knocked out by a single punch fighting Elfman and Eva is "able to control" for you? Or when fighting Azuma she did absolutely no harm to him is "able to control" for you? Your view makes her a loser even at maximum power and full control. At least, definitely weaker than Gray(who won Ultear, btw). Does her powers suck so hard? With those lame powers she got s-class? I definitely hope it's not her full power and she will progress very fast.
And if you actually meant that she regained her full control in her 3 months of training then 1) what exactly in manga made you believe so?; and 2) Gray had few years to catch up with her power level.
You say it's endless but I hope you still got some new information and saw Mira in some new light so it all was fruitful =)


1)There's absolutely no reason to assume that Mira's not as strong as she once was. No reason at all.
2) Has there been anything that suggests that it physically weakened her to this day? Some things are just meant to be taken at face value.
3) The fight with Fried was meant to signify the return of her powers and ever since then, we've had her act as one of the S-class mages...
4) and Makarov himself included her in the dream team that he thought would guarantee fairy tail a win in the great magic games.
5) Honestly, the Gray vs Mirajane comparison is a joke. I read stuff like, 'Gray wins because duh, he's more versatile', as if versatility wins fights by default or something. We already have offence oriented mages like Natsu and Laxus who can overwhelm their opponents with sheer magical power. Mirajane was and still is a mage as powerful as Erza, only not as blessed with plot significance.
1) And there's absolutely no reason to assume that Mira's as strong as she once was. No reason at all. Just your wishful thinking.
2) I answered on that to Olho07 above.
3) The fight with Fried is her nightmare come true. We were shown the strength and terror of her power. I already answered above on her power level.
4) In English translation it was like "Mira is a nice choice, too".
5) Honestly, the Gray vs Mirajane comparison is a joke. I read stuff like "Mira will mop the floor with Gray", "Mira is a s-class mage", "Mira was Erza's rival", as if her past self somehow is absolutely the same as her present self. Even if Erza had YEARS to overpower Mira you still say that Mira is as strong as Erza. It's just ridiculous how you overpower Mira. You ignore that she loses and try to justify your wishful thinking with Mira's "plot insignificance" while manga is the only true source of information unlike people's assumptions.
Of course, in my opinion they are very close in power level now, Gray wins only thanks to the Mira's lack of will to fight(mostly) and better recent battle and team-up experience.


I shall now attempt (and fail) to sort out the power levels of some of the characters in Fairy Tail:
...
Conclusion: WTF powerlevels.

Conclusion #2: Ichiya is the most OP person in Fairy Tail :gwah

Conclusion #3: Ichiya vs. Acnologia GOGOGO :s
Wild :gwah
You have 3 weak spots:
1) MPF is useful only as a measure of magical power. But that's not only thing needed to be victorious.
2) Bacchus was on par with Erza many years ago. Since then she progressed and Bacchus being a drunkard he is definitely only regressed.
ALCOHOL IS BAD FOR YOU, KIDS!!!
3) Natsu and Gajeel being 2-3 times stronger than Orga is too much. It might be as well 1,5 times stronger with almost same result but that would mean that they are almost half as strong as Jura so it puts them way below Guildarts and Laxus and Ichiya falls in that category too =)

Olho07
August 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
And when exactly she got full control over it? Fighting Fried in crazy mode is "able to control" for you? Or when she was knocked out by a single punch fighting Elfman and Eva is "able to control" for you? Or when fighting Azuma she did absolutely no harm to him is "able to control" for you? Your view makes her a loser even at maximum power and full control. At least, definitely weaker than Gray(who won Ultear, btw). Does her powers suck so hard? With those lame powers she got s-class? I definitely hope it's not her full power and she will progress very fast.
And if you actually meant that she regained her full control in her 3 months of training then 1) what exactly in manga made you believe so?; and 2) Gray had few years to catch up with her power level.
You say it's endless but I hope you still got some new information and saw Mira in some new light so it all was fruitful =)

The fact that she can transforms always
1- Vs Fried = before Lisanna's return. Mirajane still with trauma.
2- vs Elfman = Script needs. Mashima wanted Elfman and Eveegreen fighting Rustyrose
3- vs Azuma = http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v26/c220/13.html http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v26/c220/16.html She spent the entire fight concerned about Lisanna and with little power.
Even Erza almost lose to him.

Freid
August 13, 2012, 05:41 PM
And when exactly she got full control over it?

The question is why should we assume that she hasn't? Since Mira fought Fried, has Mashima once portrayed her as someone that still has trouble unleashing her power because of Lisanna's death? Wasn't Elfman also affected by the same thing? Funnily enough, once he released his power against the element 4 guy, he was since able to fully transform and use his full power. So why should it be different for Mirajane? Mashima has made it really simple for us. He doesn't overplay things like trauma unnecessarily, so stop making it more complicated than it is. He has no reason to make Mira weaker than she used to be. He used the fight against Fried to show that Mira no longer has a seal on her powers and has only reinforced that various times. He has never shown anything that contradicts what he showed in the fight against Fried which was that she's got her full powers back. Nonsense like she can't control it cannot be proved and only sounds like a desperate attempt to dump her with some unjustified weakness. Just call a spade a spade and take it how Mashima has shown it.

Mashima does a fine job justifying Mira's losses himself. Mira lost to Elfman and Evergreen and it was later explained that she didn't lose in a battle of power; she simply got caught off guard. Mira just hasn't got the battle mentality that she used to have. It doesn't mean that she's physically weaker. We also found out just a few weeks ago that Mira has a stronger form than the one she used against Azuma, which means she wasn't using her full power against him and that can be explained by her simply being low on magical power as she said during the fight. That form is one that Erza and Laxus respected and as far as consistency is concerned, only in an alternate universe would the Gray that we know be able to stand a hairs-breadth of a chance against it.

Also, how Makarov said he would have picked Mira is irrelevant. It's just difference ways of saying the same thing and doesn't change anything at all. The point remains that Mashima made it a point to put Mira's name in a team that Makarov believes can guarantee them a win in the great magic games. If Mashima himself still wants us to see that Mira is a mage in the same class as Laxus and Gildarts, then your whole 'Mira can't control her powers and is now weaker than gray' is meaningless and you're just interpreting the manga in a way that Mashima didn't intend.

crimsonlink310
August 13, 2012, 10:58 PM
I can't believe "Mira vs Gray is stronger" debate is still going on. I hope Mira fans realize that by the end of FT, Gray will have to become stronger as plot demands and will likely surpass Mira easily unless Mira suddenly becomes a major character. That or Mashima keeps power-ups consistent between guild members.

Mira is more powerful right now as a character based on what I have seen but she won't fight in the tournament. Simple as that really.

Schabrak
August 14, 2012, 08:44 AM
Oh Edelheld, your own bias towards her is hurting your argumentation. Natsu once lost to Eisenwald, so what? He got over it and so has Mirajane over her problems. Nothing matters if we can see how she is right now. (http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/279/18) She got the strongest demon soul, likely the maximum of her own favourite magic type, she beat Jenny, she looks different from before, appears strong and confident, what is there to doubt that she is still freaking strong or stronger than in her previous prime?

As an extra:

Get it now? That's not someone you can piss off.

I'm not gonna start any kind of comparison to Gray as that's senseless until we see him perform against Rufus. That one will shut up one side for real. :D

hoeru
August 14, 2012, 09:15 AM
Man, is this still going on? I agree on Mira being powerful. I agree on Mira having regained her full raw strength. But I disagree on Mira having successfully recovered from her trauma which changed her personality from a wild and feared brat called "Demon" to a kind and caring bartender. That isn't fixed Lisanna's sudden return and by three months of intensive training, and raw strength is useless if one's still mentally broken. Mira's fight against Azuma clearly showed that when she said, that she was about to run out of power.

Elf powering up is also based on Lisanna's death - instead of that being devastating to his self esteem he decided to become strong to protect Mira. Also a total change in his behaviour as he was the shy guy back in X778. And that Mira's power returned was based on the same principle that she almost snapped out because she was about to lose another sibling.

Mirajane herself agreed on Gray being in the team instead of her while saying that with Gray it's the Strongest Team of Fairy Tail. Her words, and I guess if there was any doubt within the guild, then there would have been Mira in the team, and not Gray.

It would have been a totally different thing if Lisanna was the victim instead of Lucy - then Mira would have had a much greater "payback" motivation than Gray had with his rivalty to Rufus which here simply adds perfectly onto the general rivalty of Fairy Tail to Saber Tooth.

Natsu<>Sting, as stated by Sting/Rogue
Gajeel<>Rogue, as stated by Sting/Rogue
Luxus<>Orga, as stated by Orga and implied by Luxus
Gray<>Rufus, as stated by Gray after being mocked by Rufus
Elsa<>Minerva, as implied by them being the strongest female guild members

Mirajane's rivalty in this tournament was first towards Elsa (http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/270/8) and then Jenny - and that was all cleared. And Mira doesn't have a counter part in Saber Tooth. (neither do Kana nor Wendy nor Lucy)

The whole tournament plot and Mira's background story are built to have Gray in the team instead of Mira.

Krono
August 14, 2012, 09:56 AM
As an extra:


Get it now? That's not someone you can piss off.

That's not really a remark on Mirajane's power. It's a remark on how she doesn't get mad, she gets even.

Also, her defeating Jenny was essentially a non-feat from the standpoint that we have no idea how strong Jenny actually is in a fight, we just know that she was Mirajane's chief competition in the pin-up girl field.

Schabrak
August 14, 2012, 12:02 PM
That's not really a remark on Mirajane's power. It's a remark on how she doesn't get mad, she gets even.

Also, her defeating Jenny was essentially a non-feat from the standpoint that we have no idea how strong Jenny actually is in a fight, we just know that she was Mirajane's chief competition in the pin-up girl field.
How about: It's both? edit: For comedic purposes they could always be put in such situation e.g. Nami hurting the strongest crew members for idiocy. But thanks for ignoring the longer and more important part of the post.

Even if she is not fully recovered, what from her appearance tells you that she's still so far back? Does Mirajane need to get back to her old ways and bring terror to her own guild to be accepted as fully recovered!? How about she is happy the way she is right now? She is a mix of both and that's good as it is, she doesn't need to change, she doesn't have to go through another round of support character development just to please you. Don't you read the manga and see happyness in her and her actions since they got back from the timeskip?

Krono
August 14, 2012, 12:48 PM
How about: It's both?

No. Neither Laxus or Gajeel is the sort to easily be intimidated by power, and Mirajane's show of power there was as I said, effectively a non-feat. For all we know Jenny's weaker than Grimoire Heart fodder, and Lucy could easily do the same stomping Mirajane dealt out. What Laxus was talking about was what Mirajane called an inappropriate side to herself. Aka, Mirajane realizing that Jenny was trying to set her up for a humiliation, and rather than get angry and call her out on it, or refuse the bet, she accepted so that she could humiliate her opponent instead.

WilliamK
August 14, 2012, 07:30 PM
Mirajane herself agreed on Gray being in the team instead of her while saying that with Gray it's the Strongest Team of Fairy Tail. Her words, and I guess if there was any doubt within the guild, then there would have been Mira in the team, and not Gray.

That's not proof at all. She done the same thing back at the start of Fairy Tail saying a team of Natsu, Erza and Gray would be the strongest team in Fairy Tail, which we all know isn't exactly correct as we could now put her, Erza, Laxus and Mystogan in a team and they'd definitely be stronger than the former.

Schabrak
August 15, 2012, 01:25 AM
What if they are truly the strongest team in terms of actual teamwork, which those others have never shown before. Laxus and Mystogan are mighty strong, but I can't imagine them working as a team, even less using unison raid or combined attacks.

WilliamK
August 15, 2012, 02:05 AM
What if they are truly the strongest team in terms of actual teamwork, which those others have never shown before. Laxus and Mystogan are mighty strong, but I can't imagine them working as a team, even less using unison raid or combined attacks.

When Mirajane said it, it was extremely clear they had absolutely no teamwork. Natsu and Gray? They always fought. Erza and anyone? No. They were scared of her. There was absolutely no justification of what was said before and really, even now, there's very little teamwork. Look at the Oracion Seis battle, their teamwork is majorly inferior. There's a reasons most battles become 1v1 over team battles. Heck, even most team battles they get split up. I can name a lot of examples.

There is no proof whatsoever Team Natsu has any exceptional teamwork over even say Shadow Gear, especially not back then.

hoeru
August 15, 2012, 03:04 AM
That's not proof at all.

But I've still made a point: There's no sign of "It would be better to have Mira instead of Gray!" attitude in the whole Fairy Tail guild at all.


She done the same thing back at the start of Fairy Tail saying a team of Natsu, Erza and Gray would be the strongest team in Fairy Tail,

Right. Back an the start of Fairy Tail. When Gajeel wasn't a Fairy Tail member, Luxus wasn't a team player at all, Mistgun was still in Earthland, and Elsa made Natsu join by promising him for a rematch.


which we all know isn't exactly correct as we could now put her, Erza, Laxus and Mystogan in a team and they'd definitely be stronger than the former.

<irony>And if Mavis gave Kana again Fairy Glitter and she'd join instead of Mira, it would have been an even stronger team.</irony>

No, seriously. Building a team is not about adding the nominal strongest mages onto a team. You have to consider things like motivation to go against the opponents, how good the players know each other, and whether they actually have some sympathy and respect for each other or not - especially if there's some kind of limit you can throw in a match.

And your team lacks of motivation to crush Saber Tooth therefore it can't be the Strongest Team to meet them in the tournament. Just look on the Fairies' reactions when Minerva ambushed Lucy. As I said later on:


It would have been a totally different thing if Lisanna was the victim instead of Lucy - then Mira would have had a much greater "payback" motivation than Gray had with his rivalty to Rufus which here simply adds perfectly onto the general rivalty of Fairy Tail to Saber Tooth.


When Mirajane said it, it was extremely clear they had absolutely no teamwork. Natsu and Gray? They always fought. Erza and anyone? No. They were scared of her.

Seriously. Being afraid of Elsa was comic relief. And those fights were rivalty in friendship, like scrapping with brothers. You're overthinking.


There was absolutely no justification of what was said before and really, even now, there's very little teamwork. Look at the Oracion Seis battle, their teamwork is majorly inferior. There's a reasons most battles become 1v1 over team battles. Heck, even most team battles they get split up. I can name a lot of examples.

A set of 1v1 battles doesn't deny the fact that they were teaming up and bringing down an opponent team together - it's only a team strategy to split up as the enemy was split up, too.

And the teamwork was "majorly inferior" in the Oracion Seis battle? Are you serious? Stepping in for the team comrade who's in a pinch is the frickin' BASICS of teamwork! And that happened like every second chapter of that arc...


There is no proof whatsoever Team Natsu has any exceptional teamwork over even say Shadow Gear, especially not back then.

There used to be more teams in Fairy Tail: Shadow Gear, Young Megadeath, Raijinshuu.

And the newly founded Elsa-Natsu-Gray-Lucy-Happy team was against Eisenwald stronger than the Raijinshuu against Ghoul Spirit as they still had to defeat Lullaby.

Olho07
August 15, 2012, 05:33 PM
Man, is this still going on? I agree on Mira being powerful. I agree on Mira having regained her full raw strength. But I disagree on Mira having successfully recovered from her trauma which changed her personality from a wild and feared brat called "Demon" to a kind and caring bartender. That isn't fixed Lisanna's sudden return and by three months of intensive training, and raw strength is useless if one's still mentally broken. Mira's fight against Azuma clearly showed that when she said, that she was about to run out of power.

1- Just because she didn't return to her former personality, doesn't mean that she han'tt recovered. At this point in the manga, if she changed, would be quite odd. In addition, she exchanges her face's expression when using the Satan Soul, compensating for the humorous human form.

2- About the fight against Azuma: the manga doesn't make it clear if she was weak because of her mentality. She had been battling Elfman that same day.

Edelheld
August 15, 2012, 05:44 PM
The fact that she can transforms always
1- Vs Fried = before Lisanna's return. Mirajane still with trauma.
2- vs Elfman = Script needs. Mashima wanted Elfman and Eveegreen fighting Rustyrose
3- vs Azuma = http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v26/c220/13.html http://mangafox.me/manga/fairy_tail/v26/c220/16.html She spent the entire fight concerned about Lisanna and with little power.
Even Erza almost lose to him.
Why didn't she used it in the war against Phantom Lord instead of mumbling about how useless she is?
1) In a berserk state she used it first time in years so that even made the blast of stored energy. After that she could use it freely.
2) Blaming the "plot power" to justify the weak point in your theory isn't a good idea.
3) Even forgetting her lack of mana she pulled her strongest punches and still did no damage to Azuma. There might be not much of them but they were strong and still useless. And Erza fought Azuma when he was empowered by the Tenrou Island power.



1) The question is why should we assume that she hasn't?
2) Since Mira fought Fried, has Mashima once portrayed her as someone that still has trouble unleashing her power because of Lisanna's death?
3) Wasn't Elfman also affected by the same thing?
4) He has never shown anything that contradicts what he showed in the fight against Fried which was that she's got her full powers back.
5) That form is one that Erza and Laxus respected and as far as consistency is concerned, only in an alternate universe would the Gray that we know be able to stand a hairs-breadth of a chance against it.
6) then your whole 'Mira can't control her powers and is now weaker than gray' is meaningless
1) The one implying a theory must give proof to it. So you assuming she got full control over her powers makes you the one who should prove it.
2) The problem is in your perception of her true power level she once had.
If you think that she already had her S-class power level on Tenrou Island than that means she with her top S-class power were not able to do more than others non S-class mages such as Gray, Elfman, Fried and Jubia and so she is equal in terms of power with them. Do you really see her being that weak?
I personally think her top S-class power were way stronger than the power level she had on Tenrou Island so she was progressing in it and still has.
3) It's simple. Mira is not Elfman. It's 2 different people in case you haven't noticed. Mira is way softer to begin with and they had absolutely different issues. Elfman's issue was that he isn't strong enough to control his power and to protect his sister so he became stronger in terms of "being a man".
Mira was strong enough but she hadn't enough heart's warmth so she became caring person to give all the love to people around because they can die too quickly to waste time with them on fighting.
4) No fight she had after the fight with Fried was as good as one with Fried, for example in terms of magical power (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/fairy_tail/v14/c118/7.html)
5) The very fact that they knew that form indicates she were able to use it before Lisanna's "death" and yet, if she regained full control over her powers after fight with Fried, even in dire times of the threat to her beloved sister's life she didn't used that form but instead waited for stupid pin-up contest to shine in full strength? That's very convincing.
I can understand that she could regain her past glory during those 3 months of training thought it's not yet fully proven in manga but the idea that she got full control over her powers after the fight with Fried is just nonsense to me.
6) I NEVER said that Gray is stronger than Mira. I said they are roughly equal now because Gray had few years to catch up with Mira while she did no progress at all.


... She got the strongest demon soul, likely the maximum of her own favourite magic type, she beat Jenny, she looks different from before, appears strong and confident, what is there to doubt that she is still freaking strong or stronger than in her previous prime?
I'm not gonna start any kind of comparison to Gray as that's senseless until we see him perform against Rufus. That one will shut up one side for real. :D
I NEVER said she is weaker than Gray in terms of power but now he is more suitable for the team. The very reason I started arguing was that "mop the floor" attitude or just recent "only in an alternate universe would the Gray that we know be able to stand a hairs-breadth of a chance against it" above. I'm not against Mira and I do not think she is weak. I'm against the idea that Gray is way weaker than her.
I doubt she became stronger than years ago because Laxus and Erza knew about that strongest demon soul of her so she had it before and just now regained her full strength. But to get 100% proof that "Mira is back" we need to see her fighting for real so let's hope we will get it in that arc =)


...Mirajane's rivalty in this tournament was first towards Elsa (http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/270/8) and then Jenny - and that was all cleared. ...
I forgot about that batsu game. I hope after the tournament we will see the result of that as FT B got more points than FT A =)

WilliamK
August 15, 2012, 06:52 PM
But I've still made a point: There's no sign of "It would be better to have Mira instead of Gray!" attitude in the whole Fairy Tail guild at all.



Right. Back an the start of Fairy Tail. When Gajeel wasn't a Fairy Tail member, Luxus wasn't a team player at all, Mistgun was still in Earthland, and Elsa made Natsu join by promising him for a rematch.



<irony>And if Mavis gave Kana again Fairy Glitter and she'd join instead of Mira, it would have been an even stronger team.</irony>

No, seriously. Building a team is not about adding the nominal strongest mages onto a team. You have to consider things like motivation to go against the opponents, how good the players know each other, and whether they actually have some sympathy and respect for each other or not - especially if there's some kind of limit you can throw in a match.

And your team lacks of motivation to crush Saber Tooth therefore it can't be the Strongest Team to meet them in the tournament. Just look on the Fairies' reactions when Minerva ambushed Lucy. As I said later on:





Seriously. Being afraid of Elsa was comic relief. And those fights were rivalty in friendship, like scrapping with brothers. You're overthinking.



A set of 1v1 battles doesn't deny the fact that they were teaming up and bringing down an opponent team together - it's only a team strategy to split up as the enemy was split up, too.

And the teamwork was "majorly inferior" in the Oracion Seis battle? Are you serious? Stepping in for the team comrade who's in a pinch is the frickin' BASICS of teamwork! And that happened like every second chapter of that arc...



There used to be more teams in Fairy Tail: Shadow Gear, Young Megadeath, Raijinshuu.

And the newly founded Elsa-Natsu-Gray-Lucy-Happy team was against Eisenwald stronger than the Raijinshuu against Ghoul Spirit as they still had to defeat Lullaby.

Despite quoting everything I said, you really didn't disagree with a lot. For example, the point that Mirajane (or Cana + Fairy Glitter) > Gray/Gajeel/Natsu is still ture amongst many, take away the minority.

The only thing I'll comment on:



And the teamwork was "majorly inferior" in the Oracion Seis battle? Are you serious? Stepping in for the team comrade who's in a pinch is the frickin' BASICS of teamwork! And that happened like every second chapter of that arc...

That doesn't mean it's good teamwork.

Look at the Oracion Seis taking on the entire light team. It's quite clear their teamwork was extremely superior. Then compare it to Natsu and Gajeel who barely even helped each other, but rather made it 2 1v1 fights.

It's pretty obvious Fairy Tail is known for its individual mage strength over any teamwork it may or may not possess.

Also, just because something is used for comic relief doesn't mean it's wrong. It's a fact that they were scared of Erza and if not for getting closer with her, likely still would.

Now, if you actually be serious about the debate instead of side-step everything with over generalizations that are irrelevant to the point, please say so. I'll make my case clear.

Mirajane is stronger than Gray. This is not Fairy Tail's strongest team. Now, if you have something to argue, feel free. Because any feats will easily be countered as Mirajane's are much better and frankly, all the Gray argument is making excuses.

The ONLY reason Gray was put in the battle is for plot. No more, no less. Not because it's logical, but rather, because simply Rufus vs Gray is more hyped up than Mirajane vs Rufus. Heck, why bully Gray? The same should very well apply to Natsu and Gajeel.

Schabrak
August 16, 2012, 06:23 PM
Mirajane is stronger than Gray. This is not Fairy Tail's strongest team. Now, if you have something to argue, feel free. Because any feats will easily be countered as Mirajane's are much better and frankly, all the Gray argument is making excuses.

The ONLY reason Gray was put in the battle is for plot. No more, no less. Not because it's logical, but rather, because simply Rufus vs Gray is more hyped up than Mirajane vs Rufus. Heck, why bully Gray? The same should very well apply to Natsu and Gajeel.
Why even argue if you already take your thoughts as fact? That's rather pointless. It's you who has to show that Grey, the guy who had not normal fight post-TS yet, is stronger/weaker than Mirajane, who had won against a reserve member, who's strength we don't know in the least. Ah, but you can't as we don't have enough evidence for either argument. Point is, you have nothing to compare their current states.

Not logical? Like using Dragon Slayers for Dragon Slayers, Lightning users against lightning users? It's logical for them to beat ST in each magic to give some proper comparison.

SerpentTailedAngel
August 16, 2012, 11:59 PM
There's actually no solid evidence that Mira is stronger. She did make S-Class first, but Gray could very well have taken that rank too if it weren't for GH showing up (in fact, considering that he and Loke could easily overpower Lucy/Cana, who were on their way to the grave, he had the best odds of passing) As Schabrak pointed out Mira was only seen dominating a reserve member since the arc started. Mira had 3 months of training, Gray had a magic boost that compensated for 7 years of training. If Gray's not as good as Mira he's certainly not so much weaker that it was stupid to place her in the final team rather than the guy who was really motivated to get back at a member of the rival guild.

WilliamK
August 17, 2012, 02:57 AM
Why even argue if you already take your thoughts as fact? That's rather pointless. It's you who has to show that Grey, the guy who had not normal fight post-TS yet, is stronger/weaker than Mirajane, who had won against a reserve member, who's strength we don't know in the least. Ah, but you can't as we don't have enough evidence for either argument. Point is, you have nothing to compare their current states.

Not logical? Like using Dragon Slayers for Dragon Slayers, Lightning users against lightning users? It's logical for them to beat ST in each magic to give some proper comparison.

That's pretty rude, contrary to what you think, though I do think it is extremely likely Mirajane is stronger than Gray, that is often open to subjectiveness.

Whether or not you accept this, Mirajane has shot off beams equal to that or likely stronger than Natsu's attack against Gemma with sheer ease, has a much larger diverse range and basically has combat advantages against Gray - especially when his hand-to-hand combat is inferior to that of Ultear's. Also it's clear from your post you're not actually going to try actually debating but rather simply repeat the possibility that Gray is stronger than Mirajane for absolutely no reason.

Then, may I ask why everyone is immaturely picking on Mirajane? Gray may have gotten stronger than Erza and even Laxus, however from what we've seen that is unfortunately not true - and of course, we haven't seen much. All you done is repeat what others have said, not exactly fruitful. The changes of Gray being stronger than Mirajane are that akin to Erza, not impossible, but extremely unlikely.


There's actually no solid evidence that Mira is stronger. She did make S-Class first, but Gray could very well have taken that rank too if it weren't for GH showing up (in fact, considering that he and Loke could easily overpower Lucy/Cana, who were on their way to the grave, he had the best odds of passing) As Schabrak pointed out Mira was only seen dominating a reserve member since the arc started. Mira had 3 months of training, Gray had a magic boost that compensated for 7 years of training. If Gray's not as good as Mira he's certainly not so much weaker that it was stupid to place her in the final team rather than the guy who was really motivated to get back at a member of the rival guild.

Um, you can go on about Gray being stronger and at an unknown strength, but that applies exactly to Mirajane.

Also, second origin does not compensate for 7 years at all. Going by Mangastreams translation, all it says is that the second origin would only compensate for the 3 months they missed out on - the time limit opportunity they had to train. Heck, even that is ambiguous. All that was said was "In other words, it will give a giant boost to your magical power, even more than any training you've done until now." (which evidently isn't much) and comparing it to another translation simply said it boosts their magical power! Anything outside these translations are just your imagination and shouldn't be taken into account for a debate.

It's clear that 3 months training can result in equal to that of the second origin being unlocked. Just look at Elfman, Gajeel and Cana. Heck, even Laxus.

If anything, those 3 months training had resulted them in being stronger than the 7 years that other characters had gone through.

SerpentTailedAngel
August 17, 2012, 03:15 AM
Cana didn't work with three months of training. She had Mavis give her a cheat.

FT was way behind with their 7 year absence. Natsu went from losing to Max, one of the guild's less respected members, to curb stomping Sabertooth's best after getting the power up. It was worth more than 3 months.

hoeru
August 17, 2012, 04:24 AM
Whether or not you accept this, Mirajane has shot off beams equal to that or likely stronger than Natsu's attack against Gemma with sheer ease, has a much larger diverse range and basically has combat advantages against Gray - especially when his hand-to-hand combat is inferior to that of Ultear's.
Gray defeated Ulltear in hand-to-hand combat and was able to overcome her Time Arc pretty effortless. How is his technique inferior to hers?! And how come you ignore Gray's Ice Make Arrows which he used to defeat Racer?

Schabrak
August 17, 2012, 04:44 AM
Mirajane has shot off beams equal to that or likely stronger than Natsu's attack against Gemma with sheer ease,

has a much larger diverse range and basically has combat advantages against Gray - especially when his hand-to-hand combat is inferior to that of Ultear's.

Also it's clear from your post you're not actually going to try actually debating but rather simply repeat the possibility that Gray is stronger than Mirajane for absolutely no reason.

Then, may I ask why everyone is immaturely picking on Mirajane?

Gray may have gotten stronger than Erza and even Laxus, however from what we've seen that is unfortunately not true - and of course, we haven't seen much. All you done is repeat what others have said, not exactly fruitful. The changes of Gray being stronger than Mirajane are that akin to Erza, not impossible, but extremely unlikely.

She mostly a purely destructive characer, it would be a shame if her best attacks as an S class mage, couldn't do much damage.

She flies, fires demonic magic and is strong in CQC? Yes she is not an ice make user like Gray, who's unlikely to create living and light enough ice to create wings to fly, he shoots and fights with ice, not his hands[of course that's the place he forms/summons it from]. Still a strong close to long range fighter, try rereading his fights.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb58377/fairytail/images/7/7d/Seven-Blade-Slice-Blood.gif

I do so because your arguments aren't convincing and sometimes wrong.

Who is this everyone people like to talk about? Adress the people you want to have a discussion with, please. You might want to read my latest post on her, where I express satisfaction for Miras current state. :)

You got that right, we did not have the chance to see him fight in a normal fight and that's the biggest hole in your argumentation. You are rating a character from which we got nearly no good representation yet. To come back to your previous post:

The ONLY reason Gray was put in the battle is for plot. No more, no less. Not because it's logical, but rather, because simply Rufus vs Gray is more hyped up than Mirajane vs Rufus. Heck, why bully Gray? The same should very well apply to Natsu and Gajeel.
The only reason Gray lost was to make his fight more exciting, not logical, but because he and Rufus had a predetermined fight. See how your argument works against yourself? :D

WilliamK
August 17, 2012, 05:53 AM
She mostly a purely destructive characer, it would be a shame if her best attacks as an S class mage, couldn't do much damage.

She flies, fires demonic magic and is strong in CQC? Yes she is not an ice make user like Gray, who's unlikely to create living and light enough ice to create wings to fly, he shoots and fights with ice, not his hands[of course that's the place he forms/summons it from]. Still a strong close to long range fighter, try rereading his fights.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb58377/fairytail/images/7/7d/Seven-Blade-Slice-Blood.gif

I do so because your arguments aren't convincing and sometimes wrong.

Who is this everyone people like to talk about? Adress the people you want to have a discussion with, please. You might want to read my latest post on her, where I express satisfaction for Miras current state. :)

You got that right, we did not have the chance to see him fight in a normal fight and that's the biggest hole in your argumentation. You are rating a character from which we got nearly no good representation yet. To come back to your previous post:

The only reason Gray lost was to make his fight more exciting, not logical, but because he and Rufus had a predetermined fight. See how your argument works against yourself? :D

Well I haven't actually made a real argument as of yet, but I do thank you for replying seriously. As for everyone, as in everyone who is debating against Mirajane as weak simply for not being on the team over Gray. Also since people are making the point that Gray could be stronger than Mirajane, it is a much bigger hole in your side of the argument over the Mirajane being stronger. Anyway, time to get into this...

I do agree Mirajane's main forte is offensive magic, however Gray has absolutely no chance against her long-range or close up. If we take into account Gray's opponents, Mirajane could have dominated a large majority of them, par Racer and Ultear who he didn't win fairly against either of them. Even this starts as a close up battle, Gray's combat skills are inferior (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/240/11) to Ultear's. I have no clue how he will tackle Mirajane who endorses hand to hand combat (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-6/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html) more than he ever will and also how she combines large-scale magical attacks with her hand to hand combat (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-6/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html). It should also be taken into account that she summoned one of the largest attacks (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-6/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html) in Fairy Tail in almost no time. Though Gray's Ice-Make speed is comparable, his strongest attacks Gungir (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/5/5f/Gungnir.gif) or Cold Excalibur (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/6/6d/Cold_Excalibur.gif) are something that will never hit Mirajane for her speed and flight advantage. We should also take into account Gungir may only be effective in the water as it literally traps the opponent in an ice burg.

This all of course, taking into account her common Satan Soul and not Halphas or Sitri, both of which are remarkably stronger. Heck, let's take in her long range attacks. Outside of her water and sleep magic, she can simply shoot large beams like so (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-11/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html) or even at not full power like such (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/220/14). Taking into account Halphas as well - something Mashima specifically designed, she also has ranged attacks (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/8/87/Halphas_Cosmic_Blast.png) in that form, although requires charge up.

Now, Mirajane is extremely underrated for some reason. I'm not sure if this was because of Azuma - where Mirajane was already handicapped from lack of magic from prior using Satan Soul (something that shouldn't be used consecutively before the timeskip), something she points out herself (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/220/17) as she doesn't have any power left to defeat him. If you compare her strongest attack in that form to when she uses it at full power (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-11/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html) to when she uses it using Satan Soul for a second time there's a clear difference (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/220/14). And to throw in another reason to why Satan Soul isn't a consecutive spell, she also summoned it again against Acnologia, but didn't maintain the form for even a page. It's simple, Mirajane only lost to Azuma because of essence of her magic not supposed to be used twice in one day - not because she's weaker. She was given a massive handicap.

Basically, Mirajane could arugably defeat Azuma if not for Satan Soul being a spell she can't use over and over again. (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/220/5) This too, completely ignoring how the few times she got directly hit was from Lisanna being a distraction and her refusing to originally even use the spell. Now if you can truly call this Azuma's victory, without being clearly given unfair advantages (something often dubbed "nakama power" when given to heroes), I'm not sure what to say. It's irrelevant to the debate at hand, just trying to figure out why she's underrated and if it is for the Azuma battle, she shouldn't be.

Now, even ignoring her original form and Halphas (a soul that dominated her original form), she has Sitri. The strongest Satan Soul in terms of Erza. Now, we do know that Mirajane was able to blitz Jenny (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/1/1e/Sitri_Mira_Strikes_Jenny.jpg) and though we do not know her strength, we can assume she's at least average or above average in capability as a magician - she's a reserve for a reason and the only other reserves we've seen are all capable magicians. After all, guilds would of course, try to make the best team possible. Now, even if Jenny's skills are only that of a normal magician, Mirajane clearly attacked her in a way that she was unable to defend herself which isn't common even in higher-leveled fighters.

I mean really, despite Gray getting quite a bit of benefits such as inability to die and also magical power boosts from the Tenrou tree, he was still unable to knock out Ultear - even after Gungir and his Seven Sword Dance (something of which I doubt Ultear would normally get caught in, nor Mirajane). I mean, half way through Ultear stopped using her time magic completely and Gray clearly had plot on his side.

Yeah... Mirajane's more variable.
Has more range.
Holds a lot more power.
Likely holds more speed.
Is better at up-close fighting.
Gray of course, does has his own strengths such as his endurance and such, but even with his second origin unlocked - I don't see him winning. Same with Gajeel and Natsu, to be honest. Everyone got stronger together and really, power levels should still roughly remain the same, as implying one character trained harder than the other isn't really a good assumption. Given that Gray relied on his Ice-Make when attacking Nulpudding, there is nothing to assume any of the above has changed.

Now before people hate on me, Gray is an alright character for me. No, I don't hate him. I just frankly don't see how he is stronger than Mirajane. You can go on about possibilities this, possibilities that, but the same applies to Mirajane. There's a possibility she's back as Erza's rival and stronger than Jura! Now how likely is that? Not by much.

With that said, I do support him fighting Rufus over Mirajane, but I don't support him being weaker than her. As hoeru said before, motivation is the thing I see why Gray (and Natsu/Gajeel) were put in the team over her.

hoeru
August 17, 2012, 05:34 PM
Even this starts as a close up battle, Gray's combat skills are inferior (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/240/11) to Ultear's.

How do you fight someone you just found out to be your master's daughter while trying to convince her of her wrong path? You don't go all in.

And Gray took actually the same flying kick in his stomach from Ulltear (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/13) that Mira dealt to Fried and Azuma.


Heck, let's take in her long range attacks. Outside of her water and sleep magic, she can simply shoot large beams like so (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7233-11/fairy-tail/chapter-118.html) or even at not full power like such (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/220/14).
Read again: Those weren't range attacks. She attacked her opponents from close range. Nothing Mira has shown indicates, that she has the same range as Gray (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7255-13/fairy-tail/chapter-140.html).


Taking into account Halphas as well - something Mashima specifically designed, she also has ranged attacks (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/8/87/Halphas_Cosmic_Blast.png) in that form, although requires charge up.

Episode 138 is a filler, and as fillers aren't done by the original author - he doesn't have to give his okay - so it's not relevant at all to strength comparisons, as the content is contradicting in most cases anyways. That's a basic in discussion about manga.

So anything about Zentopia so far is irrelevant.


Now, even ignoring her original form and Halphas (a soul that dominated her original form), she has Sitri. The strongest Satan Soul in terms of Erza. Now, we do know that Mirajane was able to blitz Jenny (http://images.wikia.com/fairytail/images/1/1e/Sitri_Mira_Strikes_Jenny.jpg) and though we do not know her strength, we can assume she's at least average or above average in capability as a magician

You saw the hit connecting to Jenny? There isn't even a scratch on Jenny (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/279/21)... She only passed out due to a shock.

Edelheld
August 17, 2012, 05:37 PM
Well I haven't actually made a real argument as of yet, but I do thank you for replying seriously. ...
That's a lot about Mira's attack but what about Mira's defense? It looks to me she has only speed for that to count.
And about that Gray's attacks will never hit her, we know that Mira is easily distracted by the enemy and loses concentration too fast(Elfman + Eva, Azuma).
And what about her inability to hold her magic for long? Her brother and sister using basically same magic are able to change forms very easily so it's not the flaw of the magic. It looks to me her magic is "rush" oriented and tries to destroy opponent by overwhelming force. But if the enemy is able to withstand that storming attack what will Mira do then?

WilliamK
August 17, 2012, 07:17 PM
How do you fight someone you just found out to be your master's daughter while trying to convince her of her wrong path? You don't go all in.

And Gray took actually the same flying kick in his stomach from Ulltear (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/13) that Mira dealt to Fried and Azuma.

Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/12) both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/14) giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.


Read again: Those weren't range attacks. She attacked her opponents from close range. Nothing Mira has shown indicates, that she has the same range as Gray (http://www.mangapanda.com/135-7255-13/fairy-tail/chapter-140.html).

Both were used at short range - in respect to her hand-to-hand combat, however can also be used at long-range, as seen when she used it on Azuma. It's true Gray's arrow has a large range, but be reasonable. This isn't Lyon, Sherry and Gray vs Mirajane - this is Gray vs Mirajane. There is no way for him to get an opportunity to shoot Mirajane from a very far distance and she does have her nuke-beams, Sitri-speed and such to avoid or counter the arrow in any case.



Episode 138 is a filler, and as fillers aren't done by the original author - he doesn't have to give his okay - so it's not relevant at all to strength comparisons, as the content is contradicting in most cases anyways. That's a basic in discussion about manga.

So anything about Zentopia so far is irrelevant.

Except it's been referenced in the manga, but that's irrelevant to the debate. It's up to the reader of my post to determine whether they count the form as canon or not, because it was clearly Mashima's idea to insert it where he even posted a sketch of it on his twitter, as well as for Midnight.

Contrary to what one may think, a large, large majority take the fillers at least half-canon.


You saw the hit connecting to Jenny? There isn't even a scratch on Jenny (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/279/21)... She only passed out due to a shock.

I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.


That's a lot about Mira's attack but what about Mira's defense? It looks to me she has only speed for that to count.
And about that Gray's attacks will never hit her, we know that Mira is easily distracted by the enemy and loses concentration too fast(Elfman + Eva, Azuma).
And what about her inability to hold her magic for long? Her brother and sister using basically same magic are able to change forms very easily so it's not the flaw of the magic. It looks to me her magic is "rush" oriented and tries to destroy opponent by overwhelming force. But if the enemy is able to withstand that storming attack what will Mira do then?

Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's. As for getting distracted, I'm not sure why - in a battle - Gray would make a tactical maneuver saying he's Lisanna's daughter to distract Mirajane, however if with the assumption he did, well, I guess he could get a hit in with Cold Excalibur - only assuming he hasn't already got it out as his Ice-Make does require build-up time and such. The only time she's really distracted is through her siblings, which aren't really accountable in a battle unless he's taking them hostage.

Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. Assuming both are at full power and Mirajane hasn't used Satan Soul in the day, we have yet to ever see her lose - or even be on any brink of losing magical power upon her first summon and she shouldn't assume so for Gray. Now, this isn't saying she has unlimited power, but we have to take into account that from what we've seen with Freed, Mary, Azuma and even Jenny that she doesn't stop her attacks, when she's winning (although in the case of Azuma, she got hit a few times from Lisanna and stopped to look at Lisanna). She usually however doesn't stop her attacks until they're pretty much on the ground really.

hoeru
August 18, 2012, 08:01 AM
There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.


Thanks for the reply! Yes, I did mention in my post that Gray's one thing he would almost definitely have over Mirajane is endurance - or at least his determination to keep going, as seen in his fight with Bixlow. However, the problem with the Ultear fight is that she literally discarded using Time Arc and heck, even when they went to hand-to-hand and really just stayed there. Now, Gray's hand-to-hand combat is nothing to laugh at, however it should be noted in the water that he had an unfair advantage (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/12) both getting the first strike and Ultear stopped flowing for quite a bit (http://www.mangapanda.com/fairy-tail/241/14) giving him time to charge Gungir and "defeat" her, which was more or less Ultear just losing will to battle than actually losing in combat.

Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.


I never really said she hit Jenny, just blitzed her. I agree with what you're saying, but I think it still stands to say she out-sped her.

Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.

Edelheld
August 18, 2012, 03:58 PM
...
1) Good points. We have not much on Mirajane's defence, however from both her brawl with Freed and Azuma, she didn't get slowed down from what we've seen. But yeah, no real beneficial defence feats, which isn't necessarily a problem here because Gray's offensive power and speed to hit her isn't as noteworthy as Mirajane's....
2) Anyway, I do agree Mirajane's aim is to overwhelm and destroy her opponents. However, I don't think the enemy will withstand it. ...
1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
---
It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
<I'll go cry now:crying>

Lozmaster
August 18, 2012, 06:36 PM
There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

I'm sorry, but there is no way you can possibly take the manga saying something along the lines of "because of the recent Zentopia incident, there are so few celestial spirit mages left", together with a picture of the zentopia main base pulled straight from the anime, which is showing a ton of celestial spirit mages being killed or at best completely losing all of their magic and call the filler non-canon.

The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

I don't understand how "Written by the manga author" together with "character designs by the author" and "mentioned in the manga" could possibly result in anything other than it being canon. Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Anyway...



Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win

WilliamK
August 18, 2012, 10:21 PM
There isn't such a thing as "half canon", nor is it the reader's decision what to take as canon or not. And the Zentopia incident was defined by one page of 20 others in one chapter and completely without any detail - that does not make the filler canon at all. Twitter doesn't provide much proof either, as it simply didn't appear in the manga.

Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."


Ulltear's advantage of being his master's mislead daughter to be convinced of her wrong path, wasn't unfair? While Gray was pressuring on her so Time Arc became useless based on his fighting skills... Seriously, you should check what to define "inferior" or less relevant.

Well, if the hit didn't connect nor left any traces of an impact it can't be taken as proof of her being superior over Gray in general.

Ultear is stronger than Gray, likely by far. I don't think that's really debatable.

The point was that Mirajane could blitz someone at very least that has the ability of a normal magician (something Jenny is likely above anyway) - something of which isn't common throughout Fairy Tail.


1) As I assumed about Mira's main "rush" tactics, Gray just needs to withstand her burst attack and then catch her by surprise and deliver the final blow. He don't need incredibly strong attack spells for that. And remembering how he easily defended guild masters from Lullaby's attack with his shield those Mira's big blasts don't look that intimidating =)
2) Of course, to prove or disprove my point on that we'll need some Mira's straight words or real fight when she is not frenzied, fillered, weakened by previous fight or fanserviced. And we have a huge lack of that =(
As long as you agrees Mira is not overwhelmingly stronger than Gray and choosing him for the team is at least might be somehow justified not only by the plot needs - I'm happy =)
---
It seems you forgot that it's not about Mira vs. Gray fight, it's about who will benefit to the team more. And here I were about to tell of Gray's versatility, his team-up experience with Natsu and Elsa and so on but judging from all previous fights that tournament was mostly full of ass pull wins and comic reliefs. Tag team fights have shown only one combined attack by Bacchus and Rocker and other tag team fight were not even shown. No tactics, no mind games, just sheer stupid crushing power. So what's the point in all that "teamwork" skills? =(
<I'll go cry now:crying>

The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.

Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.

I do think he should've been included instead though, as unlike the others, he has wanted to continue fighting in the tournament since Rufus - so at the very least, he has the motivation for this.

hoeru
August 19, 2012, 04:33 AM
The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

Neither writing the GENERAL plot nor doing the character designs does make a anime-only plots canon, as the link in the manga is still way too plain and without ANY detail. They stay fillers. Heck the anime itself is completely interpreted from what Mashima created in his manga. Just compare those silly seals that appear in the anime to them not appearing at all in the manga.

Why should be Fairy Tail here any different than other manga with anime adaptions? Because of one page?


Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Watching an anime adaption is redundant, aside the action in a tv show is changed and violence toned down, and aside from those parts that are anime-only. And anime-only episodes are: Fillers, and fillers aren't canon.

But as you say. Kageyama killing off his comerades in episode 4 is canon, too.


Time Arc didn't become useless. Ultear picked up the idiot ball. If she really wanted to win, she could easily have dispelled Greys spells again because he stopped using blood, and regardless there was absolutely no way he could have used his finishing spell with his own blood. She clearly gave up the fight and let grey win

You can't say at all that she still could use Time Arc. She didn't use it until she recovered the TenrĂ´ tree. And as we've seen from Azuma, using Arc magic is risky - and once you overuse it, you lose your life. Ulltear is smart enough not to cross that line, as she likely had to cross that line while fighting Gray.

Schabrak
August 20, 2012, 05:50 AM
I'm sorry, but there is no way you can possibly take the manga saying something along the lines of "because of the recent Zentopia incident, there are so few celestial spirit mages left", together with a picture of the zentopia main base pulled straight from the anime, which is showing a ton of celestial spirit mages being killed or at best completely losing all of their magic and call the filler non-canon.

The point about Twitter was that Mashima was doing the character designs for the filler. He's also written the general plot of the anime filler, but you'd need the cover pages that almost never get translated to prove that.

I don't understand how "Written by the manga author" together with "character designs by the author" and "mentioned in the manga" could possibly result in anything other than it being canon. Obviously he couldn't go into heavy detail about it, because that would make it redundant watching the anime arc at.

Plot and characters desgined by the mangaka don't make them canon. That's where the whole discussion about it being filler or not ends. Shiki is a canon OP character, the SW movie is still filler. Hell was named once in the Bleach manga, the characters were designed by Tite, the Hellverse movie and it's depiction of hell are still filler, just as well as the Bounties and Zanpakatou portrayals. Allusions are in no way evidence for something being real in the manga.


Sorry, using half-canon is a bad term. But to the contrary to what you think, canon is the reader's decision. "In fiction, canon is the conceptual material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe's fan base."

No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.

WilliamK
August 20, 2012, 06:26 AM
No it's not the readers decision, I don't know where you got that idea from. e.g. George Lucas decides what's SW canon and what's not, not you, not I, not even the authors of those books expanding on his creation.

I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.

Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.

The original Mirajane argument seems to have ended, so... :shrug:

Edelheld
August 21, 2012, 01:48 PM
...
1) The main problem with Gray finishing someone on Mirajane's level off in a single sweep of attacks is that both his seven-sword dance (often what he uses to attack anyone) and also Gungir both proved ineffective in knocking out Ultear. Anyway, no offence to Lullaby, but it lacks feats and got stomped pretty easily. At least compared to Deliora, it's much more inferior in terms of fighting.
2) Anyway, whether or not Mirajane stomps Gray or not should be comparable to Erza vs Gray. I don't think either would stomp him, but I do find it questionable that he would defeat either, in my opinion.
...
1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?


I'm sorry, but what I gave was a definition from wikipedia. You can go argue with the editors over there if you disagree. Basically, if we really get down to it, it's what determines what is official to the story, which though of course, comes from the mangaka, does not mean work not done by the mangaka isn't canon and work the mangaka does is canon.
Also, this is also irrelevant to the original thread, so I don't understand why you quoted just to talk about filler being canon or not as a debate, because the thread is about magic.
...
Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)

WilliamK
August 21, 2012, 06:56 PM
1) That's the tactics Gray mostly uses - to wear the enemy and then strike him down. So he don't need super strong attacks. And his defensive abilities do not demand a lot of his power so he can just spam them.
And there is also Ice Cannon thing with the attacks you named. He knocked off Lyon with that one.
2) And why in a world that should be compared to Elsa vs. Gray?

Gray mostly uses? Absolutely not. This was reasonable before, but this is getting lengthy for little reason. From Rayule, to Lyon, to Jubia, he clearly attacks them at the start with clear intention of overwhelming them and in most cases succeeds such as freezing Fukurou's flames, freezing Rayule and exploding. Later on, he continues to do this! Sugarboy? Took him down with his Seven Sword attack. Then even look in Hidden, he didn't bother to "analyze" Nullpudding and attacked him immediately for no reason.
1) Ice canon? Well, that would be funny if that's one of his strongest attacks. It's by all means strong at the start of the series, but I have no clue how he's going to match up to Mira with an attack she could easily dodge with Sitri.
2) Because if it's a stomp against Erza, it's likely a stomp against Mirajane. Even if Erza is stronger than Mirajane, their power would be closer to when compared to the likes of Gray.


Nice way of throwing hoeru and Schabrak off the Fairy Tail's fan base =)
The author decides what's canon in his universe because it's his full creation. If the universe is widespread among many authors and the main author of the universe is dead or don't pay much attention to what is canon then the fan base decide what is canon. Just name one fictional universe in which fan base's word is heavier than author's in deciding canon. I doubt you can.
Hey, don't blame him, you started it when you remembered Mira's attack from anime =)

Okay, let me get this straight. I blatantly said that if you don't find the anime canon, then it's up to them and to ignore any relevancy of the post towards the anime fight - as in, I will ignore the anime in the debate for them. In other words, I never wanted it to turn into an anime being relevant debate (although it has in other threads), so no, I am not shoving the blame off me, it is there fault for having to side-step the original argument and bring it out into something irrelevant to the thread - something my original post was not as it was outlining Mira's powers in the anime - something a lot of people here find canon and some a lot of people here don't find canon. I normally wouldn't mind this, but you just attacked my character as if I was some evil, cunning manipulator and frankly, since I'm new to Mangahelpers, I don't want to get any type of warning.

Just because the author does something does not mean it's canon. I guess all the cute extra art uniforms like Lucy in a nurse suit is a canon thing she has?
That must also mean the movie is canon and also the side-story of Lucy being a year into Fairy Tail is canon too. Anyway, Mashima has adapated a lot of things from the anime, I've already proved that. Lucy's key designs, Cana's card designs and also Laki's bedroom in Fairy Hills. He's also done a lot of referencing as well. Anyway, as said, just because it's not written by the author doesn't mean it's canon and just because it is, doesn't mean it's true. Now, with that said, you seem to be thinking this to the extreme. Of course what the author writes has a much larger value of anything, but not everything applies. As said, he special of Lucy joining FT a year ago and also Memory Days may not be canon (although I consider it), despite being written by the author.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you think I have something against them? You're definitely wrong if that's the case. I'm not going to judge (or particularly have any opinion) on someone just because they're amidst a debate. I'm debating in the idea that Mirajane is stronger than Gray - something you didn't necessarily agree or disagree to and now you're bringing back the filler stuff. Look, I included it because some people here find it canon. If you don't, then I'll debate without it, that was clearly the intent when bringing up Halphas - because contrary to what you think, a lot of people do find it canon.

Anyway, thanks for also for doing this, despite being aware that it's off-topic. So I will not address the matter publicly outside of discussion over Mirajane's magical power in this thread. If you feel the need to reply, I'll message a reply to you if you're talking just off-topic stuff or reply in the anime thread so we don't get warned. :)