Has Naruto surpassed Kakashi?

[PredatorNar]

First, I want to start with a picture:

http://www.geocities.com/ravravel25/K-Surpassed.JPG

Now let's look at certain points:

--Kakashi's arm is injured. Naruto's arm is not injured.
--Kakashi almost collapses after the clash, while Naruto stands strong.
--The picture above suggests Kakashi groups Naruto with the Yondaime which can either mean he feels Naruto truely is the only one who will reach Yondaime or he sees Naruto to be superior, just like his sensei, the Yondaime.
--Naruto's natural affinity is the superior to Kakashi's natural affinity*
--Naruto is now showing analytical skills.

*I say lightning is Kakashi's natural affinity because although Kakashi has shown to use water and earth jutsus, he identifies most with the lightning. Furthermore, I have yet to see Kakashi use a fire jutsu so we know he doesn't have a clear advantage over Naruto in the elemental department.

It's now shown why Kakashi's arm has been injured. Both clashed their Rasengans and simply, Naruto won :P. And since Naruto's hand was not harmed in any way, it shows Naruto has controlled his chakra enough to have enough power than Kakashi. Since Kakashi almost collapsed, it shows that Naruto could have probably killed Kakashi if he tried hard enough.
Kakashi is now grouping Naruto with Yondaime which means that Kakashi now has great respect for Naruto as a fighter. Furthermore, since Naruto is now showing analytical skills, he is improving to be an all-around very strong fighter.

Okay this next part is a tidbit that deals with the latest chapter but it needs to be posted here so don't click on the spoiler if you don't want to see it:
Kakashi, using HIS natural affinity, is having his butt handed to him by Kakuzu. However, in the latest chapter, Naruto would have killed Kakuzu if his jutsu didn't crap out at the last minute. Naruto, showing his great analytical skill, successfully got behind Kakuzu and got close enough to Kakuzu without being hit. If Kakuzu wasn't totally lucky that Naruto's jutsu crapped out, he'd be dead right now, since his remaining hearts were clumped in the same area/body, so the RasenShuriken would have destroyed the 3 hearts at once.

Anyway, let's see what everyone else has to say: Has Naruto now surpassed Kakashi?

[venicia777]

i dont think so. Maybe in raw power (that is if he is in Kyuubi mode). Naruto is a long way from surpassing Kakashi. Of course he has surpassed him in the rasengan department.

Seeing the way kakashi performed in the current arc and in the process even protecting shika,ino, and chouji -- Naruto sure has some ways to go.
I have more to add so i will come back later.

[Raine_Joybringer]

Currently, Naruto still has a far way to go before reaching Kakashi's level. Naruto has a lot of potential and larger chakra reserves than Kakashi, but in terms of intelligence and experience, Kakashi is still superior.

But I have no doubt in that he'll surpass him in the future. :) Naruto just needs to grow up first.

[PredatorNar]

Well I think the goofy side of Naruto will never leave. That's just a part of his personality but he has significantly grown. I mean I keep re-reading the latest chapter and I see what Naruto did and I think...

...that the way Naruto got in close enough to put the RasenShuriken RIGHT ON KAKUZU'S CHEST and the way he successfully predicted that he needed only 3 clones to do it means that Naruto definitely has the wits to win

[Uchiha Slayer]

Currently, Naruto still has a far way to go before reaching Kakashi's level. Naruto has a lot of potential and larger chakra reserves than Kakashi, but in terms of intelligence and experience, Kakashi is still superior.

But I have no doubt in that he'll surpass him in the future. :) Naruto just needs to grow up first.


I feel the same way, Naruto will pass Kakashi some day but for right now Kakashi has more experience and intelligence than Naruto. In turns make Kakashi stronger in battle. I mean look at shikamaru, he's not the strongest of characters in physical terms, but is a genius in strategic battle tactics. So, Naruto has more room to learn and one day he will be stronger than Kakashi and the Yodaime.

[qwan3356]

I feel the same way, Naruto will pass Kakashi some day but for right now Kakashi has more experience and intelligence than Naruto. In turns make Kakashi stronger in battle. I mean look at shikamaru, he's not the strongest of characters in physical terms, but is a genius in strategic battle tactics. So, Naruto has more room to learn and one day he will be stronger than Kakashi and the Yodaime.


I totally agree, Naruto is by far more powerful, but brains always wins over brawns, and Shika has proved that time and time again. So for the moment Kakashi is still ahead, Til Naruto actually starts to use what he has between his ears better, (don't get me wrong, he is on his way as can be seen from the last chapter, but he is not on par wit Kakashi).

[OP_overlord]

not by a long shot
kakashi is a legand copy nin kakashi that is cool
he is smarted faster and more powerful his elemental jutsu is great (not as good as sasuke for i think that he has surpased kakashi)
naruto needs to work on speed, brains, and power all thogether and then maybe but even if he does surpase him kakashi willstill be his teacher

[swishhboy]

naruto is not stronger than kakashi for two reasons one mangekyou sharingan which is the ultimate trump card, and two kakashi si much smarter tahn naruto, naruto does have more raw power than kakashi, and is beginning to have the brains to work it out, i believe that naruto will definetly become stronger than kakashi but at the moment in a one v one fight no, however i do believe that naruto may be able to beat kakuzu even though kakashi couldn't becuase of his lack of chakra, but we wont no a true kakashi v kakuzu fight becuase kakashi was protecting ino and choji too

[bax]

naruto is not stronger than kakashi for two reasons one mangekyou sharingan which is the ultimate trump card, and two kakashi si much smarter tahn naruto,


Half true for me. Having an ultimate jutsu doesn't necessarily means you are strong, it is just an advantage. This has proven so many times in Naruto. Examples:


[@] Naruto vs Neji - That time Naruto was just too inexperience going against Byakugan, and interesting enough Neji is a genius and has more experience than Naruto.
[@] Kakashi vs Deidara - That time, Deidara doesn't even know Kakashi has MS. What if Deidara knows before hand. And concerning Kakashi's chakra limit, it will only spells troubles to Kakashi if Deidara can evade Kakashi's MS


But, back to the topic, Naruto's main weakness is experience. No doubt he posses enormous chakra capacity, but between possessing a weapon and know how to use a weapon, there is a thick line between them. As for now, Naruto hasn't surpassed Kakashi, I blame it on his lack of experience.

But yes, Naruto will surpass Kakashi one day. If Kakashi believes Naruto can surpass the Yondaime, ofcourse at that time, Naruto will surpassed Kakashi and even Sandaime, because Yondaime is stated as the strongest shinobi Konoha has ever produced. So no doubt he will surpassed Kakashi, but not now.

[pjoto]

If Naruto's been walking around with Jiraya for 3 years, I don't think experience is the problem.
No doubt Jiraya and Naruto had to do a few missions or ended up in a few fights, I think Naruto's had his share of fighting.

And Naruto was stronger than Kakashi in the Rasengan-battle, but that doesn't neccesairilly mean he would win a real life or death match against him.

Kakashi could simply hide in the bushes and MS him into another universe, or use some weird long-distance techniques on him.

[bax]

If Naruto's been walking around with Jiraya for 3 years, I don't think experience is the problem.
No doubt Jiraya and Naruto had to do a few missions or ended up in a few fights, I think Naruto's had his share of fighting.


Yes I agree with you. 2 and a half years is a long period. But simply just because his mentor is an experienced Sannin, doesn't means that he can gained a lot of experience by just learning. Naruto needs to experience the battles by himself.

On the other hand, Kakashi is a very experienced Jounin. He has been is big battles like in the Gaiden. So, experience wise, Naruto still lacks first-hand experience. If Naruto is to battle Kakashi now, Naruto will lose, simply by experience.

[OP_overlord]

yeah and kakahi is almost as famous as the sannin so that shows something about power and what do you think kakashi haas been doing while he had no students training and fighting ninja no doubt so he is a few steps ahead for naruto in experince, skills (basci and advanced), hes smarter than naruto,...

[PredatorNar]

Kakashi is as famous as the Sannin but no where near as strong. Btw, I just noticed that BOTH Orochimaru and Jiraiya said Kabuto is AS STRONG as Kakashi. However, I think Kabuto has only shown us some of his strength. I truely believe he may be stronger than Orochimaru but hiding his strength for his ulterior motive. But I digress.

[dimska]

If we look at Naruto's fighting performance in last chapter it is quite a feat: he was able to go in against an akatsuki at short range and almost give the killing blow. Kakashi didn't manage to fight this close range to Kakuzu.

So one can wonder if in raw fighting skill Naruto has surpassed Kakashi:

His most destructive Ninjutsu is clearly more powerful than Kakashi's :Kakashi's Rasengan did lose completely against Naruto's. And for those who'd believe his Raikiri is more powerful, if Kakashi's Raikiri was more powerful than his Rasengan, he would have definitely used it for the test against the Fuuton Rasengan.

In terms of Taijutsu, it is hard to determine: Naruto has his Kage Bunshins but are they enough to compensate for a Sharingan? Naruto is now a skilled in Taijutsu as it has been shown in the many strifes in which he intervened in part 2: Bell Test, Chyobaa sama blocking, Deidara's pounding (he did catch off-guard an Akatsuki member) even against Sasuke was he not bad.
But is that enough against Kakashi? Maybe the Kage Bunshin training was also favorable in that aspect as he went in close range against Kakuzu, even dodging his shooting hand whereas Kakashi was caught by his tentacles and never managed close range.

I think that in a direct confrontation, Kakashi has nothing in stock to block Naruto's Fuuton Rasenshuriken and wouldn't be able to avoid the hit, thus ending with a clear Naruto victory (and a rain of Kakashi body parts, resulting in endless crying for an uncountable number of fans)
But the thing is, Kakashi would never fight directly any kind of chakra and stamina freak and would use his battle experience, brain power and thousands of jutsu to create favorable conditions for the confrontation (or downright assassination, he's a ninja for Jashin's sake!) . Naruto being also quite battle inventive and having quick reactions would not be that disadvantaged, I think.
So there would be only one issue, as usual for these kinds of fight, i.e plot no-jutsu. So we should post a mail to Kishimoto to have this issue resolved X-)

[manu]

... Kakashi took an eye out of his best friend. I highly doubt Naruto has the balls to do that. Even when he's 4 years older. So yeah in general I don't see Naruto becoming better since he lacks the extra umph that Kakashi has to kill. Yeah kill, I'm desperately trying to remember the last person Naruto has killed but have yet to see it. Kakashi on the other hand has been killing people since the age of 11-12. Mainly since he was fighting in the great war but he was killing nonetheless. How will Naruto deal with a lethal fight? He's always been in missions where he's had backup and I guess the one fight he's had without supervision was with Sasuke but even then Sasuke was fighting with no intent to kill

Naruto lacks the balls to surpass Kakashi period. Though of course being his series I'll be proven wrong but w/e[br]Posted on: February 04, 2007, 01:10:29 PM_________________________________________________Oh and if Kakashi wanted to block futon rasenshuriken all he would have to do is go underground. That or use his Sharigan eyes to counter with a Raikiri to the heart.

[dimska]

Oh and if Kakashi wanted to block futon rasenshuriken all he would have to do is go underground. That or use his Sharigan eyes to counter with a Raikiri to the heart.

I'm not sure Kakashi would go underground because when underground he'd be vulnerable to a smash of a rasenshuriken on the ground and would not be really able to attack anyway.
Going underground is rather something you do when you are hidden from your enemy (Kakashi going underground hidden by Itachi's Goukayou no jutsu) because moving underground is harder than moving on the surface, putting you in a disadvantage against the enemy (he can't see you but you can't see him either and he'll definitely change position if he sees you going underground)
As for Sharingan, Kakashi wasn't able to dodge Kakuzu nor to strike Hidan so I guess that against skillful opponents, a stab to the heart isn't that easy to make. And I do think that Naruto is at least as good as Hidan in taijutsu now, especially if supported by Kage Bunshins.

[PredatorNar]

manu: He doesn't have the balls? Erm, didn't he just put the RasenShuriken on Kakuzu's chest with the INTENT TO KILL HIM? I'm sure he did. Also, he sent a Rasengan right into the stomach of Kabuto WITH THE INTENT TO KILL HIM! Also, I'm pretty sure Naruto was trying hard as hell to kill Deidara. So what the heck are you talking about he doesn't have the balls to kill? He just hasn't suceeded in killing these people but he sure as hell wants to.

[manu]

So your saying that futon rasengan can peirce the earth down to its core? I highly doubt Naruto would even know where to aim the thing. Also Sharigan gets better each time he fights an opponent. Remember what he said to Zabuza, no one has ever survived to face the Sharigan 3 times. Exception being other sharigan users since sharigan crosses out sharigan.

And I'm bringing this up because Kakashi has studied Naruto more then anyone. Last chapter alone proves that nothing Naruto does will suprise him. We could continue this debate but I feel like I'm repeating my self when I say the Kakashi has Naruto's number and that Naruto has never had to fight for his life and would most likely freeze again.

Of course there is always the Kyuubi option but Jiraiya gave him tags to block out that option. Part of being a ninja is to always be prepared and I don't think Kakashi is stupid enough to turn his back on the nine tails ever.

@ PredatorNar when he was fighting Kakuzu he had back up, agaisnt Kabuto he had backup, and agaisnt Deidara he had backup. In all those cases if he failed (which he has) someone would bail him out. If you want to kill someone you make sure the job is finished. Even if its at the stake of your own life. Take Neji for example, the first one of the chuuniners to become Jounin. When he fought his soundnin he killed his opponent but in return got an arrow throught the heart. That is when you fight with the intent to kill.

[DarkManSharingan32]

No.

As someone who knows Naruto so intimately, a ninja like Kakashi could definetly strategize his way to to victory.
If he was forced to, that is.

[mrcongojack]

I think Kakashi is still stronger than Naruto (sans 4 Tail Kyubi). Kakashi is an elite jonin who has fought and defeated tons of A-rank and S-class ninja.

Once Naruto beats Kakuzu, I think he'll be on par with Kakashi.

[OP_overlord]

still not on par with him he would have to beat the whole bunch of memebers to be on par with kakashi

[mrcongojack]

@ PredatorNar when he was fighting Kakuzu he had back up, agaisnt Kabuto he had backup, and agaisnt Deidara he had backup. In all those cases if he failed (which he has) someone would bail him out. If you want to kill someone you make sure the job is finished. Even if its at the stake of your own life. Take Neji for example, the first one of the chuuniners to become Jounin. When he fought his soundnin he killed his opponent but in return got an arrow throught the heart. That is when you fight with the intent to kill.


We can't really fault Naruto for never actually finishing off an enemy. Naruto has always been paired up with enemies that outclass him. Kabuto at the time he was fighting Naruto was at least as powerful as Kakashi. Also, there is the matter of "that jutsu". Naruto has yet to reveal what "that jutsu" is, although he might in the upcoming fight. That might tip the scales in Naruto's favor in this debate.

[ophidial]

well, even right now i think that naruto would probably win 3 out every
10 battles with kakashi, i mean he definately has all the utilities to do
so it's just a matter of how really.
with of course narutos trump card being the toad summon, as
kakashi has shown no jutsu of that scale.

[Cyven]

Naruto not killing is the very point of Naruto XD

He's the main character, a good guy and a sentimental good guy at that. His very strength is that those he comes into contact with can't help BUT respect and befriend him. He's Naruto's Goku for crying out loud o.O;

It's not the main character's job to do the killing. If anything, he'll leave Kakuzu wounded, but he definitely won't be the one to KILL Kakuzu.

[The Boff]

havent read the entire thread only the first post, why? im lazy.

so to answer the first post i would say no. but he could mmost definetly do it. he's not just there yet.
having one jutsu thats stronger than kakashi doesnt really give an overall view of ones ability.
and kakashi has been said to have copied 1000 jutsus with his sharingan.

the thing i USED to love with naruto was his amazing quick wits. against zabusa, the shuriken clone.
against neji, dig your ass off. against gaara, konoha hidden taijitsu ougi: sennen gorashi with an exploading tag.
that was his strength. AND when he realized in the end of the fight against gaara that you get stronger when you protect someone. that was his strengths. but nowadays...............
he is only focused on sasuke, getting him back. and he never shows any inventivness in the fights. he's clearly forgotten that protection=great strength but if he could get his head together and
use his new found element to creat more than 1 jutsu thats actually unnecessary(sp?). considering that it is the rasengan. its used the same way, point blank hit that destroys your target. both fuuton and regular rasengan does that.

so my point is this:
if naruto remembers why he should fight and starts doing more than one thing in battles THEN he will have surpassed kakashi. but now he's nowhere near as good as him.

[king_crimson-]

uh? naruto hasn't killed anyone? what? have you all forgot about yuura, the sand nin disguised as itachi?


Once Naruto beats Kakuzu, I think he'll be on par with Kakashi.
first, we don't know if kakashi had ever defeated an s-class criminal...second, naruto's fighting style is similar to kakashi's...if he defeat kakuzu fighting like that he would be stronger than kakashi in close combat.

still i don't think he have surpassed kakashi(even if he defeat kakuzu): kakashi is an all-round nin, who can fight in both close/mid/and long range, surpassing him in close combat only doesn't make naruto stronger than him. Nartuo has way to go to surpass kakashi

[Cyven]

Yuura was still a team effort.

Considering that Kakashi and Naruto &co assumed they were dealing with the real Itachi. Naruto didn't have any killing intent, killing Yuura was more of an accident than an intended murder.

While he may have killed Yuura, he never did display killing intent (though, I KNOW, I know, against Haku he did display killing intent, but in the end he still managed to restrain himself)

This lack of killing intent sets him apart from all the other characters.

I guess I should correct myself: Naruto never fights with the intent to kill and as a result will rarely, if ever, kill his opponent.

[manu]

Dude, Yuura was already dead to begin with. The jutsu kills the "puppet" in exchange for making them stronger. I think... thats only a theory but it seems to be the case with Orochimarus resurrection jutsu he used on the two gennin sound nins. It could be agrued that I don't know this for a fact but it seems really unlikely that when a person's body is used as a sacrifice for a jutsu that they come back to life. The word sacrifice usually indicates that someone died before hand. So Naruto didn't kill him.

I like Boffen's explaination of Naruto's weakness, definately his Sasuke obsession isn't making him as strong as he should be. As for whether Kakashi has defeated an S-class criminal you must not have actually paid attention to anything that Zabuza said King Crimson. Zabuza's bingo book only contained S-class ninja's, and guess what Kakashi was in it. Try to fill in the gaps more often ;)

[king_crimson-]

even if he didn't kill him, how can you say that he has never shown killing intent? he goes at him, thinking he was itachi, with the intent to kill him

[Cyven]

Naruto doesn't believe anyone is *truly* evil, he'd want to take Itachi out yes, but not kill him.

[OP_overlord]

but if he killed him sasuke would have to come back to konoha so he might kill him
but kakashi must be a weakish s-class nin cause the ata. guys are best and they are all s-class kakashi could take on one of them alone he is a S- while they are S+/or just S class ninja

[taniquetil]

I don't think that Kakashi is weaker than Naruto. I think he's a lot stronger. THe only reason he couldn't fight evenly against Kakuzu was because he was defending INo and Chouji. Dunno where exactly but at one point Kakuzu fires off two masks at Ino and Chouji and Kakashi is forced to block with double Raikiri.

True Kakashi needed Shikamaru's help to destroy Kakuzu's two hearts, but I think with Kage Bunshin Kakashi might have been able to do it if he was fighting Kakuzu one-on-one. It's hard to say for sure.

What I'm wondering is why Kakashi didn't copy the cool jutsu's that Kakuzu has been using against the team. I mean, he himself said they are extremely high level...so...what's the deal here?

Naruto still has a ways to go before he can beat Kakashi. The only way he can beat Kakuzu is with brute force. The way he analyzed that he needs 3 shadow clones to distract Kakuzu was just through sheer common sense. It's not hard to realize when an opponent's hands become tied up.

[OP_overlord]

the reason why kakashi couldnt copy the "cool jutsu's" that the maskes where shoting out was because you cant copy an elemental jutsu it is unique to the owner of it and impossible to duplicate

naruto has not surpassed kakashi yet but sasuke has in my opinion

[Raine_Joybringer]

the reason why kakashi couldnt copy the "cool jutsu's" that the maskes where shoting out was because you cant copy an elemental jutsu it is unique to the owner of it and impossible to duplicate


:offtopic It actually seemed to me that what the masks blew out was just like a pure element (which could possible not be copied anyway). They don't really seem to have any special forms- just that they blow out either a big ball of fire or whatever else chakra-type it is.

[Cyven]

[Off-Topic]
Bloodline Limit, perhaps? Those can't be copied, besides, Kakashi's shown doing Lightning, Water and Earth element jutsu, so to say they can't be copied cuz of their element might be slightly incorrect...[/Off-Topic]

As for Naruto VS Kakashi:

Naruto might have the superior jutsu now, but he's still easily trapped. Kakashi can outwit him without too much trouble and use that to his advantage, to force Naruto into a position where Kakashi's in full control.

All Naruto has are his superior Fuuton jutsu, his perfect Kage Bunshin technique and his higher chakra supply. While nothing to scoff at, it's not enough, Kakashi can see through Naruto's tactics with relative ease and so long as he can keep his distance, forcing Naruto into a disadvantageous position, he should have the victory down.

[Mecca83]

I don't know Naruto could knowing of Kakashi's stamina problem just create a huge amount of bunshin and hide as they continually wear kakashi down. We havent really seen any technique from kakashi that would allow him to easily take care of such a large amount of enemies quickly. I can see Naruto overwjelming and exhausting Kakashi.

[manu]

Mass bunshin's would lead to going kyuubi. Then he could use his chakra suppressant tags to knock him out there. Naruto's mass bunshin's technique has been harder to control since the seal seems to crack the more he uses it.

[Mecca83]

I dont actually think it was the use of bunshin that cause the transformation but rather it was what the bunshin were doing. The anger and frustration from the training is what I believe triggered the transformation. Also he would have to find the right naruto to place the tag on since I doubt it would effect all of them if it were place on a clone.

[manu]

Ok from what we know Naruto goes kyuubi when he uses a lot of chakra, its already been stated that his seal is weakening so I'm going to stick with that since you can't prove that his anger has anything to do with growing tails. Since at the begining of the whole training I'm sure that Naruto wasn't angry, he was excited at first and still needed to be controlled by Yamato. The more chakra he used the more its harder for Yamato to control as shown during the Rasengan portion of the training. So yeah, it helps if you back up your ideas.

Also when Yamato was suppressing the Kyuubi in the clone during the same chapter all the clones dissappeared. The tags that Kakashi has accomplish the same thing. So yes it would affect all of them.

[Mecca83]

It also really cant be proven that extensive chakra uses leads to an actually kyuubi transformation (ie tails) since there are very few things/techniques that would ever call for that much chakra to begin with.
From the look of the pages in which naruto went kyuubi during the training and the fact that jiraiya said in the japflap scanlation of chapter 291 page 10 panel three that " With rage acting as a trigger the tails of the demon fox increase in number" I can safely assume that anger/rage does have something to do with his transformations.

Also we don't really know if the tags that jiraiya gave kakashi and yamato's method of suppressing kyuubi affect naruto in the same way. especially since it seems that the shodais necklace plays apart with yamatos suppression which imo seems to be a much more truth worthy method than kakashi's. Also since the kage bunshin that naruto had holding gaara didnt disperse after kakashi used the seal on him to seal up his kyuubi chakra in chapter 277 I can assume that if the seal was used on a bunshin that it wouldn't disperse the other bunshin. Would it effect their chakra or the real naruto's I dont know we will have to wait and see if it happens (which I doubt).

[manu]

Nicely played arguement but I'm positive we won't ever get answers. Naruto would never have to fight Kakashi and Kishimoto has no reason to go over any of this.

Off topic: At this moment I have more trust in Kakashi then Jiraiya, mainly since Jiraiya's training hadn't produced results. Kakashi on the other hand forced Naruto to extensively use his chakra in a day. Sure we've seen anger tap into the Kyuubi's chakra but that has been unrelaible. It usually leads to Naruto losing control and thats what Naruto wants to not do.

Kakashi's method of controlling the Kyuubi was to push him to his limit and use his chakra to his limits. Thats similar to what Jiraiya told Naruto to do in the Chuunin exam. (Like when he pushed him into the ditch.) So we've seen Naruto tap into the Kyuubi under two circumstances, when he's emotional and when he's exhausted his normal supply. Though it could be pointed out that everytime he's been angry he's also exhausted his chakra.

Back to topic: Going back to your idea of Naruto sending an army of bunshins. That strategy was used on the terminal bones guy and phailed. With Sharigan Naruto wouldn't be able to hide and Kakashi could formulate a plan to raikiri Naruto's heart by using his own bunshin's. Its not like Naruto would be able to find Kakashi or keep up with Kakashi's speed.

[Mecca83]

Kakashi is no kimimaru. Yes his taijutsu is excellent but he can't shot bones out of his body to deal with the army of narutos that will surround him. Also I beleive he would be able to hide since kakashi cant ignore all the bunshin that will be surrounding him and once naruto has made them there is no real way to tell the difference between the real and the fake. If Kakashi tries to match naruto by using bunshin and raikiri he will quickly tire out and if he tries to continually beat the clones he will still tire out eventually. I truly think could win this without his real body even being touched.

[king_crimson-]

Naruto doesn't believe anyone is *truly* evil, he'd want to take Itachi out yes, but not kill him.


so, why in the world he used the oodama rasengan???? does he is sooo ridicolously stupid that he actually thought that anyone could survive after being hit by that????? c'mon...

[Cyven]

Think :-\

Even someone like Naruto would know that when chasing the Akatsuki, capturing a member for possible questioning is a definite plus, so I'm quite positive Naruto merely intended to knock Itachi out cold and gauged Itachi's strength to be high enough to survive such a blow.

The only way for Naruto to display killing intent would be for someone close to him to die (or at least for Naruto to think they're gonna die) or if the kyuubi would take over.

Read my earlier posts too, it 's pretty certain to me that Naruto won't voluntarily kill another person, even his worst enemy. Kishi's a DBZ fan, and Naruto seems to be modelled after Goku in that aspect.

[Yondaime Uzumaki]

Has Naruto surpassed Kakashi?
No.

[ibblows]

He just beat someone 1 on 1 that even kakashi couldnt beat hurt once he knew he was there.

I think that pretty much puts him past kakashi. Kakashi couldnt even do it 3 on 1.

[xtine]

Has Naruto surpassed Kakashi?
No.

of course he has, i don't think kakashi can copy any of naruto jutsu
when naruto use his new jutsu, kakashi even can't see the hit

[OP_overlord]

he has one attack like that he has three others and im not exagerating that naruto still has a ways to go before he gets to kakashi level

[DarkManSharingan32]

of course he has, i don't think kakashi can copy any of naruto jutsu
when naruto use his new jutsu, kakashi even can't see the hit


I doubt Naruto can either.

[voilder]

hell yes

[hitokugutsu]

Just because naruto has one uberpowerfull jutsu I hardly doubt that naruto has surpassed kakashi.

[deathmoon]

i think yes..
coz now he can defeat kakuzu while kakashi failed to kill kakuzu with his jutsu...

[OP_overlord]

but he still only has three jutsus one attack stradgy and one strong move i dont think he is close to kakashi

kakashi would eat him ina one on one fight

[DemonX]

i think he has not surpassed Kakashi yet,but he is getting closer to his level
when his jutsu is 100% and his speed is better(and whatever he needs to improve),then he´ll be as strong or stronger as kakashi(Kakashi said it himself that when Naruto has his Jutsu done his gonna surpss him,so Naruto has to finish his jutsu^^)
And Naruto beat Kakuzu when he already lost 2(?) hearts,so he was a little exhausted(and Kakashi had to defend Ino and Chouji too)
I don´t know if Naruto(perfectly fit) could kill/defeat Kakuzu(with all his hearts)
but he´s getting better and better

[mangadictus]

surpassed kakashi in what terms? overall? i think he's even half close there yet. kakashi's youth was in the middle of the great shinobi wars so that alone gave him experience exponentially. experience is everything, naruto may have kicksarse jutsu that is incredible even to kakashi's eyes, but he pales in comparison to kakashi's battle tactics. id say tactics alone, shika owns kakashi hands down imo.

[ibblows]

umm kakuzu was olllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld. If battle experience is everything doesnt he have like 50x the amount kakashi has?

[mangadictus]

umm kakuzu was olllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld. If battle experience is everything doesnt he have like 50x the amount kakashi has?

well that's the question. naruto is not that fast as kakashi and kakuzu was even faster that kakashi. i just dont get it why kakuzu wasnt able to react when he noticed that it was not the real naruto he targeted and that naruto was behind him ready to smash his guts with rasenshuriken. or maybe shinobis just cant react that rapidly in air like shinigamis do imo.

[king_crimson-]

naruto has surpassed kakashi, or at least caught up, in close combat and the fight with kakuzu demonstrate it. He was able 2 times to get close enough to use his jutsu(which is way stronger than kakashi's strongest close-combat jutsu, chidori) against kakuzu, who has ALOT more experience then kakashi, who is faster then kakashi and is clearly stronger than kakashi in colse to mid range fight...

now, i don't think he has overall surpassed kakashi, firstly because a ninja is not just a fighter, and naruto doesn't look as good as kakashi in stealth or information gathering...plus naruto is still not a complete fighter, since he cannot fight in long range...or at least, he didn't showed us how he can...

[gcd]

Nops, but Fuuton Rasengan rocks.

[voilder]

y do u guys thinks speed is everything? a turtle can beat a rabbit. kakashi has more expierence? kakuzu has even more expierence than kakashi but he still got owned by naruto. saying kakuzu only has 3 hearts left... come on naruto was even in worst condition, cant u see the justu can also hurt its host. i cant image how naruto was hurting by this justu during the 24 hours training. i bet if kakashi was doing the same thing he could be pretty much end up in the hospital again :smile-big

[Pevee]

i'm not sure whether I should say yes or no:

Naruto just learned this sick jutsu that can kill kakashi with one hit.
but
Kakashi is faster (sorry to repeat that) and is more experienced. That is, he's likely to look into Naruto's plan than Naruto into his.

[Marq]

In terms of raw power? Yes, Naruto has surpassed Kakashi. However, overall? No. Naruto isn't on par with Kakashi. Not to mention, seeing as the sharingan is a double-edge sword for kakashi, it depletes his chakra and stamina at rate faster than normal, and he still manages to take on enemies efficiently. (not exactly, but I think you get the meaning) Obviously, it will only be a matter of time til Naruto does surpass Kakashi, but it's going to take more than creating a destructive jutsu to surpass someone.

[OP_overlord]

especialy now that kakshi has the MS but that takes alot of chakra away

[voilder]

there are no such thing as overall capility in the ninja world. all the ninja has their own unique way of fighting style. gai only knows taijustu but he is stronger than kakashi, if u think kakashi's ms could take on naruto then u are wrong. all naruto have to do avoid to look at his eyes and wait until kakashi drain out which only took him 3 seconds and then naruto just have to stand next to kakashi and push him with a finger like what tsunade did in the previous arc. :smile-big

[deathshadow25]

I think he has surpassed Kakashi

did you not see him during the bell test, While Kakashi did turn the jutsu back on Naruto like the first time NAruto got Kakashi with another clone.

So that kind of ability combined with his unpredicttable movements + his new rasenshiriken he's awesome btw now that he's above Kakashi does that mean he's above Kabuto as well

[segua]

That's hard to say. At Naruto's current level, if it were a death match, Kakashi would still win. Though Naruto may have gotten stronger and have much more chakra than Kakashi, Kakashi has experience and his deadly brain.

[voilder]

That's hard to say. At Naruto's current level, if it were a death match, Kakashi would still win. Though Naruto may have gotten stronger and have much more chakra than Kakashi, Kakashi has experience and his deadly brain.

do u think kakashi is really smarter than naruto? i mean naruto has outsmarted the most expierence shinobi in the world twice. i for one thinks naruto is smarter

[segua]

Naruto does not have a high intelligence quota. What Naruto has is creativity which makes up for his low I.Q.

But as we have seen with the fight with Kakuzu, Naruto still needed assistance and Kakuzu was well worn down. If Kakashi and Yamoto stepped in to help Naruto out, Naruto would've die.

[grandmasterm]

I disagree with all of u cause as I see it if kakashi can use his sharingan then everything is fair game so naruto using kyubis power is fair and if he can kill the sannins in his 4 tailed form then he can beat kakashi and if u compare them without there extra powers then whats the point ur comparing there power in the manga not IF they didnt have them.

[deathshadow25]

I disagree with all of u cause as I see it if kakashi can use his sharingan then everything is fair game so naruto using kyubis power is fair and if he can kill the sannins in his 4 tailed form then he can beat kakashi and if u compare them without there extra powers then whats the point ur comparing there power in the manga not IF they didnt have them.


Thats tru Tsunade and Sakura would be nothing without their super strength.

You can't compare characters by giving the others handicaps like Kakashi without a sharingan or Naruto without kyuubi. cause if they were fighting eack other they would pull out every jutsu in the book to take the other one down.

[Ishiken]

Naruto is not stupid. You can be incredibly intelligent and not have a proper education. Albert Einstein had absolutely abyssmal grades and had severe problems doing math. Naruto simply lacks a proper ninja education. Once you fully explain something to Naruto he learns it quite quickly, this does not make him an idiot it simply means as Sakura and Kakashi have stated that Naruto needs to sit down and crack open some books.

[king_crimson-]

oh well, to end it, if naruto learn to control 4 tails, he would surpass kakashi in terms of combat capabilities. period :D

now, we don't know how much of kyubi's power naruto used against kakuzu :D

[enlightened monkey]

Naruto better than Kakashi? That's an interesting idea.....when one factors in Naruto's new fighting style of kage bunshin intel gathering and such, then it becomes a much more even match. Add to the fact that he surpassed Kakuzu's defences, defences that he used to grab Kakashi and throw him to the ground, and I begin to think that the game can be called rather fair.

In terms of book intelligence, Kakashi will ALWAYS surpass Naruto whether we like it or not. But in terms of cunning, and battle intelligence (the latter in which I believe Naruto's 8 to Kakashi's 10 while the cunning to me stands at about Naruto's 10 to Kakashi's 5)....we can say that it balances one another out.

Kakashi has the sharingan, which makes things rather difficult for Naruto. Naruto, on the other hand, has a large amount of chakra and his new fighting style, and so while I'd LIKE to say that Naruto's stronger than Kakashi (although power wise he now blows Kakashih away), I'd say in terms of a real fight they're about equal....although one can argue that if Naruto were to find/create an opening on Kakashi using clones.....hmmm......

[segua]

I disagree with all of u cause as I see it if kakashi can use his sharingan then everything is fair game so naruto using kyubis power is fair and if he can kill the sannins in his 4 tailed form then he can beat kakashi and if u compare them without there extra powers then whats the point ur comparing there power in the manga not IF they didnt have them.


Correction, the Kyubi fourth tail form puts Naruto on par with the San-nin. Or rather yet, the San-nin are on par with a mini-Kyubi. But you have overlooked something, if Naruto does show signs of turing into a mini-Kyubi, all Kakashi has to do is place the seal that Jiraiya developed onto Naruto. This would render the Kyubi chakra nulled.

In terms of sheer destructive power, Naruto has already surpassed Kakashi. But overall, Naruto still lacks in comparison to Kakashi.

But Kakashi does have one weakness that Naruto knows and could exploit and that is by blowing the ending of Kakashi's favorite book.

But let's not forget, Kakashi could also use kage bushins to his advantage also.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Naruto better than Kakashi? That's an interesting idea.....when one factors in Naruto's new fighting style of kage bunshin intel gathering and such, then it becomes a much more even match. Add to the fact that he surpassed Kakuzu's defences, defences that he used to grab Kakashi and throw him to the ground, and I begin to think that the game can be called rather fair.

In terms of book intelligence, Kakashi will ALWAYS surpass Naruto whether we like it or not. But in terms of cunning, and ba
ttle intelligence (the latter in which I believe Naruto's 8 to Kakashi's 10 while the cunning to me stands at about Naruto's 10 to Kakashi's 5)....we can say that it balances one another out.

Kakashi has the sharingan, which makes things rather difficult for Naruto. Naruto, on the other hand, has a large amount of chakra and his new fighting style, and so while I'd LIKE to say that Naruto's stronger than Kakashi (although power wise he now blows Kakashih away), I'd say in terms of a real fight they're about equal....although one can argue that if Naruto were to find/create an opening on Kakashi using clones.....hmmm......


Another point to add on is that technically Naruto has the elemental advantage...
But i'm sure if it ever came down to a Raikiri, it would be over before Naruto realized it.

[enlightened monkey]

Kakashi using kage bunshins to his advantage would spell the end of four Raikiris -- something he needs in order to come close to matching Naruto's elemental rasengan.

darkmansharingan.....errr.....you DO realize that Naruto's jutsu will completely destroy the raikiri, right? Or maybe I misinterpreted. But uhm, your quote basically sums up my feelings on the topic so....yup.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Kakashi using kage bunshins to his advantage would spell the end of four Raikiris -- something he needs in order to come close to matching Naruto's elemental rasengan.

darkmansharingan.....errr.....you DO realize that Naruto's jutsu will completely destroy the raikiri, right? Or maybe I misinterpreted. But uhm, your quote basically sums up my feelings on the topic so....yup.


I obviously don't mean a head-to-head occurance. lol... Definetly a suicide maneuver.
But this is because Kakashi would never use it as Sasuke did...going head to head against his opponents jutsu.
If he used it... i can nearly guarantee the life of Naruto would end.... only because Kakshi would only use it in a situation where it would connect without doubt.

[enlightened monkey]

That situation would be hard to come by, with information-gathering clones to deal with. It's not exactly like Naruto's just some kid who charges at you and deals with things later anymore. And....didn't he already outflank a bunshin of Kakashi's once....a bunshin with the same abilities as Kakashi? True, Kakashi's faster than Naruto but when you're dealing with a bunch of the kid, things change just a bit. I don't think there's such a thing with Naruto anymore as "hitting without a doubt"....except his first wave of info-gathering clones.[br]Posted on: February 11, 2007, 10:53:51 PM_________________________________________________I keep calling them info-gathering clones because that's what they are. Naruto is now capable of figuring out Kakashi's speed, explicitly storing that exact information away, and then supplementing the situation with the amount of clones he needs. So when you think about it, and knowing that Naruto's now got that fighting style down pat, I think it's safe to assume that the fight between him and his sensei would take quite a while to wrap up. And who would win? I'm not so sure anymore, although I still favour Kakashi for the moment.

[OP_overlord]

yeah and the fact that he can make 1000 strong colones is not good for kakashi especialy if they were all one or two tailed

[PredatorNar]

Correction, the Kyubi fourth tail form puts Naruto on par with the San-nin. Or rather yet, the San-nin are on par with a mini-Kyubi. But you have overlooked something, if Naruto does show signs of turing into a mini-Kyubi, all Kakashi has to do is place the seal that Jiraiya developed onto Naruto. This would render the Kyubi chakra nulled.

I believe the 4-tailed mini Kyuubi is on par or most likely stronger than the Sannins. If the 4-tailed Kyuubi wasn't stopped, he would have eventually killed Orochimaru since he put Orochimaru fully on defense and Orochimaru still had his hands full but could not even harm the 4-tails in the least. In terms of endurance, power and speed, the 4-tails would blow Orochimaru out of the water.
Kakashi can't put or take away the seal on Naruto. It was stated before that only a person at the Sannin level could make or take away the seal on Naruto. Furthermore, Jiraiya didn't make it. As you saw, Orochimaru was the one who put the seal on Naruto and Jiraiya was the one who unsealed him. The only shinobi to our knowledge who probably isn't at the Sannin level that can put restraints on the Kyuubi is Yamato. Kakashi would just have to fight to 4-tails, unfortunately for him.

[segua]

I believe the 4-tailed mini Kyuubi is on par or most likely stronger than the Sannins. If the 4-tailed Kyuubi wasn't stopped, he would have eventually killed Orochimaru since he put Orochimaru fully on defense and Orochimaru still had his hands full but could not even harm the 4-tails in the least. In terms of endurance, power and speed, the 4-tails would blow Orochimaru out of the water.
Kakashi can't put or take away the seal on Naruto. It was stated before that only a person at the Sannin level could make or take away the seal on Naruto. Furthermore, Jiraiya didn't make it. As you saw, Orochimaru was the one who put the seal on Naruto and Jiraiya was the one who unsealed him. The only shinobi to our knowledge who probably isn't at the Sannin level that can put restraints on the Kyuubi is Yamato. Kakashi would just have to fight to 4-tails, unfortunately for him.


No you misunderstood what I wrote. I was talking about the paper seal that Jiraiya had come up with to stop the Kyubi procession which he gave some to Kakashi.

But Kakashi doesn't need four raikiris. He could just catch Naruto's arm and fling Naruto. Recall how Kakashi did this to Sasuke's Chidori and Naruto's rasengen? Though with the wind imbued rasengen, it would prove much more difficult to do. Also, you got to go for a direct attach with rasengen. With the elemental rasengen, Naruto has to catch Kakashi off guard. All it takes is a well aimed hit by either one to finish off the other one.

Also, 1,000 clones versus Kakashi might be interesting. Though Kakashi might just call up his nin-dogs and use one bushin for the job. Don't forget that Kakashi knows well over 1,000 jutsu in his arsenal.

[voilder]

Naruto does not have a high intelligence quota. What Naruto has is creativity which makes up for his low I.Q.

But as we have seen with the fight with Kakuzu, Naruto still needed assistance and Kakuzu was well worn down. If Kakashi and Yamoto stepped in to help Naruto out, Naruto would've die.

if naruto's justu didnt fizzle kakuzu would die too

[PredatorNar]

I'm pretty sure Kakuzu's speed is at least on par with Kakashi. Remember when Kakashi Rakiri'ed one of Kakuzu's heart and Kakuzu stood there in pain. Kakashi immediately went after Hidan but before he could hit Hidan, Kakuzu appeared in front of Kakashi and kicked him back into a tree.

Now since Kakashi was already running, Kakuzu would have to be fast to catch up with Kakashi and get in front of him (He'd have to be faster than Kakashi was being at that time), which means that Kakuzu is at least on par with Kakashi's speed.

Now, since Kakuzu is at least on par with Kakashi and Naruto got the best of Kakuzu when Kakuzu is at that speed (I'm pretty sure one more heart wouldn't haved increased Kakuzu's speed), then I believe Naruto can probably trick Kakashi as well.

One arguement can be: Well isn't Kakashi smart enough not to fall for it? My answer is: Well Kakuzu is more battle intelligent than Kakashi (his ability to decipher Shikamaru's plan and apply a counter-measure in a matter of seconds) and he still fell victim to Naruto's maneuver. The same can be said in terms of experience.

Instead of putting down Kakuzu's abilities because Naruto was the one who took him down, I think Kishi was implying how strong, fast and battle intelligence Naruto now is because he was able to take down an Akatsuki member who is at least on par with Kakashi's speed, more intelligence and more experienced than Kakashi. Now, some may say Kakuzu is worn out and that may be true, but it doesn't seem his speed was hindered.

[Ishiken]

If its a short fight Kakashi would win, in a long fight Naruto would simply out last and overwhelm Kakashi.

[segarraramon]

Well let me say that in the end naruto will surpass Kakashi but that day is not here yet. I will say this naruto full fighting power is awesome and maybe against the same powerful opponents naruto may win more times than kakashi but in a one on one battle naruto will never win because he can’t fight without emotion and Kakashi can. So in a one on one kakashi will be able to kill naruto wile naruto can’t fight against some one he loves. And he loves his sansei.

[OP_overlord]

that and kakshi knows all his jutus's and stradgies he could just chill in a bush and attack naruto from afar and naruto would lose

[enlightened monkey]

Long-range attacks can be seen from afar. I don't think it'd work so well. Although MS would be pretty hard to avoid, although....clones throwing clones away from the blast and such may help, among other countless possible maneuvers.

[voilder]

kakashi has already stated naruto will surpass him during the training. so i think during certain stage of the kb training naruto has already surpass kakashi. maybe after he combined the wind and the rasengan. so for those who still admire kakashis strength should just face the fact that naruto has already gone beyond kakashi sensei :p

[segua]

kakashi has already stated naruto will surpass him during the training. so i think during certain stage of the kb training naruto has already surpass kakashi. maybe after he combined the wind and the rasengan. so for those who still admire kakashis strength should just face the fact that naruto has already gone beyond kakashi sensei :p


I don't think Naruto has surpassed Kakashi completely. In terms of charka and destructive power, than yes, Naruto has surpassed Kakashi but things won't be decided until after a fight.

[voilder]

I don't think Naruto has surpassed Kakashi completely. In terms of charka and destructive power, than yes, Naruto has surpassed Kakashi but things won't be decided until after a fight.

i know kakashi is a such cool character its a sad thing for u people to see a such cool dude slipping from the top. but the manga itself says naruto is strongerhan kakashi then he is indeed stronger. u guys should stop bubbling around and move on

[segua]

i know kakashi is a such cool character its a sad thing for u people to see a such cool dude slipping from the top. but the manga itself says naruto is strongerhan kakashi then he is indeed stronger. u guys should stop bubbling around and move on


LOL.

Naruto's potential far outshines that of Kakashi. But if it's a fight to the death, and at Naruto's current level, it's still Kakashi.

[Tiger D. Kasthuren]

Like once said during the chuunin exams ... "If you can control both heaven and earth, you'll become truly strong (and of course if u protect someone u love bla bla bla...").
Naruto IS gaining some knowledge now fortunately, but he's still way behind Kakashi. Of course he'll one day surpass him. He'll of course become the nr. 1 ninja, the hokage. No doubt about it. It always end happily, not...?
But well, what I would like to know is this:
Who's strongest ... Kakashi or Sasuke?
When team 7 or was it 2 (Yamato, Naruto, Sakura, Sai) meets up with Sasuke, he asks for Kakashi, like he feels superior to him. I can't take that. I would like to see Kakashi beat up Sasuke's ass, but maybe he really isn't strong enough? What do you think? Is there some thread concerning this?

[OP_overlord]

i think that they would be even now a days and that scares me cause naruto will get eaten by sasuke and well i wanna see a good long bloody fight between them kakashi would win just cause he has the MS but prob with the help of chidori curent sasuke would beat him in close combat unless kakashi is always holding back (and we know that sasuke is cause oro told him not to use that jutsu)

naruto needs more training all around taijutsu, genjutsu, all the other jutsu's he is no where near kakshi's level of fighting he was head of the ANBU at 15 so hes a beast
eventualy naruto will surpass him after he learns more of the basics and makes his own moves/gets a new stradegy

[voilder]

LOL.

Naruto's potential far outshines that of Kakashi. But if it's a fight to the death, and at Naruto's current level, it's still Kakashi.

"during the training u will be able to surpass me naruto!" says kakashi. thats what i picked up from the manga so u cant not deny the fact that naruto has already surpassed kakashi since he has already finished his training

[crack]

u got the first part right about kakashi saying that sentence but u r forgetting that naruto didn't complete his training

[OP_overlord]

hes only at 50% done of his training so not yet but soonish and after the training he will have more to go through to get to sasukes level so hes not even 50 % done maybe 25%

[silvermane]

we already know that naruto has more chakra than kakashi ( kakashi himself says this ) but having chakra and winning a fight are 2 very different things. firstly we know kakashi wont do something like counter naruto's rasengan with his own. secondly he's like cheetah vs tortoise in speed and analytical skills wise kakashi is the best in konoha ( from what sakura says during the second bells test he's even better than shikamaru ) all this considered and the experience and sharingan combined ( even without the mangekoyu sharingan ) kakashi owns naruto. simply not comparable yet.
how can you compare someone who has over 1000 jutsus up his sleeve and command over all elements ( once again kakashi can use all elements its been said i forgot which chapter ) against naruto who has started using one element and has like 5 jutsus.
almost the same as tsunade vs naruto.... maybe worse....!!!

[PredatorNar]

I wasn't going to take sides on this one. I was just gonna simply state some facts and unbiased interpretations and let everyone else discuss it, but I think I want to step back into this. Some of you may recognize the type of analysis I'm about to do from my "Strength of Akatsuki" thread in the Akatsuki section.

I will analyze Kakashi and Naruto in the following categories: Speed, Chakra Control, Chakra Capacity, Endurance, Battle Intelligence, Resourcefulness, Jutsu, Elemental (if applicable)

Kakashi VS Naruto:
Speed: Some of you may automatically put Kakashi over Naruto in this category, however from what I saw, I may not be so fast to agree. From the fight, I think Kakuzu is probably faster than Kakashi. Remember when Kakashi used his Raikiri to pierce the first of Kakuzu's 5 hearts? He thought Kakuzu was dead, so Kakashi immediately went after Hidan with another Raikiri, however in the middle of his running Kakuzu appears in front of him and kicks him back into the tree.
Now since Kakashi was running full speed to kill Hidan (We know he doesn't have all day to hold Chidori so he would want to run his fastest), wouldn't Kakuzu have to be faster to catch him? Kakuzu was behind Kakashi and if he managed to get in front of Kakashi, it means Kakuzu is faster than him.
Now, Naruto used his clones to get the best of Kakuzu even though Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi. I'm not necessarily saying Naruto is faster than Kakuzu or Kakashi, but seeing as Naruto only needed 3 clones to nullify the speed factor of Kakuzu, I don't think Naruto is at such a big disadvantage in speed versus Kakashi.

Chakra Control: In my opinion, this has been the biggest problem with Naruto. Early in the manga he did learn some chakra control but he never really had a full successful training session to teach him proper control. Ebisu was supposed to teach him but got interrupted by Jiraiya and then Naruto was made to control Kyuubi instead of controlling his own chakra.
We aren't really sure how good Naruto's chakra control is after the training (although I think it must be very good by now), but we do know Kakashi definitely has impressive chakra control. We will have to wait to see if Naruto has good chakra control right now, but if he does, then he has one up on Kakashi because Naruto has a bigger amount of Chakra (plus the Kyuubi chakra) to control.

Chakra Capacity: Naruto has a bigger chakra capacity (even without the Kyuubi) and it has been stated multiple times. This category leads into the next category...

Endurance: ...I explained in my other thread that increased endurance equals more stamina and in the Narutoverse, more stamina equals more chakra (this was explained in the manga/anime). So this is twice as good for Naruto because it means he has a larger source of chakra and he can last longer in battle.

Battle Intelligence: This is the category that causes most of this commotion. Honestly, I am not convinced that Kakashi shows a lot of battle intelligence. I mean, he did get caught in Zabuza's water prison and Zabuza is a lot weaker than Kakashi. Furthermore, I'm not sure if using the MS recklessly on a moving Deidara was smarter than just using a Raikiri and running up and blasting Deidara. The MS did do good as it transported the explosive Deidara clone elsewhere, but still Kakashi's decision to use the MS over the Raikiri on an escaping Deidara was reckless. If he missed, he'd be wasting a lot of chakra which could take him out of the fight early.
Naruto, on the other hand has shown numerous times where he is smart in battle. Of course, he does do a lot of stupid things especially when he faced Haku and Kimimaro. Now I don't like supporting the opinion of Naruto being stupid, but I have to say, repeatedly sending in clones against an opponent that can easily defeat them is pretty stupid. But, his intelligence in other fights (VS Zabuza, VS ninjas in Forest of Death, VS Neji, VS Kakuzu) shows that he can be very intelligent when he wants to.
Still with the points I showed, I think this category is still pure debate until we get more chances to see Kakashi and Naruto in battle.

Resourcefulness: I don't think we've seen any evidence of either of these fighters using their surroundings or situation to their advantage. These two use their own power and personal techniques they don't take advantage of the environment they're fighting in. At least, not yet. So we cannot really compare them in this category.
Wait, scratch that. Naturo versus Neji, when he dug underground. It can be, to some extent, considered being resourceful, but the type of resourcefulness I'm talking about is like when Shikamaru used the hole Naruto made to trap Temari.

Jutsu: Many have said that Kakashi knows over 1000 jutsus and it's true. However, it doesn't mean all these jutsus are all-powerful jutsus. Doesn't it seem weird that he knows so many jutsus yet he chooses to use a select few in his fights? That tells me that Chidori and Sharingan are basically the most powerful moves he has, however it doesn't say much. As stated before, Kakashi doesn't have a proper body for the Sharingan, so he cannot make any mistakes or take too long or he's in big trouble. Concerning Chidori, we already know Naruto can defeat that if he wants to.
Naruto, like Kakashi, re-uses certain jutsus because he prefers them in battle (i.e. Kage Bunshin and Rasengan). Now that Naruto has successfully master Kage Bunshin and incorporated his analytical skill into it, it has become VERY powerful in his hands. And of course, Naruto's Rasengan nowadays can pretty much kill anyone. Unless Kakashi can use some jutsus to kill Naruto quickly, which I doubt especially if Naruto can utilize the Kage Bunshins, Kakashi is in trouble because Kakashi isn't built for drawn-out battles.

**[[Note: Kakashi MAY be able to use the Sharingan to see through the clones, but it doesn't matter if he can't get rid of the clones in time. Furthermore, the clones would occupy him and Naruto can blast Kakashi when necessary. And as I said before, Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi and Naruto still got the better of Kakuzu.]]**

Elemental: So far we haven't seen any fire jutsus from Kakashi, but Kakashi's fa vorite jutsu has a lightning affinity which is a disadvantage to Naruto's natural affinity. Head-on clash, Naruto would win on the elements. Furthermore, I don't believe the suiton and doton attacks that Kakashi has would be able to stop Naruto's Fuuton Rasengan.[br]Posted on: February 14, 2007, 04:21:58 PM_________________________________________________

we already know that naruto has more chakra than kakashi ( kakashi himself says this ) but having chakra and winning a fight are 2 very different things. firstly we know kakashi wont do something like counter naruto's rasengan with his own. secondly he's like cheetah vs tortoise in speed and analytical skills wise kakashi is the best in konoha ( from what sakura says during the second bells test he's even better than shikamaru ) all this considered and the experience and sharingan combined ( even without the mangekoyu sharingan ) kakashi owns naruto. simply not comparable yet.
how can you compare someone who has over 1000 jutsus up his sleeve and command over all elements ( once again kakashi can use all elements its been said i forgot which chapter ) against naruto who has started using one element and has like 5 jutsus.
almost the same as tsunade vs naruto.... maybe worse....!!!


Kakashi is NOT more analytical than Shikamaru. Hell no. How can you listen to Sakura? Sakura has seen Shikamaru in action like ONCE. Sakura didn't see how Shikamaru incorporated Kakashi into his initial plan in like two seconds and how Shikamaru took down an Akatsuki member on his own.

[segarraramon]

people its not this training that’s important its the fact that narutos training stile has now become more powerful than the sharingan. Let me explain the sharingan can only copy a jutsu, so in order to master any jutsu he must first see it. Of curse sauske is a genius so he will learn jutsus quickly and efficiently. He may also acquire the MS and that way be able to manipulate time and mater so he will learn powerful justsu and techniques that way. This applies to kakashi since he also is a genius and has the sharingan and MS. naruto on the other hand is learning thru creation inventive study practice and watching others. This is the way everyone learns but naruto can have in terms of study and learning time over 1000 lives that is more than what orochimaru or even kakuso that has probably learned more jutsus than even Kakashy and the professor the third hokage. The power of the learning technique enables naruto to gain the experience a thousand times per try. The really scary part its not that naruto is getting stronger forget about smarts or the new jutsu the scary part is his chakra. I believe that narutos chakra is continually in training since it fights whit the kiuby chakra continuously, that’s why when he divides his chakra in mass shadow clone the kiuby power finds it easy to overcome the host but that will also be under control if training continues. so to the topic Kakashi can bet naruto and so can sauske but not because power or knowledge because sooner or later he will be more powerful than either, the question posted is whether naruto can beat kakashi in a one on one, never because naruto will never under any circumstance fight any of his important people to the death. naruto is emotion and he is trying hard to prove that he is not a monster and only monsters have the power to kill those how are important to them, and unless he gains that he can never win against sauske or kakashy. That’s why he will always try a different way to get sauske back never will you see naruto look for a life or death fight with sauske or kakashy.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Kakashi VS Naruto:
Speed: Some of you may automatically put Kakashi over Naruto in this category, however from what I saw, I may not be so fast to agree. From the fight, I think Kakuzu is probably faster than Kakashi. Remember when Kakashi used his Raikiri to pierce the first of Kakuzu's 5 hearts? He thought Kakuzu was dead, so Kakashi immediately went after Hidan with another Raikiri, however in the middle of his running Kakuzu appears in front of him and kicks him back into the tree.
Now since Kakashi was running full speed to kill Hidan (We know he doesn't have all day to hold Chidori so he would want to run his fastest), wouldn't Kakuzu have to be faster to catch him? Kakuzu was behind Kakashi and if he managed to get in front of Kakashi, it means Kakuzu is faster than him.
Now, Naruto used his clones to get the best of Kakuzu even though Kakuzu is faster than Kakashi. I'm not necessarily saying Naruto is faster than Kakuzu or Kakashi, but seeing as Naruto only needed 3 clones to nullify the speed factor of Kakuzu, I don't think Naruto is at such a big disadvantage in speed versus Kakashi.


Naruto wasn't dealing with Kakuzu's speed... he was dealing with the amount of clones it would take to get around Kakuzu's tentacles. Remember that Kakuzu was pretty much stationary for the entire fight.
You also need to remember that Kakashi was able to move at a speed that Kakuzu wasn't even able to recognize. Although it WAS an ambush, this still shows Kakashi's speed.

And also remember...that at the time when Kakuzu and Kakashi squared off... that was after three or so Raikiris.


Endurance: ...I explained in my other thread that increased endurance equals more stamina and in the Narutoverse, more stamina equals more chakra (this was explained in the manga/anime). So this is twice as good for Naruto because it means he has a larger source of chakra and he can last longer in battle.

That may be so... but nearly all of Naruto's jutsu are hard-hitting jutsu that drain massive amounts of chakra. In a standing fight where Kakashi and Naruto trade blows... yeah, Naruto has a slight advantage (if he isn't knocked out) because he can take alot of punishment. But Kakashi's jutsu repertoire is vast and balanced... as long as he doesn't use MS inneffectively he should be able to last long enough to land the definitive blow.


Resourcefulness: I don't think we've seen any evidence of either of these fighters using their surroundings or situation to their advantage. These two use their own power and personal techniques they don't take advantage of the environment they're fighting in. At least, not yet. So we cannot really compare them in this category.
Wait, scratch that. Naturo versus Neji, when he dug underground. It can be, to some extent, considered being resourceful, but the type of resourcefulness I'm talking about is like when Shikamaru used the hole Naruto made to trap Temari.

How about when Kakashi used Zabuza's own Kirigakure no jutsu against him? [Blood on Zabuza +Dog Summoning]
Or using his cover in the trees to complete the ambush on Kakuzu? [Raikiri]



Elemental: So far we haven't seen any fire jutsus from Kakashi, but Kakashi's favorite jutsu has a lightning affinity which is a disadvantage to Naruto's natural affinity. Head-on clash, Naruto would win on the elements. Furthermore, I don't believe the suiton and doton attacks that Kakashi has would be able to stop Naruto's Fuuton Rasengan.[br]Posted on: February 14, 2007, 04:21:58 PM_________________________________________________
Kakashi is NOT more analytical than Shikamaru. Hell no. How can you listen to Sakura? Sakura has seen Shikamaru in action like ONCE. Sakura didn't see how Shikamaru incorporated Kakashi into his initial plan in like two seconds and how Shikamaru took down an Akatsuki member on his own.


Well, if all Kakashi has to worry about is the Rasen-Shuriken... then Kakashi's fight will be that much easier. Kakashi knows that Naruto will be using his clones... and to dispell them before he can form his jutsu. Shoot... Kakashi might even be able to seal Naruto's chakra.

[PredatorNar]

DMS: Yea, I forgot about that part (talking about Kakashi's resourcefulness vs Zabuza :P) I was too lazy to think about all the fights in my head.

Anyway, yea Kakuzu didn't see Kakashi coming (partly because he didn't even know Kakashi was around), but it doesn't mean Kakashi is faster than Kakuzu. Kakuzu is faster by the reason I mentioned.
Kakashi used his Raikiris ALL against Kakuzu, so that's not an excuse :P One to take out one of Kakuzu's hearts and the others to nullify Kakuzu's lightning attack.

Naruto can take more punishment, but as you see he isn't wasting chakra anymore. Naruto is being more efficient with his moves. Plus, Kakashi doesn't have a long time to land a blow because as we know, Kakashi's moves drain his chakra a lot and if he doesn't win fast, he will succumb to his opponent.

Kakashi has to worry about RasenShuriken definitely, but you know that Naruto can create the RasenShuriken really fast right? I mean, when Kakuzu jumped, Naruto stopped and when Kakuzu was at the peek of his jump, Naruto came out with his RasenShuriken. Now THAT'S fast!

Oh yea, Naruto DID test Kakuzu's speed if you recheck. But anyway, my point was it doesn't matter if Naruto's opponent is fast, because he can just use the clones to take advantage of them. I mean if Kakuzu, with his hundreds of chakra strings and 2 masks couldn't take down the STRONGER clones (Remember Naruto is stronger now so his clones are stronger) by the time Naruto got to Kakuzu's chest, then how the hell do you expect Kakashi to?

EDIT: Btw, Kakashi using a cover to get the jump on Kakuzu isn't really resourcefulness. I'm pretty sure that's a basic move for ninjas as you see in the early chapters. Besides, Kakuzu was dealing with Shikamaru's VERY impressive plan and a big rolling Chouji.

[segua]

If you want to analyze speed and other things, go all the way back to the start of the the time skip where Kakashi is testing Naruto and Sakura. Did they get the bell before hand? No. It was only after they figured out Kakashi's weak point (which was absurd). The only difference from the Naruto then to the Naruto now is that Naruto has completed 50% of his "ulitmate jutsu" and learned how to effectively use the kage bushins. But you had two v. one. And Kakashi was able to evade them.

Another issue is that Naruto and Kakashi has battle information about each other and could devise ways to defeat the other one. There are only two ways I imagine Naruto defeating Kakashi and the first one is by spoiling the end of the Icha Icha book series. This will leave an openning for Naruto to deal a powerful blow. The second is to outlast a sharingan-active Kakashi.

Also, sharingan cannot be used to tell the clones apart from the real person. WIth it, Kakashi could use it to defeat Naruto's taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu. Also, it is foolhardy for Naruto to attack Kakashi head on.

Also, your chakra control I don't know what you are trying to get at. Chakra control relates more with the efficiency of using your chakra with little to no waste at all. As for Naruto's own chakra control, I don't know how much better it has gotten, but if he was with Jiraiya, Jiraiya probably tried to maximized Naruto's chakra amount rather than have Naruto carefully rationing out his chakra.

Just a reminder, everytime Naruto faced an Akatsuki member or two, someone else was there by Naruto's side.

Also recall Kakashi's and Naruto's chase on Deidara? Who was the one that came up with the plan to overtake Deidara? Wasn't it Kakashi? Naruto on the other hand was playing right into the hand of Deidara.

Also, having a large arsenal of jutsu gives Kakashi a lot of flexibility as to jutsu selection and application.

[DarkManSharingan32]

Slightly off-topic.
But imagine if Kakashi possesed a tailed-beast.

He would be unstoppable...
He would train himself to near God like levels.

[grandmasterm]

Yo this arguement is over cause in the new manga kakashi said that naruto has surpased him so kakashi fans I am sorry but one more person has surpased kakashi.

[Saint Jimmy]

I really doubt that naruto can beat Kakashi as he is now. Perhaps in a couple of years he´d surpass Kakashi, but not already. Kakashi has the advantage of the Sharingan so he can see Naruto´s moves and adapt to them.

[Gold Knight]

Naruto has surpassed Kakashi - in terms of raw power. He also has an uncanny knack for setting the enemy up to be a sitting duck for his attacks.

But otherwise, no. In the Rasengan duel, Kakashi was using an attack that he would probably not have used in most situations. He was also allowing himself to go in a straight direction, so that they could see what happened when their Rasengans met.

We've seen Naruto and Sakura have a heck of a time trying to beat Kakashi in the second bell test, and they had to trick him into closing his eyes in order to steal the bells. (What would they have done if Jiraiya hadn't written that new book!) But 'til then, they weren't having much luck. Why?

Kakashi's intelligence, speed, experience, dodging ability (largely due to the Sharingan) and arsenal of attacks.

Naruto's new Fuuton Rasengan and RasenShuriken may seem to have the ability to negate the Sharingan, but Kakashi still has to be hit by it. That is something I don't think Naruto can still do.

But in terms of raw power, yeah, Naruto's on top now - not to mention he always had more chakra and stamina.

[amg]

kakkashi lover he said it himself come on :notrust

[OP_overlord]

grandmasterm we are not allowed to talk about the manga right after it comes out

[Gold Knight]

Thread locked until the weekend's passed, btw, due to the recent developments in the last chapter.