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Eyefarted2
February 27, 2007, 11:22 PM
I think ichigo is overrated because if u think about it, the author just basically "lets" ichigo win. Ichigo only has one attack. His bankai is even more stupid. He just has super speed and the same attack as his shikai. After all this time, he still didnt find out any new abilities his bankai has.

Also, why does ppl think that ichgo is stronger than characters like naruto and luffy?
Naruto and luffy has the kyubi and gears 2, 3 while ichgo only has his hollow form, which is like sauske's cs-it will eventually consume him if he uses it for too long.

so why do people think ichgo is so strong?

Silver_Archer
February 27, 2007, 11:25 PM
Super speed and one cool projectile weapon. That is pretty much all you need. Realistically speaking, you don't really need much past the super speed, if you learn to use it effectively.

hmalik1003
February 28, 2007, 07:29 AM
lol simple. y do ppl think he can beat naruto and luffy. well because they cant tocuh him, remmber you can't harm a shinigami if your just a regular human. they prolly can't even see him. So they would have to be able to hit him and see him to beat him

Cyven
February 28, 2007, 09:42 AM
"just" super speed?

you seem to forget that you cannot hit what you cannot catch... ;)

His speed is such that not even Byakuya can keep up with it (as displayed when Ichigo had the tip of his blade against Byakuya's neck)

That's how you use the speed effectively, strike before your opponent can counter it.

Naruto and Luffy can do what they want, but if they can't catch up with Ichigo's speed, there's no way they can beat him.

bax
February 28, 2007, 11:19 AM
I think ichigo is overrated because if u think about it, the author just basically "lets" ichigo win. Ichigo only has one attack.


Heh.. If you just want to count Ichigo's victory, then I would disagree. Ichigo lost many times too. Most notable against Byakuya and against Grimmjow (even with his Vaizard form).

And how many times he was saved? Against Byakuya by Yoruichi and against Grimjow by Rukia.

And one attack is not overrated as well. Byakuya basically has one attack as well. His Shikai and Bankai attacks are fundamentally the same. Byakuya's second Bankai form, is just another standard sword fighting method, only stronger.

Yes, Byakuya has Kidou. But remember, Byakuya is an experienced captain who has lived far longer than Ichigo. Plus he is from a noble family and been trained with Shinigami arts since like forever. While for Ichigo, just for how long he actually been a Shinigami? Compared to Byakuya's experience, Ichigo's experience is just not enough.

Ichimaru Gin n Tonic
February 28, 2007, 01:41 PM
What makes Ichigo strong is not just because his dad is a shinigami or because his reiatsu is strong. His will and determination is what makes Ichigo, like any other shonen character, strong. He doesnt just fight for himself, he fights for what he believes in, like his friends or his family. And I doubt that Ichigo will only depend on his Hollow-form or just his bankai. I believe that Ichigo and his friends won't be satisfy with their current level of power/skill. Reaching that stage will not come without a price to pay, and the price is hardwork and determination, something that Ichigo have a lot of.

nell
February 28, 2007, 03:05 PM
It is true that he has only one attack for his shikai and bankai. His speed seems like not an important advantage since Grimmjaw (probably other Espadas, too) also matches his speed. But I do think that this lack of power supplies the space for Ichigo getting much more stronger. He still has a long way to be strong, in fact he has just started to use his powers, learnt to use bankai and his hollow, but he needs to improve both of them. He is not a match for Grimmjaw and upper villains in his current form but he will be in time.

ami_neko
February 28, 2007, 03:12 PM
I agree with nell. Ichigo hasn't had his bankai for very long at all. He has bankai, but he hasn't come close to mastering it yet. He may discover new abilities or attacks once he trains with it more.

Just look at the Hollow Ichigo fights. Ichigo nearly loses twice because he hasn't gotten to the point where he's thinking creatively about how to use Zangetsu.

But I do get a little tired of hearing Ichigo talked up like he's the hottest thing to ever hit Soul Society. Ichigo loses all the time. He just learns quickly and has a lot of resolve.

Jacky Lungs
March 01, 2007, 02:40 AM
We all know where he got his power from and know he's pretty much ignorant about his powers and what to do with them. He just bumbles about and that's how he's learnt pretty much. He hates to train so he's pretty lazy to about his power and doesn't care as long as he can win.

He really needs a life threatening loss where he is forced to focus more instead of just bumbling into and out of fights.

Grimmjaw better hand Ichigo's ass to him

bax
March 01, 2007, 03:44 AM
I agree with nell. Ichigo hasn't had his bankai for very long at all. He has bankai, but he hasn't come close to mastering it yet. He may discover new abilities or attacks once he trains with it more.


Well, like Byakuya said, it took years to master Bankai the normal way. But the method Ichigo used was just days. Well, although the end products maybe the same, but the experience gained from it is different. Just view it like this: there is a thick line between studying hard & score well for exam and just cheating to get a well score (in terms of the effort, I mean).

And in this case, I don't think Ichigo is overrated at all. Yes, he has the talent of becoming one of the most powerful character (as expected from a Shounen). But he is still learning how to use his powers. Even right now, I don't think he can fight the Espadas efficiently, judging from his performance against Dorudouni.

Silhouette
March 01, 2007, 05:47 AM
There are three things that make Ichigo cool: his incredible rieatsu, old man Zangetsu and the fact he is a visored.

As bax said above, KT doesn't let Ichigo win...he's latest battle were either incomplete or lost...may be with the exception for the last one.

Ichigo's awesomeness is in is potential which even Aizen has recognized that.

Makiyura
March 05, 2007, 11:55 PM
dude Ichigo's potential is off the scales, even the characters in the series stated that is his most dangerous ability, over a short amount of time or a bit longer, there wont be much he cant do!

u might say that Naruto's potential is huge, but is it on level with Ichigo's, not really!

why do u think Aizen is so interested in him, just not for his potential, but his potential to be a weapon to harness to defeat any opponent! GG!

Richo
March 06, 2007, 05:46 AM
ichigo isnt overrated he loses alot but the thing that makes him so cool that he learns so fast, he is an genius in adaptability he can learn anything in a very short amount of time (reminds me of Gundam X).
Ichigo does learn at such fast rate due some help though as without that specefic help (urahara teaching him to achieve shikai, yoruichi learning him bankai and the vaizards learning him to control his hollow). the thing that bothers me alot that ichigo does learn something but never bothers to master it and thinks by achieving it he masterd it. this fact doesnt make him overrated.

Wehklagen
March 09, 2007, 03:49 AM
If ichigo is fighting with his Bankai like his Hollow did he would be awesome.
Shooting getsuga tenchu like crazy to distract the enemy and then attacking from behind. For his Hollow using getsuga tenchu was like an ordinary attack

mugen
May 24, 2007, 08:11 PM
he is ..
I mean not even Ichigo in bankai could damage an unreleased Grimmjow
let alone defeat him...
wtf does his bankai do?
how come Toshiro could damage Luppi ...beat him even... unreleased btw
and Ichigo not even make Grimmjow release his zanpaktou with his strongest move...
I think that Titie does some .....

Koen
May 25, 2007, 05:18 AM
Is ichigo overrated? Well ichigo los against renji and byakuya in his first fight. Ichigo lost against yammi and was about to be killed, ichigo lost against grimmie, ichigo lost against ulquiorra - so did he always win? It seems not, but a point is that ichigo always gets stronger and stronger and easily defeats his ennemies for a second time

yanniv
May 27, 2007, 03:18 AM
I can't see Ichigo as being overrated. He has lost pretty much every fight since the Soul Society Arc. The only fight he has won was against the Privaron Espada. That really doesn't count in my opinion, but hey it's something.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 09:19 AM
Ichigo is pretty over-rated. He's always talking about how he'll "get stronger and protect those around him!", but after bankai and his god-awful skills with Vaizard powers, he really can't continue any further. The real Vaizard need to just become the protaganists and kill the Espada.

mugen
May 27, 2007, 09:33 AM
Ichigo is pretty over-rated. He's always talking about how he'll "get stronger and protect those around him!", but after bankai and his god-awful skills with Vaizard powers, he really can't continue any further. The real Vaizard need to just become the protaganists and kill the Espada.

true not to mention that he never tries to talk to zangetsu ...maybe thats why he doesn't know any moves ...
he only knows one....

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 09:40 AM
And in his inner battle, he basically said that he loves to fight and kill. Not a great moral to have if you're a shonen main character.

gigantor21
May 27, 2007, 09:53 AM
^ Well, having questionable morality is one thing--it can often make for more realistic characters when done right. But I agree that Ichigo shouldn't have to give into his bloodthirsty nature to get stronger, since it'd be hard to consider him the protagonist if he has to be more like Zaraki. It's a really backwards suggestion on Kubo's part.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 11:22 AM
Yeah, so the fighters with morals, like Tousen, are made as villains.

gigantor21
May 27, 2007, 12:03 PM
^ Yeah, that too.

But in Tousen's case, I think that Kubo is making a commentary on the line between morality and inflated self-importance. Aizen seems to have manipulated him into thinking that HE could bring peace where Soul Society failed--so Tousen decided to turn his back on his friends and his entire division to follow through on his own sense of justice. Plus, Tousen is so sure he's right that he thinks killing for his own ideals is justice itself. So you have to wonder if he's absolute morality personified, or simply delusional and arrogant.

Ichigo doesn't have that kind of depth as a character, even though he's the main character. That's why I think he's overrated as a protagonist; he's one of the most unrelatable "good guys" I've ever seen.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 12:10 PM
Yeah, I guess Kubo stole the Absolute Justice/Moral Justice thing from One Piece and is using it with Tousen. But, with Ichigo, at least he's stating that he's fighting to protect.

gigantor21
May 27, 2007, 12:21 PM
^ I have to give him that one, since that's much more believable and realistic than "fighting for absolute justice". But I still don't like him that much.

Impel Down
May 27, 2007, 04:03 PM
I agree. And now he only ever uses his Bankai, which is basically the same as his shikai, but it just "looks cooler".

Richo
May 28, 2007, 07:56 AM
and enhances his speed and reiatsu to the max...

Impel Down
May 28, 2007, 08:05 AM
Speed, yeah. But he rarely ever actually uses it in his fights. The only real change is that Getusga Tenshou can change directions and shapes.

gigantor21
May 28, 2007, 12:26 PM
One thing I've never understood is why Byakuya thought the Tenshou being black is such a big deal. I'd understand if it was stronger than the Shikai version, but Byakuya and Grimmjow said that Tensa Zangetsu only increases Ichigo's speed. And Kubo never addressed the significance of the color again.

On the speed increase, that isn't very useful anymore, since it didn't help with an unreleased Grimmjow. A more hollistic Bankai would go a long way in making Ichigo a better fighter.

Impel Down
May 28, 2007, 01:02 PM
Well, he was probably more shocked because he was in Hollow mode while doing it

gigantor21
May 28, 2007, 01:04 PM
^ Yeah, that's what I would've thought--but he emphasized that the Tenshou was "black". I would've expected him to say that it was stronger or something, especially since Ichigo had the mask on. That's what bothers me about it.

Impel Down
May 28, 2007, 01:09 PM
maybe because black is the Shinigami color?

Richo
May 29, 2007, 04:12 AM
One thing I've never understood is why Byakuya thought the Tenshou being black is such a big deal. I'd understand if it was stronger than the Shikai version, but Byakuya and Grimmjow said that Tensa Zangetsu only increases Ichigo's speed. And Kubo never addressed the significance of the color again.

On the speed increase, that isn't very useful anymore, since it didn't help with an unreleased Grimmjow. A more hollistic Bankai would go a long way in making Ichigo a better fighter.

the thing is with every shinigami (not only ichigo) the color of the reiatsu a shinigami does posses changes with the release of bankai.
ikkaku: normaly he has a golden/yellow color reiatsu, in his bankai its purple/red with black
ichigo: normaly he has a blue/white color reiatsu, in his bankai its black with red (while in hollow form) and white/blue with black in his normal bankai
byakuga: normaly he has a pink/white color reiatsu, in his bankai its more dark like purple
renji: normaly he has a red color reiatsu, in his bankai it turns darkred.

however since ichigo did achieve his vaizard form it seems his reiatsu color changed permanent to red with black.
Byakuya and grimmjow wasnt surprised by his getsuga tenshou only about that ichigo (as shinigami) pulled down a mask on his face witch he did not know about, the 4th espada was also very surprised about this. this means that the arrancar and about all shinigami dont know about the vaizard, so its naturaly that they are very surprised by someone using a hollow mask.


maybe because black is the Shinigami color?
the normal shinigami clothes consist of black, it isnt the prime shinigami color.

Impel Down
May 29, 2007, 09:19 AM
Byakuya's reiatsu turned white when he fought Ichigo in the end, though. But I kinda see what you're saying

omgShikagami
May 29, 2007, 03:44 PM
Hey if you ask me,(which I'm sure everyone has) I believe what people often base their ideas of characters on is the design of the character. What i mean is when you think about about it, the average shonen characters of look and act little wacky and strange (naruto's jumpsuit, luffy stetching, Jio's...everything).

But when it comes to Ichigo, he dresses somewhat cooler normally, when he's in shinigami form, he looks like a cool black samurai, in bankai form he looks like a samurai/neo from the matrix and it's amazing. And his layed back "cool" attitude and which differs from the "shonen" always smiling, go get em' attitude makes him seem a little cooler and different.
I do like that about him, but when it comes to winning and over coming his battles, he's very unreliable now, well since the fight byakuya, he hasn't really overcome anything...So I'm siding with luffy in a fight, but ichigo still looks cooler.

I'm done.

ANBU4U
May 29, 2007, 07:33 PM
I think ichigo is overrated because if u think about it, the author just basically "lets" ichigo win. Ichigo only has one attack. His bankai is even more stupid. He just has super speed and the same attack as his shikai. After all this time, he still didnt find out any new abilities his bankai has.

Also, why does ppl think that ichgo is stronger than characters like naruto and luffy?
Naruto and luffy has the kyubi and gears 2, 3 while ichgo only has his hollow form, which is like sauske's cs-it will eventually consume him if he uses it for too long.

so why do people think ichgo is so strong?

The flash.

Cant hit what you cant catch.

Still, cross-manga comparisons are useless. There's no common marker to judge by.

mugen
May 29, 2007, 07:47 PM
so what #4 could catch up to Ichigo in Bankai form
better put bankai speed wasn't much help for Ichigo even against #6
and even with Bankai and mask Ichigo could not even scratch #4 ....
so I don't see how time would help Ichigo...thing is Tite does let Ichigo win :noworry

RealShinobi
May 29, 2007, 09:13 PM
I think ichigo is overrated because if u think about it, the author just basically "lets" ichigo win. Ichigo only has one attack. His bankai is even more stupid. He just has super speed and the same attack as his shikai. After all this time, he still didnt find out any new abilities his bankai has.

Also, why does ppl think that ichgo is stronger than characters like naruto and luffy?
Naruto and luffy has the kyubi and gears 2, 3 while ichgo only has his hollow form, which is like sauske's cs-it will eventually consume him if he uses it for too long.

so why do people think ichgo is so strong?

You cant compare characters from different,unrelated stories. Their worlds are completely different.

Anyhow, I dont see how Ichigo can be overated. He loses quite a bit, and he hasnt mastered any of his techniques or upgrades. But hes just a likable character.

Impel Down
June 01, 2007, 03:16 PM
I certainly don't like him. And for someone who everyone brags about progressing rapidly, he sure sucks and maintaining his Vaizard form.

mugen
June 01, 2007, 04:04 PM
I certainly don't like him. And for someone who everyone brags about progressing rapidly, he sure sucks and maintaining his Vaizard form.
that is true...
wtf fast progress then his progress just disappears...wtf???

Impel Down
June 01, 2007, 04:14 PM
Yeah, pretty much. It's like he can't progress in things that rule, but he's terrific at crappy things like having the lamest Bankai ever.

gigantor21
June 01, 2007, 10:52 PM
I certainly don't like him. And for someone who everyone brags about progressing rapidly, he sure sucks and maintaining his Vaizard form.

That's what bothers me the most about it. He's not a likeable character, and now he doesn't have the skill or strength to justify his being in the series. The only route left is for Kubo to bail him out with some convenient twists and timely contrivances.

It's really hard to feel for him as a person, or have faith in him as the protagonist.

yanniv
June 02, 2007, 01:37 AM
I think it has more to do with Kubo not wanting a character who could clean house. If Ichigo could walk in HM and kill all the Espada, then what good is it to watch? People want a challenge and some story rather than some hero that can walk on people.

Though I do agree Ichigo is a little too weak and should possibly have more of abilities.

Also one could argue Ichigo always has to fight against really strong people and never gets a break.

Konkun
June 02, 2007, 07:23 AM
Ichigo pretty much cleaned house during SS arc. Now he's on the recieving end in HM. He needs to get the hell out of there without Inoue. But from the latest chapter, it's gonna be tough. I dont think he's over-rated per se, just inexperienced and hasteful.

Impel Down
June 02, 2007, 10:40 AM
Yeah, I was about to say. He just walked through SS before, and won every fight my just believing in himself. And Kubo has really screwed the story up now, because there's plenty of other guys who are stronger than Ichigo now that could just as easily be the protaganists now. I am of course referring to the Vaizard. If this whole manga was about them, I'd love Bleach again.

yanniv
June 02, 2007, 11:41 AM
He didn't walk SS. Every battle was living hell for him and making him have to recover from every fight practically. It wasn't easy cake like you guys say it is.

Impel Down
June 02, 2007, 12:30 PM
Of course he had to recover. He's had to recover after every fight. But unlike with the arrancar and Heudo arc, he isn't defeated (well, except by Aizen) at all during SS.

mugen
June 02, 2007, 01:51 PM
He didn't walk SS. Every battle was living hell for him and making him have to recover from every fight practically. It wasn't easy cake like you guys say it is.
so what he beat them in the end and he even progressed in his skills whether he won or olst even though he beat them...
maybe he can only win against shinigami.....

Impel Down
June 02, 2007, 01:55 PM
An arrancar shouldn't be too different than a shinigami, at least Ulq shouldn't.

Richo
June 02, 2007, 05:00 PM
Of course he had to recover. He's had to recover after every fight. But unlike with the arrancar and Heudo arc, he isn't defeated (well, except by Aizen) at all during SS.

ikkaku fight: ichigo was slightly injured but used the special medicine of ikkaku to stop his wounds from bleeding
renji fight: ichigo was in about the same condition as against 4th espada after fight
kenpachi fight: same as above
byakuga fight: he was severly injured but was still able to stand however barely able to fight.

now we have the latest arc:
privaron espada fight: ichigo was injured but nothing major
4th espada fight: ichigo is near dead just lying there not being able to do anything.

whats so different then in the SS arc beside not having a healer along and only 1 person along?

Arrancar are hollows who achieved shinigami powers? ofcourse they have alot in common with shinigami....

yanniv
June 02, 2007, 06:32 PM
so what he beat them in the end and he even progressed in his skills whether he won or olst even though he beat them...
maybe he can only win against shinigami.....

My point was Ichigo didn't walk over Soul Society, not whether or not he beat them in the end.

mugen
June 02, 2007, 06:46 PM
yes he did :noworry
he basically won against people who should have not :noworry
why can't he do the same against the arrancar
wtf in 3 days he's already captain level and worst of all he still gets beat against arrancar when Toshiro even beat one unreleased when he's not even as strong as ichigo..
wtf Tite

gigantor21
June 02, 2007, 09:32 PM
^ About that, I think that Grimmjow's easy impalement of Luppi showed that he wasn't fit for the Espada, let alone a mid-level rank. The last time I threw that out, someone said it was due to the damage Luppi took from Sennen Hyorou--but then how the fuck did Grimmjow kick Ichigo's ass left and right after he got the same treatment before the mask disappeared? I mean, he wasn't even breathing hard, for fuck's sake; the wounds could've just been makeup, for all they did. So that argument is too inconsistent to work for me.

As to Ichigo getting stronger, the lack of total parallel between this arc and the SS Arc doesn't give Kubo room for much. The main problem is that Ichigo doesn't have any time to train, so the only avenue for a boost involves an inner world visit--and Kubo can't justifiably repeat the Zaraki power-up again. So he'll have to throw in something new, especially after all those fruitless losses and the current standoff with Ulquiorra and Grimmjow.

And besides, a level-up for Ichigo has been long overdo, so Kubo can’t just throw in an uninspired one to keep the story afloat. He has to do a good job of it.

yanniv
June 02, 2007, 11:14 PM
yes he did :noworry
he basically won against people who should have not :noworry
why can't he do the same against the arrancar
wtf in 3 days he's already captain level and worst of all he still gets beat against arrancar when Toshiro even beat one unreleased when he's not even as strong as ichigo..
wtf Tite

Walking over people would be you having no scratches. I'm sorry to say, but Ichigo was near death a couple times in Soul Society. That is not walking over people.

Also, you compare Toshiro's opponents to Ichigo's opponents. Big difference. Toshiro fights Gillian trash while Ichigo fights some of the strongest Arrancar yet.

mugen
June 02, 2007, 11:19 PM
Toshiro fought #6 Luppi released btw
and so what near death :rofl
how is that different from other manga? why can't he beat arrancar?
why is for 200 chapter Ichigo has fast growth then it just stops..
it doesn't make sense...
thats stupid ..being talented then just losing it ....

yanniv
June 03, 2007, 02:39 AM
Toshiro fought #6 Luppi released btw
and so what near death :rofl
how is that different from other manga? why can't he beat arrancar?
why is for 200 chapter Ichigo has fast growth then it just stops..
it doesn't make sense...
thats stupid ..being talented then just losing it ....

Luppi was a filler character for Grimmjow. The guy was horrible. Reminds me like the 9th who died to even a more pathetic Rukia.

Ichigo has lost to some of the strongest characters in Bleach. I don't see Toshiro going up against Grimmjow or Ulquiorra.

Give Ichigo time. He will become stronger and we will see results. He is the main hero you know. Besides, it could be in the next few chapters that we see an improved Ichigo.

IgnorantSage
June 03, 2007, 07:41 AM
I'm sorry but I stopped reading the thread after two pages.

If you ask me, Ichigo is either overrated or he's just damn inconsistent. I think that's all I have to say for now.

Impel Down
June 03, 2007, 07:46 AM
Yeah, the fact that he sucks at Vaizard-ing is pretty inconsistant, I agree. And he acts like a jerk so much...it makes it seem like Chad has the best morals out of everyone in the entire series.

gigantor21
June 03, 2007, 10:46 AM
^ Chad DOES have the most sensible morals in the series. The main reason he's my favorite character is because he seems like a much better protagonist than Ichigo has ever been.

As to his Vaizard mask, I think the time limit thing is either a short-sighted plot device or a ruse by Kubo. Though we'll probably never know for sure, I hope it's the second one, because more time with the mask isn't going to do anything for Ichigo at this point. If the amount of available Hollow powers increased with the amount of time you could use them, then it'd make more sense--but Kubo never specified that. And I think it would've been much cooler and better for the story that way.

Impel Down
June 03, 2007, 03:25 PM
The reason for the time limit is probably so he can't stomp his major enemies anymore. But, in the end, for WW preparation, he'll probably get a total shinigami and Vaizard crash-course. For his final battles, I expect he'll know how to wear his mask for days, he'll be firing Ceros and Balas like crazy, and he'll know all manner of kidou.

Naelyan
June 04, 2007, 09:26 PM
The answer to that is simple in fact, ichigo is just the principal character and everything that happens is just in the plot, it's not about letting win, letting lose, it's about where the author wants to lead his story, so yes, ichigo is definitely going to be the stronger badass in the story at the end, that's for sure. So for 200 chapters or so, ichigo was discovering his own shinigami powers, his shikai, how to use it, then bankai... that seemed a fast progression cause, well it was, but mostly cause he was starting from nothing at all....then come his hollow powers, and for some reason he can't manage to handle them correctly... cause there's more to it than just a sudden stop in his progression, this shouldn't be so difficult, every other vizards could maintain their mask for quite a period of time right at the beginning, but after 1 whole month of training, it can be said that ichigo achieved nothing at all, since 11 sec mean nothing at all against espadas. In my opinion it's all link to ichigo not being able to end a fight by killing his opponent, like his inner-kenpachi or later dordonni told him. I think that's why he can't connect with his hollow power, instead of going for a kill, he only makes supeficial wounds to ko his opponent.

Also, I don't think ichigo's stronger than naruto or luffy at all, i think their strenght comparable, so I think they could fight on par.... that'd make a good crossover...

gigantor21
June 05, 2007, 06:57 AM
^ Eh, I think the cross-series power ratings are too dicey to compare the characters, especially when you throw in One Piece. So I'll just reserve my judgements on that.

And that's a very intriguing theory--it'd be a very nice way of tying things together, since the bloodthirsty nature of the Hollow is something that Ichigo has never been willing to tap into. I definitely agree that his not fighting to kill is what holds him back, since the very nature of the battle calls for it. He's not fighting Shinigami anymore.

Once he does resolve himself to kill his enemies, something's going to die inside him--but he'll probably get much stronger. Kubo has the opportunity to make him a much more compelling character with this, so I hope he addresses it soon.

Naelyan
June 05, 2007, 11:38 AM
^ Eh, I think the cross-series power ratings are too dicey to compare the characters, especially when you throw in One Piece. So I'll just reserve my judgements on that.

Well, I guess that's true........ but I can still dream....

Impel Down
June 05, 2007, 03:05 PM
Well, most of the characters don't "go in for the kill", but they're still extremely powerful. Ishida held off against that fat shinigami and Chirchiu. Chad didn't kill the afro guy either, but he's still really powerful. Then again, they both went all out in their Espada fights. But Ichigo did too against Ulquiorra, but he still couldn't connect.

Naelyan
June 05, 2007, 08:47 PM
Well, I don't mean that to be powerful you gotta go for the kill, I just mean that might be the key for ichigo to connect with his hollow powers, since already two character gave a hint that it is what ichigo is still lacking to become more powerful. Maybe not wanting to kill at all cost, like when ishida and chad didn't kill their opponent because they didn't feel that was necessary anymore after defeating them, but at least be willing to if necessary... and against espada level, that's most likely gonna be necessary.

Impel Down
June 06, 2007, 03:20 PM
Chad too has hollow powers, doesn't he? He seems to be able to connect quite well, but he doesn't kill either. Hmm, with Ichigo's mask, can he just keep putting it back on as many times as we wants after it falls off?

Naelyan
June 06, 2007, 03:43 PM
It's true chad has hollow power, even though we don't know why yet, but the situation's quite different since it's never been showed that he actually has a hollow inside him, and he didn't had to fight for his power like ichigo did... so ichigo had to become ruthless in order to become strong enough to suppress his inner hollow, that's been the trigger that allowed him to gain control of his power... but since then, he didn't use that part of him that is ruthless, maybe cause he's afraid of where it might lead him, or maybe he doesn't even realise it... might also be his hollow that's holding back on him cause right now ichigo can't seem to once again find that determination to fully call out to his hollow power...
And it's seems there's a period of time after 11 sec where ichigo can't bring back his mask... I don't know for how long, but it must be quite a long time, since we never saw ichigo bringing it back after it broke on it's own...

Impel Down
June 06, 2007, 04:40 PM
Against Ulquiorra, he put it right back on, and during Endurence training he had to keep putting it back on, right? But for how long, I wonder? And he didn't really have it on for very long against Ulquiorra, although the Cero could have blown it off.

Naelyan
June 06, 2007, 04:47 PM
Yes, and in fact, if you read that same chapter, ichigo himself take his mask off after firing that getsuga... then he quickly put it back when ulquiorra fire a cero at him, using the last sec left he had of his previous utilisation, his mask breaking on itself as stated by ulquiorra... As for his training, we never see him put in on twice in a same sequence, and there's no telling how much time might have pass between each training sequence...

gigantor21
June 06, 2007, 06:54 PM
^ That's why I wish Kubo hadn't done that nonsense with making the training period so short. It only leaves room for quick-fix power ups, which is the very last thing the story needs right now. I still think he either should've gave them 6 months to a year and did a timeskip, or had effective training methods for everyone (Orihime included) in the time he gave them to train.

I don't get why he pigeoned-holed the options like that, because the legitimacy of Ichigo's growth will be hurt the most. It shouldn't be like that when he's the main character.

Impel Down
June 06, 2007, 08:29 PM
If he did a time-skip, then the Winter War would have already happened and that would be that. Plus, how much of a Shippuden rip-off would a timeskip be, eh? Kubo's got a little bit of dignity in him.

gigantor21
June 06, 2007, 09:51 PM
^ Eh...it's not like we can avoid one anyway. There's no way Kubo is going to be able to focus on everyone consistently after they get back--there's going to be a jump to the invasion, or at least the day of/night before it.

And I wasn't really thinking along the lines of a total restructuring after an extended break, like Shippuden. Rather, I'd have expected Kubo to show everyone's progress on both sides, along with putting in other arcs before the war actually happened (such as this one). It'd free up time to go into the backstory and motivations of Urahara and co, as well as developing the Espada and Aizen himself, while giving everyone on SS's side a viable chance to grow legitimately.

Looking at it that way, I guess it's not really accurate to call it a timeskip, because I wouldn't want Kubo to just skip that period of time.

Impel Down
June 07, 2007, 05:17 PM
Well, WHEN YOU PUT IT THAT WAY! But the way they're slowing developing the Espada, it's just like with the captains, and I've got no problem with that. And maybe characters like Kisuke and co. are SUPPOSED to be rapped in mystery?

Naelyan
June 07, 2007, 06:47 PM
Well I think some time-skip may be very interesting sometimes, plus there's still around 5 months before the winter war, so that might be possible... but for ichigo's hollow power, I think there's much more meaning behind his inability to use it than more training could resolve... sure, in 5 months he might be able to keep his hollow mask on for a few second longer, but I think tite kubo as something else in mind... thought for some other character like chad, ishida and renji, training in order to master the power they already have might be the only way for them to get stronger right now, since I don't think we'll see them getting any new upgrades any time soon, especially chad...

Impel Down
June 07, 2007, 07:06 PM
Chad will probably just train to make his current forms stronger and get more used to them, Ishida doesn't really seem like he needs training anymore, Renji just needs to be able to do more with his Bankai, and Rukia will probably learn Bankai or something. Plus, in a timeskip, the Vaizard will probably come back and actually help fight Aizen and the Espada.

LongShot
June 07, 2007, 08:47 PM
well..
Chad is nothing but a ? till now...know that his powers r somehow like the hollows ones doesnt allow us to define a limit to then

Ishida Ryuuken*Uryuu's father* said "Uryuu has a lot to learn before master the Quincys technique"...or something like that...and I, as a fan of the character, hope for some "1 wing angel power" again

Renji....that I let to his fans find something because I've no idea =~~

Naelyan
June 07, 2007, 09:03 PM
Well, that's mostly what I meant, chad got an upload of his power after his training with renji, then just after a second one during his fight, so I don't think it's gonna evolve anymore for quite some time, meaning he now needs to master those new powers... as for ishida, I was also refering to what his father said, so again, training... the same goes for renji, he now got bankai, so the only way for him to get stronger right now is to master it's use... also, I also think rukia will get bankai, so an other time-skip might be a way to let all of it happen... that's possible if both side make no further moves before the winter war

Impel Down
June 08, 2007, 11:55 AM
Well, I'm not saying Chad should evolve again, but he should figure out how to use his latest powers, and kick ass with them as well. Ishida needs to be more like he was in SS, badass-wise. His fight against Chircuu was just pitiful up until he used the Seele. But yeah, I imagine everyone will get stronger AGAIN as the Winter War starts up.

Richo
June 08, 2007, 12:11 PM
Well, that's mostly what I meant, chad got an upload of his power after his training with renji, then just after a second one during his fight, so I don't think it's gonna evolve anymore for quite some time, meaning he now needs to master those new powers... as for ishida, I was also refering to what his father said, so again, training... the same goes for renji, he now got bankai, so the only way for him to get stronger right now is to master it's use... also, I also think rukia will get bankai, so an other time-skip might be a way to let all of it happen... that's possible if both side make no further moves before the winter war

i do think after they go out of HM they continue training for the winterwar and get a timeskip of a few months or just like they did now showing some training witch doesnt show much more then we already know just to fill up stuff. the winterwar training will basicly mean they all will master their just obtained powers. although i am still wondering what SS their response would be to Ichigo becoming of a vaizard, cause asfar we know right now only urahara, yourichi, inoue know about he is able use hollow powers (rukia does know of the hollow existence but doesnt know what ichigo did with it or how he solved the matter)

Impel Down
June 08, 2007, 12:15 PM
Well, it's not like any of them know that Ichigo has hollow powers! I mean, he gained them in the basement of a guy's house who SS hates, and then trained them in an abandoned warehouse with a bunch of people who also hate SS, and then used them by himself against supa-strong arrancar who don't even understand what he's doing.

Richo
June 08, 2007, 12:30 PM
well what you say is already known and everyone who follows the manga does know about it...
the basement was sealed with barriers a shinigami cant just penetrate. the vaizard do hate the shinigami but that isnt even the real point as its hatred because the shinigami hates the vaizard, nor did you even answers 1% of what i was wondering...

ttxdragon
June 08, 2007, 12:34 PM
HELLO IN HERE! IMPORTANT NOTICE


please note that if you don't keep this thread on-topic, the offtopic posts _will_ be deleted.

this thread is about ichigo being overrated in comparison to other mangas heros and NOT about ichigo in HM and wtfh SS thinks about his vaizard powers.


Get a grip people, lately the Bleach section starts to become a big pile of off-topic rubbish.

Take this as a kind of last warning, because following off-topic posts in ANY thread will be removed without the mercy that we displayed until now.

mugen
June 08, 2007, 04:07 PM
well then he's about the same as Naruto or worse..
but I think they have the same amount of moves :rofl

Zeikku
June 08, 2007, 07:07 PM
His moves might be limited but his reiatsu is rather strong and and he does have that hollow so I guess that sort of makes up for the fact that he only knows two moves and doesn't know any kidou.

Naelyan
June 08, 2007, 07:26 PM
I agree, ichigo never was a kido-type fighter to begin with, much in the same way than those from the 11th division, who only use their own fighting ability rather than techniques.

Also ichigo is quite a different character from naruto, naruto being a screw up with little skill that gain strength and recognition through sheer determination, and ichigo being much of a natural genius fighter of humongous potential and pure strength.